Test Server Economy or lack thereof

[SunT]

<DIV>I have been playing on test for a few days and am suprised at the total lack of economy there.  Today there were 54 total pages of items for sale vs the 1500 plus on my server.  Much of what was for sale was 'junk' imo.  Vender trash that soemone is hoping will sell and a few pages of raws.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is very little gear for sale crafted or looted.  There are some crafters so I have been able to find some items but most of my slots are still empty and there is nothing to buy to fill them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it might be a good idea to implement some of the early 'flaws' that were in the live system to jump start the Test economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harvest quests used to be filled by buying off the Broker.  This was a big bump to available cash and made a solid market for those harvesting allowing crafters unlimited resources.  It established a base price for raws and offered a great incentive for harvesters to bring back the resources.  If you are leveling a crafter, the last thing you want to do is run out to Ant to harvest a couple Beledonna roots to finish a combine.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The sell back price for crafted goods was also higher.  In the early days you could make a decent profit grinding out product and selling back to the vender.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think a few weeks of a roll back of vender prices and harvest quests off the broker would do alot for the liquidity of the entire Test Market.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NOT PERMANENT.  Just for a couple weeks to stimulate the market.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Danluy]

<DIV>Yes the state of the test economy is a big concern for me, as well as the very low server population.  Given the lack of gear (looted and player-made) and spell upgrades available, toons are not able to test with comparable gear or spell levels to what they would have on a Live Server.  I think this means the game is being balanced to the minimum gear and spell grades which is unrealistic IMHO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Otherwise, the numbers and levels of certain classes is frightening.  For example I played my new druid (level 11) for quite a bit this weekend and only saw 2 Wardens, a level 20 and 21.  I certainly hope the Combat Arts are being more realistically and widely tested on the DoF beta or I think many aspects of the new changes will be poorly tested in mnay ways when they go live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dan</DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>Danluyen wrote:<div>Yes the state of the test economy is a big concern for me, as well as the very low server population.  Given the lack of gear (looted and player-made) and spell upgrades available, toons are not able to test with comparable gear or spell levels to what they would have on a Live Server.  I think this means the game is being balanced to the minimum gear and spell grades which is unrealistic IMHO.</div><hr></blockquote> Respectfully, this is where you're (where "you" is everyone who thinks we're EQ2 hicks on Test) wrong.  There is a <i>thriving</i> economy on Test... it's just not on the broker boards.  Crafters are always offering their services, or being commissioned.  There is plenty of trade and barter, with goods and gold constantly changing hands, but it's not always obvious to the newcomers.  Every one of my skills is an App IV or an Adept I.  (I have no Adept IIIs because I've been holding off on getting my spell rares crafted until after the combat changes go through.)  I have entirely player-crafted gear with the exception of all my heritage gear and the few looted things I've gotten that are better.  I've got a house full of very nice furniture a bank box full of poisons, and even a few plat put away.  And by the standards of those I know, I'm only averagely equipped. Heck, I'm the slowest-levelling tradeskiller just about ever, and even I can have orders every week if I want.  (And me not leveling isn't hurting anyone either, because it seems like everywhere I look there are another half-dozen tailors.) So really, Test is not a find-nothing backwater.  It's just that because of the way the community grew, the economy works differently from the live servers.  A lot of it goes on in Test and Testtrade, and generally involves people making deals.  Asking nicely goes a long, long way on Test, because in the smallish population, someone may actually listen. That said, the number of pages of things available on the broker have dropped dramatically in the last week, since the influx of new players, and the quality and variety of the goods has dipped as well.  I'm at a loss to explain it properly but I'm sure it'll even itself out in another week or two. </span><div></div>

[Danluy]

<DIV>It's not so much a question as to whether the test economy works, it's whether test is comparable enough to a live server such that what testing does go on is relavent to a Live server.  I'm sure those of you who have played test for a long time have created an economy that allows you obtain most of what peeps on Live servers can.  The problem as far as I can see it is that there are not very many of you and for the server to really fulfill it's role, changes need to be experienced and tested by many of each class and level range in a setting similar to a Live server. Otherwise changes go Live and serious issues arise causing repeated patches, nerfs and fixes. The recent interest in test should be a good thing in that more players means more testing and more feedback.  The problem is because of the different economy they can't test in the same way they play their toons on a Live server and the testing currently is biased towards poorly equipped lower level toons. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The more I think about it the idea proposed frequently of allowing players to copy toons to Test might allow for the best testing of fixes, patches and revamps, however I suspect it would drastically change the server economy and culture for those who call Test home. But is that a bad thing if the end result is that changes that go Live are more extensively tested?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way people on Test shouldn't take offense to this, I'm sure most of you play the game well and provide the best feedback to SOE you possibly can.  The question is whether Test fulfills it's mandate and that IMHO can only happen with a higher server population and a culture and economy similar to a Live server. I certainly don't think of Test players as "Hicks" and so far I have been very impressed with the people I've met.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dan</DIV><p>Message Edited by Danluyen on <span class=date_text>08-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:47 PM</span>

[Danluy]

<DIV>In thinking more about this, would the Test server be more effective in testing changes and be able to be a real home for those who chose to play there if SOE offered some sort of incentive to EQ2 subscribers. to make a home on Test?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What if SOE offered say a half-price Station pass to players willing to spend at least 75% of their EQ2 play-time on Test and submit say 2 constructive feedback/bug reports a month.  Would more people play there? and would more extensive and better testing of changes occur? Would Test be less prone to disruption by an influx of curious players and would the culture and economy be more stable?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

The bigger issue that the O.P. may not be aware of is that the broker's search facility is currently a bit broken. Which means that it's extremely difficult to get searches to return results for certain types of items. Unless you happen to know the tricks (or how to work around the current bugs).As for the broker. Test is a small town. Everyone knows everybody (I can easily name off all of the 30+ crafters on the server, including what they make). Which means that if I want something made, I go straight to the source and we strike a deal. I sometimes sell stuff on the broker (usually extras that I ran off while I had the materials), but the majority of my artisan time is spent working on contract orders.(On the flip side, if you make yourself known as a troublemaker, you will find it extremely difficult to get custom-made gear.)

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EtoilePB wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danluyen wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes the state of the test economy is a big concern for me, as well as the very low server population.  Given the lack of gear (looted and player-made) and spell upgrades available, toons are not able to test with comparable gear or spell levels to what they would have on a Live Server.  I think this means the game is being balanced to the minimum gear and spell grades which is unrealistic IMHO.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Respectfully, this is where you're (where "you" is everyone who thinks we're EQ2 hicks on Test) wrong.  There is a <I>thriving</I> economy on Test... it's just not on the broker boards.  Crafters are always offering their services, or being commissioned.  There is plenty of trade and barter, with goods and gold constantly changing hands, but it's not always obvious to the newcomers.  <BR><BR>Every one of my skills is an App IV or an Adept I.  (I have no Adept IIIs because I've been holding off on getting my spell rares crafted until after the combat changes go through.)  I have entirely player-crafted gear with the exception of all my heritage gear and the few looted things I've gotten that are better.  I've got a house full of very nice furniture a bank box full of poisons, and even a few plat put away.  And by the standards of those I know, I'm only averagely equipped.<BR><BR>Heck, I'm the slowest-levelling tradeskiller just about ever, and even I can have orders every week if I want.  (And me not leveling isn't hurting anyone either, because it seems like everywhere I look there are another half-dozen tailors.)<BR><BR>So really, Test is not a find-nothing backwater.  It's just that because of the way the community grew, the economy works differently from the live servers.  A lot of it goes on in Test and Testtrade, and generally involves people making deals.  Asking nicely goes a long, long way on Test, because in the smallish population, someone may actually listen.<BR><BR>That said, the number of pages of things available on the broker have dropped dramatically in the last week, since the influx of new players, and the quality and variety of the goods has dipped as well.  I'm at a loss to explain it properly but I'm sure it'll even itself out in another week or two. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I am sure it works great for you who are guilded and established, however, for those of us who are new to test it does not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is nothing for sale and very few crafting.  Spin it how you wish.  You are in a big guild and have lots of connections so you can get whatever you need.  But those of us who just got here cannot spend money if we have it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have four gold on test, not much but should be enough to buy something on test considering app4 are 10s.  I can't find ONE thing to buy for my open slots.  Not one thing.  I dont mean nothing 'good' I mean NOTHING for sale.  That is not a healthy market.  That is a broken economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no supply.  I would say no liquidity but I cannot test it.  I am sure by the Broker there is Zero supply.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you know crafters and want a healthy economy then have them put it on the market and prove me wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I asked a guy to make me a spell yesterday and he had to go harvest to get the raws to make the paper, lol, if there was an economy there would be a supply of raw on the market.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are not trying to insult you guys on test, just pointing out there is an issue for us wanna be testers.  We want to help you debug the program but we cant even equip ourselves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get off the defensive.  Post a how-to for the test server economy if you wish but dont get angry that we are pointing out an issue with the test server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote: <blockquote> <hr></blockquote> <div>I am sure it works great for you who are guilded and established, however, for those of us who are new to test it does not. <font color="#9966ff">I was new to Test once too, you know.  So were most of us.  It was established well before I arrived.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>There is nothing for sale and very few crafting.  Spin it how you wish.  You are in a big guild and have lots of connections so you can get whatever you need.  But those of us who just got here cannot spend money if we have it. <font color="#9966ff">I've got access to my guild, yes.  But very few of the people I've made things for have been in my guild, because most people in my guild don't need T2 and T3 tailored goods.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>I have four gold on test, not much but should be enough to buy something on test considering app4 are 10s.  I can't find ONE thing to buy for my open slots.  Not one thing.  I dont mean nothing 'good' I mean NOTHING for sale.  That is not a healthy market.  That is a broken economy. </div> <div>There is no supply.  I would say no liquidity but I cannot test it.  I am sure by the Broker there is Zero supply.  </div> <div>If you know crafters and want a healthy economy then have them put it on the market and prove me wrong. </div> <div>I asked a guy to make me a spell yesterday and he had to go harvest to get the raws to make the paper, lol, if there was an economy there would be a supply of raw on the market.</div> <div> <font color="#9966ff"> I guess he just happened to be out; most crafters I know have boxes of basic supplies and raws for all tiers lying around.</font> <font color="#9966ff">Nearly every set of tailored armor I've made (the two exceptions being one for a guildie and one for an alt of mine) and 100% of the bags have been for people I'd never met who said in the Test channel, "I don't suppose anyone can make me a...." and I was the first one to volunteer.  That's how I got everything too, before I joined a guild that happens to have a surprisingly high number of people who enjoy crafting and have multiple crafting alts.</font> </div> <div>We are not trying to insult you guys on test, just pointing out there is an issue for us wanna be testers.  We want to help you debug the program but we cant even equip ourselves. </div> <div>Get off the defensive.  Post a how-to for the test server economy if you wish but dont get angry that we are pointing out an issue with the test server.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#9966ff"> I was not in the least defensive or angry... until I got this far.  I was merely trying to explain how it's been working and how you might find some gear.  Now I'm getting a bit aggravated, but my response to that is to wrap up my post.</font> </div><hr></blockquote> [Edited for accidentally coloring the wrong bits.]</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by EtoilePB on <span class=date_text>08-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 PM</span>

[Amise]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote: <div>I asked a guy to make me a spell yesterday and he had to go harvest to get the raws to make the paper, lol, if there was an economy there would be a supply of raw on the market.</div> <hr></blockquote>Sometimes I can't find the raws I need on either the fence or the broker.  On a live server, no less.    You can't always find everything you need every time you want it.  Does not equate to a broken economy. Not saying there isn't an issue, but I think that the biggest problem is just that the reality of test is different from what your expectations are.  You're expecting to be able to use the broker as a middle-man when in fact to get what you want you need to go straight to the source instead.  I mean, you did get your spell, didn't you?  Sounds like you did.  So if you need some armor, find a tailor or an armorer. </span><div></div>

[SunT]

<P>A healthy economy has supply demand and liquidity. </P> <P>The test server has demand, but no supply.  Without supply, I have no idea if it has liquidity.</P> <P>An earlier poster suggested that the search function is broken on Test.  This is correct.  Playing around with it I find there is more than I originally thought.  Maximum amount I was able to get was 111 pages vs the 54 I saw earlier.  So there is more available.  Still not much compares to the 1500 plus pages on a mature server. </P> <DIV>Still no spell upgrades.  Still no low end gear.  But there are more things for sale.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't expect it to be the same.  In fact I expected it to be the simlar to how it is now.  But that does not make it a healthy economy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have money but cannot buy what you need, then there is a supply problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am simply pointing out this issue.  And offering a sugestion as to how to jump start that economy so that it is no longer an issue.  I am sorry if this suggestion somehow offends you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is a Test server afterall.  And I do think we are playing it to offer suggestions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<div> I am sure it works great for you who are guilded and established, however, for those of us who are new to test it does not.</div> <div> </div> <div>There is nothing for sale and very few crafting.  Spin it how you wish.  You are in a big guild and have lots of connections so you can get whatever you need.  But those of us who just got here cannot spend money if we have it.</div> <div> </div> <div>I have four gold on test, not much but should be enough to buy something on test considering app4 are 10s.  I can't find ONE thing to buy for my open slots.  Not one thing.  I dont mean nothing 'good' I mean NOTHING for sale.  That is not a healthy market.  That is a broken economy.</div> <div> </div> <div>There is no supply.  I would say no liquidity but I cannot test it.  I am sure by the Broker there is Zero supply.  </div> <div> </div> <div><b>If you know crafters and want a healthy economy then have them put it on the market and prove me wrong.</b></div> <div><b> </b></div> <div>I asked a guy to make me a spell yesterday and he had to go harvest to get the raws to make the paper, lol, if there was an economy there would be a supply of raw on the market.</div> <div> </div> <div>We are not trying to insult you guys on test, just pointing out there is an issue for us wanna be testers.  We want to help you debug the program but we cant even equip ourselves.</div> <div> </div> <div>Get off the defensive.  Post a how-to for the test server economy if you wish but dont get angry that we are pointing out an issue with the test server. </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> Prove yourself wrong and make a crafter.  That is right, there is a whole market out there waiting to be exploited (for lack of a better word) and all you want to do is have someone do it for you.  Practice what you preach and fill that void, help "test" the economy if that is what you personally see as missing.  You have an opprotunity here so don't look at it as a handicap nor the responsibility of people who are mostly done with the early levels.  It is not realisitic to expect Tier5 crafters to make Tier1-3 gear for a few silver nor T4/5 adventurers to supply Tier1-3 treasure for sale.   Stand up and be recognized. On the flip side, it is no secret our economy is different than live or that live server players have better gear per capita.  That however does not hamper the ability to test anything.  We can buy/sell on brokers, fight mobs, do quests, etc.  In fact if I never shoped in the bazaar again it would not change much of what I can or cannot do testing wise.   In most cases we are not here as the balance line and the devs know our capabilities.  Cheers,  </span><div></div>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <P>A healthy economy has supply demand and liquidity. </P> <P>The test server has demand, but no supply.  Without supply, I have no idea if it has liquidity.</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG>Just because Test does not operate like the live server economy, does not mean we dont have a healthy economy.  We just do it differently.</STRONG></P> <P>An earlier poster suggested that the search function is broken on Test.  This is correct.  Playing around with it I find there is more than I originally thought.  Maximum amount I was able to get was 111 pages vs the 54 I saw earlier.  So there is more available.  Still not much compares to the 1500 plus pages on a mature server. </P> <DIV>Still no spell upgrades.  Still no low end gear.  But there are more things for sale.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>There is a reason that most everyone on Test does tradeskills.  We help those who help themselves.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't expect it to be the same.  In fact I expected it to be the simlar to how it is now.  But that does not make it a healthy economy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have money but cannot buy what you need, then there is a supply problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>If you have money but cannot buy what you need, the only supply problem is on your end.   You have the ability to do things for yourself.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am simply pointing out this issue.  And offering a sugestion as to how to jump start that economy so that it is no longer an issue.  I am sorry if this suggestion somehow offends you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Offends? no.  Suggestions are good, Becoming part of the solution is great.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is a Test server afterall.  And I do think we are playing it to offer suggestions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>No offense but, the only suggestion you are offering is to boost the economy, the economy is the least of the problems.  People come over to test and expect to find all their needs met with no contribution on their own part.  It doesnt work that way.  I have a t4 armorer, t2 tailor, woodworker, t3 alchie.  I have people sending me tells all the time asking for something made.  I always tell them, bring me the raws (unless I have them on hand), help out with the subs and I will do it for a minimal charge or free depending on how many subs they do or how many raws they supply.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>There is no free ride on test.  Dont expect our 'culture' to be like the live servers, you will be sorely disappointed or extremely happy depending on your willingness to work.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[natas02]

I don't see them making any small changes that would boost the economy. I don't think they want you to live on the test server, it's like living in the lab. I would expect stranger things, like other test server, deleted toon, no items, no money, different toon, wrong toon, instantly gain 10 lvlz, free items, coins, tranfers, class changes, sub-class changes, alignment changes, teleporters/bell to anywhere. What do you expect, It's a TEST SERVER!

[SunT]

<P>Can anyone point out where I or any that agree with me have stated we are Lazy and unresourceful?</P> <P>Can you tell me where I said I am unwilling to make a contribution to the server?</P> <P>Can you tell me where I asked the all be handed to me so I do not need to exert myself?</P> <P>I have my app4's.  I was able to Barter and trade to get some of my adepts.  But that does not make it a healthy economy.  </P> <P>That does not mean there is adequate supply.</P> <P>There is near zero supply.  At the same time there is a huge influx of new players to the server checking out the new combat changes.  Further compounding the issue.  Close your eyes and bury your head but the facts will remain the same.  </P> <P>I am glad you are happy with the current state of the test server economy, but I can assure you only the established and connected share your joy.  For the rest of us combat testers it is highly inefficent and barely functional.</P> <P>Each post I read I wonder less and less why the population of test is so low.  With all the warmth you receive from offering suggestions.  lol.</P>

[Swordmage]

<P>As was said above, if you perceive a supply problem, fill it.</P> <P>If a large number of new testers are moving on the test and are in the first 2 tiers, then the only place the matching supply can come from is from those same new testers crafting in the first 2 tiers and  supplying harvested materials and dropped items on the broker.</P> <P>Who knows, by the time the survivers of the current influx reach tiers 4 and 5, they may have made a change in the current structure of the economy by example (not by fiat). As they make test their long term home, they will be a part of the continual process of shaping the community.</P> <P> </P>

[Danluy]

<P>This is becoming a pointless thread as there are two distinct camps each with very different but legitimate goals. SOE ultimately gets to decide what function Test best serves.</P> <P>1. Camp A - Folks who have made Test a home and worked to make the server work for their style of play.</P> <P>2. Camp B- Folks concerned about the coming changes and want to start a toon and have a chance to have some real input into the changes before they go Live.  Most of these people have no intention of staying on Test long-term, at least not until the next major (controversial) revamp comes along and no real interest in the success of the Test economy or culture. They have a singular goal to test and experience the new changes in an environment comparable to a Live server. Since the current issues are Combat related they are not going to be interested in spending endless hours crafting.</P> <P>Clearly Camp A has a good reason to see Camp B as a threat and question their motives, just as Camp B is scratching their heads and wondering how the changes can be tested properly in the Test environment.</P> <P>Someone had a suggestion on another thread that maybe SOE should create a temporary copy of a Live Server and allow people to copy characters temporarily to Test Major changes.  I like this idea as it would keep the Test culture stable and allow Test to function as a Testing  ground for minor changes , yet major changes could be tested more extensively in a Cloned Live-Server environment. </P> <P>Dan</P> <DIV>Edit: Added link</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=23050" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=23050</A></DIV><p>Message Edited by Danluyen on <span class=date_text>08-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 AM</span>

[Daffid011]

Rereading my post I didn't mean to sound so scathing.  See what happens when you come to work to early. <div></div>

[tovin]

<DIV>If you have problems finding something you need in game, I invite you to visit <A href="http://www.eq2test.com/" target=_blank>http://www.eq2test.com/</A> and post there, or even here on the boards, and barter that way! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Much of the test economy is based on raws for finished goods, and whatever isn't based on that, is normally for goods rather then gold.  Not all, just much!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize this isn't a good way to many to play, but for those of us who are more interested in testing then in anything else, we make the system work for us, and we've learned to be more of a go-getter then a "Let what I need come to me" kind of player.  It's a requirement on many test servers across the MMO community!</DIV>

[Beghard]

So what? What do you want us to do about it. Are you just blaming everyone else. If theres a sudden influx of ppl then theres a larg amount of ppl at the same lvl and its their responsability to take care of themselfs. LVL50s dont spend their time making adept3 Static pulse. This is an issue you have to take up with the rest of the newbies that joined.lvl 45 players dont get lvl 25 drops. <div></div>