Moorgard - A Charming Question.

[Nerj]

<DIV>From what I am seeing from the testers and your notes is the following.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) As an illusionist if i get a Master ! copy of a Doppleganger Spell, I can create a Doppleganger that can cast Master I level spells untill canceled.</DIV> <DIV>2) As a Coercer if I get a Master 1 copy of a Charming Spell, I can Charm a ^^ or ^^^ Mob, which then has the DPS/HP of that tier of no up MOB for up to 15 minutes.</DIV> <DIV>However, the resist is checked every 30 to 45secs and the possibility exists that the MOB will break after less then 1 minute of charm, even at the Master 1 level.</DIV> <DIV>In addition, that MOB will head right for us after the break resulting in a death or group wipe, as the MOB being used is from outside the MOB being attacked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Therefore, why would any group use a Coercer with a MASTER 1 charmed pet, when an illusionist with a single MASTER 1 version Doppleganger could out damage the illusionist that created it, plus not have to worry about it trying to kill the enchanter or the group. Personally, I would have to say that any group that picks up a Coercer that has a pet along would be foolish, as the increased risk would provide little to no reward compared to an Illusionist with a pet that could out damage the Enchanter and allowing the Enchanter more flexibility to do other things in the group, without having to worry about the doppleganger trying to kill the group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Possible fixes to this.</DIV> <DIV>1) Breaks and attempted breaks only take place outside of combat.</DIV> <DIV>2) The higher the spell level the less likely a break attempt will take place. Ergo, a known length of time</DIV> <DIV>3) A Charmed pet will require a higher roll to break a charm then to establish it in the first place. For example, a 50% resits on intial cast whilst a 10% resist chance on break attempt.</DIV> <DIV>4)  A real long shot here since coding is done already, but the ability to control defeated MOBs only. Controling a defeated MOB would mean the duration would fully last and at the end the MOB would despawn. Since, we are following in the paths of summoner pets -- necros in this case, this would not be game breaking. Would prevent any exploitation of loot tables and give a reason to down/up teiring a MOB</DIV>

[PigLick]

Yah, the risk to reward ratio for charm is still a bit out of whack, especially with ^,^^,^^^ mobs. A couple more potential fixes: 5) Allow the mobs to retain some (though probably not all) of their strength instead of completely downgrading them to no-arrow status. This doesn't reduce risk, and a lot of people still won't want to use charm, but it does reward those who take on the significant extra risk of charming tougher mobs. 6) Add a short (~3 sec) stun on charm break. That gives a coercer who is being vigilant a better chance of getting that mob under control on a break before it can do any real damage. Charm can be a powerful (and fun) tool and can be difficult to balance, but it's not impossible, and in it's current state it still falls a bit short. PigLick <div></div>

[Ly]

<DIV>Nerjin- wrong wrong wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Illusionist dopplegangers are <STRONG>NOT</STRONG> for group use. They are to help the Illusionist solo! That's why they cost 3 concentration. The illusionist is better of using haste / breeze / dynamism / other buffs instead of the pet in a group - it ends up adding more damage NOT using the pet. </DIV>

[Nerj]

If, as I have read, that the doppleganger has no HP and would die with 1 hit. How would you be able to use it to solo? Where in a group, it could be prtected by a Tank. In addition, the assumption here is that a Master 1 version would have greater skills as it would be using its powers at a Master 1 level. Plus the additional damage done by you, again pointing things out brought up by others that appear to have been overlooked.

[Ly]

<DIV>Why would you use it in a group?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That takes 3 of your conc slots Nerj. That means 3 lost opportunities for dynamism and/or haste. They also lowered the dmg of our pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you think it's a good idea to use the pet in a grp, go ahead.  </DIV>

[Ly]

<DIV>Not sure if you're on beta or not... the spells dev posted he'd be reviewing the HP of our pet yesterday. Today's patch showed no improvements. We'll see what tomorrow brings. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just FYI. </DIV>

[ClaudiustheG]

<P>Well, I guess you're happy now, because they nerfed the duplicate to hell and back.  Nice heads-up play calling for the enchanter nerf there, I hope I can return the favor some day.</P> <P>Claudius</P>

[Abado]

Would you please open your eyes and behave in a more mature fashion? If you read the first post you will see that he was trying to get charm changed to be more useable (hence the list of suggested changes to CHARM) and never mentioned anything about changing doppleganger. <div></div>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Abadoth wrote:<BR>Would you please open your eyes and behave in a more mature fashion?<BR><BR>If you read the first post you will see that he was trying to get charm changed to be more useable (hence the list of suggested changes to CHARM) and never mentioned anything about changing doppleganger.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The intial info is incorrect and directly aimed at Ilusionists.</P> <P>The Dopple DPS is [Removed for Content] and was [Removed for Content].  What it did well is tank.  Now it cannot do that.</P> <P>Coercers should leave Illusionists out when asking for improvements.  Usually seems as though they are asking for our nerfage in order to get thier balance.</P> <DIV>No one is requiring Coercers to charm ^^^.  In fact if you are doing it and it isn't the ONLY mob you can find you are a fool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One loose solo mob does not wipe a group.</DIV>

[SunT]

<P>Something else, Try charming Pookie in EQ1.  Try charming, pulling and doing CC in a Hard Ldon in EQ1.  Your charm is far too eassy IMO.  At the saem time you get far to little reward.</P> <P>But considering what has been done to my pet who was to give me the illusion of being able to solo, I really dont care.</P>

[Abado]

The information on doppleganger may have been incorrect, but since the post was about changes to charm to make it more useful it doesn't seem to be all that relevant in my opinion. It seems that many enchanters on the forums are too focused on illusionists and coercers being balanced with each other instead of with the rest of the mages as when one suggets fixes for one sublcass, the other subclass thinks a request is being made to nerf them. I haven't used doppleganger, from what I read (before this last patch) it sounded like it was going in the right direction, just from reading what it has been changed too it sounds useless (certainly not worth 3 concentration slots). I (even though I play a coercer) would like to see it useful so that it is used and proves to be worth the 3 slots. The main thing with charming (which makes it fun in most peoples eyes) is the high risk, high reward factor. Currently it is either medium risk, very low reward (when charming weak mobs), or high risk, low reward when charming up arrow mobs. It breaks quickly much of the time and the tools for proper control of a break (in many circumstances) aren't there. The reason charm was changed to allow charming heroic mobs was so there would actually be mobs we could charm in dungeons etc. This basically forces us into the high risk, low reward area. Then factor in if you are in a group you have to choose to spend those 3 concentration slots on buffs or on charm. So for the charm to even be considered, it would need to be worth those 3 slots. That isn't even factoring the risk. Coercers aren't asking to have a 10 minute fixed duration charm they can use on a triple up arrow yellow con mob at full strength, there have been suggestions on how to actually make the spell more useful and fun, but not overpowered. You say the charming is too easy, having played EQ1. I played a 65 necro in EQ1 and did lots of charming so I'm aware of how risky it can be. However EQ2 is a different game and there are plenty of differences, charm is not as easy as you seem to think it is. When charm breaks in combat you almost always end up with 2 mobs beating on you. You can try to keep the target rooted so a charm break means you just have to regain control of your pet, but that just doesn't work. I've tried chain casting root on the target and even this only worked very rarely. So two mobs coming at you, 3 second cast stun. Assuming the mobs take 2 seconds to get to you and you don't get an interrupt (or resist), you have 2 mobs on your for 1 second, then 1 mob for another 3 seconds (assuming you have another stun spell or a mez, root etc.). Assuming no interrupt or resist that one is 'controlled'. You then have 3 seconds before the stun wears off on the first mob, assuming you mezzed the second mob you don't need to get out of range like with root. You mez the pet mob, then recharm. That is best case scenario really. AoE mez won't work since the mobs are seperate encounters, if you use root to regain control it may well break fast (assuming it lands) and you'd need to get out of melee range once it lands. And all this to regain control of a mob so that it can be a weak/ok'ish pet. With practice charming can be ok for soloing (well, kinda need it now), but what group would want all that going on, especially at the cost of 3 concentration slots that could be used for buffs. option a) Few buffs, high risk, low reward option b) Many buffs, no risk, good reward Instead of comparing each enchanter subclass with each other, can we please compare them with the other mages? Who cares if we are equal to each other but suck compared with the others. Or if you make it easy<ish> (ie. charm down arrow blue mob and fight another down arrow blue) it isn't particularly rewarding, but still remains risky. <div></div>

[Twoboxer2]

<P>Sorry, I don't see your problem.</P> <P>Your charmed pet breaks, you are going to recharm it, or mezz it and recharm depending on the re-cast times that make it into the game. </P> <P>If you have two mobs on you in a group encounter, you drew aggro and probably deserve the problem lol. But you handle it as you would soloing . . . with the group's cooperation , of course . . . and good luck with that in pickup groups I admit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>If you are soloing using a charmed pet, you should have <STRONG><U>distance</U></STRONG> to give you time to re-charm or mezz the first mob immediately on its break. With luck you can mezz the second one before it eats you. Back up, recharm the first mob and trust it to regain aggro. Get your stun ready if it doesn't regain aggro immediately.</P> <P>You have enough tools and get a very powerful ally in return. Why should it be any easier?</P>

[Abado]

I'm guessing you haven't used it much in EQ2. In a group you will be fighting tougher mobs, if there are a few of them and you charm one, great a bit extra dps and one less eating your group. Then charm breaks, the mob comes for you, it is no longer a neutered version of itself, but the full whack. The tank would have to be very quick to get the mob off you. You might be lucky and get it mezzed (assuming no interrupts and resists) and ignoring that someone in the group will break mez. If you recharm during this period great, if not you die. Then the mob turns to the next person, which may well be a healer. etc. etc. you could probably see many situations where this would just mess things up and make groups think the risk is in no way worth the 'reward', which is NOT very powerful pet. Soloing, yes you keep some distance, but you need to be in range to cast spells. The time it takes the mobs from charm break to get to you goes fast. You might be able to get one mezzed before it hits you (assuming no interrupts or resists), then you have one beating on you to deal with. As you said "with luck you can mezz the second one before it eats you". If you get resisted on mezzing the first one mob then you would be lucky to survive at all, as then you would have 2 mobs beating on you and causing interrupts. I'm not sure how the higher level coercers feel (who have more tools) but at low level there is a 3 second cast mez, a 3 second cast stun and arcane bindings. The extra tools are things like hasting the pet. I'm not sure what makes you think it is 'a very powerful ally', it isn't. But when charm breaks, THEN it is powerful (unless you charmed some piddly wee thing in which case it was a very weak pet anyway). <div></div>

[SunT]

<P>I do not agree that it is a piddly pet.  A solo no arrow mob is a challenge in Test.   The typical solo mob on live is a one arrow down on test and even that is far more challenging than live.</P> <P>You are getting a solid pet and I am sure some of the ones you charm are going to do very nice DPS.  </P> <P>Just get this charming ^^^ out of your head.  It is a STUPID thing to do unless you HAVE to.</P> <P>In EQ1 you ahd to HUNT for a charm pet.  Once you got one you kept him up and abused the heck out of him.  </P> <P>A couple tips for charming.  </P> <P>Keep your pet targeted at all times.  Once he changes target on you you know to cast stun or mez on him.  </P> <P>Majorly Debuf his target so if it comes at you it is gimped to a certain degree.  </P> <P>If there is another stun/root caster in group have them cast thru your pet as well.  They can help you lock him down until you get him under control.</P> <P>Don't charm solo in closed places. You need room to run around.</P> <P>Use you stun on the fly ONLY for your pet.  That way you always have a tool to keep him at bay.</P> <P> </P> <P>You guys just need to be smart about it.  It is a VERY cool skill, but it is a SKILL.  If you master it, it will be wanted, if you suk it will not be wanted.</P>

[Nerj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Abadoth wrote:<BR>Would you please open your eyes and behave in a more mature fashion?<BR><BR>If you read the first post you will see that he was trying to get charm changed to be more useable (hence the list of suggested changes to CHARM) and never mentioned anything about changing doppleganger.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The intial info is incorrect and directly aimed at Ilusionists.</P> <P>The Dopple DPS is [Removed for Content] and was [Removed for Content].  What it did well is tank.  Now it cannot do that.</P> <P>Coercers should leave Illusionists out when asking for improvements.  Usually seems as though they are asking for our nerfage in order to get thier balance.</P> <DIV>No one is requiring Coercers to charm ^^^.  In fact if you are doing it and it isn't the ONLY mob you can find you are a fool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One loose solo mob does not wipe a group.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1) It is not aimed at Illusionist. What I am stating is a fact. </P> <P>First, Illusionist is used since we are supposed to be in same DPS tier. </P> <P>Second, What  stated was that Illusionist Doppleganger does not turn on the user.</P> <P>Third, Quality of the spells used is dependant on the quality of the spell used to cast. Therefore your Doppleganger could do more damage then you can by yourself. especially, if you do not posses any other Masters.</P> <P>Fourth, after the revamp 2 solo blues will be a problem. Plus, I cannot outrun a formerly charmed pet as they will follow us till we zone out.</P> <P>Fifth, Same startegies you state for a Coercer can be used with Doppleganger. Mez, the enemy an remake the Dopple or used your other buffs.</P> <P>Sixth, Doppleganger may get killed (While you get to run away). However, it does not go POOF! after 30 secs. at any health level. </P> <P>Point was and is as Coercer's we take on a larger risk then or Illusionist brothers or Summoners or Warlocks or any other class that can create a pet, without a comensurate reward (aka: a better PET) </P> <DIV>P.S. --> If more then one illusionist in a group, only one will be able to buff as the buffs won't stack.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nerjin on <span class=date_text>09-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:03 PM</span>

[SunT]

And again Nerjin, A solo con no arrow mob is formidable.  You get a good pet.

[ClaudiustheG]

<P>The next time you are pointing out a problem with one of your spells, please resist the urge to say that it is broken because it doesn't work as well as a comperable illusionist spell.  The Developers' track record with enchanters has been that instead of fixing your spell, they will just nerf ours, so we both lose.</P> <P>Here's a sample:</P> <P>"Charm is broken because it is high risk, low reward, and doesn't last long enough.  My suggestions for fixing it are x, y, and z."</P> <P>So, no mention of illusionists, so less chance of exposing illusionists to the nerf bat.  If instead you say "Charm is broken because it doesn't work as well as the illusionists' duplicate", you're going to get us nerfed.</P> <P>Next time, use your head.  Please, for both our sakes.  I will accept that you meant well, but lately I feel like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rockers.  Every day I log on it seems like we have gotten another nerf.</P> <P>Claudius</P>

[Nerj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR>And again Nerjin, A solo con no arrow mob is formidable.  You get a good pet. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, but for how long? 30 secs.? 1 min.? 8 mins.?  Then you have a relentless foe. One that only the Coercer's death will satisfy.<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ClaudiustheGod wrote:<BR> <P>The next time you are pointing out a problem with one of your spells, please resist the urge to say that it is broken because it doesn't work as well as a comparible illusionist spell.  The Developers' track record with enchanters has been that instead of fixing your spell, they will just nerf ours, so we both lose.</P> <P>Here's a sample:</P> <P>"Charm is broken because it is high risk, low reward, and doesn't last long enough.  My suggestions for fixing it are x, y, and z."</P> <P>So, no mention of illusionists, so less chance of exposing illusionists to the nerf bat.  If instead you say "Charm is broken because it doesn't work as well as the illusionists' duplicate", you're going to get us nerfed.</P> <P>Next time, use your head.  Please, for both our sakes.  I will accept that you meant well, but lately I feel like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rockers.  Every day I log on it seems like we have gotten another nerf.</P> <P>Claudius</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sorry but, I didn't say it's not as good as the Illusionist's Spell. What I stated was that hte Doppleganger has less risk associated with it, as do ALL other classes that use a pet. In addition, I pointed out that the Doppleganger will use spells at the level of the spell used to cast it. When pointing out our fellow archtype's comparable skill doesn't have that risk, it shows WHY we need it to be better then it is. What it does not do is say nerf something we don't have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most likely the current changes to doppleganger are as a result of the changes to Summoners pets and NOT based on what Coercers have said or NOT said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. -- The Doppleganger should be based on the duplication of whatever the illusionsist has selected. Whether it is a MOB or another player. Most likely a MOB, then a reduction of 25% would make sense. Plus, a shorter duration then Charm.</DIV>

[Abado]

I can assure you I know charming very well, I spent a lot of time doing it in EQ1 with my necro (ie. fewer tools to work with for the most part). "Just get this charming ^^^ out of your head.  It is a STUPID thing to do unless you HAVE to." That is the point; they changed charm to work on ^^^ heroics because in some places there are hardly any non heroic mobs. This FORCES us to take a bigger risk (or just forgot the spell entirely), yet the 'reward' remains the same. Even if someone mastered it, what group do you reckon would actually WANT you to use it? My money says the group would much rather have those concentrations slots spent on buffs instead of a minor dps increase (compared to the group) which could potentially end up turning into a large dps increase AGAINST the group at any time. It has the potential to be a good skill with some further tweaking, but what most coercers want it for is high risk-high reward, so it requires a lot of skill to use well, but is also rewarding. At the moment is is high risk-average reward, or average risk-low reward. Weaking the pet but making fixed duration would make it low risk-average reward, but having a strong pet (not necessarily quite as strong as when not charmed) with a chance to break at any time would be high risk-high reward. The last option is what most coercers are after I think. I know I am. I spent a loooong time in EQ1 in maiden's eye with my necro, I'd charm a Xi Xaui cleric mob and haste it to use as my pet. The thing was a complete monster, not bad nukes but would melee like a chainsaw. I used to charm it, take it to my spot and park it, then find something to pull (you probably remember how tricky it can be there with the wanders and traps) then take that back to the pet and basically 'feed it' to the pet. Many times charm would break in a fight or as I was pulling, many times I died due to bad luck, adds, not being fast enough etc. but it was all fun because all this effort was being used to get this monster to work for me. Just keeping it around under my control was fun, I felt powerful, but at anytime the thing could break charm and if it got close to me I was toothpaste. <feign death didn't really work in this case as when it broke charm it would usually start casting a nuke, so if I fd'd the nuke would still hit and break FD>.  I died so many times doing this (and the exp wasn't particularly fantastic since the pet would take some as it did most of the damage) that anytime I type in guildchat everyone thought I needed another rez. Not that I didn't know what I was doing (I'd keep that same pet for a couple of hours) but with the high risk sometimes I just bit the big one. Charm in EQ2 just doesn't feel like this at all, you can get that high risk no problem, but it just doesn't feel worth it. <div></div>

[Nerj]

<P>If youa are in an area that is full of heroics ^^ and ^^^ MOBs, you are probably not soloing. Pull a group of heroics and use charm on one and have it pound on the rest, a lot better then letting it pound on the TANK. If thjere is a healer in the group take out the healer and have it aid the TANK. Most likely if charm breaks in this case the MOB will heal it's group before coming after you. If not deal with it, your group would have to at some point in the encounter anyway. </P> <P>The DEVS are not going to let us have a ^^^ yellow con MOB on a leash for 10 min. with Full HP and in Full DPS mode.</P>

[Abado]

"The DEVS are not going to let us have a ^^^ yellow con MOB on a leash for 10 min. with Full HP and in Full DPS mode." I don't see anyone asking for that. <div></div>

[Nerj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Abadoth wrote:<BR>"The DEVS are not going to let us have a ^^^ yellow con MOB on a leash for 10 min. with Full HP and in Full DPS mode."<BR><BR>I don't see anyone asking for that.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL, the spells are set, as is the duration.  Beguille is 10 Mins. and Dominate is 12 mins MAX. </P> <P>The point is that, if you want to charm ^^ and ^^^ MOBs then you will have to accept the implementation that the DEVs have provided. In addition, the risks are now a known issue. How bad it works out will be determined by customer feedback. My bet is that there will be no changes to how it currently works but, duration will be decreased due to other classes complaining about it.</P> <P>(Note: higher quality spells are providing better duration)</P>

[Bloodtoo]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nerjin wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Abadoth wrote:"The DEVS are not going to let us have a ^^^ yellow con MOB on a leash for 10 min. with Full HP and in Full DPS mode."I don't see anyone asking for that. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>LOL, the spells are set, as is the duration.  Beguille is 10 Mins. and Dominate is 12 mins MAX. </p> <p>The point is that, if you want to charm ^^ and ^^^ MOBs then you will have to accept the implementation that the DEVs have provided. In addition, the risks are now a known issue. How bad it works out will be determined by customer feedback. My bet is that there will be no changes to how it currently works but, duration will be decreased due to other classes complaining about it.</p> <p>(Note: higher quality spells are providing better duration)</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Part of the problem is Charm DOES NOT last 10 or 12 min as described unless you charm greens or greys, above those it lasts about 3 minutes or less.  Blue, white and yellow con mobs invariably break early often on the first resist check at 30 seconds. Add to this that Coercers defensive spells (stun mez etc) typically take 3 seconds or more to cast we are in a heap of trouble when that pet comes loose during a fight. It's pretty much certain death charming a yellow ^^^ mob.  </span>

[PigLick]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bloodtooth wrote:<span><blockquote></blockquote> Add to this that Coercers defensive spells (stun mez etc) typically take 3 seconds or more to cast we are in a heap of trouble when that pet comes loose during a fight.</span><hr></blockquote>Well, that may be level based then if those are the cast times on your test/beta character. At 35, my coercer's root is only 1 sec, mez is 1.5 sec, and group mez 2 seconds. Unnerving (stun) is only 2 seconds as well, it's the perplexity line which is 3 seconds. The stuns are too long (especially perplex), but the rest are fine. PigLick</span><div></div>

[Bloodtoo]

<span><blockquote><hr>PigLickJF wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Bloodtooth wrote:<span><blockquote></blockquote> Add to this that Coercers defensive spells (stun mez etc) typically take 3 seconds or more to cast we are in a heap of trouble when that pet comes loose during a fight.</span><hr></blockquote>Well, that may be level based then if those are the cast times on your test/beta character. At 35, my coercer's root is only 1 sec, mez is 1.5 sec, and group mez 2 seconds. Unnerving (stun) is only 2 seconds as well, it's the perplexity line which is 3 seconds. The stuns are too long (especially perplex), but the rest are fine. PigLick</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Do you feel it's adequite to cope with your ^^^ charmed pet when it breaks along with what ever your fighting?</span><div></div>

[PigLick]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Bloodtooth wrote:<span> Do you feel it's adequite to cope with your ^^^ charmed pet when it breaks along with what ever your fighting?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Nope, I feel that up-arrow mob risk vs reward is still out of whack and should be dealt with. Edit: let me clarify. If we were getting a significant reward for charming up-arrows, I would feel it's (almost) adequate (our stuns still have casting times that are much too long). That's a powerful mob, you're taking a big risk by trying to control it. It's just that right now we get no benefit whatsoever while maintaining a huge risk. But that's mostly a grouping issue, and since we have plenty of other things to contribute in a group it's not a huge issue right now. I hope it gets changed, but I have my doubts whether it will or not, so the best thing for us to do is test, analyze, and present logical, accurate, well-reasoned data and arguments to support our cause without any exaggeration or misrepresentation of the truth. Anything less than that will be, and shoud be, ignored by the devs. PigLick</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by PigLickJF on <span class=date_text>09-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:06 AM</span>