avoidance of all tanks

[JNewby]

<DIV>I was wondering with all the nerf bats swinging at guards.... will we like monks be able to avoid attacks in a 360 degree manner? if not I owuld say that is very very unbalaanced</DIV>

[scivias]

Why is that? <div></div>

[KBern]

<P>Not unbalanced at all.</P> <P>Think of the reality of a monk in leather and cloth and a guardian in full plate.</P> <P>One is able to avoid much more while one is not.</P> <P>One is able to mitigate much more while one is not.</P> <P>Makes sense as long as it is balanced in that regard.</P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KBern wrote:<BR> <P>Not unbalanced at all.</P> <P>Think of the reality of a monk in leather and cloth and a guardian in full plate.</P> <P>One is able to avoid much more while one is not.</P> <P>One is able to mitigate much more while one is not.</P> <P>Makes sense as long as it is balanced in that regard.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it is not fair if plate tanks or anyone else for that matter cant avoid from the back like monks.. I meana fter all they can mitigate form the back cant they??

[Salastine]

<DIV>Plate tanks will rely almost exclusively on mitigation, which is effective at all angles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers will rely almost exclusively on avoidance which, until revamp, is frontal only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To create any sort of balance, brawlers NEED to be able to avoid from all angles.  No, it's not overpowered or unbalanced.</DIV>

[pootski]

Man, I miss being able to one-star. <div></div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salastine wrote:<BR> <DIV>Plate tanks will rely almost exclusively on mitigation, which is effective at all angles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers will rely almost exclusively on avoidance which, until revamp, is frontal only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To create any sort of balance, brawlers NEED to be able to avoid from all angles.  No, it's not overpowered or unbalanced.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ok so they can mitigate and avoid form all angles have more hp more dmg more utility</P> <P>while guards can mitigate from all angles and avoid from frontal have less dps no utility and  less hp... hrm dont see hwo that is fair</P> <P>avoid shoudl work from all angles same as monks</P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salastine wrote:<BR> <DIV>Plate tanks will rely almost exclusively on mitigation, which is effective at all angles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers will rely almost exclusively on avoidance which, until revamp, is frontal only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To create any sort of balance, brawlers NEED to be able to avoid from all angles.  No, it's not overpowered or unbalanced.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>and that isnt true at all without avoidance plate tanks would be toast...

[Salastine]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salastine wrote:<BR> <DIV>Plate tanks will rely almost exclusively on mitigation, which is effective at all angles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers will rely almost exclusively on avoidance which, until revamp, is frontal only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To create any sort of balance, brawlers NEED to be able to avoid from all angles.  No, it's not overpowered or unbalanced.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ok so they can mitigate and avoid form all angles have more hp more dmg more utility</P> <P>while guards can mitigate from all angles and avoid from frontal have less dps no utility and  less hp... hrm dont see hwo that is fair</P> <P>avoid shoudl work from all angles same as monks</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Brawlers have more HP than warriors?  That's a new one to me.  And all those fancy spells guards get to increase group mitigation/defense, shield allies from attacks, soak up damage from the squishy ones... that's not combat utility?  Meh, forget i asked, i don't want to argue.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quote from combat changes: "Brawlers can now deflect, parry, and riposte attacks from any direction, not just the front."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually, plate tanks DO avoid from all angles.. it's only their parry and block modifiers that are frontal only.  While i'm sure watching a warrior in huge heavy plate armor and a 150lb shield whirl himself around in circles blocking and parrying attacks from every angle would be a sight to see, i think it's beyond reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But i've seen enough kung fu movies to see that a martial arts master can and will avoid, deflect, parry and riposte effectively and constantly from every angle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The imbalance would be (and currently is) if the brawler's MAIN means of reducing damage was frontal only.  Yes, they can mitigate as well from all angles, but their mitigation is FAR less than a plate tank.  In the end, chances are we'll see more balance with this new system than was ever possible in the old.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[JNewby]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Brawlers have more HP than warriors?  That's a new one to me.  And all those fancy spells guards get to increase group mitigation/defense, shield allies from attacks, soak up damage from the squishy ones... that's not combat utility?  Meh, forget i asked, i don't want to argue.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>they have a higher base Hp now... we have lost our spells that give defense and mit.. also those spell that absorb dmg are useless... they dont work and iven if they did.. that doesnt really help our tanking ability IE being able to take hits... we have about 5 stupid lines that absorb dmg different ways not a one of them actually amkes a difference.. and lieks I said sitll useless</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>my original quest was asking if guards to avoid from all angles.. it was not answered I jsut got flamed.... you did partially answer my question.... the main gripe is really right now in my guild we dont want guards in our guild anymore cause u only need a few... after the expansion... with 6 tank classes only being tanks... its gonna leave alot unemployed... them making monks tank the same as guards is just gonna end up making one of the classes useless... and since guards do not do anyhting else... I am afriad it will by my guard that is useless.. and then I will have to go back to playing my dirge.... or the later monks will be useless with no dps and maybe worse taning ability.. just as now there are no good tank buffers since dirges and troubs are both now useless in MT group.. its really nice that they can buff dmg now.. but waht good is dmg if tank dies in seconds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[JuJut]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salastine wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Brawlers have more HP than warriors?  </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>According to the most recent beta update notes, brawlers will have slightly more base hp. There is a thread with some screen shots posted, it's not much to get excited over if you're a brawler. Especially since the screen shots show what the final hp are for a self buffed bruiser and a self buffed guardian...<BR> <DIV> </DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JuJutsu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salastine wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Brawlers have more HP than warriors? </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>According to the most recent beta update notes, brawlers will have slightly more base hp. There is a thread with some screen shots posted, it's not much to get excited over if you're a brawler. Especially since the screen shots show what the final hp are for a self buffed bruiser and a self buffed guardian...<BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>where is the link?</DIV>

[JuJut]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JuJutsu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salastine wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Brawlers have more HP than warriors? </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>According to the most recent beta update notes, brawlers will have slightly more base hp. There is a thread with some screen shots posted, it's not much to get excited over if you're a brawler. Especially since the screen shots show what the final hp are for a self buffed bruiser and a self buffed guardian...<BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>where is the link?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>They're in the thread you started in the guardian forum. I misspoke about the self-buffed though they are unbuffed. After seeing the numbers for both the monk and the bruiser screenshots compared to the guardian, I can't see any brawlers getting very excited about a bump in base health. I'm not anyway.<BR>

[salerene]

<P>I really can't give numbers, but I was in a group last night with a guardian on EQ2 live. Me level 32 monk in decent gear and most all adept 1 attack arts. 30 guardian(not sure on his gear) I had more HP then he did at start and I went down faster then he did.  We got mob by a respawn in varsoon.  We were doing good, but when it got down to the last 2 mobs (1 was a 32^^heroic skeleton and one was a 32^heroic golem) The guardian was in the yellow while I was in the orange. we had the golem down to yellow when I died, but the guardian was still in the yellow. Everyone was oop. </P> <P>not really sure what that says, but they evaced and I revived. As it is right now as a 32 monk with the same gear and somewhat same spells <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I can't tank the same type of mobs in EQ2 DOF beta. I know I've tried.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by salerene on <span class=date_text>08-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 PM</span>

[Mulethree]

<DIV>Makes complete sense to me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Put on a plate helm and try to see an attack coming from any angle but the front. Try to hear anything at all.  Pick up a  shield and try to use it against an attack that isn't frontal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now watch a martial-artist (monk) or a bar brawler (bruiser) and see how much more aware they are of their surroundings during a fight.   Watch their head and eyes, no way they would ever go into a fight with a bucket on their head.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems like a good - common sense - way to differentiate between the different styles of tank.  If it's not fair, consider it a balance for brawler's inability to use any second-hand item when equipping a one-handed weapon <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not a guardian, I have a zerker and a monk.  Glad there are some real differences between fighter subclasses and a bit more won't hurt.  Unequal but balanced is typically going to mean one subclass excells under certain circumstances, while another has different 'ideal' conditions.  This just means monks will have an advantage in a few circumstances where you can't position yourself so that the mobs are all in your frontal arc.  It may also mean plate tanks can't use their root-in-place arts in as many cases as then need to re-position themselves to avoid being flanked. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[scivias]

<span><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:it is not fair if plate tanks or anyone else for that matter cant avoid from the back like monks.. I meana fter all they can mitigate form the back cant they?? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Your toon is just clumsy, deal with it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> For crying out loud, let them balance the skills to the content. What is "fair" in terms of balancing has to be fair in its actual outcome, not before in theoretical questions and accusations.. we will see if this puts the guard on the list of threatend animals, and on the edge of extinction <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> </span> <div></div>