Problems with heroic qty/mapping and...

[Kingm]

I am starting to question the qty and mapping of heroic mobs along with the current con system.Let’s begin with qty and mapping of heroic mobs. In other games I have observed that developers put hard mobs in a specific location, and then as you move outward from that location you find that there is a gradual reduction in the difficulty of that type of mob. In some areas of EQ2 this structure has been applied yet in most cases you find heroics just randomly placed. This is particularly true in lower level zones. Furthermore the qty of heroics easily outnumbers the number of groups in this game. I think pre combat update this was not such a large issue as all classes had some chance of beating a heroic mob.After the combat update there was a clear distinction between heroic and non heroic mob difficulty. However the number of heroic mobs out in the game-world was too high given their difficulty. I think SOE came to this realisation which is why the difficulty of some heroics was adjusted in a recent patch.Now that the tinkering has started again you have mobs that are definitely group based and others that are somewhat group based - so the distinction is again becoming skewed as heroic no longer means group exclusive.Because the con system cannot be used to judge a quests difficulty how do you decide what size of group is needed for a heroic quest? Now assuming that there are also too many heroic quests for the number of medium-full groups in the game, I can only assume this area also needs fixing. Increasing XP was a logical move and may entice more full groups to cover the heroic quest problem, however it does not overcome the physical constraint of a lack of groups caused by a limited player base.I think given the quantity of heroics in the game, and how they are embedded in quests, they should have been left as an intermediate challenge for good solo players and small groups. You then create a new classification of mobs that are specifically designed for groups, NO EXCEPTIONS and put them in specific, well-thought out locations rather than have them littering the entire game-world sitting largely idle.I also understand that players need to feel the threat of being killed... However I think guaranteed death in random areas of the game seems odd. For example I am all for a player being crushed in permafrost(without a group), however in most areas of the Commonlands heroics should only give you a hell of a fight - not guaranteed death unless you run. There is a time and place to put the fear of god into players... Maybe a single roaming heroic would be sufficient to put some danger into solo areas.As for quests I am not sure how you fix that problem without creating a new classification scheme or combing 1000+ quests to reduce the number of excessive heroics on offer. The XP boost was logical but as I mentioned I don't think it overcomes population constraints.Anyhow feel free to disagree or agree. I am only providing an opinion.P.S. I also forgot to mention that I think the spread of heroics is making grouping harder. By spreading heroics, people don't congregate in specific areas for group based hunting. When you dont have people with similar desire (to group) congregating, you don't have the critical mass necessary to make grouping effective (unless your overall population is very large).<p>Message Edited by Kingman on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:07 AM</span>

[EtoilePirate]

Some interesting points. I remember when my main was in her teens, leveling in the Commons, there was a big bloody griffon that would occasionally pop, swoop down from the sky, and kill me very, very dead.  My alt hasn't encountered it at all... wonder if he's still around?  That's what I thought of with your "single roaming heroic" idea, hehe. The thing is, I don't think there's any way SOE can win here.  When they remove the majority of heroic content from an overland area, people complain that the game is "dumbed down" and "discouraging grouping."  When they put heroic content into an overland area, people complain that the game is "unneccesarily difficult" and "discouraging soloing."  The balance is excruciatingly difficult to maintain, I think. For the record, there are some classes that never could handle a heroic encounter alone, except perhaps a very, very green one, and that with luck.  But this is not really about that. Nothing should be guaranteed.  When you don't know how many people to bring, what's wrong with a little trial and error?  If you've got three people, throw three people at the problem.  If you get your butts handed to you, try 5 or 6 next time.  I had a really good group last night, and 6 of us brought down a green-blue (10-level range in the group) Epic x2.  We were figuring we might get our butts handed to us but we gave it a try anyway.  It was nice to have a little adventure in the game, hehe. I guess I'm just not sure what you're actually asking for.  A reduction in overland heroic content, back to the way it was in, say, August?  Or relocation of heroic mobs to certain avoidable locations?  Personally, I do a great deal of soloing but I think it's fair to have, say, 30% heroics in a mainly solo area -- provided that the smart and careful adventurer can come up with a way to work around them. Required mobs for quests are a different matter.  Sometimes it is very frustrating to find that what you thought would be an easy quest requires mobs that only spawn as one member in a group of four, or as a ^^ single target.  (And sometimes you take your alt to go get a level 17 writ only to find that it's in the bowels of totally-heroic Fallen Gate, where the level 40 ones are in an easy, non-aggro beach area.)  Sometimes "heroic" quests make sense, and sometimes they don't... but I think that, unfortunately, that's probably something that should be looked at on a quest-by-quest basis. <div></div>

[Dasein]

Check out zones like Sinking Sands, Clefts of Rujark or Living Tombs to see how solo and group content can be well integrated.

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:<div></div>Check out zones like Sinking Sands, Clefts of Rujark or Living Tombs to see how solo and group content can be well integrated.<hr></blockquote> Mmm.  I love the Clefts of Rujark, it's one of my favorite zones in DoF.  I've loved Living Tombs, too, but more for gouping. I also liked some of the Splitpaw solutions, actually, where a single zone had both group and solo/duo paths.  Like the upper tunnels. Those are good examples, though.  The Sinking Sands has safe paths and easily accessible solo mobs, but also large groups of heroic mobs, and a fair share of Epics.  It would be nice if they could go back and rework some old-world zones on that model.  Though the geography doesn't allow it as much.  In someplace like Nek or TS, the geographic barriers are absolute (mountains) as opposed to usable (dunes).</span><div></div>

[Kingm]

SS seems more logically mapped out - maybe because they had learnt from previous mistakes or because it was developed knowing that the heroic system was about to be altered.A lot of areas in the original game are just wrong.If people want to complain that removing idle content will reduce the groupability of this game.. I really don't know what to say.Even in WoW people do group despite what others say. You have elite quests that are restricted to specific areas and people basically congregate in these areas and look for teams to go in and take out the elite enemy. They have not put elite mobs in every corner of the game - it has improved atmopshere as people turn up at similar locations.Granted as we have said, SS and various zones such as CT perma seem ok, but you just diminish the value of these places when you throw heroics across the entire gameworld.

[Prufro]

As someone who plays this game to only group, and never solo, i find there to be way too much solo content and not enough group content. Sinking sands is huge, just like TS and antonica, and those zones have a good mix of solo and heroic content just as SS does.  But almost every other zone has just enough heroic content to find 1-2 camp spots worth doing for a level or two in the entire world, and it takes a while to find them.  If you want to solo there are solo mobs all over the place. If you're looking for it you're not going to find it, this always seems to be the case.  Please, as someone who never solos and only groups, i want to plead that SOE does not remove the number of heroics that are currently in the game, and i feel there are not enough as it is. <div></div>

[Kingm]

<div></div>I wouldn't want them to reduce the qty of heroics so that D > S. Not even close. I am just trying to find out what the real utilisation of heroics is in some regions of the game. How can you claim that there is currently a shortage of heroics when most of the heroic mobs on the server seem to sit idle? In Sinking Sands this is not really a problem... However in the original world... There are idle heroics EVERYWHERE and hardly enough players to support them. Is this game all about post 50 now? How bout tweaking it for new players and those rolling alts? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kingman on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:02 AM</span>