LU17....

[DanielAtchison]

<DIV>LU 17 has been looked over and helped all classes but one. the one class that are supose to be the main tanking class which cant hold aggro as well anymore. Since LU13 guardians have had no help just little nerfs everywhere. is there anything that is going to be done soon or will guardians be a lost class?</DIV>

[Cuz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanielAtchison wrote:<BR> <DIV>LU 17 has been looked over and helped all classes but one. <FONT color=#ff0000>the one class that are supose to be the main tanking class</FONT> which cant hold aggro as well anymore. Since LU13 guardians have had no help just little nerfs everywhere. is there anything that is going to be done soon or will guardians be a lost class?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't know if guards need help or not, if they do, I do hope you guys get it, but you are not meant to be the main tanking class.<BR>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanielAtchison wrote:<BR> <DIV>LU 17 has been looked over and helped all classes but one. <FONT color=#ff0000>the one class that are supose to be the main tanking class</FONT> which cant hold aggro as well anymore. Since LU13 guardians have had no help just little nerfs everywhere. is there anything that is going to be done soon or will guardians be a lost class?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't know if guards need help or not, if they do, I do hope you guys get it, but you are not meant to be the main tanking class.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah SOE has stated that there will be no "one" main tanking class, and that all tanks should tank equally.

[DanielAtchison]

<DIV>ok so if we arent going to be the main tanking class.... you would think they would give us some DPS or some better things..... our taunts are the only things that set us apart most of the time if they dont get resisted.....</DIV>

[Taishi]

Ok I definitely agree that guardians got beat to with the nerf stick. I play one as an alt and hes lvl45 but I have found that I can't do anything solo and that even running away from mobs can mean certain because we have the equivalent avoidance of a tree. We lack any form of dps and our taunts aren't able to keep dps classes from being aggroed half the time. Basically we can't do much of anything without a healer and a dps class. We desparately need some dps or better avoidance/taunts to be worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] or this class will essentially cease to exist as noone really wants to play a class that can't be played right regardless of the skill of the player. /End rant......

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanielAtchison wrote:<BR> <DIV>ok so if we arent going to be the main tanking class.... you would think they would give us some DPS or some better things..... our taunts are the only things that set us apart most of the time if they dont get resisted.....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree, you guys do need a significant boost in the dps department

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanielAtchison wrote:<BR> <DIV>ok so if we arent going to be the main tanking class.... you would think they would give us some DPS or some better things..... our taunts are the only things that set us apart most of the time if they dont get resisted.....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Guardians have the best defensive/hp buff in game. Though I do agree you guys might need a little better dps, I dont think you have nothing special compared to other fighters. In raid, your defensive buffs are much more important than some extra dps (like monk / bruiser can contribute.) There are too many dps classes, but few classes can buff defense like guardians do.<BR>

[DanielAtchison]

Guardians do have the best Defence and HP buffs for fighters.... but how does that help our soloing for 2mins to kill 1 mob ; we have those buffs to be the MT but we have been nerfed so other fighters can tank as well or better than us...... so why not give us some dammn dps or better taunts so we can have a job...... at this rate we will lose all guardians.... i know on befallen there arent many left at all. <div></div>

[JuJut]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanielAtchison wrote:<BR>Guardians do have the best Defence and HP buffs for fighters.... but how does that help our soloing for 2mins to kill 1 mob ; we have those buffs to be the MT but we have been nerfed so other fighters can tank as well or better than us...... so why not give us some dammn dps or better taunts so we can have a job...... at this rate we will lose all guardians.... i know on befallen there arent many left at all. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>There's an interesting thread on main tanking for raids in the monk forum. </P> <P>Are you willing to give up the edge in raids for more soloability?</P> <P>Feel free to respond to this post:</P> <P><STRONG>Well, a brawler with decent gear, potions and the right group can probably reach around 3800 mitigation, if not more. This is (more then) enough for pretty much every yellow con there is, considering avoidance actually works against those. On top of that, monks have probably the best single target hate against mobs they <I>can</I> hit.<BR><BR>However, I'm afraid the way they are now.... most, if not all, orange cons are just out of reach. They pretty much ignore avoidance, they are next to impossible to hit with a melee attack (debuffs/buffs don't really seem to make a difference.. or is it just me?) and they hit HARD. IMO pretty much all orange cons hit so hard atm, that a brawler <I>would</I> get one shot at a certain point. I'm not talking about mobs like Ciriktna where you can have a guardian tank his adds and have a brawler tank Ciriktna himself.... sure that's doable... but a brawler tanking encounters like POF Barakah, Sunchild, Gutrom the Guardian or whatever he's called, from 100% to 0%.... I really doubt it. Maybe someone will prove me wrong in the future (And I really hope s/he will), but until that, I'll consider most orange con x4s impossible for a brawler...<BR><BR>(BTW why do I always get flamed for stating the obvious? Guardian really IS the best tank against majority of all epic encounters with the current game mechanics... I never said I think it should be that way... I never said I like it (I don't)... but,right now, sorry, it's a fact.)</STRONG></P>

[Landiin]

<div></div>Oh so its ok for us to be abouve par on 1% of the game and way below on the other 99%.. Yea that sounds fair..<div></div><p>Message Edited by Landiin on <span class=date_text>11-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:49 AM</span>

[Vicio]

<DIV>You only need 1 Guardian per 24 man raid. Think about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars don't have it as bad although it's still bad. I would like the dps of a fury or something. </DIV>

[DanielAtchison]

there arent going to be any Guardians left if SoE dont do something the problems they are having. even 1 or 2 things just to make a move in 1 direction <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JuJutsu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><STRONG><BR>However, I'm afraid the way they are now.... most, if not all, orange cons are just out of reach. They pretty much ignore avoidance, they are next to impossible to hit with a melee attack (debuffs/buffs don't really seem to make a difference.. or is it just me?) and they hit HARD. IMO pretty much all orange cons hit so hard atm, that a brawler <I>would</I> get one shot at a certain point. I'm not talking about mobs like Ciriktna where you can have a guardian tank his adds and have a brawler tank Ciriktna himself.... sure that's doable... but a brawler tanking encounters like POF Barakah, Sunchild, Gutrom the Guardian or whatever he's called, from 100% to 0%.... I really doubt it. Maybe someone will prove me wrong in the future (And I really hope s/he will), but until that, I'll consider most orange con x4s impossible for a brawler...<BR><BR>(BTW why do I always get flamed for stating the obvious? Guardian really IS the best tank against majority of all epic encounters with the current game mechanics... I never said I think it should be that way... I never said I like it (I don't)... but,right now, sorry, it's a fact.)</STRONG></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The same works for mitigation, orange and higher con mobs ignore mitigation as well. I havent seen one raid boss mob we have beat that is a orange con mob epic x4 since LU13.</P> <P>Ask any tank the difference your damage taken from a mob that is orange then ask him again when he levels once more and the mob becomes Yellow, its the same as it is for avoidance, resists, mitigation, chance to hit etc etc.<BR></P>

[DanielAtchison]

ok ok, so if you want DPS for a group you get a scout or mage class. healer is ofcourse a healer of any type. tank you would want a monk paladin bruiser sk or berserker cuz they can do more dps than guardians and cant keep aggro like alot of people are saying. so this means that guardians dont get as many groups or we are unable to solo or if we try its against greens and blue arrow downs. why are guardians needed now? for raids? how can we get to raid lvl if we cant solo that great or get groups.... <div></div>

[Cidal]

<P>Just an off the cuff idea, but why not split the Warrior class between good and evil, just like the brawler and crusader?  </P> <P>That way, they could take the best of both worlds, the dps for the zerker and the durability of the guardian and combine them into one animal, somewhere in the middle of both.  Of course vary the specifics, just as with monk vs bruiser and pally vs sk.  But eliminating a choice between 2 different warrior types, the "need" to devide dps and durability between two in the same class would be thrown out.</P> <P>Berzerker always came off a bit more evil to me in my opinion then Guardian, so to me it seems like an easy choice as to who gets what affiliation.</P> <P>If they were compressed into one subclass, being split by good/evil you could maintain similar core strengths and abilities, and of course vary the spell lines to reflect the different warrior types.</P>

[argsix]

<DIV>Speaking from the expierence of a raid guild:<BR>I am a lvl 60 defiler and am going to word this responce COMPLETLY from a healers point of view let it be said now that I know very little about any of the tanks actual spells and combat arts, all I know is group makeup and my class.  AGAIN THIS IS ONE HEALERS EXPIERENCE AND OPINIONS:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For raid tanking we have found that Guardian > pally > zerker > SK > monk / bruiser</DIV> <DIV>WHY?</DIV> <DIV>well our SK only recently hit 60 and hasen't geared up so we don't know.  monk / bruiser: despite great gear, great resists to certain mobs, it just seams like their avoidance isn't enough.  Keeping the tank up for 90% of the battle very easily is wonderfull till they get 1shoted and then 23 healers in the raid couldn't keep him alive.</DIV> <DIV>Pally:  LOVE healing pally's.  Amends on me and all my wards on him and he will never loose agro.  Love it.  HOWEVER: They just don't have the mitigation against the hardest hitting mobs.</DIV> <DIV>Guardian: We have worked hard to find strats to keep guardian tanking.  Good gear goes a long way as does group makeup.  Believe me when I say this, we have the best success with our guardian tanking.  Sure it means that we can't load up the reactives and wards before pull due to possible taunt resist, but once the initial pull is done and the fight has stabalized a bit guardians are the best.  They take even damage with very few spikes.  They can use tricks like their hold the line to keep agro on them, and our guild as a whole has learned just how far we can push DPS to keep the agro under controll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would I like to see guardians get some SOE lovin? Absolutly, I would love to see them get less resisted on taunts.  I would love to see them  get some better mitigation buffs.  Is it absolutly needed to keep them from being "useless"? No way.  They are still our main tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AGAIN AT THIS POINT I'D LIKE TO SAY THAT THIS IS ALL BASED ON MY EXPIERENCES IN A RAID GUILD AS A HEALER!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From what I've seen defence means little to nothing in a raid setting.  Everything has to do with the con of the target and some key milestones in a tanks mitigation.  4k is a good one, 4.5k is a HUGE one (ex: champ in clefts, with 4389 mit we needed 5 healers for a x2 raid.  Thats quite a chunk of the raid being healers.  At 45061 mit we only needed 2 and it was EASY.)  We are still working our way up in the DoF content and have yet to break 5k mit but I am assuming that it will be one of the milestones needed to take on orange con's like sunchild (who we met for the first time last night, WOW! that kid can run FAST)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The moral of the story:<BR>Guardians I know it looks like you can't keep up, but believe me there is a demand for you.  If it was SOE's intent or not to have you be the "Raid MT" thats what (again in my opinion) you have become.  I know many guardians choose that class because they want to be the MT and that is great, mission accomplished.  For those who don't raid or don't care... I feal for you, maybe SOE does need to beef up your offence, but from a purly raid viewpoint its not needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the templar who said they want more offence: (anyone else may want to stop reading here as I am about to go on a rant)</DIV> <DIV> BOO-freakin-HOOO  You were the best healers for a long time now stop whining that your broken.  Unless you played for a FULL YEAR as a defiler (THE MOST BROKEN HEALING CLASS) you don't know what bad is.  WAAAAA your DPS sux... SO DOES MINE!  With nearly all adept3's or masters I parse at about 70-80dps.  WAAA our reactives make too much hate SO DO MY WARDS! Actualy I generate MORE hate from my wards... your reactives generate a set amount per attack of the mob, mine can give me the FULL 3k-ish amount on ONE hit.  Waaa waaaa.  Stop crying and realize that its not that you suck, you just arn't the best anymore.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I apologize for my rant.</DIV>

[JuJut]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Landiin wrote:<BR> Oh so its ok for us to be abouve par on 1% of the game and way below on the other 99%.. Yea that sounds fair..<BR> <P>Message Edited by Landiin on <SPAN class=date_text>11-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:49 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So you would be willing to give up your edge in raiding to be more efficient soloing. Anyone else?

[Logical_Knight]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Landiin wrote:<BR> Oh so its ok for us to be abouve par on 1% of the game and way below on the other 99%.. Yea that sounds fair..<BR> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> I don't think anyone is saying your concerns are invalid - they certainly are.  I think what's being suggested is that guardians (and everyone else for that matter) should keep in mind that with any adjustment is going to come a trade-off.  Whatever particular trade-off comes out of any future adjustments may not necessarily be positive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[lilmohi]

As a 54 ranger i have yet to group with a tank that could hold agro while i go max dps with 3 stacking poisons.  My wizard friend has the same problem, only worse since they don't have the agro reduction abilities that i do.  They seriously either need to tune down the taunt resist rate, or make them unresistable altogether.

[argsix]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lilmohi wrote:<BR>As a 54 ranger i have yet to group with a tank that could hold agro while i go max dps with 3 stacking poisons.  My wizard friend has the same problem, only worse since they don't have the agro reduction abilities that i do.  They seriously either need to tune down the taunt resist rate, or make them unresistable altogether. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well I agree taunt resists need a little work, but not for that reason.</DIV> <DIV>Yes you can steal agro if you go all out, but if you could go all out every time what would be the downside?  This game, rightly so, is about finding the right balance for every situation.  Yes sometimes its called for to have you go all out burn.  Like that last 5% of an epic mob, or if that add needs dead NOW.  However if you were able to constantly burn with no consequences (getting agro) what would be the challenge?  n00b's who don't know anything could work their way to the top just by spaming buttons without any real idea of what is going on.  There would be no skill involved!  No fun!</DIV>

[Tro]

<P>I was in PoF last night and we had 3 in our group. Me 52 Guard, 52 Fury and a 50 SK. We were killing the 55 ^^^ tigers.. I noticed that my taunts were getting resisted but not as bad as I thought. Then we decided to try the 55 ^^^ named Deer (Sunstrider?). </P> <P>Was a long fight and wow I could barely land a taunt. Had MD2 up and never lost aggro but I was like "man, you have to be freakin kidding". I can see a slight increase in taunt resists for a named mob yellow to me but I think I got maybe 4 deafens off and a couple AE taunts but not a whole lot more.. For as long as the fight lasted, thats a [Removed for Content] poor taunt success rate.</P> <P>All I can say is MD rocks! By the way.. that named didnt drop a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing.. Is that normal? is he a quest mob? oh well was a fun fight. </P> <P>And whats up with the excessive Stifles/stuns? that's just [Removed for Content] annoying.. I am suprised between the resisted taunts and Stifles/Stuns I did not lose aggro. Thats just insane.. </P> <P>I really think they need to adjust the resist rate and lower it and for the love of god back off on the stuns/stifles.. Please.. </P>

[lilmohi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> argsix wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lilmohi wrote:<BR>As a 54 ranger i have yet to group with a tank that could hold agro while i go max dps with 3 stacking poisons.  My wizard friend has the same problem, only worse since they don't have the agro reduction abilities that i do.  They seriously either need to tune down the taunt resist rate, or make them unresistable altogether. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well I agree taunt resists need a little work, but not for that reason.</DIV> <DIV>Yes you can steal agro if you go all out, but if you could go all out every time what would be the downside?  This game, rightly so, is about finding the right balance for every situation.  Yes sometimes its called for to have you go all out burn.  Like that last 5% of an epic mob, or if that add needs dead NOW.  However if you were able to constantly burn with no consequences (getting agro) what would be the challenge?  n00b's who don't know anything could work their way to the top just by spaming buttons without any real idea of what is going on.  There would be no skill involved!  No fun!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps i misphrased that.  I actually like it that we can't go full dps (agro management is an important challenge aspect of playing a dps class), i was merely pointing out that all the tank classes can have taunt problems.  If a tank gets a few consecutive resists on their taunts the dps classes are pretty much screwed.  However fighting blue con heroics last night occasionally even though the wizard started off with their lowest nuke they would still grab agro because of a series of taunt resist.<BR>

[Landiin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JuJutsu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Landiin wrote:<BR> Oh so its ok for us to be abouve par on 1% of the game and way below on the other 99%.. Yea that sounds fair..<BR> <P>Message Edited by Landiin on <SPAN class=date_text>11-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:49 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So you would be willing to give up your edge in raiding to be more efficient soloing. Anyone else? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would be willing to give up my edge on raiding to be more effective in a group, to be really equal to other fighters. I'm not a solo person, I always group, be it raid, framing or just farting around. I am always OOP while every one else it way abouve half and that is my chief complaint, agro controle runs a close 2nd, dps comes in a lagging 3rd..<BR>

[JuJut]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Landiin wrote:<BR><BR>I would be willing to give up my edge on raiding to be more effective in a group, to be really equal to other fighters. I'm not a solo person, I always group, be it raid, framing or just farting around. I am always OOP while every one else it way abouve half and that is my chief complaint, agro controle runs a close 2nd, dps comes in a lagging 3rd..<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Going out of power is not just a guardian issue, monks go through power like mad. Ditto, having taunts resisted, that's a pita for all fighters. I'm surprised that you're unhappy about groups, most of the complaints from guardians that I see have to do with slow soloing because of lower dps than other fighter subclasses. It's odd that your 2 biggest complaints are the same as mine.<BR>

[DanielAtchison]

<DIV>i wonder if they are looking at this... lol..... there are alot of problems with guardians atm but SoE is trying to downsize Guardians by nerfing us and and not doing anything about us till the numbers die down and quit ornot play our guardians anymore then they will start doing what is needed to bring guardians to par cuz we are far from par to other fighters</DIV>

[Dudd]

<DIV>Im a 56 monk with full legendary gear, while I can tank a heroic mob, there is no way I could tank an epic mob.  In raids when I steal aggro I usually die in 3 hits.  Guardians can still hold group aggro and stay alive longer than any other class.  Yes, monks and zerkers can hold single mob aggro better, but not group aggro.  So, guardians are useful, Id much rather have a group thats got a guardian as a tank, allowing me to go offensive, which increases my haste by roughly 60%.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Duddin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im a 56 monk with full legendary gear, while I can tank a heroic mob, there is no way I could tank an epic mob.  In raids when I steal aggro I usually die in 3 hits.  Guardians can still hold group aggro and stay alive longer than any other class.  Yes, monks and zerkers can hold single mob aggro better, but not group aggro.  So, guardians are useful, Id much rather have a group thats got a guardian as a tank, allowing me to go offensive, which increases my haste by roughly 60%.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You die in 3 hits on raids because :</P> <OL> <LI>You arent MT and raid buffed.</LI> <LI>You arent MT and getting Spam healed by healers.</LI> <LI>You arent in the MT group.</LI></OL> <P>Anyone who takes agro on a raid dies in 3 - 4 hits if they arent Tanks, casters might get one shooted if there lucky :smileyvery-happy:, not just monks.</P>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>argsix wrote:..... <div>To the templar who said they want more offence: (anyone else may want to stop reading here as I am about to go on a rant)</div> <div> BOO-freakin-HOOO  You were the best healers for a long time now stop whining that your broken.  Unless you played for a FULL YEAR as a defiler (THE MOST BROKEN HEALING CLASS) you don't know what bad is.  WAAAAA your DPS sux... SO DOES MINE!  With nearly all adept3's or masters I parse at about 70-80dps.  WAAA our reactives make too much hate SO DO MY WARDS! Actualy I generate MORE hate from my wards... your reactives generate a set amount per attack of the mob, mine can give me the FULL 3k-ish amount on ONE hit.  Waaa waaaa.  Stop crying and realize that its not that you suck, you just arn't the best anymore.  </div> <div> </div> <div>I apologize for my rant.</div><hr></blockquote>Apology not accepted.  Direct your anger at SOE not at other healers that don't like being broke any more then you did.  Totally sucks you were left broken so long.  It is really incomprehensible that anyone wants to see any other class left gimped for any reason.  That said; Templar's heal fine.  Thank goodness for that!  Stop your whining. </span><div></div>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Apology not accepted.  Direct your anger at SOE not at other healers that don't like being broke any more then you did.  Totally sucks you were left broken so long.  It is really incomprehensible that anyone wants to see any other class left gimped for any reason.  That said; Templar's heal fine.  Thank goodness for that!  Stop your whining.<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly. Totally unacceptable that Guardians through buff stacking were the best tanks prior to LU13. That isn't the Guardians fault, it's SOE fault. LU13 was promised to bring equality. It did not. There have been over 100 class changes since LU13 to balance the classes. Guardians are equal or subpar tanks in 99.9% of the game and do maybe 1/3 the DPS and have almost no utility. They gave us area root becasue we complained about loisng agro. Good thing we have area root so the mobs can turn on our friends that are standing closer to them when they are rooted. They gave us a percent chance to have a 'rune' absorb three hits becasue our special ability that absorbs hits like other fighters was about 1/10 as effective as what other get and smashed up our tower shiled that cost monet to repair. Now we are just 3/4 gimped instead of fully gimped.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want to be equal. Nothing more and for darn sure nothing less.</DIV>

[DanielAtchison]

<DIV>i dont know what argsix is going on about, all our defilers that i know say they are better than they were b4. Templars/Inquisitors/Guardians got ripped in the LU13-17 .....SoE wont fix it till the numbers die down in those classes cuz there are to many.</DIV>