Could we please get some improvements to the HO system and perhaps more of them?

[Kulharr]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I played awhile back as a Shadow Knight and from very low lvl to about lvl 30, when I quit, I never learned a new heroic opportunity, regardless of my weapon I always only could use Sky Cleave and Crushing Anvil...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they haven't by now they should really make more heroic opportunities, perhaps based on the weapon type you use similar to FFXI's chill chain system... As that system certainly seems to have influenced the implementation of Heroic Opportunities... Too bad it sucks in comparison to the depth and implementation of FFXI's skill chain system.   Heroic Opportunities were very lacking back then and I'm not sure if anything has been done to improve or add em...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think weapon type influencing heroic opportunties would help to add more originalty in your character's template... </DIV></DIV></DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kulharrin wrote:<div> <div> <div>I played awhile back as a Shadow Knight and from very low lvl to about lvl 30, when I quit, I never learned a new heroic opportunity, regardless of my weapon I always only could use Sky Cleave and Crushing Anvil...</div> <div> </div> <div>If they haven't by now they should really make more heroic opportunities, perhaps based on the weapon type you use similar to FFXI's chill chain system... As that system certainly seems to have influenced the implementation of Heroic Opportunities... Too bad it sucks in comparison to the depth and implementation of FFXI's skill chain system.   Heroic Opportunities were very lacking back then and I'm not sure if anything has been done to improve or add em...</div> <div> </div> <div>I think weapon type influencing heroic opportunties would help to add more originalty in your character's template... </div></div></div><hr></blockquote> Heroic Opportunities are really a group thing; solo ones are just sort of a bonus, as it were.  When you get a full six-player, four-archetype group -- or any multi-class group that has a scout in it -- they can get pretty fun.  We've pulled off some complicated ones in groups and on raids and stuff, and those are somewhat satisfying.  Well they are to me at least, since the "coin" icon is the only thing I contribute to a group besides damage. That said, some variety in solo and duo HOs would be nice to see.  Man am I bored with Swindler's Luck.</span><div></div>

[Kyuven]

<P>there are 6 circles on the HO wheel</P> <P>largest one uses 4</P> <P>nuff said</P>

[Ydiss]

<P>I'd actually prefer less variety of each HO, remove the randomness entirely. Then replace it with an evolving HO that grows with you as you level up.</P> <P>Yeh, the HO's fun. We used to use it all the time and couldn't wait to get into 4-6 player groups to try out the 4-way HO. We mastered it, used it loads, finally got the uber rare high damage one (yay, I happened to be the scout too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) and then we quickly got bored of it.</P> <P>It's nice to build up all the buffs and it can add to the fun but it's not as fun in a group of 3 or 2. In fact, duo HOs are downright awful in most cases. Whenever are they going to fix Divine Nobility? What an absolutely rubbish effect that is and it's far too common. </P> <P>I say rewrite the whole thing. Give every class an HO trigger at level 5 and scouts get upgrades for each tier. Each upgrade unlocks more duo, trio and 4-way HOs. Other classes get upgrades every 10 levels too but they're more like upgrades on previous ones, with additional side-effects.</P> <P>The current system does scale with the abilities you use but the additional benefit you get is very, very minor now. Doing an additional 100-200 damage on a level 45 mob is not going to turn the tide of a fight, even if you spam it (which you can't always do because of the random nature of the wheel).</P> <P>They should still have the rare HOs but they should remove the uncommon ones. Just have lots of different HOs but more definite ways to arrive at each, so the group can coordinate and pan definite tactics and buffs.</P> <P>And make the damage for duo, trio and 4-way HOs much, much higher, especially the 4-way ones.</P> <P>As the HO stands right now, it's too random and too unreliable to be of any major benefit. It should be difficult to use (the better HOs should all require 4 icons) but it should be more heroic and less luck.</P> <p>Message Edited by Ydiss on <span class=date_text>10-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:50 PM</span>

[Ranja]

<DIV>I replied to this on the combat board and the repy was no different than these. I suggest you look at an HO guide b/c I dont think you understand the purpose of HOs</DIV>

[thark]

<DIV>I liked the first version of the heroic system better than the new one, besides when they changed it to the carebear version that is now they came out as if this was just a temp solution for the "broken" current version..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, in the old system you "really" had to cooperate as a group or else there simply woudn't be any heroic op's at all, I remember when we got the old system to work, how it really felt as you were working together as a team, and the minute you didn't pay attention or did something wrong the heroic system got spoiled, THIS WAS THE BETTER system..ok it had it's flaws but it was originally a much better system for teamplay, and if fixed that system is lightyears better than the new system, in the current system you basically don't have to think at all, just push the correct hotbar and "voila"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I realised the old system coul'd be a real gamekiller sometimes and had to be fixed , I didnt say much at the time they were replacing it with current "baby" system, maybe if people find it so hard to play with the old system they coul'd let us have 2 systems of choice, a hard and a basic..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, reinstate a "fixed" first version of the heroic op's, or make it so that we can choose from 2 versions ...please</DIV>

[BALTO]

yep, was tuff but more fun.  SoE can't live to its standards of challange/risk and rewards.  I recall Morongaurd state'n, how great the new system was going to be, yada yada...(sware they chopped his ..... off, from how he use to put SoE in its place years ago)  <div><strong><font color="#ffcc00">*** Headlines ***</font></strong></div> <div> </div> - Heroic Opportunities have been revamped! well more like NERFed, randomness is plain silly these days, not much strategy besides one class able to flip (more like re-roll) for something else, an with the current 2 common an one mythical .... just silly....

[Kyuven]

<span><blockquote><hr>thark wrote:<div>I liked the first version of the heroic system better than the new one, besides when they changed it to the carebear version that is now they came out as if this was just a temp solution for the "broken" current version..</div> <div> </div> <div>Anyway, in the old system you "really" had to cooperate as a group or else there simply woudn't be any heroic op's at all, I remember when we got the old system to work, how it really felt as you were working together as a team, and the minute you didn't pay attention or did something wrong the heroic system got spoiled, THIS WAS THE BETTER system..ok it had it's flaws but it was originally a much better system for teamplay, and if fixed that system is lightyears better than the new system, in the current system you basically don't have to think at all, just push the correct hotbar and "voila"</div> <div> </div> <div>As I realised the old system coul'd be a real gamekiller sometimes and had to be fixed , I didnt say much at the time they were replacing it with current "baby" system, maybe if people find it so hard to play with the old system they coul'd let us have 2 systems of choice, a hard and a basic..</div> <div> </div> <div>Well, reinstate a "fixed" first version of the heroic op's, or make it so that we can choose from 2 versions ...please</div><hr></blockquote>the downside of the old system was that any skill other than the required would break HOs, which made them not worth doing for 6 man groups since you'd have to sacrifice DPS and healing to get it to work even now getting an HO impacts DPS in some cases</span><div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<DIV>I say do heroic opps like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>every archetype gets them at level 5, then every class at 10, and every subclass at 20.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An example would be:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mage = Arcane Auger / Sorcerer = Sorcerous Tome / Wizard = Elemental Lexicon</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arcane auger would have the same ones it currently has</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorcerous Tome would have Heroic opps based about fire ice magic and noxous type spells</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Elemental Lexicon would have heroic opps based upon elemental and magic spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The more distinct your class becomes (aka the general Mage, now a Fire/Ice/Magic-only wizard) the more distinct your heroic opps become.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mage heroic opps would involve magic only, but wizard's would focus on fire and ice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not to go into too much detal, but they coudl work like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Person A starts ther heroic opp. If person B activates their heroic opp before person A initiates a solo opp, then person A and B become linked. Now persona A and B can perform a duel opportunity. If their are more people, they can also join in by using their starters after person B.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, lets keep it simple and say that it's just person A and B.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since person A started it first, he chooses the overall form of what the opportunity will be with his next skill. Each sub-class could have 3 different "kinds" of initiating skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets say person A is a Paladin, and person B is a Ranger, Paladins can chose from using a Buff, Attack, or Heal to start their opp chain. Lets say this particular encounter is gona need some more damage, so paladin uses a divine attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This ends the paladin's part of the opp, now it's the ranger's turn. Ranger has 3 type of skills: Blade(or dagger, anythign melee really), Arrow(any ranged attack) or Trick (snare or defense debuffs and such).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ranger then determins what kind of divine attack will unfold. If ranger chooses bow, then it becomes <STRONG>Sacrid Arrow</STRONG>-  heavy divine damage attack, if ranger chose Blade,<STRONG> Divine Blades</STRONG>- applies a proc to ranger's weapons, granting high chance to deal divine damage for 30seconds, and if ranger choose Trick, <STRONG>Admonishing Shater</STRONG>- Deals divne damage over time, and lowers target's divine mitigation by alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a lot of room to expand this system, would be really interestnig to see the combinations people could come up with...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassing and Inquizitor? Fury and Monk? Wizard and Warden?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plenty of room for interesting ideas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[Goldenpaw]

<P>Hehe well it appears SoE took FFXI's extremely well done combat system and sort of tried to paste it in.</P> <P>Come on SoE either take the lawsuit or copy it just enough so as you can't get sued.</P> <P>The FFXI combat system has not been beat by any mmorpg that has been out in my very humble opinion.  I mean where else did you actually decide skill chains based upon the weakness of the mob, -and- have the ability for the mages to magic burst off of it.</P> <P>SoE I'll give you my 75 accounts there if you want to go see how it is done.</P> <P>Remember the Ancient Spells, Flood, Flare etc...</P> <P>You'd have to cast them then after you began the skill chain went off, and then after that the huge damage of the ancient magic would burst off of that.</P> <P>Talk about coordination, and so much fun for combat.</P> <P>If FFXI just had decided to make the game not a console based game.</P>

[Kyuven]

<span><blockquote><hr>Goldenpaw wrote:<p>Hehe well it appears SoE took FFXI's extremely well done combat system and sort of tried to paste it in.</p> <p>Come on SoE either take the lawsuit or copy it just enough so as you can't get sued.</p> <p>The FFXI combat system has not been beat by any mmorpg that has been out in my very humble opinion.  I mean where else did you actually decide skill chains based upon the weakness of the mob, -and- have the ability for the mages to magic burst off of it.</p> <p>SoE I'll give you my 75 accounts there if you want to go see how it is done.</p> <p>Remember the Ancient Spells, Flood, Flare etc...</p> <p>You'd have to cast them then after you began the skill chain went off, and then after that the huge damage of the ancient magic would burst off of that.</p> <p>Talk about coordination, and so much fun for combat.</p> <p>If FFXI just had decided to make the game not a console based game.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>the difference between FFXI's combat skills and EQ2's combat arts is that you could only use one of the weapon skill chain abilites everytime you filled up your bar to 100%+ they did require coordination, but when you compare it to the HO system where every skill and ability affects the Wheel...</span><div></div>

[Sv_Lor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<div>I say do heroic opps like this:</div> <div> </div> <div>every archetype gets them at level 5, then every class at 10, and every subclass at 20.</div> <div> </div> <div>An example would be:</div> <div> </div> <div>Mage = Arcane Auger / Sorcerer = Sorcerous Tome / Wizard = Elemental Lexicon</div> <div> </div> <div>Arcane auger would have the same ones it currently has</div> <div> </div> <div>Sorcerous Tome would have Heroic opps based about fire ice magic and noxous type spells</div> <div> </div> <div>Elemental Lexicon would have heroic opps based upon elemental and magic spells.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>The more distinct your class becomes (aka the general Mage, now a Fire/Ice/Magic-only wizard) the more distinct your heroic opps become.</div> <div> </div> <div>Mage heroic opps would involve magic only, but wizard's would focus on fire and ice.</div> <div> </div> <div>Not to go into too much detal, but they coudl work like this:</div> <div> </div> <div>Person A starts ther heroic opp. If person B activates their heroic opp before person A initiates a solo opp, then person A and B become linked. Now persona A and B can perform a duel opportunity. If their are more people, they can also join in by using their starters after person B.</div> <div> </div> <div>Anyway, lets keep it simple and say that it's just person A and B.</div> <div> </div> <div>Since person A started it first, he chooses the overall form of what the opportunity will be with his next skill. Each sub-class could have 3 different "kinds" of initiating skills.</div> <div> </div> <div>Lets say person A is a Paladin, and person B is a Ranger, Paladins can chose from using a Buff, Attack, or Heal to start their opp chain. Lets say this particular encounter is gona need some more damage, so paladin uses a divine attack.</div> <div> </div> <div>This ends the paladin's part of the opp, now it's the ranger's turn. Ranger has 3 type of skills: Blade(or dagger, anythign melee really), Arrow(any ranged attack) or Trick (snare or defense debuffs and such).</div> <div> </div> <div>The ranger then determins what kind of divine attack will unfold. If ranger chooses bow, then it becomes <strong>Sacrid Arrow</strong>-  heavy divine damage attack, if ranger chose Blade,<strong> Divine Blades</strong>- applies a proc to ranger's weapons, granting high chance to deal divine damage for 30seconds, and if ranger choose Trick, <strong>Admonishing Shater</strong>- Deals divne damage over time, and lowers target's divine mitigation by alot.</div> <div> </div> <div>There is a lot of room to expand this system, would be really interestnig to see the combinations people could come up with...</div> <div> </div> <div>Assassing and Inquizitor? Fury and Monk? Wizard and Warden?</div> <div> </div> <div>Plenty of room for interesting ideas.</div> <div> </div> <div>Toodles!</div> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Great idea Eyes!  I think this would make HO's much more enjoyable, and could really change the dynamics of duo's - without having to nerf mobs (heaven forbid SoE think of something like this).  The possiblities are endless if one were to think about this, but then again that might be the downfall of the idea, too much time invested in an area that has been proven to be not high on the priorty list.</span><div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>And actualy, the devs could stream line it and only have to write code for about 3 abilities per class. Each of these 3 abilities would render a specific effect or element. Each would have a detremenetal or beneficial effect to each so they could swing either way with your allies skills, listed as detremental then beneficial below in ( ) the second choise determins if it is offensive or defensive in nature.</P> <P>Wizard- <STRONG>Fire</STRONG>(direct damage or damage shield) , <STRONG>Ice</STRONG>(reduces attackspeed or elemental damage absorb ward), <STRONG>Magic</STRONG> (stuns or power boost)</P> <DIV>Then what ever skill the wizard's choosen element is combined in a prefix/suffix type relation with the other person's 3 abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example of a wizard and paladin:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladin- Melee attack (close range attacks that do medium damage) Holy bolt (ranged atacks that do alot of damage, perhaps a small stun, but longer reuse) or Heal (well...they heal duh = )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So now you can combine them to make 9 spell combos, with only 6 written codes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only thing they might have to do is come up with clever names.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fire + Holy bolt = Flaming Bolt of Justice, or perhaps Burning the Heretic or something like that, would do heavy divine and heat damage and small stun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Magic + Heal = Ethral Restoration (hp and power heal)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ice + Melee = Friggid Assult (melee attack that lowers foes attack speed)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughs are just examples.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They could start out with just the duo chains like this, and implement them in while they work on the 3 class chains, and then eventually release them, then beginn working on the 4 class chanis and such.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or, they could just implement this as something completely seprit from the heroic opportunities and make it a 2 person combo only, and make it to where two people in a group could coordinate theit efforts to pull these off, while annother 2 members might be working with a different chain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>Thought of somehting better to add, when u open your Duel Opportunity, your next skill/spell that is one of your 3 types that advance your opp will be sacrificed into the wheel. aka if a Necromancer brings their wheel up and uses their summon rat spell, that spells efect is sent to window insted of actually castng the rats at the foe, but when, say, the inquizitor finsihes up the combo with a debuff, it summons 3 mini skull-tenticles (stronger that rats) that also debuffs target's magical mitigations.</P></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another example of a mix between two classes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necro and Inquizitor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necro: <STRONG>Disease</STRONG>(dot or disease cure), <STRONG>Life taps</STRONG>(life tap effect or life tap proc shield), <STRONG>Summoning</STRONG> (offensive pets to attack or a shielding pet to defend)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Inquizitor: <STRONG>Heat</STRONG>(DD+dot or fire damage shield), <STRONG>Heals</STRONG>(Puts a reactive heal on opponant when they attack they heal your allies or heals person who uses skill), <STRONG>Debuffs</STRONG> (debuffs target's magical resists or places a compounding elemental debuff proc shield)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Disease + Heat =  Brand of Boils (deals heat damage then disease and heat damage over time)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Life tap + heal = Hungerd Mending ( heals ally and places a life tap shield on them)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Summoning + Debuff = Minons of Enfeebalment (summons 3 mini skull tenticles to attack foe<cast mini warlock spells>, and lowers foe's magical resists)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heat + Lifetap = Boiling Blood Shiphon (deals heat damage +heat damge over time and drains health of foe)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plenty of combos that could be potientially easyish to code hopefully if they could get a system to combine their effects (only problem devs would ahve is coming up with so many name combinations hehe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>10-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:35 PM</span>

[thark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kyuven wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR> <DIV>I liked the first version of the heroic system better than the new one, besides when they changed it to the carebear version that is now they came out as if this was just a temp solution for the "broken" current version..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, in the old system you "really" had to cooperate as a group or else there simply woudn't be any heroic op's at all, I remember when we got the old system to work, how it really felt as you were working together as a team, and the minute you didn't pay attention or did something wrong the heroic system got spoiled, THIS WAS THE BETTER system..ok it had it's flaws but it was originally a much better system for teamplay, and if fixed that system is lightyears better than the new system, in the current system you basically don't have to think at all, just push the correct hotbar and "voila"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I realised the old system coul'd be a real gamekiller sometimes and had to be fixed , I didnt say much at the time they were replacing it with current "baby" system, maybe if people find it so hard to play with the old system they coul'd let us have 2 systems of choice, a hard and a basic..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, reinstate a "fixed" first version of the heroic op's, or make it so that we can choose from 2 versions ...please</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>the downside of the old system was that any skill other than the required would break HOs, which made them not worth doing for 6 man groups since you'd have to sacrifice DPS and healing to get it to work<BR>even now getting an HO impacts DPS in some cases<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well yes as I said in my first post the original system had it's flaws, but I do not completly agree with you because if you wan't heroic opertunities to work you must be willing to sacrifice something for greater outcome in some cases, but render some classes completly useless was kind of frustrating , but if they fixed these flaws they would have a better system..But even thou with it's flaws I today MUCH rather have the old system back than what we have now.</P> <P> </P> <P>/Rigmor<BR></P> <P></P>