Why Scouts get stances?

[cr0wangel]

<DIV> <DIV>About the new stances</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stances:<BR>- Fighter defensive stances now provide less physical damage mitigation and have greater offensive penalties.<BR>- Fighter offensive stances now provide an increased bonus to offense and steeper defensive penalties.<BR>- Scout defensive stances also have DPS and offensive skill penalties, but their defensive benefits have increased.<BR>- Scout offensive stances now have increased offensive skills and a proc, but have steeper defensive penalties. The positional requirement has been removed.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone know why scouts get stances as well? They are not fighters...Priests and mages do not get stances, so why the scouts?</DIV></DIV>

[Rallan007]

<P>Err maybe because they fight in melee just like fighters do, they are trained combatants whom get parry and can choose to fight defensively or more aggressively (or normal by using no stance) i see no reason at all why Scouts should not get stances they can use there skills to fight more off/def just like fighters can, if u dont like em then i guess just dont use em, simple answer .. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Seems straightforward enough though to me, bare in mind scouts just like fighters have always had some line focused on defence, even b4 the update, adding parry, defence, hate reduction etc so this is just a rehash and extension of that.</P> <P>Casters dont get stances due to there primary ability being focused on weilding the magic arts, they dont have any training for special melee techniques.</P> <P> </P>

[Prieston]

Scouts have always had those stances, it's just they were in the form of buffs; there is a defensive buff and an offensive buff that had to be recast every minute or two. They removed those buffs and replaced them with ones (the stances) that we don't have to refresh every minute.

[Amise]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>cr0wangel wrote:<div> <div>About the new stances</div> <div> </div> <div>Stances:- Fighter defensive stances now provide less physical damage mitigation and have greater offensive penalties.- Fighter offensive stances now provide an increased bonus to offense and steeper defensive penalties.- Scout defensive stances also have DPS and offensive skill penalties, but their defensive benefits have increased.- Scout offensive stances now have increased offensive skills and a proc, but have steeper defensive penalties. The positional requirement has been removed.</div> <div> </div> <div>Anyone know why scouts get stances as well? They are not fighters...Priests and mages do not get stances, so why the scouts?</div></div><hr></blockquote>Anyone know why fighters get offensive stances as well? They are not DPS...Mages do not get offensive melee stances so why the fighters? Works both ways. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Defensive stances won't turn scouts into great tanks, and offensive stances won't turn fighters into great DPS.  It's just an opportunity to enhance a different role when neccessary.  </span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Amise on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:13 AM</span>

[Pins]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>About the new stances</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stances:<BR>- Fighter defensive stances now provide less physical damage mitigation and have greater offensive penalties.<BR>- Fighter offensive stances now provide an increased bonus to offense and steeper defensive penalties.<BR>- Scout defensive stances also have DPS and offensive skill penalties, but their defensive benefits have increased.<BR>- Scout offensive stances now have increased offensive skills and a proc, but have steeper defensive penalties. The positional requirement has been removed.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone know why scouts get stances as well? They are not fighters...Priests and mages do not get stances, so why the scouts?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Dunno about Priests, but mages do get stances.  Summoners have pets(offensive), and magi's shielding(defensive).  While Enchanters have Charm/Dopple(Offensive), and Shielding(defensive).  Sorcs only have shielding so they don't get an offensive stance.<BR></DIV>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Amise wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>Anyone know why fighters get offensive stances as well? They are not DPS...Mages do not get offensive melee stances so why the fighters?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>It's pretty simple, fighters always had stances (didn't know scouts has similar thing). Fighters get offensive stance so they can have a role, something to do in a group while they are not the tank.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>I asked the question because I want to know if SOE is telling us: scouts get defensive stance to be the tank while there is no tank in the group? A fighter doing damage is not bad, but a scout taking the tank role is very risky and not good.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN><BR><BR>Works both ways. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Defensive stances won't turn scouts into great tanks, and offensive stances won't turn fighters into great DPS.  It's just an opportunity to enhance a different role when neccessary. </P></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[OperationsX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>About the new stances</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stances:<BR>- Fighter defensive stances now provide less physical damage mitigation and have greater offensive penalties.<BR>- Fighter offensive stances now provide an increased bonus to offense and steeper defensive penalties.<BR>- Scout defensive stances also have DPS and offensive skill penalties, but their defensive benefits have increased.<BR>- Scout offensive stances now have increased offensive skills and a proc, but have steeper defensive penalties. The positional requirement has been removed.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone know why scouts get stances as well? They are not fighters...Priests and mages do not get stances, so why the scouts?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Dunno about Priests, but mages do get stances.  Summoners have pets(offensive), and magi's shielding(defensive).  While Enchanters have Charm/Dopple(Offensive), and Shielding(defensive).  Sorcs only have shielding so they don't get an offensive stance.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Mages dont' get stances unless they are summoners with pets, that pet gets a stance not the actual mage. Charm/Dopple is not an comparable to an offensive stance lol, Magi Shield is NOT a defensive, infact it requires no consentration now and is just an added buff, does not compare.

[Brocc]

<span><blockquote><hr>cr0wangel wrote:<div><span><font color="#ff9900">A fighter doing damage is not bad, but a scout taking the tank role is very risky and not good.</font></span> </div><hr></blockquote>Brigand is given tools to tank - taunts, skills that raise hate - heck, they can even use a shield.  My Brigand Alt has done a fine job tanking for small groups. If fighters get extra DPS when not tanking, why shouldn't scouts get extra tank'ability when not DPS'ing?  Both ideas make it easier to form a workable group with whatever is at hand, rather than waiting for a fighter or DPS class to join.</span><div></div>

[EQoobTa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Broccli wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Brigand is given tools to tank - taunts, skills that raise hate - heck, they can even use a shield.  My Brigand Alt has done a fine job tanking for small groups.<BR><BR>If fighters get extra DPS when not tanking, why shouldn't scouts get extra tank'ability when not DPS'ing?  Both ideas make it easier to form a workable group with whatever is at hand, rather than waiting for a fighter or DPS class to join.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yeah and if scouts get to curl up in a defensive ball when they overdo the DPS and peel aggro why shouldn't my Conjuror be able to do the same thing when I get overzealous?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only do scouts get to wear armor with more mitigation now they can buff up their defense even higher when needed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts replacing tanks?  I surely hope not.  Helping a tank out by tanking one or two mobs that are linked to a 5-6 mob group I can go for, but if a Scout wants to actually tank, they should roll...a tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soloing will hopefully get better for them with these new stances and to offset being able to take down mobs they couldn't before they'll have lowered DPS, this I can definitely see and say congratulations to all Scouts.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, if these stances allow them to replace tanks or make peeling aggro almost trivial in groups I say bad move.</DIV>

[Amise]

<span><blockquote><hr>cr0wangel wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>Amise wrote:</p> <p><span>Anyone know why fighters get offensive stances as well? They are not DPS...Mages do not get offensive melee stances so why the fighters?</span></p> <p><span><font color="#ff9900">It's pretty simple, fighters always had stances (didn't know scouts has similar thing). Fighters get offensive stance so they can have a role, something to do in a group while they are not the tank.</font></span></p> <p><span><font color="#ff9900">I asked the question because I want to know if SOE is telling us: scouts get defensive stance to be the tank while there is no tank in the group? A fighter doing damage is not bad, but a scout taking the tank role is very risky and not good.</font></span><span>Works both ways. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Defensive stances won't turn scouts into great tanks, and offensive stances won't turn fighters into great DPS.  It's just an opportunity to enhance a different role when neccessary. </span></p> <hr> </blockquote> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Fair enough then.  Like someone else said, scouts have always had short duration offensive and defensive buffs, so it's not really so illogical to give them stances. And it's not totally outlandish for some scout classes to tank if they have to.  Certainly not innately risky.   A fighter is always going to be preferable but rogues and bards actually do get taunts so it's not as bad as you think.  I've done my share of tanking and I do ok on  low blue-green mobs if I have a good healer but without taunts keeping agro in multi-mob encounters is very difficult.  I will use the defensive stance for the rare occasions that I tank in a group but it will mostly be used for soloing (which I think is the main intention of defensive stances for non-fighters).</span><div></div>

[Pouncer74]

<DIV>For 10 months most scouts have been the absolute worst soloers in a solo intensive game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts are a melee class who are at greater risk when fighting mobs as compared to casters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On raids scouts die just as fast as casters...if not more because they have to be in melee range.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are fully removing the ability of predators to bow kite i.e. the only long drawn out ability they had to solo anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defensive stances will hopefully allow scouts to solo something toe to toe.  Without them, scouts would continue to be unable to solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cannot imagine scouts being able to tank for groups ever.  Rogue taunts make me laugh and fall off my chair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let the scouts finally ahve some love.  If you look at most raiding guilds you might notice that they are very scout light compared to many classes.  Maybe some positive changes might get more people to play them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fix the scouts....then fix the enchanters then life will be good tyvm!</DIV>

[Moria15]

<DIV>I'm sorry Pouncer, I have to disagree...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As  a Ranger (scout) I have solo'ed at least some of every level all the way to 50 using leather armour only.  I have never been in a position where I can't take a yellow mob  even at lvl 49 solo.  (I am not talking arrowed mobs, just normal ones)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never kite,  I just smack a couple of arrows into it from range then melee the  thing when it gets close.  If the poison doesn't take early, it could be close though, and I pick my targets and stick with ones I know I can take   <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have regularly tanked for our mini group of Me, Mystic and Enchanter at all levels whilst waiting for our main tank to come on including when we were all lvl 43  tanking on tundra terrors in EF.  I never loose aggro because of the DPS I put into the beast, I am always the highest hate target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts (Rangers) were perfectly able to solo pre combat update, and I think it just got better with the combat update  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think my armour or spells are anything special that can't be easily obtained either, perhaps I just spent a lot on weapons   <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yosh</DIV> <DIV>lvl 50 Ranger  Oasis</DIV><p>Message Edited by Moria15 on <span class=date_text>09-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:01 PM</span>

[Gwide]

When I play my scout, I don't want to tank.  However, if the stances might mean that I might stand a chance solo against even cons or deep green undercons . . . well  .... Woot!

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>About the new stances</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone know why scouts get stances as well? They are not fighters...Priests and mages do not get stances, so why the scouts?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I beg your pardon?  I fight all the time.  You must have lazy bards.</DIV>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>About the new stances</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone know why scouts get stances as well? They are not fighters...Priests and mages do not get stances, so why the scouts?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I beg your pardon?  I fight all the time.  You must have lazy bards.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was refering to the class, I mean Scouts are not Fighters, Fighters Class, not fighter like '' they fight''.  -roll his eyes-</DIV>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Broccli wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>Brigand is given tools to tank - taunts, skills that raise hate - heck, they can even use a shield.<BR></P></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I did not grouped with many brigand as they seem to be missing on my server. It's really strange they get taunts, I just hope some brigands won't try to have fun by taunting the mob off the tank to show ''they can do it''.</DIV>

[Teksun]

I'm confused over your concern. So what if scouts have both offensive and defensive stances. We will never be able to tank as well as a fighter. That is not our job. A better question might be is why can fighters do the same DPS as scouts sans CA's? <div></div>

[Gyilok]

<P>brigands and shwash are given taunts and hate gaining abilities, but none of them wants them</P> <P>atm there is no lvl 50 brigand probably that has taunt on his hotbar (taunt will be a huge divine debuff after revamp, so it might be used sometimes) most orgues struggle to spam abilities that supposed to lower hate and are broken</P>

[OperationsX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>About the new stances</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone know why scouts get stances as well? They are not fighters...Priests and mages do not get stances, so why the scouts?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I beg your pardon?  I fight all the time.  You must have lazy bards.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Bards solo their HO wheels too much when they fight  :smileysad:</P> <P>I want an uber HO starting bard, are you one of em Calthine? :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Brocc]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gyilok wrote:<p>brigands and shwash are given taunts and hate gaining abilities, but none of them wants them</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>At least one of us likes and uses this stuff.  Too many players think only in terms of raids and "the 100% perfect group". If you are in a half group without a tank - my brigand can do a passable job tanking.  I can hold agro against a reasonably smart mage, I can stand up to a heroic with the help of a reasonably smart priest.  It sure beats standing around waiting for a fighter to join. Even in a group with a tank - sometimes the tank dies or is dying.  Sometimes an add needs to be distracted.  Sometimes you want to peel from the mage no one has noticed is getting hit.  You can use these tools to do other than main-tank. I've already got some detaunts to remove the agro once the crisis has passed - this will be getting better.  The defensive stance will also improve this role.</span><div></div>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OperationsX wrote:<BR><BR> <P><BR>Bards solo their HO wheels too much when they fight  :smileysad:</P> <P>I want an uber HO starting bard, are you one of em Calthine? :smileyvery-happy:</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I am <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  tho truth be told I duo a lot, and the Templar-started HO's work better for us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV>I hate being in a group and a nice HO gets started and someone drops the ball on it 'cause they don't use HO's.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:09 PM</span>

[OperationsX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OperationsX wrote:<BR><BR> <P><BR>Bards solo their HO wheels too much when they fight  :smileysad:</P> <P>I want an uber HO starting bard, are you one of em Calthine? :smileyvery-happy:</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I am <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  tho truth be told I duo a lot, and the Templar-started HO's work better for us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV>I hate being in a group and a nice HO gets started and someone drops the ball on it 'cause they don't use HO's.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Calthine on <SPAN class=date_text>09-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:09 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hehe sweet :smileyhappy: , yah I'm not being classist to the bards here, I just notice, with bards and predators also that when they get the HO wheel going they like instantly solo it! I'm serious rofl.  One time I didn't even see the starter wheel go and I saw a sword instanly for like all of 1 second then the bard completed their HO. </P> <P>It was more funny than annoying at first. But then it wasn't just a few times or I wouldn't have a problem, people play their own way, but it was EVERY single time lol, I was just wondering if it had to do with skill mechanics of those type of scouts that its hard not to do that or was that bard just going 'Hey look at me! Instead of helping out the whole group by working together and waiting all of 3 seconds for the tank to combine taunt in, I can do Uber l33t bard melee damage on the mob!!1' heh</P> <P>Then again maybe I'm just obsessed with HOs .....hmm that didn't sound right :smileysurprised:</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:49 PM</span>

[Amise]

If you're having that problem a lot, just make it clear that you are wanting to do group HOs.   You may have some miscommunication going on if it's a problem with all the scouts that you group with (cause there are plenty out there that do understand how HOs work).  When I was levelling I remember that a lot of the time I'd get in a pickup group, I'd start triggering HOs for the group, and they'd just sit there and do nothing with it, or break them to trigger their own solo HOs.  A lot of people don't know that scouts are the best class to start group HOs when you have all archetypes present in a group.   It's not really a scout issue so much as that some people still don't understand how HOs work, scouts and other classes included.  <div></div>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OperationsX wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Hehe sweet :smileyhappy: , yah I'm not being classist to the bards here, I just notice, with bards and predators also that when they get the HO wheel going they like instantly solo it! I'm serious rofl.  One time I didn't even see the starter wheel go and I saw a sword instanly for like all of 1 second then the bard completed their HO. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by OperationsX on <SPAN class=date_text>09-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:49 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You know why that is?  One of our HO combos involves a short-term buff and a debuff that fall nicely in our combat routine.  Making it an HO will smack the mob extra hard for us while we're at it.  So when we're sololing, since we're gonna hit the buff/debuff combo we might as well get a 'free' smack for the mob (or another buff!).  So it's kinda habit.  Me, I have a Macro button announcing I'm gonna start one so folks know.</DIV>

[OperationsX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OperationsX wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Hehe sweet :smileyhappy: , yah I'm not being classist to the bards here, I just notice, with bards and predators also that when they get the HO wheel going they like instantly solo it! I'm serious rofl.  One time I didn't even see the starter wheel go and I saw a sword instanly for like all of 1 second then the bard completed their HO. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by OperationsX on <SPAN class=date_text>09-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:49 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You know why that is?  One of our HO combos involves a short-term buff and a debuff that fall nicely in our combat routine.  Making it an HO will smack the mob extra hard for us while we're at it.  So when we're sololing, since we're gonna hit the buff/debuff combo we might as well get a 'free' smack for the mob (or another buff!).  So it's kinda habit.  Me, I have a Macro button announcing I'm gonna start one so folks know.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Excellent! Thank you Calthine, informative as always you are :smileyhappy: . I knew it had to be something like that, they just do it WAY too often. Hehe I deleted my macro button announcing HO's the day it was changed where it couldn't be broken, that's pretty old school heh, however still useful for you good scouts out there like Calthine that get the uber HO's going :smileywink: <P>And true dat Arnise, it just gets annoying repeating and repeating yourself, my server doesn't have much peeps, would think everyone would know about HO's by now lol, oh well, I usually don't make a big deal about it unless its super bad to the point where I can tell another member is getting irritated by it. I don't like to be a bossy group leader as much as I did before since I'm mainly a dungeon geek now (hardcore artisan)  :smileytongue:</P><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:57 PM</span>