Harclave Change... spoilers encouraged?

[Trebla]

<DIV>Edit: Topic name changed to differentiate from existing theads</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-------------------------</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>*** The Splitpaw Saga ***<BR><BR></FONT></STRONG>- Gladiator's Triumph, Arena of Heroes, Acts of War, and Brutal Acts of War now provide rewards if the creatures within con green or higher to your character.<BR><STRONG><EM><U>- Sarchel the Storyteller will now only offer the Trial of Harclave quest to each adventurer once per level.</U></EM></STRONG><BR>--------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mind you, Harclave may be too rewarding as it is...  but this seems extreme.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I've done Harclave once...  died to the second gnoll because it roamed too close while I was finishing off the first one.  (Or maybe third/second, not sure exactly).  I was in the instance for a total of about 3 minutes.  I didn't know what to expect.  Hell, if I have the same experience in there next time, I'll have a total of three minutes in the instance next level...  In a good month, I gain maybe 3 levels.  This only gives me three learning experiences per month and in that time, I've probably forgotten a lot about it if I can't retry shortly.  Am I never supposed to beat Harclave?  Suppose I fail for the final time at 60, then what?  I write that zone off as being something that's locked to me that I can never do?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would much rather see the experience and drops nerfed to trivial rather than have content locked away from me.  I can't say I like that happening in any instances, but especially not one that I simply can't retry, at least with locked zones I can beg for chest loot rights for the key piece.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize some people know the zone by heart and can go through with their eyes closed, but this makes the learning curve too steep for those who don't.</DIV><p>Message Edited by TreblaBB on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:36 PM</span>

[Kizee]

<DIV>you could have posted this in one of the other 2-3 threads on the front page instead of starting another :p</DIV>

[Trebla]

<DIV>In all fairness the existing threads...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a) don't deal directly with this issue</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>b) have unintelligible names.  "It finally happened..."  W-T-F does that have to do with Harclave?</DIV><p>Message Edited by TreblaBB on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 PM</span>

[Meryddian]

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=32579 <span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote<div>-------------------------</div> Re: It Finally Happened......   [ NEW ]      Options            Options       Moorgard Game Designer Posts: 1268 Registered: 11-07-2004 Moorgard Reply 16 of 97 Viewed 3119 times         <i>    Nephiere wrote:     What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.</i> We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.   The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."   In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.   The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with? Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.   Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.   As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it. =========================== Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard Game Designer, EverQuest II <hr></blockquote></span> <div></div>

[Seregfe]

Verry funny this one. I never spend much time there but SOE now removes harclave and this i hate. Once / lev? Really ? Sweet! Would call it then the most useless zone ever ...  i spend money for it but THIS is unimportant  too. "<span> Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all." Veerrry funny </span><span>Moorgard ... That IS what you and your ...well, colleagues LIKE to do.  You are a liar. And i never  would believe any word that comes from you.  Thank you. </span>

[Tockl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seregfear wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR><BR>That IS what you and your ...well, colleagues LIKE to do.  You are a liar. And i never  would believe any word that comes from you.  Thank you.<BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You and my 6-year-old should have a melodramatics contest. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Redlan]

Agree

[Trebla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meryddian wrote:<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=32579" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=32579</A><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>(snip for the sake of space)</P> <P>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>Thank you for linking and quoting a post that had absolutely nothing to do with the topic in this thread.  It had nothing to do with the "casual" player...  it was about learning the zone your first time through.</P> <P>Would it be acceptable to have a raid target that you could only attempt once per level while you're trying to learn it, then if you don't manage to learn it before you cap out...  too bad so sad?  I'm not concerned that you can't get good exp and loot by solo'ing...  you shouldn't be able to.  I'm concerned that this discourages attempting to have fun...  now if I want to be sure I'll ever be able to beat the zone, I need to find some spoiler and completely ruin my fun of learning it.  Sure, I don't <EM>have</EM> to beat the zone, but it's a fairly standard step in the Splitpaw progression, and one that a lot of people seem to think is immense fun.</P>

[MyTFlyGuy]

I believe you can go down there more than once per level you just can't get tehe Quest more than once per level right ?? Or does that mean you can't get in there without the quest ? <div></div>

[BrickyardRac]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MyTFlyGuy wrote:<BR>I believe you can go down there more than once per level you just can't get tehe Quest more than once per level right ?? <BR><BR><BR>Or does that mean you can't get in there without the quest ? <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are incorrect.</P> <P>I have not completed Harclaves yet (just got Splitpaw and haven't completely gained trust for the recall shard).  I went in to Harclaves for the first time yesterday, and after about 15 minutes (had 5 braziers lit), I had a lag spike and got 2 adds to my current encounter.  Didn't survive.</P> <P>Outside, I no longer "met the requirements" to enter.  Had to re-get the quest.  If this had been after the coming update, I would have to gain a level to go back in.  Which means (I think), I'd have to leave the Den to level, and then re-do the annoying upper tunnels to get back down to the Den to get back into Harclaves.</P> <P>(I have completed Flitch's Prank, Outer Grotto (Hot Water), and the Group Arena, but apparantly the Group Arena doesn't count for Trust.  I am having a horrid time with the Champion, and am not sure if I need to complete BOTH Harclaves and the Solo Arena for Trust, or if the Outer Grotto quest counts towards Trust.  If I have to do BOTH Harclaves and the Solo Arena for Trust, and this change goes live (once per level for Harclaves), I'm gonna be [Removed for Content]...plan on giving Solo Arena another try tonight, but I'm 0 for 4 vs the Champion - gotten to him each time - twice at level 25, twice at level 26, as a Defiler.  But this time I have some activatables that hopefully push me over - I run out of power with him in orange health and I'm green...and then I eventually die.)</P>

[Rambling Diatri]

<DIV> Figure I'll clarify how this currently works on test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If you die with out getting the ark opened you end up with a short lock out but do have to listen to the storyteller to get the quest again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If you die after getting the ark opened but before completing the zone and sitting on the throne, you will be locked out for 4 hours, and once again would have to listen to the story teller to get the quest again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If you finish the zone, you must wait until the next level to get the quest again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Not sure if this will change, but will assume that it will become plain old give the quest only once per level. As it stands someone could very easily clear the entire zone, not finish the quest, zone out, wait the four hours and clear it again. Basically as many times as they felt like clearing it a level, they could.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rambling Diatribe wrote:<div> Figure I'll clarify how this currently works on test.</div> <div> </div> <div> If you die with out getting the ark opened you end up with a short lock out but do have to listen to the storyteller to get the quest again.</div> <div> </div> <div> If you die after getting the ark opened but before completing the zone and sitting on the throne, you will be locked out for 4 hours, and once again would have to listen to the story teller to get the quest again.</div> <div> </div> <div> If you finish the zone, you must wait until the next level to get the quest again.</div> <div> </div> <div> Not sure if this will change, but will assume that it will become plain old give the quest only once per level. As it stands someone could very easily clear the entire zone, not finish the quest, zone out, wait the four hours and clear it again. Basically as many times as they felt like clearing it a level, they could.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> But, it is far more reasonable to those who have never finished it to be able to get the quest again if they die without completing it. Maybe there needs to be a flag for completing it and at that point you can only get it once per level.  It won't solve the issue of farming it 100%, but a lot moreso than anything else. The biggest problem, though, was making a monty haul type zone at all for XP and drops.  On the one hand it makes a great.. boon..on the other hand.. it induces MUDflation all that sooner.  To make other zones equal to Harclaves means making them soooo much better that they make anything before worthless (and drive the economy even more out of whack). In EQ1, there were always people looking for the "correct" path for leveling, the fastest XP, and then you would have everyone congregating on that "path" and decrying how linear the game was... Even though no one twisted their arm to make them -only- go to those zones (and some were even easier XP or better drops, just totally unnoticed). In SWG, there were always people looking for the "correct" profession mix to maximise their killing while minimising any downsides, and then everyone decried how much everyone looked alike and fought alike.  And no one required anyone to take up thus and so profession. In EQ2, there are people who whine and complain about how linear the game is and how they have to do thus and so in a particular pattern even though there are several zones they don't even touch... All because someone else says "THIS is the way" even though there are a lot of other options.  Harclaves was waaaaaaay over balanced if it was seen so much as THE mecca... but it should have been changed while it was still in its own beta or even shortly after its release.  Damage has already been done. *gets off her soapbox* </span><div></div>

[Schirf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rambling Diatribe wrote:<BR> <DIV><EM>Figure I'll clarify how this currently works on test.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM> If you die with out getting the ark opened you end up with a short lock out but do have to listen to the storyteller to get the quest again.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM> If you die after getting the ark opened but before completing the zone and sitting on the throne, you will be locked out for 4 hours, and once again would have to listen to the story teller to get the quest again.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM> If you finish the zone, you must wait until the next level to get the quest again.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM> Not sure if this will change, but will assume that it will become plain old give the quest only once per level. As it stands someone could very easily clear the entire zone, not finish the quest, zone out, wait the four hours and clear it again. Basically as many times as they felt like clearing it a level, they could.<BR></EM> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If this is what's being implemented (what's currently on test) than I'm very happy with the change!  If it's a flat once-per-level then I'm not.  I was thinking a once-per-level <STRONG>after</STRONG> you've completed it for trust would be a good solution.</DIV>

[Quijonsith]

<div></div>Why not just give it a couple days lock out like some of the raid content?  The example stated above about learning how to beat epics brought this to mind. Edit:  Better yet, couple days lockout or once per level, which ever is shorter. It just occured to me that in the 20's one could easily gain a level in a day.  sometimes twice in one day (even in the 30's i did that once duo'ing.) <div></div><p>Message Edited by Quijonsith on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:02 AM</span>

[Aienaa]

<P>What would making it to where a player was only locked out, for the remainder of the level, after fully completing (clicking the chair at the end) it do?  </P> <P>It would do absolutly nothing...  You would still be able to farm the zone for exp / cash drops, just as long as you did not click the chair at the  end... </P> <P>Ok, so that does nothing, let's look at how other zones with lockouts are handled...</P> <P>Ok, how about having the lockout start if you kill any named mob in the zone....  Well, this does nothing also, as you can easily avoid killing the 2 named in there and continue to farm the zone for exp and cash drops...</P> <P>Hmmm...  Ok, none of that is working, so let's make the lockout start once you get the harclave buff....  Ok, so now you clear to the ark and get your buff, the first group spawns and you die / go LD or any number of other things that could go worng...  Well, now your locked up but never had the chance to complete the zone....</P> <P>So, what is the point of no return?  I can't see anything that either can't be gotten around or that doesn't screw the player if they some how die or go LD....</P> <P>If your going to make this a once a level type thing, then there needs to be a 100% chance to get a master chest for completing it, otherwise there is no reason for anyone to go there anymore....</P> <P> </P> <P>Now looking at this from a player point of view...  With my main character (now 60 Assassin) I had only gone to Harclave a total of 2-3 times, but that was before my hours changed at work and my play times shifted to mainly mornings...   When my hours changed and I was mainly playing in the mornings, I liked to play my Troubador (now 51) more often....  The problem with playing in the mornings was that it was near impossible to get a group....  When I was able to get a group, I would be out in other zones killing group material for exp....  But, there was times where I could not get groups for hours on end....  During these times I would put up my LFG tag and head over to Harclave...  At least I was able to get decent exp (not as good as a group, but it was ok) while waiting for some group to need me...   When and if I ever did get a tell asking me to go join a group, I would imidiatly leave Harclave to go join a group (reguardless of if I finished it or not, because I could always go back and get the Harclave quest again)...  If you ask me, Harclave is BORING, I would much rather be in a group somewhere rather than playing solo in Harclave...  That and killing the same mobs over and over is none too exciting....  I can't even guess as to how many time I nearly fell asleep while doing Harclave, because it's so boring....  </P> <P>If you take this option away, then you might as well just remove it from the game, because there is no reason for anyone to go there..  The dropped loot was sub-par for the level needed to obtain it, the cash reward for completing this quest has long been removed...  The only thing this zone had going for it, was that it gave people that play at off-peak hours something to do that resulted in a decent amount of exp....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 60 Assassin  /  Parody - 51 Troubador</P>

[Tro]

<P>It appears the SoE Devs disagree with folks that are "Non Social". Apparently folks that continuously do Harclave are considered "Non Social" and therefore this change gives them more incentive to be more "Social".</P> <P>Heh, we pay a monthly fee for the devs to give us incentive to be more Social.. hmm thats real nice.. </P> <P>I did not read in the SoE docs when I started playing that it was a "requirement" to be social in the game and meet new friends. </P> <P>Why the frig don't they just put a 24 or 48 or 96 hour timer on the zone once completed successfully? Not useable for a whole level? W-T-F ??</P> <P>It seems when they nerf stuff it is way to the extreme and when a change is considered "Good" for the general population, it is such a minor difference it is useless..</P> <P>Could be wrong but thats the way I see it..</P>

[UrkBloodA]

<P>this topic requires a good thread with a subject which is to the point and not confused with multiple issues.</P> <P>This change means : if you die in harclave you will have to level up to try again.  (that sucks.)</P> <P>if you have to camp out in harclave - you have to level up to try again.</P> <P>if the server resets - you have to level up to try again.</P> <P>if you are level 50 without DoF, or level 60.   You are Simply Out of Luck.  (ie, ----ed.)</P> <P>This change also means if you don't have DoF you will have to buy it to start grinding Tear Grifter writs as they are repeatable and soloable and good xp.  (actually much better than harclave - but that'll change soon too.)</P> <P>THIS CHANGE AS SLATED IS A VERY BAD IDEA.</P> <P>While I like the timers as they are - pushing them up to 24 hours (for reaching the harclave buff) is a much better solution.  Anything more than 24 hours is really screwing over your customers and a gross change to what was advertised for the $8 fee.  Devs - please ignore all the anti-social people who have begged you for this change - those forum trolls are in the forums 24-7 and really aren't being social in game.</P> <P>Also this game needs MOTIVATION to group.  People do not group outside their friends/guild as much as is claimed.  Over the last month I've experimented with LFG (I'll throw up LFG before bed and put on a nice afk message about how I'm away)  I get group invites from the same people as I've grouped with before but many times NO invites or tells.  NONE, on a large server with a dozen people LFG even in the darkest hours.  (And no, I'm not going to form a group with folks 20 levels below/above me.)</P> <P>Motivation does not mean screwing over the people who don't want to group.  Keep solo content alive and fun.  (imho Harclave is still fun - it's much more fun to kill heroics in harclave with the reduced xp than to solo the ^^^ stuff outside harclave.)</P>

[mylin1]

<div></div><p>Putting on LFG is only half the story, how many times are you being proactive about grouping, /ooc to find people to join you, or seeing if people are up for it by looking across all zones for people lfg. *the lfg system needs work - EQ1 was better but that’s another topic..I’m not sure closing down harclaves will help with pickup groups but I don’t think it will hinder it.As its easy to get to 20 solo it may be that people just aren’t use to grouping and don’t feel comfortable starting one. Many pickup groups that I have had as of late have included a 20+ person who's new to grouping and scared of making mistakes etc.I guess its an indication how important harclaves became for a lot of people to level/gain loot the amount of posts about its changes is generating.For those that have limited time, how limited is it? - How long does it take to wait for the quest, run harclaves and then wait for the quest to be accessible, that doesn’t sound so limited to me - not everyone who is grouping expects 15 hours of solid play - sometimes groups go for 30min with lots of fun, a few bits of loot and sometimes they go for hours but I would think there would be an average of 2 hours for most of my groups.Mylin<span></span></p>

[sizzy]

<DIV>What is to stop people from stopping at the point they are to sit on the throne and just zone out?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This way they can get the kill xp they just won't get the quest xp...just a thought</DIV>

[KoV]

<P>Hello to all... just wanted to say that I am a tinge dissapointed in a line that Moorgard wrote :</P> <P> </P> <P>"The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left   because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with? Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant"</P> <P> </P> <P>Now there telling us what to do with our time? Why do they care if someone is sitting at the zone entrance waiting for the re-use timer?.... Something is amuck here! </P> <P>-= FraZZled =- </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>