Illusionists thought we couldn't get any worse...we were wrong

[thrownho]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I have spent most of the morning today going through the Illusionist boards and reading about the changes from those who have experienced them first hand, whether on the DoF beta server or on test. As it stands now, EVERY SINGLE ILLUSIONIST who has posted, and I have not seen one exception, is beyond disappointed with what has been done to our class. Everyone knows that Illusionists, and enchanters in general, have always been broken. We have had hundreds of issues with our class, all of which have been posted about for the past 8 months. We have tried to have our voices heard, but we have never had any of our issues resolved, not once, in 8 months. There have been minor bug fixes, but we're still as broken as we were the day the game was released. This huge combat revamp brought hope to many, and there was never a doubt in my mind that this would fix all of our problems. I mean, we're pretty much one of the worst classes in the game, broken in dozens of ways, how could they possibly make us any worse? They did. Somehow, SoE has pulled off the unimaginable and made us even worse. A nearly extinct class will now move it's way up on the endangered list, and I doubt we will see any Illusionists still around a few months from now. I'm going to try and be as detailed as possible here, because even though SoE has just slapped us in the face, I still have hope. There is one month left before this goes to live, and I'm sure that they know that if it goes the way it is now, this class might as well be removed from the game. None of us signed up to play a weaker version of a warlock. We decided to be enchanters because we wanted utility, we wanted crowd control, we wanted to do things other than just mindless DPS. So, lemme get to the point, this is what I'm understanding will happen to Illusionists with the new combat changes: <b>Insight</b>...will no longer be usable on a whole raid, making us far less desired. Not only that, but it will now require concentration, and it has been reduced in power by over 50%. It is now only 24 power/tick, down from 60 power/tick (at master 1). <b> Haste</b>...might as well be removed from the game, as it will now almost never be used. It can be used only in your own group, as always, but it now requires a concentration slot. When so many of our other abilities require concentration, do you think anyone will save one for haste, which only affects auto-attack damage? Even when I'm in a group with 2+ scouts/tanks and have everyone hasted, DPS hardly goes up, since so little damage comes from auto-attack. <b> Group invis</b>...now this hurts. This was fine, I have never, ever heard someone complaining that this spell needed to be massively nerfed. I found this to be our main utility spell, something that made us quite useful, and now it might as well be removed from the game. It now lasts 2.5 minutes with a 3 minute refresh, and lowers movement speed by 35%. It also costs 3 concentration slots. Fine, I could actually somewhat live with this, even though I think it's ridiculous and uncalled for, but the worst part about it is that the level of the invis was also drastically lowered. An adept 3 version will now give level 40 invis, which basically means that almost anything which is higher than a green con at level 50 will be able to see you. Under what mysterious circumstances would this spell be used now? Might as well remove it and give us some other utility to replace it, since it has been nerfed to oblivion. <b> Our ability to mez</b>...mezzing will apparently only happen in extreme emergencies now. I don't know about other illusionists, but THIS is the reason why I picked this class. I wanted crowd control, and taking this away is just a huge downgrade for our class, and it is making us into something we were never meant to be. AoE mez now lasts only 8 seconds, with a ONE MINUTE recast timer. In other words, this will never be used, ever, another useless spell to add to the list. This used to be a situational spell, barely useful as it was except under very specific circumstances, but the last thing it needed was to be so horribly downgraded...makes no sense to me. Convincing Regalia, our secondary mez, now lasts only 12 seconds with a 10 second recast. Again, this is now some sort of emergency long term stun it seems rather than a mez spell, given that the duration is 30% of what it used to be. Capture Mind, our main mez spell, had it's duration lowered and it's recast time increased. Why? Mez spells were fine, why were they so drastically changed? This was the bread and butter of the illusionist class, and now I doubt I will be using my mez spells anymore. <b> Stuns and Roots</b>...this is an area where we needed a huge upgrade. Warlocks and wizards have always been superior to us here, and considering how we're supposed to be the utility class, we really needed to be brought up to par. Instead, warlocks and wizards have had theirs nerfed, and we have seen no improvement. Our root is now utterly useless, since the recast was made to be longer than the duration. It was very very bad before, I honestly didn't think it could get any worse...well it has. Now, when root breaks, we can't root the mob again for 5 seconds or so...considering we lost parry, I don't think we will even last those 5 seconds. <b> Illusions</b>...while this may be a very minor thing to some, it is still painful to see a conjuror running around in elemental forms, when all I can turn into is a human or a half elf. I thought that we would actually receive some useful illusions with this revamp, with actual beneficial effects, but that obviously didn't happen. <b> DPS</b>...our DPS seems to have gone up very slightly from what I can see. Most of our damage spells and DoTs were unchanged, but we did receive a few new spells that have some DPS potential. However, we sacrificed absolutely ALL of our utility for this relatively small amount of damage...so please, someone explain to me, why would any group/raid pick an illusionist over a warlock, when they both have the same amount of utility but the warlock greatly surpasses the illusionist in damage potential. <b>[EDIT] </b>Recent screenshots posted show that Wither Hope, arguably our best damage spell, has now had the "% chance to proc Nightmare" part of it removed. It is now just a simple DoT that ticks every 6 seconds. If this remains, this spell has gone down about 500% in damage potential in many situations, such as raids, where all the damage came from the Nightmare proc. Also, Lobotomize has lost its "% chance to decrease DPS" portion of it, but it had a nuke added to it when it's duration expires. Not really a downgrade in that case, but not an upgrade either. Scorching Beam on the other hand has had it's damage lowered by at least 100%, since the DoT portion of the spell has been removed. It is now a straight direct damage spell with nothing else attached, but no damage was added to justify the removal of the DoT at the end, meaning it now does a lot less damage that it used to. <b>Charm</b>...I don't believe I have ever seen an illusionist say "We need Charm!" or "We need pets!". Actually, I have seen pretty much the opposite, most of us did not want charm or pet spells, that is not why we picked this class. Get rid of charm and give me my utility back. My guild is not going to care that I can charm, in what way does that benefit us during a raid, when 99% of the time there are no solo mobs around to charm. Also, it takes 3 concentration slots, so this is obviously something that can only be used while soloing. We also get some sort of doppleganger pet spell, which also takes 3 conc slots, but this is only going to help us solo slightly better, and in no way fixes the real problem: we will no longer be desired in groups or raids, whatsoever. <b>[EDIT] </b>We are in fact <b>NOT receiving Charm</b>. The Illusionist on the test server who reported having it, even though the spell description says "coercer" all over the place, says that it has been removed. It was more than likely just a bug and we were never meant to have it. As I said above, I didn't want Charm, but many illusionists did account for this as our new way to solo, and a possible way to contribute to an exp group. Charming an even con mob will output far more dps than our doppleganger pet from the things I'm hearing about it, with the downside of being a very situational spell. Also, about our doppleganger, it seems to cast mez and other such crowd control spells randomly, which pretty much kills its use. It should stick solely to damage spells, debuffs, and stuns. Mezzes/roots are too situational to be used at random, it just wastes the pets time. <b>Power drain</b>...I'm not surprised, but this has also been made nearly useless. Barakas explains it better than I could, so I will quote him here..."<em>According to this thread here <a href="message?board.id=dofma&message.id=367#M367" target="_blank"><font color="#c8c1b5">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=dofma&message.id=367#M367</font></a> a dev stated that a power pool multiplier is now used on mobs and that it is very noticable on ^^ mobs.  Well, with the large toning down of our power drain spells (short duration, very long recast time) how is this suppose to make us more viable in groups?  When I first got speechless I would giggle in glee when I used it because it was such a nice spell.  My group (same three to four folks all the time) would count on my ability to stifle and drain...it was a very large group assett.  Now though, what real use is this spell in a group setting?  Yeah, I can use it for 12 seconds every 45....hardly the spell it use to be.  I hope the devs reconsider the duration and the recast timer on Mind Drain and even Devitalizing Stare." <i> </i></em>To sum up what he said, the amount these spells drain is now insignificant to the amount of power a mob has, and their now extremely long recast timers (used to be about 10 seconds or so on Mind Drain) just makes it even worse. <b> Debuffs</b>...these have been decreased for everyone from what I'm hearing, so I'll just add in that we have also lost a lot of debuffing power, like everyone else. <i><em> </em></i> So, in conclusion, the following sums up the ways in which this class has changed with the combat revamp, thus far: <b>Spell lines being downgraded: </b>Roots, power regens, power drains, group buffs, haste, group invisibility, mezmerize spells, debuffs, most DoTs <b> Spell lines remaining the same: </b>Illusions, single target nukes <b> Spell lines being upgraded: </b>New pet spell, AoEs Do you really think that this is what we needed? This is making our class even worse than before, turning us into mini-warlocks at best. Can you tell me why any group would pick an illusionist over a warlock, when they both seem to have about the same utility but a warlock has ten times more damage potential? We need to have our utility INCREASED, not decreased to the point where the spells will never even be used. Receving charm and a pet spell does not make up for losing every ability that made us who we were, that made us illusionists. Please, if you have to change the class, go through the last 8 moths of posts, listen to the people that actually play an illusionist every day, the ones who know what has been wrong with our class all along. We did not spend 8 months perfecting our skills and working out the kinks of mezzing, stunning, draining, etc., just to have it all taken away now for the sake of a little bit of damage. That is not what we signed up to be, and the overhaul that this class is receiving is crossing the line, turning it into a completely different class. I do not want to see the class that I have learned to love die out, but I'm afraid that if you go through with this, it will, and all the hard work we have all put into getting to level 50 will just have been a waste of time, because the class we leveled is not the same class that we will be forced to play. For reference on where I learned about the Illusionist changes, you can go here: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=5978&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 <b>[EDIT]</b> Edited for grammar and some new changes to DPS from the spell screenshots that were posted. <b>[EDIT#2]</b> Edited after finding out that illusionists in fact will <b>NOT be receiving Charm</b>, as we were taking this into consideration when measuring our new solo abilities and group worth. Eloze 50 Illusionist of Oasis <div></div><p>Message Edited by thrownhope on <span class="date_text">08-06-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:42 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by thrownhope on <span class=date_text>08-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:58 PM</span>

[Mad_Hatt0r]

<DIV>OH! and dont forget that bards can now regen power at almost the  same #  per tick! (which dont stack with ours!) so now we cant even be mana bots anymore..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Mad_Hatt0r on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

[Oghi]

<FONT size=3></FONT> <DIV>It's too early to tell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've read all those same threads, and there's no way you can be so conclusive based on the information we have so far.  In particular, it's impossible to tell what our DPS will be like post-patch, or how much of it will depend on a charmed pet (an iffy proposition in groups).  We simply don't have the data yet, as there are so few 50 illusionists anywhere, including test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It *is* clear that our utility has been signficantly decreased.  Regen, mezz and (particularly) group invis got thumped hard.  The regen changes may be balanced by the fact that they're now group buffs, but the others are nasty nerfs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe SOE is trying to fit enchanters back into the original design of the game, returning them to the mage archetype.  That is DPS-centric with some utility.  There is no "utility archetype."  It's clear that our utility has been reduced significantly, but there's no way you can yet know whether our DPS has increased enough to balance that out.  Let's wait until we see accurate spell descriptions <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[thrownho]

Exactly Oghier, I am only ASSUMING that our DPS will be increased, since that it is the only thing that would make any sense. What is clear, as you said, is that all our utility lines of spells have taken a major hit. I have seen only one post mentioning that our AoE damage went up, which is why I put it as a possible upgrade, but we do not have any actual data on those spells yet...however, on the utility spells, we do have a lot of actual data, and they have been nerfed to hell. Who knows how charm will play out...but still, even if it's a great spell, that only changes our ability to solo, not our usefulness in raids and groups. <div></div>

[KornRollKid]

<P><STRONG>Well i dunno what to say been waiting for so long for fixes then this revamp was gonna come i really had hope i dunno if i wanna go on .</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>My illusionist is my main and is 50th lvl with really good gear all my alts are in teens and one 20 something i dont have the time or patience to go through everything if i make a warlock or something .</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Hate to say it yeah i have had fun but i thought there would be a good payoff for lvling the hardest class to play and the endless months of little to no ability to solo but wow i must say im gonna check out the changes but geesh if its even remotely like this im cancelling.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Throwing in the towel is the only real solution and move to another game i guess cause soe just doesnt this class or want it around it seems.</STRONG></P>

[Daga]

<DIV>One thing... you really need to go to test and test the changes.  Mobs got and are getting revamped.  Due to that, you cannot compare the damage, the downgrades, against live.  Also, this isn't the end of balancing (I hope).  The concentraion thing seems totally stupid to me, so hopefully the up the amount of slots.  If it's becoming a pick and choose type of environment, it's going to be itneresting to see how this plays out.  5 slots of concentration, with certain spells taking up 3, seems like a poor way to handle things.  But we'll see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's too early to judge.  Play on test and see how it affects you.  Don't read the boards and fly off the handle.  This new change, not only affects us, but the NPCs.  So comparing the two does not make sense.</DIV>

[SunT]

I will try to level an Illusionist to 50 on the test server today so I can try these changes first hand.  It will be fun, afterall the Illusionist class is sooo much fun and easy to level as it already is.

[KornRollKid]

<P>Dagath excuse me but other high lvl illuionists have posted and we do know our class and i know what all said above means also.</P> <P>Now granted i havent played my toon with these new changes but i can read and i do know that even half of that is true alot of us are gonna be very very dissapointed.</P>

[thrownho]

Dagath, it doesn't matter how much they change NPCs, they could change them so they hit for 1 damage every 10 minutes, that still has nothing to do with my original post. We are losing all of our core abilities, all of our utility, everything. Damage isn't an issue, damage actually has nothing to do with it. No change towards NPCs could warrant the changes that we are receiving, the nerfs we seem to be getting from every direction. Also, trying out the changes on test is not an option. I wish I had the time to get an illusionist to level 50, into a raiding guild, and with fabled gear before September 12th, but I don't. Any testing I would be able to do would be extremely low level and would not apply to my actual character in any way, so it would pretty much be a waste of time. Eloze 50 Illusionist of Oasis <div></div>

[Daga]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KornRollKid wrote:<BR> <P>Dagath excuse me but other high lvl illuionists have posted and we do know our class and i know what all said above means also.</P> <P>Now granted i havent played my toon with these new changes but i can read and i do know that even half of that is true alot of us are gonna be very very dissapointed.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not saying you don't know your class, what i'm saying is that this game is becoming, IMHO, effectively, Everquest 2.1.  It's going to be fundamentally different.  When compaing against your current class, and the current game, it's going to look horrid.  I agree also, that SOE needs to figure a way to be able to copy chracters over to play.  Maybe even a second Test server, where you can copy the character over, and character wipes happen every two days... something like that.</P> <P>What I'm saying is that, when I first started to look at changes for Wizards, I was [Removed for Content].  They totally changed it, and the changes, when compared to the current game, quite frankly, sucked.  A few of the high level testers came in and explained it a bit better.  Now I'm not saying you are not going to get nerfed.  Every class is, and it will hurt.  what I'm saying is that the changes have to be compared against the changes.  Every class is getting hit by a nerf stick, and by a buff stick.  Also, these are getting tuned over a month.  Wizards lost all debuffs from what I can tell, and what they are saying.  Compared to the live game, that equals, wizards are pointless.  But people can still solo, still group, and still do well.  It just says that the role, and our perceptions are different.  Across the board, all buffs are getting hit by a huge nerf stick.  3 slot concentraions... that is going to blow big time.  But it is across the baord.</P> <P>I'm ancy about this.  I'm undecided.  I see how it could be good, and trying to remain optimistic.  Now granted, it coudl be a bunch of garbage, but until I can see it first hand, I'm holding judgement.  that is all I'm saying.<BR></P>

[KornRollKid]

<P>Ok i know where your coming from and i too have been antsy about these changes and like i said i do intend on trying it out,  im not gonna just fly off the handle here may sounded like that and i know were not the only class with changes were all getting them .</P> <P>That being said i guess alot of us are concerned with these changes you can ask any chanter that our damage has been a joke our roots a joke i could go on .</P> <P>But invis and other utlitys i just dont get it.</P>

[Daga]

<DIV>Same here.  AS a Wizard, losing all my debuffs, with no idea whether high end mobs have had their resistances changed... is a huge concern.  Cause now, Wizards may still be pointless in end game other than dumping mana, which we now do worse as well.  I'm trying to be positive and see the chagnes over the coming weeks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guess is they underpowered spells to begin with, and then beef them up, because you know if a spell was overpowered, initially, no one is really going to report those.  I'm hoping it is like that here, as well as with all classes.</DIV>

[Naginata]

<P>For wizards it looks like they really now the masters of one target damage on test.</P> <P>The resists are a good point though and something that I think the devs have taken into acount.</P> <P>Wizard Int will be so high (well, for any wiz who knows how to play) that the Wis difference will give a bonus to damage.</P> <P>As for resists themselves, the new system makes the wizard part of the group dynamic. Other group members are the debuffers, you are the DAMAGE!!!!!!! NUKE EM TO HELLLLLLL!!!! Let the other classes distract it, wizard is for DAMAGE!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Oghi]

<P><FONT size=3>I've now had a chance to look at all the new illusionist spells.  I think we might be fine.  There are some concentration slot issues, but those will hopefully be addressed.  In particular, I note the following points and questions:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- Will my DoT spells stack with the same DoT cast by my Persona Duplicate?  If so, that's a good DPS upgrade (though for 3 conc slots)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- Our defenses go from paper-thin to nonexistant.  We lose parry, and no illusionist will be using the three-slot Magi Shielding spell, as that would prevent the use of Duplicate or Charm (our new sources of DPS)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- Do Illusionists get the Charm upgrades, or are we stuck with the one limited to level 24 and under targets?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- If illusionists do not get Charm upgrades, soloing at 40+ will be even tougher than it is now.  We still have no real root spell or big nukes, so we'll have to tank every target for extended periods.  Unlike a sorc, who can frontload tons of damage, much of ours still comes in long-duration DoT's.  How are we supposed to survive the 24+ seconds it takes for the critter to die, with even lower defense ability than we currently have?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- I like the idea of concentration slots forcing choices.  As long as the choices are reasonable ones, it's great that illusionists will have a chance to develop more individualized playstyles.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- Are the training spells revamped yet?  The training upgrades to Breeze, Construct and the like do not appear in sync with the primary spell lines any more</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- Am I misreading things, or did Coercer stuns become 100% more powerful than present, while Illusionist stuns were severely reduced?  Stuns are a pretty powerful tool in all situations.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- Group invis is so severely nerfed I'd as soon see it removed.  "Utilities" like that and the three-conc slot see invis (!?) aren't even going to make my hotbar any more, so I'd prefer if they weren't considered when balancing the abilities we *will* use.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>In all, the changes certainly look interesting.  I'll stick around until they hit live, in hopes that the new illusionist class is more fun than the toothless mana-bot I have now.</FONT></P> <p>Message Edited by Oghier on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[thrownho]

Just to add, since the pics of all of our spells have been posted on the illusionist board, there was one thing I saw that really, really, really disappointed me. All of the stuff from my original post holds true, but there was one additional nerf I wasn't counting on. Wither Hope, by far our best DoT and best damage spell, has had the % chance to go off when the mob is hit removed. This will lower the damage Wither Hope does by about 500% in some situations, such as raids, and nothing has been added to the spell to make up for this. Also, Lobotomize has had it's % to decrease DPS removed, and a one time nuke added to the end of it, while Scorching Beam has also been pretty badly nerfed by removing the DoT portion of it, while at the same time not increasing it's initial nuke damage. Seems like not even our DPS is increasing, at least not with single targets. Our AoE DPS on the other hand does seem to be getting a nice boost...but that's only ONE thing about our class that's getting boosted, while a dozen other things are being horribly downgraded. Doesn't sound like a balanced change to me. Eloze 50 Illusionist of Oasis <div></div>

[Mad_Hatt0r]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thrownhope wrote:<BR>Just to add, since the pics of all of our spells have been posted on the illusionist board, there was one thing I saw that really, really, really disappointed me. All of the stuff from my original post holds true, but there was one additional nerf I wasn't counting on. Wither Hope, by far our best DoT and best damage spell, has had the % chance to go off when the mob is hit removed. This will lower the damage Wither Hope does by about 500% in some situations, such as raids, and nothing has been added to the spell to make up for this. Also, Lobotomize has had it's % to decrease DPS removed, and a one time nuke added to the end of it, while Scorching Beam has also been pretty badly nerfed by removing the DoT portion of it, while at the same time not increasing it's initial nuke damage. Seems like not even our DPS is increasing, at least not with single targets. Our AoE DPS on the other hand does seem to be getting a nice boost...but that's only ONE thing about our class that's getting boosted, while a dozen other things are being horribly downgraded. Doesn't sound like a balanced change to me.<BR><BR>Eloze<BR>50 Illusionist of Oasis<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yeah, i noticed that also. I feel cheated considering i just bought adept 3s of both wither hope and lobotomize... :smileysad:

[SunT]

<P>I just do not understand our role by reading the changes.</P> <P>Reduced Utility</P> <P>Reduced CC ability</P> <P>Reduced Buff ability</P> <P>Reduced debuf ability.</P> <P>Small increase in DPS.</P> <P>Potential Large increase in DPS if we do no group enhancements due to conc slot limitations.</P> <P>I just dont get it.  I can see from other class forums that everyone including the Mobs have been nerfed so relatively speaking most spells are likely par for the course.  </P> <P>But we are not talking about a Wiz nuke going form 4k to 3k.  That is fine if the mob has less HP.  This is also true of our regen, reduction is fine if mob hp are lowered.  All is relative.</P> <P>Things like the group invis being totally nerfed to the point I am having a tough time thinking of a place where it would be worth casting dont make sense.  So, ok take that out of the game.  No more group invis.  I can handle that.  We were given Charm, I would not make the trade but whatever.</P> <P>CC is nerfed?  Why?  It was not overly strong before.   Most levels a Chanter can only mez ONE mob every 10 sec.   It is rarely needed, now it is nerfed, longer reset and half the duration.  So when it is needed we will not be able to do nearly what we could have before.  CC is why 90% of chanters play the class in the first place.  I was hoping for it to be highly nec in the DoF.  Really looking forward to some trains.  But now it is less than half what it was before...can't figure it out.</P> <P>The only REALLY good working spell we had was Speechless and it is nerfed too.  So we have lowered our debuf ability.  Once again I just don't get it.</P> <P>Funniest thing is Haste might now actually mean something and now it is half the speed and takes a conc slot so we have to not use a buff that actually does something in order to cast it.</P> <P>Our class is defined by Buffs, Debufs and CC.</P> <P>We traded a small DPS increase for a nerf of all class defining abilities.  If a Chanter on test or Beta feels our concerns are unwaranted then please respond.</P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mad_Hatt0r]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <P>I just do not understand our role by reading the changes.</P> <P>Reduced Utility</P> <P>Reduced CC ability</P> <P>Reduced Buff ability</P> <P>Reduced debuf ability.</P> <P>Small increase in DPS.</P> <P>Potential Large increase in DPS if we do no group enhancements due to conc slot limitations.</P> <P>I just dont get it.  I can see from other class forums that everyone including the Mobs have been nerfed so relatively speaking most spells are likely par for the course.  </P> <P>But we are not talking about a Wiz nuke going form 4k to 3k.  That is fine if the mob has less HP.  This is also true of our regen, reduction is fine if mob hp are lowered.  All is relative.</P> <P>Things like the group invis being totally nerfed to the point I am having a tough time thinking of a place where it would be worth casting dont make sense.  So, ok take that out of the game.  No more group invis.  I can handle that.  We were given Charm, I would not make the trade but whatever.</P> <P>CC is nerfed?  Why?  It was not overly strong before.   Most levels a Chanter can only mez ONE mob every 10 sec.   It is rarely needed, now it is nerfed, longer reset and half the duration.  So when it is needed we will not be able to do nearly what we could have before.  CC is why 90% of chanters play the class in the first place.  I was hoping for it to be highly nec in the DoF.  Really looking forward to some trains.  But now it is less than half what it was before...can't figure it out.</P> <P>The only REALLY good working spell we had was Speechless and it is nerfed too.  So we have lowered our debuf ability.  Once again I just don't get it.</P> <P>Funniest thing is Haste might now actually mean something and now it is half the speed and takes a conc slot so we have to not use a buff that actually does something in order to cast it.</P> <P>Our class is defined by Buffs, Debufs and CC.</P> <P>We traded a small DPS increase for a nerf of all class defining abilities.  If a Chanter on test or Beta feels our concerns are unwaranted then please respond.</P> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>well we still got our very unique and powerful illusions.. nothing is greater then my human illusion with the afro! teh fear meh!</DIV>

[zit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oghier wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=3>I've now had a chance to look at all the new illusionist spells.  I think we might be fine.  ...</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I also had a look at the illusionist spells. And being very acquainted with warlocks i had a look at their spells too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My impression is that in comparison illusionist - warlocks the gap will not be significantly closed. The huge difference in effectiveness seems to stay. And this is what concerns me most atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Illusionist changes show similar pattern as warlock changes: A nerf/change in utility, a big nerf in CC for both classes, an nerft in single target damage, a boost in AE damage....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if one of the most underpowered classes gets treated like one of the strongest classes how to expect the result to solve the imbalance?</DIV>

[Surian]

I've been looking forward to these combat changes for a while, having played an Illusionist since release... I picked an Illusionist in EQ2, and while I didn't exactly know what I'd get when I started, I stuck with it for what it was. I've been vocal on the forums and in other places about certain things that might need changing about my class... in my opinion, at least.  A bit more DPS is certainly welcomed, because I -can- solo but not exactly effectively.  I'm fine with doing almost no DPS while I'm focusing on my utilties, like re-breezing and mezzing and debuffing and powerdraining... those are the abilities that are unique to my class, those are the abilities that made me love my class. But this... I just don't get it.  I was expecting the combat changes to be big, but not to turn classes completely head over heels... not to re-structure the BASIS for my class.  The defining abilities of my class.  The reasons I'm invited along for groups and raids. I went Illusionist to play in Qeynos, and because I wanted to be more 'defensive' -- at least, that was the idea I got from the handbook that came with the game.  I've seen many Coercers mention that one of their reasons for choosing the class was to get charm.  I have never wanted charm.  Nukes that actually scaled up in DPS with my level from 30+ instead of staying almost the same, yes.  Charm, no.  Fixed spells so that they work the way intended, and so that a spell upgrade is actually an upgrade and not something that gives +1 more of something good for +50 more power cost.  Those were what I was hoping for.  I never expected to have everything the way I wanted it in the revamp; I certainly expected there to be some things I didn't like. But... I'm not sure I'll even come close to enjoying my Illusionist if she loses the abilities that make her special.  I could handle a new way to do things, to re-learn things about my class... but that would be if my class was still recognisable as the one I've been playing since the start of November. My Illusionist is a mage, yes.  Mages are known for dps, yes.  Enchanters have big utility, and I would expect them to have lower dps because of it.  There were some issues with Illy dps in some parts of the game, but I never... ever... wanted to play a dps with a bit of utility.  I wanted a utility with some dps. I'll still give it a chance, see what happens when the patch goes live.  But I'm very, very concerned.  I hope it won't be as drastic as this thread seems. Surianka 50 Illusionist Befallen Imperium <div></div>

[Snive]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I went into this class expecting to be the lowest damaging mage class, expecting to shine as a utility crowd controller. The developers have said in the past tha we are low on damage because of the utility we bring to the group. Problem was we weren't really doing that. And now, at first glance and from ongoing discussion, they have hacked our limited utility even more and given us a pinch more DPS. This is boggling.Let's be honest, with these changes we are still looking at an hour+ of tedious mez/nuking the Splitpaw Champion (maybe not the best example) and being even less desiring to groups.Again, I can accept not being able to solo. It wasn't why I picked the class, but they seem to be making the initial reason -- their reason -- why I did even worse.I trust most, if not all, of the people who have posted on the Illusionist changes, but I am trying to level up my own on Test to get a first hand look at it. The first time was slow, I don't know if I'm to doing it again.Edit:I completely agree with everything Surianka stated and especially with regards to relearning the class. I was actually looking forward to doing it. Heck, I even had an RP reason why. Now I'm kind of scared.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Snivers on <span class=date_text>08-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:18 AM</span>

[Oghi]

<DIV>For enchanters, the basis behind these changes is solid.  It gives us more DPS and less utility, putting us more squarely into the mage archetype.  Better yet, the means by which we achieve DPS (e.g., Charm and Duplicate) are more interesting than just giving us bigger nukes.  and *anything* is more interesting than just being a toothless breeze-bot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The utility nerfs sting, but they make sense.  Mana regen spells won't be as powerful, but at least we'll no longer risk carpal tunnel syndrom from casting them.  The nearly complete destruction of group invis stings worse.  It appears that SOE has decided to render that spell *very* situational, at best.  I suppose that'll make encounter balancing easier, but I'll miss the ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My concern is this:  If we're now supposed to be a DPS/ Utility class, did they get the DPS bit right?  Charm will be great, but it's very situational -- primarily a solo tool (good one, though!).  The Persona Duplicate spell is a brilliant idea, but extra casts of Gloom and the like aren't going to add that much DPS.  When I look at all of the abilities, I can see our DPS probably doubles.  But that takes us from 10% of a sorc's DPS to 20%.  I'm not sure we're there yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, I think the concentration limits are a brilliant tool.  It would be *nice* to have options, and to be forced to choose between them.  As long as SOE balances things knowing that no enchanter will ever be able to use Magi's Shielding.   We're going to be borderline defenseless against melee attacks if we have Charm or Duplicate active.  Sorcs don't have to drop 3 concentration slots on their primary DPS ability, but chanters will.  It needs to be worth it to do so <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all, though, the direction of these changes is great.  It will be a lot more fun to manage a variety of DPS and utility skills, rather than simply trying to time your buff recasts properly.</DIV>

[Amise]

Not to downplay your issues, but two things at least aren't as bad as you think.  Firstly haste will become more important because auto-attack damage for several classes is being increased.  Second, all invis and sneak is currently broken because no spells or skills scale with level any more.    This means that sneak/invis, which has to scale with level to function correctly, just isn't working right.  They do know about the invis issues so this one at least will be fixed. <div></div>

[booga]

Oghier, I respect your idea of how you would like the class, but I feel most illusionist didn't sign up for dps (campare it to dps classes on top of that).  Anyone else that wants to see that can review the illusionist board.  I would rather let off of the dps and have a better ability to control a crowd and enhance my group.  With the illusionist dps even increased, I think most people would be more interested in a sorcerer if they want damage or a bard if they want more utility, breeze included (not sure how bard's are on dps).  Enchanters imho are a defensive mage and that is what I signed up for and spent a lot of time on. It is scary that they could make me question playing my class on their whim. <div></div>

[Neverborn]

<DIV>I'm really trying to wrap my brain around this and look at it from all sides, even it is something i can't help feeling passionate about (the time investment most of us have made in this game is no small matter). I still am having a heck of a time finding anything positive in this... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Illusionists have needed to have their over-all power adjusted RELATIVE to other classes since day one. When they said we were getting a DPS increase with the combat changes, we all cheered and thought that this was going to take us from being a fairly weak class (no armor, no DPS, good utility in most situations) to a more balanced class (no Armor, average DPS, good utility in most situations) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead it feels like we are going to (no armor, average DPS, utility that is no better than any mage or scout class) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats right, utility on par with other mage and scout classes. If we share gimpy mana regen with bards, group invis is very weak now and will rarely be used, haste is pretty much out the window and most of our other buffs/debuffs are not really worth mentioning. CC is been gimped to the point where we may be able to lock down 2.5 mobs effectively, which puts us on par CC wise with many other scout and mage classes. Yet... we still have no armor and a fraction of the DPS of other mages. Where is the disconnect here? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Myrid</DIV>

[MillsFairchild]

<div></div>/raises_hand I am certainly not 'beyond dissapointed.'  In fact, I'm not really dissapointed at all.  Yes, it's going to be very different. In Barakas' initial assessment on the Illusionist forums (the first we heard of our classes changes), he only really went into detail on the negative changes while leaving out any specifics on the positive. I didn't really realize this until I was forwarded screens of our new spells. I posted them on the boards for all to see and spent some time reflecting on not just our changes, but the changes to everyone and the way the game is going to be played. I've come to the conclusion that we'll still have utility, it's just going to be more situational rather than being able to use it all at once. And that's the way the game is changing for everyone. Once I realized and accepted that it wasn't just a super-nerf directed at us, but instead a change making the entire game harder and more strategic for everyone, I was ok with the them. I think these changes are actually going to make the game bit more fun for me to play. Not all Illusionist's are going to be happy... especially at first. But it's human nature that people see the negative in change instead of the positive. The only one that I'm really upset about is group invis. But from what I've heard, all invis/stealth is currently broken and will be scaling in level again once it's fixed. Still sucks, but at least it should work. I'm not looking to start an argument about whether you agree with me or not.  I just wanted to post <i>my </i>assessment of the changes since you seem to want to speak for the entire community.  Let the one-starring commence. <div></div><p>Message Edited by MillsFairchild on <span class=date_text>08-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 PM</span>

[ClaudiustheG]

<P>I signed up for illusionist to CC and buff (breeze/haste, etc.).  So I understand why some of you are upset.  However, I think it is time for us to face the facts and realize that will NEVER be our role in this game.  Stop asking for better CC, because you will never get it.  This game was specifically designed with the idea of removing CC as a necessity.  It is a slightly usefull ability to be used once or twice a night, nothing more.  It is NOT our class-defining ability in this game any more.  The sooner you get used to that idea, the happier you will be.</P> <P>That being said, it doesn't seem like they have fixed our class at this point.  At the currently nerfed level of our utility, we really should be doing 80-90% of wiz/warlock DPS, since we bring very little extra utility to the table.  Looking at our spell lists and theirs, I can't see how we are possibly going to be doing 80-90% of their damage at this point.  So I'm really hoping they give us a bump in that department.</P> <P>I know its not what some of you other enchanters were looking for, but its the best you are going to get, so take it and be happy.  If we come out of this with a viable class of any description, we will be better off than we currently are.</P> <P>By the way, to the poster who was saying haste will be more important.  You are right, but you don't understand that our new haste spell takes one concentration slot per group member.  That, combined with the fact that a TON of our other spells also use concentration, some three slots, means that we will rarely, if ever, be hasting anyone, or at the most one group member.</P> <P>Claudius</P>

[enc]

kinda agree with last post...  I signed up for utility (well i had the enchanter vision of everquest1), but i can understand that this game is made of archetypes. So if we have to lose utility and gain dps, so be it. But then why are we doing so little damages? looking at other classes spells screenshots, all in all we dont seem to have our dps that bumped...

[Oghi]

<P>Enc, that's my concern as well.</P> <P>I have decided I love the basic direction of the changes.  We get DPS through Charm, illusory Duplicates and the like.  That's some neat stuff, and it's more interesting than "Phantasmal Ice Comet" or "Shadowy Sorta-Devastation-Alike" would have been.  However, it looks like our DPS has been doubled, all the way up to 20% of a sorcerer's output <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Our top nuke still does only 1/10th the damage that theirs does, and having a doppelganger casting it as well isn't going to close the gap.</P>

[KornRollKid]

<P>Well looking at posts throughout this thread yes charm and the doppleganger sounds interesting and this will bring a new experience.</P> <P>I just hope our dps is good and a few have mentioned that our nuke or nukes are 1/10th of our brothers and sisters wizards and warlocks this must be looked into</P> <P>dps is great but without one nuke to do somewhat good damage (not on par with warlocks or wizards) but maybe half or so atleast .</P> <P>Now im only guessing here cause as ive said i havent played on Test ofcourse or beta but i do see where this is a prob as another poster mentioned.</P>

[thrownho]

First off, to the poster who said haste will be more useful now, I believe that you are wrong. It has been halved in it's effect from 60ish% to 30% or so depending on the upgrade level. Second of all, considering that every single one of our buffs, including insight, uses concentration now, some up to 3 slots, I can assure you that there will NEVER be a situation where speeding up one persons auto-attack damage will be more important than keeping one of our other buffs up on the whole group. Haste might as well have been removed and replaced. Second of all, Oghier, in my opinion, if you wanted pure dps you should not have become an illusionist. I understand that you're happy with the changes, but MOST Illusionists did NOT pick this class for dps, we picked it for utility, crowd control, buffs, etc. If I wanted dps, I would have been a sorceror. As it is now, we have the SAME utility that other mages have, but we still have far inferior dps. Check the spell screenshots, our best DoTs and our best straight nuke have gone DOWN in damage. The only spells that have gone up are Psychotic Spectrum and Color Shower, our 2 level 50 AoEs. Nothing else. Our dps, judging from the spell descriptions, has actually gone down in single target situations, and has gone slightly up in AoE situations at level 50. Yes, charm and our pet might help, but that's 3 concentration slots, and there is very rarely a random solo mob around to charm when raiding or in group situations. However, like I said, dps should not be the focus of this class. Can you honestly tell me right now why any group in their right mind would pick us over a sorceror? There's nothing wrong with having a positive attitude, I've had one about my class for the past 8 months, always being sure that we would get the fixes we need, but if we don't speak up right now we will miss our opportunity and these changes will go to live the way they are. As it is right now, we are barely even mediocre. I, for one, do not want to see our class become extinct, but I fear it will if they follow through with this. While some will be happy with increased dps, most of us playing illusionists (as you can see from reading the illusionist board) did not pick this class for dps, and it is not what we wanted. Eloze 50 Illusionist of Oasis <div></div>

[Flipmode]

<P>Look, if they wanna take all our utility away, they need to increase our DPS.  Its that simple.  This charm and duplicae spell does not cut it.  Forget all other archetypes.  Just look at mages.  If warlock are 100% and encs are like 10% compared to warlocks, we were hurting very much before these updates.  They used the reason of our utility to justify this DPS gap.</P> <P>Now they have taken that utility and nerfed it to hell and back, but they only give us 20% of warlock DPS still.  I ask, How is that balanced?  We dont have anymore utility than any other mage now so shouldnt we be doing the same damage as them?  Its this idiocy that boggles my mind.  Who thought this up and that one very important point escaped them?  If they take away our utility they have to really increase our DPS.</P> <P>Honestly, we would be better off rerolling a summoner or sorc.  They are killing this class off.  Why would you play a class that has no more utility than other mages but does 20% of the damage?</P>

[Flipmode]

<P>Another thing that escapes peoples notice, our charm spell allows us to char NON-HEROIC mobs.  Good luck finding some of those in higher lvl zones and dungeons.</P> <P>They did this same thing to enchanters on the playstation verion of everquest.  Gave enchanters a worthless charm.  They made it so anything good wasnt charmable or in important zones.  All it really boils down to is a polite "here are you happy?"  How usefull will it really be?</P>

[ClaudiustheG]

<P>Eloze, you are a DPS class.  Its not what you expected when you signed up, its not what I expected when I signed up.  Both of us had EQ1 enchanters in mind.  But that is not what is going to happen in this game.  You will never get meaningfull crowd control.  You will never get buffs that are much better than anyone elses.  You will never get those things, because they are simply not part of the mage archetype.  You are talking about a fifth archetype, a "utility" archetype, but that doesn't exist.</P> <P>What you will get is DPS, since that is part of the mage archetype.  So the best you can do is help the devs see that our DPS needs to be 80-90% of sorcerer DPS, with somewhat better utility to compensate.  The worst case scenario would be for enchanters to remain at 10-20% of sorcerer DPS, and still not get much better utility.  I know a lot of you would prefer to get much better utility, but you aren't going to get it.  It just doesn't fit into the archetype system.</P> <P>The sooner you realize that the devs are not going to recreate EQ1 enchanters, the happier you will be.</P> <P>Claudius</P>

[Flipmode]

<P>Ok we are a DPS class in the mage archetype.  I never played EQ1 so I have no preconcieved ideas about encs.  Where is our DPS?  You cant honestly say that our 300-400 nuke makes us a DPS compared to the thousands that wizzy/warlocks can hit for.  You cant tell me a second rate pet can compare to a conj/necro pet.  So what do we have left...mana regen?  That is very nerfed now too and we are still in the same boat as now...breeze bot, not DPS.  If people want DPS, they will pick the class that does it better than us.</P> <P>Im all for a DPS role with utility but the amount of DPS we are doing in this revamp is not consistent with our low utility role.  So please, stop spouting we are DPS when our DPS is still pathetic post revamp.  When SOE makes us do true DPS, then I will be quiet and take the nerfs that were given to us.</P>

[thrownho]

<div></div>Flipmode, you took the words right out of my mouth. Claudius I understand what you're saying, and I agree to a point, but go look at our current spells on test....we received absolutely nothing to compensate for the fact that everything we have now on live is being taken away. I think they reduced our utility far too drastically, they should have at least given us upgraded stuns, and left Insight alone, and maybe fixed our root spell to assist in solo situations....and they definitely should have left mez alone, it was fine in the few situations it was needed. However, they removed all these things, and went as far as to lower our single target DPS by downgrading our high level DoTs and our one good nuke. If things are to be balanced, we need to receive an equal amount of abilities to compensate for those that are being taken away. This is clearly not the case. We lose everything and gain nothing, not even the much promised DPS. We are quickly becoming a class without a purpose, and as much as I hated being a buff bot, at least I was SOMETHING, at least I was useful, which is something that no longer holds true. Also, I'd like to add that while this pet idea is nice, it is just turning us into a weak summoner. They now have the same utility as us, better nukes, better DoTs, and better pets. So what's the point of our class even existing if we add nothing that someone else doesn't already do far better? Oh, and I never played an enchanter in EQ1, so my choice for this class was not based on that whatsoever, but instead on what I read in the descriptions, and the fact that I thought having the ability to do some crowd control would be fun. The assumptions that I have now on what my class should be are based on the past 8 months of playing an illusionist, and on the MANY comments made by the devs stating that "illusionists dps comes from the buffs they are able to bestow on others and their utility"...no clue why they made those comments if they're now turning the class into just pure dps, since apparently giving someone utility is just too hard to balance, so why not just give us plain old nukes disguised as dots and pets? I just hope that when this is all over I'm not just plain dps, because I really really enjoy playing my class now and being able to change the outcome of a fight using my crowd control and buffs. Eloze 50 Illusionist of Oasis <div></div><p>Message Edited by thrownhope on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 AM</span>

[Snive]

<div></div><font face="Arial">My thoughts exactly, Eloze. I never played EQ1. I actually came from the sinking ship of DAoC so I have no preconceieve notions of the Enchanter greatness of EQ1.</font><blockquote><blockquote><font color="#ffffcc" face="Arial">From: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=21175&query.id=0#M21175</font><font face="Arial"><span></span><span></span></font></blockquote><font face="Arial"><span></span></font><blockquote><hr><font color="#99ffff">Every class will have its damage adjusted as part of our overall changes to the combat system. We're not giving a specific date for this yet.</font><div><font color="#99ffff"> </font></div><div><font color="#99ffff">Enchanters should be able to solo effectively, but keep in mind that Illusionists and Coercers really shine when they're in a group. Of all the mages, they have the most group-oriented capabilities, not only for crowd control but also for enhancing the abilities of their groupmates. It's the nature of the class that a lot of the damage potential of Enchanters comes from the allies they buff.</font></div><font color="#99ffff">===========================</font><font color="#99ffff">Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard</font><font color="#99ffff">Game Designer, EverQuest II</font><hr></blockquote></blockquote><i><font color="#ffffff">Now what?</font></i><blockquote><blockquote><span><font color="#ffffcc">From: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=46825&query.id=0#M46825<span></span></font></span></blockquote><blockquote><font face="Arial"><span><font color="#ffffcc"><span></span></font></span></font></blockquote><font face="Arial"><span><font color="#ffffcc"><span></span></font></span></font><blockquote><hr></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><font color="#99ffff">My earlier comment about part of Enchanter DPS being made up of their effect on group/raid members has caused some to presume that Illusionists and Coercers won't be getting any kind of damage increase with the new balance changes. This is an incorrect assumption. While Enchanters will remain lower than other Mage professions in straight damage output, they will be rising in the relative DPS ranking. </font><p><font color="#99ffff">===========================</font><font color="#99ffff">Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard</font><font color="#99ffff">Game Designer, EverQuest II</font><i><font color="#ffffff"></font></i></p><hr></blockquote></blockquote><i><font color="#ffffff">Being at the lower end is fine, exactly what I expect. What makes up for the missing relative DPS?</font></i><span><font color="#ffffcc"><span></span></font></span><font face="Arial">What has changed since those responses were posted. This is exactly what I was expecting and very much hoping for in the "revamp", but I'm not seeing it.It's funny, a lot of the classes are voicing their concern with their new reduction in damage output, crying foul. Illusionists, for the majority, seem to be voicing their concern for the opposite.There is nothing wrong with each archetype having a utility class in it. There seems to be a niche sublass for each one, ready to happen. Paladin, Troubador, Warden, (just throwing subclasses out there. I could easily say Dirge and Mystic.) and Illusionist as quick Qeynos examples. Each of these classes fit their archetype and can assist everyone in their group through archetype related utility They may not excel at any particular thing solo but put them in a group and everyone becomes that much better at whatever the archetype represents. Perfectly viable utility within the new system.That was just a quick idea, but it is perfectly viable for an archtype to belong to the new archetype ladder and still be a utility subclass. Even Moorgard has said as much with the above quotes.</font><div></div>

[Twobox]

<P>Disgraceful.</P> <P>In the descriptions that STILL EXIST on the EQ2 Home Page, this game promised to provide 4 distinct play-styles: Tank, Heal, DPS, and Crowd Control. </P> <P>Yes, Crowd Control is a PLAY STYLE. One that requires much different skills than any of the others.</P> <P>And within those, it promised to offer options like different tanking styles, different healing styles, different DPS styles, different crowd control styles, as well as Hybrid options.</P> <P>From the Archetype Descriptions on the EQ2 Home page . . .</P> <P><STRONG>Enchanter - Enchanters use mystical powers to beguile and control their enemies. By instilling Confusion and Misdirection in the minds of their adversaries, Enchanters give their comrades an advantage in battle.</STRONG></P> <P>I'll spare you the redundant descriptions of Illusionist and Coercer..</P> <P>Does it mention damage anywhere in there?</P> <P>This clearly states the intention to make Illusionists different than other classes. Part of the Mage archetype? Surely, they can do damage and perform the archetype role of the mage. But compared to other mages their nukes are - and SHOULD be - quite weak because of their other powers, and the advantages they provide.</P> <P>If you wanted DPS, and chose Enchanter . . . well, to put it kindly, you made an error.</P> <P>If you wanted DPS via spell you had the Sorcerers.</P> <P>If you wanted DPS via melee, you had the Predators.</P> <P>Don't tell me you chose Enchanter to do the same damage as an Ice Comet except by using a spell that "confused the enemy into thinking it was damaged." Did you really expect the class definitions to prove merely cosmetic?</P> <P>Knowing EQ2s intent, now look at EQ1 and other games . . . the <STRONG>core characteristics</STRONG> of the Enchanter Class have always been <STRONG>Crowd Control</STRONG> (i.e., medium-risk damage avoidance), <STRONG>Charm</STRONG> (high-risk damage avoidance, damage contribution), <STRONG>COMBAT-USEFUL Illusions</STRONG> (i.e., Illusions that buff, proc, or invis), and the creation of mystical <STRONG>enchanted items</STRONG>.</P> <P>Sure sounds like it fits the EQ2 description, eh?</P> <P>Well, we have none of that in EQ2 Version 1, and it seems we will get none of that in EQ2 Version 2. (See exception below)</P> <P>As I and others have said many times (see other Illusionist threads, e.g.), the whole design of the game works against Crowd Control, so a fix to just the Enchanter Class is not enough. </P> <P>Sheesh, there isn't even a message telling you who and what broke mezz.</P> <P>But, as someone said above, the fix to the GAME is not forthcoming.</P> <P>The biggest plus for us in EQ2 Version 2 is Charm, and that will (well, if done right) certainly address soloing. And I suspect some Raid Encounters will have a charmable mob tucked away . . . whether it will be alive long enough for you to charm depends on how many noob Bruisers or Wizards you bring along.</P> <P>But if I wanted to do Pet-DPS . . . I would have rolled a CONJURER, and brought my own pet with me.</P> <P>Disgraceful.</P> <P><STRONG>So here's my humble suggestion to SOE . . .</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>1. Admit you made a mistake you can not or will not correct.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>2. Delete the Enchanter Class.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>3. Allow every Enchanter to choose either a Sorcerer or Conjurer, move the Enchanter's equipment over to the new toon, and allow the player to choose which of their old Master 1s, Adept 3s, etc from their old Enchanter will become some other spell of the same level on their new toon.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>4. Distribute any unique skills (cough) that would be lost by deleting Enchanters to some other caster or a melee class.</STRONG></P> <P>[Hint: You could probably do the same for the virtually useless Rogue Class lol. Why is it they give up some DPS vs Predators again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ?  Oh, right, they have more HPs. Yeah that does it. Oh, and you're gonna fix that now in Version 2, right? ]</P> <P>Meanwhile, those of us who <STRONG>did NOT want to TANK, HEAL, or DPS</STRONG> will go play a game where we can do Crowd Control.</P> <P>And those EQ2 Enchanters who want DPS will get their wish.</P> <p>Message Edited by Twobox on <span class=date_text>08-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:18 PM</span>

[neria]

<DIV><FONT size=2>What he said ^^.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>If I wanted to be a sorcerer, I would play a sorcerer. I want to be an illusionist. Not sorcerer3a. This whole "archetype" system that SOE seems to be clinging to is a mess. The thought of bruisers tanking as well as guardians, of bards doing more damage than berserkers, and of illusionists not counting on ILLUSIONS, is ridiculous.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I remember a post in which Moorguard said something about the description in the manual of berserkers doing lots of damage was "just lore" and "for flavor". That disturbed me, and it just gets worse the more I think about it. The entire game is built on lore. ROLE-PLAYING game, remember? Otherwise it's just a semi-random number generator with pretty pictures. Once a class stops following its lore, it is broken.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>It's supposed to be immersive; a berserker with a huge two-handed axe doing less damage than a bard with a little dagger is not immersive. It's supposed to be fun, challenging, let us use our imaginations and come up with different strategies. This combat revamp, with the dumbed-down shoving everyone equally into their archetypes, no spell scaling by level, no equipment growth, either solo or get a 6-person group, is not the game I want to play. Just because some people couldn't understand their class and rolled the wrong one for what they want to primarily do, is no reason to punish the rest of us with over-simplification.</FONT></DIV>

[enc]

<P>already said my opinions some posts earlier bu wanted to add a question:</P> <P>Why was mez nerfed? Everybody ( by that i mean enchanters AND others) kept saying mez wasnt needed 99% of the time. It was just slowing the group down...   So why nerfing that ability? </P> <P>Devs always said that some class had to be better than others in some kind of situations, well we were bad in 99% but at least we had this 1% where we shined....</P>

[ClaudiustheG]

<P>The mez nerf is a mystery, and as far as I know was not predicted or asked for by anyone.  I suspect that the devs looked into the crowd control situation, realized it wasn't working, and decided that it would be just too difficult to fix it in a meaningfull way.  So, by nerfing it down, it becomes a very rarely used piece of situational utility and cannot be thought of as our "class defining" role.  In other words, since our class-defining role wasn't working, they redefined the class instead of fixing it.</P> <P>I don't want people to think that I prefer for our role to be DPS.  I would really rather be what we all thought we would be, which is crowd control and group utility.  However, I can see the handwriting on the wall, and I don't think we are going to get that.  Failing that, my fallback position is DPS at 80-90% of sorcerer levels, since we would no longer be broken at that point.  It's not what I really want, but it's what I think I'm most likely to get.  What I'm most afraid of is that they are done with us, and DoF will go live with us in our current form, broken again.</P> <DIV>Claudius</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  I am currently on test leveling up an illusionist as fast as I can so I can provide meaningful input.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ClaudiustheGod on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:19 AM</span>

[OperationsX]

<P>Well I don't get that at all, why would they increase charm and pet powess and decrease their utility?? Didn't they learn a lesson in EQ1 where charm was just overpowering and ruined the game and so they squashed it in GoD, why would they go down and repeat the same mistakes? I don't even see how charm in this game would be that good anyway.</P> <P>Man I feel so sorry for illusionists, they are so getting the run around :smileysad:</P>

[ScamprinSlippy]

<DIV>I'm much less upset about the changes than I was when I first read them, I think its quite likely our class will be more fun to play after this, assuming Sony can balance all these changes (i'll be very pleased if they can pull that off).  In concept they aren't all bad, just most of them are FAR too extreme in their execution.  They are really shocking, and it makes me feel like all these months have been spent playing beta... so I think every chanter has the right to feel a bit insulted by this, even if we come out of it as a perfectly useful class.  It is a very very BIG change for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing I'd like to add to what has been posted already is the <U>concept</U> of chanter regen.  In EQ1 chanter regen was a complete non issue once combat started due to its absurd duration.  It was far far too easy to use and involved no choices at all.  EQ2 started with the idea that we were going to stay away from that, so they gave us short duration breeze so that we had to weigh our options and make decisions before breezing a target.  T<U>he idea behind it was great, but in practice it was absolutely horrible and craptastic, we just clicked breeze all day</U>.  Then we got the 15 minute breeze (thankfully), but we still kept on clicking.  Imagine being on an 8 hour raid breezing 24 people.  I've been in that situation several times now in SotL, and its exhausting, and it doesnt involve choice or consequence really cause we do breeze everyone... we just have to click like mad to do it. I dont like the way breeze works now, or before, but I do like doing utility... I think we can do regen without being a mind numbing task.  Now we are getting a concentration spell that completely removes it from our hands, its like EQ1 in a way... our breeze involves absolutely no choices, effort, or consequences, it requires no thought at all.  Our special department has been downsized and a machine has taken our job, and we've been given another job thats more generic.  <FONT color=#cccc00>I'm okay with having a group only conentration breeze... but couldn't we get another spell, maybe a breeze that can go on anyone in the raid, but only one person at a time, so that we can have some decisions to make when using our class defining skill?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccc00>I'd love to hear some chanter feedback on that, cause I don't want to be that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] who whines and gets something changed for the class when no one else agrees on it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Slippy Shortcakes</DIV> <DIV>50 Illusionist Crushbone</DIV> <P>Message Edited by ScamprinSlippy on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:13 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by ScamprinSlippy on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:17 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by ScamprinSlippy on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:19 AM</span>

[Kayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Surianka wrote:<BR><BR>But this... I just don't get it.  I was expecting the combat changes to be big, but not to turn classes completely head over heels... not to re-structure the BASIS for my class.  The defining abilities of my class.  The reasons I'm invited along for groups and raids.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree with you here, Surianka.  It seems that what people have come to expect from a class has been toppled over and reversed and that's just not acceptable.  People spent a lot of time making characters and alts, of which one of mine is Illusionist.  She's young still, but, I seriously doubt I'm going to invest anymore time and plat into it if all that is written here is true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is Sony thinking???  To re-learn characters so brutally is just not in the interest of their game.  If this goes LIVE I can see the "I QUIT" posts being locked by the threadfuls.  But we shall see I suppose.  It doesn't look promising though from what I'm reading so far.  I don't feel enthused at all.  That's unfortunate for Sony and if I were them, I'd address it quick before everyone goes into panic mode again.</DIV>

[thrownho]

Slippy, I don't think giving us a second breeze would make the situation any better, but rather just leaving Insight as it was, changing the recast to 3 or 4 seconds, and making the duration around 1 hour. That would get rid of the need to spam this spell during a raid and would leave our ability to be a bit useful. I just wish they would actually listen to what we are saying, though I highly doubt it will happen. There are already 3 posts by illusionists on the front page of this forum, and I have a feeling that they will just keep piling up until we realize that SoE is simply not going to listen, and that the only option may be quitting. I have invested far too much into this character to be forced into quitting now simply because SoE spontaneously decided to completely redesign the class. Eloze 50 Illusionist of Oasis <div></div>

[Calman]

I feel for you all, and fully understand your pain. ... Unhappy Troubador <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Belizarius]

<P>Well well well.</P> <P>As far as DPS goes, it's very hard to comment.  Looks like all classes are affected by DPS changes, so relatively speaking who knows where we stand?  Probably not too badly off.  But, if I expected a primary DPS class I would have gone sorceror.</P> <P>But the utility changes are indeed mind boggling.</P> <P>Granted that mez is not commonly needed, it's still rather nice when it <EM><STRONG>is</STRONG> </EM>needed, to be the one class that can do it well.  With 2 mezzes we can currently perma mez a group of 4 or 5 if we have to.  Takes a while to get them locked down, can be risky, and can't do much else, but you <STRONG>can</STRONG> do it.  Now it looks like we will be hard pressed to perma mez a single mob.  Not my idea of <STRONG>CROWD</STRONG> control.  How do we handle whole group adds?  Group mez still looks like a joke.  This change frankly makes the class less fun to play, and situationally less important.  Plus fights will probably be lasting longer than they do now.  Would it have killed anyone to leave mez alone?</P> <P>And the buffs.  Do they think that making our best buffs own-group only, will make the class more popular because there is more demand on raids?  Think again.  You play the class because it is fun/appealing.  There is already a shortage of chanters on raids.  Raising the demand while nerfing the bits that made it fun/unique will not solve anything.</P> <P>Charmed pets? Could care less for pets.  Pets tend to be either useless, or game-breaking and nerf-prone.  It is so hard to get charm properly balanced.  Look at the track record with Coercers.  No thanks.  And we already have a mage pet class.</P> <P>Doppleganger?  People asked for this, and I think it is a cool idea.</P> <P>Concentration?  I guess all classes will be affected, and I actually like the idea behind the mechanics.  What I don't see is how concentration affects the straight DPS types versus buffing classes.  There's not much concetration required for a nuke, is there?  So, concentration inherently tends to nerf the buffers more.</P> <P>This puts me in a bind.  As a casual player who has been playing since day 1, my only character (Illusionist) is just shy of 40, and most of my guild is 45+.  I wanted a play style that was more subtle than spam DPS.  If these changes make the class too useless or too different from what I signed up for, I'd probably feel forced to start again.  Play a priest, because as long as mobs do damage they can never totally nerf priests, can they?   BUT I just don't see myself having the time to start all over again.</P>

[ScamprinSlippy]

<P>Thrownhope, re-read my post, your solution doesn't involve choice or consequences, and those are the two things I said I'd personally like to see in our breeze spells, and I think its what SOE had in mind when they started this game... I just think they gave up on it cause they couldnt figure out how to do it, and recently decided to scrap the whole combat system anyway.  Your solution would be less tedious than the current setup, but its still something a drunk person could do.  IMO breezing should involve a choice of WHO is gettin the nicest regen, not just a single spell thats a concentration buff, or a spell cast across the raid members that is an incredibly long duration like you suggested, which is EXACTLY what KEI was in EQ1, and it was something a child could do.</P> <P><FONT color=#99cc00>I know this isn't the biggest concern for enchanters right now, but I think it's still relevant.  Breeze has always been incredibly simple, but tedious, and now its just not even there... we won't breeze anymore.  With the revamp I can click a button and go afk for 8 hours and I will still be breezing.  We all agree we like utility spells, right? Thats why we chose this class.  Well wouldn't it be nice if we could do something with those utility spells rather than just be crappy mages that oozes power?  <FONT color=#ff0000>Think about it guys... the summoners and wizards will be actually doing the regen on the raids, we won't.</FONT>  They have to chose who to supply the regen too, meanwhile we can completely forget about such utility, and just do DPS.  We will just be picking our noses and clicking nukes.  Thats not a utility class.  Thats not what we chose this class for, if anyone you wanted to be a DPS class with a passive regen ability, then Bard was the class for you.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by ScamprinSlippy on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:47 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by ScamprinSlippy on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:48 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by ScamprinSlippy on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:51 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by ScamprinSlippy on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:06 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by ScamprinSlippy on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:07 PM</span>

[Belizarius]

<P>Another look, more thoughts.</P> <P>I don't mind the concentration stuff in principle, even like it.  Don't mind what they've done with Insight, actually.  Charm and doppleganger are soloing tools, and its either/or on those, fair enough I guess (Hmm if you have the choice between a gimped version of yourself or an even con mob, which would you pick? lol).  In groups, we have at least 2 other group buffs (Seal of Comprehension, Aspect of Mind) using conc, so at best there's 2 group members who get haste and/or dynamism (which are 1 conc each per target).  Hmm.   I guess now there's room for more than 1 chanter per group, but I doubt it will be seen as effective to do so.</P> <P>As stated, even with the level fixed up group invis (Illusory Shroud) is useless.  To ferry across zones needs longer duration, or else even to use it to leapfrog encounters (as I often do to get to quest mobs), it needs LOWER concentration.  It's going to be a real pain to drop 3 buffs, invis, run for 2 mins, drop invis and redo the 3 buffs on a routine basis.  Please make group invis useful by either increasing to 15 mins or droppping to 1 conc.</P> <P>And as for the see invis buff (Shift Vision), 3 conc for that is insane.  Can't use it when fighting with hardly anything in terms of buffs on your allies, can't use it when invising your group, can't use it when soloing with pet/dopple, when the heck are you going to use it?  Never!  Rethink pls, this should be 0 or 1 conc at most, it's a marginally useful buff anyway.</P> <P>Power regen and DPS figures have to be considered in the light of what other classes get, so in the absence of more info I'll refrain.</P>

[Woodcraft]

<P>I feel these changes are what is needed for the Illusionist.</P> <P>It will give us the ability to solo for a change. Set duration spells is what is needed.</P> <P>Finally we will be needed by raids. As it is, one Illusionist for one raid. But the upcoming change will requires one Illusionist per group in the raid.</P> <P>Concentration requirements will force some thought and skill into how you play. This is obviously upsetting some people. However not having to cast breeze and haste over and over rocks.</P>

[Twobox]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Woodcrafter wrote:<BR> <P>I feel these changes are what is needed for the Illusionist.</P> <P><STRONG>Really? To me they seem to be the final step in eliminating the Crowd Control play style. What is it that YOU wanted to do as an Illusionist (as opposed to what you could already do with some other class) that these changes give you?</STRONG></P> <P>It will give us the ability to solo for a change. Set duration spells is what is needed.</P> <P><STRONG>This would be terrific . . . even the crowd control class needs to be able to solo. But this change is like putting new headlights on a car with no engine. It fixes something, for sure, but you still don't have transportation. People chose this class for Crowd Control, and the sum total of proposed changes makes an already bad situation worse.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>You don't NEED set duration spells if you are good at what you do . . . set duration spells just dumbs down the game.</STRONG></P> <P>Finally we will be needed by raids. As it is, one Illusionist for one raid. But the upcoming change will requires one Illusionist per group in the raid.</P> <P><STRONG>Needed at raids? Really!?! OK, suppose I accept your notion that raid leaders will need to make a choice . . . take an extra chanter in each group, or go for DPS. What do YOU think they will do?</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>And if by some miracle, you are correct and raid leaders WANT more chanters . . . where in the name of heaven will they get them from? Hardly anyone wants to play a chanter now, and it will be worse as those of us who were waiting and hoping for a boost in crowd control requirements finally give up completely.</STRONG></P> <P>Concentration requirements will force some thought and skill into how you play. This is obviously upsetting some people. However not having to cast breeze and haste over and over rocks.</P> <P><STRONG>Skill? Pfft. You make a choice . . . buff, mezz, or pet . . . and then you are comitted and done. The real skill would rest in being able to do ALL of those things . . . if you are talented and experienced enough.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>But apparently that's exactly what SOE does NOT want in this game.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><EM>In summary, you seem happy because you can now solo, you think you will be more needed in groups, your wrists won't hurt, and your choices are simpler because they are so restricted. I trust you notice that NONE of these "improvements" has anything to do with being an Enchanter.<BR></EM></STRONG></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by Twobox on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:50 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Twobox on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:50 PM</span>

[retro_guy]

I can only imagine that they intend to up the number of concentration slots to cover having so many slots used for spells now. 10 slots would probably be just enough to allow you to pick and choose what spells you want to cast for a particular encounter. If not, the game will be virtually unplayable. <div></div>

[MillsFairchild]

I sincerely doubt they'll be upping the slots.  The idea being that you're supposed to pick and choose which buffs/spells you want to use on a situation to situation basis.  Yes, I think they made some poor choices as far as how many concentration slots certains spells are using, rendering some of our buffs virtually useless.  But allowing people to cast everything they've got at once will just make the game as mindless as it was before the changes... which is something I don't think they're shooting for.<div></div>

[Tendonit]

On one hand we still do not know everything to make a judgement, on the other hand there is enough information to give me an impression that whoever is redesigning our class is like a madman creating some monstrosity, that will HAVE to be fixed to make it at least playable. Most of the changes defy logic. What was the solo strategy for those who even bothered to solo? Pick a group of 2 or 3 mobs, mezz all, then kill them one at a time. If you had to face a solo mob at high levels, you have to drain power and if that did not help enough (how about warlock-type mobs that hit for 400? while i cannot hit with melee  AT ALL), then deploy stuns and be patient. There is strategy in that, the only problem we had no DPS to back it up and our "better" AoE spells simply do not fit in this strategy. If we had a single nuke that does about 800 DD, over 1000 at Master I, we would have nothing to complain about. This is not asking much, because a fighter with a nice fabled weapon would still put that DPS to shame and a master spell is the only equivalent of a fabled weapon for mages. So what do we get instead? A charm and a pet and better AoE spells. It does not matter how much better I will be able to solo with those, they do not belong to my class. They belong to coercer and conjuror respectively. If we were handed ability to heal and wear plate armor, I would be equally unhappy. The other mind boggling change is our group utility spells. I have no problem with not being able to breeze the entire raid, always hated doing that. It is fine that we are no longer the only crack giving class. It did not make sense to me in the first place. But why destroy our group invis ability? Is there someone in the devs team that hates our class so much? It is not fair that a fury, of all classes, should monopolise the group invis ability, while the only mage class that had it ihas to lose it. Try to make sense, whoever is responsible for this nonsene! 50 Illusionist <div></div>

[Xalibur]

<P>welcome to the summoner class !</P> <P>enchanters are a pet class now, lets see how long it takes them to merge us with the summoners, as they can mez already..</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Chath]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ClaudiustheGod wrote:<BR> <P>I signed up for illusionist to CC and buff (breeze/haste, etc.).  So I understand why some of you are upset.  However, I think it is time for us to face the facts and realize that will NEVER be our role in this game.  Stop asking for better CC, because you will never get it.  This game was specifically designed with the idea of removing CC as a necessity.  It is a slightly usefull ability to be used once or twice a night, nothing more.  It is NOT our class-defining ability in this game any more.  The sooner you get used to that idea, the happier you will be.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, crowd control is vital in the game.  It's just that tanks are largely responsible for it, and that's not gonna change any time soon.</P> <P>Taunt <EM>is</EM> a form of crowd control.  Aggro management <EM>is</EM> a form of crowd control.  EQ2 put enchanters out of business by giving the better tank classes all the crowd control the game needs.</P>

[ClaudiustheG]

<P>Yeah, I guess that's really what is different from EQ1.  Tanks used to only be able to survive being bashed by single mobs - now they can survive getting bashed by a whole group, so it's no longer necessary to mez the rest of the group.</P> <P>I just hope they up the damage on our single-target nukes.  If we're going to be mages, we may as well be mages.  I'm tired of throwing spitballs, especially since I'm going to be spending a lot more of my time doing it now.</P> <P>Claudius</P>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<P>plz leave coercers out of this, dont you make the same mistake as ya have in the past by calling a huge nerfstick on us again!</P> <P>the illusionists (mayo was his name or something) have crucified coercers to the wall when the game went live! We have had it far worse then you guys since day 1!</P> <P>I do hope your issues will get addressed and i am sorry to hear so many people will quit due to these changes, there are still some issues we are working on in the coercer forums but plz for the love of god do not try to nerf us even harder, we are having it just as hard as you guys do! DONT PULL A FREAKING MAYO ON US!</P>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:<BR> <P>plz leave coercers out of this, dont you make the same mistake as ya have in the past by calling a huge nerfstick on us again!</P> <P>the illusionists (mayo was his name or something) have crucified coercers to the wall when the game went live! We have had it far worse then you guys since day 1!</P> <P>I do hope your issues will get addressed and i am sorry to hear so many people will quit due to these changes, there are still some issues we are working on in the coercer forums but plz for the love of god do not try to nerf us even harder, we are having it just as hard as you guys do! DONT PULL A FREAKING MAYO ON US!</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>HUNGRY Dis-ILLUSIONIST:  Ya...I would like to order One Fixed Illusionist, Hold the 'Mayo".</P> <P>SOE DEV: Would you like Charm with that?</P> <P>HUNGRY Dis-ILLUSIONIST:  No but, can you leave the CC on it and can I substitute the Group Invis for another stun or maybe you have one left over from the last batch.  That one in the window looks like it is spoiled.</P> <P>SOE DEV: Let me go in back and check...Do you want Hot, Medium or Mild DPS?</P> <P>HUNGRY Dis-ILLUSIONIST:  Well considering I haven't ever had any DPS I think I will try the Medium.  I hear that is about 80% of what a Sorc can do, that last batch was about 10% and was way to wattery, anything 60-80% will be fine.  Hey that Doppleganger Bun...is that a tank class or am I still going to get beat on when I solo.  It looks like a weaker version of me if that is even possible.</P> <P>SOE DEV:  Not Sure, would you like a substitution?</P> <P>HUNGRY Dis-ILLUSIONIST:  Sure, can I get the lite version of the Conj tank pet.  Keep the HP and Taunt the same but remove the DPS.  Just give me something so that I do not have to tank when solo and make up for the DPS in regular spells.  I won't be able to use him in groups do to the shrtage of Conc slots so make sure I have plenty of DPS without him please.</P> <P>SOE DEV:  I will see if I have any left, anything else?</P> <P>HUNGRY Dis-ILLUSIONIST:  Well, I came to EQ2 as an Illusionist, some Illusions would be nice but I am in a Hurry so don't put them in if they aren't ready.  But the toy suprise, can I get a BUFF?  I am an Illusionist after all.  When I got in this line rather than the Sorc line the menu read 'Kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] Buffs' and 'Enhancer of Groups'.  Now that I am at the window...they are no longer here...Can you make sure the Buff toy you throw in the bag fits that description?</P> <P>SOE DEV:  I will see waht I have, pull up to the second Window.</P>

[thrownho]

Edited the original post due to the fact that we do not seem to get charm, that was just some sort of temporary bug. Eloze 50 Illusionist of Oasis <div></div>

[Twobox]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chatham wrote:<BR> <P>Actually, crowd control is vital in the game.  It's just that tanks are largely responsible for it, and that's not gonna change any time soon.</P> <P>Taunt <EM>is</EM> a form of crowd control.  Aggro management <EM>is</EM> a form of crowd control.  EQ2 put enchanters out of business by giving the better tank classes all the crowd control the game needs.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>LOL - couldn't be said more succinctly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, I *could* say that "tank" refers primarily to "Guardian". And I could say that Aggro management doesn't mitigate or avoid damage. But that would be picky, because you are essentially correct.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In an effort to avoid EQ1's "Holy Trinity" of WAR, CLR, ENC they have now given us GUARDIAN, HEALER-type-1, HEALER-type-2 lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which is why SOE should admit they made a mistake they can not or will not fix, allow all of us who were mislead to choose to be a Conjurer or Wizard, move our current equipment directly over, tranlsate our App/Adept/Master spells to the equivalent ones in the new class, give us a respec, and eliminate the Illusionists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh. Give Breeze to the Conjurer in the form of a power-giving pet. Haste? Really not necessary. Invis? Leave it to the Scouts.</DIV>

[Oghi]

<FONT size=2>Agreed.  People say the archetype system reduces the game to four classes.  I think it's really three classes -- tank, healer and DPS.  All three classes are split into different flavors (e.g., do you want to DPS with a dagger, bow, skeleton, nuke or charmed pet?), and utility functions are spread fairly evenly amongst *all* classes.  This streamlining certainly makes it easier fo form groups and balance encounters, but it does lack much of the tactical variety of EQ1.</FONT>

[Surian]

Re-read the edited (original) post... while charm looked like a way for us to possibly be better at some kinds of soloing, I must say I'm rather relieved to hear that we don't get it.  The dopp-'pet' is bad enough, I'm not a summoner.  Also, thanks to the original post, I must say I'm baffled at the idea of making the pet cast roots/mezzes at random, and I agree with the OP's summation: making the pet cast those at random (without some kind of strategy) is useless, and wastes the pet's time (and power!) I, like some of the other posters in this thread, did not play EQ1.  In fact, EQII is my first MMORPG ever (scary, I know.)  I did not come into this game with any preconceived notions of what my class would be like -- I was originally told by a friend that I should try out the Enchanter class, and he played EQ1.  But I read over various classes in the handbook before deciding, and then I -played- my class as well.  I've had various alts for when I grew tired of the daily grind, or the difficulty I sometimes found in getting groups... or for when I wasn't doing anything sitting at 50.  I've discovered how much I enjoy tanking with my 26 guardian, or how much more challenging healing is than I thought it would be with my 21 Templar.  But nothing compares to my Illusionist -- how much fun I've had with the class, and how devoted I grew to my playstyle.  I think I like tanking so much because of the aggro management -- it -is- another form of crowd control. What I'm trying to say is that while the class may end up being fun to play... I wonder if I, myself, will enjoy it.  The strategy is going to be completely different.  People have made comments about how with the changes, we could hit a button and then just leave the computer for a length of time.  Re-breezing six or even twenty-four people is annoying, but I still feel like I'm doing something.  And while having the ability to breeze 24 people means I'm not exactly using much strategy... I'm still using some, in a way -- do I breeze the next person first, before it runs out, or do I slap on that power drain?  So on and so forth.  Not to mention re-breezing the people who might have died.  Do I keep up my four mezzes, or do I try to stick a breeze on the healer and risk that mob beating on the tank when he's at low health? I actually do agree with one suggestion -- if we're going to get a group breeze, give us a single-target one as well... we could slap it on someone (or some people, depending on how the spell is set up, could be done with short duration/long recast/whatever,) say, elsewhere in the raid (ie: not in our group) who might need an extra power boost.  I enjoy the strategy and choices of my class -- it's what makes it fun, for me. We might end up being useful in a way, too... but in a completely different way.  I guess I said it best the first time: the core of my class is being changed -- what makes my class fun to play, a challenge to play.  Overall, it seems to be getting simpler to play... group breeze, more button-pushing damage!  The idea of managing your concentration pool is a bit interesting, but I'm sure we'll find out the most useful buffs overall to have in almost all situations and leave it at that.  Not to mention, we'll post about that all over the boards so others will know too.  The idea of cancelling buffs to use invis, then finishing with it and re-casting buffs shortly thereafter... well, that seems just as likely to give me carpal tunnel as casting breeze on six (or 24) people over and over again. Once again, I don't expect the changes to be perfect.  I don't expect everyone to be happy, including myself.  I also didn't expect my class to be turned into something completely different -- if they stick with this, I might have to start a vote on getting the class' name changed, so that no one gets confused and thinks the new Illusionist is the same as the old Illusionist. Surianka/Pridarth/Xaninxs 50 Illusionist/26 Guardian/21 Templar Befallen Imperium <div></div>

[thrownho]

I don't think anyone has put it any better Surianka. I've grown so attached to my illusionist that seeing these changes is completely baffling for me. They had the basis for our class right, we just needed to be better...better stuns, roots, DPS, getting some bugged spells fixed...but overall, the actual basis for our class was fine. Instead, they are throwing it out the window and redoing us as something that none of us (with few exceptions) wanted to be. Those that are happy by this clearly picked this class because they wanted to do DPS...those who picked it for the real reasons, for crowd control, great buffs, amazing utility, are the ones being screwed over. I guess it's because utility is hard to balance, DPS is easy...it's mindless, just give us some form of damage spells and leave it at that. Apparently that's their quick fix to the hundreds of issues that our class had, instead of actually listening to what we have been saying since release. I'm afraid that this is no longer going to be the class that I fell in love with, and I might have to retire my account if these changes go live the way they are. Sure, it's nice to do a bit more DPS, but that's not at all what we needed, specially at the cost of everything we were good at. I have said it before, people didn't pick our class for pure DPS and no utility, if they wanted that they would have picked a sorceror. If they wanted a class with pets, such as our new doppleganger, they would have picked the summoner class. I want my utility back, it is what made me wanted, what made me different than the other 2 mage classes. I do not wish to be a weak summoner/sorceror hybrid, which is what we're being turned into. What do sorcerors have that's unique to them? Their nukes. Summoners? Their pets. Enchanters? ....after this revamp, nothing. Eloze 50 Illusionist of Oasis <div></div>

[DemonEQ]

<DIV> <P>Several posts on this issue have raised concerns in my mind as to the possible thoughts, or lack there of, that the Devs could have had regarding our class.</P> <P>With the combat changes to other classes, the current Illusionist (pre change) must really throw the game balance out of whack.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I mean 60% haste on 5 Melee Classes, 60 per tick power regen. for a 24 person raid, the ability to lock down 4+ mobs with Mezz to allow the others in a group to take them down one-by-one, a group invis. that allowed safe and rapid passage for an entire group through heavy aggro areas, and the ability to power-drain/stun/stifle opponents to a mindless glob, some minor DPS, and decent group buffs.<SPAN>  </SPAN>We must truly have been “THE ELITE” power class without the serious nerfing we are taking on test.</P> <P>As others have posted I picked my class to excel in the above areas, and I feel that the current Illusionist class while broken and unbalanced in regards to soloing ability, is the class I chose to play.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I did not roll up a Sorcerer to provide awesome DPS, I did not roll up a Summoner to have pets that can tank for me and allow safe soloing in most any zone.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I have often wondered why there as so few of us (10 level 50 on Grobb, 6<SPAN>  </SPAN>of which have logged in, in the last 30 days).<SPAN>  </SPAN>I for one cannot see myself enjoying any other class so well.</P> <P>My request to SOE Devs:</P> <P>Allow my character to be what you advertised it to be, “Illusionists use arcane power to confound and befuddle their enemies.<SPAN>  </SPAN>They also are able to boost the offensive and defensive capabilities of their allies.”<SPAN>  </SPAN>I believe that’s what my first paragraph describes.</P> <P>This statement from you website does not say the Illusionist will be able to summon beings to do casting / tanking, that’s a pet class.</P> <P>This statement does not say the Illusionist will deal devastation to their enemy, that’s a sorcerer class.</P> <P> </P> <P>I have read all the posts on the current changes on test and can honestly say that I did not play my character through 50 levels and endless raids to become something that I did not intend.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I will wait, like most others, to see what actually come out in the live update before making my final determination as to the state of the “Illusionist II”.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If it is the class that I intended to play I will continue, if not then ??.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Please give me what you sold me and what I developed over the last 9 months, not what you have given us from the available information there is on test.</P> <P> </P> <P>As a final note a big thank you to those that post reliable data on the changes taking place on test.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Your information has been superb and please keep it coming.</P> <P> </P> <P>Respectively,</P></DIV>

[schorsch76]

Hi, i'm really disappointed about the changes to the illusionists <span>:smileysad:</span> There are only a few on my server (Innovation). Only 216 from nearly 50000 characters. I'm going to create a new warlock or an other class, because my illu is nothing more than helpless and useless and is going to be deleted. SOE doesn't matter about such a small amount of characters and there will be one lesser in the future I think im not the only one, who thinks so .... Best regards schorsch76 <div></div>

[thrownho]

Apparently we're pumping out better DPS now, from what some illusionists on test/beta have posted on the illusionist forum. We seem to finally be able to solo, however, I don't think many of us picked this class for it's uber soloing capabilities. While we are definitely pumping out more DPS than on live servers, I don't know if our DPS + utility is enough to equal the DPS of a sorceror. In other words, if a group has to make a choice, I think they will almost always pick a sorceror, or a bard (since they have our same mana regen now), over us. DPS wise we're looking fine, I think we just need a boost in utility now to make us as wanted as the other 2 mage classes. Maybe better stuns, or taking the conc requirement off of haste would be a good first step. But I must say, the feedback is looking a lot better than it was a week ago. Eloze 50 Illusionist of Oasis <div></div>

[Tinnaley]

<P><STRONG><FONT color=#cc0000 size=6>WAKE UP SOE!!!</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><FONT size=3>Honestly, the question here is where to start....so I will just jump right in. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I appreciate the fact that you guys are trying some last ditch efforts to provide a better quality game for the players. However, you seem to have lost your direction and been bitten by the nerf bug! Chanters are a decidedly weak class to begin with. We have long complained that we are unable to solo, and that some of our class defining abilities needed to be upgraded. (ie.. the ability to group breeze) So you have accommodated our requests and for grins I can only assume decided to make our lives a little harder than they already were. I mean, </FONT><FONT color=#cc0000 size=5><STRONG>WHAT</STRONG></FONT> were you thinking when you decided to charge us a concentration for every singel thing we do. (practically) At this point I am shocked we are not being charged a concentration to log in!!! Okay, so you felt the need to nerf our mana regin (which is sometimes the SOLE reason we are invited to groups) to appropriately balance out the nerfs of other classes. I can handle that a little, but you are SERIOUSLY undercutting us. Oh, and reducing our haste to the point where we really can't even cast it on anyone else since we have some ridiculous concentration issues. Now we have a weak pet...am I supposed to be happy? Well, I thought that I was unhappy with my toon now, but I will take her ANY DAY OF THE WEEK compared to the things I am hearing now. You have nerfed us beyond what I thought was capable. What you have done here by decreasing our pretty nice buffs, our spells, our usefulness, OUR GROUP INVIS, (<---what the hell were you thinking?) is made a game that is no longer going to be "fun" for us. That is the goal here, isn't it? I play to have "fun" and if I am soooo nerfed that I can't do anything due to long recasts, and crap buffs, and sorry but I don't have any concentrations left to do that, well then it just won't be worth it to me. The group invis or just regular invis is so useful to our toons. We are basically made of paper and that is usually the only way that we are able to get things done since we already have a hard time getting groups. You have made it somewhat difficult for us by creating "see invis" mobs...leave well enough alone!!! I can't even go into the nerfing of our breeze and haste. Those a OUR PERSONAL CLASS DEFINING ABILITIES. Scouts have sneak, Conjurers have pets, Healers have heals, and tanks can well, tank. If you are going to take our best attributes then I better see some serious nerfing in all other departments. But if you do that, then will this game be worth it? Everyone in my guild and that I have spoken to on my server about combat changes are DREADING them. Many are talking of going to new MMORPG's...and sadly, some friends already have. I play EQ2 with my husband as a form of entertainment. At this point all he and I see are us looking for new forms of entertainment....</P> <P>On the upside I see that we have a basically useless pet. Yes, the pet can be used to tank that is IF we don't get aggro from it. If that happens, well, we all know how it goes when we solo. I carry a blanket and pillow with me in my bags already for my unique form of narcolepsy---->dirt naps. I would rather not have the pet if it means that everything we know as illusionists are going out the window. Basically you are going to totally change our toons, and little of it is for the better. :smileymad: I am seriously blown away.</P> <P> </P> <P> /cheer Seriously SoE. I applaud you. If your goal was to drive your already dwindling members to other games such as WoW, well, you are succeeding quicker than I bet you imagined! WOOT! Oh, and have fun living on unemployment! Because if you make these changes (not only to illusionists) but to most other classes, then you will see a severe decline in the number of accounts you guys have. New people may adjust to it because they know no different, but for all the people who have put tons of time, love and committment into their toons to date...well, you just gave us all a death sentence. Really, Really, poor job. I hope you guys pay attention to these boards and take them into consideration. Everything I am reading is not good. The "unhappy with combat changes" seem to out number the "happy with combat changes" by about 10-1 at this point.  I hope you guys know what you are doing, cuz from all over we are clueless as to what your thought process is.</P> <P> </P> <P>I keep hoping this was all a bad dream and I will wake up to my slightly nerfed, no better than anything else chanter! </P>

[Cont]

<P>I really don't know how these changes will work in practice.  In theory they make no sense at all it seems.  Someone mentioned that these changes could reflect changes to mobs and the like, so while the changes do seem drastic, they will not be so bad in the end as mobs will die easier or something like that....</P> <P>I have a feeling that is wishful thinking, but there is a chance.</P> <P>But the main fact remains that the devs are not changing things that we want changing ie actually addressing known issues to do with our class.  We want to have more of a use, have more spells unique to us that have a use, and those spells we do have that are useful made better (if anything) not worse.  </P> <P>dps is not why someone becomes an enchanter/illusionist...the reasons we did become one are being downgraded or basically removed.  Surely that is not a step in the right direction, whatever the result?</P> <P>Contro.</P>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Contro wrote:<BR> <P>I really don't know how these changes will work in practice.  In theory they make no sense at all it seems.  Someone mentioned that these changes could reflect changes to mobs and the like, so while the changes do seem drastic, they will not be so bad in the end as mobs will die easier or something like that....</P> <P>I have a feeling that is wishful thinking, but there is a chance.</P> <P>But the main fact remains that the devs are not changing things that we want changing ie actually addressing known issues to do with our class.  We want to have more of a use, have more spells unique to us that have a use, and those spells we do have that are useful made better (if anything) not worse.  </P> <P>dps is not why someone becomes an enchanter/illusionist...the reasons we did become one are being downgraded or basically removed.  Surely that is not a step in the right direction, whatever the result?</P> <P>Contro.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Warlocks = not happy so far with re-vamp.</P> <P>Wizards = do not know about resistances.</P> <P>Troubadors = worried about re-vamp.</P> <P>Ilusionists = not happy</P> <P>Anyone else care to add -- I have seen many quotes from SOE to the effect of "persons that post here are a small group that does not accurately reflect the opinions of the actual player base". This can confirm to us that there is a good chance they disregard anything we post here.</P> <P>I can not believe there are more sad times to come.</P> <P>It is funny when I see comments like " No matter what SOE does thee is no way to make everyone happy".</P> <P><BR> </P>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

Way to go SOE to make a full cc class (all utility) a semi dps class. Way to hit those who made this class cos of its cc abilities. My illusionist is only 39, of course they don't do much damage but I soloed fine and their main reason for existance is there to help make things a lot easier for the rest of the group/raid. You ruined the logic of the full utility class. I feel for the high level illusionists.

[KornRollKid]

<P>Lets wait for the changes first. </P> <P>Damage increase was definately needed and A group breeze line also.</P> <P>As far mez etc lets wait and see who knows what changes will be made im sure atleast half the classes will have some form of changes to current beta stuff.</P>

[Drachan]

<P>I can't comment on the changes directly, since I'm neither a chanter (well, I am, but only lvl11 so that doesn't count) nor on test, but I really like to know why some people think enchanters are DPS simply because they're coming from mage archetype.</P> <P>I understand it (and I asume many others too), that the archetype is the base from where the classes specialize.<BR>From what I recognized it's one offensive, one defensive and one somewhere in the middle.<BR><BR>Also, if you check the lvl10 class quest, the enchanter part is completely non-violent. You have to talk to people and not nuke people.</P> <P>No clue if the class is still playable or not.. I leave this up to you.</P> <DIV>Edit: Typo</DIV><p>Message Edited by Drachan on <span class=date_text>08-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:36 AM</span>

[mastalynx]

You guys have it fine. I have a 50 alt illusionist and am waiting to play him.