It Finally Happened......

[Elyssia]

<DIV>Sarchel the Storyteller will now only offer the Trial of Harclave quest to each adventurer once per level.<BR></DIV> <DIV>*dodges the nerf-bat*</DIV>

[Sean Leclair]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....*deep breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. ah man that took long enough. good, tired of so many of my guildys rotting away in that place.

[Mon]

It is still amazing to me that people can be SO worried about what other folks do with their time. <div></div>

[Ildarus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Monal wrote:<BR>It is still amazing to me that people can be SO worried about what other folks do with their time.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would have to agree. If you only have time to worry about what other people are doing in the game, maybe you should go for a walk in the park. At least something to get you away from the computer.

[Meribor]

<div></div>I have no problem with this change unless it affects those trying to get through their first Harclave in order to get the trust of the gnolls.  My little necromancer just did this last week and died on her first attempt ... it would have sucked if I'd had to pull her out of the Den to gain a level and go back through the Upper Tunnels (even with Invisibility) before I could've tried again.  As it was, I was upset enough because she died near the end and had to take a break before trying again ... successfully the next time  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think it should be either level or real time restricted. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Meribor on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:14 AM</span>

[Sean Leclair]

<DIV>im kinda curious as to where in mine or the post above you see worry.</DIV>

[morethansoun]

<DIV>Oh....my........did they just do what I think they did?!?!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileysad::smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[D]

<P>There is far more to Splitpaw than Harclave...the upper tunnels still provides better loot overall and Fitch's prank has netted me a server first drop.</P> <P>I play solo the majority of the time..so no need to scorch me, just my opinion that Harclave is not the "be all, end all" of SS. </P> <P>There are some really cool zones and still great loot drop throughout the expansion.</P>

[Krisp]

<blockquote><hr>Sean Leclaire2 wrote:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....*deep breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. ah man that took long enough. good, tired of so many of my guildys rotting away in that place.<hr></blockquote>So you are happy that the change will now save your guildies...from themselves?Honestly, if people want the exp in that zone they just dont kill the last named. Keep the quest and keep going back in.

[Sean Leclair]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krispen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sean Leclaire2 wrote:<BR> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....*deep breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. ah man that took long enough. good, tired of so many of my guildys rotting away in that place.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>So you are happy that the change will now save your guildies...from themselves?<BR><BR>Honestly, if people want the exp in that zone they just dont kill the last named. Keep the quest and keep going back in.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thought they fixed that. i dont really much care that they do the trial, there just awesome people to group with, hate sendin them a tell about goin and grouping to get a reply "sorry just started harclave, gonna be a few hours" or "i only have a few hours to play, gonna do a harclave run"</DIV>

[Nephiere]

<DIV>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.  I basically quit for 5 months because I didn't have enough time to effectively lvl.  I actually came back because an old guildie sold me on SS and how convient Harclave was.  It would make more since to increase the lock out timer.  Some people only get a few hours a week...if that to play.  If it wasn't for being able to go there and spend a good productive hour and half, I wouldn't hardly make any character advancements.  I don't understand why the devs can't just give it a reuse timer of say a week?  At least that way the poeple who seldom get to play can feel like they actually accomplish something when they get to log in.  This is a very disappointing approach IMO.:smileysad:</DIV>

[D]

<DIV>neph, at the absolute worse, I have gotten about 42% on a run through, and I DO NOT jump in the pit to kill the mobs, nor do I kill every single mob in the zone..so even if you can only play twice a week, once you run Harclave, next you run upper tunnels or the prank and you will level, and then can go back in again since you have leveled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure there is greater risk in the other zones, but there should be some risk for reward.</DIV>

[Nephiere]

<P>Makes sense, I don't think I've actually set foot in the tunnels since I got a shard.  I'll give it a run and see how it goes.  Thanks DP:smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P>Edit: It is more time consuming to do the other zones..but it can't be that much more.</P><p>Message Edited by Nephiere on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:56 AM</span>

[D]

<P>good luck neph! If you were on nek..you could come run with me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>Yes it can be a little more time consuming...but max the effort..I still cant get over how little pick me up drop quests..(ie kill a skeleton, get purge undead drop..kill 10 more easy mobs and get 3 - 5%)... I try to plan by reviewing quests online before I play and then hunting/questing.. I really do experience quite fast..my friend has access to my detailed page and he was amazed that I leveled 3 times in TS in 2 nights!</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by DPF on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:39 AM</span>

[Trathe]

<P>I from time to time use Harclave to solo.  For some classes it is the only viable EFFICIENT option.  Every class can solo.  Not all classes solo efficiently.</P> <P>To nerf Harclave again is okay as long as the XP portion recieved is "De-nerfed".</P> <P>Come on I can make more xp off a single up white con solo mob outside compared to being inside Harclave.  There is no real reason to nerf Harclave again.  The xp is actually slower for "most" classes.  The non-efficient classes get a chance basically for the casual player once a day hardcore well maybe 3 times and that is really pushing it.  Doing it on easy nets about 20% xp for my mid 30's toons 30% for Hard (and was not able to get last boss mob).</P> <P>/sarcasm</P> <P>If you really want to slow down the experience that people get from it then make it a [Removed for Content] one time deal.. heck take it out!!  You don't want anyone soloing their way to 50 now do you?</P> <DIV>/sarcasm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it is a once a level thing then have the xp from the mobs count as it did when Harclave first came out.</DIV>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nephiere wrote:<BR> <DIV>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with? Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</DIV>

[Calthine]

<P>Make sense to me.</P> <P>There was someone in a channel last night whining that he couldn't get a group and wanted XP.  Turns out he was just sitting in Splitpaw between Harclave runs.  I asked him "Why don't you get out and get a group in TS?"  "Oh no, " says he "I need the XP you get here."  I'm thinking, you aren't getting ANY XP sitting there whining that you can't get an XP group in Splitpaw!  It's as if he did not know there were other places to get XP.</P> <P>This is a good decision.</P>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<P>Well since I have tried Harclave's 7 times now, and not completed it once.  This will basically make it so that I will never make it through.</P> <P>I have killed the named shroom, twice. But at 2.5 hours  or so a try, and getting little xp for the trip, but need to complete a quest down there for the teleportation shard.</P> <P>Oh well, so it goes.</P> <P>Now I really wish I had gone in prior to LU#13 nuke.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:17 AM</span>

[Ktok]

<DIV>You... you mean... I may not have to group with people anymore who went from 20 to 50 in Harclave and have NO CLUE how to play in a group?? Thank Sekhmet! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Aeadiin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nephiere wrote:<BR> <DIV>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. <FONT color=#ff0000>What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with?</FONT> Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sorry Steve, but if I am reading this right this is the worst reasoning possible for making this change.  What you are saying here basically, is that you considered the effect on casual players, and decided that some players chosing to be anti-social was an acceptable reason to nerf those that don't have that choice.  How are those players sitting afk waiting for Harclave in any way harming the game itself enough to justify removing the only way a casual player can come even close to the progression rate that a more active player can?</P> <P>Do not nerf casual play for no better reason then you don't approve that some people play anti socially!</P>

[Almeric_CoS]

<DIV>Aeh, since when is Harclave REALLY for casual players?  It takes hours to sweep through and squeeze out all the exp and loot it has to offer.  If you're going to be on for hours anyway, you should be able to find a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until recently, I was running a pretty sizable guild.  And up until the expansion, Harclave was driving me [Removed for Content] NUTS.  Guildmates were in there ALL THE TIME, because the combo of exp and loot (loot you don't have to compete for) made the perceived best place to go for exp.  So when another guildmate needs help with something and we try to get a group going...most folks are too busy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I went on record - at least in my guild if not here - as being extremely disappointed in "The Harclave Effect" on the social aspect of EQ2 over and over again.  I've done Harclave, and I've enjoyed it; it's a wonderfully creative and interesting zone.  But making it once per level is the smartest followup they could have done at this point.  I think it'll show a significant difference in the ability to find groups at least for anybody under 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...also, it sounds like the once-per-level trips are going to see a really nice rate of return on loot quality.  I wouldn't mind a master spell or two <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[JonasBlackmore]

<span><blockquote><hr>Aeadiin wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Moorgard wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Nephiere wrote: <div>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game. <hr> </div></blockquote> <div><font color="#ffff00">We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</div> <div> </div> <div>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</div> <div> </div> <div>The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. <font color="#ff0000">What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with?</font> Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.</div> <div> </div> <div>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. <font color="#ff9933"><b>We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</b></font></div> <div> </div> <div>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I'm sorry Steve, but if I am reading this right this is the worst reasoning possible for making this change.  What you are saying here basically, is that you considered the effect on casual players, and decided that some players chosing to be anti-social was an acceptable reason to nerf those that don't have that choice.  How are those players sitting afk waiting for Harclave in any way harming the game itself enough to justify removing the only way a casual player can come even close to the progression rate that a more active player can?</p> <p>Do not nerf casual play for no better reason then you don't approve that some people play anti socially!</p><hr></blockquote> I highlighted in orange the main point that you apparently missed.</span><div></div>

[Grimhamm]

<P>**REMOVED INAPPROPRIATE POST**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:04 PM</span>

[brow27]

I think this change is FANTASTIC!  There were so many people in Splitpaw in the time I went from 40 to 50 that with my limited playtime I couldn't find a good exp group.  This in turn caused me to also wallow away in Splitpaw.  However, it wasn't just harclaves.  Harclaves was nice for the loot, but dang it got old fast.  I think I probably spent more time in Hideout than anywhere else.  I can't tell you how many times I WANTED to group, but over half of my guildies were in Harclaves or another SP zone. As Moorgard said, there are lots of other places to get equivalent or better exp than Harclaves.  This is especially true since quest exp was boosted.  This is a MMO, not a single player game.  If you're content just grinding from 20 to 50 in harclaves by yourself, you're probably better suited to playing a single player game.  <div></div>

[ValdacilFelagund]

My only question is how does this effect a failure in this zone.  i.e. if you zone out before completing the objectives or is (it can happen) you die while completing the objectives can you receive the quest again in order to try again or are you locked out till next level?  In other words the way it is stated is that he will only offer the quest once per level, thus does this mean one "attempt" per level or one "success" per level?  If you zone out, the quest is removed from your journal and you have to get it again, so can you get it again or will you have to level first?

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grimhammer wrote:<BR> <DIV>Steve -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am using Harclave to overcome a design oversight in the Combat Changes - so, I actually feel some entitlement to having Harclave available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played a Templar exclusively for almost a year - a fairly considerable investment, wouldn't you agree? - and I really, really, really tried to like the Combat Changes, but ultimately I was not having fun.  The problem is the Combat Change design assumed everyone would be singing, skipping, and happy and thus, it appears, gave no consideration to the possibility that some of us may not like it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am one of those people.  I found myself enjoying Mr. Ed re-runs more than playing my new Templar, so finally I decided to start a new character - and again, because the Combat Change design gave me no other choice - right?  (Check out the Templar forum; I am not alone.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, all my guild friends are level 50+ and it's not fair for me to ask them to mentor me in old content, so I am racing to get back to what I enjoy the most: Playing with my friends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, thanks a lot.  First, you sour my year-long investment in my Templar and now you take a way a key tool to ** quickly ** get me back to having fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are the toilets lowered, or do they have step stools?  I mean how do you accomodate the monkeys in the Sony offices?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Grimhammer on <SPAN class=date_text>11-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The exp got nerfed a long time ago. You can get much more doing other things.</P> <P> </P> <P>Aside from that.. you don't have to have the quest to enter harclave. I.E. you can still go in and kill things all you want, but you wont get the "quest experience" for it.</P>

[Almeric_CoS]

<DIV>It says the storyteller will only assign Harclave once per level.  Don't you retain the quest in your journal if you fail?  It's been a while but I thought you did.</DIV>

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grimhammer wrote:<BR> <DIV>Steve -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am using Harclave to overcome a design oversight in the Combat Changes - so, I actually feel some entitlement to having Harclave available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played a Templar exclusively for almost a year - a fairly considerable investment, wouldn't you agree? - and I really, really, really tried to like the Combat Changes, but ultimately I was not having fun.  The problem is the Combat Change design assumed everyone would be singing, skipping, and happy and thus, it appears, gave no consideration to the possibility that some of us may not like it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am one of those people.  I found myself enjoying Mr. Ed re-runs more than playing my new Templar, so finally I decided to start a new character - and again, because the Combat Change design gave me no other choice - right?  (Check out the Templar forum; I am not alone.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, all my guild friends are level 50+ and it's not fair for me to ask them to mentor me in old content, so I am racing to get back to what I enjoy the most: Playing with my friends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, thanks a lot.  First, you sour my year-long investment in my Templar and now you take a way a key tool to ** quickly ** get me back to having fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are the toilets lowered, or do they have step stools?  I mean how do you accomodate the monkeys in the Sony offices?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Grimhammer on <SPAN class=date_text>11-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Harclave is by FAR not the most efficient way to get a new toon back to level 50.  Send me a PM if you want details.<BR>

[Aeadiin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JonasBlackmore wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aeadiin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nephiere wrote:<BR> <DIV>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. <FONT color=#ff0000>What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with?</FONT> Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. <FONT color=#ff9933><B>We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sorry Steve, but if I am reading this right this is the worst reasoning possible for making this change.  What you are saying here basically, is that you considered the effect on casual players, and decided that some players chosing to be anti-social was an acceptable reason to nerf those that don't have that choice.  How are those players sitting afk waiting for Harclave in any way harming the game itself enough to justify removing the only way a casual player can come even close to the progression rate that a more active player can?</P> <P>Do not nerf casual play for no better reason then you don't approve that some people play anti socially!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I highlighted in orange the main point that you apparently missed.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Nerfing something due to an incorrect assumption people have about it isn't much better then the other reasons he stated.  I've only bothered with Harclave once myself, since it doesn't fit my playstyle, but the reasoning behind the change is what really bothers me.  My roomate however uses Harclave almost exclusively due to his work schedule, he doesn't have a choice about being more social as when he gets home from work there are very few people on, but when he has a chance he does group with eithe guildies or myself and other friends.  But according to the devs, that doesn't matter.  What matters is some other people are choosing to be anti social and leveling in Harclave rather then out making friends.  Thats just plain stupid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Harclave being a special event.  Welcome to last week.  Special events aren't special anymore after a certain amount of time has passed.  </DIV>

[Lexli]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>"What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with?"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I think you are missing something here, as are all the other people that think they will now have people to group with. If someone is doing harclave because they don't enjoy grouping, they will just go solo somewhere else. They aren't going to magically say, "oh well, harclave is nerfed. I'll go find a group now! woohoo!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You also stated that exp is much better outside of harclave, so I'm not entirely sure what you are accomplishing by nerfing it. Why not make a warning message before zoning into harclave; *** ATTENTION: EXP IS BETTER ELSEWHERE *** Are you sure you wish to enther the trial of harclave? This way, those that choose to go get better exp can, and those that choose to live in harclave can.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc3300>"As Moorgard said, there are lots of other places to get equivalent or better exp than Harclaves.  This is especially true since quest exp was boosted.  This is a MMO, not a single player game.  If you're content just grinding from 20 to 50 in harclaves by yourself, you're probably better suited to playing a single player game. "</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this not a single player game, then all solo content should be removed, hmmm? Even with the limited solo content out there, it is still one of the better 'single player games'. Also, just because I don't enjoy grouping with people, I still enjoy talking with my friends while I do my own thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The harclave nerf is nothing more than a nerf for the casual/*GASP* anti-social  player. It will not promote grouping. People who sit afk waiting for the quest are not going to magically go out and find groups. If anything, they will just log off instead of sitting in-game.</DIV>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aeadiin wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>As for Harclave being a special event.  Welcome to last week.  Special events aren't special anymore after a certain amount of time has passed.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is a matter of opinion. A new player, who has never experienced Harclave, levels up to 20, busting his balls to get there. Now, he has attemtped many heroics, and has died in very short order on all of them (solo). He decides to check out Splitpaw since he heard talk about it. He wanders into Harclave, kills all the solo mobs, then gets that buff and things "OMG!! I'M IMMORTAL!!" That is pretty "special" to him...</DIV>

[ValdacilFelagund]

I could be wrong, but last night I used Portal on my wizard to escape from a multiple add problem gone mad.  When I got out I could no longer find the quest in my journal and the active quest was no longer displaying on my quest helper.  I believe it gets removed and you have to start over if you fail/zone out.  Then again, I've been known to be wrong from time to time. <grin>

[Zyphius]

<P>It's still there if you go LD... had it happen...</P> <P>But, I will say again... if you MUST "LIVE" in Harclave.. you don't need the quest. Go in, kill things over and over, and when you ding, go get the quest. Rinse and repeat, and you can happily live in an extremely repetive state, and no one will ever bother you.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: And to clarify... I am not Anti-Harclave. I use it quite a bit. I am one of those that abused it and went 10 levels in a week in Harclave. I currently only use it to bankroll leveling my sage, since, as any sage can tell you, leveling a sage cost a lot of money with no return on investment but "ding" "you are now level %level%". This change is not that big of a deal though. You miss out on maybe a max of 9% of exp per level by not being able to pick up the quest (but once) and get quest credit for completing it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by putergod on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:15 PM</span>

[Terabethia]

<P>While I agree that Harclave is not the best xp in the game by a long shot, I think this change is quite silly. Maybe some people just enjoy the fun of being "invinceable". Maybe they are there for loot to make some $$. Maybe they are there because they CAN'T find a group and want to do something productive. </P> <P>So, why not just make the zone on a longer timer? Once per level just seems vauge to me. If you are a more casul player, 1 level could be days or weeks. Why not just put a 3 day timer, or 5 day or whatever? Also... not that there are too many 60's that would even use this zone, but I guess we never get to again? (well, until there is another level cap increase).</P> <P>Also, soemone stated that you can go into harclave without the quest? Unless they changed this within the last month or so, you must have the quest to get in there. It is the whole point of the zone. You get the quest, that gives you access to the zone. Then you have to activate the torches to get the buff, which again is part of the quest. If you just leave, you keep your quest and can go back in. But if you fail (ie: die) you must go get the quest again. </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Terabethia on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 AM</span>

[Aeadiin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aeadiin wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>As for Harclave being a special event.  Welcome to last week.  Special events aren't special anymore after a certain amount of time has passed.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is a matter of opinion. A new player, who has never experienced Harclave, levels up to 20, busting his balls to get there. Now, he has attemtped many heroics, and has died in very short order on all of them (solo). He decides to check out Splitpaw since he heard talk about it. He wanders into Harclave, kills all the solo mobs, then gets that buff and things "OMG!! I'M IMMORTAL!!" That is pretty "special" to him...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yes, but that same new player won't be saying the same thing after a month of doing Harclaves.  That will be true even if the change goes live.  Thus after a certain amount of time has passed it is no longer a special even for that new player, and my point stands.</DIV>

[roganem]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nephiere wrote:<BR> <DIV>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with? Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Moorguard,</P> <P>To sum up what your saying....SOE will dictate HOW people should play and what's in their best interest for how they spend their time online.</P> <P>I could apply your logic above to remove any solobale area in the game since 1) they are always better exp alternatives 2)people will be compelled to grind on solos when they are close to leveling and 3) just think how many more people you can meet if there are no soloable areas.</P> <P>Your decision is based on personal preference not game breaking issues.</P>

[jordaann]

<div></div>I don't see this as a big deal. 1. harclave xp has been horrible for quite a while.  I do the prank and get lots more xp 2.  I believe the quest is removed from your book up on exit regardless of success/failure, least it was beforehand <div></div><p>Message Edited by jordaann on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 PM</span>

[Zyphius]

<DIV><FONT size=4>Ok, I am going to say this once more since people are still harping on "you can't tell me how to play"...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>You don't need the quest to enter Harclave!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>The change ONLY states that you can ONLY get the QUEST once per level.. NOT that you cant ENTER and kill things in Harclave!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>And, unless the devs say they are blocking the entrance to once per level, this crying is rediculous.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by putergod on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 AM</span>

[Raven DarkSto]

<P>Umm, the big writing is obnoxious :smileytongue:.  And either I encountered a bug on this one, or you are mistaken.  I had to run out through the portal (did not die)just two nights ago, due to adds before getting the buff.  The quest was gone from my book and upon getting it again I was immediately let in.  Also, I have had to exit after the buff but before I had killed anything to hand an item off to a guildy, and the reentry timer was activated already.  Unless what happened to me is a bug in those two cases, you cannot just reenter and kill the mobs over and over.</P> <P>Seriously a bad idea IMO to make this change.  No need to give folks who barely want to play the game another reason to leave.  And really, does it make any sense at all to try to push groups on those that do not want them?</P> <P>As far as 50's that don't know how to play their characters, I have met plenty that were 50 before Harclave's existed that don't play them any better, lol.</P>

[D]

<P>There is some truth here rogan, but your are comparing orcs to gnolls..there is NO other solo zone like Harcalve that puts an near invulnerable aura around you and lets you gain solid experience and very good loot with VERY VERY minimal risk. Once you learn the strategy for this zone, you can run any class through it without any real strategy or use of abilities. If this is your idea of fun, so be it...but get out and try to enjoy other solo content that is all over this land or the other areas within SS that offer excellent loot and exp, but also challenge the use of your skills and toon traits.</P> <P>I have a little of everything, from Bruiser to Templar, and I agree that classes are not equal for soloing, but there is content if you look.</P> <P>The problem is then people want their shard of trust, can't finish the arena solo, can do the prank, so then need to group to finish the quest. </P> <P>My group has helped several people finish their quests, and the problem is, these people struggle with playing their class. They have leveled so long in this area without need for strategy or use of skill, they simply do not understand fighting heroics without having *Celestial Mode* on..</P> <P>A SK that doesn't realize he has a ranged attack? A wizard that doesn't know he has invis? An assassin that thinks he's a tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Its just my opinion, but I enjoy hunting in zones where the risk of aggro and death is possbile, where my skill with my toon is the deciding factor in a fight (with a lil luck thrown in sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), not the fact that I have a buff and can run my Inquisitor through paper doll mobs.</P> <P>Harclave is not gone. You can still enjoy the content.</P>

[Hawgeous]

<DIV>I am not a tester but the missinformation was addressed by one so this message can be removed.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Hawgeous on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aeadiin wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Nerfing something due to an incorrect assumption people have about it isn't much better then the other reasons he stated.  I've only bothered with Harclave once myself, since it doesn't fit my playstyle, but the reasoning behind the change is what really bothers me.  My roomate however uses Harclave almost exclusively due to his work schedule, he doesn't have a choice about being more social as when he gets home from work there are very few people on, but when he has a chance he does group with eithe guildies or myself and other friends.  But according to the devs, that doesn't matter.  What matters is some other people are choosing to be anti social and leveling in Harclave rather then out making friends.  Thats just plain stupid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Harclave being a special event.  Welcome to last week.  Special events aren't special anymore after a certain amount of time has passed.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So wait, what did your roommate do before Splitpaw was released?  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Fortai]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>"It is still amazing to me that people can be SO worried about what other folks do with their time."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Economy?  Community?  Did you think of those?  They sort of are important in an MMO...</FONT>  </DIV><p>Message Edited by liquidsol on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:07 PM</span>

[D]

<P>my experience with it has been that If i run to zone, or once fell with a toon with no safe fall and died, then I must hear the story to get back in..</P> <P>I would get the 12 minute message if I ran, then try to zone and get the "don't meet the requirement" issue. Listen to the long winded dog, and back in for another round.  Good for those who can get back in without listening..</P>

[Hawgeous]

<DIV>I am not a tester but the missinformation was addressed by one so this message can be removed.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Hawgeous on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

[Dawnrise]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nephiere wrote:<BR> <DIV>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. <FONT color=#ffff00>Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with?</FONT> Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So what you're saying is that because YOU don't approve of how people who PAY to play this game, are playing it, YOU decide to change it?  Wanting to play in Harclaves is a perfectly legitimate way to spend an evening.  As others have said, those that exclusively want to play solo in Harclave are not going to group with all the rejoicers of this move anyway.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I REALLY, REALLY wish people would stop [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and worrying about how everyone else plays this game and mind their own bloody business!:smileymad:  All this constant Nannying, and "OH! Johnny won't play with me so I'm gonna get HIS playstyle nerfed so that he will have to" is so immature and downright invasive.  So what if I want to do Harclaves for a week, once a night?  What business is that of yours?  I pay to play this game in any way I choose, within the framework of the rules.  You want to dictate how I should play? Fine! Pay my subs for me and I'll happily oblige you.  As long as I am paying them though, kindly keep your nose OUT of my business!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In this game, choices have consequences.  If I CHOOSE to play in Harclaves all week, that is my CHOICE, and I happily accept the CONSEQUENCE of not getting as much xp as I would adventuring in other places.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This change should NOT go live.  Period.  It is based on a subjective, even vindictive motive.  It's NOT broken - go fix stuff that is instead of finding yet newer ways of screwing up your paying customer's play time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deep</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Jayad]

<DIV>Great, back to being LFG for hours at a time again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some of us who play, say, late at night, cannot find groups - even if we're LFG the whole time.  Harclave was a good way to do something productive while looking for a group.  I never have gotten big drops in Harclave (no fabled, legendary, etc.) but it was good XP churn and a constant rate of loot-for-vendor.  So I could LFG for 30 minutes, if I don't find anything, then I just do a Harclave run.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think SOE has this insane idea that if you go looking for a group (big or small), you will find one.   This might be true at 3pm on a weekend, but try finding groups at midnight on a weekday in certain zones or levels.  I am not pleased with SOE trying to manage how we play the game.   Harclave no longer provides excessive XP or loot, so what exactly is the problem that is being fixed?  Can't people decide for themselves how they want to play?</DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dawnrise wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>So what you're saying is that because YOU don't approve of how people who PAY to play this game, are playing it, YOU decide to change it?  Wanting to play in Harclaves is a perfectly legitimate way to spend an evening.  As others have said, those that exclusively want to play solo in Harclave are not going to group with all the rejoicers of this move anyway.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Another great quest was the Journey is Half the Fun.  That's a GREAT quest.  I could finish it in a couple hours with minimal assistance or danger...got a great item for the risk involved...and a significant chunk of experience and status.  I wish I could run THAT quest every night...or even every level.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[D]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=494301620-04112005>EQ II 's own self imposed addiction <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Moorguard did hit on one sure point from reading these posts.."just one more run through Harclave...'" May as well laugh!</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=494301620-04112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=494301620-04112005>H allucinogenic</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=494301620-04112005>A nalgesic</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=494301620-04112005>R eclusive</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=494301620-04112005>C hronic</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=494301620-04112005>L eveling</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=494301620-04112005>A ddict's</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=494301620-04112005>V ivacious</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=494301620-04112005>E xperience</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Dawnrise]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dawnrise wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>So what you're saying is that because YOU don't approve of how people who PAY to play this game, are playing it, YOU decide to change it?  Wanting to play in Harclaves is a perfectly legitimate way to spend an evening.  As others have said, those that exclusively want to play solo in Harclave are not going to group with all the rejoicers of this move anyway.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Another great quest was the Journey is Half the Fun.  That's a GREAT quest.  I could finish it in a couple hours with minimal assistance or danger...got a great item for the risk involved...and a significant chunk of experience and status.  I wish I could run THAT quest every night...or even every level.  </P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Bad example.  You never COULD redo that quest, so it was not changed to dissuade people from spending their free time on it.  That kind of thing I have no problem in accepting.  Where I DO have a problem is as in the Harclave quest, where just because some people prefer to spend their free time in there, it suddenly has to be nerfed, yet again.  Lack of freedom of choice is what will eventually kill this game, or at least turn it into a linear progression ala Diablo II.</P> <P> </P> <P>Deep<BR></P>

[Almeric_CoS]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> Dawnrise wrote:<BR><BR>Bad example.  You never COULD redo that quest, so it was not changed to dissuade people from spending their free time on it.  That kind of thing I have no problem in accepting.  Where I DO have a problem is as in the Harclave quest, where just because some people prefer to spend their free time in there, it suddenly has to be nerfed, yet again.  Lack of freedom of choice is what will eventually kill this game, or at least turn it into a linear progression ala Diablo II.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Deep<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Are you really complaining about linear progression in the same breath that you're saying it's bad to limit the number of times one can do Harclave?  So in your mind, NO progression is better than linear progression?  That's some funky logic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not that I really see EQ2's progression as "linear" anyway.  There's a TON of places you can go at any level range to keep the environment from getting stale.  But any game that uses levels as its base for power is going to be linear in that you can't fight the tougher baddies until you yourself are tougher.  I think that only makes sense, but apart from that there's too much to do to be truly linear.</DIV>

[Sell]

<P>To me Harclave was all about the insane amount of money you made in it.  It seemed like sometimes every other encounter would drop another adept1 or recipe book</P> <P>The well documented 'harclave effect' doubled the cost of rares on my server.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Why not just increase the reset timer to 24 hours?</P>

[Dawnrise]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Almeric wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> Dawnrise wrote:<BR><BR>Bad example.  You never COULD redo that quest, so it was not changed to dissuade people from spending their free time on it.  That kind of thing I have no problem in accepting.  Where I DO have a problem is as in the Harclave quest, where just because some people prefer to spend their free time in there, it suddenly has to be nerfed, yet again.  Lack of freedom of choice is what will eventually kill this game, or at least turn it into a linear progression ala Diablo II.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Deep<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Are you really complaining about linear progression in the same breath that you're saying it's bad to limit the number of times one can do Harclave?  So in your mind, NO progression is better than linear progression?  That's some funky logic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not that I really see EQ2's progression as "linear" anyway.  There's a TON of places you can go at any level range to keep the environment from getting stale.  But any game that uses levels as its base for power is going to be linear in that you can't fight the tougher baddies until you yourself are tougher.  I think that only makes sense, but apart from that there's too much to do to be truly linear.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Nope.  What I am complaining about is the choice being taken away from me.  I COULD do Harclaves till the cows come home if I wanted to.  It'd be bloody boring, but hey!  Whatever floats my boat right?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously I adventure in many places, but with each prospective nerf like this, that choice is reduced and diminished.  I do not appreciate people telling me I cannot play in Harclaves any more because some poor sap can't get a group somewhere.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I speak of linear progression, EVERYTHING, even RL is linear to an extent.  A side effect of living within Linear Time I suspect :smileywink: My example of Diablo II points to not only gradually fighting tougher and tougher foes, and thereby gaining levels, but the choice of locations where you can do that are so tigthly limited that you have ONE choice at each step.  I do not want to see EQ2 gradually limiting people's choices and thereby pushing them into a more and more linear progression through the game.  My example was extreme, but apt for the point I wished to convey.  Alas, a point you seem to have missed :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deep</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[standupwookie]

Did anyone NOT see this coming? If you have ever played EQ1 or SWG you KNOW that with every expansion, items and experience are added that are better than what was previously had.  There are literally hundreds of examples for each game.  They do this so people will pay for the expansion then play it....happens every time. Then they nerf it after about 6 months...citing how it goes against the "vision" of the game.  We all know the drill here. Anyway, there will be a new harclave with the next expansion, so there is really no need to cry. suw

[Ruben]

<P>My only concern with the recent changes and this is SoE determination to try and make people group. I solo or craft everynight from 6est to 10est then my group gets on and i group play till 12 and on the weekends.</P> <P>Whether you goal is to forcing people to group or not, your actions of late are pointing to that direction. Honestly SoE needs to determine what their vision is going to be besides blurred, You want a group only game or you want a game that is viable for both and stop this flopping back and forth.</P> <P>First you downtier then you uptier and change heroics so they can one shot kill ya.  This change doesnt really affect me, I might go to harclaves once a level as it is now so no biggie. My concern is that with these recent changes you appear to be trying to force people down a path. This i see as a problem because people who group up sometimes but mostly solo will leave this game and that will remove one more person who i might be able to group with in an emergency.</P>

[D]

<P>Rube, like you, I am not a Harclave fanatic and neither are my friends. But limiting access is not taking away access, nor is Harclave the only solo spot on the face of this imaginary world. </P> <P>There is good solo content in all areas (through the 30's at least...wont comment on 40 +) where you can make good money and experience and enjoy the company of yourself. I solo far more than I group b/c my 2 main playing friends are professionals with varying work schedules, we we get to play about 1 time in 4 as a group, with each of us soloing when others are not on or getting into a PUG. </P> <P>When they nerfed the heroics, I went to dungeons or the next level zone up. Now heroics are back on roids, and the experience is fantastic. </P> <P>If ppl really want to live their lives in Harclave..live it up baby! ..but..The argument that "solo" people will leave is not definitively valid b/c there is a plethora of content to solo... just not with a deity inspired buff.</P> <P>Oddly, I never (ever) put on the LFG flag and get asked to group every time I solo, so I am not complaining about lack of group opportunities.</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dawnrise wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dawnrise wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>So what you're saying is that because YOU don't approve of how people who PAY to play this game, are playing it, YOU decide to change it?  Wanting to play in Harclaves is a perfectly legitimate way to spend an evening.  As others have said, those that exclusively want to play solo in Harclave are not going to group with all the rejoicers of this move anyway.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Another great quest was the Journey is Half the Fun.  That's a GREAT quest.  I could finish it in a couple hours with minimal assistance or danger...got a great item for the risk involved...and a significant chunk of experience and status.  I wish I could run THAT quest every night...or even every level.  </P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Bad example.  You never COULD redo that quest, so it was not changed to dissuade people from spending their free time on it.  That kind of thing I have no problem in accepting.  Where I DO have a problem is as in the Harclave quest, where just because some people prefer to spend their free time in there, it suddenly has to be nerfed, yet again.  Lack of freedom of choice is what will eventually kill this game, or at least turn it into a linear progression ala Diablo II.</P> <P> </P> <P>Deep<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The point was made, though.  Some quests are just too good to re-run over and over and over.  Personally, I always felt the quest was "too good".  If they're going to add on new rewards to the quest, then I most definately feel it's in need of some restrictions.</P> <P><BR>I know I wasn't the only one who requested that the rewards be toned down and a lock out timer be placed on it.  Even so, it was still far overutilized on most servers, leading to many officers in my own Guild to start referring to it as "Harclave Syndrome" whenever we'd meet someone who didn't seem to know how to run within a group setting at higher levels.</P> <P>Now, you're correct that a large part of the outcry we are seeing is because it's being removed.   No one likes to lose a crutch.  It's painful to start putting weight on unused limbs again just as I'm sure it will be painful for some players to start remembering what life was like BEFORE Harclave's existed.  </P> <P>Now, had Harclave's never been a repeatable quest, and we were suddenly informed that we'd be able to start repeating it every level, there would be excitement. As it is, this is not the case.  It doesn't mean that the situation isn't still the best one...only that it <EM>feels</EM> a bit more upsetting because it's we've lost something we've grown too dependant upon in the first place.  When other repeatable quests are downgraded...you hear nary a peep.  However, remove HARCLAVE's and you risk a riot?  Why?  </P> <P>Is it the only content that exists for soloing?  Why is there such an outrage over <EM>one quest</EM>.  It's because the risk to reward ratio is much better than just about anywhere else in the game.  It's EASY money.  It's EASY experience.  I don't even have to pay attention in Harclave's.  I light the torches, turn on god-mode, and start looking to see what shows are on T.V.  You don't even have to heal yourself, and it's almost counterproductive to use spells.  I COULD rush Harclave's in 30 minutes...but why?  I can start a fight, walk away, and without even autoattacking, everything's dead!  Name any other instance in any other zone with any other quest where I can bring in the same level of rewards as Harclave's currently delivers with the same level of risk.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> standupwookie wrote:<BR>Did anyone NOT see this coming?<BR><BR>If you have ever played EQ1 or SWG you KNOW that with every expansion, items and experience are added that are better than what was previously had.  There are literally hundreds of examples for each game.  They do this so people will pay for the expansion then play it....happens every time.<BR><BR>Then they nerf it after about 6 months...citing how it goes against the "vision" of the game.  We all know the drill here.<BR><BR>Anyway, there will be a new harclave with the next expansion, so there is really no need to cry.<BR><BR>suw<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>With Blizzard expansions, I couldn't even play with friends on the same server if I didn't have the latest expansion...so at least there's that much going for SOE.

[Nainitsuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nephiere wrote:<BR> <DIV>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with? Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lol.  So, in a nutshell you're saying "We know there's the casual group out there who want to pay to play our game.  But it's really a market we don't want."</P> <P>Or</P> <P>"We realise that people have a limited amount of time to play the game, and searching for a group is usually a big time burgler for 12 of our classes (The DPS classes).  It's time you stopped playing the DPS classes and make a healer.</P> <P> </P> <P>Smooth move devs, what's next?  Gonna make this a FPS as well?</P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nainitsuj wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Lol.  So, in a nutshell you're saying "We know there's the casual group out there who want to pay to play our game.  But it's really a market we don't want."</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Are you suggesting that for the 9 months prior to the release of the Splitpaw Saga, casual players had nothing to do?<BR>

[Caldar]

<DIV>I'm looking at this three page long thread and thinking this is basically a petition.  So I'm putting my opinion out there in case someone is listening.   DO NOT DESTROY HARCLAVE.  Ty ;P  That's exactly what this "once per level" thing will do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(just some quick information by the way.  I just looked on my server... levels 30-60.  There are 210 people on currently.  Out of those 210, there is one person actually in harclave and 5 people in splitpaw.  So, tell us all again how nerfing harclave will free up more people to group.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The rest is simply my rambling reasons ;P feel free to ignore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people say that nerfing harclave (AGAIN) will free up people to group.   It won't happen guys.  It's not going to help.  People will just run along and either craft, or solo some easy monsters wherever they want.   They aren't going to magically start sitting around looking for groups which are impossible to find.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My typical play time goes like this...  do a harclave.  Okay.. got that out of the way in 60 minutes (yes 60, everything dead <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm fast)   Now, lets look for a group and have some fun for three hours. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>60 minutes worth of harvesting with lfg on and several shouts/oocs/channel chats begging for a group somewhere <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />     gee... I sure wish the harclave timer weren't so long.    Guess I'll kill these weak greenies since that's all I can handle these days without getting slaughtered.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>60 minutes more of lfg and killing greenies.. gaining about 1 percent of exp.  Gosh.. I wish the harclave timer weren't so long.  Or well, of course it would be nice to find a group...   Hmm maybe harclave is a bad thing.. they say everyone is playing it so much they don't group.  Out of curiosity I do a /who all 50 60.   45 players... hmmm ... not in harclave.. not in harclave..   oh.. well there's 3 people in harclave.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is there's no groups to be had not because of harclave, but because THERE"S NOBODY TO PLAY WITH.    Sigh.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another 60 minutes.. and the boredom is worse than ever and FINALLY I can do another harclave.   Yay I got 5 percent exp and some actual loot.  OH but now I might as well log off cause I sure as heck am not going to find a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THIS IS HOW IT IS guys.   And this is how it will be if the change goes live.  You still will NOT find anyone to group with.   People are too busy looking for rares.  Or tradeskilling.   Or playing with their 6 person clique.  Or their best buddy as a duo. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game is broken.   Taking away harclave is just going to break it even more. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want to group.  I do.  I would love to be able to have a bit of challenge, grouping with 5 other people... taking on a dungeon and make some good loot doing it.   But it's just not going to happen.  Sony didn't set it up that way.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Caldar on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:28 PM</span>

[Bobben]

<DIV>Moorgard:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this was a great change, but I have one question: Since people can only do this once per level now, is there any chance you can set the loot table back to what it was when Splitpaw first came out?  Would be nice for everyone to have a chance to run this "fun" zone the way it was originally.</DIV>

[D]

<P>kend, some ppl here seem to be stuck on the premise that Harclave is the only solo zone..I think the reason why is obvious at this point...</P> <P>Before Harclave, I remember ppl sharing great solo spots with other players at different levels, and there were many thread posts about good solo spots.</P> <P>There was solo life before Harclave, and will be after. ppl seem to not understand that Harclave is NOT going away. </P> <P>Message Edited by DPF on <SPAN class=date_text>11-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:16 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by DPF on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 PM</span>

[eland]

<DIV>While I don't expect to see any sort consensus with regards to the changes to Harclaves, I do feel there are a couple of important issues that need to be addressed.  They have been mentioned by a number of people, but I'll reiterate them here:</DIV> <DIV>1.  For those who are looking to complete Harclave for the first time to earn their gem, this change imposes a serious barrier, particularly to the solo oriented player.</DIV> <DIV>2.  For players that have reached the level cap, this change closes off a popular piece of content permanently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both of these issues are pretty substantial design flaws within the proposed system of one attempt per level.  I do feel that it is important that some sort of work-around be added in these cases.  I'll offer a few possible solutions:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>1.  For those who are looking to complete Harclave for the first time to earn their gem, this change imposes a serious barrier, particularly to the solo oriented player:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>- A possible solution here would be to remove the once-per-level restriction if the player has not completed Harclave and does not have his shard.  In order to prevent using contined intentional failure of the first attempt as an exploit, a significant reset timer could be added.</DIV> <DIV>- Reduce the requirements for getting the splitpaw gem, so that they do not include Harclaves.  Alternatively, one or more of the quests available in the upper tunnel could provide credit toward getting the gem.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>2.  For players that have reached the level cap, this change closes off a popular piece of content permanently.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>- Remove the level restriction for max level players, and add a reuse timer instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no doubt that a lot of consideration and data analysis went into this change.  I won't debate whether the change is good or bad for the game overall.  However, those two points in particular need to be addressed.</DIV>

[TheyLi]

<DIV>Well, maybe Harclave did need to be toned down a bit, but reducing it to one shot per level is far too extreme a change, especially at higher levels when it really doesn't give that much exp for your time anymore (after 40 you start getting less than 20% per run without vitality). A better change to harclave would be to give it a longer re-entry timer like 24 hours, and leave it as repeatable. That way, people could no longer powerlevel exclusively in it, but casual players could still benefit from it. If you reduce it to a once-per-level event without increasing the exp & loot inside it, it is only going to have negative effects on the game:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) A change like this makes it seem like SOE is taking away solo leveling options to try and force people to group, and that's not a good idea. This is an undeniable fact: There are always going to people who play solo 99% of the time, and the ones who "powerleveled" in Harclave exclusively are just going to move to a different solo exp area rather than grouping, or perhaps a different game that is more solo-friendly, so this change will not have the desired effect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Casual players who felt this was their only way to level at a decent rate to keep up with their friends/guild will feel alienated. Case in point: there are 3 people in my guild who either work two jobs or work & go to school at the same time, and they just don't have enough time to go wait around hours to get a good exp group going, and they level slowly as a result. All of them were considering leaving the game, but about a month ago I convinced them to buy the Splitpaw expansion and extend their subscriptions, and Harclave gave them a revitalized interest in the game & they actually starting leveling once or twice a week again, but now i'm positive at least two of them will /cancel after this nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) This change shows a disturbing decision to cater to a small minority of hardcore whiners rather than to those who make up the bulk of the population. There will be thousands of players who won't even realize this nerf is coming until the day of the patch because they don't read or post on the boards. There is a small contingent of board trolls who have been "campaigning" for a harclave nerf, and its pretty sad to see SOE giving in to them and sticking the shaft to people who only have a few hours to play here & there. The reality is that the only people who wanted Harclave nerfed are those who play 6-10+ hours a day and pretty much lack a concept of time; to them it doesn't matter if this leveling option is removed, because they can sit in a group all day long or grind elsewhere 8 hours a day anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope some consideration is given to this issue before LU16 is put into the game, because I think most players would agree that a permenant lock-out after one attempt is too extreme of a change. As I said above, a 24, 36 or 48 hour re-entry timer would be more fair, to prevent the aforementioned powerleveling but still giving casual players a place to gain exp when they log in.</DIV>

[Sem]

<FONT color=#ff0000>What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with?</FONT> <DIV> <HR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am ambivalent about the change but I do see a great irony in it and particularly in this reasoning for it.    Will we see a future patch which only allows logging into EQ2 for a set small amount of hours per week because, after all, we're all sitting around with our heads tucked into a computer instead of being out and about living our real lives?</DIV>

[Twizzel]

<DIV>Just another nail in the coffin to drive more players away.  Yes, there are other places to solo, however there are not other places to solo that you can easily get to (cast a spell, instantly at zone), and where the content scales to your level.  Oh, and where you don't have to worry about KSers or obnoxious other players in OOC, etc.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, give me some examples of zones or areas I can get to to solo in seconds, where I won't be bothered by other players...anyone?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before anyone starts, MMO does NOT mean group only, it means massive multiplayer online...not that they must group.  So the silly people who like to say go play an off line RPG don't get it....off line RPGs don't have dynamic content like an MMORPG....the Halloween events were a good example...do you thing there were Halloween events in my Baldur's Gate RPG?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, if SOE is really worried about people going back to grouping, get rid of the stuff the CU brought on to Guardians and Templars...perhaps then we'll quit soloing our Assassins and Swashbucklers and go back to group support...</DIV>

[thorvang]

great blah blah in this thread... harclave has been one single zone which granted way too much exp for single players. repeatable harclave has been a bug by design. just don't complain about this bug being removed.

[darkshm]

<div></div><div></div>I'm personally so glad they're finally doing this, Harclave was flat-out silly.  There are *plenty* of ways and areas for "casual" players to solo aside from Harclave, Norrath is huge.  Harclave's rewards were just too good, those with a competitive streak felt almost compelled to rerun Harclave with their alts just to keep up with everyone else monetarily... it certainly did impact prices.  The fact is that any new content that singlehandedly trivializes time and energy spent on previous content will inherently alter the entire game, from experience gains to market prices.  The name of the game is balance being that it is, after all, a game. I could see reducing the lockout timer to once a day perhaps being more fair to those less willing to venture into the dark areas on their maps.  Personally though if I never see Harclave again (and even better don't feel that I'm "missing out" by not farming it w/ my alts) I'll be elated.  Just my opinion obviously... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by darkshmoo on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:27 PM</span>

[Twizzel]

Of course, if you could get halfway decent loot in other areas of the game, I doubt you would find folks continually running Harclave's, buff or not.  Darkshmoo probably hit the nail on the head in that many rerun it to keep up monetarily...perhaps if there were other ways to do that, folks would try it?

[Incedio]

<P>I am split on this topic really. On one hand I WANT to see the group game come back to EQ2, but at the same time I do not want to see solo players have their options reduced even more. I personally do not want to solo 100% of the time and I want to see places like CT / RV / DFC in a group. Right now that is just not going to happen, and it's quite honestly not the players fault that you guys screwed up your zones so badly. There are not enough players around to support lower level groups. I have NEVER EVER EVER in my 32 levels been invited to go do a dungeon. I have never seen a group looking for more players for XXX dungeon. Every dungeon that I have zoned into has 1 or 2 upper level players duoing or a high level farming in it thats it, other than these few players dungeons are a GHOST TOWN. What players there are in my level range seem to me at least to prefer soloing or duoing with a friend. Heck, I very rarely even see players looking to group up to hunt in outdoor zones. I would hope that the Harclave change and the loot changes would help drive players towards grouping but we both know that it will not.</P> <P>I am not sure where the whole idea of ^ ^ ^ mobs came from but to me it is a horrible change from EQ1. I absolutely despise the fact that I can be soloing, minding my own buisness and a ^ ^ ^ mob comes out of no where and 2 shot me. Or the fact that a lot of the mobs for solo quests are sitting in the middle of ^, ^ ^ & ^ ^ ^ agressive mobs. I know that you have made a lot of progress in the revamping of zones to make them more solo friendly but I still can not for the life of me figure out why the hell ^, ^^ and ^^^ mobs still exist. You already have bonus XP for grouping, you already get better loot grouping why not get rid of up arrow mobs in outdoor zones and leave them where they belong in GROUP DUNGEONS? I know that this post is sliding off topic here however from my perspective the complete pain in the [Removed for Content] that this game is to solo outdoors is why people do the Harclave. This coupled with some of the quests in game that require you to kill X of XXX mob when there is only 1 or 2 of X mob in the ENTIRE zone is completely rediculos. (Hello, Steelhoof Sniper?!)</P> <P>Personally, I was never a huge fan of the Harclave. It may have something to do with it taking me at least 10 trys across my 20s to finally complete the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing. If you seriously make this a once a level lockout then you really need to rethink how you are going to handle people who are mearly trying to earn trust. Because I would be seriously annoyed if I died in the Harclave and could not go back until the next level.</P> <P>Instead of nerfing the Harclave maybe you should look at the over all reason why people are doing it in the 1st place and try to correct the deficiencys in your game overall. There is a reason that players tend to gravitate towards the path of least resistance and that reason is how crappy the solo game is outside of the Harclave right now.</P>

[Elyssia]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caldar wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm looking at this three page long thread and thinking this is basically a petition.  </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I started this thread when I spotted the change on the test server notes and it is NOT a petition.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not a Harclave's junkie - I've been in there a few times but not on a regular basis like many people seem to do. </DIV> <DIV>Yes it's fun to suddenly get this buff that makes you super-powerful - but it's fun because it's a novelty.</DIV> <DIV>The idea of doing this day in day out kills the game for me which is why I have chosen not to keep repeating the zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I like this change - maybe now more people will choose to group and interact. Because I know I've been in the Splitpaw Den many times looking for a group for the other zones and just see everyone making a beeline for Harclaves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hence why I happily dodged the nerf bat - because I'm not one of those farmers who this will affect <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Elyssia on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 AM</span>

[Tanit]

Good change. <div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<P>Pray tell Devs,</P> <P>What are the good places to solo for low dps classes, like say a Templar. </P> <P>I liked Harclaves for my templar. Lots of grouped mobs in there. Why I felt almost as good as a Fury in there fighting. I could kill stuff before I fell asleep. Post 50 I havent touched it, but I went in there a bit in my 40's. </P> <P>You know it felt good to actually be able to kill something. Just the other day, I was running through Antonica, going to FMG to get my ring from the dragon there for my Prismatic. A funny thing happened. I seen a level 13 gnoll on the way there, so I load up my biggest nuke (375), and let it fly. It lived laughed and attacked me.</P> <P>BTW I am a 56 Templar. Good to know mobs 40 levels under me cant be killed</P> <P> </P>

[Impiouseq2]

<DIV>I personally think this change is horrible.  If you think there are too many players spending all thier time in Harclave then YOU have failed to realize what your playerbase wants.  Here are some reasons I love Harclave:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-No need to buy Food and Drink, prices are outrageous.  Having little to no downtime is a huge plus.</DIV> <DIV>-I can go afk at my liesure, with no risk of dying.  I'm not saying that I can autoattack and go AFK, because I will surely die that way as a wizard.</DIV> <DIV>-I can log on and instantly teleport to splitpaw for FREE and it is about 5 second walk to the instance, where it always adjust to my current level.  Instant action, another huge plus.</DIV> <DIV>-Pretty good loot, and best of all I don't have to worry about the RNG screwing me over, it's all mine.</DIV> <DIV>-I can actually make it through without uber gear, without much worry about dying.  Sure the experience gained is not as great as if I were soloing elsewhere, but I run a very high risks of dying if I fight in other places.  Nothing is funner than trying to hunt solo and having to worry constantly about where those Heroic ^^^'s are that have been mixed in with the solo monsters that can one hit kill me, and all of the other roaming agro solo monsters to boot.  I don't have to worry about that crap in Harclave.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as for this statement, "Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off.", I know exactly where they are coming from.  That is thier "polite" way of saying how crappy group experience is compared to what they can do in Harclave.  Instant action, steady experience gain with little to no downtime, no waiting on other people to progress, no one going afk to change baby diapers, no travel time or any of that crap. And this just reinforces my statement about what you have not been delivering to the playerbase.." Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant."  It's because a large percentage of people would rather just solo Harclave at thier liesure than deal with all the trouble that comes along with grouping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And please don't tell me how I should be spending my online playtime with statements like this "What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with?"  I'll tell you straight up what would have happened with my playtime if it had not been for Harclave.  For one, I was getting totally burnt out in my 30's due to not being able to find a group, not being able to find adequate equipment, and generally, not having FUN.  So after reading all about the Splitpaw Saga, I paid for it and found the game enjoyable again.  I pretty much stayed in Splitpaw rotating through Prank, harclave and the solo arena, *GASP* Enjoying Myself!  I finally earned enough coin to purchase a steed, and then moved onto other content.  Now, to think that you are going to nerf this to oblivion is absurd.  I dare you to start playing on a fresh new account from the Isle of Refuge and see how enjoyable and populated the lower end game is.  It isn't.  There are not enough players of all level ranges to accomidate being able to log in and instantly find a group, it's just not going to happen.  Not only that, but you will not be able to afford to buy the equipment that may or may not be available to lower levels.  Harclave gives people a decent, reliable place to enjoy thier time and make considerable progress, both in experience and financially.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Impiouseq2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I personally think this change is horrible.  If you think there are too many players spending all thier time in Harclave then YOU have failed to realize what your playerbase wants.  Here are some reasons I love Harclave:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-No need to buy Food and Drink, prices are outrageous.  Having little to no downtime is a huge plus.</DIV> <DIV>-I can go afk at my liesure, with no risk of dying.  I'm not saying that I can autoattack and go AFK, because I will surely die that way as a wizard.</DIV> <DIV>-I can log on and instantly teleport to splitpaw for FREE and it is about 5 second walk to the instance, where it always adjust to my current level.  Instant action, another huge plus.</DIV> <DIV>-Pretty good loot, and best of all I don't have to worry about the RNG screwing me over, it's all mine.</DIV> <DIV>-I can actually make it through without uber gear, without much worry about dying.  Sure the experience gained is not as great as if I were soloing elsewhere, but I run a very high risks of dying if I fight in other places.  Nothing is funner than trying to hunt solo and having to worry constantly about where those Heroic ^^^'s are that have been mixed in with the solo monsters that can one hit kill me, and all of the other roaming agro solo monsters to boot.  I don't have to worry about that crap in Harclave.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as for this statement, "Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off.", I know exactly where they are coming from.  That is thier "polite" way of saying how crappy group experience is compared to what they can do in Harclave.  Instant action, steady experience gain with little to no downtime, no waiting on other people to progress, no one going afk to change baby diapers, no travel time or any of that crap. And this just reinforces my statement about what you have not been delivering to the playerbase.." Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant."  It's because a large percentage of people would rather just solo Harclave at thier liesure than deal with all the trouble that comes along with grouping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And please don't tell me how I should be spending my online playtime with statements like this "What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with?"  I'll tell you straight up what would have happened with my playtime if it had not been for Harclave.  For one, I was getting totally burnt out in my 30's due to not being able to find a group, not being able to find adequate equipment, and generally, not having FUN.  So after reading all about the Splitpaw Saga, I paid for it and found the game enjoyable again.  I pretty much stayed in Splitpaw rotating through Prank, harclave and the solo arena, *GASP* Enjoying Myself!  I finally earned enough coin to purchase a steed, and then moved onto other content.  Now, to think that you are going to nerf this to oblivion is absurd.  I dare you to start playing on a fresh new account from the Isle of Refuge and see how enjoyable and populated the lower end game is.  It isn't.  There are not enough players of all level ranges to accomidate being able to log in and instantly find a group, it's just not going to happen.  Not only that, but you will not be able to afford to buy the equipment that may or may not be available to lower levels.  Harclave gives people a decent, reliable place to enjoy thier time and make considerable progress, both in experience and financially.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/sarcasm on</P> <P>That is so not true, why I have a 32 almost 33 warlock who has like 5 master spells, the rest are ALL Adept 3's, he wears fabled gear and all and has never gone into splitpaw. Who needs split paw when you can have your broken healer (Templar) hand plats down to a REAL Class, that can solo effectively, and group effectively. Who can kill and rarely gets hurt. Yellow solo mobs, I chain pull them. </P> <P>/end sarcasm</P> <P>That is what I did, I grinded up to 56 with a healer, a Templar, and figured out I can solo and make maybe 2-3% an hour (especially since they stealth nerfed Tears Grifters quests). So now there is no way for me to effectively solo. So I created an alt, a very expensive and fun alt. A warlock who needs nothing, Why? He is level 32, has all minimum adept 3 spells, sitting on over a dozen rares, has fabled gear, Heck he already has 3 pearls and 2 vanadiums waiting for him, plus Rubies, and Opals and much much more. When ever he needs anything, it is time to log on the healer, I go and farm for him. It is like power leveling, but more fun. </P> <P>You want to know what the problem with splitpaw is? The problem with Splitpaw is NOTHING. The problem lies in killing ^^^ nameds and recieving a 1/6 chance at crap loot. The problem lies in that a ^^^ gives 22 silver to split 6 ways and a solo creature gives 22 silver for one person. The problem is you kill alot of Raid mobs and have a chest with 2 or 3 items. Here is a hint, Heroic Chests should have 2-3 items. If a solo T6 mob carries 25-30 silver on average, a heroic should carry 1.3 to 1.8 gold on average. and if chests only have coin on it, make it ching out 3 - 6 gold. XP should be better for Heroics and the groups that take them out, but you know what, I would take little xp and great loot.</P> <P>Poets Palace was a great zone until the drop rate was nerfed. 10-18% xp a run, and it had like a 25% chance for a master but you had 8 chances. That was great. Those are the zones people look for. High Risk, High Reward. You know what, that zone was great for one thing, I love Master chests. Make more class and archtype specific fabelds, and make them no trade and boost that precentage up in zones like that, I guarantee it improves grouping.  Make stuff like master spells tradeable though. Hey you could even increase Legendary drops. Dont make them the exclusion of uber raid guilds anymore.</P> <P>I have seen one GREAT raid zone in this game, any guesses? SoTL. Talk about a slug fest. Epic high 50's mobs, over 100 of them, all in groups you have to plow through to get to the end. Where are Raid zones like that? That is content that hooks people. </P> <P>Equalize Risk vs. Reward, and you wont have Harclave junkies. </P>

[songrider]

<P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>-------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>*** The Splitpaw Saga ***<BR><BR></FONT></STRONG>- Sarchel the Storyteller will now only offer the Trial of Harclave quest to each adventurer once per level.</P> <P>=========================================</P> <P> </P> <P>So many businesses make this same mistake.  If the customer finds something they really really like, do NOT just remove it.  Go ahead and tone it down a bit if you think it is "game breaking".  A 24 hour timer would be fine.  A couple day timer might be ok.  Even cut down the loot table a tad.  Or cut down the XP a tad.  Make the zone slightly less appealing in whatever way you need to and the problem will fix itself.</P> <P>Q:  This zone is just too popular, what should we do?</P> <P>A:   Effectively remove it from the game. </P> <P>Customer:  Say what??</P> <P>Don't remove something that your customers really love.  You want to be a customer driven, customer responsive company - just listen to the responses here...  This is another case of fine tuning with a sledge hammer.</P> <P>That is not the way to create happy customers, loyal customers, or perpetual customers.  This response is a faaaaaaaaaaaaaar over-reaction.  Please reconsider putting in a timer instead if the zone is too popular. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>songrider wrote:<p><strong><font color="#ffcc00">-------------------------------------------------------------------------</font></strong></p> <p><strong><font color="#ffcc00">*** The Splitpaw Saga ***</font></strong>- Sarchel the Storyteller will now only offer the Trial of Harclave quest to each adventurer once per level.</p> <p>=========================================</p> <p>So many businesses make this same mistake.  If the customer finds something they really really like, do NOT just remove it.  Go ahead and tone it down a bit if you think it is "game breaking".  A 24 hour timer would be fine.  A couple day timer might be ok.  Even cut down the loot table a tad.  Or cut down the XP a tad.  Make the zone slightly less appealing in whatever way you need to and the problem will fix itself.</p> <p>Q:  This zone is just too popular, what should we do?</p> <p>A:   Effectively remove it from the game. </p> <p>Customer:  Say what??</p> <p>Don't remove something that your customers really love.  You want to be a customer driven, customer responsive company - just listen to the responses here...  This is another case of fine tuning with a sledge hammer.</p> <p>That is not the way to create happy customers, loyal customers, or perpetual customers.  This response is a faaaaaaaaaaaaaar over-reaction.  Please reconsider putting in a timer instead if the zone is too popular.  </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> You know, there's something to be said for looking at why it's so popular, and working from there -- but "once per level" is still at least 30 runs through it, if we accept that Splitpaw is levels 20-30.  30 chances to try something is a far cry from "removal from the game."</span><div></div>

[Cemi]

<P>This is great news, now if only we could get some server consolidation so it would be easier to find groups. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Twizzel]

<P>Since you brought up server consolidation, I'll ask this question.  At least on Najena, everytime I do hit SP, whether it's Harclave, Flitch's, or the Arena, there are only 5-6 people in there, so probably only another 5-6 in each of the zones...how in the world does this affect grouping?  Do those 30 or so folks make that much difference throughout the gameworld grouping environment?  I mean, I could see if there were 500-600 people always there (assuming there are 5k plus on a server actually playing as I've seen alleged), but 30 or so?  So the theory is that running those 30 or so folk out of SP or Harclave's is going to fix server populations and the problems with finding a group overall?</P> <P>As for people actually leaving groups to go to Harclave's to finish a level, might this be because the group they are in is moving too slow for them.  I know nothing irritates me more than joining a group and then the group taking 2 hours to figure out what they want to do (or wait around because the group leader thinks they have to find a certain class).  Or perhaps they just don't like the current group dynamic or someone in the group?  How someone speculates a member of their group left solely for Harclave's is beyond me...even if the departing member said that's what they were doing, perhaps the group leader should try and determine the actual reasons...since we have been told repeatedly that group exp far outweighs solo exp.  Of course, the group actually has to be doing something for that theory to work, and not sitting around discussing what they are going to do.  When I solo, which admittedly is now 95% of the time I am logged in, I can immediately begin working on my goals for that session and accomplish what I set out to do in the time I have allotted myself to play (assuming I am successful in my endeavors).  Even if I am not successful, at least I got to try it versus sitting around LFG for two hours and logging off, or having a group looking for a particular class unsuccessfully then logging off.  </P> <P>Fix it where I can log on, find a functional group within 10 minutes that is actually going to do something within the next 10 minutes, and perhaps I won't have to resort to soloing 95% of the time.  Well, and then there is the matter of getting screwed by the lotto system everytime I group (I still maintain people know how to manipulate it).  </P> <P>Back on topic...anyone, Dev or otherwise, who thinks limiting Harclave is going to fix this games institutional problems is not seeing the many elephants standing in the middle of Antonica....</P>

[QuaiCon]

I think thats a good change i have seen too many players just doing harclave over and over. <div></div>

[Gungo]

I think 3-5 day lockout would be more then enuff to stop people from powerleveling in harclaves and reaping massive rewards from increased dugeons loots.

[Goldenpaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quaiky wrote:<BR>I think thats a good change i have seen too many players just doing harclave over and over. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And this affects you how?</P> <P>No seriously how does this affect you?</P> <P>They aren't grouping? Oh.  And they are doing something they enjoy or are able to tolerate? Oh.</P> <P>I hope the people this hurts are able to do the other splitpaw area's and see they are able to get xp, but this is not acceptable at all.</P> <P>At what point can we ask for a refund of our money Moorgard? I mean this is -NOT- the Adventure Pack that was advertised, yes the content can always change, but if you sell me a Ford, and then make it into a Geo Tracker, do I not have the right to get a refund of my money?</P> <P>If you are telling the truth Moorgard, IF this is the real reason you guys are doing this, then OFFER MONEY BACK for all of us who bought Splitpaw Saga with the expectation that if I was to go through as an alt, this would be as vialable an option for me to do, as it was when I first bought the Saga.</P> <P>Bait and Switch baby, smoke and mirrors.</P> <P>Good job.</P>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cowdenicus wrote: <p>Poets Palace was a great zone until the drop rate was nerfed. 10-18% xp a run, and it had like a 25% chance for a master but you had 8 chances. That was great. Those are the zones people look for. High Risk, High Reward. You know what, that zone was great for one thing, I love Master chests. Make more class and archtype specific fabelds, and make them no trade and boost that precentage up in zones like that, I guarantee it improves grouping.  Make stuff like master spells tradeable though. Hey you could even increase Legendary drops. Dont make them the exclusion of uber raid guilds anymore.</p> <p><font color="#ffff99">Poets palace is no risk, good reward. </font><font color="#ffff99">Theres absolutely no risk involved, so obviously it can't have great loot. Although we got 3 masters there today, which is too much imo for such an easy zone.</font> </p> <p>I have seen one GREAT raid zone in this game, any guesses? SoTL. Talk about a slug fest. Epic high 50's mobs, over 100 of them, all in groups you have to plow through to get to the end. Where are Raid zones like that? That is content that hooks people. </p> <p><font color="#ffff99">They're in living tombs, shimmering citadel and </font><font color="#ffff99">poets palace. </font></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote>Cowdenicus wrote:<p>Pray tell Devs,</p> <p>What are the good places to solo for low dps classes, like say a Templar. </p> <p><font color="#ffff99">Pff, overland zones have tons of solo mobs. Noticed even dungeons like runnyeye have them.</font> </p><p>You know it felt good to actually be able to kill something. Just the other day, I was running through Antonica, going to FMG to get my ring from the dragon there for my Prismatic. A funny thing happened. I seen a level 13 gnoll on the way there, so I load up my biggest nuke (375), and let it fly. It lived laughed and attacked me. </p><p><font color="#ffff99">So you couldnt 1 shot a lvl13 mob wow big deal... If you wanted big nukes then a priest isnt the class for you. At least I picked a defiler so i could heal, that his highest (lvl59) nuke does 300 dmg isnt important.</font> </p> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Dawnrise]

<P>Another issue that I just confirmed today is the matter of being chucked out of zone upon death.  </P> <P>The first time I died in Harclave's this morning (died to heroics after falling off the plank, before I got the buff), I could get the quest again, recover my shard from the entrance, repair and go back in, all within a few minutes.</P> <P>The second time I died falling off the plank, after I got the buff, was to falling damage.  Due to the recent change in that you no longer leave a shard behind when falling foul of a natural disaster, there was no shard for me to collect at the entrance, and so the timer is now at 4 hours before I can get back in.</P> <P>If this proposed change does go through, that will mean if you die due to falling in there, you will no longer be able to get back in until you gain another level.  Utterly preposterous! :smileymad:</P> <DIV>Deep</DIV>

[Kir]

all I have to say is, if you are going to nerf the one content place I could go when I cant find a group, because you say you would rather have me out grouping so that zone feels more like an event then a place to level is: you better do something to get more subscribers in my level ranges so I have people to group with, or start giving me options that are as good if not better then hardclave to keep my getting my little carrots or else im going to burn out and quit.  bottom line, no whining no threats, just telling you how it is.  With out good options for the solo player, that gives good returns you will lose what remainging characters you have.  Instead of forcing groups on us, let us the players decide how we want to play for our 15 bucks a month,  Groups arent not happening because hard clave is good exp, groups arent happening because the player populations are low enough that there is too much spread between levels for people to find a decent group of players to group with. <div></div>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<P>Good riddance to bad Harclave's...</P> <P>If there was any other quest that gave as much exp and as much loot and was finishable in as short a period of time as this one, it would have been fixed long ago. This isn't a matter of forcing people to go do something else, it's a matter of (finally) bringing Harclave's in-line with EVERY other quest in the game. Heavens knows, they even tried messing with alot of things before resorting to this. The exp in the zone, the loot drops, the lockout timer... None of it worked. The quest -continued- to be abused, and now they're being very gracious and  allowing you to do it 40ish times through the course of your adventuring career if you so choose.</P>

[Kir]

<span><blockquote><hr>Pathin Merrithay wrote:<p>Good riddance to bad Harclave's...</p> <p>If there was any other quest that gave as much exp and as much loot and was finishable in as short a period of time as this one, it would have been fixed long ago. This isn't a matter of forcing people to go do something else, it's a matter of (finally) bringing Harclave's in-line with EVERY other quest in the game. Heavens knows, they even tried messing with alot of things before resorting to this. The exp in the zone, the loot drops, the lockout timer... None of it worked. The quest -continued- to be abused, and now they're being very gracious and  allowing you to do it 40ish times through the course of your adventuring career if you so choose.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>or, instead of being content with the lets nerf something to bring it inline with something else, how about we make other zones as "attractive" as hardclave so people WANT TO USE THEM.  Hardclave worked because 1) it was fun 2) it was good exp and 3) it had decent loot.  It sure wasnt the best loot, I could get better exp in groups, but the fact remains on most servers you are less likely to find a decent group, then you are not so hardclave was the fix. dont change whats working, because you do not want to fix whats broken.</span><div></div>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quaiky wrote:<BR>I think thats a good change i have seen too many players just doing harclave over and over. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And your money is more important than everyone else's?  What *you* want out of *your* time spent in EQ2 is more important than what *I* want out of my time?</P> <P>Solo or husband/wife duos are termed 'antisocial'.  Maybe those that feel the need to group with others should have a term applied to them.  I think 'Socially Dependent' is a good one.  It fits well seeing as how you have to *depend* on others to have fun.</P> <P>"dammit, my neighbor just mows his lawn, all by himself while I stand here waving my arms at him, trying to get him to come over and help me mow my lawn.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] him for being so *antisocial*, doesnt he *know* that I *need* him in order for *me* to have fun?'</P>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris wrote:<SPAN><BR><BR>instead of being content with the lets nerf something to bring it inline with something else, how about we make other zones as "attractive" as hardclave so people WANT TO USE THEM.  Hardclave worked because 1) it was fun 2) it was good exp and 3) it had decent loot.  It sure wasnt the best loot, I could get better exp in groups, but the fact remains on most servers you are less likely to find a decent group, then you are not so hardclave was the fix.<BR><BR>dont change whats working, because you do not want to fix whats broken.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Except that Harclave's never -WAS- working. That much should be clear from the multiple and repeated attempts they made to fix the blatant issues with it (Namely a solo quest that provided better loot and exp for your output then anywhere else in the game. By ALOT. This wasn't just a slight edge here... it was Harclave or nothing, which is why there is so much debate about this change) Harclave was fun the first 5 or 6 times... After that, I'd call you an ourright liar if you had fun going through the exact same zone in the exact same way, over and over and over again with no change some 50ish times. The exp wasn't just good... it was completely insane and out of whack because you were killing groups of mobs you had no right taking just by dint of the Harclave Buff. The loot, for the time invested, as also crazy. I made easily half a plat off the bloody -trash- drops when it first came out. Solo.<BR>

[Giral]

<P>EQ2 game is runnin along ok,  people are having a chance to level and see much of game content, there are a decent amount of people in various level ranges . ENTER HARCLAVE : BAM no more level 30 people around : ( BAM the zones are empty ; ( BAM there is a ton of players at LvL 50 , </P> <P>now lets cry theres nobody to group with at lower level MUHWHAHAHAHA wonder why ???? </P> <P>they even removed all the boat rides and zone restrictions in a chance to not have to nerf Harclave , but why go even TRY soloing or grouping  in a zone you might DIE in .  O no GoodNess gracous me , death in a adventure fantasy video game ? ridiculous exp debt as it is and now you can buy your shards back : ( man this game is turnin into a damned Walt Disney game for people that seriously dont want anything else than to go to end game with no risk and Great reward for little effort ; ( </P> <P>realisticly tho come on Poeple the zone is obviosly a serious problem for an MMO , its a solo game instance that single handedly has wiped out an entire MID level range in the game 30 to 50 befor harclave there was alot of players workin on leveling to 50 , now there all gone or in harclave leveling ; ( .</P> <P>level 60 is game cap now for what a year and there is so many to 60 or near 60 already that the game is giong to Burn itself out new players can level to 60 in a couple months in a game that could take them a year to get to 60 , Those that Really want to just level away can reach 60 in a couple months without Harclave, the game isn't called EVERLEVEL its EVERQUEST , level 60 is just a NUMBER , there is no real reason to RUSH there as once your there and do what can be done there isn't much left to do , Hence all the level 50's complaining befor DOF, </P> <P>BURN to 60 BABY and then BURNOUT and leave game : ) </P> <P>CLOSE HARCLAVE for renovation : ) </P> <P> </P>

[Caldar]

<DIV>This is to everyone who says "oh oh there's no groups because I see everyone making a beeline to harclave."  I say you aren't paying enough attention.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I sat there and /who'd levels 30 - 60.   10 levels at a time.     At 5pm on bazaar (which, granted, isn't the most populated server nor the most populated time) there were 210 people levels 30 - 60.    Out of that 210, I scrolled through and found only one person in harclave.    -1- person. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take away harclaves and.. guess what... you'll have a whole -1- person extra to group with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try it, /who leveles 31 40, 41 50 and 51 60...  now open your log.. and take a look <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (I think you can do it that way, I did it by just scrolling) now... copy paste the /whos... and search for harclave.   I'll bet you'll find under 10 people in harclave.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(btw.. 233 players (31 - 60) on at 5pm on bazaar on a saturday.   Two people were in harclave and 3 were in splitpaw.  THAT"S IT.  5 people. )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Onil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nephiere wrote:<BR> <DIV>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with? Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It may not have been your motivation for revamping Harclaves, "Trying to hurt solo or casual players",  But it is the result that will be achieved. Anyone that has not completed The Trust quest series, can have one chance per level. Nowhere close to fair for those of us that havn't 'abused' the instance thouroughly. This will effectively reduce the amount of people that enter splitpaw and complete that quest series.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Whether its your intention or not, You must look at the effects it will have in reality, not the effects you intended it to do, Nerfing Harclaves, will make getting the shard a once per  level chance.</P> <P>How is that not hurting the casual or solo gamer? Intended or not, That's the reality of it. When I bought this game in November of last year, I didn't think it was a group mandatory game by all the advertisements put out by soe. Although with most of the changes since that november release, SOE has clearly shown this casual gamer that, A group IS mandatory as the solo friendly content continues to get altered to a point of near uselessness.</P> <P>Even the tone of your post indicates, Soe's desire to see people grouping instead of soloing..........."In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it."</P>

[Ookami-san]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually... I'm not sure you did.  There are several classes who got the bad end of the stick in the Combat changes and can't solo effectively.  Luckily, I'm a swashbuckler and I can solo fairly well.  But you will be hurting a small cross-section that you've already "hurt" with the combat changes. </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Interestingly, even you yourself seem to have fallen into the "habit" trap.  Guess what, that's not going to change.  People find comfort areas and they stick to them.  That's human nature.  It's not wrong.  Like water, people tend to find the path of least resistance.  If not Harclaves, it will be something else.... will you have to nerf that too?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Absolutely.  You normally play a bruiser, if I remember, so soloing and finding good solo areas aren't a problem.  Bruisers are gods now - tanking ability of a tank and dps of a dpser.  Consider that not all classes benefitted as much from the combat changes.  Again, I'm one of the lucky ones who can still solo efficiently... but many in my guild can't.  You're taking away a large portion of their enjoyment from the game - especially those who play in off hours and can't readily find groups.</P> <P>Those of us who can solo fairly well don't bother with harclaves.  We can make more money and better exp in places like Pillars of Fire, Clefts, etc.  But the casual, off-hours players are going to be hit hard.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You're not changing anything except location.  Grinders....grind.  That's what they do.  Casual players tend to do it because quests (even solo ones) tend to be impossible without a group or special access or something that the dev. team didn't think would affect the casual soloer.  Those that don't like tradeskilling sit there and grind... why... because there's nothing better to do when no one else in your guild is on.  Sad... but true.  I just spent 3 days while I was sick in Clefts because there was nothing reall worth doing.  The quests are lame and give no decent reward for the effort.  There are no decent solo mobs to kill to upgrade my equipment because the stuff that drop from it is worse than T5 stuff.  It's sad, but true... if I want to do anything, I need a full group, special access (Silent City, etc.) or a raid.... oh... I forgot... or I could go harvest mindlessly.</P> <P>You want people to stop going to Harclaves?!  Put in better rewards for quest, better loot drops for solo mobs... and more interesting, instanced solo dungeons.  You WERE on the right track for a while... but then you floundered with the instanced solo areas.  You did redeem yourself with Clefts, which is the best designed dungeon area I've been in.  You keep the solo content seperated from the group content so it's easy to do either.  Kudos for that.  I'd love to see more dungeons like that.  But more so, I'd like to see solo instanced dungeons/quests that SCALE and offer decent rewards.</P> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I hope you drop this.  Not for me... as I may have been in there twice (if that) since I did it the first time for my shard.  But for the casual gamers who didn't get the good side of the combat revisions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as hearing from a groupied "I'm almost to next level, just a quick run thru Harclaves".... Um... forgive me if I'm wrong, but you only level up once per level, right?  So if you can do Harclaves once per level... they can still do that, right?  So it really doesn't change anything... except how they get to the point of leveling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again... this doesn't affect me in the least, I just feel bad for some of my guildies from other coutries/timezones who I don't play with.  They'll find it MUCH harder I think to keep up with the rest of us, so on the rare occassions when I COULD group with them, I'll have to mentor down instead of enjoying new content or raids with them.<BR></DIV>

[Igu]

A lockout time (1-3 days) is a better solution. I dont really use HC very much, I might use it to finish off a level so this really would not impact me. But this planned change is not a good idea. Please reconsider it.

[vorek]

<P>First off....I cannot believe I read this whole thread. WOOT! for me!</P> <P> </P> <P>Now...onto the subject at hand.</P> <P>What is lost in this change? It does NOT NOT NOT NOT say that you cannot zone INTO the Trial of Harclave once per level, only that you cannot get the quest from Sarchel more than once per level. This is a nerf of such a small size that it is pathetic. I noticed the "Entrance Requirements" posts...and I will explain them to you: At this time on LIVE, without the quest, you cannot see your reuse timer. That is all. I have verified this works. After the 3 hours elapses, don't get the quest and go back in. The ONLY thing this changes is that you cannot "SIT" at the end and get the 3-4 blues of experience.</P> <DIV>I will be logging on this afternoon to test that this is the case on test, but I am willing to bet it is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only suggestion I would ask for SOE is that you actually give the player SOMETHING for completing the quest! A reward would be nice.</DIV>

[Magnus The Man]

the whole problem is this..........SOE is doing everything they can to try and keep people from power levelling up too quickly. Harclave is a big hole in their ability to do this. Power levelling up quickly means they have to create all of this new higher level content so people don't get bored and quite the game there is a ton of lower level content already built into the game. so if they can keep you levelling at a slower rate....it means less work for them immediately and they can work on higher level content at a slower rate i have 3 accounts with the highest level character at 32.  I have done harclave on several characters just for the access/recall quest.  It was fun the first couple of times. But after that...its was boring to me. I would much rather play the regular content of the game and level up normally then repeatedly run that quest.  I do see the value of having a solo zone. But, i do see the need to reduce the amount of xp that you can generate by non regulated repeated runs.  Harclave power levellers can essentially power up to the 40s and wind up not really being a good player b/c the risk in there is minimal. So then you have these higher level toons that can't play the character effectively in the rest of the game b/c they didn't have to learn how to play them for the bulk of the levels. i personally dont really care if there are masses of people doing this power levelling b/c it doesnt affect me very much. I have a few friends that i play with in a group and have fun doing it. I enjoy the content in the game that is outside of splitpaw power levelling.  It is much more interesting to me. In my opinion, the game was never really been meant for people to solo a large portion of the time. It is suppose to be a game of interaction with other people/characters. <div></div>

[TheyLi]

<DIV>Here's the $10,000 question for the people attacking harclave:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If the loot & exp in it is supposedly so much greater than anywhere else, why are there so few people <EM>actually</EM> using it? If its such fast & easy exp from 20-50, shouldn't the vast majority of people under 50 be in there "abusing" it doing 3-5 runs a day and never going elsewhere? The reality is, it's actually not that great, its as time consuming as leveling anywhere else is, and it gets boring after the first few runs. The money you get isnt any better than what you'd get elsewhere questing & harvesting, and once you run out of vitality and get past ~35, you start gaining 30% per run, then 25%, then 20%, then 15-18% in the 40's, and after 50 you only get 10% per run if you're lucky, for an effort that can take 1.5-2 hours for some classes. In the 40's you'd have to play a minimum of 8-10 hours to gain a level in harclave, not counting the 4 hour delays in between opening the ark  You people who claim its faster exp than anything else really don't know what you're talking about, because by your own admission you've only done it a few times and probably had vitality at the time, giving you double the normal exp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line is a lot of you are grossly exaggerating the supposed  "abuse" of harclave, there are rarely more than 3-5 at a time in splitpaw den on Nektulos server, and there's only a very small handful of people who level in Harclave exclusively on each server. It is in no way hurting the 'grouping effort', nor is it wrecking the economy, so stop the pretending.</DIV>

[tillerman35]

Just a suggestion from a non-involved individual whose subscription runs out tomorrow... OK, so you have all these one-liners in the release notes.  Sometimes you give a bit of made-up amusing background for the change, which I always liked seeing.  What was missing was really meaty explanations like that post.  Not all changes/fixes need lengthy explanations ("Spell X is no longer broken" is fairly self-explanatory), but I'm fairly certain the devs know which ones will generate the most "W-T-F???" type of responses. So my suggestion is that in the test server update notes you provide a link to the reasoning behind those "controversial" changes.  This would accomplish many things: 1. Fewer flames on the devs 2. Increased customer confidence, as people see that you're taking into account not only the technical but the human effects as well (or to put it another way, they see you're not just throwing crap out there to see what happens) 3. Better understanding of the behind-the-scenes mechanics of the game. You don't have to break role-playing or give up on the humor to do it, either.  That whole Harclaves explanation could have been told from the point of view of the quest giver, lamenting the need to tell the same story over and over to the same people in order to get them into the door and wondering about what they could have done with their lives in the meantime. <div></div>

[cattie br]

<DIV>I think that zone is fun for once in awhile when i want my guardian to feel godly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I liked the storyline too so i named a new iksar brawler on Butcherblock server Harclave! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV>I would like to retort to the reasons for changing this. To me, this looks like a case of seeing an effect, and assuming what the cause is.. then making a solution based off the assumption.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's some examples:</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I have honestly never seen this happen. Ever. Absolutely never! In fact, I've seen people sitting with LFG on while IN harclaves, and drop out of harclaves the instant they get a call to a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only time I've had people leave the group and go to harclaves is when the group was already mostly camping out, and we are down to 2 or 3 people in a place where we'd need a full 6. People use the same excuse to go craft too.. does that give a valid reason to nerf crafting? No.. you wouldn't think of it that way, so why assume the same thing here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a situation that seems so bizarre and infrequent, that I cannot see it happening enough to warrant the change.</DIV> <DIV>Also.. if you institute a 24 or 48 hour lockout timer, then it effectively stops this exact situation as well. Or at the very least, cuts it right down.. since the person either can't go in yet, or has to decide if it's worth leaving a group and certain xp with to go lock himself out of harclaves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>How can you know that's the sole reason for their sitting there AFK? I've left my character sitting outside harclaves after doing the quest, or sitting at the quest giver, lots of times! I left the character there because I didn't want to log off, but had to go eat something.. or read up on something online.. or go get groceries.</DIV> <DIV>I timed my play around things I needed to get done, I'm a casual player so leaving my character online while I deal with Real Life is not unheard of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not good to assume all the people sitting there AFK are just waiting for the harclaves timer, because this gives a false sense of demographics. I cannot count how often I've finished harclaves, ran off to do something for an hour or two, leaving my character as he's zoning back into splitpaw den, then came back and switched to another character to finish a quest, or craft, etc.</DIV> <DIV>So for those 2 hours, you'll see me there and assume I'm waiting for a timer... when it's just that I left the character there because I didn't feel like logging out (I intended to return).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't tell you what percentage of people are doing what I do, or actually leaving their toons there for the sole reason of waiting on the timer... but what I can tell you is that there aren't a lot of people doing it (I've seen maybe 2 or 3 on busy days on my server), and if there's even a percentage of folks like me doing what I do, then your assumption is causing a false problem that you felt the need to resolve.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime</FONT></DIV> <DIV>This is just more of the bad assumption. "Clearly" is stated like you knew without any doubt whatsoever, what the majority of people were doing on all servers at all times that this was happening. That's a bold statement, and a very very poor way of "fixing" assumed problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways.. enough about that. The real reason I have a problem with this is not because of the time structure involved... I couldn't care less if it only worked once per level.</DIV> <DIV>The problem is there's so many issues that could cheat you out of completing it that one time. Like lag issues dropping you out and causing you to lose your chance (leave the zone, lose the quest, can't get it again until you level). Or death while in the zone. Or the game hiccuping and dropping you to character select and out of the instance. Or a power outage on the client's part (weather storm, etc). Or video card overheats because it's a hot day and causes you to hitch and crash to desktop, etc. Or the learning curve issue that some folks mentioned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's so many things that can screw up and lock you out right now that implementing this change would really suck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can it somehow be changed to have it so you can only go in once per level if you complete the quest? If this is impossible (or too easily worked around, like crashing on purpose before clicking the chair), then maybe a very long lockout timer?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I sit down and play, I can level (without harclaves) more than once per day at the lower levels... and at least once every 2 days at 35-50. This would mean I'd be able to go into harclaves once every 24-48 hours anyways, at the levels that it'd be worth doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would alleviate people waiting AFK for timers (if that's their sole reason for doing it.. you may still see me just abandoning my character there still!), and it would also fix those that want to ditch a perfectly good group for harclaves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the very least, try out this intermediary step FIRST, as it's far less drastic. See if that works. If it doesn't, then perhaps the change to "once per level" is warranted, and institute it at that point. However, to go directly from 4 hours to "once per level" is akin to cutting off the leg because it has a disease... shouldn't we see if there's some way to save the leg first? We can always cut it off later...</DIV></DIV>

[Cowdenic]

put a 6 day timer on Harclave and have it frop a guaranteed master lol.

[OperationsX]

<DIV>Brillant indeed!! Much needed change!! Harclave is destroying the economy, poor scholars with the flood of adept 1 books! People are majorly leveling off of it, even when your out of vitality its the best thing to do in a days time solo ever! This will put people at level 50 in no time with little effort! WTG SOE, 2 thumbs up for this change! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My gosh I can't think of anything negative...oh wait, one little tiny detail ...can anyone say .........</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=4><EM>HALF A YEAR TOO LATE!?</EM></FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>seriously SOE what is the point of doing this now? The economy for the stuff that harclave dropped was already destroyed, the people who took advantage of PLing through harclaves and getting insane money for their level are already top level or past its usefulness cap (50+) and have already spent that insane money and effected the economy with it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG>Too little too late IMO</STRONG>. pointless change.</FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Its like if LU#20 came out and they decided 'Oh you know what, it IS a little too easy to level a tradeskiller with the way it currently is after the experience change, so we have decided to tune it down a tad, there it should once again provide a challange while still remaining fun to level...oh wait, that's odd, how come every artisan is  level 60?! /boggle' .......</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:56 PM</span>

[Flic]

<DIV>OMG, if this goes thru it sux bigtime!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a casual player with at most 2 hours a night to play.  Harclaves made advancement fun and possible, changing it to once a level makes the whole zone irrelevant and pointless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not over powering for the average player, I did it Sat night and went LD halway through....yeah great, get back on and I have a 3+ hour wait to do it again.....yeah thats REAL overpowering isnt it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What happens when you die or go linkdead after this change is made? is that it? no more Harclaves for you for another level?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a pathetic knee-jerk reaction to stop the hardcore gamers abusing it and once again it is casual gamers and the people that DONT abuse it that will suffer the most.  I enjoyed being able to do some harvesting and then porting straight to SP to run a Harclaves, I was my own master and didnt need to waste time trying to get a group happening or trying to find solo mobs to kill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harclaves made xp obtainable and fun for my 2 hours gameplay, hell, I have only ever completed it once after prolly 5 tries.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Come on SOE you can do better than this, why not make the reuse timer 48 hours per account or make it up to lvl 46 (or whatever) only, I am only lvl 27 and haven't yet had the benefits of Harclaves and now you are going to take that away from me.  Anything is better than once per level, it is there as an xp zone so let us xp in there!</DIV>

[retro_guy]

<P>I have to say that is this change goes live it will be a very poor move on the developers.</P> <P>This is a adventure pack that people have paid money for, why should they not be able to run the zone over and over again if they so desire.</P> <P>Personally I ran it about twice completely through and about 10 times invis to the boss mobs to get the loot (poor as they were), so I'm not too distressed about it myself.</P> <P>But in principal it's a bad way to handle something people have purchased, why not make a lock out instead of only being able to do the zone once per level?</P>

[Cowdenic]

because sages cannot make enough money with adept 3s for 12 classes right?

[Code2501]

<DIV>Moor,</DIV> <DIV>I've seriously done Harclaves about 7 times across 3 characters.. but if this change goes in i'll be anoyed greatly.</DIV> <DIV>There has surely got to be a better way to implement this so that my new 20's toons don't need to level between each attempt just so i can get my splitpaw port shard. Silly as it may seem but i have died in harclaves several times, had to port out a few and if that blocked me from doing the quest and hence blocked me from geting my port shard for another level.. ie. zone out and grind a level so i can redo the uppertunnels and try again...I would be feeling all kinds of hate toward the devs.</DIV> <DIV>Restrictions should ONLY apply if you have compleated the quest ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 Account household, both on 1st year EQ2 anniversary today with all exp and add packs on both. (in other words, loyal customers asking you to re-think this approach)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV>

[Badtidings]

<P>There's so many threads about this, but I want my 2 cp in the discussion, so I'm linking to my original response.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=76856#M76856" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=76856#M76856</A></P>

[Flic]

<P>Excellent post BadT (the linked one)</P> <P>Yet another example of the minority ruining it for everyone else.  I did have fun soloing Harclaves and just as I discovered it, it gets nerfed into oblivion. (I had ledt EQ2 until a mate told me about the whole Harclave setup, suddenly soloing wasnt a pointless, tedious exercise again)</P> <P>Was it overpowering for me? lets see.....have done it maybe 4 times.  Completed it once, LD'd another time and had to wait 3 hours+ to get back in (didnt bother), died a couple of times and fell off a plank on the way to shrooms another time.  That sound overpowering to you guys out there?  course not, it isnt.</P> <P>Even assuming I had completed it all 4 times, so what......I had a 3 hour lockout in between each try which means I could do it once a night before I went to bed.  How dare I think I can jump on and quickly get into an xp situation with little or no delay or problem and without needing to rely on other people.</P> <DIV>Yeah yeah, I know this is a MMORPG and grouping is a part of it but when I get 2 hours MAX to play even getting a guild group will usually knock off a quarter of that play time.....and thats on a good night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Throw us low level soloers a bone here SOE, Harclaves was my one decent means of progressing solo on weeknights and the main reason I came back to EQ2.  It wasnt easy and guaranteed xp or loots for me, one mistake = death just like everywhere else but it was FUN!!  </DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Flicko wrote:<BR> <P>Throw us low level soloers a bone here SOE, Harclaves was my one decent means of progressing solo on weeknights and the main reason I came back to EQ2.  It wasnt easy and guaranteed xp or loots for me, one mistake = death just like everywhere else but it was FUN!!  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Flicko,  might I suggest doing the progressive quests in Commonlands, Antonica, Thundering Steppes, Nektulos Forest, Enchanted Lands, and/or Zek.  All of those areas are filled with solo quests that can be done with only 1-2 hours to spare.</DIV>

[Fammit]

<span><font size="4"> Harclave's really needs to be nerfed badly</font>.<font color="#ff0000"> (puts on flame retardant clothing)</font> I've done harclave's once, and sure it was fun, got a few nice things, but that was it for me.  Don't get me wrong, I love to solo/duo, but come on, this is an MMO.  Everyone needs to get out there and interact with other people for a change.  Dont knock the pickup groups, 90% of my grouping is pickup, and as long as the leader can keep us focused, everything works out.  I've even lead some pickup groups, earlier today for instance.  Sure some of them didn't know how best to time their spells, but with a little help the group can work together well.  Thats another thing some of you need to get better at, helping your fellow players.  Sure answering noobish questions may seem annoying to some of you, but just think, that person may be someone you raid with later.  I support the "Take a noob under your wing" program.  My GF is a prime example.  I talked her into playing EQ2 with me.  When she started I was a lvl 20 Guardian.  By the time I was lvl 25 she was 15.  I helped her emmensly along the way of course, and before I knew it, she had cought up to my level.  At that point I had found a suitable guild, small and close knit, and talked her into joining with me.  We still spend most of our time duoing, and as of today she is a lvl 40 fury and im a 39 guardian.  We're on no "fast track to success." In fact I think she just YESTERDAY upgraded out of her lvl 20 armor.  Anyway I kinda went out on a tangent there. For those of you who spend your time doing the same thing over and over and over (not you tradeskillers, thats different <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"> ) you really need to look at the other things available in this world.  I've done many solo quests that earned me some nice xp. Sure some of the mobs were hiding behind heroics, but in most cases you can figure out a way to surpass them.  And yes other people hunt them too, but thats why you GROUP. And stop grouping for only xp and loot, sheesh, help a guy out when he needs help with a freekin quest.... I cant count how many times I've seen people ask for help and noone seems to respond, so I end up either mentoring or attacking out of group, cus I'm "too nice" (as my GF would say) Well its getting late and taking an increasing ammount of energy to think, so farewell.</span><div></div>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fammit wrote:<BR><SPAN><FONT size=4>Harclave's really needs to be nerfed badly</FONT>.<FONT color=#ff0000> (puts on flame retardant clothing)</FONT><BR><BR>I've done harclave's once, and sure it was fun, got a few nice things, but that was it for me.  Don't get me wrong, I love to solo/duo, but come on, this is an MMO.  Everyone needs to get out there and interact with other people for a change.  Dont knock the pickup groups, 90% of my grouping is pickup, and as long as the leader can keep us focused, everything works out.  I've even lead some pickup groups, earlier today for instance.  Sure some of them didn't know how best to time their spells, but with a little help the group can work together well.  Thats another thing some of you need to get better at, helping your fellow players.  Sure answering noobish questions may seem annoying to some of you, but just think, that person may be someone you raid with later.  I support the "Take a noob under your wing" program.  My GF is a prime example.  I talked her into playing EQ2 with me.  When she started I was a lvl 20 Guardian.  By the time I was lvl 25 she was 15.  I helped her emmensly along the way of course, and before I knew it, she had cought up to my level.  At that point I had found a suitable guild, small and close knit, and talked her into joining with me.  We still spend most of our time duoing, and as of today she is a lvl 40 fury and im a 39 guardian.  We're on no "fast track to success." In fact I think she just YESTERDAY upgraded out of her lvl 20 armor.  Anyway I kinda went out on a tangent there.<BR><BR>For those of you who spend your time doing the same thing over and over and over (not you tradeskillers, thats different <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0> ) you really need to look at the other things available in this world.  I've done many solo quests that earned me some nice xp. Sure some of the mobs were hiding behind heroics, but in most cases you can figure out a way to surpass them.  And yes other people hunt them too, but thats why you GROUP.<BR><BR>And stop grouping for only xp and loot, sheesh, help a guy out when he needs help with a freekin quest....<BR>I cant count how many times I've seen people ask for help and noone seems to respond, so I end up either mentoring or attacking out of group, cus I'm "too nice" (as my GF would say)<BR><BR>Well its getting late and taking an increasing ammount of energy to think, so farewell.</SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Now go and play a class that does not solo effectively, Like a cleric. I did harclaves maybe half a dozen times, (the last 3 to see if Masters really dropped in there, I never seen one in there). It was fun but for only one reason. I got to see my cleric kill stuff reasonably quickly. A clerics dream it was. A Damage shield (you did not have to buy) and all the grouped mobs you could handle. It was great, if my cleric had the equivalent of the T6 common potion damage shield as a spell I would never worry about soloing again.<BR>

[prisoner]

<P>The exp was nerfed as was the loot and people still want to go there.  What does that tell you?  Its easy,  convenient and probably a little fun.  A once per level lockout is a bit drastic.  Once per day,  once every few days would suffice I would think.  Most people could give less than a crap if there are better exp spots,  they WANT to do harclave for whatever reason.  Let them.  Forcing people who prefer to solo into other solo zones doesn't help the "problem."  Upper tunnels and the prank is better exp and loot?  OK cool with me.  I'll go there instead and still wont be in your group.  See whats happening here?  You may as well nerf all of splitpaw if you are going to do this to harclave.  </P> <P>17</P>

[MadTexan]

My deepest fear is that other instances, say the Valley of the Rogue Magi, will be changed like this as well. I really hope I don't have to go into detail over why this would be a bad thing.

[Aristac]

<DIV>I have a problem with this. I paid MONEY to adventure in Splitpaw and now SoE is taking that away because of a few whinners?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want a refund for the money I paid for Splitpaw since I can no longer play it as it was originally intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't give me any crap about the Nerf Nerds whinning and wanting other's to "group with them".   I paid for an expansion that I can no longer use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want a refund and I want it NOW. You Nerf Nerds scream about this class and that class being overpowered and that you want everyone to group with you......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good bye EQ2.....this is total bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</DIV>

[D]

<DIV>My friend and I were discussing this last night as we were finishing our trust..we both feel this particular zone has been detrimental (people used to contest for solo spots in varying zones which is gone now, b.c ppl just run to harcalve)..our..opinion, but  I do have other toons to run through for quests, so we considered the following should changes go through (I have same issues of going link dead, ect) as everyone elses.:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assuming this goes to once a level for receiving the quest:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1) Once you have the quest, and enter the zone, make this a "zone in progress" just like Alone in the Dark. ie if you fall, die, need to log ect.. you can come back immediately and the zone will record what content you've already cleared and let you continue from there. This requires the "usable" objects to be reset (like boards) so you can cross over the chasm again. This prevent people from having to wait a level should some unfortunate event occur in running the zone. This should help people with limited time resume the zone from where they left it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(2) Make the first quest attempt (and completion) through the most rewarding. This zone does have a really great concept, so reward people for running the trust by accelerating the loot tables and experience for the first flagged run through the game. Once you completed the quest once, flag it so the loot tables return to normal and experience is normal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(3)Agree with a poster above..there are zones for raiding and zones for grouping..why not add a few instanced zones very specific to soloers of any class. This could be content added through a scheduled update.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just some thoughts..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BrickyardRac]

<DIV>I think this is a bad change (though reading about Harclaves and the XP/loot, SOME change is probably needed).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have not done this zone yet.  I'm a returning player, and my main is now level 26.  I have purchased both Adventure Packs, and started messing around with Splitpaw just this past Saturday.  I have completed the Group Arena (doesn't seem to count for Trust), Flitch's quest, and the Grotto (Hot Water) quest (which I don't know if it counts for Trust).  I have had no luck defeating the Solo Arena (always making it to the Champion, always running out of power while I'm green in health and he's orange, and always losing in the end).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I entered Harclaves for the first time last night, and was doing fine until a lag spike caused me to pick up some adds (this is before I got whatever the major stat boost is).  With no choice but to flee, I ran to the entrance, clicked on it, and died while zoning (my shard was in the Den when it finally loaded, even though I got the death window before the loading started).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I had to reaquire the quest from the storyteller, so if the changes were live, I wouldn't have been able to even do that for a few days (and if I continue to be unable to defeat the Champion, I have to leave the Den to level, which means the tedious task of going through the upper tunnels yet again).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A lockout timer of 24 hours (or 4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> would be a much better idea than a limit of once per level.  But I wonder why the zone has been left overpowered (by all accounts, I quit in Feb and just came back a month ago) for the 6 months its been live?  Seems that the initial design is the problem, and if you get rid of the REASON people are supposedly redoing it, maybe they'll stop?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I won't touch much on the solo vs grouping thing, as I have no problems with grouping (though did notice that on returning to the game, on the Lucan server, Freeport was simply desolate from levels 8 to 15, so I restarted on AB - and Lucan server sometimes shows as "full", so I'm guessing on many servers, it's frustratingly HARD to get a group at lower levels - perhaps a few fewer servers would help out?), except to say that it would be good to have options, and your overland zones (Commonlands is what I'm talking about, as I've not ventured too much in Nek or TS yet this time around) could use with a whole lot of spawn-point fixing.  It's great to see loads of solos out there, but when they're interspersed with the group mobs, as they are now, it doesn't do much good.  Solo people can't always get to the solos due to the group mobs so close by, and groups (and I've done this) tend to kill the close solo mobs before an encounter just to avoid an add during the group fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I admit I'm not sure what your vision for this game is.  I tended to like the original one (the one with interdependancy in crafting), but just had wished it WORKED on release, and was balanced, but you've changed that quite a bit (and it seems like once or twice in the months I didn't play).  </DIV>

[KindredHeart]

<DIV><STRONG><U>Question:</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>At level 60 I will only be able to do Harclave once and then have to say good-bye to it forever unless/until another expansion comes out offering additional levels?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even at 60 when this zone offers practically no reward, experience, or loot comparable to other activities you would do at level 60 - it is still fun!  I thought the whole point of a game was to have fun.  What happened to all the talk about unnatural restrictions we heard around the time of the combat revamp when it was decided encounters should be unlocked?</DIV>

[SkySava]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nephiere wrote:<BR> <DIV>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with? Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Here here! Harclaves broke the grouping aspects of this game so badly it intensly hurt my experience with EQ2 when it came to grouping. I couldn't find a group because everyone was in Harclaves. Thus, I just stopped playing the "non-soloable" classes.

[Twizzel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SkySavage wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> Here here! Harclaves broke the grouping aspects of this game so badly it intensly hurt my experience with EQ2 when it came to grouping. I couldn't find a group because everyone was in Harclaves. Thus, I just stopped playing the "non-soloable" classes. </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>LoL...there is a LOT more than Harclaves that broke grouping.  Group Exp Debt, low population, spreading writs out all over the place so all in the group were basically forced to take the same ones, a lotto system that did anything BUT keep loot spread somewhat equally, etc, etc.  To blame one zone seems rather simplistic...after all, I can solo Flitch's, Upper Tunnels, Solo Arena over and over, and prior to LU13 I could solo many many other places as well...I, for one, would never want to play a game where I was practically forced to group to accomplish *anything* worthwhile.  I also wonder why so many complain about not being able to find groups...seems there are enough complaining on the boards that LOTS of groups could have been formed by the "He-man Harclave's Hater Club" members...</DIV>

[Magnus The Man]

they live..... it doesnt matter how many people are in the split paw den....harclave is its own zone so you have no clue how many people are running it if im not mistaken...... <div></div>

[MadTexan]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Twizzel wrote: <P>I also wonder why so many complain about not being able to find groups...seems there are enough complaining on the boards that LOTS of groups could have been formed by the "He-man Harclave's Hater Club" members...</P> <HR> <P>Exactly. Like so many things in life, too many are too fast to lay the blame for any dissatisfaction they have on the nearest scapegoat. Personally, I've never blamed Splitpaw for the grouping issues that so many seem to be having. No, for me it's characters that are 20+ simply not having a clue what they should be doing and on top of that when you provide them with advice, politely, they ignore it and continue to cause problems.</P> <P>You know the type I'm talking about, the Wizard who thinks 4 seconds is enough for a tank to establish aggro and then lets loose with all his DDs in one long chain, dies when he gets aggro and it can't be pulled off with a 1 Master  and 2 Adept 3 taunts and then tells you it's because you don't know how to tank. Then there's his healer equivalent, the Warden who keeps moving into the group of mobs you are fighting so he can melee and refuses to stay in the clear even with you turning the mobs so that their backs are him. As a result, quick mob picking is almost impossible and he is getting hit with barrage damage. Just to make matters worse he is so busy using DDs instead of heals that most of the time your health hovers in the red.</P> <P>IME these types of players are far, far too common in PUGs and <STRONG><EM><U>they</U></EM></STRONG> are why so many refuse PUGs and group in-guild or solo. Blaming lack of players LFG on Splitpaw/Harclave is simply ludicrous.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Aienaa]

<P>I posted this in another thread concerning this, so figured I would post it here as well....</P> <P> </P> <P>What would making it to where a player was only locked out, for the remainder of the level, after fully completing (clicking the chair at the end) it do?  </P> <P>It would do absolutly nothing...  You would still be able to farm the zone for exp / cash drops, just as long as you did not click the chair at the  end... </P> <P>Ok, so that does nothing, let's look at how other zones with lockouts are handled...</P> <P>Ok, how about having the lockout start if you kill any named mob in the zone....  Well, this does nothing also, as you can easily avoid killing the 2 named in there and continue to farm the zone for exp and cash drops...</P> <P>Hmmm...  Ok, none of that is working, so let's make the lockout start once you get the harclave buff....  Ok, so now you clear to the ark and get your buff, the first group spawns and you die / go LD or any number of other things that could go worng...  Well, now your locked up but never had the chance to complete the zone....</P> <P>So, what is the point of no return?  I can't see anything that either can't be gotten around or that doesn't screw the player if they some how die or go LD....</P> <P>If your going to make this a once a level type thing, then there needs to be a 100% chance to get a master chest for completing it, otherwise there is no reason for anyone to go there anymore....</P> <P> </P> <P>Now looking at this from a player point of view...  With my main character (now 60 Assassin) I had only gone to Harclave a total of 2-3 times, but that was before my hours changed at work and my play times shifted to mainly mornings...   When my hours changed and I was mainly playing in the mornings, I liked to play my Troubador (now 51) more often....  The problem with playing in the mornings was that it was near impossible to get a group....  When I was able to get a group, I would be out in other zones killing group material for exp....  But, there was times where I could not get groups for hours on end....  During these times I would put up my LFG tag and head over to Harclave...  At least I was able to get decent exp (not as good as a group, but it was ok) while waiting for some group to need me...   When and if I ever did get a tell asking me to go join a group, I would imidiatly leave Harclave to go join a group (reguardless of if I finished it or not, because I could always go back and get the Harclave quest again)...  If you ask me, Harclave is BORING, I would much rather be in a group somewhere rather than playing solo in Harclave...  That and killing the same mobs over and over is none too exciting....  I can't even guess as to how many time I nearly fell asleep while doing Harclave, because it's so boring....  </P> <P>If you take this option away, then you might as well just remove it from the game, because there is no reason for anyone to go there..  The dropped loot was sub-par for the level needed to obtain it, the cash reward for completing this quest has long been removed...  The only thing this zone had going for it, was that it gave people that play at off-peak hours something to do that resulted in a decent amount of exp....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 60 Assassin  /  Parody - 51 Troubador</P>

[Twizzel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <P>I posted this in another thread concerning this, so figured I would post it here as well....</P> <P> </P> <P>  </P> <P>When I was able to get a group, I would be out in other zones killing group material for exp....  <FONT color=#ffff66 size=4><STRONG><EM>But, there was times where I could not get groups for hours on end</EM></STRONG></FONT>....  During these times I would put up my LFG tag and head over to Harclave...  At least I was able to get decent exp (not as good as a group, but it was ok) while waiting for some group to need me...   When and if I ever did get a tell asking me to go join a group, I would imidiatly leave Harclave to go join a group (reguardless of if I finished it or not, because I could always go back and get the Harclave quest again)...  If you ask me, Harclave is BORING, I would much rather be in a group somewhere rather than playing solo in Harclave...  That and killing the same mobs over and over is none too exciting....  I can't even guess as to how many time I nearly fell asleep while doing Harclave, because it's so boring....  </P> <P> Gwern - 60 Assassin  /  Parody - 51 Troubador</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly...however, in the SoE thought process, people don't group because of Harclave's.  From my point of view, many people do Harclave's because of lack of groups (survivable groups, not P/U groups where folks don't know how to play--maybe if they "adjusted" the tutorial, more would understand how not to overnuke, or that healers should occassionally fight, their main job is to heal, etc).  Personally, I can live with or without Harclave's...as has been said many times, there are better solo spots with more exp/loot...but how limiting access to one zone is going to be the "be all, end all" to immediately fix grouping, as the vast majority on these boards (and our beloved Devs) seem to think, seems to completely escape me...<BR>

[mio]

Ho, the cavemen are upset because someone wants them to go see the light outside? interesting .... A producer of the game tells you 'we're trying to push people to experience other part of the game like the solo quest lines we introduced month ago' and you understand 'go group and do dungeons'. The 'Harclave' quest has been used and abused since to long now. That was going to append. Many people sensed it. Why don't you? In fact i love that solution. It remembers me the old time of D&D where various magical objects or spells or tests were doable or even tryable only once per level. In one line : We're playing EverQuest not EverHarclave. And with over 900 quests completed in my journal i can assure you there are nice quest rewards for those who are really looking. <div></div>

[Goldenpaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mioss wrote:<BR>Ho, the cavemen are upset because someone wants them to go see the light outside? interesting ....<BR><BR>A producer of the game tells you 'we're trying to push people to experience other part of the game like the solo quest lines we introduced month ago' and you understand 'go group and do dungeons'.<BR><BR>The 'Harclave' quest has been used and abused since to long now. That was going to append. Many people sensed it. Why don't you?<BR><BR>In fact i love that solution. It remembers me the old time of D&D where various magical objects or spells or tests were doable or even tryable only once per level.<BR><BR>In one line : We're playing EverQuest not EverHarclave.<BR><BR>And with over 900 quests completed in my journal i can assure you there are nice quest rewards for those who are really looking.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>mioss:</P> <P>Let me ask this again, and this hurts you how?</P> <P>If someone wants to do harclave by themselves how does this hurt you?</P> <P>Isn't the person who is playing also paying $15 a month like you?</P> <P>....</P> <P>Why are we forcing people to play like you do? (this goes to anyone) Is it "Evil" "exploitable" "not the best" because its not the way you choose to level?</P> <P>The supreme ignorance people portray here and in addition their lack of compassion makes me SICK.  Because it is something -you- don't enjoy, because it is not the way -you- would have someone play, because in your eyes it is not as noble as grouping, IT IS WRONG???</P> <P>Do you people who argue this really believe this?</P> <P>That is sad, you should be sad when any of your fellow man is hurting, not relishing in the fact that somehow your personal vendetta against people who decide to solo in there, is now realized.</P> <P>Why do you hate so much? If I like throwing a baseball around, and you like throwing a football around, why are you protesting me playing baseball???</P> <P>...</P> <P>Quit with the hate.  Show some compassion.</P> <P>(NO I do not run harclaves, but I do feel like we are being ripped off, and I am sick of the intolerance so many people show to people who choose to play different than I do.  They have as much right to the enjoyment of the game as anyone else)</P>

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goldenpaw wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mioss wrote:<BR>Ho, the cavemen are upset because someone wants them to go see the light outside? interesting ....<BR><BR>A producer of the game tells you 'we're trying to push people to experience other part of the game like the solo quest lines we introduced month ago' and you understand 'go group and do dungeons'.<BR><BR>The 'Harclave' quest has been used and abused since to long now. That was going to append. Many people sensed it. Why don't you?<BR><BR>In fact i love that solution. It remembers me the old time of D&D where various magical objects or spells or tests were doable or even tryable only once per level.<BR><BR>In one line : We're playing EverQuest not EverHarclave.<BR><BR>And with over 900 quests completed in my journal i can assure you there are nice quest rewards for those who are really looking.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>mioss:</P> <P>Let me ask this again, and this hurts you how?</P> <P>If someone wants to do harclave by themselves how does this hurt you?</P> <P>Isn't the person who is playing also paying $15 a month like you?</P> <P>....</P> <P>Why are we forcing people to play like you do? (this goes to anyone) Is it "Evil" "exploitable" "not the best" because its not the way you choose to level?</P> <P>The supreme ignorance people portray here and in addition their lack of compassion makes me SICK.  Because it is something -you- don't enjoy, because it is not the way -you- would have someone play, because in your eyes it is not as noble as grouping, IT IS WRONG???</P> <P>Do you people who argue this really believe this?</P> <P>That is sad, you should be sad when any of your fellow man is hurting, not relishing in the fact that somehow your personal vendetta against people who decide to solo in there, is now realized.</P> <P>Why do you hate so much? If I like throwing a baseball around, and you like throwing a football around, why are you protesting me playing baseball???</P> <P>...</P> <P>Quit with the hate.  Show some compassion.</P> <P>(NO I do not run harclaves, but I do feel like we are being ripped off, and I am sick of the intolerance so many people show to people who choose to play different than I do.  They have as much right to the enjoyment of the game as anyone else)</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think this is a change that is really needed. How it hurt others? well its less people runing around doing quest that you could group with to do something else. Maybe this fury that chain doing the harclave is the healer we need to finish this HQ as an exemple.

[KindredHeart]

<P>Harclave is not the only solo instance zone in the world, nor is it the only place for someone to solo.  No matter where they are soloing if they are choosing not to turn on their LFG tag and group then they are not going to be available to join you to finish your quest.</P> <P>Harclave is not the problem.  Besides they already nerfed it so badly since it launched that it's no longer the mecca it once was for experience and loot.  It is no better, and depending on your level it can actually be far worse than other conventional zones.</P> <P>I don't think there was a need to lock people out of the zone.  Some people have a limited amount of play time, or just prefer going it solo.  There's no reason a very predictable fun zone like Harclave should be eliminated from their options of places in the game to go for fun.</P> <p>Message Edited by KindredHeart on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 AM</span>

[Goldenpaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stradeus wrote:<BR><BR>I think this is a change that is really needed. How it hurt others? well its less people runing around doing quest that you could group with to do something else. Maybe this fury that chain doing the harclave is the healer we need to finish this HQ as an exemple. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*Editted some of the fluff out*</P> <P>Stradeus I agree in that it -might- get a healer to come out to the group that you need.  But allow me to spew some devil's advocate here, what happens if he just goes, you know what screw this, I'm not even going to bother playing period.  Just because you might need that Fury for your one fight for the HQ, does that mean you are going to ask him every single night to come be apart of your party?  What if he ABSOLUTELY sucks at playing in a party, and knows it, and wants to play solo because he can still obcheive success without screwing over other people?</P> <P>It doesn't bother me what they are doing to the zone from the aspect of it needing to be fixed, it bothers me that so many people are actually spewing hate filled comments towards their fellow players because of how they choose to play.  It bothers me because its what 6 months since the adventure pack and they are STILL worried about this?</P> <P>If they are going to change something so drastically, they need to offer a money back refund on the game.  They are just adding fuel to the fire, to melt the iron needed for their nails...</P> <P>Sometimes people don't need -A- reason, they just need enough reasons to go you know what, enough is enough.<BR></P>

[Aienaa]

<HR> <DIV>I think this is a change that is really needed. How it hurt others? well its less people runing around doing quest that you could group with to do something else. Maybe this fury that chain doing the harclave is the healer we need to finish this HQ as an exemple. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What makes you think he wants to heal you anyways? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What makes you think that he wants to group with people?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know... Let's compare this to a real life situation.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know, you should be interacting with people more (grouping), so we are going to take your computer away(harclave)....  That way you are forced to go outside and interact (group) with other people, rather than sit in your house alone playing on the computer(soloing)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, fine, take my computer (harclave) away, I'll just go read a book (other solo content)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmmm.... What did we fix here?  Nothing... If the person doesn't want to group with others, thier not going... They are just going to replace 1 kind of solo content with another.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, what are you going to do?  Slowly remove all solo content until there is nothing for little Johnny to do other than go out and play with others??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back to real life....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm going to take that book (other solo content) away from you.. you should be outside with the other kids (grouping)....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go ahead, take my book (other solo content), I'll just listen to my headphones (even more solo content).....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, where is it going to end?  The only way you can make someone group with others is to remove all solo content.... BUT, if you do that, thoes that do not want to have to interact with others will just quit the game and go somewhere where they are not forced into grouping....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gwern - 60 Assassin  /  Parody - 51 Troubador</DIV>

[ca]

<DIV>Let's be honest, this change was needed and important.....a month and a half ago. What is the point now?</DIV> <DIV>Sure two months ago you would see ten people standing around with AFK tags up waiting to go in and it was hard to get groups, but since then i will see maybe one or two people with AFK tags up, sometimes its me when I have things to do around the house.</DIV> <DIV>Honestly the xp in there is terrible now. I am 22% from dinging 40 with my necro right now and i am not even close to considering going to Harclaves for it, it's just waaaay too slow. I can solo blue groups of solo muck dregs in feerott and get much better xp and loot.</DIV> <DIV>That being said, their are times when i don't want to get groups, and Harclaves is where i go. boring as that place is it's peacfull.</DIV> <DIV>I honestly don't know anyone other than people who just got this pack that still use Harclaves as a primary grinding area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me just say this at the end, If you are upset that people are playing here too much and you can't get groups because of it, tough. Try playing a low pop server, doesn't make a difference you still have that problem. If you think the economy is being ruined, news flash: it was already hit when this first came out and it is slowly stabalizing, besides do yourself a favor, make a new toon and don't give it ANYTHING, guess what, you cant even afford app4 spells for that guy till you hit 30. The economy is already hurting and it's not adventure packs that does it, it's players who make T1 items and sell them for obscene prices (just one example of messed up economy) As for people saying this needed the nerf, it has been hit to the point of ONLY being entertainment value and for new players, making it a once per level thing will acomplish absolutly NO signifigant change other than to [Removed for Content] people off, can any of you say Bloodlines? Adventure packs are swiftly becoming a joke, they are givin attention for a month or so then ignored and damaged.</DIV> <DIV>buyer beware.</DIV> <DIV>Look it's all fine and good to claim these things can't be allowed to happen when you have already enjoyed the content to the point of boredom, but look at it from a new buyer's perspective. Not only did they miss out on all the great loot and xp of the original purchasers, but now they have to hope and pray they complete Harclaves the first time through and get no LD during.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How would you feel if you went LD after getting the buff? and it was your very first run through? would you still think nerfing it was a good idea?</DIV>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raven DarkStorm wrote:<BR> <P>Umm, the big writing is obnoxious :smileytongue:.  And either I encountered a bug on this one, or you are mistaken.  I had to run out through the portal (did not die)just two nights ago, due to adds before getting the buff.  The quest was gone from my book and upon getting it again I was immediately let in.  Also, I have had to exit after the buff but before I had killed anything to hand an item off to a guildy, and the reentry timer was activated already.  Unless what happened to me is a bug in those two cases, you cannot just reenter and kill the mobs over and over.</P> <P>Seriously a bad idea IMO to make this change.  No need to give folks who barely want to play the game another reason to leave.  And really, does it make any sense at all to try to push groups on those that do not want them?</P> <P>As far as 50's that don't know how to play their characters, I have met plenty that were 50 before Harclave's existed that don't play them any better, lol.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT size=4>I did not say you could just re-enter and kill the mobs over and over... What I said was that you do not need the QUEST! You can enter without the quest. You still have to wait the 4 or 6 hours, whatever it is, after getting the buff, to re-enter. The notes said that Sarchel the Storyteller will only OFFER the QUEST once per level. That tells me that you can still enter every 4 (or 6) hours and kill, but without the quest. So, again I say, this crying is STUPID... UNLESS the devs come out and say they will not allow you to enter at all but once per level...</FONT></P> <P>Oh.. and the big font may be obnoxious... but it's built into the forums; and was necessary since no one would listen to the simple truth that completely dispels all this crying and bickering (which it appears still isn't happening... some people need to change their diapers)...</P>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stradeus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goldenpaw wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mioss wrote:<BR>Ho, the cavemen are upset because someone wants them to go see the light outside? interesting ....<BR><BR>A producer of the game tells you 'we're trying to push people to experience other part of the game like the solo quest lines we introduced month ago' and you understand 'go group and do dungeons'.<BR><BR>The 'Harclave' quest has been used and abused since to long now. That was going to append. Many people sensed it. Why don't you?<BR><BR>In fact i love that solution. It remembers me the old time of D&D where various magical objects or spells or tests were doable or even tryable only once per level.<BR><BR>In one line : We're playing EverQuest not EverHarclave.<BR><BR>And with over 900 quests completed in my journal i can assure you there are nice quest rewards for those who are really looking.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>mioss:</P> <P>Let me ask this again, and this hurts you how?</P> <P>If someone wants to do harclave by themselves how does this hurt you?</P> <P>Isn't the person who is playing also paying $15 a month like you?</P> <P>....</P> <P>Why are we forcing people to play like you do? (this goes to anyone) Is it "Evil" "exploitable" "not the best" because its not the way you choose to level?</P> <P>The supreme ignorance people portray here and in addition their lack of compassion makes me SICK.  Because it is something -you- don't enjoy, because it is not the way -you- would have someone play, because in your eyes it is not as noble as grouping, IT IS WRONG???</P> <P>Do you people who argue this really believe this?</P> <P>That is sad, you should be sad when any of your fellow man is hurting, not relishing in the fact that somehow your personal vendetta against people who decide to solo in there, is now realized.</P> <P>Why do you hate so much? If I like throwing a baseball around, and you like throwing a football around, why are you protesting me playing baseball???</P> <P>...</P> <P>Quit with the hate.  Show some compassion.</P> <P>(NO I do not run harclaves, but I do feel like we are being ripped off, and I am sick of the intolerance so many people show to people who choose to play different than I do.  They have as much right to the enjoyment of the game as anyone else)</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think this is a change that is really needed. How it hurt others? well its less people runing around doing quest that you could group with to do something else. Maybe this fury that chain doing the harclave is the healer we need to finish this HQ as an exemple. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your point makes no sense.</P> <P>If this game is going to last it has to have content for evryone.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Murchik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aienaa wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know... Let's compare this to a real life situation.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>it's a game, you are in their world, you agree to it each time you log on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I think about this, they were slowly nerfing Splitpaw ap and probably came to the point where they think if they nerf it any more in the way of loot/expirience/rewards people will get very mad.  So not thinking of the outcome of other method, they decided to do this.  Which still [Removed for Content] a lot of people off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very little logical we see coming from soe, why does anyone expect any different this time?</DIV>

[Strade]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think this is a change that is really needed. How it hurt others? well its less people runing around doing quest that you could group with to do something else. Maybe this fury that chain doing the harclave is the healer we need to finish this HQ as an exemple. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your point makes no sense.</P> <P>If this game is going to last it has to have content for evryone.</P> <P><BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I fail to see how making harclave doable only once per level remove content for people. It will still be there but not repeatable endlessly. Actually, doing harclave again and again is missing lot of content in the game.</P> <P> </P>

[Eileah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nephiere wrote:<BR> <DIV>What about the causual guy??  This is taking away from those who only have little blocks of time to play the game.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We considered the impact this would have on casual players, believe me. We don't like spoiling anyone's fun, but we decided on this change after a lot of thinking and discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Trial of Harclave was meant to be a fun, unique experience, and it absolutely achieved that. It allows a character to feel super-powerful for a time, plowing through heroic encounters like they're butter. When it worked out that doing this zone over and over was the most efficient way for a lot of people to earn XP by a wide margin, we made adjustments to account for that. We wanted the zone to remain unique and fun to do, but we didn't want the perception to be that you *had* to do it. And to be honest, I'd get that feeling myself sometimes. "Just one more run through Harclave so I can level... okay, just one more run through Harclave..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all honesty, you can earn much better XP outside of Harclave, especially if you team up with even one other person. The appeal of the zone remains that you can go there anytime you want, with basically no set-up time, and know exactly what you'll get out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem lies not in the zone itself, but the effect it caused. Some of us have been in groups where members actually left because they were close to a level and felt they needed to go to Harclave to finish it off. Anyone who has done Harclave very many times has seen people sitting AFK either at the quest giver or outside the entrance, waiting for the reuse timer to run out. What else might they have been able to accomplish elsewhere in that time, and how many other people might they have met and made friends with? Clearly this zone wasn't only being used by people with limited playtime, and the fact that it scales from level 20 to 50 made it that much more significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some will say this change is about us trying to hurt soloers or casual players, but that's not our motivation here at all. We want Harclave to remain fun and have the feeling of a special event rather than something people feel compelled to grind on. And I think most would have to admit that that's exactly what the zone had become.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with anything on Test this change is still subject to revision, but I at least wanted to convey the reasons and goals for making it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Gee how very dictatorial and selfish of you, you assume because *you* felt the *need* to *grind* to a level in harclaves that everyone else does too, so now since your uber toon supposedly had someone leave to top off a level in harclaves you are angry and are going to take that ability away from everyone, in the real world that is what we call a tyrant and a bully.</P> <P>Not everyone feels the need to level, I know I sure don't and neither do the people I play with, getting to the next level is NEVER a goal for us, we use this game as a medium for us to spend time together, plain and simple, much like a friendly poker game on friday nights, we ARE the friends, we don't need to *meet people* if we did we would be in chat rooms or irc or even at eharmony.com, but we don't have ANY desire to meet people, thats not to say we haven't met a couple of nice people but we didn't meet them by grouping... oh noooo, we got to know them by the chat channels, traders/crafting and saw that they were decent people with solid qualities that we respect and appreciate in people and decided to get to know them, no one I know would ever risk their sanity on a PU group, I know from my personal experience that most  LFG players are irritating and greedy, and usually crappy players that people will not group with more than once, so why would I want to bother with that nightmare when I have my circle of friends to play with and if I ever did want to meet new people I would decide by what I know about them from other means such as chat and reputaion, not cold grouping and learning the hard way.</P> <P>I don't know why most people play this game, from the tells I get and /ooc I see it sure seems as if this is a place lonely people use to find other lonely people, well if you are one of them I am sorry for you but that doesn't mean you should be able to eliminate options for those who do not want to meet you or be your friend or help you with something that you want to get done.</P> <DIV>I rarely use Harclaves but I do use it and will resent it being limited because people can't put a group together or they want to meet people, and as for aco,plishing things? I USE Harclaves for two reasons, if one toon in our group gets behind in exp because of deaths of lower play time then we run Harclaves to catch them up a few %, the other reason is skill capping, I 2box and have both preists and casters that fall behind in their non-primary skills so I use Harclaves to bring those up on occassion which may not matter to others but it's a personal preference of mine to have all skills capped for all my toons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fix whats broken and maybe people will come back and you can find people to group with, but reducing Harclaves to a joke will not net you any players to group with as were only talking about maybe 1-3 players max per server that are ever in Harclaves these days....</DIV>

[mio]

<span><blockquote><hr>Goldenpaw wrote: <blockquote> <hr> mioss wrote:Ho, the cavemen are upset because someone wants them to go see the light outside? interesting ....A producer of the game tells you 'we're trying to push people to experience other part of the game like the solo quest lines we introduced month ago' and you understand 'go group and do dungeons'.The 'Harclave' quest has been used and abused since to long now. That was going to append. Many people sensed it. Why don't you?In fact i love that solution. It remembers me the old time of D&D where various magical objects or spells or tests were doable or even tryable only once per level.In one line : We're playing EverQuest not EverHarclave.And with over 900 quests completed in my journal i can assure you there are nice quest rewards for those who are really looking. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>mioss:</p> <p>Let me ask this again, and this hurts you how?</p> <p>If someone wants to do harclave by themselves how does this hurt you?</p> <p>Isn't the person who is playing also paying $15 a month like you?</p> <p>....</p> <p>Why are we forcing people to play like you do? (this goes to anyone) Is it "Evil" "<b>EXPLOITABLE</b>" "not the best" because its not the way you choose to level?</p> <p>The supreme ignorance people portray here and in addition their lack of compassion makes me SICK.  Because it is something -you- don't enjoy, because it is not the way -you- would have someone play, because in your eyes it is not as noble as grouping, IT IS WRONG???</p> <p>Do you people who argue this really believe this?</p> <p>That is sad, you should be sad when any of your fellow man is hurting, not relishing in the fact that somehow your personal vendetta against people who decide to solo in there, is now realized.</p> <p>Why do you hate so much? If I like throwing a baseball around, and you like throwing a football around, why are you protesting me playing baseball???</p> <p>...</p> <p>Quit with the hate.  Show some compassion.</p> <p>(NO I do not run harclaves, but I do feel like we are being ripped off, and I am sick of the intolerance so many people show to people who choose to play different than I do.  They have as much right to the enjoyment of the game as anyone else)</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I"ve got absolutly nothing against people soloing and i solo often since LU13 (before i had problem soloing green solo mobs) If you like to solo (and this goes to anyone too) please, do so. I understand and felt the feeling of accomplishment there is in it (even in harclave which took me 6 try to finish). But i must admit that in my mind people who just chain quest harclave are 'exploiting' the best spot. As always in this group of people there are some with understandable argument but in the end I agree more with the post above saying 'at last you (SoE) did it, that should have been released like that, you (SoE) would have less problem making it accepted'. I understand perfectly the argument : ' But what for the people who are just doing the quest and failed ' and i tend to agree with it even if , as i already said , the concept of one try by level is an old RPG concept (back to D&D first ed.) and we are playing in an RPG after all. But i fail to see how this became a discussion about solo/group play style. There are Tons of other solo content as enjoyable (in my mind) as Harclave. I agree, in the end that was a nice quest, fun, inventive in it's way and nicely done (especially the mushroom king imo) but there are other enjoyable quests elsewhere. Doesn't Harclave felt like a 'one stage mini game' in the end? like a demo or something? Compared to the vast (or not so vast imho) exterior? But i digress. Anyway, I think my point stand. This can't be a discussion solo vs group. <u>Harclave is really not the only soloable quest in this world.</u> </span><div></div>

[vladstone]

<DIV>Leave Harclave the way it is so those that like it can enjoy it. If you dont like the way it was dont play it. I payed for it for what it WAS like. STOP limiting my play style.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eileah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>mioss wrote:</P> <P>...blah blah blah.....<BR><SPAN> </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><U>Harclave is really not the only soloable quest in this world.</U><BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It IS the ONLY quest that I don't have to worry about respawn in AND I can max out my melee skills without any real fear of death AND I can afk to fix dinner for my kids or answer the phone AND not be letting *group members* down or having to abandon a quest before I am done.</P> <P>I choose to not group with strangers, I choose to keep to my circle of friends and that IS my choice, trying to force me into meeting people or making *new* friends wont work and frankly is insulting, if I want to judge people for their worthiness before I group with them that IS MY RIGHT, not everyone is a nice person and no one, not me or anyone MUST let people inflict themselves on us.</P> <P>The ONLY people I see in favor of this change are those who want to force their preference on others ot hope to gain from their loss of Harclaves, but you wont gain a person to group with, all you people who selfishly want to eliminate this option for people are the very people that others dont want to group with in the first place.</P> <P>You people are literally trying to make grouping the LAST option left in this game, and if thats the only way you can get people to play with you then there are other problems going on that have no relation to Harclaves.</P> <P>Harclaves does NOTHING to those who do not use it, I know people who don'[t even have the SP exp and they can't play their classes so Harclaves has nothing to do with it, Harclaves only effects those who use it and enjoy it, period.<BR></P>

[Vorlak]

<P>I would rather see Hardcleave cave in and never be accessed again.</P> <P>Or.. make Hardcleave a "Heroic" zone much like the expansion of DoF instances - several named and a few metals with a 40% rate. make the fabled t4 no-value, lore. (level avg 30 - 40)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Badtidings]

<P>If Harclave's was someplace you could go in as a group *or* solo, do you think there would be the same cries to remove it from the game? In the end it seems like some people are perfectly fine with zones that you can only go into as a raid force. They seem, in fact, to relish the fact that there's someplace that they can go that others cannot. "A reward for our hard work," they say.</P> <P>If soloers said "Hey, you get to enjoy tons of content without me!" they'd reply, "So?"</P> <P>But they get all bent out of shape that there's someplace that a soloer can enjoy the game without them.</P> <P>As for the developers thinking about this change long and hard, sure, what the heck, I'll believe that. But I can't believe that the problem they were thinking long and hard about was how to make the game more enjoyable. Be hurt by that comment if you choose to, but when there's a zone you literally have to re-engineer four or five times to drive people away from it I'd say they were enjoying something about it. It wasn't the money, because anybody who's done it recently knows you can make more doing almost anything else. (The last time I was in Harclave's was pre-DOF, by the way. Just killing yard trash in the sinking sands gets me more experience and money than Harclave's did). And as far as experience, there's more to be had elsewhere too. Yet something kept people coming back. Seems like they enjoyed it.</P> <P>Sometimes I get the feeling that inside the halls in San Diego there's some "metric du jour" floating about. My guess would be that all that time they spent writing Crystal Reports to find botters and dupers has taught them that they can torture the data just about any way they'd like.</P> <P>The conversation I envision:</P> <P>"According to this report, only 20% of the server population is in a group."</P> <P>"Really? Hardly seems fitting for a world class MMORPG to only have 20% grouping. Let's make that 50%! We owe it to our community!"</P> <P>The conversation I wish for:</P> <P>"According to this report, only 20% of the server population is in a group."</P> <P>"Really? What percent of the server population isn't having fun?"</P> <P>"Um, I don't know."</P> <P>"Well, forget about the reports. Go out onto each server and create a character. Use the character to chat with at least 100 players on each server you've never met. Ask them if they're enjoying the game. If they aren't, ask them why. Let me know the feedback."</P> <P> </P>

[Cowdenic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badtidings wrote:<BR> <P>If Harclave's was someplace you could go in as a group *or* solo, do you think there would be the same cries to remove it from the game? In the end it seems like some people are perfectly fine with zones that you can only go into as a raid force. They seem, in fact, to relish the fact that there's someplace that they can go that others cannot. "A reward for our hard work," they say.</P> <P>If soloers said "Hey, you get to enjoy tons of content without me!" they'd reply, "So?"</P> <P>But they get all bent out of shape that there's someplace that a soloer can enjoy the game without them.</P> <P>As for the developers thinking about this change long and hard, sure, what the heck, I'll believe that. But I can't believe that the problem they were thinking long and hard about was how to make the game more enjoyable. Be hurt by that comment if you choose to, but when there's a zone you literally have to re-engineer four or five times to drive people away from it I'd say they were enjoying something about it. It wasn't the money, because anybody who's done it recently knows you can make more doing almost anything else. (The last time I was in Harclave's was pre-DOF, by the way. Just killing yard trash in the sinking sands gets me more experience and money than Harclave's did). And as far as experience, there's more to be had elsewhere too. Yet something kept people coming back. Seems like they enjoyed it.</P> <P>Sometimes I get the feeling that inside the halls in San Diego there's some "metric du jour" floating about. My guess would be that all that time they spent writing Crystal Reports to find botters and dupers has taught them that they can torture the data just about any way they'd like.</P> <P>The conversation I envision:</P> <P>"According to this report, only 20% of the server population is in a group."</P> <P>"Really? Hardly seems fitting for a world class MMORPG to only have 20% grouping. Let's make that 50%! We owe it to our community!"</P> <P>The conversation I wish for:</P> <P>"According to this report, only 20% of the server population is in a group."</P> <P>"Really? What percent of the server population isn't having fun?"</P> <P>"Um, I don't know."</P> <P>"Well, forget about the reports. Go out onto each server and create a character. Use the character to chat with at least 100 players on each server you've never met. Ask them if they're enjoying the game. If they aren't, ask them why. Let me know the feedback."</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>that will never happen. That is being proactive and as we all know the staff here tends to be reactive.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badtidings wrote:<BR> <P>As for the developers thinking about this change long and hard, sure, what the heck, I'll believe that. But I can't believe that the problem they were thinking long and hard about was how to make the game more enjoyable. Be hurt by that comment if you choose to, but when there's a zone you literally have to re-engineer four or five times to drive people away from it I'd say they were enjoying something about it. It wasn't the money, because anybody who's done it recently knows you can make more doing almost anything else. (The last time I was in Harclave's was pre-DOF, by the way. Just killing yard trash in the sinking sands gets me more experience and money than Harclave's did). And as far as experience, there's more to be had elsewhere too. Yet something kept people coming back. Seems like they enjoyed it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What was being "enjoyed" (as evidenced by many posts in this discussion alone) was the destination...not the journey.  People are citing, over and over, that Harclave's was relatively easy, relatively safe, and yet very productive.  One recent poster even suggested that it was the only zone where she could count on being able to go AFK <EM>during a fight</EM>.  I know I could.  After a few attempts, my average Harclave's run consisted more of me watching a show or reading a book than actually looking at the screen.  There was next to no risk.  I'd pull one or two groups and leave the room - the damage shield alone was enough to kill anything that was attacking me. </P> <P>The developers really had two choices - alter the experience or limit it.  They chose to limit it.  Had they chosen to alter it, you'd hear just as many (if not more) complaints about that choice.  Harclave's had to change.  It was far too much reward for far too little risk. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[KindredHeart]

<DIV align=left></DIV> <DIV align=left>I think it's funny how people are choosing to blame Harclave for their inability to find grouping partners.  Which seems to be the primary complaint I ever hear stated about it.  They don't blame the really sad LFG tools, they don't blame any of the other game dynamics that have contributed to the situation - instead they choose to see Harclave as the root of all evil.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Well think about what was happening in the game when Harclave came into existance.  Many players were in the process of reaching higher levels and thus leaving the lower tier zones less populated.  Around that time period more players had joined guilds or formed tight knit relationships with people they would regularly group with.  When the game first launched there were a few guilds which quickly formed (knew each other in previous gaming environments).  But it took time for other players to find their way into those social structures.  Around the time Harclave came out it was already becoming increasingly difficult to find a random pick up group for any purpose.  As the level gap between newbie and seasoned player increased that problem only became more pronounced.  And none of that had anything at all to do with people playing in Harclave.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>In fact, if anything Harclave was offering an alternative to frustrated players who hadn't found, or didn't want to find, their way into those social structures or more populated zones.  Those are people who wouldn't have been throwing up their LFG tags anyway.  The LFG crowds had joined guilds, added people to their friends lists for routine grouping, and move on to other areas of the game.  And one more thing I'll just mention...you can have LFG on at any time - even while in Harclave, so if they were at all considering looking for a group the fact that they were in Harclave would not have stopped them.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>It's easier I guess to point the finger at Harclave than to accept the fact that hitting Harclave with the nerf bat isn't going to fix any of that.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Have you ever played Tetris?  It's the same thing over and over again right, but you still enjoy it.  Who are you to say that it's invalid for a player to enjoy repeating certain content?  The devs say they want to accomodate various play styles, well some people come to the game merely to relax and they found Harclave a fun escape.  They could AFK at will (RL issues make this necessary for some people), they knew what to expect everytime so once they had experienced it once they didn't have to worry about doing research, and they were having fun.  I know many players who absolutely detest going somewhere new.  Harclave gave them a scaleable option where they didn't have to go through that kind of stress....it was RELAXING.  And I see nothing wrong with a gaming experience being that kind of escape for anyone.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>You know what else reminds me of that...hmmmm crafting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So I say we force people out of the tradeskill instances because afterall while they are in there crafting they aren't out here grouping with me.  And if you want to talk about a risk vs reward comparison ... some of the richest players in the game are crafters.  There's not a whole heck of  a lot of risk involved in crafting.  Good grief.</DIV><p>Message Edited by KindredHeart on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 AM</span>

[Twizzel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KindredHeart wrote:<BR> <DIV align=left></DIV> <DIV align=left>I think it's funny how people are choosing to blame Harclave for their inability to find grouping partners.  Which seems to be the primary complaint I ever hear stated about it.  They don't blame the really sad LFG tools, they don't blame any of the other game dynamics that have contributed to the situation - instead they choose to see Harclave as the root of all evil.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Well think about what was happening in the game when Harclave came into existance.  Many players were in the process of reaching higher levels and thus leaving the lower tier zones less populated.  Around that time period more players had joined guilds or formed tight knit relationships with people they would regularly group with.  When the game first launched there were a few guilds which quickly formed (knew each other in previous gaming environments).  But it took time for other players to find their way into those social structures.  Around the time Harclave came out it was already becoming increasingly difficult to find a random pick up group for any purpose.  As the level gap between newbie and seasoned player increased that problem only became more pronounced.  And none of that had anything at all to do with people playing in Harclave.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>In fact, if anything Harclave was offering an alternative to frustrated players who hadn't found, or didn't want to find, their way into those social structures or more populated zones.  Those are people who wouldn't have been throwing up their LFG tags anyway.  The LFG crowds had joined guilds, added people to their friends lists for routine grouping, and move on to other areas of the game.  And one more thing I'll just mention...you can have LFG on at any time - even while in Harclave, so if they were at all considering looking for a group the fact that they were in Harclave would not have stopped them.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>It's easier I guess to point the finger at Harclave than to accept the fact that hitting Harclave with the nerf bat isn't going to fix any of that.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Have you ever played Tetris?  It's the same thing over and over again right, but you still enjoy it.  Who are you to say that it's invalid for a player to enjoy repeating certain content?  The devs say they want to accomodate various play styles, well some people come to the game merely to relax and they found Harclave a fun escape.  They could AFK at will (RL issues make this necessary for some people), they knew what to expect everytime so once they had experienced it once they didn't have to worry about doing research, and they were having fun.  I know many players who absolutely detest going somewhere new.  Harclave gave them a scaleable option where they didn't have to go through that kind of stress....it was RELAXING.  And I see nothing wrong with a gaming experience being that kind of escape for anyone.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>You know what else reminds me of that...hmmmm crafting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So I say we force people out of the tradeskill instances because afterall while they are in there crafting they aren't out here grouping with me.  And if you want to talk about a risk vs reward comparison ... some of the richest players in the game are crafters.  There's not a whole heck of  a lot of risk involved in crafting.  Good grief.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by KindredHeart on <SPAN class=date_text>11-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:23 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are correct.  Shutting down Harclave's WILL NOT fix the game in any way, shape or form.  I was so bored I went to LDL server and started a scout/rogue/swash where I wouldn't be able to twink him.  Guess what...lvl 19 already (prob 20 tonight), have a full set of pristine forged carbonite chainmail in my bags waiting for me to ding 20, all adept 1s (that I want--still confused whether I need to upgrade Cheap Shot since I thought I read it was a CA now that automatically scales), and DOING THE SAME QUESTS FOR THE 6-7TH TIME!!!  I have not once grouped since I started this character--not because I don't want to, but if you think I am accepting a blind invite across the zone when I don't even have LFG up or that I will answer an OOC group call in LEWT SPEAK, think again.  Oh yeah...I think about 12-14 hours played total.  Would be nice if my 46 Templar could solo like this.   Oh, and once I hit 20, I start the Splitpaw/Harclave's quests again to get my shard and the, since I don't have to worry about being ambushed by wandering epic mobs, I'll hit the upper tunnels whenever I want a boost in exp/cash.</P> <P>I absolutely LOVE your tradeskill analogy.  I made WAY more working up to 49 Provisioner than I could have ever hoped to make in Harclaves.  It's the reason I've been able to twink multiple twinks in Imbued Armor and Weapons.  And I've seen the T6 prices on food/drink, so if I wanted to grind a bit, I could become rich beyond my wildest dreams selling T6 product.  Again, WAY more than I would ever make repeatedly doing Harclave's... </P> <p>Message Edited by Twizzel on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>

[jordaann]

3 groups of people 1. those that will solo most of the time 2. those that will group most of the time 3. those that will do 1 or 2 depending on which is the most efficient. 1 will get the ruff end of the change 2. will not feel a negative impact (if anything they end up better because group 3 will now be grouping) 3 is the group this change was designed to affect.  solo should be possible but should not be MORE desirable than grouping(imo and it seems in SOE opinion). btw my 26 warlock did harclave on test last night and went from 30% into my level to dinging to 27 and could do it again if I wanted <div></div>

[SpiritofWolfE]

<DIV>The Harclave quest being "once per level" is enough Harclave for anybody.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least now, it becomes "special" instead of "doing the Harclave grind yet again."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Grantr]

I do belive the upper tunnels is pretty much all solo my friends.  But however you dont get your free-exp-uber-stupid-overpower buff.  Pretty much the same lvls since it scales, so dont worry you can all go solo there.  Problem solved my whiny friends.

[jordaann]

I think they should do something for the level 60s and the level 50s without the expansion.  Seems like the change was designed to make it an uncommon event for players but if you have maxed your level it wont allow you to do it anymore. <div></div>

[jordaann]

<span><blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote: <p>If your going to make this a once a level type thing, then there needs to be a 100% chance to get a master chest for completing it, otherwise there is no reason for anyone to go there anymore....</p> <p>Gwern - 60 Assassin  /  Parody - 51 Troubador</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>No reason?? Lets see I go in with 30% xp and I come out after dinging, yup no purpose there... </span><div></div>