Dumbing down the game yet again IMO [Archive]

ValdacilFelagund

10-27-2005, 09:52 PM

I totally agree that some things about heritages needed to be change. Some of these steps were horrible. As a previous poster said: Camping /= Fun or Challenge. Sitting there slaughtering PH's over and over because you just didn't hit the 5% spawn time on a certain mob isn't fun (cough... The Creator... cough). But at least he HAD PH's... There were sooo many mobs that you could just run around in their spawn areas with no PH's to kill just crossing your fingers that they would spawn in your lifetime (cough... half of the mobs needed for RotL... cough). And lets forget a second about the "camping is not fun" side of things. Do people think that just because they are the uber-I-raid-12-hours-a-day-and-have-no-other-life-than-Everquest2 group that everyone else who plays is? Some people don't have 6 consecutive hours to camp a mob. Some people are lucky to get in 2 consecutive hours in one sitting... if that. So just because they have other things going on and don't live in the game should they be excluded from doing some of these quests all together. Shouldn't 20 hours of play time spread over the course of a month or two be able to accomplish the same thing as someone who puts in 20 hours in 2 days? Again, lets remember that this is a GAME and supposed to be a fun diversion from RL. Camping does not add challenge, it creates boredom. Boredom creates canceled accounts. Canceled accounts creates less revenue for Sony. This change is a good change for them and it's a good change for all of us. Whether you are helping someone else complete a quest you've already done or going through it again w/ a new alt... this change is a good thing and long overdue. <P></P>

Ironmeow

10-27-2005, 10:06 PM

<P>i agree with the changes, HQ's are long enough no point in putting 5 hr spawns on them its hard enough getting a group to do them.</P>

beylanu

10-27-2005, 10:09 PM

<p></p>lesser camp times, more chances for the quest mobs to spawn are GOOD THINGS! Thank you SOE!!I even disagree with the OP's title. Camping longer for a mob, isn't "smarting" up a game. In fact, I think the very act of sitting around killing PH's or simply waiting for a MOB to spawn in a game, has got to be one of the dumbest things you can do(which is why those quests simply stay undone in my journal). Removing camps would be actually smarting up the game for me. If you really want challenge, make named mobs(the ones needed for the HQ's) smart! Here's an idea:1. make them triggerable(by a side quest or something) but once they appear, they con the group. If any member in the group cons higher than the named mob, that member gets a "free" evac, ala nagafen or vox of eq1, and the mob proceeds to engage the remaining members of the group. That way mobs can't be trivialized by inviting higher level folks. Or have the mob evac/escape if a person in the group cons higher than the mob.2. make encounters with these mobs auto-lock, so no outsiders can help.3. give them evac/escape ability, but give players a method of stunning them.4. just make them plain HARD!! equivalent to quadruple-arrow mobs, with additional special abilities.5. make the mobs autoengage the group that triggers them<p></p>Number 1 might require some work, but the gist is there. Whatever they choose to do, make combat the challenge. Not the waiting.<p>Message Edited by beylanu on <span class=date_text>10-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:49 AM</span>

Sarc

10-27-2005, 10:35 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Travelin'Man wrote:<BR> <P>It seems SOE is dumbing down the game yet again...</P> <P>Harvesting from tier 1 to 2 used to be 40. Players worked to hit that lvl and moved on...they drop it to 20 to make it easier</P> <P>Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages....now lets make it easier for everyone else</P> <P>You want a fast, guild lvl 30 mount? Work your but off harvesting, crafting, selling, raiding, whatever and save the money to buy it...then watch sony drop the price on it so more can get it with a lot less work.</P> <P>Just 3 examples...there are more, but I can't think of them right now. All the higher lvl players that met the requirements to achieve certain things and were rewarded with them must feel slighted that now more can get the same with a lot less work at it...</P> <P> </P> <P>I figure I will get one starred for this, but no matter...lol</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is a good thing. So get over it. <P></P>

FlyByeT

10-27-2005, 11:16 PM

Easier? What is hard about wating 4 hours for the captains to spawn? 4 Hours? With 5 other people? 4 Hours? There is nothing hard about that. There is no sense of acheivement. There is only relief. Like when a laxative starts working. If a game has to artificially create a sense of acheivement because you have to stand around for four hours to kill a grey, then something is just not right. They are dumbing down the game? They are helping to alleviate 6 toons standing in one place for 4 hours, doing nothing, at all, not a thing. You ask me sony is smartening the game with reducing camp times. I think what would be cool is if they made the spawns tougher or more questy. Actually test the heritages with the desired level and a 3-4 toon group and make them do a bunch of things to spawn the mob. Make it hard, make it tough, make it challenging, make it fun. But don't make me fall asleep for 4 hours...or six...or 20 over two days.... <P></P>

Badtidings

10-28-2005, 12:32 AM

<P></P>--Yeah. That's what they're doing. Dumbing it down. Just like they did with life. Why, when I first started playing life, if you wanted to quest for KISS' 'Rock-n-Roll All Nite' you had to acquire a ride, cross like twenty zones, look out for aggro from insane drivers, and then pay hard earned money for the ENTIRE ALBUMN just to listen to that one song. Nowadays kids just steal it off the internet. Totally invalidates all the effort I had to put in to getting that song. It's like a slap in the face for all my hard work.<BR>--And cars! It used to be when you went down the road YOU COULD DIE! Gas tanks installed in insane places, no power steering, no anti-lock brakes, tires made without steel belts. But we liked it that way. There was supposed to be danger. Now, though, it seems like any idiot can get from point at to point b safely. What's up with that?<BR>--Sure, people try to tell me it's 'progress' and that things just naturally tend to get easier as we learn from our mistakes and try to make things better, but I know that it was all just a plot to "dumb-down" life. <P></P>

Rijacki

10-28-2005, 12:44 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Valdacil wrote:Some people don't have 6 consecutive hours to camp a mob. Some people are lucky to get in 2 consecutive hours in one sitting... if that. So just because they have other things going on and don't live in the game should they be excluded from doing some of these quests all together. Shouldn't 20 hours of play time spread over the course of a month or two be able to accomplish the same thing as someone who puts in 20 hours in 2 days? <p></p><hr></blockquote> Very well said. It's not that those who play more "casually" (i.e. less time each session for what ever reason) want things handed to them on a platter, it's that 30 hours in 2 days shouldn't be more rewarding than 30 hours spread over a couple months. Doing things in small increments should be just as possible as doing things all at once. -Some- longer things (like 3 to 5 hours of a constant pace of stuff.. like a raid) is good, but having -everything- require huge amounts of time to stand around and wait..... nah, not good. Heck... if you want to look at the economics of it, the person paying for 30 hours in 2 months is actually paying SOE -more- to play the game than someone who puts in 30 hours in just 2 days.</span><p></p>

Screamin' 1

10-28-2005, 01:19 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Kenazeer wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Travelin'Man wrote: <p>It seems SOE is dumbing down the game yet again...</p><p>... Heritages we all worked hard for, hated the evercamps, got the heritages....now lets make it easier for everyone else</p> <p>... </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>I for one don't feel slighted. I measure my happiness and sense of accomplishment against the goals I set and achieve for myself. </p> <p>Whether I have item X and player A doesn't plays no part in me feeling good about myself.</p> <p> </p><hr></blockquote>Well said Kanazeer. I cannot think of one person I know who was happy to camp all of those mobs for HQs. We all complained at the time. So, it makes little sense to want others to continue to suffer instead of being happy it will be better for them. We still have bragging rights. In fact, those who have already done the HQs in the old style have bragging rights that will no longer be available: "Yeah, Sonny, I remember camping Ole Bloodtalon. We had to walk from Thundermist Village to the Centaur Fields, in the snow, uphill (both ways) and then wait for hours just to get a glimpse of the brute. Of course, when he popped on us, we had been waiting so long, we were numb, our buffs were not up, and our 'Zerker Bloffo was of behind a tree answering nature's summons, so we almost did not survive. Yeah, those were the days." </span><p></p>

Travelin'Man

10-28-2005, 01:29 AM

<P></P> <P>Heh..I knew that would elicit a stream of comments...</P> <P> </P> <P>I agree not having to camp for hours or days on end is a good thing. I also agree with the posters that said make them hard to finish. The heritages are accomplishments, sort of like a lower level prismatic quest. Don't just lower the requirements, but make them a challenge still.</P> <P> </P> <P>One thing I would like to see is a change to the guild leveling requirements. It is near impossible to get a mid sized guild to lvl 30 to qualify for the now cheaper mount!</P>

Barramundi

10-28-2005, 05:07 AM

I have already completed most of the Heritage Quests and agree that they should be changed to make them "easier". I don't mean that the required mobs should be easy to kill, they should still require full groups or a raid force to complete, but extended camping for mobs should( and it looks like it is going to) be changed. Now, when someone asks for help with a stage of some HQ's people are turned off helping because it might involve hours of waiting with no guarantee that the mob will spawn. The game could be more social if a cry of "I need help with such and such mob for this HQ" is meet with "I'll be right there". <p></p>

Styk

10-28-2005, 08:05 AM

<P></P>This is one of the reasons why im going to vanguard when it goes live, i for one like a challange, and when a game becomes easier and easier it become less and less exciting for me... Sure SoE has me as a customer for now and i prolly will buy 1 more expansion etc etc, im bidding my time thou.... remember beta 1 is out for vanguard 2 more betas to go

Feaw

10-28-2005, 10:08 AM

<P>I think games are more fun when the frustration factor doesnt over shadow the fun factor. </P>

Speak

10-28-2005, 08:18 PM

<DIV>Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun". Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.</DIV>

Kenazeer

10-28-2005, 08:39 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Speaker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us <FONT color=#ff0000>who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun"</FONT>. Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job."</P> <P> In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games."</P>

Landiin

10-28-2005, 08:51 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kenazeer wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Speaker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us <FONT color=#ff0000>who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun"</FONT>. Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job."</P> <P> In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games."</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No some people don't like every thing handed to them on a silver platter. We like to earn things, go back to ur titty now..

Kenazeer

10-28-2005, 09:14 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Landiin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kenazeer wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Speaker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us <FONT color=#ff0000>who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun"</FONT>. Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job."</P> <P> In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games."</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No some people don't like every thing handed to them on a silver platter. We like to earn things, <FONT color=#ff0000>go back to ur titty</FONT> now.. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <DIV>LOL, considering you dont even know me I would say that is an inappropriate and immature comment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is nothing stopping you from earning things and having fun at the same time. I just found it frigging hilarious that someone would think a game was ever designed to be anything BUT fun and provide enjoyment. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You think SoE wants you logging out every night going "OMG that sucked?" They design their game for the sole purpose of providing fun, and will makes changes, if needed, to retain players and make the game more "fun" for their target audience. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Speakers post was more "ranty." He/she could have conveyed the same message just as clearly by saying ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I receive most of my game enjoyment from the challenge and diffuculty in obtaining items, finishing quests, etc. With these most recent changes the diffuculty has been lowered and my enjoyment has gone down. If SoE continues on this path, and my enjoyment continues to decline, I will probably be moving on to other games that suit my playstyle better."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW.......Belittling, demeaning comments are the usually the product of a small mind. </DIV>

bluestocking

10-28-2005, 09:53 PM

<P>Handing out HQs on a silver platter would be more along the lines of being handed them by the Landlord in the newbie quest as soon as we got to Freeport than reducing spawn times and taking some of the mindnumbing tedium out of the HQs.</P> <P>People in my guild are actually talking about <EM>doing</EM> HQs again and coordinating efforts for when this goes live.</P> <P>I agree with the poster that said that 30 hours effort over two months should be equivalent (more or less) to 30 hours effort over 2 days. People with real lives, careers and family commitments that play the game as a leisure activity shouldn't be penalized because they can't live on line for 20 hours a day. </P> <P> </P>

Cuz

10-28-2005, 10:05 PM

Speak

10-28-2005, 10:07 PM

<DIV> Kenazeer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very few games are built around fun. Most games are competitive in nature. Games are about outcomes, risk vs reward, winning or losing. Look at football, baseball, chess, poker, golf, the list is endless. Even children games, say a childs game as simple as musical chairs has a winner and losers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My basic problem with SOE is they continue to lower the risk vs reward, and make the game easier. High end game components should only be obtained by the most skilled players not by the average player. And I am not just talking about causal lower time in game players vs high time players. The player who is willing to put the effort in for earning the 60-phat and 750K sp's high end speed buff deserves it more then player who is not willing to work for it. Frankly the game should be much harder with greater risk, death penalties should be much harsher, so people avoid death. But SOE is lost up with the idea that being best simply means who has the most paying customers, not who has the best game. So the SOE game plan to see how much more like WoW it can become hoping to draw off their customer base.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But back to the fun part. people play games to win....and that is what makes games enjoyable. You don't go out to play golf to lose, or poker to lose, or chess to lose. You play to win. And in most cases competitive games are best enjoyed when matched against another skillful player, or against a hard complex game. SOE for some of us is lowering the risk vs reward to a point where it becomes not worth the effort. Like I said above playing poker for match sticks or high stakes. Same game, same rules, but most people would rather win big bucks then a win bunch of wooden matchsticks. But to win the high stakes, you must risk real money. Eq-lite is becoming a game where you are betting matchstick and wiining dollars..... not fun.</DIV>

Ildarus

10-28-2005, 10:12 PM

<P>Amen Brothers and Sisters. This change is has been a long time coming and will be will be loved by most.</P> <P>For those of you who think Vangaurd is the answer, have you actually been reading the FAQ's of the game design. I read that they are going to avoid long camps and design quest mobs that don't require long wait times. Just because it's main designer is the original EQI designer doesn't mean he is making a newer version of EQI. He is designing a game that will make MONEY. You think Microsoft will let him make a game that will only draw a small percentage of the gaming population, think again. It is all about RL money<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

Speak

10-28-2005, 10:31 PM

<DIV>Ildarus,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree on the long camping. I would rather have a much longer gaming path struggling to reach the final boss mob, rather then sitting in place waiting for a spawn on a timer. The appeal with Vangard is the game is geared towards harder game play, where skill is an important part of game play and if you screw up an die, you will pay a price for that mistake.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, games are about money. The simple solution charge more for a smaller customer base. In the mid 80's I played Island of Kesami and Mega War III on compuserve. Cost to game back then was $ 6.35 hour and that meant paying $ 800 or more a month to play. And with IOK, high end hunting in lairs, you died to a dragon, and it was back to level one naked, and you just lost two to three thousand dollars in game play. Now that was risk. The cost of gaming has come down, and a good company with a smaller player base could make money at 100-200 a month per account and yes there would be demand. Does Mr.Softie expect to be the biggest or the best its hard to say. But I doubt Vangard will be anything like Eqlite or WoW.</DIV>

YouNeedALi

10-28-2005, 10:35 PM

<DIV>This patch is great. And I wish they would "dumb down" the game even more. I play this game, as I hope most would, 100% for enjoyment. That I think was the err in the statement not everyone plays for fun. Every game, every sport is played for fun. But, it is all about what is fun for you. For me, fun is getting a group together, walking into CT (where no one is anymore), walking into the torturer's area and seeing him for once. For me, not fun is going there, killing enemies for 5 hours, seeing no spawn, and then saying to myself, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] did I just do with my only day off from work this week. And I can tell you something, the risk (5 hours of my life) is never going to equal the reward (an item in a video game). But, it will make me happy when I get the item, though now I am so annoyed with it that I can not properly enjoy it. It would have made me much happier the first time I was in there to have the torturer spawn within an hour of killing placeholders.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you play sports, poker, or anything else you "play", I hope you are having fun. As a child, I played sports to have fun, hang with my friends. Yeah, it was great to beat the other team, win the championship, and when I lost a felt bad. But I never played a sport and then thought to myself "did I just waste 4 hours of my life?". But I can tell you, probably quite a few players of EQ2 who have thought that before, I had a bunch of buddies who played (most are gone now) and they felt that way on many occasions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I am not sure exactly how my completing a heritage personally affects anyone. That is what confuses me with people who feel cheated by this new patch. Especially if you are not on my server, what I do has no effect on you. I do not care if you get to point A first, kill Enemy B first, or get Super Item C first. in fact, on my server, I have no idea who the big guilds are, who the big time ubers are, and I do not care. I do care when they start whining about my game because to them it is too easy. I tell you what. You want a challenge, do my job for a living. I write programs all day, now that is a challenge. Sitting around killing enemies with little risk of death is not challenging. If you find video games as the ultimate challenge, try getting married (j/k) or having kids (not kidding). Now there is a challenge. Video Games = fun. That is why I design programs, to be fun and useful. I do not think who is going to be the best, I could care less. What I care is the customer is satisfied, cause that puts more money in my pocket.</DIV>

FlyByeT

10-28-2005, 10:42 PM

Quote: My basic problem with SOE is they continue to lower the risk vs reward, and make the game easier. High end game components should only be obtained by the most skilled players not by the average player. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What in the world does sitting in one spot for 5 hours have to do with skilled players? I guarantee you I can camp as well as any uberleetloser in the game.</DIV>

Deadly Nightshadow

10-28-2005, 11:14 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Speaker wrote:</P> <P> death penalties should be much harsher</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well, I'm 14 and I hardly get much time to go on EQ2. While I'm very careful about which enimies I still sometimes die if, say, the tank goofs or I run out of power and the tank dies or, most probably, my wireless cuts out. I don't want to spend the little time I have working off XP debt. If you want harsher death penalties you're playing this game for too long. It takes me on average 45 minutes to work off a 3% xp debt and I only get about 4 hours a day. Think about the people who aren't light players but just don't have enough time on their hands.</DIV> <DIV>I'm not asking for high end content being cheap, just asking for people like you to please refrain from signing some kind of petition which would ultimately make the game inaccesible to player who don't have the amount of free time as hardcore players. Oh, I said that I was 14 at the start of the post; just don't patronise me or put this comment aside because of my age. There's enough of that in life as it is.</DIV>

Kenazeer

10-29-2005, 12:10 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Speaker wrote:<div> Kenazeer</div> <div> </div> <div>Very few games are built around fun. Most games are competitive in nature. Games are about outcomes, risk vs reward, winning or losing. Look at football, baseball, chess, poker, golf, the list is endless. Even children games, say a childs game as simple as musical chairs has a winner and losers.</div> <div> </div> <div>My basic problem with SOE is they continue to lower the risk vs reward, and make the game easier. High end game components should only be obtained by the most skilled players not by the average player. And I am not just talking about causal lower time in game players vs high time players. The player who is willing to put the effort in for earning the 60-phat and 750K sp's high end speed buff deserves it more then player who is not willing to work for it. Frankly the game should be much harder with greater risk, death penalties should be much harsher, so people avoid death. But SOE is lost up with the idea that being best simply means who has the most paying customers, not who has the best game. So the SOE game plan to see how much more like WoW it can become hoping to draw off their customer base.</div> <div> </div> <div>But back to the fun part. people play games to win....and that is what makes games enjoyable. You don't go out to play golf to lose, or poker to lose, or chess to lose. You play to win. And in most cases competitive games are best enjoyed when matched against another skillful player, or against a hard complex game. SOE for some of us is lowering the risk vs reward to a point where it becomes not worth the effort. Like I said above playing poker for match sticks or high stakes. Same game, same rules, but most people would rather win big bucks then a win bunch of wooden matchsticks. But to win the high stakes, you must risk real money. Eq-lite is becoming a game where you are betting matchstick and wiining dollars..... not fun.</div><hr></blockquote>This was a very well composed post. First off though, I really don't consider Heritage Quests as being high end, so we can take them out of the equation (at least for me). Secondly, as far as I know there are no level 30 guilds on Test so we dont even know how much they lowered the entry requirements. It may be that the requirements are still high, just not so much so. I understand what you are saying about competition and agree to a large degree. There will still be "winners" and "losers," but an MMORPG is not outcome based really; it is something that is neverending and experiental. Using your analogy, I think the game is changing from the NFL Europe, to Big Conference College Football. For most people the competitiveness and "fun" associated with Big Conference College footbal is enough, but for others it may not be. As far as having the "best game" vs. the "most customers," you really cannot seperate these two completely. What if SoE made a game that 1000 people absolutely, without a doubt, loved to death, and signed up for a lifetime contract at the one time price of $500. Would the fact that those people were so rabidly in love with the game (reads "the best") negate the fact that $500K isn't enough to make it viable? To that small segment of the population the game is the best, but how do you judge that as compared to a game which has a population of 500,000 or even 5,000,000? The fact is, game populations go a long way in determining what the general public at large thinks is "the best." Risk vs. Reward is all about a persons thrill threshold. The higher it is, the riskier the activity must become before it excites. Heck, it takes jumping out planes to excite some people, but I wouldn't advocate this to the general public as a way to get a rush. SoE is trying to balance the risk vs. reward for what they see as their target population. I hope it doesn't change so much that it runs masses of people out of the game, but from what I have seem so far it looks like they have taken a small step away from the tedium direction with the changes to camping. I don't know how the carpet/steed issue will turn out, and have yet to really hear the logic behind it, but am hopefull that it will be clearer once things play out. For now, try to enjoy it as best you can. </span><div></div>

Speak

10-29-2005, 12:38 AM

<DIV> Sitting around killing enemies with little risk of death is not challenging</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point exactly.............. as to the other things, married 29 years, son 26 years, so been there done that. Work, CEO several companies...... I game to relax and by nature I play to win be it EQ, poker or golf. The game is becoming less and less challenging, leveling is becoming faster and faster. Content is wasted unless your willing to shut off experience, otherwise you see a very small percentage of the game, and then you outgrow it. Example in very early beta (F&F) it took about 120 hours to hit L-10, which I thought was about right. It gave you time to explore all the newbie zones. Now you can roll up and be L-10 in 4 or 5 hours and not break a sweat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guess if I had to re-write this game I would avoid increasing the levels every time a group of people max out the game. The game would be so difficult in the first place that it would take years to max out by even the most intense full time player. Death would be harsh, I am a firm believer you die you lose a level. And yes I understand that the vast majority of people do not like that concept. But I am a risk taker. To me its you or the critters. When you kill them, they lose their life and their stuff. Why not have it both ways? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is people have different viewpoint and different wants. From my viewpoint the game has become too easy. Thaat is all I am trying to express. And no I do not equate camping with good or being hard. All it means the game designers have not came up with a good method of keeping people busy.</DIV>

Dasein

10-29-2005, 01:24 AM

<P>Speaker, you claim you want a tougher death penalty, but to what end? Making death harsh doesn't make the game any more difficult, just more frustrating, as players are retrograded constantly - you claim that dying should cost a level, and that levelling should be hard to begin with. Now, unless you make it very hard to actually die, then what happens if a player has a bad run and loses 5 levels in a row? </P> <P>Further, you seem to think that MMOs are about winning and losing. This is not the case - I and many MMO players do not play to win, we play to participate in a story. If I want direct competition, there are many other games for me to play. </P>

Strade

10-29-2005, 01:31 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Speaker wrote:<BR> <DIV> Sitting around killing enemies with little risk of death is not challenging</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point exactly.............. as to the other things, married 29 years, son 26 years, so been there done that. Work, CEO several companies...... I game to relax and by nature I play to win be it EQ, poker or golf. The game is becoming less and less challenging, leveling is becoming faster and faster. Content is wasted unless your willing to shut off experience, otherwise you see a very small percentage of the game, and then you outgrow it. <FONT color=#ff0000>Example in very early beta (F&F) it took about 120 hours to hit L-10</FONT>, which I thought was about right. It gave you time to explore all the newbie zones. Now you can roll up and be L-10 in 4 or 5 hours and not break a sweat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guess if I had to re-write this game I would avoid increasing the levels every time a group of people max out the game. The game would be so difficult in the first place that it would take years to max out by even the most intense full time player. Death would be harsh, I am a firm believer you die you lose a level. And yes I understand that the vast majority of people do not like that concept. But I am a risk taker. To me its you or the critters. When you kill them, they lose their life and their stuff. Why not have it both ways? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is people have different viewpoint and different wants. From my viewpoint the game has become too easy. Thaat is all I am trying to express. And no I do not equate camping with good or being hard. All it means the game designers have not came up with a good method of keeping people busy.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I understand. But I never played an RPG where you were dying 100 time to finish a lvl or something. RPG are all about being an hero. What an hero that die all the time?? What if im playing DnD and cant complet the first 2 hours of the playing session cause I died? Im sorry but not all game are about competition between players. DnD is the best exemple. We play role, we try to do our best with our role and the challenge come from the Dm wich isnt a player but a game master.</P> <P> </P> <P>120 hours to hit 10??? I would never played this game for more than a couple of hour before hiting the cancel subscription button. </P>

Hollywood

10-29-2005, 03:14 AM

Speak

10-29-2005, 03:25 AM

<DIV>It comes down to how you play. Look anyone who dies a lot is not taking the game or death avoidance serious. If you know that dying has a harsh penalty then you will play different. You will avoid death by playing better, by using better tactics, by working first to upgrade you equipment, your spells, and to choice your hunting partners better. Death has become so painless, why if you want to get acroos the zone fast, jump off a cliff, reveive across the zone with your shard intact. The experience loss can be made up in 10-mins, and the cost to repair a few gold.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me give you an example of a hard game when it came to dying. The Island of Kesami, the first online pay for play graphic based game pre-internet 1984. Each level you had to double both your experience and skill points. You had a max set of stats, including constitution points which determined how many hits you got in future levels. Each death, you lost a level, both skill and experience.Plus you lost stats. If your constitution fell below 5, you suffered a perm. death. There were stat potions, but to get these you had to fight Lair critters, and if you died in a lair fight, it was a perm death. So you played to live, not to die. The fact is many us did die at first, but we learned not to die, to play smart. Many of us reach the ripe level of 18 to 20, which was hard when you figure the experience and skill requirements doubled each level and a single death at L-16 could take six months to make up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and quote <P>"120 hours to hit 10??? I would never played this game for more than a couple of hour before hiting the cancel subscription button. "</P></DIV> <DIV>Why? There are a number of newbie zones, all have many quest, and zone bosses. Most people now hardly play more then in one or two. So what if it takes 120 hours to do the first 10 levels as long as there is plenty of fresh content to consume? For that matter, why not expect to do 50 levels in 2 or 3 years not 2 or 3 months as long as there is plenty of content and room for growth. Why the fast rush to the next level? The speed of the game is set so most tiers, you play in one or two keys zones, and miss playing in the other zones because you are leveling way too fast. And for that matter most tiers are relative its they are Tier II or Tier VI. All it takes is upgrading your gear and adding a few adept III's and your good to go. I look at the journey and the content, not just reaching the next level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Strade

10-29-2005, 03:45 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>and quote <P>"120 hours to hit 10??? I would never played this game for more than a couple of hour before hiting the cancel subscription button. "</P></DIV> <DIV>Why? There are a number of newbie zones, all have many quest, and zone bosses. Most people now hardly play more then in one or two. So what if it takes 120 hours to do the first 10 levels as long as there is plenty of fresh content to consume? For that matter, why not expect to do 50 levels in 2 or 3 years not 2 or 3 months as long as there is plenty of content and room for growth. Why the fast rush to the next level? The speed of the game is set so most tiers, you play in one or two keys zones, and miss playing in the other zones because you are leveling way too fast. And for that matter most tiers are relative its they are Tier II or Tier VI. All it takes is upgrading your gear and adding a few adept III's and your good to go. I look at the journey and the content, not just reaching the next level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Well cause of the game design. Do I want to spend 20 hours with only quick strike as a combat art? surely not. The journey is fun indeed. but its not only about the journey but also with the excitement to see your next combat art/spell. </P>

Minion

10-29-2005, 04:02 AM

<P>Dont some of you ever want to actually have to work/earn something??</P> <P>I just dont understand how some of you are just so happy to have everything in game handed to you... Dont you get bored of it??</P> <P>You are ruining the game for the rest of us...</P> <P> </P> <P>This is a game built on acomplishing things... If you want some easy play-thru/get everything with little work game... play an RPG on PS2... or WoW</P>

Sonic X

10-29-2005, 04:49 AM

Yea uh sitting in one spot hoping that something will spawn takes "NO SKILL" and is not a relevant excuse for "Working". I've never once seen someone say: well you were patient enough to do nothing but stare at a spawn spot hoping for something to show up so you earned it... Anyone can sit around and wait for something, or get a group of people too. Sitting around waiting for something to spawn sounds more like a Taxi Cab RPG if anything. Yea all the people in the game always come up and say dude you are so patient you deserved Item A and B.If SOE was making the game easy there would be no use for well-rounded groups or you would just run around killing everything and getting everything. Just because they change the amount of wait time for something doesn't do anything but remove one of the most [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] aspects of the gameplay.Being the first to get something shouldn't be about how much freetime you have, granted no one is asking for everything to be shoved in your face or for it to be easy. People want to actually do something not wait around for something to happen and hope for it.<div></div>

Strade

10-29-2005, 05:34 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MinionTA wrote:<BR> <P>Dont some of you ever want to actually have to work/earn something??</P> <P>I just dont understand how some of you are just so happy to have everything in game handed to you... Dont you get bored of it??</P> <P>You are ruining the game for the rest of us...</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>This is a game built on <STRONG>acomplishing</STRONG> things... If you want some easy play-thru/get everything with little work game... play an RPG on PS2... or WoW</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yep you said it. Acomplishing things. Not waiting for a spawn. they did not make it easier to acomplish, they lower the time WAITING on a mob. Thats all. Waiting is nothing fun. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: And if you ever played WoW you would know that its not the easy mode. Its only faster ... not easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Stradeus on <span class=date_text>10-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:36 PM</span>

Swiftshad

10-29-2005, 05:40 AM

<P>I have completed 23 HQ's in game with my main and 20 of them with my alt and I am glad of the change. I know the hard work and effort that went into attaining this, if others obtain it easier than I did then thats cool, it still doesn't effect how I feel about MY accomplishment. </P> <P>Long mob camps is a waste of time, anything more than a couple of hours... it is not fair on those who cannot spend 6- 8 hours straight playing on a computer! It took 13 HOURS to get chomper one time round due to camp stealing, untimely AFK's and a mob that didn't feel like showing up to its own death hehe... Weeks to get the torturer for the screaming mace camping 3-5 hours at a time 2-3 times a week.. At least now when someone asks me for help with an HQ it will be a pleasure, not a pain to help out (and as a healer I get plently of requests for help) with the knowledge that the mob will be there or there will be a good chance it will turn up!</P> <P>Heritage quests are the main way for a guild to level, hard core player guilds find it easy to get 6 players to spend 12 hours camping for quests.... most guilds do not.</P>

Dasein

10-29-2005, 09:05 AM

<DIV> <HR> Why? There are a number of newbie zones, all have many quest, and zone bosses. Most people now hardly play more then in one or two. So what if it takes 120 hours to do the first 10 levels as long as there is plenty of fresh content to consume? For that matter, why not expect to do 50 levels in 2 or 3 years not 2 or 3 months as long as there is plenty of content and room for growth. Why the fast rush to the next level? The speed of the game is set so most tiers, you play in one or two keys zones, and miss playing in the other zones because you are leveling way too fast. And for that matter most tiers are relative its they are Tier II or Tier VI. All it takes is upgrading your gear and adding a few adept III's and your good to go. I look at the journey and the content, not just reaching the next level.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV>The problem is, people like to see that they are making progress - new spells, new loot, new zones to explore and so on. If progress is too slow it is the same as making it too easy, it removes any sense of accomplishment because rarely is there the sense of meaningful progression. The key is keeping the carrot just out of reach. Too close, and you get it, too far and you forget about it.

ValdacilFelagund

10-29-2005, 01:30 PM

<P>Firstly, they simply adjusted the pointless waiting involved in spawn points. They did not make the mobs easier to kill, nor reduce the number of steps required to complete the HQ. They didn't move the required mobs to their own instance zone accessible from Q and FP so that you wouldn't have to go through agro to get to them. They just adjusted the spawn times for certian mobs and included PH's for other mobs. I can't fathom how that makes the quest "easier" or "less challenging." As previously stated, there is no skill or challenge involved in staring at a spawn point for 8 hours hoping the mob shows up.</P> <P>As for those who claim this is ruining it for them and have given lengthy descriptions of what they would like to see instead all I can say is that it's fine for you to revile in your masochism. If you must experience pain in order to take pleasure then I won't fault you for that. If your idea of fun is to be brutally punished back to the newbie island because of a few glitches (like mobs stuck in the wall) that wipe your group a few times, then I'm glad for you that you recognize what you like. If your idea of relaxation is staring at a spawn point for 3 hours looking at your watch knowing that the mob won't show up before you have to log off thus invalidating that entire 3 hour camp... then by all means find a game that will provide that level of relaxation for you. However, that is now what most people find fun, pleasurable or relaxing.</P> <P>The fact that you know these kinds of things about what you like means one thing... you can do something about it. Sony is not out to please everyone, they know they can't, but they are going to attempt to please the masses so they can have more accounts and increase their bottom line. Since I believe that the majority of people would consider the previous lengthy spawn times to be rediculously long and totally pointless this change is a benefitial one for them and Sony's pocketbook (which is what they really care about most). Therefore, since Sony isn't going to be able to provide what gives you the most pleasure while simulatiously pleasing the mass populous I would suggest that you find something that will hold your interest more instead of arguing with the general populous trying to tell them they are all somehow wrong. It's you're personal opinion about what you like, and that is fine... but I don't think it is shared by the majority. That doesn't make anyone right or wrong. Just of different opinion.</P>

BlaseBlase

10-31-2005, 12:15 AM

Kind of off topic here, but reading all this gave me an idea for a game that would probably appeal to people of the OP's personality type. BTW, this isn't really intended as an insult or anything like that, just an unusual observation/idea from crazy left-hander who is a bit sleep deprived. Imagine this: It's an online game with a simple screen of some lush forest, mountain lake, whatever... Everything stays calm peaceful and boring for hours at a time, while people in your chosen chat room converse with eachother(ok, maybe one CompSci student's thesis program that integrates conversational AI and GUI interaction). BUT SUDDENLY! *FLASHING LIGHTS* *IMPOSSIBLY HUGE NUMBERS FLYING ALL OVER THE SCREEN* *GAUGES GOING UP AND DOWN WILDLY* *BIZZARRE ANIMATED CREATURES SCREAMING AND DYING*. Everyone in the chatroom gets to watch your "score" go up or down depending on how ready you were for the sudden onslaught of frantic activity... hopefully they aren't watching your score so closely that they space out on the beginning of their own round and miss the chance to click on the Uber Mega Bonus Zowie of Doom. It all stops as quickly as it started, and your results get posted to your chatroom. People laugh, cry, tease, insult, and anxiously await the next big upgrade with even bigger numbers. No real point to this post. I'm just really tired, and this thought gave me a laugh <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>

Ninusar

10-31-2005, 09:00 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Speaker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well the Vangard beta is starting shortly, so for those of us <FONT color=#ff0000>who like serious game play and not EQ-lite or WoW-eq can look forward to a game where the main game concept is not "fun"</FONT>. Serious folks this is starting to look like playing poker for match sticks, not serious money. If you want the best stuff you need to work for it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#3300cc>OMG [Removed for Content]......you don't play games to have "fun?" Isn't that "the good" that games are supposed to aim at? Seriously, if you need affirmation in life seek it out someplace else, not in a game. Go work at a homeless shelter, Habitat for Humanity, volunteer for church, or something else. Do something that a real living breathing human being can look at and say "Wow. Nice Job."</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3300cc> In my best Allen Iverson voice. "We talking bout Games.......I mean games."</FONT></P> <HR> <P></P><SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>10-28-2005</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:39 AM</SPAN> </SPAN></DIV>What he is saying is. The game has no reason. The only reason you would want to play for an extended period of time is goals. If there is nothing to shoot for then there is no reason to play. If you created a char and at creation he was level 60 with best equipement, mount, ect.... It would be fun. for a few days... possibly a few weeks for some. But when you make things to easily attanable the point of doing it becomes blurred and the reward factor turns into a a joke factor. I agree some of the mobs were a pain and over all there needed to be some changes but alot of things are being turned into easy going 1-2 day accomplesments that have no degree of difficulty. If things are too easy there is no real point in doing them and the repaly goes way down.

Gorhauth

11-01-2005, 01:59 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Ninusar wrote:<div></div> I agree some of the mobs were a pain and over all there needed to be some changes but alot of things are being turned into easy going 1-2 day accomplesments that have no degree of difficulty. If things are too easy there is no real point in doing them and the repaly goes way down. <hr></blockquote>Heritages should be difficult to complete. That difficulty should be in the number of steps and in the encounters not being easy. Difficulty should not be in trying to get a group to sit and wait for you for the elusive 'HQ8 Mob 4' to spawn. Difficulty should not be in trying to keep your eyes open, or your attention on the game. There is a difference. If you enjoy that second group of difficulty, take some NyQuil and then watch Ishtar. That'd be an awesome accomplishment, and worthy of a heritage item, right?</span><div></div>

Ninusar

11-01-2005, 02:50 AM

<SPAN> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT color=#3300cc>Ninusar wrote:<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT color=#3300cc>I agree some of the mobs were a pain and over all there needed to be some changes but alot of things are being turned into easy going 1-2 day accomplesments that have no degree of difficulty. If things are too easy there is no real point in doing them and the repaly goes way down. <BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Heritages should be difficult to complete. That difficulty should be in the number of steps and in the encounters not being easy. Difficulty should not be in trying to get a group to sit and wait for you for the elusive 'HQ8 Mob 4' to spawn. Difficulty should not be in trying to keep your eyes open, or your attention on the game. There is a difference.<BR><BR>If you enjoy that second group of difficulty, take some NyQuil and then watch Ishtar. That'd be an awesome accomplishment, and worthy of a heritage item, right?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OK wise guy i said some changes needed to be made. I never said you sould wait year for a spawn. Waiting a bit wont kill anyone but uber rare spawns for low lvl HQs are pointless. And when i said they are easy i ment the mobs are easy. Epic 2X mobs for most of them can be taken down by one group of average lvl toons (same or near the lvl of the HQ itsself). And most access quests and timers have ben removed so you can get a group and do an HQ in a matter of hours. (with the excption of rare spawns). so keeping mob strength the same and making them more common will just make HQs that much shorter. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please read a post think on it and make sure you have the correct idea in mind before making a wise [Removed for Content] comment. Thanks</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV></SPAN><p>Message Edited by Ninusar on <span class=date_text>10-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:51 PM</span>

Cuz

11-01-2005, 03:10 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gorhauth wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ninusar wrote:<BR> <BR>I agree some of the mobs were a pain and over all there needed to be some changes but alot of things are being turned into easy going 1-2 day accomplesments that have no degree of difficulty. If things are too easy there is no real point in doing them and the repaly goes way down. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Heritages should be difficult to complete. That difficulty should be in the number of steps and in the encounters not being easy. Difficulty should not be in trying to get a group to sit and wait for you for the elusive 'HQ8 Mob 4' to spawn. Difficulty should not be in trying to keep your eyes open, or your attention on the game. There is a difference.<BR><BR>If you enjoy that second group of difficulty, take some NyQuil and then watch Ishtar. That'd be an awesome accomplishment, and worthy of a heritage item, right?<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Did you know that NyQuil and DayQuil don't cancel each other out? Quite the opposite really. Learned that the hard way at university.

Bloodtoo

11-01-2005, 03:56 AM

So...SOE is making an effort to reduce camp times on mobs and some people have a problem with that? There are people who play this game that think camping is a good thing? I didn't see anyone come right out and say it was fun that would get you locked up for sure, but how can this be viewed negativly is beyond me. Reducing camping is not the same thing as making the game easier. Don't kid yourself if you camp a mob for 60 hours you've only suceeded in wasting 60 hours, hardly something one should be proud of or begrudge someone else for not having to endure the same. <div></div>

Landiin

11-01-2005, 06:50 AM

I agree with spawn camps to a degree, any thing over 1hr is just insane and then the mobs you have to camp should yeld nice exp. But sadly quest progression are not planned out verry well and most of the time the mobs you have to camp are often green or even gray making the camp a waste of time. I do think HQ should be verry hard to complete and need the assistance of fellow advintures.<div></div>

Silvo

11-01-2005, 09:23 AM

<DIV>For all the people who want to whine it is to easy and it lessens your accomplishments. Practice what you preach and live like your ancestors.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Move to Montana in the middle of nowhere preferably in mid winter.</DIV> <DIV>2. Pick a cave to live in and hike to it naked. (clothing would make it to easy)</DIV> <DIV>3. Only eat what you can forage and kill. Use the fur for clothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now there's a challenge.</DIV>

Ninusar

11-01-2005, 08:14 PM

Thormiel

11-01-2005, 08:22 PM

So, how much of a rocket scientist does one need to be to be able to camp a mob?

ginfress

11-01-2005, 08:29 PM

Best of friendships were created while camping a mob with a group of people.

Unholy_Ang

11-01-2005, 10:10 PM

<DIV> As I have been reading this debate, I have made several possible conclussions in my mind as to what the bottom line of how SOE should progress this game should be. Making spawn times more managable to people's time schedule and everyday lives seems like a great idea to me. However, there is one draw back. Some people have been doing the heritage quests as they are for months now with the current spawn rates and levels of difficulty. Making these quests easier with quicker spawn rates would take away the satisfaction of those who have completed all of these quests, myself included. Making everything a lot easier to do after all of the hard work people have done to accomplish these quests would essentially be a deep wound to our pride and glory. </DIV>

Unholy_Ang

11-01-2005, 10:10 PM

Unholy_Ang

11-01-2005, 10:27 PM

<DIV> As I have been reading this debate, I have made several possible conclusions in my mind as to what the bottom line of how SOE should progress this game should be. Making spawn times more manageable to people's time schedule and everyday lives seems like a great idea to me. However, there is one draw back. Some people have been doing the heritage quests as they are for months now with the current spawn rates and levels of difficulty. Making these quests easier with quicker spawn rates would take away the satisfaction of those who have completed all of these quests, myself included. Making everything easier to accomplish, after all of the hard work people have done to accomplish these quests, would essentially be a deep wound to our pride and glory.</DIV> <DIV> Although, looking back on my previous experiences with the heritage quests, if I had the chance to make them easier before I was actually done with them, I would definitely take that chance very quickly and without hesitation. The fact is people do not want all the time they spent camping those monsters to be wasted with an update.</DIV> <DIV> There must be some way that SOE can make those spawn timers quicker but also keep the same level of difficulty overall in the field of heritage quests. In my opinion, making the actual difficulty of the quests greater would suffice for the reduction in the spawn times and ultimate cut in the people's prides that have already completed these quests. The key factor here is envy. If SOE finds a way to eliminate this but please the average player who does not have infinite time to waste camping something like Tyrock for The Lost Legend of Lavastorm too, then everyone would be more accepting of this update.</DIV>

Unholy_Ang

11-01-2005, 10:28 PM

<DIV>I am sorry about the double-post. That was an accident. I do not play on the test server, but I can see where SOE is taking this game.</DIV>

ValdacilFelagund

11-01-2005, 11:09 PM

I really wish those of you who feel the game is too easy would PLEASE stop equating long spawn times with challenge. In any of my posts I do not argue that heritage quests ought to be challenging. Certainly, they are huge quests and should require a commitment. However, please also consider that not all guilds are large raiding guilds and to be able to level effectively one MUST do heritage quests. So basically, the general populous should be able to do heritage quests in order to level their guild and heritage quests should provide a challenge to the general populous. Reducing spawn times does not make these quests "easier" or "less challenging" it only makes them less <STRONG>frustrating</STRONG>. I can epathize with all of you who want more challenge out of EQ2 and feel that things are too easy right now, to you I say FIND challenge. Go attempt to take on those ^^^ heroics solo. Develop tactics to make that possible. If you find a level you can successfully beat, push yourself to try the next level up and develop tactics to beat that one. Get a small group together and attempt to survive certain zones which are the same or one level higher than you. Push yourself to see what you can successfully duo or survive with a group of 3. Go raiding regularly, but don't wait until the mob is green or even blue, but attempt to raid it while white or even yellow and develop tactics to make that happen. Those things are a challenge, not staring at a spawn point for 6 hours at a time. There is no challenge in beating a random number generator on a mob spawn, that is called luck. So instead of continuing this argument about how the game is too "easy" because or reduced spawn timers, please remember that spawn timers /= challenge. If you want more challenge in the game then please offer <STRONG>other, more constructive</STRONG> ways to add challenge instead of blaming spawn timers.

KBern

11-02-2005, 12:07 AM

<DIV>Sitting on your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] staring at a screen for hours on end in RL is no challenge, and not difficult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just shows you have nothing better to do.</DIV>

Unholy_Ang

11-02-2005, 12:44 AM

LISTEN. I said they should take AWAY the long spawn times dangit. But it is not fair to those that have already completed all of the heritage quests if soe makes them easier AND takes away the spawn time. Take away the frustration, by god. Just do not make it so that all our effort were in vain. That is just unfair. <div></div>

Unholy_Ang

11-02-2005, 12:48 AM

And Kbern, if you dont like sitting in a computer chair and starring at a screen and having nothing better to do... then why do you play everquest? Why don't you just quit and go play in the park. Oh, and try not to make rash remarks about someone trying to propose a solution to a problem. I know i cannot please everyone, but I'm trying. You are not making it much easier. Try using your brain and come up with something usefull. Or so you always just take what is handed to you? You know, SOE might make everything YOU spent YOUR time starring at a computer screen all for naught as well. It could happen to you. Then what boat would u wanna be in? <div></div>

KBern

11-02-2005, 12:58 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unholy_Anger wrote:<BR>And Kbern, if you dont like sitting in a computer chair and starring at a screen and having nothing better to do... then why do you play everquest? Why don't you just quit and go play in the park. Oh, and try not to make rash remarks about someone trying to propose a solution to a problem. I know i cannot please everyone, but I'm trying. You are not making it much easier. Try using your brain and come up with something usefull. Or so you always just take what is handed to you? You know, SOE might make everything YOU spent YOUR time starring at a computer screen all for naught as well. It could happen to you. Then what boat would u wanna be in?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>PLAYing the game actively compare to sitting there staring at a screen are very different things.</P> <P>If you cannot grasp that, then nothing I can type can clarify the difference for you.</P> <P>I have done close to 20 heritage quests on Pykyor and about 10 on Saurakk and guess what? This doesnt take away anything that I have accomplished. </P> <P>I am sorry I do not weigh my enjoyment against what others have or dont have, but if you do, then more power to you, but this is a good change because again, camping and staring at your screen while nothing is a waste of time and no challenge.</P> <P>And no ideas need to be presented by me when I think this is a good fix. Maybe you cannot comprehend that either?</P> <p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:59 PM</span>

Unholy_Ang

11-02-2005, 01:10 AM

My question is... why do you need to insult people to get your point across? <div></div>

KBern

11-02-2005, 01:19 AM

<P>I didn't insult anyone.</P> <P>By saying if you like camping it shows you have nothing better to do is a general statement and my opinion.</P> <P>If you think it is an insult directed at you personally, you are mistaken.</P> <P>It is my opinion about camping, and when people try to justify camping by saying taking it out "dumbs down the game", then that is just as much as an "insult" as mine was.</P>

Unholy_Ang

11-02-2005, 01:37 AM

Well i totally agree they should take away long boring frustrating camps. Im just saying they should add something else in return to the quests instead of the long camping to equal it out. They should balance the equation in my opinion whatever that may be. And if they take away long camps in HQ's, then why not do away with them altogether? Why did they make them to begin with? <div></div>

Cuz

11-02-2005, 02:26 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unholy_Anger wrote:<BR>Well i totally agree they should take away long boring frustrating camps. Im just saying they should add something else in return to the quests instead of the long camping to equal it out. They should balance the equation in my opinion whatever that may be. And if they take away long camps in HQ's, then why not do away with them altogether? Why did they make them to begin with?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I see where you are coming from, but to be honnest my alts wouldn't have done many HQs due to the camping. So now with this lessened, I'm almost looking forward to doing them, is a bonus for me on its own.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus I'll get to complain like an old geizer how easy the new players have it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10 miles in the snow barefoot I tells ya!</DIV>

ginfress

11-02-2005, 03:07 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>I didn't insult anyone.</P> <P>By saying if you like camping it shows you have nothing better to do is a general statement and my opinion.</P> <P>If you think it is an insult directed at you personally, you are mistaken.</P> <P>It is my opinion about camping, and when people try to justify camping by saying taking it out "dumbs down the game", then that is just as much as an "insult" as mine was.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hopefully us the experienced gamers dont have to face you when vanguard goes live. This game is far to easy, vanguard will teach the wow and eq2 kids what a real game is about.<BR>

Ookami-san

11-02-2005, 03:12 AM

<P>So how does dumbing down the game in any way make it more enjoyable?</P> <P>I remember in EQ1 how much work it was to get your class armor, then your epic, then the newer epic. You had to WORK for that! And when you finally got it, you had a sense of accomplishment.</P> <P>Where's the accomplishment in EQ2? There is none. Especially now. You can't even camp epic mobs to get some decent fabled drops from anymore (T6).</P> <P>So basically... everyone is the same old boring copy of every other person playing their class. Everyone has cobalt. Everyone has adept iii's. Everyone has heritage items. Etc.</P> <P>So... we're all little mirror images with only slight differences in appearance (less with Sogo models).</P> <P> </P> <P>Rename the game.... EverBorg. Resistance is futile. </P>

Ookami-san

11-02-2005, 03:15 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badtidings wrote:<BR> <P></P>--Yeah. That's what they're doing. Dumbing it down. Just like they did with life. Why, when I first started playing life, if you wanted to quest for KISS' 'Rock-n-Roll All Nite' you had to acquire a ride, cross like twenty zones, look out for aggro from insane drivers, and then pay hard earned money for the ENTIRE ALBUMN just to listen to that one song. Nowadays kids just steal it off the internet. Totally invalidates all the effort I had to put in to getting that song. It's like a slap in the face for all my hard work.<BR>--And cars! It used to be when you went down the road YOU COULD DIE! Gas tanks installed in insane places, no power steering, no anti-lock brakes, tires made without steel belts. But we liked it that way. There was supposed to be danger. Now, though, it seems like any idiot can get from point at to point b safely. What's up with that?<BR>--Sure, people try to tell me it's 'progress' and that things just naturally tend to get easier as we learn from our mistakes and try to make things better, but I know that it was all just a plot to "dumb-down" life. <P></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So... you're saying... back when you were young and had teeth, you used to have to chew your food. Now that you are old, wizened and toothless... you can slurp your food through a straw and you don't have to chew. It's spoon feed to you.</P> <P>Yes... that's SOOO much better!<BR></P>

cid

11-02-2005, 05:27 AM

<DIV>Removing Camping it's a good fix! it was time </DIV> <DIV>Gratz Ginfress !!! and you think vanguard gonna want to attract only pepole who spend a lot of time?, well i wonder how they gonna survive and how populate gonna be theirs servers<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />... And you have nothing to teach to anyone<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You just have a lot of time... that's the only differrence btw you and a casual player you are not better lol sorry!! just more time to get better equipement thats what eq2 wow and all mmo are just play a lot and you gonna be uba... so pepole claiming they are god etc you are just a player who have a lot of time(except for a few exception like always but this pepole dont bother about hq because they have big mob to kill and dont see casual player as rival lol :smileywink:</DIV>

Unholy_Ang

11-02-2005, 05:54 AM

<DIV> Well if that is the case, then why do the developers not just increase the actual challange level of the quests while also not making people have to spend so many hours uselessly camping things. In my opinion, that would be a solution for everyone (except of course the people who do <U>not</U> want to try and just want everything handed to them, the kind of people that I have no respect for in the first place). Quests should be more of a test of skill, hard work, heroism and making the right choises, not frustratingly boring camps. I think those people who argue vanguard is going to be a lot better than Everquest 2 (I am only waiting to see how that game goes) would find this method of completing a quest would still be just as self-satisfying. People would still have the same sense of accomplishment, and they would be distinguishable and more respectable among other players, but for the right reason.</DIV>

Gorhauth

11-02-2005, 08:13 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Unholy_Anger wrote:<div></div> <div> Making these quests easier with quicker spawn rates would take away the satisfaction of those who have completed all of these quests, myself included. Making everything easier to accomplish, after all of the hard work people have done to accomplish these quests, would essentially be a deep wound to our pride and glory.</div><hr></blockquote>How does making the required mobs spawn sooner take away your pride and glory? Does that mean that players who are leveling up alts in classes that aren't broken now after LU13 are taking away from your pride and glory if you did it before they were fixed? Why does what anybody else is doing affect you in that way? Again... how does waiting for a stupidly long respawn equal hard work? They are taking away an ignorant time sink.</span><div></div>

Cuz

11-02-2005, 08:38 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>I didn't insult anyone.</P> <P>By saying if you like camping it shows you have nothing better to do is a general statement and my opinion.</P> <P>If you think it is an insult directed at you personally, you are mistaken.</P> <P>It is my opinion about camping, and when people try to justify camping by saying taking it out "dumbs down the game", then that is just as much as an "insult" as mine was.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hopefully us the experienced gamers dont have to face you when vanguard goes live. This game is far to easy, vanguard will teach the wow and eq2 kids what a real game is about.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Vanguard flat out said it doesn't have camping. Check in there FAQ. So I don't really know how this comment relates. And if condescension is the best you can take from your "expertise", then you're right, I hope we don't have to face when Vanguard goes live.

Kayle

11-02-2005, 09:19 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Hopefully us the experienced gamers dont have to face you when vanguard goes live. This game is far to easy, vanguard will teach the wow and eq2 kids what a real game is about.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Vanguard flat out said it doesn't have camping. Check in there FAQ. So I don't really know how this comment relates. And if condescension is the best you can take from your "expertise", then you're right, I hope we don't have to face when Vanguard goes live. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, they never said they didn't have ANY of it, they said they felt it was a bad thing if you're just sitting there waiting for a mob to spawn. They also said if you like camping, you will be just fine. If you hate it because you are waiting around bored, you will find things to do so you aren't bored.</P> <P>It really sounded very iffy on the subject, but it didn't sound like it was ruled out completely. Do a search on 'What is so wrong about camping?' and you'll find it. I would post it for you but whenever I make any references to Vanguard, I'm usually deleted on the spot. LOL!</P><p>Message Edited by Kaylena on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:23 PM</span>

El Conquistador

11-02-2005, 10:46 AM

<DIV>-----------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>For all the people who want to whine it is to easy and it lessens your accomplishments. Practice what you preach and live like your ancestors.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Move to Montana in the middle of nowhere preferably in mid winter.</DIV> <DIV>2. Pick a cave to live in and hike to it naked. (clothing would make it to easy)</DIV> <DIV>3. Only eat what you can forage and kill. Use the fur for clothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now there's a challenge.</DIV> <DIV>-----------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>To the above poster:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Hah, that's a very nice post; it's humorous and to the point.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>How about this practice intellegent posting.... you obviously are lacking in that area. That is a completely moronic comparason. And people do "practice what they preach" when they say they like things to be challengeing or at least interesting. For those who play sports for example.... notice when you go play a pick up game somewhere you dont pick the 4 yr old to go 1 one on one with... or the guy who cant walk because he is in a wheel chair.... its not because they wouldnt play with you its because there would be no point. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>To the above poster: In any sport you can name, there is a wheelchair athlete who will absolutely hand you your [behind] without hesitation. You're right that it would be no challenge: your game is nowhere near their level.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>A well trained four-year-old will also defeat a novice in virtually anything that requires skill, and not just physical strength. Tennis, chess and golf come to mind. </FONT></DIV> <DIV>so Silvorn do yourself a favor eather learn to be semi mature or do us all a favor and set your computer on fire.</DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Do yourself a favor and pay attention in English class. As posted above, you do yourself a disservice. Punctuation, grammar and spelling do matter.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Edited to replace the explicative in brackets, and to remove what might be considered inflammatory by the second poster, although the point remains: Pay attention in school, at least until you figure out how to make a living as an uber l33t gamer.</FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by El Conquistador on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:25 PM</span>

Aienaa

11-02-2005, 02:16 PM

<P>I have completed every Heritage quest, including the Ancient Desert Power from PoF with my main character and about 70% of them on my alt character....</P> <P>Personally I am glad they are changing them.... Some of them were so bad that it took a month just to get 1 part of it done because of location, difficulty, rare spawns and the list continues...</P> <P>I'm glad that everyone will not have to go through all the BS the rest of did when we did our Heritage quests, and I actually look forward to being able to complete more of these with my alt character....</P> <P>Both of my characters are scouts.. 60 Assassin and 50 Troubador.... Out of all of the Heritage quests (23 of them), there is only a few items that my character were even able to use, or had stats my character needed (SSOY, PGT, SBD, FBE, FBSS, Jboots, EE Bag) the rest are just decorations in my house and status for my guild....</P> <P> </P> <P>Gwern - 60 Assassin / Parody - 50 Troubador</P>

Unholy_Ang

11-02-2005, 06:03 PM

OK now i am starting to see the picture. I agree. They are not dumbing down the game by taking away all the frustration it has. Also, I like the fact that vanguard will give you something to DO while you are camping things. OK, so I suppose I can still keep my pride, because now I can brag that I did all the HQ's BEFORE they were fixed. WOOT. I still am proud of myself for doing all of them no matter what anyone thinks. Actually, now I am looking forward to the changes to go live. As long as SOE does not hand out HQ quest rewards on a silver platter and make them so easy that no one even has any self of accomplishment after they are completed, I can rest easy. I agree, huge spawn timers were BORING. I had to camp many things for over 12 hours at a time when i was playing EQLive as a Human SK trying to obtain a Greenmist. I did it, and at the end I was very proud of myself, but not just because I could sit in front of a computer screen for a day at a time for about 2 months. It was because I earned it. Please SOE, do not take away that feeling that we have earned something by completing a heritage. Now, I guess I will just have to see what they make of this update. <div></div>

KBern

11-02-2005, 06:16 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>I didn't insult anyone.</P> <P>By saying if you like camping it shows you have nothing better to do is a general statement and my opinion.</P> <P>If you think it is an insult directed at you personally, you are mistaken.</P> <P>It is my opinion about camping, and when people try to justify camping by saying taking it out "dumbs down the game", then that is just as much as an "insult" as mine was.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hopefully us the experienced gamers dont have to face you when vanguard goes live. This game is far to easy, vanguard will teach the wow and eq2 kids what a real game is about.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>[Removed for Content]</P> <P>I love when people try to make judgements on people's gaming experiences based on personal opinions of mindless camping.</P> <P>I hope I dont run into you in a game like Vanguard if it is based on mindless camping, and no skilled gameplay to add content.</P> <P>Have fun in Vanguard with your fellow masochists if that is they way that game will be set.<BR></P>

z3oslo

11-02-2005, 06:22 PM

<DIV>I think maybe you should take a look at Vanguard and see what the game is about first ...</DIV>

Dasein

11-03-2005, 12:54 AM

<HR> Hopefully us the experienced gamers dont have to face you when vanguard goes live. This game is far to easy, vanguard will teach the wow and eq2 kids what a real game is about. <DIV> <HR> </DIV>Do you think the demographics for Vanguard are going to be vastly different than what we see in EQ2 and WoW? The same people who are currently playing EQ2 and WoW will be playing Vanguard when it comes out, and will want the same thing from Vanguard.

Ildarus

11-03-2005, 03:22 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR> <HR> Hopefully us the experienced gamers dont have to face you when vanguard goes live. This game is far to easy, vanguard will teach the wow and eq2 kids what a real game is about. <DIV> <HR> </DIV>Do you think the demographics for Vanguard are going to be vastly different than what we see in EQ2 and WoW? The same people who are currently playing EQ2 and WoW will be playing Vanguard when it comes out, and will want the same thing from Vanguard.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would have to agree with Caswydin, they will not make a game that only has a demographic of "experienced" or "hardcore" players. They will design the game just like everyone else does not to appeal to all types of players. If they design it so only hardcore players can succeed then the game will probably now succeed. In another time it might have, but not in todays market. Times have changed and for you people that keep holding on to the past, get over it because that is what happens with everything. Things change and you adapt or die. It is called evolution. It holds true in the everything even MMORPG's.

ginfress

11-09-2005, 05:58 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR> <HR> Hopefully us the experienced gamers dont have to face you when vanguard goes live. This game is far to easy, vanguard will teach the wow and eq2 kids what a real game is about. <DIV> <HR> </DIV>Do you think the demographics for Vanguard are going to be vastly different than what we see in EQ2 and WoW? The same people who are currently playing EQ2 and WoW will be playing Vanguard when it comes out, and will want the same thing from Vanguard.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It will be far different then what you see in this game or WoW. Follow the boards and read Brads posting. They arent cathering casual or solo players. You can solo but dont expect nothing good of it.The current eq2/WoW community might try their free month but i bet that after that month they run back crying to eq2 or WoW because they cant play in the same way. Buying shards? No way you have to find your body since you loose everything you wear. Hopefully they can deliver what they promise but i have full trust in what Brad is creating with his dev-team.

ginfress

11-09-2005, 06:07 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ildarus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caswydian wrote:<BR> <HR> Hopefully us the experienced gamers dont have to face you when vanguard goes live. This game is far to easy, vanguard will teach the wow and eq2 kids what a real game is about. <DIV> <HR> </DIV>Do you think the demographics for Vanguard are going to be vastly different than what we see in EQ2 and WoW? The same people who are currently playing EQ2 and WoW will be playing Vanguard when it comes out, and will want the same thing from Vanguard.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would have to agree with Caswydin, they will not make a game that only has a demographic of "experienced" or "hardcore" players. They will design the game just like everyone else does not to appeal to all types of players. If they design it so only hardcore players can succeed then the game will probably now succeed. In another time it might have, but not in todays market. Times have changed and for you people that keep holding on to the past, get over it because that is what happens with everything. Things change and you adapt or die. It is called evolution. It holds true in the everything even MMORPG's. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Read the vanguard faq and forums. Read the postings of Brad. This game isnt been made for wow/eq2 kids. It will be hardcore mostly. Just like eq2 will never get the amount of accounts like wow has, vanguard will fill the niche for the experienced gamer who doesnt mind a serious challenge. Loosing your equipment, to bad you should be stupid to try going into a place where you dont stand a chance in the first place. Doesnt sound like a wow/eq2 clone to me. Which is good its ment for a different part of the market then eq2 and WoW try to fill (which WoW already has won bigtime) And if you're right, a lot of people prefer to die rather then being spoonfed every second you play a game.</P>

FreaklyCreak

11-09-2005, 10:23 AM

<P>I'm all for making Heritage Quests easier. </P> <P>Example: Billy actually spawning in the one called a Missing Mask. </P> <P>Just don't remove the following: Access Quests, Raid Mobs, Timed Mobs Spawns(Halfing some of the times is a good idea but to stop people from being able to rush to 30 dont take out timed mobs), and difficulty of some mobs.</P> <P>BTW...make octagoragon a bit harder he is a kitten compared to other heroic ^^^'s.</P>

Makzimia

11-09-2005, 11:05 AM

If I was able to award stars still Valdacil, you would have just got top rating <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Seriously, one thing I have learnt after running a game server for about 3 yrs is players who are short on time don't want to wait silly times to achieve things. We all, I hope, have something else to do in life, EQ2 is a game and a nice diversion, but, it is not life, and some more things need to be fixed yet, but, a nice start IMO SOE. Makz. <div></div>

Kendricke

11-09-2005, 07:20 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ildarus wrote:<BR><BR><BR>I would have to agree with Caswydin, they will not make a game that only has a demographic of "experienced" or "hardcore" players. They will design the game just like everyone else does not to appeal to all types of players. If they design it so only hardcore players can succeed then the game will probably now succeed. In another time it might have, but not in todays market. Times have changed and for you people that keep holding on to the past, get over it because that is what happens with everything. Things change and you adapt or die. It is called evolution. It holds true in the everything even MMORPG's. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Considering the game is financially backed by Microsoft, I'm going to put my money on the "Vanguard won't just be aimed a niche market" side of the table. Microsoft is not typically known for their patience with investments. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

ginfress

11-09-2005, 07:38 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ildarus wrote:<BR><BR><BR>I would have to agree with Caswydin, they will not make a game that only has a demographic of "experienced" or "hardcore" players. They will design the game just like everyone else does not to appeal to all types of players. If they design it so only hardcore players can succeed then the game will probably now succeed. In another time it might have, but not in todays market. Times have changed and for you people that keep holding on to the past, get over it because that is what happens with everything. Things change and you adapt or die. It is called evolution. It holds true in the everything even MMORPG's. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Considering the game is financially backed by Microsoft, I'm going to put my money on the "Vanguard won't just be aimed a niche market" side of the table. Microsoft is not typically known for their patience with investments. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You should read the vanguard faq before posting this rubbish and ask Legion of the white rose members who are on the forum what Brad has said several times on this subject. Vanguard wont be for the casual gamers. The game wont be dumbed down so a mental handicapped player can play it too. It will be mostly hardcore with a few zones for those that want to play casual and as said by Brad himself : "Just dont expect to see something über being dropped from those mobs" .</P> <P>Just some quotes from Brad and then tell me the niche thing again. Vanguard wont be for the casual gamer that started to play MMORPG's like wow/eq2, they will leave most likely furstrated by the difficulty level and the vision thats working in the game.</P> <P><STRONG>Corpse retrieval in vanguard</STRONG> </P> <P> The key part of CRs, to me, is that they allow for a dynamic death penalty. The deeper in a dungeon you die, the harder it is to get back to your corpse. It's more than just exp loss/debt no matter where you die. But I don't think having no clue WHERE you corpse is is part of that. Losing your corpse is just frustrating. I want you to have to fight back to your corpse, find people to help you. I want you encouraged to use the various mobile bank mechanics we have to make sure you keep around enough gear so that you can fight back with a good chance of making it. That's fun, I think, and helps make it so we can have regions of the world with differing amounts of risk and therefore reward. I don't think we lose any of that if we let you know where that corpse is. It certainly doesn't make it any easier to get back to it -- it just makes it a lot less frustrating by romoving the need to first locate it." <FONT color=#ff0000>Seeying that players here in eq2 already have frustration in getting their shards back (otherwise it wouldnt be implemented dont you think) the idea of loosing your belongings when you die will make them even more frustrated or you think they will adept to that?</FONT></P> <P><STRONG>Meditating between fights</STRONG>:</P> <P>Quote: "It goes pretty quick, regardless of level. But you still need that pause between big battles. There has to be pacing. It just doesn't have to be annoyingly long. And it's not. Oh and the melee classes often have to do this to get their endurance back up to use their abilities." <FONT color=#ff0000>People in eq2 already scream when they have to wait a few seconds for the bars to refill, you think they will accept longer pauses during mobs?</FONT></P> <P><STRONG>Player shops:</STRONG></P> <P>Quote: The current plan is that you will be able to have a vendor(s). This is an NPC. He belongs to similarly to a pet, horse, etc. He has to be 'docked' in a commercial zone in a player city, possibly subject to restrictions placed by the city owners, but hasn't all been determined.<BR><BR>You can then stock that vendor with items you want to sell and set prices.<BR><BR>Other players can interact with that vendor just as they would a normal NPC merchant and buy things.<BR><BR>The vendor stays on even when you are logged off.<BR><BR>There is no search functionality for players. You have to search the vendors for wares just as you search regular merchants. <FONT color=#ff0000>People in this game screamed for easier vendors and playershops. Brokers where you can search your heart out and buying it at a broker, you think that people from this game/wow like the idea they have to travel all over the place and hoping they can find something they want? Its back to the good old time and the old tunnel fun there was in eq1. This sort of things make a community.</FONT><BR></P><FONT size=2> <P>Players aimed at:</P></FONT> <P>We have identified our target audience, the core gamer. Please look up previous posts where I've said alot about who I feel that is. Then we are also going to try to attract more casual and more raid people. People on both sides. <FONT color=#ff0000>But never putting the core gamer at risk.</FONT> And then we are going to branch out almost from a genre-standpoint. We are doing things like very involved harvesting/crafting, diplomacy which touches, eventually even on RTS elements, and more. We're taking combat really far. Good luck on two-boxing. You need to pay attention in this game. Everyonce in a while somebody sees a level one in Vanguard and is concerned the game pace is to slow. I promise you, you want the general 'round' to be that long, because even at mid levels there is THAT much going on. You need to be aware of who is doing what, what NPC is on who, what abiliity they are about to use, if you have a counter. You could be using a combat starter and a bridge could pop up that forks. Which related ability do you want to use? Make your choice. You don't have much time. Oh wait! While you were thinking, in those brief seconds, another icon popped up. A counter ability/spell. Now you need to decide whether to finish your chained attack (and which bridge to take), or to counter that ability. What do you now about that abiility? Is it critical enough to counter no mattter what or can you let it slide? But wait, while you're pondering all of this, two more icons pop up giving you the opportunity (and letting you know) that your secondary defensive target, say your cleric, was just aggroed. You have the option of rescuing him. <FONT color=#ff0000>They might change some stuff, but knowing the majority of players will be hardcore their is only a small chance that non hardcore people see changes they want.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:08 PM</span>

Kendricke

11-09-2005, 08:03 PM

<P>I'm aware of the game and what Brad's stated. As far as Legion members...well, you'll see. :smileywink:</P> <P>We maintain at least a token presence in any game till we can determine if it's where we want to go. It's our "Chapter" set up. So far, we're not very intrigued by Vanguard. I personally feel it's a bit over-hyped and worry that there's going to be little way for them to live up to the expectations being heaped upon the company. </P> <P>Then again, it's all irrelevant to my original point. Sigil's calling the shots for now...but how long before Microsoft decides to pull up stakes if the investment isn't what they had hoped for...or just to buy out the company outright?</P> <P>History's a nasty teacher. Pay attention or she'll slap you in the exact same way over and over till you finally figure it out. I've seen this situation before. We all have. A large, almost too-large company financially backing a group of relatively independant, visionary game developers about to try something new? Sound familiar? At least some of the players in this production are the same as previous shows we've seen. </P> <P>If the playerbase isn't what was originally hoped for, is Microsoft more or less likely to let Brad fix it his way, get directly involved by buying out the company, or just abandoning the company outright? Anyone remember other MMORPG projects that Microsoft has been involved with? How are those games doing today?</P> <P>Enthusiasm is good. However, a good healthy dose of skepticism is good as well. Don't buy into the hype. Buy into the reality. Right now, all we have is what we're told.</P> <P>See you soon. :smileywink:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

ginfress

11-09-2005, 08:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>I'm aware of the game and what Brad's stated. As far as Legion members...well, you'll see. :smileywink:</P> <P>We maintain at least a token presence in any game till we can determine if it's where we want to go. It's our "Chapter" set up. So far, we're not very intrigued by Vanguard. I personally feel it's a bit over-hyped and worry that there's going to be little way for them to live up to the expectations being heaped upon the company. </P> <P>Then again, it's all irrelevant to my original point. Sigil's calling the shots for now...but how long before Microsoft decides to pull up stakes if the investment isn't what they had hoped for...or just to buy out the company outright?</P> <P>History's a nasty teacher. Pay attention or she'll slap you in the exact same way over and over till you finally figure it out. I've seen this situation before. We all have. A large, almost too-large company financially backing a group of relatively independant, visionary game developers about to try something new? Sound familiar? At least some of the players in this production are the same as previous shows we've seen. </P> <P>If the playerbase isn't what was originally hoped for, is Microsoft more or less likely to let Brad fix it his way, get directly involved by buying out the company, or just abandoning the company outright? Anyone remember other MMORPG projects that Microsoft has been involved with? How are those games doing today? <FONT color=#ff0000>Wasnt AC1 microsoft too before they sold it back? AC2 is shut down by lack of players, i have played it but fell asleep when doing it and left in the free month. But i still think ac1 is doing ok and its also a niche market imo.</FONT></P> <P>Enthusiasm is good. However, a good healthy dose of skepticism is good as well. Don't buy into the hype. Buy into the reality. Right now, all we have is what we're told. <FONT color=#ff0000>Yup true true, but so far the core thoughts of the game are still the same as when they started. Will they make their promises happen? Who knows, i think they will. And besides that so far they have been very open to the community about stuff that wont make it in release, something that not always happen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT></P> <P>See you soon. :smileywink: <FONT color=#ff0000>Is that AB in eq2 or Vanguard <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:14 PM</span>

TheKraken

11-09-2005, 09:00 PM

Making the game take long amounts of time to level up your characters is not conducive to Sony's primary goal of selling expansions.

Zeroimagination

11-09-2005, 09:02 PM

Wow, I've been looking forward to at least checking Vanguard out, but I guess I'm just not cool enough to play with the like of ginfress. --- It took me 28 days to kill Rama'Nai because I refuse to sit in one spot for over an hour killing grey monsters to try and get a grey named to pop. Wow, that was hard. I got such a feeling of accomplishment for basically one-shotting the lion. I tried begging the guy by the crossroads "Send me to kill a dozen orange monsters in Rivervale, please." He said "Nope, has to be this grey lion in this grey zone, or no HQ for you." But, I survived the challenge. I didn't shoot myself in the face. I didn't fly to California and picket outside the SoE doors. Yeah, I'm uber and l33t. <div></div>

ginfress

11-09-2005, 09:09 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zeroimagination wrote:<BR>Wow, I've been looking forward to at least checking Vanguard out, but I guess I'm just not cool enough to play with the like of ginfress. <FONT color=#ff0000>Not my problem that they make a game for a certain player group and you dont fit in that group. Stay in eq2 when thats the case</FONT><BR><BR>---<BR><BR>It took me 28 days to kill Rama'Nai because I refuse to sit in one spot for over an hour killing grey monsters to try and get a grey named to pop. Wow, that was hard. I got such a feeling of accomplishment for basically one-shotting the lion. I tried begging the guy by the crossroads "Send me to kill a dozen orange monsters in Rivervale, please." He said "Nope, has to be this grey lion in this grey zone, or no HQ for you." <FONT color=#ff0000>Camp the mob before its grey, lock xp-bar until you have the mobs needed for that quest, your own fault you went ahead in level and came up with the bright idea to do the HQ when the mobs were already grey.</FONT><BR><BR>But, I survived the challenge. I didn't shoot myself in the face. I didn't fly to California and picket outside the SoE doors. Yeah, I'm uber and l33t. <FONT color=#ff0000>I can see it, you wouldnt survive in a pure hardcore game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And before you come with the bright idea that i play 24/7, living in a basemetn at my parents house and have no life....most people i know have jobs/are married/have kids and just a certain amount of time to play each day. And they still can do stuff the want to reach. Hopefully vanguard will be the game we want it to be, and if thats true its the hardcore game on the market. Until then, playing here in eq2 isnt that bad as long i can play with friends <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:12 PM</span>

Kendricke

11-09-2005, 09:32 PM

<P>What confuses me is whether or not players are being encouraged to subscribe to Vanguard...or to stay away? If this truly is a "you-can't-handle-this-type-of" game, then why keep espousing the virtues?</P> <P> </P>

Zeroimagination

11-09-2005, 09:43 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>ginfress wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Zeroimagination wrote:Wow, I've been looking forward to at least checking Vanguard out, but I guess I'm just not cool enough to play with the like of ginfress. <font color="#ff0000">Not my problem that they make a game for a certain player group and you dont fit in that group. Stay in eq2 when thats the case <font color="#cc9900">I like almost all the things I read about Vanguard from the official sources. It's the attitudes of some of the people that are going to that game that have me worried</font>. <font color="#cc9900">(Not necessarily you, but certainly some of the posts on these boards and on Vanguard itself's. I can only hope Brad is smarter than some of his fans.)</font><font color="#cc9900"> </font></font>---It took me 28 days to kill Rama'Nai because I refuse to sit in one spot for over an hour killing grey monsters to try and get a grey named to pop. Wow, that was hard. I got such a feeling of accomplishment for basically one-shotting the lion. I tried begging the guy by the crossroads "Send me to kill a dozen orange monsters in Rivervale, please." He said "Nope, has to be this grey lion in this grey zone, or no HQ for you." <font color="#ff0000">Camp the mob before its grey, lock xp-bar until you have the mobs needed for that quest, your own fault you went ahead in level and came up with the bright idea to do the HQ when the mobs were already grey. <font color="#cc9900">I suppose that since I never read and spoilers on quests and it was my first character and I didn't find out about the quest until it was grey to me that I should not have been allowed to complete it, huh?</font> </font>But, I survived the challenge. I didn't shoot myself in the face. I didn't fly to California and picket outside the SoE doors. Yeah, I'm uber and l33t. <font color="#ff0000">I can see it, you wouldnt survive in a pure hardcore game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And before you come with the bright idea that i play 24/7, living in a basemetn at my parents house and have no life....most people i know have jobs/are married/have kids and just a certain amount of time to play each day. And they still can do stuff the want to reach. Hopefully vanguard will be the game we want it to be, and if thats true its the hardcore game on the market. Until then, playing here in eq2 isnt that bad as long i can play with friends <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <font color="#cc9900">I have no problem with challenge. Or commitment. It's entirely possible I play more than you. And my computer is in my basement. The basement of my own house, but whatever - who cares, LOL. I was the first person with mariner title on my server. I wish there were more things like that that actually take some time investment doing things to accomplish in EQ2. But, sitting for hours in a grey zone waiting for a grey mob that can't hurt me to pop is just not a challenge to me. And I wil not miss it if SoE finds a way to remove it.</font> </font> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div></div><p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class="date_text">11-09-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:12 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

Bhee

11-09-2005, 09:49 PM

Well, I am a semi-casual player 9due to full time job, school and family). For me, EQ2 is getting better with every update/pack/expansion. I play the game to enjoy and if it is too hard or too time consuming to do anything in the game, I can not do it. I respect the players who can devote more time and effort for the game. But, for me EQ2 is the best way to spend my spare time.<div></div>

bigbo

11-09-2005, 09:58 PM

<DIV> Why are you people moaning and groaning for... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh boy I cant wait to log on this weekend maybe this is the month that the named mob will spawn and I can finish this blasted Hq, that is if Im not Ksed. Oh and yes please oh please make that named mob harder cause he is getting to easy to kill now. Never mind the fact im 10lvls higher then I was before when I first tried to kill him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Yeah I agree with you, people now days just have it to easy, yes sir! no more plat duping trade skill crafting get rich in 30 days for you. Nope now you gonna need to tough it out and really earn your money to buy those spells and weapons you need. yes sir I must say again them mobs are just way to easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

ginfress

11-09-2005, 10:00 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <P>What confuses me is whether or not players are being encouraged to subscribe to Vanguard...or to stay away? If this truly is a "you-can't-handle-this-type-of" game, then why keep espousing the virtues?</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dont think they mind everybody buying it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But if people would investigate on a mmorpg titel and you read the faq Vanguard has casual gamers would already know that this isnt a game expecially for them. Same with eq2 imo that when you are a pure raid player eq1 is a better game then eq2 for that game style. If you read a statement like : there will be casual playstyle zones but dont expect to see the good stuff drop there....would you as a casual play it. I know i wouldnt.</P> <P>The trule "you-cant-handle-this-type-of-game" is born on the forums. The forums are against anyone who wants to dumb down a game because of their playstyle. Casual players already have their games, the hardcore (core) gamers want vanguard to stay for them and not being numbed down. Try to post a " we dont want a corpse retrieval but a shop where we can buy our corpse" and see what happens. Dont think the person posting that would enjoy his stay on the forum or even enjoy his stay in the game.</P> <P>What i am at is if people in this game already scream that a shard run is difficult and should be made easier and therefor SoE implements a shop where you can buy your shard back, you think they would play a game where they can loose their corpse/belongings if they dont watchout? I say they cant handle such a thing and should stay away from it.</P> <P>You think that players who wanted playershops easier, wanted a broker system, want to run around players shops hoping they might sell what they need since there wont be a search-option implemented at the start (might change in the future who knows) I dont think they can handle that. Even in vanguard people can sell offline but without a search option....will be pretty hard to find what you need. A good thing imo, it creates a community which is lacking in eq2. Who needs another player, goto broker and buy what you need.</P> <P>Camping wont excist like it was in eq1 and Brad states that he hopes there will be enough places to visit for a certain level range so players have a choice. But most likely people will flock to the spot that gives them a certain loot and will stay there to get that drop so camping will be back. And i dont think that the average eq2 player would be able to handle that seeying the fact how HQ quests are made easier on the camping part in this game because of all the complaints.</P> <P>In the end i think Vanguard made clear what there market target is. All players are welcome, but imo casual gamers who dont want to invest time in a game (no bells remember, you have to travel to get somewhere which can take a while) are better off not buying it because they will be disappointed.</P>

ginfress

11-09-2005, 10:08 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zeroimagination wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zeroimagination wrote:<BR>Wow, I've been looking forward to at least checking Vanguard out, but I guess I'm just not cool enough to play with the like of ginfress. <FONT color=#ff0000>Not my problem that they make a game for a certain player group and you dont fit in that group. Stay in eq2 when thats the case<BR><BR><FONT color=#cc9900>I like almost all the things I read about Vanguard from the official sources. It's the attitudes of some of the people that are going to that game that have me worried</FONT>. <FONT color=#cc9900>(Not necessarily you, but certainly some of the posts on these boards and on Vanguard itself's. I can only hope Brad is smarter than some of his fans.) </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>I agree the forums are a warzone in vanguard and there is a group of people who think they are the elite of the gaming world. Hopefully they will soon find out when the game goes live if they can live up that reputation and imo they wont.</FONT><FONT color=#cc9900><BR></FONT></FONT><BR>---<BR><BR>It took me 28 days to kill Rama'Nai because I refuse to sit in one spot for over an hour killing grey monsters to try and get a grey named to pop. Wow, that was hard. I got such a feeling of accomplishment for basically one-shotting the lion. I tried begging the guy by the crossroads "Send me to kill a dozen orange monsters in Rivervale, please." He said "Nope, has to be this grey lion in this grey zone, or no HQ for you." <FONT color=#ff0000>Camp the mob before its grey, lock xp-bar until you have the mobs needed for that quest, your own fault you went ahead in level and came up with the bright idea to do the HQ when the mobs were already grey.<BR><BR><FONT color=#cc9900>I suppose that since I never read and spoilers on quests and it was my first character and I didn't find out about the quest until it was grey to me that I should not have been allowed to complete it, huh? </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>Nope thats not what i ment and reading that you hate spoiler sides and want to find stuff out on your own...vanguard might be the game for you, i concede i was wrong on this point.</FONT><BR></FONT><BR>But, I survived the challenge. I didn't shoot myself in the face. I didn't fly to California and picket outside the SoE doors. Yeah, I'm uber and l33t. <FONT color=#ff0000>I can see it, you wouldnt survive in a pure hardcore game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And before you come with the bright idea that i play 24/7, living in a basemetn at my parents house and have no life....most people i know have jobs/are married/have kids and just a certain amount of time to play each day. And they still can do stuff the want to reach. Hopefully vanguard will be the game we want it to be, and if thats true its the hardcore game on the market. Until then, playing here in eq2 isnt that bad as long i can play with friends <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><FONT color=#cc9900>I have no problem with challenge. Or commitment. It's entirely possible I play more than you. And my computer is in my basement. The basement of my own house, but whatever - who cares, LOL. I was the first person with mariner title on my server. I wish there were more things like that that actually take some time investment doing things to accomplish in EQ2. But, sitting for hours in a grey zone waiting for a grey mob that can't hurt me to pop is just not a challenge to me. And I wil not miss it if SoE finds a way to remove it. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>Hehe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> eq2 misses that bit of challenge imo too. But most people state that when you love vanguard you must be a blablabla...where i can see the other side and see married people/kids/jobs and still play hardcore in the few hours they have. Hunting down grey mobs and waiting for a pop isnt fun, main reason i will never do the hq i missed where you needed Tarby. Stuff is grey, no thanks not worthy for a few statuspoints. And you can avoid doing rey mobs, but in your case i can understand the grumble <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by ginfress on <SPAN class=date_text>11-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:12 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Zeroimagination

11-09-2005, 10:21 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>ginfress wrote: <blockquote> <hr><span>*** read it yourself above if interested <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />***</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I admit it, I'm a total quest [Removed for Content]. I love finding out the lore of the game through the different storylines. One of my guildies told me the other day he just deletes old quests and it made me /gasp. I had quests from March that I finally completed in August. Of course, those were mostly the awful book (kill 10x monsters 10x) quests. Some of them have some nice gems of lore, however and so I hate to delete them. Anyhow, I'm glad I responded to you. I had a much different picture of you from your earlier posts than now. Have a good day!</span><div></div>

Suraklin

11-10-2005, 01:10 AM

<DIV>You think they're dumbing this game down? Check out the changes coming to SWG this month lol.</DIV>

Ninusar

11-12-2005, 01:07 AM

<DIV> <DIV>-----------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>For all the people who want to whine it is to easy and it lessens your accomplishments. Practice what you preach and live like your ancestors.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Move to Montana in the middle of nowhere preferably in mid winter.</DIV> <DIV>2. Pick a cave to live in and hike to it naked. (clothing would make it to easy)</DIV> <DIV>3. Only eat what you can forage and kill. Use the fur for clothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now there's a challenge.</DIV> <DIV>-----------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>To the above poster:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Hah, that's a very nice post; it's humorous and to the point.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>How about this practice intellegent posting.... you obviously are lacking in that area. That is a completely moronic comparason. And people do "practice what they preach" when they say they like things to be challengeing or at least interesting. For those who play sports for example.... notice when you go play a pick up game somewhere you dont pick the 4 yr old to go 1 one on one with... or the guy who cant walk because he is in a wheel chair.... its not because they wouldnt play with you its because there would be no point. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>To the above poster: In any sport you can name, there is a wheelchair athlete who will absolutely hand you your [behind] without hesitation. You're right that it would be no challenge: your game is nowhere near their level.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>A well trained four-year-old will also defeat a novice in virtually anything that requires skill, and not just physical strength. Tennis, chess and golf come to mind. </FONT></DIV> <DIV>so Silvorn do yourself a favor eather learn to be semi mature or do us all a favor and set your computer on fire.</DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Do yourself a favor and pay attention in English class. As posted above, you do yourself a disservice. Punctuation, grammar and spelling do matter.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Edited to replace the explicative in brackets, and to remove what might be considered inflammatory by the second poster, although the point remains: Pay attention in school, at least until you figure out how to make a living as an uber l33t gamer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>-------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3> First, I would like to point out that my “English” in the previous post was most defiantly unsound in the use of grammar, punctuation, and spelling. <SPAN> </SPAN>For those of you who take offence to these types of things I sincerely apologize.<SPAN> </SPAN>However, in my defense when I submit posts I do it with my thinking directed towards the subject matter not the technicalities of typing and I type with little to no proof reading. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3> Secondly, on your stance on my original post please allow me the privilege of clarifying myself, as I see you could not fully grasp its meaning.<SPAN> </SPAN>I did not mean that the young, the old, nor the handicapped were incapable of doing things nor that they can not do things just as well or better than others. <SPAN> </SPAN>What I meant to get across was if you are engaging in an activity, such as basketball, you are not going to play with people who are not at a skill level resembling your own. <SPAN> </SPAN>This would be much like a player who is in the NBA playing someone who maintains a position on a 5th grade basketball team.<SPAN> </SPAN>How long do you think this 1on1 game could entertain the NBA player?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3> With that said, I would like to let you know, </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=102722" target=_blank><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#339900 size=3>El Conquistador</FONT></SPAN></A><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>, that I did not use the example of basketball loosely. <SPAN> </SPAN>Although I respect and admire those who continue on strongly even though accidents and misfortunes, I can say with certainty that a player in a wheel chair can not compete with me on the basketball court.<SPAN> </SPAN>This is not to lessen what they can do and have accomplished because that in itself deserves more credit than me being able to basketball with the full functionality of my entire body.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>So I will restate the above. <SPAN> </SPAN>Practice intelligent posting please.<SPAN> </SPAN>Saying something witty does not make you correct. <SPAN> </SPAN>In most cases it makes you look incompetent.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>(i apoligize for the misuse if english in this post as well. Once again i was in a hurry)</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P></DIV></DIV>

VizP

11-12-2005, 01:17 AM

You guys can argue till the cows come home but in truth it comes down to this. -SOE are running a business - an entertainment medium where they are paid by their customers to subscribe to their service. -Anybody that runs a business must cater to the vast majority of their players if they want to make money or even stay in business. -The vast majority of players are casual players that play between fifteen to twenty hours a week due to work and commitments. This means they have no time to farm, no time to raid etc just enough time to log in, adventure with a few friends, maybe work on a quest or whatever else they like. Plat does NOT roll in nor does anything else. - SOE therefore concentrates on this 'vast' majority of their payingbase 'especially' since their biggest competitor is making a fortune on working the casual/first time MMOers market. Now one can say that one is not getting the challenge or whatever - lucky for you Brad McQuaid is working on jsut the game for you - Vanguard coming up next year.. sadly it isnt actually more 'difficult' but it harkens back to the old unrefined unadvanced gameplay days which he confuses with 'difficulty' when it simply wasnt 'fun'. Pretty much doomed to only having a small niche playerbase he is continuing on anyway and I think his player base will only be composed of these hardcore players who of course are equally vocal. So I think its fair to say the man is a fool. Anyway this is why EQ2 is making these changes and they are 'good'. <div></div>

Ninusar

11-12-2005, 01:30 AM

<P>False the player base is as it stands now has the casual mindset..... hardcore/slowpace ratio is about 30-40/70-60 so yes there are more casual gamers... however out of those 60% casual gamers 75% still want there to be a high end side of the game.</P> <P>so now you are looking at the majority wanting more high end gear game.... and the reason there are not more hardcore gamers than casual is becasue as it stands right now the game doesnt offer anything to the harcore gamer.... so from a business standpoint you would have to look at it from the perspective of.... well hardcore gamers are the ones who preorder expansion/ adventure packs by the masses and 4-5 years from now the average csaual gammer will have long sence passed on to another game as casual gamers dont tend to stick to a game near as long as hardcore gamers... ( not all but most) so if they decide to make a casual game... they will slowly taper off into existance just like other games have done in the past... unlike the Hardcore gameing counterpart... that deal with games like EQ1----- 6 years and still strong.</P>

Kendricke

11-12-2005, 01:50 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ninusar wrote:<BR> <P>False the player base is as it stands now has the casual mindset..... hardcore/slowpace ratio is about 30-40/70-60 so yes there are more casual gamers... however out of those 60% casual gamers 75% still want there to be a high end side of the game.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Out of curiosity, what numbers did you use to base that conclusion upon? What is the source of your data?</DIV>

Ninusar

11-12-2005, 03:44 AM

<DIV>It was just a guess... based on how many 60s were flooding the game a month after DoF launch. There was no factual data but the same can be said about how the majority player base is a casual gamer who does not want high end. Just from the talk on my server in -50+ channel and what the vast majority of my guild people feel that the game is going way to slow paced. Just becasue you are a casual gamer doesnt mean that you dont want there to not be high end content. Thats like saying that Hardcore gamers dont want there to be casual content, the idea is just not well thought out.</DIV>

spa

11-12-2005, 09:57 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> VizP wrote:<BR><BR>Now one can say that one is not getting the challenge or whatever - lucky for you Brad McQuaid is working on jsut the game for you - Vanguard coming up next year.. sadly it isnt actually more 'difficult' but it harkens back to the old unrefined unadvanced gameplay days which he confuses with 'difficulty' when it simply wasnt 'fun'. Pretty much doomed to only having a small niche playerbase he is continuing on anyway and I think his player base will only be composed of these hardcore players who of course are equally vocal. So I think its fair to say the man is a fool. Anyway this is why EQ2 is making these changes and they are 'good'.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Brad McQuaid is a big part of the reason EQ1 was so successful, he (and Verant) didnt anticipate the game to turn out so successful. Theres a reason he left, and a reason why there are more EQ1 sub's than EQ2's subs - of which are very slowly declining, despite it undoubtably had a up-spike when DoF was released. If Brad can make a game so fun as EQ1 was (and still is to more people than EQ2 has) - while he didnt expect it to turn out such an officially big success, im sure he can do an awesome job with a game he and top developers, with Vanguard.</DIV>

VizP

11-12-2005, 11:24 PM

<div></div><div></div>Just remember - the magic of EQ stemmed from the fact that it was one of the first MMOs of its type after UO and the whole 'virgin' element that many are experiencing in WoW was experienced first in EQ. It had tremendous faults ranging from the fact it had very few quests from launch, forcing people to stare at a spellbook screen while memming until higher lvls, sitting at camps and pulling single mobs for hours on end while sharing with other groups etc. The list is endless and I sometimes feels embarassed that I even played a game that unrefined compared to the MMOs now ere the game play is more refined. You can say that he accomplished much though for the state of the genre it was 'then' but in truth for whatever he did achieve, for others he failed terribly such as the atrocious class balance (see Sks broken for many years and pleas from players ignored until finally all those requests were follwoed through as they had been made years ago to the letter) and many other things. The main issue is that 'now' he still doesnt understand that what he had then was 'unrefined' and wishes those days to reappear. Instead of taking the current format and making it more focussed on hardcore players, he is going back to days when EQ was hard because of flaws rather than intention. And that is the fault - I will place money on Vanguard's failure.. if the nearby bookies even have a clue what I am trying to make a bet on, lol! Think Ill head down tomorrow and try and explain <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As for the guy citing hardcore percentages.. those are way off base by far - the devs themselves have in previous correspondence commented on the fact the vast majority are 'casual' and WoW is a testament that the MMO market favours a game that is more focussed on the light player (looka t the 4 million subsciber base, the difficulty of that game and the fact most of their players are NEW to mmos). There is simply no question about it - if I was running this game, my focus would be on the people that comproise most of my playerbase and the success of my competitor. And that is the casual market. If the hardcore market feels shafted, honestly there is nothing to say except 'tough'. I only mentioned Vanguard because this is supposed to target this fraction of the MMO crowd but as I said I will put money where my mouth is and bet against Vanguard success with its maximum being a niche market (see less than 70k subscribers at its peak if even that). This is from someone that has played MMOs from years (I was playing Everquest at launch and was there until vellious). I may be wrong but hey I have been right before (see SW:G and the second coming of MMOs lol). However opinions are opinions and these are simply mine <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You can disregard them if you like - we shall see what happens! But from what I see, the hardcore gamers rank no more than 10% of this player base.. you can see this if you have subscribed to advanced player rankings. It tells you the number of ppl that are above you in lvl on your server for your class and also worldwide. As soon as you hit 50 there are literally between 10 to 40/45 ppl in your class left on your server depending on that specific clcass popularity. If you spread that between classes you only have a few hundred players above 50 while the vast majority are slowly working their way through lower lvls (thousands). Did you think it was a coincidence one starts running into the same names and faces more and more after 50? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by VizP on <span class=date_text>11-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:28 AM</span>

ginfress

11-12-2005, 11:48 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> VizP wrote:<BR> Just remember - the magic of EQ stemmed from the fact that it was one of the first MMOs of its type after UO and the whole 'virgin' element that many are experiencing in WoW was experienced first in EQ. It had tremendous faults ranging from the fact it had very few quests from launch, forcing people to stare at a spellbook screen while memming until higher lvls, sitting at camps and pulling single mobs for hours on end while sharing with other groups etc. The list is endless and I sometimes feels embarassed that I even played a game that unrefined compared to the MMOs now ere the game play is more refined.<BR><BR>You can say that he accomplished much though for the state of the genre it was 'then' but in truth for whatever he did achieve, for others he failed terribly such as the atrocious class balance (see Sks broken for many years and pleas from players ignored until finally all those requests were follwoed through as they had been made years ago to the letter) and many other things.<BR><BR>The main issue is that 'now' he still doesnt understand that what he had then was 'unrefined' and wishes those days to reappear. Instead of taking the current format and making it more focussed on hardcore players, he is going back to days when EQ was hard because of flaws rather than intention. And that is the fault - I will place money on Vanguard's failure.. if the nearby bookies even have a clue what I am trying to make a bet on, lol! Think Ill head down tomorrow and try and explain <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>As for the guy citing hardcore percentages.. those are way off base by far - the devs themselves have in previous correspondence commented on the fact the vast majority are 'casual' and WoW is a testament that the MMO market favours a game that is more focussed on the light player (looka t the 4 million subsciber base, the difficulty of that game and the fact most of their players are NEW to mmos). There is simply no question about it - if I was running this game, my focus would be on the people that comproise most of my playerbase and the success of my competitor. And that is the casual market.<BR><BR>If the hardcore market feels shafted, honestly there is nothing to say except 'tough'. I only mentioned Vanguard because this is supposed to target this fraction of the MMO crowd but as I said I will put money where my mouth is and bet against Vanguard success with its maximum being a niche market (see less than 70k subscribers at its peak if even that). This is from someone that has played MMOs from years (I was playing Everquest at launch and was there until vellious). I may be wrong but hey I have been right before (see SW:G and the second coming of MMOs lol).<BR><BR>However opinions are opinions and these are simply mine <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You can disregard them if you like - we shall see what happens! But from what I see, the hardcore gamers rank no more than 10% of this player base.. you can see this if you have subscribed to advanced player rankings. It tells you the number of ppl that are above you in lvl on your server for your class and also worldwide. As soon as you hit 50 there are literally between 10 to 40/45 ppl in your class left on your server depending on that specific clcass popularity. If you spread that between classes you only have a few hundred players above 50 while the vast majority are slowly working their way through lower lvls (thousands). Did you think it was a coincidence one starts running into the same names and faces more and more after 50? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P>Message Edited by VizP on <SPAN class=date_text>11-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:28 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I rather play vanguard with 70k worldclass players then wow/eq2 with more then 4 mill mental handicapped gamers who dont have a clue what they are doing besisdes trying to get everything the easy way. Vanguard will show the world what true hardcore gaming is about, if Brad can keep his promises. But i bet that vanguard will be a bit higher then just 70k since most hardcore players are following vanguard for years and rather leave their current game for vanguard. If Brad recreates the magic from eq1 up to velious back hardcores from eq1 will jump over too. <BR> <P>Message Edited by ginfress on <SPAN class=date_text>11-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:49 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>11-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:30 PM</span>

Kendricke

11-13-2005, 04:58 AM

Qandor

11-14-2005, 03:05 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>I rather play vanguard with 70k worldclass players then wow/eq2 with more then 4 mill mental handicapped gamers who dont have a clue what they are doing besisdes trying to get everything the easy way. Vanguard will show the world what true hardcore gaming is about, if Brad can keep his promises. But i bet that vanguard will be a bit higher then just 70k since most hardcore players are following vanguard for years and rather leave their current game for vanguard. If Brad recreates the magic from eq1 up to velious back hardcores from eq1 will jump over too. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have great hopes for Vanguard but I really don't know where you are getting your information from in terms of it being for hardcore gamers only to the exclusion of all else. Vanguard's goal is to create a more challenging game than the current crop of MMORPG's, namely WoW and EQ2, but they have never stated their target audience is hardcore gamers.</P> <P>From their FAQ we have this</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>The game is going to focus on character advancement, item acquisition, and interdependence to build community and teamwork. <BR><BR>If I had to compare it to another game, take original EQ, Kunark, and Velious -- that sort of challenge.</FONT> <BR> </P> <P>Now you may have thought you were some kind of "worldclass" "hardcore" blood and guts player having played EQ in that era, but I have to tell you that there were about 400k-500k of you then. EQ, Kunark, and Velious did not have a gut wrenching level of difficulty by any stretch of the imagination. It was certainly more challenging then todays games but it was well within the comfort zone for a fairly wide range of playstyles. I can gaurantee you that Microsoft is not backing a project aimed at a mere 70k worldclass players as you put it. I think those who are most likely to be disappointed in Vanguard are those who have somehow deluded themselves into thinking that Vanguard is being made for some ultra-hardcore audience. That is simply not the case.</P> <P>I would suggest that anyone who may be interested in Vanguard, take the time to read their FAQ's for themselves and make their own judgement as to what the goals of the game will be. It is being made for a far broader audience than some would have you believe. </P> <P>A final snippet from their FAQ's</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff66>Generally, if you enjoyed the challenge level of <I>EverQuest </I>and its first couple of expansions, you will likely enjoy <I>Vanguard</I> as well. But, just as importantly, those areas most people found overly tedious (boat rides with nothing to do, or camping hours in one spot) will be addressed with newer, better game mechanics.</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Qandor on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:33 AM</span>

missionarymarr

11-14-2005, 03:27 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qandor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>I rather play vanguard with 70k worldclass players then wow/eq2 with more then 4 mill mental handicapped gamers who dont have a clue what they are doing besisdes trying to get everything the easy way. Vanguard will show the world what true hardcore gaming is about, if Brad can keep his promises. But i bet that vanguard will be a bit higher then just 70k since most hardcore players are following vanguard for years and rather leave their current game for vanguard. If Brad recreates the magic from eq1 up to velious back hardcores from eq1 will jump over too. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have great hopes for Vanguard but I really don't know where you are getting your information from in terms of it being for hardcore gamers only to the exclusion of all else. Vanguard's goal is to create a more challenging game than the current crop of MMORPG's, namely WoW and EQ2, but they have never stated their target audience is hardcore gamers.</P> <P>From their FAQ we have this</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>The game is going to focus on character advancement, item acquisition, and interdependence to build community and teamwork. <BR><BR>If I had to compare it to another game, take original EQ, Kunark, and Velious -- that sort of challenge.</FONT> <BR> </P> <P>Now you may have thought you were some kind of "worldclass" "hardcore" blood and guts player having played EQ in that era, but I have to tell you that there were about 400k-500k of you then. EQ, Kunark, and Velious did not have a gut wrenching level of difficulty by any stretch of the imagination. It was certainly more challenging then todays games but it was well within the comfort zone for a fairly wide range of playstyles. I can gaurantee you that Microsoft is not backing a project aimed at a mere 70k worldclass players as you put it. I think those who are most likely to be disappointed in Vanguard are those who have somehow deluded themselves into thinking that Vanguard is being made for some ultra-hardcore audience. That is simply not the case.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well from everything I have read Vanguard will not do well in today's market. There are to many MMO's out now that allow people to play in smaller time frames. Vanguard is going to be more like EQ1 was for a long time which means you are going to need to group for everything. Which means in the end that for those with only limited time to play it becomes pointless to even try and play. As people have pointed out look at WoW and how many players it has. That in my opinion started the major change in the MMO genre. For any to get the numbers that the original EQ had or like Wow they are going to have to take an approach that will allow players to get things done with limited playtime.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The original EQ1 had many advantages mainly because it was one of the only MMO's for quite a while. Finally as for those that say how good EQ1 was because of Mcquaid. I tend to hink it did well in spite of him. He layed a good base but there were a lot of annoying features that he wouldn't change that hurt the game. Most of these were changed after he left and made the game better. After a while though they did start making even more changes that made it a little to easy but that is another topic. </DIV>

ginfress

11-14-2005, 05:26 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qandor wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>I rather play vanguard with 70k worldclass players then wow/eq2 with more then 4 mill mental handicapped gamers who dont have a clue what they are doing besisdes trying to get everything the easy way. Vanguard will show the world what true hardcore gaming is about, if Brad can keep his promises. But i bet that vanguard will be a bit higher then just 70k since most hardcore players are following vanguard for years and rather leave their current game for vanguard. If Brad recreates the magic from eq1 up to velious back hardcores from eq1 will jump over too. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have great hopes for Vanguard but I really don't know where you are getting your information from in terms of it being for hardcore gamers only to the exclusion of all else. Vanguard's goal is to create a more challenging game than the current crop of MMORPG's, namely WoW and EQ2, but they have never stated their target audience is hardcore gamers.</P> <P>From their FAQ we have this</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff33>The game is going to focus on character advancement, item acquisition, and interdependence to build community and teamwork. <BR><BR>If I had to compare it to another game, take original EQ, Kunark, and Velious -- that sort of challenge.</FONT> <BR> </P> <P>Now you may have thought you were some kind of "worldclass" "hardcore" blood and guts player having played EQ in that era, but I have to tell you that there were about 400k-500k of you then. EQ, Kunark, and Velious did not have a gut wrenching level of difficulty by any stretch of the imagination. It was certainly more challenging then todays games but it was well within the comfort zone for a fairly wide range of playstyles. I can gaurantee you that Microsoft is not backing a project aimed at a mere 70k worldclass players as you put it. I think those who are most likely to be disappointed in Vanguard are those who have somehow deluded themselves into thinking that Vanguard is being made for some ultra-hardcore audience. That is simply not the case.</P> <P>I would suggest that anyone who may be interested in Vanguard, take the time to read their FAQ's for themselves and make their own judgement as to what the goals of the game will be. It is being made for a far broader audience than some would have you believe. </P> <P>A final snippet from their FAQ's</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff66>Generally, if you enjoyed the challenge level of <I>EverQuest </I>and its first couple of expansions, you will likely enjoy <I>Vanguard</I> as well. But, just as importantly, those areas most people found overly tedious (boat rides with nothing to do, or camping hours in one spot) will be addressed with newer, better game mechanics.</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by Qandor on <SPAN class=date_text>11-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:33 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You forget to quote this one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in a casual area vs. a group area. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region</FONT>.<BR></P> <P>Now you tell me if a casual player would like to play when you know upper quote.</P>

spa

11-14-2005, 05:30 PM

<DIV>WoW has 4mill players because it had the well known "Warcraft" name on it which nearly everyone knows it exists, other MMOG's - world wide, doesnt have that popularity. Most of the WoW customers probably never knew MMOG's existed. Many of the people that have played other MMOG's before WoW are now saying how it sux with very little content, yet it has 4mill players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just shows the potential a game can offer that current new MMOG's dont have - a world rammed massivly with content, and not just players and pizza boy jobs errr quests, none of the newest MMOG's dont have that real addictivness that makes you seriously want to quit RL things because the game is just SO addictive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, EQ1 was the main MMOG in North America alone when it first came out, there was others world-wide, while the Euro market was next to none, because not many people used the internet, especially for gaming. Now in North America and Europe nearly everyone has the option to use the internet. Back before say 2000 there was hardly any people using the internet - compared to today, but since then with the help of broadband people are realising the power of the internet, and are noticing how much fun online games is becoming. Hence why WoW has achieved the amount of players it has got, it had the "Warcraft" logo on it that the world knows about. Unlike other MMOG's. Will be interesting to see how Microsoft marketises Vanguard, its a completely new game. But then im sure Brad can pull it off, he did it with EQ1 when not many people played online games or even used the internet.</DIV>

spa

11-14-2005, 05:34 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote: <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in a casual area vs. a group area. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region</FONT>.<BR></P> <P>Now you tell me if a casual player would like to play when you know upper quote.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Alot of people arnt bothered about being the best. They play for the content.</DIV>

Kendricke

11-14-2005, 07:49 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in a casual area vs. a group area. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region</FONT>.<BR></P> <P>Now you tell me if a casual player would like to play when you know upper quote.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Shall I now quote dozens of your posts from the Guild discussion forum where you argued that Everquest 2's contested raid system is too hard for casual, smaller guilds to participate in - that it's too exclusionary?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

ginfress

11-14-2005, 08:24 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in a casual area vs. a group area. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region</FONT>.<BR></P> <P>Now you tell me if a casual player would like to play when you know upper quote.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Shall I now quote dozens of your posts from the Guild discussion forum where you argued that Everquest 2's contested raid system is too hard for casual, smaller guilds to participate in - that it's too exclusionary?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We had that battle Kendricke. I stick to my opinion, contested mobs DONT belong in a casual friendly game. And at vanguard, casual gamers dont belong in it easy and simple <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And thats where i keep it since the only reason of your question is trying to get me another ban <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:25 PM</span>

Ninusar

11-14-2005, 08:31 PM

<P>Ok let me restate what i said earlier. i said 30-40/70-60 playerbase was hardcore gamer..... i did not say this as a fact but it has been taken as one so i will do a little "pointing out" of my own. now granted there are different grades of hardcore gamers and i am taking in account all of them. The ones that play enough to level fast and know what they are doing and the ones that have grp of player friends set up a week before expansion for a grp lvl cap grind. A casual gamer is one that can only play casualy (Occurring at irregular or infrequent intervals <--------- definiton) so someone who gets on everyday for long enough to accomplish something is not a "casual gamer". </P> <P>With that said i can tell you that at least 30% of the playerbase leveled from 1-50 or did the equal amount of work lvling multiple chars within lets say 5 months. If after 5 Months of a MMO you are maxed out i will give you the title of hardcore gamer. You may not be as hardcore as other but the fact of the matter is you play enough to max out your char faster than the game can provide updated content. </P> <P>(And plz dont argue this point. its pointless. no i dont have actual data. but i can tell you that if you made 10 firends after launch (ones in which didnt just quit the game) 3 of them were lvl 50 after 5 months. )</P> <P>and out of those other 7 players you cant say that the majority of them dont want high end content. Thats part of playing a game casual or harcore... seeing something you want. </P> <P>So dont tell me that the vast majority wants the game to be casual based. There is nothing wrong with casual gameplay i enjoy it on many occasions but to say that casual gammers dominate the MMO market is redicolus. and dont bring up WoW ever agian plz you are talking about a game where 80% of its subsciber base is not MMO based its based off the ppl who played the strategic battle game called Warcraft. A great game. EQ2 is never going to get the mass suport of the people who play that game currently because they are not playing WoW because of its MMO qualities (which it seriously lacks) they play it because its Warcraft. </P> <P>And about your Vanguard prediction. You may or may not be right but the point of the matter is the 70k-100k ppl who would play Vanguard would be there for the next 5-10 years. And much like you promised i will Promise you, unless something changes in WoW it will not be around in 5 years. Not at the level it currently is. It will just turn into another Diablo.</P> <P>EQ does not however have that going for them. The ppl who play EQ and EQ2 are playing it becasue its a MMO. MMOs are suposed to be massive worlds with seemingly limitless content. Something EQ2 does not have. Without that factor players will get bored thats factual... and if you cant keep players coming back for more then your game is going down the drain.</P><p>Message Edited by Ninusar on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:33 AM</span>

Zeroimagination

11-14-2005, 10:08 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>ginfress wrote: <p>You forget to quote this one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in a casual area vs. a group area. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region</font>.</p> <p>Now you tell me if a casual player would like to play when you know upper quote.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>If a Fiery Scimitar of Ultimate Doom drops anywhere, I have some question about if I'd want to play, LOL.</span><div></div>

Qandor

11-15-2005, 12:54 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR> <P><BR>You forget to quote this one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in a casual area vs. a group area. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region</FONT>.<BR></P> <P>Now you tell me if a casual player would like to play when you know upper quote.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I didn't forget that one. There is nothing in that quote that should deter anyone from playing. True gamers expect a good risk vs. reward balance and folks with less time to play are not expecting a free ride as a whole. I think you have placed yourself on some type of pedestal as the epitome of what a real gamer is and anyone who does not neatly fit into your mold is somehow casual and unworthy. </P> <P>I alluded to the fact that I feel you are deluding yourself in what you think Vanguard will be. I will go a step further. I think you will be one of the first to quit Vanguard claiming they sold out. Vanguard is not being designed solely as the playground for your perceived ultra-hardcore. Brad mentions his target audience is the "core" gamer. You have somehow taken that to mean hardcore gamer. When Brad talks about the core gamer, he is talking about those folks who fit the demographic that existed in EQ1 from Velious on back. That is your average folks. You know - the folks that have to get up and go to work in the morning. People who play in the 20 hour a week range. Surely, Vanguard may be a tough nut to crack if you play 5 to 10 hours a week. The game is not being designed to accomodate extreme casual play. However, for those who enjoy gaming as a hobby and play on a regular basis, Vanguard looks to provide a very nice fit. Only time will tell how it all turns out but I know for sure that myself and many others will be checking it out when it is released.<BR></P>

ginfress

11-15-2005, 01:13 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qandor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR> <P><BR>You forget to quote this one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in a casual area vs. a group area. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region</FONT>.<BR></P> <P>Now you tell me if a casual player would like to play when you know upper quote.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I didn't forget that one. There is nothing in that quote that should deter anyone from playing. True gamers expect a good risk vs. reward balance and folks with less time to play are not expecting a free ride as a whole. I think you have placed yourself on some type of pedestal as the epitome of what a real gamer is and anyone who does not neatly fit into your mold is somehow casual and unworthy. <FONT color=#ff0000>Am not standing on a pedestal dont worry, i know who i am and what i can do. But one thing is true i dont consider all people equal and indeed people that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up in a game are unworthy of getting my spare time. So yeah in game terms to speak certain people are low life crap ion my eyes about equalwith trash mobs in a raid zone <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Which doesnt mean they are the same in RL, some people cant see the differrence in game and RL.</FONT></P> <P>I alluded to the fact that I feel you are deluding yourself in what you think Vanguard will be. I will go a step further. I think you will be one of the first to quit Vanguard claiming they sold out. <FONT color=#ff0000>Wont happen, Brad = god when talking about the MMORPG world. Vanguard will have problems, vanguard will have bugs its afterall a game. But i have more trust in Brad then $medley and Scott when talking about gameplay and fun. </FONT>Vanguard is not being designed solely as the playground for your perceived ultra-hardcore. Brad mentions his target audience is the "core" gamer. You have somehow taken that to mean hardcore gamer. <FONT color=#ff0000>Nope not really tbh but then we are going to nickpick who is casual and who isnt </FONT>When Brad talks about the core gamer, he is talking about those folks who fit the demographic that existed in EQ1 from Velious on back. That is your average folks. You know - the folks that have to get up and go to work in the morning. <FONT color=#ff0000>Who said that i dont need to stand up and work? Most people i know are hardcore, are married, have kids, a good career and will use games like Vanguard to have a good time. </FONT>People who play in the 20 hour a week range. <FONT color=#ff0000>20 hours in the week is more then just casual gameplay but the difference casual/hardcore isnt that easy to see .</FONT>Surely, Vanguard may be a tough nut to crack if you play 5 to 10 hours a week. The game is not being designed to accomodate extreme casual play. However, for those who enjoy gaming as a hobby and play on a regular basis, Vanguard looks to provide a very nice fit. Only time will tell how it all turns out but I know for sure that myself and many others will be checking it out when it is released. <FONT color=#ff0000>Good and i hope you will have fun in it, i know i will. But those that are already screaming a shard in runnyeye is difficult gameplay will rather buy a gun and blow their heads of instead trying to get to their corpse to retrieve their belongings.</FONT><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 PM</span>

Cuz

11-15-2005, 01:54 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR>I rather play vanguard with 70k worldclass players then wow/eq2 with more then 4 mill mental handicapped gamers who dont have a clue what they are doing besisdes trying to get everything the easy way. Vanguard will show the world what true hardcore gaming is about, if Brad can keep his promises. But i bet that vanguard will be a bit higher then just 70k since most hardcore players are following vanguard for years and rather leave their current game for vanguard. If Brad recreates the magic from eq1 up to velious back hardcores from eq1 will jump over too. <BR> <P>Message Edited by ginfress on <SPAN class=date_text>11-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:49 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by ginfress on <SPAN class=date_text>11-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:30 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I doubt that world class players would really enjoy someone who treats people that like "easier" games braindead in there ranks. To me world class players would not only be hardcore, but have tons of class.</DIV>

spa

11-15-2005, 02:13 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000> But those that are already screaming a shard in runnyeye is difficult gameplay will rather buy a gun and blow their heads of instead trying to get to their corpse to retrieve their belongings.</FONT><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by ginfress on <SPAN class=date_text>11-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think the biggest/usual reason why people hate going back down to EQ2 dungeons like Runnyeye to get their shard is because they know they died some where really hard, and they have reduced stats as of the effect of the loss of a spirit shard.</P> <DIV>Atleast in Vanguard you can use horses as your inventory, so you will have different sets of armour with you. You can fight or maybe invis back down to your Vanguard belongings while your character stats remain unaffected.</DIV>

ginfress

11-15-2005, 03:15 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR>I rather play vanguard with 70k worldclass players then wow/eq2 with more then 4 mill mental handicapped gamers who dont have a clue what they are doing besisdes trying to get everything the easy way. Vanguard will show the world what true hardcore gaming is about, if Brad can keep his promises. But i bet that vanguard will be a bit higher then just 70k since most hardcore players are following vanguard for years and rather leave their current game for vanguard. If Brad recreates the magic from eq1 up to velious back hardcores from eq1 will jump over too. <BR> <P>Message Edited by ginfress on <SPAN class=date_text>11-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:49 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by ginfress on <SPAN class=date_text>11-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:30 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I doubt that world class players would really enjoy someone who treats people that like "easier" games braindead in there ranks. To me world class players would not only be hardcore, but have tons of class. <FONT color=#ff0000>Thats ok, am not playing to make you happy so think what you want <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

ginfress

11-15-2005, 03:17 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> spark wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000> But those that are already screaming a shard in runnyeye is difficult gameplay will rather buy a gun and blow their heads of instead trying to get to their corpse to retrieve their belongings.</FONT><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by ginfress on <SPAN class=date_text>11-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think the biggest/usual reason why people hate going back down to EQ2 dungeons like Runnyeye to get their shard is because they know they died some where really hard, and they have reduced stats as of the effect of the loss of a spirit shard. <FONT color=#ff0000>Dying should be very scary not a simple trip to a shop.</FONT></P> <DIV>Atleast in Vanguard you can use horses as your inventory, so you will have different sets of armour with you. You can fight or maybe invis back down to your Vanguard belongings while your character stats remain unaffected. <FONT color=#ff0000>Yup but the poiint still remains, people who go to a shop to buy their shard back arent people who like to play a game where they have a change to not getting their belongings back.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 PM</span>

ValValline

11-15-2005, 03:19 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>spark wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> ginfress wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0000"> But those that are already screaming a shard in runnyeye is difficult gameplay will rather buy a gun and blow their heads of instead trying to get to their corpse to retrieve their belongings.</font></p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class="date_text">11-14-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:17 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>I think the biggest/usual reason why people hate going back down to EQ2 dungeons like Runnyeye to get their shard is because they know they died some where really hard, and they have reduced stats as of the effect of the loss of a spirit shard.</p> <div>Atleast in Vanguard you can use horses as your inventory, so you will have different sets of armour with you. You can fight or maybe invis back down to your Vanguard belongings while your character stats remain unaffected.</div><hr></blockquote> Any game that includes a "shard recovery" (EQ2) or naked corpse runs (EQ1) will result in players too scared to explore, and no one will want to trust their time and effort to random pick-up groups. Players flock to the same zones and areas over and over again, because these types of time sinks discourage exploration and taking chances. Punishing players for exploring, taking a chance on tougher mob encounters, or trusting their play time to strangers is one of the worst aspects of EQ2, and it won't be an incentive for people to flock to Vanguard if/when it comes out. </span><div></div>

spa

11-15-2005, 03:44 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ValValline wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Any game that includes a "shard recovery" (EQ2) or naked corpse runs (EQ1) will result in players too scared to explore, and no one will want to trust their time and effort to random pick-up groups. Players flock to the same zones and areas over and over again, because these types of time sinks discourage exploration and taking chances.<BR><BR>Punishing players for exploring, taking a chance on tougher mob encounters, or trusting their play time to strangers is one of the worst aspects of EQ2, and it won't be an incentive for people to flock to Vanguard if/when it comes out.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So what is your idea of a challenge? and what is the point of a con-level system? Just seems you dont believe in a death penalty, GuildWars does that perfectly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit to add: What would be the point of "chancing" whether or not you can kill a certain mob? When you kill any mob without such a death penalty, you dont have that awesome sense of achievement when you can kill it, because of well... "so what?" - if you cant/couldnt kill it. Sounds like a boring method of gameplay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adventuring and exploring, being scared is awesome - the fear that you could die, but if theres no real death penalty then theres no reason to be scared. "Oh theres a mob there 30 levels higher than me, oh well if i die it doesnt matter..." :smileyindifferent:</DIV><p>Message Edited by spark on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:54 PM</span>

ValValline

11-15-2005, 06:17 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>spark wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> ValValline wrote:<span>Any game that includes a "shard recovery" (EQ2) or naked corpse runs (EQ1) will result in players too scared to explore, and no one will want to trust their time and effort to random pick-up groups. Players flock to the same zones and areas over and over again, because these types of time sinks discourage exploration and taking chances.Punishing players for exploring, taking a chance on tougher mob encounters, or trusting their play time to strangers is one of the worst aspects of EQ2, and it won't be an incentive for people to flock to Vanguard if/when it comes out.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>So what is your idea of a challenge? and what is the point of a con-level system? Just seems you dont believe in a death penalty, GuildWars does that perfectly.</div> <div> </div> <div>Edit to add: What would be the point of "chancing" whether or not you can kill a certain mob? When you kill any mob without such a death penalty, you dont have that awesome sense of achievement when you can kill it, because of well... "so what?" - if you cant/couldnt kill it. Sounds like a boring method of gameplay.</div> <div> </div> <div>Adventuring and exploring, being scared is awesome - the fear that you could die, but if theres no real death penalty then theres no reason to be scared. "Oh theres a mob there 30 levels higher than me, oh well if i die it doesnt matter..." :smileyindifferent:</div><p>Message Edited by spark on <span class="date_text">11-14-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:54 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Death is penalty enough. It slows down your progress, it's a slap to your ego, it requires you to change gears, change tactics, change hunting areas, or to form a group. What I don't believe in is frustrating players and conditioning them to avoid risk and to avoid exploring. If a mob "pwns" you in WoW or GW, you get just as mad and upset with or without a death penalty tacked on. It's just as challenging and rewarding to kill a tough mob as it is to kill one in EQ1/EQ2. The challenge is in the attempt, not in avoiding the death penalty. Making a naked corpse run or playing "shard recovery" doesn't make the challenge any sweeter if/when you beat the mob. Over time it simply conditions you to avoid situations that are not a "sure thing". Death penalties result in players avoiding risk and challenge not embracing it. In EQ1 whole zones and most of the dungeons across all levels went unused, because players were too scared of losing their gear or hard won exp. Players who filled the role of "pullers" on raids would often end the raid with less exp than they started with (even with 96% exp res'es). People spent hours reading spoiler sites looking for the best/safest zones to exp in, or the safest routes through dangerous areas. Pick-up groups were avoided like the plague and you never took one into an unfamiliar zone or dungeon. Timesinks and character setbacks (exp loss, shard loss, exp debt, gear loss, etc) do not build character (pardon the pun) or enrich the playing experience. They force players into a defenssive mode of play, discourage grouping with strangers, and discourage the desire to try something new. Punishing players for exploring, grouping with sub-optimal or bad players, or trying to take on a tough mob, doesn't add challenge to any game. In my opinion death penalties are a crutch used by developers to insert a sense of "danger", when all it really does is frustrate and condition players to avoid risk. Which is the exact opposite of being the "hero" and taking on any challenges that present themselves.</span><div></div>

Ninusar

11-15-2005, 08:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT> <HR> spark wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT> <HR> ValValline wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR><FONT color=#33cc00>Any game that includes a "shard recovery" (EQ2) or naked corpse runs (EQ1) will result in players too scared to explore, and no one will want to trust their time and effort to random pick-up groups. Players flock to the same zones and areas over and over again, because these types of time sinks discourage exploration and taking chances.<BR><BR>Punishing players for exploring, taking a chance on tougher mob encounters, or trusting their play time to strangers is one of the worst aspects of EQ2, and it won't be an incentive for people to flock to Vanguard if/when it comes out.<BR></FONT></SPAN> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>So what is your idea of a challenge? and what is the point of a con-level system? Just seems you dont believe in a death penalty, GuildWars does that perfectly.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>Edit to add: What would be the point of "chancing" whether or not you can kill a certain mob? When you kill any mob without such a death penalty, you dont have that awesome sense of achievement when you can kill it, because of well... "so what?" - if you cant/couldnt kill it. Sounds like a boring method of gameplay.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>Adventuring and exploring, being scared is awesome - the fear that you could die, but if theres no real death penalty then theres no reason to be scared. "Oh theres a mob there 30 levels higher than me, oh well if i die it doesnt matter..." <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif" width=16 border=0></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Message Edited by spark on <SPAN class=date_text>11-14-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:54 PM</SPAN><BR></FONT></P><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>Death is penalty enough. It slows down your progress, it's a slap to your ego, it requires you to change gears, change tactics, change hunting areas, or to form a group.<BR><BR>What I don't believe in is frustrating players and conditioning them to avoid risk and to avoid exploring.<BR><BR>If a mob "pwns" you in WoW or GW, you get just as mad and upset with or without a death penalty tacked on. It's just as challenging and rewarding to kill a tough mob as it is to kill one in EQ1/EQ2. The challenge is in the attempt, not in avoiding the death penalty. Making a naked corpse run or playing "shard recovery" doesn't make the challenge any sweeter if/when you beat the mob. Over time it simply conditions you to avoid situations that are not a "sure thing".<BR><BR>Death penalties result in players avoiding risk and challenge not embracing it.<BR><BR>In EQ1 whole zones and most of the dungeons across all levels went unused, because players were too scared of losing their gear or hard won exp.<BR><BR>Players who filled the role of "pullers" on raids would often end the raid with less exp than they started with (even with 96% exp res'es).<BR><BR>People spent hours reading spoiler sites looking for the best/safest zones to exp in, or the safest routes through dangerous areas.<BR><BR>Pick-up groups were avoided like the plague and you never took one into an unfamiliar zone or dungeon.<BR><BR>Timesinks and character setbacks (exp loss, shard loss, exp debt, gear loss, etc) do not build character (pardon the pun) or enrich the playing experience. They force players into a defenssive mode of play, discourage grouping with strangers, and discourage the desire to try something new. Punishing players for exploring, grouping with sub-optimal or bad players, or trying to take on a tough mob, doesn't add challenge to any game.<BR><BR>In my opinion death penalties are a crutch used by developers to insert a sense of "danger", when all it really does is frustrate and condition players to avoid risk. Which is the exact opposite of being the "hero" and taking on any challenges that present themselves.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00>-------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Im going to have to side with Spark. The "Fear Factor" is something that the game needs. The idea of exploration with no danger involved is a flawed one. Corpse runs are a necesary. If you have nothing to fear that means there is nuthing to risk, which means what ever you accomplish is nothing more than average. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And at a side note... Death at the very least should fluster players... after all they did....die. And a hero isnt somone who just does something hard. anyone can attempt something difficult. A hero is someone who stands up and does whats necesarry when adversities come thier way and they do something in spite of what might happen putting thier fears behind them.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ninusar on <span class=date_text>11-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:16 PM</span>

Hamzil

11-15-2005, 10:15 AM

<P>Well, I remember being scared as a lvl 7 peep running out from Qeynos to Freeport (just for the hll of it).</P> <P>Nek Forest was really scarry and die twice and took agro many times before I could get to Commonlands.</P> <P>Most recently I was scared by the run down deep in SOL E But that was like 5 months ago.</P>

missionarymarr

11-15-2005, 01:21 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ninusar wrote: <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Im going to have to side with Spark. The "Fear Factor" is something that the game needs. The idea of exploration with no danger involved is a flawed one. Corpse runs are a necesary. If you have nothing to fear that means there is nuthing to risk, which means what ever you accomplish is nothing more than average. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And at a side note... Death at the very least should fluster players... after all they did....die. And a hero isnt somone who just does something hard. anyone can attempt something difficult. A hero is someone who stands up and does whats necesarry when adversities come thier way and they do something in spite of what might happen putting thier fears behind them.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Ninusar on <SPAN class=date_text>11-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:16 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think he brings up a good point though which should be discussed. Is the value of a death penalty worth more then the fact without one players will take more risks will be willing to adventure with more players and take on bigger challenges. Right now a lot of people are complaining the game is to easy how much of this is because the death penalty has conditioned you to avoid difficult fights therefore the game is easy because you are not willing to take the risk of harder fights. I think that personally I would much prefer just the xp debt penalty and no loss of stats then losing the stats. I also have no problem with your equiped items taking damage. Yet I think anything that could be done to make players take more challenges and such would be a good thing for the game.</DIV>

Zeroimagination

11-15-2005, 05:55 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> missionarymarr wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ninusar wrote: <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Im going to have to side with Spark. The "Fear Factor" is something that the game needs. The idea of exploration with no danger involved is a flawed one. Corpse runs are a necesary. If you have nothing to fear that means there is nuthing to risk, which means what ever you accomplish is nothing more than average. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And at a side note... Death at the very least should fluster players... after all they did....die. And a hero isnt somone who just does something hard. anyone can attempt something difficult. A hero is someone who stands up and does whats necesarry when adversities come thier way and they do something in spite of what might happen putting thier fears behind them.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Ninusar on <SPAN class=date_text>11-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:16 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think he brings up a good point though which should be discussed. Is the value of a death penalty worth more then the fact without one players will take more risks will be willing to adventure with more players and take on bigger challenges. Right now a lot of people are complaining the game is to easy how much of this is because the death penalty has conditioned you to avoid difficult fights therefore the game is easy because you are not willing to take the risk of harder fights. I think that personally I would much prefer just the xp debt penalty and no loss of stats then losing the stats. I also have no problem with your equiped items taking damage. Yet I think anything that could be done to make players take more challenges and such would be a good thing for the game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Death penalties are good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I only played EQ1 for a little while (*blasphemy!*) it never really got it's hooks into me. But when I did play, I explored all the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most recently before EQ2, I played FFXI. Death penalty was 10% of your current level, but no corpse runs. I explored all the time in there as well. Often I'd stop in my explorations and say "I wonder if I can kill that..." and find out one way or the other. Those were exciting times. Some people will always explore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people will always sit on their duffs in the "safe", "fast" areas as well, even with no death penalty. People play the games for different reasons. And for different challenges. And really, there's no one game that can make everyone happy. If there was, it'd have to be earth sized and have different rulesets on different continents or something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I don't feel the thrill of victory if there's no agony of defeat. Maybe others can. Neither of us is "right" or "better", just different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So with no right or better answer, it's up to the devs to decide who they're going to please.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited for clarity.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Zeroimagination on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:59 AM</span>

ValValline

11-15-2005, 10:23 PM

If the majority of players preferred death penalties and harder game play overall, then WoW and GW wouldn't be as popular as they currently are, and EQ2 wouldn't be changing so rapidly to keep existing and attract new players. The changes made to EQ2 over the past year that are seen as "dumbing down" the game by the hardcore players, in reality are a response to changes in the market. We are currently seeing a rise in the "casual MMORPG", and it will be very interesting to see if a game like Vanguard that caters to the "hardcore" will succeed. In a lot of ways the hardcore players are right. It is much more satisfying to build a character in a more challenging game, but when given the choice human nature will always see the majority of players taking the easier path. Personally I don't have a problem with EQ2's death penalty system, but I know a lot of people who do, and that is why I am arguing against it. My one subscription vs 5 friends (who were hardcore EQ1 players) who prefer WoW speaks volumes don't you think? The challenge is to find the right place to draw the line. I simply don't think EQ2 has drawn that line in the right place to attract and keep casual players, but I am willing to agree to disagree with my fellow posters on this board and the EQ2 devs. val

Unholy_Ang

11-15-2005, 10:46 PM

<DIV>/agree</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the thought of a game where I actually feel like I am part of a community and a world full of players who make up the game. I much prefer that over a game where the developers always seem to want to satisfy those that complain about something that is difficult such as a corpse retrieval (which in eq2 isn't even a corpse, it is a shard - you actually get to <EM>keep</EM> all of your gear so you can fight back to your shard) or even a pathetic camp. The spawn timers in EQ2 were <EM>not</EM> even that long before update #16. I have completed all of ther HQs besides the DoF one, and they were <EM>not</EM> too difficult IMO. Forgive me if I want a <EM>role playing game</EM> to seem <EM>realistic</EM>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ugh... </DIV>

Cuz

11-15-2005, 11:02 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unholy_Anger wrote:<BR> <DIV>/agree</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the thought of a game where I actually feel like I am part of a community and a world full of players who make up the game. I much prefer that over a game where the developers always seem to want to satisfy those that complain about something that is difficult such as a corpse retrieval (which in eq2 isn't even a corpse, it is a shard - you actually get to <EM>keep</EM> all of your gear so you can fight back to your shard) or even a pathetic camp. The spawn timers in EQ2 were <EM>not</EM> even that long before update #16. I have completed all of ther HQs besides the DoF one, and they were <EM>not</EM> too difficult IMO. Forgive me if I want a <EM>role playing game</EM> to seem <EM>realistic</EM>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ugh... </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're right camping wasn't nor will it ever be hard. It's as hard as watching cement dry.</P> <P>3,3+p -> p -> 1,1,4,6+p -> 3,3,6+p+k is hard. For all you VF4 fans out there <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P>

Hamzil

11-16-2005, 08:48 AM

<DIV>As everything there are pros and cons about corpses.</DIV> <DIV>Here's my take on it:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT size=4>Corpses in Everquest1:</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>Pros:</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT size=3>Helped to create the feeling of actual loss of death.</FONT> <EM><FONT size=2>(Immersion)</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><FONT size=3>Helped to create more of a community feeling.</FONT> <EM><FONT size=2>(I once died in Plane of Fear, took 2 hours and 2 groups from the top guild on our server to get my corpse out. It was fun and everyone actually enjoyed the challenge and the fun of training the whole zone so some1 could drag the corpse to the safest possible spot)</FONT></EM></LI></UL> <P><STRONG><FONT size=3>Cons:</FONT></STRONG></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=3>Created too much reliance on healers/rezzers.</FONT> <EM><FONT size=2>(noone wanted to take the death penalty and preferred a rez, however it created a heavy dependency on having a rezzer around)</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>Corpse runs could be long and painful as well.</FONT><EM> (Immersion, but really too much for many people</EM></FONT><FONT size=2><EM>)</EM></FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=3>Could lose level by death if no rez found </FONT><FONT size=2><EM>(Could possibly lock people out of zone access depending on zone)</EM></FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=3>Dragging corpses was buggy and sometimes could lose corpse in bottom of world.</FONT></LI></UL> <P><STRONG><U><FONT size=4>Corpses in Everquest2:</FONT></U></STRONG></P><FONT size=2></FONT> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>Pros:</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT size=3>Corpse/shard retrieval much quicker</FONT><EM> <FONT size=2>(anti-Immersion)</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><FONT size=3>Shards can be retrieved at some zone entrances.</FONT><EM> <FONT size=2>(Makes it easy to get shard back if don't have a group/invisible to get back to shard, for tough zones)</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><FONT size=3>Resurections much quicker. </FONT><FONT size=2><EM>(No need to re-equipt items)</EM></FONT></LI></UL><FONT size=2> <P><STRONG><FONT size=3>Cons:</FONT></STRONG></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=3>Corpse/shard retrieval much quicker.</FONT><EM> <FONT size=2>(This IMHO is anti-immersive and could also be looked on as a bad thing)</FONT></EM></LI> <LI><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>Lack of community feeling and penalty of death.</FONT><EM> (No longer are there the usual corpse retrievals and asking a friend to rez you. Death penalty is rather small.</EM></FONT><FONT size=2><EM>)</EM></FONT></LI></UL> <P>Anyone else got stuff to add?</P></FONT>

Ninusar

11-16-2005, 10:27 AM

<DIV>On the Note of WoW and Guildwars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can not compare WoW and Guildwars to Everquest.</DIV> <DIV>Guildwars is a FREE game which in itself allows for a MASSIVE player base. But you have to realize that the numbers they put out are on copies sold. Not active accounts. Lots of people who bought just to see what it was like and will most likely never touch it again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly WoW is not a normal MMO. It has the backing of a tremendous fan base,Warcraft I, II,and III. The majority of its fan base dont play it because its a MMO they play it because it is the next game developed with the Warcraft name. Becasue of this EQ and EQ2 will never get the support of the majority of thier fan base. The exeption to that is the players who like WoW for its MMO quilities (something it has little of) and want a game that is Geared more towards that ganre of game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Casual MMO player is not flooding the Market place. It is flooding certian games, ones in which apeal to thier previous gameing experiances. EQ does not have this. In order to make a successful game they will need to make a game that apeals to the gamers that search for MMOs. Those players casual and hardcore are looking for an in-detail game with an unmatched immersiveness, and a stong community aspect to boot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont get me wrong there are many non-MMO casual gamers that play EQ/EQ2 as well. And as many of them as there are currently it would be a poor business decision to base you game on thier wants and needs. Not becasue they are less inportant but becasue like most gamers they are constantly buying the new hit titles and going from game to game. Instead the smart thing to do would to be to make a game that satisfies the people who take MMOs more seriously and play them for years and in many cases the duration of the game itself. That is why EQ1 is still around. Not because it went with the wants of the swarms of people who came in after expansion packs, rather they did what they thought would keep people interested and coming back for more. </DIV>

Grubbyc

11-16-2005, 11:42 AM

<P>I applaud anything that makes the heratige quests (or other quests) less tedious. Camping a rare spawn is not my idea of fun, getting my hat handed to me by an Uber Mob that is grey to me and my group isn't fun. That said, I am a casual player, and I have a casual playstyle. I understand that there is a fair portion of the population that is intent on compitition: level as fast as possible, get the best gear possible, be in the highest guild, etc. More power to them and thier prismatic-mega-procing-uber weapons of doom. I don't deny them their bragging rights, or thier hard earned glory.</P> <P>But, this isn't about them, it's about players like me.</P> <P>If a heratige quest is too annoying to complete, I think that is a flaw. I don't mean if it's too hard, or takes too many steps, I said annoying. "These Boots were made for walking" for example, is now a nice heratige quest. You still have to harvest, kill stuff, run around, get help with Bloodtalon etc. but it's an enjoyable quest. The old way, with Bloodtalon hard to find, killing mighty griffins for a couple of hours hoping to get lucky, was not fun for me. I have enough ways to waste time i.e. doing green(grey) quests I won't delete, harvesting, crafting, exploring, talking to random NPCs to see if they give a quest, helping some random person, B.S.ing with friends... I don't think that the heratige quests should be endurance tests, and if I can't get enough help with them, I think they should be able to be completed with a duo or trio once the reward is 15-20 levels out of date.</P> <P>I am against too harsh a death penalty. Why? Because on occasion it's fun for me to say to my guild mates "I wonder if...I can make that jump, we can take that mob, I can sneak past that baddie, there is anything cool in that zone I know nothing about, etc." The death penalty as it is encourages restraint in such activities, but doesn't make it so a character can't indulge on occasion.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Unholy_Ang

11-17-2005, 07:20 PM

<DIV>So basically, you want there to be little or no death penalty so you can wander around dying for kicks and giggles... That, to me, seems totally rediculous. There is a reason for a death penalty. Death is supposed to be a BAD thing, not for fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well who cares, right? Dying should be fun so we can go jump off of cliffs and try to fly. Let's just do away with death altogether, who needs that stuff anyway?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, I understand you casual gamers don't want to try earning anything. I know you don't want to spend any long extent of time out of your lives to really get your fun out of the game, but not everyone thinks and plays the the same way as you. Some people like to earn what they have and get that sense of accomplishment by it. Bragging is not what being a hardcore player is about. I can't speak for all of those core gamers myself, please don't get me wrong. But we do not simply want something to sink our time in. Everyone's view of a good player is different, but some people think that means earning things not having things fed to them. So how is it fair to deny those players what they want? Is it only fair to have everything easy like you want it?</DIV>

Grantr

11-17-2005, 08:48 PM

<P>All I have to say is I agree with this OP 100%. Not only do the handicap quests (that imo were fine in the first place) they have already begun nerfing t6 raid zones making already killable mobs into very easy encounters. Another reason to put doubt in challenge in the end game. Your suppose to go from t5 to t6 raids, not go from draydek and angler to kdal. Then rewind and go from lockjaw and dragons (yes they are that easy) to Masters prism, rewinding tier raid mobs is just unacceptable as it scales it should get harder not vice versa.</P> <P>They made harvesting, which took some time. Not a hell of alot of time but yeah you had to work on it to capping from 1skill in all forms to 300 now it takes a matter of a few hours. Also the whole shard vendor takes any risk from any zone anywhere in any place in the whole game. You die cant get your shard well no reason for CR, time to go suck on moms [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and buy my shard back.</P> <P>Another point is now you can harvest and get a breastplate that is not equal but better then that of what most people used to dream of having (ie shimmer star bp, cryptic metalic ect ect). Total bs. But thats done and over with noob1 harvester is equal with hardcore of awesome tank1 the day the expansion hit. Tell me that isnt dumbing the game down. Every subclass is equal and that in some respect is communism, and guess what it never worked in the end it fails and crashes after a overthrow of power (vanguard *sneeze).</P> <P>Now some might say we like games easy it makes the game more "fun". Where is the "fun" in being handed everything on a silver plate. I think they gave casual players too much "fun" from the previous changes that made them so spoiled that they begged for more. Which in return they got and now core players are stuck with the scraps of a good machine that could have been well oiled and started to rust, and its only getting rustier. Core players generaly play games much more and longer then the casuals. So its questionable who enjoys the game more, those who play it or those who want everything to be more easy.</P> <P>it is obvious that soe is having problems due to blizzard and wow so they have to cater to a "we want easy" player base, and it makes me sick that I have to wait a year to play a game that has challenge(vanguard *cough). But thats how the game goes they threw the baby out of the bath water in the words of the great Brad. Thats where EQ2 went wrong there is no vision, no direction, and if there is one theres to many of them that its a bipolar one.</P> <P>(edit because I forgot to add bells are the dumbest thing I can think of. Travel is and always was a big part of MMO's and EQ2 trashed that to hell and back.)</P> <P>Message Edited by Grantron on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:51 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Grantron on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 AM</span>

Cuz

11-17-2005, 08:49 PM

<P>No from what I can tell being condescending is enough huh?</P> <P>Man I can't believe that of all you "hardcore" players not one of you plays VF...</P>

beylanu

11-17-2005, 09:19 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grantron wrote:<BR> <P>it makes me sick that I have to <STRONG>wait</STRONG> a year to play a game that has challenge</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>and you're defending camping?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Unholy_Ang

11-17-2005, 10:12 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grantron wrote:<BR> <P>All I have to say is I agree with this OP 100%. Not only do the handicap quests (that imo were fine in the first place) they have already begun nerfing t6 raid zones making already killable mobs into very easy encounters. Another reason to put doubt in challenge in the end game. Your suppose to go from t5 to t6 raids, not go from draydek and angler to kdal. Then rewind and go from lockjaw and dragons (yes they are that easy) to Masters prism, rewinding tier raid mobs is just unacceptable as it scales it should get harder not vice versa.</P> <P>They made harvesting, which took some time. Not a hell of alot of time but yeah you had to work on it to capping from 1skill in all forms to 300 now it takes a matter of a few hours. Also the whole shard vendor takes any risk from any zone anywhere in any place in the whole game. You die cant get your shard well no reason for CR, time to go suck on moms [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and buy my shard back.</P> <P>Another point is now you can harvest and get a breastplate that is not equal but better then that of what most people used to dream of having (ie shimmer star bp, cryptic metalic ect ect). Total bs. But thats done and over with noob1 harvester is equal with hardcore of awesome tank1 the day the expansion hit. Tell me that isnt dumbing the game down. Every subclass is equal and that in some respect is communism, and guess what it never worked in the end it fails and crashes after a overthrow of power (vanguard *sneeze).</P> <P>Now some might say we like games easy it makes the game more "fun". Where is the "fun" in being handed everything on a silver plate. I think they gave casual players too much "fun" from the previous changes that made them so spoiled that they begged for more. Which in return they got and now core players are stuck with the scraps of a good machine that could have been well oiled and started to rust, and its only getting rustier. Core players generaly play games much more and longer then the casuals. So its questionable who enjoys the game more, those who play it or those who want everything to be more easy.</P> <P>it is obvious that soe is having problems due to blizzard and wow so they have to cater to a "we want easy" player base, and it makes me sick that I have to wait a year to play a game that has challenge(vanguard *cough). But thats how the game goes they threw the baby out of the bath water in the words of the great Brad. Thats where EQ2 went wrong there is no vision, no direction, and if there is one theres to many of them that its a bipolar one.</P> <P>(edit because I forgot to add bells are the dumbest thing I can think of. Travel is and always was a big part of MMO's and EQ2 trashed that to hell and back.)</P> <P>Message Edited by Grantron on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:51 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Grantron on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with you ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! The only posts i have read against this are either going off topic or twisting words or whining and restating the same point that we are arguing against, the point that this game should cater to them and their limited playing time and/or ability. If people do not want immersion or a realistic game in which they must work hard and LONG to obtain something of value and status, then go play a boardgame. Well, it doesn't matter to me anymore. SOE won't listen to our pleads to keep the difficulty of the game constant, so who cares.

ValValline

11-17-2005, 10:38 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Unholy_Anger wrote: <div> </div> <div>Seriously, I understand you casual gamers don't want to try earning anything. I know you don't want to spend any long extent of time out of your lives to really get your fun out of the game, but not everyone thinks and plays the the same way as you. Some people like to earn what they have and get that sense of accomplishment by it. Bragging is not what being a hardcore player is about. I can't speak for all of those core gamers myself, please don't get me wrong. But we do not simply want something to sink our time in. Everyone's view of a good player is different, but some people think that means earning things not having things fed to them. So how is it fair to deny those players what they want? Is it only fair to have everything easy like you want it?</div><hr></blockquote>..sarcasm... Do you upgrade your gear/spells/skills? If you do, then you are truly cheating yourself out of truly "earning" and "accomplishing" in EQ2, because by upgrading you are taking the easier path. You can't call yourself "hardcore", if you don't hit level 60 with nothing more than what you take with you from the Isle of Refuge. ...sarcasm... Everyone takes the easier path in one way or another. The lines of distinction people draw are of their own making. The only fundamental difference between hardcore and casual players is the amount of time spent playing the game. There is very little a hardcore player can accomplish playing 24/7 that a casual player can't playing 5-10 hours a week given enough time. I am sure the first person to hit level 50 in EQ1 remembers it well, but I doubt many if any ex-EQ1 players still remember or care. The bottom line is, if you are satisfied with what you feel you have "earned" and "accomplished" in EQ2 (or any other game) then great! But it doesn't make you a better player than anyone else, and it doesn't give you the right to look down upon people who spend less time in front of their PC than you. EQ2 is intended for a very broad audience, and the devs will make changes that appeal to both the hardcore and the casual players. </span><span>You really should take your own advice and realize that <font color="#cc0033">not everyone thinks or plays the same way as you do</font>. </span> <div></div>

KBern

11-18-2005, 12:06 AM

<P>If some of you want the "difficulty" put back in, there is an easy solution for you.</P> <P>Each time you log in....play and do whatever you want for 30 mins...but then park yourself in a spot...and wait 3 hours in game doing nothing....then play some more for 30 mins or so, but then stop...and sit and stare at a random spot for 4 more hours.</P> <P>There, you have your rough challenge of camping back to slow down your pace and let you feel hardcore.</P> <P>Have fun with your "challenge".</P>

ginfress

11-18-2005, 12:58 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>If some of you want the "difficulty" put back in, there is an easy solution for you.</P> <P>Each time you log in....play and do whatever you want for 30 mins...but then park yourself in a spot...and wait 3 hours in game doing nothing....then play some more for 30 mins or so, but then stop...and sit and stare at a random spot for 4 more hours.</P> <P>There, you have your rough challenge of camping back to slow down your pace and let you feel hardcore.</P> <P>Have fun with your "challenge".</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>See here the prime example of a braindead gamer. :smileyvery-happy:

Poetelia

11-18-2005, 01:10 AM

<DIV>ValValline wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"The bottom line is, if you are satisfied with what you feel you have "earned" and "accomplished" in EQ2 (or any other game) then great! But it doesn't make you a better player than anyone else, and it doesn't give you the right to look down upon people who spend less time in front of their PC than you."</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wrong ValValline. Or at least wrong according to their point of view. For some time Ive been arguing the whole casual-hardcore concepts. Those 2 words usually mean different things for different people.</DIV> <DIV>Ive been playing EQ1 since almost the very beginning. I have played every expansion, earned epics, raided every mob. Ive been playing EQ2 also from week after launch. I sincerely doubt that any of those so called "hardcore" can boast more EQ hours than me all along the years. So, instead of time on line, if I pursue the topic I will be called a casual because I am not as fond of raiding as I should (lol, I was there since we had to raid Vox and Naggy every week to try to get the stupid scales for epic) or because I agree that camping Bloodtalon for 12 hours or The creator for 14 (yes, thats what it took me back in the day) is absurd.</DIV> <DIV>There are not really hardcores or really casuals, or more properly, this argument is not about that... The argument, once again, is between pure PvE players and PvP players that use the environment to keep score. <DIV>You say "<EM>The bottom line is, if you are satisfied with what you feel you have "earned" and "accomplished" in EQ2 (or any other game) then great!" </EM></DIV> <DIV>For a true PvE you are, of course, right. As long as youre content with yourself, with your achievements and with your own fun in game, everything should be perfect. `But a lot of people play this game from a competitive point of view. They are not content just having fun... they have to feel and to make feel the rest, they are better, they are more worthy, they have better loot, they have won... Thats way they dont like any change that, from their point of view, makes the game easier.</DIV></DIV> <DIV>Just to put an example of a HQ everyone knows and can understand: everyday I walk into my room and I see ghoulbane on the wall, I only think I put a lot of time on it, I spent a stupid amount of time camping the Creator and, all in all, I had a lot of fun on that HQ. I cant care less if anyone else has also a ghoulbane or if they had a better or worse time getting it. I hope they did have fun and if SoE now decides they are going to cut the stupid 14 hours of camping the Creator, I rejoice. They will have the same fun I did have and will be able to spend those 14 hours having more. I dont measure my satisfaction with the game in terms of I have-you dont have, I achieved-you didnt achieve, I was here-you werent there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I must say, tho, that I respect very much people who play this game from the competitive point of view. They have their right to defend their concept of fun and the way they want to play the game, the same we all do. Its just that some of them are too fond of that hardcore-superiority bash, but hey, thats also part of their competitive charming personality... no wonder most are male... we all know male are always children <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, its not about casual/hardcore. Its more about PvE-PvP using environment as tally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And btw, I have been always very skeptic about big companies puting their money into charities, subsidizing a few people so they have fun. Somehow I think big companies have this strange urge to make money catering to big numbers of people... but who knows? Maybe Microsoft are going philantropic and Vanguard will be just for the elite of the elite.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poetelia Roseknight</DIV> <DIV>Paladin of Qeynos</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

KBern

11-18-2005, 01:34 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>If some of you want the "difficulty" put back in, there is an easy solution for you.</P> <P>Each time you log in....play and do whatever you want for 30 mins...but then park yourself in a spot...and wait 3 hours in game doing nothing....then play some more for 30 mins or so, but then stop...and sit and stare at a random spot for 4 more hours.</P> <P>There, you have your rough challenge of camping back to slow down your pace and let you feel hardcore.</P> <P>Have fun with your "challenge".</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>See here the prime example of a braindead gamer. :smileyvery-happy: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes you are, and thank you for admitting it. It is the first step of overcoming any problem you may have.<BR>

Cuz

11-18-2005, 01:34 AM

Very very good post Poetelia.

ginfress

11-18-2005, 02:43 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>If some of you want the "difficulty" put back in, there is an easy solution for you.</P> <P>Each time you log in....play and do whatever you want for 30 mins...but then park yourself in a spot...and wait 3 hours in game doing nothing....then play some more for 30 mins or so, but then stop...and sit and stare at a random spot for 4 more hours.</P> <P>There, you have your rough challenge of camping back to slow down your pace and let you feel hardcore.</P> <P>Have fun with your "challenge".</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>See here the prime example of a braindead gamer. :smileyvery-happy: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes you are, and thank you for admitting it. It is the first step of overcoming any problem you may have. <FONT color=#ff0000>The only problem i have each day is sharing this world with morons like you.</FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 PM</span>

ginfress

11-18-2005, 03:01 AM

<FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poetelia wrote:<BR> <DIV>ValValline wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"The bottom line is, if you are satisfied with what you feel you have "earned" and "accomplished" in EQ2 (or any other game) then great! But it doesn't make you a better player than anyone else, and it doesn't give you the right to look down upon people who spend less time in front of their PC than you."</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wrong ValValline. Or at least wrong according to their point of view. For some time Ive been arguing the whole casual-hardcore concepts. Those 2 words usually mean different things for different people.</DIV> <DIV>Ive been playing EQ1 since almost the very beginning. I have played every expansion, earned epics, raided every mob. Ive been playing EQ2 also from week after launch. I sincerely doubt that any of those so called "hardcore" can boast more EQ hours than me all along the years. So, instead of time on line, if I pursue the topic I will be called a casual because I am not as fond of raiding as I should (lol, I was there since we had to raid Vox and Naggy every week to try to get the stupid scales for epic) or because I agree that camping Bloodtalon for 12 hours or The creator for 14 (yes, thats what it took me back in the day) is absurd. <FONT color=#ff0000>Indeed it is but since they tuned down camping they should make mobs for heritage at least epic x2. But that doesnt fit in the mind of the current people trying to play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT>There are not really hardcores or really casuals, or more properly, this argument is not about that... The argument, once again, is between pure PvE players and PvP players that use the environment to keep score. <FONT color=#ff0000>I hate PvP from the bottom of my heart. Watching the news each day shows me enough true PvP.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV>You say "<EM>The bottom line is, if you are satisfied with what you feel you have "earned" and "accomplished" in EQ2 (or any other game) then great!" </EM></DIV> <DIV>For a true PvE you are, of course, right. As long as youre content with yourself, with your achievements and with your own fun in game, everything should be perfect. `But a lot of people play this game from a competitive point of view. They are not content just having fun... they have to feel and to make feel the rest, they are better, they are more worthy, they have better loot, they have won... Thats way they dont like any change that, from their point of view, makes the game easier. <FONT color=#ff0000>Competition is good, in this game everybody gets the same stuff, only difference might be raid loot so their isnt any competion left besides playing pokemon.. Now i dont mind it in eq2 since its a casual game and i knew that when i started. But i expect Brad to put it back into his game.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV>Just to put an example of a HQ everyone knows and can understand: everyday I walk into my room and I see ghoulbane on the wall, I only think I put a lot of time on it, I spent a stupid amount of time camping the Creator and, all in all, I had a lot of fun on that HQ. I cant care less if anyone else has also a ghoulbane or if they had a better or worse time getting it. I hope they did have fun and if SoE now decides they are going to cut the stupid 14 hours of camping the Creator, I rejoice. They will have the same fun I did have and will be able to spend those 14 hours having more. I dont measure my satisfaction with the game in terms of I have-you dont have, I achieved-you didnt achieve, I was here-you werent there. <FONT color=#ff0000>True for this game. And if you only think about the time you spended when seeying an item you maybe should stop playing an mmorpg. Again this game is made for the gamer with little time so if they want to cheapen their game and think its good so be it. </FONT></DIV> <DIV>I must say, tho, that I respect very much people who play this game from the competitive point of view. They have their right to defend their concept of fun and the way they want to play the game, the same we all do. Its just that some of them are too fond of that hardcore-superiority bash, but hey, thats also part of their competitive charming personality... no wonder most are male... we all know male are always children <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <FONT color=#ff0000>Which makes me think you're female, no wonder.....</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, its not about casual/hardcore. Its more about PvE-PvP using environment as tally. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And btw, I have been always very skeptic about big companies puting their money into charities, subsidizing a few people so they have fun. Somehow I think big companies have this strange urge to make money catering to big numbers of people... but who knows? Maybe Microsoft are going philantropic and Vanguard will be just for the elite of the elite.<FONT color=#ff0000> Nice assumptions from your side, definatly not watching the vanguard boards, but thats ok we dont need gamers like you in our game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poetelia Roseknight</DIV> <DIV>Paladin of Qeynos</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

spa

11-18-2005, 03:47 AM

<DIV>Regarding playstyles and camping, some people seem to think camping is how hardcore players look upon as a challenge, but it isnt at all. Camping is dead boring, for everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alot of people are saying Vanguard will be the hardcore players game, while some people say its for both casual and hardcore. In Vanguard <STRONG>there wont be any camping for quest mobs</STRONG>, that doesnt meen its a casual players game either. The quests will be more challenging than EQ2 - i suppose considering there wont be any camping, if not then the quests will be the same ole pizzaboy job efforts that we look upon as fun in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and before someone asks it - how do you know for sure there wont be any camping; quest related mobs / ring events in Vanguard will be triggered as your group gets near, and only your group can see and/or attack it.</DIV> <DIV>Btw a seamless world owns :smileyhappy:</DIV>

Cuz

11-18-2005, 03:49 AM

EDIT: Nevermind, I realised that I just flat out don't like "MMO hardcore" players.<p>Message Edited by Jenoy on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:52 PM</span>

spa

11-18-2005, 03:57 AM

<DIV>The more time a player devotes to the game, the more experiance he learns about it. It would be unlogical for a person which doesnt devote as much time to it to be better, generally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: Nothing wrong with hardcore players, keeps people off the street from getting into trouble, in some way or another.</DIV><p>Message Edited by spark on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:04 PM</span>

beylanu

11-18-2005, 04:18 AM

<FONT color=#ffcc00>Comments in orange.</FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> spark wrote:<BR> <DIV>Regarding playstyles and camping, some people seem to think camping is how hardcore players look upon as a challenge, but it isnt at all. Camping is dead boring, for everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Absolutely agree. It's one of the most non-innovative ways to implement challenge.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alot of people are saying Vanguard will be the hardcore players game, while some people say its for both casual and hardcore. In Vanguard <STRONG>there wont be any camping for quest mobs</STRONG>, that doesnt meen its a casual players game either. The quests will be more challenging than EQ2 - i suppose considering there wont be any camping, if not then the quests will be the same ole pizzaboy job efforts that we look upon as fun in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>I admit I have not followed the VG boards as much as others. However, any promises that they make before release...well I can only say I ~hope~ they stick to this promise. We'll see though. I'm not holding my breath. EQ2 also made alot of promises. They kinda fell flat on alot of them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and before someone asks it - how do you know for sure there wont be any camping; quest related mobs / ring events in Vanguard will be triggered as your group gets near, and only your group can see and/or attack it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>You really really believe they will hold to this? I look forward to that. And I hope they're [Removed for Content] HARD ring events. I hope they have mobs that expel higher level folks from your group. I hope some autoadjust to your level. I hope some evac at low health and then you have to hunt them down before they recuperate. I hope some nameds spawn random helper mobs that force a group to adjust tactics, in real time. I hope some are immune to any normal attacks, forcing groups to employ stuff like HO's, or whatever system VG has, in order to actually harm the mobs. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>I look forward to challenging encounters that aren't about making you sit on your behinds for 3hrs in order to see them. If it takes 3 nights for me to figure out the correct tactics(because the mob keeps whipping my butt), then so be it. I welcome that. As long as I can solve the challenge using my mind and some creative thinking, instead of the "lowest common denominator" challenge of waiting.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw a seamless world owns :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>You mean no zones? Zones don't bother me as much, as long as the content inside of them are interesting. But I can live with no zones as well. </FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Overall I will be happy when game developers come up with more creative ways to make quests challenging without the same ole same ole...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>- kill PH's for rare spawn</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>- timed spawns that also despawn</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>- kill 1000 mobs etc..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Once they stop thinking that the above are acceptable ways to implement challenge, I believe that they open themselves up to newer ideas. What is that old adage? If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail.</FONT></DIV>

spa

11-18-2005, 05:05 AM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> beylanu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>spark wrote: <DIV>and before someone asks it - how do you know for sure there wont be any camping; quest related mobs / ring events in Vanguard will be triggered as your group gets near, and only your group can see and/or attack it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>*1) You really really believe they will hold to this? *2) I look forward to that. And I hope they're [Removed for Content] HARD ring events. I hope they have mobs that expel higher level folks from your group. I hope some autoadjust to your level. I hope some evac at low health and then you have to hunt them down before they recuperate. I hope some nameds spawn random helper mobs that force a group to adjust tactics, in real time. I hope some are immune to any normal attacks, forcing groups to employ stuff like HO's, or whatever system VG has, in order to actually harm the mobs. </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>1) Yea, they did it with the Playstation2 version of EQ1... EQOA (the dumbed down version of EQ). All quest related mobs spawned as you got near them, apart from the epic quests - of that game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) I really love what you say there, you should sign up to Vanguard forums and hope you can inspire Brad with those ideas. He reads the forums and replies often, a bit like Moorgard on these forums but maybe a lil more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding seamless and zoned environments. My first MMOG was a seamless world, a big part of the picture of why i enjoyed playing the game was that it made a great sense of immersion of being able to look somewhere and actually go there, it gave a great sense of being in a living breathing virtual world. Exploring and adventuring felt real, you could get completely lost and get scared - the more you wonder off into the wilderness seeing mobs get higher and higher level, ending up with no where to run, you die but its great fun lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then i played EQ2 - all zoned, every zone in comparison seemed so dam small, literally. Even the 2 cities, despite the very nice detailed graphical scenery, but still seemed small once you had walked along every path/street of a city zone. Dungeons are an ok size. Instanced heroic zones, seemed a great idea at first, but later just made me think how small the world seems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I came across an article a couple of weeks ago, someone linked it on the Vanguard forums. It just seemed too true to me:</DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT size=2>Instancing looks very appealing on the face of it: groups of friends can play together without interference in relative tranquility. What's not to love?<BR>The thing is, this is not what virtual worlds are about. How can you have any impact on a world if you're only using it as a portal to a first-person shooter? How do you interact with people if they're battened down in an inaccessible pocket universe? Where's the sense of achievement, of making a difference, of being someone?<BR>Most players don't see it that way, though.</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.mmorpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=1172&sid=107b3ba5ee4c8cee0ec0b8194abbc901" target=_blank>http://www.mmorpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=1172&sid=107b3ba5ee4c8cee0ec0b8194abbc901</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT:</DIV> <DIV>A really good read regarding instancing. A new system that EQ2 doesnt have:<BR><A href="http://vanguard.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=44" target=_blank>http://vanguard.tentonhammer.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=44</A></DIV><p>Message Edited by spark on <span class=date_text>11-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:13 PM</span>

Prufro

11-18-2005, 08:12 AM

To add to the argument of the title of the thread, here's some lovely updates coming in LU17: <b>Quests</b> - There is no longer a delay between the steps involved in the El'khazi's Carpet quest series. - The reward for the El'khazi's Carpet quest series has been increased in speed. <b>Zones and Population</b> - Travel carpet locations no longer require you to own a carpet to use them. So, it's now easier to complete the carpet quest as you can do it in one night instead of 4, the carpet is now faster than before, and now there's no benefit to having it except to get a free mount. I loved seeing those ghost carpets knowing that once i got my carpet i was going to be able to use them. It was my incentive to do the quest, i just haven't found the time yet. I don't care about a mount, i wanted an item that was more unique than this. <div></div>

Kordran

11-18-2005, 08:59 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> beylanu wrote:<BR> <P></P>If you really want challenge, make named mobs(the ones needed for the HQ's) smart! Here's an idea:<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If you do that, then you also need to make those heritage quest rewards actually worth something to hang on to (for example, have it scale up as the player levels). The reward needs to match the risk; right now, the "balance" seems to be matching the reward to the amount of tedium involved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Kordran

11-18-2005, 09:13 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Just some quotes from Brad and then tell me the niche thing again. Vanguard wont be for the casual gamer that started to play MMORPG's like wow/eq2, they will leave most likely furstrated by the difficulty level and the vision thats working in the game.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And the point you're missing is that Microsoft doesn't go into a market to establish a "niche". They're not backing the project because of some altruistic desire to advance the MMORPG genre. They are in it for one reason, and one reason alone: money. And the amount of money that one makes depends on the fee and the number of active subscribers. So, either Vanguard needs to appeal to the masses (ie: the casual gamers) or they're going to be charging $50/month.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But if you think, for one minute, that Microsoft is going to be satisfied with a game that has 40-50,000 "hardcore" gamers paying $15/month, you are misinformed. What Microsoft wants to see most is <EM>growth</EM> in revenue. It's okay if it doesn't launch with the kind of subscriber base that EQ or WoW has. But if they don't see steady, measurable growth in subscriptions then I guarantee you, it will end up on the chopping block. It's just the way that they work. The problem is, niche markets don't necessarily grow quickly, and adoption tends to stabilize early in a product's lifecycle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me summarize for you: While you may be overjoyed at the concept that the casual gamers will be excluded and there will be a game strictly for you "hardcore" players, the bean counters at Microsoft will not be overjoyed -- and Microsoft has no qualms about dumping what they perceive as dead weight, trust me.</DIV>

ginfress

11-18-2005, 11:26 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kordran wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Just some quotes from Brad and then tell me the niche thing again. Vanguard wont be for the casual gamer that started to play MMORPG's like wow/eq2, they will leave most likely furstrated by the difficulty level and the vision thats working in the game.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And the point you're missing is that Microsoft doesn't go into a market to establish a "niche". They're not backing the project because of some altruistic desire to advance the MMORPG genre. They are in it for one reason, and one reason alone: money. And the amount of money that one makes depends on the fee and the number of active subscribers. So, either Vanguard needs to appeal to the masses (ie: the casual gamers) or they're going to be charging $50/month. <FONT color=#ff0000>My friends and I played on the legends server in eq, we dont mind paying big time if it means we get something exclusive. Matter of fact even when i had to pay 99,95 each month and have a game without those people i have to face each day now while gaming i would pay it blindly. Money rules remember. Ooh wait i like to play a game hardcore so i cant have a job, wife,kids and live in my mums basement......</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But if you think, for one minute, that Microsoft is going to be satisfied with a game that has 40-50,000 "hardcore" gamers paying $15/month, you are misinformed. What Microsoft wants to see most is <EM>growth</EM> in revenue. It's okay if it doesn't launch with the kind of subscriber base that EQ or WoW has. But if they don't see steady, measurable growth in subscriptions then I guarantee you, it will end up on the chopping block. It's just the way that they work. The problem is, niche markets don't necessarily grow quickly, and adoption tends to stabilize early in a product's lifecycle. <FONT color=#ff0000>They wont, ac1 was once microsoft too and is still alive and well. Maybe not as big as the rest of the current titles but its still alive and somehow fun too. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me summarize for you: While you may be overjoyed at the concept that the casual gamers will be excluded and there will be a game strictly for you "hardcore" players, the bean counters at Microsoft will not be overjoyed -- and Microsoft has no qualms about dumping what they perceive as dead weight, trust me. <FONT color=#ff0000>Indeed microsoft is worse then $medley and his company. I dont trust them at all, my trust lies with Brad who knows more about gaming then Scott Harmann ever will do. If microsoft changes the game into a new eq2 or wow to bad for them i wont die without having an mmorpg game to play. There is more in this world then gaming alone.</FONT> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:28 AM</span>

missionarymarr

11-18-2005, 01:26 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Unholy_Anger wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grantron wrote:<BR> <P>All I have to say is I agree with this OP 100%. Not only do the handicap quests (that imo were fine in the first place) they have already begun nerfing t6 raid zones making already killable mobs into very easy encounters. Another reason to put doubt in challenge in the end game. Your suppose to go from t5 to t6 raids, not go from draydek and angler to kdal. Then rewind and go from lockjaw and dragons (yes they are that easy) to Masters prism, rewinding tier raid mobs is just unacceptable as it scales it should get harder not vice versa.</P> <P>They made harvesting, which took some time. Not a hell of alot of time but yeah you had to work on it to capping from 1skill in all forms to 300 now it takes a matter of a few hours. Also the whole shard vendor takes any risk from any zone anywhere in any place in the whole game. You die cant get your shard well no reason for CR, time to go suck on moms [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and buy my shard back.</P> <P>Another point is now you can harvest and get a breastplate that is not equal but better then that of what most people used to dream of having (ie shimmer star bp, cryptic metalic ect ect). Total bs. But thats done and over with noob1 harvester is equal with hardcore of awesome tank1 the day the expansion hit. Tell me that isnt dumbing the game down. Every subclass is equal and that in some respect is communism, and guess what it never worked in the end it fails and crashes after a overthrow of power (vanguard *sneeze).</P> <P>Now some might say we like games easy it makes the game more "fun". Where is the "fun" in being handed everything on a silver plate. I think they gave casual players too much "fun" from the previous changes that made them so spoiled that they begged for more. Which in return they got and now core players are stuck with the scraps of a good machine that could have been well oiled and started to rust, and its only getting rustier. Core players generaly play games much more and longer then the casuals. So its questionable who enjoys the game more, those who play it or those who want everything to be more easy.</P> <P>it is obvious that soe is having problems due to blizzard and wow so they have to cater to a "we want easy" player base, and it makes me sick that I have to wait a year to play a game that has challenge(vanguard *cough). But thats how the game goes they threw the baby out of the bath water in the words of the great Brad. Thats where EQ2 went wrong there is no vision, no direction, and if there is one theres to many of them that its a bipolar one.</P> <P>(edit because I forgot to add bells are the dumbest thing I can think of. Travel is and always was a big part of MMO's and EQ2 trashed that to hell and back.)</P> <P>Message Edited by Grantron on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:51 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Grantron on <SPAN class=date_text>11-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree with you ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! The only posts i have read against this are either going off topic or twisting words or whining and restating the same point that we are arguing against, the point that this game should cater to them and their limited playing time and/or ability. If people do not want immersion or a realistic game in which they must work hard and LONG to obtain something of value and status, then go play a boardgame. Well, it doesn't matter to me anymore. SOE won't listen to our pleads to keep the difficulty of the game constant, so who cares.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You know what how many times do people have to post here in this thread long camp times do not make things challenging just boring. Finally this game should be balanced around players in Normal Handcrafted Armor and Adept 1 Spells and arts. Anyone who is using better equipment and spells should be having an easy time. That said I have no problem with them making the game challenging but this thread has nothing to do with the game being to easy or not. It has to do with the simple fact that sitting around waiting for a spawn is boring. They need to get rid of all the camps and increase the amount of steps you need to do if they really feel they need to make these quests that long. <BR></P>

missionarymarr

11-18-2005, 01:35 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kordran wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Just some quotes from Brad and then tell me the niche thing again. Vanguard wont be for the casual gamer that started to play MMORPG's like wow/eq2, they will leave most likely furstrated by the difficulty level and the vision thats working in the game.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And the point you're missing is that Microsoft doesn't go into a market to establish a "niche". They're not backing the project because of some altruistic desire to advance the MMORPG genre. They are in it for one reason, and one reason alone: money. And the amount of money that one makes depends on the fee and the number of active subscribers. So, either Vanguard needs to appeal to the masses (ie: the casual gamers) or they're going to be charging $50/month. <FONT color=#ff0000>My friends and I played on the legends server in eq, we dont mind paying big time if it means we get something exclusive. Matter of fact even when i had to pay 99,95 each month and have a game without those people i have to face each day now while gaming i would pay it blindly. Money rules remember. Ooh wait i like to play a game hardcore so i cant have a job, wife,kids and live in my mums basement......</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But if you think, for one minute, that Microsoft is going to be satisfied with a game that has 40-50,000 "hardcore" gamers paying $15/month, you are misinformed. What Microsoft wants to see most is <EM>growth</EM> in revenue. It's okay if it doesn't launch with the kind of subscriber base that EQ or WoW has. But if they don't see steady, measurable growth in subscriptions then I guarantee you, it will end up on the chopping block. It's just the way that they work. The problem is, niche markets don't necessarily grow quickly, and adoption tends to stabilize early in a product's lifecycle. <FONT color=#ff0000>They wont, ac1 was once microsoft too and is still alive and well. Maybe not as big as the rest of the current titles but its still alive and somehow fun too. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes and why is AC1 still alive today has nothing to do with Microsoft. Instead the DEVs bought it back from Microsoft. I am pretty sure if the Devs couldn't afford to do that then it would be dead and gone. Especially since Microsoft was willing to sell it. The same thing is likely for Vanguard unless it does really well.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>Edit: Thread locked for going quite off topic for these boards.</FONT></STRONG></DIV><p>Message Edited by Moorgard on <span class=date_text>11-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:49 AM</span>