Ranger/Assassin offensive proc imbalance + more.

[Al]

<DIV> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#cccccc>I would like to start ofF this post by saying I don’t want any class nerfed, I just want my class fixed. I enjoy my class (60 assassin) for the most part at the moment, but there are still definitely some problems we need looked at and I will point some things out that I would like fixed that would greatly contribute to our DPS. </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ff0000>1) Offensive proc imbalance due to 7 sec delay bows + 30% chance rangers have.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#cccccc>Our offensive proc is 10% on all melee (except bow) attacks; ranger is 30% on all bow attacks (which is 85% of there CAs). Parsing multiple raid mob encounters thru the last week it has become painfully obvious how much our offensive proc lacks in comparison to the ranger counterpart. I have 3 rangers in my guild so I compare between them, this isn’t the result of just any one person. On average, ranger’s offensive proc does 4 times the damage of my offensive proc, both being adept 3. When I get home from work I will post a parse, which also showcases the amount of poison damage they do (even when using the same poison like in this case) thanks to the trusty proc formula... Every single raid fight a ranger top 2 dps skills is #1 there poison, #2 there offensive proc, its not fair the way the proc formula current works in regards to bow CAs.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#cccccc>What I propose, make assassins offensive proc 20-30% on all melee (except bow) to even it out a little bit. We will never be close even with a 20-30% chance to proc since we all know the proc formula is (wep delay/ 3.0) x % of proc which heavily favors 7 second delay long bows but it will at least make our proc be a meaningful part of our DPS, much like it is for our Ranger counter parts. </FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#cccccc><FONT color=#ff0000>2) Fix the ~90º arc on our two AE AND increase the distance on our DD AE.</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#cccccc>Right now, the positional requirements of our AE are absurd. Thank you for shortening the timer which was hugely needed, but the arc at which they hit mobs make them less than stellar compared to other classes AE. Neither of our AEs (Murderer's Assault & Massacre) has more than a ~90 degree arc at which targets needed to be in for them to be hit. Ranger’s storm of arrows hits them all whether it is in front, side, or back of them as long as they are close to them and does insane damage... If you want to keep the current arc at which they hit mobs make both of our AEs a lot more powerful as it’s only hitting half the encounter usually with the way it is now.</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#cccccc size=3> ----</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#cccccc size=3>Other than those two things I am happy with my class being a raiding assassin. If you could please look into these I’m sure a lot of assassins would be quite pleased. Thanks for your time and keep it constructive.</FONT></P></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Links for parse of a lvl 60 ranger (sakir) and me (YOU on parse</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>) both all ad3/mast1 with same poison against tremblar for fun.  </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text><A href="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4945/1a2le.jpg" target=_blank>http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4945/1a2le.jpg</A></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text><A href="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6871/2b6rr.jpg" target=_blank>http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6871/2b6rr.jpg</A></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text><A href="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8373/3c7of.jpg" target=_blank>http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8373/3c7of.jpg</A></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Notice <FONT color=#ff0000>sakirs poison does 37000 dmg</FONT> by itself, quick shot which is<FONT color=#ff0000> his offensive</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> proc does near 17000 dmg</FONT>. Now lets look at myself in this parse. My poison does 24,000 dmg and <FONT color=#66cc00>my offensive proc does... 4000 dmg</FONT> to his 17000, more than 4x mine. That simply isnt right and I urge our offensive proc to be changed with a high % so it is at least somewhat comparable. </SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>These are right along the lines that I see everyday when raiding T6 content, except his poison damage is usually far greater than the difference we had in this parse.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Alza on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 PM</span>

[ke'la]

IMO All Non-magical Melee AoEs should hit every Target in a 180deg Arc infront of "Caster" as your usually Sweeping your arm from one side of your body to the other. I exclude Monks and other Magical AoEs as the animations show spinning to create the damage(simmalar CA animations should have the same effect) If you spin then 360 if you Swing then 180 I have never seen someone sweep a weopon in a 90deg arc infront of them save on a DD attack.

[A]

<P>No offense to the OP as I am sure your concerns are very real to you and Im sure other assassins.  But please dont use rangers as a "See how we are not as good as them" type comparison.  Rangers have already seen a sharp reduction in our offensive stance proc damage due to the whining on these boards about our DPS.  IMHO SOE has got rangers absolutely right as to their role and their dps.  I have no objections to other dps classes being brought up to par with rangers at all but please let us be.  Even though you say you dont want us nerfed, and maybe you truely dont, even bringing rangers up in threads about what you think is wrong with your class can have that effect anyway.  SOE seems prone to bringing classes down to par instead of raiseing them up.  2cp.</P> <P> </P> <P>Tyler Trueshot</P> <P>51 Ranger of Unrest</P> <P>60 Woodworker</P> <P> </P>

[Al]

<DIV>I'm not asking for rangers to be nerfed, im making a comparison across two classes which are very much alike. I want my offensive stance to do as much damage as theres and I will be happy, that is all. </DIV>

[Amise]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Aaz wrote:<p>No offense to the OP as I am sure your concerns are very real to you and Im sure other assassins.  But please dont use rangers as a "See how we are not as good as them" type comparison.  Rangers have already seen a sharp reduction in our offensive stance proc damage due to the whining on these boards about our DPS.  IMHO SOE has got rangers absolutely right as to their role and their dps.  I have no objections to other dps classes being brought up to par with rangers at all but please let us be.  Even though you say you dont want us nerfed, and maybe you truely dont, even bringing rangers up in threads about what you think is wrong with your class can have that effect anyway.  SOE seems prone to bringing classes down to par instead of raiseing them up.  2cp.</p> <p>Tyler Trueshot</p> <p>51 Ranger of Unrest</p> <p>60 Woodworker</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> I don't remember reading any post from any assassin asking for rangers to be nerfed.  As most of us do, I think ranger DPS is right where it should be.   Assassin DPS, however, is not.  What we'd like to see happens is that assassin DPS be lifted so that it is on par with rangers, NOT the other way round. Comparisons to rangers are appropriate  because both classes are predators, and are intended to fulfil basically the same role (albeit in slightly different ways). </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Amise on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:46 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<P>Please go back to your parser and add up all the damage done by the Monk or Bruiser you put Apply Poison on.  You are missing a good chunk of DPS by making a comparison without that included.</P> <P>For the AE's remember that Storm of Arrows has a three minute recast.  That is why it's damage is greater then the Assassin's AE.  Storm also had it's area of effect reduced recently and mobs need to be huddled close together to all get hit.  Base numbers for Rangers two AE's with around 230 Str are:</P> <P>Storm of Arrows (encounter AE) - 1100-1900 damage, 3 minute recast</P> <P>Natural Selection (out of encounter AE) - 650-1050 damage, 1 minute recast  (must be in stealth to use)</P> <P> </P>

[Gorhauth]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Aaz wrote:<p>Rangers have already seen a sharp reduction in our offensive stance proc damage due to the whining on these boards about our DPS.  </p><hr></blockquote>The best part about this post is that the ranger offensive stance proc damage now matches the assassin offensive stance proc damage.  I think that statement right there speaks tons about how much help assassins need (but leave the rangers alone while giving that help - they don't need to be lowered to assassin's levels).</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorhauth on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:49 AM</span>

[silentpsycho]

<blockquote><hr>Gorhauth wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Aaz wrote:<p>Rangers have already seen a sharp reduction in our offensive stance proc damage due to the whining on these boards about our DPS.  </p><hr></blockquote>The best part about this post is that the ranger offensive stance proc damage now matches the assassin offensive stance proc damage.  I think that statement right there speaks tons about how much help assassins need (but leave the rangers alone while giving that help - they don't need to be lowered to assassin's levels).</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorhauth on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:49 AM</span><hr></blockquote>I completely agree.Here's a crazy thought - what if the proc rate calculation were changed to a straight up % per swing - so if I had a proc/poison that is supposed to proc 10% of the time, each swing a roll of 100 is done and if it's 90 or higher, it procs. I understand this is not how it currently works, and it's based on some 3 second average to (presumably) optimize and reduce the number of server side calculations necessary to compute overall damage. This is probably a necessary evil, but it does give slower weapons an unfair advantage WRT proc damage, intentional or not. There has to be some way to compute this more accurately without grinding the servers to a halt for fast weapons.Dyre - 50 Assasin of Oasis (and long-time software engineer)

[Al]

<DIV>Crychtonn, </DIV> <DIV>Both of our AEs require stealth, and the distance on our AE is shorter than storm of arrows. Our DD AE is on a 1 minute timer, our DOT AE being on a 30 sec timer. Our DOT AE has a 7.5m range and our DD AE has a VERY lame 5m range, storm of Arrows has a 10m range and is nondirectional. I think its safe to say any assassin would give up one of our AEs for your 3m timer non directional greater distance AE, after all you guys did get an assassinate. </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I should also mention in those parses and all T6 raid content sakir uses a vicious sai and a fabled round shield (with 2 procs) for the extra procs he gets from both, thats how overpowered the proc formula is at the moment, he hardly ever melees.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Alza on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:00 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<DIV>If it's the round Shield of Striking it actually has three proc's.  But only one is offensive (the DoT) the other two only go off if hit by a mob.  But that's beside the point :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looked up your two AE's to compare them.  Massacre and Natural Instincts are near matchs.  My master 1 of Instincts does almost the exact same damage as the Massacre master 1 (652 - 1087).  Massacre does require you to face your targets.  But it's not like you'd ever be able to stealth and cast Instincts while running from the mobs.  The cast time would never allow you to pull that off.  Both are just initial attacks when solo'ing and used the same in group or raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Murderer's Assault at adept 1 lists damage off 300-501 plus a 91 DoT every 2 sec.  It lists no positional requirements other then stealth and hits target all around you.  It also has only a 30 second recast and a 1 second cast time.  So on initial damage it is much less then Storm but over time it does significantly more damage.  I understand you'd prefer a higher damage skill with a long recast but overall the two skills are not out of balance.  I wish you luck in your effort to convince the Dev's to change this skill to a higher DD with a longer recast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS - you still need to add the damage caused by your Apply Poison skill to your total damage output for a fair comparison.  I'm in a raid guild and seen how much damage that skill can create when put on a Monk or Bruiser.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Al]

<DIV>Sorry you are right about murderer's assault hitting all nearby, I wrote this while at work so was trying to go off the top of my head, but anyways.. I no longer have the parse available or I would tell you but I do remember on MOTM our bruiser had it on him and it did 15,000 dmg for him out of a total of 117.000. However, I hardly ever group with a class in a raid setting that I can cast it on since I am either in a DPS group full of scouts OR I am in the MT grp in which case I put it on the MT which doesnt do a great amount of dmg due to him wielding a 1H weapon. Typically farming mobs for eyes in silent city it maybe does 2K an encounter for whoever I put it on, and the dmg it adds in exp groups is next to nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leave Murderous Assault alone except increase range to 10m to match storm of arrows, make Massacre 7.5m range, and increase our offensive proc and I would be happy. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Alza on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:12 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<DIV>Your guild needs to find and make ways of getting you into groups with a Bruiser or Monk.  Your missing out on alot of damage not taking advantage of Applied Poison.  And Silent City is one of the better places to use it with all the large groups of mobs they can AE through.  If you still can't get in with a Brawler type and aren't in the MT group get the tank type in your group to do duel wielding.  Applied Poison is one of those skills I see people not taking advantage of and it's a shame.  It can be a great DPS booster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jeff240]

<DIV>This is just getting stupid.  Because the grass appears greener over here, doesn't mean it is.  </DIV> <DIV>Rangers, as said, had their proc damage lowered to Assassins.  Good change imo.  </DIV> <DIV>But now some people are complaining and wanting a "simple" solution that would COMPLETELY screw a ranger. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, proc % by swing?  Please.  With a 1second swing DW weapon, 10% proc would give you 70% chance at a proc on autoattack.  My bow on auto?  10% every 7 seconds.  That's a poorly thought out post, so I won't go further.   There is an imbalance with bow procs, and I'll get to that right after the next point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, complaining that our offense stance procs more and needs to be reduced is also closeminded and not thought through.  This is the bow delay issue brought up above, but is there for a reason.  Assassins - every single attack you do has a chance to proc (minus your 3 ranged, which is rarely used because you lose so many autoattack hits and proc chances moving out to do minimal damage ranged).   Rangers - only our bowshots proc.  I know, I know.  We use the bow 90% of the time.  But.. solo - we don't have any offense procs once the mob comes to melee range.  I've spent the past 3 levels in the epic room - a place where I can't get to ranged distance safely.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This percieved imbalance is due to the fact that rangers can't use their proc every fight.  Or at all soloing once the mob comes in close.  And, once I burn through the bow CAs, I have 20-30 seconds worth of autoattack ranged... 3-4 shots.  Or I can move in and do crummy melee damage with no stance procs.  In 30 seconds melee, with 1sec weapons.. assassins get 60 hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The poison proc "imbalance" was nicely covered.  Rangers can't apply poison to anyone, but that Monk or Bruiser gets a solid dps increase solely due to the assassin, and if parser's were smarter, your dps would be so far over a ranger's it's not funny.  Just like enchanters complaining about low dps, even though their 40% group haste is responsible for hundreds of dps a group wouldnt' have without them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could you guys think of others before whining based on poor perception? </DIV>

[Al]

<DIV>You obviouslty have no idea how much our offensive proc sucks, it is useless in soloing (you will proc more dmg in the bow attacks you get off before they are in melee range than a assassin will the whole fight), almost useless in raiding. Apply poison is completely useless in soloing (your nest trap works when soloing), almost useless in exp grps, does not add THAT much dmg despite what is being said when applied to a monk/bruiser in a raid setting and certainly does not make up for the difference in offensive proc dmg between the two classes. I also never stated to nerf the rangers proc % or damage, just to bring the assassins % up and fix our AE distance. Believe me its nice seeing rangers do good damage now, however I dont like how easy it is for them to due to the jacked up proc formula while I have to rely on all my CAs which cost me power.</DIV>

[A]

I apologize if Assassins took my post as saying I think you are saying rangers should be nerfed.  I WANT assassins brought UP to ranger dps.  No question about it. I feel rangers are where they should be and our assassin cousins should be right there with us.  What I was trying to say is that SOE has a long standing habit of reducing a classes power, ranger, instead of bumping another one up, assassins.   And a post where one class says look at what they can do that I can not  typically leads to that exact thing.  This is what I would hate to see happen.  I do hope you guys get balance but I hope that balance isnt at the price of ranger power reduction.

[Gorhauth]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jeff240sx wrote: <div> </div> <div>Could you guys think of others before whining based on poor perception? </div><hr></blockquote>Nobody is whining except the ranger who thought it was a nerf call, and now you.  I simply pointed out what I thought was funny in the ranger complaining the proc got the hell nerfed out of it when it was brought to the damage that the assassin proc always did.</span><div></div>

[Jeff240]

<DIV>And what about rangers that want to be in the top 100 highest server melee hits?  Can't and won't happen.  Why must assassins get everything?  Big hits and dps that is above that of a ranger.  And don't say that you're not even close.. I run parses in group, and assassins are trading off with me for first place, depending on whose CA are up.  If the parse shows your apply poison as your dps, you would be top dps in every group.  Complaining that you guys can't proc?  Me autoattacking a ^^ with poison.. I couldn't type "460" fast enough every time I saw the poison numbers rise up.  And you're right, I don't know about the assassin's offense stance.  That's why I'm not comparing it to anything else.  You don't have a clue how a ranger's stance works and affects us in tight spaces and solo - heck - even how our bow fails us, and we do less dps melee than the tanking pally/sk.  But you see it working in a group under the right circumstances and get up in arms.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why am I in this?  I'd like to see a well thought-out post by someone who understands that bringing your proc % up to ours is so unbalanced when we're in a bad location to shoot.  Someone who understands the limitations and benefits of a class, and understands why we get one skill and you get another.  Someone who understands what does and doesn't show in a parse, and knows that parses are a good way to see the dps difference in your spell upgrade or weapon change or buff, but is a crummy tool to compare one class to another.  And - if you're using a parser, you should have a readout of your attacks and the number of procs.. and that's a more important tool to use than straight dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your class is in the top 1-2 dps in a group, it's certainly not broken.</DIV> <DIV>Bring better proof than gut feelings and implications that Rangers need a nerfing, and flawed parses.  </DIV>

[Jeff240]

<DIV>Nobody is whining except the ranger who thought it was a nerf call, and now you.  I simply pointed out what I thought was funny in the ranger complaining the proc got the hell nerfed out of it when it was brought to the damage that the assassin proc always did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree fully with the proc damage reduction - there was no reason for it to be higher.  But, asking for such crazy changes would be so overpowering it's not funny.  Just trying to get some intelligence into this complain-a-thon.</DIV>

[Gorhauth]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Jeff240sx wrote: <div> </div> <div>I agree fully with the proc damage reduction - there was no reason for it to be higher.  But, asking for such crazy changes would be so overpowering it's not funny.  Just trying to get some intelligence into this complain-a-thon.</div><hr></blockquote>Agree totally, which is why I didn't even bother adressing the OP.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeff240sx wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is just getting stupid.  Because the grass appears greener over here, doesn't mean it is. </DIV> <DIV>Rangers, as said, had their proc damage lowered to Assassins.  Good change imo. </DIV> <DIV>But now some people are complaining and wanting a "simple" solution that would COMPLETELY screw a ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, proc % by swing?  Please.  With a 1second swing DW weapon, 10% proc would give you 70% chance at a proc on autoattack.  My bow on auto?  10% every 7 seconds.  That's a poorly thought out post, so I won't go further.   There is an imbalance with bow procs, and I'll get to that right after the next point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, complaining that our offense stance procs more and needs to be reduced is also closeminded and not thought through.  This is the bow delay issue brought up above, but is there for a reason.  Assassins - every single attack you do has a chance to proc (minus your 3 ranged, which is rarely used because you lose so many autoattack hits and proc chances moving out to do minimal damage ranged).   Rangers - only our bowshots proc.  I know, I know.  We use the bow 90% of the time.  But.. solo - we don't have any offense procs once the mob comes to melee range.  I've spent the past 3 levels in the epic room - a place where I can't get to ranged distance safely. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This percieved imbalance is due to the fact that rangers can't use their proc every fight.  Or at all soloing once the mob comes in close.  And, once I burn through the bow CAs, I have 20-30 seconds worth of autoattack ranged... 3-4 shots.  Or I can move in and do crummy melee damage with no stance procs.  In 30 seconds melee, with 1sec weapons.. assassins get 60 hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The poison proc "imbalance" was nicely covered.  Rangers can't apply poison to anyone, but that Monk or Bruiser gets a solid dps increase solely due to the assassin, and if parser's were smarter, your dps would be so far over a ranger's it's not funny.  Just like enchanters complaining about low dps, even though their 40% group haste is responsible for hundreds of dps a group wouldnt' have without them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could you guys think of others before whining based on poor perception? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>ROFLMAO you obviously have no idea about proc % do you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if they were both 30% chance the ranger stance would still proc far, far more since it has a 7.0 delay.</DIV> <DIV>The longer the delay the more procs you will get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you have it backwards. You seem to think that the faster the weapon the more procs you will see when it is infact the opposite. The longer the delay the more procs you will see as CA dont take into account the weapon delay but still use the weapons certain chance to proc</DIV>

[Al]

<DIV>This is pretty simple, and if you think 20-30% proc on all melee except bow is overpowered do the math.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(wep delay/ 3.0 sec) x proc %</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Okay lets do some math shall we. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With a leafblade 2.1 sec delay i have a 7% chance of procing off my CAs or AA with the way my current offensive proc is, best case scenario (unfortunately, i cant always use 2.1 delay weps like you can your bow). (2.1 / 3.0) x 10% = 7%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers with there 30% offensive proc have a 70% of procing off every bow attack. (7 / 3) x 30% = 70%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now lets say I got a 30% upgrade to my offensive proc, I would have a 21% chance to proc. (2.1 / 3.0) x 30% = 21%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmmm which one is overpowered here, you tell me. You guys are digging your own hole. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If need be they can reduce the dmg of our proc I dont really care as long as it does 3x the dmg as it does now total. I could see it getting overpowered if I had a good amount of haste and just AAed the entire time. Thats why I listed 20-30% :p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Alza on <SPAN class=date_text>12-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:32 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Alza on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:37 PM</span>

[Styk]

<P>I find it funny that apply poison automatically goes to a brawler on raids..... people tend to forget that berserkers duelwield as well, and after many parses on raids that guildies ran i out dps both brawlers types ( i had apply poison and so did they ) and you want to know why? rampage and open wounds ..... also if you use a massive dly weapon ( 3.8 ) it procs almost every other swing....</P> <P>remember brawlers aren't the only class who can utilize apply poison effectively </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Styker on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:38 PM</span>

[Al]

<P>I cast it on zerkers when they are in my grp, they are more likely to be in my grp than a bruiser due to there haste/dps proc as well as there huge STR buff, <3 zerkers. </P> <P>Anyways, heres a T6 raid parse from tonight for you all. This is against the 1st encounter in Fountain of Life, Captain Graul Ana[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e. YOU is me, sakir is 60 ranger again...</P> <P><A href="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6333/4b9qd.jpg" target=_blank>http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6333/4b9qd.jpg</A></P> <P><A href="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6521/5b1oe.jpg" target=_blank>http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6521/5b1oe.jpg</A></P> <P><A href="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/824/6b5gk.jpg" target=_blank>http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/824/6b5gk.jpg</A></P> <P>Yay my offensive proc did a whole 600 dmg out of 55,000~!!!!!! Meanwhile our rangers offensive proc did 10,000 dmg out of 55,000. His poison did 21,000 dmg, mine did 5000! This is both of us going all out btw. I like how more than 38% of his dps came from poison, and 18% of it came from his offensive proc. Meanwhile my proc did 1% of my damage, and pois did 9%! Gotta love that formula I posted above. </P> <P>Note: I made this post while under the influence of alcohol, k thx. </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Alza on <span class=date_text>12-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:10 AM</span>

[Tarryn]

<DIV>Am I reading that first parse wrong, or did that ranger do 119584dmg to your 110400dmg--a difference of like 8%?  That doesn't seem like a earthshattering problem, to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't change even just the melee proc in isolation--every change must be done with consideration for all the other factors going into the damage output.  Just for example, you put out about 15000 more autoattack damage than the ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, his overall DPS came in at 927 compared to your 869, so if this fight is at all representative assassins do need a little bit of buffage.  But if that parse is typical, you guys aren't nearly as bad off as the posts I've seen have been implying.  Nothing more than a little bump needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As equivalent pure offense classes, our damage output should certainly be closely comparable--but I'd hate to see any kneejerk fixes.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tarryn on <span class=date_text>12-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 AM</span>

[Tarryn]

<P>OK, in that second parse the ranger only beat you by like 1k dmg and you actually out-DPSed him by 45dps.  Where is the problem here?</P> <P>You're focusing on proc differences, but the fact is that the only figure that matters is the <EM>total</EM> damage over time.  If you're comparable there, you're golden.  Examining the proc differences in isolation is fallacious--it would be like me griping that my melee CAs don't deal nearly as much damage as yours.  (Of course they don't, because that damage is made up elsewhere.)</P> <P>Perhaps I'm missing your point?</P>

[Kaan]

<P>-----Rant and other stuff ahead, reader discretion advised-----</P> <P>First off, is damage all you can think about?  Is the amount of damage so important that you have to parse every hit you and your group mates do JUST so you can have the highest number?  To put it simply, if you're unhappy with your class choice, play another.  I play a level 45 Troubador, my DPS is FAR lower then either ranger OR assasin, do you hear me complaining?  Heck no!  Why...well simply..when I get in a group and that group goes..."OMG!  I'm DPSing better now"  And the wizard's spells hit for more damage this and that...and all the extras...Plus, my little 300pt damaging spells and hits (I have a DPS of approximantly 118-145, varying..sometimes higher...sometimes much lower).  Now....</P> <P>To make this simple...if you want higher DPS then play a zerker, then you get to wear heavier armor...or better yet, play a bruiser..or play something else.  And don't say that you're happy with your character, because obviously you're not, if you were you would not be complaining at all about how your character DPSes.  Its very simple, give it up...A ranger out DPSes you, you say, the rangers points out that their bows only come in handy when they can get range.  So...you stand infront of a mob and beat it up....they stand back and pelt it with arrows, now...any product on your weapon will product faster at any rate, bascially what the forumular is doing is compensating for your faster speed...giving a fair chance to the longer delay bow, to product equally.  Now if you're taking this as an imbalance issue with your weapon, you're mistaken.  If the formular was much different then any DPSer would out product everyone else (I agree, this should be the way it is...whats the point in playing a DPSer, quicker attacks, faster damage...more chance to product).  But then you'd have people complaing because they couldn't do that and the ebon imbued two-handed sword they just bought won't product as much as my ebon dual weild sabre.  </P> <P>Now, back to the bow issue, Me...I can kill a mob in a matter of seconds...at close range...I have a bow, and one attack for a bow.  The main ability of the ranger IS their bow, so of course they are going to do better and we all know that bows do more damage anyway.  Now...figure this.  You're swinging away with your weapons...whatever that may be....you hit, for example purposes 6 times before the ranger shoots his bow.  You just had 6 chances to product whatever product you may have.  The ranger just got one.  If thats not clear then figure this....the forumular just got calculated for you 6 times over the rangers one time, of course his longer delay weapon is going to have a better chance, this is just common sense.......or do you want to be god?   Now, this ranger is sitting here...thump........thump.....thump.....Nice steady stream of arrows while the assassin is wailing on the thing like a mad tornado in a trailer park.  So...where is the imbalance?</P> <P> </P> <P>Ohhhh...I forgot, your stuff doesn't do as much damage....every time I see the highest melee hit on a server, its norm an assassin {Edit:  I originally said ranger, by mistake}...so...damage is cleared up.</P> <P>You don't want rangers nerfed, only assassins brought up to the level of rangers....come on...You're smart people...you know for a fact anytime you do this, SOE is not going to bring anyone up, they are going to nerf another class to balance the game.  Easiest way to tick people off, or get back at a friend who made you mad..."Well, my troubador can't DPS like a bruiser, I think is is unfair"  WAM!  the bruiser gets nerfed and now my wish comes true (Just like in old D&D...becareful with the wish spell, because the DM can interperate what you asked for how he likes)....so...you want your assassin to be better...guess what, it won't get better...the other class will get worse.</P> <P>Now, your AE...*shakes his head*  I'm not going to comment because I think its seriously just a baby complaint..."Oh!  Mommy he got a better toy then me!  I want a better toy!  Waaaaaahhh!"  </P> <P>This is simple, look at wht your character brings to a group, use your head to make him as efficent as possible (Instead of whinning to SOE to make him better so you don't have to do as much work......god, they've already made the game easy enough).  Or...stop saying you love your class so much, when obviously you don't...and play another class....Try the Troubador!  I love my class....or better yet...group with one, you'll get the DPS that you so desire.</P> <P>Oh...and on this god forsaken raiding issue..."My character can't do this in a raid, he's not as good as this in a raid"  Stop...just stop..play the game and have fun for the love all that is holy and sacred in this world.  I bet all these people that whine over this game also whine when someone jumps their peice in checkers going "that was an illegal move!  You can't double jump!  I never agreed that double jumps were acceptable in my game!"  Frankly all the whinning, complaining and down right b**ching over the game because one class isn't as powerful as another class...is getting REAL old....ever think that the whinners are the ones that give the rest of the MMORPGS players a bad name?</P> <P>Oh, and on another side rant...STOP CALLING CHARACTERS TOONS!  I don't play bugs bunny, thank you very much.</P> <P>------End Rant and everything else------</P> <DIV>//EDIT:  Sorry, the very short side rant had nothing to do with this post, just built up frustration since my days of DAoC.  Sorry to bring that Rant up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kaanha on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:13 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Kaanha on <span class=date_text>12-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:57 AM</span>

[FrankBu]

So totally true, Kaanha. I have never, and will never, understand this obsession with numbers.... <div></div>

[Rambling Diatri]

<P> I imagine you'll be seeing some resolution to this in the near future. I ran across Blackguard multiple times night in the Sinking Sands. He was running around as a 60 assassin capping greys left and right. My guess was that he could have only been testing the assassin proc system, seeing as everything was grey.</P> <P> Thats one of the most amusing parts of being on the Test server, actually paying witness to the head designer goin' out and testing one of the big gripes of the week. No other info to add for you, just figured you might like to know the big guy is payin' attention the issue.</P> <P> </P>

[Al]

<DIV>DPS is not all I care about, I care that 40+% of there damage is coming from poison to offensive procs where as 90% of mine is coming from CAs all which require POWER. Given a longer fight I will be out of mana, they will still be going. Unlike your troub, I am a pure DPS class although I do have somewhat of a bit utility compared to before revamp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>High Hit on the top100 list is just fluff, comes down to a lot of luck on the RNG, I could care less if I had the highest hit or a ranger did. My high hits obviously dont make me beat a ranger by much and snipe shot hits for just as much. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I SHOULD out dps a ranger on a single target raid encounter which has no AE, because they WILL beat me on all AE encounters AND all mobs which require jousting. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW a troub was in my group for that 2nd parse I posted, and me and sakir were in the same grp with the same buffs.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Alza on <span class=date_text>12-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<P>Let me get this straight.  This entire thread and your entire rant is that your mad that Ranger generate a large portion of their DPS from proc's and poisons and Assassins get theirs from hitting the mob more often ?? </P> <P>How the hell can you be complaining about your DPS when both your examples show yourself and the Ranger right next to each other in total damage done.  Hell if you bothered to add (like you were asked to) the parser for the group member you put Applied Poison on you most likely did More damage then the Ranger.  Yet your mad about how the damage is generated ??!?!?</P> <P>And then to claim that a Ranger will always out DPS you on AE mobs.  Are you insane and not read any of the information I posted comparing the two classes AE's.  Sure in raid situation where there is down time between pulls that gives the Ranger's AE's time to refresh he'll win.  But in any XP situation with constant pulls the Assassin will Always be able to AE while the Ranger can only do it once out of every 2-3 pulls.  You know what include raid area's in that also with all the group mobs in Silent City.  In there once every Three minutes the Ranger will out DPS the Assassin.  All the in between pulls the Assassin win.  Why, because your AE's are up and Usable.</P> <P>Not everything about this game is raiding and trying to make comparison strictly on raid situation is just stupid.  Skill balancing covers solo, group and raid situations.  And there is no possible way to make it balance across them all.</P> <P> </P>

[Al]

<DIV>I ask you to kindly read my above statement, rangers do same/more dps on single targets WHILE using less power due to procs, that is my gripe. I dont really care that it works out like that, I would just like my offensive proc be a meaningful part of my DPS like the ranger. Look at the parse, my offensive proc did 600 dmg, do you think that is intended or should be like that?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it funny you dont address the joust issue at all in the raid setting because you know that it is true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also about the apply poison, we didnt have any bruisers/zerkers in raid with us or in my grp so my poison went on our troub which did close to 0 dmg since he is mostly spell based except AA. Sorry but you know as well as I you cant always have the perfect group setup as there are only a limited number of certain classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your right that classes cant be totally balanced across soloing-raiding, but ive experienced all of them and a ranger does just as good in a exp grp, solo's far far better (ever hear of rangers soloing tables/roost? I have), and has no drawback in the raid setting, jousting or not. </DIV>

[Crychtonn]

<P>Dev's please increase Alza's offensive proc to 30% and decrease damage from skills and melee attacks by 30%.  Sorry but that's the only way your going to get it.  If you want more proc and poison damage you better be damm willing to give up your CA and Melee damage to get it.</P> <P>I didn't bother with joust mobs because they effect half the classes in the game.  The only way to make those classes on par with classes that can range outside the AE range would make them godly in solo or group situations.</P> <P>So you didn't have anyone to take advantage of your Apply Poison that run.  What about all the runs you do have someone.  Based on your own parses and your 15K estimate you said that bruiser in MotM did you out damage Ranger's.  Maybe I should be starting threads about how it's unfair Assassin's can buff a group member to create 15K damage and it cost them zero power.  Yes that's totally unbalanced and must be changed.</P> <P>I don't know maybe next time we raid Silent City for Eye's I'll run a bunch of parse's and start a thread about how unfair it is Assassin's out damage me 2 out 3 pulls.  Because they have an AE with a 30 sec recast and get to use it every fight while I have to wait 3 minutes.  Let alone the Apply Poison they put on that Zerker using rampage all the time.  Yep that sounds like a great thread that should be started.</P> <P>Can a Ranger solo roost or table, yes.  Of course it will take them an hour plus to do it and cost 30-50g in poisons and repairs to pull it off.  It is not even close to being worth doing either solo other then to say you pulled it off.</P> <DIV>Screw it this is pointless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Al]

<DIV>That was 15,000 dmg over a long fight (1 1/2grp) with a lot of AE, not quite accurate. To prove to you how UBER apply poison is according to you I will show you an assload of parses tonight of the person its on!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didnt say I wanted more poison damage, you are totally turning this into something it isnt. I said please increase my offensive proc %, and increase range on one of my AEs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Neither did I say I wanted to be on par with a ranger on jousting encounter, but should they really do the same as me when not jousting, and near 2x as good when they are?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm the one providing evidence here, so if you think im wrong and you're right please do run some parses and show us all, I urge you.</DIV>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alza wrote:<BR> <DIV>That was 15,000 dmg over a long fight (1 1/2grp) with a lot of AE, not quite accurate. To prove to you how UBER apply poison is according to you I will show you an assload of parses tonight of the person its on!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didnt say I wanted more poison damage, you are totally turning this into something it isnt. I said please increase my offensive proc %, and increase range on one of my AEs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Neither did I say I wanted to be on par with a ranger on jousting encounter, but should they really do the same as me when not jousting, and near 2x as good when they are?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm the one providing evidence here, so if you think im wrong and you're right please do run some parses and show us all, I urge you.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No one has to provide additional parses...yours work just fine.</P> <P>You want your offensive proc % increased...fine.  Then also state that you want the damage of all of your CAs decreased proportionally.  You keep avoiding saying this explicitly.  Your parses show that you and the ranger did equivalent damage.  And that was <STRONG><EM><U>with</U></EM></STRONG> the ranger getting his all-so-powerful bow procs.  So any increase to your proc should be offset to decreases in your CA damage.  Seems simple to me.  Now you go ahead and say it...</P> <P> </P>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Alza wrote:</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Notice <FONT color=#ff0000>sakirs poison does 37000 dmg</FONT> by itself, quick shot which is<FONT color=#ff0000> his offensive</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> proc does near 17000 dmg</FONT>. Now lets look at myself in this parse. My poison does 24,000 dmg and <FONT color=#66cc00>my offensive proc does... 4000 dmg</FONT> to his 17000, more than 4x mine. That simply isnt right and I urge our offensive proc to be changed with a high % so it is at least somewhat comparable. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>These are right along the lines that I see everyday when raiding T6 content, except his poison damage is usually far greater than the difference we had in this parse.</SPAN></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ya, your right you never mentioned the difference in poison damage at all.</P> <P> </P> <P>Exactly what did you plan to give up to get the additional 13000 poison and 13000 offensive proc damage.  That's an extra 26000 you want and that'd put you 17000 ahead of the ranger in your first example.  And that's ignoring any damage done by applied posion which you believe does little or nothing.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Ladyla]

<DIV>     Looks to me your true complaint is that in order for an assassin to stay on par with ranger dps, he/she has to spend more power. This being a side effect of the fact that rangers proc more often. Well okay, lets examine that from a rangers perspective... in order for a ranger to stay on par with an assassin's dps, we have to spend anywhere from 33-65% more on poisons. If your poison supply runs out, you're still doing a nice portion of your max dps, while a ranger's dps is cut by over a third (according to your own calculations). Also, have you ever had to go and buy 10 stacks of slash/crush arrows because the night's raid schedule is plum full of pierce immune/resistant mobs ? Even if you buy the cheap T5 arrows from npc's, they are still 3.5 gold a stack. Ask any ranger how long it takes to burn thru 10 stacks of arrows... when they finish laughing you'll see my point. It's not like we can just avoid using arrows either, because in order to get the 70% proc rate you compare yourself to, we have to spend arrows on every single one of them.</DIV> <DIV>   </DIV> <DIV>     You're upset because assassins cost more power to play at the top of their game... get a chanter or bard in your group and your set for just about any mob in the game...</DIV> <DIV>      I'm upset (not really, but to make the point) because rangers cost more MONEY to play at the top of their game... and until they give chanters and bards an "increase in-combat bank replenishment" spell, we cant really do much about it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Denox-- 60 Ranger of Everfrost</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Take the money you're saving on poisons and buy some power regen potions }8-P</DIV>

[Tarryn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ladylake wrote:<BR> <DIV>until they give chanters and bards an "increase in-combat bank replenishment" spell, <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Hah!  Classic! :smileyvery-happy:<BR>

[PIexor]

<DIV>After LU 18 the ranger has another advantage, you can probaly not reach those dps numbers again without getting agro as an assassin, since the assassin hate transfer can't be used on fluff pets anymore, so it is only usefull if you are in the mt group or want to make your guildies angry by giving them 26% of your agro and probaly getting them killed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins are back using only there lvl 17 or so predator hate reducer skill for a whoping 16 or so % at adept 3 vs the 47% hate reducer of the ranger on raids.....oh joy (Swashbuckler vs Brigand hate transfer/reducer has the same problem I think)</DIV>

[dparker7]

Well, considering the VAST majority of your arrows are used in CAs, their quality is immaterial.  So wise up, buy some iron hunting arrows from your local ghetto merchant.  Yes, you spend a ton more on poison, but you can also farm the live long day much more effectively - its a tradeoff.

[Ladyla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dparker713 wrote:<BR>Well, considering the VAST majority of your arrows are used in CAs, their quality is immaterial.  So wise up, buy some iron hunting arrows from your local ghetto merchant.  Yes, you spend a ton more on poison, but you can also farm the live long day much more effectively - its a tradeoff. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>  The OP set a standard here that includes playing both clases in top form, you're not gonna get that with your tin arrows. Please make sure you have read and understand what you're commenting on before you start telling other people to "wise-up". Sure if i wanted to save some money i could use crap arrows and suffer my dps a bit. in fact, lets just cut out poisons too, that'd save money as well... oh wait, if we cut out poisons, then all the rangers would be in here crying about how much more dps the assassins can do. The simple fact is this: Rangers rely (mostly) on poisons and arrows for their dps, wich cost money. Assassins rely (mostly) on CA's for their dps, which cost power. Theres your true tradeoff.</P> <P>--Denox-- 60 Ranger of Everfrost</P>

[scivias]

But zerkers dont net nearly as much hits per second as brawlers do. And that's all that matters when it comes to apply poison<div></div>

[scivias]

<div></div>Actually a rather valid point.. it's not only shifting around the weight of where the damage is coming from, it's also a funny sidenote on soloing ability, as roc damage is 'fixed', while CA damage is tied to your stats. I have yet so see any assassin / ranger that even comes remotely close to str420 with lvl 60. In other words.. the more damage you net with procs, poison included, the easier it gets to solo without juggling str für damage, agi for power and defense, sta für your hitpoints. I mean it's not like we can do it mage style.. using the same attribute for mana and damage increase, easily reaching the stat cap by ourselves anyway, and killing mobs from a distance without getting hit.EDIT: Sorry for the missing quotes, seems the new firebird has some issues with the forum system used here.<p>Message Edited by scivias on <span class=date_text>12-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 AM</span>

[dparker7]

<DIV>So, you think since you pay more for your DPS, then you should do more damage as long as you keep spending money?  As for running out of poison, that would be entirely the fault of the ranger as each toon can a very large amount of slots in addition to a quiver that can hold up to 20 stacks of arrows.  And the change in arrow type has a minimal effect on DPS while it has a large effect on cost.  If you choose to be silly and insist on using top arrows, thats your perrogative, but that doesnt make it a valid arguement because the difference between the 2 classes doesnt magically disappear if you start to use tin. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that they've finally addressed a broken skill and listened atleast partially about our timers, they decide to marginalize assassins and swashbucklers main deagro.  Meanwhile, the massive deagro rangers have always had and has always been a higher gross percentage has been left unmodified.  Now the effective gap between the 2 classes will get significantly greater in most raid situations. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS - int boost procs, so they arent a fixed amount of damage.</DIV>

[snipes]

<P>The problem is any time you even mention another class you will have tons of them flocking to a post trying to rip you apart for the sole reason that they are scared of getting nerfed. So they try to do anything they can to make you look bad to make themselves come out on top. No one said nerf this class nerf that class , but other people come in and plant it in there ( like the posts that say sure raise that 30 % but you better lower this 30% )  Also if you pride youself on having the biggest hit and being on a stupid list of a video game then I laugh. I don't know about you but I play the game for fun and to play with friends,  what am I supposed to do go into work and tell my boss I deserve a raise because I got the highest hit on the server in a game !!!!  People just need to stop hijacking threads. If the concerns  our of any matter the devs will look into them and sort things out maybe make a change, maybe not. They don't need  tons of other people coming in and attking the creditablity of the posters.</P> <P>Personally I think they should have some kind of forum set up for each class in game that you have to be lvl 50-60 to even post in. If it was implemented in game then you would have to have that class. I would wager that more problems would come up for each class and get a better response as far as being looked into and fixed. As it is now I feel bad for the devs that have to sort through all the garabage to find legit concerns.</P> <P> As for the parses well on a big named fight yea I see rngs and assassins doing close to the same dmg. Now parse some other fights  where the assassin doesnt have to use his 15 min recast and 5 min recast skill to get there ( also to be completely fair make sure rng doesn't use skills that have a huge timer like that).  </P> <P> </P> <P>Hell all the OP said  hed like to see was assassin offensive proc % increased some so it actually goes off once in a while. Most group fights you won't even see it go off.  Also he mentioned the AE attacks being a problem. Dmg wise I find them fine, however the massacre line has a  nasty habit of missing mobs ( if its not pretty much dead straight in front of you it misses, it seems most the  time). The arc does need some work possibly even improving it to 180 degrees like someone else posted.</P> <P> </P> <P>Daedan</P> <P>60 assassin unrest</P>

[scivias]

<div></div>PS - int boost procs, so they arent a fixed amount of damage.Not when we are talking about poison and item procs.. you can be a top genius and your proc doesn't change. And get real.. we are talking about assassins and rangers here, e.g. hardly any spellbound procs at all .. that means STR-STA-AGI.. and then nothing else for a long time.. not by a laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge margin is int relevant in this matter.<div></div><p>Message Edited by scivias on <span class=date_text>12-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>

[Ladyla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dparker713 wrote:<BR> <DIV>So, you think since you pay more for your DPS, then you should do more damage as long as you keep spending money?  .......</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>   Not at all what i said, i simply stated that it costs us more money for our dps, and it costs assassins more power for theirs. it's a tradeoff. And look at the OP's own parses, the overall damages done from the two classes is comparable. Once again you have twisted my statements to fuel your flame against my post.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dparker713 wrote:<BR> <DIV>..... As for running out of poison, that would be entirely the fault of the ranger as each toon can a very large amount of slots in addition to a quiver that can hold up to 20 stacks of arrows.....<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>   I think you missed my point here, or maybe i didnt accurately convey my point. the point i was trying to make is that while the OP was commenting that a ranger does more poison damage due to a higher proc %, if you were to take poisons out of the OP's parses you would see that rangers would be far lacking in dps when compared to the assassin. this makes our proc rate an important balancing factor in our dps. Like wise, if u were to triple (from 10% - 30% as suggested by the OP) assassin's offencive proc rate, this would indirectly increase your poison proc rate and weapon proc rate as well. factoring all this new damage in would again create an imbalance in the dps of the two classes. And if you want to nit-pick the parses on rangers  usually coming out on top, show me the parses that include apply poison and assassin's mark line triggered by members of your group but a direct result of your being there. add that damage to the overall dps of the assassin and consider that rangers have NO such benefits to offer other group members. All in all the classes look pretty well balanced on dps to me.</P> <P>   As far as the de-agro skills compare, you got me there. It looks to me like they deffinately need to rework your skill in that area. <BR><BR><BR>--Denox-- 60 Ranger of Everfrost</P>

[PIexor]

Apply poison cetainly adds some good dps but exposing mark adds it's damage to the assassin not the person who triggers it.

[Jeff240]

<DIV>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>DPS is not all I care about, I care that 40+% of there damage is coming from poison to offensive procs where as 90% of mine is coming from CAs all which require POWER. Given a longer fight I will be out of mana, they will still be going. Unlike your troub, I am a pure DPS class although I do have somewhat of a bit utility compared to before revamp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>High Hit on the top100 list is just fluff, comes down to a lot of luck on the RNG, I could care less if I had the highest hit or a ranger did. My high hits obviously dont make me beat a ranger by much and snipe shot hits for just as much. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I SHOULD out dps a ranger on a single target raid encounter which has no AE, because they WILL beat me on all AE encounters AND all mobs which require jousting. </DIV> <DIV>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, you are complaining about something stupid.  Last time I looked at my spellbook - there were CAs in there.  CAs that when I afk, or don't click.. won't allow me to magically proc additional damage and poison, as you imply.  Ranger procs require the same use of skills that you insinuate we don't need to use.  The way that minute-long parse shows, your damage is fine, and your class isn't broken.   Please pass it along to the Assassin forum.</DIV> <DIV>Now, I'm sure that we're logical people here - so why are you complaining so loudly?  What do you want?  20k in poison and 10k in offensive procs - bringing your damage to 84,000 and your dps to just above 1300?  Or should we not get that 30k... and be happy with 410dps, roughly half of your current output?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And - you brought up jousting again?  Sure, we don't have to move when jousting.  But... aren't there a few ranged attacks in your hotbar that can be clicked while waiting for that aoe to go off, and while moving in and out of melee range?  You aren't completely useless and throwing hammers at the mobs like some fighter classes.  </DIV> <DIV>You beat the ranger.. you two were probably in the top 3-4 dps on that parse, if not first and second.  Why are you still complaining?</DIV></DIV>

[Jun]

<DIV>i personally dont play a ranger or assassin, so i cant talk for them but i am curious what effects this is going to have on warlock/conjuror/all other proc buff classes as well as the brawler taunt proc line as this could seriously affect aggro issues for the brawler classes</DIV>

[ChevelleXT]

First, there's a shocking amount of Non-55+ Predators posting on this thread ... not to call you uninformed, but all the parsers in the world ( no offense OP I k now you were trying to bring the attention in numbers to the devs ) will never relate to ingame experience. I play an assassin .. I have since I started the game about the time bloodlines came out.  Pre-revamp this class was, uh, BAD.  Since the revamp I'm much happier .. but there is still some definite lacking.  If you want evidence of this .. I'm typically left out of groups in favor of another nuker or a ranger or any other scout and I'm never in the main tank group for my lack of usefullness .. also I'm normally thrown in a group thats 'cannon fodder' on raids.  IE: lower levels and our healers that are told to only watch the MT/MA and if their group starts to drop ignore it. I won't go off on a tangent about how our timers are so long etc.  but I will say that I RARELY see my offensive proc go off.  By this I mean once or twice a fight at most.  If we want to consider what people really spend most of their time doing, it's soloing and 1 grouping rather than raiding.  Yes, in a raid we can nearly measure up to a Ranger or a caster if we are lucky.  By this, I mean timers up - long fight (gives time for oozing wound to actually be worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]) - vulnerable mark and apply poison (if we have a melee DPS that doesn't mind some aggro) having a chance to go off (since that counts to our DPS really). However, in soloing or one group .. we can't compare to a ranger (which is our brother class).  I have to pull out all my tricks on any fight that is even con or higher, and if it's triple arrow I most likely die unless it is green (thankyou 1 stun), but I watch rangers and most definitely wizards/warlocks/conj solo with relative ease.  We are all DPS classes are we not?  Yes this can be very largely contributed to our melee proc as most of our skills (ok all but 4) require ATLEAST 'from behind' with another 3 or 4(?) requiring FROM STEALTH.  I don't see a wizard getting in to place to nuke when soloing using a 2 second stun gap (if we're talking heroic). As for the AEs, I wish we had more (tho I'm sure all scouts do).  I understand we're melee DPS and thus limited but .. honestly .. most encounters raid/group are RARELY single mob.  Unfortunately for us, we only do well on single mobs and then only every 5 - 15 minutes.  The 90^ arc definitely needs some tweaking aswell, I hardly hit the mobs using massacre in the ring events in Poet's .. I stick to using murderous assault for the most part to conserve power. Anyway, to sum up (As its 330am for me and I'm very tired), we are NOT calling for any other class to be nerfed .. we simply want a small increase in our offensive proc.  If you can't give us that, please look into some of our other DPS issues (that really is ALL we are good for honestly!!) such as some of our rank upgrades on skills doing LESS damage, the uselessness of Oozing wound except in named/epic fights, the overkill proc rate with poisons (which I've heard is getting looked in to in LU18 thankyou ..), and other issues like our threat buff not being raid wide or placeable on fluff pet. --Zokushi <div></div>

[Styk]

<DIV>"But zerkers dont net nearly as much hits per second as brawlers do. And that's all that matters when it comes to apply poison"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Huh where did you get this from? Zerkers in a 3-5 min fight will hit alot more then a brawler will with duel wield( number of hits landed ) ....  alas again you forget about rampage and openwounds..... </DIV>

[Feaw]

<DIV>I have a ranger and my daughter has an assassin.   I agree assassins have issues that need to be fixed.   Rangers have some issues too but we can at least do our job for dps for the most part .    We are both preditors and should be comperable to each other.    </DIV>

[Al]

Seems with LU18 assassins got nerfed due to offhand no longer procing poison, and rangers remain where they were, gj SOE. This post was a big waste of my time, thanks for all who added comments, I appreciate them. <div></div>

[judged_one]

Here is what I experienced:4 encounters in AA on saturday with trash mob and 1 namedSame group as Rangers, so all group buff is the same.1st encounter- I used assassinate, deathly blade and Finishing blow(at 5% mob health) Using legendary poison.Result 560ish (Ranger) 450ish(Assassin) 2nd encounter- Only DB is up and used finishing blowREsult 600ish (Ranger) 440ish(Assassin) 3rd encounter- Similar result4th Encounter Vampire with AOE (Jousting)Result 450ish (Ranger) 350ish(Assassin)But you know what is the funniest thing, Swashie and Brigand has similar DPS ranging from 400-500 too !So it is pointless fighting between Ranger and Assassin.Cause we are both nerfed big time recently -Trap and stunning poisonWhy would any raid leader want Ranger or Assassin when you can have a Swashy and Brigand doing similar DPS withmassive debuff. I.E Brigand can debuff 3500 physical mit of mob, which equate to a lot more overall DPS a predator can make up.So Raid balance of classes is a joke, simply put Assassin and Ranger has nothing unique to offer to the raid.SOE need to unnerf our ability so we can contribute to raid. What is so trival if a scout can stun + stfile a raid mob by 4 sec??What is so trivial about cahnter about to mez Raid mob for 10 secStop with the bs about having 20 scouts perma stunning raid mob, or having 20 chanter perma mezzing raid mob.If you think the ability is over powering then increase the resist raid.It is the same as saying having 20 healers healing tank making raid trivial.It is the same as saying having 20 Brigand whacking the mob with auto melee making raid trivial.It is the same as saying timing AoE making raid trivialIf you can organize 20 pred in a raid then more power to your guild.Stop with the lame excuse about balance, when obviously you don't know jack about it. If you don't believe me ask most of the top raiding guild and what class they are looking for.NO BLANKET NERF, it is just a lazy way for you to get away from designing challenging mob.What about putting a reflect on some mob, that will reverse stifle the tank.What about making the mob glow before it does AoE, to reward players that are actually paying attention instead of auto ranging and afkingWhat about making the mob having certain weak spot on mob like the side or the back.What about making the mob weak against certain type of weapon(and I dont mean slashing or piercing) similar to the wymsteel bladeWhat about making a character more immune to certain mob if it has certain armourWhat about making the mob going into stealth and doing its CA on the main tank, so you need see invis etcWhat about start thinking and stop being lazy?

[MystaSkrat]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> scivias wrote:<BR> PS - int boost procs, so they arent a fixed amount of damage.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Not when we are talking about poison and item procs.. you can be a top genius and your proc doesn't change. And get real.. we are talking about assassins and rangers here, e.g. hardly any spellbound procs at all .. that means STR-STA-AGI.. and then nothing else for a long time.. not by a laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge margin is int relevant in this matter.<BR> <P>Message Edited by scivias on <SPAN class=date_text>12-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Inspect a vial of poison, raise your INT with a ring or something, Inspect that same vial of poison, then come back here and tell me INT doesn't affect poison damage<BR></DIV>

[scivias]

Inspect a vial of poison, raise your INT with a ring or something, Inspect that same vial of poison, then come back here and tell me INT doesn't affect poison damageI inspected a vial of poison, I lowered my int by 50, and I tell you it doesn't affect poison damage. And it never did, whenever you got information about poison the damage and debuff values were fixed, they are now, and probably will be for the future.<div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

<P>INT 53 - Adeste's examines at 439 and 72/tic    Gleaming Strike examines at 197 - 366</P> <P> </P> <P>INT 85 - Adeste's examines at 455 and 74/tic    Gleaming Strike examines at 204 - 379</P> <P> </P> <P>You sir, are wrong, and i'd wish you'd stop spreading misinformation :smileyhappy:</P> <p>Message Edited by MystaSkratch on <span class=date_text>12-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:01 PM</span>

[arkkon]

<DIV>Int affects poison damage and procs.  You have to inspect it again to see the damage increase.</DIV> <DIV>Rangers = str / int( for procs)</DIV> <DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is with int affecting procs anyways.  Do you know how few good str/int items there are.</DIV> <DIV>I hate the bard items. flared bracers 20 int / str.  bangle of melodic speed same stats.  they are great items but gdi bard only <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  The bard only gear = what i dream about.</DIV> <DIV>Drape of silent screams = Yes, i love it. we want more.  Boots of many shadows = no.</DIV> <DIV>+ parry on scout gear = <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins in the mt group can spam(tmk) as much as they want without fear of agro.</DIV> <DIV>Assassins have to be in ae range to do their max dps, inreasing the chance of death compared to a ranger.</DIV> <DIV>Assassins proc less than rangers.  Assassins proc rate should be increased or the damage should be increased to put them on par with Rangers.</DIV> <DIV>Or /gasp, create something new for assassins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(ITEMS)</DIV> <DIV>T6 fabled scout weapons suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</DIV> <DIV>No cryptic upgrade sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].(chestguard of the revenant looks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing awesome) /hint for scout gear.  </DIV> <DIV>no t6 fabled bow sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</DIV> <DIV>no t6 fabled dd procs sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</DIV> <DIV>Fulginate makes sad scouts.  Brigandine makes a happy scout.  Enigmatic look = the right way to go.  Many shadows gear = no.  any fulginate gear = no.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers have stream of arrows which "can" greatly increase their dps.  - costs no power</DIV> <DIV>Assassins dont.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate casting snipers shot.  I [Removed for Content] hate it.  5 second casting time sucks me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really dont care as long as the base of ranger and assassin dps is =.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But what every single [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] scout wants is real scout gear.  WE DO NOT WANT AGILITY GEAR BECAUSE IT SUCKS [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] AND EVERYONE HATES AGILITY.   We would like str and int <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  We would like an upgrade to cryptic.  <3 the predator gear, xcept coif of the tracker. 14 agi on that sucks me.</DIV> <DIV>yeah so im off topic <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make poisons not dissapear on deaths and ill love you more.</DIV> <DIV>T6 fabled bow with a dd proc and ill love you completely.</DIV> <DIV>Listen to the assassins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw desert skewer looks like [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</DIV> <DIV>Arazuls dagger = yes</DIV> <DIV>Khanda = eh, i can live with it.</DIV> <DIV>Foremans shank = no , if it doesnt affect epics and it drops from an epic raid, we dislike it, especially when the fear sucks with poisons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and please do something about agility. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is it for? power ? [Removed for Content], avoidance vs raid mobs ? [Removed for Content] orange.  oh wait accuracy.....wtb dexterity pst paying my tiger bear and hawk.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>holy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] rangers want a lvl 60 pet. that was what i was looking forward to the most.  I wanted a panther.  A PANTHER.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[Removed for Content] after rereading this, my post is so unorganized its amazing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pathfinder Sakir Shadow</DIV> <DIV>The Downward Spiral</DIV> <DIV>60 Ranger</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[scivias]

You were right, I was wrong.. I really did that stuff with lowering my int, I just rechecked to see the damage went from 316 to 306 .. must have missed that and thought it had stayed the same.Sorry again.<div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

<DIV>And my point wasnt' to prove you wrong or anything, just to state that INT actually IS a useful stat for us :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Demonskill]

<blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeff240sx wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is just getting stupid.  Because the grass appears greener over here, doesn't mean it is. </DIV> <DIV>Rangers, as said, had their proc damage lowered to Assassins.  Good change imo. </DIV> <DIV>But now some people are complaining and wanting a "simple" solution that would COMPLETELY screw a ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, proc % by swing?  Please.  With a 1second swing DW weapon, 10% proc would give you 70% chance at a proc on autoattack.  My bow on auto?  10% every 7 seconds.  That's a poorly thought out post, so I won't go further.   There is an imbalance with bow procs, and I'll get to that right after the next point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, complaining that our offense stance procs more and needs to be reduced is also closeminded and not thought through.  This is the bow delay issue brought up above, but is there for a reason.  Assassins - every single attack you do has a chance to proc (minus your 3 ranged, which is rarely used because you lose so many autoattack hits and proc chances moving out to do minimal damage ranged).   Rangers - only our bowshots proc.  I know, I know.  We use the bow 90% of the time.  But.. solo - we don't have any offense procs once the mob comes to melee range.  I've spent the past 3 levels in the epic room - a place where I can't get to ranged distance safely. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This percieved imbalance is due to the fact that rangers can't use their proc every fight.  Or at all soloing once the mob comes in close.  And, once I burn through the bow CAs, I have 20-30 seconds worth of autoattack ranged... 3-4 shots.  Or I can move in and do crummy melee damage with no stance procs.  In 30 seconds melee, with 1sec weapons.. assassins get 60 hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The poison proc "imbalance" was nicely covered.  Rangers can't apply poison to anyone, but that Monk or Bruiser gets a solid dps increase solely due to the assassin, and if parser's were smarter, your dps would be so far over a ranger's it's not funny.  Just like enchanters complaining about low dps, even though their 40% group haste is responsible for hundreds of dps a group wouldnt' have without them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could you guys think of others before whining based on poor perception? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>ROFLMAO you obviously have no idea about proc % do you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if they were both 30% chance the ranger stance would still proc far, far more since it has a 7.0 delay.</DIV> <DIV>The longer the delay the more procs you will get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you have it backwards. You seem to think that the faster the weapon the more procs you will see when it is infact the opposite. The longer the delay the more procs you will see as CA dont take into account the weapon delay but still use the weapons certain chance to proc</DIV><hr></blockquote>Sorry to say this, but obviously jeff is a newbie and didn't know the mechanic on how the game combat system works. so just ignore jeff's post and move on

[Demonskill]

<blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<P>Dev's please increase Alza's offensive proc to 30% and decrease damage from skills and melee attacks by 30%.  Sorry but that's the only way your going to get it.  If you want more proc and poison damage you better be damm willing to give up your CA and Melee damage to get it.</P> <P>I didn't bother with joust mobs because they effect half the classes in the game.  The only way to make those classes on par with classes that can range outside the AE range would make them godly in solo or group situations.</P> <P>So you didn't have anyone to take advantage of your Apply Poison that run.  What about all the runs you do have someone.  Based on your own parses and your 15K estimate you said that bruiser in MotM did you out damage Ranger's.  Maybe I should be starting threads about how it's unfair Assassin's can buff a group member to create 15K damage and it cost them zero power.  Yes that's totally unbalanced and must be changed.</P> <P>I don't know maybe next time we raid Silent City for Eye's I'll run a bunch of parse's and start a thread about how unfair it is Assassin's out damage me 2 out 3 pulls.  Because they have an AE with a 30 sec recast and get to use it every fight while I have to wait 3 minutes.  Let alone the Apply Poison they put on that Zerker using rampage all the time.  Yep that sounds like a great thread that should be started.</P> <P>Can a Ranger solo roost or table, yes.  Of course it will take them an hour plus to do it and cost 30-50g in poisons and repairs to pull it off.  It is not even close to being worth doing either solo other then to say you pulled it off.</P> <DIV>Screw it this is pointless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Cry, why would you think apply poison is a great CA? to us it's a crap, avg 150 a proc doesn't make a huge difference if u compare to other mage class proc buff, which is way more dmg than apply poison. Is that the only CA you know that can be cast on assassin? tell you what. Assassin DOES NOT have utility, and apply poison is our only one, and it's not that great at all. You keep pointing out a crappy CA to make it like GOD, tell you what. If DEV want us to give up a CA and give us a DPS boost, i'll take apply poison away. Also, even if we add up our offensive proc DPS + apply poison DPS from other group member, our DPS still couldn't come close to a ranger's DPS. If you don't get what i mean, go play an assassin to level 50 to 60ish, then come back and talk.

[Al]

<DIV>ROFLMAO at aarkon (sakir) :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Al]

<div></div><div>bump <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> this problem still exists and rangers were totally unaffected by the poison nerf when all other scout classes were.</div><p>Message Edited by Alza on <span class="date_text">01-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:16 AM</span></p>

[btennison]

<div></div><p>I've got an idea; lets make all scouts absolutely identical except for name. Give them all exactly the same CAs and abilities and don't let them make any character traits that might actually affect anything (like str to give you 1 extra dps.) Then when they're all "cookie-cutter" identical, maybe the whinning will at least slow down.</p><p>I'm sure the rangers will still whine that "assassins" get 9 letters in their name and we only get 6, and things like that but it should slow it down some.</p><p>Then we can get down to the important whinning like "how come my ratonga isn't as strong as a barbarian"? :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[Skratttt]

<div></div><p>I got an idea......make the formula for calculating procs of CA (not of regular auto atack) use thea Flat delay (i would suggest 2.0) time as the delay value...and not the actual weapon delay</p><p>That would make a bow proc = main hand proc/offhand proc REGARLDESS of weapon....this would make fast weapons viable again</p><p>Would make weapons like RGF (way overpowered cause of 3.8 delay) proc exactly the same as its counterparts of the same tier (staff of the boar 2.2 delay same proc)</p><p>:smileyvery-happy:</p>

[Kai'va Arros]

<blockquote><hr>Alza wrote:<div>I'm not asking for rangers to be nerfed, im making a comparison across two classes which are very much alike. I want my offensive stance to do as much damage as theres and I will be happy, that is all.</div><hr></blockquote>Problem is by making this comparison, in my experience with developers, their solution is usually to nerf. Not bring other classes up to par. So by even mentioning it, you're inadvertently, albiet unintentionally asking for a nerf.