The "real" problem with soga [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Suta

10-28-2005, 09:20 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hackz wrote:<BR> <P>The new soga models are nice, some superb and some ugly <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Created a Woodelf, looks cool huh?<BR><IMG src="http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/1249/wood17gs.jpg"><BR></P> <P>This is what he really looks like (or how other people with soga off see him)<BR><IMG src="http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/645/wood26fv.jpg"><BR>HAWT! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> well i have seen worse<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Like most eastern art styles, it looks too childish for my liking. I prefer high fantasy/Larry elmore/Lord of the Rings stuff. That is what EQ2's style is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh well as long as I don't have to look at them it's all good.</DIV>

Strade

10-28-2005, 10:06 PM

Imo elf should look more childish like you say than human. But again, I don't feel like it look childish at all.

Korb

10-28-2005, 10:41 PM

I'd think more androgynous than childlike?

ke'la

10-29-2005, 01:11 AM

<DIV>I'd think more androgynous than childlike? </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats the differance in the look between High Elves and Wood Elves</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>High Elves are more Angrogynous(atleas the Males are)</DIV> <DIV>Wood Elves are more Child Like</DIV>

Finora

10-29-2005, 01:48 AM

<P>There's a difference in how highelves/woodelves/human/halfelf soga males look? </P> <P>/giggle </P> <P>Yes, I know there is, but its so slight that you have to be right on top of them to have a clue what race they are. </P> <P>They all look like teenage Pats. /shrug Not a single one of the faces I tried in the CC on those races could produce anything that looked even as manly as Justin Timberlake (which is not at all). </P> <P> </P>

xphil3

10-29-2005, 04:39 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Calendri wrote:<p>There's a difference in how highelves/woodelves/human/halfelf soga males look? </p> <p>/giggle </p> <p>Yes, I know there is, but its so slight that you have to be right on top of them to have a clue what race they are. </p> <p>They all look like teenage Pats. /shrug Not a single one of the faces I tried in the CC on those races could produce anything that looked even as manly as Justin Timberlake (which is not at all). </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>With the old models, I can't make a human male that doesn't look like Corky after 47 rounds vs. Appollo Creed, what's your point? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

KerowynnKaotic

10-29-2005, 05:55 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EtoilePB wrote:<BR>Luckily, Moorguard's already said that when all this is through, we'll be able to save dual customizations for a character, so we know how s/he looks to everyone. No matter which models they're using.<BR><BR>Of course, my main is Kerran... no trouble there. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <P></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>*apologies*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, I was wondering about the experiences on the test server with this so called dual customizations ... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue I always had in EQ1 when they introduced *<EM>shudders</EM>* the Luclin models *<EM>shudders</EM>* is the fact that they, for some silly reason, had the face choices in Luclin linked to the Hair color in Original EQ1 faces and random choice hair color until checked or changed the Luclin model .. So my Strawberry Blonde Woodelf became a "plain jane", with god awful dark brown hair. Considering at the time neither of my comps could handle the extra pressure from those *<EM>shudders</EM>* the Luclin models *<EM>shudders</EM>*.. I went around looking like some bookmarm for quite some time. :smileysad: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then there was the issue with my EQ Hubby .. who's beloved face was forever lost to the *<EM>shudders</EM>* the Luclin models *<EM>shudders</EM>* as there was just no easy way to go back and forth without having to relog / change options / log in / check face or as we did for like hours ... He changed his face / zoned out to the nexus / we checked face with my druid / changed again / zoned into bazaar / we checked with my ranger / changed face / zoned out / etc ..!!! ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So HOW are the changes for the Soga vs Orignal being handled? Are changes from the Soga linked to anything in the Original or are they completely seperate? In other words does a change you make in Soga effect the View on your Original Model? .... *worries*</DIV>

TheyLi

10-29-2005, 06:36 AM

<DIV>Here's what I want to know about SOGA: are people going to have an option that displays everything onscreen as either SOGA or old models, or will it be a case by case basis, i.e. you just have the option of changing what your character is displayed as to others? Cause I don't want people seeing my evil half elf looking like a pansy anime/emo sissy as the SOGA model would suggest, i'd much rather keep the old graphics for my character, including when other people see him.</DIV>

PigLick

10-29-2005, 06:43 AM

Kerowyn, the dual customizaion is not on test server as of yet, so no one knows if there are going to be any such quirks with the system. TheyLive, you don't get to choose which models others see your character as.hey do break it down by each race and gender, but if someone wants to see the SOGA version of you, that's what they're going to see, nothing you can do about it on your end. The best you'll be able to do is customize the SOGA model to get it as close to what you prefer as possible. (Personally, I'll be seeing your half elf as a SOGA version, because I think the SOE half elves are kinda lame). PigLick <div></div>

Dimgroth

10-29-2005, 07:49 AM

having a look for each model set would be ideal, and I perfer Soga by far to the crap we have now. <div></div>

Rystall

10-30-2005, 12:52 AM

<P>Here are some clarifications to some of the questions posted on the SOGA models:</P> <DIV>The SOGA characters were created specifically for the Asian region release of EQ2. They are being introduced to the US version as an <EM>option</EM>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Character selections are client based. You can choose to see all, some, or none of the SOGA models, you can even run them in /cutemode if you like big heads for a fun change <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You choose what you see on your screen. Try them out and come up with the configuration you like best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those sensitive to how others see their avatars: You will be able to customize how your character will appear if someone chooses the SOGA option as their preference. The appearance data for the SOGA avatar and the US avatar will be seperate, so customization changes on one will NOT propagate to the other. This will be introduced before the SOGA option goes live in update 16.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The SOGA version models are maintained by the SOGA team. Character related assets for the US version are modified by the SOGA team for the SOGA characters. They monitor the forums so they see your comments and bug reports as well as having reports filtered to them through our QA system. Any changes made to SOGA data are propagated to the US version at the same time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, the perception that the SOGA ogres resemble "Klingons" should be inverted. SOGA ogres are based on the traditional Japanese ogre image which is far older, so properly "Klingons" look like Japanese ogres minus horns. ref: <A href="http://www.nohmask21.com/oni/ooeonilist04_j.html" target=_blank>http://www.nohmask21.com/oni/ooeonilist04_j.html</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy!</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Rystall on <SPAN class=date_text>10-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:53 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rystall on <span class=date_text>10-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:54 PM</span>

Vobe

10-30-2005, 02:02 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rystall wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <DIV>BTW, the perception that the SOGA ogres resemble "Klingons" should be inverted. SOGA ogres are based on the traditional Japanese ogre image which is far older, so properly "Klingons" look like Japanese ogres minus horns. ref: <A href="http://www.nohmask21.com/oni/ooeonilist04_j.html" target=_blank>http://www.nohmask21.com/oni/ooeonilist04_j.html</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes, I can accept that, I have often thought that the Klingon race seemed to be inspired by Orcs and Ogers from swords and sorcery settings. At least you can still CALL those things ogres. Other SOGA models however, just do not make sense in their appearance, and/or they break established EverQuest lore. I will try to explain:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ogres - Now resemble big green Klingons. Not really a bad change, at least they look cool. They more resemble traditional Japanese Ogres.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Barbarians - The new "Traditional" European Ogre. SOGA Barbarians are big, ugly and just freakish looking. The overall look of the characters seems to be more similar to the old ogre models IMO, which apparently had to be changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Halflings - They look like five year olds. Since when do you give a little kid a sword and take him out to hunt undead?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Half-Elves - They call themselves the Aer'Dal, which means "Misfit Elf". This is part of the EQ2 lore, and it is why this race has a certain "punk" look to them, with the funky hair styles, two colored hair and peircings. The SOGA models just completely throw this aspect of EQ2 lore out the window. This new look just doesnt fit with the setting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Female Dwarves - Where are the beards? Need I say more? It is a <EM>sad</EM> day in Norrath when fine dwarven women must go without wiskers. Why dont you just shave the Dwarven men too, while you are at it? Asian audiance or not, DWARVES HAVE BEARDS!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Female Erudite - Seriously, umm, lol.... How do you explain this particular change in appearance? Does this better reflect asian mythology? I think maybe these SOGA artists may not have been the best people for the job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Female human/elf - For the most part, a fantastic improvement in appearance. But what is with the <EM>freakishly</EM> skinny arms and legs? How do you expect a girl to wear all of this heavy armor and weapons and go into battle, when they are built like a swizzle stick? This just does not make any sense that women this anorexic are going to be adventurers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These models do look good in certain ways, but they could definately look a little more suitable for the Norrath setting.</DIV>

Xalmat

10-30-2005, 03:20 AM

The worst part about SOGA halflings: No hairy feet!

Nahlis

10-30-2005, 05:48 AM

<DIV>I'm just dissapointed there's no alternative for us Trolls! :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah well, guess ya can't improve upon perfection! :smileytongue:</DIV>

SniperKitty

10-30-2005, 05:52 AM

I for one am glad to have a choice. In regards to Aer'dal, with piercings and spiked hairdo's.... half-elves will be the first to be turned to SOGA on my computer. I think the stupid, idiotic punk look does NOT frakkin' belong in Norrath. It's stupid, dumb, horrible, and worse than the crackwhore vapid look the human females have. Finally, many of the US models are just stupid looking. I don't know how anything can find them remotely attractive. They just look stupid. I've seen NWN1 head models that looked better than some of EQ2's US models. I just hope the female human SOGA model has had a breast reduction. I can't believe the size of the US model's breasts. They're horribly oversized and misshapen. Real breasts just don't look like that. Maybe someone needs to buy the devs a subscription to some amateur [Removed for Content] site and give them plenty of models to use as a reference. <div></div>

Bethin

10-30-2005, 05:54 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vobe wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Halflings - They look like five year olds. Since when do you give a little kid a sword and take him out to hunt undead?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As they should. Halflings = Hobbits and according to JRRT they look like children to most humans.</DIV>

retro_guy

10-30-2005, 08:27 AM

This whole soga saga makes me very uncomfortable. Will there be an option to block other players who have soga models turned on, from seeing your character in the soga model? After playing my character for nearly a year, I'm quite sensitive to how my character looks. As I say I feel very uncomfortable that I might lose control of how other players see my character. <div></div>

CannedBre

10-30-2005, 08:41 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Bethinna wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Vobe wrote: <div>Halflings - They look like five year olds. Since when do you give a little kid a sword and take him out to hunt undead?</div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>As they should. Halflings = Hobbits and according to JRRT they look like children to most humans.</div><hr></blockquote>No they aren't. Where's the hairy feet? Since you're so keen on propping up your argument with JRRT's version of "halflings": JRRT's "halflings" wouldn't have shaved their feet.</span><div></div>

Kyuven

10-30-2005, 09:31 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>CannedBread wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Bethinna wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Vobe wrote: <div>Halflings - They look like five year olds. Since when do you give a little kid a sword and take him out to hunt undead?</div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>As they should. Halflings = Hobbits and according to JRRT they look like children to most humans.</div><hr></blockquote>No they aren't. Where's the hairy feet? Since you're so keen on propping up your argument with JRRT's version of "halflings": JRRT's "halflings" wouldn't have shaved their feet.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>it just doesn't work, i think EQ1 was the last MMO to do halfers right</span><div></div>

Star

10-30-2005, 10:13 PM

I think you're SOL retro_guy. There's probably too much code that would need to be writen/altered to enable the ability to force how people see you override their default model choices. This is an addition that a huge number of people wanted so we're going to get it.I'm curious though how much complaining there will be about them despite SOE's continued comments that these models are less custom than the default ones. I'm curious how many more times Moor, Black, or Rystall will have to reitterate what's in the above post.

Naggyba

10-30-2005, 10:16 PM

No, why should you take away the right of others to see the SOGA models if they like them?

retro_guy

10-30-2005, 11:54 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Naggybait wrote:No, why should you take away the right of others to see the SOGA models if they like them?<hr></blockquote> Basically just pride in my character. After thinking a bit longer I guess it's no big deal, no worse than someone playing in extreme performance mode and taking screenshots, atleast the Soga models look better than that. So already we don't have a way to make sure our characters are rendered accurately.</span><div></div>

luciu

10-31-2005, 02:24 AM

<DIV>My take on the SOGA models:</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Generally, I find the hair styles a little wierd, but I can handle that (some of the orginal dark elf hair styles are worse), none of them can smile, and their legs are skinny wearing skirts for some reason. None of them can be made old (except male dwarves).</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Male/Female Ogres: This is the Oni of japanese legend. Much better than the pasty orginal models. The females are positively frightening. Very well done art team. I may even play an ogre now.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Male Erudites: Not a lot different, but at least more distinct.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Female Erudites: Gives me a pain just looking at them. They are bustier, but the posture! Head way back, chest forward. Looks horribly uncomfortable and unrealistic.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Male/Female Halflings: Excellent job. Small, vaguely childlike humans. More to Tolkiens description in my mind than the original models.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Male/Female High Elves/Wood Elves/Dark Elves: Love the long pointy ears. The hair makes them look like a disco reject. I think the High Elves could make a good goth with the right makeup.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Male/Female Half Elves: Scarification instead of piercing? I don't play a half elf, and this really wouldn't want me to. So-so sort of change to me.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Male Dwarves: Impressive - replace the old models every time - very well done art team. Particularly like the tattoos.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Female Dwarves: Excellent. There are still definately dwarves, but the look interesting and realistic. Fantastic improvement.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Male/Female Humans: Excellent job. The females actually look nice instead of homely.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Male/Female Barbarians: Too heavy. The chest on the male is unlikely to the point of silliness. I think this is a bit over the top.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>The Ogre, Barbarian and Human male models can't look down: their chins disappear into their chests.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Female half elves have trouble at looking at things - they are always looking over your shoulder.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>Half elves and dark elves stand arms akimbo, looks very odd, and many of the new models can't put their hands on their hips correctly. There is a problem with a number of hairstyles showing through hoods as well.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>All in all, and excellent update, and I will almost certainly be playing with the SOGA models, except for the erudite female. That makes my back feel sore just to look at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Diern

10-31-2005, 04:58 AM

<P>Sorry I think the SOGA models are horrible.</P> <P>and why is there no long hair option for Human males? Only one I will consider turning on is the female human, because to be honest the US model is hideous.</P>

Micheal

10-31-2005, 05:52 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> retro_guy wrote:<BR>This whole soga saga makes me very uncomfortable.<BR><BR>Will there be an option to block other players who have soga models turned on, from seeing your character in the soga model?<BR><BR>After playing my character for nearly a year, I'm quite sensitive to how my character looks.<BR><BR>As I say I feel very uncomfortable that I might lose control of how other players see my character.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I understand what you're saying, i agree 100%, but it was posted in another thread that having all the SOGA models available and all the non-SOGA models available would be too resource intensive both on their end and on ours.... i'll see if i can find the post it was addressed in <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Lupus L'Zuli </P> <P>Test</P>

Dimgroth

10-31-2005, 07:00 AM

Im playing on test till these go live, these are too [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] great to not play, even if it is only on test atm. <div></div>

Captain_Xpendab

10-31-2005, 08:20 AM

<DIV>Well, SOGA is definitely hit and miss for me right now, but one thing I think is affecting our first impression is that the clothing and armour isn't quite right on the models yet, distorting how the bodies of many of the models look (particularly the females). I also wonder if the "stick figure" look of the women is really what's intended. Games like Lineage and Final Fantasy, which are huge in the Asian market, don't go to that extreme and I wonder if it looks wrong to them too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm hoping people in the market that these where made for are seeing the same problems we are, then maybe we'll see some adjustments made.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW Is the fact that all the SOGA models have a permanent tilt to their heads intended?</DIV>

Dimgroth

10-31-2005, 04:38 PM

yeah, I can do without the stick figure women, theyre going to blow away (although that might not happen due to their extrememly large [Removed for Content]) however if they just redistribute the weight and make them more akin to our current female forms and do faces how they like, maybe with a few more lip options so they dont look so [Removed for Content] off and itll be fine, also the dark elves lips need to change color when the body tone does or it looks rediculous. Half elf males need chin adjustments as it doesnt move one bit for me. <div></div>

Nainitsuj

10-31-2005, 07:15 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vobe wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Ogres - Now resemble big green Klingons. Not really a bad change, at least they look cool. They more resemble traditional Japanese Ogres.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>EQ lore says that the ogre race was a tall (7 foot +) strong, intelligent, fast and tanned race that resembled humans before the curse. The </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>curse altered their appearance to be more brutish and make them dumb. But they were still left tanned. Why are they now green? Trolls were </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>green.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>My dark elf will be blue. As he has always been, as it was written by Verant in EQ1. Not grey as dictated by the anime devs.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Nainitsuj on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:52 AM</span>

Finora

11-02-2005, 04:59 AM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xphil3 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calendri wrote:<BR> <P>There's a difference in how highelves/woodelves/human/halfelf soga males look? </P> <P>/giggle </P> <P>Yes, I know there is, but its so slight that you have to be right on top of them to have a clue what race they are. </P> <P>They all look like teenage Pats. /shrug Not a single one of the faces I tried in the CC on those races could produce anything that looked even as manly as Justin Timberlake (which is not at all). </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>With the old models, I can't make a human male that doesn't look like Corky after 47 rounds vs. Appollo Creed, what's your point? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Opinions are like...well you know. :smileytongue: I prefer Corky over JT anyday in fist fight anyday though <G> Just know that when I walk by you, you will be CORKY! =) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And at least I can tell what race someone is (and who they are even without names on) from a distance. I suppose what I really dislike most about the SOGA is that. So many of the races look alike. =( Pretty disappointing. </DIV>

Dimgroth

11-02-2005, 06:19 AM

lol, if I never see a u.s model human again ill be very happy *shudders* <div></div>

Rijacki

11-03-2005, 09:46 PM

The "real" problem with SOGA is that they are being hyped as the "extraordinary" gift for the anniversary and thus they will have "lived up to" all promises of more characterisation and different "looks". It misses what people want by a mile (more ways to make their characters stand out from others in a crowd), but it's what we're going to get. <div></div>

Godelia

11-03-2005, 11:23 PM

So now we have the choice between World of Barbie and EverLineage. On topic, if I must - my "real" problem with soga is that neither the old models nor the new optional ones are particularly attractive to me. I'm female and on the wrong side of my 30s, so anime doesn't grab me (at least not as a look for *my* chars in a game) and the whole plastic doll thing doesn't either, though I'll keep it in preference to the soga models. I won't expound as to why, since I have a right to spout personal opinions with no justification. I doin't like either of them. /sigh. Oh well. At least Oblivion is coming out soon, and Vanguard will be ready sometime next year. <div></div>

Raven

11-04-2005, 01:38 AM

<P>The whole skinny legs and melon chests of the new female models really bothers me.</P> <P>I mean EQ and EQ2 have always been known for their emphasis on female body curves but this is a whole new level.</P> <P>It's not sexy - it's grotesque to have characters with legs that thin!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Naggyba

11-04-2005, 03:20 AM

Elves are that skinny though. At least the traditional ones were.It's just the style of toons people are used to in Asian markets.Again, if people don't like the models, they don't have to show them.Complaints about defects like skin showing through armor, etc. are fine. Complaints that people don't like them because they don't suit their taste, are like people complaining because they don't like a TV show, when all they have to do is change the channel.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:24 PM</span>

Rijacki

11-04-2005, 06:09 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Naggybait wrote:Elves are that skinny though. At least the traditional ones were. <hr></blockquote> Have you ever seen one with your own two eyes or are you going on your own perceptions from books you have read or from the artwork of -some- artists? Some artists and writers do depict them slender (not heroine addict thin), others don't. Tolkein isn't even the ONLY or first writer to ever write about elves, gnomes, dwarves, etc. The tales of them go back waaaay further even than the incursions of the Christians into Europe, back even before the time of the Romans. So... which authority are we taking on the physique? From which time period? The Pre-Rafaelite elves definately weren't as skinny as the SOGA models and they even pre-date Tolkien (which is what I presume you might be basing your "traditional" on).</span><div></div>

Raven

11-04-2005, 06:37 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naggybait wrote:<BR>Elves are that skinny though. At least the traditional ones were.<BR><BR> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Rijacki's answer covers almost everything I could say regarding 'traditional elves except for one thing....</DIV> <DIV>I have never heard of any skinny elves that also have chests the size of your average bowling ball.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And by the way - where did I mention in my original post that I was talking about the elven races anyway????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>