Coercer fixes feedback...need a bit more work.

[Bloodtoo]

<div></div><div></div>It's a good start in that there is a lot to fix to get Coercers working properly.   <font color="#ffff00"><i>Coercer changes: - <b>Coercer charm</b> spells have received a reduction in their chance to break over time.</i></font>     <font color="#ff0000">()</font> Charm duration is better but only marginally so.  For our hallmark ability the performance is still not up to what would be considered reliable.  Would it be so bad if this spell lasted to duration?       I have to admit I don't really understand the reason to have random break AND the mob/pet power reduction.  The dumbing down of charmed mobs prevents us from having overpowered pets.  Since ALL above average mobs (up arrow) are made average when charmed (no arrow and lower) do we really need it to be so unreliable in duration?      <font color="#ffff00"><i>- <b>Simple Minds</b> is now granted to Coercers at level 22.</i></font>     <font color="#ff0000">()</font> This is a pretty underpowered spell even at level 22.<i><font color="#ffff00"> - <b>The Terrible Awe</b> line now prevents its targets from being affected by area-of-effect spells.</font></i>    <font color="#ff0000"> ()</font> This one caught us off guard, we didn't know there was any issues with how it was working.  There is however a problem with this change.  In blocking group effect spells Terrible Awe now effectively blocks itself.  So now you cannot recast Terrible Awe was this intended?      <font color="#3399ff"><b>Outstanding issues:</b></font><font color="#3399ff"> </font><font color="#3399ff"><font color="#ff0000">[]</font> Stuns - <font color="#ffffff">Cast times are way too long for this entire set of defensive spells.  Not sure what your vision is for their use.</font></font><font color="#3399ff"> </font><font color="#3399ff"><font color="#ff0000">[] </font>Buffs - <font color="#ffffff">Still nothing to address the large reduction to our power pool buffs recently.</font></font><font color="#3399ff"> </font><font color="#3399ff"><font color="#ff0000">[]</font> DPS   - <font color="#ffffff">We are still waiting to join the rest of the mage classes in DPS abilities.  Our brother Illusionists seem to be doing well and that's good to see.  When can we expect to be able to step into the ring? </font></font><font color="#3399ff"> </font><font color="#3399ff"><font color="#ff0000">[] </font>Raids - <font color="#ffffff">Without Epic stifles, poor DPS, average power regen and reduced power buffing, right now there is nothing we can do that other classes can't do better.  Bottom line is we don't currently have a role in raids. </font></font><font color="#3399ff"><b>Bugs:</b></font> <font color="#3399ff"><font color="#ff0000">[]</font> Charm - </font>If while fighting with a charmed pet your pet breaks or dies in mid-combat, it sometimes prevents you from getting credit for that encounter (xp/drops/chests).  It's difficult to lock down under which circumstances this occurs but several people have noticed it.  Thanks to Chogra PigLick and Verityn for the details on this bug. <font color="#3399ff"><font color="#ffffff"> <edit fixed formatting> <edit added bug section> </font></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Bloodtooth on <span class="date_text">11-01-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:10 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Bloodtooth on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:09 PM</span>

[Jiwi]

<DIV>Bloodtooth you hit the nail right on the head!  Good job!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I fully agree with his points, especially the random breaking of the charm.  If you're going to dumb down the pet there is NO reason to have the charm break.  If you want to adjust the lowering of the charmed pet to 75% of it's pre-charm stat then we have something to show for the risk/reward.  But as it is currently this is a needless devaluation of the Coercer class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Wikod]

Good Post

[Puggpaw]

I agree!

[Snarks]

Very nice post I hope these points are adressed by developers ASAP. <div></div>

[Aaf]

Totally agree with the full duration charm...they are already dumbed down, this wouldn't make coercers over-powered, in fact, it would only help them catch up to the rest of the classes. I see less and less coercers around everyday, somthing needs to change.  This is a good start, but it's not nearly enough.

[Krelfeari]

good post, much credit given cause its deserved!!

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Thank you for the input.</DIV>

[Jiwi]

<P>Another question to ask is how do the Coercer pets compare to these, post patch (Oct. 28th test patch) pets? :</P> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>*** Spells and Combat Arts ***</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Summoner, Conjurer, and Necromancer pets should receive additional improvements when they are summoned with a higher rank of spell. As the spell rank is improved, fighter pets will gain slightly more health, mage pets will receive a bit more power, and scout pets will have a bit higher damage output.</DIV> <P>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II </P> <DIV>If I dueled a conjuror my adept III coerce pet should match their adept III soldier?  Yes/No?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bravnik]

<P>All this on Charm was brought up in Beta Testing. The early break on Charm was questioned then and the reply from EJDev is that it may be tweaked but it will not go away. EJDev is a fool in my mind and has no clue about the Coercer class in general. He has a hard-on for the early break and at this point I doubt he will take it away because I will personally tell him "I told you so!" each and every chance I get. </P> <P>I told EJDev exactly what would happen if this goes live and he refused to listen, I told him on the message boards and in direct PMs. Exactly what I said would happen has happed. A lot of Coercers have quit (including myself), the spell is worthless on raids/group and not worth the risk solo. EJDev is a fool and every Coercer out there needs to know who screwed our class. I can't wait to see this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at the next FanFair.</P> <P>Our only hope is that EJDev gets fired, moves to a defferant company (poor them), gets his Visa revoked (If he has one, PRAYS!) or by some miracle he actually swallows his pride and makes the change that needs to be made which is to take out the early charm completely.</P> <P>Tweaking the Early Break is NOT the answer. Having an Early Break serves no prupose other than to make using the spell a FRUSTRATING experience. The risk is NOT worth using the spell. Using in Group is worthless and lets not even discuss using it in raids. EJDev needs to listen to the people who actually play this class and not use Quesswork Programming to make changes. Tool!</P> <P> </P>

[beev]

<DIV>"If I dueled a conjuror my adept III coerce pet should match their adept III soldier?  Yes/No?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Emphatically, NO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A charmed pet should soundly wipe the floor with ANY casted pet of equal level (strictly pet vs pet) because in the big picture, the owners of said pets have significantly differing DPS abilities through spells, AND the casted pets owner doesnt have to worry about his pet becoming his enemy 30 seconds down the road.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too-watered-down charmed pets KILL our DPS, KILL any semblance of risk versus reward, and will continue to KILL this class.</DIV>

[PigLick]

<span><blockquote><hr>beevul wrote:<div></div> <div>"If I dueled a conjuror my adept III coerce pet should match their adept III soldier?  Yes/No?"</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Emphatically, NO.</div> <div> </div> <div>A charmed pet should soundly wipe the floor with ANY casted pet of equal level (strictly pet vs pet) because in the big picture, the owners of said pets have significantly differing DPS abilities through spells, AND the casted pets owner doesnt have to worry about his pet becoming his enemy 30 seconds down the road.</div> <div> </div> <div>Too-watered-down charmed pets KILL our DPS, KILL any semblance of risk versus reward, and will continue to KILL this class.</div><hr></blockquote>I don't necessarily agree. Maybe without any buffs/help from the caster that would be the case, but summoners' pets are their whole deal, it's what their class almost entirely revolves around. Even with the (substantial) downsides to our pets, we get lots of other abilities to bring to the table (as broken or minized as they may be), so we shouldn't be able to out-pet them. That would be like summoners being able to summon a pet that had CC and power regen better than what we have, but with a chance to break and attack the summoner. If that happened, enchanters would be up in arms (rightly so), and by the same token if we got pets that easily ate through summoner pets, they would be up in arms. I agreee charm definitely needs work, but I also understand that care has to be taken not to make it too powerful. PigLick</span><div></div>

[Cuz]

<P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=128062" target=_blank><SPAN>Lleinen</SPAN></A>'s right. Sorry guys, and best of luck with your class.</P> <P><BR><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Jenoy on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:51 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:51 PM</span>

[Lleinen]

<P>First off, stop the flames, this post is amazing, lets keep it open and roaring!</P> <P>To the OP, i TOTALLY agree (take out watered down / power reduced pets! hip hip!)</P> <p>Message Edited by Lleinen on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:41 PM</span>

[Aaf]

Again, a lil change is not nearly enough, if you want people to actually play coercers, the charm is definlty going to have to be full duration.  Our sister class gets a full time pet, I think the same shoudl be true for coercers.

[beev]

<DIV>"I don't necessarily agree. Maybe without any buffs/help from the caster that would be the case, but summoners' pets are their whole deal, it's what their class almost entirely revolves around. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Their whole deal...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides the BIG dots and AOE spells you mean. And ability to heal thier pets, along with ALL kinds of pet utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Even with the (substantial) downsides to our pets, we get lots of other abilities to bring to the table (as broken or minized as they may be), so we shouldn't be able to out-pet them."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're bringing quantity into a discussion of quality. We coercers hundred zeros do not equate to other classes handfulls of 3's or 4's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"That would be like summoners being able to summon a pet that had CC and power regen better than what we have, but with a chance to break and attack the summoner.  If that happened, enchanters would be up in arms (rightly so), and by the same token if we got pets that easily ate through summoner pets, they would be up in arms. I agreee charm definitely needs work, but I also understand that care has to be taken not to make it too powerful."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Based on the current state of CC in this game, and the potential for change i see within it, it wouldnt bother this coercer one bit, on that particular. I started this class to CHARM first, everything else second. Had it not been for charm, id not even have played this game at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heres the deal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In order to be doing the dps were supposed to be capable of... (tier 3, and assuming our dots/nukes are unaltered, which i would prefer, or id have rolled a wizard/necro)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AND</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In order for the risk to fit the reward...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AND <BR></DIV> <DIV>In order for charm to be charm, where actual skill is required, instead of becoming just another pet class...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(and make no mistake, those 3 ARE the criteria that when met will fix charm)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is NO other way, except to have the weak spells we have, balanced against a terror of a pet, which can turn and bite us in the behind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any other way gives a pet whos risks outweigh its rewards, that groups wont want to deal with, will be less than signature quality for soloing, OR will be MUCH less than tier 3 DPS when combined with our weak spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Show me any alternative that meets the 3 criteria above.</DIV>

[tentim]

<DIV>As a Wizard who has been reading about your class closely lately, I really hope they do something. I was going to start a coercer and then I read what it was like <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Hopefully this is the start of many changes.</DIV>

[Bloodtoo]

<span><blockquote><hr>tentimes wrote:<div>As a Wizard who has been reading about your class closely lately, I really hope they do something. I was going to start a coercer and then I read what it was like <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Hopefully this is the start of many changes.</div><hr></blockquote>Thanks for the support.  Will be a great class when fixed.</span><div></div>

[Bloodtoo]

added charm bug to original post. <div></div>

[Kaan]

<DIV>Ok, lets first look at the definition of Coerce, as provided by Dictionary.com</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>co·erce</STRONG>  </DIV> <DIV><I>tr.v.</I> <B>co·erced,</B> <B>co·erc·ing,</B> <B>co·erc·es </B></DIV> <OL> <LI>To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.</LI> <LI>To dominate, restrain, or control forcibly: coerced the strikers into compliance. </LI> <LI>To bring about by force or threat: efforts to coerce agreement.</LI></OL> <P>Now, according to that lovely deffinition what would one assume is the main purpose of the Coercer?  As we all thought, to coerce the enemy into fighting for us.  Saddly mistaken were we who decided thats something we wanted, because obviously SOE has a different Deffintion of Coerce, perhaps this is more along SOE's line of what it means</P> <P>co-erce</P> <P>1.  To emplore an enemy to fight for the caster for 20-30 seconds, while watering down its abilities, of a 9 minute spell, before tuning on the caster and beating him senseless, at full potential, along with the already pulled mob.</P> <P>The charm line for the Coercer is one of the most horrid lines I think I've seen.  9 minute duration..Cool!  Why am I being attacked 30 seconds later..even though the mob is green double arrow down and my coerce spell is adept 1  >.>  Ridiculus.  So, that leaves us with our mezzes and stuns.  Cool, we can still function..right?  Crowd control is always a life saver..wait...SOE comes up with another brilliant plan, which I can only hope is a bug in itself, to make our Group Stun prevent AOEs.  Wait..thats good...So..Now, my warlock buddy won't break my stun..WONDERFUL....Oh..wait...Not only does it prevent my friends spells, but it also prevents itSELF.  [Removed for Content] is that? </P> <P>So, now we have this...we can't charm, one of the better spells which really control the crowds have been made more then tricky to use (though it still can be mind you..with terrible risks involved).  So..what do we have.  A class that has a few ok level DOTs...a good single mezz spell...but..his main spell line is Screwed...his main crowd controlling spell now prevents itself from being effective...which leaves us sitting there, telling our group as we recollect our bodies..."The group was stunned...but I couldn't refresh...by the time terrible awe was nearly casted again to restun them...they interupted me (Or killed me)." </P> <P>In short, don't get me wrong, I love my coercer...his charm line was bugged to all hell, but he could control those oh so horrid adds...until now.  If more then one add comes in then we have to..A) Wait for the mezz on the first to cast, B) wait for the mezz to recycle C) Recast mezz on other add...*repeat*  and hope that theirs not so many adds that our first Mezz doesn't ellapse before it recycles from the last we mezzed.</P> <P>SOE...Seriously take a look at the Coercer, I think you're trying to go in the right direction...but...nerfing one of our, IMO, best spells (Terrible Awe) is not the answer.  And fix our charm for crying out loud.  Either Make it perminent, while still watering down the mob or Make it less likely to break but dont' water the mob down no where near as much.  I'm sure more then one person agrees with that, and I'm not whinning about the class (It is after all an alt)...but I do see the errors with it and things that needs to be corrected.  Come on, we pay for this game just like everyone else...should we too not beable to find the our choosen class fun?</P>

[Akhm]

all i can say, GREAT POST

[Helliot]

<STRONG><FONT color=#ff6600>The charm line for the Coercer is one of the most horrid lines I think I've seen.  9 minute duration..Cool!  Why am I being attacked 30 seconds later..even though the mob is green double arrow down and my coerce spell is adept 1  >.></FONT></STRONG>  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All Damage spells of my lvl 24 Coercer are Adept III and I have the same problem with my charms  :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guys you really need to make some improvements for the Coercers.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Helliot on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:20 AM</span>

[Aaf]

This is great start SoE, but again, it is not nearly enough.  Fix Coercers, please.

[Krelfeari]

<P>guys, we got a mod response here, means this must have made it to the devs! lets celebrate! ALES AROUND THE HOUSE!</P> <P>p.s. thanks raijinn!</P>

[PigLick]

<div></div>Well, not to be a party pooper, but I'm pretty sure they've seen most/all of our other threads, and we've gotten a few responses before as well, so I'd say let's hold the celebrations until we see what sort of changes (if any) are going to be made. (Not to say I don't appreciate the dev response to confirm they've seen this, that's always nice, but without any positive changes to follow it's not really much of a reason to celebrate). PigLick <div></div><p>Message Edited by PigLickJF on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:11 AM</span>

[Trob]

<P>I like the fix they will add but why not just make it a seperate spell and keep Terrible Awe the way it is?  Make both use the same re-use timer so we dont gain another mez but have the choice to pick between the anti ae  ae mez or the regular one.</P> <P>Peace,</P> <P>Phite</P>