Test Server-Copying chacters??

[Zhonata]

<DIV>Alright i read the post on this. How to do it, how it works, and why. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While i do understand that you wan to get the potentiial troll out of the test server and keep the communtiy focused on the purpose. Not allowing chacter coping seem to seriously cripple your ability to have more feedback. I personally would love to help with the changes being delt to my high lvl character right now, but i dont have the time nor the will to spend another month or 2 lvling a chacter to do this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While you are keeping potential trolls out you are also keeping potential and vital asets out. In my opinion the mass negative feedback that is gotten after things hit live is a direct reaction to not enought people testing. People constantly asking for opinions from people on testing in the class forums and not getting any. That lack of crafter and and classes at high lvls...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like i said i and a lot of people i know would like to help, but asking us to spend another 2 months or ish lvl a chacter is a bit demanding. You can weed out trolls if you need be through a petition/points system. I dont know, but i guess you see that by making people lvl thier chacter in test you are getting a more devoted test base., What about those of us taht have lvl our chacters on live and it took 3 times longers, i should say we are devoted to. I should say we have just as much to contribute as someone on test....</DIV>

[Shantee]

<div></div>Ok, I'm a full time tester, and these little shots just are getting tiring.  I just want to say, that we has testers report tons and tons of bugs.  Do they all get fixed before they hit Live.. No.  There was several bugs like the guild bug when it went live caused all types of havoc.  It was reported numerous times over and over on test, but they never fixed it til it went live.  There was posts on the boards, bug reports, talking directly to the SOE QA's.    I just am asking ppl to think bout all the bugs that are reported, that are fixed before they hit live.  Course you never see that, since they are fixed  <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> They are forced to put out these patches with in a week  of them hitting test, sometimes less. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Shantee on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:53 AM</span>

[Tybr]

<P>I believe Shan that he/she is requesting a character copy, not trying to flame the testers. I myself would like to copy my tune over...</P> <P> </P> <P>By the way thanks for helping to test the new material. You guys don't get enough credit.</P> <p>Message Edited by Tybr on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 AM</span>

[Shantee]

I know what he is saying.  But if the copying of characters did happen it would shoot our ecomony in the foot.  Things are way less on test than they are on live servers.  We trade items more than sell items.  We would love more ppl on test, but not as copies.  If they come either make them or if you wanted to transfer permantly to test. <div></div>

[Twizzel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shantee wrote:<BR>  <SPAN>:</SPAN> They are forced to put out these patches with in a week  of them hitting test, sometimes less.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Shantee on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:53 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Somehow, I don't think they are "forced" to release anything, except on their schedule.  I echo the thanks for trying, but until there is a representation of every class/tradeskill across most levels actually testing on test, it will be a contiual process of releasing really bugged material.  Allowing copy overs would help them do that.  They could deal with trolls as they find them and boot them from the server.  Or, tell people if they copy over their main to test, it must stay 30 days (or whatever) before it can go back...this would alleviate folks just jumping on test to see new content before it goes live.  Lots of ways they could improve if the process if they were only willing to try...since whatever is in place now isn't working too well.</DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Shantee wrote:<div></div>Ok, I'm a full time tester, and these little shots just are getting tiring.  I just want to say, that we has testers report tons and tons of bugs.  Do they all get fixed before they hit Live.. No.  There was several bugs like the guild bug when it went live caused all types of havoc.  It was reported numerous times over and over on test, but they never fixed it til it went live.  There was posts on the boards, bug reports, talking directly to the SOE QA's.    I just am asking ppl to think bout all the bugs that are reported, that are fixed before they hit live.  Course you never see that, since they are fixed  <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> They are forced to put out these patches with in a week  of them hitting test, sometimes less. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Shantee on <span class="date_text">11-05-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:53 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Yeah.  The real problem, honestly?  Has got to be the Live Update schedule.  We actually have QA and Devs on Test on weekends, late hours, all kinds of crazy stuff, the week before a Live Update. But since we get it as a Test Update at the <i>very most</i> 8 days before it goes live, and LU dates are always pretty much set in stone, I think there's only so much they, as a development team made entirely of human beings, can do.  The Test community is very active, very dedicated and very, very vocal.  In-game QA take bugs form us in person, in tells, and in the mail.  On-boards QA and devs read and respond to our posts.  And then bugs go Live and everyone and their cousin is of the opinion that the bug went completely unreported or completely unacknowledged and that their Keen Powers Of Observation would have made it all better if only they'd gotten copied to Test!  And this is almost never the case (with exceptions for bugs experienced when, say, six players of these particular levels and those particular classes group and weird things happen, which may or may not have been caught in testing because to test every single possible combination in the game would be more or less impossible). I try, in general, not to get riled up about the copy requests, because the OP, like most people I'm sure, really do all genuinely want to help improve the game.  But it's true that all the digs at those of us who love being part of Test just get tiring.  Most of them are easy to ignore but it's frustrating, because character copies clearly aren't the answer.  Test is a great environment to play in and a fantastic environment for catching bugs -- especially in this renaissance of clear communication from and to SOE -- and it's just frustrating time and time again to see that all be overlooked for the attitude of, "no-one ever saw this bug that's affecting me personally, and it's totally their fault for not having my high-level copy on Test."  The Test population is as varied, if not as large, as a standard Live population.  Tradeskillers of every tier and class abound, as do adventurers.  It's not a matter of representation; it's a matter of resolution. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by EtoilePB on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 PM</span>

[Zhonata]

<P>Im not trying to take anything away from thsoe that test. Those that test i am sure do a great job. Im sure without you that are on test this game would a sunk and a rut long ago and i would have now where to post.</P> <P>On the flip side there are those of us that just dont have the tiem to devote to lvl a chacter to 60 on a test server even with infinte vita. I will like to help with the changes and many many many other would liek to as well. IF yo uare afriad of trollers, soe can always boot them, if you are afraid of inflation, then soe can give out free componets for crafters... IT is test after all. The point is to test the game for it to go live. I assume that from what you are all saying that it is also a community much like live.</P> <P>Well i have constantly herad people on test sayingher isnt htis lvl armorer yet or so liek that. I msure that you may have all the types covered ,but mroe people would always help as long as that is what they are their for. IF it isnt hte prolbem with the bug being reported and a problem with them getting fixed then soe need to readjust their schedule or higher more people. </P>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zhonata wrote: <p>Well i have constantly herad people on test sayingher isnt htis lvl armorer yet or so liek that. I msure that you may have all the types covered ,but mroe people would always help as long as that is what they are their for. IF it isnt hte prolbem with the bug being reported and a problem with them getting fixed then soe need to readjust their schedule or higher more people.</p> <hr></blockquote> In crafting especially, we do tend to get gaps.  For adventuring, people forever roll new toons or new people come to Test, but in crafting specialties there's a pretty big gap between 20 and 50 where people either aren't there yet or have leveled past it.  Me taking six months to get my tailor to 30 has actually been helpful to a lot of people who need T2 and T3 leather and cloth, hehe. As for schedule, however, I'd absolutely agree that something should change there.  Breaking up the Live Updates into components (a, b, and so on) has definitely been a positive step; it allows testing of the biggest changes for two or more weeks before they go live, and allows them longer to think of fixes for bugs and patch them onto Test first.  It still would be nice, though, if there would be two weeks, instead of one, between the last part of a Test Update (so in this case, 16b) and the day it goes live. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that there's not too much they can do about the Test Update/Live Update schedule.  But if there is, that'd be the best solution to getting bugs fixed, I think.</span><div></div>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not allowing chacter coping seem to seriously cripple your ability to have more feedback....</DIV> <DIV>While you are keeping potential trolls out you are also keeping potential and vital asets out. In my opinion the mass negative feedback that is gotten after things hit live is a direct reaction to not enought people testing. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I disagree. We have no lack of feedback from our Test players. They do a fantastic job reporting bugs in game, posting issues on the boards, and communicating with QA while playing. If there is a perceived lack of feedback from them, it's at least partially because the public boards here that are supposed to be dedicated to testing feedback get so clogged with non-tester questions, opinions, and bickering that the genuine posts are soon buried. Even the "requests from the devs" threads get swarmed with so much noise that they tend to quickly lose their value. That's why we have a private tester-only board here, and why the Test server population manages their own external message board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is true that the population on Test can't give feedback on every epic encounter, every Master I spell, and every item drop in the game. While mass copying characters over would give us some of that data, the signal-to-noise ratio would get exponentially worse. And because those copied characters wouldn't be seen by the owners as "real" in the same sense they are on the live servers, some people would see Test as a place to run amok with far less concern over the consequences. You say we could weed out the bad apples as if that is a cost-free solution, but reports of bad behavior would still need to be throroughly investigated and researched. The extensive amount of time required to do that is in short supply, and would ultimately cut into the time that the Test GMs have to actual help the testing process.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test server isn't a playground. It's a real server community where the people who play there dedicate their time not just to advance their characters, but to help us build a better game. The answer to get more people on the server is not to offer unlimited copies, but rather to make the server appeal to more of those who have an interest in lending a hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also want to make clear that when bugs do make it through the Test to Live process, it is seldom because the issue wasn't reported. There have certainly been times where we missed a critical bug report that was sent in, and situations in which we thought we fixed something when we actually didn't. But those cases are our fault, not the testers. They are a community of people who put a lot of heart into what they do, and should receive nothing but appreciation for that effort.</DIV>

[Lady Uaelr]

<P>Thanks for removing the Master spell.</P> <P>We appreciate it.</P> <P>Please infrom your design team that this just made people very upset.</P> <P>Many people are considering whether or not to leave with the 16b changes too.</P> <P>I hope you make an effort to try to help "US" your customers so that we may continue our dedicated relationship with EQ2 and SOE.</P> <DIV>Just a thought - instead of giving away all those useless veteran awards why don't you consider just bringing back the Master spell that was nerfed from the access quest to Shimmering Citadel and leaving the roots for all casters they way they are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THAT WOULD MAKE SOOOOOO MANY PEOPLE HAPPY AND YOU WOULD BE A TRUE HERO.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lady Uaelrea on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:20 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Lady Uaelrea on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:21 PM</span>

[Shantee]

umm removing master spell?  Don't blame test for alot of the nerfs please.  We get as [Removed for Content] bout it as the other players. <span>:smileysad:</span> Thanks for your words moor =)  <div></div>

[CB_Swami]

<P>Thank you for the extremely kind words about the Test community Moorgard.</P> <P> </P> <P>we do try, doesn't always work, but we do try</P>

[Evadne]

Thank you Moorgard. I want to address those of you who do not wish to make a character on Test because they do not wish to start over.: I have met a few of you who did decide to make a character on test despite the dislike of "starting over." A few of those stayed, and started over, finding the community, the relationship to the games development and the general frontier feel to the game provided by Test worth starting over for.  We have an xp bonus, not huge, but enough to account for sudden server drops, lost items, short rollbacks and so on.  We have a community that works together with a QA channel, community channel(many people from live servers join our community channel for the sense of--well, community they get from it.)  We have a private SOE forum and a dedicated QA staff that involves itself in our daily play and feedback.  Our community is GROWING.  But not changing.  Test is a welcoming place for the independent motivated, self reliant player.  Yet it is a social community that appeals to the mature gamer, even the roleplayers out there.  It is not always easy being a tester.  The weeks before the expansions release and the combat changes sorely tested the players and community on the server.  That will happen again I am sure.  SOE like any employer experiences manpower shortages from time to critical time.  But never has one of my emails,  even in the darkest days, gone unanswered by the QA or developement team for more than 24 hours. Do not expect us to ever support the idea of copies to the Test Server.  Moorgard put it eloquently, the signal to noise ratio would get out of hand.  Our community has worked hard for the game and in doing so for ourselves.  We have sacrificed for our community.  It is worth protecting.  So, consider for a moment, it is one of those days when you log in on your home server and experience some frustration, the game still appeals but you cant seem to shed the issue that lead to your having a bad day.  Come, make a character on Test.  Take a  vacation.  Come play the game as I imagine it was meant to be played. Where the world is dangerous because no one has cleared the dungeon ahead of you.  Where the quest can be completed because the mobs are still up.  And when you get that feeling of being all alone, ask around, join the community channels.  Test belongs to all of us, and the community there is being defended heartily for any who wish to be a part of it to join. Xeven Tal'Rhuen  52 Dirge Evadne Tal'Rhuen 50 defiler, 60 Provisioner Guild Leader and Prophet of the Fire Path <Fhir Rhuen> <div></div>

[Silelwen]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zhonata wrote: <div>Not allowing chacter coping seem to seriously cripple your ability to have more feedback....</div> <div>While you are keeping potential trolls out you are also keeping potential and vital asets out. In my opinion the mass negative feedback that is gotten after things hit live is a direct reaction to not enought people testing. <hr> </div></blockquote> <div>I disagree. We have no lack of feedback from our Test players. They do a fantastic job reporting bugs in game, posting issues on the boards, and communicating with QA while playing. If there is a perceived lack of feedback from them, it's at least partially because the public boards here that are supposed to be dedicated to testing feedback get so clogged with non-tester questions, opinions, and bickering that the genuine posts are soon buried. Even the "requests from the devs" threads get swarmed with so much noise that they tend to quickly lose their value. That's why we have a private tester-only board here, and why the Test server population manages their own external message board.</div> <div> </div> <div>It is true that the population on Test can't give feedback on every epic encounter, every Master I spell, and every item drop in the game. While mass copying characters over would give us some of that data, the signal-to-noise ratio would get exponentially worse. And because those copied characters wouldn't be seen by the owners as "real" in the same sense they are on the live servers, some people would see Test as a place to run amok with far less concern over the consequences. You say we could weed out the bad apples as if that is a cost-free solution, but reports of bad behavior would still need to be throroughly investigated and researched. The extensive amount of time required to do that is in short supply, and would ultimately cut into the time that the Test GMs have to actual help the testing process.</div> <div> </div> <div>Test server isn't a playground. It's a real server community where the people who play there dedicate their time not just to advance their characters, but to help us build a better game. The answer to get more people on the server is not to offer unlimited copies, but rather to make the server appeal to more of those who have an interest in lending a hand.</div> <div> </div> <div>I also want to make clear that when bugs do make it through the Test to Live process, it is seldom because the issue wasn't reported. There have certainly been times where we missed a critical bug report that was sent in, and situations in which we thought we fixed something when we actually didn't. But those cases are our fault, not the testers. They are a community of people who put a lot of heart into what they do, and should receive nothing but appreciation for that effort.</div><hr></blockquote>I wanted to add Moor, the problem with test is the small playerbase. During LU#15 I logged in to take screenshots of the updated cobalt stats. This was during primetime during the week and was appauled to do a /who all and it showed 74 players for the entire server, which included my character! Needless to say I realized why we never get any advanced armorer info during updates. I'm just glad I used the link trick and caught the mitigation/resist bug that Beghn was able to patch the day before it went live to regular servers. I would like either a character copy, or 200% exp gain on the test server, and from the launch! There obviously is a reason why so little players play on the one dedicated test server, vs a live server, it's just not beneficial.</span><div></div>

[sundrop]

Dont want to ruin the economy, dont want to ruin this blah blah blah. Thats why you knowingly transfer a whole high level guild over to test right? NO NO NO has nothing to do with the fact they know have like umm 30% of the "in game discoverys now" (cause they get spoonfed over on test) oh yeah must be cause there dedicated. Or just the fact that soe holds there hand and shows them how to complete the new quests and arenas and such. Ive been there, ive seen it. (i believe they are to no benefit, other than to get advance info of new zones and epic quest etc etc; thus the reason they have such a high, LIVE- in game discoveries) now about this "private test forum" i got toons on test, i have /buged for you. Yet i never seen this private forum. Must this be another "special" forum for your hard working guilds that got ported over. Funny, IS the guild "wont say the name" still getting uber rares cause a few know employee's of SOE happen to be in the guild? /end of rant Why lie about it? tell the truth and dont try to pick around the edges. Its like a scab, dont pick at it. Just go right to it and come out with it.  Wont make things better picking around the edges. BTW there is a "claimed" xp bonus on test, cause according to Moorgard thats how all the lvl 60's got to there lvl. (not because they got copied) <div></div>

[ZeroRavesOn]

<span><blockquote><hr>sundrop wrote:Dont want to ruin the economy, dont want to ruin this blah blah blah. Thats why you knowingly transfer a whole high level guild over to test right? NO NO NO has nothing to do with the fact they know have like umm 30% of the "in game discoverys now" (cause they get spoonfed over on test) oh yeah must be cause there dedicated. Or just the fact that soe holds there hand and shows them how to complete the new quests and arenas and such. Ive been there, ive seen it. (i believe they are to no benefit, other than to get advance info of new zones and epic quest etc etc; thus the reason they have such a high, LIVE- in game discoveries) now about this "private test forum" i got toons on test, i have /buged for you. Yet i never seen this private forum. Must this be another "special" forum for your hard working guilds that got ported over. Funny, IS the guild "wont say the name" still getting uber rares cause a few know employee's of SOE happen to be in the guild? /end of rant Why lie about it? tell the truth and dont try to pick around the edges. Its like a scab, dont pick at it. Just go right to it and come out with it.  Wont make things better picking around the edges. BTW there is a "claimed" xp bonus on test, cause according to Moorgard thats how all the lvl 60's got to there lvl. (not because they got copied) <div></div><hr></blockquote>The testers only forums is for people who spend the bulk of their time on the test server, you have to apply and have reccomendations of people who already have access in order to maintain the clarity of the testers ony forum.  Also, there are guild copies to get differing high-end guilds experiences of differing content, this way soe doesnt have to continually maintain Beta servers for things such as splitpaw, or test update changes.  Guild Copies give SoE another lens through which to view content - that of the high end raid guild from live - which does help to stabilize content, without mucking it up with noise from people who are merely ranting based on supposed changes. Its another tool for SoE to fine-tune the game with, and an appropriate one at that.</span><div></div>

[Zhonata]

<P>First of all peopel please dont turn this into a rant or flame.....</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>I disagree. We have no lack of feedback from our Test players. They do a fantastic job reporting bugs in game, posting issues on the boards, and communicating with QA while playing. If there is a perceived lack of feedback from them, it's at least partially because the public boards here that are supposed to be dedicated to testing feedback get so clogged with non-tester questions, opinions, and bickering that the genuine posts are soon buried. Even the "requests from the devs" threads get swarmed with so much noise that they tend to quickly lose their value. That's why we have a private tester-only board here, and why the Test server population manages their own external message board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is true that the population on Test can't give feedback on every epic encounter, every Master I spell, and every item drop in the game. While mass copying characters over would give us some of that data, the signal-to-noise ratio would get exponentially worse. And because those copied characters wouldn't be seen by the owners as "real" in the same sense they are on the live servers, some people would see Test as a place to run amok with far less concern over the consequences. You say we could weed out the bad apples as if that is a cost-free solution, but reports of bad behavior would still need to be throroughly investigated and researched. The extensive amount of time required to do that is in short supply, and would ultimately cut into the time that the Test GMs have to actual help the testing process.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test server isn't a playground. It's a real server community where the people who play there dedicate their time not just to advance their characters, but to help us build a better game. The answer to get more people on the server is not to offer unlimited copies, but rather to make the server appeal to more of those who have an interest in lending a hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also want to make clear that when bugs do make it through the Test to Live process, it is seldom because the issue wasn't reported. There have certainly been times where we missed a critical bug report that was sent in, and situations in which we thought we fixed something when we actually didn't. But those cases are our fault, not the testers. They are a community of people who put a lot of heart into what they do, and should receive nothing but appreciation for that effort.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I aggre that teset is a communtity.  I do appreciate what they do i was not trying to upset or down grade them in any way. I wsa simple stating that it doesnt seem there is enought being found out and i thought more people would help. </P> <P>If what you say is true that bugs, gliches,  and graphics problems are reported and not fixed then this sounds like a man power issue. It sounds like you just simply are overwhelmed and need to have more people on the job. It is one or the other or both. But it is something and you cant denie that. Something is lackign if havign a bigger test population wont fix it then you need a bigger team.  I dont pretend to know which one it is, but then again i shouldnt have to worry about this.</P> <P>My main concern for having more people on test is this. Classes are very unbalnced right now. This is fact, im not going to go into detail cause that will lead to flaming, but it cant be denied. These class unbalancing issues are making it through test server into the live servers (and some still exisist on live) that we as the patrons of those server are expect to just deal with them until the process is repeated. It isnt just simply growing pains we are in fact being used to test these changes. I for one believe things like this shouldnt be happening. These changes should be test on test not live. You are treating us like little toys. At least being on the test server we know what we are getting into and can retreat to live if things go to terriably wrong. On live the only thing we can do is turn off our computers. So to say that the small population of the test server is adiquate to test 90% of the content is not factual. Class balancing and combat changes are the 60% of the game.</P> <P>Again i am not sayign that the people on test are not doing their best, playing the game, reporting the bugs, adn doing a great job at it. But the issues are their and they are making it out. So if these problems liek class balancign are not a population or player problem then they are an team problem and that need to be adressed.</P><p>Message Edited by Zhonata on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:22 PM</span>

[Evadne]

<span><blockquote><hr>sundrop wrote: now about this "private test forum" i got toons on test, i have /buged for you. Yet i never seen this private forum. Must this be another "special" forum for your hard working guilds that got ported over. Funny, IS the guild "wont say the name" still getting uber rares cause a few know employee's of SOE happen to be in the guild? /end of rant Why lie about it? tell the truth and dont try to pick around the edges. Its like a scab, dont pick at it. Just go right to it and come out with it.  Wont make things better picking around the edges. BTW there is a "claimed" xp bonus on test, cause according to Moorgard thats how all the lvl 60's got to there lvl. (not because they got copied) <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sundrop, I did not get copied. Nor did my guild. It was created on Test.  I started there the day the server opened.  Fhir Rhuen, my guild was created within a couple of days of the server opening.  The raid organization is homegrown on Test.  The guilds on Test that are part of the community were CREATED on Test. The guilds they do copy over are there for specific testing, they aren't the community.  They come, do their work and disappear, the server none the worse for wear. You do not have access to the private Testers Only forum because having a "toon" on test and tossing out a bug report does not qualify you.  Period.  These forums serve a valid purpose, not without its own rants and disagreements but all under an umbrella of intent.  Intent to improve the game, not point fingers, not name call, not make accusations.  This expectation is necessary for the forum to work.  So, the high level players on the server are NOT copied over at level 60.   They earned their way there.  Are some of them transfers? Yes, the last transfer (not copy) was done in February. I believe when the characters in question were at best level 30ish--not counting the one 50 who disappeared not long after he arrived. And no one gets spoonfed on Test. It is work, yes fun, but work to test, even for the guilds who do get copied and do specific target testing for the Devs.  They work together, have mastered the art of communication with one another and the development team and are utilized for their PROVEN ability to make a difference and provide valuable input. ~Eva</span><div></div>

[Shantee]

I'm just giving my opinion of what I see on test, due to that is where I play.  The class balancing issues have nothing to do with the testers.  We get the changes, we deal with the changes, there has been a few changes that never made it to live.  Be happy for those.  There are changes we truely hate, and we have to learn to deal with them just like the live server.  We get the updates, so they can test to make sure the server doesnt crash or it have a harsh effect.  Alot of the changes, do not get fine tuned through us.  They watch the numbers, hear the bugs.  Then they decide what they need to do.  If i was the one making the decisions, I'm sure defilers would be over powered <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>  I have stopped playing my defiler due to they are not fun for me to play.  I got tired of having no out put damage, of dying to grey stuff (when we were testing combat changes)  I haven't played her since the changes came out except to heal on Raids.  We have all lvl'd from lvl 1, we raid like other servers.  We have lots of high lvl players now.  Enough to field more than 1 full raid.  Prime time hours are from like 6 to 11pm pst it seems.  Log on at other times and you'll find a lower population.  Not saying we are really high at peak.  We are not alot, but we have fun and enjoy playing as much as the next person.  WE do try to help and put imput as much as we can to help the others.  But we testers we are not SOE and the designers. I just want us all to be friend <span>:smileytongue:</span>  Just think of how many things that do get fixed that live servers never see <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>

[Meadso]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <P>First of all peopel please dont turn this into a rant or flame.....</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>I disagree. We have no lack of feedback from our Test players. They do a fantastic job reporting bugs in game, posting issues on the boards, and communicating with QA while playing. If there is a perceived lack of feedback from them, it's at least partially because the public boards here that are supposed to be dedicated to testing feedback get so clogged with non-tester questions, opinions, and bickering that the genuine posts are soon buried. Even the "requests from the devs" threads get swarmed with so much noise that they tend to quickly lose their value. That's why we have a private tester-only board here, and why the Test server population manages their own external message board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is true that the population on Test can't give feedback on every epic encounter, every Master I spell, and every item drop in the game. While mass copying characters over would give us some of that data, the signal-to-noise ratio would get exponentially worse. And because those copied characters wouldn't be seen by the owners as "real" in the same sense they are on the live servers, some people would see Test as a place to run amok with far less concern over the consequences. You say we could weed out the bad apples as if that is a cost-free solution, but reports of bad behavior would still need to be throroughly investigated and researched. The extensive amount of time required to do that is in short supply, and would ultimately cut into the time that the Test GMs have to actual help the testing process.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test server isn't a playground. It's a real server community where the people who play there dedicate their time not just to advance their characters, but to help us build a better game. The answer to get more people on the server is not to offer unlimited copies, but rather to make the server appeal to more of those who have an interest in lending a hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also want to make clear that when bugs do make it through the Test to Live process, it is seldom because the issue wasn't reported. There have certainly been times where we missed a critical bug report that was sent in, and situations in which we thought we fixed something when we actually didn't. But those cases are our fault, not the testers. They are a community of people who put a lot of heart into what they do, and should receive nothing but appreciation for that effort.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I aggre that teset is a communtity.  I do appreciate what they do i was not trying to upset or down grade them in any way. I wsa simple stating that it doesnt seem there is enought being found out and i thought more people would help.</P> <P>If what you say is true that bugs, gliches,  and graphics problems are reported and not fixed then this sounds like a man power issue. It sounds like you just simply are overwhelmed and need to have more people on the job. It is one or the other or both. But it is something and you cant denie that. Something is lackign if havign a bigger test population wont fix it then you need a bigger team.  I dont pretend to know which one it is, but then again i shouldnt have to worry about this.</P> <P>My main concern for having more people on test is this. Classes are very unbalnced right now. This is fact, im not going to go into detail cause that will lead to flaming, but it cant be denied. These class unbalancing issues are making it through test server into the live servers (and some still exisist on live) that we as the parons of those server are expect to just deal with them until the process is repeated. It isnt just simply growing pains we are in fact being used to test these changes. I for one believe things liek this shouldnt be happening. These changes should be test on test not live. You are treating us like little toys. At least being on the test server we knwo what we are getting into and can retreat to live if thigns go to terriably wrong. On live the only thing we can do is turn off our computers. So to say that the small population of the test server is adiquate to test 90% of the content is not factual. Class balancing and combat changes are the 60% of the game.</P> <P>Again i am not sayign that the people on test are not doing their best, playing the game, reporting the bugs, adn doing a great job at it. But the issues are their and they are making it out. So if these problems liek class balancign are not a population or player problem then they are an team problem and that need to be adressed.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Test server is mainly just the last line of defence against major server wide unintended side effects and bugs which cause crashes and major disturbances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure we do feedback and comment on balancing and general bugs too and often we are asked to test certain effects but this is not our main purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do have a good spread of adventurers & crafters of all classess and levels and can test the combat/game mechanics well enough to find these major bugs and imbalances. I would say we catch alot more major bugs than ever get through. Sorry if spell X is missing from book Y or upgrade B is worse than upgrade A but this is not a major deal and no amount of copied players on a tourist visa to test would would really be helpful in preventing those things from making it to production.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test server could use a few more players, for sure, but they would need to show the same level of commitment and reliability as their curent peers on test which means starting from scratch , learning about the community and building their reputations as solid testers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[sundrop]

sounds understable. so i will take your reply and take the belief. I do have one question, how does one get a toon from lvl 1 to lvl 60 in test with no help? i can say that my toons would not be the lvl they are on live if it was not fro groups. So when i do spend time on test, the player base is so thin (ie very high lvl) that it is almost impossible to group with anyone. SO i ask you this, what is the secret to getting to lvl 60 on test with no help from other peers? <div></div>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sundrop wrote:<BR>sounds understable. so i will take your reply and take the belief. I do have one question, how does one get a toon from lvl 1 to lvl 60 in test with no help? i can say that my toons would not be the lvl they are on live if it was not fro groups. So when i do spend time on test, the player base is so thin (ie very high lvl) that it is almost impossible to group with anyone. SO i ask you this, what is the secret to getting to lvl 60 on test with no help from other peers?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would imagine just grinding would be the answer and lots of quests. </P> <P>The thing is people do group up on test once you have been around a while and build up that reputation. Sure it's tough at first and sometimes you do need to solo alot (mostly in fact). But taking part in /test channel and getting know who is who is key. Once you hit the late 20's you should start finding it easier to get group.</P> <P>Some other things to bear in mind - always read the update notes, to avoid asking those useless questions in /test channel, don't whine about things in the /test channel and don't ask people to make tier 1 items. (all these things will get you short thrift in my experience and close you off from the community). </P>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>sundrop wrote:sounds understable. so i will take your reply and take the belief. I do have one question, how does one get a toon from lvl 1 to lvl 60 in test with no help? i can say that my toons would not be the lvl they are on live if it was not fro groups. So when i do spend time on test, the player base is so thin (ie very high lvl) that it is almost impossible to group with anyone. SO i ask you this, what is the secret to getting to lvl 60 on test with no help from other peers? <div></div><hr></blockquote> We don't do it without groups or without help.  I myself have been grouped almost nonstop for three days, except when crafting.  And that goes for my 52 main as well as my 18 alt. Test has two huge guilds and a wide number of medium and small ones.  Guildmates help each other out.  It's what guilds are for.  Beyond that, the test channel is a great place for finding groups.  Not always, no, and a dedicated Tester knows when and how to solo.  But for example, a group < 20 is not too hard to get, between new members and alts.  Probably where it's the hardest to get things done in a group these days is in the 30s, IMO.</span><div></div>

[Zhonata]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meadsong wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Test server is mainly just the last line of defence against major server wide unintended side effects and bugs which cause crashes and major disturbances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure we do feedback and comment on balancing and general bugs too and often we are asked to test certain effects but this is not our main purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do have a good spread of adventurers & crafters of all classess and levels and can test the combat/game mechanics well enough to find these major bugs and imbalances. I would say we catch alot more major bugs than ever get through.<FONT color=#ffff00> Sorry if spell X is missing from book Y or upgrade B is worse than upgrade A but this is not a major deal and no amount of copied players on a tourist visa to test would would really be helpful in preventing those things from making it to production.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test server could use a few more players, for sure, but they would need to show the same level of commitment and reliability as their curent peers on test which means starting from scratch , learning about the community and building their reputations as solid testers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It is isnt a matter of speel X missing from book Y or upgrade B wores that upgarde A. I could go into a a very long winded paragraph on all of the changes that are unbalanced as of late leaveing class out of wack and new changes that will more than likly go out of whack. I am very positive the new changes to guardian class will help them, but that i wont fix them. The lack of change to the the bruiser class having and obviouse advantage over the rest. The nerf to the beserker class on offense that will undoubtally unbalnce their aggro. These are not small little things that have slipped throug ht the crack these effect every seingle person who plays these individual classes. It effect how the feel about their time spent lvl , and money invest in the game. So like i said these problem are simple little clerical errors these are game KILLING problems.<BR></DIV>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meadsong wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Test server is mainly just the last line of defence against major server wide unintended side effects and bugs which cause crashes and major disturbances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure we do feedback and comment on balancing and general bugs too and often we are asked to test certain effects but this is not our main purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do have a good spread of adventurers & crafters of all classess and levels and can test the combat/game mechanics well enough to find these major bugs and imbalances. I would say we catch alot more major bugs than ever get through.<FONT color=#ffff00> Sorry if spell X is missing from book Y or upgrade B is worse than upgrade A but this is not a major deal and no amount of copied players on a tourist visa to test would would really be helpful in preventing those things from making it to production.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test server could use a few more players, for sure, but they would need to show the same level of commitment and reliability as their curent peers on test which means starting from scratch , learning about the community and building their reputations as solid testers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It is isnt a matter of speel X missing from book Y or upgrade B wores that upgarde A. I could go into a a very long winded paragraph on all of the changes that are unbalanced as of late leaveing class out of wack and new changes that will more than likly go out of whack. I am very positive the new changes to guardian class will help them, but that i wont fix them. The lack of change to the the bruiser class having and obviouse advantage over the rest. The nerf to the beserker class on offense that will undoubtally unbalnce their aggro. These are not small little things that have slipped throug ht the crack these effect every seingle person who plays these individual classes. It effect how the feel about their time spent lvl , and money invest in the game. So like i said these problem are simple little clerical errors these are game KILLING problems.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are talking about one set of opinions of imblances against another ser personal perceptions of those imbalances This cannot be the function of the test server.</P> <P>Let me put it this way - if you can find one server in which every player of class X (say bruiser) can all agree that ability Z is imbalanced compared to the ability or functionality of class Y (say Paladin)  and every player of class Y agrees then you could have the perfect server to test balancing issues. But that will never happen on any server, ever. So why expect this of test server? </P> <P>Test sever is set to up catch major bugs and server stress issues not balancing or consumer perception issues. Thye can only be tested on production.  </P>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meadsong wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are talking about one set of opinions of imblances against another ser personal perceptions of those imbalances This cannot be the function of the test server.</P> <P>Let me put it this way - if you can find one server in which every player of class X (say bruiser) can all agree that ability Z is imbalanced compared to the ability or functionality of class Y (say Paladin)  and every player of class Y agrees then you could have the perfect server to test balancing issues. But that will never happen on any server, ever. So why expect this of test server? </P> <P>Test sever is set to up catch major bugs and server stress issues not balancing or consumer perception issues. Thye can only be tested on production.  </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well the live server is definatly not the place for this either. Live is supose to be for the finished product so that the player base can enjoy it. So i f test isnt the place fo this then a place need to be made... perhaps anotehr server past test. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers being overpower in game is not  just a perception it is factual. The have the their high avoidance, mitigation of a plate tank. cant be stunned stiflied or mezzed, and still have dps. That is clearly unbalanced and is still an issue that hasntt been addressed. I assumed for the longest tiem that it was a bug that their abilty that keep them from beign stunned wasnt supose to work on their mit buff, but leads many of us to wonder why it isnt changed. Yet the guardians have had the shaft for several weeks the beserker are getting nerfed.. again... and this is only in the fighter archtype. </DIV>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well the live server is definatly not the place for this either. Live is supose to be for the finished product so that the player base can enjoy it. So i f test isnt the place fo this then a place need to be made... perhaps anotehr server past test. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers being overpower in game is not  just a perception it is factual. The have the their high avoidance, mitigation of a plate tank. cant be stunned stiflied or mezzed, and still have dps. That is clearly unbalanced and is still an issue that hasntt been addressed. I assumed for the longest tiem that it was a bug that their abilty that keep them from beign stunned wasnt supose to work on their mit buff, but leads many of us to wonder why it isnt changed. Yet the guardians have had the shaft for several weeks the beserker are getting nerfed.. again... and this is only in the fighter archtype. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sure from your point of view that issue is definately imbalanced and shouldn't of made it to live - but do all the bruisers agree? I doubt it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> No one will ever be happy until their class is exactly how they want it to be compared to all other or any other classes. And there can be no universal view of balance. So by your logic then, the game should never be released?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>luckily the devs view of balance is the one we have to deal with and if we don't like it we can play another game equally imbalanced/balanced game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It has to be said that this thread is quickly illustrating the reaosn we do not need copies on test server. Because test server does not need a flood of 'My class is nerfed, bruiser are uber' /feedback getting in the way. Production servers are already in place for that as are these boards. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not allowing chacter coping seem to seriously cripple your ability to have more feedback....</DIV> <DIV>While you are keeping potential trolls out you are also keeping potential and vital asets out. In my opinion the mass negative feedback that is gotten after things hit live is a direct reaction to not enought people testing. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I disagree. We have no lack of feedback from our Test players. They do a fantastic job reporting bugs in game, posting issues on the boards, and communicating with QA while playing. If there is a perceived lack of feedback from them, it's at least partially because the public boards here that are supposed to be dedicated to testing feedback get so clogged with non-tester questions, opinions, and bickering that the genuine posts are soon buried. Even the "requests from the devs" threads get swarmed with so much noise that they tend to quickly lose their value. That's why we have a private tester-only board here, and why the Test server population manages their own external message board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is true that the population on Test can't give feedback on every epic encounter, every Master I spell, and every item drop in the game. While mass copying characters over would give us some of that data, the signal-to-noise ratio would get exponentially worse. And because those copied characters wouldn't be seen by the owners as "real" in the same sense they are on the live servers, some people would see Test as a place to run amok with far less concern over the consequences. You say we could weed out the bad apples as if that is a cost-free solution, but reports of bad behavior would still need to be throroughly investigated and researched. The extensive amount of time required to do that is in short supply, and would ultimately cut into the time that the Test GMs have to actual help the testing process.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test server isn't a playground. It's a real server community where the people who play there dedicate their time not just to advance their characters, but to help us build a better game. The answer to get more people on the server is not to offer unlimited copies, but rather to make the server appeal to more of those who have an interest in lending a hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also want to make clear that when bugs do make it through the Test to Live process, it is seldom because the issue wasn't reported. There have certainly been times where we missed a critical bug report that was sent in, and situations in which we thought we fixed something when we actually didn't. But those cases are our fault, not the testers. They are a community of people who put a lot of heart into what they do, and should receive nothing but appreciation for that effort.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then add a second Test server that allows copies.  Make it a playground.  Give a tool where people can go and explore options and give feedback on encounters and such without disrupting the Test community.<BR>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meadsong wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Sure from your point of view that issue is definately imbalanced and shouldn't of made it to live - but do all the bruisers agree? I doubt it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> No one will ever be happy until their class is exactly how they want it to be compared to all other or any other classes. <FONT color=#ffff00>And there can be no universal view of balance</FONT>. So by your logic then, the game should never be released?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>luckily the devs view of balance is the one we have to deal with</FONT> and if we don't like it we can play another game equally imbalanced/balanced game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>It has to be said that this thread is quickly illustrating the reaosn we do not need copies on test server. Because test server does not need a flood of 'My class is nerfed, bruiser are uber' /feedback getting in the way. Production servers are already in place for that as are these boards.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>-------</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>So if there can be no universal view of balance then why try to balance and archtype. According to you defination it will always be unbalanced from someone percepective. Thus the persuit of balancing the game that the devs have taken in an archtype system was doomed from the start. Fact of the matter is you will only ever have balance when comprimise is met between the diffrent classes and what the devs want. In order for this to happen you actually have to have more than a small population commenting on it. So by your logic the game was should have never been release and abondoned before it started. As it has been clearly stated everyone has a diffrent point of view and they are all just that view, opinions. The only one that really matter are the devs. So what should we do? Sit back and watch the game be torn a sunder. Or try to help and voice or opposition or approval. </FONT></FONT></P> <P>You will never have every single person aggree on and exact subject and that is human nature. WE all have our own opinions, beliefs, and playing style. I think the comment about going to another game is a really bad attitude an i hope this isnt the attitude that the dev's share. That is the exact attitude that doesnt need to be envolved in the balancing process.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>--------</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>I agree the test server doesnt need a flood of people just saying my class is nerfed bruisers are uber /feedback. What the test server does need is people explain why the Bruisers are overpowered, why they think that and how it can be fixed. Whatt the test server needs are people explain why guardians arnt fun to play anymore, and what they think can fix it. What the test server does need is people explaining how lowering the proc rate, damage, and number of target effect by an aoe is going to serious cripple a Beserkers abilty to hold aggro. These are thing that the test server does need if it doesnt already have them. If it does, then why are these things still making it to Live. The only thing this thread has quickly demenstrated is how out of proportion everything get when it comes to talking about balancing classes. Every thread i have seen about this get side tracked and flamed on and right here is no exception. Having the opinion of a small group of peopel that a class is balanced is not valid and you wonder why peopel are having a problem swallowing these horsepills we call Class Balancing ever LU. You need to have positive and negative feedback to obtain neutralitiy. I didnt just state that bruisers were over powered i stated why i thought that like wise for beserkers being aggro nerfed,  I always give the reasoning behind my opinion.</FONT></P> <P>That said..</P> <DIV>AS usual this thread has gotten of subject. I simply wanted to know why cloning wasnt in effect and i got my reason. If you dont want to have cloning on test server that is fine like it has been stated test is for bug ficxing and server stabilty issues. THen SOE need to implement another test server purly for class balancing and let the general public clone to that and keep this constant nerfing and unnerfing out of the live servers. The only way you are going to get a balance that the majority agrees on is to have the majority there to agree on it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My favorite quote</DIV> <DIV>"I can only please one person a day. Today isnt looking good. Tomarrow isnt either."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Feaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shantee wrote:<BR>I know what he is saying.  But if the copying of characters did happen it would shoot our ecomony in the foot.  Things are way less on test than they are on live servers.  We trade items more than sell items.  We would love more ppl on test, but not as copies.  If they come either make them or if you wanted to transfer permantly to test.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Like a lot of people I play on test but not all the time.  Even though Ive been playing there sense right after it started I dont have a high level player because its so hard to get spell upgrades if your not connected to one of the few guilds.   I talked about this with some people on the "test" channel and I was told that  a scholar might make me some if I made all my own sub combines my self and was really nice to the scholar.   I was also told that the brokers and test did not mix.   So what economy are you talking about if being able to get by on test is all about being hooked up with the right people?   At the mid teens Ive discovered its quite difficult to get by using app 2s.   I know I use the market system when Im on test and there are some people who do but not too many.    </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Feawin on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:02 PM</span>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>. If there is a perceived lack of feedback from them, it's at least partially because the public boards here that are supposed to be dedicated to testing feedback get so clogged with non-tester questions, opinions, and bickering that the genuine posts are soon buried. Even the "requests from the devs" threads get swarmed with so much noise that they tend to quickly lose their value. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because those seem to be the only threads where Devs are sharing information on a regular basis....  Other boards rarely, if ever, see any give and take.  It's no wonder that the Test boards get non-tester interference.</P> <P>Like this one  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Meadso]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>AS usual this thread has gotten of subject. I simply wanted to know why cloning wasnt in effect and i got my reason. If you dont want to have cloning on test server that is fine like it has been stated test is for bug ficxing and server stabilty issues. THen SOE need to implement another test server purly for class balancing and let the general public clone to that and keep this constant nerfing and unnerfing out of the live servers. <STRONG>The only way you are going to get a balance that the majority agrees on is to have the majority there to agree on it. </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>My favorite quote</DIV> <DIV>"I can only please one person a day. Today isnt looking good. Tomarrow isnt either."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Which is exactly what we have now - it goes live where the majority play and feedback is garnered from there. People feedback their views and concerns through the appropriate channel and things get changed. </P> <P>A clone server for testing balance issues would just become the busiest server with the most players: in effect a live server. But things would still need to be parsed through test server for those major bugs we talked about earlier otherwise the clone server would be up and down like a yoyo and no one would be able to even log in to test balancing issues. </P> <P>So we come full circle. Test is for bugs. Live is for balancing feedback. </P> <P>And no my attitude is not negative when I say people who don't like the game should quit playing. You and I both seem to want this game to work and love playing it or we wouldn't be having this discussion. But people who do do not enjoy a game do quit playing and this is a form of feedback. Realpolitik</P> <P> <BR></P>

[Nibbl]

<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>Directed at SoE,</P> <P>Other then stability checks the test server has no real purpose. How many balance problems make it to live servers, lots, including LU 13 the big one. If test server was working correctly balance issues would be adjusted there first, with minimal problems making it to live. When issues make it to the live servers and people get use to them they get alienated when they are changed. If updates have to reside on test for 2, 3, or even 4 weeks so be it, as long as it is tested properly. Problem after problem makes it to live, so the big question is why. ONE reason (there are many, wont side track thread) IMO is the lack of characters copies and customer feedback prior to updates being pushed to live.</P> <P>Allowing customers to copy characters would provide more feedback and make it a better game. It might generate more noise as well, but I pay a monthly fee for SoE to filter it out! I still remember a SoE statement prior to the LU13, they had been running internal and beta server tests and everything was looking good and they were happy with the changes. Yea, that is why there has been so many balance updates since LU 13 (plus the upcoming LU 16). LU 13 wasn’t tested properly internally, in beta, or test server. BTW, I’m not blaming the test server population for this, its 100% SoE fault. I don’t agree with SoE philosophy of what a test server should be. When a business sees limited customer feedback as a lower "signal-to-noise ratio" what would one expect?</P></FONT></DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Feawin wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Like a lot of people I play on test but not all the time.  Even though Ive been playing there sense right after it started I dont have a high level player because its so hard to get spell upgrades if your not connected to one of the few guilds.   I talked about this with some people on the "test" channel and I was told that  a scholar might make me some if I made all my own sub combines my self and was really nice to the scholar.   I was also told that the brokers and test did not mix.   So what economy are you talking about if being able to get by on test is all about being hooked up with the right people?   At the mid teens Ive discovered its quite difficult to get by using app 2s.   I know I use the market system when Im on test and there are some people who do but not too many.    </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Feawin on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:02 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sorry, thats a cop-out.  My 46 guard still uses mostly app1 arts, my warden wife is just now getting her level 30 spells upgraded to app4, and she is level 40.  Adepts are given away every Sunday at our Meet & Greet on the TS docks.  We have missed every one of them  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have been there that long, why havent you taken the initiative to level up a crafter that would benifit your class?  Test will give a hand up, we dont give hand outs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Self sufficiency is key on test.  Asking you to make the subs is not our way of being mean, it is our way of saying, we will help you, if you help yourself.  Honestly, is it asking too much?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sunrayn, 46 guard, leader of The Noble Kindred--Test</DIV>

[Kadurm]

Digs up that old beaten dead horse and smacks him one more time in the head before putting him back in the pit.

[Zhonata]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meadsong wrote: <P>Which is exactly what we have now - it goes live where the majority play and feedback is garnered from there. People feedback their views and concerns through the appropriate channel and things get changed. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>My main problem with the system right now is unwated participation. I see your point, if the clone server came up then the live server would dwindle. My problem is that nothing really appears to have changed in a month and a half. Classes are still unbalanced and appear to to be gettign worst in some areas and better in </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>others. Granted this is expect when balancing, but we have no where elese to go when our charater isnt fun to play anymore. The vast majority of people didnt buy the game to test it for the devs. We give the Devs ton and tons of feedback ( you have to sift thru the spam, but trust me it is there). I have been told that they have listened and recorded it. I believe the, but i have no proof. Not a single sujestion in the fighter archtype as been realise, what worst they havnt even explain why. All the people on live percieve is the dreaded LU what is goign to happen, what they will be stuck with for hte next month, and that no one appears to be listening to them.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>The busiest server with the most players: in effect a live server. But things would still need to be parsed through test server for those major bugs we talked about earlier otherwise the clone server would be up and down like a yoyo and no one would be able to even log in to test balancing issues</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Agreed the test server is vitatal i am not trying to say it isnt.  like i said test would be a first line of defense.</FONT></P> <P>So we come full circle. Test is for bugs. Live is for balancing feedback. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>If this is the case. Then the perception and application of the devs action by the population need to be fixed. The dev need to show us more, be even more active than the are now, tell us why we cant do that, why that is a good idea, and seriously explain these changs to us and why they did them and show is they are lsitening to our feedback. Right now alot of us feel like we are throwing darts at a chalkboard here. I know that you guys can only post to so many people perhaps you guys need to hire more pep for this job. If you are going to treat the live server like a testing grounds  then we need to have a somewhat testing grounds relationship here otehrwise this is never going to work.</FONT></P> <P>And no my attitude is not negative when I say people who don't like the game should quit playing. You and I both seem to want this game to work and love playing it or we wouldn't be having this discussion. But people who do do not enjoy a game do quit playing and this is a form of feedback. Realpolitik</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Srry mate that is what it came across to be as. Tuff luck go somewhere else. i dont think this was the way you ment it to come across. Agreed the the worst form of feedback.</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nibblar wrote:<BR><BR> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P> <P>Directed at SoE,</P> <P>Other then stability checks the test server has no real purpose. How many balance problems make it to live servers, lots, including LU 13 the big one. If test server was working correctly balance issues would be adjusted there first, with minimal problems making it <FONT color=#ffffff>to live. When issues make it to the live servers and people get use to them they get alienated when they are changed. If updates have to reside on test for 2, 3, or even 4 weeks so be it, as long as it is tested properly. Problem after problem makes it to live, so the big question is why. ONE</FONT> reason (there are many, wont side track thread) IMO is the lack of characters copies and customer feedback prior to updates being pushed to live.</P> <P>Allowing customers to copy characters would provide more feedback and make it a better game. It might generate more noise as well, but I pay a monthly fee for SoE to filter it out! I still remember a SoE statement prior to the LU13, they had been running internal and beta server tests and everything was looking good and they were happy with the changes. Yea, that is why there has been so many balance updates since LU 13 (plus the upcoming LU 16). LU 13 wasn’t tested properly internally, in beta, or test server. BTW, I’m not blaming the test server population for this, its 100% SoE fault. I don’t agree with SoE philosophy of what a test server should be. When a business sees limited customer feedback as a lower "signal-to-noise ratio" what would one expect?<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Agreed, but stabilty check are vital and test does catch a great deal of the bugs that would have made it to live. As moorguard said if any bugs or glitches make it to live its is the dev fault not the testers for finding them.<BR><BR><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Zhonata on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:45 AM</span>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kadurm wrote:<BR> Digs up that old beaten dead horse and smacks him one more time in the head before putting him back in the pit.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually this time we got a fresh horse. I would like to not kill this one this time rather tame and get it to work <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Nibblar wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P> <P>Directed at SoE,</P> <P>Other then stability checks the test server has no real purpose. How many balance problems make it to live servers, lots, including LU 13 the big one. If test server was working correctly balance issues would be adjusted there first, with minimal problems making it <FONT color=#ffffff>to live. When issues make it to the live servers and people get use to them they get alienated when they are changed. If updates have to reside on test for 2, 3, or even 4 weeks so be it, as long as it is tested properly. Problem after problem makes it to live, so the big question is why. ONE</FONT> reason (there are many, wont side track thread) IMO is the lack of characters copies and customer feedback prior to updates being pushed to live.</P> <P>Allowing customers to copy characters would provide more feedback and make it a better game. It might generate more noise as well, but I pay a monthly fee for SoE to filter it out! I still remember a SoE statement prior to the LU13, they had been running internal and beta server tests and everything was looking good and they were happy with the changes. Yea, that is why there has been so many balance updates since LU 13 (plus the upcoming LU 16). LU 13 wasn’t tested properly internally, in beta, or test server. BTW, I’m not blaming the test server population for this, its 100% SoE fault. I don’t agree with SoE philosophy of what a test server should be. When a business sees limited customer feedback as a lower "signal-to-noise ratio" what would one expect?<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Agreed, but stabilty check are vital and test does catch a great deal of the bugs that would have made it to live. As moorguard said if any bugs or glitches make it to live its is the dev fault not the testers for finding them.<BR><BR><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Zhonata on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:45 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2>I think it is difficult for a small server population with limited time and resources to address balance and game mechanic issues.  Many of these problems are not obvious or in your face and require extensive play time to notice.  Since SoE wont allow copies they need to address these problems a different way.  Getting tired of major balance and class tweaks every LU, it is getting old.  Understand issues will arise from time to time on live, but not all the time.  I guess I’m irritated that the revamp is still under going a revamp.</FONT>

[Kwoung]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nibblar wrote:<BR> <BR><FONT size=2>I think it is difficult for a small server population with limited time and resources to address balance and game mechanic issues.  Many of these problems are not obvious or in your face and require extensive play time to notice.  Since SoE wont allow copies they need to address these problems a different way.  Getting tired of major balance and class tweaks every LU, it is getting old.  Understand issues will arise from time to time on live, but not all the time.  I guess I’m irritated that the revamp is still under going a revamp.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Test Server is not is not designed or meant to "balance" a game. Balance is a long term and every changing process and honestly, for every one person who thinks their class is finally balanced after some changes, there will be at least 10 others who will consider it broken even worst. There is nothing any Test or other server can do to change that.</DIV>

[Feaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Feawin wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Like a lot of people I play on test but not all the time.  Even though Ive been playing there sense right after it started I dont have a high level player because its so hard to get spell upgrades if your not connected to one of the few guilds.   I talked about this with some people on the "test" channel and I was told that  a scholar might make me some if I made all my own sub combines my self and was really nice to the scholar.   I was also told that the brokers and test did not mix.   So what economy are you talking about if being able to get by on test is all about being hooked up with the right people?   At the mid teens Ive discovered its quite difficult to get by using app 2s.   I know I use the market system when Im on test and there are some people who do but not too many.    </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Feawin on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:02 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sorry, thats a cop-out.  My 46 guard still uses mostly app1 arts, my warden wife is just now getting her level 30 spells upgraded to app4, and she is level 40.  Adepts are given away every Sunday at our Meet & Greet on the TS docks.  We have missed every one of them  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have been there that long, why havent you taken the initiative to level up a crafter that would benifit your class?  Test will give a hand up, we dont give hand outs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Self sufficiency is key on test.  Asking you to make the subs is not our way of being mean, it is our way of saying, we will help you, if you help yourself.  Honestly, is it asking too much?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sunrayn, 46 guard, leader of The Noble Kindred--Test</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ok perhaps you can give me some advice then. </DIV> <DIV>I rolled a new iksar a a few days ago and did just fine to the point of lvl 9 then all the sudden Im drowning in resist (with the spell skill at max for the level).     Im even getting 3 in a row risist at times using app 2s on gray mobs and I discovered that a  recomended encounter for an individual that conned white with 1 dog and 2 puppies was impossible.   Should I be bugging this?   Because when they said that the level of your spell ( app, adept, ect ) was going to effect how much resistance you encountered I thought this was the reason for my difficulty.   On another note about 3 weeks ago I was making another dive into playing on test (on a more regular basis) with a rogue and doing very well up to level 15 when again Im drowning in resist and it becomes very difficult.   I just thought the resist vs spell upgrade was being adjusted.    About a month or so ago I decided to counter the issue with my own trade skillers.   Im not a stranger to the trade skill system and have some successful scholars and craftsman on the live servers in ther mid 20s.   For some reason though I have an issue where the skill ups dont seem to be happening.   Thinking that ok I must be doing something wrong again, I consult the "test" forums and the wise and succesful there.   Im ask if Im doing all the things I have already tried and after that nobody seems to know.   So now Im thinking that maybe its an issue with levels.   Perhaps there are some bugs with the teen levels in both adventure levels and trade skills?   The people I talked to had ether leveled their characters some time ago or were character transfers.    I remember back when test was new I had a cleric and a paladin in the 20s.    It didnt seem  to me that I encountered all this resistance and failure back then.   Im a very experenced player with this game and I really want to help out with test.  Its just seems really hard the last few months to get past those dang teens with all the resistance.   Im a very indipendant person and dont ask for hand outs, maybe thats why I didnt know about all this.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On another note my first responce was about the economy that to me seems to be so illusive to me.  Also I didnt even know that there was this regular meet and greet thing as nobody was talking about it on "test".    The thing is that a server economy is based on the broker system and if there is something else going on that requires special information to get in on then is that the server economy?   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW why do you use app 1s when you can just buy app 2s from a merchant?  Is something wrong with the app 2s I dont know about?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think there should be character copies on test ether btw but not because of the ... economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Torali]

Faewin, email Toralu in game and we'll discuss what you need to know about how to find crafters for your needs. Also, the meet and greets are every 2nd sunday about noon PST. :smileyhappy:

[Star]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is true that the population on Test can't give feedback on every epic encounter, every Master I spell, and every item drop in the game. While mass copying characters over would give us some of that data, the signal-to-noise ratio would get exponentially worse. And because those copied characters wouldn't be seen by the owners as "real" in the same sense they are on the live servers, some people would see Test as a place to run amok with far less concern over the consequences. You say we could weed out the bad apples as if that is a cost-free solution, but reports of bad behavior would still need to be throroughly investigated and researched. The extensive amount of time required to do that is in short supply, and would ultimately cut into the time that the Test GMs have to actual help the testing process.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test server isn't a playground. It's a real server community where the people who play there dedicate their time not just to advance their characters, but to help us build a better game. The answer to get more people on the server is not to offer unlimited copies, but rather to make the server appeal to more of those who have an interest in lending a hand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also want to make clear that when bugs do make it through the Test to Live process, it is seldom because the issue wasn't reported. There have certainly been times where we missed a critical bug report that was sent in, and situations in which we thought we fixed something when we actually didn't. But those cases are our fault, not the testers. They are a community of people who put a lot of heart into what they do, and should receive nothing but appreciation for that effort.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps some sort of invite system where the people on test who are giving good bugs could maybe invite people from live and give them one free character copy? It would still decrease the signal to noise (I love that annalogy) a bit but the value of the data might be worth a slight drop. There definately seems to be some stuff with higher end content slipping through the cracks and it seem logical that's due to just not enough testers at that level. Though I have to say, the size and complexity of EQ2 is such that they could test like crazy and bugs would still slip through.

[Mig]

<P>There's a saying that an "ounce of goat is worth a pound of hero."</P> <P> It means, if you have a lot of goats clearing the brush in the forest, you won't need many heros to fight the forest fire when it starts. </P> <P>While there may be reasons to have a stable, permanent community on test, the reasons you give are not good ones. </P> <P>Let's say you build a door. Good QA of the door is not opening and closing it, because that's elementary, whoever built the door should know if it works or not. If your design team is any good, they will know when the door is built if it works as intended or not. (This is called unit testing, and most companies won't even accept a product into QA if the main feature doesn't work.) </P> <P>Good QA will look at the door, and try to go through it while it's still closed. They'll turn the door knob the wrong way. They'll try and open it by pulling at the bottom of it. They'll take one of the hinges off, and see if it still works. </P> <P>Your simply not going to get that when people on test want to play the game as designed. You want troublemakers, you want people exploring the system, and trying to break things. Now if you are unable to collect data well on crashes, exploits, etc, due to "noise"... that is a problem of your reporting tools, and NOT a problem with the concept of testing. (It's disturbing that your suggesting the only way you know about crashes, hangs, data-loss is if someone emails you about it...) </P> <P>If you have a problem with "troublemakers" you really shouldn't care, because it's a test server, and nothing is permanent. What possible trouble could someone cause on test, if the testing system was truly only for testing? </P> <P> If people want a tight community, with GM interaction, and lots of role-playing, that's great. Make a server that charges them 30-50 bucks a month, and hire more GM staff to police it. Check out Simutronic's games for an example of such a business model.</P>

[Kadurm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR> <P>There's a saying that an "ounce of goat is worth a pound of hero."</P> <P> It means, if you have a lot of goats clearing the brush in the forest, you won't need many heros to fight the forest fire when it starts. </P> <P>While there may be reasons to have a stable, permanent community on test, the reasons you give are not good ones. </P> <P>Let's say you build a door. Good QA of the door is not opening and closing it, because that's elementary, whoever built the door should know if it works or not. If your design team is any good, they will know when the door is built if it works as intended or not. (This is called unit testing, and most companies won't even accept a product into QA if the main feature doesn't work.) </P> <P>Good QA will look at the door, and try to go through it while it's still closed. They'll turn the door knob the wrong way. They'll try and open it by pulling at the bottom of it. They'll take one of the hinges off, and see if it still works. </P> <P>Your simply not going to get that when people on test want to play the game as designed. You want troublemakers, you want people exploring the system, and trying to break things. Now if you are unable to collect data well on crashes, exploits, etc, due to "noise"... that is a problem of your reporting tools, and NOT a problem with the concept of testing. (It's disturbing that your suggesting the only way you know about crashes, hangs, data-loss is if someone emails you about it...) </P> <P>If you have a problem with "troublemakers" you really shouldn't care, because it's a test server, and nothing is permanent. What possible trouble could someone cause on test, if the testing system was truly only for testing? </P> <P> If people want a tight community, with GM interaction, and lots of role-playing, that's great. Make a server that charges them 30-50 bucks a month, and hire more GM staff to police it. Check out Simutronic's games for an example of such a business model.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Heh trust me..we got alot of trouble makers on test..I'm one of them..I like to try new things and see just what happens when I do something I think I shouldnt be doing. Nothing like an inquisitor to stir things up during the wee hours of the morning and night.</P> <P> </P>

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zhonata wrote: <div>Well the live server is definatly not the place for this either. Live is supose to be for the finished product so that the player base can enjoy it. So i f test isnt the place fo this then a place need to be made... perhaps anotehr server past test. </div> <div> </div> <div>Bruisers being overpower in game is not  just a perception it is factual. The have the their high avoidance, mitigation of a plate tank. cant be stunned stiflied or mezzed, and still have dps. That is clearly unbalanced and is still an issue that hasntt been addressed. I assumed for the longest tiem that it was a bug that their abilty that keep them from beign stunned wasnt supose to work on their mit buff, but leads many of us to wonder why it isnt changed. Yet the guardians have had the shaft for several weeks the beserker are getting nerfed.. again... and this is only in the fighter archtype. </div><hr></blockquote>This is one of the problems I see on these boards all the time, and it's simply one of misinformation when trying to ascert one's position. This is one of the reasons why a good majority of threads talking about imbalances don't make much impact, because the person(s) arguing the imbalances don't have their facts straight about another class. Also, these threads tend to gloss over the strengths of one class when comparing it to another. To use Zhonata's post as an example. First, Bruisers do not have the mitigation of a plate tank. Period. Second, they can be stunned, stifled, and mezzed, but have abilities to counteract this, with limited duration. Third, their DPS is situational. They do good DPS against a single target, but other classes (Berserker) can out-dps them in encounters with multiple mobs. Some of the Bruiser's attacks rely on them to be in a certain position, for example to the side or behind the mob. Notice there is no mention of Guardian's or Berserker's strenghts in comparison. Both Guardians and Berserker's bring group defensive group buffs to their groups. Both Guardians and Berserker's have better tools for getting aggro back if they should lose it. Both Guardians and Berserker's have better taunts when dealing with multiple mobs. Berserkers can flat out-dps any fighter archtype against multiple mobs. As a Berserker, I realize my strengths, and don't gloss them over in an attempt to argue another class is more powerful then mine, because I understand that my strengths and another class's strenghts come into play in different situations. Yesterday, I went with a group into Hidden Cache. We pulled a group of heroic mobs. I killed the entire encounter before any other person in the group even had a chance to damage the mobs. Can I do that every encounter? No. Could someone use that as an example and scream "Overpowered!!! Nerf, Nerf!". Probably. Not saying there aren't times when a class gets out of balance with other classes. Guardians pre-LU13 were a clear case of this. But you'll have to forgive many of us for simply ignoring a lot of class balance threads when it's clear the person(s) arguing are using straw-man or red herring arguments to support their position.</span><div></div>

[Silverdrop]

<span><blockquote><hr>Migyb wrote:<div></div><p>If people want a tight community, with GM interaction, and lots of role-playing, that's great. Make a server that charges them 30-50 bucks a month, and hire more GM staff to police it. Check out Simutronic's games for an example of such a business model.</p><hr></blockquote> Don't confuse QA staff with GMs. There are no GMs on Test. And the community is tight, not by purposeful design and planning of the server, but a result of the numbers and the general attitude of the type of players who make their permanent home on Test. </span><div></div>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuddar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Well the live server is definatly not the place for this either. Live is supose to be for the finished product so that the player base can enjoy it. So i f test isnt the place fo this then a place need to be made... perhaps anotehr server past test. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers being overpower in game is not  just a perception it is factual. The have the their high avoidance, mitigation of a plate tank. cant be stunned stiflied or mezzed, and still have dps. That is clearly unbalanced and is still an issue that hasntt been addressed. I assumed for the longest tiem that it was a bug that their abilty that keep them from beign stunned wasnt supose to work on their mit buff, but leads many of us to wonder why it isnt changed. Yet the guardians have had the shaft for several weeks the beserker are getting nerfed.. again... and this is only in the fighter archtype. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is one of the problems I see on these boards all the time, and it's simply one of misinformation when trying to ascert one's position. This is one of the reasons why a good majority of threads talking about imbalances don't make much impact, because the person(s) arguing the imbalances don't have their facts straight about another class. Also, these threads tend to gloss over the strengths of one class when comparing it to another.<BR><BR>To use Zhonata's post as an example. First, Bruisers do not have the mitigation of a plate tank. Period. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Actually they can have a little over 3k mit for a short duration...</FONT> </P> <P>Second, they can be stunned, stifled, and mezzed, but have abilities to counteract this, with limited duration. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yeah and your point..... that is what I ment... I didnt mean that at all times.</FONT></P> <P>Third, their DPS is situational. They do good DPS against a single target, but other classes (Berserker) can out-dps them in encounters with multiple mobs. Some of the Bruiser's attacks rely on them to be in a certain position, for example to the side or behind the mob.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Beserkers DPS is situational as well...... bruisers easily out damage us via single targets.</FONT><BR><BR>Notice there is no mention of Guardian's or Berserker's strenghts in comparison.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Because this is not the place for that discustion. Why dont you make a thread a link it.</FONT></P> <P>Both Guardians and Berserker's bring group defensive group buffs to their groups. Both Guardians and Berserker's have better tools for getting aggro back if they should lose it. Both Guardians and Berserker's have better taunts when dealing with multiple mobs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>We may have better tools, but for the most part anytime and everytime aggro is lost nothing short of rescue will get it back and all fighters have that.</FONT></P> <P> Berserkers can flat out-dps any fighter archtype against multiple mobs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>We are supose to that is our defining trait. This is also burst damage. Otherwise our dps is minimal.</FONT></P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <P><BR>As a Berserker, I realize my strengths, and don't gloss them over in an attempt to argue another class is more powerful then mine, because I understand that my strengths and another class's strenghts come into play in different situations.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Like i said this isnt the place to agrue about this. I wasnt glossing over them. Im not argueing this in this thread. You want to argue i will lay it all out on te table somewhere else. Bruisers can and so have the abilty to have 68% avoidance, 3k+ mit, and still very impressive DPS.</FONT> <BR><BR>Yesterday, I went with a group into Hidden Cache. We pulled a group of heroic mobs. I killed the entire encounter before any other person in the group even had a chance to damage the mobs. Can I do that every encounter? No. Could someone use that as an example and scream "Overpowered!!! Nerf, Nerf!". Probably.<BR><BR>Not saying there aren't times when a class gets out of balance with other classes. Guardians pre-LU13 were a clear case of this. But you'll have to forgive many of us for simply ignoring a lot of class balance threads when it's clear the person(s) arguing are using straw-man or red herring arguments to support their position.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Tudd]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Zhonata wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Tuddar wrote: <span> <blockquote> <hr> Zhonata wrote: <div>Well the live server is definatly not the place for this either. Live is supose to be for the finished product so that the player base can enjoy it. So i f test isnt the place fo this then a place need to be made... perhaps anotehr server past test. </div> <div> </div> <div>Bruisers being overpower in game is not  just a perception it is factual. The have the their high avoidance, mitigation of a plate tank. cant be stunned stiflied or mezzed, and still have dps. That is clearly unbalanced and is still an issue that hasntt been addressed. I assumed for the longest tiem that it was a bug that their abilty that keep them from beign stunned wasnt supose to work on their mit buff, but leads many of us to wonder why it isnt changed. Yet the guardians have had the shaft for several weeks the beserker are getting nerfed.. again... and this is only in the fighter archtype. </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>This is one of the problems I see on these boards all the time, and it's simply one of misinformation when trying to ascert one's position. This is one of the reasons why a good majority of threads talking about imbalances don't make much impact, because the person(s) arguing the imbalances don't have their facts straight about another class. Also, these threads tend to gloss over the strengths of one class when comparing it to another.To use Zhonata's post as an example. First, Bruisers do not have the mitigation of a plate tank. Period. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Actually they can have a little over 3k mit for a short duration...</font> </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Yeah, and stunned the whole time. Which means they lose aggro within seconds of using it. Then all that mitigation isn't doing them any good, because the mob is beating on someone else, not them. Doesn't do much for their DPS, either.</font> </p> <p>Second, they can be stunned, stifled, and mezzed, but have abilities to counteract this, with limited duration. </p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Yeah and your point..... that is what I ment... I didnt mean that at all times. </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000">What you meant and what you said are two different things.</font> </font></p> <p>Third, their DPS is situational. They do good DPS against a single target, but other classes (Berserker) can out-dps them in encounters with multiple mobs. Some of the Bruiser's attacks rely on them to be in a certain position, for example to the side or behind the mob.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Beserkers DPS is situational as well...... bruisers easily out damage us via single targets. </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000">First, you pointed of their DPS as a plus. To which I responded it's only a plus in certain situations. Your message directly states that when their DPS is combined with their tanking abilities, it's out of balance. To which I pointed out, your conclusions are flawed because you glossed over not only the negative aspects of their abilities, but also glossed over the positive aspects of Guardians and Berserkers. It could just as easily be said that because of a Berserker's abilities to have great mitigation all the time and great DPS in some situations, they are overpowered in respect to Bruisers. See how that plays both ways? You can't make an argument one class is unbalanced by making it sound like that's the case in all situations and then on top of it ignoring situations in which the tables are turned.</font> </font>Notice there is no mention of Guardian's or Berserker's strenghts in comparison.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Because this is not the place for that discustion. Why dont you make a thread a link it. </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000">If it's not the place for it, then why did you bring it up in this thread at all? How about YOU make a thread, since your the one who brought it up originally in this one.</font> </font></p> <p>Both Guardians and Berserker's bring group defensive group buffs to their groups. Both Guardians and Berserker's have better tools for getting aggro back if they should lose it. Both Guardians and Berserker's have better taunts when dealing with multiple mobs.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">We may have better tools, but for the most part anytime and everytime aggro is lost nothing short of rescue will get it back and all fighters have that. </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000">What can I say, your flat out wrong. If I want aggro back and the person who aggro'd stops what they are doing, aggro snaps back to me in short order. The only time I have trouble getting aggro back is if the person is stupid enough to continue generating aggro. And believe me, I see this in a lot of inexperienced players. They will just keep swinging or nuking away, trying to burn the mob down hoping to kill it before it kills them, in the meanwhile the healers(s) are burning mana trying to save them.</font> </font></p> <p> Berserkers can flat out-dps any fighter archtype against multiple mobs.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">We are supose to that is our defining trait. This is also burst damage. Otherwise our dps is minimal. </font></p><font color="#ff0000">I think your missing the point. Depending on the situation, one fighter's DPS will be "minimal" compared to the others. So contending that one class is unbalanced because in some situations they have great DPS, while out the other side of your mouth attempting to explain away that another class's DPS in some situations is "supposed" to and a "defining trait" is hypocritical.</font> <p>As a Berserker, I realize my strengths, and don't gloss them over in an attempt to argue another class is more powerful then mine, because I understand that my strengths and another class's strenghts come into play in different situations.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Like i said this isnt the place to agrue about this. I wasnt glossing over them. Im not argueing this in this thread. You want to argue i will lay it all out on te table somewhere else. Bruisers can and so have the abilty to have 68% avoidance, 3k+ mit, and still very impressive DPS.</font> </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">If it wasn't the place to argue it, then why did you bring it up in the first place? </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Here's the fallacy in your arguments, straight to the point: Bruisers can't have 68% avoidance, 3k+ mitigation, and impressive DPS *all at the same time*. Your position completely falls apart based on that. Nevermind the extreme drawbacks that some of these abilities have. 3K+ mitigation? Sure, in exchange for being stunned for that entire time. Impressive DPS? Sure, against a single mob. Same as I'm impressive against multiple mobs. </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">So let's rephrase your statement, and just change the class name: </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Berserker's can and do have the ability to have 68% avoidance, 3k+mitigation, and still very impressive DPS. </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">But you cry "That's not true!". Actually, it is. There are things you can do to get your avoidance up to 68%. However, that doesn't mean you can do them all *at the same time*. Same is true of Bruisers, yet you make it out to sound as if they are capable of this at any time without any drawbacks. </font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Don't bother laying it out anywhere else. You've already done an effective job here of either misrepresenting things or ignoring things, don't think you could do much better. </font> Yesterday, I went with a group into Hidden Cache. We pulled a group of heroic mobs. I killed the entire encounter before any other person in the group even had a chance to damage the mobs. Can I do that every encounter? No. Could someone use that as an example and scream "Overpowered!!! Nerf, Nerf!". Probably.Not saying there aren't times when a class gets out of balance with other classes. Guardians pre-LU13 were a clear case of this. But you'll have to forgive many of us for simply ignoring a lot of class balance threads when it's clear the person(s) arguing are using straw-man or red herring arguments to support their position.</p> </span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Tuddar on <span class="date_text">11-08-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:55 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Tuddar on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 AM</span>

[Zhonata]

<FONT color=#33cc00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuddar wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is one of the problems I see on these boards all the time, and it's simply one of misinformation when trying to ascert one's position. This is one of the reasons why a good majority of threads talking about imbalances don't make much impact, because the person(s) arguing the imbalances don't have their facts straight about another class. Also, these threads tend to gloss over the strengths of one class when comparing it to another.<BR><BR>To use Zhonata's post as an example. First, Bruisers do not have the mitigation of a plate tank. Period.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Actually they can have a little over 3k mit for a short duration...</FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Yeah, and stunned the whole time. Which means they lose aggro within seconds of using it. Then all that mitigation isn't doing them any good, because the mob is beating on someone else, not them. Doesn't do much for their DPS, either.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>Last time i talked to a bruiser their abilty to not be stunned/stiffled/ or mezzed canceled that out. So thus they can have 3k mit and not be stunned. So theu dont lose aggro. This abilty is my primary gripe with bruisers. IF they fixed it <STRONG>GREAT </STRONG>good then things are as they should be. Like i said last time i talk to a bruiser tho they could cancel the stunn out.</FONT></P> <P>Second, they can be stunned, stifled, and mezzed, but have abilities to counteract this, with limited duration.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yeah and your point..... that is what I ment... I didnt mean that at all times.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ff0000>What you meant and what you said are two different things.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ff9900>Your right srry. I ment that they have the abilty to not be stunned/ stiffled/ or mezzed.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P>Third, their DPS is situational. They do good DPS against a single target, but other classes (Berserker) can out-dps them in encounters with multiple mobs. Some of the Bruiser's attacks rely on them to be in a certain position, for example to the side or behind the mob.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Beserkers DPS is situational as well...... bruisers easily out damage us via single targets.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ff0000>First, you pointed of their DPS as a plus. To which I responded it's only a plus in certain situations. Your message directly states that when their DPS is combined with their tanking abilities, it's out of balance. To which I pointed out, your conclusions are flawed because you glossed over not only the negative aspects of their abilities, but also glossed over the positive aspects of Guardians and Berserkers. It could just as easily be said that because of a Berserker's abilities to have great mitigation all the time and great DPS in some situations, they are overpowered in respect to Bruisers. See how that plays both ways? You can't make an argument one class is unbalanced by making it sound like that's the case in all situations and then on top of it ignoring situations in which the tables are turned.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Layed out. Bruisers have 68% avoidance, 3k mit *(short duration), and cant be stunned stifled or mezzed ( short duration). They also have outstanding single target dps. This factor combind allow them to absorb as much damage, avoid far more damage, and do the same damage as me in offense stance. I on the other hand can either be in offensive stance with very little avoidance doing equal damage, equal single target better multiple target aggro or defense stance with still 18% less avoidance far below their DPS and my aggro for single and multiple targets suffer a great deal. My point is i have to trade of defense for offense tanking abilty for aggro control and they do not. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><BR>Notice there is no mention of Guardian's or Berserker's strenghts in comparison.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Because this is not the place for that discustion. Why dont you make a thread a link it.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ff0000>If it's not the place for it, then why did you bring it up in this thread at all? How about YOU make a thread, since your the one who brought it up originally in this one.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ff9900>I was using it as and example and my statement above in previous threads that when any kinda of balancing issue is mentioned some one will take the thread of subject off topic to argu about it. I.E. <STRONG>YOU</STRONG></FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P>Both Guardians and Berserker's bring group defensive group buffs to their groups. Both Guardians and Berserker's have better tools for getting aggro back if they should lose it. Both Guardians and Berserker's have better taunts when dealing with multiple mobs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>We may have better tools, but for the most part anytime and everytime aggro is lost nothing short of rescue will get it back and all fighters have that.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ff0000>What can I say, your flat out wrong. If I want aggro back and the person who aggro'd stops what they are doing, aggro snaps back to me in short order. The only time I have trouble getting aggro back is if the person is stupid enough to continue generating aggro. And believe me, I see this in a lot of inexperienced players. They will just keep swinging or nuking away, trying to burn the mob down hoping to kill it before it kills them, in the meanwhile the healers(s) are burning mana trying to save them.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ff9900>Hehe, srry made me laugh for a secound. Only time u lose aggro is when you lose postion in the hate lvls (hince why rescue raises you automatically 2 lvls). Normally when you lose and add you have been knocked down 3-4 lvls below the number 1 slot.  Now granted a single person can occupy more than one slot, but the odds are if their are any other DPS in the group they are above you as well. So in order to gain aggro back you must take number 1 slot again. Which means fighting thru possibly 2-3 people to regain aggro. Majority of the time by the time u  this ( i.e. taunting and attacking with ca's) the person is dead. THe best and easyiest way to regain aggro is rescue secound best is very high dmaage attack and alot of single target DPS. Very very best is to have dps they can control themselves :smileyvery-happy:</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P> Berserkers can flat out-dps any fighter archtype against multiple mobs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>We are supose to that is our defining trait. This is also burst damage. Otherwise our dps is minimal.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I think your missing the point. Depending on the situation, one fighter's DPS will be "minimal" compared to the others. So contending that one class is unbalanced because in some situations they have great DPS, while out the other side of your mouth attempting to explain away that another class's DPS in some situations is "supposed" to and a "defining trait" is hypocritical.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Not really. Bruisiers are supose to have great single target DPS ( this was never my complaint). First off all how useful is single target DPS vs. Multiple target DPS. Lets see which one gets used more. Well SIngle target DPS can be applied in every situation, while multple target dps requires.... Multiple targets. The application of single target dps vs multiple target dps the Single target DPS over time is going to turn our about equal as my multiple target dps or higher. it is all depending on the groups we are fighting. IF we fight all single targets then the bruiser is going to toast me in DPS. IF we fight all multiple target encounter i will toast the buiser in DPS. What about the guardian his DPS always sucks. My argument was never that bruiser are unblanced because of thier DPS it was unbalanced, because they have DPS, 3k mit ( short duration), 68% avoidance, a can keep from being stunned stifled or mezzed ( short duration). All of thsoe component to gether make them inbalanced. Bruisers were alwasy intended to have dps.</FONT><BR></P> <P>As a Berserker, I realize my strengths, and don't gloss them over in an attempt to argue another class is more powerful then mine, because I understand that my strengths and another class's strenghts come into play in different situations.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Like i said this isnt the place to agrue about this. I wasnt glossing over them. Im not argueing this in this thread. You want to argue i will lay it all out on te table somewhere else. Bruisers can and so have the abilty to have 68% avoidance, 3k+ mit, and still very impressive DPS.</FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>If it wasn't the place to argue it, then why did you bring it up in the first place?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ff9900>It was and example.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Here's the fallacy in your arguments, straight to the point: Bruisers can't have 68% avoidance, 3k+ mitigation, and impressive DPS *all at the same time*. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I found a flaw in your argument. Yeah they can.... and they also can avoid being stunned/ stilfed/ or mezzed.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Your position completely falls apart based on that. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Hehe..... /sigh</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Nevermind the extreme drawbacks that some of these abilities have. 3K+ mitigation? Sure, in exchange for being stunned for that entire time. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Like i said last time i talk with a bruiser their abilty to not be stunned/stifle/ mezzed canceled out that effect. So unless they fixed that then my stance still holds. IF they did fix that then im worng and im actually very glad it was fixed. but as it stand until proven other wise they can have 3k mit ( short duration ) without behing stunned.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Impressive DPS? Sure, against a single mob. Same as I'm impressive against multiple mobs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ff9900>We never my complaint.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>So let's rephrase your statement, and just change the class name:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ff9900>Say uh?</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Berserker's can and do have the ability to have 68% avoidance, 3k+mitigation, and still very impressive DPS.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ff9900>No they cant. Max avoidance a Beserker can have self buffed is 50% +/- a little bit. Even that is about to change with the upcoming patch where 2 of our avoidance buffs become mitigation buffs. 3k mit true. Our impressive dps is at the cost of defense. In order for us to have our DPS we must sacrifice our avoidance, resistance, and some defense. This is due to being in offesive stance. We never ever have the best of all 3 worlds, srry to say. WE can however at seperate times have 2 our of 3. Not that bad.</FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>But you cry "That's not true!". Actually, it is. There are things you can do to get your avoidance up to 68%. However, that doesn't mean you can do them all *at the same time*. Same is true of Bruisers, yet you make it out to sound as if they are capable of this at any time without any drawbacks.</FONT></P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ff9900>Wow. Lile what . I would really like to know what i can do to have a 68% avoidance even for 30 sec. BTW bruisers avoidace fully self buffed is 68%. They can do that every time no matter what without potions, totems, or other player buffs. When i asked the bruiser what his stats were fully self buffed he said," 68% avoidance, 3206 mitigation," Then he proceded to tell while this is on he can pop of about 300 dps or more.  I ask him how. He said his abilty to not be stunned/ stiffled/mezzed canceled out is stunn on his mit buff. My argument with bruisers has always been that they have the best of all 3 world: Mit, avoidance, and dps. </FONT> <P><BR></P></FONT> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Don't bother laying it out anywhere else. You've already done an effective job here of either misrepresenting things or ignoring things, don't think you could do much better.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Nope guess not you sure told me. :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Like i said unless they have fixed thier abilty to cancel out the stunn on their mitigation buff then my argument still holds fast that bruisers are over powered and unbalanced. I would actually prefer to be told i was wrong about this, but considering what i have been told and seen i doubt it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT><BR>Yesterday, I went with a group into Hidden Cache. We pulled a group of heroic mobs. I killed the entire encounter before any other person in the group even had a chance to damage the mobs. Can I do that every encounter? No. Could someone use that as an example and scream "Overpowered!!! Nerf, Nerf!". Probably.<BR><BR>Not saying there aren't times when a class gets out of balance with other classes. Guardians pre-LU13 were a clear case of this. But you'll have to forgive many of us for simply ignoring a lot of class balance threads when it's clear the person(s) arguing are using straw-man or red herring arguments to support their position.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

[JuJut]

<P>Earlier in this thread moorguard posted</P> <P><STRONG>"If there is a perceived lack of feedback from them, it's at least partially because the public boards here that are supposed to be dedicated to testing feedback get so clogged with non-tester questions, opinions, and bickering that the genuine posts are soon buried. "</STRONG></P> <P>This thread is now a perfect example.</P>

[Zhonata]

Agreed. Well posted. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Fire&ice]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kadurm wrote:<BR> Digs up that old beaten dead horse and smacks him one more time in the head before putting him back in the pit.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>QFE   <IMG src="http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/7688/horse3kp.gif">  Poor, poor horsey /sigh :smileysad:

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>JuJutsu wrote:<p>Earlier in this thread moorguard posted</p> <p><strong>"If there is a perceived lack of feedback from them, it's at least partially because the public boards here that are supposed to be dedicated to testing feedback get so clogged with non-tester questions, opinions, and bickering that the genuine posts are soon buried. "</strong></p> <p>This thread is now a perfect example.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yep. I like how Zhonata throws in her little bit earlier in the thread about Bruisers being unbalanced, and then according to her, I'm the one derailing the thread, lol. True enough, I got off-topic and probably should have let sleeping dogs lie, but her assertions just crack me up.</span><div></div>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuddar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JuJutsu wrote:<BR> <P>Earlier in this thread moorguard posted</P> <P><STRONG>"If there is a perceived lack of feedback from them, it's at least partially because the public boards here that are supposed to be dedicated to testing feedback get so clogged with non-tester questions, opinions, and bickering that the genuine posts are soon buried. "</STRONG></P> <P>This thread is now a perfect example.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yep. I like how Zhonata throws in her little bit earlier in the thread about Bruisers being unbalanced, and then according to her, I'm the one derailing the thread, lol. True enough, I got off-topic and probably should have let sleeping dogs lie, but her assertions just crack me up.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First of all i am guy........ lol and as i said it was an example refering to simple things that get thru test that we must be dealt with on live that unbalance the archtypes and that have yet to be fixed. Used this way it was not intent to be argue over in<STRONG> this</STRONG> thread. I was simply makign a point. You are the one who decided to take this thread into a debate where as not even adressing the OP discussion. Thus you derail the thread, <STRONG>end of story</STRONG>.</P> <P>You are they one who decided to make an argument out of and example. I wont be revisiting this thread, so continue on arguing just to argue.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Zhonata on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:42 PM</span>

[Tudd]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Zhonata wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Tuddar wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> JuJutsu wrote: <p>Earlier in this thread moorguard posted</p> <p><strong>"If there is a perceived lack of feedback from them, it's at least partially because the public boards here that are supposed to be dedicated to testing feedback get so clogged with non-tester questions, opinions, and bickering that the genuine posts are soon buried. "</strong></p> <p>This thread is now a perfect example.</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Yep. I like how Zhonata throws in her little bit earlier in the thread about Bruisers being unbalanced, and then according to her, I'm the one derailing the thread, lol. True enough, I got off-topic and probably should have let sleeping dogs lie, but her assertions just crack me up.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>First of all i am guy........ lol and as i said it was an example refering to simple things that get thru test that we must be dealt with on live that unbalance the archtypes and that have yet to be fixed. Used this way it was not intent to be argue over in<strong> this</strong> thread. I was simply makign a point. You are the one who decided to take this thread into a debate where as not even adressing the OP discussion. Thus you derail the thread, <strong>end of story</strong>.</p> <p>You are they one who decided to make an argument out of and example. I wont be revisiting this thread, so continue on arguing just to argue.</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Zhonata on <span class="date_text">11-09-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:42 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Given that you've posted in half a dozen places about Bruisers being unbalanced, etc etc, you'll have to forgive me if I don't believe your assertions that you were "simply trying to make a point". What you were trying to do is slip your contentions into yet another thread, which is exactly what you did. You could have very easily made your point without references to specific classes and such. But you chose not to do that. Saying that Berserkers are being "nerfed again" and such has nothing to do with the OP's thread. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't believe your explanations of moral high ground. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. End of Story, and my last post on this thread. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tuddar on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:21 PM</span>