Where is the Templar class to go now, with EQUAL HEALING and almost nothing else?

[Caethre]

<DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where is the Templar class to go now, with EQUAL HEALING and almost nothing else?<BR>================================================== =============</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is now over a month since the LU13 update. The update contained much that was good for the long term benefit of the game. However, it also did quite a lot of harm in some areas, and has upset and alienated some sections of the playerbase. In that time, some of the problems have been addressed, and some classes have had answers given to their questions. This post is to ask for some attention to be given to the Templar issues, which have attracted precisely zero (perceived) attention from SOE, despite a huge outcry on the Templar forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The essence of the problem is this: many Templars are feeling side-lined. Players chose the Templar class at release to be Healers. We chose Templar over the other healing classes because they were the 'purest healer' of all, and for those of us who are ex-EQ1 players, the closest to the Cleric class from that game. We analyzed the class, and saw that it had less utility than the other priests, and did a lot less DPS, but we also saw that it was by far the most powerful healing class, so we were happy and made our choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ten months on, SOE decide to implement the "all priests must heal equally" principle, something that  was certainly not true at EQII launch. The experiences of most Templars now is that SOE have largely succeeded, and healing is now approximately balanced across all the six priest classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, nothing else was significantly changed. This means that Templar nukes still have a base damage approximately one-third that of Furies. It means Templars still have no vitally useful utility, like root, SoW, Snare, Evac, Slow, Group Invis ... and the list goes on ... all abilities available to various of the other priest classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This has lead to Templars who are not in hardcore raiding guilds, and who are not protected in fixed groups of friends or large guilds that give them groups every day, are sitting idle, unable to compete for group spots against other Priest classes more than capable of keeping groups alive in normal XP grinding / questing circumstances, and only able to solo at one third the rate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In turn, this has caused many Templar players to become demoralized, and many, like myself, have taken to start another class, only to see clearly how badly off we are now in this regard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Templar class needs some attention now. SOE, you cannot leave us as EQUAL HEALERS but at the same time, ONE-THIRD contributors in terms of damage and utility - noone will invite us to groups, and we cannot solo effectively compared to those other healing classes. The so-called 'healing utility' lines are too weak and too random (as well as requiring no skill, and hence are boring) to be useful outside very difficult content and outside raids - for small group and soloing situations, they are basically useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are countless suggestions on the Templar board on how this might be addressed. Nerfing other classes is not the answer either, some of them are fun, what is needed is a review of what you actually want from the Templar class, and to tell us where you see us as heading. Because right now, no-one in their right mind who has knowledge of the other healing classes, would choose a Templar as a duo partner or a healer in a group of 3 or 4, doing normal things, because other healers are just as good at healing (in the sense, they can keep the group alive) AND they can offer much more with their spare power. Parses of ~90dps for tier6 Templars are comparing to ~350+ dps for say teir6 Furies, these are appearing all over these forums, yet the healing is effectively equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The morale of Templars is at an all time low as a result. Are we going to get any sort of response from SOE on this please? Tell us please, what do you intend for our class, as our role, in solo and small group and normal XP group settings? Or do you intend all Templars who are not hardcore raiders to either re-roll as another class or just accept being across-the-board weaklings, seen as XP leeches by others, the healer to take when they can get noone else?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [33 Fury]<BR></DIV>

[Niburr]

/agree

[wrave]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME BAIT**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span>

[Gcha]

Things are not equal.  There are three elements to the equation: healing, DPS, utility.  Healing is almost equal.  Templars have inferior DPS and utility.

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<DIV>I got kicked from a group the other night in favour of a Fury who was LFG at the time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Their reason? She could heal, and she could serve as DPS if healing requirements were low for the mobs they were fighting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I love the class... I've gotten too far with it, and I'm way too casual to try to start over again with a new class, but giving everyone equal healing and then not addressing the fact that that's ALL the templar does is a little wonky in my view.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars were supposed to be the "supreme" healers. They bumped up the healing across all priests, but didn't even *think* about the fact that Templars may need a little more utility to make up for the void that used to be their healing pedestal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now we're equal healers without as much utility or dps as the other priests.</DIV>

[Elend]

Wravenn, Do you play a healing class? If so then you are either a disgruntled druid/shaman, and if you wanted to be a healer class ROLE A CLERIC! Also, if you are prepared to bash the class, try playing it first. For all you people that feel compelled to run your mouths about templars, make sure you know what youre talking about first. <div></div>

[Jida]

<P>I believe (opinion) that there are holes to be filled within the templar spell lineup. I feel (opinion) that when i am going all out against undead and not healing at all in a group situation, my DPS (only one doing HO's) should be above 144.</P> <P>But eh, im just a crazy euridite templar.</P> <P>I there are many threads regarding the issues on the templar fourms if anyone cares to visit them =)</P> <P>Elder</P>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>well more power to templars voice your concerns go for it.</P> <P>(just wanted to come in and say thay i think at least your utility is balanced a complete in combat rez some stuns/pacify and odyssey balance out sow/invis imo but who am I to say that I guess).</P> <P>(also I know youre like lvl 40 you said so olae, did your group pick up a lvl 40 fury? as at lvl 40 a fury's healing power isnt that hot, but ok it coudlve happened I guess)</P> <P>(so, srry for the break in and please continue voicing your concerns)</P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:36 AM</span>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 AM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>i wont derail this but i didnt imply you were lying im just saying that kicking someone for someone else is weird  and fury healing isnt that hot at lvl 40-ish.</P> <P>hmm personal attacks how nice, yes I have a day job im on the others side of the world so thats why im online now so thnx to try and attack me I dont track caeth i just keep an eye on the forums so dont worry dont think in conspiracies.</P> <P>(dont worry last post on thsi thread gday btw as this thread is in feedback I m entitled to give my view but nm guess Im not entitled to sorry)</P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:42 AM</span>

[Alectra]

<DIV>/agree  if we are all supposed to be equal then let us have invis,sow,evac, ect. Let us be equaul with the other healing classes for dps, buffs ect Do you know how frustraing it is to go and solo.I dont solo anymore its a waste of my time .It is hard for templar to find a group they would rather have other healing classes cuz the others have much more to offer a group.If I knew what I knew know I would of rolled a diffrent class all together playing a temp is not woth it to me anymore but if a guildie needs help I will get on as my temp and help them .As caethre said we need addressed as a templar class many have asked for help in templar froum and  1 dev said they will look into it.but I as many temps would like to see hard core evidance that this will be adressed.I hope that soe does something for us templars .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thank you caethre for posting all of this for us templar I hope soe see how it is for us and does do something to addresse this for templars.this has been a ongoing fight in templar froums to have someone lissen to us as we know what we are talking we play the templar class so we know frist hand how bad our class needs attention in areas.thank you again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>alecktra 54 templar </DIV>

[Jida]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alectra wrote:<BR> <DIV>/agree  if we are all supposed to be equal then let us have invis,sow,evac, ect. Let us be equaul with the other healing classes for dps, buffs ect Do you know how frustraing it is to go and solo.I dont solo anymore its a waste of my time .It is hard for templar to find a group they would rather have other healing classes cuz the others have much more to offer a group.If I knew what I knew know I would of rolled a diffrent class all together playing a temp is not woth it to me anymore but if a guildie needs help I will get on as my temp and help them .As caethre said we need addressed as a templar class many have asked for help in templar froum and  1 dev said they will look into it.but I as many temps would like to see hard core evidance that this will be adressed.I hope that soe does something for us templars .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thank you caethre for posting all of this for us templar I hope soe see how it is for us and does do something to addresse this for templars.this has been a ongoing fight in templar froums to have someone lissen to us as we know what we are talking we play the templar class so we know frist hand how bad our class needs attention in areas.thank you again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>alecktra 54 templar</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN>I disagree with the statements about utility in the above post. I believe that templar's utility is very unique and has beneficial aspects. Some of the utility mentioned above is purchasable by vendor for all that don’t posses the ability innately, our utility is not purchasable. Therefore in my mind it makes our utility even more valuable because the only way to get it is to have a templar (or cleric for oddessy).</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>I do believe that our damage is below par on all levels (Soloing, full grouping, small grouping).</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>With that said. My opinion is the templar’s healing needs a quick look over (some spells are in process of being fixed, others are not [sanctuary at adept I for instance]), no time spent on looking at utility (seems great IMO), LOTS of time spent looking at templar damage compared to other priests and buffed to be the bottom of the stack. Yeah I said buffed to be the bottom, I don’t want to be a wizzy, and I just want to be a smidge lower than the lowest to compensate for the increased healing capacity and ability to wear any armor.</SPAN></P></DIV>

[bigmak20]

/agree with OP SOE designed and implemented a dedicated healing class then deemed all healers equal... I'm OK with that BUT since the dedicated healing class lost that niche all other factors DPS especially need to be balanced -- HAVING DPS 3 TIMES LOWER THEN ANOTHER PRIEST IS NOT BALANCE.  Make it 2.5 maybe?...

[Isim]

<P>/agree with op</P> <P>where is the balance/fun?</P>

[Takeo1]

<P> </P> <P>...havent been booted from groups, and when I do go lfg I sometimes get responses....however...</P> <P> </P> <P>There isnt a doubt in my mind that, based on pure observation, the effectiveness of the class when COMPARED to the other sub-classes, particularly Druid/Shaman has been reduced. A broad generalization eh? Okay lets be more specific you lurking devs out there...a pair of examples to get the noodle wet....</P> <P> </P> <P>Mystic Slow = Templar ??? (Mark, Curate, etc.?) is there ANYTHING in our spell line that equals a slow one for one, hell two for one?</P> <P>Druid DS = Templar ??? (Mark, Curate,etc.?) Is there ANYTHING in our spell line that equals a DS one for one, hell two for two?</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway - yeah - needs work. Pay attention, and you may see whats up with all the other posts and observations.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lates.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<DIV>Incidently, Wardens receive their evac, Verdurous Journey, at level 39.  That's the same level Furies gain Spirit of Cheetah - NOT the level they receive invisibility (which is often compared apple/apple to Evac).  Also at 39, Templars receive our stun, Inquisitors receive a root/stifle, Defilers receive a fear, and Mystics receive a slow - all spells which seem designed to remove or reduce the danger facing a priest's group, presumably to give time for an escape or to regain control of a situation gone badly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as wanting Spirit of Wolf, that's received by all Shamans and Druids at level 13.  That's the same level that Clerics receive Odyssey.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we're going to compare spell lines to one another, we should at least compare the correct spell lines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mor]

While I fully support a bump in Templar dps (I know soloing is painful for you guys), your in-combat utility is the envy of wardens!  100% combat rez, Sanctuary, pacify, mez -- you guys have a lot more than we do.   It doesn't help your very valid concerns about your class to either exaggerate or ignore the benefits that templars do have.   <div></div>

[Landiin]

I feel your pain, and hope you get fix and not in the way they think they fixed us:/

[Kendricke]

<P>P.S. - This entire argument is predicated upon the assumption that all healing is indeed equal.  I do not find this to be the case.  Templars are still healing better than other classes in most group situations I've encountered and parsed (against similar level Furies, Wardens, and Mystics).  A great deal of our additional healing power comes from "utility" spells such as Atoning Fate, Glory of Combat, and Mark of Kings.</P>

[Aaf]

"A great deal of our additional healing power comes from "utility" spells such as Atoning Fate, Glory of Combat, and Mark of Kings." Well, if you're going to discuss spells, and validate your point for the entire class, you should only be able to bring out entire lines of spells from 20-60.   Yes the Fate line is great, and so are the Mark lines...but glory of combat?  How does that help a level 21, or a 36, or a 43?   The problem isn't at the higher levels, that I have seen, and talked to people about.  Most of the people that level have a group of friends and guild mates to drawl upon to help them, or at least secure a spot in an xp team. It's the templars in TS or EL or any of the 20-40 zones, who are trying to level up that are deffintly having a problem, sitting for hours /lfg when there are lots of groups out there with druid and shaman based classes that can heal just as fine. I know, cause my temp also has the same problem, and have talked to many other temps, that are now switching to druids, to at least be able to xp up to the higher levels. 

[Cuz]

I'll ask here, last time I asked I went unanswered. Are your mezzes so completely useless to warrant never being mentioned by a templar?

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>well more power to templars voice your concerns go for it.</P> <P>(just wanted to come in and say thay i think at least your utility is balanced a complete in combat rez some stuns/pacify <FONT color=#ff3300>and odyssey balance out sow/invis</FONT> imo but who am I to say that I guess).</P> <P>(also I know youre like lvl 40 you said so olae, did your group pick up a lvl 40 fury? as at lvl 40 a fury's healing power isnt that hot, but ok it coudlve happened I guess)</P> <P>(so, srry for the break in and please continue voicing your concerns)</P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:36 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Including Odyssey in this really made me chuckle. I have never once, not once, had it cast on me. If it is so great I have to ask myself why?</P> <P>I am not even a templar and I can see they have problems.<BR></P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aafek wrote:<BR>"A great deal of our additional healing power comes from "utility" spells such as Atoning Fate, Glory of Combat, and Mark of Kings."<BR><BR>Well, if you're going to discuss spells, and validate your point for the entire class, you should only be able to bring out entire lines of spells from 20-60.   Yes the Fate line is great, and so are the Mark lines...but glory of combat?  How does that help a level 21, or a 36, or a 43?   <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The actual statement was "A great deal of our additional healing power comes from "utility" spells...".  Please note that the next part of the statement was a listing of examples "such as".  It's not an all comprehensive list by any means, as I currently left out the Involuntary line as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just because a lower level Templar doesn't have access to Glory of Combat doesn't mean that Templar utility does not begin till level 40.  I will admit that I do not have any current parses or logs available for a lower or mid level Templar though.  </DIV>

[Aaf]

<div></div><div></div>*edit* This is in reply to <a href="../view_profile?user.id=96471" target="_blank"><span>Kenazeer</span></a> *edit*I played my Temp to 36.  At 35 they get a mez called Sign of Debility.   I had this spell at Adept 1.   12 second Mez with a recast of 20 seconds.I have done 10 seperate tests with it, fighting even level, 3 Gnoll Linked Solo's,  in the upper tunnels in Splitpaw.  Same group, for 10 tests.  I tried to cast the spell 10 times, during each test, so 100 casts of Sign. I switched targets during the test, so any figures wouldn't be off by one single mob with high resists.  Mob A, B, and C were in the test. My Normal way of casting would be A, B, C, A, B, C, A, B, C, A.The Sign, at adept 1,  had a 73pct resist rate, with no other debuffs.To anwser your question, at least in my opinion, yes, they are completely usless. Now, at lvl 60 or w/e with adept III mez or somthing, yes...It may work, I can't speak for that, I can only speak for the test i've ran, and since then taken the mez off of my templar's hotbar, it plain and simply sucks.<p>Message Edited by Aafek on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 AM</span>

[Aaf]

Ok Ken, I'm sorry, I misunderstood you, then.  I thought you were like, pointing that out specificly.   I jumped to conclusion's.   No harm, no foul, you're an avid supporter of the temps, and, even though my brig is my main, I really hate to see a temp main just lfg and quitting, that shouldn't be happening imho, for any class.

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kenazeer wrote: <P>Including Odyssey in this really made me chuckle. I have never once, not once, had it cast on me. If it is so great I have to ask myself why?</P> <P>I am not even a templar and I can see they have problems.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>LOL I have to agree with this one. In the year I have been in game I dont think I have ever seen this spell used once and I regulary group with two Templars. </DIV>

[Edyil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>P.S. - This entire argument is predicated upon the assumption that all healing is indeed equal.  I do not find this to be the case.  Templars are still healing better than other classes in most group situations I've encountered and parsed (against similar level Furies, Wardens, and Mystics).  A great deal of our additional healing power comes from "utility" spells such as Atoning Fate, Glory of Combat, and Mark of Kings.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Both of your comments are right on the money.  I have a hard time debating folks that still think subclasses of a given class were EVER intended to be unequal.  I am amazed at how many people will buy a game, pay for it for a year and STILL not understand the original game concept.</P> <P>NOTE:  All subclasses within a given class are created equal but different.  This concept has been in place since beta.  Wake up.</P> <P>Having said that and agreeing with Kendricke on both accounts (Temps are better healers and have unique utility), I still agree that their DPS needs to be boosted a little, though I don't know by how much.  Are things perfectly balanced?  No.  But they are very close now for all classes.  Every single subclass in this game needs to understand they can and will be interchangeable with their counter-parts.  The interchangeability depends on the circumstance.</P> <P>As for the OP's group:  The best thing that could have happened to you was to get booted from a group with a class A bunghole like that guy as group leader.  You should be thanking him.</P>

[Blast2hell]

<P>In regards to the OP by Caethre I think I agree.   I haven't always agreed with Caethre, and Caethre certainly hasn't always agreed with me, but I sure hope a dev somewhere reads this well worded post.....  </P> <P>Points of the templar Debate to the side, why the silence from the Devs? when you clearly have a player base that's frustrated and confused the silence is a smack in the face.    If they don't like what's said in a thread, don't reply to a thread, start there own thread to comment on.   The silence alone is really disappointing to me though.  It says to me that they don't care, or don't deem us worthy of any response at all.</P> <P> </P> <P>I use to agree with Kendricke, that we were the best healers, but with the changes recently to the other priest class, I no longer feel were the best.  I think every priest is the best healer in certain situations.  I also parse heals, I've been parsing heals every single night since LU13, and I've seen how those parses have changed after patches to priest classes.   Were no longer the best,  were just the best at certain times,  just like every other priest is the best healer at certain times.  That my opinion on healing, because leveling from 50-60 and parsing 95% of all fights tell me it's true.</P> <P>In regards to utility...I don't see that we need anymore then we have, yet changes to what we have may be nice. </P> <P>Templars have the best rez in the game, NOBODY has a better rez.  Paladin rez is almost as good, but it has rez effects.  Besides Templar/paladin rez, all others are junk and should only be used if no other option(in combat rez is what I speak of).</P> <P>I won't get into our other utility that I feel is useful because I don't want to derail this thread.   </P> <P>What I do want though, is better DPS, you can not give me a good reason for why my DPS is so low.  There is no longer any valid reason for Templar DPS to be as low as it is....it needs to be changed, it needs to be addressed.</P> <P>The Dev silence in regards to templars needs to stop.  I support the revamp, I think it's done great things for the game, I think EQ2 is a great game, and I will not stop playing my templar.  I will say that typing a reply to the Templar community in general is far past due.</P>

[Blast2hell]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=rules&message.id=12" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=rules&message.id=12</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the above link shows a post by Moorgard which says that even though an issue may be high-profile, they won't respond if they don't have anything of value to say.  But the revamp has been out for two months...so does that mean in two months they can't think of anything to say?  Is the templar class really that much of a conundrum?</DIV>

[toxe14567]

I have to agree with the OP. Being a quester I solo a lot and our puny damage output makes this a pain. So please greatly increase our damage output or healing power. I'd prefer the healing though. On a side note: If I had to chose between Odyssey or Evac, guess what I'd take? Yes, Odyssey. This is a great spell and I use it regularly on myself or guild mates.<div></div>

[Vicio]

<DIV>Odessy would rock if it was instant and had no recast timer. I could actually gate everyone in my group</DIV> <DIV> home. Sign of Debility (the mez one anyway) can only be useful if the mez wasn't shorter than the recast timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't mind that we all heal equally, but we should at least be equal in dps and utility too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[UrkBloodA]

<P>it's not quite equal healing.  as a non-templar it's INFERIOR healing.  I'd much rather group someone who does regens than reactive heals.  reactive heals do not help casters who are converting heal to mana.</P>

[Andu]

I agree pretty much with everything the OP said. In answer to one or two of the comments regarding our mezzes, they are indeed totally useless. This is because: a) In a group, it is impossible for anyone to tell the mob is mezzed, hence the mez is broken in less than a second. b) Solo, our dps is so low and our heals so long to cast that we perhaps can get one spell off or cause around 300 damage (at level 52) before the mez drops, making it a waste of time to cast. I also agree that Odyssey would be great if it wasnt for the 10 minute recast. If it sent your entire group home, now that would be useful. <div></div>

[dizzi73]

<P>Templar, Templar, Templar</P> <P>What about the Inquisitor?</P> <P>However, I agree 100% on this matter. </P> <P>EQ1 healers never had the same healing capacity, why should EQ2 healers? Tanks don't tank the same, mages dont nuke the same....why do healers need to heal the same?</P> <P>The other healers have far more utility, and therefore should not be as good healers. Groups should be able to choose healers accordingly, not alienating the Cleric classes because they have liitle or no utility.</P> <P>I didnt know Templars could mezz (I play a coercer) but seriously, with Bards and Chanters they really shouldnt need to often. Not like the usefulness of SoW or Evac or group invis.</P> <P>And Odyssey? Seriously, what a waste of a spell, especially now that we can get call to Maj'Dul. One of the 2 is always up for me.</P> <P>But seriously, just because there are loads of you</P> <P>WHAT ABOUT THE INQUISITORS TOO??</P>

[Elda]

<DIV>i'm sorry, maybe i'm taking the flame-bait here, but....what's with all the templar angst?</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>1) OK, stop saying you're at the bottom of the DPS food chain. Have any of you actually grouped with a fury? they do like 150 dps on full burn versus your 120 or a defiler's 130 or an mystics 110, ITS NOT A BIG DIFFERENCE!. Please, check it out the facts in game before jumping on the complainer's bandwagon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, furies have a couple of big nukes....but the recast timers are super long. Look the spells up, do the math, or group with a fury. Either way, find out the truth.... over time they do like 20% more damage than you do. Furies do not do damage like a DPS class. If you're kicked from a group bc of a "DPS fury" your tank is a [Removed for Content]. Tell him to download EQ2parse and learn to read. Also, note that all priests suck hardcore in damage, not just you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) In combat utility. Some classes have slows (mystics), some have attribute debuffs (defilers), some have melee buffs and dmg procs (fury) some have crowd control (inquisitor), others have secondary healing procs and mitigation debuffs(TEMPLARS).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YES, you guys have a line of in combat utility spells. Some are probably good, and some are probably not worth casting, like some of mine, and some of wardens and fury and whatever. If you dont consider mark of kings, involountary healer, prostrate, disgrace and the best rez in game to be in combat utility....then what do you call them? Do you really feel you're not equal in this category?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With all primary healing lines (wards/reactives/regens and direct heals) of all healers pretty much equal, here's where you get your step up in "pure healing" over other classes. Instead of contributing to battle by having slows, or elemental debuffs or reactive damage procs, you contribute with a line of secondary healing abilities...get it?  Your secondary ability is more healing...can you really complain about that? Isn't "pure healing" what you wanted? Or did you want your primary healing line to be better in healing than all other priests, AND your secondary line to be pure healing. Geez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Out of combat utility. Okay, you guys have oddessy, which sucks so hard that i'm not gonna count it. But you also get pacify spells, which rock very, very hard. Especially when harvesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar: pacify line</DIV> <DIV>Druids: SoW + evac or invis</DIV> <DIV>Shaman: SoW</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So clerics and shaman have one utility line and druids have 2...so druids have more out of combat utility. Good, they need to invis and evac + SoW with the crappy armor they wear. Maybe they can run screaming back into the woods in one piece while we as clerics and shaman take the hits in our metal or chain armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is there some other out of combat utility i'm missing? No? So really, is this all about you wanting SOW? Well if it really is, I hope you guys get it....its really not all that special when everyone 50+ has a horse and a carpet which SoW does NOT stack with. You knew that, rite?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>In closing, Devs, can you give the templars a self-rez or a teleport or an out of combat power regen buff or SOMETHING</DIV> <DIV>......something just to stop the whining....? Look, we wont care....all the other healers are happy now that we can heal at all....Lets just quiet the templars down so we can get on with the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Eldarn on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:22 PM</span>

[Celestian_]

<span><blockquote><hr><blockquote dir="ltr"> <div>3) Out of combat utility. Okay, you guys have oddessy, which sucks so hard that i'm not gonna count it. But you also get pacify spells, which rock very, very hard. Especially when harvesting.</div></blockquote> <hr></blockquote> Holy Moses! Pacify ROCKS because you can HARVEST! Or, for those of us that could give a rats tail about harvesting it stinks.  Sorry, it isn't a reason people want us to group with them. I had to respond, that was just to funny. </span><div></div>

[Vicio]

<DIV>I have to admit, Pacify does rock for harvesting. However I'm afriad that's about it. If I could pacify mulitple hostiles it might be a different story.</DIV>

[Twizzel]

<P>And what would we give for a Root spell?  I find it quite humerous that we get "pacify", but then I started a Swashbuckler when I benched my Templar and guess what...even rogues get a "mezz"...lol.  For the person above that said the difference between a nuke that does 110 and one that does 150 isn't that much...um, that would be 200 additional damage in 5 casts.  I can't count the number of times I've lived or died by WAY less that 200 damage.</P> <P>I don't think any Templars mind the other classes being brought up equal in healing...but it is certainly a valid argument that Templars should get increased utilities (and not just additional healing for specific situations) to truly balance out all of the healing classes.</P>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vicious wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have to admit, Pacify does rock for harvesting. However I'm afriad that's about it. If I could pacify mulitple hostiles it might be a different story.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>True, and SoW rocks, for people with no carpets and horses, or if you're in a dungeon crawl and for some reason plan on running AND can get your group members to sit still long enough to SoW them (yes, generally you can only get it on one or 2 people bc everyone else is walking away). is it nice?....Are you gimped without SoW? lol no.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to argue that druids have more out of combat utility compared to clerics and shaman, fine, I can agree that there may be a valid point there...but this "sky is falling, we are nerfed and all other priests have uber 3x damage and uber 3x utility" rhetoric that may templars are now buying into is probably why the devs aren't responding to cleric posts on this matter. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, note how inquisitors arent crying bloody murder here? They are happy, just like the other priests, who realize we aren't invited to a group because we can make people run faster, add 20% more DPS than an avg priest, invis the group, or bring them back to zone line. We are invited because we can keep them alive, and you guys still do that as well as other priests in most situations, and better in some others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope you as a class get your class argument together and stop inciting this "sky is falling" mentality in other templars filled with overexagerrated DPS and clearly incorrect claims of no in-combat-utility, and instead focus on your real issue: a replacement for the odessy line of spells because your out-of-combat-utility is sub-par.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Druzgotek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dizzi73 wrote:<BR> <P>Templar, Templar, Templar</P> <P>What about the Inquisitor?</P> <P>However, I agree 100% on this matter. </P> <P>EQ1 healers never had the same healing capacity, why should EQ2 healers? Tanks don't tank the same, mages dont nuke the same....why do healers need to heal the same?</P> <P>The other healers have far more utility, and therefore should not be as good healers. Groups should be able to choose healers accordingly, not alienating the Cleric classes because they have liitle or no utility.</P> <P>I didnt know Templars could mezz (I play a coercer) but seriously, with Bards and Chanters they really shouldnt need to often. Not like the usefulness of SoW or Evac or group invis.</P> <P>And Odyssey? Seriously, what a waste of a spell, especially now that we can get call to Maj'Dul. One of the 2 is always up for me.</P> <P>But seriously, just because there are loads of you</P> <P>WHAT ABOUT THE INQUISITORS TOO??</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Lol. I liked my inquisitor pre-revamp, even though I was much worse than a templar. Now, I am totally disappointed with my inquisitor. No 100 percent res, no sanctuary (ya, templars get preference due to that spell now). Reactive not worth casting anymore because everyone and their brother overwrites it. Debuffs that are pathetic. No Dps.</P> <P>Cool things: I can unstun myself and only myself, good for duels I suppose, but still broken for soem effects. Also get a spell that has 10 percent chance to give me 100ish mana per soemones melee or spell hit.</P> <P>The mez thing is soothe, all clerics get it, it makes single target non aggro, did not actually work when already fighting stuff, but maybe i did not test enough, either way its worthless.<BR></P> <P>On my server, most of the already few inquisitors quit before and after revamp. The few inquisitors I see here on boards seem very happy with their new skills post revamp. I am sure a few of them will post right below me about how inquisitors are awesome, if they notice this post.</P> <P>I can heal in group as well as anyone, but as far as dps and utility goes, I have little of that. As far as raids go, well, before revamp I actually felt like I was doing somethign on raids, now my reactive gets overwritten, I have 2 direct heals I can cast, and some [Removed for Content] debuffs. Before revamp, I came to a lot of raids, now I feel pretty worthless on them so seldom show.</P> <P>I still play because my guild is pretty good, and there is no other mmo out atm that I want to play. I am not having fun. I had more before revamp even though templars were so much better.</P> <P>(this is just a generic whine from a raid perspective, I have all t5 and t6 spells adept 3 or better)</P> <P> </P>

[Andu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eldarn wrote:<BR> <DIV>i'm sorry, maybe i'm taking the flame-bait here, but....what's with all the templar angst?</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>1) OK, stop saying you're at the bottom of the DPS food chain. Have any of you actually grouped with a fury? they do like 150 dps on full burn versus your 120 or a defiler's 130 or an mystics 110, ITS NOT A BIG DIFFERENCE!. Please, check it out the facts in game before jumping on the complainer's bandwagon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, furies have a couple of big nukes....but the recast timers are super long. Look the spells up, do the math, or group with a fury. Either way, find out the truth.... over time they do like 20% more damage than you do. Furies do not do damage like a DPS class. If you're kicked from a group bc of a "DPS fury" your tank is a [Removed for Content]. Tell him to download EQ2parse and learn to read. Also, note that all priests suck hardcore in damage, not just you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) In combat utility. Some classes have slows (mystics), some have attribute debuffs (defilers), some have melee buffs and dmg procs (fury) some have crowd control (inquisitor), others have secondary healing procs and mitigation debuffs(TEMPLARS).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YES, you guys have a line of in combat utility spells. Some are probably good, and some are probably not worth casting, like some of mine, and some of wardens and fury and whatever. If you dont consider mark of kings, involountary healer, prostrate, disgrace and the best rez in game to be in combat utility....then what do you call them? Do you really feel you're not equal in this category?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With all primary healing lines (wards/reactives/regens and direct heals) of all healers pretty much equal, here's where you get your step up in "pure healing" over other classes. Instead of contributing to battle by having slows, or elemental debuffs or reactive damage procs, you contribute with a line of secondary healing abilities...get it?  Your secondary ability is more healing...can you really complain about that? Isn't "pure healing" what you wanted? Or did you want your primary healing line to be better in healing than all other priests, AND your secondary line to be pure healing. Geez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Out of combat utility. Okay, you guys have oddessy, which sucks so hard that i'm not gonna count it. But you also get pacify spells, which rock very, very hard. Especially when harvesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templar: pacify line</DIV> <DIV>Druids: SoW + evac or invis</DIV> <DIV>Shaman: SoW</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So clerics and shaman have one utility line and druids have 2...so druids have more out of combat utility. Good, they need to invis and evac + SoW with the crappy armor they wear. Maybe they can run screaming back into the woods in one piece while we as clerics and shaman take the hits in our metal or chain armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is there some other out of combat utility i'm missing? No? So really, is this all about you wanting SOW? Well if it really is, I hope you guys get it....its really not all that special when everyone 50+ has a horse and a carpet which SoW does NOT stack with. You knew that, rite?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>In closing, Devs, can you give the templars a self-rez or a teleport or an out of combat power regen buff or SOMETHING</DIV> <DIV>......something just to stop the whining....? Look, we wont care....all the other healers are happy now that we can heal at all....Lets just quiet the templars down so we can get on with the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN>Using your numbering …</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>1) What is wrong with saying we are at the bottom of the DPS food chain when we are? You even acknowledged as much. What we are saying is if healing is “equal but different” and utility is “equal but different” then why isn’t DPS equal. There shouldn’t be a food chain between priests at all.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>As an aside, it is not possible for a Templar to put out the DPS you are talking about in a group without completely giving up on healing. Our spells are all of the low damage low recast type requiring you to chain cast them. Your high damage long recast allows you to heal the group and drop a considerable chunk of DPS in the gaps. That is the big difference.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I would also note that soloing for ALL priest classes is slow, I guess Templars just notice it more than most because we are the worst at it. However, I think ALL priest classes should get some help in the soloing department.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>2) This wonderful secondary healing you are referring to is in fact poor at best. The involuntary .. and mark of .. lines are all procs. I would guess on average they proc once per fight, if at all. And they heal for about 1% of the average tanks hit points in the event they do go off. I sometimes cast them in a fight if I am bored. I sometimes don’t. It makes zero difference to the outcome and noone notices.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Prostrate is a 6 second stun with an appallingly long cast time and a 30 (?) second recast. It is a waste of space on your toolbar. I have tried manfully to find some sort of use for it but at the end of the day a 6 second stun (with the cast time it has) is just not long enough to usefully contribute anything.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I have never seen parsed data on the disgrace line. I assume it does something but it is impossible to tell. Again, sometimes I cast it, sometimes I don’t. It makes zero difference on the outcome of any fights I have been in. I would love for someone to demonstrate to me how this spell helps in any quantifiable way if only to reassure me I’m not wasting my time using it.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Rez – ok I’m very happy with this change – it is one of the few things the CU improved for us.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>You missed out Glory of Combat which I include for the sake of being fair as it is a good spell. However, you only get it at 46 so the lower level Templars out there are stuffed.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>3) The pacify line is utterly rubbish as well. It won’t even pacify the whole of an encounter and still breaks at seemingly random intervals. I wouldn’t even use it for harvesting. Besides, if that is the best use for it you can come up with then I don’t need to say any more.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>-----------------</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I know you guys must look at us saying what is the problem? You always healed great and you still heal great. Why are you moaning now? Whining Templars do my head in!</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I do feel your frustration from the post you made. In other games I have been on the other side of the fence wondering the same thing about some class which has started whining after changes were made.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>However, we really do have issues, big issues, and I guess I’m just asking you to trust us when we say there is a problem which we need to get sorted out. We aren’t just moaning for the sake of it. We certainly aren’t looking for nerfs, or to get back to the “good old days” or anything like that. We just want some equality and to make our class fun to play again.</SPAN></P></DIV>

[Twizzel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eldarn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vicious wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have to admit, Pacify does rock for harvesting. However I'm afriad that's about it. If I could pacify mulitple hostiles it might be a different story.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>True, and SoW rocks, for people with no carpets and horses, or if you're in a dungeon crawl and for some reason plan on running AND can get your group members to sit still long enough to SoW them (yes, generally you can only get it on one or 2 people bc everyone else is walking away). is it nice?....Are you gimped without SoW? lol no.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to argue that druids have more out of combat utility compared to clerics and shaman, fine, I can agree that there may be a valid point there...but this "sky is falling, we are nerfed and all other priests have uber 3x damage and uber 3x utility" rhetoric that may templars are now buying into is probably why the devs aren't responding to cleric posts on this matter. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, note how inquisitors arent crying bloody murder here? They are happy, just like the other priests, who realize we aren't invited to a group because we can make people run faster, add 20% more DPS than an avg priest, invis the group, or bring them back to zone line. We are invited because we can keep them alive, and you guys still do that as well as other priests in most situations, and better in some others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope you as a class get your class argument together and stop inciting this "sky is falling" mentality in other templars filled with overexagerrated DPS and clearly incorrect claims of no in-combat-utility, and instead focus on your real issue: a replacement for the odessy line of spells because your out-of-combat-utility is sub-par.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm...unless I missed it, I notice you completely forgot to mention your DS, which I believe is an "in combat" ability?  Gee, perhaps a DS versus undead might actually make sense for a Templar?  You know, an undead creature hitting a holy man/woman and getting burned or something?  Oh, and assuming at the same time that would be implemented we don't change all the undead to three up arrow heroic mobs.  How about we either remove all other healers damage shields and reduce all of their nukes to be equivalent to Templar nukes?  See, now people can tell me to stop asking for a nerf to other healers...but since you think Templars already have great nukes (and apparently something equivalent to damage shields), shouldn't that be an okay argument?  BTW, I don't really want to nerf the other healing classes, just making a point.<BR>

[Granfather]

<P>Ok one thing i realy have to say after a year of playing the from its luanch and playing a healer (Warden) is tempers are nowhere nears as gimped had you make some make them sound I'm not sayer there are some inprovemnets that cant me made sure same with all classes but one thing i will say is ALL healing classes are mesnt to be Equle in healing just in diffrent way that was the Ideal soe had from the stare same with all mage classes being best mangers and fighers being all good tanks just do it in diffrent ways there is no pure healing class or pure tank class. Now I will say this after witnessing a 40th lev themplare own a 45 lev pally in a duwl using noting but healing shield and a magic want i became very inpressed with templaers healing ablitys thats something i could pull off with a warden. The only prob i have with temlars and this realy go for most Healers classes is the way most play them and healingin mages the sit back and do nothing but heal or maybe dot. healers have MORe hp then mages and better aror for a reason druild class sacrifices armor for beter dots and dmg spells at the coust of less protection granted but still had the same portecion as some scout classes. teplaers have much better armor you can where plate i believe that makers you the most proteced of any healing class wade into the front lin and make up the damage you spells dont do with you weponsTempare are Warrior priests thats thats how that are ment to be played not if Priets themselve can doo some nice dmgif they wish with wepon and spell bup too many stand back  and dont and any fron melee suport withch they are Very good at even hafer the update 13 i dare day even more so n</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN>I have never seen parsed data on the disgrace line. I assume it does something but it is impossible to tell. Again, sometimes I cast it, sometimes I don’t. It makes zero difference on the outcome of any fights I have been in. I would love for someone to demonstrate to me how this spell helps in any quantifiable way if only to reassure me I’m not wasting my time using it.</SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I've parsed it.  At level 52 and 53, my level 39 Adept I Reproach drops physical mitigation on a target by 453 for only 53 power.  This one spell has increased group damage output dramatically - more so with more melee DPS.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tend to group with at least 2 scouts most of the time and in those instances, I've noted increases to group DPS by 10-20% or more just by casting Reproach.  One minute the group's doing 900-1100 DPS.  The next, we're pulling down 1100-1300 DPS.  It's pretty consistent as well - the difference is immediately noticible. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[OlaeviaTraisharan]

<DIV>You know, I read back over this thread and it reminds me of the exact same arguments Clerics had with EQ1 before the forums were shut down and Absor lost his cool <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[bigmak20]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Eldarn wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>i'm sorry, maybe i'm taking the flame-bait here, but....what's with all the templar angst?</div> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <div>1) OK, stop saying you're at the bottom of the DPS food chain. Have any of you actually grouped with a fury? they do like 150 dps on full burn versus your 120 or a defiler's 130 or an mystics 110, ITS NOT A BIG DIFFERENCE!. Please, check it out the facts in game before jumping on the complainer's bandwagon.</div> <div> </div> <div>Yes, furies have a couple of big nukes....but the recast timers are super long. Look the spells up, do the math, or group with a fury. Either way, find out the truth.... over time they do like 20% more damage than you do. Furies do not do damage like a DPS class. If you're kicked from a group bc of a "DPS fury" your tank is a [Removed for Content]. Tell him to download EQ2parse and learn to read. Also, note that all priests suck hardcore in damage, not just you.</div> <div> </div></blockquote> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><p>Message Edited by Eldarn on <span class="date_text">11-08-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:22 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>There's so much BS in this post but I'll just pick on the DPS.  Furies... 150 at full burn?  ROFL What level?  10? At 52 Fury at full burn is FIVE HUNDRED DPS using specials and THREE HUNDRED DPS not using those long recast specials. At 53 Templar at full burn is SEVENTY TWO DPS -- and that , my friend. was the HIGH the average was mid 50 something. <span>:smileysurprised:</span> on edit:  Yeah; healing is good.  No complaints.  Healing is getting balanced.  That's fine and dandy.  Our "utility" is our 'special heals' and LU16 is addressing those to start making that viable.  Doesn't explain the big DPS disparity.  Doesn't explain why a fury can drop a mob in 24 secs and the best the templar can hope for is 75 secs.  etc .. if, as a templar, all you do is group with decent DPS friends you are thinking "Templar is fine quit whining".  On the other hand, if you quest and solo and have actually observed the MASSIVE difference in time between how long it takes you vs. someone else... then you understand.  Or if you've been rejected from groups because the group wanted healing AND DPS so chose a Fury...etc.  A class dedicated to healing is only needed at one point in this game -- big nameds/raids.  That's the only time that extra few percent of healing from "utility" MIGHT make a difference.  So give us DPS equivalent to a Furies and shutup already.  We have "equal but different" utility and "equal but different" healing.. WHERE THE HELL IS OUR DPS? </span><p>Message Edited by bigmak2010 on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:48 AM</span>

[Sirenta]

First of all let me introduce me: Schleifer, Templar (53,5), Valor Not quite Satisfied, but ok I do not quite understand the fuzz that all templars are making... We were uber and now we are well not uber anymore. The healing had to be equalized. Some healers were quite crappy in doing what they were supposed to: Heal. In-Combat Utility: Well we are low. But Inquis do not even get the 100% Rezz. If they would just improve the Proc everything would be quite fine. (Our Procs are way too powerless) Then make the recast of our stun 1/2 (7s Stun,15 Sec Recast, 3s Cast) That would be useful Same goes for our Mezz. If it just would have stayed the way it was on test (Group-Mezz) Its funny how a Cleric whines about mezzes are useless, because they are broken oh so often (Yes I do have an Illusionist =) ) As for our Out of Combat  utility Make our Odyssee groupwide, and let each member chose 1. Don't port 2. Port to Home-Town 3. (if already obtained) Port to Maj'Dul That would make the spell at least as useful as Invis or Evac or SoW Make our Str/Wis Buff 1 or 2 Concentration and on whole group That would be more than enough . DPS: Well, Test was cool, the Divine Damage-Aura (that now goes along with the Paladin). Just give it back Or at LEAST, alter our 3 Damagespells so we can spam them. Having all Damagespells greyed out for seconds just using Autoattack is in no way satisfying. And while at it, change the Pacify effect to an Interrupt Effect That would be enough. See, I'm a healer, I don't care about nuking. I still play a role. (Even though it is hard to be one of a handful of Truth-Member of the guild) <div></div>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eldarn wrote:<BR> <DIV>i'm sorry, maybe i'm taking the flame-bait here, but....what's with all the templar angst?</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>1) OK, stop saying you're at the bottom of the DPS food chain. Have any of you actually grouped with a fury? they do like 150 dps on full burn versus your 120 or a defiler's 130 or an mystics 110, ITS NOT A BIG DIFFERENCE!. Please, check it out the facts in game before jumping on the complainer's bandwagon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, furies have a couple of big nukes....but the recast timers are super long. Look the spells up, do the math, or group with a fury. Either way, find out the truth.... over time they do like 20% more damage than you do. Furies do not do damage like a DPS class. If you're kicked from a group bc of a "DPS fury" your tank is a [Removed for Content]. Tell him to download EQ2parse and learn to read. Also, note that all priests suck hardcore in damage, not just you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Eldarn on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:22 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There's so much BS in this post but I'll just pick on the DPS.  Furies... 150 at full burn?  ROFL<BR><BR>What level?  10?<BR><BR>At 52 Fury at full burn is FIVE HUNDRED DPS using specials and THREE HUNDRED DPS not using those long recast specials.<BR><BR>At 53 Templar at full burn is SEVENTY TWO DPS -- and that , my friend. was the HIGH the average was mid 50 something.<BR><BR><SPAN>:smileysurprised:</SPAN><BR><BR>on edit:  Yeah; healing is good.  No complaints.  Healing is getting balanced.  That's fine and dandy.  Our "utility" is our 'special heals' and LU16 is addressing those to start making that viable.  Doesn't explain the big DPS disparity.  Doesn't explain why a fury can drop a mob in 24 secs and the best the templar can hope for is 75 secs.  etc<BR><BR>.. if, as a templar, all you do is group with decent DPS friends you are thinking "Templar is fine quit whining".  On the other hand, if you quest and solo and have actually observed the MASSIVE difference in time between how long it takes you vs. someone else... then you understand.  Or if you've been rejected from groups because the group wanted healing AND DPS so chose a Fury...etc.  A class dedicated to healing is only needed at one point in this game -- big nameds/raids.  That's the only time that extra few percent of healing from "utility" MIGHT make a difference.  So give us DPS equivalent to a Furies and shutup already.  <BR><BR>We have "equal but different" utility and "equal but different" healing.. WHERE THE HELL IS OUR DPS?<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by bigmak2010 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>bigmak, do you even have a templar? </P> <P>a 53 templar doing 72 dps? a fury doing 500 dps? ok, im coming back with parses later on tonight. You're talking about outlier battles; yeah on a group of 4 heroics ^'s a fury can do like 300 dps IF and only if the team is full of AoE'ers cause the fight lasts 15 seconds and all they have to do is cast one spell. Once the fight lasts for a reasonable amount of time, the DPS drops because of recast timers. </P>And now that you said a lv 53 templar does 72 dps i know you're just making numbers up. The templar i was referring to was 53, but even the lower level templar in our guild, 51 does 110 dps in a group. <P>Yes, on outlier battles, a low 50's fury can do high DPS. On single mob targets, the numbers i posted earlier are accurate. Can a fury solo faster, sure, 25-30% faster because of their DPS.</P> <P>However, note that the nature of the argument has changed from "why are templars so useless" to "why do furies have so much dps"? </P> <P><STRONG>If you want a fury DPS nerf, call for it, don't complain that your class sucks in every way.</STRONG></P>

[Joos]

<P>I hope Inquisitors get a little love if the templers do :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P>I must admidt that I sit LFG a lot more since the balancing swizle and do have a little druid envy, looks like Everdruid II </P>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anduri wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN>Using your numbering …</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>1) What is wrong with saying we are at the bottom of the DPS food chain when we are? You even acknowledged as much. What we are saying is if healing is “equal but different” and utility is “equal but different” then why isn’t DPS equal. There shouldn’t be a food chain between priests at all.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN> <SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>That's the thing; you're NOT at the bottom of the DPS department. You templars do the same crappy DPS as defilers, wardens, mystics and inquisitors. (Furies can do more, and in some specific situations do good DPS.) When templars address it by saying "templars are useless compared to other priest classes bc of dps" it looks silly, because we all know we do the same crappy dps as you do, so it just sounds like whining. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>It's like defilers saying "we're [Removed for Content] because we don't evac like all other priests".....You know you dont have evac, nor do most priests, so it sounds silly.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>Also, note that the "utility" of furies could be considered DPS, whereas you have secondary healing, I have attribute debuffing (defiler), mystics have slows...so on.</FONT></SPAN></P></SPAN></SPAN> <P><SPAN>As an aside, it is not possible for a Templar to put out the DPS you are talking about in a group without completely giving up on healing. Our spells are all of the low damage low recast type requiring you to chain cast them. Your high damage long recast allows you to heal the group and drop a considerable chunk of DPS in the gaps. That is the big difference.</SPAN></P><SPAN> <P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></SPAN></P></SPAN><SPAN>I would also note that soloing for ALL priest classes is slow, I guess Templars just notice it more than most because we are the worst at it. However, I think ALL priest classes should get some help in the soloing department.</SPAN> <P></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>Soloing needs to be addressed, agree.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>2) This wonderful secondary healing you are referring to is in fact poor at best. The involuntary .. and mark of .. lines are all procs. I would guess on average they proc once per fight, if at all. And they heal for about 1% of the average tanks hit points in the event they do go off. I sometimes cast them in a fight if I am bored. I sometimes don’t. It makes zero difference to the outcome and noone notices.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>No priest has a magic button which trivializes an encounter. If I stack my 24% attribute reduction spell, my -48 wis, -str, agi debuff, my 10% slow, my 14% dps reduction, my %12 dps reduction spells and then parse it, it reduces encounter dps by MAYBE 10%. And i can only do that on one target. That's chaincasting 5 spells with 100-200 power requirements to get a 10% dps reduction. I'll let you in on a little secret...casting one ward, reactive or regen prevents or heals much more damage for the much less power. And my debuffs are a dozen times more useful than warden/fury debuffs which seem to do nothing in parses.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>That's 5 of my spell lines we're talking about by the way, and they are all SINGLE TARGET, no need to use them on multi mob encounters, recast timers wouldnt even let you. Also, casting one by itself does no difference in parses. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>Templars think other priests have these spells which do all these amazingly powerful things to enemies...they sound great on paper, but really, healing is the main way we prevent damage.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Prostrate is a 6 second stun with an appallingly long cast time and a 30 (?) second recast. It is a waste of space on your toolbar. I have tried manfully to find some sort of use for it but at the end of the day a 6 second stun (with the cast time it has) is just not long enough to usefully contribute anything.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>You wanna talk bad spell lines? Hey, I have a "bane of shielding" line which causes mobs to sometimes proc a ward on whoever they are hitting....the wards have a low proc chance, and block like 240 hp at level 52 and the ward doesnt even stack with my other wards. Clearly, no one casts this. In fact, no wards stack with eachother, and i have 7 different ways of warding a target, directly and indirectly. (by saying no wards stack, i mean each ward on a target is hit for full damage of whatever an enemies attack does, so they are all damaged fully). </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000> Every class has useless lines, even the "supposed" best debuffers in game, defilers.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I have never seen parsed data on the disgrace line. I assume it does something but it is impossible to tell. Again, sometimes I cast it, sometimes I don’t. It makes zero difference on the outcome of any fights I have been in. I would love for someone to demonstrate to me how this spell helps in any quantifiable way if only to reassure me I’m not wasting my time using it.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>I have parsed your mitigation debuff, it increases group dps by about 10% in a melee heavy group, just as the templar above me posted....thats much more effect than i can do with any one cast. Clicking one button which takes group DPS from 1600 to 1800 is you directly adding 200 dps to group.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Rez – ok I’m very happy with this change – it is one of the few things the CU improved for us.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>You missed out Glory of Combat which I include for the sake of being fair as it is a good spell. However, you only get it at 46 so the lower level Templars out there are stuffed.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>3) The pacify line is utterly rubbish as well. It won’t even pacify the whole of an encounter and still breaks at seemingly random intervals. I wouldn’t even use it for harvesting. Besides, if that is the best use for it you can come up with then I don’t need to say any more.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>As i said, if you guys want more out of combat utility, say it. People might agree.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>If you want to call for a fury nerf, say it. People might agree.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>But when you just complain that you're gimped compare to everyone, we think it's silly...because we know our secondary lines arent these encounter shattering debuffs or DPS like you claim. In fact, they are flavor to help differentiate us from eachother. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>A templar brings mainly healing to a group, but he also brings a little secondary healing.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>Just like a fury mainly brings healing to a group, he also brings a little DPS.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>Just like a defiler mainly brings healing to a group, he also brings a little debuffing.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>-----------------</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I know you guys must look at us saying what is the problem? You always healed great and you still heal great. Why are you moaning now? Whining Templars do my head in!</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I do feel your frustration from the post you made. In other games I have been on the other side of the fence wondering the same thing about some class which has started whining after changes were made.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>However, we really do have issues, big issues, and I guess I’m just asking you to trust us when we say there is a problem which we need to get sorted out. We aren’t just moaning for the sake of it. We certainly aren’t looking for nerfs, or to get back to the “good old days” or anything like that. We just want some equality and to make our class fun to play again.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>The "big issue" you have with your class is that your secondary ability, which is "more healing" doesnt really do that much.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>What you fail to realize is that NO priests secondary line does all that much. Slows, damage debuffs, attribute debuffs, resist debuffs, stuns, fears, stifles, whatever each priest class has. T</FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>hey are our secondary lines....just like your secondary line, you sometimes cast em, and you sometimes dont. They barely show up in parses. They don't have major affect on battle, and it's not very noticable, just like your proc heals and so on. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>What you don't realize is, they arent supposed to be the critical thing we bring to the group....that's why they are secondary. The primary thing we are supposed to bring to the group is............</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>Healing.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>Which is why we've all stopped complaining besides you...because our primary role, healing was borked for a long time, AND our secondary roles hardly did anything. So now, we're all in the same boat. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>Primary role works fine.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>Secondary role is slightly useful.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>And THAT's why we think you guys are screaming "the sky is falling".</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eldarn wrote: <blockquote> <hr> bigmak2010 wrote: <div></div> <div></div><span> <blockquote> <hr> Eldarn wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div>i'm sorry, maybe i'm taking the flame-bait here, but....what's with all the templar angst?</div> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <div>1) OK, stop saying you're at the bottom of the DPS food chain. Have any of you actually grouped with a fury? they do like 150 dps on full burn versus your 120 or a defiler's 130 or an mystics 110, ITS NOT A BIG DIFFERENCE!. Please, check it out the facts in game before jumping on the complainer's bandwagon.</div> <div> </div> <div>Yes, furies have a couple of big nukes....but the recast timers are super long. Look the spells up, do the math, or group with a fury. Either way, find out the truth.... over time they do like 20% more damage than you do. Furies do not do damage like a DPS class. If you're kicked from a group bc of a "DPS fury" your tank is a [Removed for Content]. Tell him to download EQ2parse and learn to read. Also, note that all priests suck hardcore in damage, not just you.</div> <div> </div></blockquote> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <p>Message Edited by Eldarn on <span class="date_text">11-08-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:22 PM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote>There's so much BS in this post but I'll just pick on the DPS.  Furies... 150 at full burn?  ROFLWhat level?  10?At 52 Fury at full burn is FIVE HUNDRED DPS using specials and THREE HUNDRED DPS not using those long recast specials.At 53 Templar at full burn is SEVENTY TWO DPS -- and that , my friend. was the HIGH the average was mid 50 something.<span>:smileysurprised:</span>on edit:  Yeah; healing is good.  No complaints.  Healing is getting balanced.  That's fine and dandy.  Our "utility" is our 'special heals' and LU16 is addressing those to start making that viable.  Doesn't explain the big DPS disparity.  Doesn't explain why a fury can drop a mob in 24 secs and the best the templar can hope for is 75 secs.  etc.. if, as a templar, all you do is group with decent DPS friends you are thinking "Templar is fine quit whining".  On the other hand, if you quest and solo and have actually observed the MASSIVE difference in time between how long it takes you vs. someone else... then you understand.  Or if you've been rejected from groups because the group wanted healing AND DPS so chose a Fury...etc.  A class dedicated to healing is only needed at one point in this game -- big nameds/raids.  That's the only time that extra few percent of healing from "utility" MIGHT make a difference.  So give us DPS equivalent to a Furies and shutup already.  We have "equal but different" utility and "equal but different" healing.. WHERE THE HELL IS OUR DPS?</span> <p>Message Edited by bigmak2010 on <span class="date_text">11-09-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:48 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>bigmak, do you even have a templar? </p> <p>a 53 templar doing 72 dps? a fury doing 500 dps? ok, im coming back with parses later on tonight. You're talking about outlier battles; yeah on a group of 4 heroics ^'s a fury can do like 300 dps IF and only if the team is full of AoE'ers cause the fight lasts 15 seconds and all they have to do is cast one spell. Once the fight lasts for a reasonable amount of time, the DPS drops because of recast timers. </p>And now that you said a lv 53 templar does 72 dps i know you're just making numbers up. The templar i was referring to was 53, but even the lower level templar in our guild, 51 does 110 dps in a group. <p>Yes, on outlier battles, a low 50's fury can do high DPS. On single mob targets, the numbers i posted earlier are accurate. Can a fury solo faster, sure, 25-30% faster because of their DPS.</p> <p>However, note that the nature of the argument has changed from "why are templars so useless" to "why do furies have so much dps"? </p> <p><strong>If you want a fury DPS nerf, call for it, don't complain that your class sucks in every way.</strong></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yep -- Fury at 300 dps -- at FULL BURN as you said.  I think they average around 200 in mid 50s? But saying Furies AT FULL BURN are at 150dps is BS that I'm calling you out on.  You just said yourself then can hit 300 so what's the arguement?  And be truthfull -- fights in good groups ARE SHORT that's one of the really big gameplay vs. number crunching problems here.  If fights are long and drawn out and a Templar gets to go all out DPS they -maybe- can get within 30% or whatever you're claiming of a Furies DPS.  That's not how the game plays and you darn well know it. You think Templar's are regularly cracking 110dps?   I'll grant you that I've upgraded a lot of gear since 53 so at 54 I think I may be pushing something around 100dps but I'll also say the Furies DPS is going up comparably at the same time  /shrug. So go fabricate a long drawn out fight to make the DPS look reasonable. </span><div></div>

[Supp]

<P>Im an L58 Warden. </P> <P>Here's my take on this. </P> <P>Pre-expansion, I felt that templars got all the love.</P> <P>I was supposed to be a DPS'ing priest. I picked it because I dont group often enough and needed to be able to solo, but that stopped at L45. I was so horribly inefficient, that I was dependant on a group to level. That's a hard realization at the end of your leveling. Templars got plate, which offered them a lot of excessively plate heavy raid drops that tanks already had, and so next it went to clerics. I felt that clerics got way too darn many options at the broker. I felt that they should only be able to wear plate, and that I should only be able to wear leather. Templars were always in the MT group and all other healers were optional.</P> <P>Then the expansion came out.</P> <P>Now Im rockin. My direct healing went into the toilet (less than half), but properly utilized (and properly respected), I could match or even beat a templar through my relentless regening, though a lot more clicking is required. I have evac, SoW (though we all know towards the end this doesnt matter), roots (new and greatly appreciated), dps was doubled (though still less than half of a Fury), hate is minimal, L55 and L58 specials that I absolutely am gaga over, and I look good to boot! </P> <P>Seriously though, I am overjoyed with the Warden now. What I cannot do is save someone from a beginning-of-encounter b!tchsmacking because I cannot direct heal, but that's fine, I believe in regens, always have. Templars got me beat in that situation. No one can beat the insta-needed health by a reactive at the beginning of an encounter. And regardless of what was said, The MT STILL gets b!tchsmacked at the beginning of an encounter.</P> <P>How do I feel about templars now? Im not upset anymore about the templar love, and I find myself wearing too much cloth to complain about a templar wearing plater/chain/leather/cloth (was upset about that because Im a resistance gear nut). Druid gear is way too rare, but there is enough general gear to where I dont care now. </P> <P>DPS problems? Me2. At 58, my dps is blah. Furies can hold their own, but they lack my uber healing, so who's knows if it's worth it to solo. I dont think temps should be complaining about DPS, because I cant either. Furies sacrificed a hell of a lot for a long time to be able to DPS. And now furies are screwed in the invis dept. Very costly for them to group invis, and the scaling of all invis has made them much less needed. And btw, my evac'ing is pretty commonly distributed amongst the non-scout subclasses, so it aint that sought after in terms of utility. I really just use it to save myself time. Most time peeps dont even know I have an evac. SK's have that problem too!</P> <P>Utility problems? This is where I think you've got a right to b!tch. You do need something. Doubling your DPS would accomplish nothing, I can assure you. Increasing your healing would just start this whole semantics problem all over again of "you knew all healing was supposed to be equal in the beginning!" over the real life interpretation of it. So I guess the real question is what utility would you like? I would die and go to warden heaven if they gave me dual wielding, not that's not a utility of course <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Oh by the way. Been meaning to ask this. Why arent the inquis's complaining? As I understand it, they were horribly unloved pre-expansion. What about now?</P><p>Message Edited by Supple on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:18 AM</span>

[Yarginis]

<P>I just want to add that as a Fury, I actually wish we could get more templars in our group. I love grouping with templars, and for those who say another healer can do your job +more, if that were the case then I wouldn't be asking on almost every raid for the leader to try an grab a templar specifically. Yes, we can make due without you (as it should be) but I know I at least personally would prefer to have you in the group if possible. Your reactives are a wonderful help, and having a healer that can pump out a heal with more than about 1/8th the MT's health is a huge help. (As a Fury my 46th lvl big heal is 650ish to 800ish @ ad3) Sure the recast is nice, but it'd really be nice to be able to heal instantly for well over 1000 without having to wait for the tan to drop below 50% (When BittF doubles heal) Expesially on the initial pull of nameds/epics your reactives would be a huge help in negating the initial button mashing that always occurs the first 10 seconds or so after pull. And if you think Fury's are contributing huge DPS in those situations I assure you that is not the case. If a Fury can go DPS in a Instance/Raid situation then the mobs you are fighting are probably well below your potential.</P> <P>Last night for example, we FINALLY took down General Rujark (55 epic 2x in clefts) on what was no less than our 4th attempt. My dps on the General was 0 I think (as was that of virtually every healer there) As it was once he called in the adds @ 50% life (yes we cleared them but the ones that respawned) I was chain casting every heal I had just to barley keep up. I didn't have the time-nore the power to think about nuking. I do however know that having a templar there with reactives would have made it SO much easier, and i wish more of you would come back. And I hope that hearing from a Fury that you are missed will convince you that you absence is in fact noticed.</P>

[Blast2hell]

<DIV>Just to clear up a couple of comments earlier, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Odyssey is no longer on a 10 minute timer, it's 3 minute.  Been this way since revamp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using Tremblar raid as an example, we always parse it,  Fury averaged about 490 dps, and templar averaged about 150 dps.  although only the fury had those high dps, all other priest were in the 100's.   Parse shows the same for the last 4 or 5 times in to kill tremblar on average.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In regular 6 man groups,  leveling from 50-60 I averaged 45-70 dps, and guild  fury's I grouped with averaged 160-210dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't support the templar argument for more utility, we have some powerful spells that are unique to us,  outside of our healing.  I feel healing and utility are fine, although some of our spells that could be considered utility need some tweaking, and thankfully test server shows some of that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will say, Priest DPS needs to be balanced better,  Templars are the bottom of the rung, and Fury's are the top rung.  I'm not calling for any nerfs,  we all hate the nerf bat.   I have yet to hear from anyone why priest shouldn' t have balanced DPS.   Well, anything reasonable that is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Blast2hell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Eldarn wrote:<BR></P> <DIV> <P></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN></P><SPAN><SPAN> <SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>That's the thing; you're NOT at the bottom of the DPS department. You templars do the same crappy DPS as defilers, wardens, mystics and inquisitors. (Furies can do more, and in some specific situations do good DPS.) When templars address it by saying "templars are useless compared to other priest classes bc of dps" it looks silly, because we all know we do the same crappy dps as you do, so it just sounds like whining. </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You need to parse more, or play with skilled players.  A templar can't touch an Inquisitors DPS.  I group with Salastine who plays an Inquistor, and a templar with all Master Damage spells couldn't touch an Inquistors dps...well at least one that knows how to play an Inqusitor as well as Salastine.</P> <P>I can't speak for defiler, warden, or mystic, as I haven't parsed there DPS very much.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <SPAN class=date_text>11-09-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:31 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:31 PM</span>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>bigmak2010 wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>Yep -- Fury at 300 dps -- at FULL BURN as you said.  I think they average around 200 in mid 50s?<BR><BR>But saying Furies AT FULL BURN are at 150dps is BS that I'm calling you out on.  You just said yourself then can hit 300 so what's the arguement?  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>The argument is that they hit 300 in a very specific situation, 4 or so mobs and a very short fight. I dont count that as a normal situation, it is optimized. Also note that my 53 cleric friend out DPS's my defiler by a decent margin in his optimal situation, VS undead. I don't consider that normal, or unfair, its his optimized situation. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>The numbers im using were on heroic ^^^'s and on ^^, ^^ mob types in SS and PoF. Usual regular mobs, heroics. Yeah on a group of 4 or 5 2arrow down mobs a fury can do 300 dps or whatever, but cmon how often does that happen. I'm talking about furies pulling 150 dps on medium length battles without HO's on regular mob pulls. Not using their 3 min recast specials or whatever that can only be used once every x number of battles anyway.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>Look bigmak, im not claiming that furies don't out DPS you. I'm just saying they are not doing DPS class dps. They dps better than other priests, its true, but they arent pulling 300 or 500 dps in general. In most cases they are doing 20% or so more than you or me. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>And as i said, if you wanna call for fury DPS nerf, go for it. However dont just jump on the "my priest sux because he cant dps like a fury" bandwagon. A fury also doesnt have 5 or however many lines of secondary and proc healing spells like you do, or 5 debuff lines like i do. Improved DPS is a furies secondary ability, just like mine is debuffing and yours is secondary healing abilities. They all bring flavor to the class and only a small boon to the group....hence the "secodary".</FONT></SPAN><SPAN><BR><BR>And be truthfull -- fights in good groups ARE SHORT that's one of the really big gameplay vs. number crunching problems here.  If fights are long and drawn out and a Templar gets to go all out DPS they -maybe- can get within 30% or whatever you're claiming of a Furies DPS.  That's not how the game plays and you darn well know it.<BR><BR>You think Templar's are regularly cracking 110dps?   I'll grant you that I've upgraded a lot of gear since 53 so at 54 I think I may be pushing something around 100dps but I'll also say the Furies DPS is going up comparably at the same time  /shrug. </SPAN><SPAN><BR><BR>So go fabricate a long drawn out fight to make the DPS look reasonable.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>What are you trying to argue here? That Templars have worse DPS than all other priests? Its simply not true. Wardens, Mystics, Defilers and Inqs all do the same crap DPS, so what's your point? If your point is that furies need a dps nerf, say it. OR if your point is that all non fury priests need a DPS boost, say it. </FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Kizee]

<DIV>I honestly could give a crap about out DPS. I didn't roll a templar to be able to put up the DPS numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I rolled a templar to be able to heal and buff good. All  that templars need are a few more nice buffs and they will be alset.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 AM</span>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blast2hell wrote: <P>You need to parse more, or play with skilled players.  A templar can't touch an Inquisitors DPS.  I group with Salastine who plays an Inquistor, and a templar with all Master Damage spells couldn't touch an Inquistors dps...well at least one that knows how to play an Inqusitor as well as Salastine.</P> <P>I can't speak for defiler, warden, or mystic, as I haven't parsed there DPS very much.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What kind of DPS are you talking here for the INQ, and what level? My friends lv 51 Inq does crap for damage, same ~100 dps as most other priests.<BR>

[UniformMarsha]

<DIV>I am going to disagree with the OP and for the following reasons.  Having had the oppourtunity to group with a Shaman AND a Fury as my Back up Healers (yes back up, the Templar is the main) and also my other characters with different healers this I have found to be true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Do NOT underestimate the ability to wear plate as the main healer.  I cannot emphazise the great [Removed for Content] kicking and death I have seen druids get when a mob gets a hold of them, in tight places with wierd LoS for spells I can stand right next to the tank and take less damage than the chain or leather wearer.  You need to be able to take a couple of hits, usually from an AE in order to keep your healing up.  Dead healers are useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Templars are more mana efficient and flexible.  Reactives cost less than direct or HoTs and stay on the tank untill used up, freeing the templar to toss heals to other members in the party.  Shamans and Druids have less flexibility in my opinion.  Direct heals alone do not keep a group alive in this game, you have to look at what its paired with.  Are direct heals more efficient mana wise and more flexible with Wards, Reactive or HoTs?  Wards dont absorb as much as Reactives and pull too much hate, HoTs are too slow to replenish health in an emergency situation.  Not to mention the 2 different lines of de buffs on a mob that proc healing for the party members</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) All the utility I want is in a scout, with his pathfinding and his evac it makes sow non essential EPSEICALLY given the fact that almost everyone buys a horse or does the carpet quest.  I can get group invise from a chanter or a rogue again no big deal and actually better since then I can concentrate on what I do best, keeping people alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have yet to experience this ditching of the Templar for another healing class. The groups I am in are always looking for Templar - Warden - Mystic- whatever is out there.</DIV>

[bigmak20]

<div></div>Since the 'nerf' word came up.. heck no don't nerf the furies.  The Fury class looks like a well balanced class to me.  They are the 'offensive' healer they should have good DPS.  But how can ppl nod their heads now saying 'true' when the 'defensive' class was nerfed to near equality in healing but left at the short end of the offensive part of the game?  How can one side of an equation be made equal per SOE's after-the-fact redefinition of classes when the offensive side of the class is left with the old line near uselessness? There are 2 choices here: 1) better healing so the less DPS tradeoff is worth it 2) more DPS for balance 3) if you say the few percent better healing we have now (debatable; LU16 may have helped?) is the solution to #1 then you'll have to come up with "utility"  because you can't apply the same counterpoint to 2 issues at once (DPS and utility). Traditional clerics want #1, priests with DPS don't want other priests to have #2 (and non-priests that aren't paying attention don't understand why we're asking), and #3 -- the utility debate -- ... on-edit: typo <p>Message Edited by bigmak2010 on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:22 AM</span>

[Blast2hell]

<P>---------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>Eldarn wrote:</P> <P>What kind of DPS are you talking here for the INQ, and what level? My friends lv 51 Inq does crap for damage, same ~100 dps as most other priests.<BR></P> <P>________________________________________-</P> <P>at 51, in clefts of rujark killing epic X2 level 54 encounters,  Salastine the inquistor  did 200+ dps on almost every encounter, he was only rolling as a backup healer, parses showed he did about half the healing I did.   This was over a 5 hour period.   Although, I am a templar, so I haven't a clue as to what spells he was casting in what order or how.  But to this day he still does that sort of DPS if he doesn't have to roll as the main healer.</P> <P>I will say that I've grouped with other inquistors and seen they don't do DPS as well, which leaves me to believe it's a skill/ability issue.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <SPAN class=date_text>11-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:36 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Blast2hell on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:36 PM</span>

[adaman]

<DIV>I agree with many of the opinions posted here. In 56 levels as templar I have never care about my dps and those long fight when soloing. I have chose to be an healer, my works is to heal, that's ok, worked fine for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I'd like to post some personal suggestion and considerations about our class...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are Templar, we wear heavy armor. This means for me that we can better take a melee fight than other classes that cannot mitigate (without spells) melee damage. Maybe for this reason we have no good dps or stun utility, ok.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMHO, it would be correct for a Templar to have:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- With damage spells we do always divine damage; the new Mark of ... is great, that's the way. But maybe is better to put on the effect some "increase mitigation vs physical damage" as it had before LU15</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- For same reason, Sign of Infirmity too need a little improvment - not for healing power but in it's utility, such as "decrease physical mitigation of target" of target by a little or "decrease STR of target", as was before LU15.</DIV> <DIV>Our only debuff for STR decreasing is only "weakness" (L7 spell... around -15 STR on target as adept III, that's useless)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- A group buffs that increase stats such STR and/or WIS (we are battle priest, why we have only a single target buff?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Add a "Increase mitigation of target vs physical damage" as before LU15 to Viglilant benediction</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- We need another power that can decrease the hate toward us. Were 3 before LU15, now just 1. Decrease recast time of Harmony spell line or add some effects to exiting power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- To equip a better version of shields can help when soloing (buckler is ridiculous... at least round and kite shield)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Think to remove those useless stun powers (maybe changing them to a target buff that can stun target for 2/3 seconds when u are hit by...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My consideration are not regarding "do more damage". Just to "fix" existing power to improve both our group/raid effectivitiness and our solo capability.</DIV><p>Message Edited by adaman on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[A]

Interesting.... But unless something REALLY insane has happened, like templars don't have reactives anymore, then I can't imagine templars being booted out of groups for another healer sub-class. Even after the patch, no healer heals like a templar. I'm sorry. There's no if, ands or buts.  I have yet to see any other healer heal 4k of damage from a group member in the matter of?  2-3 seconds.  Our reactives are our bread & butter (coupled with Atoning Fate...omg, what's the problem here, people!).  I think that, yes, other sub-class healers have much more utility (and now more healing)...but isn't that the point?  Shouldn't you choose classes for your group depending on the circumstances you're going to face?  I left the game 5 months ago.  At that time, my spot Greater Restoration Adept 3 did 948 hp heal....now, 1002-1294 (at level 50).  Should i complain??  most certainly NOT! A good warden, shaman, mystic, fury, etc are all very competent healers now.  And in the hands of a skilled player...an excellent complement to any group/raid. As they should be. 

[Daqrit]

<P>I dont understand why healers are discussing DPS. Who cares about DPS being a healer...</P> <P>Anyway to the OP. If you dont know where to go, come join the chanters in the UCA (Useless Class Anonymous) group. Our next meeting is this evening in Stonestairs at 8pm. </P>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Daqritox wrote:<p>I dont understand why healers are discussing DPS. Who cares about DPS being a healer...</p> <p>Anyway to the OP. If you dont know where to go, come join the chanters in the UCA (Useless Class Anonymous) group. Our next meeting is this evening in Stonestairs at 8pm. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>... because all healers have near equal healing and some healers have significant DPS and Utility in addition to healing while others do not -- i.e. it's terribly out of balance. </span><div></div>

[Meribor]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Daqritox wrote:<p>I dont understand why healers are discussing DPS. Who cares about DPS being a healer...</p><hr></blockquote></span>I don't care about DPS as a healer and I can still heal just fine ... what I do care about is the fact that I can no longer solo supposedly soloable quests and have fun doing it like I did before the combat update and that's assuming (huge assumption) I can solo them at all.  My tendency in mmorpg's has generally been caster first with healer alt ... this time I decided to go healer first with caster alt when I started EQ2 in July.  It was slow but I really, really enjoyed most aspects of my templar and decided to make her my main.  After the revamp, I finished a few of the quests that I could still finish and dinged level 31 then shelved my templar.  The longer it goes without something to bring the fun back for me on my templar, then the closer I'm coming to naming my necromancer my main.  I hate the fact that I am now ... not just some of the time but most of the time ... dependant on others for personal quests.  My understanding from what I've read on these forums is that high level templars have a lot fewer issues with the revamp than the lower level templars still trying to level, especially if they need to rely on pickup groups like I do.  In my opinion, the excessive interrupts, stuns, and fizzles are even more aggravating to me than my already low dps and are the biggest reason it's no longer fun to play my templar. <p>Message Edited by Meribor on <span class="date_text">11-10-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:40 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Meribor on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:41 AM</span>

[steelblueangel]

<P>My inquisitor is very cool to look at especially when she is sitting on her horse. But thats as good as it gets she looks good. I re-rolled another toon and only knock the dust off my inquisitor when I need to harvest. My inquisitor is a level 51 so she is able to harvest very well for my new toons trade skill items. I stopped playing her after update 13 when she was no longer fun to play anymore. My inquisitor is trivial at fizzle. She gets interrupted more than she cast. She heals like an grandma driving on a freeway .... very slowly.... by the time she gets off her biggest heal it's oops sorry u died but ... wait ... yeah I can rez u .... opps sorry.... I got interrupted and now Im dead too... My inquisitor is trival at shard recovery also. it became an easter egg hunt game before I quit playing her. Fighting solo to finish up minor quest took forever... swat... cast ... fizzle... fizzle... interrupt... cast... interrupt... interrupt... interupt.. swat... interrupt... interrupt...boring boring boring...yawn... yawn.. rinse, wash and repeat. Fights are forever because inquisitors take forever to .. well swat like a girl.. and then casting is so sloooow... the interrupts are annoying and deadly. So I dust her off now and then to forage or help a guildie other than that I play my new toon. Before its all said and done there will not be any Templers or Inquisitors in the game, most have already quit or rolled another toon like me. If i knew then what i know now I WOULD NEVER have made an inquisitor and I will never make a Templar thats for sure too. </P> <P>Good luck fellow Templars and Inquisitors, my advice re-roll a toon. Nothing is going to change for our classes. Our classes are a phased out dead and forgotten class. There is alot to the game to enjoy and I am enjoying playing my new class. Yes I hated starting all over again but until another game comes out that I want to play online other than eq I'll stay. If another game comes out that I can enjoy I'll quickly pack my bags and be on my way. There are some new games coming online soon and I look forward to playing some of them. </P> <P>Until then stay safe .. fizzle,fizzle, SAFE.. interrrupt... interrupt.. IN YOUR...interrupt.. fizzle.. interrupt.. TRAVELS... lol wink : ) </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Joos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meribor wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daqritox wrote:<BR> <P>I dont understand why healers are discussing DPS. Who cares about DPS being a healer...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN>I don't care about DPS as a healer and I can still heal just fine ... what I do care about is the fact that I can no longer solo supposedly soloable quests and have fun doing it like I did before the combat update and that's assuming (huge assumption) I can solo them at all.  <BR><BR>My tendency in mmorpg's has generally been caster first with healer alt ... this time I decided to go healer first with caster alt when I started EQ2 in July.  It was slow but I really, really enjoyed most aspects of my templar and decided to make her my main.  After the revamp, I finished a few of the quests that I could still finish and dinged level 31 then shelved my templar.  <BR><BR>The longer it goes without something to bring the fun back for me on my templar, then the closer I'm coming to naming my necromancer my main.  I hate the fact that I am now ... not just some of the time but most of the time ... dependant on others for personal quests.  My understanding from what I've read on these forums is that high level templars have a lot fewer issues with the revamp than the lower level templars still trying to level, especially if they need to rely on pickup groups like I do.  <BR><BR>In my opinion, the excessive interrupts, stuns, and fizzles are even more aggravating to me than my already low dps and are the biggest reason it's no longer fun to play my templar.<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Meribor on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:40 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Meribor on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:41 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Meribor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Inquisitor is 54 and I must admidt my quest entries are maxed because it takes so long to kill a mob. My ranger friend and I started doing some solo quests and he was giving me a hard time because I was only half way complete with one quest when he had finished 2 and logged out, not much fun there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Joosul</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<DIV>Well here on the home front I have just interviewed a Dev in training.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mr. Developer what do you think of the issues brought up by the Templar community? "Well since none of us Developers that actually play EQ2 would ever play a Cleric class (when I could be playing WOW) your concerns really do not bother me. Now if they nerfed my Fury, well someone would be unemployed."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Et. Cetera, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont even have the heart anymore to complain. I rerolled a Fury and am looking forward to something new coming out. Lack of Dev Response here just kills me.</DIV>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blast2hell wrote:<BR> <P>---------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>Eldarn wrote:</P> <P>What kind of DPS are you talking here for the INQ, and what level? My friends lv 51 Inq does crap for damage, same ~100 dps as most other priests.<BR></P> <P>________________________________________-</P> <P>at 51, in clefts of rujark killing epic X2 level 54 encounters,  Salastine the inquistor  did 200+ dps on almost every encounter, he was only rolling as a backup healer, parses showed he did about half the healing I did.   This was over a 5 hour period.   Although, I am a templar, so I haven't a clue as to what spells he was casting in what order or how.  But to this day he still does that sort of DPS if he doesn't have to roll as the main healer.</P> <P>I will say that I've grouped with other inquistors and seen they don't do DPS as well, which leaves me to believe it's a skill/ability issue.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Last night my guild had its usual late night group: 52 defiler, 52 (he leveled) inquisitor, 54 templar 51 fury along w tank and a coercer (yeah, teh uber group makeup, we know). We ran around in shimmering citadel for over 2 hrs xping and doing some light questing. As usual i spent a good deal of the evening parsing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think I may have notied a trend in DPS for priests which some of you may be aware of. First of all, we took turns being the only healer for the group so that we could get some decent parses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, of course, many of us slacked at times, and pulled like 25 dps....but on specific battles I asked people to push their DPS without using any of the 3-4 minute reuse special abilities. The results were a bit shocking. Many of these battles were in the towers, so lots of them were large groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On single target ^^^ heroics:</DIV> <DIV>inq: 90 dps</DIV> <DIV>temp: 90 dps</DIV> <DIV>defiler: 120 dps</DIV> <DIV>fury: 130 dps</DIV> <DIV>guardian: 230 dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On groups of 3 heroics</DIV> <DIV>inq: 130 dps</DIV> <DIV>temp: 120 dps</DIV> <DIV>defiler: 70 dps</DIV> <DIV>fury: 180 dps</DIV> <DIV>guardian: 200 dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>On groups of ~5 heroics</DIV> <DIV>inq: 150 dps</DIV> <DIV>temp: 130 dps</DIV> <DIV>defiler: 50 dps</DIV> <DIV>fury: 250 dps</DIV> <DIV>guardian: 170 dps</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Essentially, as the groups got larger, the fury and the inquisitor did more and more damage, where as the guardian and the defiler got lower and lower. The temp didnt have the same boost in damage, but didnt drop down either. I don't know whats up with the guard, he probably had to spend more time getting agro i assume on larger groups....however as a defiler, i know why my output sucked. My largest nuke is for 230. Yep, im not lying. All of my damage comes from 6 weakish DOT spells. Most of these have a 2-3 second cast time....so in order to reach my damage potential i need about 14 seconds of casting DoT's on a target. Clearly, i dont get that 14 seconds when fighting a group of 3-4 heroics, they all die too fast, and i literally full burn cant output more than 60 dps in that situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can also see that furies big numbers seem to come in the opposite situation, however when there are less and less mobs to kill, their long recast nukes end up keeping their DPS about as low as the other priests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd say that my point here is that DPS number's don't exist in a vaccum.  Every class wants more DPS, sure, even defilers. I used to do 150-180 DPS at level 38 before the revamp...so I know how it feels to lose potency. But to compare DPS, at least use a fury's optimal (like in a 5 target situation) DPS to your optimal DPS (like against 3 undead targets).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Against a single target, I can out DPS you templars by a notable margin. Against a solo mob when i can get my procs to work and so on, I can get near 140 DPS. However in groups, pulls are as likely to be larger than just one, and i dont have enough time to get procs to work or stack 6 DoT's....especially on 2-3 targets. Generally, equal level templars outdamage me in groups, just because of how my spells work. I simply dont have the time to stack 6 spells while you guys can get some decent output by casting 2-3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, i still concede and agree that all priest classes should be able to do fury style damage when soloing. There's no reason that we shouldn't all pull at least 180-200 dps in the mid 50's....anything less is unfair...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, in a group, I know that this doesnt matter. No one, and I mean no one, is inviting me to a group, or not inviting me for that matter because of my DPS. To be honest, i dont get invited to many groups, why?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because IM THE ONE FORMING them, rather than sitting lfg worrying about where my next invite will be taken by a temp, who some people think can out heal me, or a fury, who some ppl can think can out DPS me. I form the group, i pick the spot, i invite who i want.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i have easy pick from my templar, and fury friends, who sit LFG lots of the time, because they both get invited to groups at the same slow rate, each probably silently worrying about how the other is going to get picked because of ubbah DPS or ubbah healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daqritox wrote:<BR> <P>I dont understand why healers are discussing DPS. Who cares about DPS being a healer...</P> <P>Anyway to the OP. If you dont know where to go, come join the chanters in the UCA (Useless Class Anonymous) group. Our next meeting is this evening in Stonestairs at 8pm. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why do people post stuff like this?</P> <P>Top 5 reasons to stop asking priests why they care about DPS:</P> <P> </P> <P>5. sometimes you sit lfg for a long time without an invite, and so you end up soloing</P> <P>4. sometimes your guild or friends aren't on to group with, and so you end up soloing</P> <P>3. sometimes there aren't enough people on LFG to form a group with, and so you end up soloing</P> <P>2. sometimes we want to play for 15-20 min....not enough time to meet up w a group, and so you end up soloing</P> <P> </P> <P>and the number one reason priests need to DPS is......</P> <P> </P> <P>1) BECAUSE 80% of quests in the game are SOLO...AND YOU END UP SOLOING!</P> <P> </P> <P>thanks for playing</P>

[Jida]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eldarn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eldarn wrote:<BR> <DIV>i'm sorry, maybe i'm taking the flame-bait here, but....what's with all the templar angst?</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>1) OK, stop saying you're at the bottom of the DPS food chain. Have any of you actually grouped with a fury? they do like 150 dps on full burn versus your 120 or a defiler's 130 or an mystics 110, ITS NOT A BIG DIFFERENCE!. Please, check it out the facts in game before jumping on the complainer's bandwagon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, furies have a couple of big nukes....but the recast timers are super long. Look the spells up, do the math, or group with a fury. Either way, find out the truth.... over time they do like 20% more damage than you do. Furies do not do damage like a DPS class. If you're kicked from a group bc of a "DPS fury" your tank is a [Removed for Content]. Tell him to download EQ2parse and learn to read. Also, note that all priests suck hardcore in damage, not just you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Eldarn on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:22 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There's so much BS in this post but I'll just pick on the DPS.  Furies... 150 at full burn?  ROFL<BR><BR>What level?  10?<BR><BR>At 52 Fury at full burn is FIVE HUNDRED DPS using specials and THREE HUNDRED DPS not using those long recast specials.<BR><BR>At 53 Templar at full burn is SEVENTY TWO DPS -- and that , my friend. was the HIGH the average was mid 50 something.<BR><BR><SPAN>:smileysurprised:</SPAN><BR><BR>on edit:  Yeah; healing is good.  No complaints.  Healing is getting balanced.  That's fine and dandy.  Our "utility" is our 'special heals' and LU16 is addressing those to start making that viable.  Doesn't explain the big DPS disparity.  Doesn't explain why a fury can drop a mob in 24 secs and the best the templar can hope for is 75 secs.  etc<BR><BR>.. if, as a templar, all you do is group with decent DPS friends you are thinking "Templar is fine quit whining".  On the other hand, if you quest and solo and have actually observed the MASSIVE difference in time between how long it takes you vs. someone else... then you understand.  Or if you've been rejected from groups because the group wanted healing AND DPS so chose a Fury...etc.  A class dedicated to healing is only needed at one point in this game -- big nameds/raids.  That's the only time that extra few percent of healing from "utility" MIGHT make a difference.  So give us DPS equivalent to a Furies and shutup already.  <BR><BR>We have "equal but different" utility and "equal but different" healing.. WHERE THE HELL IS OUR DPS?<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by bigmak2010 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>bigmak, do you even have a templar? </P> <P>a 53 templar doing 72 dps? a fury doing 500 dps? ok, im coming back with parses later on tonight. You're talking about outlier battles; yeah on a group of 4 heroics ^'s a fury can do like 300 dps IF and only if the team is full of AoE'ers cause the fight lasts 15 seconds and all they have to do is cast one spell. Once the fight lasts for a reasonable amount of time, the DPS drops because of recast timers. </P>And now that you said a lv 53 templar does 72 dps i know you're just making numbers up. The templar i was referring to was 53, but even the lower level templar in our guild, 51 does 110 dps in a group. <P>Yes, on outlier battles, a low 50's fury can do high DPS. On single mob targets, the numbers i posted earlier are accurate. Can a fury solo faster, sure, 25-30% faster because of their DPS.</P> <P>However, note that the nature of the argument has changed from "why are templars so useless" to "why do furies have so much dps"? </P> <P><STRONG>If you want a fury DPS nerf, call for it, don't complain that your class sucks in every way.</STRONG></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>im 58 and the max dps i can do is 110. Full burn no healing on a blue ^^^ undead. If the mob is not undead max i can do is 80. I have multiple parses i can post showing a 58 fury doing 300+ dps with starfall and such against Yellow level 59-60 ^^^ Cyclops. </P> <P>I perfer to be buffed for soloing.. in groups additional dps for templars is not needed so much IMO. But thats my opinion</P> <P>Elder</P>

[quasigenx]

46 Templar here. <ul> <li>I have never been booted from a group for any reason.</li> <li>I can usually find a guild/random group (50/50) within 10 minutes.</li> <li>I think Templars are still the kings of healing, due to "utility" heal spells as another poster mentioned. I still routinely out-heal higher level non-Templars in parses. Those "utility" spells rock, use them. </li> <li>Prostrate is a great utility spell that most Templars think is useless. 5.5 second stuns can equate to 800-1000 (at my level) points of damage you don't have to heal.</li> <li>Our new mez line is very useful:</li> <ul> <li>In solo, if you are fighting more than one mob. Mez doesn't have to be up 100% of the time to mitigate a worth-while amount of damage.</li> <li>In groups, if you are fighting more than one mob. Most (good) groups focus on on mob at a time, and you can mitigate a worth-while amount of damage by tossing a mez out there. I don't even tell people I'm doing it, and breaking is usually not a problem. Circumstances (AE) may dictate that it won't work in every group. No big deal.</li> </ul> <li>We can wear plate. This flat out looks cooler (a non-negligable benefit), and usually means I'm the last healer standing in a close fight.</li> </ul> Just my 2cp. <div></div>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jida wrote:<BR><BR> <P><BR>im 58 and the max dps i can do is 110. Full burn no healing on a blue ^^^ undead. If the mob is not undead max i can do is 80. I have multiple parses i can post showing a 58 fury doing 300+ dps with starfall and such against Yellow level 59-60 ^^^ Cyclops. </P> <P><EM>I perfer to be buffed for soloing.. in groups additional dps for templars is not needed so much IMO. But thats my opinion</EM></P> <P>Elder</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, amen. All priests should do near 200 DPS while soloing in the mid 50's. </P> <P>Doing damage in a group is fun, but really, we dont need to...which is why i have no problem w fury group damage.</P> <P><BR></P>

[noggin]

Love the changes from LU13. Many people hate, and have even quit their class, because of it. I personally don't understand it myself. I can't solo as well as _______, but frankly don't care. I can solo, you can solo, we all can solo, but as soon as someone does it better than us? what then? <span>:smileysad:</span><span>:smileymad:</span> Now we're <span>:smileymad:that the same archtype does one or 3 things better than us? Pulease. If spells/skills are the only defining thing that get you into groups, invited to raids, and on people's "friends list", you're missing half of what the game offers, and what you offer to the game. The common underlying theme? YOU. And if there are "friends" out there that are  "dropping me from group" because they want some DPS + Healing, maybe it's time to find some different friends, or at least a different group of people with whom to group. I know I had an excruciating time right after trying to do the same things after LU13 that I was doing before LU13. People were dying left and right and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing at me like nobody's business. I was ready to quit, but went off by myself and had to re-learn and adapt to the changes. Asked a few friends go bare with me and lets go kill some stuff so we can all re-learn our skills/spells. It was tough. No doubt about it. But we all overcame and are better for it. As an aside, I would challenge any other healer-type, of the same level,  to out heal my templar. I dare ya. <span>:smileywink:</span> I'll be waiting for several group invites this weekend. hehehe I dunno, maybe you've had a few bad days worth of luck. Maybe the problem lies elsewhere. Maybe I'm just full of it and don't know jack. What? It's possible. Slim, but possible. <span>:smileyhappy: Game on... </span> </span>

[Druzgotek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> steelblueangel wrote:<BR> <P>My inquisitor is very cool to look at especially when she is sitting on her horse. But thats as good as it gets she looks good. I re-rolled another toon and only knock the dust off my inquisitor when I need to harvest. My inquisitor is a level 51 so she is able to harvest very well for my new toons trade skill items. I stopped playing her after update 13 when she was no longer fun to play anymore. My inquisitor is trivial at fizzle. She gets interrupted more than she cast. She heals like an grandma driving on a freeway .... very slowly.... by the time she gets off her biggest heal it's oops sorry u died but ... wait ... yeah I can rez u .... opps sorry.... I got interrupted and now Im dead too... My inquisitor is trival at shard recovery also. it became an easter egg hunt game before I quit playing her. Fighting solo to finish up minor quest took forever... swat... cast ... fizzle... fizzle... interrupt... cast... interrupt... interrupt... interupt.. swat... interrupt... interrupt...boring boring boring...yawn... yawn.. rinse, wash and repeat. Fights are forever because inquisitors take forever to .. well swat like a girl.. and then casting is so sloooow... the interrupts are annoying and deadly. So I dust her off now and then to forage or help a guildie other than that I play my new toon. Before its all said and done there will not be any Templers or Inquisitors in the game, most have already quit or rolled another toon like me. If i knew then what i know now I WOULD NEVER have made an inquisitor and I will never make a Templar thats for sure too. </P> <P>Good luck fellow Templars and Inquisitors, my advice re-roll a toon. Nothing is going to change for our classes. Our classes are a phased out dead and forgotten class. There is alot to the game to enjoy and I am enjoying playing my new class. Yes I hated starting all over again but until another game comes out that I want to play online other than eq I'll stay. If another game comes out that I can enjoy I'll quickly pack my bags and be on my way. There are some new games coming online soon and I look forward to playing some of them. </P> <P>Until then stay safe .. fizzle,fizzle, SAFE.. interrrupt... interrupt.. IN YOUR...interrupt.. fizzle.. interrupt.. TRAVELS... lol wink : ) </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Lol, that is pretty much how I feel now. My inquisitor just does not feel fun or even like he can do much of anything. O well, I am having fun blowing pp on twinks.

[Nanite]

<DIV>The problem with you templar's is that your just too stupid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Seriously, I'm a fury, I solo a lot, and I've willingly taken a hit in my ability to heal *to be able to solo well*. How? simple, my int is way higher then my wis. My int it 244, my wis is 178. Lower then most healers, I know, but I do insane damage. While most templars I see have like 50 int. There's the problem folks. Adding 200 int is gonna make your spells do a helluva lot more damage. Now this isn't entirely the templar's fault. 90 of that int comes from my two adept3 buffs, but I also specifically bought +int items over anything else, even wis. The problem is, you can find +int light armor, but try finding +int plate. Probably isn't much if any. Now I know the int divide isn't the ONLY reason that furies do more damage, our spells rock, etc. But to all you temps whining about your not having anything over furies I have one word for you: PLATE! Platemail on a healer is AWESOME in a group, because when the tank loses agro (It's gonna happen eventually even with the best tank), the first one to get the agro is the wiz, who dies in two hits. Then who get's the agro? Yup, the healer. A dead fury isn't doing anybody any good. So here's what I suggest: Get rid of your useless mez, and get an int buff, and in the mean time, get as much +int jewelry as you can if want to solo, even if you gotta take a hit on the +wis stuff (but usually you can find stuff that does both), and get a couple linen +12int dolls instead of the +wis ones. It's a sacrifice, but you can solo decently and be an ok healer, or you can be an uber healer, and forget soloing, gotta pick one, can't have both.</DIV>

[Mat]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>However, nothing else was significantly changed. This means that Templar nukes still have a base damage approximately one-third that of Furies. It means Templars still have no vitally useful utility, like root, SoW, Snare, Evac, Slow, Group Invis ... and the list goes on ... all abilities available to various of the other priest classes.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have Odyssey which has fast recast time and I love it especially at questing. SoW and Invis can be covered with Totems but not Odyssey.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding balancing clases, I do agree that it is lame to do that. Each class should have their own characteristic and role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For solo issue, yes we are terrible at soloing. In return we receive less damage from the same mob compared to other healer classes as we can wear plate armors. White ^^^s hit me like 80 -100 when I am in full buffed T6 treasured platemail compared to others who went down in 4 hits. Plus we can now equip orbs. A pearl orb gives 60 resist to all physical types of attack now. Heck we have RH which could do immediate heals unlike regeneration which IMO not that reliable in such critical situations. So we should be proud that we are templars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, if you want more damage output, boost your int and grab an ironwood wand with 14wis and do magic damage by using it. I could solo a grp of Lv53-54 Heroeic easily at Lv60. We have a lot advantage in grp IMO so I would say templars are doing fine. The only thing that I do not like about templar is, both cast and recast time for healing spell are too hella long.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fury IS NOT the best healer class. It is the players who are keeping the good job. Althought it would be nice to have more damage output for soloing,  I am satisfied with current situation. Wish I am not the only templar that thinks this way. :p </DIV><p>Message Edited by Matek on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:00 PM</span>

[Kingm]

<div></div>Clerics are the lamest class in the game (IMO). You don't have to agree, and I am sure many of you don't. I have shelved my 53 Inqy and just use her to feed other toons. It's not funny how much more satisfying other classes are in this game. You have to be easily entertained to play a cleric. If we are not superior healers by far then we should have our dps and utility increased so that it is in line with druids. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kingman on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:01 AM</span>

[Druzgotek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kingman wrote:<BR> Clerics are the lamest class in the game (IMO). You don't have to agree, and I am sure many of you don't.<BR><BR>I have shelved my 53 Inqy and just use her to feed other toons.<BR><BR>It's not funny how much more satisfying other classes are in this game.<BR><BR>You have to be easily entertained to play a cleric.<BR><BR>If we are not superior healers by far then we should have our dps and utility increased so that it is in line with druids.<BR><BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Kingman on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:01 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Very true, I was bored/feeling worthless so finally I made my first real alt, a pet class. Wow, the pet alone soloes better than my inqusitor does.</DIV> <DIV>Now if i could just transfer exp from my inquisitor to my alt, I would do it, since I always hate levelling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imo the game is fun now for dps classes. They should give clerics a good pet, that depops in groups or something similar, to make it solo only tool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cowdenic]

I love it when Druids state, "Well you can use heavy armor and we cant." What they fail to tell you is they can use slashing weapons and crushing weapons when they choose. Yes while we can use most of the armor in the game they can use most of the weapons in the game. There is the balance for the armor.

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>Oh is that so cow? yes druids can use 1h swords like scimitars does that balance out the vast choice templars have of armor? lol dont make me laugh youre full of it.</DIV> <DIV>we cant use all swords/weapons in game what are you talking about btw yeah those 1 h swords have sweet stats for a priest lol come on man.</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <DIV>Oh is that so cow? yes druids can use 1h swords like scimitars does that balance out the vast choice templars have of armor? lol dont make me laugh youre full of it.</DIV> <DIV>we cant use all swords/weapons in game what are you talking about btw yeah those 1 h swords have sweet stats for a priest lol come on man.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>they do when soloing.

[quetzaqotl]

<P>K tell me what advantage I have soloing with my scimitar instead of a mace, tell me how much that is gonna help soloing?</P> <P>You think that me being able to use a scimitar is balanced against you being able to wear every piece of gear in game (ecept for class only gear of course)?</P> <P>I bet you think it does lol ah well.</P> <P>our bonus weapon choice (only 1h swords btw for druids and spears for shamans) is fluff whereas the armor choice is much more than fluff.</P> <p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:37 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>K tell me what advantage I have soloing with my scimitar instead of a mace, tell me how much that is gonna help soloing?</P> <P>You think that me being able to use a scimitar is balanced against you being able to wear every piece of gear in game (ecept for class only gear of course)?</P> <P>I bet you think it does lol ah well.</P> <P>our bonus weapon choice (only 1h swords btw for druids and spears for shamans) is fluff whereas the armor choice is much more than fluff.</P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:37 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>by your same reasoning then our additional armor choices are then fluff.

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>K tell me what advantage I have soloing with my scimitar instead of a mace, tell me how much that is gonna help soloing?</P> <P>You think that me being able to use a scimitar is balanced against you being able to wear every piece of gear in game (ecept for class only gear of course)?</P> <P>I bet you think it does lol ah well.</P> <P>our bonus weapon choice (only 1h swords btw for druids and spears for shamans) is fluff whereas the armor choice is much more than fluff.</P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:37 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>by your same reasoning then our additional armor choices are then fluff. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>all i can say is lol and I give up hehe theres no point but please continue to make stupid posts like that cow, make me laugh :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>K tell me what advantage I have soloing with my scimitar instead of a mace, tell me how much that is gonna help soloing?</P> <P>You think that me being able to use a scimitar is balanced against you being able to wear every piece of gear in game (ecept for class only gear of course)?</P> <P>I bet you think it does lol ah well.</P> <P>our bonus weapon choice (only 1h swords btw for druids and spears for shamans) is fluff whereas the armor choice is much more than fluff.</P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:37 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>by your same reasoning then our additional armor choices are then fluff. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>all i can say is lol and I give up hehe theres no point but please continue to make stupid posts like that cow, make me laugh :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are right Quetz in one regard, there is no point, because you will not admit that there are 2 huge disparities that need to be addressed. A. your Group Specialty heal (Regen) is up to 4 times more effective thatn anybody elses other than Wardens. B There is an extremely large soloing disparity even within the healer ranks.</P> <P>These issues need to be adressed and corrected. Of course that wont happen because people keep hijacking and flaming any thread that Templars post in. Which results in a lock and a move. Not to mention getting people off topic.</P> <P>SO I will volunteer to be the honest Templar here. One of 2 things need to happen.</P> <P>A. They boost all healers to be able to solo as well as Furies and boost all healers soloability across the board (preferred method) and fix the group regen so it has a max of 9 ticks between the group over 10 seconds.</P> <P>or B. They need to NERF Furies and Wardens Group Regens and Nerf Furies ability to do burst Damage down. (really dont want to see this happen.)</P> <P>Thats it, very simple and very easy.</P>

[Cowdenic]

<P>A Post Script on the last post.</P> <P>Quetz, I actually like you. Dont take anything I say personal. Some of your Warden and Fury friends on these boards are quite rude and offensive, but I like you. </P> <P>Let you and I agree to disagree, and keep everything civil. </P>

[Tro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where is the Templar class to go now, with EQUAL HEALING and almost nothing else?<BR>================================================== =============</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is now over a month since the LU13 update. The update contained much that was good for the long term benefit of the game. However, it also did quite a lot of harm in some areas, and has upset and alienated some sections of the playerbase. In that time, some of the problems have been addressed, and some classes have had answers given to their questions. This post is to ask for some attention to be given to the Templar issues, which have attracted precisely zero (perceived) attention from SOE, despite a huge outcry on the Templar forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The essence of the problem is this: many Templars are feeling side-lined. Players chose the Templar class at release to be Healers. We chose Templar over the other healing classes because they were the 'purest healer' of all, and for those of us who are ex-EQ1 players, the closest to the Cleric class from that game. We analyzed the class, and saw that it had less utility than the other priests, and did a lot less DPS, but we also saw that it was by far the most powerful healing class, so we were happy and made our choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333>Ten months on, SOE decide to implement the "all priests must heal equally" principle, something that  was certainly not true at EQII launch. The experiences of most Templars now is that SOE have largely succeeded, and healing is now approximately balanced across all the six priest classes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, nothing else was significantly changed. This means that Templar nukes still have a base damage approximately one-third that of Furies. It means Templars still have no vitally useful utility, like root, SoW, Snare, Evac, Slow, Group Invis ... and the list goes on ... all abilities available to various of the other priest classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This has lead to Templars who are not in hardcore raiding guilds, and who are not protected in fixed groups of friends or large guilds that give them groups every day, are sitting idle, unable to compete for group spots against other Priest classes more than capable of keeping groups alive in normal XP grinding / questing circumstances, and only able to solo at one third the rate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In turn, this has caused many Templar players to become demoralized, and many, like myself, have taken to start another class, only to see clearly how badly off we are now in this regard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Templar class needs some attention now. SOE, you cannot leave us as EQUAL HEALERS but at the same time, ONE-THIRD contributors in terms of damage and utility - noone will invite us to groups, and we cannot solo effectively compared to those other healing classes. The so-called 'healing utility' lines are too weak and too random (as well as requiring no skill, and hence are boring) to be useful outside very difficult content and outside raids - for small group and soloing situations, they are basically useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are countless suggestions on the Templar board on how this might be addressed. Nerfing other classes is not the answer either, some of them are fun, what is needed is a review of what you actually want from the Templar class, and to tell us where you see us as heading. Because right now, no-one in their right mind who has knowledge of the other healing classes, would choose a Templar as a duo partner or a healer in a group of 3 or 4, doing normal things, because other healers are just as good at healing (in the sense, they can keep the group alive) AND they can offer much more with their spare power. Parses of ~90dps for tier6 Templars are comparing to ~350+ dps for say teir6 Furies, these are appearing all over these forums, yet the healing is effectively equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The morale of Templars is at an all time low as a result. Are we going to get any sort of response from SOE on this please? Tell us please, what do you intend for our class, as our role, in solo and small group and normal XP group settings? Or do you intend all Templars who are not hardcore raiders to either re-roll as another class or just accept being across-the-board weaklings, seen as XP leeches by others, the healer to take when they can get noone else?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [33 Fury]<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I feel for ya and have to agree. I play a Guardian as my main and my Wife plays a Templar.. Although we have adapted to the changes and will likely stay with EQ2 atleast until Vanguard comes out.. </P> <P>The reason why I would still leave EQ2 even though we are still having fun (Never thought I would say that post LU 13), is the way LU 13 was implemented. </P> <P>You talk about "Ten months on, SOE decide to implement the "all priests must heal equally". This is my problem.. When he/she and my wife and I first rolled our characters months ago, after researching the characters we wanted to roll, we made our decision. Had I read anywhere in the EQ2 manual that shipped with the CD's or on any SoE EQ2 website something to the following: "We will be implementing some major changes to character spell lines and to the game mechanics in a few months that will essentially result in you having a "new" character. This means you will have to "Relearn" how to play your "New" character" and it's role in the game may infact change". </P> <P>Nowhere did I read such a statement. The fact is is that EQ2 was infact released well before it was ready. SoE decided to "Rush" it out the door and release it around the time WoW was being released in an attempt to get as many WoW customers as possible. Thats the reality of it all.. It was simply a greedy decision that resulted in SoE's "Paying" customer to take it in the shorts months down the road. </P> <P>LU 13 was a major change in the game and if the game wasn't working as intended then they should have finished it BEFORE releasing it. Period.. </P> <P>They figured they would "Fix" things as they go.. Well we got our "Fix" didn't we.. </P> <P>We (My wife and I) tried several other games after we tested LU13 changes for about 2 weeks.. Took three weeks and could not find another game that we liked so here we are waiting for some EQ2 competition..  Once we find a game we both like, we will cease giving SoE our money considering the way they chose to screw the customer in favor of lining their wallets.. It's a [Removed for Content] shame... I feel for all of you that are around for revamp number 2 or 3 or 4.. It's gonna happen.. we all know it.. it's just a matter of time..  </P> <P>My 2cp..</P><p>Message Edited by Trook on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:14 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>You are right Quetz in one regard, there is no point, because you will not admit that there are 2 huge disparities that need to be addressed. A. your Group Specialty heal (Regen) is up to 4 times more effective thatn anybody elses other than Wardens. B There is an extremely large soloing disparity even within the healer ranks.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Templars can throw more healing at a main tank within a five second period of time than any other priest.  I understand that under the right circumstances, Druid regenerations can spread out throughout a group to heal more damage overall.  However, my group reactive (9 triggers), plus my solo reactive  (5 triggers) plus reverence (tank heals him or herself for 1.4 health for every point of power used), on pre-pull plus Glory of Combat (which is always up on at least two of my group members), plus my Focused Benefaction "stun myself" reactive (a whopping 15 triggers at ~300 health each) is more than sufficient to keep any tank healed during the opening "alpha strike" of any challenging encounter or raid.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that's still not enough, add in my ability to fire off another emergency group and solo reactive (another 14 triggers with 0 cast time) and Salvation (you can't die - the moment your health hits 0, you stand right back up with ~500 health), I'd say I'm pretty covered on ways to keep someone standing.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If somehow, all of that is not enough, I can add in my Mark of Kings and Involuntary Healers spells on the main target to give everyone - not just in my group, but EVERYONE that hits that target a chance at healing themselves for a small amount.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If for some reason, at the end of the day, none of that is enough, I can cast an in-combat resurrection that brings the target back with full health and NO resurrection sickness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Oh yeah, we also have direct heals...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:14 PM</span>

[Nanite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <DIV>Oh is that so cow? yes druids can use 1h swords like scimitars does that balance out the vast choice templars have of armor? lol dont make me laugh youre full of it.</DIV> <DIV>we cant use all swords/weapons in game what are you talking about btw yeah those 1 h swords have sweet stats for a priest lol come on man.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>they do when soloing. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Umm how? How is a one handed scimatar better then a two handed legendary staff? Sure I sacrifice the shield, but IMO the extra damage I get with an imbued 2HB legendary weapon more then offsets that. If I take too much damage, I heal myself, no biggie. However, soloing isn't the *ONLY* aspect of this game, and your armor gives you a GREATLY increased chance of survival when things go wahoony shaped in groups, because you can actually take a few hits and not die. Not to mention giving you the ability to take way more damage without having to heal when you do solo. Pointing to the scimitars and going "that's as good as platemail!" Only undermines your other arguements, by making you look kinda petty IMO. I agree that you guys need some form of damage boost, and I think the best way to achieve that is with a large int buff. Either that or make all priest spells (or heck, just templar/inquis spells) do damage based on wis instead of int. If they did that, I think the damage gap would close considerably. I will admit, taking one down arrow mobs is very easy for my fury, multi creature mobs with two/three down arrows are even easier, BUT it probably doesn't take my fury much less time than your templar to take a no arrow, or a one up arrow mob, because our spells have such long recast. Their basically one shot per fight. However, pre DoF, solo, multi creature mobs, and one down arrow mobs are 10x more common than any other solo mobs, which is why furies solo so well.</P> <P> </P> <P>To put it another way, just about every post from templars have been just general complaining that they don't do enough damage, make us do more damage! You need to look at *WHY* your not doing enough damage. The devs looked at furies spells, and looked at yours, and thought they were pretty well balanced. You guys just generally saying that furies do way more damage, even with parses, doesn't cut it when lot's of other people have posted parses showing furies only a bit higher than templars. I think that if you take a templar and a fury with EQUAL int, and have them take on a white no arrow mob, their dps would be close. The fury would do a bit more, but not even 2x I bet. The problem is, you WON'T FIND a templar and fury of equal level with equal int, because furies get TWO int buffs, while as I understand it templars get none? Combine that with plate having almost non existant int buffs, and there's your problem. So instead of say "we're broke! we're broke!" You need to be saying "We're broke because our int is too low, we can't kill anything!"<BR></P>

[Nanite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>A Post Script on the last post.</P> <P>Quetz, I actually like you. Dont take anything I say personal. Some of your Warden and Fury friends on these boards are quite rude and offensive, but I like you. </P> <P>Let you and I agree to disagree, and keep everything civil. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I hope you weren't taking that templars are stupid crack too seriously. I meant it as a joke, not an attack or anything. That is the problem after all, your toons are lacking in the intelligence department. I do agree that you guys need working on, I just feel your going at it bass ackwards. You gotta look at it from the dev's point of view: They see a bunch of people complaining, see that sometimes the numbers support them, sometimes they don't. They also see (on this thread, at least) some templars saying that they are basically OK, and they wonder if these people that are complaining are the vocal minority. If you can give a *REASON* why you aren't doing enough damage after they worked hard to balance your spells, they will probably be a lot more willing to listen. If you keep saying things like platemail is *fluff* their gonna be a lot more likely to just write you off as complainer's that are never gonna be happy (*NOT* saying that's the case here, just saying what I think the devs are gonna think about it).</DIV>

[Isim]

So all the other classes in the game thinks its ok for templars to take 45 to 90 secs to kill a mob, 45 to 60 mins to do the haunted manssion quest (yes I did time it). Glad i retired my lvl 49 templar in favor the rangers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Since the post lu13 avoidance and DPS classeses are the way to go

[Mat]

<P>Join me slamming heroeic groups like they have never been borned before as a Zerker then. I love zerker now after the long 10 levels of boring healing life. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Quijonsith]

<div></div><div></div>I must say that when I saw the post above stating that tempars were stupid I took serious offense.  Even if you meant it as a joke, it most certainly did not come across that way.  Now admittedly I have seen templars with low intellegence (game stat, not reality).  I am not one of them.  I have five pieces of armor and jewelry that I change out for DPS vs. more power (wis) for healing in groups.  I have 278 wis and 120 int in my grouping gear (high wis, more power).  I have 224 wis and 168 int when i change my gear.  That's without my food (nother 8 wis/int for 5 hrs) and translucent elixer of insight (potion for 35 wis/int)  which would give me 201 int and my DPS is still horrid as a 52 Templar.  furies anyalate me in DPS.  Soloing is so frustrating that I don't do it anymore.  I only group with my templar, in which case I have a great deal of fun.  Roll a templar and crank your int and then tell me why our DPS is low.  Until then, learn what you're talking about before you say it and refrain from insulting us and then later saying "i was just joking" Edit: I've grouped with furies and wizards and whatever else can buff int.  I've had my int buffed above 250 easy.  In that group my strongest nuke (my aoe) did 311 damage to each mob.  My single target nukes were still maybe 250.  My highest nuke (other than master smite) was 480 on an undead cause ONE of my nukes does double damage to undead.  Furies are the offensive healers. You should out DPS templars (the defensive healers) but the point is why balance healing and not DPS.  We have a slight edge in defense with our utility spells mostly being healing spells (which i rather enjoy).  The disparity in offense between the classes is much higher than the difference in defense.  I'd also like to note that all my damage spells are adept 1. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Quijonsith on <span class="date_text">11-14-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:07 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Quijonsith on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 AM</span>

[Caethre]

<P>OOC.</P> <DIV>I have watched this thread, without comment, until now, but it is time for me as the OP to update it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the other normal-player Templars who have been messaging me in game and out, don't despair totally yet. SoE do have a history of listening to their players .. eventually! Despite a feeling that we are being ignored at the moment, all these whining posts from a very small number of non-Templars, complaining about us daring to ask for balance when we are feeling we are headed down a dead-end, don't matter, their motives can be seen in an instant for what they are. Neither do a few hardcore raidguild and protected fixed-group players saying 'we are fine' change anything about the reality for the rest of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars still cannot justify their place in an average group, especially in a small group like a duo or trio. We do not bring as much to the table as other priest classes, now that their healing power is pretty much the same as our own, and whilst our so-called "healing utility" is simply of no value when any other priest has enough healing for such groups without it, yet they can bring some real VALUED utility as well as greater DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I posted this elsewhere, but in the end, it is one way or the other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EITHER</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Templars get to be BEST (unequalled, unrivalled, whatever word you like) healers, head shoulders and torso above all other priests AND then have to accept lower soloing/DPS/utility and comments like "templars were never meant to solo" and other such remarks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OR</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Templars have to accept being equal healers to other priests .. and we get some MEANINGFUL AND VALUED utility (not pointless proc heals and silly short term mezzes you are welcome to those - how about Root, Group-Encounter Pacify and more) to give us balance with other priests there, and EQUAL DPS CAPABILITY to other priests.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other priest classes should not have it both ways. Carry on with the "We Demand Equal Healing to Templars" AND "We Demand Better DPS/Utility than Templars", and we will keep seeing you as campaigning for your own god-class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Meanwhile, many Templars remain shelved, and with good reason. In the last six days, I've put five more levels on Annaelisa my Fury, and it won't be too much longer at this rate before she can replace Felishanna in any of her groups AND bring a lot more to those groups as well, just by not being a Templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And there is still no SoE response of any kind on any thread on any forum to our concerns. Can we please get some form of acknowledgement, somewhere of Templar issues? Please?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [38 Fury]<BR></DIV>

[Twizzel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>You are right Quetz in one regard, there is no point, because you will not admit that there are 2 huge disparities that need to be addressed. A. your Group Specialty heal (Regen) is up to 4 times more effective thatn anybody elses other than Wardens. B There is an extremely large soloing disparity even within the healer ranks.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Templars can throw more healing at a main tank within a five second period of time than any other priest.  I understand that under the right circumstances, Druid regenerations can spread out throughout a group to heal more damage overall.  However, my group reactive (9 triggers), plus my solo reactive  (5 triggers) plus reverence (tank heals him or herself for 1.4 health for every point of power used), on pre-pull plus Glory of Combat (which is always up on at least two of my group members), plus my Focused Benefaction "stun myself" reactive (a whopping 15 triggers at ~300 health each) is more than sufficient to keep any tank healed during the opening "alpha strike" of any challenging encounter or raid.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that's still not enough, add in my ability to fire off another emergency group and solo reactive (another 14 triggers with 0 cast time) and Salvation (you can't die - the moment your health hits 0, you stand right back up with ~500 health), I'd say I'm pretty covered on ways to keep someone standing.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If somehow, all of that is not enough, I can add in my Mark of Kings and Involuntary Healers spells on the main target to give everyone - not just in my group, but EVERYONE that hits that target a chance at healing themselves for a small amount.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If for some reason, at the end of the day, none of that is enough, I can cast an in-combat resurrection that brings the target back with full health and NO resurrection sickness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Oh yeah, we also have direct heals...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:14 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I won't disagree, as I am not as high level as you, however IF SoE had stated in the original EQ2 documentation that Templars would eventually only been good in *epic* or *raid* situations, I would never have rolled one.</P> <P>As for the int/wis post a few up, in theory that sounds nice, but Templars would still take 60-90 seconds to solo a blue or even con mob.</P> <P>Finally, guess it's time to change my sig since I rolled a scout on LDL server at 5pm Thursday(only character there, so no twinking) and have made it to lvl 19 as of 7pm Sunday.  As this appears to be a much more useful class for BOTH soloing and small grouping, looks like I'll be a Swashbuckler from here on out...</P>

[Legionus1]

<DIV>well one thing I have to say is that the healing should be equal in all healing classes because its not that makes anyone a wrong or right healer. The healing system is seperated amongst the three types of classes for healing equally;</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Druids they heal in tick while, focus mostly on agi and power based buff,  they are strongest in utillites, they have best DPs out of healers and they can only where light armor <leather>, they can fight with scimitars/some-swords and blunt weapons. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shamens have the abbility to ward and slightly heal using pets and there one to two heals they may get on one line, they have limited utililites, there buffs focus more on str, sta and Health, they can wear anything equal or below Meduim Armor, there Dps is seperated in Ticks and Debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clerics have the abbility to heal using hit procs and inverse hit procs as well as high direct heals in combat, they have no to little utility, there buffs focus more on defense and mitigration as well as Wisdom, they can wear plated armor which makes them the best defensive healers in game, there DPS is mostly divine meduim striked dps, there strong on undead and debuffs and they also have strongest revives in game. Clerics are well adept to fight with blunt weapons and can debuff a mob incredibly to make a slow yet victorious win.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guys I wrote this for you can see that saying He has high DPS and we don't is not going to save anything ofcourse a Fury is going to nuke better then you guys and even though you guys heal differently he can die in two hits and you can't. Now to say that Priest should not all heal for the same amount in the end is basically crying that you guys should be main healer and that others should be Sub-healers...Now does that not sound selfish, you guys have the easiest style of healing aready and by far are the best "Main-healers" on raids along side inquistors. Now take into consideration Caethre ((I know your great and all and read alot of your post)) That other classes like druids and shamens do not heal DIRECTLY as much as you do so why you heal for 500 points there healing for 300 25 25 25 25 25 25 25 25.... or warding 300 and healing for 200 so by far you can see that your system is much easier and acurate to save someones life. Utillites like SOW and invs are something that will take the traditional aspect of game if you guys do have it and it also effects the whole game system if it does happen. You guys are the only class that can completely remove revival sickness above level 50 and also you can heal most of there health in one hit. Now after that you may complain about your lack of role in small groups because your lack of versitility on DPS and healing. ((IF you have a problem with a finding a role in a small group or soloing is stange while small groups  highly depend on "fast XP" which requires DPS you offer "Safe xp" which requires buffs and massive healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Legionus1]

<P>Even though im purely agianst giving us Root, I do think Caethre that your pacify suggestion is quite interesting...to make other mobs in game not being able to hit or attack hostily for sometime....Also I one played a game where the Cleric/templar had a sancturary spell that made other aggro mobs not hate them for a limited of time.</P>

[Mat]

<P>/clap</P> <P>Very well written Legionus149! If you want more DPS and utility than current merits of templars, try playing other healer sub class. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nanite77 wrote:<div>The problem with you templar's is that your just too stupid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Seriously, I'm a fury, I solo a lot, and I've willingly taken a hit in my ability to heal *to be able to solo well*. How? simple, my int is way higher then my wis. My int it 244, my wis is 178. Lower then most healers, I know, but I do insane damage. While most templars I see have like 50 int. There's the problem folks. </div><hr></blockquote>Seriously, your wis does not affect on the amount of health your spells heal. Lack of 100 wis means about 450 less power and it only matters in oop situations. And my lvl 55 templar has ran oop in group situation once after LU13. So your lack of wis does not affect your healing capability even in extreme situations.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <div>Templars can throw more healing at a main tank within a five second period of time than any other priest.  </div> <hr></blockquote>This is true. But only if you have reactives up to begin with. Otherwise templar is the worst class to bring mt's health back up after the damage is done.</span><div></div>

[Quijonsith]

That's not entirely true.  We have the largest direct heals in the game.  I have no prob healing for right at 1000 in one shot at lvl 52 templar. <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Quijonsith wrote:That's not entirely true.  We have the largest direct heals in the game.  I have no prob healing for right at 1000 in one shot at lvl 52 templar. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Largest yes, but also with longest recast. We cast one, others cast 2.</span><div></div>

[Quijonsith]

if we have to worry about recasting then we should be using reactives.  And we have two direct heals plus a long cast group so I have no issues with healing.  It's all about your style of healing.  Each is situational and has their pros and cons. <div></div>

[Quijonsith]

note that this is all in refernece to "worse at bringing mt's health back up".  I'd agree with you more in reference to the rest of the group, but not the mt.  he's gonna get hit (cept monks not quite so much) <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Quijonsith wrote:if we have to worry about recasting then we should be using reactives.  And we have two direct heals plus a long cast group so I have no issues with healing.  It's all about your style of healing.  Each is situational and has their pros and cons. <hr></blockquote>Reactives wont heal unless you get hit. Ok, maybe we are not the worst, defilers and mystics are bropably worse, but furies and wardens win us by a huge margin. </span><span>HoT's heal even if mt is not hit and there are also single target heals which will aid them. And it was about spike damage. I do think that means mt gets a bad set of rolls for avoiding and things get back to normal after the spike. In these cases HoT's are really the best ones. If target is hit constantly, then it is not spike damage and even templars cannot make it as sole healers in those cases. </span><div></div>

[Mat]

Do you mean that you want the dev to make a templar able to Heal 2K HP very quickly, able to SoW and Grp Invis and Evac, able to RH and do HoT at the same time, receive less damage than other class due to H.Armor and does great DD while soloing? I would quit the game if this ever happen. Just my 2 cents.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Matek wrote:<div></div>Do you mean that you want the dev to make a templar able to Heal 2K HP very quickly, able to SoW and Grp Invis and Evac, able to RH and do HoT at the same time, receive less damage than other class due to H.Armor and does great DD while soloing? I would quit the game if this ever happen. Just my 2 cents.<hr></blockquote>No. just my 2 cents.</span><div></div>

[Opalmoon]

<P>I read some of this thread so not sure if this has been mentioned before, I am a lvl 56 templar on permafrost,  I also played a cleric to 65 in eq1 in a raiding guild .. So i think i know the class well,</P> <P>anyway at lvl 40 you dont have the healing available to Templars at higher lvls at 56 I have</P> <P>1. a short burst heal good for healing casters getting hit</P> <P>2. a big burst heal good for extra healing that tank when the reactive isnt working</P> <P>3. reverence which takes tanks mana and turns it into health</P> <P>4. mark line which when casts heals the tank as it hits the mob</P> <P>5. Involuntary curate line which also when cast on mob heals whoever hits it</P> <P>6. a reactive single person heal</P> <P>7. a reactive group heal</P> <P>8. a burst group heal</P> <P>9. a heal when put on tank does a reactive for a specified time but locks you in place and cant cast etc while it runs also has a high recast time but only use this when duoing or there is another healer in group.</P> <P>10. another heal when fighting groups once the target dies heals the whole group</P> <P>11. a heal for group that uses no mana  long recast but great in a rough situation</P> <P>lol and thats just our heals that does not count the 3 or 4 buffs and debuffs we get ...</P> <P>Now thats alot of healing ! also when we get heal aggro we can stand up to the mobs alot better then the squishy healers ..Because we can wear plate armor ....that is a big plus in my book.</P> <P>I just dont see why all temps are upset about the healing situation I do great in groups and really have no problem getting groups anytime.  I made a templar to be a group healer not to solo and imho I do my job just fine with the way things are.</P>

[Meribor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Opalmoon35 wrote: I just dont see why all temps are upset about the healing situation I do great in groups and really have no problem getting groups anytime.  I made a templar to be a group healer not to solo and imho I do my job just fine with the way things are.<hr></blockquote>Personally, I'm not upset about my GROUP healing ability ... I'm upset that I don't enjoy going SOLO when I need to with all the interrupts, fizzles, and resists on top of my already low dps.  </span><span>Since I have no regular group to rely on, </span><span>it became so unfun to play my templar at level 31 that I've switched to playing a necromancer and have no plans to go back to my templar at this point.  It's a game and I play to have fun.  Being a templar is no longer fun for me.</span><div></div>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twizzel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>You are right Quetz in one regard, there is no point, because you will not admit that there are 2 huge disparities that need to be addressed. A. your Group Specialty heal (Regen) is up to 4 times more effective thatn anybody elses other than Wardens. B There is an extremely large soloing disparity even within the healer ranks.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Templars can throw more healing at a main tank within a five second period of time than any other priest.  I understand that under the right circumstances, Druid regenerations can spread out throughout a group to heal more damage overall.  However, my group reactive (9 triggers), plus my solo reactive  (5 triggers) plus reverence (tank heals him or herself for 1.4 health for every point of power used), on pre-pull plus Glory of Combat (which is always up on at least two of my group members), plus my Focused Benefaction "stun myself" reactive (a whopping 15 triggers at ~300 health each) is more than sufficient to keep any tank healed during the opening "alpha strike" of any challenging encounter or raid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that's still not enough, add in my ability to fire off another emergency group and solo reactive (another 14 triggers with 0 cast time) and Salvation (you can't die - the moment your health hits 0, you stand right back up with ~500 health), I'd say I'm pretty covered on ways to keep someone standing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If somehow, all of that is not enough, I can add in my Mark of Kings and Involuntary Healers spells on the main target to give everyone - not just in my group, but EVERYONE that hits that target a chance at healing themselves for a small amount. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If for some reason, at the end of the day, none of that is enough, I can cast an in-combat resurrection that brings the target back with full health and NO resurrection sickness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Oh yeah, we also have direct heals...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>11-13-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:14 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I won't disagree, as I am not as high level as you, however IF SoE had stated in the original EQ2 documentation that Templars would eventually only been good in *epic* or *raid* situations, I would never have rolled one.</P> <P>As for the int/wis post a few up, in theory that sounds nice, but Templars would still take 60-90 seconds to solo a blue or even con mob.</P> <P>Finally, guess it's time to change my sig since I rolled a scout on LDL server at 5pm Thursday(only character there, so no twinking) and have made it to lvl 19 as of 7pm Sunday.  As this appears to be a much more useful class for BOTH soloing and small grouping, looks like I'll be a Swashbuckler from here on out...</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Go Swashies!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><Sorry just had to throw that in.></DIV>

[Quijonsith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Timaarit wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Quijonsith wrote:if we have to worry about recasting then we should be using reactives.  And we have two direct heals plus a long cast group so I have no issues with healing.  It's all about your style of healing.  Each is situational and has their pros and cons. <hr></blockquote>Reactives wont heal unless you get hit. Ok, maybe we are not the worst, defilers and mystics are bropably worse, but furies and wardens win us by a huge margin. </span><span>HoT's heal even if mt is not hit and there are also single target heals which will aid them. And it was about spike damage. I do think that means mt gets a bad set of rolls for avoiding and things get back to normal after the spike. In these cases HoT's are really the best ones. If target is hit constantly, then it is not spike damage and even templars cannot make it as sole healers in those cases. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>What I meant was that if I am pressed to worry about my recast time, then the MT must be getting hit.  In which case..reactive heal.  I tend to use my 3 sec cast larger heal first and then my 2 sec cast slightly smaller heal for those healings.  I've pulled some miracles outta my [Removed for Content] in my time as a Templar and I in no way feel threatened by other classes in my abilities.  To me, we have a slight advantage in healing and things are where they should be.  It's all about the player's ability to use the tools he or she has at their disposal.  It's all down to player skill.</span><div></div>

[Launceal]

<blockquote><span></span>>  There are three elements to the equation: healing, DPS, utility. </blockquote> A fourth element to the equation for me is how fragile you are.  Clerics can wear plate armor (and anything less), so they can have much better mitigation, along with much more flexibility in mixing/matching gear choices.  There should be a trade-off to this.  Druids have utility and dps options that clerics lack, but are themselves more fragile.  <blockquote> </blockquote>

[Quijonsith]

<div></div>I don't know about all the priest classes, but i know that wardens can root a mob almost indefinetly while templars certainly cannot.  I duo with a warden friend of mine at times and i've seen it. That's the same way my wizard solos, so there's the answer to the armor issue.  Edit, typo <div></div><p>Message Edited by Quijonsith on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:09 PM</span>

[ZalraxEQ2]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:[...] <div>If somehow, all of that is not enough, I can add in my Mark of Kings and Involuntary Healers spells on the main target to give everyone - not just in my group, but EVERYONE that hits that target a chance at healing themselves for a small amount.  </div> <div>[...]<span class="time_text"></span> </div><hr></blockquote>Actually, that's not quite true. The Mark of Xxx line does indeed function as you describe. The Involuntary Xxx line, however, only procs heals on a player being hit by a NPC under the effects of this spell (e.g. the tank or person highest on the hate list). I have yet to see the Involuntary line proc on area effect spells/combat arts, or on more than one person in a typical (read: controlled) fight. While it might happen, it's rare. In an ordinary group setting, this spell effectively functions as an additional, rather unreliable, heal for the main tank. Come to think of it, I only recall seeing this line cure a trauma impairment once during several months of 'religious' use (pardon the lame pun). To quote the in-game description: "I</span>nvoluntary Healer  -  An impairment that causes the enemy to sometimes replenish the health and cure trauma impairments of the target they are attacking." I wanted to bring this correction to light, seeing how a templar's spell lines are being used throughout this thread as evidence to both disregard and justify the desire for an increase in templar DPS. If we're going to take the time to dissect the class in order to make an argument, we might as well do it correctly. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (edit: corrected format) <div></div><p>Message Edited by ZalraxEQ2 on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 PM</span>

[El Conquistador]

<P>I'm seeing IC (Involuntary Curate) proc quite often now; it helps that they've fixed the indicator to show when you are under trauma, poison, etc.  IC procs 3 or 4 times a fight (long fights of course, hah) removing such trauma as mangle, eye gouge, cheap shot IIRC.   The only trauma it doesn't seem to remove is a fairly long stun, which just has to wear off on its own.  So, I always use it soloing and see quite a bit of benefit from it. </P> <P>I see now that you were referring to Involuntary Healer, so there may still be a problem with that I'm not aware of.</P> <P> </P> <P>Edited to note difference between IH and IC.</P> <p>Message Edited by El Conquistador on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:14 PM</span>

[Helmarf]

I remember i read something in LU 13 "templars now gonna do more damage". Well how and when? And all those ancient teaching 53 55 58 spells xcept the Sanctuary is a joke.

[MabortKilmodar]

<DIV> <P>I really don't like posting in threads like this.  However, I just can't stop myself from trying to clarify the situation.</P> <P>It really is difficult to nail down what the problem is.  I see it completely differently than most people.  Then again, I've been in game design for the better part of a decade now, but that isn't the point.  Why do people keep complaining about this specifically?  Well I'm sure there are many reasons, but I think this is a major one:</P> <P>No one is denying the fact that Templars are hands down the best healers in the game.  I play a Templar, and in raid situations, larger quest groups, or just bad situations in normal xp groups w/o a mezer, then you want a Templar.  They keep people alive the best.  That is not what is being argued though.  What is being argued is that with the update to the other healing classes getting the ability to efficiently heal a normal xp group as well as do whatever it is they were doing before (good change too), any extra healing a Templar can do is superfluous for normal xp groups.  I know this as a hard fact.  As a Templar I can heal a normal xp group with my eyes closed, and the only times it is ever challenging is when we pick up multiple heroic adds.  Is this a problem?  No.  Then where is the problem?  That comes in from the other classes.  They're job before was not being the main healer, so they had extra things to add to the group because of their lack of healing.  The change was made because their utility and dps did not make up for the lack of dps.  So, they were given the ability to heal a normal xp group as well as continue doing their normal thing in a group.</P> <P>So, what is the problem?  I hope that is apparent by now, but if it is not, this is about as lucid as it will get:  Templars are not as efficient as other priest in normal xp groups or solo'ing, because their extra healing abilities are not useful in this situation, and healing is not the only thing a group like that needs.  Every class has their major thing they bring to a group, fighters - aggro control w/ some dps, scouts - high dps w/ some utility, mages - either high dps or high utility w/ some of the other, and priests - healing w/ utility.  The thing about a Templar is, as far as normal xp groups go, you can remove all of their utility and damage spells and you wouldn't really affect their group efficiency.</P> <P>Now, this begs the question, what do you do about it?  Is there any reason to do anything about it?  I mean it is just a game, and screaming about injustices in a game seems a bit obsessive and/or silly.  But is it really?  I mean people pay real money to play this game, and they build online communities in which they form unique and very real identities.  So is it a problem that these people feel affected by these changes?  I'm not sure, but I feel that there is some merit to their complaints.</P> <P>I think the bigger issue here, in my opinion, is what to do about it.  There obviously is some problem.  That is not to say that Templars will not get into groups, but systemically, they should be overlooked in favor of other priests time and time again in normal xp groups.  What can you really do though?  Nerf the other priests?  Upgrade the Templars?  I'm not entirely sure that either of those are legitimate options.  I'm going to be blatantly honest and say chalk it up to a bad bit of game design.  Honestly people, who the hell comes up with a multimillion dollar PROFIT a year game, and does nothing but make cookie cutter classes, changing a few things here and there.  I really see no reason for all the priest classes to be as similar as they currently are.  I think it is just a lack of imagination and creativity.  Put some god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] flavor in these classes.  Come up with some original ideas.  Make there be a real difference for playing a Templar vs a Fury vs a Defiler vs a Warden.  There was a better clarification of class roles in EQ1, so where did the designers go wrong?  I am going to say that I understand that this is not an easy job.  You can't please everyone, but when a player comes to you with systemic evidence of large margin of disparity, then you are obligated to pay attention.  Unless of course this is just a pay check to you.  If that is the case, then I suggest you get into office applications, its a much more suited for disaffected programmers and designers.</P> <P>So I don't know what to say.  All I know is that there is more going on here than just a whine fest over dps and utility of a couple of classes.  The priest subclasses really need to be reworked on a fundamental level.  You need to figure out what the motivations of these dogmatic sects of Norrathian society are.  How those affect the development of abilities and skills.  While you are dealing with just systemical information, it needs to be informed by indepth game design like story, ect.  There is too little of a difference between the priests.  I mean, when I'm playing my Templar, I don't feel like a follower of any diety, I'm just a healer.</P> <P>Think, then do.  That's all I got.</P></DIV>

[zorbdan]

Does it make any sense that the priest classes with the least avoidance gets a long timer heal and the classes with the highest avoidance gets the short timer heals ?

[Quijonsith]

I think the real problem is fundamental.  There are too many subclasses for the same perpose.  The archtype system was a good idea, but I think they should have gone with 2 classes and 4 total subclasses for each archtype.  Then the appearance of diversity would have been much better maintained.  But it's a little late to fix that now. <div></div>

[Kilaelya]

<P>I always thought some sort of single/self target melee proc would be awesome, we *are* battle priests, afterall. And there would be the solution to our dps/solo problem.</P> <P>But, alas, with SOE I know it can't be that easy.</P> <P> </P>

[Espyderman]

<P>Templars in my experience can heal only, soloing is boring and slow. So grouping is almost required for any fun factor. Secondly, even though we do heal for the most per heal we cant direct heal as much as we used to be able to. Its like a trade off, big heal long recast. However the problem is the big heals take tons of our mana. So if you use it lets say 3 times straight to get a tank up thats detrimental to the group if your the lone healer as you may run out of mana when an ad hits you.<BR><BR>Nuking in a solo situation while healing hurts mana even worse. As other classes, such as mage and fighter ive experienced them to have more casts on all their spells for a lower power cost then a templar would have in a solo situation.</P> <P>Although templars do well either in group or soloing its slow and monotonous. As a mage i can do many different things, as a fighter i can mash the buttons till its dead and stun and stuff, but as a templar its either nuke or heal and both are power suckers.</P> <P>I think for Templars to be fun SOE needs to give templars a small power boost or a bigger nuking capability against any mobs. As it is its too [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] slow and my 50 templar has been 50 since the big CU.</P>

[Espyderman]

One other thing, the spell lines keep going back and forth between not having some on the same recast then it went back to them all having same recast times. Ultimately this did a 180 on the templar class, before we had choices now its heal heal nuke debuff.

[BC84]

OH NO! Other healers can actually heal as good as you now! What is this? Who ever said, "all men are created equal?" Bah! Not in EQ. Other healers should suck and templars should be the best of course. Sense my sarcasm? <div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>BC8488 wrote:OH NO! Other healers can actually heal as good as you now! What is this? Who ever said, "all men are created equal?" Bah! Not in EQ. Other healers should suck and templars should be the best of course. Sense my sarcasm? <div></div><hr></blockquote>No, I sense your malicious pleasure over what was done to templars.</span><div></div>

[Quijonsith]

I have no problem with other healers being able to heal as well as templars (which is situational).  As a matter of fact, I'm exstatic.  All healers should be able to keep a regular group alive.  Before recent changes (most esp before the CU) furies absolutely struggled at healing.  I've only seen a very minor few templars state that we belong on top.  The complaints are over the lack of DPS and the slow monotony of soloing. <div></div>

[thark]

<DIV>Well, I play a templar aswell..many aspects of templars has been discussed, but what about the fact that templars get the opertunity to wear full plate ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the soothe line is, atleast according to me a very good and useful "utility" when getting past crowded areas with many heroics, a group version of the same spell would be something thou..Im 46 don't know if we eventually get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as far as dps, well its weak..but when im fighting undead i have as far as templars go still rather good DPS, and there is alot of undead in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And aswell at my level, I think we have some awesome buffs, both group and singletarget one's..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But again, many tend to forget the fact that Templars can run around in a FULL PLATE, the same armour as your tank..Why is this ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SnowKnight]

Agree with the OP. Templar now retired in favour of a conjuror.

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>thark wrote:<div>Well, I play a templar aswell..many aspects of templars has been discussed, but what about the fact that templars get the opertunity to wear full plate ?</div> <div> </div> <div>And the soothe line is, atleast according to me a very good and useful "utility" when getting past crowded areas with many heroics, a group version of the same spell would be something thou..Im 46 don't know if we eventually get it.</div> <div> </div> <div>And as far as dps, well its weak..but when im fighting undead i have as far as templars go still rather good DPS, and there is alot of undead in the game.</div> <div> </div> <div>And aswell at my level, I think we have some awesome buffs, both group and singletarget one's..</div> <div> </div> <div>But again, many tend to forget the fact that Templars can run around in a FULL PLATE, the same armour as your tank..Why is this ?</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Of-course the theory behind Templar's in plate is it's one of the benefits of the class, a part of our 'utility' to be able to take a beating and keep on ticking.  Unfortunately, the game is not playing that way for Templars at the moment.  The reason?  We take a beating and we die because we can't cast -- even greys keep us from casting -- interrupt, interrupt, interrupt, .... We can give up a chunk of what 'utility' we have and put on avoidance gear.  But that's just wrong. </span><div></div>

[steelblueangel]

<DIV>Yes, Templars and Inquisitors do wear plate mail. But armor alone will not prevent death or provide rewarding or fun game play. If platemail prevented death then tanks would not need a healer class during combat because they too wear plate mail. Wearing plate mail does not make getting around things easier it just allows one to be able to with stand 2 more hits before death occurs lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I rarley play my inquisitor that is a lev 52 except to forage or help out guildies because she is not longer a fun toon to play. Her level allows me to forage for my other toons trade skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally would trade in my plate mail for more dps especially since soe removed the parry in lu13 from the inquisitors and templars. Plate mail without parry is useless anyway andI would trade in the plate mail for less interruptions, stuns, and fizzles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wearing plate mail only prolongs the agony of impending death for the inquisitor and the templar because their low damage out put does not allow them to properly defend themselves. The interruptions, stuns, and fizzles give the npcs the greatest advantage over the inquisitor and templar class. Fizzles cost mana with each one and many of our heal spells cost too much mana. The stuns and interruptions cause us to run in battle more often than not because we cant cast a heal on ourselves soloing and during group we feel helpless watching our tanks get killed before we can cast a heal etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If plate mail is the issue preventing the Inquisitor and the Templar classes from getting more dps, then remove the plate mail and balance out the healer classes. As it is now all of the healing classes heal the same with very little difference. The only difference is dps and plate mail. I would trade in the plate mail for dps in a second.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are too many healing classes in the game and after lu13 it became a obvious problem when trying to balance out the classes. No one has to be nerfed to balance out a any class. If one the devs feel one class is lacking they could add to that class without taking from another one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have several new toons that I rolled so I dont want to see anything taken away from any other classes. I want to play and enjoy the game and I dont enjoy my Inquisitor so I play another toon. Nerfing never balances out the classes it just handicaps the game and reduces the fun for everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll continue to play eq2 until another game I enjoy comes out then I will move on to explore other worlds. Until then have fun everyone thats what it is all about and I'll see you in the game : )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Teil]

<DIV>Well im currently a lvl 45 Templar and used to be a 65 cleric in EQ1.   I wouldnt trade my healing ability that I have since Templars are very good at keeping groups alive.  What does concern me is the lack of utility. I would love to have some of the things we had in EQ1 back for EQ2 like the ability to root mobs or even the 10 sec invulnerablity they had so when we do pull agro can pop that.  Soloing for a Templar is almost pointless since our DPS is so bad.  I'll hunt for a group any day rather than solo.  You know your DPS is bad when you can't take on a ^ ^ ^ that is over 10 levels below you. But really im not worried about soloing since thats not what templars are about in my opinion. We are made for groups and keeping others alive. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Teilan on <span class=date_text>11-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 PM</span>

[MisguidedAngel]

<P>I see this a lot, too. On raids I've been on, the "main tank" group ALWAYS opts to go with a Mystic or Fury as the primary healers because of the equal healing AND their buffs. These healing classes are combination classes -- they aren't the "pure healer" that Inquisitors and Templars were supposed to be.</P> <P>So what's the deal? I decide to be a "pure healer" and skip on the DPS and ability to solo decently just to these secondary-types be given our role + the extra benefits on a silver platter? </P>

[Cowdenic]

<P>well i was in a raid with a 58 fury last night. I can attest now that I cannot keep up with the healing that they can do. Even with 3 people having GoC on it was not even close. Hibernation, all i can say is wow. 200 something power for 7k healing. group regen compared well with my group reactive (not). Yeah I had a bigger direct heal wow pretty comparative when you factor in that the fury did about 70 k more healing than i did over the fight. But healing is equal now (not).</P> <P>So lower healing, worse Dps, lower soloability, worse buffs. WOW. All these healers were equal. </P> <P>P.S. my spells were actually of a better grade (adept 3 to Master 1) on average.</P>

[Besual]

<div></div>I checked my handbook again but I can't find a statment saying templar / inq are the BEST healers or are pure healers (I mean "more pure" then a druid or a shaman). Yes, clerics were the best / pure healers in EQ1. But this game isn't EQ1. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Besual on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Besual wrote:I checked my handbook again but I can't find a statment saying templar / inq are the BEST healers or are pure healers (I mean "more pure" then a druid or a shaman). Yes, clerics where the best / pure healers in EQ1. But this game isn't EQ1. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Where does it say that templar should be the worst healer and dps?</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Besual wrote:<BR>I checked my handbook again but I can't find a statment saying templar / inq are the BEST healers or are pure healers (I mean "more pure" then a druid or a shaman). Yes, clerics where the best / pure healers in EQ1. But this game isn't EQ1. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Where does it say that templar should be the worst healer and dps?<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So now you're claiming we're the worst healers?</P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 AM</span>

[Kendricke]

<P>Ok, so what was the point of the statement in the first place?  That because it doesn't say we're the worst healer, we must be?  That because it doesn't say we're the worst healer we can't be?</P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>Ok, so what was the point of the statement in the first place?  That because it doesn't say we're the worst healer, we must be?  That because it doesn't say we're the worst healer we can't be?</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>Once you figure out the point of any of your posts, you will see my point.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN>Once you figure out the point of any of your posts, you will see my point.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm asking a legitimate request for clarification on what you meant in your post.  You've told me that my first guess was wrong.  I asked directly then for a better explanation and now you're ... what are you doing here?  What is this?  It's certainly not an answer.  </P> <P>(By the way, I'm curious how my being in Beta or on Test is a detriment in a thread on the "In Testing Feedback" forum)</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:29 AM</span>

[Twizzel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN>Once you figure out the point of any of your posts, you will see my point.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm asking a legitimate request for clarification on what you meant in your post.  You've told me that my first guess was wrong.  I asked directly then for a better explanation and now you're ... what are you doing here?  What is this?  It's certainly not an answer.  </P> <P>(By the way, I'm curious how my being in Beta or on Test is a detriment in a thread on the "In Testing Feedback" forum)</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by Kendricke on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:29 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not sure about the detriment to this thread, but the point shouldn't be that hard for you to get...someone alleges they refer to the manual and states the manual says nothing about the Templar being the best healer.  This person responds in kind (not how I would of done it, but certainly the type of answer the person deserved).  If a Fury is healing 7k for 200 power, something is seriously wrong.  And it should be a given that since a Templar gives up utility, there should be compensation in the form of "best" heals since they (Templars) bring NOTHING to a group BUT healing--not even decent buffs, which should also be a given, given the "devotional" aspect of a Templar/Inquisitor.  But hey, why inject roleplay into an RPG.</P> <P>BTW, I used to think your posts were somewhat constructive Kindricke...these last few kind of surprised me! </P>

[kaldainbloodstorm]

<P>Hiya all,</P> <P>I agree with some of whats been said.  But I have play a templar in both eq (yes i know its not eq2) and eq2 now and I do wish there was a little bit of seperation in the healing department between class.  As far as the dps goes since the changes I fined myself going after more undead then before with the damg increase to the strike spell.  I have also choose to make my strike spell be my master 2 selection to give me more dps.  I mow through undead at this time with little to know worries including upto a 52 3 uparrow heroic at lvl 54.  In eq1 templars sucked also for dps unless it was undead the same holds true now.  Also Druid and Shamen class have alway had dps advantage in eq1 and continues in eq2.  I dont believe that anyone in SOE likes templars or atleast does not know what playing a templar is really about.  Once again I'm ok with having undead dps but I really wish we could atleast stack or have another line of reactive heals to help groups out with epics and other names hitting for thousands of hps right away we should be able to combat that better then what we do now.</P> <P>This is only my opinion</P> <P>Kaldain 54 Templar (Faydark Server)</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twizzel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> If a Fury is healing 7k for 200 power, something is seriously wrong.  </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd agree with that statement.  IF a Fury is healing 1 target for 7,000 health for 200 power, that's quite the surprise to me.  If a Fury can do this with just one spell, that's absolutely astounding.  </P> <P>However, the spell being discussed here is Hibernation.  A level 58 Fury spell, Hibernation performs a 1118-1367 point heal for 223 power (at Adept III).  It has a 10 second delay built in after a 1 second casting time.  That means you cast it...and 10 seconds later the target is hit for 1118-1367 health, instead of having the health regenerate throughout the 10 seconds.  Now, it is AE...but per target, it's only hitting for up to 1367 per target.  It's nice to say you're healing for 7000 total, but it's not the case on a target by target basis, it would seem.  That extra 1367x5 means nothing to the main tank - it's also a great way to get the Fury noticed - and quickly.  It also takes some timing to work correctly (10 seconds is a LONG time during a challenging fight - the type of fight that this sort of spell would see the most use during).</P> <P>The level 58 Templar spell is Divine Arbitration, which though nice, certainly has some quirks to it that need addressing.  It's a great concept, but so far the theory seems to be slightly better than the practice (especially if compared to the classic Divine Arbitration of old).  I have faith that some minor tweaks are all that's needed to bring this spell to the fore as a "can't do without" spell, such as changing to a  percentage based distribution, lowering the penalty (at least when upgrading) and shorting the recast timer.  Even as is it's a great way to drop yet another emergency heal to save a main tank (even if it is at the expense of other members of the group).<BR><BR>On a related note, at level 56, both priests get their (currently) highest standard direct group heal, which is Word of Atonement for Templars and Cry of the Untamed for Furies.  The Templar version costs much more - 335 power compared to 231 for Furie's version.  The Templar version takes twice as long to cast as the Furie's 1.5 second cast.  However, the Templar version heals each member of the group for 847-1036 while the Fury version heals each group member for only 588-718.  These are all the Adept III versions of numbers.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:49 PM</span>

[bigmak20]

All things considered it sure seems to add up to a Fury being the best healer by a significant margin 58+.  They just have more healing capabilities.  Large short cast direct heals, Large group heals, all on seperate timers and short recasts (10-12 sec recast vs Templar's 15 minute recast). Templar's Divine Arbitration ... ouch.  Had the Adept 3 made -- kind of have to since it's our only immediate tank saver heal.  But [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] does it hurt.  Six group members -- tank is the only one red.  Drop Divine Arbitration Adept 3 and BAM the tank has about half health and everyone else in the group is at about 3/5 ths unless there's a lower level team member and they end up at the low end of yellow.  That's a VERY EXPENSIVE heal.  The return is way too low and the cast timer is way too long but it's our only save heal.  Furies is 1.5 sec cast, 11.5 sec recast, doesn't penalize every member of the group, and can be followed up by a potential 7000 pt group heal 10 secs later (and that does get to yeild max return in many encounters).  They can then follow that up by a big single target heal 1.5 secs after that goes off whereas the Templar is SOL until 15 MINUTES go by.

[Timaarit]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE COMMENTS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 AM</span>

[Quijonsith]

<span>Timaarit and Kendricke, please take it to PM's.  The number of people posting in and reading this thread are doing so for a discussion about Templars, not to read petty spats that don't need to be had in public dereailing the thread As far as  who is the best healer, it has been said many times.  Healing ability is totally situational.  When it comes to the really hard hiting raid mobs, yes Furies and Wardens have us at a disadvantage (and why exactly is it just the Fury healing being claimed to be on top?).  There are also raids made up of lots of smaller mobs hitting for less but VERY rapidly.  That my friends is where Templar healing reigns supreme.  That and handling the rapid healing requirements of multiple adds unexpectidly. </span><div></div>

[Quijonsith]

<span><blockquote><hr>bigmak2010 wrote:All things considered it sure seems to add up to a Fury being the best healer by a significant margin 58+.  They just have more healing capabilities.  Large short cast direct heals, Large group heals, all on seperate timers and short recasts (10-12 sec recast vs Templar's 15 minute recast). Templar's Divine Arbitration ... ouch.  Had the Adept 3 made -- kind of have to since it's our only immediate tank saver heal.  But [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] does it hurt.  Six group members -- tank is the only one red.  Drop Divine Arbitration Adept 3 and BAM the tank has about half health and everyone else in the group is at about 3/5 ths unless there's a lower level team member and they end up at the low end of yellow.  That's a VERY EXPENSIVE heal.  The return is way too low and the cast timer is way too long but it's our only save heal.  Furies is 1.5 sec cast, 11.5 sec recast, doesn't penalize every member of the group, and can be followed up by a potential 7000 pt group heal 10 secs later (and that does get to yeild max return in many encounters).  They can then follow that up by a big single target heal 1.5 secs after that goes off whereas the Templar is SOL until 15 MINUTES go by. <hr></blockquote>Why are you compairing a 12sec recast to a 15min recast?  Are these actually compairable spells?  The only 15min recast spells I remember us having are our single and group emergency reactives.  Something to keep in mind here is that our direct heals are larger, but cost more power with longer recast/cast.  Furies are more efficient, we do more in one shot.  This was stated when the CU came out.</span><div></div>

[aprilstor]

<P>I'm not exactly sure how much better mystic utility is than clerics?</P> <P>I dont count wards in utility as that is the main way we heal (like reactives and regens)</P> <P>We get a few debuffs and SOW.</P> <P>I'd exchange sow for odyssey, and debuffs for mez. (seems the grass is always greener)</P> <P>My damage is terrible. At 55 I have a one dot that does 97 a tick..one dot that does 121-147 a tick..and one nuke for 170-200. Thats it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>One writer said it took her an hour to do the haunted house. I bet if we raced you would beat me. Yes Im using good equipment (have a cobalt imbue greatspear that hits for 70-100 unless it procs for 200) and thats it.</P> <P>I still don't think I heal as well as a templar...pretty close..but I'd still say 10-15% less effective.</P> <P>So I don't think templars should think they are that bad off. Maybe they arent super 'uber' any more but they still seem to be sitting pretty from my point of view.</P> <P>By the way, as has been said many many times...when I rolled I read the description all healers will heal the same just differently(reactives, regens, wards) that was the only difference. The only reason I chose mystic was I wanted to be a bear over other forms. And yes that was very long ago (started the week EQ2 came out) I suffered through being a major '[Removed for Content]' because I was reassured we would eventually be equal. Why is it that some classes have such a hard time with that? I dont begrudge templars being a bit better at healing than me...Im just glad Im able to play competently now. </P> <P>Magdelina-55.9 mystic LDL</P>

[bigmak20]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quijonsith wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR>All things considered it sure seems to add up to a Fury being the best healer by a significant margin 58+.  They just have more healing capabilities.  Large short cast direct heals, Large group heals, all on seperate timers and short recasts (10-12 sec recast vs Templar's 15 minute recast).<BR><BR>Templar's Divine Arbitration ... ouch.  Had the Adept 3 made -- kind of have to since it's our only immediate tank saver heal.  But [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] does it hurt.  Six group members -- tank is the only one red.  Drop Divine Arbitration Adept 3 and BAM the tank has about half health and everyone else in the group is at about 3/5 ths unless there's a lower level team member and they end up at the low end of yellow.  That's a VERY EXPENSIVE heal.  The return is way too low and the cast timer is way too long but it's our only save heal.  Furies is 1.5 sec cast, 11.5 sec recast, doesn't penalize every member of the group, and can be followed up by a potential 7000 pt group heal 10 secs later (and that does get to yeild max return in many encounters).  They can then follow that up by a big single target heal 1.5 secs after that goes off whereas the Templar is SOL until 15 MINUTES go by.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why are you compairing a 12sec recast to a 15min recast?  Are these actually compairable spells?  The only 15min recast spells I remember us having are our single and group emergency reactives.  Something to keep in mind here is that our direct heals are larger, but cost more power with longer recast/cast.  Furies are more efficient, we do more in one shot.  This was stated when the CU came out.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yes they are acutally comparabe spells.  Healing is relatively balanced across priest 'core' abilities as of LU13.  These spells are the 'comparable' ancient teaching scrolls we get in tier 6.  Right now; it appears the Furies ancient teaching scrolls make them significantly better healers then any other priest class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L52 Templar --  Reverence.  Gives health back for power burned.  Seems like a neat idea but really worthless you're considerably better off casting a minor heal for the mana burned.  When the tank or caster draws aggro are you going to cast this on them then tell them to heal thyself by nuking to draw aggro?  Didn't think so.  Delete from hotbar. 2 min recast.</DIV> <DIV>L52 Fury -- Back Into the Fray -- Heals for 50% of the targets total health if they're less then 50% when cast.  11.5 sec recast. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L55 Templar -- Sanctuary -- 30 Second group immunity from stifle, fear, etc.  Powerful spell; very nice.  Long recast is appropriate for the spells power.  15 min recast</DIV> <DIV>L55 Fury -- Ring of Fire?  Nice AoE Heat Damage Spell</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>L58 Templar -- Devine Arbitration -- Balances the teams health bars across the board with a penalty in the conversion.  The penalty is -steep- even at Adept 3.  It's OK for a quick save spell but has an extremely steep penalty in the conversion -and- in dropping everyone else's health even if there wasn't the conversion penalty.  15 minute recast.</DIV> <DIV>L58 Fury -- Hibernation -- Heals group members for approx 1350 each across the party after a 10 second delay.  10 sec recast. (not postive on the recast was less then 12 sec I think)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The unbalancing effect is the Furies getting powerful heals on seperate timers.  Getting 2 powerful heals as ancient scrolls increases their core healing arsenal by 33% -- from 4 core direct heals to 6.  And the rest of the priests are left holding their original 4.  If the Furies ancient scrolls came with penalities (reducing other team members health) or had long recast timers like the other priests -- then it wouldn't be so unbalancing although it's still very biased.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take a look thru furies healing lineup sometime.  INSTANT direct heals, INSTANT NOT INTERRUPTIBLE ZERO POWER COST heal and agi buff, etc, etc, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furies are the BEST HEALERS by a significant margin most noticably after they get their ancient scrolls spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh.. and Furies are in Tier 1 or 2 DPS.  Must be nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Delete all other classes from the game.  Even the Furies will tell you their all thats needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Quijonsith]

Hmm, I'm only a 52 templar so I didn't know as much about those spells.  Here's the thing, anyone can compair spells that each other gets at specific levels, that doesn't mean it's the same comparison over all the spells of the classes.  Like I said, "best healer" is entirely situational.  It's all about the style of healer you want to be.  I like having reactives for their usefullness in emergencies and multiple adds.  That's my style.  You seem to greatly envy the furies healing style, which leads me to believe perhaps you chose the wrong class to play.  But, that's none of my business.  As far as I'm concerned healing is fairly balanced across the board in my experience and especially dependant on the situation.  My only issues are with my DPS for soloing.  I'm not sure there is much I can say that I haven't already so I'll just sit back and watch the threads till something else comes to mind.  I see your point in compairing those spells, but if I were really worried about it I'd go read the entire spell lines of druids and shamans and make up my opinion.  For now I'll stick with trusting this: http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/news_ff.vm?FeatureName=combatchanges&section=development <p><b>Priest Changes </b></p> <ul> <li>Direct heals (both single-target and group) now have more differentiation among subclasses. Each subclass of Priest has different advantages: </li><ul><li>Inquisitor: Slightly higher efficiency than most instant heals, best repeat spell healing amount for instant heals, fastest reuse timers. </li><li>Templar: Larger heal for increased power cost, less time consumed spent casting heals. </li><li>Warden: Highest efficiency of all heals, best repeat spell healing amount (regen effects from all lines stack). </li><li>Fury: Fastest healer, strong initial burst healing. </li><li>Mystic: Same efficiency as the Inquisitor but slightly longer reuse timers; each heal adds a minor max health increase which allows "overflow" health for the target (health increase from all lines stack). </li><li>Defiler: Matches the potency of Templar heals, but sacrifices some health to defray the overall power cost. </li></ul> </ul> Granted that this is only about direct heals, but to me it's enough to think of overall healing balance this way. <div></div>

[bigmak20]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quijonsith wrote:<BR>Hmm, I'm only a 52 templar so I didn't know as much about those spells.  Here's the thing, anyone can compair spells that each other gets at specific levels, that doesn't mean it's the same comparison over all the spells of the classes.  Like I said, "best healer" is entirely situational.  It's all about the style of healer you want to be.  I like having reactives for their usefullness in emergencies and multiple adds.  That's my style.  You seem to greatly envy the furies healing style, which leads me to believe perhaps you chose the wrong class to play.  But, that's none of my business.  As far as I'm concerned healing is fairly balanced across the board in my experience and especially dependant on the situation.  My only issues are with my DPS for soloing.  I'm not sure there is much I can say that I haven't already so I'll just sit back and watch the threads till something else comes to mind.  I see your point in compairing those spells, but if I were really worried about it I'd go read the entire spell lines of druids and shamans and make up my opinion.  For now I'll stick with trusting this:<BR><BR>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/news_ff.vm?FeatureName=combatchanges§ion=developme nt<BR> <P><B>Priest Changes </B></P> <UL> <LI>Direct heals (both single-target and group) now have more differentiation among subclasses. Each subclass of Priest has different advantages:</LI> <UL> <LI>Inquisitor: Slightly higher efficiency than most instant heals, best repeat spell healing amount for instant heals, fastest reuse timers.</LI> <LI>Templar: Larger heal for increased power cost, less time consumed spent casting heals.</LI> <LI>Warden: Highest efficiency of all heals, best repeat spell healing amount (regen effects from all lines stack).</LI> <LI>Fury: Fastest healer, strong initial burst healing.</LI> <LI>Mystic: Same efficiency as the Inquisitor but slightly longer reuse timers; each heal adds a minor max health increase which allows "overflow" health for the target (health increase from all lines stack).</LI> <LI>Defiler: Matches the potency of Templar heals, but sacrifices some health to defray the overall power cost.</LI></UL></UL><BR>Granted that this is only about direct heals, but to me it's enough to think of overall healing balance this way.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You're comparing core healing up to 50.  We are relatively balanced in core healing up to 50.  Once the ancient spell scrolls are acquired at 52 and 58 (Furies 2 new direct heals on seperate timers) it's game over.  At 58 it isn't situational any longer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[StevusX]

<P>Getting back to the REAL point of this thread and all the other similar ones.......</P> <P>It is the current inability of Templars to SOLO caused by our extremely low dps in relation to mob strenght that is the main CAUSE of most templars complaints since the CU. If you cannot damage a mob faster than it can regen and it can damage you faster than you can heal yourself -  you WILL die. </P> <P>This makes i t impossible to level up in a reasonable time frame without HAVING to group, makes it impossible to complete even NON heroic quests, makes it extremely long winded to kill ANY thing, makes large areas un visitable, and generally makes the game very frustrating and boring.</P> <P>When i joined EQ2 in March i picked a templar because i wanted to be a healer AND BECAUSE IT WAS AT THAT TIME A GOOD CLASS TO SOLO WITH. The CU wiped out half my game. That is not right or fair and most templars will shut up if and when this is corrected by sony. I would also remind people that when i joined EQ2 it was heavily marketed as being a solo friendly game, one of the main reasons i joined. Although i like to group at times and am in a guild, i ALSO, like many people like to solo. Since CU13 it would appear sony have drastically reversed this aim and want to force people to group, as demonstrated by all the 3^^^ mobs literally everywhere. NOT what i paid for.</P> <P>Pretty much ALL my guild members (one of the largest on Runnyeye) agree that templars ability to solo needs to be addressed- regardless of what class they are.</P> <P>A number of SENSIBLE suggestions have been put forward of which the ones i think would work best are....</P> <P>Allow PLATE weilding templars to use medium sheilds ie KITE etc, not just bucklers. this would be in line with the heavy armour.</P> <P>Make plate/sheild reduce the absolutely ridiculus number of interupts. </P> <P>Increase our dps spells SLIGHTLY for soloability reasons, basically in line with the increase in mob powers in CU13.</P> <P> </P> <P>At present, despite having all adept 1's and decent gear i CANNOT kill a multiple mob at my level but i can watch most OTHER classes one or two levels below me come along and wipe them with ease. That is not right and is unfair as many of my guild mates (of all levels) have stated over the last couple of MONTHS.</P> <P>ENOUGH IS ENOUGH </P> <P>All we ask is that SONY balance our class to make it playable, something they SHOULD have done when CU13 was released and is certainly well well overdue now.</P> <P>You will note that the above points have nothing to do with attacking other classes, whos the best healer, blah blah, its about sony making the templar class PLAYABLE again. </P> <P>This was of course written purely from a templar point of view.</P> <P>I am not asking for anything that wasn't already part of the game for me when i joined.</P> <P>If INQs are in the same situation i hope they get fixed as well.</P> <P>Grimheart</P> <P>currently 39 Templar</P> <P>on Runnyeye</P> <P>member of Ascended Heroes</P> <P>PS please no stupid comments about rerolling, a templar is what i have paid for and invested my time in since march therefore i do not see why ANYONE, of any class should be forced to except such major changes to the playability of their class.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StevusX wrote:<BR> <P>It is the current inability of Templars to SOLO caused by our extremely low dps in relation to mob strenght that is the main CAUSE of most templars complaints since the CU. If you cannot damage a mob faster than it can regen and it can damage you faster than you can heal yourself -  you WILL die.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You're <EM>unable</EM> to solo?  I've got two Templars in my guild currently in their 40's who levelled up from their mid 30's largely through soloing since Update 13.  What are they doing differently than you?  Right now, I have more Templars hitting your level range (some of our members have started up Templar Secondaries).  Shall I inform them they'll be <EM>unable</EM> to solo?</P> <P>I don't mean to seem as if I'm picking on you, but right off the bat within your first statements in your first post, you resorted to an extreme statement that is easy to disprove - and you used this as the basis of your entire point.</P> <P>I admit freely that it takes us longer to solo than other classes, and I've listed this as an issue to be looked at in more detail within the Templar forum.  However, that doesn't mean we're <EM>unable</EM> to solo.  I played for 3 years as a cleric in classic Everquest.  I know what it's like to truly be unable to solo...this isn't it.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Meribor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> StevusX wrote: <p>It is the current inability of Templars to SOLO caused by our extremely low dps in relation to mob strenght that is the main CAUSE of most templars complaints since the CU. If you cannot damage a mob faster than it can regen and it can damage you faster than you can heal yourself -  you WILL die.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You're <em>unable</em> to solo?  I've got two Templars in my guild currently in their 40's who levelled up from their mid 30's largely through soloing since Update 13.  What are they doing differently than you?  Right now, I have more Templars hitting your level range (some of our members have started up Templar Secondaries).  Shall I inform them they'll be <em>unable</em> to solo?</p> <p>I don't mean to seem as if I'm picking on you, but right off the bat within your first statements in your first post, you resorted to an extreme statement that is easy to disprove - and you used this as the basis of your entire point.</p> <p>I admit freely that it takes us longer to solo than other classes, and I've listed this as an issue to be looked at in more detail within the Templar forum.  However, that doesn't mean we're <em>unable</em> to solo.  I played for 3 years as a cleric in classic Everquest.  I know what it's like to truly be unable to solo...this isn't it. </p> <hr></blockquote></span><span>I'd be willing to bet that StevusX wasn't being literal with his statements about Templars being unable to solo since they can though it's painfully slow ... that he was exaggerating to get his point across ...  that the seeming inability to solo is why so many have quit playing their Templars.  It's the reason I quit playing her. You almost always seem to take everything literally and respond in kind.  It comes across to me as though you're being deliberately obtuse and obstructive at times.</span>

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>bigmak2010 wrote:<div></div><div> </div> <div>L55 Templar -- Sanctuary -- 30 Second group immunity from stifle, fear, etc.  Powerful spell; very nice.  Long recast is appropriate for the spells power.  15 min recast</div> <div>L55 Fury -- Ring of Fire?  Nice AoE Heat Damage Spell</div> <div> </div></blockquote>Unless it was nerfed recently I'm pretty sure Sanctuary is a 3min recast.   </span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<P>I take people at what they say, not to be obtuse, but to point out how our perceptions are often not in sync with reality.  We "perceive" that it takes "forever" to solo, so I hear claims of "5 minutes to kill a blue*" or "10 minutes to kill a solo mob*", so I wander in and test the claims...to find out it's incorrect.</P> <P>You say I'm obstructing.  I say those hyperboles are the true obstructions.  We're not doing ourselves any favors by exaggerating claims in order to get what we want.  If we solo slower than other classes, that's something that can be verified already - why add the additional exaggerations at all?</P> <P> </P>

[StevusX]

<P>Kendricke,</P> <P>Yes, I exagerated somewhat to draw attention to a serious flaw in the playability of templars as a class.</P> <P>Having looked through this thread and read your comments i can not understand your attitude shown in them.</P> <P>On one hand you seem to agree there is a problem and in the next you constantly run down peoples attempts to highlight and explain how frustrating these problems are</P> <P>Just what is up ?.</P> <P>If you agree there is a problem SUPPORT the players who are commenting on this thread.</P> <P>Otherwise come clean about which side of the line you are on.</P> <P>It will only be with the support of as many players as possible that sony may hopefully, listen, and respond.</P> <P> </P>

[StevusX]

<P>PS Kendricke,</P> <P>People exaggerate for many reasons, one is to demonstrate how seriously they feel.</P> <P>IT DOES NOT INVALIDATE OR LESSEN THEIR ARGUMENT</P> <DIV>I for one definately get the impression from your posts that you are deliberately being obtuse and, to a degree insulting, for reasons i can only guess at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again I repeat, if you agree templars have a problem you should be adding your voice in support, not picking spurious holes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StevusX wrote:<BR> <P>Kendricke,</P> <P>Yes, I exagerated somewhat to draw attention to a serious flaw in the playability of templars as a class.</P> <P>Having looked through this thread and read your comments i can not understand your attitude shown in them.</P> <P>On one hand you seem to agree there is a problem and in the next you constantly run down peoples attempts to highlight and explain how frustrating these problems are</P> <P>Just what is up ?.</P> <P>If you agree there is a problem SUPPORT the players who are commenting on this thread.</P> <P>Otherwise come clean about which side of the line you are on.</P> <P>It will only be with the support of as many players as possible that sony may hopefully, listen, and respond.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Just because I support the players doesn't mean I turn a blind eye to intentional hyperbole and exaggerated claims.  I support my brother, and love him very much...but that doesn't mean I don't admonish him if I catch him lying to me, does it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't assume you know that SOE will only listen to those who scream the loudest.  I've met the developers and spoken to them on the subject, and I can tell you that just because a wheel is squeaking loudly doesn't mean it gets greased.  The right wheels get the grease.  Loud does not equate to correct. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's like crying wolf.  Just because you keep telling the townsfolk that a wolf's attacking all the time doesn't mean they're going to continue to believe you.  Once you've earned a reputation for exaggerating the situation, you may just find yourself ignored - even if you suddenly find a real problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Salmastryon]

Umm...  posting false statements does not highlight an issue.  A false statement or facts exagerated to the point of fallacy has the opposite effect.  They clouds the issue and cast statements made in conjuction with them in a dubious light.   If you want to get issues addressed cold hard facts are tough thing to refutable, while exgerations quickly are torn down. <div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StevusX wrote:<BR> <P>People exaggerate for many reasons, one is to demonstrate how seriously they feel.</P> <P>IT DOES NOT INVALIDATE OR LESSEN THEIR ARGUMENT</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Actually, that's exactly what happens - exaggerations weaken arguments.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you did is an example of the Subverted Support logical fallacy.  Basically, you tried to explain a situation which really doesn't exist in the first place.  You based your argument on the assumption that Templars are unable to solo...when in fact Templars can solo.  Therefore, your argument was based on a non-existant "fact".  In actuality, since your conclusions were based on manufactured evidence, the entire argument was false from the word go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, it's a good bet that Moorgard (with the English degree, remember) may actually have recognized this as I worded it.  I wouldn't count on it though...especially for most of the developers.  More than likely, they simply saw your post saying Templars are "unable" to solo and recognized yet another player on the forums exaggerating a claim.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's over 50,000 posts on the forums every day.  Do you really think that by exaggeration and hyperbole you're going to set yourself apart?  Do you think that's what's going to get you taken seriously here...especially by developers?  You think they've never seen that tactic used before?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the love of all that's holy, man, I was using that tactic in my early teens to get out of the house, and my parents didn't fall for it then, either: <EM> "But I'll be the ONLY one not there tonight"; "EVERYONE else is doing it"; "You won't let me go out because you HATE me".</EM>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Quiet Wand]

<DIV> <DIV>~L52 Fury -- Back Into the Fray -- Heals for 50% of the targets total health if they're less then 50% when cast.  11.5 sec recast. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, it heals 1200-1500(adept 3) when the character less then 50% . otherwise it heals for 600-750, at least it can still heals more then my lvl 60 Nature elixir , 940-1140ish . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Oh.. and Furies are in Tier 1 or 2 DPS.  Must be nice. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furies will never beat an T1 or T2 in dps. I did beat an assassin once, before their update, against a group encounter. Though, I can sometimes beat Troub and Pallys, (haven't played with an Illusionist in a while),  </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>~Take a look thru furies healing lineup sometime.  INSTANT direct heals, INSTANT NOT INTERRUPTIBLE ZERO POWER COST heal and agi buff, etc, etc, etc.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not sure what your trying to say here. Instant? 1 sec on minor heals and 1.5 on major heals, same with Wardens(  however have longer recast time I believe). These are interruptible and cost power. They don't buff though. </DIV></DIV>

[StevusX]

<P>Again a spurious argument Kendricke.</P> <P>If you don't kick up a fuss then for sure NOTHING will get done about it.</P> <P>I am sure sony are aware of the situation as after all they only have to test it.</P> <P>BUT will they commit to changing anything if people do not "yell" as loud as they can, maybe, maybe not, but the more people that complain, in whatever fashion, the more likely sony are to take notice. That is human nature. That is, for good or bad, sometimes the only way that works.</P> <P>As i stated this situation has been around since September. Plenty long enough for sony to realise their is a problem and to come up with reasonable solutions.</P> <P>THEY changed my character from what i originally signed up for and paid for and developed.</P> <P>Therefore i feel i have a perfect right to exaggerate to get my point across and to get noticed.</P> <P>It would be nice you you would response more constructively to this thread and the reasons for my post and the suggestions in it.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Salmastryon]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>StevusX wrote:<p>Again a spurious argument Kendricke.</p> <p>If you don't kick up a fuss then for sure NOTHING will get done about it.</p> <p>I am sure sony are aware of the situation as after all they only have to test it.</p> <p>BUT will they commit to changing anything if people do not "yell" as loud as they can, maybe, maybe not, but the more people that complain, in whatever fashion, the more likely sony are to take notice. That is human nature. That is, for good or bad, sometimes the only way that works.</p> <p>As i stated this situation has been around since September. Plenty long enough for sony to realise their is a problem and to come up with reasonable solutions.</p> <p>THEY changed my character from what i originally signed up for and paid for and developed.</p> <p>Therefore i feel i have a perfect right to exaggerate to get my point across and to get noticed.</p> <p>It would be nice you you would response more constructively to this thread and the reasons for my post and the suggestions in it.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>But the thing is his point isn't pointless.  You exageration in serveral places of the post, makes your post not constructive at all.  In fact, it lends crediancy to the fact that it isn't a problem at all.  Exageration and creating points to prove an arguement is not effective unless the reader believes them to be true.  Since the devs and other players of EQ2 can easily spot the fallacies the whole exercise is contraproductive.  Cutting off a discussion growing out of false statements is a good thing. The same post with correct information would be much more constructive and would open up a constructive discussion.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Salmastryon on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:58 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StevusX wrote:<BR> <P>If you don't kick up a fuss then for sure NOTHING will get done about it.</P> <P>I am sure sony are aware of the situation as after all they only have to test it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I never kicked up a fuss and yet I've gotten a lot accomplished through suggestions, data collection, feedback, and various other means of constructive criticism. </P> <P>Do you really think the developers are stupid?  I ask this because the only way I can comprehend that you'd feel you need to present your case based on false facts to begin with is if you think the developers are not intelligent enough to actually run some numbers or check some tests to see if your statements are true.  Do you really think that saying Templars are "unable to solo" will suddenly stop development cold while they put in an emergency hotfix to allow Templars to solo? </P> <P>Have you even read what the developers have written regarding soloing?  You do realize that statements have been made within the past couple of months that clearly shows that it is by intentional design that not all classes solo equally.  You realize also that many, many Templars solo every day.</P> <P>So are you really going to stick to your guns on why you feel exaggeration is an appropriate mature technique to get what you want?</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:58 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salmastryon wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>But the thing is his point isn't pointless.  You exaguration throughout the whole post not just the soloing bit, make your post not conctructive at all.  In fact it lends crediancy to the fact that it isn't a problem at all.  Exageration and creating points to prove an arguement is not effective unless the reader believes them to be true.  Since the devs and other players of EQ2 can easily spot the fallacies the whole exercise is contraproductive.  Cutting off a discussion growing out of false statements is a good thing.<BR><BR>The same post with correct information would be much more constructive and would open up a constructive discussion.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Excellent points.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[StevusX]

<P>Okay</P> <P>I've had enough of your insults Kendicke.</P> <P>I do not know or care why you feel you have to keep on doing so.   </P> <P>My original post was an attempt to get this thread back on the problems facing soloing templars and all you have done since is run me down in an underhand manner comparing me to a naughty child etc etc.</P> <P>You obviously do NOT want to discuss the templar issues as you have ignored every single one of my posts requesting that we do so.</P> <P>I have found your manner towards me both condescending and insulting. </P> <P>Does it make you feel superior in some way ?</P> <P> </P> <DIV>I'm off this thread.</DIV>

[jbacks]

<P>kendricke - "You do realize that statements have been made within the past couple of months that clearly shows that it is by intentional design that not all classes solo equally."</P> <P>i did not realize this. did they list an order of solo ability too? and if they did deviate from their original concept of soloing, which i had thought was that all classes can solo equally, and this after a year of playing, then let me please /respec my class.</P> <P>let everyone have a one-use class change stone as a reward for playing for a year.</P> <P>let anyone log into the test server as any class at any level with set levels of gear/spells so we can do real, verifiable testing.</P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div><p>I never kicked up a fuss and yet I've gotten a lot accomplished through suggestions, data collection, feedback, and various other means of constructive criticism. </p><p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class="date_text">11-18-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:58 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Bah, I am pretty sure now that you are the main reason templars suck as badly as they do. It is all about your attitude towards other people. Templars are not the best healers as it has been pointed out, and templars are the worst dps and worst soloing class. And what are you doing? Focusing on putting people down instead of trying to get fixes.</span><div></div>

[Quijonsith]

This discussion is about templar issues, not your personal bickerings.  Granted that I'm a bit guilty of this myself by posting this (and may be guilty of it in the past, but trying not to be), please... PLEASE take personal issues to PM's.  If you get a personal attack or flaimbate talk to each other in PM's and resolve like reasonable adults.  Stop derailing this thread and stop flaiming eachother. Bigmack:  I see your point about the spells you posted.  I'm only level 52 so I don't know a whole lot about the 50-60 game.  Still in the 50 and below mindset.  I'd see that as something for the devs to look into. <div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>If anyone cares for the facts I can say that the facts bigmak posted on fury spells are mostly false as Quietwanderer pointed out.</P> <P>If you would like to show how powerful fury spells are (compared to templars') maybe you should give people the right info instead of making up the spell discriptions thats bs bigmak.</P> <P>And you should change your info there as it is false.</P> <P> </P>

[Zenshi]

<P><SPAN class=time_text>well, to get this back on track of the OP's post:</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I would LOVE to have more DPS as an inquisitor (or at least equal to my Fury! lol)  i'd also love to have an Invis, SoW or FD spell, but since i've earned 40-60% xp of each level from 51-60 solo. I guess I didn't really need them :smileyhappy:</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I'm happy that Furies, etc are getting better healing - cause after the CU, my fury's heals sucked.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>As to the group/lack of groups issue: I've had no problems getting into pick-up raids or xp or loot groups</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>. I'm not in a raiding guild. I didn't have "fixed groups" to xp with. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Actually, there was this 1 time in PoF; the GL thought that since they already had a Templar - they didnt need a 2nd plate cleric and instead went with a warden.  I went off soloing near them and watched em wipe. It was sooo nice to walk over and gloat while he was asking for a res <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... hey, I am -supposed- to be evil. :smileymad:</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>This game is what you make of it - you want to be unhappy - you'll be unhappy.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>It's been said in many other threads - certain types of heals are better vs certain mobs and with certain types of tanks. I never expected to be teh ubah healz!1!! but then again I never played eq1 so had no misconceptions about how clerics should work in eq2.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Zenshi on <span class=date_text>11-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:36 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<P>Templar healing is not equal. Templars are supposed to sp[end less time casing, yet if you look, Druids just stated, 1 and 1.5 second cast times for DH. Templars are 2 and 3 second cast time. Templars have a limiting number of lines. Furies get 2 additional heal lines post 50. Then they get an extra AE line also post 50. The net result is that certain healing classes are NOWHERE near equal. </P> <P>In situations Templars are better healers, true. In certain situations Druids are better healers, again True. But Furies are much better (think factors here) at killing when they want to solo. I know, I have a Fury. I have gained 26 levels with her in under 2 weeks. </P> <P>Solutions: ????</P> <P>Seperate out some DH heal lines for Templars. Start with the Splitpaw one. Maybe add another DH line to us whether it be group or solo target. </P> <P>Lower our cast times for heals, YOU SoE stated we would spend less time casting yet we have the longest cast times. Compound that with our interrupt problem and you can see where that leads. Interrupt Interrupt Fizzle Shard recovery.</P> <P>Double or triple the damage on our damage spells and double or triple the power cost or give us some type of offensive stance, i.e. a self only (holy or Unholy) Damage Shield that grows with us as we level.</P> <P>Allow Clerics the use of round and/or Kite Shields. </P> <P>Give us feedback every once in a while, the only time I can get anybody from SoE on to the Templar forums is when I flame Kendrick.</P>

[Helmarf]

<DIV> <DIV>I wrote on the templar forum for a couple of weaks ago that after lvl 54 its getting litlle better, less interupts and fizzles and all that. But i cant say its getting more fun. And i allways get that felling that there is something that is not right n matter what kind of mobs you fight solo/group. I just finished the The bone bladed claymore HQ for a couple of hours ago and there we have this part "kill 1000 undead", best and fastest way to do that would be around the 2 big citys. So we started outside Freeport whit the ghost orcs. Lvl 59 templar cobalt armour, screaming mace, pearl orb, imbued ironwood buckler and full buffed whit my own and the other groupmembers buffs, here we go i thought. The first orc managed to inflict bleed on me the fift orc managed to inflict mangle on me and so it went on and on till we have killed all 1000, and i say like this PLEASE give us buck the higher base block % on the buckler and litlle higher base avoidance and make us litlle more capable to fight whit our weapons,for in the end we are fighter priest!</DIV></DIV>

[jpbaeten]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Quiet Wander wrote:<div> <div>~L52 Fury -- Back Into the Fray -- Heals for 50% of the targets total health if they're less then 50% when cast.  11.5 sec recast. </div> <div> </div> <div>No, it heals 1200-1500(adept 3) when the character less then 50% . otherwise it heals for 600-750, at least it can still heals more then my lvl 60 Nature elixir , 940-1140ish . </div> <div> </div> <div>~Oh.. and Furies are in Tier 1 or 2 DPS.  Must be nice. <div> </div> <div>Furies will never beat an T1 or T2 in dps. I did beat an assassin once, before their update, against a group encounter. Though, I can sometimes beat Troub and Pallys, (haven't played with an Illusionist in a while),  </div></div> <div> </div> <div> <div><b>~Take a look thru furies healing lineup sometime.  INSTANT direct heals, INSTANT NOT INTERRUPTIBLE ZERO POWER COST heal and agi buff, etc, etc, etc.</b></div></div> <div><b> </b></div> <div><b>I'm not sure what your trying to say here. Instant? 1 sec on minor heals and 1.5 on major heals, same with Wardens(  however have longer recast time I believe). These are interruptible and cost power. They don't buff though.</b> </div></div><hr></blockquote> He is talking about our emergency heals and the Vehemence (if target ally receives damage that would be fatal...) line. Well, those are the only spells I could imagine he would be talking about anyway.</span><div></div>

[Quiet Wand]

<DIV>~Templar healing is not equal. Templars are supposed to spend less time casing, yet if you look, Druids just stated, 1 and 1.5 second cast times for DH. Templars are 2 and 3 second cast time. Templars have a limiting number of lines. Furies get 2 additional heal lines post 50. Then they get an extra AE<FONT color=#cc3366>(this is a true AE, which comes with its own set of problems)</FONT> line also post 50. The net result is that certain healing classes are NOWHERE near equal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff66><STRONG>(this is from a thread when the first changes came out. I dont think much has change though from this format, if you see something need changing :smileyhappy:&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff66><STRONG>Inquisitor:</STRONG><BR>Slightly better efficiency than most instant heals<BR>Best repeat spell healing amount for instant heals<BR>Fastest reuse timers<BR><BR><B>Templar:</B><BR>Increased Heal for increased power cost<BR><STRONG><FONT color=#cc3366>Less time consumed spent casting heals</FONT>.<BR></STRONG><BR><B>Warden: (now have same casting times as Furies, not recast)</B><BR>Best efficiency of all heals<BR>Best repeat spell healing amount<BR>(Regen effects from all 3 warden healing spell lines DO stack with each other)<BR><BR><B>Fury:</B><BR><FONT color=#cc0066><STRONG>Fastest healer:smileyhappy:<BR></STRONG></FONT>Strong initial burst healing<BR><BR><B>Mystic:</B><BR>Same efficiency as the inquisitor, but slightly longer reuse timers<BR>Each heal adds a short duration small +HP Max increase to store health in the extra hit points<BR>(HP Max effects from all 3 shaman healing spell lines DO stack with each other)<BR><BR><B>Defiler:</B><BR>Same healing increased heals as the templar<BR>Decreased power cost compared to templar, but at the sacrifice of the defiler’s health <BR><BR>The following spell lines were balanced using a composite score of:<BR><BR>Healing Efficiency = Healed/Power<BR>Single Spell Burst = Amount Healed / Second<BR>Time Consumed on Casting/Recovery = [ 60s / (Cast + Recast + Recovery) ] * ( Cast + Recovery )<BR><BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ccff66><FONT face="Courier New">Healing Line( Minor heal line)<BR>Classes: Temp / Inqu / Ward / Fury / Myst / Defi<BR>Cast:    2      2      1      1      2      2<BR>Recast:  6      4      5      5      5      6<BR>Power:   1.16x  1x     1x     0.8x   1x     1x/1x<BR>Heal:    8.65x  7.5x   8.5x   6x     8.65x  8.65x<BR><BR>Warden heal over time specifics: (4x + 0.75x / 6s)<BR><BR><BR>Arch Healing Line(Major)<BR>Classes: Temp / Inqu / Ward / Fury / Myst / Defi<BR>Cast:    3      3      1.5    1.5    3      3<BR>Recast:  11.5   8      10     8.5    10     11.5<BR>Power:   2x     1.65x  1.65x  1.32x  1.65x  1.65x/1.65x<BR>Heal:    15x    12.5x  15x    10x    12.5x  15x<BR><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New">Warden heal over time specifics: </FONT><FONT face="Courier New">(6x + 0.75x / 12s)</FONT><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New"><BR><BR><FONT color=#ccff66>Group Healing Line ( group instant, not speciality) <BR>Classes: Temp / Inqu / Ward / Fury / Myst / Defi<BR>Cast:    3      3      2.5    1.5    3      3<BR>Recast:  9      6      7.5    7.5    7.5    9<BR>Power:   2.32x  2x     2x     1.6x   2x     2x/1.5x<BR>Heal:    9.89x  8.57x  10x    6.86x  8.57x  9.89x<BR><BR>Warden heal over time specifics: (4.75x + 0.75x / 6s)</FONT></FONT></DIV> <P>Cow makes a point, I'm not sure how Templars are spending less time actually casting . Unless they meant Temp having the longest recast, but they're tied with Defilers. Or they could have meant Temps could heal less with DH with their heal procs and reactives. </P> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Quiet Wander on <SPAN class=date_text>11-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:58 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Quiet Wander on <span class=date_text>11-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:00 PM</span>

[Goozman]

<DIV>I stopped reading at about page 4, but I wanted to post anyway!<BR></DIV> <DIV>I pretty much have to back up most of what Eldarn said. But there are some things people posted which I can't quite wrap my head around... One of them being this "Inquisitors suck and do no damage thing". Inquisitors have 11 spells affected by INT (one is the lame level 35 spell tho), that's the highest of any priest, nearly 2x the amount of dmg spells as Fury. Inquisitors have the potential for Immense damage (mostly vs a single target), and with a good amount of INT, a huge amount of their spells are directly affected and improved. If Inquisitors are doing Templar damage, they just ain't playing right... or they are fighting an undead mage mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also it was pointed out, I believe by Eldarn, that Inq and Warden dps suck... That's not true exactly. As previously mentioned, Inquisitors are quite good (it is situational, but the situations are common... like Fury!). Wardens are good damage now also. Someone said they don't even do half the dps of Furies... rofl, that's not true, they do about 85% the dps of Furies, Check my post history to find the huge damage research I did on that. Inquisitors, Wardens, and Furies are good damage now, and I read that Defilers are quite good too. Templars are the worst dps class in the game now, everyone knows, it was intended... but they aren't far behind the next 7 or so low dps classes.</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goozman wrote:<BR> <DIV>I stopped reading at about page 4, but I wanted to post anyway!<BR></DIV> <DIV>I pretty much have to back up most of what Eldarn said. But there are some things people posted which I can't quite wrap my head around... One of them being this "Inquisitors suck and do no damage thing". Inquisitors have 11 spells affected by INT (one is the lame level 35 spell tho), that's the highest of any priest, nearly 2x the amount of dmg spells as Fury. Inquisitors have the potential for Immense damage (mostly vs a single target), and with a good amount of INT, a huge amount of their spells are directly affected and improved. If Inquisitors are doing Templar damage, they just ain't playing right... or they are fighting an undead mage mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also it was pointed out, I believe by Eldarn, that Inq and Warden dps suck... That's not true exactly. As previously mentioned, Inquisitors are quite good (it is situational, but the situations are common... like Fury!). Wardens are good damage now also. Someone said they don't even do half the dps of Furies... rofl, that's not true, they do about 85% the dps of Furies, Check my post history to find the huge damage research I did on that. Inquisitors, Wardens, and Furies are good damage now, and I read that Defilers are quite good too. Templars are the worst dps class in the game now, everyone knows, it was intended... but they aren't far behind the next 7 or so low dps classes.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Oh I didnt know that it was intended. Can you show me where Devs said that was intended? Can you show me where it was stated there would be a factor of 3 times damage within the same tier?</P> <P>No you cannot. Thanks for playing.</P>

[Goozman]

<P>Well I kinda said I'd never respond to your idiocy again... but oh well.</P> <P>Fifth group: </P> <UL> <LI>Fury/Warden <LI>Defiler/Mystic <LI>Inquisitor/Templar</LI></UL> <DIV>It was stated, altho Inquisitor would be higher than Mystic. And your comment about another class doing 3x the damage in the same tier isn't true, so there's no point arguing with it.</DIV>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Goozman wrote:<p>Well I kinda said I'd never respond to your idiocy again... but oh well.</p> <p>Fifth group: </p> <ul> <li>Fury/Warden </li><li>Defiler/Mystic </li><li>Inquisitor/Templar</li></ul> <div>It was stated, altho Inquisitor would be higher than Mystic. And your comment about another class doing 3x the damage in the same tier isn't true, so there's no point arguing with it.</div><hr></blockquote>Wrong Gooz.  Furies are atleast 3x the DPS of Templars in most fights.  If you stretch out an encounter over minutes their "balanced" within reason -- unless you look at group encounters and Furies are way off the priest charts for those. When was the last time a solo fight for a fury lasted minutes?  Never? When was the last time a solo fight for a templar lasted minutes? Routine. And that is the problem. Measure DPS over 30 seconds to properly gauge a classes ability to fight and in particular their ability to solo.  Unless your ascertion is that clerics should solo 3 times slower and that's 'working as intended' (that's where the 3x comes from btw, maybe a change of terms is in order?).</span>

[Blambil]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR>I'll ask here, last time I asked I went unanswered. Are your mezzes so completely useless to warrant never being mentioned by a templar? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV>Yes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Erurat]

<div></div>This has been said before so I'll just keep it short.  I played a Templar to be superior healer, plain and simple.  I don't care about equaling my nukes to those of a fury nor do I care about being able to root or being able to "crowd" control.  I want to heal best, period. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Erurat on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:01 PM</span>

[bigmak20]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erurat wrote:<BR> This has been said before so I'll just keep it short.  <BR><BR>I played a Templar to be superior healer, plain and simple.  I don't care about equaling my nukes to those of a fury nor do I care about being able to root or being able to "crowd" control.  I want to heal best, period. <BR> <P>Message Edited by Erurat on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Almost all Templars agree on that point Erurat.  Sony has other plans.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><BR>Sony has other plans. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What plans would those be?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Fury in my guild parsed 600 dps in Icy Dig against the multi mob encounters, I managed 100 spamming AE and HO nukes heh. I didnt choose a priest to do dps though, I hoped Clerics would have a healing edge because well like it is now we are all pretty balanced healers but then Druids have top dps, broader utility, shammies have better dps and broader utility. All our utility is healing based yet with all of it working we still only come out as a balanced healer. So overall the priest classes arent balanced, and as Druids and Shammies agree in my guild this all 6 classes will heal exactly the same is boring. Glory of Combat as part of our helaing utility is also too random and unreliable too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If priest classes are going to be truely balanced it needs to be in all areas but all we will end up with is 6 of the same class and different names.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healing needs to be balanced properly, utility balanced, nukes balanced, buffs balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atm Cleric Shammy single target main buff is hp, Druids buff mana and int or wis, this is not balanced for Druids in terms of what they bring to a grp for tanks, especially on raids, its not balanced between priests when playing a support role as druids become the supreme support priest as they have much more mana and can buff theirs groups mana which is better in a support role than hp (based on grp set up raid etc)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue is if we are all balance so much u may aswell scrap 5 classes and just end up with "Priests"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To create diversity between the 6 you cant balance healing and then have unbalanced damage, buffs and utility that ultimatly leaves Druids at the top Shammies in the middle and Clerics at the bottom in all round class balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If druids are going to be the top dps they need to be the bottom in something else for example.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healing should be different, or if you wont do that like in EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make healing equal, Druid top dps, Shammy top debuff, Cleric top buffer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunatly its probably more complicated than that as you come to soloing too, self buffed in eqivalent gear and same class + traits 6 Erudite's of each priest class stood next to each other would not be equal. Their stats would be unbalanced, their ability to solo would be unbalanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Clerics are to have the lowest dps always, even vs undead we are still lower than a druid, our best nuke hitting for 2x dmg is still less overall damage than the t6 druid single target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The solution is to not try and balance people in all aspects of the class because you either do it wrong or do it so much that everyone becomes too alike, each archtype has to be better at something. Atm Clerics are left short with having the lowest dps, healing based utility that is added the direct healing to create balanced healing compared to other classes, and our buffs are nothing special, shammies are better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe shammy druid should buff the same hp and mana but with diff special stats for all priests</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clerics should be AC again as their speciality with str and wis, wis for priest ofc and str as heavy armour wearer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shammy should buff str sta agi wis (not as high as cleric druid), wis as priest, str sta agi as they have nice all round buffs, to compliment their style and offer a nice addition to a party.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druids should buff agi int and wis, druids should be able to fill the MT grp role well with extra stacking hp, agi wis int, but also be able to fill a nice support role and expand their destructive side. Nuking healing, supporting Mage groups with healing but also enhancing their damage abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shammies would be the melee stat buffer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clerics would fit in many situations with better group buffs of hp and mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All 3 would be needed in the MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then you could keep healing balanced but give us some diversity again with the way classes work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Removing all the secondary effects from priests heals and buffs was such a poor move, you basically removed half of what our classes could do and started trashing away at diversity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you wont take steps to try and give diversity back and make different priests diverse yet fun and a good addition to groups and all 6 needed in raids then something needs to be done for clerics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You could improved dps, improve utility, take a wild step and improve heals above the other 2 archtypes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah well enough very late night rambling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and btw, Templar spend less time casting, 2 and 3 sec cast times with 6 and 12 sec recast times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All Templars spend less time casting with our long recast times means is we spend more times waiting for heals to be recastable while watching a tank die and being able to do nothing about it, reactives dont stack with inq reactives, reactives block druid regen atm. As a Templar outside of the MT group atm you have 2 spells you can use to heal on very long recast timers. A lot of the time its no fun. And well I guess atleast we can put some debuffs on the mob which dont really help much, druids are stuck with pure healing, no debuffs at all. Bring back druid debuffing Fire from EQ1 ! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know some people dont like the EQ1 priests and some dont like people talking about them but 500 years ago Druid Shammy Cleric are far better than today Warden Fury Mystic Defiler Inquisitor Templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atleast back then you decided right Id like to heal a bit but be able to do some good damage, solo well and have some nice utility, Ill be a druid and offer a good addition to any grp or raid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or Id like to heal well, buff a bit of a buff master buffing bloody everything, have a pet, have some nice utility with haste and slow Ill be a shammy and offer a good addition to any grp or raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or Id like to be a pure healer with top heals top hp buffs and AC buffs, bugger all dps but I dont care, I want to heal buff noobs, cure and help everyone all the time because I LOVE HEALING and choose a cleric, offer a good addition to any grp or raid <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah well <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<P>FYI</P> <P>My 27 Fury has a 800 point max single target nuke. Lightning bolt as I recall is the name.</P> <P>Are there any Templars of any level with a spell that strong (not to include the specialty race spells i.e. gnoll, giant etc. etc.) that can be used on any target?</P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goozman wrote:<BR> <P>Well I kinda said I'd never respond to your idiocy again... but oh well.</P> <P>Fifth group: </P> <UL> <LI>Fury/Warden <LI>Defiler/Mystic <LI>Inquisitor/Templar</LI></UL> <DIV>It was stated, altho Inquisitor would be higher than Mystic. And your comment about another class doing 3x the damage in the same tier isn't true, so there's no point arguing with it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Seems to me you answered my post. Well here goes, you see that, they are all in the same group, same tier. Same damage in theory.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <div>What plans would those be?</div> <hr></blockquote>You mean all your posts about templars have been BS? Since youhave claimed that all healers are equal according to SoE and now you dont have a clue what are SoE's plans for templars when they dont plan to make templars the best healers? Templars are not the best healers. There is one situation where we are and that is multiple mobs hitting mt. That is the only situation where templars have about 20% better healing ability than other classes. In any other situation we are from 20% to 80% worse than the best class. Take a mob that hits for AA damage. We are really terrible at that and furies outheal us 4 to 1 minimun. Take a mob that hits rarely but for a lot of damage. We need to heal with our direct heals while HoT's heal while the mob is not hitting. Our DPS is also the worst in game and our utility is based on the streaking RNG. My monk has an ability that has a chance to break with damage, now it breaks far more often than my mark line procs at 20%. And I doubt the intended rate for that effect to break is higher than 20%. So SoE definately has other plans than to keep templar a viable class to play.</span><div></div>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <DIV>What plans would those be?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You mean all your posts about templars have been BS? Since youhave claimed that all healers are equal according to SoE and now you dont have a clue what are SoE's plans for templars when they dont plan to make templars the best healers?<BR></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>All my posts are what?!  </P> <P>I've never stated that "all healers are equal" according to SOE.  In fact, I've made several posts where I very clearly tried to explain the difference between "all healers are equal" and "all healers can handle the same basic function".  Prior to the revamp, Furies, Mystics, and other healers simply could not heal in many group situations effectively.  The baseline for most healers was so much lower than the abilities of Templars that it was night and day.  While I could personally barely pay attention to a fight and still keep everyone standing, other healers had to be absolutely on top of their game to keep up...and many times that simply wasn't enough.</P> <P>Now, the baseline's more even.  All priests can hit that baseline.  Templars still exceed it by quite a wide margin, but as some have pointed out (including myself), a great deal of our healing ability is wasted in the average situation now.  We need challenging situations and groups.  We need harder encounters.  We work incredibly well in those situations - where someone absolutely needs a full time healer (not a part time healer / part time damage dealer).  That's our new bread and butter.  </P> <P>I shine in non-traditional groups now.  My own guild is low on fighters in general, so I tend to find myself with anywhere from one to four swashbucklers leading the charge.  In those situations, I'm still able to keep everyone standing (which is strange considering all the posts immediately after the revamp which claimed Templars couldn't keep their groups standing).  In traditional groups with a warrior, paladin, or monk tanking for us, I'm still better...provided the group chain pulls and keeps killing faster.  </P> <P>Templars shine in groups where full time healing is needed; where you're casting heals as fast as they come up; when you don't have time to do anything <EM>except</EM> heal.  Unfortunately most groups play it relatively safe, and only require a part time healer.  That's the real problem...not whether or not Templars heal for enough.  In a part time healing situation, every priest is fine. </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Edyil]

<P>You people spend way too much time in your neighbors sand box.  Worry about your own class and stop the inept and idiotic comparisons.</P> <P>My daily group is Monk (Me), Warden, (GF sitting next to me), Warlock (RL best friend), Templar (his GF sitting next to him).</P> <P>The truth of the matter is, compared to me, the warden and the templar totally suck at damage.  Their contribution is visiable but nothing to speak.  Another truth of the matter is that the Warlock makes my damage look like a pillow fight and he makes the damage the Warden and Templar do combined to be all but meaningless.  Working as intended?  You bet your complaing [Removed for Content] it is.  And we are all very happy with it.</P> <P>Now, if you want to talk about the ability to solo, the Templars need a buff of some sort for solo melee.  Sort of like the EQ1 Yaulp.  It would work because in a group they would be focusing on healing and reduce the value of Yaulp.  But solo they could significally increase their <STRONG>damage</STRONG> (Stop saying DPS.  The term is meaningless when discussing a healing class.  If you can't even get that straight then don't post) by casting a Reactive, then Yaulp and  then melee the target down.  Yaulp could be a 4s buff with a 6s recast, which would work nicely to get the next Reactive up before recasting Yaulp.</P> <P>Finally, nobody EVER said that all subclasses of a class will be equal.  They said they will be approximate.  Which they are.  The Warden and the Templar are very different.  Both are very very valuable.  Both are desired.  If you would stop doing direct comparisons and actually play your class, you might enjoy it (solo ability aside).  Just keep in mind that at the bottom tier, it will take a long time to solo anything down.  If you don't like that, then you have no choice but to change tiers, which means to re-roll.  Also keep in mind that you can spec your toon any way you want.  Say to hell with Wis and go for Int gear.  You WILL see a big difference in damage.  This path is totaly viable for a solo Templar.  If you want the best of both worlds, sorry.  None of us have that.</P> <p>Message Edited by Edyil on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:33 AM</span>

[Vikto]

<P>I didn't think I would, but I actually spent the time to read through all 8 pages of this thread (well, reading/skimming trying to pick up the pertinent points of this thread). To be honest, I really know very little of the inner workings of the templar class, or for most of the healing classes for that matter. However, the Fury class has been brought up as an example in many of the replies, so I will make my comments in respect to that.</P> <P>I've played a Fury since release of EQ2. My reason for picking a Fury was because from the info on the EQ2 site at the time, it was stated that Furies would be strong offensively (read: doing damage to opponents) but that all healers would be able to accomplish their jobs of keeping their groups alive equally, albeit in different ways in which one way would be better than another depending on the situation. After 50 levels of playing a Fury, months before the CU, this turned out to not be entirely true. Yes, we were pretty decent offensively for a priest (DDs, DoTs, Procs, and a watered down version of the AE nuke we currently have), but in the healing department we were severely lacking. During my time before the CU, I honed my skills playing my Fury to be able to keep groups alive in normal exp'ing as solo healer at the expense of rarely being able to throw in any DPS contribution. </P> <P>However, even concentrating fully on just healing, there was rarely a group I was in that someone didn't die, and sometimes despite my best efforts, there were full wipes. I know I'm a good player, but a fury just couldn't handle anything more than 1 encounter at a time in a group situation then, and depending on if the group was pulling orange / red cons, not even that. Those situations I've seen even the laziest Templar handle with ease back then. How do I know? I can't count the number of times I've been in groups that had a Templar in it where we were doing encounters that on a previous occasion where I was the healer we had a wipe, but now were taking with little effort. Even with multiple adds. I wouldn't heal at all, I'd just throw out the DPS as I could. The Templar had it covered. That right there almost made me quit. I didn't want to reroll because my play style fits with the Fury, even with the sucky healing we had, because it took skill to tackle the sole healing role in a group as a Fury. It was extremely frustrating though to extremely handicapped to do my main role in the group simply because I didn't have the proper tools (read: healing spells that were scaled to handle the damage) to do it. </P> <P>Now we have had the Combat Update. Healing across the board was revamped and balanced out. I can finally call myself a healer........but you know what? I still have to spam healing spells. Sure, they're powerful enough now to easily handle incoming damage most times. Sure, I can now be sole healer in a group and everyone lives even through multiple encounters at the same time. Sure, I can even keep a nuke-happy wizard / warlock alive when they grab aggro if I'm on the ball. But I still spam my heal spells, which means I'm not contributing to DPS. I don't put out 150 - 200 DPS if I'm main healer. I can't. That's not my job at that time. </P> <P>By the way, a group can replace me with any other healer in the game and make little difference to their ability to do an encounter. My 150 - 300 or whatever DPS (I've parsed my groups on occasion, I run 170 - 210 on average depending on resists and if I'm not main healer, more if we're doing multiple mob encounters). That's all of what? 2 - 6 seconds faster killing depending on what's being killed? Yeah, if I'm running in DPS mode, a group can kill things a little faster which means more kills / exp in the long run. In situations like that however, I'm only in the group as insurance. Put out DPS until / unless something goes wrong and then switch to heal mode. My DPS when I'm main healer runs about 50 - 90 depending on the difficulty of the encounter. If it's a raid, my DPS is much lower because I'm there in my healing capacity, not DPS. That same group, if they replaced me with any  mage / scout / most fighter classes  can kill the encounter even quicker. </P> <P>The truth of the matter is, Furies really don't bring all that much more to a group than any other healing class........<STRONG><EM><U>IF</U>  </EM></STRONG>that Fury is there as main healer. If a Fury is there as secondary healer, then yeah, we bring offensive capability. Perhaps it's just the way I play my character depending on the role I'm playing in a group, but that's the way I see it.</P> <P>As for soloing ability.....I can see the argument Templars have about it. I can agree with it to an extent. Templars definitely need some loving from the devs in that area in some way. However......it does stand to reason that if a fight lasted as long for a soloing Fury as it does for a Templar, needless to say I believe that at the end, only the Templar would be standing. That extra Mitigation does do you guys some good in that area. It might seem a little thing for you, but looking at it from my perspective, there's been many occasions where I've wished for the mitigation of a plate wearer, even a chain wearer in situations where things took a bad turn while soloing. Simply put, I can't really take a hit worth crap since the CU. Like I said though, to you, it perhaps seems a little thing. </P> <P>As for Fury utility.......I'm well aware that we have some pretty nice buffs that we bring to a group. I'm not going to go into that however, since the main point most of the disgruntled Templars have brought up has to do with soloing. As I've stated above, in group situations, a Fury can be replaced with any other healer class with very little, if any, impact to the performance of the group (this assumes both healers are of the same skill in handling themselves in groups)</P> <P>Edit: Clarification of a couple areas</P><p>Message Edited by Viktorr on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 AM</span>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Edyil wrote:<div></div> <p>You people spend way too much time in your neighbors sand box.  Worry about your own class and stop the inept and idiotic comparisons.</p> <p>My daily group is Monk (Me), Warden, (GF sitting next to me), Warlock (RL best friend), Templar (his GF sitting next to him).</p> <p>The truth of the matter is, compared to me, the warden and the templar totally suck at damage.  Their contribution is visiable but nothing to speak.  Another truth of the matter is that the Warlock makes my damage look like a pillow fight and he makes the damage the Warden and Templar do combined to be all but meaningless.  Working as intended?  You bet your complaing [Removed for Content] it is.  And we are all very happy with it.</p> <p>Now, if you want to talk about the ability to solo, the Templars need a buff of some sort for solo melee.  Sort of like the EQ1 Yaulp.  It would work because in a group they would be focusing on healing and reduce the value of Yaulp.  But solo they could significally increase their <strong>damage</strong> (Stop saying DPS.  The term is meaningless when discussing a healing class.  If you can't even get that straight then don't post) by casting a Reactive, then Yaulp and  then melee the target down.  Yaulp could be a 4s buff with a 6s recast, which would work nicely to get the next Reactive up before recasting Yaulp.</p> <p>Finally, nobody EVER said that all subclasses of a class will be equal.  They said they will be approximate.  Which they are.  The Warden and the Templar are very different.  Both are very very valuable.  Both are desired.  If you would stop doing direct comparisons and actually play your class, you might enjoy it (solo ability aside).  Just keep in mind that at the bottom tier, it will take a long time to solo anything down.  If you don't like that, then you have no choice but to change tiers, which means to re-roll.  Also keep in mind that you can spec your toon any way you want.  Say to hell with Wis and go for Int gear.  You WILL see a big difference in damage.  This path is totaly viable for a solo Templar.  If you want the best of both worlds, sorry.  None of us have that.</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Edyil on <span class="date_text">11-22-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:33 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Nope, Bull.  You spec for Int your dmg still sucks as a Templar.  Stop repeating that lie. And this isn't EQ1, get over it. </span><div></div>

[Caethre]

<P>NOTE: Reworded.</P> <P>Right now, my assessment of clerics/druids in EQII is that a Fury is stronger than a Warden, a Warden is a lot stronger than an Inquisitor, and an Inquisitor is stronger than a Templar. With equal healing, it is all down to the damage and utility. The difference between a Fury at the top and a Templar at the bottom is night and day. I play both classes, I know.</P> <P>Based on this, I personally would *never* invite a Templar to a normal group if I could get another healer class, and I'd take a druid over any other, and a Fury over a Warden. To take a Templar when you can get a Fury would be like taking a large XP penalty.</P> <P>Right now, this is not just a "minor" balance issue. The Templar class feels weak now, so much so, that it seems broken to me. It didn't used to feel this way.</P> <P>Felishanna [53 Templar] ... healer and feeling worthless for anything else.<BR>Annaelisa [42 Fury] ... equal healer to a Templar her level, but far more powerful overall.</P><p>Message Edited by Caethre on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 PM</span>

[Vikto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take it from someone who does know. Want the best of both worlds? Play a Fury. Want the weakest priest overall? Then choose a Templar. The others are in between. And the difference is power is staggeringly huge from top to bottom. This is not a debating point. it is an empirically observed fact.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play both classes. Knowing what I know, I would *never* invite a Templar to a <STRONG>normal</STRONG> group if I could get another healer class, and I'd take a druid over any other, and a Fury over a Warden. To take a Templar when you can get a Fury would be like taking a large XP penalty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No-one gets the best of both worlds? Wrong. If your friend chose a Fury to replace her Templar, your group would kill more, faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, this is not a minor balance issue. Equal healing combined with far lower DPS and lower useful utility, for groups where healing is only taking up some of the Templar's power, the Templar has no useful role compared to any other priest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Templar class is broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar] ... healer and worthless for anything else.</DIV> <DIV>Annaelisa [42 Fury] ... equal healer to a Templar her level, but 3X the damage and 2X as useful overall.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First off, saying the Fury is the best of both worlds is simply your opinion, not fact at all, and I know of Templars that I play with regularly that would certainly back that up, even after the Combat Update.</P> <P>You would never invite a Templar to a group if you had your choice of any other healing class? I'm sorry, but I sincerely cannot fathom why. Seriously, while I've never played a Templar, I do have plenty of experience playing a Fury. I cannot fault you for saying that taking a Templar over a Fury would be like taking an experience penalty, but I do strongly disagree about just how much that is really a factor. As I've stated in my above post, my DPS is hardly a factor in a group where I'm the main healer. Perhaps it's just the groups I'm in, we definitely like to look for challenging encounters so I tend to spend my time actually healing, not nuking. I would surmise that if the groups I run in fought easier opponents, I may have more time to throw in some DoTs and nukes. However, to me that would actually just be boring. I'd rather have the challenge of keeping people alive in a difficult encounter. Therefore, with that said, since my DPS isn't a factor in that situation, we don't really kill anything faster with me in the group. Like I said though, perhaps it's just the types of encounters we tend to do.</P> <P>I would like for you to take the time to consider something. Do you think that perhaps you find playing a Fury fits your play style more than a Templar does? I ask this question to give you something to think about, not to be rude or anything. Let's face it, from what I've seen and from talking to other Templars, they're really playing pretty much close to the same way they were before the revamp, so in all honesty, a Templar should be one of the few classes to not have to drastically change their play style from what it was before. </P> <P>Let me also add something else here. My last post I didn't go much into our utility spells, but in case you haven't perused the Fury forums and seen the posts about it, our buffs actually got nerfed, not improved (although since I've not gone to the Templar forums to check, it probably is the same way for you as well). They're not as powerful as they were before the revamp. As for our nuking power.......the only real upgrade we got was to our AE nuke. The rest are still pretty close to DPS to what they were before the revamp. The only difference is: DoTs do more damage per tick but over a shorter period of time, our DD does more damage per cast, but is on a recast timer which is double what it was before I think, perhaps longer even. Plus long cast timers........look, here's a link that can possibly shed some light on this issue. <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=8315" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=8315</A> There is a nice discussion regarding Fury DPS there. </P> <P>You also gotta realize we lost most of our procs too. Our lion form buff is basically useless now. If I had to make a choice to keep lion buff or throw a Vim buff on a caster, I'm most certainly dropping the lion for the other. You can look through the Fury forums, a lot of answers are there, and a lot of the hype about Furies will be proven to be just that, hype.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[bigmak20]

Kyanna, You'll see that at 60 Templar's are the relatively same as they are at 50 -- but Furies base healing increases a third (you get 2 more core heal ancient spells compared to Templar's zero) and your DPS also goes up (big AoE ancient spell) -- leaving Templar's very much at the bottom and Furies best healer.  And Furies best DPS'r.  And Furies arguably best utility. btw; it all comes round to posts I was making a while back about the current game design punishing classes that had specialties in the original design -- right now the most diverse classes are very powerful due to core abilites being equalized in archetypes.

[Vikto]

<DIV>Bigmak, our AE nuke is the only nuke that actually got any real increase in damage due to the fact that the casting time and recast timer weren't changed in the combat update. The other nuke had it's recast time increased by a substantial amount which means instead of nuking 3 - 4 times per fight with it, I usually nuke 1 or 2 times now. Our DoTs were increased in damage, but shortened in duration. Most of our procs pre-CU have been removed but that can be offset by the larger nuke of the AE a bit. In all honesty Bigmak.....I'm hardly parsing at 53 much higher than I was at 50 pre update. That will probably change at 55 when I get the AE nuke pet.....but that has a risk involved with it if you didn't know. From a post I saw regarding it's damage, yeah, it certainly does boost our DPS, however it's not an encounter-only AE. That means it's kinda situational. You can't use it in areas where there are non-KOS mobs wandering around. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for our healing, certainly we do get a boost post 50. However, the BitF spell cannot be cast on myself, only other people. So it doesn't do any good when I solo or am in danger in a group situation. Hibernation.......situational at best. Basically a fire-and-forget heal where the only time it does much good from what I understand is if your group is being AE'd a lot. Otherwise it's pretty much a wasted heal since there's no way to determine when best to use it in normal circumstances. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, I can certainly see that there are some issues with the Templar class that should be addressed. What I find hard to believe is that it's as game-breaking as some are trying to make it out to be. Templars are not useless and are still in demand, at least on my server. I guess it comes down to player perception.</DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>nope big our ancient spells arent  core healing spells.</P> <P>Furies arent the best healer def/healwise and we dont have the best utility but we do have the best dps of the priests against grouped mobs.</P> <P>Hibernation is situational so is ring of fire (aggro magnet like a [Removed for Content]) back into the fray ge's used in tight situations so thats nice but it isnt an extra heal if the tank is not in the orange Im not casting that spell then nor am i spamming bitf+small heal Id use my big heal in that situation.</P> <P>I dont believe any fury would mind seeing bitf being on the same timer as our smal direct heal.</P> <P>I think templars have better utility as in usefulness in combat than furies, the only problem I can see with templars are in the solo dept as was stated long ago even by yourself before you made a 180 and went back into your nerf fury mode.</P> <P>Furies dont add that much offensively other than doing the ocassional dmg themselves to a group we got nerfed in our group dps buffing (we buff int now and thats a nice plus tho how many times do you group with 4 mages in your standard group?) we used to be able to cast 5 dmg proc buffs per person in the group now we have 1 single target haste/dps proc buf 1 single target dmg shield and fae flames which is a group spell which only justifies the power use vs dmg if youre in a full group and everyones meleeing (btw furies are quite bad in power management).</P> <P>In the groups Im in Im lucky to get one of my ae's in as the warlock/ranger has killed the encounter before my recast/casting time is up and no they dont do that dps just cause im in that group lol.</P> <P>I have a conj alt he's lvl 34 now and he can solo much faster than I can (without downtime), classes werent going to be equal in soloing it has been said many times by the devs even before the cu offensive orientated classes have an edge while soloing and I think that was to be expected.</P> <P>Dont get me wrong Im all for a templar offensive stance/pet/dmg shield whatever as I can see soloing must suck. (more solo content means more suckiness for templar soloing sure can see that but how should the classes be balanced? raidbalance/groupbalance/solobalance soe has said they wouldnt balance around soloing as they have said some classes will have a considerable edge in that dept that leaves groupbalance and raidbalance and i dont think were that far off templars can rock in groups so can furies same goes for raids its situational but indeed thats just my opinion).</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viktorr wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, I can certainly see that there are some issues with the Templar class that should be addressed. What I find hard to believe is that it's as game-breaking as some are trying to make it out to be. Templars are not useless and are still in demand, at least on my server. I guess it comes down to player perception.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I couldn't agree more.  Greetings to Greylords from the Legion, by the by.  :smileyhappy:<BR>

[bigmak20]

Hmm.  Let me see. BiTF: approx 1400 pt heal if target < 50%; 1.5 sec cast; 6 sec recast Hibenation: approx 1300 pt heal TO ALL GROUP MEMEBERS; 10 sec delay. Not core healing spells?  It those aren't core healing spells then Templar's reactives aren't core healing spells.  lol The Furies are saying after they get these spells heal spells timers aren't an issue for them.  I agree with the Furies.  Templar's and other priests deserve the same.

[quetzaqotl]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:15 PM</span>

[bigmak20]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:15 PM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>-edited nm too easy- (but saying I only hurl insults is an insult and now im here hurtin' :smileysad: .... ah well ill get over it)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> But I would advise you to read before you go off and say we agree Big as we dont and prolly never will.</DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 PM</span>

[Vikto]

<DIV>Bigmak. As far as our core healing spells (which to me are known as our specialty spells), those would be our regens. BitF and Hibernation are certainly not regens. They're direct heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't use BitF unless the tank is below half health. That means things are probably not going as well as hoped. Also, if you weren't aware of it......I've most certainly drawn aggro after dropping a BitF if it's early enough in the fight. Guess what, now I'm getting pounded and BitF is useless to me as I can't cast it on myself......do you see the point I'm making here? If not then I give up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hibernation: once again I'll say it. This spell is situational at best. You won't see many Furies using this spell in any normal group setting. Therefore, to use this spell in any type of argument against Furies is kinda, well, stupid.</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote:<p>Now, the baseline's more even.  All priests can hit that baseline.  Templars still exceed it by quite a wide margin, but as some have pointed out (including myself), a great deal of our healing ability is wasted in the average situation now. </p><div></div><hr></blockquote>This has already been proven wrong both mathematically and with parsing. Still you reapeat it like you never have heard of anything else. Prove you statement or you will be called a liar.</span><div></div>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Edyil wrote:<div></div> <p>You people spend way too much time in your neighbors sand box.  Worry about your own class and stop the inept and idiotic comparisons.</p> <p>My daily group is Monk (Me), Warden, (GF sitting next to me), Warlock (RL best friend), Templar (his GF sitting next to him).</p> <p>The truth of the matter is, compared to me, the warden and the templar totally suck at damage.  Their contribution is visiable but nothing to speak.  Another truth of the matter is that the Warlock makes my damage look like a pillow fight and he makes the damage the Warden and Templar do combined to be all but meaningless.  Working as intended?  You bet your complaing [Removed for Content] it is.  And we are all very happy with it.</p><hr></blockquote>Hmm, the warlock normally does over 10x the damage a templar does. So have you ever actually parsed the damage? A warlock can do 3 to 5x the damage that warden and templar can do combined. </span><div></div>

[Generi]

<P>Hi all,</P> <P>My suggestion will be just to change Back into the Frey into a group friend spell instead of a spell that can be casted out of group and across raid groups (which I never think was inteded).  This will take away <FONT color=#ff99cc>NONE</FONT> of the Fury's ability to sustain the experience grp while balancing the heal classes during raid (only point I see as being greatly unbalanced with Fury having an extra direct heal, and a VERY effective one).</P> <DIV>As for the rest, I'll leave it to the collective wisdom of the people on this forum.</DIV>

[Helmarf]

What is this, and what the h... are you doing? Think you all have to go back to main post and take a look again.  This starting to turn out to be a who knows the best thread and soon here will be shadowknights and wizard complaining to, bah.

[Eeluu]

I say give the Temp's some DPS, hell it's nearly xmas! <div></div>

[Kilaelya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eeluu wrote:<BR>I say give the Temp's some DPS, hell it's nearly xmas!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I second that!

[schrammy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kilaelya wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eeluu wrote:<BR>I say give the Temp's some DPS, hell it's nearly xmas!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I second that! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You're both right.</P> <P>And in return give the casters an equal increase in healing power and let them wear plate<BR></P>

[Digg]

All I can say is, I love soloing, I'm a loner, I loved the way I could solo with my Templar.  Now its gone, I dont enjoy the game anywhere near as much any more.

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>schrammy wrote: <p>You're both right.</p> <p>And in return give the casters an equal increase in healing power and let them wear plate</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes, lets increase templar DPS by 300% and caster healing by 300% also. Templars are casters <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><span></span> And only summoners have anything to add that 300%, you see 300% added to nothing is still nothing. <span>:smileytongue:</span><span></span> </span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR> <DIV>OOC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where is the Templar class to go now, with EQUAL HEALING and almost nothing else?<BR>================================================== =============</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, nothing else was significantly changed. This means that Templar nukes still have a base damage approximately <FONT color=#ffff00>one-third that of Furies.</FONT> It means Templars still have no vitally useful utility, like root, SoW, Snare, Evac, Slow, Group Invis ... and the list goes on ... all abilities available to various of the other priest classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Templar class needs some attention now. SOE, you cannot leave us as EQUAL HEALERS but at the same time, <FONT color=#ffff00>ONE-THIRD contributors in terms of damage</FONT> and utility - noone will invite us to groups, and we cannot solo effectively compared to those other healing classes. The so-called 'healing utility' lines are too weak and too random (as well as requiring no skill, and hence are boring) to be useful outside very difficult content and outside raids - for small group and soloing situations, they are basically useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are countless suggestions on the Templar board on how this might be addressed. Nerfing other classes is not the answer either, some of them are fun, what is needed is a review of what you actually want from the Templar class, and to tell us where you see us as heading. Because right now, no-one in their right mind who has knowledge of the other healing classes, would choose a Templar as a duo partner or a healer in a group of 3 or 4, doing normal things, because other healers are just as good at healing (in the sense, they can keep the group alive) AND they can offer much more with their spare power. Parses of ~90dps for tier6 Templars are comparing to ~350+ dps for say teir6 Furies, these are appearing all over these forums, yet the healing is effectively equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar]<BR>Annaelisa [33 Fury]<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1/3rd the damage contribution?  Possible I guess in short fights, but once effeciency comes into play Templars aren't 1/3rd as efficient.  Pulled from another post, all spells are at the same level with the same INT.  The number posted is effeciency.</P> <P><STRONG>Archetype Spell Line</STRONG></P> <DIV>Fury: <FONT color=#3300ff>Killing Swarm</FONT>: 6.17-7.53<BR>Warden: Winter's Sting: 4.93-6.03</DIV> <DIV>Mystic: Wrath of the Grey: 4.22-5.01</DIV> <DIV>Defiler: Ruinous Anathema: 4.22-5.01</DIV> <DIV>Templar: Judging Smite: 4.22-5.01</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor: Ruthless Invocation: 4.22-5.01<BR><BR><STRONG>Class Spell Line</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Fury: Waterspout: 6.68-8.16<BR>Warden: Hoarfrost: 5.35-6.55</DIV> <DIV>Mystic: <FONT color=#3300ff>Fevered Pox</FONT>: 7.58</DIV> <DIV>Defiler: <FONT color=#3300ff>Infestation:</FONT> 10.59</DIV> <DIV>Templar: Consecrated Strike: 4.72-5.78</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor: <FONT color=#3300ff>Scourge</FONT>: 7.09-8.7</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Subclass Spell Line</STRONG><BR>Fury: Bolt of Storms: 4.38-7.31<BR>Warden: Wintry Cold: 7.35-9<BR>Mystic: Arctic Flames: 6.13-7.47</DIV> <DIV>Defiler: Fulginous Tendril: 5.96-7.26</DIV> <DIV>Templar: Warring Conviction: 5.24-6.41</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor: Purifying Flames: 5.96-7.26</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>AE</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Fury: Starnova: 3.44-4.21</DIV> <DIV>Warden: Winds of Arctic Cold: 4.3-5.07<BR>Mystic: Wrath of the Ancients: 3.13<BR>Defiler: Caliginous Corruption: (Need a defiler to tell me the Duration on this line of DoT before i can calculate it! Sorry!)<BR>Templar: Blaze of Faith: 2.87<BR>Inquisitor: Litany of Agony: 2.58-3.15</DIV></DIV> <P>As you can see, with the exception of the Archetype spell line, there is at least one priest class with more damage efficiency in any particular spell line than the Fury.  Templars are actually @ 2/3 (and in the case of Warring Conviction, about on par with) that of Furies, <STRONG>and I agree Templars need a little boost in DPS</STRONG>... But 1/3 is fabrication that comes from parses that everyone agrees can vary greatly based on circumstances.<BR></P> <P>Here's the threads I copied from, both have much more info and should be required reading before trying to gauge the damage differences between the priest classes: <P>Single Target: <A target=_blank href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4644#M4644">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4644#M4644</A></P> <P>AE: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4675#M4675" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4675#M4675</A></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class=date_text>11-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:58 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote:<div></div> <div></div><p>As you can see, with the exception of the Archetype spell line, there is at least one priest class with more damage efficiency than the Fury.  Templars are actually @ 2/3 (and in the case of Warring Conviction, about on par with) that of Furies, and I'm all for giving them a little boost in DPS... But 1/3 is fabrication that comes from parses that everyone agrees can vary greatly based on circumstances.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>What all classes actually need is burst dps. Most classes already have it, but templars are the ones who have neither burst nor overall dps. Burst dps is needed in soloing, you can wait for recasts while looking for another target. Templars need to wait for recasts while fighting which makes their dps low and constant. Templars do the same dps in 10 second fights and in 10 min fights. Furies do about 3 times the dps with short fight than with long fight and even in long fight they will do nearly twice the dps a templar does. This really means that furies can do 5 to 6 times more burst dps than templars, which means also much faster soloing when fighting non-heroics. Since if all you need to do to kill an opponent is to use each skill once, you will kill the opponent as fast as your cast times allow. Templars have to make several cycles of each of the 3 'nukes' to kill something. This is why I like my monk in soloing, 10+ damage skills to spam and very short use times (long reuse though, 15s to 30s) mean that I'll kill a solo mob very fast. But that also means that while my burst dps can be very high, long term dps is not. So in this light, templar DPS needs to be balanced by giving it a 30% raise (so that the base spells do same damage as any other priests basic nukes) and their damage, power usage and recast time need to be doubled after that.</span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>Timaarit wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>What all classes actually need is burst dps. Most classes already have it, but templars are the ones who have neither burst nor overall dps. Burst dps is needed in soloing, you can wait for recasts while looking for another target. Templars need to wait for recasts while fighting which makes their dps low and constant. Templars do the same dps in 10 second fights and in 10 min fights. Furies do about 3 times the dps with short fight than with long fight and even in long fight they will do nearly twice the dps a templar does. This really means that furies can do 5 to 6 times more burst dps than templars, which means also much faster soloing when fighting non-heroics. Since if all you need to do to kill an opponent is to use each skill once, you will kill the opponent as fast as your cast times allow. Templars have to make several cycles of each of the 3 'nukes' to kill something. This is why I like my monk in soloing, 10+ damage skills to spam and very short use times (long reuse though, 15s to 30s) mean that I'll kill a solo mob very fast. But that also means that while my burst dps can be very high, long term dps is not.<BR><BR>So in this light, templar DPS needs to be balanced by giving it a 30% raise (so that the base spells do same damage as any other priests basic nukes) and their damage, power usage and recast time need to be doubled after that.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree with that, and that's pretty much what I see when I duo with the guild Templar.  30% more needed to balance is far more accurate I think than 60% (what would be needed if the difference was really 1/3 of Fury ability).</DIV>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote: <div>I agree with that, and that's pretty much what I see when I duo with the guild Templar.  30% more needed to balance is far more accurate I think than 60% (what would be needed if the difference was really 1/3 of Fury ability).</div><hr></blockquote>Well the difference in overall DPS is over 60% but as the rest comes from utility damage and extra intelligence from utility, it doesn't bother me. The thing that does bother me is the weakness of templar nukes which makes soloing very boring compared to other classes. Giving templar spells a 2,6x damage boost and maybe even 2,6x more power usage in combination of making recasts twice as long as they are now would in fact be perfect when it comes to soloing. It would give us 30% more long term dps but also much more burst dps. We would still be worse in dps than furies, but at least we could solo. And I dont even see anything unbalancing in this.</span><div></div>

[kingsnipe]

When the priest class can solo faster and higher lev mobs than the mage class then that would be unbalanced. As it stand now by lev 60 most mage class can solo heroic mobs 10 to 15 levels higher than priests. Now lets just talk about exp speed. Most of mage class say when they solo they do about as well as when in group. I found as  fury that when I got in a group I got exp 4 to 5 times faster then when solo. MY point to this is that trully annoys me when I see mages flame when priests ask for more dps.  One was saying if we do then they should get more healing. LOL know what they do not need healing when they solo from the fact they use super cheat of root or a pet and seldom in a fight get hit. Even if priests got better nukes and faster recasts it not help that much at all. Why? Well since we have to tank when we solo with defense that little better than worse in game, which means what happens in a fight is........  I nuke the mob first I get hit I try healing if I can since get stunned alot then finally I get heal off so now time to nuke again. No wait interuped, grrr interupted once more, rats no time have to heal oh that is interupted as well. As any priest can tell you even if our main nuke had faster recast delay instead of the 15 secs now, chances are it still might take 30 40 secs plus b4 we are able to blast off another. Fact is in many fights I never get off a nuke I have to rely on my damage shield and or my ring of fire to kill as I am too busy trying to heal around being interupted to stay alive. So unless you play a templar who is a masochist for abuse when soloing stop posting on something that does not concern you. But then, most flammers  are just prepubescent adolescents who are afraid in real life of their own shadows and all we can hope for is one day they will grow up. Fix Templars ........ <div></div>

[Pucswift]

<P>whats the big fuss i mean geez so we have alittle more dps as furies.. but you get to wear much bigger armor and weapons..</P> <P>that not enough? you have much higher hitpoints better mit.   sounds balanced to me...</P> <P> </P>

[Timaarit]

**REMOVED DUE TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT**<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:32 PM</span>

[steelblueangel]

<DIV>3TAN wrote: <P>"whats the big fuss i mean geez so we have alittle more dps as furies.. but you get to wear much bigger armor and weapons..</P> <P>that not enough? you have much higher hitpoints better mit.   sounds balanced to me..."</P> <P>Steelblueangel responds to 3TAN , no tan it is not enough. The ability to wear plate armor is only a costume when the abilitys do not allow you to play the game without a handicap. I'm speaking from experience. I have a level 52 Inquisitor, she looks good in her armor and thats about as good as it gets for the inquisitor and templar classes. We get all dress up in our plate armor and have no where to go. </P> <P>I would be happy with having the interruptions, stuns, and fizzles removed from my toon without eq adding anything else. It still would take longer than most toons to kill things solo but at least I would be able to cast spells and kill something. As it is with all of the interruptions, stuns, and fizzles I run more than I fight because I cant cast. Not being able to cast quickly reduces my life and I cant cast a heal on myself so I run more than I fight. </P> <P>Removing the interruptions, stuns and fizzles from the inquisitor and templar classes would be wonderful and I would be greatful and happy with just that. </P> <P>See u all in the game , safe journey to you all.</P></DIV>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> steelblueangel wrote:<BR> <DIV>3TAN wrote: <P>"whats the big fuss i mean geez so we have alittle more dps as furies.. but you get to wear much bigger armor and weapons..</P> <P>that not enough? you have much higher hitpoints better mit.   sounds balanced to me..."</P> <P>Steelblueangel responds to 3TAN , no tan it is not enough. The ability to wear plate armor is only a costume when the abilitys do not allow you to play the game without a handicap. I'm speaking from experience. I have a level 52 Inquisitor, she looks good in her armor and thats about as good as it gets for the inquisitor and templar classes. We get all dress up in our plate armor and have no where to go. </P> <P>I would be happy with having the interruptions, stuns, and fizzles removed from my toon without eq adding anything else. It still would take longer than most toons to kill things solo but at least I would be able to cast spells and kill something. As it is with all of the interruptions, stuns, and fizzles I run more than I fight because I cant cast. Not being able to cast quickly reduces my life and I cant cast a heal on myself so I run more than I fight. </P> <P>Removing the interruptions, stuns and fizzles from the inquisitor and templar classes would be wonderful and I would be greatful and happy with just that. </P> <P>See u all in the game , safe journey to you all.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Interrupts, stuns, and fizzles don't just affect the Templar and Inquisitor classes....  Here's some snippet's from the infamous LU13 patch notes...</P> <P><STRONG>Avoidance:</STRONG></P> <LI>Your likelihood of avoiding an attack is now based on two primary factors: the con color of the attacker and the type of armor you are wearing. The heavier your armor, the lower your chances of avoiding an attack. <LI>The more grey your target is to you, the greater your chance to avoid attacks and mitigate damage from that opponent; your chance to hit and damage the target also increases. <LI>Conversely, the more red your target is to you, the less your chance to avoid attacks and mitigate damage from that opponent; your chance to hit and damage the target also decreases. </LI> <P><STRONG>Mitigation:</STRONG></P> <LI>The base mitigation values of armor against an opponent of your level have been adjusted as follows: Heavy (32%), Medium (26%), Light (20%), Very Light (10%). <LI>Mitigation scales up or down based on the con color of your attacker. That is, you mitigate progressively more damage of blue, green, and grey opponents, and progressively less against yellow, orange, and red opponents. </LI> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Interrupts:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <LI>Your chance to be interrupted while casting is now determined by your <FONT color=#ffff00>Focus skill</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00>and the amount of damage being done by your attacker</FONT>. </LI></DIV> <P>Looking at those notes, <EM>theoretically </EM>I believe it's supposed to go like this:</P> <P>Avoidance types (light armor wearers) get hit less often, but when they do they get hit for more damage, meaning a greater chance of being interrupted when hit.</P> <P>Mitigation types (heavy armor wearers) get hit more often, but get hit for less, meaning a lesser chance than light types of getting interrupted when actually hit.</P> <P>In some way, this is supposed to be balanced... You get hit more often for less damage, but should get interrupted about the same as me who gets hit less often for more damage.</P> <P><EM>That said</EM>, I <STRONG>do believe</STRONG> that interrupts are borked across the board for all priests.  I fought a group of three blues, no arrows... I got one spell off (the one I opened with) and then was summarily beaten into the dirt because I could not get off even one more spell for the duration of the fight.  All my opponents were still in the green when I fell. </P> <P>From what I'm reading from plate wearers, it appears they have the same issue - far too frequent interrupts.  It seems to me that the focus skill (which determines whether or not you get interrupted when a 'sizable' hit occurs for your armor type - if I understand it correctly) either is underpowered in effectiveness, or not working at all.</P><p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class=date_text>11-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:22 AM</span>

[Xanthrus]

<DIV>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV><EM>That said</EM>, I <STRONG>do believe</STRONG> that interrupts are borked across the board for all priests.  I fought a group of three blues, no arrows... I got one spell off (the one I opened with) and then was summarily beaten into the dirt because I could not get off even one more spell for the duration of the fight.  All my opponents were still in the green when I fell. </DIV> <DIV>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really haven't advanced my Templar alt character enough yet to make a fully direct comparison, but I can relay my experience with my Defiler main. And, I'll say right up front that even the Defiler is still only in the upper low levels (lvl 25). That said, I feel that I can solo reasonably well with the Defiler. Warding spells are your friend. Sure, I die occasionally in Nek, but I can also take on multiple opponents at or slightly above my level. Interrupts are frequently a problem though. They are, in fact, the usual reason I end up dying. Even when still under a functioning ward. However, if I play the character's strengths and am not interrupted at an unreasonable rate, I fare pretty well. My soon-to-be Templar is considerably lower level (13) and.....challenging. He's currently still only able to wear light armors and has NO warding spells whatsoever. I have to be cautious even in Oakmist Forest. If any single named in the zone (Grubdigger, the spider queen, etc.) aggros on me, I'm either fleetfooted or toast. Even with the standard, run-of-the-mill critters aggro on me, I'd better have a couple of levels on them, especially if there's multiple aggros. For example, if I get into it with bears in Oakmist I can take one or two, but I'm powerdrained by the end of the fight. Now, I don't regret my character choice at all. I chose him mainly for RP reasons (he's a dwarf working toward Armorsmith TS, of COURSE he should be wearing heavy armors) but there is notably more challenge playing him than playing my Defiler. And yeah, they both get interrupted quite frequently.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Xanthrus on <span class=date_text>11-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:42 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote>Bad_Mojo wrote:<div></div> <div></div><div><strong>Interrupts:</strong></div> <div><strong></strong> </div> <div> <li>Your chance to be interrupted while casting is now determined by your <font color="#ffff00">Focus skill</font> <font color="#ffff00">and the amount of damage being done by your attacker</font>. </li></div><hr></blockquote>Hmm, if this is true, then we need to start /bugging it, clearly it is not working as intended. Smaller amount of damage does at the moment not mean less chance of an interrupt.</span><div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viktorr wrote:<BR> <DIV>Bigmak, our AE nuke is the only nuke that actually got any real increase in damage due to the fact that the casting time and recast timer weren't changed in the combat update. The other nuke had it's recast time increased by a substantial amount which means instead of nuking 3 - 4 times per fight with it, I usually nuke 1 or 2 times now. Our DoTs were increased in damage, but shortened in duration. Most of our procs pre-CU have been removed but that can be offset by the larger nuke of the AE a bit. In all honesty Bigmak.....I'm hardly parsing at 53 much higher than I was at 50 pre update. That will probably change at 55 when I get the AE nuke pet.....but that has a risk involved with it if you didn't know. From a post I saw regarding it's damage, yeah, it certainly does boost our DPS, however it's not an encounter-only AE. That means it's kinda situational. You can't use it in areas where there are non-KOS mobs wandering around. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for our healing, certainly we do get a boost post 50. However, the BitF spell cannot be cast on myself, only other people. So it doesn't do any good when I solo or am in danger in a group situation. Hibernation.......situational at best. Basically a fire-and-forget heal where the only time it does much good from what I understand is if your group is being AE'd a lot. Otherwise it's pretty much a wasted heal since there's no way to determine when best to use it in normal circumstances. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, I can certainly see that there are some issues with the Templar class that should be addressed. What I find hard to believe is that it's as game-breaking as some are trying to make it out to be. Templars are not useless and are still in demand, at least on my server. I guess it comes down to player perception.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OUr DOTS were increased in damage but shortened in duration huh. Notice what he doesnt tell you. The recast for said dots was also shortened to correspond.

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE>Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>Interrupts:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <LI>Your chance to be interrupted while casting is now determined by your <FONT color=#ffff00>Focus skill</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00>and the amount of damage being done by your attacker</FONT>. </LI></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm, if this is true, then we need to start /bugging it, clearly it is not working as intended. Smaller amount of damage does at the moment not mean less chance of an interrupt.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I spent a little over two hours last night searching these forums as well as third party sites (for interviews and such) and I could find nothing to the contrary, so I believe this statement still stands as far as SOE is concerned.  I agree, time to start /bugging it I think.

[Vikto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viktorr wrote:<BR> <DIV>Bigmak, our AE nuke is the only nuke that actually got any real increase in damage due to the fact that the casting time and recast timer weren't changed in the combat update. The other nuke had it's recast time increased by a substantial amount which means instead of nuking 3 - 4 times per fight with it, I usually nuke 1 or 2 times now. Our DoTs were increased in damage, but shortened in duration. Most of our procs pre-CU have been removed but that can be offset by the larger nuke of the AE a bit. In all honesty Bigmak.....I'm hardly parsing at 53 much higher than I was at 50 pre update. That will probably change at 55 when I get the AE nuke pet.....but that has a risk involved with it if you didn't know. From a post I saw regarding it's damage, yeah, it certainly does boost our DPS, however it's not an encounter-only AE. That means it's kinda situational. You can't use it in areas where there are non-KOS mobs wandering around. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for our healing, certainly we do get a boost post 50. However, the BitF spell cannot be cast on myself, only other people. So it doesn't do any good when I solo or am in danger in a group situation. Hibernation.......situational at best. Basically a fire-and-forget heal where the only time it does much good from what I understand is if your group is being AE'd a lot. Otherwise it's pretty much a wasted heal since there's no way to determine when best to use it in normal circumstances. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, I can certainly see that there are some issues with the Templar class that should be addressed. What I find hard to believe is that it's as game-breaking as some are trying to make it out to be. Templars are not useless and are still in demand, at least on my server. I guess it comes down to player perception.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OUr DOTS were increased in damage but shortened in duration huh. Notice what he doesnt tell you. The recast for said dots was also shortened to correspond. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Do you actually see any reason to bring that up when you consider that the cast / recast on <STRONG><U>DoTs</U></STRONG> has little bearing in the discussion anyways? I mean let's get real here, the Swarm line is the only line that got any real upgrade in cast time, which makes it hard to interrupt (not impossible, I've been interrupted casting those quite a number of times still). As for recast time, I don't even see why you bring that up anyways. Before CU, we could recast our DoTs way before they ran out. Now? By the time the DoT is almost finished on the mob is when you are able to recast that DoT. In a real soloing / grouping situation, with how fast those DoTs expire anyways, a lot of the time you're gonna be too busy to reapply that DoT right away, therefore actually losing DPS.</P> <P>I honestly don't see how you can bring that up. It's not like our DoTs were slow casting before, because they weren't. Go find something else to nit-pick</P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viktorr wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viktorr wrote:<BR> <DIV>Bigmak, our AE nuke is the only nuke that actually got any real increase in damage due to the fact that the casting time and recast timer weren't changed in the combat update. The other nuke had it's recast time increased by a substantial amount which means instead of nuking 3 - 4 times per fight with it, I usually nuke 1 or 2 times now. Our DoTs were increased in damage, but shortened in duration. Most of our procs pre-CU have been removed but that can be offset by the larger nuke of the AE a bit. In all honesty Bigmak.....I'm hardly parsing at 53 much higher than I was at 50 pre update. That will probably change at 55 when I get the AE nuke pet.....but that has a risk involved with it if you didn't know. From a post I saw regarding it's damage, yeah, it certainly does boost our DPS, however it's not an encounter-only AE. That means it's kinda situational. You can't use it in areas where there are non-KOS mobs wandering around. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for our healing, certainly we do get a boost post 50. However, the BitF spell cannot be cast on myself, only other people. So it doesn't do any good when I solo or am in danger in a group situation. Hibernation.......situational at best. Basically a fire-and-forget heal where the only time it does much good from what I understand is if your group is being AE'd a lot. Otherwise it's pretty much a wasted heal since there's no way to determine when best to use it in normal circumstances. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, I can certainly see that there are some issues with the Templar class that should be addressed. What I find hard to believe is that it's as game-breaking as some are trying to make it out to be. Templars are not useless and are still in demand, at least on my server. I guess it comes down to player perception.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OUr DOTS were increased in damage but shortened in duration huh. Notice what he doesnt tell you. The recast for said dots was also shortened to correspond. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Do you actually see any reason to bring that up when you consider that the cast / recast on <STRONG><U>DoTs</U></STRONG> has little bearing in the discussion anyways? I mean let's get real here, the Swarm line is the only line that got any real upgrade in cast time, which makes it hard to interrupt (not impossible, I've been interrupted casting those quite a number of times still). As for recast time, I don't even see why you bring that up anyways. Before CU, we could recast our DoTs way before they ran out. Now? By the time the DoT is almost finished on the mob is when you are able to recast that DoT. In a real soloing / grouping situation, with how fast those DoTs expire anyways, a lot of the time you're gonna be too busy to reapply that DoT right away, therefore actually losing DPS.</P> <P>I honestly don't see how you can bring that up. It's not like our DoTs were slow casting before, because they weren't. Go find something else to nit-pick</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The point is in case you did not catch it, is the damage was increased per tick but with less ticks, with a quicker recast you are able to cast it more, which = more damage in say a half minute, not that Fury battles last that long. I know. My now 28 Fury has bigger nukes than my 57 Templar. Add to that strong fast Dots, and the damage shield that hits everybody in the encounter when you get hit by any and the orange numbers fly. </P> <P>Fact of the matter is is that right now my Fury at 28 does more damage including H.O.s than my Templar can dream to do, and he is almost 30 levels under my Templar. and we are in the same Damage Tier as per SoE. But then if you ask a Fury, we are balanced. [Removed for Content].</P>

[Vikto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viktorr wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viktorr wrote:<BR> <DIV>Bigmak, our AE nuke is the only nuke that actually got any real increase in damage due to the fact that the casting time and recast timer weren't changed in the combat update. The other nuke had it's recast time increased by a substantial amount which means instead of nuking 3 - 4 times per fight with it, I usually nuke 1 or 2 times now. Our DoTs were increased in damage, but shortened in duration. Most of our procs pre-CU have been removed but that can be offset by the larger nuke of the AE a bit. In all honesty Bigmak.....I'm hardly parsing at 53 much higher than I was at 50 pre update. That will probably change at 55 when I get the AE nuke pet.....but that has a risk involved with it if you didn't know. From a post I saw regarding it's damage, yeah, it certainly does boost our DPS, however it's not an encounter-only AE. That means it's kinda situational. You can't use it in areas where there are non-KOS mobs wandering around. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for our healing, certainly we do get a boost post 50. However, the BitF spell cannot be cast on myself, only other people. So it doesn't do any good when I solo or am in danger in a group situation. Hibernation.......situational at best. Basically a fire-and-forget heal where the only time it does much good from what I understand is if your group is being AE'd a lot. Otherwise it's pretty much a wasted heal since there's no way to determine when best to use it in normal circumstances. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, I can certainly see that there are some issues with the Templar class that should be addressed. What I find hard to believe is that it's as game-breaking as some are trying to make it out to be. Templars are not useless and are still in demand, at least on my server. I guess it comes down to player perception.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OUr DOTS were increased in damage but shortened in duration huh. Notice what he doesnt tell you. The recast for said dots was also shortened to correspond. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Do you actually see any reason to bring that up when you consider that the cast / recast on <STRONG><U>DoTs</U></STRONG> has little bearing in the discussion anyways? I mean let's get real here, the Swarm line is the only line that got any real upgrade in cast time, which makes it hard to interrupt (not impossible, I've been interrupted casting those quite a number of times still). As for recast time, I don't even see why you bring that up anyways. Before CU, we could recast our DoTs way before they ran out. Now? By the time the DoT is almost finished on the mob is when you are able to recast that DoT. In a real soloing / grouping situation, with how fast those DoTs expire anyways, a lot of the time you're gonna be too busy to reapply that DoT right away, therefore actually losing DPS.</P> <P>I honestly don't see how you can bring that up. It's not like our DoTs were slow casting before, because they weren't. Go find something else to nit-pick</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The point is in case you did not catch it, is the damage was increased per tick but with less ticks, with a quicker recast you are able to cast it more, which = more damage in say a half minute, not that Fury battles last that long. I know. My now 28 Fury has bigger nukes than my 57 Templar. Add to that strong fast Dots, and the damage shield that hits everybody in the encounter when you get hit by any and the orange numbers fly. </P> <P>Fact of the matter is is that right now my Fury at 28 does more damage including H.O.s than my Templar can dream to do, and he is almost 30 levels under my Templar. and we are in the same Damage Tier as per SoE. But then if you ask a Fury, we are balanced. [Removed for Content].</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm wondering where in any part of my responses I made any indication that Furies never used out-damage Templars? We did before, and we do now. Also, I never said anything about Templars being fine as they are. However, let me fill you in on something since your Fury is only 28 and you don't have the experience playing one over a long period of time. The changes done to DoTs in the Combat Update aren't all that spectacular as you're making them out to be. Yes, the damage was increased. Yes, the casting time was decreased. However....the DoTs last half as long as they used to, and they certainly weren't doubled in damage. Re-read my reply to you, you'll see that only in ideal situations can you make maximum effect from the changes made to DoTs. Tell me, how often do you play in an ideal situation?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, Furies outdamage Templars. My Fury could outdamage a higher level Templar even before the Combat Update. All you are crying about is things that people who have regularly played a Fury already know, and have known for a long time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And since you want to 'point out what soandso failed to say', let me point out to you that you failed to comment that Furies lost just about all of their damage procs in the Combat Update. Those procs before the CU did account for a not-so-insignificant amount of my DPS. Like I've said before, and like most other Furies have commented about, the only significant boost to our DPS came from our AE nuke line. The rest have just been juggled around with on casting times, recast times and damage to where they do pretty much the same amount of damage, but configured for Burst damage, not sustained. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My final comment in this thread will be this, and it's something I've already said earlier. I do believe Templars need some tweaks from the Devs to help them out. I honestly think that perhaps they got a little shafted in the CU. However, I certainly do not think Templars are completely broken, and are still a viable class to play. My opinion is that perhaps it's the need to change one's play style from what they're used to that causes most of the issues. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Viktorr wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, Furies outdamage Templars. My Fury could outdamage a higher level Templar even before the Combat Update. All you are crying about is things that people who have regularly played a Fury already know, and have known for a long time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My final comment in this thread will be this, and it's something I've already said earlier. I do believe Templars need some tweaks from the Devs to help them out. I honestly think that perhaps they got a little shafted in the CU. However, I certainly do not think Templars are completely broken, and are still a viable class to play. My opinion is that perhaps it's the need to change one's play style from what they're used to that causes most of the issues. </DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Furies did outdamage Templars before the CU, and by a lot, and that is true now as well. However, before the CU, Furies could not heal anywhere close to as well as Templars. This meant that, before the LU13, when a normal XP group was looking for one extra person, to play their healer, there was a trade-off between the two classes, and they may choose one or the other depending on what they needed for whatever they were facing, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, now, after LU15 especially, the group should take the Fury, not 60% or 80%, but 100% of the time, assuming all other factors equal (eg comparing two characters of similar gear who are both not friends, etc), and assuming the person making the choice has a clue about the classes. If I were playing any non-healer class looking for a healer, this is my instant judgement, and I would know, since I play both classes. Both classes give the normal group far more healing than it ever needs, but the Fury brings far more power and versatility with all that unused extra power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Changing playstyle, as you so simplistically put it, is not an option for Templars like it is for Furies. Templars do not have that "DPS" string on their bow, so to speak, indeed, Templars are one trick ponies, where that same trick is now available to five other classes on an equal basis. This can be exemplified most easily like this - can you imagine two Furies in the same group, say in a trio with a paladin, XP hunting? Yep, its fun, I've done it. Now, how about a paladin and two templars? Think about that for a moment. Imagine the kill rate. Been there done that, playing a Fury. Yes that is an extreme case, but you get my general point, Im sure - if Furies can heal like Templars (and they can, and SoE intend them to be able to), then Templars need to be able to contribute to normal groups in other ways than healing THAT IS ACTUALLY OF VALUE to the XP rate of that group, or the Templar will forever be (a) LFG or (b) <EM>relatively</EM> ineffective anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And this is why so many Templars are now playing other healers, especially Furies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar]</DIV> <DIV>Annaelisa [46 Fury]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV>So caeth at your lvl, lvl 46 your fury heals just as good as your templar?</DIV> <DIV>And you make it sound that pre cu all was balanced as furies did more dmg than templars but we got to heal for less?</DIV> <DIV>SO you were ok with how the cards were then eh?</DIV> <DIV>People picking up furies is just because furies are now considered the fun class we do dmg and heal, but really do you know how mystics/defilers/inqs/wardens are balanced against your templar? (yeah yeah I hear the "roll another healer yourself" comming, lol I wont (have enough alts as it is), but you must agree all this focus on furies is a bit one sided dont you think?).</DIV> <DIV>All this focus on furies is a bit strange as noone ever mentioned another healing class vs templars its even more strange that noone tried to compare themselves to the other cleric inquisitors (at least not on these boards).</DIV> <DIV>Saying your lvl 46 fury heals just as good as a templar could, well I dont believe that if you go and search for easy content yes a furies'heals at that lvl will suffice, but clearly at that lvl fury healing is in the lowest tier of any healer around. </DIV><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:51 AM</span>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>quetzaqotl wrote:<div>All this focus on furies is a bit strange as noone ever mentioned another healing class vs templars its even more strange that noone tried to compare themselves to the other cleric inquisitors (at least not on these boards).</div><hr></blockquote>You have been said this many times over. Furies are taken in comparison because furies have at least equal healing compared to any other healing class, if not even better, (fact proven over and over) among priests and by far the best DPS (also fact proven over and over again). So if anyone ever ask what healer is the best, the answer is a fury. If you think otherwise, please present the facts to support it.</span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote: <DIV>All this focus on furies is a bit strange as noone ever mentioned another healing class vs templars its even more strange that noone tried to compare themselves to the other cleric inquisitors (at least not on these boards).</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You have been said this many times over. Furies are taken in comparison because furies have at least equal healing compared to any other healing class, if not even better, (fact proven over and over) among priests and by far the best DPS (also fact proven over and over again).<BR><BR>So if anyone ever ask what healer is the best, the answer is a fury.<BR><BR>If you think otherwise, please present the facts to support it.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You are a little off.  Warden's still out heal Furies, and against single targets are widely regarded as outdamaging Furies.

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote:You are a little off.  Warden's still out heal Furies, and against single targets are widely regarded as outdamaging Furies. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Wardens outheal furies only before furies get the 2 extra heals as ancient scrolls. Also furies outdamage wardens by a massive amount with grouped mobs. So minimal dps difference in single target is, well, minimal. But then I guess that the original comparison when druids got their improvement really was druid vs. templar. Edit. For the record, if I got my /class respect, I'd pick a warden. Just because my guild has enough furies and no wardens. In fact I am reconsidering my decision not to reroll another healer.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:00 PM</span>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR><BR>You are a little off.  Warden's still out heal Furies, and against single targets are widely regarded as outdamaging Furies. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Wardens outheal furies only before furies get the 2 extra heals as ancient scrolls. Also furies outdamage wardens by a massive amount with grouped mobs. So minimal dps difference in single target is, well, minimal.<BR><BR>But then I guess that the original comparison when druids got their improvement really was druid vs. templar.<BR><BR>Edit. For the record, if I got my /class respect, I'd pick a warden. Just because my guild has enough furies and no wardens. In fact I am reconsidering my decision not to reroll another healer.<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Timaarit on <SPAN class=date_text>11-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:00 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>From the data I've seen, pre 52 most priest classes either outheal or heal on par with Furies.  Is that what the uproar is about?  Those two 52+ spells?  One that is only mana effecient if the target is already half dead (and can't be cast on yourself) and another heal that takes <EM>ten seconds</EM> to land?  I think number crunching has blinded everybody from <EM>really</EM> looking at the situation.  By all means, lets nix all other priest class ancient spells, and replace them with clones of the Furies... I'm all for it.

[Caethre]

OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <DIV>So caeth at your lvl, lvl 46 your fury heals just as good as your templar?</DIV> <DIV>And you make it sound that pre cu all was balanced as furies did more dmg than templars but we got to heal for less?</DIV> <DIV>SO you were ok with how the cards were then eh?</DIV> <DIV>People picking up furies is just because furies are now considered the fun class we do dmg and heal, but really do you know how mystics/defilers/inqs/wardens are balanced against your templar? (yeah yeah I hear the "roll another healer yourself" comming, lol I wont (have enough alts as it is), but you must agree all this focus on furies is a bit one sided dont you think?).</DIV> <DIV>All this focus on furies is a bit strange as noone ever mentioned another healing class vs templars its even more strange that noone tried to compare themselves to the other cleric inquisitors (at least not on these boards).</DIV> <DIV>Saying your lvl 46 fury heals just as good as a templar could, well I dont believe that if you go and search for easy content yes a furies'heals at that lvl will suffice, but clearly at that lvl fury healing is in the lowest tier of any healer around. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:51 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Pleasing to see a post from you in a reasonable tone, thank you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, my Fury can heal basically as well as my Templar could at this level. I play both classes, I can make that call from experience. "Easy" content is very subjective - I mean against "normal" content that a small group would do. So, that might be for a three-person group, against white and low-yellow con heroics, she can heal quite easily AND do some DPS as well. Of course, she can contribute FAR more than my Templar with all that extra power she does not need to heal with. This is saying nothing you do not already know however.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But yes, you are 100% correct when you say this is not a Tempalr vs Fury issue. You know by now, that I only talk directly about Furies because they are the only other priest class I have direct playing experience of, so I know in detail the pluses and minuses (yes, there are minuses too, just they are easy to get around for the most part). But you are correct, Templars and Furies are just two from six of the priest classes. Templars are the weakest of the six, and Furies are the strongest, for obvious reasons, but the others all lie on a line between the two, with Inquistors closer the bottom, and Wardens and the shaman classes closer to the top. I don't speak in detail about those four as I do not play them myself. And yes, for you yourself to speak with any authority on any of them, you too would need to do as I have, and level up another character and learn it, you knew I would say that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>By the way, I remember you telling me on this board, when Annaelisa was about level 20 or so, how she would never in your opinion ever see Tier 6. Do you still believe this? *chuckle*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar]</DIV> <DIV>Annaelisa [46 Fury]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Timaarit wrote: <div></div><span> <blockquote> <hr> Bad_Mojo wrote:You are a little off.  Warden's still out heal Furies, and against single targets are widely regarded as outdamaging Furies. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Wardens outheal furies only before furies get the 2 extra heals as ancient scrolls. Also furies outdamage wardens by a massive amount with grouped mobs. So minimal dps difference in single target is, well, minimal.But then I guess that the original comparison when druids got their improvement really was druid vs. templar.Edit. For the record, if I got my /class respect, I'd pick a warden. Just because my guild has enough furies and no wardens. In fact I am reconsidering my decision not to reroll another healer.</span> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class="date_text">11-28-2005</span> <span class="time_text">04:00 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>From the data I've seen, pre 52 most priest classes either outheal or heal on par with Furies.  Is that what the uproar is about?  Those two 52+ spells?  One that is only mana effecient if the target is already half dead (and can't be cast on yourself) and another heal that takes <em>ten seconds</em> to land?  I think number crunching has blinded everybody from <em>really</em> looking at the situation.  By all means, lets nix all other priest class ancient spells, and replace them with clones of the Furies... I'm all for it. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Agreed.  The two spells especially make the "Best Healer" arguement moot.  Best healer is a Fury at 58+ -- prior to that it's atleast debatable. Now -- give the Templars Fury DPS and we'll call it a day.  That is -- if you actually want balance?  If it's OK for Fury to have Templar and better then Templar healing at LU13+ why can't Templar get Fury DPS at LU13+... hmmmm?????  You picked the Fury to DPS and get healing right?  Guess what -- many players picked Templar to be dedicated healer.  We all heal the same (Furies heal better) now where the hell is the balance?  Huh? </span><div></div>

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caethre wrote:<BR>OOC.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <DIV>So caeth at your lvl, lvl 46 your fury heals just as good as your templar?</DIV> <DIV>And you make it sound that pre cu all was balanced as furies did more dmg than templars but we got to heal for less?</DIV> <DIV>SO you were ok with how the cards were then eh?</DIV> <DIV>People picking up furies is just because furies are now considered the fun class we do dmg and heal, but really do you know how mystics/defilers/inqs/wardens are balanced against your templar? (yeah yeah I hear the "roll another healer yourself" comming, lol I wont (have enough alts as it is), but you must agree all this focus on furies is a bit one sided dont you think?).</DIV> <DIV>All this focus on furies is a bit strange as noone ever mentioned another healing class vs templars its even more strange that noone tried to compare themselves to the other cleric inquisitors (at least not on these boards).</DIV> <DIV>Saying your lvl 46 fury heals just as good as a templar could, well I dont believe that if you go and search for easy content yes a furies'heals at that lvl will suffice, but clearly at that lvl fury healing is in the lowest tier of any healer around. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:51 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Pleasing to see a post from you in a reasonable tone, thank you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, my Fury can heal basically as well as my Templar could at this level. I play both classes, I can make that call from experience. "Easy" content is very subjective - I mean against "normal" content that a small group would do. So, that might be for a three-person group, against white and low-yellow con heroics, she can heal quite easily AND do some DPS as well. Of course, she can contribute FAR more than my Templar with all that extra power she does not need to heal with. This is saying nothing you do not already know however.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But yes, you are 100% correct when you say this is not a Tempalr vs Fury issue. You know by now, that I only talk directly about Furies because they are the only other priest class I have direct playing experience of, so I know in detail the pluses and minuses (yes, there are minuses too, just they are easy to get around for the most part). But you are correct, Templars and Furies are just two from six of the priest classes. Templars are the weakest of the six, and Furies are the strongest, for obvious reasons, but the others all lie on a line between the two, with Inquistors closer the bottom, and Wardens and the shaman classes closer to the top. I don't speak in detail about those four as I do not play them myself. And yes, for you yourself to speak with any authority on any of them, you too would need to do as I have, and level up another character and learn it, you knew I would say that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>By the way, I remember you telling me on this board, when Annaelisa was about level 20 or so, how she would never in your opinion ever see Tier 6. Do you still believe this? *chuckle*</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Felishanna [53 Templar]</DIV> <DIV>Annaelisa [46 Fury]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nah I didnt say that on these boards I said it on the fury boards as I thought you were just another person who would throw comparisons between a lowbie toon and hi lvl toon just to start flames etc. I must say grats to the lving, tho Im not entirely sure yet if youre really seeing the fury as another class you play or as a means to get templars upped/furies lessened not entirely sure about that yet as how would you know if furies are the strongest healer and mystics/wardens in the middle? You dont know that and neither do I.</P> <P>People just say things as furies are on top, blablabla but how would you know that if the only comparison is made is the comparison templar vs fury which is more balanced as people seem to think on these boards imo but that my opinion of course (they need to fix some of your spells change the lotto heals etc.) I know some inquisitors who are happy with the cu and they have excellent raid utillity in haste etc. also in raids theres always a cleric in the mt group too.</P> <P>Easy encounters are what makes templars suck, their added healing/def pwr isnt really needed in those circumstances so their sec ability goes to waste on those encounters.</P> <P>Combat is quick and most encounters arent that hard I think that thats the biggest problem here.<BR></P>

[quetzaqotl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR><BR>You are a little off.  Warden's still out heal Furies, and against single targets are widely regarded as outdamaging Furies. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Wardens outheal furies only before furies get the 2 extra heals as ancient scrolls. Also furies outdamage wardens by a massive amount with grouped mobs. So minimal dps difference in single target is, well, minimal.<BR><BR>But then I guess that the original comparison when druids got their improvement really was druid vs. templar.<BR><BR>Edit. For the record, if I got my /class respect, I'd pick a warden. Just because my guild has enough furies and no wardens. In fact I am reconsidering my decision not to reroll another healer.<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Timaarit on <SPAN class=date_text>11-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:00 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>From the data I've seen, pre 52 most priest classes either outheal or heal on par with Furies.  Is that what the uproar is about?  Those two 52+ spells?  One that is only mana effecient if the target is already half dead (and can't be cast on yourself) and another heal that takes <EM>ten seconds</EM> to land?  I think number crunching has blinded everybody from <EM>really</EM> looking at the situation.  By all means, lets nix all other priest class ancient spells, and replace them with clones of the Furies... I'm all for it. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed.  The two spells especially make the "Best Healer" arguement moot.  Best healer is a Fury at 58+ -- prior to that it's atleast debatable.<BR><BR>Now -- give the Templars Fury DPS and we'll call it a day.  That is -- if you actually want balance?  If it's OK for Fury to have Templar and better then Templar healing at LU13+ why can't Templar get Fury DPS at LU13+... hmmmm?????  You picked the Fury to DPS and get healing right?  Guess what -- many players picked Templar to be dedicated healer.  We all heal the same (Furies heal better) now where the hell is the balance?  Huh?<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>For the love of god big read for a change, as has been said many many times hibernation is highly highly situational (only on some raids its useful) and bitf is a cool spell I agree it rocks in the right circumstance when the tank is in the orange its great other than that situation bitf is quite useless.</P> <P> </P>

[Zapo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <P>.... snipp.....</P> <P><BR>For the love of god big read for a change, as has been said many many times hibernation is highly highly situational (only on some raids its useful) and bitf is a cool spell I agree it rocks in the right circumstance when the tank is in the orange its great other than that situation bitf is quite useless.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hmm, but you know that those situations where the tank is in orange is where the healer begins to shine, don't you ? And as you said yourself bitf helps there. As a templar (I guess any healer) would love such a spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something else, can't you two debate your issues using pm's or so ? You are carrying your discussion through every forum and most of the time it just looks like you play ping pong without ever getting to a common understanding. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Anthur on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:50 AM</span>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>K will do anth can see that it gets a bit irritating heh shall try to control myself a little more it's  just that some people keep repeating themselves so i have to repeat the point I made in the hope the person finally gets it.</P> <P>But yeah couldve done it in a pm but then the exaggeration of mr mak would just be there "infecting" more people, but ok I will back off a little depending on what other people post <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>to cow below me:</P> <P>Cow wrote:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>The focus on Furies is really easy to explain. Follow this thought.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Furies are the BEST Healer out there now, not by a little bit but by a lot. Not just in terms of healing but in every aspect of playing a healer including damage et al.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Like before CU 13 when every healer was compared to a Templar. See thats why you are compared to. Understand?</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>The question is do you understand Cow? what little birdy told you that furies are the best healer? did you check out what other healers have before you made a statement like that?</P> <P>How do shamans play compared to clerics or maybe even templars compared to inquisitors? </P> <P>Comparing furies now with templars before cu is rediculous.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:43 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <DIV>So caeth at your lvl, lvl 46 your fury heals just as good as your templar?</DIV> <DIV>And you make it sound that pre cu all was balanced as furies did more dmg than templars but we got to heal for less?</DIV> <DIV>SO you were ok with how the cards were then eh?</DIV> <DIV>People picking up furies is just because furies are now considered the fun class we do dmg and heal, but really do you know how mystics/defilers/inqs/wardens are balanced against your templar? (yeah yeah I hear the "roll another healer yourself" comming, lol I wont (have enough alts as it is), but you must agree all this focus on furies is a bit one sided dont you think?).</DIV> <DIV>All this focus on furies is a bit strange as noone ever mentioned another healing class vs templars its even more strange that noone tried to compare themselves to the other cleric inquisitors (at least not on these boards).</DIV> <DIV>Saying your lvl 46 fury heals just as good as a templar could, well I dont believe that if you go and search for easy content yes a furies'heals at that lvl will suffice, but clearly at that lvl fury healing is in the lowest tier of any healer around. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:51 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The focus on Furies is really easy to explain. Follow this thought.</P> <P>Furies are the BEST Healer out there now, not by a little bit but by a lot. Not just in terms of healing but in every aspect of playing a healer including damage et al.</P> <P>Like before CU 13 when every healer was compared to a Templar. See thats why you are compared to. Understand?<BR></P>

[Mabes]

<DIV>I'll jump in by saying that soloing with my templar is about as enjoyable as reading all of this flaming.  Give us DPS!</DIV>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bigmak2010 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Agreed.  The two spells especially make the "Best Healer" arguement moot.  Best healer is a Fury at 58+ -- prior to that it's atleast debatable.<BR><BR>Now -- give the Templars Fury DPS and we'll call it a day.  That is -- if you actually want balance?  If it's OK for Fury to have Templar and better then Templar healing at LU13+ why can't Templar get Fury DPS at LU13+... hmmmm?????  You picked the Fury to DPS and get healing right?  Guess what -- many players picked Templar to be dedicated healer.  We all heal the same (Furies heal better) now where the hell is the balance?  Huh?<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P>Since you guys never seem to want to discuss numbers, I'm going to do your homework for you.  I've said before I think Temp's need a damage boost, and now I'm going to show you why.</P> <P>I'm going to borrow these posts from the priest forum - My notes are in the wierd <FONT color=#ccff00>yellow/green color</FONT> <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I added averages to the lists, makes it easier to assess what's going on.</P> <HR> <P>NG23985_01 wrote:  <FONT color=#ccff00><--- Thanks NG, for all the legwork!</FONT><BR></P> <DIV> <DIV>I have noticed that after the CU, many priests are complaining that they dont do enough DPS, or their DPS is inferior to a different Priest class, so I've taken it upon myself to calculate some numbers for sub-class comparison between the priests. Please keep this post nice! Please no flaming, bickering, ect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>All of these damage numbers are taken from T6 damage spells, with 225 int, all spells being of Adept 1 quality. The damage does NOT include bonuses like Mystic's bonus to Nightbloods, or Templar's bonus to Undead. Also, in instances where a DoT has a longer duration than its recast time, I assumed that the user would let the DoT wear off first, before recasting it. In practice, spells seldom land for their minimum, or their maximum exactly - so the real DPS and Efficiency will fall somewhere in between the min and the max listed here.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Minimum Damage = lowest possible hit (for DoTs, assuming it lasts the whole duration)<BR>Maximum Damage = highest possible hit</DIV> <DIV>Minimum DPS = least-DPS possible, assuming no resists, if the spell in question is chain-cast (for DoTs, assuming they last the whole duration)</DIV> <DIV>Maximum DPS = highest possible DPS, assuming no resists, if the spell in question is chain-cast (for DoTs, assuming they last the whole duration)</DIV> <DIV>Minimum Efficiency = Damage<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />ower ratio, for the lowest possible total-damage<BR>Maximum Efficiency = Damage<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />ower ratio, for the highest possible total-damage<BR><BR>Key:</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Class: Spell : Min. Damage-Max. Damage ; Min. DPS-Max. DPS ; Min. Efficiency-Max. Efficiency</DIV> <DIV>Note: DoTs that have a Duration greater than their Recast time are coloured <FONT color=#3300ff>Blue</FONT> - in theory, you could keep these DoTs running on multiple creatures at once. Other DoTs have a duration to match exactly their recast time, and cannot be cast on multiple monsters at once.</DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR><STRONG>Archetype Spell Line</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Fury: <FONT color=#3300ff>Killing Swarm</FONT>: 500-610 ; 38.46-46.92 <FONT color=#ccff00>(51.3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT>; 6.17-7.53 <FONT color=#ccff00>(6.85)</FONT><BR>Warden: Winter's Sting: 400-489 ; 80-97.8<FONT color=#ccff00> (88.9)</FONT>; 4.93-6.03<FONT color=#ccff00> (5.4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Mystic: Wrath of the Grey: 300-356 ; 60-71.2 <FONT color=#ccff00>(65.6)</FONT>; 4.22-5.01 <FONT color=#ccff00>(4.62)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Defiler: Ruinous Anathema: 300-356 ; 60-71.2 <FONT color=#ccff00>(65.6)</FONT>; 4.22-5.01 <FONT color=#ccff00>(4.62)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Templar: Judging Smite: 300-356 ; 60-71.2 <FONT color=#ccff00>(65.6)</FONT>; 4.22-5.01<FONT color=#ccff00> (4.62)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor: Ruthless Invocation: 300-356 ; 60-71.2 <FONT color=#ccff00>(65.6)</FONT>; 4.22-5.01 <FONT color=#ccff00>(4.62)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>DPS Ranking:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Warden</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Mystic - Defiler - Templar - Inquisitor</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Fury</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Efficiency Ranking:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Fury</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Warden</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Mystic - Defiler - Templar - Inquisitor</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>Observations: Furies have the least DPS with this spell line, but the greatest efficiency. Wardens have the best DPS/second best efficiency. Everybody else tied with 3rd place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Furies have the *least* DPS in this line but are very mana efficient (sadly, this isn't something we see often), Warden's have the most DPS and are second only to Furies in efficiency.  Templars are TIED with the Mystic, Defiler, and Inquisitor exactly.  These numbers could be broadened a bit I think across all the classes, to create more of an overlap in the ranges.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><STRONG>Class Spell Line</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Fury: Waterspout: 655-800 ; 65.5-80 <FONT color=#ccff00>(72.75)</FONT>; 6.68-8.16 <FONT color=#ccff00>(7.42)</FONT><BR>Warden: Hoarfrost: 525-642 ; 52.5-64.2 <FONT color=#ccff00>(58.35)</FONT>; 5.35-6.55 <FONT color=#ccff00>(5.95)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Mystic: <FONT color=#3300ff>Fevered Pox</FONT>: 819 ; 32.76 ; 7.58</DIV> <DIV>Defiler: <FONT color=#3300ff>Infestation:</FONT> 784 ; 31.36 ; 10.59</DIV> <DIV>Templar: Consecrated Strike: 350-428 ; 35-42.8 <FONT color=#ccff00>(38.9)</FONT>; 4.72-5.78 <FONT color=#ccff00>(5.25)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor: <FONT color=#3300ff>Scourge</FONT>: 525-644 ; 21-25.76 <FONT color=#ccff00>(23.3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT>; 7.09-8.7 <FONT color=#ccff00>(7.9)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>DPS Ranking:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Fury</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Warden</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Templar</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Mystic</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Defiler</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Inquisitor</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Efficiency Ranking:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Defiler</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Inquisitor</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Mystic</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Fury</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Warden</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Templar</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Observations: Defiler has the best efficiency, by far, and will likely do a little more damage than what is listed due to the fact that Infestation is a WIS (resistance) debuff. Consecrated Strike (Templar) seems to be underpowered a bit, both in DPS and Efficiency. Scourge (Inquisitor) also looks to need a tiny boost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>For this line of spells, the Templar is rock bottom in efficiency, though they do outdo the Inquisitor, Defiler, and Mystic in DPS. <STRONG> I am all for a boost to Consecrated Strike - As a DD, it's deplorable</STRONG>.  Notice however that Defilers and Mystics are all more efficient than the Fury's average efficiency of 7.42.... And Inquisitors are more efficient than Furies as well.  Furies do have the top DPS spot however, but it's a DoT.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Subclass Spell Line</STRONG><BR>Fury: Bolt of Storms: 834-1390 ; 46.33-77.22 <FONT color=#ccff00>(61.7<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT>; 4.38-7.31 <FONT color=#ccff00>(5.85)</FONT><BR>Warden: Wintry Cold: 875-1071 ; 35-42.84 <FONT color=#ccff00>(38.92)</FONT>; 7.35-9 <FONT color=#ccff00>(8.175)</FONT><BR>Mystic: Arctic Flames: 730-890 ; 52.14-63.57 <FONT color=#ccff00>(57.86)</FONT>; 6.13-7.47 <FONT color=#ccff00>(6.<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Defiler: Fulginous Tendril: 710-865 ; 39.44-48.05 <FONT color=#ccff00>(43.75)</FONT>; 5.96-7.26 <FONT color=#ccff00>(6.61)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Templar: Warring Conviction: 624-763 ; 34.66-42.38 <FONT color=#ccff00>(38.52)</FONT>; 5.24-6.41 <FONT color=#ccff00>(5.83)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor: Purifying Flames: 710-865 ; 39.44-48.05 <FONT color=#ccff00>(43.75)</FONT>; 5.96-7.26 <FONT color=#ccff00>(6.61)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>DPS Ranking:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Fury</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Mystic</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Defiler - Inquisitor</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Warden</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Templar</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Efficiency Ranking:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Warden</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Mystic</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Defiler - Inquisitor</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Fury</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Templar</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ccff00>Efficiency:</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>This is one of our big damage spells.  When it hits hard, it hits HARD.  Thanks to the extremely wide range of damage however, when it hits soft our efficiency is outdone by Wardens, Mystics, Defilers, Inquisitors, and yes, even Templars.  Even at our peak, if we get that solid hit for 1390 damage, we are still less effecient than Wardens.  I averaged out the efficiency of these spells, and noticed that we rank RIGHT THERE with Templars!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ccff00>DPS:</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Furies are indeed the highest DPS, just squeaking in above Mystics.  Pair this with the efficiency however and you'll see that we pay for our damage with increased power costs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Now, I'll be honest, I'm not sure how Templars ended up with the lowest DPS <EM>AND </EM>efficiency for this line, but if I were you guys I'd post up about it in the SA&CA forum.  There's no way that's right.  Either you need a power cost decrease to increase efficiency, or a damage boost... unless they think the x2 damage to undead is making up for it, but if that's the case I'd complain anyway.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Observations: Fury has the greatest damage variance (how random it is). Fury also has the lowest efficiency in this type of spell. In light of DPS, its fairly even, except for Warden being a little low compared to the others, although Wintry Cold is also an elemental debuff, so will likely hit a tiny bit harder than listed here. Warring Conviction (Templar) is a little weaker than it should be, also.<BR><BR>I hope this information has provided some insight into the realities of Priest DPS. Numerically it seems to be <STRONG>reasonably</STRONG> balanced. It's not perfect, granted, and if *I* were a spell editor, I'd give Templars and Inquisitors a little more DPS, give Furies a little less damage variance, and a little more efficiency all across the board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>My final take?  Yes Templars need some work in a few areas.  But constantly crying about Furies is pointless.  Look at the breakdown...  Furies are top DPS in two of these lines (and one of those is a DoT), but make up for it in poor efficiency (not to mention while we are leaps and bounds ahead of Temp's, there are classes nipping at our heels in both).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>If I were Templars, I would take this information and make a thread in the SA&CA forum, asking why Warring Conviction is bringing you in last in both DPS and efficiency.  Anyone else find it odd that Inquisitors and <EM>Defilers</EM> are equal in there?  Might want to bring up in general why there are classes where DPS/efficiency is so borked.  Can't have it both ways, either you are doing damage and burning mana like it's going out of style (one solo blue will take me down to below half power for example), or you are coming out of fights with a near full bar of power though it took you longer to finish (maybe balanced by less downtime).  Overall, I'd like to see the Dev's take a look at Dmg/pwr altogether, there's some shenanigans going on...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NG23985_01 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Please refer to my other post for Single-Target T6 Priest DPS, however, I will also attempt to account for the secondary effects that they have in THIS post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First Post:<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4644" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=11&message.id=4644</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's the AE Data following the same rules.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>All of these spells are Adept 1, with 225 intelligence <U>EXCEPT Templar's Blaze of Faith</U>. Sorry, I couldn't find a link. Instead, it is listed as Apprentice 4.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Class: Spell: Min-Max Dam (per target), Min-Max DPS (per target), Min-Max Efficiency (per target)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fury: Starnova: 1224-1496 ; 51-62.33 <FONT color=#ccff00>(56.67)</FONT>; 3.44-4.21<FONT color=#ccff00>(3.83)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Warden: Winds of Arctic Cold: 714-843 ; 37.57-44.36 <FONT color=#ccff00>(40.97)</FONT>; 4.3-5.07 <FONT color=#ccff00>(4.69)</FONT><BR>Mystic: Wrath of the Ancients: 521 ; 34.73 ; 3.13<BR>Defiler: Caliginous Corruption: (Need a defiler to tell me the Duration on this line of DoT before i can calculate it! Sorry!)<BR>Templar: Blaze of Faith: 397 ; 20.89 ; 2.87<BR>Inquisitor: Litany of Agony: 357-436 ; 19.83-24.22 <FONT color=#ccff00>(22.03)</FONT>; 2.58-3.15 <FONT color=#ccff00>(2.87)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Not going to comment too much here since the Templar spell listed is only App4.  I can see where there can be some work upwards in respect to Mystics and Inquisitors however.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At some point, I will try to find a link to Defiler's "Maelstrom of Decay", an additional AE that they have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Observations on the AE's:<BR>On paper, Fury's AE seems to have a lot of DPS, however it has the longest casting time. It's very difficult to get a 4 second cast time AE off with several monsters beating on you. Warden has the best Efficiency. Mystic's damage could be improved a little, perhaps by reducing the recast by 1 or 2 seconds, or increasing the damage a bit. (Defiler, cant calculate yet) Templar's is Apprentice 4, so the Adept 1 is slightly more than the numbers above. Both Templar and Inquisitor need a little stronger and more efficiency in their AE's. I dont play a Cleric, but <STRONG>I dont feel threatened when one of my "competing" priest classes gets a little boost, especially when its one they need.</STRONG><BR><BR>~<BR><BR>Now for Observations on the secondary effects of the Single-Target damage spells in my other post.<BR><BR>Fury: Killing Swarm: Reduces the victim's "Defense" skill. Theoretically, melee will hit the victim harder while under the effect of this spell.<BR>Warden: Winter's Sting: No real bonus, other than it hits harder than the other standard "Smite" spells.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Mystic: Wrath of the Grey: Secondary Effect is a snare. Seems useless.</DIV> <DIV>Defiler: Ruinous Anathema: Decreases victim's Noxious mitigation for a short duration. Theoretically this would help Defiler's other Damage spells hit a little harder.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Templar: Judging Smite: Secondary effect is broken if the target takes any other damage. Seems useless.</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor: Ruthless Invocation: Same as Templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Is the secondary effects of your Judging Smite really broken?  What is it supposed to do?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Fury: Waterspout: Double damage against Elementals. Sounds nice, but Elemental monsters are too sparse.<BR>Warden: Hoarfrost: Same as Fury.</DIV> <DIV>Mystic: <FONT color=#3300ff>Fevered Pox</FONT>: Double damage against Nightbloods and Shadowed Men. Seems good, but I dont know how well it works in practice.</DIV> <DIV>Defiler: <FONT color=#3300ff>Infestation<FONT color=#ffffff>:</FONT> </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>Wisdom debuff, theoretically will make all spells hit harder, but in practice Wisdom debuffs dont seem to help a whole lot.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Templar: Consecrated Strike: Double damage to Undead. Sounds good, but as with Mystic, I'm not sure how well it works in practice.</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor: <FONT color=#3300ff>Scourge</FONT>: Decreases Mental Mitigation, and also does Mental Damage. Theoretically it will hit a bit harder than it actually says.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>I've seen posts in the Templar forums citing higher damage done against undead.  If this is working, then it's something Templars have it all over Furies, Wardens, and Mystics since undead are in almost every zone imaginable as opposed to what the rest get.  They probably also have it all over Defilers, since I doubt WIS gets debuffed to the point of anywhere near double damage - I have a WIS debuff on another spell line and I don't see a difference at all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Honestly, if they gave you Fury damage, they would have to do away with this unless they want Templars encroaching on mage territory with the higher hits.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT><BR>Fury: Bolt of Storms: No secondary bonus.<BR>Warden: Wintry Cold: Decreases Elemental Mitigation, which will make this spell, and Warden's other 2 damage spell types hit a little harder.<BR>Mystic: Arctic Flames: No secondary bonus. </DIV> <DIV>Defiler: Fulginous Tendril: Decreases attack speed. Not much of a bonus though.</DIV> <DIV>Templar: Warring Conviction: Hits slightly harder than twice as much damage on the first tick.</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor: Purifying Flames: Decreases victim's Divine Mitigation. Theoretically will make Ruthless Invocation hit a little harder.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Nothing for Furies or Mystics here.  Granted the rest of these secondary effects don't seem so great either.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition, the following classes have Debuffs.<BR><BR>Fury (Wisdom)</DIV> <DIV>Templar (Mitigation)</DIV> <DIV>Inquisitor (Mitigation)</DIV> <DIV>Cleric (Both subs) also have Symbol of Corruption. (Apprentice 4, 225 int: debuff's 28 Wisdom, and deals damage, but I dont know the duration, so I cant calculate the total damage.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Gladly trade you my WIS debuff for a good Mitigation debuff <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR><BR>If I have missed any, please inform me!</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by NG23985_01 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:07 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote:<> <div><font color="#ccff00">I've seen posts in the Templar forums citing higher damage done against undead.  If this is working, then it's something Templars have it all over Furies, Wardens, and Mystics since undead are in almost every zone imaginable as opposed to what the rest get.  They probably also have it all over Defilers, since I doubt WIS gets debuffed to the point of anywhere near double damage - I have a WIS debuff on another spell line and I don't see a difference at all.</font></div> <div><font color="#ccff00">Honestly, if they gave you Fury damage, they would have to do away with this unless they want Templars encroaching on mage territory with the higher hits.</font></div> <div></div> <> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Haha, now this is funny. The bonus against undead actully gives us about 20% more DPS against undead. So what you are saying is that furies do 20% less DPS than mages and you think that is how it is supposed to be while furies heal at worst just like any other priest. </span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR><><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>I've seen posts in the Templar forums citing higher damage done against undead.  If this is working, then it's something Templars have it all over Furies, Wardens, and Mystics since undead are in almost every zone imaginable as opposed to what the rest get.  They probably also have it all over Defilers, since I doubt WIS gets debuffed to the point of anywhere near double damage - I have a WIS debuff on another spell line and I don't see a difference at all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Honestly, if they gave you Fury damage, they would have to do away with this unless they want Templars encroaching on mage territory with the higher hits.</FONT></DIV> <> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Haha, now this is funny. The bonus against undead actully gives us about 20% more DPS against undead. So what you are saying is that furies do 20% less DPS than mages and you think that is how it is supposed to be while furies heal at worst just like any other priest. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not as funny as you completely miscomprehending what I said.</P> <P>The original post from the priest forum said "DOUBLE DAMAGE," and I said "<STRONG><EM><U><FONT color=#ffff00>IF</FONT></U></EM></STRONG> this is working.  See that "if?" I was going off of 200%, not 20%.</P> <P>Instead of just answering with "Hey, it's broken and actually only @ 20%," you had to twist it into an attack and put words into my mouth that I never said.  You also ignored everything else, including the spell line where Temps are lowest in DPS <EM>and</EM> efficiency... What? Is the undead bonus more important than getting that travesty fixed?  See, things like that are what's making the plight of the Templar such a joke.</P>

[Timaarit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote: <p>Not as funny as you completely miscomprehending what I said.</p> <p>The original post from the priest forum said "DOUBLE DAMAGE," and I said "<strong><em><u><font color="#ffff00">IF</font></u></em></strong> this is working.  See that "if?" I was going off of 200%, not 20%.</p> <p>Instead of just answering with "Hey, it's broken and actually only @ 20%," you had to twist it into an attack and put words into my mouth that I never said.  You also ignored everything else, including the spell line where Temps are lowest in DPS <em>and</em> efficiency... What? Is the undead bonus more important than getting that travesty fixed?  See, things like that are what's making the plight of the Templar such a joke.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>But it does do double damage on undead and it is working. You totally failed to understand what I wrote. The bonus means templars do 20% more DPS against undeads than other mobs. What you said is that if templars get fury DPS, we need to get rid of that extra damage or we would do damage related to mages. So in effect you said that fury DPS + 20% = mage damage. Or then you are totally wrong and even if templars got fury DPS, this bonus against undead would mean nothing in comparison to mages. And the spell is not broken. But it is only one of our 3 main nukes and it has a long recast time. Our plight lies in totally different place than in one spells bonus damage against undead. Even with that bonus, it is still worse DPS against undead than one of the furys big nukes.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Timaarit on <span class=date_text>11-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR> <P>Not as funny as you completely miscomprehending what I said.</P> <P>The original post from the priest forum said "DOUBLE DAMAGE," and I said "<STRONG><EM><U><FONT color=#ffff00>IF</FONT></U></EM></STRONG> this is working.  See that "if?" I was going off of 200%, not 20%.</P> <P>Instead of just answering with "Hey, it's broken and actually only @ 20%," you had to twist it into an attack and put words into my mouth that I never said.  You also ignored everything else, including the spell line where Temps are lowest in DPS <EM>and</EM> efficiency... What? Is the undead bonus more important than getting that travesty fixed?  See, things like that are what's making the plight of the Templar such a joke.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>But it does do double damage on undead and it is working. You totally failed to understand what I wrote. The bonus means templars do 20% more DPS against undeads than other mobs. What you said is that if templars get fury DPS, we need to get rid of that extra damage or we would do damage related to mages. So in effect you said that fury DPS + 20% = mage damage.<BR> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>Ahh, I see.  But I wasn't talking about DPS, I was talking about the raw damage.  Look at the Fury spell in my big post above where we do great damage, but our efficiency is *way* low.  People don't see us casting that spell and say "Wow, look how fast his power is dropping," they say "OMG! Furies are teh win!".  Doubling the damage of that nuke, even if it's only against a certain type of target, would have everybody in here screaming about how Furies are nuking for almost 3k damage.  Nobody cares about the details.</FONT></P> <P><BR>Or then you are totally wrong and even if templars got fury DPS, this bonus against undead would mean nothing in comparison to mages.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>Correct, DPS would be nowhere near a mage.  But perception would put you on a pedestal right up here with us Furies <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR><BR>And the spell is not broken. But it is only one of our 3 main nukes and it has a long recast time. <FONT color=#ffff00>Our plight lies in totally different place than in one spells bonus damage against undead</FONT>. Even with that bonus, it is still worse DPS against undead than one of the furys big nukes.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>Which was the point of that post to begin with.  You seem to have your head on straight, what's your assessment of the numbers shown?  I think it highlights a few of the Templars shortcomings, as well as shows an odd trend of damage/efficiency that doesn't seem to follow any set rules.</FONT><BR></P></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Timaarit on <SPAN class=date_text>11-29-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:19 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P>

[Timaarit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote:<div></div> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Here is the actual deal; in comparison to furies, templars do about 30% less DPS than furies with the spells in question. Even against undead templars fall 10% short. And this does not include fury utility damage nor fury burst damage. Personally I have no problems with a fury scoring 1,5k with a single nuke, my problem is that in order to get to same damage, templar has to cast one spell 3 or 4 times and wait for recast every single time. Eventually this means 3 to 4 times longer soloing. Besides, a lvl 55 wizard will do 4k+ damage per hit against undead while my templar can at best do a bit under 1k (with divine debuff and 230 int). so triple damage would not be anything special there (this is part of suggestion to triple damage and power cost on templar nukes and to multiply recast by 2,5 in order to put them inline with fury base DPS).</span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Timaarit wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Here is the actual deal; in comparison to furies, templars do about 30% less DPS than furies with the spells in question. Even against undead templars fall 10% short. And this does not include fury utility damage nor fury burst damage. Personally I have no problems with a fury scoring 1,5k with a single nuke, my problem is that in order to get to same damage, templar has to cast one spell 3 or 4 times and wait for recast every single time. Eventually this means 3 to 4 times longer soloing. <BR><BR>Besides, a lvl 55 wizard will do 4k+ damage per hit against undead while my templar can at best do a bit under 1k (with divine debuff and 230 int). so triple damage would not be anything special there (this is part of suggestion to triple damage and power cost on templar nukes and to multiply recast by 2,5 in order to put them inline with fury base DPS).<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Good points.  I think it's important to state however that in the grand scheme of things, 30% less DPS should not directly balance out to 30% more healing on the other end.  When it comes time to form a group, and a healer is needed - who is going to get picked?  Only a fool would pick the higher damaging/less healing priest for the job.  I admit (moreso after reviewing some spell stats for most of the healing caste) that something should be done though. I Think what they may have been trying to go for is Templars taking longer, but coming out of the fight with more mana (more efficient), and Furies being quicker but burning more mana.  This would balance out with downtime, we would need more and Templars would be quicker to get on to the next encounter.  I'm not sure they were successful.  I used to think "Yeah, we do more upfront damage, but in the long haul I'm sure Templars and Inquisitors are far more efficient with their faster casting though less damaging spells.  Mystics and Defilers of course would be in the happy medium."</P> <P>I see that's not really the case.  In some ways, the Shaman classes are better, in some the Furies.  Templars and Inquisitors really have no claim to fame, not even effeciency.  Does this mean Furies need nerfed?  I don't think so.  There are other classes *right* behind us, if we go down, all we are doing is shifting the target of everyone elses ire to those classes - The bickering will all be the same, it will just be who is getting called out that will be different.</P>