Duel wield DPS change = Mage nerf bat

[Mystild]

<DIV>Title says it all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts... brawlers... completely owning up mages (sorcerers and enchanters at least) in DPS from my initial parses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While they got a massive DPS increase, mages get the shaft with a slight increase by being able to wield a symbol in a ranged slot...</DIV>

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>Wizards are not supposed to do massive DPS in this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My opinion - they have no idea what to do with wizards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example: Fiery Convulsions - ?? - this is the DOF expansion version of  protoflame pre-expansion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protoflame for a very long time never worked. I got to level 50 and never used it the entire time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now we have Fiery Convulsions that does 48dmg/tick DOT- why create this spell?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this an evil joke played on the class..either way it is pretty funny spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mystild]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lady Uaelrea wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wizards are not supposed to do massive DPS in this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My opinion - they have no idea what to do with wizards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example: Fiery Convulsions - ?? - this is the DOF expansion version of  protoflame pre-expansion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protoflame for a very long time never worked. I got to level 50 and never used it the entire time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now we have Fiery Convulsions that does 48dmg/tick DOT- why create this spell?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this an evil joke played on the class..either way it is pretty funny spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You're wrong about what Wizards are supposed to do - they're SUPPOSED TO BE tier 1 DPS, right next to warlocks. But they're not. I agree with everything else that you said though. We're worthless.<BR>

[Corasik]

<DIV>What massive melee increase...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yeah, now a dual wielding bruiser, can do as much damage as a bruiser with a Royal Great Flail. This patch balances dual wield damage with two handers. It's not intended to change the balance between melee and mage. So for fighters, there is no really difference overall. We can already get that level of damage with 2hb weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts may be a different matter, as they always use dual wield I think, so they are just getting an upgrade to something they never had before. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eitherway, you may want to make more parses. Fighers only do good 'burst' damage, their power runs out fast, and most of their skills have long recast timers, so they are frequently falling back to nothing more than autoattack damage. So in the first 30 seconds of every fight, a fighter class can do excellent damage, but in a large scale raid fight, their dps is severly limited.</DIV>

[Mystild]

<DIV>Well, let's stick with scouts then, as you are right, fighters DPS is only burst.</DIV>

[Untruth]

<DIV>You could say the same for assasins, their dps is all spent over the course of an instance, and then there is the recast time anywhere between 1 and 5 minutes to wait. Caster spells have significantly lower recast time, like the equivalent of the basic 10s reuse time ability for melees would be about 2-3 seconds for casters. As for bard archtypes, i'm fairly sure that their damage is nothing out of the ordinary. I believe Ranger damage was toned down with the patch as well, although i can't personally comment on this since i don't have one. That leaves Brigade and Swashbuckler, and as far as i know these two were designed to outdamage anything over a course of time.</DIV>

[TheyLi]

<DIV>I think it's hilarious how people think a boost to another class is somehow a nerf to them... here's a clue for you buddy: if your class' damage was not lowered, YOU WERE NOT NERFED.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact of the matter is, <STRONG>dual</STRONG> wield needed this bonus. Maybe not for brawlers since they already had access to 2hander, but scouts certainly did. Using DW before this update resulted in less proccing than 2h weps, and less damage, which is crazy considering its two weapons, meaning people have to spend twice the resources/money/time to get them compared to a 2hander, so all logic dictates they should be equal, if not better in some cases. If you have a problem with mage damage supposedly being too low now, then thats what your topic should suggest, rather than a veiled nerf cry over dual wield.</DIV>

[Kaan]

<P>Alright, I have to admit..this thread truely baffles me.  Here, we have the heaviest nuker in the gamer talking about how terrible their damage is compaired to what.....Brawlers and bards.  For the love of god did I miss something here?  I play a level 35 Troubador, My damage with my dual weild axes are roughly 35-50, with my speed increase I'm attacking approximanly every second.  Over a course of 5 seconds I'm doing, around 212.5 damage, approximantly.  Ok, thats with in a 5 second span.  Now, I don't play a wizard, but I have friends who do and though I don't know the casting time lets take for instance the casting time on one of my friends nukes is 3 seconds (This seems pretty long, but it servers the purpose).  My friend waits for a minute while me and my brawler buddy insures we have agro..he stands...he starts casting...3 seconds later he hits the mob of 900-1000 damage.  </P> <P>Lets back track for a second...I said I did how much in 5 seconds?  212.5 damage...in three seconds the wizard just outdamaged me by approximantly 500 points.  Help me out here, how did wizards get nerfed?  (And this is including the damage increase  that was applied yesterday).  Now, let me figure this out...my class and those other dual weild classes get an increase in damage, wizards didn't (For the love of god isn't a 1K enough for you people, maybe we can petition sony to increase your damage in multiples of 10?  *drips with sarcasim*)...So...because we got the damage increaase you think the already powerful wizard class should get one to keep the damage gap equal?  This is just pure insanity, wizards already nuke for more then any other class...even more then warlocks (Warlocks being meant more for destroying groups then a single target).</P> <P>This is a common thing I always see, people always think if one class gets something their class should also get the same increase or benefit or whatever, that is unless it was a nerf then they are all like "Yea!  That class needed that..but not ours we've been under powered anyway...blah blah blah".  The fact of the matter is, tell me whats the problem with wizards?  Is it that your damage is too low?  Is it that your mana runs out too quickly?  Perhaps its your hit points, they should be that of SK's?  Maybe your armor, wanting to wear Platmail?  The fact of the matter is, you excel at what you're surppose to do..Nuke the hell out of a target.  Bards, Brawlers and the other Dual weild classes now excel at what they are surppose to do...DPS.  Its simple, you don't DPS..why?  For the simple fact that you deal a great amount of damage in a single shot (Dont' all wizards...gather the mighty mage energies for the final blast...BOOM!).  If you really want to DPS..follow this simple formular:</P> <P>The damage you do / Time to cast your spell = Your DPS</P> <P>For Example  900/3=300 DPS</P> <P>Example 2, concerning two spells  First spell did 900 with a 3 second cast, the second did 500 with a 2 second cast, the equivalant formular is:  (900+500)/(3+2) = 1400/5 = 280 DPS.  Wow..Look at that, thats still higher then me in 5 seconds...go figure...and thats NOT counting your HOs and other special abilties or INT increases and everything else.</P> <P>Wizards never got nerfed...Dual wielders got an increase...Dual weilders getting an increase DOSE NOT equal Wizards or any other class getting Nerfed.</P>

[KBern]

<P>Well in a round about way, it would be a nerf in a wizards role.</P> <P>For example if Guardians had 50% mitigation and then all scouts were beefed up to 50% mitigation, that would theoretically be a nerf to the guardians role as a tank.</P> <P>I am not saying that is the case here w/o actual parses and details, but when another class is given your niche...then yes, that can be a nerf.</P>

[Saihung23]

lol...what if I already have 50% mitigation? and what if the dual wield damage increase barely affected my rangers dps? oh...and what about ranger and assassins being "burst" dps as well... Wizards are fine dps wise...imho. (Btw...its just my opinion...you dont have to agree with it. Just respect it like I respect yours) <div></div>

[Joos]

Mages will get sympathy from me the day they can't solo ^^^Heroic mobs, when ever I see this I figure they do plenty of dps, being a priest and watching mages do what I do in a full group makes me think dps is ok.

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<div></div>[Removed for Content] love the title. So whenever a part of someone else's class is fixed or improved, it is considered a nerf to your class? <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> The wording, exaggeration and people's bias towards their own class never ceases to amaze me on these boards <span>:smileyvery-happy: <span><blockquote><hr>Mystildur wrote:<div>Title says it all.</div> <div> </div> <div>Scouts... brawlers... completely owning up mages (sorcerers and enchanters at least) in DPS from my initial parses.</div> <div> </div> <div>While they got a <font color="#ff6600">massive</font> DPS increase, mages get the shaft with a slight increase by being able to wield a symbol in a ranged slot...</div><hr></blockquote> Dps comes mostly from cas so an improvement to dual wield auto attack is hardly massive at all. Wizards on the other hand are still by far the most capable of soloing named.</span><span></span> </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by SmEaGoLLuM86 on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 AM</span>

[KBern]

<P>Yep no problem...just playing Devils Advocate...I dont have a dual weilder or a wizard...but I just tossed that 50% out there, but you know what I mean.</P> <P>Overall people need to stop worrying about what others can do.</P> <P>If you were having fun and liked your DPS as a wizard prior to this change, it is petty as heck to care that others have an increase.</P> <P>And I dont want to hear you cant get groups because of this either, that excuse is being overused by many priests right now...I mean...yeah...no one needs healing anymore and hates templars in their groups too lol /rollseyesmiley</P>

[snipes]

<DIV>Certain scout classes are supposed to do more dps then mages and especially chanters. A lot of people seem to forget the tiered system they were trying to make before the combat changes. ( someone post the link if you find it  or quote it).   They are still a ways off getting the classes to where they belong on that system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Daedan</DIV> <DIV>55 assassin unrest</DIV>

[snipes]

<DIV>By mages I don't mean wizards and warlocks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Daedan</DIV> <DIV>55 assassin unrest</DIV>

[Hawgeous]

Yes this thread is laughable and its obvious that the OP must have one hot bar with buffs only if he is getting owned that bad.

[Naggyba]

Don't think we all got a huge DPS increase with this DW change. They made sure some of our classes got a HUGE reduction in other areas to make up for the added DW damage. In effect, we got no DPS damage increase and in some case, our overall DPS was reduced, along with some of our 50-60 special skills made totally useless.The title of this thread should be .....Dual wield DPS change = Nerf bat (wihtout the mage part because that's what happened)<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:27 PM</span>

[Uumuuanu]

<P>The only change that I saw is the imbued/proc weapons are going off slightly more often.  My autoattack DPS has not really changed at all (based on 4 hours of parsing in RV).  And honestly the 42 warlock that was in group with me last night was COMPLETELY owning the group DPS wise.  To the point that he would have aggro so well the 2 scouts in the group simply stunned the mob and let him kill it.</P> <P>At mid levels, I am not seeing ANY significant change in scout DPS although I think my hit rate went up slightly with the proc rate.  </P>

[crunchybob]

<P>1. Fact one - the boost is for DW versus 2hand</P> <P>2. Fact two - this will only affect autoattack damage, as CA damage has not been changed.</P> <P>3. Fact three - mages are Teir1 DPS (excepting enchanters) and so are scouts. DEAL WITH IT.</P> <P>4. Fact four - anytime certain personality types read about a change to one class or another that is not THEIR class, they come running here screaming about the grand injustices done to them personally by the Sony Development staff with no numbers to back them up, no factual information and a huge chip on their shoulder. Treat the post for what it is, a flame bait and a sad one at that.</P> <DIV>I say Good Day To You Sir!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Joosul wrote:Mages will get sympathy from me the day they can't solo ^^^Heroic mobs, when ever I see this I figure they do plenty of dps, being a priest and watching mages do what I do in a full group makes me think dps is ok.<hr></blockquote>Yay, you will give sympathy to enchanters, at least that's 1/3rd of the mages.

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>Well in a round about way, it would be a nerf in a wizards role.</P> <P>For example if Guardians had 50% mitigation and then all scouts were beefed up to 50% mitigation, that would theoretically be a nerf to the guardians role as a tank.</P> <P>I am not saying that is the case here w/o actual parses and details, <STRONG>but when another class is given your niche</STRONG>...then yes, that can be a nerf.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Funny i thought as an assassin my niche would be dps /shrug<BR></P>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>Well in a round about way, it would be a nerf in a wizards role.</P> <P>For example if Guardians had 50% mitigation and then all scouts were beefed up to 50% mitigation, that would theoretically be a nerf to the guardians role as a tank.</P> <P>I am not saying that is the case here w/o actual parses and details, <STRONG>but when another class is given your niche</STRONG>...then yes, that can be a nerf.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Funny i thought as an assassin my niche would be dps /shrug<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes that is your niche....but are all DW'ers assassins?</P> <P>Yes, rhetorical question.<BR></P>

[Joos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Double post</BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Joosul on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:36 PM</span>

[Joos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Joosul wrote:<BR>Mages will get sympathy from me the day they can't solo ^^^Heroic mobs, when ever I see this I figure they do plenty of dps, being a priest and watching mages do what I do in a full group makes me think dps is ok.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Yay, you will give sympathy to enchanters, at least that's 1/3rd of the mages.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry man, I can feel your pain :smileysad:<BR>

[Vitaezz]

Myst is just upset because scouts finaly got a fix and he (wizards) cant pwn us in dps anymore.. before the changes I was doing about 600 - 700 dps per grp encoutner.. now im donig about 750-1k dps... depending on the amount of targets in the encounter.

[Mystild]

<DIV>I hate u vitaez~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But on a serious note, in a RAID setting, Ranger & Assassin are almost always higher than wizards..</DIV>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mystildur wrote:<BR> <DIV>I hate u vitaez~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But on a serious note, in a RAID setting, Ranger & Assassin are almost always higher than wizards..</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am not familiar with parses but..... Can that be cause a ranger can keep shooting arrows after being oop same as assasin they get a bow too right? Well a wizard can go oop and uses a lotta power in a raid but cant they convert health to power? ok sure that takes time and less time nuking means less overall DPS!</P> <P>I have a 50 ranger and only did one raid when i was lvl 27 (anguish in Antonica) I have done all the other raids as a 57 coercer so i know what happens there but..... i never dabbled in parses so what exactly does it mean that ya can reach 750 dps (damage per second) to 1 k as an assasin thats a huge increase if i understand correctly!</P> <P>GJ assasins you really needed that altough i am not sure how my ranger does on that dps list i do know that ya guys needed it from hearsay!</P> <P>anyways this thread is a joke kinda!</P>

[NerroVI]

I can't believe someone even had the gall to even post this nonsense as a thread.  PS it is wizards warloks rangers ASSASSINS as tier 1 dps not just warloks and wizards, and we still arent there yet so I will await your post once we assassins get where we are supposed to be. <div></div>

[Legionus1]

Lol wizards do not do massive DPS, this is the first funniest things I have ever heard the dps is dependancy on situation of encounters you cannot calculate Dps accordingly without calutlating there event, mobs and situation DPS line goes as follows: Tier one dps class              situation Warlocks                       vs      AOE encounters Assassin                        vs. Single Target encounters from the back and sneaked Wizards                          vs. Encounters with low wisdom or  lowerlevel mobs <greens> Rangers                           vs. With bow and arrow from afar Rangers and assassin have to buy arrows to do alot of there DPs counter to your regen abbility. Rangers and assassins have to buy poisions which are equvalent to your dot pets and dot spells. Rangers and assassins have to het hit to get the Duel wielding bonus...Wizzys/warlocks do not Rangers and assassins have to be BEHIND or FLAnking to do there high valued backstabs and backshots/ some times also invsed... You do not have to be flanking to NUKE for almost 5000 DPS at level 55-60 so please be cautious on how you state that your worthless. BTW you also have there utillites and then some <single target invs, portal spells, elemental and intel buffs> <div></div>

[Ramsy02]

<div></div>in raids wizards get out dps'ed by nercos,conjours,rangers,brigands,assassins,swashbu cklers, 95% of the time  on 60x4 ^^^ 1 mob Brusiers, zerkers,pallys, sks, monks 75% of the time So, yes theres a problem with wizards dps on raids PS. I didnt make a wizard to have evac and group buffs, I made a wizard to kick a mobs ASSS <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ramsy02 on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:11 PM</span>

[Launceal]

Not saying Wizzy dps against a fat named is exactly right, but.... Don't overlook the value to a raid of other jobs.  DPSing the one fat named isn't the only thing that needs doing.  Virtually one-shotting adds is a great way to take advantage of what wizzies do well.  Everyone figures their value based on one thing...how much dmg they do to the one big named.  Well healers dont add any value then.  I know wizards are supposed to be dps machines..but they are today dps machines against all sorts of mobs.  Often the key to winning an encounter is dealing with the adds.  Having a gang of wizards one shot adds is one strat we have used to great effect. <div></div>

[KBern]

Many raid mobs have built in heat and cold resists which diminish what wizards can do and makes necros and warlocks look better....but when you fight those disease/poison immune resist mobs...I bet the wizards/conj easily beat the necros/warlocks in DPS.

[Gromiff]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mystildur wrote:<BR> <DIV>Title says it all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts... brawlers... completely owning up mages (sorcerers and enchanters at least) in DPS from my initial parses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While they got a massive DPS increase, mages get the shaft with a slight increase by being able to wield a symbol in a ranged slot...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dude, I play a 40 Wizard and a 17 Warlock to be. I dueled a level 19 Zeker and whoopped his [Removed for Content] 4 -0 and every fight was less than 10 - 15sec long. One of those fights he almost got me cause I fizzled on a root but I made it out with only a few tics of red left on my health bar. I don't know where you are coming from but I am perfectly happy with my HIGH DPS Mages. </P> <P>My level 40 Wizard can do 1200+ damage with Adept I Ball of Flames Non-HO cast. For that kinda of damage without that spell being adept III quality I would say thats some pretty mean DPS. You might want to check your INT stat, you might have to raise that up some to get more damage out of your spells.</P> <P><STRONG>Statistics<BR></STRONG>Mages gain the following statistic bonuses:<STRONG><BR></STRONG>+3 Agility, +2 Stamina, +5 Intelligence<STRONG><BR><BR>Intelligence is a key statistic for mages, as it directly impacts the amount of power they have available.<BR><BR></STRONG><EM>Strength –</EM> Strength determines the amount of weight a character can carry and modifies how much damage they do in melee combat.<STRONG></STRONG></P> <P><EM>Agility –</EM> The higher your character's Agility, the greater their chances to hit an opponent in melee combat and avoid physical attacks.</P> <P><EM>Stamina –</EM> Stamina modifies the amount of Health Points a character has. It also affects how much damage an unconscious character can withstand before dying.</P> <P><EM>Intelligence –</EM> Intelligence modifies how much damage your character inflicts with magic-based attacks.</P> <P><EM>Wisdom –</EM> The higher your character's wisdom, the more successful they will be at both landing and avoiding magic-based attacks.<BR></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gromiff on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:44 PM</span>

[Eiindy]

<DIV>[Removed for Content]...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a 45 necro, and honestly, I couldn't give a crap about buffing other classes.  This is no nerf to us, none at all.  We can still do the same thing we could before the update.  I'm sorry to all of you scouts out there offended by this post, go have fun with your increased duel weild damage.  I'll go have fun with my class the way it is.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you're gunna make a post like this, don't be so generic.  My buddy is a 51 Conj and he doesn't have a problem with his DPS either or in groups.  I love my class the way it is, I'm sure there are changes needed for other classes, and I will /cheer when those classes get their much needed buffs. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Racs]

<DIV>As a 42 Wizard and a 20 Necro, I have to say, this thread is a joke. Who cares if the Dual Wields got an increase in DPS?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can they match the Wizards 1000 point shot with the 3 second cast time and 10 second recast. Probably not. </DIV> <DIV>Can they match the 200-300 points of damage every 3 seconds for 12 seconds the Wizards get? Probably, but that's just one spell.</DIV> <DIV>The Wizards ability to throw out 2500-3000 points of damage in 15-20 seconds is hard to match for any class, but then again, we can't just stand there and get beat on either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It all works out in the end, so I don't see how a Dual Wield DPS increase affects me in any way, unless the increase also applies to the Dual Wield abilities of the Necromancer's Shadowy Stalker, which would be a benefit, not a soft foamy football.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Padiddle <The Charmed Ones> - 42 Wizard - Befallen</DIV> <DIV>Puredark <The Charmed Ones> - 20 Necromancer - Befallen </DIV>