Proof there should be a way to disable SOGA to others

[TheyLi]

<DIV>Okay, as we all know SOGA is coming, and there is a somewhat unaddressed problem coming with it: other players using the new graphic settings could see you as something entirely different than you intended, hence this picture: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/Bloodl0ss/soga.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the left is the half-elf model that I use slight variations of for all of my main characters (turn your brightness up if you can't see it well enough). And on the right is the SOGA version of almost the same character, just with the skin & hair color changed to emphasize how effeminate they new models are (and the tear added in MS Paint to show how Emo he is). I do not want my character to look anything like that SOGA model to <EM>anybody;</EM> just being able to turn it off for myself is not enough. I messed around with the creation on test for a while and there is no way, I repeat, no way to even come close to replicating the look of my characters on the live servers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before anyone says it, I am aware that seeing the new models on <EM>my</EM> client is optional, but that does not solve this problem. The point i'm trying to make here is that there should be a way to disable others from seeing you as a SOGA model, and I know i'm not the only one who feels that way.  If you can't see the harm in having no control of your appearance to others, then look at it from a roleplaying perspective: roleplayers create a character with a specific vision & purpose in mind, but when something like this comes along it hinders the process. Roleplayers would often have to ask people whether they have Setting X on (or get them to turn a certain setting on/off beforehand), otherwise you'd have no way of knowing what others see you as. In other cases, people who couldn't be bothered to make a new customized appearance for SOGA, could unknowingly look like horrible emo/anime rejects like the one I made above, inducing laughter & ridicule from anyone who sees them; it's just not right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FInally, I am aware of the dev responses stating that being able to hide/show SOGA to others wouldn't be as simple as a /showhood or /hide_illusion, and the speculation that it could cause frame-rate problems, but come on now.. this game is supposed to be using one of the most advanced graphic engines to date (hence the very high settings that were designed for computers a few years in the future). I find it hard to believe that rendering a few extra models would somehow break the game. Okay, maybe if you got 22 different old models and 22 different SOGA models together in a small area it could slow the game down, but that would likely never happen, and the higher performance graphic settings would eliminate those issues since they don't even load the skin textures when that many characters are around. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, this is the testing feedback board and that is my feedback. If nothing else, keep in mind that a recent poll on a different site revealed that character customization is the most important thing for the majority of MMO players, and that whole ideal gets thrown out the window when others can completely change your percieved appearance with the click of a button.</DIV>

[Yirk]

Devs have said I don't know how many times that you will be able to customize both models to your liking. <div></div>

[Strade]

Me think its your real alter ego <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Deadly Nightshadow]

<DIV>Yes. When SOGA goes live you will have the option to customise both models separately.</DIV>

[Magu]

Lesson to be learned: Read before you post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[jordaann]

<div></div>I think you all are missing the OP point.  Seems to me he tried to create a new character on the test server and customize the look to be close to his perception of what he wants for the character he plays, but with the minimal options available to the SOGA characters is unable to find a look similar to what he has now.  So even when they add customization ability to our current characters he will be unable to find an image that will be acceptable to him. Personally I have not made up my mind if I like SOGA models or not.  I really don't understand why they insist pushing the SOGA models onto all the servers since they were designed for a small portion of the population(those that play on the japanese server). This is all a mute point most likely, these are all the same issues that came about when new models were introduced to EQ1 and all the complaints that were made then did not deter SOE from implementation.  Would not be suprised if sometime down the road they get rid of the option to use the non SOGA models (just like they did in EQ1) <div></div><p>Message Edited by jordaann on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:08 AM</span>

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

<P>The difference between the EQ1 model revamp was that the revamp was exactly that... a redo of the original models with a higher polygon count, because the engine could now handle it.</P> <P>These models were designed for a target, non-westerner audience. MG has already said multiple times that they were designed to appeal to the average person in asian pacific areas... not here. They were being provided to US/Euro servers because it's kind of a jerky thing to do to give a whole different look and not let most of the playerbase access to it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Obviously testing in the asian market has shown that the lesser amount of customization, lack of piercings, and emaciated look scored well. It will appeal to some in the US/Euro market, so it's an option for us... but never intended as a replacement. The "realistic" look is still the mainstay look for EQ2. </P>

[Dimgroth]

I love them, and its one of the saving points for a game thatd dieing by lack of variety for me. <div></div>

[inserthe]

So if i'm reading this right, our characters will have 2 different look's when it hit's live as it seem's you have to customize the SOGA model to look as close as you can to your current model?And as that's most likely impossible to get a close lookalike, the character you (may) have put time in picking out the exact eye colour, hair styling etc for, can then be seen as something 'completely' different to what you envisioned?Whilst character look's aren't important to some, I do care how my character look's. I'd be just as happy if they then said to me 'hmm, well move xx points of Int to Str, maybe Change a few points of Wis for a few Sta, switch Magic Resist with Disease, now doesn't that seem much nicer'Oh, and my characters a Sorceror, so the above stat changes would NOT be welcolmed.

[Rallan007]

<DIV>Why even bother customizing your look in SOGA models if u dont plan to use them.  Dont worry about insecurity or vanity, thats for real life (if at all) we should be able to get past that for a game,  make the character how you like it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People who see the same model might agree with you or might disagree totally, they might think you look totally ugly or a complete dork when u think you are a handsome hero. People who use the SOGA models might again think you look weird in the translation across from normal models .. or they might think that in normal US models u suck and in SOGA you rock just cos they like SOGA styling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is, dont worry about it, like what you yourself see, and dont worry about others opinions, preferances and models used cos they wont think the same as you anyway.</DIV>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jordaann wrote:<BR> I think you all are missing the OP point.  Seems to me he tried to create a new character on the test server and customize the look to be close to his perception of what he wants for the character he plays, but with the minimal options available to the SOGA characters is unable to find a look similar to what he has now.  So even when they add customization ability to our current characters he will be unable to find an image that will be acceptable to him.<BR><BR>Personally I have not made up my mind if I like SOGA models or not.  I really don't understand why they insist pushing the SOGA models onto all the servers since they were designed for a small portion of the population(those that play on the japanese server).<BR><BR>This is all a mute point most likely, these are all the same issues that came about when new models were introduced to EQ1 and all the complaints that were made then did not deter SOE from implementation.  Would not be suprised if sometime down the road they get rid of the option to use the non SOGA models (just like they did in EQ1)<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by jordaann on <SPAN class=date_text>10-29-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:08 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Read his post more closely. You'll find that he means that the SOGA model is completely different. After all,  why would he choose one model to be white and the other to be black if he was trying to make a close customisation?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT</DIV> <DIV>Sorry, you're right but still.....there are closer customisations than that.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by deadlynightshadow104528 on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:03 AM</span>

[TheyLi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magus` wrote:<BR>Lesson to be learned: Read before you post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Here's a lesson for you: Read before you Troll.</P> <P>I am aware we will be able to customize both appearances, that does not remedy the issue here. The point here is that to many players, there will be NO acceptable SOGA version of their character. In the case of half-elf, all of the hairstyles were changed, all piercings were removed, the body type itself was changed. The closest comparison I could make to my normal character still looks like a completely different race in SOGA, and I don't want to be seen as that to anybody. The one I created for the picture was an extreme example of how bad it can look, but the 'best' SOGA character I could come up with after 45 minutes was still not acceptable, hence the desire for an option to disable SOGA graphics on your character to others.</P><p>Message Edited by TheyLive on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:03 AM</span>

[Deadly Nightshadow]

<P>While I admit that there isn't a great SOGA substute to your character model, TheyLive, I made a quick recreation (no facial/size/eye changes etc) of your character and I think that it's at least reasonable. Here's a link to a picture.</P> <P><A href="http://img470.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled1copy9zy.jpg" target=_blank>http://img470.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled1copy9zy.jpg</A></P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by deadlynightshadow104528 on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:15 AM</span>

[Kodimus]

<DIV>The reason why has already been addressed over and over, so yeah, read before you post. If you don't like the reason, then simply quit. I'm sure there are fewer people that will be up in arms over how other people see their character than those who don't really care one way or the other.</DIV>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>jordaann wrote:<div></div>I really don't understand why they insist pushing the SOGA models onto all the servers since they were designed for a small portion of the population(those that play on the japanese server).<hr></blockquote>The SOGA models have absolutely NOTHING to do with the Japanese servers.  The SOGA models were created for the release of Everquest 2 East into the markets of China, Taiwan, and Korea.  The Japanese servers have been using the US models from the beginning and there had not been any plan for them to change.  But now we all get the OPTION of using these models or not using them.  We get the ABILITY to customize both sets for our single character.  I do not think that the SOE people could please a greater number of people on this issue if they tried.   As for why the SOGA models are being introduced on US servers, most individuals at the Fan Fair liked the images of these models and thought it would be good to have them as an option.  The developers obliged. Edit:  TO original poster, there are closer resemblances that could be made.  In any event, your character before looks just as unpleasant to me.  And I do not much care for your after image either.  I personally see the following image as masculine.  Well, defined jaw line, stern look, and set of abs. <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/icarus137/halfelf1.jpg"></span><div></div><p><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by AbsentmindedMage on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[Sufu]

Simply stop whining about how your char is gonna be fugly to those without SOGA turned on and whatnot. Heres the official reason from Moorgard as to why you won't disable SOGA to others:<span><blockquote><hr><span>Moorgard wrote: <blockquote> <hr> EtoilePB wrote:It strikes me that it's no fun letting someone ELSE decide how they see me.  I would have thought this owuld be like /showhood or /hide_illusion, and up to the player? <hr> </blockquote> <p>Unfortunately it isn't as simple as /showhood or illusions. We're introducing a substantial number of new models into the game, and with those new models come a host of necessary appearances and animations. It would be too demanding on the game client (and the majority of computer systems) to add 22 new models to the game, all of which could conceivably be on screen along with the existing character models. You think congested areas have low framerates now...</p> <p>That's why everyone has to choose which version of the player character models they want to see as they play. </p> <p>On the plus side, you'll be able to save two sets of customizations: one for the original models, one for the SOGA versions. That way you'll at least know how your character will be seen regardless of which models another player is using.</p></span><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Sinkat]

<P><FONT color=#ff3300>I think the soga models should be automatic, say you change the option to soga and then you it should just convert what you have to soga instead of having 2 ways of looking diferent, how unique can you be if you will look diferent depending on the option you have on?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Good Luck!</FONT></P>

[Dimgroth]

There ARE decent custimizations to match your old one (which I dont care for, but I hate the current models anyway) you just seem caught up on it too much and I dont see the point of whining to this extent.  Im looking forward to SOGA, so much so that im going through 7 hours of test patch right now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Cutan]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dimgroth wrote:There ARE decent custimizations to match your old one (which I dont care for, but I hate the current models anyway) you just seem caught up on it too much and I dont see the point of whining to this extent.  Im looking forward to SOGA, so much so that im going through 7 hours of test patch right now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Ha, I did the same thing. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> nice NIN sig </span><div></div>

[Strade]

I think what really matter is the perception. Maybe for you this look "[Removed for Content]" and you dont want to look that way. But be aware that people who's going to turn SOGA on like these look and when they will see you in game, would not say: HAHAHHA YOU THE [Removed for Content]!! but will think its cool and nice. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can understand how you feel about it but I for one really like the SOGA model and don't think this look [Removed for Content] or effeminate but are a part of a whole different culture that I like.</DIV>

[Rijacki]

There are some SOGA which are drastically different.  Orges anyone? I thought gnome females were relatively unaffected... until you see them from the side and look at the options for hair. Nose issue aside (but the gnome female nose is horrid), part of Rijacki's story, the reason for her profession, is linked to the fact she was born with fire red hair and crystal blue eyes... and it was the spikey firey hairstyle that inspired me. SOGA... no red hair for gnomes and the closest you get to the spikey or even -any- tousled is the swept back... <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rijacki/SOGA/face-sm.jpg"> Add to this the heroine addict look.... <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rijacki/SOGA/stickgnome.jpg"> Being able to customise both -may- work for some, but for many, there are NO options in the SOGA which come even relatively close to key things about the character's appearance. Really, what I would MUCH rather see is additional options to the existing models.. ONE model.. but those options come from the SOGA so that people can add the additional hair styles, elongated elf ears, body weight, even the plastic amine look. <div></div>

[Naggyba]

You know, if you don't like them, then turn them off, get over it and move on. Because you don't like something and insecure, doesn't give you the right to take that option away from others who DO like them. If someone sees your toon differently, so frillin what. Get over yourself and just move on.Trying to get an option to take away the option for others is just wrong.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:25 PM</span>

[Giral]

<P>I think Soga models was a Cheap, efficient way for SOE to NOT give more character customization to the Current Models , and to use a Cheap WoW rip off look ; ( , </P> <P>Why wouldn't they Expand on THERE Vision instead of using some cheap 3rd party WoW rip off look and someone Else's Vision of EQ2 ; ( , geesh that could have atleast Contracted out some more character customizations for the current models. and im sure there are also plenty of Artistic programmers that play EQ2 that could have created some way Better Soga Models than these  cooky cutter copy and pasted plastic looking things ; ( ,   </P> <P>  i swear the picture above someone stated as lookin Manly was frightening : ( it reminds me of a 16 year old's body or more to the point Leonardo DeCaprio : (      Gag Me please    that isn't a manly body in any way shape or form , and that pretty little face looks like somethin in a sunday morning kids cartoon or an old ladies catalog book with perfum adds and male models skinnier than the femal models : (. </P> <P>that pict the guy looks like he is 5 foot 5 and weighs 100 pounds , throw about 40 pounds of muscle on various parts of his body, this is an adventurer ? this guy climbs mountains and fights bears? this guy could break his arm trying to put in his hair jell (womans hair jell at that) </P> <P> </P> <P>lol i scrolled back up took another look : ) Ricky Schroder from Silver spoons Thats him in Soga model Hahahaha</P><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:23 PM</span>

[Dimgroth]

*Grin* I play on test server now till the SOGA models come out, theyre amazing! I love the improvements on all the male characters, the female ones look all very simular to each other but the general look of them isnt so bad, just a little too [Removed for Content] off looking.  I managed to make a great dark elf warrior, a kender named after Tasslehoff Burrfoot and a human warrior that looks like me (at least, before my haircut last month hahah) Warrior Within: <img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/Lord_Balthaazar1/EQ2_000015.jpg"> <img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/Lord_Balthaazar1/EQ2_000022.jpg"> <img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/Lord_Balthaazar1/EQ2_000033.jpg"> Tasslehof Burrfoot: <img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/Lord_Balthaazar1/EQ2_000042.jpg"> <img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/Lord_Balthaazar1/EQ2_000043.jpg"><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/Lord_Balthaazar1/EQ2_000051.jpg"> and lastly, the drow warrior: <img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/Lord_Balthaazar1/EQ2_000004.jpg"> <img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/Lord_Balthaazar1/EQ2_000012.jpg"> ( I love the new models, much improved in my opinion. Sorry for image quality, they uploaded huge and had to downsize them to put them here ) <div></div>

[Naggyba]

The MAJORITY of the playerbase wanted/wants SOGA models. That's why they are offering the OPTION to see one OR the other. SOE had nothing to do with trying to offer a cheap addition to make a change. It was the PLAYERS who asked for these. SOE just decided to give us the option after a LOT of players ASKED for them. Get your facts right.There are only a FEW and VERY FEW people that don't like them. The rest of the userbase likes them or doesn't care one way or the other. Just FEW people whinning about them.If you don't like them, don't turn them on. It's really that simple. No one cares if you are too vain that you don't want others seeing you differently than what you chose. Just get over yourself and move on. It's going live and that's it.The MAJORITY of us like them and want them.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>10-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:23 PM</span>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:There are some SOGA which are drastically different.  Orges anyone? I thought gnome females were relatively unaffected... until you see them from the side and look at the options for hair. Nose issue aside (but the gnome female nose is horrid), part of Rijacki's story, the reason for her profession, is linked to the fact she was born with fire red hair and crystal blue eyes... and it was the spikey firey hairstyle that inspired me. SOGA... no red hair for gnomes and the closest you get to the spikey or even -any- tousled is the swept back... <div></div><hr></blockquote>The Nose is what a gnome's nose is suppose to look like.  It is suppose to be huge and hook like.  Their ears are suppose to be pointed.  The current  model gnomes look like minature humans not gnomes.  That is an issue with many of the humaniod models.  The Elves looked like humans with pointy ears.  Elves are suppose to be slender attractive figures. <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/icarus137/gnomef.jpg"> Now, if you actually played with the customization options instead of coming here complaining about how you do not want to use these models at all, you would have seen that red hair is in fact an option for gnomes: <img src="http:///img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/icarus137/red1.jpg"> <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/icarus137/red2.jpg"> You have to be the only person though that I have seen complain about the hair not being spikey enough.  The red option is on the top bar of the hair colors.  You can adjust brightness of it through highlights and proper mixing of colors. </span><div></div>

[Rijacki]

There is a distinct difference between brown (which is the top option on the gnome hair palette), burgandy-ish brown (that you made), and orange-red of my character's hair.  If there was no difference, why is the orange offered to other races, i.e. wood elves?  If it was possible to make fire-orange-red with only the combos you have for gnomes, there would be no reason to make orange to red an option for -any- race. <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rijacki/SOGA/woodelf.jpg"><img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rijacki/SOGA/face-sm.jpg"> As for the single spike.... that's one of the options, too, for the current hairstyles.  If you look at the hairstyle in my sig, you will see which one she has.  Oh.... and no glasses for gnomes with SOGA... Frankly, I don't personally care if you have the SOGA models on or not.  You will see my character inacccurately, yes, but that's because you need your eyes fixed... Some wanted "proof" that you can't recreate current looks in SOGA, thus my own screenshots with my character.  To make something even semi-like my character, I will have to make a lot of compromises and still people will see her not as she is.  THAT was the point of the OP and others. <div></div>

[Kain]

<DIV>Only read the first post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cannot believe there is so much consternation about how other people will see your character. There are several people agonizing over this point. . . .jeez. . . .there are bigger issues in the game then people seeing you in way other then you like.</DIV>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>The top pallette is not brown.  It is the dark colors including the dark red that I showed in the screen above.  You can make the black hair, brown, red, and dirty blonde hair on that top pallette. What you are really asking for is not red, you want orange hair.  No, the soga female gnomes do not have the medusa hair style(what you are calling spikey).  We will see your character as you make it in the soga model set and that is all that matters to people who use those models.  Just as you will see their characters in the current model set as best as they can make them. Neither model set is perfect, people will be able to choose what they think is best and be done with it.  And yes, you CAN make close renditions of your current model in the soga model.  Your attempt to recreate your character was rather sad.   You said you wanted bright fire red hair yet you show an image of a blonde. Those accessories like glasses and things of that nature really never should have been options for races in my opinion.  I would much rather glasses be available to all races in game as a helm option.  Of course, since those current models have those accessories it reduces the likelihood that the other races will ever get those options as helms in game.  EDIT:  I just looked at the CURRENT model set for female gnomes, there is NO FIRE RED hair color for the current gnomes.  [Removed for Content], are you complaining about with the hair color?  It is the same colors as the soga hair colors.  Except for the fact that in the soga the highlights actually mix and let you create more colors.  The Gnome CURRENT and SOGA models have the SAME color palette for hair.  Do you not know difference between red and blonde? <div></div><p><span class="time_text"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/icarus137/liar.jpg"> </span></p><p><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by AbsentmindedMage on <span class=date_text>10-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 PM</span>

[Paddyo]

If the main concern is looking masculine, why did you choose to be ANY kind of elf?  Come On! ANYTHING but an elf!

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AbsentmindedMage wrote:<BR> The top pallette is not brown.  It is the dark colors including the dark red that I showed in the screen above.  You can make the black hair, brown, red, and dirty blonde hair on that top pallette.<BR><BR>What you are really asking for is not red, you want orange hair.  No, the soga female gnomes do not have the medusa hair style(what you are calling spikey).  We will see your character as you make it in the soga model set and that is all that matters to people who use those models.  Just as you will see their characters in the current model set as best as they can make them.<BR><BR>Neither model set is perfect, people will be able to choose what they think is best and be done with it.  And yes, you CAN make close renditions of your current model in the soga model.  Your attempt to recreate your character was rather sad.   You said you wanted bright fire red hair yet you show an image of a blonde.<BR><BR>Those accessories like glasses and things of that nature really never should have been options for races in my opinion.  I would much rather glasses be available to all races in game as a helm option.  Of course, since those current models have those accessories it reduces the likelihood that the other races will ever get those options as helms in game.  <BR><BR>EDIT:  I just looked at the CURRENT model set for female gnomes, there is NO FIRE RED hair color for the current gnomes.  [Removed for Content], are you complaining about with the hair color?  It is the same colors as the soga hair colors.  Except for the fact that in the soga the highlights actually mix and let you create more colors.  The Gnome CURRENT and SOGA models have the SAME color palette for hair.  Do you not know difference between red and blonde?<BR> <P><SPAN class=time_text><IMG src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/icarus137/liar.jpg"><BR></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><BR></SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by AbsentmindedMage on <SPAN class=date_text>10-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:24 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly what I wanted to post. My main is a gnome female and there was never the option of red hair for gnome. Not to mention that 90% of gnome female in game got this same hair model ...

[Diern]

<DIV>The models are not too bad, the problem I have with them is the lack of customisation, you are just going to see a bunch of clones running around if you turn them on. Now what I absolutely hate about them is often there is no direct customisation option available compared to the US models. I spent literally hours developing a look for my character when I first started playing because it is very important too me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Case in point, there is no long hair, braided option for human males, So I cannot create anything resembling how my character looks in US models with SOGA. This annoys me no end. people will have the option to see a character which I didnt choose. Yes i know you will be able to customise both models, but the SOGA are far too limited......</DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>Timeline: (IIRC)</P> <P>SOE decides to release EQ2 to an Asian market.  They realize that the current player models are probably not going to be a huge hit with the proposed market.</P> <P>SOE hires another company to design some new character models to be more inline with what their new customer base would be looking for.</P> <P>SOGA models are created.</P> <P>Screenshots of SOGA models are released on a few websites and eventually linked to the EQ2 forums.</P> <P>MG comments on what SOGA is.</P> <P>Players respond by saying they like/want the option to use the new models.</P> <P>Eventually this request was granted.</P> <P>All SOE is really doing is letting players have what they asked for.  They are also doing it in a way that should be of little concern to the people who do not like SOGA, as you can turn them off.</P> <P>It kind of irritates me that not everyone can see my toon in Very High Quality like I do.  It greatly takes away from his appearance imho.  Then I realize that *I* can see him that way, and that's truly all that matters.</P>

[Diern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>It kind of irritates me that not everyone can see my toon in Very High Quality like I do.  It greatly takes away from his appearance imho.  Then I realize that *I* can see him that way, and that's truly all that matters.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I see what you are saying, but I created the character to project how I wanted people to percieve him. High quality or not, there is still some continuity.</P> <P>There isnt with these soga models, and I think it makes the game inconsistant. </P>

[chadesh]

<P>Just be hopefull that they don't choose to force us to use them and alow us to turn them off. I made this character yesterday and then change to SOGA model. heres the result.</P> <P> </P> <P><IMG src="http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Salerene/EQ2_normal.jpg"></P> <DIV>Now the SOGA model. major differences</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y218/Salerene/EQ2_soga.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>nuff said.</DIV>

[Dimgroth]

I like the soga high elf better in those two pics, that hair irritates me (dont like curly) and the fact that they all look like michielle phifer is a big downplay for the us version.  I dont think theres anything to complain about considering you can still make custimizations in soga that look, if not exactly like your character, simular, or just go with a few simularities and make them look cool as hell, even if its not your exact us model (which I cant stand even more since Ive been on test with SOGA) my only worry is not everyone will see me in SOGA but oh well, im over it, why? Because I can make the us model of my soga characters to the best of my ability, and even if that ability isnt that much (considering how our current models look) it will be enough for those people who actually like the US models, and im fine with that. <div></div>

[Rijacki]

Each person has an opinion on which looks better/worse.  The current high elf above looks pretty and happy, a delicate flower... the SOGA one looks bedraggled and extremely displeased with something, definately not anything pretty or flower-like.  The player might have a character concept that is blithe and happy about life.  Does the perpetual scowl convey that?  (the slider for "upturn/downturn" for mouth in current does allow for a more scowly disgruntled look, so you could mimic the SOGA one for that) But... those who like the SOGA models can have them but they should realise they might not be seeing the character as the player intends.  Those who like the current models will also have to realise they might not be seeing a character as the player intends.  Some may want the perpetually scowly look (to me, the most "upturned" in SOGA you can get looks more like constipated than content), some may want the different types of hairstyles or the way one "blends" and the other doesn't (and those really can make 2 different and totally valid hair "statements").  Some may want the body colour range of one set or the other.  Some may want the extended ears of SOGA.  Some might like the super skinny waif look of SOGA (some might even wish for a way to let a character put on a few pounds).  Some might want the hooked or bulbous or plain or whatever nose of whichever set.  Some might like the forehead ridges and horns of the ogre.  Some might like.... I will say it again, I would -much- rather the SOGA features added as -features- to the current set allowing for a much wider range of possible customisations which would quite likely statisfy everyone.  The one thing I do find disgusting in these threads are those who deride and flame the personal preferences of others.  Never once have I told someone they had to think what I find better or worse is better or worse, jsut that they -are- different.  The one thing about the majority of the pro-SOGA people who have been posting is that they bash anyone who is saying the models are -different- if someone prefers the current over the SOGA.  I don't care if you like the SOGA.  I don't care that you can enable SOGA and I don't have to.  Those are completely immaterial and moot.  The point of the OP and others is that the SOGA and the current ARE different (and you can't get some looks in one which you can get in the other... in BOTH directions).  There are some people who don't care about the SOGA vs current better or worse, just that their character will end up looking -different- to some people and that difference is not what they want.  If your own view was all that mattered, why do the avatars show up in game differently except your own character to your own client?  Why are there so many different customisation choices and why do people want more?  Why does it matter what the armor and clothing and other gear look like?  It's only the stats that really matter, right?  Are the SOGA and current different? yes.  Is it possible to recreate every current model "look" in SOGA? no.  Is it possible to recreate every SOGA "look" in current? no.  Are there characters, not just on the roleplay servers or with the roleplayers, which the player(s) identify and identify with based on their avatar appearance? yes.  When SOGA is implemented, will some see characters one way but others see them another? yes.  Could that affect how some interact with those characters? possibly, if they look beyond the stats. Oh... and someone once asked who ever notices avatars... I do.  I have said to someone who looks really nice that they do.  I have also been told that myself.  In EQ1, I modified my character's hair colour at one point (made it less orangy-red and more deep auburn red.. wood elf) and the difference in how people acted toward me was remarkable, even wearing the same gear.  She was, to most, more "pretty" even though some didn't come right out and say it. Oh... and on the subject of dramtic differences between SOGA and non-SOGA for avatars... my half-elf boy with his streaky "skunky" hair would be impossible.  Not only would his piercings be gone (and the SOGA scars are so faint you can barely see them anyway), he would lose a the hair "statement" (which, yes, is very intentional). <div></div>

[Malkant]

<DIV>Point people are trying to make is ... and this is for either side soga or not: People want to be able to have an option to show their character to others in either soga or original character model view.  It would not be very hard for SoE to put in an option that allows the player to choose if their character was shown only in Soga or not in soga.  Give all players the choice to do this..and also to allow them to see everything else in soga/not in soga (unless certain players have checked the option to allow themselves to be viewed one way or another.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That will solve everyone's complaints... for the most part at least.</DIV>

[Mon]

<span><blockquote><hr>deadlynightshadow104528 wrote:<div></div> <p>While I admit that there isn't a great SOGA substute to your character model, TheyLive, I made a quick recreation (no facial/size/eye changes etc) of your character and I think that it's at least reasonable. Here's a link to a picture.</p> <p><a href="http://img470.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled1copy9zy.jpg" target="_blank">http://img470.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled1copy9zy.jpg</a></p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by deadlynightshadow104528 on <span class="date_text">10-29-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> You are wasting your time.  I doubt he ever even tried to find a configuration he could live with.  What he fails to understand is he has no right to determine which models I display on MY screen, only his.  Sure its his character, but by forcing all the old ugly models on me, in addition to the superior SOGA models, he is hindering the performance of the game on MY computer.  Plus, I have no desire to ever see some of the old models again when SOGA goes live (high elf male, both humans) regardless of what the character owner wants.</span><div></div>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<span><blockquote><hr>Malkantar wrote:<div>Point people are trying to make is ... and this is for either side soga or not: People want to be able to have an option to show their character to others in either soga or original character model view.  It would not be very hard for SoE to put in an option that allows the player to choose if their character was shown only in Soga or not in soga.  Give all players the choice to do this..and also to allow them to see everything else in soga/not in soga (unless certain players have checked the option to allow themselves to be viewed one way or another.)</div> <div> </div> <div>That will solve everyone's complaints... for the most part at least.</div><hr></blockquote>Ignoring the issue with performance which would be degraded from having to render so many more models(Soga+Current), </span><span> forcing the two into the same environment isnt going to work and is undesirable.   </span><span>Just like people do not want to see the soga models, there are people that do not want to see the current models anymore.   Personally, i do not want to see anymore Michael Jackson looking Wood Elves or Dark Elves (the two share the same model just recolored). Saying that the model sets are different is like saying the sky is blue.  Yes, of course not every option that is in the current is present in the soga.  Just as a lot of the stuff in the soga is not on the current models.  For example, the current models do not have the hair color variation that the soga models have. What I find upsetting is people coming here and spouting off things like they are facts?  I have heard people make comments like the majority of the player base does not want the soga models.  There is no basis for that statement.  No poll was ever conducted.  THere was immense support for them at Fan Faire and there has been a lot of support for them on the forums.  People have said that the Soga models were created for the japanese customers.  Again, that is another false statement.   They were created by a company trying to bring the game to China, Korea, and Taiwain. People complain about the soga models not adhering to the lore.  Well, many of the soga models are closer fits to the lore and closer representations from the eq1 ones.   In the current model set, Halflings and Gnomes do not have pointed ears as they did in the EQ1 models.  But both have pointed ears in the soga models.  People have complained about the lack of hair on the halfling feet in soga.  But to be frank, how often do we see halfling feet in game.  They are covered up with boots and armor.  Look how the current model differs from the EQ1 models for the Erudite.  People are not complaining about that, they got over that change.  People are complaining about the nose of the gnomes in soga, well, the gnome is suppose to have a huge hooked nose.  It had such a nose in the EQ1 models.  The current gnome model doesnt look like a gnome, it is a tiny human.  People have complained things about the soga models that are identical for the current models like hair color.   All the hair color for the current models is in the soga models.  Soga just has more due to the highlights blending. Finally, the most amusing statement that I have seen is talking about how there is little customization or variation in soga models.  Well, that is the same situation with the current models.  The only differences we have for most races is hair color/style and skin tone even on the highest detail.   Ultimately, I am tired of people stating their opinions as facts.  </span><div></div>

[Rystall]

<P>Some people love the SOGA version models, others like the US versions better, as evidenced by the animated discussion taking place.  The SOGA models are being supplied as an <EM>option</EM> to US players.  Like /cutemode it is a client based choice.  You will have the option to adjust your SOGA appearance if how others see you is a sensitive issue.  Because of the performance issues of having both sets present simultaneously on screen AND the clear style differences in the characters (many people would consider it far more intrusive to see a mix of the 2 styles of a characters race on their screen), there are no plans to have both versions of a race appearing at the same time.  Choice resides with the individual user as to what version (or combination of race versions) he/or she finds most appealing.  </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Rystall on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 AM</span>

[Warpax]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Rystall wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Some people love the SOGA version models, others like the US versions better, as evidenced by the animated discussion taking place.  The SOGA models are being supplied as an <em>option</em> to US players.  Like /cutemode it is a client based choice.  You will have the option to adjust your SOGA appearance if how others see you is a sensitive issue.  Because of the performance issues of having both sets present simultaneously on screen AND the clear style differences in the characters (many people would consider it far more intrusive to see a mix of the 2 styles of a characters race on their screen), there are no plans to have both versions of a race appearing at the same time.  Choice resides with the individual user as to what version (or combination of race versions) he/or she finds most appealing.  </p> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Rystall on <span class="date_text">10-31-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:28 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Thanks Rystall. I like most of the new SOGA models and the SOGA hair styles and the way the hair color tint dependingon the base and highlight color. I think its silly that people are having such issues with this. Its optional and as far as Im concerned YOU(other players) have no right to decide which models I see. Thanks devs for giving us the option to tweak both models sets to our own specifications. Thats way more than you had to do.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Warpax on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 PM</span>

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>baha love that eq1 picture, lol nothing beats the eq1 models</DIV>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rystall wrote:<BR> <P>Some people love the SOGA version models, others like the US versions better, as evidenced by the animated discussion taking place.  The SOGA models are being supplied as an <EM>option</EM> to US players.  Like /cutemode it is a client based choice.  You will have the option to adjust your SOGA appearance if how others see you is a sensitive issue.  Message Edited by Rystall on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:28 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The problem is that is you don't like the SOGA model, you DON'T have an option how people see you.<BR>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naggybait wrote:<BR>The MAJORITY of the playerbase wanted/wants SOGA models. That's why they are offering the OPTION to see one OR the other. SOE had nothing to do with trying to offer a cheap addition to make a change. It was the PLAYERS who asked for these. SOE just decided to give us the option after a LOT of players ASKED for them. Get your facts right.<BR><BR>There are only a FEW and VERY FEW people that don't like them. The rest of the userbase likes them or doesn't care one way or the other. Just FEW people whinning about them.<BR><BR>If you don't like them, don't turn them on. It's really that simple. No one cares if you are too vain that you don't want others seeing you differently than what you chose. Just get over yourself and move on. It's going live and that's it.<BR><BR>The MAJORITY of us like them and want them. <P>Message Edited by Naggybait on <SPAN class=date_text>10-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:23 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>First - prove your 'majority' and 'minority' figures.  posters on this forum are not a statisticly significant sample.  </P> <P>Second, you're wrong.  Players never asked for these models, SoE was having them deveoped for the Asian market before we, the players ever heard of them.</P> <p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[Warpax]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Naggybait wrote:The MAJORITY of the playerbase wanted/wants SOGA models. That's why they are offering the OPTION to see one OR the other. SOE had nothing to do with trying to offer a cheap addition to make a change. It was the PLAYERS who asked for these. SOE just decided to give us the option after a LOT of players ASKED for them. Get your facts right.There are only a FEW and VERY FEW people that don't like them. The rest of the userbase likes them or doesn't care one way or the other. Just FEW people whinning about them.If you don't like them, don't turn them on. It's really that simple. No one cares if you are too vain that you don't want others seeing you differently than what you chose. Just get over yourself and move on. It's going live and that's it.The MAJORITY of us like them and want them. <p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class="date_text">10-30-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:23 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>First - prove your 'majority' and 'minority' figures.  posters on this forum are not a statisticly significant sample.  </p> <p>Second, you're wrong.  <u>Players never asked for these models, SoE was having them deveoped for the Asian market before we, the players ever heard of them.</u></p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class="date_text">10-31-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:04 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Players did ask for them. We were not the reason they were made, but once we saw them  ALOT of us wanted them. as for the whine about " no control over which model  other see you as"  just get over it. YOU have no right to impose your view/choice on me or my computer when there is an option such as this.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Warpax on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:09 PM</span>

[Feaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diernes wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>It kind of irritates me that not everyone can see my toon in Very High Quality like I do.  It greatly takes away from his appearance imho.  Then I realize that *I* can see him that way, and that's truly all that matters.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I see what you are saying, but I created the character to project how I wanted people to percieve him. High quality or not, there is still some continuity.</P> <P>There isnt with these soga models, and I think it makes the game inconsistant. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I simpathise with you as I dont like most of the soga models ether and  my character's looks are very very important to me but in all reality you can not dictate to others how to see things.   Nor should anyone IMO.

[Naggyba]

First - the majority of the players on this forum DID ask for them. I don't have to prove anything. It's right here in these forums in black and white. Go look for yourself.Second - I'm not wrong at all. SOE had them made for the asian market and the players on this VERY forum got links and saw actual pictures posted. The players liked them and DID ask for the option of SOGA models. Do your research before you claim to be right. SOE did nothing more than grant what the majority of hte people on this forum asked for.You're still so stuck on yourself and insecure and vain that you think you have the right to take away my option ot see the models as I see fit on my own computer.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:15 PM</span>

[Doggi]

<DIV>I can't hear it anymore. It's just an OPTION!!</DIV> <DIV>If you like your character in the US Version, its fine for you!</DIV> <DIV>Some people like the SOGA Charakters, some not.... thats why SOE gives us the OPTION.</DIV> <DIV>Whine whine whine oh how evil is SOE for giving us an OPTION.......</DIV> <DIV>OPTION, nothing more, just an option, you don't need to turn it on.</DIV> <DIV>I do not really understand why some people don't get it in their head..... sry.....</DIV>

[TheyLi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Feawin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diernes wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>It kind of irritates me that not everyone can see my toon in Very High Quality like I do.  It greatly takes away from his appearance imho.  Then I realize that *I* can see him that way, and that's truly all that matters.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I see what you are saying, but I created the character to project how I wanted people to percieve him. High quality or not, there is still some continuity.</P> <P>There isnt with these soga models, and I think it makes the game inconsistant.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I simpathise with you as I dont like most of the soga models ether and  my character's looks are very very important to me but in all reality you can not dictate to others how to see things.   Nor should anyone IMO. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Oh really? Consider this then: What if SOE made a client-side graphics option that made all female characters in the game completely nude, and that any emote they did became a lewd/obscene animation. Would you have any problem with that, since you wouldn't see it personally, but thats how others could see you if they chose?</DIV>

[Eepop]

Even now, you don't really control how people see your character.  The appearance of your character can be pretty varied depending on what settings the viewing computer is running at. <div></div>

[JuJut]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheyLive wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV>Oh really? Consider this then: What if SOE made a client-side graphics option that made all female characters in the game completely nude, and that any emote they did became a lewd/obscene animation. Would you have any problem with that, since you wouldn't see it personally, but thats how others could see you if they chose?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Lol. Talk about a stretch.....you've gone off the deep end now.<BR>

[Cynto]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheyLive wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Feawin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diernes wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>It kind of irritates me that not everyone can see my toon in Very High Quality like I do.  It greatly takes away from his appearance imho.  Then I realize that *I* can see him that way, and that's truly all that matters.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I see what you are saying, but I created the character to project how I wanted people to percieve him. High quality or not, there is still some continuity.</P> <P>There isnt with these soga models, and I think it makes the game inconsistant.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I simpathise with you as I dont like most of the soga models ether and  my character's looks are very very important to me but in all reality you can not dictate to others how to see things.   Nor should anyone IMO. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Oh really? Consider this then: What if SOE made a client-side graphics option that made all female characters in the game completely nude, and that any emote they did became a lewd/obscene animation. Would you have any problem with that, since you wouldn't see it personally, but thats how others could see you if they chose?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/sarcasam on</P> <P><BR>Yeah, cause ya know, THAT comparison is SOOOO similar! Yup! SOGA models will have you humping gnome noses for every emote!</P> <P>/sarcasam off</P> <P>Get over yourself! If i wanted i could turn on /cutemode right now and comment about how your hardcore half elf assassin was sooo cute! and ya know what? It wouldn't make a bit of difference, because as lonng as YOU think you look hardcore, you look hardcore. Half the people in game make faces for their charachter I don't understand now, and they probably think they look cool/sexey/whatever. Frequently i wonder how many times their charachters parents family inbred to make them look like they have an extra chromasome or look completely insane.</P> <P>No one will see you the way you see yourself, and why? Because we all have different tastes. Just because you think you look cool dosn't mean that the other 99.999% of us don't think you look like a [Removed for Content]. Just relax, and deal with it, because reguardless of how much complaining you do, SOGA is coming, and you are powerless to stop it, period.</P>

[Schirf]

<P>Did you consider that some players may always play with Infravision turned on? Ever imagine how that character sees you?  I'd have no problem if some player wrote code to make all female Trolls (including mine) look, to him/her, as Ms. Pacman.   <EM>"No, you delusional freak, I don't have a huge yellow head."</EM>  I've always assumed that the Cats saw Rats as walking hunks of meat anyway.</P>

[Stavenh]

Ok, to get this straight.People are complainging, that their toons might or will look different on someone elses computer because that person selected to use some or all of the SOGA models.Check.Anyone complaining about this or demanding that Sony make it so it can be blocked have serious mental issues and needs to stop playing these games. The fact you want to make it so people you don't even know, playing miles and miles away see you as you want to be seen is very disturbing in many ways.It's people like this that ruin the game.

[TheyLi]

<DIV>It's not a stretch, thats an example that disproves the notion that people should have no say in how others see them. Someone could probably program an EQ2 mod that makes all female characters nude, and using your logic, nobody would have the right to complain about it even if 75%+ of the population of eq2 was using it. The fact of the matter is, just because some of you are satisfied with the SOGA version of your race, doesn't mean everyone is. I'm not trying to stop SOGA from coming, i'm saying there should be a choice in whether or not you are displayed as the SOGA model to others, because having a choice is never a bad thing. And as a matter of fact, there is no difference in the comparison I made, having my percieved appearance changed to a effeminate anime/emo reject is as offensive to me as the aforementioned nude mod might be to the 'victims' of it. I won't begin to explain why, because if you can't comprehend the notion of wanting a choice, you couldn't possibly understand the reasoning behind it.</DIV>

[Warpax]

<span><blockquote><hr>TheyLive wrote:<div>It's not a stretch, thats an example that disproves the notion that people should have no say in how others see them. Someone could probably program an EQ2 mod that makes all female characters nude, and using your logic, nobody would have the right to complain about it even if 75%+ of the population of eq2 was using it. The fact of the matter is, just because some of you are satisfied with the SOGA version of your race, doesn't mean everyone is. I'm not trying to stop SOGA from coming, i'm saying there should be a choice in whether or not you are displayed as the SOGA model to others, because having a choice is never a bad thing. And as a matter of fact, there is no difference in the comparison I made, having my percieved appearance changed to a effeminate anime/emo reject is as offensive to me as the aforementioned nude mod might be to the 'victims' of it. I won't begin to explain why, because if you can't comprehend the notion of wanting a choice, you couldn't possibly understand the reasoning behind it.</div><hr></blockquote>You have a choice. How YOU see YOUR characters is all up to you. Inr egards to how other see your character; why dont you pretend that everything is the way ot was before SOGA was made available. You will never know if a person sees you one way or the other unless you ask or they tell. What you dont know wont hurt you.</span><div></div>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>TheyLive wrote:<DIV>It's not a stretch, thats an example that disproves the notion that people should have no say in how others see them. Someone could probably program an EQ2 mod that makes all female characters nude, and using your logic, nobody would have the right to complain about it even if 75%+ of the population of eq2 was using it. The fact of the matter is, just because some of you are satisfied with the SOGA version of your race, doesn't mean everyone is. I'm not trying to stop SOGA from coming, i'm saying there should be a choice in whether or not you are displayed as the SOGA model to others, because having a choice is never a bad thing. And as a matter of fact, there is no difference in the comparison I made, having my percieved appearance changed to a effeminate anime/emo reject is as offensive to me as the aforementioned nude mod might be to the 'victims' of it. I won't begin to explain why, because if you can't comprehend the notion of wanting a choice, you couldn't possibly understand the reasoning behind it.</DIV><hr></blockquote>No you are wrong. Why? Because you are trying to force someone to do what you want, when it's not your dime they are playing on. This isn't a case of choice, this is a case of some one pathetically trying to force their own wants onto others. You are wrong, wrong, wrong. You don't have the choice to force someone to your standards. And the fact that it's over a video game is even more distrubing. And while I understand the idea behind choice, what you don't understand is that this isn't a case of choice. Your only putting it that way to try and sound logical. Again pathetic.Stop.<p>Message Edited by Stavenham on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span>

[Belgor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheyLive wrote:<BR> <DIV>It's not a stretch, thats an example that disproves the notion that people should have no say in how others see them. Someone could probably program an EQ2 mod that makes all female characters nude, and using your logic, nobody would have the right to complain about it even if 75%+ of the population of eq2 was using it. The fact of the matter is, just because some of you are satisfied with the SOGA version of your race, doesn't mean everyone is. I'm not trying to stop SOGA from coming, i'm saying there should be a choice in whether or not you are displayed as the SOGA model to others, because having a choice is never a bad thing. And as a matter of fact, there is no difference in the comparison I made, having my percieved appearance changed to a effeminate anime/emo reject is as offensive to me as the aforementioned nude mod might be to the 'victims' of it. I won't begin to explain why, because if you can't comprehend the notion of wanting a choice, you couldn't possibly understand the reasoning behind it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>But do you comprehend that it is not feasible from a performance standpoint to run all the models at once?

[Schirf]

<P>There is nothing lewd about the SOGA models.  The "nude model" example is typical irrational poster hyperbole and doesn't apply.  Ok, so the /cute mode isn't a perfect example either, but who cares?  We're talking about some people seeing a race (including your toon) differently from how other people see members of that race.   I'm not sure that this doesn't model real life, if you think about it.</P> <P>And you WILL have some control over how those people see your toon.   First, you can use the limited SOGA customizations and make your toon appear in some way.  No, it may not be the same, but at least you have choices.  Second, if that's not enough, wear a helm.  Thirdly, you can /exit and play a Kerran or leave EQII.  Then you'll be in total control...</P><p>Message Edited by Schirf on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 PM</span>

[x0rtrun]

Just a silly question about teh performance issue... Is it possible that in the future, say a year or so down the line, when average system specs increase, would it be possible to have the option of enabling both models sets at the same time? <div></div>

[Naggyba]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinnstein's Monster on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:30 PM</span>

[Warpax]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>x0rtrunks wrote:Just a silly question about teh performance issue... Is it possible that in the future, say a year or so down the line, when average system specs increase, <u>would it be possible to have the option of enabling both models sets at the same time? </u> <div></div><hr></blockquote>You cant see two different models for the same race at the same time.  when SOGA models are released there will be a new section under the options. You  check which race/gender you wish to use SOGA models. its not an all or nothing deal.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Warpax on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:30 PM</span>

[AstarothMM]

<span><blockquote><hr>TheyLive wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Oh really? Consider this then: What if SOE made a client-side graphics option that made all female characters in the game completely nude, and that any emote they did became a lewd/obscene animation. Would you have any problem with that, since you wouldn't see it personally, but thats how others could see you if they chose?</div><hr></blockquote>... I am for this feature.</span><div></div>

[Rystall]

Not just because of potential performance issues, but because they are two very different <EM>styles</EM>, it is up to the individual user to select which versions of each race that they see on their own systems.  <p>Message Edited by Rystall on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:17 PM</span>

[ShadowplayDarkstar]

<DIV>OK how about giving us the option then...of  if we   want to be able to  see  characters  in the form in which they choose to display ...regular or soga or see both at once.</DIV> <DIV>This way  we have 2 options  we can just  show what races and gender we want to display in what  form  OR we can choose to display all races and gender in both soga and  regular form .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure this may bog down a system and not mesh well for some  but for others ( like me ) who  can handle to pc hit  and  would prefer to see  tons of variation, soga and normal at the same time, we should have teh ability to  have this option.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont care abiout teh hit i would rather see both  displayed  at one time i feel it would offer  tons of  variation and it would also  put to bed the  ( thats not how i want people to see me debate ) , ill see you just how you want me to soga or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simply go to options and click how you want to be displayed  soga or  normal version for people who have both enabled.     It becomes another option ...we all win </DIV><p>Message Edited by ShadowplayDarkstar on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:28 PM</span>

[Sem]

<P>I'm nearsighted but theatres still let me in to watch performances even though the actors might not like having fuzzy faces /boggle</P> <P>It's not like they're letting me draw moustaches and horns on your character that only me and my friends can see to poke fun at you - this is something only each player sees.  You dont' own the "rights" to your look.   Besides, it's already something out of your control - set down your glass before you do it because otherwise your monitor will get sprayed but try /cutemode  Hideous isn't it?   </P> <DIV>Only option if it bothers you is to go in and adjust your appearance for both forms so you can create a single look you like both ways.  Sadly, nothing can be done for bobblehead /cutemode</DIV><p>Message Edited by Semma on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:49 PM</span>

[BostonFNO]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ShadowplayDarkstar wrote:<BR> <DIV>OK how about giving us the option then...of  if we   want to be able to  see  characters  in the form in which they choose to display ...regular or soga or see both at once.</DIV> <DIV>This way  we have 2 options  we can just  show what races and gender we want to display in what  form  OR we can choose to display all races and gender in both soga and  regular form .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure this may bog down a system and not mesh well for some  but for others ( like me ) who  can handle to pc hit  and  would prefer to see  tons of variation, soga and normal at the same time, we should have teh ability to  have this option.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont care abiout teh hit i would rather see both  displayed  at one time i feel it would offer  tons of  variation and it would also  put to bed the  ( thats not how i want people to see me debate ) , ill see you just how you want me to soga or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simply go to options and click how you want to be displayed  soga or  normal version for people who have both enabled.     It becomes another option ...we all win </DIV> <P>Message Edited by ShadowplayDarkstar on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900> I would prefer this idea myself. I would love to have so many more unique characters to play along with. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>And on that note... Add some new races SOE!</FONT></DIV>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rystall wrote:<BR> Not just because of potential performance issues, but because they are two very different <EM>styles</EM>, it is up to the individual user to select which versions of each race that they see on their own systems.  <P>Message Edited by Rystall on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>*mumbes* .. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"<EM><U>different styles</U></EM>" </DIV> <DIV>.. well in some cases you can see a definite difference (good/bad/neutral) in the models but in some they are so close that they appear to be just different shadings of the same character makeup  .. (just from looking through the SS's others have posted).       </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never opposed the right to have SOGA models for others but I like so many others wish they could have been added in a way as to give us more model options than just basically having (2) different views of the same game.  Because that's what we are going to have now.  People will be taking SS's and posting them and the owner of the Characters in question are going to be going "that's not me!"  .. etc ..  but *shrug* it's been said over and over again that it can't be done.   .... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>Soooo, how about going through the Soga models and the Good/Bad of what people are saying about them .. and .. do a few updates to our existing US models?  Might be a bit time consuming but maybe after the 1st month after these hit live and "everyone" has had a chance to check them out in various ways .. do a in game survey of the best/worse aspects of the SOGA models .. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Since by giving us the option to change the Our World View to SOGA from the US (or even a combo) they still aren't addressing the majority of players desire for Differences in our Characters .. they are in fact giving us a way to limit our views even more since SOGA models don't have the broad range of choices that the US characters do .. The models will be "new" and have a "new" feel for approximately 2 months before people get annoyed about seeing their "twins" @ every 1 of 7 of the same race.    (<EM>totally just a an approx .. but since the SOGA models don't have the same amount of slider options that the US have / combos get alot more narrower and you have a better than average chance at finding your "twin" faster than in the US version</EM>).   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*tired shrug* </DIV></DIV>

[Stavenh]

<P>Wow, some people can complain about anything.</P> <P>And no, that isn't a complaint, that's an observation.</P>

[retro_guy]

<P>I really think the whole Soga thing will go away after those that are interested in them have had a play and gotten bored.</P> <P>After all I enjoyed wearing a pumpkin on my head for a few days,but after that I went back to normal and went on my merry way. Same with cutemode, it loses any interest after about 10 seconds, especially when you realise that noone else sees you that way.</P> <P>Soga will be the same, it's just another interesting distraction, but nothing of substance.</P>

[tracheaspider]

<P>First off, I love a lot of Asian style video game character models, so when I first heard what SOGA models were, I was excited.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Then I saw what EQ2 was getting.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I honestly don't understand the hype or the supposed appeal.<SPAN>  </SPAN>To me, they look second rate and unfinished.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If nothing else, they don't look ENOUGH like Asian fantasy game models, but more like strung out, angsty Asian pop stars.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And while the original models are far from perfect themselves, I worked hard on all my characters to make them look as appealing (or interesting) as I could within the limitations of what was available and I enjoy presenting my creations to the rest of my server.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Of course I'll be designing their SOGA versions when LU16a hits Live, but since I don't like the SOGA look, it's a little saddening to me that many people will be seeing the models I do not favor.<SPAN>  </SPAN>No, it's not a big, game-ending deal and, aesthetically, the worse solution is to have both types visible at the same time, but I do understand wanting to be seen one way and not the other.</P> <P>Furthermore, there's nothing stupid in finding a bit of identity in the way your character looks.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And, humans being the sight-based creatures we are, DO take appearances into consideration when interacting with others.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I don't think it's out of line to feel some people will be seeing someone less "you" if you can't remake your character along the lines you currently identify with. <SPAN> </SPAN>That being said, I accept that there's nothing I can do about it (and am grateful that I will still be able to see my "selves" as I prefer), but I can still wish it were otherwise.</P>

[MisguidedAngel]

<DIV>Why complain about the SOGA? The original models all look like cheap cookie-cutter fantasy characters anyway.</DIV>

[Nahlis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rystall wrote:<BR> Not just because of potential performance issues, but because they are two very different <EM>styles</EM>, it is up to the individual user to select which versions of each race that they see on their own systems.  <P>Message Edited by Rystall on <SPAN class=date_text>10-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Rystall, was just wondering if there were any plans for further future development of SOGA models?  Specifically, can we ever expect any alternative styles for Trolls, or is what is there currently all that there are any plans to have?  I rather like Trolls as they are, but as you mentioned above the 'styles' are very different and seeing standard style Trolls next to the SOGA models is rather.... strange.  :smileytongue:

[Dimgroth]

I understand your desire to force the old us models on us who love SOGAs changes, however, i must speak bluntly when I say that I have no intention whatsoever of seeing the old us models again in my days for a majority of the character models, no chance in hell, thanks but no thanks, keep your old models to yourself on your client, im happy, youre happy, or [Removed for Content] off, but I dont care about that. <div></div>

[Rystall]

<P>Vanyari, That all depends on what SOGA schedules for the Asian/Pacific version of EQ2.  SOGA has had a favorable response to what they refer to as the "monster races", troll, kerra, froglok, ratonga, and iksar, so as far as I am aware there are no short term plans to add others, (but if they ever do, they likely would be incorporated into the US version, now that the implementation has been worked out).  However I haven't heard of any plans to change them.</P>

[Snublefot]

Would it be technically possible to include the option "show both"? Its already possible to all but kill performance trough other gfx-settings in the client, so I can't see how performance should be a factor as long as its not enabled by default. It should be a choice. Choice is good :p<div></div>

[Nari]

I'd take the hit to show both.  I already upgraded to play this game twice.  I'm not afraid. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[trogg do]

<DIV> The choice should be made to the player who wants or doesnt want to be displayed as a soga character. Not to the player who wants to view everyone as soga or original characters.  If they cant do this then they should leave it.</DIV>

[dread du]

<div></div>I insist that if I have /cutemode on that everybody else must view me with a huge head.  If they can't do that then they shouldn't add the SOGA models... it is obvious ... duh. ((oh, that was sarcasm... just in case anybody didn't get it)) <div></div><p>Message Edited by dread duur on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 AM</span>

[jordaann]

It seems that a lot of people are telling those that are against the soga models tuff **it .  To those let me ask when you create a new toon would you be satisfied with the toon looking to you as you chose but when it comes to other people it would randomly display any race and look combination? Personally I like some of them and dislike others but telling people they are being vain and stupid to want their characters to appear like they chose during character creation is a bit short sited. Also you are taking features away from user by implementing model which have limited customizing ability(this was stated by MG that they were limited on purpose) even if you give the option to turn on and off. I am a bit perplexed why they took the desires of a small portion of the subscriber base and just assumed everyone else wanted it.  I did see some discussions about soga but never paid much attention assuming SOGA was only for the asian market. Btw asking people at fanfaire does not consitute a majority. <div></div>

[Warpax]

<span><blockquote><hr>Snublefot wrote:Would it be technically possible to include the option "show both"? Its already possible to all but kill performance trough other gfx-settings in the client, so I can't see how performance should be a factor as long as its not enabled by default. It should be a choice. Choice is good :p<div></div><hr></blockquote> What are you talking about "show both"? How can a person see two different models of the SAME RACE/GENDER at the same time? That would totaly break immersion and continuity for EVERYONE. Bad Idea!</span><div></div>

[Naggyba]

<blockquote><hr>Rystall wrote:<P>Vanyari, That all depends on what SOGA schedules for the Asian/Pacific version of EQ2.  SOGA has had a favorable response to what they refer to as the "monster races", troll, kerra, froglok, ratonga, and iksar, so as far as I am aware there are no short term plans to add others, (but if they ever do, they likely would be incorporated into the US version, now that the implementation has been worked out).  However I haven't heard of any plans to change them.</P> <hr></blockquote>I have you know I am offended. Being referred to as a Monster race? I'm sorry but my Kerran does not see himself as a monster. It's those gnomes and elves and others that are monsters. Monster race, hmmmmmph, I never. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I call to my brothers to stand up and demand that we be seen as NOBLE races. I have a good mind to file a complaint with ... well, there has to be someone in Norrath I can complain to. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I demand the option to FORCE people to see me as a noble race and not a monster. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Naggyba]

<blockquote><hr>jordaann wrote:It seems that a lot of people are telling those that are against the soga models tuff **it .  To those let me ask when you create a new toon would you be satisfied with the toon looking to you as you chose but when it comes to other people it would randomly display any race and look combination? Personally I like some of them and dislike others but telling people they are being vain and stupid to want their characters to appear like they chose during character creation is a bit short sited. Also you are taking features away from user by implementing model which have limited customizing ability(this was stated by MG that they were limited on purpose) even if you give the option to turn on and off. I am a bit perplexed why they took the desires of a small portion of the subscriber base and just assumed everyone else wanted it.  I did see some discussions about soga but never paid much attention assuming SOGA was only for the asian market. Btw asking people at fanfaire does not consitute a majority. <div></div><hr></blockquote>It was FAR from a small portion of people that wanted them. Just because you didn't pay attention doesn't mean others didn't. If you didn't pay attention, then how do you know it was only a small portion?Whining because someone sees you differently than you first set your toon up as is being vain, insecure and silly. Demanding that you have the option to not allow someone to see you the way they want ot on their own computer is silly. I turn /cutemode on periodically for the fun of it. I guess you are goingot whine about that too and demand that I am not able to see you with a big head?

[Terabethia]

<DIV> <P><FONT face=Georgia color=#3399ff size=2>Just my 2cp...</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Georgia><FONT color=#3399ff><FONT size=2>First off, I don't particularly enjoy the soga models, and I won't be using them. <SPAN class=701112917-01112005>However, I don't think that ANYONE has the right to determine how someone else's PC see's things. As many have pointed out, with just a few clicks I can see you in several ways, including the funny but annoying after a while /cutemode. So no, you don't have a choice now, you won't have a choice then, and you should NEVER have a choice over what my PC is doing in my home. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Georgia><FONT color=#3399ff size=2><SPAN class=701112917-01112005>There are many people who prefer the old model, and many who prefer the new. Everyone will get the option now to use whichever they want, but if they decide that they never want to see the old model again, that's their choice, and no one cares that you don't want them to see you that way. Besides, which all of the current problems with EQ2 (not to bash them, just pointing out they have many faults), this should not be what you are choosing to focus your complaints on. Pick your battles wisely, there is no point fighting for something you will never win.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Georgia><FONT color=#3399ff size=2><SPAN class=701112917-01112005>Oh, and 1 other thing... What is with the comparison about making all models nude? Are you kidding me?? I am not sure that your comment could have even been a farther stretch, and was quite ignorant. The current topic is regarding an inoffensive and highly desired OPTION, the other is referring to the exact opposite, and it would never happen. And your idea that someone could write a UI to do it, well... that would be against the SoE rules. However, to be honest, if someone wants to see all char's nude, I can't really say that I care how someone else chooses to see me, and you shouldn't waste your time caring, either.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Terabethia on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 AM</span>

[Snublefot]

Well, define you and define other. As the plan goes "other" have the option of chosing what models they want shown on their client. "You" have the option of customizing the look for both models. What I ("you") would like to have is a "default" flag set on the two customized looks. Of course one of the models would be checked as "default" by default :smileyvery-happy: Now, if "other" have selected to show <STRONG>both</STRONG> model sets in game it would be my (eg "you") default model that would be shown. In other words what some ask for here. On the other hand "other" would have the ability to only show <STRONG>one of the model sets, </STRONG>in case it ruins performance or as you put it immersion. The diffrence between SOGA human male and Original human male aint that huge is it? Hardly breaks any immersion in my case, and again, its a choice you have to make.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warpax wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snublefot wrote:<BR>Would it be technically possible to include the option "show both"? Its already possible to all but kill performance trough other gfx-settings in the client, so I can't see how performance should be a factor as long as its not enabled by default. It should be a choice. Choice is good :p<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What are you talking about "show both"? How can a person see two different models of the SAME RACE/GENDER at the same time? That would totaly break immersion and continuity for EVERYONE. Bad Idea!<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warpax wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snublefot wrote:<BR>Would it be technically possible to include the option "show both"? Its already possible to all but kill performance trough other gfx-settings in the client, so I can't see how performance should be a factor as long as its not enabled by default. It should be a choice. Choice is good :p<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What are you talking about "show both"? How can a person see two different models of the SAME RACE/GENDER at the same time? That would totaly break immersion and continuity for EVERYONE. Bad Idea!<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How would it break immersion?  </P> <P>*goes into faux RP mode*</P> <P>So I got this flyer the other day delivered to me by a special fleet of goblins ..  Apparently someone is opening up a special Day Spa .... The Norrath Necro-Gnome Day Spa was it's name .. Apparently a joint effort between 2 Gnome Brothers (one is a Necro and one is a Templer)  At least their family never has to worry about the inconvience of death ..  *snickers*</P> <P>So as I stood there reading the flyer, along with a small group gathered around the mailbox, I couldn't help but over hear the silly comments people were making.  Everyone seemed to be divided over the options available .. some were even mad that someone even developed the idea that would make anyone different than what their god(s) made them in the first place .. some were mad that others would expect them to have to endure such cost to be viewed as the "beautiful people" . ...  </P> <P>I think everyone has the right to decide to pay for "necro-gnome" surgery  or not ... just because I find it strange that someone would want to actually shell out tons of plat to suck the fat & muscle out of their legs .. it's their body! ..  What matters the most is how they view themselves as long as they don't mind me being happy with myself ..</P> <P>My hubby happens to be very happy with the body that Tunare blessed me with  ... though *looks guilty* I do wish Tunare had blessed me with a slightly bigger bosum.  *sigh* ... I have seen his eyes catch on those few Barbarian Women that visit the Willow Wood from time to time ... But, I think my "whole" is much more than just sum of my parts .. even my tiny [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] .. at least they are perky!  *smiles happily*</P> <P>I know a few High Elves that will totally look down on anyone who goes through with the "necro-gnome" surgery but I am a close friend to many of Humans, of whom were not quite so blessed by their deity, that will line up to pay out of the wazoo for the miracle "Face Chill Freeze" and the "Troll Fat" lip injections ...  *ponders if it really is troll fat ... * as well as the "Fleshweave" Breast Reduction program.  ....</P> <DIV>Though, why they think they will be able to actually make money on the "Halfing Reducer pills" is frankly beyond me !   Never meet a Halfling that wasn't proud of their plumpness and actually endevoured to gain more ... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh! I also read there was a special discounted program for the female Dwarves for a daily dose of something called "E-lec-Troll-Assist" ... I am very confused about the brochure's description .. If I understood it correctly .. there were specially trained Trolls standing by to assist in the removal of the female's facial hair .. *shrug* .. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*sigh* *crumbles up the flyer and throws it in the nearest trash bucket* Oh! Well!  To Each their own .. Now if I could only unlock the secrets of that Alchemist's Journal on LoY Dyes .. I am sure I could make as much money as those Gnome Brothers will be for the next few months ... </DIV>

[Schirf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jordaann wrote:<BR>[W]hen you create a new toon would you be satisfied with the toon looking to you as you chose but when it comes to other people it would randomly display any race and look combination? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This isn't the situation we're in, but let's run with it with a small modification.  Let's say there is a "switch" that allows players to see random appearance for toons.  Not everyone will use the switch, and those that do will not be able to use appearance to identify characters they encounter.  THIER LOSS!  Would I use the switch?  No.  Would I complain that others can see a random toon instead of the toon I created?  No!  If they want to see a random character appearance then it's their stupidity.</P> <P>But we're not in this situation.  You'll be able to control how your character appears to others if you like.  You'll be able to adjust the look of your character using both models.  You want to limit people to seeing you one way; using the older model.  Are you prepared to see others using the same rules?  i.e. Will you enjoy the game as much if you're also forced to see their SOGA model?  I wouldn't.  But really, that's what you're asking for.  </P> <P>By asking for the ability to force everyone to see your original model you're really asking for a forced mixed-model environment, where everyone is forced to have both SOGA elves and the original elves, SOGA halflings and the original halfings, SOGA ogres and the original ogres... yuck!</P><p>Message Edited by Schirf on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:10 AM</span>

[Dimgroth]

regardless of anything said, I can see what I want on my clientside and im all set. (btw, those are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about people not seeing your character in us models how you like them is not such a big issue, one, you can custimize it to be to the best of your judgement for both soga and us and two, I would find your character better looking in soga for the most part , so deal with it ) <div></div>

[Gill]

<P>What I find disturbingly humerous is that the cries for the 'option' to allow both versions of each model to be displayed at the same time do nothing to address the issues of those that cannot bear the thought of other players seeing them in the SOGA version instead of the standard version (or vice versa).  Even if that additional option was added, with the associated performance hit, most players still wouldn't use it and, therefore, the complainers would still have no control over how we viewed them.</P> <P>What I just find disturbing is that some people are so irrationally worried about how other people may view a computer generated character in a game, but do not seem to care in the slightest how their words on the forums portray them to those exact same players.  Particularly when they have almost no control over how their characters are seen already. With the huge range of systems used to play and associated performance options (many of which do things like changing hair colour), gamma and colour controls, monitor settings and even /cutemode, any character in game now will likely look at least slightly different to other players and may well look completely different, particularly when considering min spec machines vs top of the line.</P> <P>Reading through these posts for the last few weeks it has become obvious that this issue is not even about the visualisation of game characters - its about control, and the inability of a small number of people to release even the smallest degree of control to others, even if the actuality of the control was illusory in the first place.  That is why we got the absurdity of the 'nude patch' comparison and why the OP didn't even attempt to make the SOGA character look like the original one, even though subsequent posters showed it was entirely possible.</P>

[Salmastryon]

<span><blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<div> *goes into faux RP mode*</div> <p>So I got this flyer the other day delivered to me by a special fleet of goblins ..  Apparently someone is opening up a special Day Spa .... The Norrath Necro-Gnome Day Spa was it's name .. Apparently a joint effort between 2 Gnome Brothers (one is a Necro and one is a Templer)  At least their family never has to worry about the inconvience of death ..  *snickers*</p> <p>So as I stood there reading the flyer, along with a small group gathered around the mailbox, I couldn't help but over hear the silly comments people were making.  Everyone seemed to be divided over the options available .. some were even mad that someone even developed the idea that would make anyone different than what their god(s) made them in the first place .. some were mad that others would expect them to have to endure such cost to be viewed as the "beautiful people" . ...  </p> <p>I think everyone has the right to decide to pay for "necro-gnome" surgery  or not ... just because I find it strange that someone would want to actually shell out tons of plat to suck the fat & muscle out of their legs .. it's their body! ..  What matters the most is how they view themselves as long as they don't mind me being happy with myself ..</p> <p>My hubby happens to be very happy with the body that Tunare blessed me with  ... though *looks guilty* I do wish Tunare had blessed me with a slightly bigger bosum.  *sigh* ... I have seen his eyes catch on those few Barbarian Women that visit the Willow Wood from time to time ... But, I think my "whole" is much more than just sum of my parts .. even my tiny [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] .. at least they are perky!  *smiles happily*</p> <p>I know a few High Elves that will totally look down on anyone who goes through with the "necro-gnome" surgery but I am a close friend to many of Humans, of whom were not quite so blessed by their deity, that will line up to pay out of the wazoo for the miracle "Face Chill Freeze" and the "Troll Fat" lip injections ...  *ponders if it really is troll fat ... * as well as the "Fleshweave" Breast Reduction program.  ....</p> <div>Though, why they think they will be able to actually make money on the "Halfing Reducer pills" is frankly beyond me !   Never meet a Halfling that wasn't proud of their plumpness and actually endevoured to gain more ... </div> <div> </div> <div>Oh! I also read there was a special discounted program for the female Dwarves for a daily dose of something called "E-lec-Troll-Assist" ... I am very confused about the brochure's description .. If I understood it correctly .. there were specially trained Trolls standing by to assist in the removal of the female's facial hair .. *shrug* .. </div> <div> </div> <div>*sigh* *crumbles up the flyer and throws it in the nearest trash bucket* Oh! Well!  To Each their own .. Now if I could only unlock the secrets of that Alchemist's Journal on LoY Dyes .. I am sure I could make as much money as those Gnome Brothers will be for the next few months ... </div><hr></blockquote>lol That's great!  I think that is the best comment I've seen on this whole thing. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[AbsentmindedMage]

So, I guess all those people who are complaining about all the "hard work" they have put into their designing their character will never use the /face option that is coming to change their appearance.  I mean if you really are perfection changing that hairstyle/color or skintone would be ruining perfection. I could understand the complaints if you actually designed your character from the ground up.  But you didnt design your character from the ground up, you took the OPTIONs available to you in the creation screen to create a character that you felt would be one that you could identify with in game.  Well, there are not many options on the current or the soga creation screen.   So, the issues of being UNIQUE are not present.   Your character looks like most other characters.   So, I do laugh when I hear about how the soga models will ruin all of your "hard work" on your character. In any event, the way your current character looks can remain that way.  The new model set data will be stored separately from the current one.  <div></div>

[Bethin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naggybait wrote:<BR>The MAJORITY of the playerbase wanted/wants SOGA models. That's why they are offering the OPTION to see one OR the other. SOE had nothing to do with trying to offer a cheap addition to make a change. It was the PLAYERS who asked for these. SOE just decided to give us the option after a LOT of players ASKED for them. Get your facts right.<BR><BR>There are only a FEW and VERY FEW people that don't like them. The rest of the userbase likes them or doesn't care one way or the other. Just FEW people whinning about them.<BR><BR>If you don't like them, don't turn them on. It's really that simple. No one cares if you are too vain that you don't want others seeing you differently than what you chose. Just get over yourself and move on. It's going live and that's it.<BR><BR>The MAJORITY of us like them and want them. <P>Message Edited by Naggybait on <SPAN class=date_text>10-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:23 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your comments are just as silly as people who say no one wants them or likes them.</P> <P>Unless you have a real scientific survey of people who actually play the game and can give me hard numbers EITHER way then no one should comment on how many people like or dislike the models.</P> <P>But since we are all just guessing on what the majority wants or doesn't want, the safest bet would be to say the majority doesn't care either way.</P>

[Snublefot]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bethinna wrote: <P>But since we are all just guessing on what the majority wants or doesn't want, the safest bet would be to say the majority doesn't care either way.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And thats probably the closest to the truth :p<BR>

[Naeramar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Naggybait wrote:It was FAR from a small portion of people that wanted them. Just because you didn't pay attention doesn't mean others didn't. If you didn't pay attention, then how do you know it was only a small portion?Whining because someone sees you differently than you first set your toon up as is being vain, insecure and silly. Demanding that you have the option to not allow someone to see you the way they want ot on their own computer is silly. I turn /cutemode on periodically for the fun of it. I guess you are goingot whine about that too and demand that I am not able to see you with a big head?<hr></blockquote>Please do us all a favor. Point the way to where the statistics are for this statement of yours, and the other statements of yours concerning what the EQ2 playerbase wants. Can you honestly say you speak for the majority of the playerbase or is that just unsubstantiated nonsense? Saying that "the majority" wants something without actually having the numbers to back it up is a fool's errand. Even if it's a majority of posters on this board, the total number of posters here doesn't even BEGIN to approach a majority of the EQ2 playerbase. It's all well and good if you prefer the SOGA models and want to campaign your heart out for them, but don't make claims about what the supposed "majority" prefers unless you have actual proof to back it up. That being said, I think the SOGA models look horrible and I'll be avoiding them like the proverbial plague.</span><div></div>

[Nubbin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bethinna wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naggybait wrote:<BR>The MAJORITY of the playerbase wanted/wants SOGA models. That's why they are offering the OPTION to see one OR the other. SOE had nothing to do with trying to offer a cheap addition to make a change. It was the PLAYERS who asked for these. SOE just decided to give us the option after a LOT of players ASKED for them. Get your facts right.<BR><BR>There are only a FEW and VERY FEW people that don't like them. The rest of the userbase likes them or doesn't care one way or the other. Just FEW people whinning about them.<BR><BR>If you don't like them, don't turn them on. It's really that simple. No one cares if you are too vain that you don't want others seeing you differently than what you chose. Just get over yourself and move on. It's going live and that's it.<BR><BR>The MAJORITY of us like them and want them. <P>Message Edited by Naggybait on <SPAN class=date_text>10-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:23 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your comments are just as silly as people who say no one wants them or likes them.</P> <P>Unless you have a real scientific survey of people who actually play the game and can give me hard numbers EITHER way then no one should comment on how many people like or dislike the models.</P> <P>But since we are all just guessing on what the majority wants or doesn't want, the safest bet would be to say the majority doesn't care either way.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Let me see if I can figure this all out.</P> <P>For the past year, I've read countless posts on this board about how greedy SOE is, and how all they don't care about anything but squeezing more money out of the game and players.</P> <P>Keeping that in mind, SOE is now going to spend the time, money and effort to retrofit new character models into the game, as well as add additional programming to allow duel customization for both character models...<EM>all because nobody wanted the new models</EM>.</P> <P><BR>Personally, I think all the people who are so upset about pixels in a game should be moved to a new server where they can all roleplay and start sentences with words like "Ye old, and Hast thou".  For an extra bonus, SOE can hire Banegrivm and the rest of the 1st Fist of Light to run 'community events' on this server.</P>

[Naggyba]

Well, whatever, it doesn't matter. SOE is bringing them to a live server near you and that's all there is to it. Get over it and move on. People asked for the option and SOE is giving us the option. If you don't like them, don't choose the option to view them. It's really that simple.All the whinning in the world by a FEW people will not change the fact that most people either like them or don't care either way and it won't change the fact that SOE is placing them on live for people to enjoy and I will be enjoying them. On top of looking better, the performance is also better for me, with the SOGA models.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>jordaann wrote:It seems that a lot of people are telling those that are against the soga models tuff **it .  To those let me ask when you create a new toon would you be satisfied with the toon looking to you as you chose but when it comes to other people it would randomly display any race and look combination? Personally I like some of them and dislike others but telling people they are being vain and stupid to want their characters to appear like they chose during character creation is a bit short sited. Also you are taking features away from user by implementing model which have limited customizing ability(this was stated by MG that they were limited on purpose) even if you give the option to turn on and off. I am a bit perplexed why they took the desires of a small portion of the subscriber base and just assumed everyone else wanted it.  I did see some discussions about soga but never paid much attention assuming SOGA was only for the asian market. Btw asking people at fanfaire does not consitute a majority. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Your analogy is completely inaccurate. Depending on my graphics setting you already look different to me anyway!I don't run certain graphics affects, so for example, Erudies don't have glyphs for me.You have no right to decide how I prefer seeing my game. All I need to know is that you're a troll (character description, not calling you a troll)... Everything else is on my side.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Snublefot wrote:Well, define you and define other. As the plan goes "other" have the option of chosing what models they want shown on their client. "You" have the option of customizing the look for both models. What I ("you") would like to have is a "default" flag set on the two customized looks. Of course one of the models would be checked as "default" by default :smileyvery-happy: Now, if "other" have selected to show <STRONG>both</STRONG> model sets in game it would be my (eg "you") default model that would be shown. In other words what some ask for here. On the other hand "other" would have the ability to only show <STRONG>one of the model sets, </STRONG>in case it ruins performance or as you put it immersion. The diffrence between SOGA human male and Original human male aint that huge is it? Hardly breaks any immersion in my case, and again, its a choice you have to make.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warpax wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snublefot wrote:<BR>Would it be technically possible to include the option "show both"? Its already possible to all but kill performance trough other gfx-settings in the client, so I can't see how performance should be a factor as long as its not enabled by default. It should be a choice. Choice is good :p<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What are you talking about "show both"? How can a person see two different models of the SAME RACE/GENDER at the same time? That would totaly break immersion and continuity for EVERYONE. Bad Idea!<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <hr></blockquote>Wow, that makes no sence what-so-ever!Here's the deal. When they add new models, <b><i>YOU</i></b> (the person that ownes the char)will be able to customize 2 distinct views (1 for SOGA and one for Old School Model (OSM)). How either of these models looks is up to you.<b><i>I</i></b>(the person that ones the machine I'm running on and is looking at MY monitor, playing MY game) will be allowed to go in, and for each race choose which model I want to see whenever that particular race comes into MY view.<b><i>YOU</i></b> don't get to decide what <b><i>I</i></b> see when it comes to model selection. You can customize both of them, but you can't decide that I'm going to be forced to use an old model when I don't want to. That's falling on the wrong side of the line when it comes to who gets to decide what a person sees on their own screen. Sure YOU do have rigts to customize your toons, but I have a right to choose between which models I want to use... and in this case, MY right trumps YOURS.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Bethinna wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naggybait wrote:<BR>The MAJORITY of the playerbase wanted/wants SOGA models. That's why they are offering the OPTION to see one OR the other. SOE had nothing to do with trying to offer a cheap addition to make a change. It was the PLAYERS who asked for these. SOE just decided to give us the option after a LOT of players ASKED for them. Get your facts right.<BR><BR>There are only a FEW and VERY FEW people that don't like them. The rest of the userbase likes them or doesn't care one way or the other. Just FEW people whinning about them.<BR><BR>If you don't like them, don't turn them on. It's really that simple. No one cares if you are too vain that you don't want others seeing you differently than what you chose. Just get over yourself and move on. It's going live and that's it.<BR><BR>The MAJORITY of us like them and want them. <P>Message Edited by Naggybait on <SPAN class=date_text>10-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:23 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your comments are just as silly as people who say no one wants them or likes them.</P> <P>Unless you have a real scientific survey of people who actually play the game and can give me hard numbers EITHER way then no one should comment on how many people like or dislike the models.</P> <P>But since we are all just guessing on what the majority wants or doesn't want, the safest bet would be to say the majority doesn't care either way.</P> <hr></blockquote>But your point is also COMPLETELY MOOT!Becasue even if only 2 people wanted this option, this change would ONLY AFFECT THOSE 2 PEOPLE. Cuz they'd be the only 2 people that use the new models!Only around 40% of the people I asked in game have ever used /cutemode. Of that 40 the vast majority don't play day to day with /cutemode enabled! So I'd say the vast majority don't use is and probably don't care, but how does it affect them adversly to know that someone else might be viewing their model with an abnormally & cartoonishly large head!? It doesn't!

[jordaann]

<span><blockquote><hr>Schirf wrote: <blockquote> <hr> jordaann wrote:[W]hen you create a new toon would you be satisfied with the toon looking to you as you chose but when it comes to other people it would randomly display any race and look combination? <hr> </blockquote> <p>This isn't the situation we're in, but let's run with it with a small modification.  Let's say there is a "switch" that allows players to see random appearance for toons.  Not everyone will use the switch, and those that do will not be able to use appearance to identify characters they encounter.  THIER LOSS!  Would I use the switch?  No.  Would I complain that others can see a random toon instead of the toon I created?  No!  If they want to see a random character appearance then it's their stupidity.</p> <p>But we're not in this situation.  You'll be able to control how your character appears to others if you like.  You'll be able to adjust the look of your character using both models.  You want to limit people to seeing you one way; using the older model.  Are you prepared to see others using the same rules?  i.e. Will you enjoy the game as much if you're also forced to see their SOGA model?  I wouldn't.  But really, that's what you're asking for.  </p> <p>By asking for the ability to force everyone to see your original model you're really asking for a forced mixed-model environment, where everyone is forced to have both SOGA elves and the original elves, SOGA halflings and the original halfings, SOGA ogres and the original ogres... yuck!</p><p>Message Edited by Schirf on <span class="date_text">11-01-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:10 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>If this was the issue then all would be find but what is occuring is you have the non-SOGA model which have the current level of customization and the SOGA model which has a lower level of customization.  While some people may be happy with the results they get from customizing their SOGA characters, the fact that their ability to customize their characters have been reduced on the SOGA models.  If this was just an issue of vanity it would be a non issue however the difference is more than that.  The people that are against the new models picked their image of their characters when they went to creation and now they are stuck with an image that can not be customized to their liking given the reduced customization options. </span><div></div>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>If this was the issue then all would be find but what is occuring is you have the non-SOGA model which have the current level of customization and the SOGA model which has a lower level of customization. While some people may be happy with the results they get from customizing their SOGA characters, the fact that their ability to customize their characters have been reduced on the SOGA models. If this was just an issue of vanity it would be a non issue however the difference is more than that. The people that are against the new models picked their image of their characters when they went to creation and now they are stuck with an image that can not be customized to their liking given the reduced customization options.<hr></blockquote>But that's all in YOUR head. When your char looks in the mirror, or you see it in 3rd person view, it will look EXACTLY the way your old model looked last week. If you want to have influence over how people that want to use the SOGA models see you, them you can modify that view... otherwise, don't worry about them. You'll never have to see yourself that way!

[Bramwe]

Which models will have a greater performance hit on our machines?  That may decide it for me. <div></div>

[Sufu]

They are supposed to have about the same polygon count, so using one model won't have any performance differences over using the other.

[AbsentmindedMage]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bramwell wrote:Which models will have a greater performance hit on our machines?  That may decide it for me. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Some people are claiming to have better performance with the soga models then the current models.  But according to the developers, the soga model and the us model has the same polygon count.   It could be that not having to render all of those various accessories like glasses somehow increased their performance.  </span><div></div>

[Diern]

<P>They may have the same polygon count, but to me the US models just have more detail, I dont know i think its the textures or something but they defininately, give me a performance increase when I turn them all on.</P> <P>I think its something to do with the quality of the textures, and the far more restricted customisation you get with the new models.</P> <P>That said, I still hate them and they are not touching my system :smileywink:</P>

[Warpax]

the US models have always seemed off to me. On alot of the US models one eye is higher than the other, or the pupils are not centered. The skin tones are splotchy and the hair color never matches what you pick( pick red get orange, pick black get grey) and the Woads/Glyphs etc look terrible IMO on US models they look scribbled on and way to dependant on your texture settings. I love the SOGA models I just wish the "Monster" Races would get similar changes. <div></div>

[Dimgroth]

I cant wait for them to be patched to live, ive been playing test all day and I just want to get started on characters on live ill be keeping for a lifetime <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[MisguidedAngel]

The EQ2 community has always seemed to be made up of all these Final Fantasy/Phantasy Star Online kids anyway. The SOGA graphics complete this assimilation. That's why I'll be joining my oldschool bretheren in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.<p>Message Edited by MisguidedAngel on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:29 PM</span>

[retro_guy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AbsentmindedMage wrote:<BR>So, I guess all those people who are complaining about all the "hard work" they have put into their designing their character will never use the /face option that is coming to change their appearance.  I mean if you really are perfection changing that hairstyle/color or skintone would be ruining perfection.<BR><BR><BR>I could understand the complaints if you actually designed your character from the ground up.  But you didnt design your character from the ground up, you took the OPTIONs available to you in the creation screen to create a character that you felt would be one that you could identify with in game.  Well, there are not many options on the current or the soga creation screen.   So, the issues of being UNIQUE are not present.   Your character looks like most other characters.   So, I do laugh when I hear about how the soga models will ruin all of your "hard work" on your character.<BR><BR>In any event, the way your current character looks can remain that way.  The new model set data will be stored separately from the current one.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is very disappointing.</P> <P>I know it's a little off track, but WHY THE HELL are we getting options to change our faces and skin tones?</P> <P>When you roll your charcter that's what you are stuck with, there is no plastic surgery in Norrath and no way to chage your skin tone, so please leave this out of the game.</P> <P>Hair styles on the other ahne and piercings/tattoos are possible and should be the only things available after a character is already in the world.</P>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<span><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<p>This is very disappointing.</p> <p>I know it's a little off track, but WHY THE HELL are we getting options to change our faces and skin tones?</p> <p>When you roll your charcter that's what you are stuck with, there is no plastic surgery in Norrath and no way to chage your skin tone, so please leave this out of the game.</p> <p>Hair styles on the other ahne and piercings/tattoos are possible and should be the only things available after a character is already in the world.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>So, I guess we will have stuff to argue about once the soga models are released.  <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> If you do not want to use the option to change your face then dont use it.  Others want to be able to change their skin tone and reshape their face and change their face/hair.   This will enhance roleplay.  A person can show their character aging.  Perhaps, they want to roleplay that an evil warlock has cursed them with a rapid aging spell.  So, they change their face by using the age slider and making their hair grey and skin tone pale.  You do not need a plastic surgeon to change your skin tone(not that they can change that in real life).   You just need to either stay out in the sun to make it darker and stay inside to make it paler.   Maybe, your character broke its nose in a fight recently so you can make it hooked. </span><div></div>

[Sufu]

after SOGA models go live, I am pretty sure the next hottest things to cry nerf for, will be the in-game customization options like /face.<div></div>

[chadesh]

<P>how about making SOGA models a option for download. I personally don't even want them on my comp. Its a stretch, but there might be a time that you will see them. If someone takes a screen shot of you and posts it and they are using these SOGA models then you and everyone else will see you as a SOGA model. which for some can be irritating. specially if people have them on and it becomes a normal thing.</P> <P>Some people might take screenys for a event or something and capture the SOGA models and not relize it when they didnt intend on it. Personally I wish I could turn my name off so no one else can see my name unless they target me.</P> <P>People are right that no one has the right to say what anyone else sees on thier computer, but same goes for alot of things in EQ2, but we don't get a choice in several things that others force onto us. When a player thinks that his class is fine and others don't he's forced to take the so call fix. So basicly this type of thing is already happening. same goes for armor appearence. If I want to see just black and white armor and you or anyone else has pink armor. I can't turn that off and have to put up with the pink armor. </P> <P>But of course SOE controls the game and whats put into it and none of us have any say, well except the only way and everyone knows that way.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MisguidedAngel wrote:<BR> The EQ2 community has always seemed to be made up of all these Final Fantasy/Phantasy Star Online kids anyway. The SOGA graphics complete this assimilation. <FONT color=#ffff00>That's why I'll be joining my oldschool bretheren in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes</FONT>. <P>Message Edited by MisguidedAngel on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:29 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I really hope this game will fit your need. But if its anywhere near what people make it to be on this board ... my fear is this game going to have empty server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I personally like the look of Vanguard ... and also like the SOGA models. I think I'm hell more mature to be able to see the beauty of 2 culture. Saying that poeple that like FF and such are kid is really ignorant. I've played FF XI online and I can tell you that the comunity was a lot more mature than WoW in exemple.</DIV>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<span><blockquote><hr>chadesh wrote:<div></div> <p>how about making SOGA models a option for download. I personally don't even want them on my comp. Its a stretch, but there might be a time that you will see them. </p><hr></blockquote>This is really getting insane, so now people do not even want the soga models downloading to their computer and being on their harddrive.  Do you realize how childish that sounds?  What will happen if you accidentally see your character in the SOGA style?  Will you explode?  <span>:smileytongue:</span> <span></span><span><blockquote><hr>chadesh wrote:<div></div> <p>Some people might take screenys for a event or something and capture the SOGA models and not relize it when they didnt intend on it. Personally I wish I could turn my name off so no one else can see my name unless they target me.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>There is no difference between this and the person who is taking the screenshot having their settings to low or using /cutemode.  I am sure that when a person takes a screenshot they will know exactly what models they are using.   So, they are not going to go omg, what have i done I took a screenshot with soga models on.  As for your name not showing, that is also an option for the individual player to decide if he/she wants to see other players names all the time or just when targetting.  </span></span><div></div>

[Dimgroth]

wow, now ive seen it all, good luck with that (in reference to the paranoid guy who refuses to even want the files on his pc in fear he might see himself by accident one day in SOGA form LOL ) <div></div>

[dread du]

This has got to be my favorite thread in the longest time <3 The OP has helped me create a new term, SOGA-phobe. definition: somebody who has a paranoid viewpoint on how other people view them in the privacy of the other person's home on their computer.  I view SOGA-phobes as somewhat interesting and best viewed from afar.  I love the new elf models... they look all limp wristed and frail.  finally... I was sick of looking all tough and elvish at the same time.  and for the ogres, i'd much rather keep viewing the normal ogre models rather than ONI FEVER!!!  ... but if somebody else wants to view me in ONI-tastic mode then by all means whatever.  if only they coulda made my erudite even more withered away and just like grey skin hanging off a slim skeleton frame right now I think he is like 1% body fat, i'd like to get that down to around... .025% <div></div>

[firewolf]

Having an option "to force others to see the model that you want other to see"  borders on stupidity.  Consider the general players of the eq2 regarding SOGA 1. Some want to see the entire eq2 in US models 2. Some want to see the entire eq2 in SOGA models 3. Some want to see a mixture of races/gender in US model or SOGA model (which ever they fancy most) The current option can satisfy all the 3 groups of players very nicely. Adding an option to "force other to use a model" basically will make all these 3 groups of players very  unhappy customers. Having a choice of using a particular model is one thing. Forcing others to use your model? I consider this as very intrusive. If SOE ever provide an option "to force other to use a model", then SOE better provide another option "to overwrite the forced using of model". Then I'll be ok with having "force other to use a model", since I can use "to overwrite the forced using of model" to turn it off permanently. I've no interest what so ever in the look of the avatar that others created. As long as I can choose how each models can be displayed on my screen according to my taste, I'm ok. Forcing your choice on me? No thank you.   <div></div>

[Bloodtoo]

It's not a viable option technically to have the player decide which model all clients will view.  It will add huge overhead and the result is lag.  People have been able to alter how they see you since the beginning.  Players with all their graphics turned to lowest quality have been viewing you an undefined blob, I haven't heard people screaming to force others to upgrade their v-cards. Just pretend it's real-life, everyone sees themselves very differently than the rest of the world does.  Maybe it the people that haven't come to this realization are the ones having the most issue. <div></div>

[jordaann]

My only real issue with the SOGA models is the fact they can not be customized any near the level of the current models.  MG response to this is "that is what was intended".  So their new feature is designed to reduce my ability to customize my character. <div></div>

[Ralengrimdea]

I think from what I've evaluated is that a feature like this is something that needs more work and implimentation for it to be successful. I like the Soga models but I also completly understand with people that don't want their character portrayed as that. Even though I know it would be a hard thing to do, instead of going the upgraded-eq-1- models method, why could they not spend more time and make it so however the person customizes their character thats what you see.  What would be cool in my opinion is to have both models exist in the game and you are only represented by one model. The problem though I heard is these models are more hardware sensitive. Couldn't they add low res textures on these also. What I really think the problem is that this is a great feature that is not being executed well to the public. The problem your going to see on some people is that they like their old models and they probablly won't customize their soga models cause they <u>know</u> how they look and that soga is <u>not</u>  what they look like.  What would be nice to see is 26 extra models co existing perfectly with the 32 models already in the game. That right there is most cetainly diversification. I mean if I want to look cartoon anime like then I should have the dang right too. I don't want some of the people to pick certain races looking soga and as a result seeing a few people as they don't intend to look. Thats silly. What I would like to see is a old barbarian model and a soga barbarian standing next to each other in combat fighting some creep. Because of not having that option you get the goofy eq 1 echoes of my guy looking like the dang shady swashbuckler in the commonlands tunnel. All I really want him to look like was the new human model I setup. But I can't because some guy didn't like how the new human model looked...But really with eq 1 in that situation I was a bit understanding because the new models were clearly much more hardware intense. If they "could" make these soga models have low res texturing built in so they don't bog down machines just as the current models have and simply add them as seperate files that the person associates that model file with then wouldn't everyone be happy? I mean if you want to bash soga model characters then really isn't that just abuse then? <div></div>

[Krelfeari]

<P>lol i love how everyone worried about their characters appearance is speaking up about soga, they dont even realize that to the majority of players not using very high end software, unless I am standing directly on top of ur head ur dark elf is nothing but a blurd of purple to me from ten feet away. ur armor, ur fancy hair and whatever else I don't even see for more than 30 seconds after i meet u anyway and thats if i even care about them.</P> <P>gees, really people, save the superficial crap for real life...atleast there we GOTTA deal with it from jerks but must u REALLY bring it into video games? its just a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] graphic...sheesh.</P> <P>besides, like i said, unless u have a gig+ of ram 2 gig + cpu and a good graphics card then ur not seeing much at a distance but smudgey blurs lol....as for the OP saying the soga models are emo? lol..what do u think this post is? the very definition of it.</P>

[blynchehaun]

< The point i'm trying to make here is that there should be a way to disable others from seeing you as a SOGA model, > Would you like to set <b>my</b> other graphics settings too? How about we set everyone to Extreme Performance, just so they can see your char the way it <b>should</b> be seen. No, wait, that's <b>unreasonable</b>. You control your client, I'll control mine, k? <div></div>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jordaann wrote:<BR>My only real issue with the SOGA models is the fact they can not be customized any near the level of the current models.  MG response to this is "that is what was intended".  So their new feature is designed to reduce my ability to customize my character.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You should be happy you even have them. MG already said that these models were NOT, I repeat NOT made for the US market. They were intended SOLELY for the asian market. SOE is being NICE by "allowing" the OPTION to use the models that are not even intended for your use to begin with, because some people "liked them". They are NOT going to "change" the SOGA models to benefit YOU. They are NOT even FOR your benefit to begin with!! They are not INTENDED for your use, SUGGESTED for your use, OR EXPECTED for your use. They are MERELY an OPTION for those people who "really like them". If you don't like the fact they arent as customizable, DON'T USE THEM!!! All these crybabies make me sick!

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>blynchehaun wrote:< The point i'm trying to make here is that there should be a way to disable others from seeing you as a SOGA model, > Would you like to set <b>my</b> other graphics settings too? How about we set everyone to Extreme Performance, just so they can see your char the way it <b>should</b> be seen. No, wait, that's <b>unreasonable</b>. You control your client, I'll control mine, k? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Here is the solution. Everyone that wants to force others to see thier avatar as they want should simply offer to pay for other peoples accounts. Then they can set the stipulation on how the graphics settings HAVE to be set.

[jordaann]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>putergod wrote: <blockquote> <hr> jordaann wrote:My only real issue with the SOGA models is the fact they can not be customized any near the level of the current models.  MG response to this is "that is what was intended".  So their new feature is designed to reduce my ability to customize my character. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>You should be happy you even have them. MG already said that these models were NOT, I repeat NOT made for the US market. They were intended SOLELY for the asian market. SOE is being NICE by "allowing" the OPTION to use the models that are not even intended for your use to begin with, because some people "liked them". They are NOT going to "change" the SOGA models to benefit YOU. They are NOT even FOR your benefit to begin with!! They are not INTENDED for your use, SUGGESTED for your use, OR EXPECTED for your use. They are MERELY an OPTION for those people who "really like them". If you don't like the fact they arent as customizable, DON'T USE THEM!!! All these crybabies make me sick! <div></div><hr></blockquote>SOE new feature: View all character as your favorite race.  I want to see everyone as a halfling female!!!! Then you should be perfectly fine if you login and your Dark Elf (just guessing from your avatar) is viewed by everyone else as a halfling?  After all it is just an image and it means nothing? If that is correct you must be right After all it is just visual and anyone going against that opinion is just a crybaby. /bows to your superior intellect</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by jordaann on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>

[Naggyba]

Well, I ran through QH wiht all old models on and then ran through QH with all SOGA models on and it was MUCH smoother to me. I could tell a big difference when runing with all SOGA models on.

[Sufu]

I hope the new models are less laggy in raid situations too, but as it stands, the new models are a bit buggy due to armors not fitting right. Hopefully fixing them will give a small fps boost too. Not all of us are running dual 7800GTX's in SLI mode =(<div></div>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> firewolf wrote:<BR>*snipped*<BR><BR> Consider the general players of the eq2 regarding SOGA<BR><BR>1. Some want to see the entire eq2 in US models<BR><BR>2. Some want to see the entire eq2 in SOGA models<BR><BR>3. Some want to see a mixture of races/gender in US model or SOGA model (which ever they fancy most)<BR><BR>*snipped*<BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are forgetting ...</P> <P>4.  Some who want to see diversity in the game.  Those who are asking  .. nay .. begging for more options.   </P> <P> </P> <P>Might be a stretch but why not make client side choices ... </P> <P>1.  Original US Models (only)</P> <P>2.  Soga Models (only)</P> <P>3.  Mixture based on Preferences (your choice) (requires slightly more ram)</P> <P>4.  Mixture based Character Choice (Ram Muncher!  Very Memory Intensive)</P> <P>and each Character you make/have would have an option to click </P> <P>I want this character's over-ride to be:  US Model / Soga Model </P> <P> </P> <P>So .. say I make a new character on one of my other accounts .. </P> <P>I have my US Model Prime Female Wood Elf and I make the new Female Wood Elf but I choose to make her Soga Prime .. I log both in and viola !  On both screens (since I have chose to use the more memory intensive option)  I see both a US Wood Elf and a Soga Wood Elf standing next to each other .. I also see "your" Barbarian Male Soga and "joe's" US Barbarian Male wacking on some beetle in Antonica ..   But!  "Joe" only sees US characters .. and "you" see yourself as a Soga but prefer the Woodelves as US model  .. </P> <P>I would have preferred they never authorized these models .. not because I don't like them but because it's SoL all over again.   But they are here (or will be) and I really would like them to be presented better than the SoL crap was ..</P> <P> Online Gaming in a MMORPG is all about options .. everyone is screaming for more options so they as a lvl 60 don't look the same as the lvl 50 or a lvl 50 caster doesn't look like my lvl 9 Bard in VLA ..  WELL .. here is the way to introduce more options (at least client side) for those who are willing to give up some ram.  </P> <P>I have no problem really with you viewing me as only a Soga or US model *shrug* but I really want to see "you" as you choose and yet I still want to see me as I choose.   Is that really such a crime?</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Dimgroth]

I dont want to see your craptastic us models, sorry, but no thanks, thats in the past for me, thank god.  <div></div>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jordaann wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jordaann wrote:<BR>My only real issue with the SOGA models is the fact they can not be customized any near the level of the current models.  MG response to this is "that is what was intended".  So their new feature is designed to reduce my ability to customize my character.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You should be happy you even have them. MG already said that these models were NOT, I repeat NOT made for the US market. They were intended SOLELY for the asian market. SOE is being NICE by "allowing" the OPTION to use the models that are not even intended for your use to begin with, because some people "liked them". They are NOT going to "change" the SOGA models to benefit YOU. They are NOT even FOR your benefit to begin with!! They are not INTENDED for your use, SUGGESTED for your use, OR EXPECTED for your use. They are MERELY an OPTION for those people who "really like them". If you don't like the fact they arent as customizable, DON'T USE THEM!!! All these crybabies make me sick! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>SOE new feature: View all character as your favorite race.  I want to see everyone as a halfling female!!!!<BR><BR>Then you should be perfectly fine if you login and your Dark Elf (just guessing from your avatar) is viewed by everyone else as a halfling?  After all it is just an image and it means nothing? If that is correct you must be right <BR>After all it is just visual and anyone going against that opinion is just a crybaby.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Wouldn't bother me none.. as I can see me the way I want. I don't give a rat's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] how you see me, as I am not the one that has to look at your monitor.</FONT></P> <P><BR>/bows to your superior intellect</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>As you should...<BR></FONT></P></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by jordaann on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:29 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>jordaann wrote:My only real issue with the SOGA models is the fact they can not be customized any near the level of the current models.  MG response to this is "that is what was intended".  So their new feature is designed to reduce my ability to customize my character. <div></div><hr></blockquote>NO! You can see whatever YOU want to see. Your char will not look ANY different to you!

[beylanu]

Well, for me, I think SOGA halfling females are ugly.  I don't want others seeing me like that.  However....If SOE gave me the option to force my oldstyle halfling look on others, in all fairness, they should allow the SOGA fans to force their SOGA look on me as well.  Personally I wouldn't want that.  I want to play this game as if SOGA never occurred.  Which means not allowing others to dictate how I see them(from a SOGA/non-SOGA standpoint).  So with that in mind, I think it's reasonable that I cannot force others to see me in my beautiful non-SOGA form.Oh well...compromise is such a hard thing to accept.  I'm ok with SOE's stance on this.  <div></div>

[jordaann]

Ok I just do not know, either people just do not like the perspective I am presenting or maybe I am not using the right words to explain it.  When you create a character you choose the avatar that will represent you in the world of EQ2.  Disregarding the stat differences between races you are left with the visual image representing your character to the world of Norrath.  It does not seem to me that it is a totaly outlandish idea to believe that the image of your avatar affects how you are recieved by other characters you come accross in norrath.  It is very true that each and every player has the ability to control the quality of the images in the game they pay to play.  However I would still say that significant changes to that avatar (or the way others see it) can affect my game play.  Personally I like most of the new models  but I do object to the reduction of customization features available on the new models.  This reduction will permit another user to percieve my character completely different than I intended.  For example that ring my ratonga (yes i know there is no ratonga soga model) wears in his lip may have been torn from an important enemy, which now is not there in the soga models. I am not saying I am against implementation of the soga models, I am saying I would much prefer to see at least the same level of customization on soga models that we currently enjoy on the existing models. I am quite out of breath and energy attempting to present a point on deaf ears, I am sure SOE will use their best judgement while implementing this to the live servers Best of luck to everyone I hope you get as much out of EQ2 as I do. Even if you don't have the same view about this specific issue as I do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Nainitsuj]

<P>WOOT!!  Can't wait.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Auto Assault is released in a few months.</P> <P>Burn in hell SOGA.</P>

[chadesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AbsentmindedMage wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> chadesh wrote:<BR> <P>how about making SOGA models a option for download. I personally don't even want them on my comp. Its a stretch, but there might be a time that you will see them. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is really getting insane, so now people do not even want the soga models downloading to their computer and being on their harddrive.  Do you realize how childish that sounds?  What will happen if you accidentally see your character in the SOGA style?  Will you explode?  <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> chadesh wrote:<BR> <P>Some people might take screenys for a event or something and capture the SOGA models and not relize it when they didnt intend on it. Personally I wish I could turn my name off so no one else can see my name unless they target me.</P><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There is no difference between this and the person who is taking the screenshot having their settings to low or using /cutemode.  I am sure that when a person takes a screenshot they will know exactly what models they are using.   So, they are not going to go omg, what have i done I took a screenshot with soga models on.  As for your name not showing, that is also an option for the individual player to decide if he/she wants to see other players names all the time or just when targetting.  <BR></SPAN><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It has nothing to do with being parnoid, but it has to do with what I need to accually run the game. If I don't use it I don't want it. Like the sound and music files they aren't needed to run the game. So I don't need them on my computer, because I don't have sound even on. I turn the music and sound off since release and have no intention to turn it back on.</P> <P>If it's not needed for my injoyment of the game then keep it off my computer. its just that simple.</P>

[Cranber]

<DIV>What really bothers me is that I can't choose this pointy hat for my gnome with SOGA models. In fact, I love this hat and love to make jokes about it with my friends. I even consider it as a part of me, something like an icon, or a symbol for me. (ok to make fun of me. I'm used to it. :p but you can't change the fact that I love it.)</DIV> <DIV>I also love my sunglasses. They give me looks of sophistication and also a bit of arrogance. I just love my gnome to be looked that way. Unfortunately, however I try to make a SOGA gnome even remotely similar to my original, it just seems too dull for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, it's true. SOGA models are seriously lack of variation and accessaries and I don't like them at all.  I've been playing alot of Asian fantasy games and compared to them, SOGA models are completely third-rated and I don't understand why they didn't hire better designers for them. Personally I don't want people to see me that way, but on the other hand I don't want to see other people that way either.</DIV> <DIV>So fair enough for me. No forced-look options. </DIV>

[Sordia]

<div></div><div></div>All I keep hearing in my head is the skit in Roseanne where John Goodman is pretending he is DJ, rocking back and forth saying over and over again: "They say she's the same, but she isn't the same" <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sordia on <span class="date_text">11-02-2005</span> <span class="time_text">04:06 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Sordia on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:07 PM</span>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>jordaann wrote:Ok I just do not know, either people just do not like the perspective I am presenting or maybe I am not using the right words to explain it.  When you create a character you choose the avatar that will represent you in the world of EQ2.  Disregarding the stat differences between races you are left with the visual image representing your character to the world of Norrath.  It does not seem to me that it is a totaly outlandish idea to believe that the image of your avatar affects how you are recieved by other characters you come accross in norrath.  It is very true that each and every player has the ability to control the quality of the images in the game they pay to play.  However I would still say that significant changes to that avatar (or the way others see it) can affect my game play.  Personally I like most of the new models  but I do object to the reduction of customization features available on the new models.  This reduction will permit another user to percieve my character completely different than I intended.  For example that ring my ratonga (yes i know there is no ratonga soga model) wears in his lip may have been torn from an important enemy, which now is not there in the soga models. I am not saying I am against implementation of the soga models, I am saying I would much prefer to see at least the same level of customization on soga models that we currently enjoy on the existing models. I am quite out of breath and energy attempting to present a point on deaf ears, I am sure SOE will use their best judgement while implementing this to the live servers Best of luck to everyone I hope you get as much out of EQ2 as I do. Even if you don't have the same view about this specific issue as I do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote>You can say whatever you want about your char and your chars history etc... But what it comes down to, is your right to present a look doesn't equal someone elses right to see what they want to see. If someone came up with a mod that let EQ toons look like X-Men chars, there would be some people that would want to use X-Men models! You control a great degree of what your char's appearance is, but don't think that means you have absolute control. In this case you will not.

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jordaann wrote:<BR>Ok I just do not know, either people just do not like the perspective I am presenting or maybe I am not using the right words to explain it.  When you create a character you choose the avatar that will represent you in the world of EQ2.  Disregarding the stat differences between races you are left with the visual image representing your character to the world of Norrath.  It does not seem to me that it is a totaly outlandish idea to believe that the image of your avatar affects how you are recieved by other characters you come accross in norrath.  It is very true that each and every player has the ability to control the quality of the images in the game they pay to play.  However I would still say that significant changes to that avatar (or the way others see it) can affect my game play.  Personally I like most of the new models  but I do object to the reduction of customization features available on the new models.  This reduction will permit another user to percieve my character completely different than I intended.  For example that ring my ratonga (yes i know there is no ratonga soga model) wears in his lip may have been torn from an important enemy, which now is not there in the soga models.<BR><BR>I am not saying I am against implementation of the soga models, I am saying I would much prefer to see at least the same level of customization on soga models that we currently enjoy on the existing models.<BR><BR>I am quite out of breath and energy attempting to present a point on deaf ears, I am sure SOE will use their best judgement while implementing this to the live servers<BR>Best of luck to everyone I hope you get as much out of EQ2 as I do. Even if you don't have the same view about this specific issue as I do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You have lost some of you grip on reality it seems. It's a game. Your acting like it's real.

[dread du]

<span><blockquote><hr>beylanu wrote:Well, for me, I think SOGA halfling females are ugly.  I don't want others seeing me like that.  However....If SOE gave me the option to force my oldstyle halfling look on others, in all fairness, they should allow the SOGA fans to force their SOGA look on me as well.  Personally I wouldn't want that.  I want to play this game as if SOGA never occurred.  Which means not allowing others to dictate how I see them(from a SOGA/non-SOGA standpoint).  So with that in mind, I think it's reasonable that I cannot force others to see me in my beautiful non-SOGA form.Oh well...compromise is such a hard thing to accept.  I'm ok with SOE's stance on this.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>well said, it would be nice if all the people who support the OP would just read this comment, and understand what it means.</span><div></div>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<DIV>In real life, when someone who wears sunglasses looks at you, they don't see the same things that another person without will. Sure, the physicalities may be there, but the perception is radically different. Are you going to be upset that someone wearing sunglasses can't make out the subtle shade of orange you picked out today? Will you demand they take them off so that they can see your outfit as you intended it to be?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heavens I hope not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The SOGA models are physically different, yes, but you have no right to say how I want to perceive a game running on my computer. You can customize it as best you can, which I think is quite the ability regardless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A RL comment comes to mind.. You hands have the freedom to do almost anything they'd like... But they lose that freedom the second they think about connecting someone's nose with a fist. You have the right to customize your model, but have no right to tell me how I want to look at it. It's -my- computer. </DIV>

[Twizzel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathin Merrithay wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A RL comment comes to mind.. You hands have the freedom to do almost anything they'd like... But they lose that freedom the second they think about connecting someone's nose with a fist. You have the right to customize your model, but have no right to tell me how I want to look at it. It's -my- computer. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So, I should just let you choose my avatar for the game I play?  I think not.  It would be akin to you telling me how to cut my hair and what clothes to wear in RL...to use your analogy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, it doesn't bother me one way or the other and doubt it will change my perceptions on the current problems with this game...like how about fixing myriad other things before worrying about models for a niche market.  But what I fail to understand is why you folks don't understand that those that don't like the anime look are entitled to their opinions as much as you are.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will wait and see what this does to my characters appearance and just add that to the pros/cons list of whether I choose to keep paying SoE to play this game.  If it turns my characters into cartoons ala WoW, I'll be done (after all, if I wanted to play WoW, I would be playing WoW).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since this game markets itself as an mmoRPG, and one of the things about RPG means "I" get to choose how I roleplay my character, which includes how I look to others.  If I no longer have that option, it is just another nail in the coffin...then again, I might really like the SOGA models for my characters.  However, that is not the point...</DIV>

[Dimgroth]

go ahead and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and refuse to even make a decent soga version of yourself for your own worries, ill still think your soga model version of you looks better by far on most, unless you have complete lack of caring for how your character looks and dont take time to make both u.s version and soga version of self look good to best of your judgement.  (even if you dont like it, you can get SOMETHING good from SOGA so people who like such can view it and admire ) <div></div>

[jordaann]

As far as I am concerned I do not want to tell anyone what model they should use, after all it is THEIR pc.  All I want is the ability to control the image that is my character, how that character is percieved is up to the setting on each person computer and their mind.  I will not say how you should percieve my character but don't prevent me from presenting my character in the manner I want. <div></div>

[Elyssia]

<P>Quote Jordaann......</P> <P>As far as I am concerned I do not want to tell anyone what model they should use, after all it is THEIR pc.  All I want is the ability to control the image that is my character, how that character is percieved is up to the setting on each person computer and their mind.  I will not say how you should percieve my character but don't prevent me from presenting my character in the manner I want.<BR>************************************************** *****</P> <P>Agreed 100% on this matter.</P> <P>I did NOT make my character to look like some second-rate WoW refugee with rubber ears and do not want people to see her this way either!!!</P>

[daeneriez]

<P align=left><IMG alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com" src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y33/mzais/hosting%20for%20friends/EverQuest/SOGA/HighElfFemale.jpg"><BR><BR><BR>before (on the right):  this is the character that i have played since last Christmas; my main, a 57th level templar (stripping down only for comparison's sake, don't get any ideas :smileywink: ).  to me, she is quite lovely with her up-turned nose, her blatently dyed hair, and her rosey cheeks.  this is what i wanted others to see me as, while i adventured in Norrath.  i like the character, what can i say?<BR><BR>after (on the left):  this is the character that took me nearly 45 minutes to create.  while she has her good points, such as those fabulas ears and the big almond eyes (im such a sucker), the hair-color was unable to be matched to my current character.  not for lack of it appearing on the color pallet, mind you, it was there.  it just looked different both in-game and on the character selection screen.  not only that, but the hairstyle chosen was the only hairstyle that wasn't down, wild, or in her face; suddenly the ladies of Castleview don't know how to style their hair?  i was un-able to upturn her nose, which i think is part of the whole snobby high elven attitude, or make her any darker skinned than she currently is.  but all of that aside, the thing i have the problem with is her limbs.  look at the legs (the right one shows it more than the left, because the clothing is draped in the way).  this is perhaps what bothers me most of all about the model, she looks like she is starving, anerexic, and sickly.  <BR><BR>i am personally going to stick to the old models.  i do wish, however, that rather than creating these SOGA models they would have combined them with current models.  i would love to add a curve to my main character's ears, and have those lovely eyes.  best of both worlds, that way.</P> <DIV>(edited to say:  this is a feedback forum, folks.  this is the feedback that others are giving about something that is currently live on the test server.  complaining because they are giving their feedback is a little strange.  you can offer your own opinion, but "u suck cuz u don't agree with me"?  perhaps if you didn't read the feedback forums, you wouldn't be so annoyed by other people's opinions about in-game things.  your opinion is yours, my opinion is mine.  and some people do give constructive solutions.)</DIV><p>Message Edited by daeneriez on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 PM</span>

[crunchybob]

<P>I'll post it again since there seems to be eight thousand posts on this subject.</P> <P>I know people in eq1 that still have pre-Luclin models on for improved performance, I know people who run this game at max performance instead of max graphics - it all changes how you look to others, get over it already.</P> <P>I think about half of the SOGA models are improvements and I think half of them look like used toilet paper. I'll enable the ones I like and not enable it on the others.</P> <P>It's a game it's a game It's A Game It's A Game IT'S A GAME IT'S A GAME IT'S A GAME IT'S A GAME</P> <P>So let's whine and complain ad nauseum because I don't like something that other people do. And if you do get it changed (not likely) and they remove the SOGA models, what about all of the people that wanted them that also pay for thier subscriptions? Or don't they matter because YOU got what YOU wanted?</P> <P>God, the arrogance. Sony will do what Sony will do and there really is only one way to influence that, by not paying for it.</P>

[daeneriez]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> If someone came up with a mod that let EQ toons look like X-Men chars, there would be some people that would want to use X-Men models! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>no!  don't give them ideas like that!  we will just have this situation, all over again.  while it is off-topic, i am curious, would they go with the X-men movie models (the ones that featured Hugh Jackman, Halley Barry, etc), or would they go with old comic book style characters in the yellow spandex?  </DIV>

[Sir Ka]

Ok i think I found why the female legs are so thin. Look at a female elf whos wearing light armor, they allready have those skinny legs! the model creators of SOGA must have looked at this and translated this to the female characters without armor on.

[Naggyba]

I like the SOGA model in the above pics, better than I do the old model. Looks more like an Elf should.

[Terreciel]

<P>Yes, it's a game. But it's a game in which your character is an alter-ego or a vision of a role. If you really don't care how you present that character to others, you might as well play a game where everyone looks like a block.</P> <P>One of the big marketing points of EQ2 was its character customization. I was frankly disappointed to discover how little the characters really were customizable, even compared to the upgraded characters in EQ1, and certainly compared to customization options in, for example, City of Heros. I think the SOGA models are a way to pretend that we now have more customization options without actually providing it. You may be able to make your char, or other people's chars, look different, but still within fairly narrow parameters. </P> <P>I agree with the people who said that adding greater customization options to existing characters, so that they could span the range from the present models to the SOGA models, would be the best of both worlds. Then we would really get more customization ability, AND our characters would be seen as we have chosen to make them, not as someone else chooses to display them. </P>

[Krelfeari]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=161358" target=_blank><SPAN>blynchehaun</SPAN></A>  and the post a couple down from urs...to both of u guys suggesting that someone else is picking how ur character looks is true...and that will always be true...tough crap. as long as there is not just 1 pc type in the whole world nobody is gonna have the same look.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ur erudites glyphs? i don't see them, so bite me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ur shiny armor? sorry, looks dull to me on extreme performance, so suck it up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly guys, nobody is changing how you SEE YOURSELF. Only how THEY SEE YOU.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is practically an analogy of real life...people have misconceptions based on physical appearance all the time! Every time u walk in a store people will see you and make their own assumptions about your character. Unless u sit down and talk with every single person that ever gets a glance at you and explain who you are to them they will only have their on preconceptions. Just as in the game other players will see you as they see you, not as you see urself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not the best comparison but what do u expect me to come up with to combat such a childish and immature argument!? GET OVER IT! ITS JUST AN IMAGE! If you MUST insist they see you as u want then sit down and tell them ur exact graphics settings and just like getting to know u in real life then they can see the real you, otherwise just suck it up.</DIV>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>daeneriez wrote:<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> If someone came up with a mod that let EQ toons look like X-Men chars, there would be some people that would want to use X-Men models! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>no!  don't give them ideas like that!  we will just have this situation, all over again.  while it is off-topic, i am curious, would they go with the X-men movie models (the ones that featured Hugh Jackman, Halley Barry, etc), or would they go with old comic book style characters in the yellow spandex?  </DIV><hr></blockquote>OMG Movie all the way! No one wants to look like Wolverine in Underoos!

[lillin]

<P><FONT size=2>From what I have read through this thread it seems people are worried how thier eq2 model characters will look too someone that has the SOGA models enabled.  I just wonder would it be possible not to turn on both model types but to maybe have your original eq2 model plus make a soga variation of your same character.  Say if someone has regular eq2 models on it will show your chosen eq2 model but if they have SOGA models turned on if will show your saved SOGA version.  This way SOGA or not you will still show your choices of how you would look. </FONT></P>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lillin wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=2>From what I have read through this thread it seems people are worried how thier eq2 model characters will look too someone that has the SOGA models enabled.  I just wonder would it be possible not to turn on both model types but to maybe have your original eq2 model plus make a soga variation of your same character.  Say if someone has regular eq2 models on it will show your chosen eq2 model but if they have SOGA models turned on if will show your saved SOGA version.  This way SOGA or not you will still show your choices of how you would look. </FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is how they are doing it. Many are complaining because the SOGA models aren't as customizable, and therefore they can't make their character exactly how they want. However, when they originally made their character, they still couldn't make it EXACTLY how they wanted... they had to use the options given them. So, this is really just a cop-out. The other slew of complainers are complaining because they just don't like the SOGA models at all. Well, some of them look better, and some worse, IMO. Again, though, if these were the models originally introduced, they would be defending them.</P> <P>In essence, none of the above really matters, because it is my computer, and I will view what I want, when I want, and I don't care what anyone else thinks, period.</P>

[lillin]

<FONT size=2>Thanx for that reply =) I'm ok with it now =)</FONT>

[burnman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lillin wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=2>From what I have read through this thread it seems people are worried how thier eq2 model characters will look too someone that has the SOGA models enabled.  I just wonder would it be possible not to turn on both model types but to maybe have your original eq2 model plus make a soga variation of your same character.  Say if someone has regular eq2 models on it will show your chosen eq2 model but if they have SOGA models turned on if will show your saved SOGA version.  This way SOGA or not you will still show your choices of how you would look. </FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is how they are doing it. Many are complaining because the SOGA models aren't as customizable, and therefore they can't make their character exactly how they want. However, when they originally made their character, they still couldn't make it EXACTLY how they wanted... they had to use the options given them. So, this is really just a cop-out. The other slew of complainers are complaining because they just don't like the SOGA models at all. Well, some of them look better, and some worse, IMO. Again, though, if these were the models originally introduced, they would be defending them.</P> <P>In essence, none of the above really matters, because it is my computer, and I will view what I want, when I want, and I don't care what anyone else thinks, period.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Actually... I pretty much got what I wanted with the original toolset for character creation.  I was able to design my character the way I wanted, and was happy with the results.  After trying for some time with the SOGA system, all I could come up with was a distant asian cousin of my current character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE advertised character creation to be extremely customizable, and it was one of their signature selling points before launch.  Now, with the introduction of SOGA, others will not see the character I play when they enable SOGA.  They will see a distance relation from somewhere in the far east.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't give a crap what you want or do not want to see... I want my character seen as he was intended... not as a plastic-looking starving person that barely comes close to resembling my current character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I sill say the female models are offensively skinny.  I mean... geesh... they look like they should be on a Christian Children's Fund commercial... take a look:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://eq2.searchslave.com/skinnydarkelf.jpg"></DIV>

[Naggyba]

Offensively skinny? ROFLMAO that's the funniest and silliest statement ever made.Excuse me while I pick myself up off the floorGet over your vain and insecure self. They are going live and the majority like them. We don't care if you are vain and insecure and don't want other people to see you the way THEY want to see you.If I want to see you on MY system in /cutemode all the time, I have that right. If I want to see you in SOGA model on MY computer, I have that right.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:52 PM</span>

[burnman]

<P>**removed personal attack**</P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:15 PM</span>

[Naeramar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Naggybait wrote:Offensively skinny? ROFLMAO that's the funniest and silliest statement ever made.Excuse me while I pick myself up off the floorGet over your vain and insecure self. They are going live and the majority like them. We don't care if you are vain and insecure and don't want other people to see you the way THEY want to see you.If I want to see you on MY system in /cutemode all the time, I have that right. If I want to see you in SOGA model on MY computer, I have that right.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class="date_text">11-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:52 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Again with your supposed "majority"? I ask again, where is your PROOF that the majority prefers the SOGA models? Don't claim to speak for "the majority" unless you can back it up with real, actual proof - that doesn't mean "I like 'em, so the rest of the world does too." And I have to agree...those female models are WAY too spindly. I'm sure some folks like that whole pre-pubescent anorexic look...but I'll pass, thanks. </span><div></div>

[Zyphius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> burnman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> putergod wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lillin wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=2>From what I have read through this thread it seems people are worried how thier eq2 model characters will look too someone that has the SOGA models enabled.  I just wonder would it be possible not to turn on both model types but to maybe have your original eq2 model plus make a soga variation of your same character.  Say if someone has regular eq2 models on it will show your chosen eq2 model but if they have SOGA models turned on if will show your saved SOGA version.  This way SOGA or not you will still show your choices of how you would look. </FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is how they are doing it. Many are complaining because the SOGA models aren't as customizable, and therefore they can't make their character exactly how they want. However, when they originally made their character, they still couldn't make it EXACTLY how they wanted... they had to use the options given them. So, this is really just a cop-out. The other slew of complainers are complaining because they just don't like the SOGA models at all. Well, some of them look better, and some worse, IMO. Again, though, if these were the models originally introduced, they would be defending them.</P> <P>In essence, none of the above really matters, because it is my computer, and I will view what I want, when I want, and I don't care what anyone else thinks, period.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Actually... I pretty much got what I wanted with the original toolset for character creation.  I was able to design my character the way I wanted, and was happy with the results.  After trying for some time with the SOGA system, all I could come up with was a distant asian cousin of my current character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE advertised character creation to be extremely customizable, and it was one of their signature selling points before launch.  Now, with the introduction of SOGA, others will not see the character I play when they enable SOGA.  They will see a distance relation from somewhere in the far east.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't give a crap what you want or do not want to see... I want my character seen as he was intended... not as a plastic-looking starving person that barely comes close to resembling my current character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I sill say the female models are offensively skinny.  I mean... geesh... they look like they should be on a Christian Children's Fund commercial... take a look:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Too bad, so sad... You have no control over me, or my computer... I will use whichever model I prefer, and, currently, I have not decided on any. What race are you? That will weigh my choice on that particular race towards SOGA on my computer specifically because of this post. I just hope I like the SOGA ones for your race better...<BR>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>burnman wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Naggybait wrote:Offensively skinny? ROFLMAO that's the funniest and silliest statement ever made.Excuse me while I pick myself up off the floorGet over your vain and insecure self. They are going live and the majority like them. We don't care if you are vain and insecure and don't want other people to see you the way THEY want to see you.If I want to see you on MY system in /cutemode all the time, I have that right. If I want to see you in SOGA model on MY computer, I have that right. <p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class="date_text">11-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:52 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <div>I suppose the female models look ok... if you are into 13 year olds</div><hr></blockquote>Here you go again labelling the people who like the models.  You realize that the other post you made with the same insults was deleted because it was so inappropriate.  They do not look like 13 year old girls.  They do look younger than our current models.  If I had to guess the age of the current models when they were set to young on the age slider, I would say in the 40s for the humans and most of the elves though half elfs looks to be in 20s-30s.   These new models do look younger like people in their 20s which is actually the time frame that i would expect adventurers to be out adventuring trying to prove their worth.  When they get into their 40s, they should be near their peak not just starting out.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by AbsentmindedMage on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:36 PM</span>

[burnman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AbsentmindedMage wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> burnman wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naggybait wrote:<BR>Offensively skinny? ROFLMAO that's the funniest and silliest statement ever made.<BR><BR>Excuse me while I pick myself up off the floor<BR><BR>Get over your vain and insecure self. They are going live and the majority like them. We don't care if you are vain and insecure and don't want other people to see you the way THEY want to see you.<BR><BR>If I want to see you on MY system in /cutemode all the time, I have that right. If I want to see you in SOGA model on MY computer, I have that right. <P>Message Edited by Naggybait on <SPAN class=date_text>11-03-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:52 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I suppose the female models look ok... if you are into 13 year olds</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Here you go again calling labelling the people who like the models.  You realize that the other post you made with the same insults was deleted because it was so inappropriate.  They do not look like 13 year old girls.  They do look younger than our current models.  If I had to guess the age of the current models when they were set to young on the age slider, I would say in the 40s for the humans and most of the elves though half elfs looks to be in 20s-30s.   These new models do look younger like people in their 20s which is actually the time frame that i would expect adventurers to be out adventuring trying to prove their worth.  When they get into their 40s, they should be near their peak not just starting out.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>LOL - I haven't gone back through all of my threads lately... I tend to live in the *now* ... but if you are referring to the thread where I was called an idiot and replied... yes.  Those two were deleted... the offending post and my offensive reply.  If anything else was deleted, I have yet to be informed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides... to start off with a *young* character only makes sense in the long run if characters age... which they do not.  And who is to say that someone in their 30's or 40's wouldn't start out adventuring.  People have mid-life career changes all the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, you may not agree with what I have to say... and that's fine.  But do not, for one second, believe that your opinions invalidate mine.  We are both entitled to them.  Have you once seen me state that you should give up posting about yours?  Or that you are a minority viewpoint?  No.  You haven't.  Express yourself... it's your right to do so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just have tough enough skin to handle someone else's conflicting opinions like an adult.</DIV>

[MyTFlyGuy]

<span><blockquote><hr>TheyLive wrote:<div></div> <div>Okay, as we all know SOGA is coming, and there is a somewhat unaddressed problem coming with it: other players using the new graphic settings could see you as something entirely different than you intended, hence this picture: </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/Bloodl0ss/soga.jpg"></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>On the left is the half-elf model that I use slight variations of for all of my main characters (turn your brightness up if you can't see it well enough). And on the right is the SOGA version of almost the same character, just with the skin & hair color changed to emphasize how effeminate they new models are (and the tear added in MS Paint to show how Emo he is). I do not want my character to look anything like that SOGA model to <em>anybody;</em> just being able to turn it off for myself is not enough. I messed around with the creation on test for a while and there is no way, I repeat, no way to even come close to replicating the look of my characters on the live servers.</div> <div> </div> <div>Before anyone says it, I am aware that seeing the new models on <em>my</em> client is optional, but that does not solve this problem. The point i'm trying to make here is that there should be a way to disable others from seeing you as a SOGA model, and I know i'm not the only one who feels that way.  If you can't see the harm in having no control of your appearance to others, then look at it from a roleplaying perspective: roleplayers create a character with a specific vision & purpose in mind, but when something like this comes along it hinders the process. Roleplayers would often have to ask people whether they have Setting X on (or get them to turn a certain setting on/off beforehand), otherwise you'd have no way of knowing what others see you as. In other cases, people who couldn't be bothered to make a new customized appearance for SOGA, could unknowingly look like horrible emo/anime rejects like the one I made above, inducing laughter & ridicule from anyone who sees them; it's just not right.</div> <div> </div> <div>FInally, I am aware of the dev responses stating that being able to hide/show SOGA to others wouldn't be as simple as a /showhood or /hide_illusion, and the speculation that it could cause frame-rate problems, but come on now.. this game is supposed to be using one of the most advanced graphic engines to date (hence the very high settings that were designed for computers a few years in the future). I find it hard to believe that rendering a few extra models would somehow break the game. Okay, maybe if you got 22 different old models and 22 different SOGA models together in a small area it could slow the game down, but that would likely never happen, and the higher performance graphic settings would eliminate those issues since they don't even load the skin textures when that many characters are around. </div> <div> </div> <div>Anyway, this is the testing feedback board and that is my feedback. If nothing else, keep in mind that a recent poll on a different site revealed that character customization is the most important thing for the majority of MMO players, and that whole ideal gets thrown out the window when others can completely change your percieved appearance with the click of a button.</div><hr></blockquote> If you think the current models are not Femanine you need to look again. Most of the Elf ( especially high elf and half elfe are rather Girly looking ) </span><div></div>

[Dimgroth]

ok, im going to link to the newest effort of mine to show what I mean by you can make decent soga models, even great.. im doing three samples of each race, three for each gender, they can be found on last page of here:http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=grph&message.id=18118#M18118ill be doing all the races for the most part (might not even bother with erudites, too simular to current, and ogres are a bit weak artistically) as you will see, even if you dont like soga, they arnt bad looking at all if you do it right.

[Naggyba]

burnmanBecause you are upset over the models and that they are going in and you disagree with people gives you no right to make libel insinuations.Complaints that people don't like them because they don't suit their taste, are like people complaining because they don't like a TV show, when all they have to do is change the channel.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:26 PM</span>

[Za]

Your question doesn't matter!The MAJORITY of the people that look at my computer screen will determine if I use a particulat SOGA model or not. As far all the stupid arguments and analogies... No I don't get to take the glasses off your rat... Sure you get to detail and outline a particular model all you want. If SOE give you the options to tailor make your SOGA model, then that is what I'll see. But the fact is, that there will be 2 char models to choose from and <i><u><b>I</b></u></i>, the owner of my $2000 computer will be the one that determines which model I want to spend my game time looking at!

[Despak]

<span><blockquote><hr>burnman wrote:<div></div><div> </div> <div>I don't give a crap what you want or do not want to see... I want my character seen as he was intended... not as a plastic-looking starving person that barely comes close to resembling my current character.</div><div><img src="http://eq2.searchslave.com/skinnydarkelf.jpg"></div><hr></blockquote>Pay my subscription for me and I'll put my settings to what you want.  Till then I'll set what I want as I am paying to view the game my way. As for all the images posted of females being skinny;  run around exping in your undies alot do you?</span><div></div>

[Twizzel]

Well, that sure didn't seem to take long...first the WoW graphics and now it seems the WoW maturity has arrived.  Does anyone know how to voice their opinion without having to insult someone else? (that was rhetorical, obviously a few of you do).  I mean really...it seems like the folks who support the new models have to fill their posts with name calling and snide comments.  Just looking through this thread it's filled with "bite me's",  "I don't give a crap what you think", blah, blah, blah....if this is the kind of community the new models are going to bring forth, you can have it....  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  as I scrolled back through and looked at the OP new model...for some reason the Avatar name Marilyn Manson comes to mind :smileywink:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Twizzel on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:29 PM</span>

[Cynto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Twizzel wrote:<BR> Well, that sure didn't seem to take long...first the WoW graphics and now it seems the WoW maturity has arrived.  Does anyone know how to voice their opinion without having to insult someone else? (that was rhetorical, obviously a few of you do).  I mean really...it seems like the folks who support the new models have to fill their posts with name calling and snide comments.  Just looking through this thread it's filled with "bite me's",  "I don't give a crap what you think", blah, blah, blah....if this is the kind of community the new models are going to bring forth, you can have it....  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  as I scrolled back through and looked at the OP new model...for some reason the Avatar name Marilyn Manson comes to mind :smileywink:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Twizzel on <SPAN class=date_text>11-03-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:29 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Twizzel, I don't really know what threads you've been reading, or if you've read the 5 billion seperate threads etc, about this same topic. But, while I do admit many of the supporters of SOGA models can get a bit riled up, I have to say that frequently the people that are AGAINST SOGA tend to be the most often to commit "name calling and snide comments" first. Hell, just look at Burnman's many posts, for the most part he keeps kinda civil, but lately hes been getting a good chunk of his posts edited by the mods for personal attacks on the people that don't agree with him. And there are others that do the same. I am not discounting that there are supporters of SOGA that also attack back, or first or whatever. But it seems to me that its at least an equal number on each side, or, frequently, people who don't agree with the origional poster's opinion that SOGA sucks, having to defend themselves from personal slams about their opinions.</P> <P>And just for the record, I don't care one way or the other what you do with your computer, so long as you don't force me to see a PC model I don't care for, SOGA or Origional model, as I dislike many of the models from both thus far. If you like em, good for you, if you don't, good for you, dosn't bother me one way or the other.</P> <P>Oh yeah, and btw, they don't look like WoW models, they look more like Lineage 2 models. WoW models look like blocky humanoids colored in with crayons. These at least have detail, even if you don't like them, you can't tell me they aren't higher resolution than WoW by a long shot.</P>

[tracheaspider]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Century></FONT> <HR> Cranberry wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT face=Century>... I've been playing alot of Asian fantasy games and compared to them, SOGA models are completely third-rated and I don't understand why they didn't hire better designers for them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Century></FONT> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face=Century><SPAN>Yay, someone else who knows how cheap the SOGA models look compared to other Asian models (and not compared to the </SPAN><SPAN>US</SPAN><SPAN> models)!<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sometimes I feel like half the people enthralled with SOGA are the type of anime fans who obsessively support anything having to do with anime even when it looks like garbage and who reject anything styled after more classical US designs just because it's not anime, even when it looks decent.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Yeah, many of you legitimately hate the </SPAN><SPAN>US</SPAN><SPAN> models and find the SOGA ones honestly appealing, but I've know too many with the mindset I described to think none of them inhabit these boards.<SPAN>  </SPAN>To me, the SOGA models are poorly designed alternatives to the fairly well designed original models and, in terms of Asian models, SOE could have done so much better.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face=Century></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Century></FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Century>Personally I don't want people to see me that way, but on the other hand I don't want to see other people that way either.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Century>So fair enough for me. No forced-look options.<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face=Century>Fair enough for me, too.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I'm not happy with the inevitable outcome (my original designs will be lost to many, appreciated or not), but I'll gladly take it over the alternatives.<SPAN>  </SPAN>But it's too simple to say, as some have said, that caring about your avatar's appearance towards others is superficial.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sure, it's just a game, but part of the game is to design these characters and show them off.<SPAN>  </SPAN>That's something incredibly fun to me.<SPAN>  </SPAN>And if appearances didn't matter on some level to many folk, why are folks so (justifiably) rabid to get new armor designs and tints?  Or why are roughly 73% of dwarf priests on my server clerics and 59% of wood elf priests druids?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Since any race can choose any priest subclass, that's a decision that has to be influenced partly by image.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sure, some chose based on the play style presented by the subclass, but if image (heavy armor wearing dwarf vs. leather wearing wood elf) had nothing to do with it, the percentages should be about equal regardless of race.<SPAN>  </SPAN>It's also frustrating to me to see people denigrating those who claim personal appearances are important, then, in the next breath, stressing that the overall appearance of the game is so important that their right to choose which model set they use on their computer is some sort of inalienable right.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Century>I would like to point out that my desire to be seen as I intended makes me understand that the same will go for many players who prefer SOGA.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I refuse to play with SOGA models, but I will doubtless turn them on from time to time just to see what people come up with.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I already turn up graphics settings when I have a spare moment in order to see details on US models.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Why?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Because seeing others and being seen is fun!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

[Jai1]

<DIV>Yeah, I totally misunderstood the reason for implementing the new models. I thought they were supposed to have better resolution or be better for something. I personally think EQ2 has some issues with their total lack of creativity when designing gear.  So what? Now they are supporting two entirely different character models which requires duplicate effort to maintain the same equipment base? How much sense does that make? I mean really.  Address and resolve the issues and not add to them.  I tell you what. I have had a lot of high hopes for this game for a while due to the power of its engine. I still like looking at the bump-map textures they put in.  I could care less about what my [Removed for Content] face and body looks like because I cover it with gear. I do care for what my gear is looking like and with the new SOGA models, its not better, just different but I imagine ultimately all the same. I couldn't stand L2 so dont dig the Anime and will probably be more likely to check out Vanguard because that could be a really cool game if Microsoft tries to outdo Sony with original Verant designers. Are the devs here awake? Listening? Why is it that only after a year of release my server has no population. Somebody's not doing something right. Course maybe its things like the reward for the Beetle Herding quests that turn people off.</DIV>

[Naggyba]

They have ALWAYS supported two entirely different character models. SOGA models have been in the game since release, just in the asian markets. So, they have always had to duplicate their efforts. Nothing has changed, except the US market now has a chance to display those models.Do you think they never did any work ot make sure the SOGA models had the same equipment and that it worked with those models? That nwo that they are in the US version, that all of a sudden they start doing work for them?

[Dimgroth]

some people like to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. <div></div>

[daeneriez]

<DIV> <P></P> <HR> This is practically an analogy of real life...people have misconceptions based on physical appearance all the time! Every time u walk in a store people will see you and make their own assumptions about your character. Unless u sit down and talk with every single person that ever gets a glance at you and explain who you are to them they will only have their on preconceptions. Just as in the game other players will see you as they see you, not as you see urself.<BR> <BR> <HR> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>              the comparison between how others look at you in game and how others look at you in real life is actually very similar. personally, after going through my grooming rituals and slipping into a nice outfit i expect people to view me as someone who takes care of themselves, and cares about their appearence.  another possible comparison is if, after spending all that time to look a certain way and project myself, someone flipped a switch so that they viewed me as someone who didn't take care of themselves; they would see my nice outfit as a pair of dirty sweatpants and a grungy t-shirt with holes in it, no shoes, my makeup would look like dirt-smears, and my hair would appear matted. trust me, people in real life don't view me this way, or i am quite certain i would be received in a very different manner.  i think that this is<EM> why</EM> people do not appreciate the option of others making them appear SOGA. it is, to them, like flipping a switch to snatch away all of the time and effort one puts into their character's appearence. they do not want to be treated differently than they currently are, and they are concerned that with their character looking a different way, they will be. </FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't give a crap what you want or do not want to see... I want my character seen as he was intended... not as a plastic-looking starving person that barely comes close to resembling my current character.</P> <P>And I sill say the female models are offensively skinny. I mean... geesh... they look like they should be on a Christian Children's Fund commercial... take a look:<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>offensively skinny: i agree.  </FONT></P></DIV>

[Zyphius]

<P>^^ ::sniff sniff:: ^^</P> <P> </P> <P>You wont even know what you look like to someone else, as you'll have no clue what models each person is using... So get over yourself. Oh, and since beauty is in the eye of the beholder; there are people who look at you and think "ewww" in real life... accept it...</P>

[Despak]

<span><blockquote><hr>daeneriez wrote: <div> <hr> This is practically an analogy of real life...people have misconceptions based on physical appearance all the time! Every time u walk in a store people will see you and make their own assumptions about your character. Unless u sit down and talk with every single person that ever gets a glance at you and explain who you are to them they will only have their on preconceptions. Just as in the game other players will see you as they see you, not as you see urself. <hr> <p><font face="Arial" size="2">              the comparison between how others look at you in game and how others look at you in real life is actually very similar. personally, after going through my grooming rituals and slipping into a nice outfit i expect people to view me as someone who takes care of themselves, and cares about their appearence.  another possible comparison is if, after spending all that time to look a certain way and project myself, someone flipped a switch so that they viewed me as someone who didn't take care of themselves; they would see my nice outfit as a pair of dirty sweatpants and a grungy t-shirt with holes in it, no shoes, my makeup would look like dirt-smears, and my hair would appear matted. trust me, people in real life don't view me this way, or i am quite certain i would be received in a very different manner.  i think that this is<em> why</em> people do not appreciate the option of others making them appear SOGA. it is, to them, like flipping a switch to snatch away all of the time and effort one puts into their character's appearence. they do not want to be treated differently than they currently are, and they are concerned that with their character looking a different way, they will be. </font></p> <p></p> <hr></div></blockquote>It's actually not a good analogy.  Real life and gaming are two distinctly different arena's.  You don't pay people to look at you a certain way in game so in no way should you dictate what charatcter they should use to view you. As for the grooming bit; perhaps they see you all dressed up and think "tart". <div> </div> </span><span></span><div></div>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>Naggybait wrote:They have ALWAYS supported two entirely different character models. SOGA models have been in the game since release, just in the asian markets. So, they have always had to duplicate their efforts. Nothing has changed, except the US market now has a chance to display those models.Do you think they never did any work ot make sure the SOGA models had the same equipment and that it worked with those models? That nwo that they are in the US version, that all of a sudden they start doing work for them?<hr></blockquote> They didn't release EQ2 into those markets at the same time they released it in the US/Europe.  In fact, I'm not enitrely possitive the SOGA only model game has been out of beta at all yet. SOGA (SOE partnered with someone else) was contracted -after- EQ2 was released to "localise" the graphics for introduction to a new market (China, Korea, and Taiwan, I think).  If anyone from those markets started playing EQ2 before, it was with the current game, not the SOGA-ified one.</span><div></div>

[Dimgroth]

I look at soga and see beauty, im entitled to that, alot of people dont take the time to make good soga models with the choices available and as a result complain about them looking horrible, because most the people posting soga and screaming about it are making very ugly soga creations. I would post a u.s model as ugly as I can make it but that would be sinking to a low level and would be nausiating as well. <div></div>

[Naggyba]

<blockquote><hr>Rijacki wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Naggybait wrote:They have ALWAYS supported two entirely different character models. SOGA models have been in the game since release, just in the asian markets. So, they have always had to duplicate their efforts. Nothing has changed, except the US market now has a chance to display those models.Do you think they never did any work ot make sure the SOGA models had the same equipment and that it worked with those models? That nwo that they are in the US version, that all of a sudden they start doing work for them?<hr></blockquote> They didn't release EQ2 into those markets at the same time they released it in the US/Europe.  In fact, I'm not enitrely possitive the SOGA only model game has been out of beta at all yet. SOGA (SOE partnered with someone else) was contracted -after- EQ2 was released to "localise" the graphics for introduction to a new market (China, Korea, and Taiwan, I think).  If anyone from those markets started playing EQ2 before, it was with the current game, not the SOGA-ified one.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>That changes nothing. They STILL have been doing things for 2 seperate models all along. What they will be doing now is NO different than what they have already been doing.

[Schirf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naggybait wrote:<BR>That changes nothing. They STILL have been doing things for 2 seperate models all along. What they will be doing now is NO different than what they have already been doing.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No, not "all along" - SOE hasn't been doing ANYTHING with the SOGA models... they're SOGA models, not SOE models.  Changes/fixes are not being made by programmers/arts at SOE, they're being relayed by SOE to SOGA, where changes/fixes are being made.  While you may want to think of this as double effort, in the corporate world this isn't considered anything like double effort.  The price for changes are hitting two seperate companies, not one.</DIV>

[Naggyba]

Whatever, you want to argue semantics here and it's pointless. Armor, etc. that has been made for the US models has ALSO had to be made to fit the SOGA models and their animations. It's had to be done for BOTH models all along and so, nothing has changed.

[Schirf]

<P>You're implying that the animations are different for the SOGA models?  I know that the body-frames are different, but they may be different in a way that allows the current engine to use the same graphic mesh for both versions of the toons, using x,y,z stretch features built into the engine.  This would mean that no new armor was made for the SOGA models, just minor adjustments to the armor fit - very minor.  And there wouldn't be real animation changes like there are with unique body-shapes, such as Frogloks.</P> <P>But, like I said, it's two companies.  Call it semantics if you like, but in the corporate world it's very important.</P>

[Dimgroth]

what I find important is that finally we have some options, its not much but its nice, now if only theyd do armor and clothing additions and options as well.  (btw, as a supporter of soga models, I hate how they say its, "the greatest gift" thats a cop out for not improving current ones, which I hope theyll do in addition to soga, because I think the current ones need TONS of improvement ) <div></div>

[Krelfeari]

<P><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #180200" color=#ffcc00><STRONG>Edit: Posts like this jeopardize one's future ability to post on these boards</STRONG></FONT><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #180200" color=#ffcc00><STRONG>.</STRONG></FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Moorgard on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:36 AM</span>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dimgroth wrote:<BR>what I find important is that <U><STRONG>finally we have some options</STRONG></U>, its not much but its nice, now if only theyd do armor and clothing additions and options as well.  (btw, as a supporter of soga models, I hate how they say its, "the greatest gift" thats a cop out for not improving current ones, which I hope theyll do in addition to soga, because I think the current ones need TONS of improvement )<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What options?   Seriously, I still love the US models and I have liked quite a few of the pictures of SOGA models, but what options?   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Neither SoE or Soga are giving us any more options than before .. in the case of going SOGA only .. a person is limiting themselves even more than they were before them .. at the best .. if someone goes 1/2 & 1/2 they have gained somewhere like 7 new models to look at.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I checked out your Screenies and you specifically said you were trying to make the best looking models possible but do you realise that they were repeats of the exact same model?   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reference (<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=grph&message.id=18118#M18118" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=grph&message.id=18118#M18118</A>)  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The dwarf males .. exact same face / different beard/hair color (1 grey / 1 black & 1 blonde .. the difference?  the blonde had a set of tats), the 2 female dwarves you posted looked more like a Soga short human & a short MALE US Half elf without the earrings, respectively. No facial hair on either, and I hear that there are no options for it .. that's sad & wrong, right there! .. Not to mention they are a bit more thiner than most dwarves, in any litature, are portrayed.  .... found the 3rd Female dwarf ... umm truthfully I'm not sure what she looks like .. are you sure that was a dwarf? ...  Eitherway .. while seperately each individual picture looks "nice", even cute in some cases .. but with the exception  of your choice of the Male Dwarf Face .. they don't look like what dwarves "should" look like ... grumpy, stout, short, hairy (even the women) and not young!  They are an "old" race, I believe they were in litature even before elves.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your pictures of the halfings I'll pretty much skip, since I guess I am too used to EQ1's version of halfings.  Though I do like the hair / chops / general "tip" to the face on male #2.   I will say one thing though ... how can you eat 9 lunches and still be that thin?!?   I need to borrow a few recipes from them .... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Humans:  Again you choose the exact same face for each .. even going so far as to give each of the males the same blackish eyebrows  which kinda gives #3 a sort of "Surfer Dude!" look or do you even get an option to change the eyebrows?!?.. My hubby & I will probably be turning on the human male Soga if nothing else .. depending on how well we can "redo" his human pally to soga .. I like the male #1's hairstyle .. reminds me of his before the chemo :smileyhappy:     Though what is with the female hair in the face!  Makes my eyes water in sympathy.    I read that most of the Human/High Elves Females have this same issue ... /sigh .. I like your last female's hairstyle .. hopefully there are more options, though.      </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*sigh* .. In fact I wish someone (hint soe!) would make a pictorial of all the choices of hairstyles / (in) game colors and "standard" face options for each race .. that movie didn't show much really and  we will only get one (1!!) shot at designing our Soga view.  When we started our characters we could easily just camp and delete .. can't do that with established characters!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and I will agree with those saying all the females in general are WAY too thin!  Seriously!  Body wise (if you ignore the breast size) they look like they haven't even gotten their menses, yet. ... So, yeah body wise they are like 12-13 .. breast wise .. they are like 18 - 22  .. faces ... depends but "oldest" I've seen looked to be about 22 -24 tops.   The dwarves men are the only ones I have seen thus far with "age".   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dimgroth]

I did change the faces, their features are all different, however slightly, I simply refused to use the extreme options of the sliders, I used facial features, skin tone and hair style and color, different heights, to show difference, another person might like  puffy faced long hooked nose characters but not mine, I think my Chemosh is highly different than my warrior me, surfer dude was just a third option, not much thought.  I like the hair in eyes, even if its not likely one would want that in real life, but I like Mina's style.  I love kender type halflings, and as such im thrilled.  If you wish to be overly critical and look for flaws, fine, I like them overall personally. <div></div>

[AbsentmindedMage]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dimgroth wrote:I did change the faces, their features are all different, however slightly, I simply refused to use the extreme options of the sliders, I used facial features, skin tone and hair style and color, different heights, to show difference, another person might like  puffy faced long hooked nose characters but not mine, I think my Chemosh is highly different than my warrior me, surfer dude was just a third option, not much thought.  I like the hair in eyes, even if its not likely one would want that in real life, but I like Mina's style.  I love kender type halflings, and as such im thrilled.  If you wish to be overly critical and look for flaws, fine, I like them overall personally. <div></div><hr></blockquote>The thing is people are complaining about the similarity in the faces of the soga models but failing to recognize the same issue is present with the current models.  Yes, there are tiny variations but by far if you go up to someone of the same race and gender and look at their face, it will be the same face you have. The differences really reside not in the facial structure but in the skin tone and hair style/color.  It has been that way before soga and it appears to be that way after soga.  So, is it a valid critique of the soga models: yes.  However, it is an issue that has always existed.</span><div></div>

[daeneriez]

<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR><BR> <HR> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>             As for the grooming bit; perhaps they see you all dressed up and think "tart". </FONT><BR></P> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><BR><BR>anything to base it on?  my guess is, that's a no.  feel free to express your opinions about the game, or even about my opinions, but keep your personal attacks to yourself.  <BR><BR>thanks in advance. :smileyhappy:</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[daeneriez]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR><BR> <HR> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>             It's actually not a good analogy.  Real life and gaming are two distinctly different arena's.  You don't pay people to look at you a certain way in game so in no way should you dictate what charatcter they should use to view you.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </DIV> <DIV></SPAN><BR>no, but myself and others pay SOE to play a character that we have created.  that we have put time into, that we like the appearence of.  this is my character, i want it to be viewed the way i created it.  even if you have your options on low, you still don't see my high elf as <STRONG>anerexic</STRONG>.  i do not want to promote a pre-teen, starving image.  it's not my thing.  i prefer a healthy appearence as opposed to supporting eating-disorders. <BR><BR>edited to say:  i don't care if you see my character exactly the way i designed it down to the last detail.  her hair can be blonde, she could even be bald, or even male for that matter.  what i have a problem with is that i feel these SOGA models promote an un-healthy appearence.      </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by daeneriez on <span class=date_text>11-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:18 PM</span>

[Krelfeari]

i can't reply to this thread anymore cause as u can see by my last post....u guys are rufflin meh feathers....:smileymad:

[Naggyba]

Fact: SOGA models have been out for quite awhile, if not since release.Fact: Armor, weapons, etc. that has had to be fitted to the US models, has ALSO had to be fitted to the SOGA models.It doesn't matter one bit who had to do what.Fact: Nothing has changed with the US version being able to display the SOGA models. New armor, weapons, etc. that are fitted to the US models would STILL have to be fitted to the SOGA models.Twice the work has had to be done in the past and it STILL would have to be done in the future, whether the US version has SOGA models or not.Did that break it down simple enough for you, or should I break it down even simpler so you can understand?

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>AbsentmindedMage wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Dimgroth wrote:I did change the faces, their features are all different, however slightly, I simply refused to use the extreme options of the sliders, I used facial features, skin tone and hair style and color, different heights, to show difference, another person might like  puffy faced long hooked nose characters but not mine, I think my Chemosh is highly different than my warrior me, surfer dude was just a third option, not much thought.  I like the hair in eyes, even if its not likely one would want that in real life, but I like Mina's style.  I love kender type halflings, and as such im thrilled.  If you wish to be overly critical and look for flaws, fine, I like them overall personally. <div></div><hr></blockquote>The thing is people are complaining about the similarity in the faces of the soga models but failing to recognize the same issue is present with the current models.  Yes, there are tiny variations but by far if you go up to someone of the same race and gender and look at their face, it will be the same face you have. The differences really reside not in the facial structure but in the skin tone and hair style/color.  It has been that way before soga and it appears to be that way after soga.  So, is it a valid critique of the soga models: yes.  However, it is an issue that has always existed.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote> This is exactly why I think the SOGA stuff should have been integrated into the current models as additional features and appearances to choose to customise our characters for -all- to see.  Everyone is focusing on the SOGA faces anyway, so that is obviously all that matters in those models to most.  As for the torsos... we should have options there (just like in SWG).</span><div></div>

[Dimgroth]

no, not really, thats cheap, soga is a different style, I like that style, but for U.S models they should make more options, new ones for U.S version (theyre already doing scale patterns, why not a few more hair styles) I dont like a majority of the U.S models features so I dont want a few soga options intergrated into U.S, I want Soga and I want (for all you U.S model lovers) SOE to add options to U.S Versions <div></div>

[Jow]

<P>The funny part is the fact that the OP is compaining about how others see him when I can spend 5 min messing with my graphic files in my Eq dir and make him look like anything I want on my screen.</P>

[Suite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheyLive wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I am aware we will be able to customize both appearances, that does not remedy the issue here. The point here is that to many players, there will be NO acceptable SOGA version of their character. In the case of half-elf, all of the hairstyles were changed, all piercings were removed, the body type itself was changed. The closest comparison I could make to my normal character still looks like a completely different race in SOGA, and I don't want to be seen as that to anybody. The one I created for the picture was an extreme example of how bad it can look, but the 'best' SOGA character I could come up with after 45 minutes was still not acceptable, hence the desire for an option to disable SOGA graphics on your character to others.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999 size=2>I couldn't agree with you more. I have spent the last few hours working with the SOGA models on test and came away completely disillusioned. Nearly every model, from human to elf, looks pre-pubescent from the neck up. The females have bubble butts and their arms are akimbo in an ape-like manner. Only the half elven guys, from this female's opinion, look halfway acceptable compared to their non-SOGA counterparts.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999 size=2>What is the worst is the fact that the racial differences we had in hair styles--such as dark elves and high elves having fancier hair styles--are now gone. We get the same variations of the girlish pigtail, the pageboy, and the moppet look. My beautiful high elven templar with her fashionable ponytail, who formerly looked like Barbie, now looks like Barbie's little sister Skipper.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999 size=2>If I had wanted to play an anime style game I would have gone to another MMORPG. Yes, I can turn the SOGA models off; but others who have them on are still going to see what--Skipper? </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999 size=2>That's the problem. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999 size=2>Oh, one more thing: wood elven females have lost the flowers in their hair, as have the halfling and barbarian females. The half elves lost all their piercings and instead have a lame excuse for a "scar." I'd post more screenshots, but after looking through the other thread on SOGA problems, I see that several have done a great job showing what's wrong with arms, necks, behinds, etc. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999 size=2>'nuf said.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999 size=2>Suite</FONT></P> <P><BR></P>

[Suite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Malkantar wrote:<BR> <DIV>Point people are trying to make is ... and this is for either side soga or not: People want to be able to have an option to show their character to others in either soga or original character model view.  It would not be very hard for SoE to put in an option that allows the player to choose if their character was shown only in Soga or not in soga.  Give all players the choice to do this..and also to allow them to see everything else in soga/not in soga (unless certain players have checked the option to allow themselves to be viewed one way or another.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That will solve everyone's complaints... for the most part at least.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Very well put. Thanks for getting straight to the point and communicating it clearly.</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Suite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MisguidedAngel wrote:<BR> The EQ2 community has always seemed to be made up of all these Final Fantasy/Phantasy Star Online kids anyway. The SOGA graphics complete this assimilation. That's why I'll be joining my oldschool bretheren in Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Exactly. With several new MMORPGs coming out in the next year, those of us who don't like the direction EQ2 is taking can take our opinions elsewhere.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Suite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jordaann wrote:<BR>Ok I just do not know, either people just do not like the perspective I am presenting or maybe I am not using the right words to explain it.  When you create a character you choose the avatar that will represent you in the world of EQ2.  Disregarding the stat differences between races you are left with the visual image representing your character to the world of Norrath.  It does not seem to me that it is a totaly outlandish idea to believe that the image of your avatar affects how you are recieved by other characters you come accross in norrath.  It is very true that each and every player has the ability to control the quality of the images in the game they pay to play.  However I would still say that significant changes to that avatar (or the way others see it) can affect my game play.  Personally I like most of the new models  but I do object to the reduction of customization features available on the new models.  This reduction will permit another user to percieve my character completely different than I intended.  For example that ring my ratonga (yes i know there is no ratonga soga model) wears in his lip may have been torn from an important enemy, which now is not there in the soga models.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Good job. I get your point clearly. We have six EQ2 accounts due to a large household of gamers. Not one person in our household likes the SOGA models. In fact, our anime' fans said they are a sorry excluse for anime' type looks, and if they wanted decent looking Asian models they'd be playing another game.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>If a year after release, Ford told me that I was to bring my Expedition into the dealership and they were going to give me the gift of changing my Expedition's appearance, and they kept it for several hours and when it was returned to me, it looked like a minivan, I would be upset. I bought an Expedition; had I wanted the minivan, I'd have bought a minivan.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>But Ford says, "Oh, you can just turn on an illusion for yourself, so that you still see the Expedition; but people who like minivans are going to see you driving around a minivan." Do you think that would make me happy or mollify me? No, because the car I chose reflects more than just a chassis on four wheels.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Imagine that it's worse; that my personal appearance is changed so that other people see me as someone else. I look in the mirror and see Suite, but they look at me and see Gaige. I am not happy about that; I don't want to look like Gaige (sorry, hun, but Suite is just soooo much sexier!). </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Many people identify with their characters in archetypal ways that can't be dismissed. Yes, as we've seen with EQ1, giving different model options can and does work; but when you change the high elf so that she looks like a 15-year-old girl instead of a mature, high elven woman; or when the halfling looks like a 10-year-old boy and not a jollly, middle-aged halfling, then it's a disservice to people who actually wanted to play a MMORPG, not another kids' game.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Suite<BR></FONT></P>

[Dimgroth]

Uh huh.. Well thats all fine and well but some people love using SOGA.  And the halflings look like kender or lotr hobbits in new form for the most part and its far better than obese mini humans.  Theyre active small stutured people fighting and adventuring, not sitting in a shire day in and day out toking and eating pie, they still do that but theyre active in this mmorpg.  <div></div>

[Naggyba]

Can't beleive people whining over SOGA models and threatening to leave. Better off without the people threatening to leave a game over them adding new OPTIONAL models. So stupid and silly. If you are threatening to leave over this, then you had plans on leaving anyway, or just saying it to try and get your way (which doesn't work). People that threaten to leave never do.If you want to leave over something like this, then can I have your stuff when you leave? Have fun in Vanguard. Have fun threatening to leave over there when they put in something you don't like or because the noses don't look right on the models or something. If you want to leave a game over something as silly as this, then maybe you should re-evaluate why you play online games and your priorities.I could care less how other people see me. I play to have fun, not be vain and insecure. Someone seeing me in a different way in no way takes away from the fun.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dimgroth wrote:Uh huh.. Well thats all fine and well but some people love using SOGA.  And the halflings look like kender or lotr hobbits in new form for the most part and its far better than obese mini humans.  Theyre active small stutured people fighting and adventuring, not sitting in a shire day in and day out toking and eating pie, they still do that but theyre active in this mmorpg.  <div></div><hr></blockquote> I'm not sure you read the same Tolkein -books- I did.  Hobbits were anything but active, adventuring, and going out to seek a fight.  They were very much into sitting in the shire day in and day out smoking their pipes, eating their meals, and the like.  Those hobbits who did differently were the oddballs and were actually frowned on by the community of hobbits. Tolkien's books have HOBBITS (also called halflings since they were half the height of a man). The D&D world of Greyhawk (I think) has Kender. EQ2 has halflings.  By lore, they have hairy feet (like Tolkien's hobbits, btw, but not present with the SOGA models...) and are pudgy. Obese is something different than pudgy unless you think models as thin as Kate Moss or Twiggy are of "normal" weight. I really don't care if you like SOGA models or not, but trying to say they are the "correct" way to depict character types and then citing things not only not EQ2 related but citing them incorrectly has really annoyed the sod out of me. Those who use SOGA will see my character incorrectly to -my- vision of the character.  No more, no less.  You won't see my gnome with her glasses even though she never takes them off (because they're important to her and they -do- filter her view of the world) or her hair done in fiery spikes with her crystal blue eyes.  You won't see the piercings and "skunky" hair of my half-elf nor his -piercings-.  If you remark about how he got his scars, he'd look at you funny and wonder what your problem is.  If you ask him why he has piercings, he might tell you, though.  But yes, it it -your- right to see -my- character incorrectly. Conversely, I won't know that your elf has twig arms and legs and a pageboy hair style or that your dark elf male has bubble lips.  If those are intregal to your characterisation, I won't have any way to know.  And... it is my right to see your character incorrectly because I don't find the SOGA models appealing. We both lose.</span><div></div>

[V4n]

For me, the beautiful character graphics of the original EQ2 models were a big appeal to this game. Reduced to a cartoon character, there are now other games to consider. Certainly there are some who really love SOGA, and others that hate it.  With each major change (e.g. revamping classes) SOE loses another x% of its player base.  How many times can it do this before there are not enough left to sustain a viable game?

[Schirf]

<P>Little D&D history...</P> <P>Gary Gygax originally used the term "Hobbit", and was sued by Christopher Tolkien.  While the words "Hob" and "Bit" are both part of the English language, Gary couldn't find any record of the word "Hobbit" prior to J.R.R.Tolkien's work.  The suit resulted in AD&D and the change to the word "Halfling", which Gary could backup with public domain texts.  The descriptions where not changed until Kender came along, and they were an attempt to move away from Gary's ideas.  D&D has Halflings and not Hobbits to satisfy the court system.  D&D has Kender to satisfy the anti-Gygax head of TSR post Gary's removal from the company.   Without the lawsuits you'd never think of them as anything else.</P> <P>Why does this matter at all?  It doesn't.  But remember that the original EQ Devs based their setting on a home-grown D&D setting that used much of the feel of the Gygax era game.</P>

[Dimgroth]

<div></div>I perfer those oddball hobbits, thats exactly who I was refering to, and my general preference is Dragonlance's Kender,  theyre "correct" in someones interpetation, as well as mine, so deal with it, its opinion and preference. as far as obese, Id say for their stature, yes, theyre obese, they are blobs with human ears and extremely round faces, and bodies that have no shape but round. ) <div></div><p>Message Edited by Dimgroth on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:06 PM</span>

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dimgroth wrote:<BR>Uh huh.. <BR><BR>Well thats all fine and well but some people love using SOGA.  And the halflings look like kender or lotr hobbits in new form for the most part and its far better than obese mini humans.  Theyre active small stutured people fighting and adventuring, not sitting in a shire day in and day out toking and eating pie, they still do that but theyre active in this mmorpg.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not sure you read the same Tolkein -books- I did.  Hobbits were anything but active, adventuring, and going out to seek a fight.  They were very much into sitting in the shire day in and day out smoking their pipes, eating their meals, and the like.  Those hobbits who did differently were the oddballs and were actually frowned on by the community of hobbits.<BR><BR>Tolkien's books have HOBBITS (also called halflings since they were half the height of a man).<BR>The D&D world of Greyhawk (I think) has Kender.<BR><BR>EQ2 has halflings.  By lore, they have hairy feet (like Tolkien's hobbits, btw, but not present with the SOGA models...) and are pudgy.<BR><BR>Obese is something different than pudgy unless you think models as thin as Kate Moss or Twiggy are of "normal" weight.<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>He was speaking about halfling adventurer actualy, and in the EQ setting. And yes, they are almost obese. <BR>

[inserthe]

I think soe should just make an option so you can check a tick box of which model you want the whole playerbase to see, traditional eq2 or the new soga, no matter what they are using themselves.That way everyone show's themselves as they want to be seen by others and everyone should be happy, or at least happier than they are now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Dimgroth]

I wouldnt be, I dont want to see the old us humans, the old us dark elves, the old us halflings, the old us high elves, the old us wood elves (although some females ill keep on for old models, but I can pick and choose which instead of being forced to see something ugly) <div></div>

[Schirf]

I wouldn't be happy with that either.  I never want to see the SOGA models for many of the races.

[Naggyba]

I don't agree with the idea of forcing people to view models they don't want to see. If I don't want to see the old models, I don't want to see it on MY computer.

[Eepop]

<span><blockquote><hr>inserthere wrote:I think soe should just make an option so you can check a tick box of which model you want the whole playerbase to see, traditional eq2 or the new soga, no matter what they are using themselves.That way everyone show's themselves as they want to be seen by others and everyone should be happy, or at least happier than they are now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>And everyone also has to have twice as much room to store the character textures in RAM.  No thank you.  </span><div></div>

[Suite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dimgroth wrote:<BR>Uh huh..<BR><BR>Well thats all fine and well but some people love using SOGA.  And the halflings look like kender or lotr hobbits in new form for the most part and its far better than obese mini humans.  Theyre active small stutured people fighting and adventuring, not sitting in a shire day in and day out toking and eating pie, they still do that but theyre active in this mmorpg. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>I have posted this in the other SOGA discussion thread, but for the sake of defending Tolkien's ideas about hobbits, I'll ask is it possible you haven't seen some of Tolkien's own drawings of hobbits? I know they're a little hard to find on the web, so I'll post some here. I just respectfully must disagree with you. The SOGA models are not traditional fantasy models for LOTR hobbits or elves, for that matter.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Here's a drawing of two halflings. Look at the fellow on the left; from that angle he looks almost exactly like the current EQ2 hobbit, muttonchops and all. He is not the skinny little low-fat halfling you see in the SOGA models.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999></FONT> </P> <P><IMG height=405 src="http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3803/hobbits9fz.jpg" width=405></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Here is Tolkien's own rendition of Bilbo in his house:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999><IMG height=409 src="http://www.arwen-undomiel.com/tolkien/images/Tolkien_drawing.jpg" width=500></FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>And here is what Tolkien himself wrote about hobbits:</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>"I am afraid, if you will need drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, I must leave it in the hands of someone who can draw. ... I picture a fairly human figure ... fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)."<BR>JRRT - Letters #27, writing to Houghton Mifflin circa March-April 1938 </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>Wikipedia has a very good page, full of links to Tolkien's own comments and writing about elves, here:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.answers.com/topic/elves-middle-earth" target=_blank><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>http://www.answers.com/topic/elves-middle-earth</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>In Tolkien's world, elves were very much like men, although more like mankind in an unfallen (sinless) state. They were stronger and wiser than men, and immortal. They did have pointy ears, with the ears being leaf-shaped with a slight point at the end. The type of ear on the SOGA and current EQ2 models are not the Tokienesque type of elven ear. In fact, elves might be mistaken for humans at times in the world of Tolkien. Legolas was very much the picture of the type of elf Tolkien described.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>The SOGA models are many things, but they don't seem to fit the traditional Tolkienesque look. The movies did a fine job presenting the various races as Tolkien himself envisioned them; these models don't do that. But it's already been clearly stated that the goal of the models was to make this game acceptable to an Asian market that has different values of appearance than we do. We think being pudgy or even fat or ugly, or having a long nose or beady eyes, or curly hair or <gasp!> having a beard on a dwarven woman is acceptable. That market evidently didn't and so they got rid of anything that would turn that market off to the game and gave them what they wanted: Barbie's little sister Skipper in one form or another.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff9999>GO SKIPPER!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dimgroth]

you and I have different eyes apparently, oh well. <div></div>

[Naggyba]

Ok, they are live now. It's overwith. Let's get back to discussing other issues now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Thro]

<P>I'm with the OP.</P> <P>The issue for me isn't that the Soga models look inherently bad, it is that they . . . at least for female gnome tunes . . . look entirely different. So while to some people your gnome looks like a slender, trim, agile fighter, to others the same character looks like an old, wornout, slightly overweight grandma. And there really is nothing I can do to prevent this, I've tried everything to make the Soga models look like what my character is intended to be about, but they just look entirely different. </P> <P>As far as I am concerned, the difference is so pronounced that I wouldn't feel one ounce different if my Gnome's Soga appearance was that of an dwarf or hobbit, or even an Iksar for that matter. And that, to me, is the problem. Not that Soga looks bad in its own right, it is just that had we started with Soga I would never have made a Gnome.</P>

[Dimgroth]

uh huh, I have a simular problem. My new dark elven mage looks amazing in new form, but in old he looks horrible, and nothing I can do to prevent people from seeing the old dark elven model. <div></div>

[curtlewis]

You'd think they could map colors and hair styles and such to similar ones so they're look the same only rendered in the appropriate style.

[Suta]

<DIV>I just wish they'd never had introduced this ugly graphical vomit to EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOGA = Seriously Overrated Garish Artwork</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We must have a lot of juvenile Zelda fans who love the childish eastern artwork style with the Donkey-Elf ears for this garbage to be introduced to what is supposed to be a high fantasy style game.</DIV>

[crunchybob]

<P>You know...the things people whine about.</P> <P>Who really fricking cares? Its a game. If you want to rant about playability issues, broken quests or class nerfs I'll be right there with you...but SOGA?</P> <P>Who ARE you people?</P> <DIV>If you're willing to quit a game over character graphics, especially optional ones...well...bye, I guess. Your loss.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make the game look the way you want it to, if someone else doesn't see you the same way, but it makes THEM happy playing the game THEY also pay for, I don't know how you think you have the right to bully them into using the models you want. Your money is more important than thiers? Your style of play is more important than thiers?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Smacks of hypocrisy</DIV><p>Message Edited by crunchybob on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:00 AM</span>

[Nu]

<DIV>I play a ratonga, so luckily I dont have the soga problem, but I feel for all you people getting sick of the thought that someone else might see you as a childish silly asian cartoon guy, instead of the original appearence you choose when creating your char a year ago, thinking it would forever look like you made it =(</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOGA was a pretty crappy idea from the start.. best thing would problaby be to take them away completely, but that would make some other people mad I guess =(</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>Edit: We have no plans to change the existing method of choosing whether each player wants to use SOGA models, so this thread is being locked.</FONT></STRONG></DIV><p>Message Edited by Moorgard on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 AM</span>