Harclave is a part of the problem.

[Chakra74]

<DIV>I'm removing this original post because this thread was about harclaves and not my guild.  Although my guild mates used this zone extensively it was never my intention to shed any negative light on them in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harclaves is the path of least resistance.  I completely understand their reasoning for using harclaves as much as they did, since it reaped the most gold and also provided very good experiance.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's the problem with harclaves though, it provides an outlet for solo players that scales with your level.  Since it scales it allows players to bypass content and play in an environment where there is little to no social interaction.  Even if someone soloed in a normal zone you would see them, or perhaps help them in times of need.  With harclaves this is not the case, they are seperated from the world other then the channels they speak on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The most important aspect of a Multi player game is the fact that you are playing with others.  Putting in a design that provides an escape from the very thing that makes mmpg's interesting is a design flaw.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's okay if harclaves is used from time to time, but using the zone dozens of times is not in the spirit of the game.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Chakra74 on <span class=date_text>08-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:21 PM</span>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR><BR> <DIV>If they think that Harclave would be the best xp even after the expansion, i bet they would be wrong....but also, if these ppl are your real life friends, why don't you just talk to them in person? I mean, a friend wouldn't turn down your request to grp for a little bit just for some old fashioned companionship, would they? (not much of a friend if they would)</DIV>

[3cho]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chakra74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I must admit that harclaves is a well designed and fun adventure, and I think everyone should have the oppertunity to experiance it a few times.  Unfortunatly an issue has arised from this dungeon, and it's killing the risk vs reward and social grouping in this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To put this in perspective, I'll tell you how this is effecting my game.  I'm in a small guild on the lavastorm server with some close real life friends.  I have not seen hardly any of them in over a month.  Why might you ask? They will only do harclaves and that's all.  When one of their characters finishes the dungeon, they then log on their alts and do it again with them, and then go back to their mains.  Not only do they not interact in groups because of this dungeon, they advance much quicker and receive much more loot then people who actively play the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They have managed to go from their mid 20's to their low 40's in about 4 to 6 weeks.  Not only that, they all have multiple platinum in the banks even after paying for all their upgrades.  I know many people will say, "Why do you care what they do, just play the game".  In a way it does effect my game though.  When half of my guild is in harclaves it doesn't create that much adventure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Their intentions are to finish their 40's off all in harclaves and to race to 60 also staying in harclaves.  There's currently around a 4 hour timer on the dungeon so you'll usually find them in there at least 2-3 times a day.  They stay in there as long as possible too, killing off every single thing they can to reap the most benefit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has anyone else encountered this problem with friends?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope that people can continue to experiance this dungeon, but hopefully the rewards for doing it will come into line so people will do it for the pleasure of experiancing it, not the grand rewards that keep them soloing it over and over again.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I just recently created an account on Test (want to see what happens to Wardens in person).  Harclaves is fun, and is certainly an area where people are likely to grind.  I did for a bit, but got bored.  I (and a lot of people I know) are not really into leveling just for the sake of leveling.  So we do harclaves every so often for the loot and the boost in xp (20 - 25%).  I get about 1 level a week, and probably do Harclaves twice a week or there abouts.  Most of the time, I'm out adventuring, helping guildies or raiding.  Sometimes the quests I work on are grey.  Sometimes I tradeskill (just got my level 26 wizzard to level 20 alchemist this past week).</P> <P>It's hard to say what the best solution might be in your case.  I'm sure that it's frustrating to be in a guild where all they do is harclaves... but I think for the most part people don't use it _that_ much.<BR></P>

[Chakra74]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Chakra74 on <span class=date_text>08-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:22 PM</span>

[Nemesi]

>They have managed to go from their mid 20's to their low 40's in about 4 to 6 weeks. while realistic...i dont see this leveling rate as a crisis. <div></div>

[KnightOfTheWo]

Harclave is fun & challenging but running through it several times a day would be mindlessly boring and mentally exhausting. I will occasionally use it for the same reason (level and loot) but 2 or 3 times a day? I think it comes down to a question of preference...if level is all that matters to your friends, I agree, Harclave is probably the way to go. But if your guild likes some variation in their adventures your friends would be out doing other things as well. It's all about perspective. Maybe your guild can schedule a raid or heritage quest night that would be fun but also bring in some loot and XP. Anyway, just my opinion. <div></div>

[3cho]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chakra74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Their response is why go anywhere else?  I get more exp and loot here and we can just talk in the guild channel and yes, they have actually said this.  One of my friends is a scout, so I asked him to help me with my jboots.  Long story short, when we hit feerott, it was his first time ever seeing it and he's 40th level.  Actually now that I think about it, he said the exact same thing about zek.  So he's 40th and has never even seen zek and feerott and people think there's no issue here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only that the loot is way too high there.  When I do a harclaves I usually get between 5 to 10 chest drops and it only takes about 90 mins.  Even the none chest drops add up like crazy because of the sheer number of enemies in harclaves.  When I normally adventure I'll do writs for instance, and usually it takes an hour to finish a writ because I need to wait on gate to go back and get another.  I'm lucky to see 1 or 2 chest drops during that hour, and many times I get none at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think there's an issue here, that goes beyond the social interaction of friends.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well, if <STRONG>everyone</STRONG> always spent <STRONG>all</STRONG> their time in Harclaves, I'd completely agree with you.  The drops are high, and the xp is great.  Some people are going to live there (unfortunately, it appears as though it's most of your guild).  But most are not, despite all the xp and loot drops.  Personally speaking, I'd go nuts.  I see harclaves as almost a chore.  Something to do if I'm bored.  Let 1 person ask me to do anything (even mentor to level 10 and go into the Forgotten Ruins)... and I'll do that instead of Harclaves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the issue may be more related to your guild (or rather the people in it spending hours grinding), than the zone itself.  A lot of your guild are missing out on a lot of the game if they spend all of it in harclaves.  Level 40, and never seen Zek... Zek is almost greyed out at 40....  Sad indeed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm going to go out on a limb and make a suggestion (this is not to try to derail your thread).  It sounds to me like the issue's your having with Harclave are affecting you greatly, because it's stolen your guild from you.  It might be worth thinking about joining a new guild, rather than trying to get Harclaves nerfed (which I think SOE is afraid to do.. given the backlash that's likely to ocurr).  Both of the guilds I've belonged to (New Dawn Adventurers and currently, Helanic Frost) were and are great guilds, with great people.  Some of them do harclaves, but more times than not, we've done other splitpaw missions, or work HQ's.  I, and many others have actually gated out of harclaves in the middle of a session to take part in guild activites (and get locked out) because we enjoy playing together more than grindind and looting.  But, that's just me, and the folks I play with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It sounds like you want to get more out of the game than you guild is willing to provide for you..... rather than wait for SOE to do something about it, you might want to take the bull's by the horn and find a group more alligned with you goals.</DIV>

[Ezri]

<P>I think you guys are missing the underlying issue here.  What he is trying to say is that contrary to stated policy SOE has accidently done something they said they would never do.  That is they have created a path whereby it is more rewarding to advance by soloing than by grouping (and it doesn't matter if statistically that statement is incorrect, its the perception that counts).  Anyone that knows anything about online game design knows that the vast majority of players will take the path of least resistance.</P> <P>It has always been the case that economically EQ2 has always been more rewarding for solo players than groups.  Unless you can figure a way to kill 6 times as many encounters grouping to get 6 times the drops that will always be the case.  You might, but what you end up doing in a group is taking on multiple mob groups with only one possible chest drop.</P> <P>I have a guildmate that sets his clock by when he can next log in and run through that dungeon.  Then he either crafts or logs out and watches TV.</P> <P> </P> <P>Erick Seablade - 47 Dirge - Kithicor</P>

[3cho]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Ezrick wrote:<p>I think you guys are missing the underlying issue here.  What he is trying to say is that contrary to stated policy SOE has accidently done something they said they would never do.  That is they have created a path whereby it is more rewarding to advance by soloing than by grouping (and it doesn't matter if statistically that statement is incorrect, its the perception that counts).  Anyone that knows anything about online game design knows that the vast majority of players will take the path of least resistance.</p> <p>It has always been the case that economically EQ2 has always been more rewarding for solo players than groups.  Unless you can figure a way to kill 6 times as many encounters grouping to get 6 times the drops that will always be the case.  You might, but what you end up doing in a group is taking on multiple mob groups with only one possible chest drop.</p> <p>I have a guildmate that sets his clock by when he can next log in and run through that dungeon.  Then he either crafts or logs out and watches TV.</p> <p>Erick Seablade - 47 Dirge - Kithicor</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> I'm not missing the point.  I understand his point.  My (and at least one others) counter to that was... if that many people were doing it to be a problem, then SOE would have (and may still) done something about it.  My counter point was also, not everyone enjoys grinding, and so even thou Harclaves is the most efficient way to grind xp and get loot drops, I dont see many people doing it that much anymore (at least on LDL).  We have differing opinions.  Ultimately what we think is irrelevant.  SOE will do what it will.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by 3cho on <span class=date_text>08-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 PM</span>

[Blissa2362]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chakra74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I must admit that harclaves is a well designed and fun adventure, and I think everyone should have the oppertunity to experiance it a few times.  Unfortunatly an issue has arised from this dungeon, and it's killing the risk vs reward and social grouping in this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To put this in perspective, I'll tell you how this is effecting my game.  I'm in a small guild on the lavastorm server with some close real life friends.  I have not seen hardly any of them in over a month.  Why might you ask? They will only do harclaves and that's all.  When one of their characters finishes the dungeon, they then log on their alts and do it again with them, and then go back to their mains.  Not only do they not interact in groups because of this dungeon, they advance much quicker and receive much more loot then people who actively play the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They have managed to go from their mid 20's to their low 40's in about 4 to 6 weeks.  Not only that, they all have multiple platinum in the banks even after paying for all their upgrades.  I know many people will say, "Why do you care what they do, just play the game".  In a way it does effect my game though.  When half of my guild is in harclaves it doesn't create that much adventure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Their intentions are to finish their 40's off all in harclaves and to race to 60 also staying in harclaves.  There's currently around a 4 hour timer on the dungeon so you'll usually find them in there at least 2-3 times a day.  They stay in there as long as possible too, killing off every single thing they can to reap the most benefit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has anyone else encountered this problem with friends?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope that people can continue to experiance this dungeon, but hopefully the rewards for doing it will come into line so people will do it for the pleasure of experiancing it, not the grand rewards that keep them soloing it over and over again.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>:smileyvery-happy:  LOL Harclave isnt the problem here friend. People are the problem. Have you been in a mid level group lately? On my 29 Guard I am luckey if the group lasts a hr! OH and lets talk about loot for a sec! The other day I was in a group and this wizard keept winning 90% of the loot. One of my adept 1 spells droped, he won. I asked him really nicely if I could have the spell. His responce "You can buy it off me!". I left the group faster then you could blink a eye. These are not the kind of people I like to play with. What happened to the days of grinding for 8hrs at a time? What about need before greed? And I could go on. Its no wonder why people prefer solo.</P> <DIV> The thing I hate the most is a key person in the group leaves and the replacment shows up and says " I only have 15 minutes to play sorry guys". Now you just spent the last half hr searching/waiting on a replacement, only to have to do it all over again in 15 minutes. If you can't grind for at least 2 hrs DON'T put lfg up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Here is another good one, the tank pulls and next thing you know. The whole group wipes because the healer went afk and didnt tell anyone. Or the tank is watching tv and not taunting and the caster/healer dies. Plain and simple if you cant give 100% to your group DON'T have lfg up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I will not even get into need before greed, I can't even tell you how many times I have seen (in lower level groups) a caster get a tank item or a tank get a caster item and not want to give it up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personnaly I think its only worth grouping with your friends or level 40 and up. Now we are starting to see alot of level 50's starting alt's and some groups are really good. But you still get the total newbees now and then.</DIV>

[Chakra74]

<P>I don't think my post was that unreasonable, and I was trying to bring an issue up, but that doesn't stop some person that uses harclaves over and over to 1 star me.  Ohh well, whether you believe it or not harclaves is unbalancing, and it reminds me of paludal caverns in eqlive where everyone hordes to the zone, except at least in paludal caverns people had to group and fight together.</P> <P>I heard the developers are reducing solo content as we speak and trying to bring grouping more into the picture and I'm sure harclaves will be a part of this change.  Well I hope it is anyhow.</P>

[thark]

<DIV>Well..The Harclave dungeon is a fantastic solo quest (once), but why do we get awarded so much xp for the monsters in there ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We aren't suppose to have this much xp since we have unnatural powers, we aren't suppose to be able to defeat these encounters solo, the monsters inside harclave should give you nada xp and once you defeated the dungeon it should give you some experience..Isn't that the point with harclave..to survive the challange ? Not use it as a place to grind ...I really hope SOE puts a stop to this rediculous source of free xp..Another solotion is to make the quest one time only since there really is no point at all to do it more than once..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for the sake of your guild..well quit the guild ..they are idiots..They only play to get as much xp as ever possibe and it doesn't matter if it.s the same mundane task all over again..thats just sick and sad and these people aren't suppose to play MMORPG's..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/Rigmor</DIV>

[CoquiDa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Chakra74 wrote:</P> <P>I'll tell you how this is effecting my game.  I'm in a small guild on the lavastorm server with some close real life friends.  I have not seen hardly any of them in over a month.  Why might you ask? They will only do harclaves and that's all. </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The problem isn't the dungeon...  It's the attitude of your friends you're having a hard time with.  I ran my main through Harclaves three or four times, trying things a little bit differently each time.  I've run my alts through there to see how well they do by comparison.  It gets really old really fast, though.  For levelling up, it's great, but if it weren't Harclaves, it'd be some other place they found that was great exp and loot.</P> <P>What I'd suggest is finding other players with an attitude that is more compatible with yours, and getting them into your guild as well.  Then you're still around your friends, (different play styles should not affect real world friendships,) as well as having people you can adventure and socialize with in your preferred style.</P> <P>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~</P>

[CoquiDa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR> <DIV>We aren't suppose to have this much xp since we have unnatural powers, we aren't suppose to be able to defeat these encounters solo, the monsters inside harclave should give you nada xp and once you defeated the dungeon it should give you some experience..Isn't that the point with harclave..to survive the challange ? Not use it as a place to grind ...I really hope SOE puts a stop to this rediculous source of free xp..Another solotion is to make the quest one time only since there really is no point at all to do it more than once..</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Obviously, we are supposed to be able to make that much xp off unnatural powers, be able to defeat the encounters solo, etc, because Harclaves DOES give that much exp and IS a solo zone, (grouping not even an option.)</P> <P>I doubt they'll get rid of that "ridiculous source of free xp" because they're the one's that put it in in the first place, then adjusted it based on the results people were getting from it.  Do you want SOE to force everyone to play your style of play?  Or should folks be able to have fun in the game how THEY find fun so long as it doesn't interfere with other people's play?</P> <P>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~</P>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blissa2362 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>:smileyvery-happy:  LOL Harclave isnt the problem here friend. People are the problem. Have you been in a mid level group lately? On my 29 Guard I am luckey if the group lasts a hr! OH and lets talk about loot for a sec! The other day I was in a group and this wizard keept winning 90% of the loot. One of my adept 1 spells droped, he won. I asked him really nicely if I could have the spell. His responce "You can buy it off me!". I left the group faster then you could blink a eye. These are not the kind of people I like to play with. What happened to the days of grinding for 8hrs at a time? What about need before greed? And I could go on. Its no wonder why people prefer solo.</P> <DIV> The thing I hate the most is a key person in the group leaves and the replacment shows up and says " I only have 15 minutes to play sorry guys". Now you just spent the last half hr searching/waiting on a replacement, only to have to do it all over again in 15 minutes. If you can't grind for at least 2 hrs DON'T put lfg up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Here is another good one, the tank pulls and next thing you know. The whole group wipes because the healer went afk and didnt tell anyone. Or the tank is watching tv and not taunting and the caster/healer dies. Plain and simple if you cant give 100% to your group DON'T have lfg up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I will not even get into need before greed, I can't even tell you how many times I have seen (in lower level groups) a caster get a tank item or a tank get a caster item and not want to give it up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personnaly I think its only worth grouping with your friends or level 40 and up. Now we are starting to see alot of level 50's starting alt's and some groups are really good. But you still get the total newbees now and then.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So true. </P> <P>I HATE when you just get a group together and just start clearing MoBs and a key class leaves and you are back at the enterance again looking for a replacement. There have been a few 4 hour exp. groups I have been in but I can count them on 1 hand...most are 30 mins to an hour before someone leaves.</P> <P>People like Harclaves because you can log in and start killing stuff right away and actually get loot. I have the worst luck on random loot so I am lucky if I win anything all night...harclaves you get to keep everything. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Smeegill]

<DIV>I do see your main point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But you need to get a better guild going or join one because the way you describe yours makes it sound like a worthless bunch of munchkins.  Is that your guilds name?  lol.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its just that its really stupid for people to only focus on harklave and ignore the game itself.  As some of the above posters said its really only fun for when your bored or leveling some.  But not 24/7 Harklave.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They have really cut back on the xp you recieve there so that in all honesty going out and farming green or blue solo mobs is pretty much as good if not better xp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fizbiz 50 Conj Everfrost</DIV><p>Message Edited by Smeegill on <span class=date_text>08-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:52 AM</span>

[3cho]

<span><blockquote><hr>Chakra74 wrote:<p>I don't think my post was that unreasonable, and I was trying to bring an issue up, but that doesn't stop some person that uses harclaves over and over to 1 star me.  Ohh well, whether you believe it or not harclaves is unbalancing, and it reminds me of paludal caverns in eqlive where everyone hordes to the zone, except at least in paludal caverns people had to group and fight together.</p> <p>I heard the developers are reducing solo content as we speak and trying to bring grouping more into the picture and I'm sure harclaves will be a part of this change.  Well I hope it is anyhow.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> I dont think your post was unreasonable.  I was just point out some counter-arguments.  The question you have to ask yourself (which may help you understand my counter points).... if you your guild weren't drawn to Harclaves like bees to honey on crack.... would you have made this post? Perhaps you're correct.  Maybe there are more people in Harclaves than I'm accounting for.  And I do agree, that harclaves will likely be nerfed more in the future.  But, from where I stand (and where the guild to which I belong stands), Harclaves hasn't had the negative impact on us, that it has on you.</span><div></div>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>Im tryin to level up a troubadour, she is still in her late 20's unfortunatly. I have had a total of 3 pick up groups that even understood the use of having a bard in the group, and im real sick of grouping at this level except for when playing with friends alts that know what they do.</DIV> <DIV>My main girls are usually in a steady group, all know their roles and we pull off things real smoothly, some of the low level pick up groups are almost painfull, due to what i have become used to. We have all been newblettes once, but many of us are past that stage, and dun wanna play through it again, this is where harclave adds a chance to <EM>relax, </EM>I can level without bein on constant alert for needed evacs due to bad pullings, bad healings, bad nuking etc. When my friends play low levels, i group with em rather than solo, im avoiding pick ups tho, and would even if it werent for Harclave, it just gives a chance to level when the alternatives are bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[LiquidSky]

<P>     You know, it seems to me that Harclave giving the most loot/exp is a myth.  I have done Harclave on very difficult a few times, but I find that Feerrott gives me the most gold/exp for my time, and is more interesting to boot.  I am in my upper 30's as a Fury, and the exp seems better.  I kill spider groups, lizardmen groups, and there is a never ending supply of them around.  Most of them are white or orange to me.  Some are blue, but that doesnt seem to effect the exp gain.</P> <P> </P> <P>     Of course, I am a level 50 carpenter, so most of the T5 goodies (teak, fulginate, ashen, hides) are a 5 sp find for me, after I spend 5 sec. to turn it into a crude item for sale on the vendor.  And on the other hand, most people cant solo the way I can......</P> <P> </P> <P>     AH well, ignore me...have your mindless fun in Harclaves......Feerrott is the place for me!<BR></P> <P> </P>

[thark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoquiDave wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR> <DIV>We aren't suppose to have this much xp since we have unnatural powers, we aren't suppose to be able to defeat these encounters solo, the monsters inside harclave should give you nada xp and once you defeated the dungeon it should give you some experience..Isn't that the point with harclave..to survive the challange ? Not use it as a place to grind ...I really hope SOE puts a stop to this rediculous source of free xp..Another solotion is to make the quest one time only since there really is no point at all to do it more than once..</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Obviously, we are supposed to be able to make that much xp off unnatural powers, be able to defeat the encounters solo, etc, because Harclaves DOES give that much exp and IS a solo zone, (grouping not even an option.)</P> <P>I doubt they'll get rid of that "ridiculous source of free xp" because they're the one's that put it in in the first place, then adjusted it based on the results people were getting from it.  Do you want SOE to force everyone to play your style of play?  Or should folks be able to have fun in the game how THEY find fun so long as it doesn't interfere with other people's play?</P> <P>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hmm..did you bother to read my entire post ? I said that harclave was a fantastic solo quest, but only once ....</P> <P>After that there isn't any point to that quest...Yes SOE made that quest and it's a well made one, but I just think they need to reconsider some of the rules for it..I doubt SOE has the intention to let players slowly grow up in level inside harclave, anyone who thinks that this was SOE's plan is an idiot including you my friend..If they let people do that things like the above poster wrote about will happen and that is pure wrong..</P> <P> </P> <P>/Rigmor<BR></P>

[Sacha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> I doubt they'll get rid of that "ridiculous source of free xp" because they're the one's that put it in in the first place, then adjusted it based on the results people were getting from it.  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Unless it is a bug, then they already have. I have taken my Mystic through to the Zygomid Spore King twice, and the only noticeable xp come from BEFORE triggering the Ark for the buff. Afterwards, I gained 0.4% and 0.5% by the time I got to the King, and gave up bored lol.</P>

[CoquiDa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Hmm..did you bother to read my entire post ? I said that harclave was a fantastic solo quest, but only once ....</P> <P>After that there isn't any point to that quest...Yes SOE made that quest and it's a well made one, but I just think they need to reconsider some of the rules for it..I doubt SOE has the intention to let players slowly grow up in level inside harclave, anyone who thinks that this was SOE's plan is an idiot including you my friend..If they let people do that things like the above poster wrote about will happen and that is pure wrong..<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Of course I read your post.  Yes, you said it was a great solo quest... once.  I disagree.  It's was fun more than once, though not much after that.  Your opinion is that it's great once, mine is that it's great a few times, other folks obviously feel that it's great over and over indefinitely.  Shouldn't the player be the one to decide how often they want to run through it, and why?</P> <P>As for my being an idiot for thinking it was SOE's plan for people to level up in there, I don't know what their plan was, but it is a solo zone, and they don't seem to have any problem with people enjoying it over and over again.  You don't know what their plan in making that zone was either.</P> <P>So why is it wrong that people are in there?  What the OP wrote about was some friends of his that have decided that levelling in Harclaves is more fun than grouping with him.  It's wrong that they're able to decide for themselves the location and style of game play that they find to be the most rewarding?  Why?</P> <P>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~</P>

[thark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoquiDave wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Hmm..did you bother to read my entire post ? I said that harclave was a fantastic solo quest, but only once ....</P> <P>After that there isn't any point to that quest...Yes SOE made that quest and it's a well made one, but I just think they need to reconsider some of the rules for it..I doubt SOE has the intention to let players slowly grow up in level inside harclave, anyone who thinks that this was SOE's plan is an idiot including you my friend..If they let people do that things like the above poster wrote about will happen and that is pure wrong..<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Of course I read your post.  Yes, you said it was a great solo quest... once.  I disagree.  It's was fun more than once, though not much after that.  Your opinion is that it's great once, mine is that it's great a few times, other folks obviously feel that it's great over and over indefinitely.  Shouldn't the player be the one to decide how often they want to run through it, and why?</P> <P>As for my being an idiot for thinking it was SOE's plan for people to level up in there, I don't know what their plan was, but it is a solo zone, and they don't seem to have any problem with people enjoying it over and over again.  You don't know what their plan in making that zone was either.</P> <P>So why is it wrong that people are in there?  What the OP wrote about was some friends of his that have decided that levelling in Harclaves is more fun than grouping with him.  It's wrong that they're able to decide for themselves the location and style of game play that they find to be the most rewarding?  Why?</P> <P>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok..you seem reasonable..and i'm sorry for calling you an idiot.obviously your not. But you on the other hand claimed to only do it a few times wich I think SOE had as their plan as a normal user woul'd do..</P> <P>Well...I think you know why they shoudn't be able to do it..It's like if they put up a mob outside qyenos that gave redicoulos much xp for some reason and all other monsters didn't, and this particular monster you could take all the way to lvl 60, If there isn't rules there will always be enough people to use it..This harclave quest is clearly no exploit, but it's mostly these people that will do these things aswell here they can't get banned and it's a safe.</P> <P>..it's all about experience and nothing else, thats why they have to enforce rules in the entire game world all the time..You can't picture every single scenario when developing quests and gameworlds, but the players will figure things out faster than anyone can say hello.</P> <P>.And I think it's sad that people are doing it, and the only thing that can be done about it is to rant for the dev's to stop it, since obviously it effects gameplay for others even thou they coul'd just mind their own buissness and stop bothering about a few kids doing harclave all day long..<BR></P> <DIV>/Rigmor</DIV>

[Zathrys]

Harclave is fantastic loot.  In my 15-20 trips through since it opened I have gotten 5 master spell drops, 1 was even for my class.  BUT, you will not find your prismatic in harclave.  Nor will you find the screaming mace, FBSS, or GEBs there.  And you won't get the fabled upgrades you need at lvl 50 there either.  I may make a couple harclave runs a week when there's nothing else to do, but when some friends call for a loot run in nek2 I'm there. <div></div>

[Croa]

The problem is the people, not the game. Period.  You'd be amazed what kind of fun things could be put into the game if it weren't for those types of people. There's no way to "fix" harclave without ruining it completely for people who like to enjoy it without abusing it. I don't know about the harclave loot.  I've done probably 15 harclave trips in total since it came out and have never gotten a master chest and rarely get even any adept1s for the class I go in with.  I was making decent money though. At lvl49 when going in I would come out with about 50g or more, but that was before they reduced drops. That's my opinion, anyway. <div></div>

[rjj]

<DIV>I would add the scribe and the alcomst are dead crafts now also. so many adps for sale on the broker you dont have to look for app any more.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it is all abut the money. pass out dubble exp to get evey one to 30 so they will  buy advencure pack put in harclives to get evey one to 50 so evey one will buy the expancion. put in combat change to make the game a chalinge again to undo the dubble exp and harclave. </DIV>

[3cho]

<span><blockquote><hr>Croake wrote:The problem is the people, not the game. Period.  You'd be amazed what kind of fun things could be put into the game if it weren't for those types of people. There's no way to "fix" harclave without ruining it completely for people who like to enjoy it without abusing it. I don't know about the harclave loot.  I've done probably 15 harclave trips in total since it came out and have never gotten a master chest and rarely get even any adept1s for the class I go in with.  I was making decent money though. At lvl49 when going in I would come out with about 50g or more, but that was before they reduced drops. That's my opinion, anyway. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Very well said.</span><div></div>

[CaptainDesti]

<P>I see this from a different perspective just because of my own experiences with groups in EQ2. Hardclave is a viable option for solo'ers to gain xp and loot similar to what they would get in a group. Why would someone do such a thing in a social game like EQ2? Because grouped shared debt stinks.</P> <P>When you gather 6 people together for a group, there always seems to be one player who repeatedly dies (guild group or pickup group). Either the tank insists on pulling more and more difficult mobs until we eventually die, or casters/rangers get to close to a second encounter, or someone goes afk without telling anyone, or the puller doesn't pull to safe spots, or some group next to yours is doing something stupid, etc. Different people have very different ideas about how often you can die and still consider the group good. Personally, I hate dying. It's humiliating and a time waster (i.e. spending too much time handling something you don't like to do). And, it's not always easy to get rid of said "chain death" person if they happen to be the tank or healer, etc.</P> <DIV>I can only speak for myself and why I do Hardclave instead of groups. If the game mechanics were a little different in groups, I would much rather group because it's more fun. But they aren't. Group shared debt is a grouping deterrant. If they wanted to encourage grouping instead, maybe they should get ride of xp debt all together while grouped or at least lessen it. I do know that in EQ1 I could die 10 times and after the rez's, my xp bar was basically in the same place. Not so in EQ2. Why group and chain die when I can solo and live?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[borg0]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CaptainDestiny wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can only speak for myself and why I do Hardclave instead of groups. If the game mechanics were a little different in groups, I would much rather group because it's more fun. But they aren't. Group shared debt is a grouping deterrant. If they wanted to encourage grouping instead, maybe they should get ride of xp debt all together while grouped or at least lessen it. I do know that in EQ1 I could die 10 times and after the rez's, my xp bar was basically in the same place. Not so in EQ2. Why group and chain die when I can solo and live?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Shared xp debt in groups is, IMO, on the verge of being negligible as it is now.  If they remove xp debt for groups, or lessen it, where's the risk?  There's no challenge to it if you remove xp debt in groups.  On top of that, if you removed it or lessened it, then you'd have people dying for even more stupid reasons than what you've already laid out; and then we'll have everyone complaining about massive equipment repair costs because there's no reason to try to keep a groupmate alive.  So what if you die? i don't care because i'm not going to get any debt from it, and YOU will have to pay to repair your gear.  The only reason to keep you alive then is to reduce the wait time for you to return to the group if there's no one to resurrect you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also note that in EQ1, even after a 96% rez, you have still LOST xp (even if it's only 4% lost, it's still xp that's been stripped from you.  In EQ2 you don't actually lose any xp at all, you're current xp remains exactly where it was when you died.  The only obstacle to overcome after getting up again, is that you're earning a little less xp toward your level advancement for a little while.  In EQ1, you could actually LOSE a level from a death, sometimes even a 96% rez wouldn't get you back up to the level you were before you died.  How is that better than the system in EQ2?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[CoquiDa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Ok..you seem reasonable..and i'm sorry for calling you an idiot.obviously your not. But you on the other hand claimed to only do it a few times wich I think SOE had as their plan as a normal user woul'd do..</P> <P>Well...I think you know why they shoudn't be able to do it..It's like if they put up a mob outside qyenos that gave redicoulos much xp for some reason and all other monsters didn't, and this particular monster you could take all the way to lvl 60, If there isn't rules there will always be enough people to use it..This harclave quest is clearly no exploit, but it's mostly these people that will do these things aswell here they can't get banned and it's a safe.</P> <P>..it's all about experience and nothing else, thats why they have to enforce rules in the entire game world all the time..You can't picture every single scenario when developing quests and gameworlds, but the players will figure things out faster than anyone can say hello.</P> <P>.And I think it's sad that people are doing it, and the only thing that can be done about it is to rant for the dev's to stop it, since obviously it effects gameplay for others even thou they coul'd just mind their own buissness and stop bothering about a few kids doing harclave all day long..<BR></P> <DIV>/Rigmor</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, I'm afraid I don't know why folks should not be able to level up in Harclaves for as long as they want.  From my perspective, it's missing out on everything that makes the game fun, but then again, they'd probably look at my style of play and scratch their heads wondering what I find fun about completing a big quest that takes forever and through large portions, gives very little or no experience at all.</P> <P>There have always been "experience and nothing else" folks around.  Before Harclaves, they camped in one spot killing the same beasties over and over and over in their race to level up.   Worse, because grouping gives better experience than soloing, they'd promise to help quester's get their stuff done just to get the help in camping that high exp content, and never follow through on their promise.  They'll kill long spawn nameds needed for quests just because they'd have to kill three regular beasties to get the same experience, and that might take ten minutes longer than just offing the named.  When they can't find "experience" groups, they join questing groups and complain incessantly that the experience isn't as good as they expected, pull things while people are resting up, figuring out what who needs next, or afk, and spend their time trying to get people to go help them level up in some area none of the rest of the group needs anything from.</P> <P>You mentioned a "what if" with some beastie parked outside Qeynos that folks could kill over and over again until they hit level 60...  So what if that was there?  How would it negatively affect my game play?  If that's how they find their fun, what would be bad about it?  If the content holds no interest for them, and getting to level 60 is where they find their reward, why should I object so long as it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game?  While I would find it tedious in the extreme, I imagine they look at my playstyle and wonder what I find enjoyable about doing big quests that take forever and have large portions of them that give little or no experience at all.</P> <P>Right now there are a lot of people racing like mad to get to level 50, so that when DoF comes out, they can race like mad to get to level 60, so that they can then duel but never have to duel anyone that is higher level than they are.  There's others that are racing to the top because they think DoF is only for 45+, and think they have to be that high to play with that stuff.  Still others are running an alt, and have done all the content they want to do already, and just want to get that alt up to high end raiding level.  There are lots of reasons people might do Harclaves over and over.  Should they really be forced to go through all the content if they have no desire to do so?</P> <P>The game is intentionally designed to accomodate different play styles and people with different goals.  For some of us, it's the quests.  For others, it's the big quests, and the little ones are boring.  For still others, it's exploring, or getting that "slayer" title, or crafting, or getting to level 50 just as fast as possible.  So long as these styles and goals don't negatively interfere with one another, I don't see any problem at all.</P> <P>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~</P> <p>Message Edited by CoquiDave on <span class=date_text>08-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:14 PM</span>

[Keegant]

I Hates Harclave, but I do it whenever I get the chance. I am not doing it for xp. I have even considered turning off xp when going in there, because it is cheaty. I am doing it because I want those stupid fraking Satin Mitts. It is the best non fabled caster gloves in the game and SOE made it no trade. So even though my wife got it her first time through she can't trade them to me. I have had 3 other guildies offer to give me them when they got them, untill I pointed out the no trade. I have done Harclave about 30 times in an atempt to get them and have not gotten them yet. I am of a level to get them, as I started doing Harclave at 44 and am 48 now (I invis through most mobs to get to the mushroom king that drops them, most of the times I go in).  Every other person that I have talked to, that has done Harclave even a few times, that is from 43-50, has gotten these mitts at least once, except myself. It is really starting to [Removed for Content] me the frak off.

[CaptainDesti]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> borg023 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CaptainDestiny wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can only speak for myself and why I do Hardclave instead of groups. If the game mechanics were a little different in groups, I would much rather group because it's more fun. But they aren't. Group shared debt is a grouping deterrant. If they wanted to encourage grouping instead, maybe they should get ride of xp debt all together while grouped or at least lessen it. I do know that in EQ1 I could die 10 times and after the rez's, my xp bar was basically in the same place. Not so in EQ2. Why group and chain die when I can solo and live?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Shared xp debt in groups is, IMO, on the verge of being negligible as it is now.  If they remove xp debt for groups, or lessen it, where's the risk?  There's no challenge to it if you remove xp debt in groups.  On top of that, if you removed it or lessened it, then you'd have people dying for even more stupid reasons than what you've already laid out; and then we'll have everyone complaining about massive equipment repair costs because there's no reason to try to keep a groupmate alive.  So what if you die? i don't care because i'm not going to get any debt from it, and YOU will have to pay to repair your gear.  The only reason to keep you alive then is to reduce the wait time for you to return to the group if there's no one to resurrect you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also note that in EQ1, even after a 96% rez, you have still LOST xp (even if it's only 4% lost, it's still xp that's been stripped from you.  In EQ2 you don't actually lose any xp at all, you're current xp remains exactly where it was when you died.  The only obstacle to overcome after getting up again, is that you're earning a little less xp toward your level advancement for a little while.  In EQ1, you could actually LOSE a level from a death, sometimes even a 96% rez wouldn't get you back up to the level you were before you died.  How is that better than the system in EQ2?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If you die in EQ1, you take a ~20% hit in your current level. If you get a 96% rez, you lost 0.8% xp for your level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a person dies 10 times in an EQ2 group, everyone looses ~30%. How is the negligible? Besides, the real pain comes from the fun of shard recovery all night. If that person is causing it by over-aggro'ing, etc. they will get kicked from the group but the damage is already done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a scout. How does my performance stop this? My life and debt is in their hands. Sure, i can evac every 30mins which saves maybe one of those. If I want direct control over this I can play a fighter or healer, but why not just solo the character I want to play in Hardclave and have fun instead? And I'm tired of being the "bad guy" all night who has to point out what everyone else is doing wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[thark]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoquiDave wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Ok..you seem reasonable..and i'm sorry for calling you an idiot.obviously your not. But you on the other hand claimed to only do it a few times wich I think SOE had as their plan as a normal user woul'd do..</P> <P>Well...I think you know why they shoudn't be able to do it..It's like if they put up a mob outside qyenos that gave redicoulos much xp for some reason and all other monsters didn't, and this particular monster you could take all the way to lvl 60, If there isn't rules there will always be enough people to use it..This harclave quest is clearly no exploit, but it's mostly these people that will do these things aswell here they can't get banned and it's a safe.</P> <P>..it's all about experience and nothing else, thats why they have to enforce rules in the entire game world all the time..You can't picture every single scenario when developing quests and gameworlds, but the players will figure things out faster than anyone can say hello.</P> <P>.And I think it's sad that people are doing it, and the only thing that can be done about it is to rant for the dev's to stop it, since obviously it effects gameplay for others even thou they coul'd just mind their own buissness and stop bothering about a few kids doing harclave all day long..<BR></P> <DIV>/Rigmor</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, I'm afraid I don't know why folks should not be able to level up in Harclaves for as long as they want.  From my perspective, it's missing out on everything that makes the game fun, but then again, they'd probably look at my style of play and scratch their heads wondering what I find fun about completing a big quest that takes forever and through large portions, gives very little or no experience at all.</P> <P>There have always been "experience and nothing else" folks around.  Before Harclaves, they camped in one spot killing the same beasties over and over and over in their race to level up.   Worse, because grouping gives better experience than soloing, they'd promise to help quester's get their stuff done just to get the help in camping that high exp content, and never follow through on their promise.  They'll kill long spawn nameds needed for quests just because they'd have to kill three regular beasties to get the same experience, and that might take ten minutes longer than just offing the named.  When they can't find "experience" groups, they join questing groups and complain incessantly that the experience isn't as good as they expected, pull things while people are resting up, figuring out what who needs next, or afk, and spend their time trying to get people to go help them level up in some area none of the rest of the group needs anything from.</P> <P>You mentioned a "what if" with some beastie parked outside Qeynos that folks could kill over and over again until they hit level 60...  So what if that was there?  How would it negatively affect my game play?  If that's how they find their fun, what would be bad about it?  If the content holds no interest for them, and getting to level 60 is where they find their reward, why should I object so long as it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game?  While I would find it tedious in the extreme, I imagine they look at my playstyle and wonder what I find enjoyable about doing big quests that take forever and have large portions of them that give little or no experience at all.</P> <P>Right now there are a lot of people racing like mad to get to level 50, so that when DoF comes out, they can race like mad to get to level 60, so that they can then duel but never have to duel anyone that is higher level than they are.  There's others that are racing to the top because they think DoF is only for 45+, and think they have to be that high to play with that stuff.  Still others are running an alt, and have done all the content they want to do already, and just want to get that alt up to high end raiding level.  There are lots of reasons people might do Harclaves over and over.  Should they really be forced to go through all the content if they have no desire to do so?</P> <P>The game is intentionally designed to accomodate different play styles and people with different goals.  For some of us, it's the quests.  For others, it's the big quests, and the little ones are boring.  For still others, it's exploring, or getting that "slayer" title, or crafting, or getting to level 50 just as fast as possible.  So long as these styles and goals don't negatively interfere with one another, I don't see any problem at all.</P> <P>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~</P> <P>Message Edited by CoquiDave on <SPAN class=date_text>08-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:14 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well, yes I agree with you..I have no right to judge other people's playstyles..But as you wrote in the end, aslong as these playstyles and goals doesn't interfere with each other there is no problem, but sadly they do interfere, in this case in minor ways, but they interfere..In this case, he won't get his "guildmates" out from the place and into the sun. Sure he coul'd always quit the guild, get new friends and look the other way until something new happens and he meets another set of these types of players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's always the players that dictate the rules in the end, If for example there where no one that would abuse Harclave it woul'd have  been a perfectly alright dungeon for it to be just like it is, but sadly these players will put an end to harclave at it's curren't state, and many other things that SOE will have to pull the plug on because it would have been abused for this or that reason..Just look at the latest plat duping incidents, innocent people got their accounts frozen just because "some" playstyles likes to get an advantage in the economy, and they are interfearing to say the least.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furthermore..Another extreme example would be if SOE released cheat codes for their game, aslong as you didn't use them It woul'd be alright for some that liked to do (another playstyle) it to gain super powers, It woudn't effect you..But ofcourse the day this happens I'm done with MMO's..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe It's because I'm a roleplayer, and was driven to these games for their name, MMORPG's, we are a minority in these games, I know that now, and sadly it's also we that get's most upset about these "players" odd behaviours(I don't wan't to be upset)..I wan't to enjoy a wonderful Norrath without strange individuals that tries to alter the physics in every possible way just to get the upper hand in a race that goes on, but that won't happen since I have to coop with every other playstyle that doesn't mix well with roleplaying.. <BR></DIV>

[CoquiDa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Well, yes I agree with you..I have no right to judge other people's playstyles..But as you wrote in the end, aslong as these playstyles and goals doesn't interfere with each other there is no problem, but sadly they do interfere, in this case in minor ways, but they interfere..In this case, he won't get his "guildmates" out from the place and into the sun. Sure he coul'd always quit the guild, get new friends and look the other way until something new happens and he meets another set of these types of players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's always the players that dictate the rules in the end, If for example there where no one that would abuse Harclave it woul'd have  been a perfectly alright dungeon for it to be just like it is, but sadly these players will put an end to harclave at it's curren't state, and many other things that SOE will have to pull the plug on because it would have been abused for this or that reason..Just look at the latest plat duping incidents, innocent people got their accounts frozen just because "some" playstyles likes to get an advantage in the economy, and they are interfearing to say the least.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furthermore..Another extreme example would be if SOE released cheat codes for their game, aslong as you didn't use them It woul'd be alright for some that liked to do (another playstyle) it to gain super powers, It woudn't effect you..But ofcourse the day this happens I'm done with MMO's..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe It's because I'm a roleplayer, and was driven to these games for their name, MMORPG's, we are a minority in these games, I know that now, and sadly it's also we that get's most upset about these "players" odd behaviours(I don't wan't to be upset)..I wan't to enjoy a wonderful Norrath without strange individuals that tries to alter the physics in every possible way just to get the upper hand in a race that goes on, but that won't happen since I have to coop with every other playstyle that doesn't mix well with roleplaying.. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hold up a sec...  The people that are enjoying Harclaves are the ones who are going to get it pulled?  You're one of those who's calling for it to be pulled.  They aren't.  They aren't abusing it, either.  They're using it.</P> <P>If I were to introduce a friend to the game, and he likes it, he should be somehow obligated to hang around with me or have whatever else he's found in the game that is more entertaining should be made unavailable to him?  That's a pretty selfish attitude, don't you think?</P> <P>Since when it is my job to keep my friends from being bored, lonely, or unhappy?  Since when is it their job to do any of that for me?</P> <P>Your a roleplayer, and yes, you are in the minority.  Personally, I don't role play for two reasons.  First, there's really not much one can do as far as role playing in a game like this.  One can dabble in the surface ripples of role play, but not really do more than that.  Second, role players tend to expect things like some involved back story that explains your characters quirks, which are almost required, and I just have no interest in that sort of thing.</P> <P>So...  should I be tossed from the game because I don't role play in an MMORPG?  I certainly shouldn't play on one of the roleplay servers because while I wouldn't intend to disrupt their enjoyment, my lack of role playing would interfere with their immersion into the game.  But SOE has given us other servers to play on, so I'm on Oasis.</P> <P>But you think these player's attitudes is odd, and that's why it upset you.  Have you considered that a lot of folks might consider it a little odd to run around pretending to be a gnome who kills giants by waving your arms around at them while your gnomey wife whacks at their feet with a big sword, all done because the two of you are mad at giants because one didn't notice your gnomey baby that is no bigger than it's toe before sitting down and squishing it into jelly?  LOL...  What is odd is nothing more than perception, rather than some concrete value, and so long as one player's "odd"ness doesn't interfere with another players fun, who cares?</P> <P>And no, my not wanting to group with you doesn't qualify as ruining your fun, whether we are friends or not.  Trying to put the responsibility for your fun onto other people is both unfair and unrealistic.  (Not saying you personally here, but that is the best way to phrase the point.)</P> <P>Your comparisons to the plat duping and cheat codes is red herring stuff.  Those are clearly in violation of SOE's EULA and TOS, while people camping harclaves is obviously not.  Not only are those examples clear violations of SOE's EULA and TOS, but have nothing to do with legitimate, SOE sanctioned, play.</P> <P> </P>

[thark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoquiDave wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Well, yes I agree with you..I have no right to judge other people's playstyles..But as you wrote in the end, aslong as these playstyles and goals doesn't interfere with each other there is no problem, but sadly they do interfere, in this case in minor ways, but they interfere..In this case, he won't get his "guildmates" out from the place and into the sun. Sure he coul'd always quit the guild, get new friends and look the other way until something new happens and he meets another set of these types of players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's always the players that dictate the rules in the end, If for example there where no one that would abuse Harclave it woul'd have  been a perfectly alright dungeon for it to be just like it is, but sadly these players will put an end to harclave at it's curren't state, and many other things that SOE will have to pull the plug on because it would have been abused for this or that reason..Just look at the latest plat duping incidents, innocent people got their accounts frozen just because "some" playstyles likes to get an advantage in the economy, and they are interfearing to say the least.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furthermore..Another extreme example would be if SOE released cheat codes for their game, aslong as you didn't use them It woul'd be alright for some that liked to do (another playstyle) it to gain super powers, It woudn't effect you..But ofcourse the day this happens I'm done with MMO's..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe It's because I'm a roleplayer, and was driven to these games for their name, MMORPG's, we are a minority in these games, I know that now, and sadly it's also we that get's most upset about these "players" odd behaviours(I don't wan't to be upset)..I wan't to enjoy a wonderful Norrath without strange individuals that tries to alter the physics in every possible way just to get the upper hand in a race that goes on, but that won't happen since I have to coop with every other playstyle that doesn't mix well with roleplaying.. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hold up a sec...  The people that are enjoying Harclaves are the ones who are going to get it pulled?  You're one of those who's calling for it to be pulled.  They aren't.  They aren't abusing it, either.  They're using it.</P> <P>If I were to introduce a friend to the game, and he likes it, he should be somehow obligated to hang around with me or have whatever else he's found in the game that is more entertaining should be made unavailable to him?  That's a pretty selfish attitude, don't you think?</P> <P>Since when it is my job to keep my friends from being bored, lonely, or unhappy?  Since when is it their job to do any of that for me?</P> <P>Your a roleplayer, and yes, you are in the minority.  Personally, I don't role play for two reasons.  First, there's really not much one can do as far as role playing in a game like this.  One can dabble in the surface ripples of role play, but not really do more than that.  Second, role players tend to expect things like some involved back story that explains your characters quirks, which are almost required, and I just have no interest in that sort of thing.</P> <P>So...  should I be tossed from the game because I don't role play in an MMORPG?  I certainly shouldn't play on one of the roleplay servers because while I wouldn't intend to disrupt their enjoyment, my lack of role playing would interfere with their immersion into the game.  But SOE has given us other servers to play on, so I'm on Oasis.</P> <P>But you think these player's attitudes is odd, and that's why it upset you.  Have you considered that a lot of folks might consider it a little odd to run around pretending to be a gnome who kills giants by waving your arms around at them while your gnomey wife whacks at their feet with a big sword, all done because the two of you are mad at giants because one didn't notice your gnomey baby that is no bigger than it's toe before sitting down and squishing it into jelly?  LOL...  What is odd is nothing more than perception, rather than some concrete value, and so long as one player's "odd"ness doesn't interfere with another players fun, who cares?</P> <P>And no, my not wanting to group with you doesn't qualify as ruining your fun, whether we are friends or not.  Trying to put the responsibility for your fun onto other people is both unfair and unrealistic.  (Not saying you personally here, but that is the best way to phrase the point.)</P> <P>Your comparisons to the plat duping and cheat codes is red herring stuff.  Those are clearly in violation of SOE's EULA and TOS, while people camping harclaves is obviously not.  Not only are those examples clear violations of SOE's EULA and TOS, but have nothing to do with legitimate, SOE sanctioned, play.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes..you are right again, I'm one of those people calling for it to get nerfed, but I loose the current state of Harclave myself in the process if there will be any alterings, remember I said I liked the quest and I like EQ2(The game, not most of it's players) very much..what I don't like is that if it's going to get abused I could live without that quest..</P> <P>If all players talk and reason like you, these games would certainly be a better place for all "types" of players, because you do what is suspected to be done from you, you join a non-roleplaying server because you don't think you wou'd like it much at those rpg servers.  I'm on one of the rpg servers, and even there it's like a sport to get away with calling  yourself a "ugly" name and put your rpg flag up, it's no respect at all..Again..it's the players that get off on these odd behaviours..</P> <P>I'm fully aware that we have to meet half the way, give some take some, and I have done so..In the beginning of UO i was all roleplayer just like your odd little description with the gnome(Maybe not that hardcore, but close<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), but that was along time ago now, it's all stripped away to my current situation, I do not "roleplay" in the common sence any more at all, I just play by all the rules set in the gameworld both official and unofficial rules, I do not use any hint guides or webpages and I only take hints from players I meet in person in the game, but there it ends.. </P> <P>But you show respect for us and you have my blessing both as a player and even a roleplayer any day, It's players like yourself that coul'd change this hatred nerfwar, but again there will always be jerks around the corner destroying for everyone else not only with things that breaks the EULA but with other things aswell..and this case is just smalltime compared to some of the situations that will come, but yet It made me react and it ended in this debate, wich was good..</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P> </P> <P>/Rigmor </P> <P> </P> <P>I wish it would be that easy for me to say, just ignore it and play your game, but sooner or later it will come up another issue and we are at spot one again..</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Ellywen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoquiDave wrote:<BR><BR> <P>I doubt they'll get rid of that "ridiculous source of free xp" because they're the one's that put it in in the first place, then adjusted it based on the results people were getting from it.  Do you want SOE to force everyone to play your style of play?  Or should folks be able to have fun in the game how THEY find fun so long as it doesn't interfere with other people's play?</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A nerf is alway spossible - and will probably happen with harclaves too.  Prime example - Robe of the Invoker =p  They obviously put the 20 power regen in to begin with... then changes their minds, because of how people geared themselves with that and other stuff kinda made the game trivial (yes, many more other factors, but hey, combat revamp is coming =p).  I have a feeling that if SOE sees a huge influx of 50+ players spending weeks on end in harclaves... they might, and should nerf the zone.  Personally, I hope it is, just cause I don't even want the exp exp/nice loot to be a temptation for me to level there, that zone is boring as hell.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit - people who level up 90% of their time in harclaves will end up interfering with other people's play - cause seriously, you will never learn how to play your class that way.  I know of one guy who PLed himself to 50, and told me afterwards he did it in harclaves.  Same person came on a pickup raid, won an ebon disk, and asked.... um, what is this?  His gear was craptastic, cause he didn't feel gear, resists, etc were important (since they aren't in harclaves).  Granted, this is just one case.... but when the people who abuse harclaves come out of their underground caves and try interacting with people, its a scary sight to behold ><</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ellywen on <span class=date_text>08-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 AM</span>

[merdo]

<DIV>To each his own if thats how they want to level more power to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>they can still get spell upgrades, they can still buy armor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>before harclave there were high level noobs that had crap gear just the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harclave is no different then if someone goes and grindes somewhere else beleive me i did and i do my alts in harclave the same its nice to have an instance zone where you feel powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But i can get as good or better exp grouping no need to ruin someones fun if all they look forward to doing is harclave i think sony still did their job in creating a fun zone</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It may not be fun to all people but a game that appeals to one person will not make it</DIV>

[Code2501]

<P>In answer to the OP, you really should look for players more suited to your play style. In the event you wish to take no initiative and ask SOE to fix your woes, you could always /petiton SOE to fund a Harclaves Anonomous support group, as what your really asking for is to change the behaviour of your friends.</P> <P>Personaly I see no issue with Harclaves; the xp is not superfantastic, but welcome when trying to round off a level and not able to find a group. Yes the loot is good, wouldnt say fantastic... never seen a master myself. I realy see no issue with the currentdrop rate , a positiveis that its an incentive for all the plat farmers to use a solo instance and not affect everyone elses game.</P> <DIV>I see the point of it affecting you throu affecting the behaviour of others around you as moot, the price of fish in china really does have some effect on your every day life too... but be realistic, its not a huge deal and you do have some control over your own life too ya know (unless your a consipracy theorist).</DIV>

[CoquiDa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>thark wrote:</P> <P>If all players talk and reason like you, these games would certainly be a better place for all "types" of players, because you do what is suspected to be done from you, you join a non-roleplaying server because you don't think you wou'd like it much at those rpg servers.  I'm on one of the rpg servers, and even there it's like a sport to get away with calling  yourself a "ugly" name and put your rpg flag up, it's no respect at all..Again..it's the players that get off on these odd behaviours..</P> <P>I'm fully aware that we have to meet half the way, give some take some, and I have done so..In the beginning of UO i was all roleplayer just like your odd little description with the gnome(Maybe not that hardcore, but close<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />), but that was along time ago now, it's all stripped away to my current situation, I do not "roleplay" in the common sence any more at all, I just play by all the rules set in the gameworld both official and unofficial rules, I do not use any hint guides or webpages and I only take hints from players I meet in person in the game, but there it ends.. </P> <P>But you show respect for us and you have my blessing both as a player and even a roleplayer any day, It's players like yourself that coul'd change this hatred nerfwar, but again there will always be jerks around the corner destroying for everyone else not only with things that breaks the EULA but with other things aswell..and this case is just smalltime compared to some of the situations that will come, but yet It made me react and it ended in this debate, wich was good..</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I believe that the vast majority of people join these games share my attitude of enjoying the game without interfering with other folks enjoyment.  There is always a minority in these games that find's it's fun in messing up other people's fun.  It's the nature of the beast, since those who enjoy griefing others can do so in this type of environment without getting the worst retribution against them being getting kicked off the game.</P> <P>There are psychological studies of the motives of the people that play these games, and the griefers enjoyment comes from being able to exercise the power to make people react to their presence.  In other words, the more upset people get, the more they are rewarded.  Logic dictates that the best response is to deny them their reward in the hopes they'll go elsewhere.  As the saying goes, "The best revenge is living well."  If they can't get a rise out of their intended victims, they'll go somewhere that they can get that rise.</P> <P>When you see the folks that are obviously on the role play servers to screw with the role players game, report 'em and put 'em on ignore.  SOE will consider the legitimacy of your complaint, and deal with the offending player as they think best.  Other than that, have your fun and don't let anyone screw it up.</P> <P>My example of why folks might think your role play gaming is "odd" was not meant as either my personal attitude or a criticism.  It was an example of a dedicated role player might consider great play presented from the viewpoint of someone who thinks role playing would be silly.  Consider how people who have no experience in these games would react were you to try to explain what you do in the game to them.  LOL...</P> <P>As you consider how wonderful things would be if only Harclaves were nerfed, think about if you really want to group with people who enjoy killing the same things over and over just to level up to begin with.  From what it sounds like, that's not your cup of tea, so leaving Harclaves in place keeps them out of the way of your play while not impinging on their enjoyment of the game.  After all, it's not very good "role play" for someone to complain that they aren't getting enough "experience" to "level up" fast enough in your group, and try to push it in their desired direction.</P>

[CoquiDa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellywen wrote:<BR> <BR>A nerf is alway spossible - and will probably happen with harclaves too.  Prime example - Robe of the Invoker =p  They obviously put the 20 power regen in to begin with... then changes their minds, because of how people geared themselves with that and other stuff kinda made the game trivial (yes, many more other factors, but hey, combat revamp is coming =p).  I have a feeling that if SOE sees a huge influx of 50+ players spending weeks on end in harclaves... they might, and should nerf the zone.  Personally, I hope it is, just cause I don't even want the exp exp/nice loot to be a temptation for me to level there, that zone is boring as hell.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit - people who level up 90% of their time in harclaves will end up interfering with other people's play - cause seriously, you will never learn how to play your class that way.  I know of one guy who PLed himself to 50, and told me afterwards he did it in harclaves.  Same person came on a pickup raid, won an ebon disk, and asked.... um, what is this?  His gear was craptastic, cause he didn't feel gear, resists, etc were important (since they aren't in harclaves).  Granted, this is just one case.... but when the people who abuse harclaves come out of their underground caves and try interacting with people, its a scary sight to behold ><</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>We'll see if it happens.  I doubt they'll nerf the zone.  SOE has tweaked and adjusted the zone they created, and I imagine they had a fair idea of what would happen in that zone from the start with their experience in providing these games to people.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harclaves doesn't really make play trivial.  If you're not careful, you can easily get too many beasties on you even with the super buffs in there.  It's not terribly hard, no, but you can't simply ignore any precautions at all whlie playing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for folks who don't know how to play their classes, there's always going to people who are genuinely not very good at their class, others who think they know how every other class should be played and don't tolerate any deviation, and those who don't fit well into this or that group for a whole slew of reasons.  Those that are very good will develope a reputation for that and have people hollering for their help on a regular basis.  Those that are very poor will end up with a reputation for that as well, and will be passed over by folks looking for help.  It's a variation on natural selection.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There were lousy players before Harclaves, and if Harclaves were eliminated tomorrow, the players who are lousy, for whatever of many, many reasons, would remain.  Personally, I'd rather have someone who'd spent the whole game solo because they're only interested in the high level game, but is fun and willing to learn ways to execute their group role effectively than the best technical player who has a lousy attitude.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is not knowing what an ebon disk is really that bad?  Wouldn't it take just a minute or two to tell the guy?  Did you know what it was before someone told you?</DIV>

[Sacha]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoquiDave wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>We'll see if it happens.  I doubt they'll nerf the zone.  SOE has tweaked and adjusted the zone they created, and I imagine they had a fair idea of what would happen in that zone from the start with their experience in providing these games to people.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Hi, I did post this yesterday but you're all so caught up in your argument about it that you might have missed it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>It has already been nerfed.</U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play on Test Server, not Live, and Harclaves zone has been <EM>severely</EM> nerfed. It happened the day of the combat upgrade. We are receiving regular xp up to the moment when we trigger the ark, then we get 1/100th of the xp we were receiving pre-update. As I posted yesterday, a trip to the Mushroom King gets my 45 Mystic 0.5%. <EM>Half a percent</EM> from the Ark to the King. The last time I ran the zone pre-update I got 40%. Thats a pretty huge reduction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I played on Live, I would be making the most of the zone before the nerf hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just thought I'd say it again as, unless its a bug, it kinda makes the whole argument y'all are having moot <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Lig]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KnightOfTheWord wrote:<BR>Harclave is fun & challenging but running through it several times a day would be mindlessly boring and mentally exhausting.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have to agree with you here. I can run Harclave once in a while but to do it over and over... I would stop playing the game if I was doing that. Boring as hell.

[Rhianni]

<P>If a person loves to ding and what they want out of the game is to hit 50 then they will only run harclave.'</P> <P>If a person likes exploring or wants variety they will not run harclave.</P> <P>Sounds like the OP needs to find a new group to run with that meets his needs.</P>

[Zathrys]

I haven't gotten xp from harclave in several weeks, they nerfed the xp for me as soon as I hit 50 =oP...but even when I was 49 I was only pulling about %12 from a harclave run, 20% if I actually had vitality. I knew a nerf would come.  Harclave was there to get the 30 something people to 45+ so they'll buy the expansion. Keep in mind not everyone playing now has been playing since release and everyone doesn't have a lvl 50 main. <div></div>

[Sokolov]

The consequence of the Harclave Effect can be clearly seen in the price of rares since Splitpaw was released.  The relative time players spent in there instead of the harvesting they previously did drastically reduced the supply of harvestables.  Not only has the price gone up but even finding them for sale has become more difficult. There are those who say it is because of the combat revamp and PVP, and while I agree those are contributing factors they were known before Splitpaw was released.  Additionally, as a crafter of Adept 3s I believe the amount of rares being "produced" pre-Splitpaw vs post-Splitpaw has shifted based on demand for my services. <div></div>

[Jai]

It's easier to raise the price and sell an adventure pack when its the best exp and loot in the game.  I think that's pretty much the bottom line here.  If they didn't make it so profitable for people to play through, they wouldn't make nearly as much money off it. 

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well, yes I agree with you..I have no right to judge other people's playstyles..But as you wrote in the end, aslong as these playstyles and goals doesn't interfere with each other there is no problem, but sadly they do interfere, in this case in minor ways, but they interfere..In this case, he won't get his "guildmates" out from the place and into the sun. Sure he coul'd always quit the guild, get new friends and look the other way until something new happens and he meets another set of these types of players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The fact of the matter is still that its not Harclaves thats the problem, the problem is that his guildmates are focused on grinding XP and he is not. Chances are if they werent solo grinding in Harclaves, they would be doing it someplace else. This past weekend my guild did 2 permafrost runs and a Nek2 run. Not a one of us was in Harclaves very much and the one guy who was, zoned out as soon as he heard we were doing a PF run. A majority of my guild spent 8 hrs yesterday doing Nek2 runs...OMG I feel so abandoned...nerf Nek2.</P> <P>Personally I couldnt care less what they do to Harclaves. I havent been back since the first time I completed the zone. However, whats going to be next? Get rid of the Scarecrow fields? The Giants in TS? The NBs in EL and RV? All of these are grind spots and will remain so. Bottom line, there will always be grinders and there will always be grind spots and nerfing Harclaves isnt going to solve that.  <BR></P>

[Mordith]

<span><blockquote><hr>LiquidSky wrote:<p>     You know, it seems to me that Harclave giving the most loot/exp is a myth.  I have done Harclave on very difficult a few times, but I find that Feerrott gives me the most gold/exp for my time, and is more interesting to boot.  I am in my upper 30's as a Fury, and the exp seems better.  I kill spider groups, lizardmen groups, and there is a never ending supply of them around.  Most of them are white or orange to me.  Some are blue, but that doesnt seem to effect the exp gain.</p> <p>     Of course, I am a level 50 carpenter, so most of the T5 goodies (teak, fulginate, ashen, hides) are a 5 sp find for me, after I spend 5 sec. to turn it into a crude item for sale on the vendor.  And on the other hand, most people cant solo the way I can......</p> <p>     AH well, ignore me...have your mindless fun in Harclaves......Feerrott is the place for me!</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree that Fee for your upper 30's is some of the best exp out there.  Killing the groups of lizardmen (solo encounters) yields an insane amount of exp.</span><div></div>

[3cho]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mordith wrote:<BR><SPAN>I agree that Fee for your upper 30's is some of the best exp out there.  Killing the groups of lizardmen (solo encounters) yields an insane amount of exp.</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I  agree with this as well.  Before Harclaves (when I was in my mid and late thirties), Feerrott was the place to hunt (solo or in groups).  Lot's of good quests (some were repeatable and provided decent rewards like Cheza's) and lot's of good mobs.  In the low to mid 40's, I find EF and LS both to be comparable to most SP zones (though I'm sure SP probably edges them out as it's dungeon).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Going off topic a tad..... my favorite zone has got to be Everfrost.  I like snow/ice (not the garbage we get here in MD, but the real stuff) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Permafrost is one of the most gorgeous zones I've been in.  I purposely pick as many writs as I can in EF just so I can be out there and breath (virtually of course) the cool crisp air.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At some point, I think I forgot this was supposed to be about the Test server <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Most of my experiences have been on LDL, so I think this will be my last post on the subject.  To the OP, whatever happens, I hope everything get's worked out for ya.</DIV>

[Ly]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I think you guys are missing the underlying issue here.  What he is trying to say is that contrary to stated policy SOE has accidently done something they said they would never do.  That is they have created a path whereby it is more rewarding to advance by soloing than by grouping (and it doesn't matter if statistically that statement is incorrect, its the perception that counts).</FONT> <HR> </DIV> <P>Not really. It depends on your perception of "more rewarding." I'd venture to say that the majority of the playerbase do <STRONG>NOT</STRONG> find Harclave's a fun environment to do repetitively. It has experience and loot, but is horrendously boring to do time and time again. I think it's going a bit far to say Harclave's is outside of the game's vision, </P>

[Suta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>So true.</P> <P>I HATE when you just get a group together and just start clearing MoBs and a key class leaves and you are back at the enterance again looking for a replacement. There have been a few 4 hour exp. groups I have been in but I can count them on 1 hand...most are 30 mins to an hour before someone leaves.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> This is why we seriously need a more advanced /LFG window.   One that has notes next to it so you can find people who want the exact same quest/xp area as you do.</P> <P>Worked wonders for me in EQ1.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[seistaan1]

<P>This game caters to a vast varity of players. </P> <P>!.Questors who want to see every zone do ever quest and seek lore.</P> <P>2. Exp seekign folks who want to race to the end game and LOVE to grind.</P> <P>3. Group minded folks who want the socail playing and events.</P> <P>4. Soloers who want to just be able to do what they want on their own.</P> <P>5 Crafters who want to be the richest, get the most dicoveries, or simply be a merchant extrodinare.</P> <P>5. Raiders who lvled up just for raid content and get the most fun out of just raiding.</P> <P>Harclave helps fill a place for folks seeking to solo, exp grind, get funds to craft and pay for fuel or lvl up an alt to raid. Nerfing it wont really serve anything because if its not there folks will just go out and find another group of mobs to fill that purpose. It wont create folks wanting to quest or group because if they wanted to do that they would be right now.  :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>For me i lvled up doing a little of every thing with my main and enjoyed alot of content. But now I do harclave with my alt sometimes when im not raiding and I dont have time to group. It is something i can do solo thats not overly time consuming. </P> <P>I think one of the issues that your really facing is that many folks that play are allready capped at 50 or are very close so theres really no need to seek out groups unless its for an alt. And as for me i have no desire to go through the same content i did with my first toon. Running through mana stone again or other heritage with an alt is not fun its just a chore to be done ....allmost like going to the dentist... you know whats going to happen It will likely hurt(debt) and its going to cost you money.(palladium cluster)</P> <P>Splitpaw in genteral adds new content and harclave gives you something you can do if your pressed for time or have to afk alot. When i do group its often with guildies with their own alts. With the new expansion coming i can see why your friends want to hustle to 50 theres going to be a whole new world to explore. </P> <P>But the best solution for you is to find players in a guild seeking to play the game in your style. There are many different guilds out there im sure theres one that will fit your needs. Dont get on your friends for playing the game they want to in the style that they want. Harclave just replaced mobs that have been used for that purpose for a long time. .....only difference is they are grinding in one spot as opposed to switching mobs every five lvls. And as for loot if you go out and consistantly kill you will make the same amount of plat grinding writs for guild status. Variaty in play options is one of the reasons EQ2 is so great. Find your self a guild that fits or recruit some players to fit you. </P>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thark wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well..The Harclave dungeon is a fantastic solo quest (once), but why do we get awarded so much xp for the monsters in there ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We aren't suppose to have this much xp since we have unnatural powers, we aren't suppose to be able to defeat these encounters solo, the monsters inside harclave should give you nada xp and once you defeated the dungeon it should give you some experience..Isn't that the point with harclave..to survive the challange ? Not use it as a place to grind ...I really hope SOE puts a stop to this rediculous source of free xp..Another solotion is to make the quest one time only since there really is no point at all to do it more than once..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for the sake of your guild..well quit the guild ..they are idiots..They only play to get as much xp as ever possibe and it doesn't matter if it.s the same mundane task all over again..thats just sick and sad and these people aren't suppose to play MMORPG's..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/Rigmor</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I just love it when someone yells nerf just to bring everyone else's playstyle in line with their own.</P> <P>On your last sentence, you really have NO idea what MMORPG stands for do you?</P>

[Rhysati]

<span><blockquote><hr>borg023 wrote: <blockquote> <hr> CaptainDestiny wrote: <div> </div> <div>I can only speak for myself and why I do Hardclave instead of groups. If the game mechanics were a little different in groups, I would much rather group because it's more fun. But they aren't. Group shared debt is a grouping deterrant. If they wanted to encourage grouping instead, maybe they should get ride of xp debt all together while grouped or at least lessen it. I do know that in EQ1 I could die 10 times and after the rez's, my xp bar was basically in the same place. Not so in EQ2. Why group and chain die when I can solo and live?</div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Shared xp debt in groups is, IMO, on the verge of being negligible as it is now.  If they remove xp debt for groups, or lessen it, where's the risk?  There's no challenge to it if you remove xp debt in groups.  On top of that, if you removed it or lessened it, then you'd have people dying for even more stupid reasons than what you've already laid out; and then we'll have everyone complaining about massive equipment repair costs because there's no reason to try to keep a groupmate alive.  So what if you die? i don't care because i'm not going to get any debt from it, and YOU will have to pay to repair your gear.  The only reason to keep you alive then is to reduce the wait time for you to return to the group if there's no one to resurrect you.</div> <div> </div> <div>Also note that in EQ1, even after a 96% rez, you have still LOST xp (even if it's only 4% lost, it's still xp that's been stripped from you.  In EQ2 you don't actually lose any xp at all, you're current xp remains exactly where it was when you died.  The only obstacle to overcome after getting up again, is that you're earning a little less xp toward your level advancement for a little while.  In EQ1, you could actually LOSE a level from a death, sometimes even a 96% rez wouldn't get you back up to the level you were before you died.  How is that better than the system in EQ2?</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Uh...huh....so every other MMO on the planet that does NOT have group XP debt must have horrible problems right?  Oh wait...none of them do.  Take WoW for example.  The only risk is having to walk back and pay repairs.  Do people just let others die?  No.  That would be stupid and they would get kicked from the group with that attitude. Of course, you brought up EQ1.  And you talked about the horrible loss of XP.  But notice that in EQ1, people didn't just let others die for the hell of it.  It didn't effect the group's XP or Repairs, but they kept them living.  Gee...what a concept.</span><div></div>

[borg0]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rhysati wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> borg023 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CaptainDestiny wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can only speak for myself and why I do Hardclave instead of groups. If the game mechanics were a little different in groups, I would much rather group because it's more fun. But they aren't. Group shared debt is a grouping deterrant. If they wanted to encourage grouping instead, maybe they should get ride of xp debt all together while grouped or at least lessen it. I do know that in EQ1 I could die 10 times and after the rez's, my xp bar was basically in the same place. Not so in EQ2. Why group and chain die when I can solo and live?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Shared xp debt in groups is, IMO, on the verge of being negligible as it is now.  If they remove xp debt for groups, or lessen it, where's the risk?  There's no challenge to it if you remove xp debt in groups.  On top of that, if you removed it or lessened it, then you'd have people dying for even more stupid reasons than what you've already laid out; and then we'll have everyone complaining about massive equipment repair costs because there's no reason to try to keep a groupmate alive.  So what if you die? i don't care because i'm not going to get any debt from it, and YOU will have to pay to repair your gear.  The only reason to keep you alive then is to reduce the wait time for you to return to the group if there's no one to resurrect you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also note that in EQ1, even after a 96% rez, you have still LOST xp (even if it's only 4% lost, it's still xp that's been stripped from you.  In EQ2 you don't actually lose any xp at all, you're current xp remains exactly where it was when you died.  The only obstacle to overcome after getting up again, is that you're earning a little less xp toward your level advancement for a little while.  In EQ1, you could actually LOSE a level from a death, sometimes even a 96% rez wouldn't get you back up to the level you were before you died.  How is that better than the system in EQ2?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Uh...huh....so every other MMO on the planet that does NOT have group XP debt must have horrible problems right?  Oh wait...none of them do.  Take WoW for example.  The only risk is having to walk back and pay repairs.  Do people just let others die?  No.  That would be stupid and they would get kicked from the group with that attitude.<BR></P> <HR> <P><BR><FONT color=#cc99ff>Precisely.  And just like you've mentioned with WoW, the death-penalty in EQ2, as i said, is not that big of a deal to begin with anyway, SO WHY LESSEN IT?  The amount of xp debt you incur when a groupmate falls, is not really all that much, so why take it out?</FONT></P> <HR> <P> Of course, you brought up EQ1.  And you talked about the horrible loss of XP.  But notice that in EQ1, people didn't just let others die for the hell of it.  It didn't effect the group's XP or Repairs, but they kept them living.  Gee...what a concept.<BR></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Actually, CaptainDestiny brought up EQ1 first, and, quite frankly, i'm growing rather sick of people who want EQ2 to be "just like" EQ1.  EQ1 is still up and running, you want EQ1, go play it, and stop insisting that another game be made into it's twin.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>You were kept alive in EQ1 because of the potentially devastating down time that could result from a player death.  Not to mention corpse recovery, sometimes from quite sticky areas.  No, the group didn't incur debt because of your death, nor did they have to make repairs, but the potential of xp lost to down-time was definitely a deterrent to just letting someone die.  Not only that, but in a lot of higher level situations in EQ1, if even one key group member fell, the rest were usually soon to follow; and in group wipes, the xp lost to downtime could be quite frustrating to some folks.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>So, you see, there are <EM>reasons</EM> to keep your groupmates alive in EQ1, just like there are reasons for doing the same thing in EQ2.  Lessening the already meager death penalty in EQ2 would be a bad move IMO.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P>

[Mafdet]

<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>I have two toons I semi-regularly take through Harclaves. One is my main who started visiting SP in her mid-thirties and is now mid-fourties. One is an alt who hit SP at 20 and is now 29.</P> <P>For my main, while in her thirties, as has been mentioned, I got just as much/more exp in Feerott soloing and duoing and in RE grouping. Now in mid-fourties, I get more exp in LS/EF/PF with group. My alt Warden got better exp clearing the undead pool in southern TS soloing and clearing giants while grouped when started and now gets better exp in RoV solo or grouped.</P> <P>My main does hit Harclaves more now when I do solo, not because I get more exp than anywhere else but because it *feels* like I'm doing more,,, my guardian is getting slower and slower at solo fights as I go up in level but if I'm in EF soloing the green to white solo mobs which *seem* to take forever each battle, I come out with almost exactly the same exp after 2hrs that I would have gotten from a full clearing of Harclaves. It's just that there's so much more movement and mobs and swinging and death and decay around me in Harclaves that the time passes much more quickly for me so when I don't have a group, I'm there.</P> <P>For my alt, who solos much faster, it's still an occassional change of pace. About once a week she does the arena, trying to get an upgraded necklace to the one she got on her first visit and then hits Harclaves since she's there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>IMO Harclaves has been tuned down enough and the coming changes that someone was nice enough to post about are totally uncalled for, just another nerf due to whiney peeps that want a wonderful variety-packed world narrowed down to their individual, tunnel vision-based play style. There are enough peeps in this game that it's just about guaranteed you can find some like-minded folks if you look,,, guildies not hanging with you? find some peeps that will,,, not getting comparable exp to Harclaves when soloing/grouping,,, go fight somewhere else where you will. Please quit trying to make the world pay just because you aren't having fun at the moment over something that you can control a heck of a lot easier than Sony can, i.e., who you hang with.</P></FONT></DIV>

[KBern]

<DIV>Well your friends are not playing to play.  They are playing to sit in Harclaves to buy more loot to sit in Harclaves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I actually feel bad for them if that is what they do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harclaves is great, but only if I can only solo, and have things to do around the house.  I can go afk safely...I can take breaks etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Loot is ok, but better in other places.  Tell your friends to try some dungeons...Obelisk zone, Draftling Tower, Runnyeye, Sol Eye, Perma, etc etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Loot and exp is better in a good group in these areas.  When I duo with my brothers conjurer with my necro, we blow harclaves exp away easily even in outdoor zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harclaves is fine the way it is, it is the people who dont really want to play the game that you seemed to be worried about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Find some friends who enjoy playing, and not grinding, exploring and not staring at walls, and I think your problem with harclaves will go away.</DIV>

[schrammy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Keegantir wrote:<BR>I Hates Harclave, but I do it whenever I get the chance. I am not doing it for xp. I have even considered turning off xp when going in there, because it is cheaty. I am doing it because I want those stupid fraking Satin Mitts. It is the best non fabled caster gloves in the game and SOE made it no trade. So even though my wife got it her first time through she can't trade them to me. I have had 3 other guildies offer to give me them when they got them, untill I pointed out the no trade. I have done Harclave about 30 times in an atempt to get them and have not gotten them yet. I am of a level to get them, as I started doing Harclave at 44 and am 48 now (I invis through most mobs to get to the mushroom king that drops them, most of the times I go in).  Every other person that I have talked to, that has done Harclave even a few times, that is from 43-50, has gotten these mitts at least once, except myself. It is really starting to [Removed for Content] me the frak off. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL i got the mitts from a drop in the upper tunnels, off one of th regular gnolls.</P> <P>Why'd you think only the king drops them?</P>

[Drtydog]

To put this in perspective, I'll tell you how this is effecting my game.  I'm in a small guild on the lavastorm server with some close real life friends.  I have not seen hardly any of them in over a month.  Why might you ask? They will only do harclaves and that's all.  When one of their characters finishes the dungeon, they then log on their alts and do it again with them, and then go back to their mains.  Not only do they not interact in groups because of this dungeon, they advance much quicker and receive much more loot then people who actively play the game <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem isn't that Harclave needs to be nerfed, the problem is that SOE needs to un-nerf the rest of the world LOL</DIV>

[redhatge]

<DIV>I'm a healer and I'm also in a raid guild and I like raiding, most of the time we raid at night. I the solo parts of my quests with friend of mine who is also a healer during the weekends days if the wife lets me play <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I usually do harclaive when the raid is full or nothing else is going on. xp per second soloing is the best in harclaive. xp is amazing for lvl 20-40 toons, after 40 it slows down and after 45 without vitality it's pointless to do harclaive unless you can't find a group or you need cash. if you are 45+ and you don't have any money thne you are doing something wrong. Sol Eye, Perma and some parts of CT are the best places to xp with a group. You could spend 8 hours in Sol Eye fighting down to the bottom. The zone is insanely huge. Also I you want to get good loot harclaive it not the place to go. you want to raid nothing is better then raid loot <U>nothing.</U></DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV>btw, i'm on the everfrost server and I have a request. Would you mind giving rangers and chanters 2x xp in harclaive to encourage people to play the class. lol we need them</DIV>

[Dragonslapp]

<P> </P> <P>    I have two points to comment on in this thread. First, you folks need to quit blaming "Harclave and Splitpaw" for your lack of social interaction. I do agree that on the live and test servers there are alot of folks flooding the markets with Adepts and gear that drops in there. I feel bad for the spell makers trying to make a buck with APP IV's. So much, in fact, that although I don't need them I purchase a few APP's each day to try and help out the economy of those working hard at the craft. However, saying that the AP has taken away from the "group" environment and caused the game to be less enjoyable is a little selfish on behalf of those posting with that mentality. If folks want to group, they'll group. If the want to solo, they'll solo. But to complain that you can't group because other players are enjoying a different aspect of the game is silly, if not moronic. What compounds the problem is most of the folks complaining are IN GUILDS. If you can't get a group from your guildies, and even worse, with your friends, maybe you need to rethink being a member of that guild and your "friends". Everyone pays to play this game. Quit trying to "force" other players to play the way YOU think it should be played. Enough has been nerfed due to the whining that the SPS is not that much of an incentive for camping as it is so quit worring.</P> <P> </P> <P>  Secondly, shared XP debt. Why in the world is everyone [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing that it's been removed? I read the replies stating "Oh no, now there is no incentive to keep players alive". You have got to be freakin kidding me. If your group is comprised of idiots that allow your tanks, healers and other members to die, then don't group with them again. Playing EQ for over 6 years I had no problems leaving a group that didn't know how to work together. Same goes here. I've been in several groups on the test server and have yet to have a problem. Having no shared debt "forces" players to work as a team, just as if there was shared debt. I know if my healer screws the pooch in battle several times he/she goes on the "Never group with again" list. Ya'll need to get out of the "hand holding" idea and focus on the true meaning of the game, which is having "choices" that equate to having a good time.</P>

[SythRavenha]

<DIV>My thoughts on Harclaves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leave it alone, or maybe slightly tone it down.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why?  Well, let's just say I have experienced far fewer run-ins with 'idiots' in the rest of the game since Harclave opened.  I am not saying the place is an idiot magnet, but it has seemed to lessen the number of 'bad group' experiences out in the other zones.  The types of groups where you are making good xp or questing and someone always want to do something tougher and even if the group declines they force the issue by 'accidentally' pulling something that ends up wiping the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously, the person gets punted afterwards, but by then everyone has debt.  It used to happen in about every other pickup group I joined.  I can't recall it happening since Harclaves opened.  All the 'XP Speed Freaks' that care so little about 'experiencing' the game have gone under the rocks they crawled out from under, better known as Harclaves.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some of these people will bore themselves to tears after a while and end up leaving the game.  Others are simply rolling up a new character because their original one is gime and they are trying to catch up with guildies.  I have no problems with either of these.  There are a few people in my guild doing just this, and I love the fact they can solo up a tad faster than normal (and I still make better XP in a good group, it just takes some time to find one).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From my experience, (have done Harclaves three times total), it's nice to have the option if I am playing at low server and guild population times.  Also, it allows for casual gamers to halfway keep up with hard core gaming friends a little better.  I see no problem with this, as I always found that to be an annoying problem of all MMORPG's save possibly Ultima Online.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand that some people are annoyed with it because alot of people are living in the place, but if they were truly good gaming buddies they would come out to hunt with you.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for being level 40 and not seeing the Feerott, I am 37 and haven't seen it, yet I stay in outdoor zones roughly 90% of the time (indoor zones can cause me to get a little light-headed sadly .. not to mention the incompetent pathing issues experienced indoors).  If a player never wants to go into a certain zone then who are any of us to say anything negative about it.  It's their money and time.  I rarely set foot into Nektulos or the Commonlands (except for Heritage and guild events) and I don't plan on changing that anytime zone.  I may never see the Feerott, or Everfrost, Rivervale, or Lavastorm.   Does that make me less of a player?   Even EQ1 had zones that many people never saw for their own reasons. </DIV>

[darkangel1]

<P>This type of post is in several different locations here on the forums. Harclave gives the "illusion" of more xp because, you don't have to spend an hour and a half to two hours LFG. All the mobs are right there in one place, and its solo. So, therefore the xp is not being divided. And let's keep in mind that Harclave has been nerfed like crazy. So the huge amount of xp that once was, is no longer. You get the same amount of xp in there, as you do say out in Everfrost/Permafrost. No, let me correct myself, you actually get a bit more in Everfrost/Permafrost.</P> <P>The big rush/fanfaire about Harclave has dyed down, at least on my server. It sucks the vitality dry way faster than any other zone/instance. They have done more than enough to discourage play in that zone. Loot drops/chests have declined dramaitcly, xp has been reduced, and vitialy gets used more quickly. Not much to keep people going back like before.</P> <P>As for the OP, I'm sorry your friends are choosing to play there instead of with you. If you haven't already, you need to talk to them, ask them hey lets get together and play. And one more thing, they choose to play there, and that fine, they have the choice and they should. I'm sure there are plently of people not in Harclave that you can group with. Just put your LFG tag up, /ooc that your LFG. etc. Plenty of options in this game. As well as plenty of people to get to know. </P>

[Moshi]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>things SHOULD ALWAYS be FUN and REWARDING no matter what you do maybe the FLAW is that SONY needs to </DIV> <DIV>make grouping MORE rewarding, simular drops but better like in harclave... and also take into consideration that a lot of people that do the harclave are high level that a bored and harclave is the most entertaining NO down time fun apart from slaying dragons and epics at 50 that i can think of </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>so I THINK you are 100 no if there were such a thing 1000 percent wrong xp in splitpaw, that is soloable is extremely poor, yes harclave is the best , but still NO WAY as good xp as grouping, a good group can do 2-3 times more xp in the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have done all the solo quest and let me tell you even with 100 percent vitality i was getting 2mm blue a kill, and the fight lasts like 3-4 minutes , that is absurd in comparison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the only good thing i see is that there is finally a way to get some silvers to save up for a my little pony other then boring crafting</DIV> <DIV>people that do it should earn lots of money because quite frankly i envy them the time spend to get so far up the ladder in crafting</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but people who do not craft and dont have a sugar aunty or daddy or a high level alt to spend what now costs a fortune on items since every single price has shot through the roof, this is because many people think all the newcomers are alts and can afford it</DIV> <DIV>when i first started , i was scared just looking at the prices and finally at mid 20's i could afford some of it thanks to splitpaw but in no way would it substitude for group xp, you couldnt be more wrong on the xp , i wonder what group you have been in if you are level 28-34 try zek , enchanted lands and see how wrong you are...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>on the bull-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] scale this gots to be a 9 and if people enjoy something like harclave which i think is awesome slow but ok xp, and no downtime, compared to better xp outside harclave SOLO even but always waiting for things to happen since you have DOWNTIME , if you cant find a group HARCLAVE rocks but still less xp then normal solo for me atleast maybe the mage classes solo better cause they almost have no downtime, i have no downtime on my necromancer when i solo </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but other classes like scouts and priest have a shieet load of downtime, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>harclave finally has a super cool substitute, no downtime and lots of fun when not grouped or you cant find a group, sony did a good thing here, and if you want to xp and there is a group available ,no way should you be thinking harclave is better xp lol i would instantly group if i wanted xp. and besides think of it this way , groups are fun, solo was sheeeit boring for most classes</DIV> <DIV>now finally solo can be fun too, people who say i always had fun solo havent played all classes or live on a different plane of reality solo is boring except for splitpaw but xp still no way near group</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i dont get why you are complaining obviously if so many people are doing it then there has to be a certain fun good thing about the whole concept or why do it ? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AND once more things should always be fun and rewarding, sony should make grouping and loot drops more fun and rewarding on the similar scale if not better then harclave, no downtime is just fun, and makes grinding xp less boring when solo but once again no way if you can group should this compensate and it doesnt if you think so then you blabbering out of focus.</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Moshiwa on <span class=date_text>08-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:52 AM</span>

[KindredHeart]

<P>Chakra74, I read your post, and it sounds to me like you have a different play style than your friends do.  I'll even go further and say, you have a different play style than the majority of your guild does.</P> <P>This is why when guilds recruit they use descriptives like "casual" or "raiding".  There are many other descriptives used by guilds, and typically a guild that offers a recruitment period allows you to get a feeling for the guild as a whole before you join.  However, all of this is not a guarantee, and no contract has been written that the guild you join today will be the same a year from now.  The goals and play styles of individuals and of guilds can change over time.</P> <P>Not everyone leaves a guild because they dislike the people or have had a falling out.  Many players end up moving on to another guild merely because their play style choices come into conflict with those of their guildmates.  I suggest you shop for another guild and let your friends play the way they choose to without receiving complaints from you.  It is afterall a game, and no one has to play in Splitpaw if they don't want to.  But for those players who do want to, I think it is very unfair and selfish of you to suggest that something they are enjoying so much be removed, or in any other way hampered.</P> <P>There are plenty of other players in the game who would enjoy playing with you, there are also plenty of other guilds with a completely different attitude toward level grinding than your current guild has.  I suggest you would be much happier if you were to join them, and your friends probably would be happier too.  By now they must be tired of the constant whining complaints when all they are trying to do is relax and enjoy the game they paid money to play.</P> <P>One other thing I'll mention...the expansion is coming out soon.  Your friends, and even your guildmates, may merely want to be able to enjoy that new content as close to it's original release as possible.  They may not want to have to wait 20 levels and 3 more months before they can go flying through the desert on a magic carpet.  If you do, that should be your choice.  But I submit that if they decide they want to be ready for the expansion when it arrives, you should also respect their choice.</P><p>Message Edited by KindredHeart on <span class=date_text>08-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:56 AM</span>

[Lowkey]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Maybe I can help clear up some of the debate on this topic as well, or at least de-rail the original post a little. I'm in Chakra74's guild.  We're a small guild, only about 8 players in it currently.  Most of us have played MMO's together since the beginning of EQ1, some 5 or 6 years ago (including Chakra74).  We're extremely casual players for the most part, though some left to join the occasional uber guild. Even more occasionally, they came back.  <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=517113" target="_blank">Here's</a> a link to our guild info on eq2players.  <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=517113" target="_blank">Here</a> is a link to our guild roster.   Browse through there a bit. Wow.  Avaia  (Guild leader) has completed 440 quests at level 42.  Yup, sounds like she spends all her time in Harclave. <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer_levels.vm?characterId=145496113" target="_blank">Skald</a>. A monk who is on the road and travels constantly for work.  Yup, Harclave abuser there. Oh, goodness, 398 quests completed. <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer_levels.vm?characterId=212105113" target="_blank">Lil ole me, Rike</a>.  Probably the member with the next-to lowest playtime (other than Rioke).  Oh god, I finished 4 levels in Harclave in the last 6 weeks.   But then, half the time I play in the middle of the night.  Heck, the last 3 times I tried to do a Harclave, I couldn't even make it to the alter without logging out in boredom. And finally, <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer_levels.vm?characterId=230528113" target="_blank">Pieohpah</a>  This is the single player in our guild you probably based your initial post on; the player who went from 31 to 41 in 6 weeks, each level finishing in Harclave.  Notice I use the word finishing  a lot; finishing, as in say, not completely doing levels there.    Pieohpah is an extreme example, considering he works nights, so during the day when he can play, normally he and Avaia are the only ones on.  Not so hard to figure out why he might chose to level in Harclave to keep up with the rest of us, right? Chakra74, Malious, whatever.  You knew people's play style when you joined the guild.  You've known Pieohpah since BEFORE EQ1.  Most of us are trying to catch up to you since you're 50, so we CAN group together without you mentoring, which you voice your distaste for constantly.   We try to get you to group with us to do things, but instead you sit in Lavastorm doing writs.  So, we came with you to try that .  Sitting in one spot, killing the same goblins for hours on end, isn't fun. It isn't a challenge, and it doesn't interest most of the guild.  Oh, and by the way.. <blockquote> <div><i>Their intentions are to finish their 40's off all in harclaves and to race to 60 also staying in harclaves.  There's currently around a 4 hour timer on the dungeon so you'll usually find them in there at least 2-3 times a day.  They stay in there as long as possible too, killing off every single thing they can to reap the most benefit.</i></div> </blockquote> <div> I'm not sure what you've been smoking but...gimmie some.  Who the h-e-double hockeysticks said anything about racing to 60 in Harclaves? And 2-3 times a day.. uh, most of us barely get to play for MORE than 4 hours a day.  As another poster said, maybe your playstyle ISN'T suited to us.  </div> Edit: fixing links. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Lowkey on <span class=date_text>08-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:08 PM</span>

[salerene]

<DIV>ummm its bad enough the nerfing bat is out in force already. why ruin it for people that choose to play there. I don't because I have responsibilitys for writs. I do on my alts, but not alot. even if I wanted to go to harclave no one has the right to tell me I can't do it every single day. thats if I choose to.</DIV> <DIV>Everyone pays for the game to play the way they want to. If you don't like the place then stay out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE needs to do less nerfing and more accually fixing of bugs.(the ones that have been around since launch) So far it seems that SOE is trying to make it even harder to level as it is. I like what I've seen in DOF, but from what I've seen on some of the combat changes I won't be buying DOF and probley won't be playing that much longer after it goes live.</DIV> <DIV>If I can't solo what I can solo now before the combat revamp then after the combat revamp I'm out of here. its just that simple. </DIV> <DIV>I sure SOE really doesnt care about 1 person, but owell I like being able to solo with the armor/items and arts/spells I can afford, but after revamp I probley won't be able to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just wish people would stop ruining the game for others and just play thier game the way they want to and leave others alone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Chakra74]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Posting the names of everyone involved was a very immature thing to do lowkey, and I’m disappointed.<SPAN>  </SPAN>You should of known better then to do that.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The original story I told was totally anonymous and I had no malice in its intent but to try to backup my point about harclaves and how it can be used to bypass content in the game.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>I’m not smoking crack, I wrote that original post while I was playing the game.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Just minutes before I posted this thread we did have a discussion in guild about Harclaves.<SPAN>  </SPAN>We talked about how Harclaves scales and whether it would continue to scale after the expansion came out.<SPAN>  </SPAN>We talked about whether at 50th the creatures there would continue to increase in level.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I know Avaia and Pie very well, and they knew that I didn’t like Harclaves and what it represents.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I know they were kidding with me when they said they would continue to use the zone until 60, but when they said it, I realized what I considered a design flaw with it.<SPAN>  </SPAN>They were joking with me and nothing more, basically in jest they were saying they would use it forever because they knew I wanted to adventure with them once they caught up.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>While we are on the subject of catching up.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The only reason I’m ahead of all of you is because everyone quit the game and I liked this game so much I continued to play it alone for months while everyone took a break.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I’m not a power leveler and I would like nothing more then for everyone to catch up so I can enjoy the new expansion with my friends.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Harclaves did not bother me because everyone was advancing, I want everyone to catch up.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Harclaves provides a solo environment with no human interaction.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The writs that I do are not exciting in the least, but even though I can easily solo them, I’ve met many wonderful people while finishing them.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Even soloing in a zone where other people exist provides human interaction and when my writ was the same as someone elses we’d group up, and I’d meet new people.<SPAN>  </SPAN>So even when soloing, Harclaves has a huge social disadvantage to soloing in a normal zone.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>When I wrote the original post it was at the peek of the guilds usage of Harclaves.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Not everyone had yet got their shards to teleport in and found it very fustrating to travel to splitpaw and go through the upper tunnels each time.<SPAN>  </SPAN>So instead of having to go through the trouble of leaving and fighting back in each time most of the main characters were parked there and alternative characters were played between the timer.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I knew this wouldn’t continue forever, but the prospect that it was possible at the time was an eye opener.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Your accusations about me not wanting to mentor and doing writs all the time are unfounded.<SPAN>  </SPAN>When I joined the guild I was level 46 and told everyone that I was done leveling, since even through casual play I would hit the 50 mark long before the expansion came out.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I said I would focus on writs and heritage quests so that the guild can get levels and you guys could focus on passing levels.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I’ve never had a problem with mentoring, beyond the annoyance of setting up the spell bars when I do.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Mentoring is one of my favorite changes this game has ever made.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Why would I care about mentoring when I can no longer gain experience of any kind?<SPAN>  </SPAN>I’ve been 50 for weeks and even leading up to that I would get much more experience mentoring heroics then fighting the green solo goblins I fight over and over doing writs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>The number of quests one does and the events leading up to this post have no bearing on the original argument.<SPAN>  </SPAN>All it shows is that players that were focused on game defining things such as quests and adventure changed their play styles for 2-3 weeks because of the off balanced risk vs reward of Harclaves.<SPAN>  </SPAN>In eqlive we’d come on every night, meet in knowledge and do interesting things like explore older dungeons or hit a lost dungeon of norrath.<SPAN>  </SPAN>These were exciting times and I’ll never forget them.<SPAN>  </SPAN>When the prospect of a zone that would throw these future plans away I jumped the gun and posted very hastily while still playing the game.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>Looking back weeks after I posted the original post, I see that the post was in bad taste.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I used an anonymous example that was fresh in my mind after just discussing it and I shouldn’t of done that.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sometimes when you post things in haste it comes back to bite you later.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=2>My guild mates are some of the best players around, and it was not my intention to belittle them in the first place.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I wouldn’t of cared so much about this subject if I didn’t want to spend more time with them in the game in the first place.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I’m sorry if I caused any suffering, and you all know my intent had no malice in mind at all.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Lowkeys directed attacks on me are a little hurtful and I think they are uncalled for and not true.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I think he made the same mistake I made weeks ago when I posted this and wrote that post too quickly.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I wish he would of kept this anonymous.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>As I write this post, I’ve lost much of my desire to log into the game, and if anything I love this game more then most others do.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I have plans to play this game for years to come. <SPAN> </SPAN>Hopefully in a few days I’ll have the desire to come back, see you all then hopefully.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>(edited because the font was huge)</FONT></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Chakra74 on <span class=date_text>08-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:27 AM</span>

[Vampy]

<DIV>Holy Crap People!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When will you people stop complaining and calling the nerf bat in on this game? We have a huge revamp on the horizon because of people so desperate to make sure no one else is better than them that they now threaten to ruin this game. Leave Harclave alone, look in the mirror and repeat after me..."I AM THE PROBLEM NOT EVERYONE OR EVERYTHING ELSE".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't want to Harclave don't, why take it away from others? Does that make you feel better knowing it isn't there while you complain to your guildies, friends and this forum that you aren't getting all you want out of this game?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harclave is a good thing....ALL content is a good thing.</DIV>

[Thanak Kalahed]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> seistaan1 wrote:<BR> <P>And as for loot if you go out and consistantly kill you will make the same amount of plat grinding writs for guild status.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would disagree here,</P> <P>At level 49, an Harclave run with net me around 30 gold in cash. A lavastorm city writ run (2 writ, scout and mage) will net  met around 7-10 gold in cash.  They both take about the same time (mostly depending on the amount of competition for mob in LS)</P>

[Raida]

I'd like to put my 2 cents in on this topic.  As a 41 Guardian who has been in Harclave about 10 or so times.  I think it serves another useful purpose to those who love the game.  I have recently completed my first large raid, mainly as an observer, and I noticed that in order to tank them effectively, I am going to need the best gear and spells.  These cost plat and with my playstyle and time to play (fairly casual player).  I will never be able to gain the kind of plat needed to get my gear and spells up to High end Raid standards.  As a result, Harclave is an excellent means to gain coin fairly quickly.  I have been able to outfit my character with decent equipment that will get me through most of the 40's, as well as begin outfitting my room with better decorations.  Also, the people I group with in guild the most are about 5 levels higher than me.  Harclave has let me catch up with them. In short, I think Sony made a good choice creating an area like this that allows us to catch up to friends and gain needed coin.  I also agree with many of the posters who have stated that "who cares if people in here powerlevel, they don’t affect me".   Honestly, this type of zone interests a certain kind of player and if Sony can continue offering a product that appeals to as many people as possible, more people will play EQ2 and I continue to get new expansions!  In the end, this is a game created to make Sony money.  This is not evil, it is business.  The Dev's who work in and on EQ2 do a great job of interacting with us and adding great content, but they in the end are trying to make sure as many people will subscribe as possible.  If Harclave does this and doesn't hurt their other players, more power to ‘em.  I don't see it hurting anyone.  (Other than the OP who maybe should find another guild that better matches his playstyle.) <div></div>

[Lowkey]

Chakra74; I'm not going to spend anymore time on this thread; since to me it's staying on topic well (whether or not harclaves should be changed).   I posted originally to call you out for being a gutless wonder and using your <i>guild </i>and your<i> friends </i>(anonymously of course, that makes it ok!) to make your point.  We discussed this pretty well already in guildchat the night I posted and I had my say. But frankly, taking on the victim role here is ....well, I don't even think I have the words for it.  Lame certainly, but that doesn't come close to how I feel about it.  You came here, posted drivel about your guildmates because you felt leftout, and when confronted, you say things like "it wasn't really about you guys, I exagerated to make my point" and my personal favorite "I didn't think you'd find out". Two things: 1.  If you have to exagerate to make your point, you don't have a point.  You lied to support your point of view.  That is all. 2.  It doesn't make it ok for you to lie about your friends and crucify them just because you think we'll never know. I'll say anything else to you in game, so stop bothering these nice people with our arguments. <div></div>

[Tudd]

"At level 49, an Harclave run with net me around 30 gold in cash. A lavastorm city writ run (2 writ, scout and mage) will net  met around 7-10 gold in cash.  They both take about the same time (mostly depending on the amount of competition for mob in LS)" This may have been true once, but from personal experience, it's not the same now. Back when it first came out, yeah, you could net that kind of cash consistently. I recently (last week) did a Harclave run, and drops were way down. 1 chest and 2 body drops for clearing the whole thing. I probably just had some terrible luck, but 30g runs just don't happen (at least for me) anymore. To top it off, SOE already announced in their patch messages they made the drop rate in SP comparable to other zones. So the "nerf", as far as loot reduction, has already occured. <div></div>

[Mon]

<span><blockquote><hr>thark wrote:<div>Well..The Harclave dungeon is a fantastic solo quest (once), but why do we get awarded so much xp for the monsters in there ?</div> <div> </div> <div>We aren't suppose to have this much xp since we have unnatural powers, we aren't suppose to be able to defeat these encounters solo, the monsters inside harclave should give you nada xp and once you defeated the dungeon it should give you some experience..Isn't that the point with harclave..to survive the challange ? Not use it as a place to grind ...I really hope SOE puts a stop to this rediculous source of free xp..Another solotion is to make the quest one time only since there really is no point at all to do it more than once..</div> <div> </div> <div>And for the sake of your guild..well quit the guild ..they are idiots..They only play to get as much xp as ever possibe and it doesn't matter if it.s the same mundane task all over again..thats just sick and sad and these people aren't suppose to play MMORPG's..</div> <div> </div> <div>/Rigmor</div><hr></blockquote> Wow, you sure are an opinionated little fella, arent you?  Just because someone chooses to play a game a different way than you they are idiots?  Anyway, please, oh please, dont change Harclave one tiny bit.  I played for the first 2 months of EQs life and quit for a couple of months for various reasons, most of them being mechanics in the game I could not deal with.  I came back for a month or so around June and played for a month again then quit for another 3 month, this time real life issues.  Now I came back a month ago and was SHOCKED by the changes in groups.  I had been playing a berserker originally who I dumped for my warlock due to not being able to even FIND a 30s group.  When I realized I was in the same boat, I quit him for my warden thinking surely healers can find a group right?  Wrong, I would sit hours looking for a group with nary a sign of one visable.  Now, I do Harclaves between doing things with friends and guild, and am very happy grinding out the 30s in there.  If Harclave didnt exist I wouldnt have lasted 2 weeks this time around and probably wouldn't bother trying it again.</span><div></div>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The rest of the world is what needs to be un-nerfed.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Soloing is WAY to efficient for what it actually is.  In a group, we are taking down orange cons and the XP is barely better than solo content.  That is why people deify the harclave, great XP, and you keep the booty.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[thark]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monal wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Wow, you sure are an opinionated little fella, arent you?  Just because someone chooses to play a game a different way than you they are idiots?  <BR><BR>Anyway, please, oh please, dont change Harclave one tiny bit.  I played for the first 2 months of EQs life and quit for a couple of months for various reasons, most of them being mechanics in the game I could not deal with.  I came back for a month or so around June and played for a month again then quit for another 3 month, this time real life issues.  Now I came back a month ago and was SHOCKED by the changes in groups.  I had been playing a berserker originally who I dumped for my warlock due to not being able to even FIND a 30s group.  When I realized I was in the same boat, I quit him for my warden thinking surely healers can find a group right?  Wrong, I would sit hours looking for a group with nary a sign of one visable.  Now, I do Harclaves between doing things with friends and guild, and am very happy grinding out the 30s in there.  If Harclave didnt exist I wouldnt have lasted 2 weeks this time around and probably wouldn't bother trying it again."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well..If you had been following the whole tread in this matter you would see that we had a discussion about this a week ago or something..And yes I was angry when i wrote that, therefor I'm sorry, noone should be called an idiot just because they happen to have a certain playstyle...</DIV> <DIV>On the other hand why is it only the casual players and solo players that are entiteled to whining about this and that, just because these players happen to be a majority..</DIV> <DIV>I'm getting more and more frustrated with EQ2's future every patch note...SOE please there is already a casual and solo game on the market and those players, (when tired of that game), will not likely join EQ2 as i basically has become the same game, my guess they would want something little more hardcore for a challange and that is a good quality that EQ2 use to have..Imstead they follow every casual/solo whiners word that this is what this game needs etc etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by thark on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:12 AM</span>