Is there enough lvl 50s of all classes on test server to thoroughly test high lvl content???

[Deeds]

<DIV>Simple question, is there enough lvl 50s of all classes on the test server to  thoroughly  test high lvl content and skills???  Because to me, at least as it is now, it seems like there is not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the answer is no, then there is a huge problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that they do not want to let people copy characters to test because it might ruin the test server community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, I think thats big mistake, especially with the current HUGE update situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The whole purpose of the test server is to TEST changes and tweaks.  That can not be done without sufficient input from testers of ALL levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THE PRIORITY SHOULD ALWAYS GO TO THE LIVE SERVERS, and if that means letting people copy characters to test, then so be it.  At least SOE would get the proper population to really TEST changes before the go to the live servers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[LizzyB]

<P>I dont think there is a big enough range in levels on test to vigerously test the new system.  I created a new character in order to check out the new changes and did a /who all and it came back with 48 players.  This was about 18:00 GMT.  There will no doubt be more people now as people will be creating new characters to check out the update but I doubt these will get to lvl 50 before the patch goes live.</P> <P>I know they don't want to upset the people playing on test, but at the end of the day its a test server not a live server.  What I feel Sony should do is copy over several characters from each class.  EG copy several characters lvl 20 - 29 then lvl 30 - 39 and last bust not least 40 - 50.  They would have to make sure that every class was included.  This way you would have a range of players to test the new system. </P> <P> I haven't included the lvl 3 - 19 characters cos these could be taken care of by the people that are creating new characters.</P> <P>Sony could select by people applying to have their character copied by applying the same way they did with the DoF beta. </P> <P>I know people on the test server probably won't like this but like I said its the test server not a live server and this new CU needs proper testing.</P> <P>Thats just my 2c.</P>

[WuphonsReach]

The level 45+ combat is mostly being tested on the DoF beta server by all of the level 50 players who were accepted into the DoF beta and were copied to the beta server. There are more then enough level 50s there to test the combat changes at level 50. (If not, I'm sure the Devs will open up a second wave of Beta invites to boost the population.)There are also a lot more level 50s on Test then you would expect. But 1800 GMT, on a Friday, when folks in the US are still at work, is not going to show you a high population on Test. (Peak time is around 9pm EST, which IIRC, is around 0200 GMT.)

[Deeds]

<P>LOL, testers 1 star me all you want, the question still stands.</P> <P> </P> <P>IS THERE ENOUGH LVL 50S OF ALL CLASSES ON THE TEST SERVER TO THOROUGHLY TEST SKILLS, RAIDS, QUESTS, CONTENT  (FOR ALL LVLS) FOR THIS HUGE UPDATE THAT MIGHT MAKE OR BREAK THIS WHOLE GAME???</P> <P>Judging by the silence from the testers, I think we all know the answer.</P> <P>Message Edited by Deedbit on <SPAN class=date_text>08-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:15 AM</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Oh and Snakebbik, if that is the case them I will be looking forward to the TONS (not just the occasional 1 or 2 at the most) of evaluation posts regarding the current updates from all the lvl 50 testers, from each class.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Deedbit on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:20 AM</span>

[RiotActer]

I have a toon on test, but I haven't played it for a really long time.  And I don't plan on it...  I know, I know then I shouldn't be posting in here.  First and foremost it is a test server.  It's only purpose is to provide a player test area for new content.  There is / shouldn't be "ruin the test player ecomony" etc.  There are disclaimers, etc for the people that make their home on test.  I do like people that play their mains on the test server.  It's a great service to the over-all game.  It's kind of cool because you can get to know the Devs on a player to player type of level.  The community is better, and most people know each other in some fashion.  But...  It's a server that should be used for testing new content, no matter what.  This is a very large update.  I'd venture to say it's the largest update since launch.  As stated, Every Single spell has been touched.  NPCs have been totally changed.  The /con system has totally changed.  End game content has been changed.  Player dynamics have totally changed (eg: grouping) I don't know how many 45+ players there are on Test...  But I'm guessing there aren't nearly enough to test something like this.  If there are 10 level 50 Pally's on test, it doesn't even come close to the number needed to fully test "every single ability" we get.  High level content is all about the grouping...  Are there enough people to test all the abilities, which stack, which don't?  Or is this another thing that has to wait to hit the Live servers and 99% of the EQ2 population to "test"?  Followed my 1 month of hotfixes for xyz abilities...  Epic mob abc has be patch not to do 20,000K damage using Static pulse when the Warden's ABC buff is active....  If you give live server players the chance to experience these changes on the Test server, I'm guessing maybe 1/4 of the population might  take you up on that.  Most wouldn't bother with setting up the test server on their machine, most would want to level grind.  But...  You would be adding so many more "testers" to make sure this system goes out as smooth as possible.  Sure you'll never be able to please everyone...  There will always be gripes, but I'm talking about plain and simple game play. If the mechanics of the Test server do not allow the copying of Live Server characters, just come out and say that.  It will put a stop to all these posts.  If this can happen, explain the reasons why you choose not to.  I think most of us just want some sort of answer as to why we can't copy characters to Test....  <div></div>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deedbit wrote:<BR> <DIV>Simple question, is there enough lvl 50s of all classes on the test server to  thoroughly  test high lvl content and skills???  Because to me, at least as it is now, it seems like there is not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the answer is no, then there is a huge problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that they do not want to let people copy characters to test because it might ruin the test server community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, I think thats big mistake, especially with the current HUGE update situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The whole purpose of the test server is to TEST changes and tweaks.  That can not be done without sufficient input from testers of ALL levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THE PRIORITY SHOULD ALWAYS GO TO THE LIVE SERVERS, and if that means letting people copy characters to test, then so be it.  At least SOE would get the proper population to really TEST changes before the go to the live servers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are totally right.  The test server is there to TEST content to go to the LIVE servers.  It is not simply a seperate server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sorry for people who enjoy the test server, but they should expect a different environment than the live servers and if that means allowing copying to the test server to allow the proper widespread testing of these changes from all types of players, then what goo dis the test server really  accomplishing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it funny that even people on the test server have complained numerous times that obvious bugs they have pointed out still make it to the live.  So what is the real point of test, if not to test?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes I am sure some rabid testers will 1 star this but feel free.</DIV>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deedbit wrote:<BR> <P>LOL, testers 1 star me all you want, the question still stands.</P> <P> </P> <P>IS THERE ENOUGH LVL 50S OF ALL CLASSES ON THE TEST SERVER TO THOROUGHLY TEST SKILLS, RAIDS, QUESTS, CONTENT  (FOR ALL LVLS) FOR THIS HUGE UPDATE THAT MIGHT MAKE OR BREAK THIS WHOLE GAME???</P> <P>Judging by the silence from the testers, I think we all know the answer.</P> <P>Message Edited by Deedbit on <SPAN class=date_text>08-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:15 AM</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Oh and Snakebbik, if that is the case them I will be looking forward to the TONS (not just the occasional 1 or 2 at the most) of evaluation posts regarding the current updates from all the lvl 50 testers, from each class.</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Deedbit on <SPAN class=date_text>08-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:20 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In answer to your question, no. This will be the buggiest update yet. This is not a bash on the testers it is simply a function of mathematics. </P> <UL> <LI>This update will introdduce the largest number of absolute/situational bugs of any update. </LI> <LI>There are a finite number of testers with a finite number of hours to play. </LI> <LI>Only a proportion of all bugs get caught.</LI> <LI>Test population numbers in the past have been insufficient to catch all the errors. </LI> <LI>Test population numbers do not scale to the number of bugs that will be introduced with this update.  </LI> <LI>Essentially same test population + more bugs = Lower proportion of total bugs caught</LI> <LI>Therefore more bugs will slip through....especially the situational ones. </LI></UL> <P>There is a simple and easy answer to mitigate some of this, and that is to do a general copy of players over to test. Higher population = more bugs get caught. Will they do it? Nope. Will we suffer to some degree because of it? Yep. How much? Who knows. Hertiage quest(stein) sellback anyone?</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Kenazeer on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:56 AM</span>

[TheMightyTaco]

I just deleted my Test server characters today. I don't think SOE sees the word test the same way we do. We tend to think test means check to see if changes are really a good idea and see if anything needs to be changed to avoid breaking the mechanics of the game. I think SOE sees the word test to mean install the changes we KNOW we are going to make anyway whether they work or not and see if they cause a zone or server to crash. So really, there is no point in me wasting my time "testing". We get the player's version of testing on the live servers... and a fair amount of SOE's version too. <div></div>

[Svan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deedbit wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THE PRIORITY SHOULD ALWAYS GO TO THE LIVE SERVERS, and if that means letting people copy characters to test, then so be it.  At least SOE would get the proper population to really TEST changes before the go to the live servers.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>you all make it sound like we on test are selfish and are the ones to blame</P> <P>where were you, and all the others with the same thoughts, a few months ago when yall could've easily transfered to test and been part of the solution instead of whining about the problem now? just because yall didnt want to step up and help doesnt mean you now can ruin it for us that did by trying to usher in mass character copies.</P> <DIV>yes, i realize that you might've been in good guilds, had lots of friends, or whatever on your server at the time the transfers were available, but so did we. just because not enough people made the decision that was better for everyone doesnt mean that those of us who did deserve the bashing and ridicule from all of you.</DIV> <DIV> <P>also, things we find on test might get to the devs better if we had our own place to post bugs and problems all the time where they dont get drowned out by masses of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] whines from those who, not only just dont play on the server, but shrank back when the time came that they could've done something about it.</P></DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

Please don't forget that the Combat Changes are also on the Beta server, which is testing primarily 45+ content.  There are PLENTY of level 50 players there, testing away. <div></div>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EtoilePB wrote:<BR>Please don't forget that the Combat Changes are also on the Beta server, which is testing primarily 45+ content.  There are PLENTY of level 50 players there, testing away.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are correct, BUT, they are there primarily to beta test DoF.</DIV>

[Kenazeer]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deedbit wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THE PRIORITY SHOULD ALWAYS GO TO THE LIVE SERVERS, and if that means letting people copy characters to test, then so be it.  At least SOE would get the proper population to really TEST changes before the go to the live servers.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>you all make it sound like we on test are selfish and are the ones to blame</P> <P>where were you, and all the others with the same thoughts, a few months ago when yall could've easily transfered to test and been part of the solution instead of whining about the problem now? just because yall didnt want to step up and help doesnt mean you now can ruin it for us that did by trying to usher in mass character copies.</P> <DIV>yes, i realize that you might've been in good guilds, had lots of friends, or whatever on your server at the time the transfers were available, but so did we. just because not enough people made the decision that was better for everyone doesnt mean that those of us who did deserve the bashing and ridicule from all of you.</DIV> <DIV> <P>also, things we find on test might get to the devs better if we had our own place to post bugs and problems all the time where they dont get drowned out by masses of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] whines from those who, not only just dont play on the server, but shrank back when the time came that they could've done something about it.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I for one am NOT bashing the people on test. I applaud what you do for us and the rest of the players. However, it is a TEST server who's primary function is to TEST content. Regardless of what may or may not have happened in the past, changes need to be made if it is not currently capable of fulfilling its function. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You act as if Test is just the same as any other server when it is not. People purchase this game and pay 15 bucks a month to have fun. For some people that includes being on the test server and fufilling the commensurate obligations; for many others it does not. The elitist attitude that others "shrank back" when they could of "done something about it" fails to recognize this fact. We shouldn't have to sacrifice our fun in order for us to have a bug free game. If the current dynamic is not working to get the proper number of testers then SoE needs to change it.</DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kenazeer wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> EtoilePB wrote:Please don't forget that the Combat Changes are also on the Beta server, which is testing primarily 45+ content.  There are PLENTY of level 50 players there, testing away. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>You are correct, BUT, they are there primarily to beta test DoF.</div><hr></blockquote> That doesn't mean that every single one of them isn't full of commentary about every spell and skill they've got.  Changes were made between the first few CC patches on Beta and the first round on Test -- level 50s have assuredly had their say. As for the rest of it, honestly, the biggest problems and issues and things that need fixing aren't at level 50, they're spread out between 20 and 40, and more mid-level testers are needed.  If everyone who's been begging for a copy for the last four months had just started a once-a-week Test toon way back when, we'd have all the mid-range Test population we need and then some. (And for what it's worth, not only is there a great gobbing slew of level 45+ players in the DoF Beta, but every single 50 who'd ever been copied to Test to test a raid was boom! suddenly on last night.  High-end testing is well-covered.)</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kenazeer wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are correct, BUT, they are there primarily to beta test DoF. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Which can't be done without testing the spell and combat changes.<BR></DIV>

[Kenazeer]

<DIV>Time will tell.</DIV>

[Svan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kenazeer wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You act as if Test is just the same as any other server when it is not. People purchase this game and pay 15 bucks a month to have fun. For some people that includes being on the test server and fufilling the commensurate obligations; for many others it does not. The elitist attitude that others "shrank back" when they could of "done something about it" fails to recognize this fact. We shouldn't have to sacrifice our fun in order for us to have a bug free game. If the current dynamic is not working to get the proper number of testers then SoE needs to change it.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>i understand that if test just isnt for someone, then that's fine, but they have no right to complain about not enough people going to test. if these people complaining cared so much as they claim to about what's coming to live servers, they should've transfered. if people really want a funner game, they should help. all this saying "we demand more people on test but we dont wanna go!" crap is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].

[Deeds]

<P>Sorry Svanny, you are mislead.</P> <P>The majority of the players do not pay a monthly fee and the initial cost of the game just to play on the TEST server. Not to mention the time involved to play on both live and test server.</P> <P>We, as a consumer expect a thoroughly tested (at least as much as possible) product on the live server because after all that is what we were promised and that is what we are paying for.  </P> <P>Ya I have a couple lvl 50 toons on the live servers, and if SOE wants me to raise ANOTHER character to 50 on the test server, then they should start paying me for the time it will take.  Sorry, my time is valuable to me and Im not going to waste it on something that can be solved in a way more efficient manner.</P> <P>Again, it in NOT my job to test the game for SOE, that is their job that I am paying them for.</P>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kenazeer wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You act as if Test is just the same as any other server when it is not. People purchase this game and pay 15 bucks a month to have fun. For some people that includes being on the test server and fufilling the commensurate obligations; for many others it does not. The elitist attitude that others "shrank back" when they could of "done something about it" fails to recognize this fact. We shouldn't have to sacrifice our fun in order for us to have a bug free game. If the current dynamic is not working to get the proper number of testers then SoE needs to change it.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>i understand that if test just isnt for someone, then that's fine, but they have no right to complain about not enough people going to test. if these people complaining cared so much as they claim to about what's coming to live servers, they should've transfered. if people really want a funner game, they should help. all this saying "we demand more people on test but we dont wanna go!" crap is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You completely don't get it do you? We <STRONG>pay</STRONG> to play a game SONY provides. If they can work out a symbiotic relationship with some of the playerbase in order for the game to be tested both parties win. When the symbiotic realtionship falls short they need to do something else. Period.</P> <P>What you are saying is rubbish. Let's assume that all the people who wanted to take adavantage of the transfer did. What does that mean? It means everyone that WANTS to be there IS there. Are you suggesting that someone pay Sony 15 bucks a month to do something they don't want to do? And if they don't want to do that, they are somehow at fault for bugs in the product? Are you suggesting that everyone simultaneously level a character on test and a character on a live server? Do you see how silly this sounds?</P> <P>I have a lowly character on test. I created it so that sometimes I can go over and try out new things and try to make the game better. It is a fun distraction when I don't feel like doing something else. Full time testing is not my thing, half time testing is not my thing, and NEITHER should be a requirement of ANYONE who wants to enjoy the game. It is Sony's reponsibility to provide a test environment for their product, not us. Got it?</P>

[wr4ithd0]

<DIV>To the person above me talking about not enough people caring to be on test:....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are correct.  I don't want to be on test, but I'm not going to complain about it.  I'll just wait for it to go Live and see how it is.  If it's messed up there I will /feedback and /bug as always.  It's an ever-evolving game and just because it makes it past the test server doesn't mean that it will forever be in stone.  Not sure how my tone is here, but let me state that I'm not dogging you one bit.  Kudos to you for playing on test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, to the other naysayers proclaiming the sky is falling:  It would appear that there are plenty of lvl 50s testing out new content whether it be DoF or the new combat system.  Do you honestly think someone in the beta is going to not report on the new combat system just because they are in beta?  That's just a rediculous statement and any tester that wouldn't report bugs and whatnot should be outright removed from test or beta.  That being said, I know there are testers who never report a thing.  and with THAT being said, they don't have to report one single thing on the forums when there is already a viable form of ingame feedback availableq.  THe forums are really just a blasting board with 95% being negative comments rather that one thing constructive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last but not least...bug free game...and MMORPG can not exist in the same sentence.  Get over it.</DIV>

[Svan]

<DIV>all im suggesting is that if you want something done, do it. i didnt think that was such a hard concept to grasp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>people dont want to play on test, and that's fine. but when those same people complain that the test server isnt good enough, it's [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</DIV>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR> <DIV>all im suggesting is that if you want something done, do it. i didnt think that was such a hard concept to grasp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>people dont want to play on test, and that's fine.<FONT color=#ff0000> <STRONG>but when those same people complain that the test server isnt good enough, it's [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</STRONG></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My goodness you still don't get it? It is NOT the playerbase's responsibility to ensure the test server has a viable population, it is Sony's. <BR>

[KBern]

<P>What I am saying and many others is that if they want us to test, to make it easier for the largest group possible to test.</P> <P>Many of us enjoy playing on our main servers.  There is not enough play time to do what I want on my main and alts in the guild I am dedicated to.</P> <P>I would love to have time to test fully, but I dont have the time to create and advance a character on test the way it would need to be done to get a full picture.</P> <P>If they allowed copying, they would have many more people willing to test these changes.</P> <P>That being said, I dont pay them money to use me as a tester.  I would test, if they made it more convenient.</P> <P>I dont think this thread was to bash testers, or even bash the test server.  I personally think the no copy rule is misguided and is not maximizing the effectiveness that the test server can achieve.</P> <P>It started with an honest question and a concern as to why the question was asked.  It is a pretty valid question.</P> <P>Kudos to testers, but never say a paying customer has no right to complain simply because they don't test the companies content for them.  They pay people for that and use us as volunteers.  Some of you are great to do that, and have the time, not everyone else does.</P>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> wr4ithd00d wrote:<BR> <DIV>To the person above me talking about not enough people caring to be on test:....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are correct.  I don't want to be on test, but I'm not going to complain about it.  I'll just wait for it to go Live and see how it is.  If it's messed up there I will /feedback and /bug as always.  It's an ever-evolving game and just because it makes it past the test server doesn't mean that it will forever be in stone.  Not sure how my tone is here, but let me state that I'm not dogging you one bit.  Kudos to you for playing on test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, to the other naysayers proclaiming the sky is falling:  It would appear that there are plenty of lvl 50s testing out new content whether it be DoF or the new combat system.  Do you honestly think someone in the beta is going to not report on the new combat system just because they are in beta?  That's just a rediculous statement and any tester that wouldn't report bugs and whatnot should be outright removed from test or beta.  That being said, I know there are testers who never report a thing.  and with THAT being said, they don't have to report one single thing on the forums when there is already a viable form of ingame feedback availableq.  THe forums are really just a blasting board with 95% being negative comments rather that one thing constructive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66cc00>Last but not least...bug free game...and MMORPG can not exist in the same sentence</FONT>.  Get over it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Absolutely correct. There will never be a bug free game/release/update. However, I think it is encumbent of Sony to take reasonable steps to mitigate against those bugs as much as possible. I think, but very well could be wrong, that the population of the test server is insufficient to fully and adequately test all the facets of the game which are being changed. I think this could be mitigated by a general copy of characters or the ability to "spawn" temporary characters on the test server. </P> <P>It wont be the end of the world, I hope at least, but it just seems a shame when it appears Sony is not doing all they can to fully vet their product.</P> <P>Once again if you read my first two post I specifically DID NOT lay this at the feet of the testers. </P> <P>"This is not a bash on the testers it is simply a function of mathematics."</P> <P>And</P> <P>"I for one am NOT bashing the people on test. I applaud what you do for us and the rest of the players."</P> <P>I simply called for changes to the dynamic which accounts for the population numbers on test. Some testers evidently took this personally which led to a  "well if you want a better game you gotta come to test" spin on the thread. I took, and continue to take, umbrage to that line of thought, but it is off topic.</P> <P>I simply say...</P> <UL> <LI>This is the BIGGEST update to game yet which will contain the largest amount of bugs</LI> <LI>The population of the test server has not grown in scale with the amount of changes needing testing (this doesn't even factor in that the fighter/priest changes are incomplete).</LI> <LI>A simple solution would be to increase the number of testers</LI></UL> <P>I think where we could disagree is that the population is large enough to test all the changes. I know DoF beta has been going on, but how many people was that? What were they testing primarily? Were the old zones open to them? etc...</P> <P>I also have questions about the current "everyday" test population. Sure there are people who were copied over from live, but ask yourself, who was that? It wasn't Jo Blow Paladin from Guk. How well will these characters be able to test the everyday combat dynamic at 50? </P> <P>Right now I have more questions than answers, and I am reluctant to just have faith that the process is going to proceed without a hitch. I hope it does, but I would like to see SoE taking more active steps to see that it does.</P> <p>Message Edited by Kenazeer on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:50 PM</span>

[Svan]

<DIV>they cant force people to test their stuff. they cant hire 500 people to provide a consistent test population. so yes, it is partly our responsibility if we want a better game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Svanny on <SPAN class=date_text>08-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:54 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Svanny on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 PM</span>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR> <DIV>they cant force people to test their stuff. they cant hire 500 people to provide a consistent test population. so yes, it is partly our responsibility if we want a better game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just out of curiosity Kena, how do you suggest Sony build a large test population?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Svanny on <SPAN class=date_text>08-05-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:54 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't necessarily think the test server population needs a permanent boost. You guys/gals do very well as it is. In this specific circumstance, however, I would say let the first X number of each class, within a certain range, copy their current characters over to test for 6 weeks. At the end of that time those characters are wiped. So say the first 20 SKs level 20-30 get in, the first 20 Monks 20-30, etc.. This is just an example, Sony would need to look at the current population mix and see if they needed more of one class or another.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited for addtional thoughts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kenazeer on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:06 PM</span>

[Svan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Kenazeer wrote: <P> </P> <DIV>I don't necessarily think the test server population needs a permanent boost. You guys/gals do very well as it is. In this specific circumstance, however, I would say let the first X number of each class copy their current characters over to test for 6 weeks. At the end of that time those characters are wiped.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>the problem with that is, who's gonna want to put 6 weeks of time into a character only to have them wiped? there's no incentive, no lasting reward for doing it. people would copy over, play for a day or 2 to see the changes, and then go back to their normal servers. just like what's happening now, the test server is flooded with characters 1-10 just so they can get a glimpse of what the changes are, but each day hereafter they'll dwindle back to their normal servers again. character copies for anything more than taking a few people for a few hours to test high end raid content would not make a better test server. using the test server as a regular server with regular players creates a consistant population for Sony to test in. there are already serveral bonuses for playing on the test server, more people just need to take advantage of them<BR>

[Gaige]

<P>In my opinion the test server is a somewhat controllable environment that mimics live, that SOE uses to test content in a live scenario pre live to catch major game breaking and server downtime bugs.</P> <P>Every thing else that is found is icing on the cake, because SOE can/does hotfix most of that stuff.</P> <P>In regards to wide scale changes like these, I think that's why SOE waited until the beta, so they'd have a lot of high end testers testing beta and sc/cc and a mix of players, a lot more in the lower levels, testing the sc/cc when it hit test.</P> <P>Just my opinion, of course.</P>

[Asla]

<P>The answer to you question is No.  Never has been, never will be.</P> <P>Instead of providing a true test environment, Sony's using a micro-server concept.  Very few people, no need to dedicate full resources to the server.   Personally, I don't agree with it, but this lack of true testing has always been Sony's way since EQ1, and despite the slip-shod quality product that ends up on Live,  they're obviously not planning on making a true Test server any time soon.</P> <P> </P>

[Sunfire]

<DIV>A couple months ago when you could still query test for classes, there were only 3 lvl 50 Wardens.... I've also noticed 0 posts about the spell changes to Wardens here or on the test boards ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So no, there probably arent enough of every class to test the changes on Test.</DIV>

[Omido]

I wanted to chime in and give my 2 cents worth on all this as well. I applaud those poeple who decided to devote their time to playing on the test server so we can have a better and less buggy game on live. One thing I think that SOE would do well to consider is the concept that SWG uses, and that is to take a Live Server and back it up, then they place their updated code on it and let everyone on that server test it (seriously, that game is handled by SOE also, why not use a concept that they already use??). This in no way affects their regular test server so that it can try to function as a normal server with its economy intact. With as broad sweeping changes as the CU will bring, they should really do something more to make sure it is tested in all facets before placing it on live. <div></div>

[Styk]

I am a high lvl Berserker and my self and most the people who talk on the zerker forums would like to know how the CC is affecting our class , now if i can log on ( been doing this for 4 days now mind you ) at 2 hour intervals 6 times a day and can find barely even 2-3 berserkers on TEST ( lvls 20-50 ) at any given time then I AM WORRIED that the CC for my particular class wont be fully tested... Gaige etc can argue all they want that the CC is being tested on the expansion beta but mind you that isnt the MAIN focus of beta, BUT the CC atm is the main focus on test .... SoE you can do 1 of 2 things to solve this problem on test ( population testing CC etc ) a.) allow players to /copy ONE character to test that will be deleted the week of Sept 12, MOST of us want to test the combat changes and that is a more then legitimate reason to /copy on, so you can keep the permanant TEST community intact, delete the/copy players that came to test when CC goes live.. b.) and even more xp bonus on test like to a 300% degree  ( make it as an option just to test the CC ) so it doesnt take forever to lvl another character on TEST , you can also delete the character when the CC goes live so it keeps the TEST community intact after... SoE these CC are MAKE OR BREAK FOR YOUR GAME AND EXPANSION, you have MANY PLAYERS ON LIVE who want to test it out to the fullest... GIVE US A SHOT TO HELP OUT AS WELL BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW SEPT 12 IS GONNA BE A REALLY HARD DAY AND WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE TRANSITION TO THE "IMPROVED EQ2 " ALOT SMOOTHER <div></div>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Kenazeer wrote: <P> </P> <DIV>I don't necessarily think the test server population needs a permanent boost. You guys/gals do very well as it is. In this specific circumstance, however, I would say let the first X number of each class copy their current characters over to test for 6 weeks. At the end of that time those characters are wiped.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>the problem with that is, who's gonna want to put 6 weeks of time into a character only to have them wiped? <FONT color=#ff0000>there's no incentive,</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000>no lasting reward</FONT> for doing it. people would copy over, play for a day or 2 to see the changes, and then go back to their normal servers. just like what's happening now, the test server is flooded with characters 1-10 just so they can get a glimpse of what the changes are, but each day hereafter they'll dwindle back to their normal servers again. <FONT color=#ff0000>character copies for anything more than taking a few people for a few hours to test high end raid content would not make a better test server.</FONT> using the test server as a regular server with regular players creates a consistant population for Sony to test in. there are already serveral bonuses for playing on the test server, more people just need to take advantage of them<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2> <P>Would have to disagree with the items highlighted in red.</P> <P>There is lots of incentive, to make the live servers better! I would love to play my copied toons on test and provide feedback as well as comparisons to the current system, the good and bad. If they delete my test toons after the update that is fine. However, I’m not going to transfer them over or create the 6 classes I play on live and start over on test. If SoE expects customers to test their game by transferring their toons from live or leveling from the beginning then they are misguided in their goals. Look at the state of the game at launch, many classes were unplayable or extremely difficult to play for several months. This is after the supposed thorough and lengthy pre launch beta test and many live updates. There is not enough people testing or providing feedback. When LU #13 is published the game will have been out for 11 months. As a customer I expect VERY FEW problems with the combat revamp; I repeat, VERY FEW, with minimal in game live server issues. They need to allow copies of toons from live, permanent or temporary I don’t care. Test server is there to support the live servers, simple as that! The more people that are allowed to test with minimal inconvenience (copying or testbuff) will make EQ2 a better game. The current policies in place prevent sufficient end user testing and feedback. Most customers experience with the combat revamp will be after September 12th, this is to late. Customers should have the option to use test with minimal restrictions (copied toons or testbuff), this does not exist right now.</P></FONT> <DIV> </DIV>

[rezmond]

If they had 1000 people wantin to copy chars accross all at the same time it would be alot of hasslte for SOE, especially if everyone is petitioning missing items and things. They should just make test a bit like EQ1 test server. You could create a new character and then there was a command that you could type ( i forget what it was). The command would level your character to level 25 or so and equiped you with some 1/2 decent gear. It saved having to go trhough all the hours of newbie [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] before u can start playing content to test the changes. It would be good if they did the same on eq2 Test. <div></div>

[Svan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> MOST of us want to test the combat changes and that is a more then legitimate reason to /copy on, so you can keep the permanant TEST community intact, delete the/copy players that came to test when CC goes live..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>shoulda played on test if you're so eager to test new content. that's one of the bonuses for playing on test, seeing new content sooner. sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too...</DIV>

[Svan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nibblar wrote:<FONT size=2> <P>There is lots of incentive, to make the live servers better! I would love to play my copied toons on test and provide feedback as well as comparisons to the current system, the good and bad. If they delete my test toons after the update that is fine. However, I’m not going to transfer them over or create the 6 classes I play on live and start over on test. If SoE expects customers to test their game by transferring their toons from live or leveling from the beginning then they are misguided in their goals. Look at the state of the game at launch, many classes were unplayable or extremely difficult to play for several months. This is after the supposed thorough and lengthy pre launch beta test and many live updates. There is not enough people testing or providing feedback. When LU #13 is published the game will have been out for 11 months. As a customer I expect VERY FEW problems with the combat revamp; I repeat, VERY FEW, with minimal in game live server issues. They need to allow copies of toons from live, permanent or temporary I don’t care. Test server is there to support the live servers, simple as that! The more people that are allowed to test with minimal inconvenience (copying or testbuff) will make EQ2 a better game. The current policies in place prevent sufficient end user testing and feedback. Most customers experience with the combat revamp will be after September 12th, this is to late. Customers should have the option to use test with minimal restrictions (copied toons or testbuff), this does not exist right now.<BR></P></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>test server with short term population spikes only when big updates come = bad</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>test server with long term population to test everything all the time = good</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>copying characters does not promote a long term population</DIV>

[HanktheDwarf]

<div></div>So all you level 50 guys begging for a copy over... Would you take your guy, mentor him down to every level, and test every spell you have over and over?  No, you wouldn't.  You know why?  Because with a bunch of copies on test, there would be no lower level characters to mentor to and test.  Or are you telling me you would also copy over lower level alts so other people could mentor your and use you to bang away some testing while you sit there and look pretty?  If you are that dedicated then, you should have come over to the dark side when they offered moves.  Not saying I would mentor to every level, but with normal players in the lower level ranges I can mentor a few of them and test it out. Are there enough level 50s on test?  Between all the guilds copied to test and all the 50s copied to beta, there are enough.  Whether or not they will actually provide useful feedback is another point. <div></div><p>Message Edited by HanktheDwarf on <span class=date_text>08-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:41 AM</span>

[Troodon]

Perhaps its time to take a look at how testing is conducted? That for such a dramatic change as the Combat Changes, testing is opened up to all. The problem with the current state of affairs is that Test isn’t really a testing environment; it’s a server that just gets changes before the rest of the servers. It has a community that the Devs understandably don’t want to disrupt with a large scale and probably temporary influx of players. I propose a Sandbox server specifically for testing the current Combat Changes, but also potentially for use when future significant changes are to be made. Sandbox would be accessible until the day the changes went live. Sandbox is identical to Test bar the implementation of the following commands: /<b>setToon</b> <i>[race] [</i><i>class] [level]</i> e.g. /setToon dwarf berserker 31 Sets the toon to the specified race, class and level. Toons are given a random appearance. In the example a level 31 dwarf berserker would be created. /<b>setSpellQuality</b> <i>(app1, app2, app3, app4, adpt1, adpt3, mas1)</i> e.g. /setSpellQuality adt1 Sets the quality of a toons entire CAs/spells to the level specified. In the example a toon would be outfitted with adept1 CAs/spells. <b>/specifySpell </b><i>[spell/CA name] [quality]</i> e.g. /specifySpell Pious Aid adpt3 Sets the quality of the specified spell to a particular level. In the examine the toon would be equipped with an adept 3 Poius Aid. /<b>equipToon</b> <i>(treasured, common, rare, fabled, random)</i> e.g. /equipToon random Equips a toon with a set of equipment of the quality specified. Equipment is drawn randomly from a table appropriate for that tier-class, proviso that any red con items are redrawn to prevent a toon ending up with treasured/fabled equipment they cant actually use. In the example a toon would be outfitted in a set of gear draw from all the tables appropriate for their class-tier e.g. they would have some treasured, some common player crafted, some rare crafted and some fabled items). /<b>cornucopia</b> e.g. /cornucopia Summons a random stack of level appropriate food and drink. All this would require a diversion of resources to do, though such might be worth it in the long term. Its worth pointing out that such commands probably wouldn’t have to be coded from scratch A versions that probably already exist for GMs on the live servers and for SoEs own internal use could just be encapsulated for tester use. Such a set up would allow for much more thorough evaluation than what Test is capable of, even its only while people briefly assure themselves that the sky isn’t falling. However I think you’ll find that there will be more than a few dedicated potential Testers willing to lend a hand to test properly. <div></div>

[Styk]

Guess what Svanny i do play on test, besides the fact of the lack of proper equipment on the broker, LACK OF PEOPLE TO GROUP WITH ETC and the fact that my main is on another server , it looks like to me you have an elitist mindset about being on test... How about this, if the CC changes for my class ( Berserker ) goes really bad because there was a lack of testers on test for my class can i blame the TEST server ? of course your gonna say no but thats my only option since it wasnt tested well enough.... instead of being so snobish about the fact that my main isnt on test why cant you see that i want to make sure that the berserker class gets a fair amount of people who actively test berserker CA"s/spells, ( trust me im one of the most active people on the zerker boards and i wil give ALL my observations on our section of the boards of what i can test ) <div></div>

[Svan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> How about this, if the CC changes for my class ( Berserker ) goes really bad because there was a lack of testers on test for my class can i blame the TEST server ? of course your gonna say no but thats my only option since it wasnt tested well enough....<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>how about this, instead of complaining about not enough people playing on test, encourage more people to play there and/or try to encourage SoE to open up transfers to test again; because you're wasting your time trying to justify character copies</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>instead of being so pessimistic and automatically assuming the worst from these changes, show a little patience. not everyone at SoE are [Removed for Content], as you seem to think.</DIV>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>how about this, instead of complaining about not enough people playing on test, encourage more people to play there<FONT color=#ff0000> and/or try to encourage SoE to open up transfers to test again</FONT>; because you're wasting your time trying to justify character copies</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>instead of being so pessimistic and automatically assuming the worst from these changes, show a little patience. not everyone at SoE are [Removed for Content], as you seem to think.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>One little problem, the whole point of test server is so that stuff can be tested before it hits live. If I move my main from live to test, so I can help out and make sure bad stuff doesnt get through on live, then I have completely negated the whole reason for transfering, as now my Main Character is on Test and Not on a live server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And 2nd, suggesting someone re-levels a toon all the way to 50 of the exact same type is preposterous as that is a huge invesment of time. Meanwhile I am neglecting my main since I am trying to level my test toon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless I think in order not to "upset" the test community by copying over a ton of high level characters. A SECOND test server STRICLY for real testing needs to be created. This server would allow copies over and would be wiped every month. This way current testers can live in their own world without preventing some real hardcore testing to take place. In addition this would be a temporary server that would only be active inbetween large live updates and revamps that needed large scale testing and parsing.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class=date_text>08-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:51 AM</span>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nibblar wrote:<FONT size=2> <P>There is lots of incentive, to make the live servers better! I would love to play my copied toons on test and provide feedback as well as comparisons to the current system, the good and bad. If they delete my test toons after the update that is fine. However, I’m not going to transfer them over or create the 6 classes I play on live and start over on test. If SoE expects customers to test their game by transferring their toons from live or leveling from the beginning then they are misguided in their goals. Look at the state of the game at launch, many classes were unplayable or extremely difficult to play for several months. This is after the supposed thorough and lengthy pre launch beta test and many live updates. There is not enough people testing or providing feedback. When LU #13 is published the game will have been out for 11 months. As a customer I expect VERY FEW problems with the combat revamp; I repeat, VERY FEW, with minimal in game live server issues. They need to allow copies of toons from live, permanent or temporary I don’t care. Test server is there to support the live servers, simple as that! The more people that are allowed to test with minimal inconvenience (copying or testbuff) will make EQ2 a better game. The current policies in place prevent sufficient end user testing and feedback. Most customers experience with the combat revamp will be after September 12th, this is to late. Customers should have the option to use test with minimal restrictions (copied toons or testbuff), this does not exist right now.<BR></P></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>test server with short term population spikes only when big updates come = bad</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>test server with long term population to test everything all the time = good</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>copying characters does not promote a long term population</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <P>I must be confused as the purpose of test server, thought it was to test and evaluate content for problems prior to hitting the live servers.</P> <P> </P> <P>More people testing = good</P> <P>Potentially more feedback (although no guarantee) = good</P> <P>Better for EQ2 long term= aye!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P></DIV>

[Svan]

<P>Chaos, what you're asking for is a preview server.</P> <P>..."hardcore testing", that gave me a chuckle</P>

[Svan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nibblar wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P>More people testing = good</P> <P>Potentially more feedback (although no guarantee) = good</P> <P>Better for EQ2 long term= aye!<BR></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>a long term, constant test population is better than everyone flooding to the server whenever there is a big good/bad update. things are getting updated constantly, and there needs to be people all the time there to have it tested on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so in the long term, character copies suck.</DIV>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TroodonIE wrote:<BR>Perhaps its time to take a look at how testing is conducted? That for such a dramatic change as the Combat Changes, testing is opened up to all.<BR><BR>The problem with the current state of affairs is that <FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>Test isn’t really a testing environment</FONT>; it’s a server that just gets changes before the rest of the servers. It has a community that the Devs understandably don’t want to disrupt with a large scale and probably temporary influx of players.<BR><BR>I propose a Sandbox server specifically for testing the current Combat Changes, but also potentially for use when future significant changes are to be made.<BR><BR>Sandbox would be accessible until the day the changes went live.<BR><BR>Sandbox is identical to Test bar the implementation of the following commands:<BR><BR>/<B>setToon</B> <I>[race] [</I><I>class] [level]</I><BR>e.g. /setToon dwarf berserker 31<BR>Sets the toon to the specified race, class and level. Toons are given a random appearance. In the example a level 31 dwarf berserker would be created.<BR><BR>/<B>setSpellQuality</B> <I>(app1, app2, app3, app4, adpt1, adpt3, mas1)</I><BR>e.g. /setSpellQuality adt1<BR>Sets the quality of a toons entire CAs/spells to the level specified. In the example a toon would be outfitted with adept1 CAs/spells.<BR><BR><B>/specifySpell </B><I>[spell/CA name] [quality]</I><BR>e.g. /specifySpell Pious Aid adpt3<BR>Sets the quality of the specified spell to a particular level. In the examine the toon would be equipped with an adept 3 Poius Aid.<BR><BR>/<B>equipToon</B> <I>(treasured, common, rare, fabled, random)</I><BR>e.g. /equipToon random<BR>Equips a toon with a set of equipment of the quality specified. Equipment is drawn randomly from a table appropriate for that tier-class, proviso that any red con items are redrawn to prevent a toon ending up with treasured/fabled equipment they cant actually use. In the example a toon would be outfitted in a set of gear draw from all the tables appropriate for their class-tier e.g. they would have some treasured, some common player crafted, some rare crafted and some fabled items).<BR><BR>/<B>cornucopia</B><BR>e.g. /cornucopia<BR>Summons a random stack of level appropriate food and drink.<BR><BR>All this would require a diversion of resources to do, though such might be worth it in the long term. Its worth pointing out that such commands probably wouldn’t have to be coded from scratch A versions that probably already exist for GMs on the live servers and for SoEs own internal use could just be encapsulated for tester use.<BR><BR>Such a set up would allow for much more thorough evaluation than what Test is capable of, even its only while people briefly assure themselves that the sky isn’t falling. However I think you’ll find that there will be more than a few dedicated potential Testers willing to lend a hand to test properly.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN>Great idea, be nice to have a pure test environment.<SPAN>  However, there should be a permanent server for this not just for major changes.</P></SPAN></SPAN><BR> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nibblar wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P>More people testing = good</P> <P>Potentially more feedback (although no guarantee) = good</P> <P>Better for EQ2 long term= aye!<BR></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>a long term, constant test population is better than everyone flooding to the server whenever there is a big good/bad update. things are getting updated constantly, and there needs to be people all the time there to have it tested on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so in the long term, character copies suck.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It is not better for the live servers, only better for the test server population.  The live servers is where a vast majority of the customer base is located, this effects them too.  They shouldnt have to transfer toons or spend hunderds of hours leveling to help test updates, its not a viable option.  If LU 13 hits the live servers with any significant problems I think it will effect the customer base.  There are several posts on these fourms with customers stating they are waiting on the revamp before they decide to stay or go.  Its in everyones interest to ensure a good update, or I'm I wrong?  BTW, I have never agreed with the test server polices since day one.  It doesnt  promote a good test ennviornemnt or encourage lots of people to test.  The fact that many classes are still being “revamped” doesn’t give me a high degree of confidence either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I hear they already copy toons on a case by case basis.  So appears to happen now!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN>Anyway, I’m done complaining about test server policies... I voiced my concerns and arguments, nothing new to add <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><FONT color=#000000></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>08-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:53 PM</span>

[Svan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Nibblar wrote: <P>It is not better for the live servers, only better for the test server population.  The live servers is where a vast majority of the customer base is located, this effects them too.  They shouldnt have to transfer toons or spend hunderds of hours leveling to help test updates, its not a viable option.  If LU 13 hits the live servers with any significant problems I think it will effect the customer base.  There are several posts on these fourms with customers stating they are waiting on the revamp before they decide to stay or go.  Its in everyones interest to ensure a good update, or I'm I wrong?  BTW, I have never agreed with the test server polices since day one.  It doesnt  promote a good test ennviornemnt or encourage lots of people to test.  The fact that many classes are still being “revamped” doesn’t give me a high degree of confidence either.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I hear they already copy toons on a case by case basis.  So appears to happen now!<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>small updates can break the game too, thus the need for a constant test population.</P> <P>and yes, they do. but not at the rate or size to cause any problems.</P> <P><BR></P>

[Kenazeer]

<DIV>Decided to roll up a clone of my main last night on Test....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>9:00 PM EST>>>>>  Less than 20 players level 40-50, not in each level, but OVERALL</DIV> <DIV>11:30 PM EST>>>>  Less than 20 players level 40-50, not in each level, but OVERALL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is enough to test?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kenazeer wrote:<div></div> <div>Decided to roll up a clone of my main last night on Test....</div> <div> </div> <div>9:00 PM EST>>>>>  Less than 20 players level 40-50, not in each level, but OVERALL</div> <div>11:30 PM EST>>>>  Less than 20 players level 40-50, not in each level, but OVERALL</div> <div>   </div><hr></blockquote> There are enough home-grown level 50 players on Test for a four-group raid.  There are many others in the mid and high 40s.  Just because you don't see them all on at once in the same six-hour period doesn't mean they're not there.  It's true, they're rarely all on at once, but they do play.</span><div></div>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EtoilePB wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kenazeer wrote:<BR> <DIV>Decided to roll up a clone of my main last night on Test....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>9:00 PM EST>>>>>  Less than 20 players level 40-50, not in each level, but OVERALL</DIV> <DIV>11:30 PM EST>>>>  Less than 20 players level 40-50, not in each level, but OVERALL</DIV> <DIV>  <BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There are enough home-grown level 50 players on Test for a four-group raid.  There are many others in the mid and high 40s.  Just because you don't see them all on at once in the same six-hour period doesn't mean they're not there. <FONT color=#66ff00> It's true, they're rarely all on at once, but they do play.<BR></FONT></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So you are acknowledging that what I saw was the norm? And you are of the opinion that 20 level 40-50 on at a single time is enough to completely and thoroughly test this update? Wow.</P> <P>Maybe I will start logging in one of my computers to Test after I get home at night and keep it logged in checking hourly for populations. Anyone think a week of the above numbers would prompt Sony to allow us to copy? Or we just gonna be hung out to dry?</P> <P>Can some of you testers please chime in and tell me when you peak time is? I would be interested in seeing populations then.<BR></P>

[KBern]

<P>There is nothing wrong with you showing the numbers on the test server.</P> <P>It would give a good idea if the changes are being tested extensively enough.</P> <P>If the numbers are high, then great, the testing should go well, if they are as low as many think, then this should be a flag for SOE to make a slight change to the test server rules so the changes can be adequately tested by a healthy population.</P>

[dejahtho]

<span><blockquote><hr>EtoilePB wrote: There are enough home-grown level 50 players on Test for a four-group raid.  There are many others in the mid and high 40s.  Just because you don't see them all on at once in the same six-hour period doesn't mean they're not there.  It's true, they're rarely all on at once, but they do play. <span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>ONE four grp raid?  </span><div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>dejahthors wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>EtoilePB wrote: There are enough home-grown level 50 players on Test for a four-group raid.  There are many others in the mid and high 40s.  Just because you don't see them all on at once in the same six-hour period doesn't mean they're not there.  It's true, they're rarely all on at once, but they do play. <span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>ONE four grp raid?  </span><div></div><hr></blockquote> I said HOME-GROWN.  Please don't forget the raiding guild copies.  They've all been out and about too.</span><div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kenazeer wrote:<BR> <P align=left>So you are acknowledging that what I saw was the norm? And you are of the opinion that 20 level 40-50 on at a single time is enough to completely and thoroughly test this update? Wow.</P> <P>Maybe I will start logging in one of my computers to Test after I get home at night and keep it logged in checking hourly for populations. Anyone think a week of the above numbers would prompt Sony to allow us to copy? Or we just gonna be hung out to dry?</P> <P>Can some of you testers please chime in and tell me when you peak time is? I would be interested in seeing populations then.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Less then 20 level 40 - 50 players would need a hell, and i mean a <STRONG><U>HELL</U></STRONG> of alot more time then a month to test a change of this magnitude more throughly unless you had them playing 10 - 15 hours a day 7 days a week SOILD, MAYBE then they might have a chance, but then you run the chance of burning them out and losing there focus and little problems slip through the shields. More fresh Shields = More blocked bad code.</P> <P>ONE four man / woman raid? Only One? And they constantly test the raid boss mobs daily i take it? As in when they pop? ANd what about Raid boss mobs such as Venekor who can take upto 8 days to pop? They get to test him out what, 4 times before release of the new combat system?</P> <P>This is going to be one hell of a ride when they release this new content and changes, i can feel the rush now.<BR></P>

[Swordmage]

<P>I am a bit confused by this discussion. It sounds as though people believe that only the level 40-50 characters can test the updates. It seems to me that at least 2/3s of the spells and combat arts fall into the 0-39 range, isn't it conceivable that people with high level characters are testing using lower level alts.</P> <P>Another thing to keep in mind is that even if we copied every level 50 character from live to test, there still wouldn't be enough time to test every possible combination of play style, group/raid composition, target. The best that any limited test environment can hope to accomplish is to find the fatal flaws in an update like this -- make sure that the classes mesh together well, make sure they solo well, follow them through process of leveling to detect dead spots in their spell/art sets, make sure the arts do what people expect them to and that they actually serve a class directed purpose, make sure the classes are still fun to play, ...</P> <P>By all means, have an environment where people can come and go to test specific features like the combat changes (I love that sandbox concept); however, don't underestimate the power of a stable test population that has learned how to sniff out problems. Both have their uses.</P> <P> </P> <P>One final note: the people who play regularly on test will be there only as long as they think they can contribute, while having the kind of environment that is satisfying and enjoyable -- they are understandably protective of their environment (I am a relative new comer to test who is still in the process of integrating myself into the community there). They are there because they want to make the game better, but not necessarily there to answer every conceivable question posed to them by a horde of justifiably interested players. When people like Gage go out of their way and take significant time to publish information about what is coming, please don't assume it is the obligation of other testers to follow in their footsteps, they may actually have jobs and families and, who knows, other interests outside of EQ -- they are just people like you.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Swordmage wrote:<BR> <P>I am a bit confused by this discussion. It sounds as though people believe that only the level 40-50 characters can test the updates. It seems to me that at least 2/3s of the spells and combat arts fall into the 0-39 range, isn't it conceivable that people with high level characters are testing using lower level alts.</P> <P>Another thing to keep in mind is that even if we copied every level 50 character from live to test, there still wouldn't be enough time to test every possible combination of play style, group/raid composition, target. The best that any limited test environment can hope to accomplish is to find the fatal flaws in an update like this -- make sure that the classes mesh together well, make sure they solo well, follow them through process of leveling to detect dead spots in their spell/art sets, make sure the arts do what people expect them to and that they actually serve a class directed purpose, make sure the classes are still fun to play, ...</P> <P>By all means, have an environment where people can come and go to test specific features like the combat changes (I love that sandbox concept); however, don't underestimate the power of a stable test population that has learned how to sniff out problems. Both have their uses.</P> <P> </P> <P>One final note: the people who play regularly on test will be there only as long as they think they can contribute, while having the kind of environment that is satisfying and enjoyable -- they are understandably protective of their environment (I am a relative new comer to test who is still in the process of integrating myself into the community there). They are there because they want to make the game better, but not necessarily there to answer every conceivable question posed to them by a horde of justifiably interested players. When people like Gage go out of their way and take significant time to publish information about what is coming, please don't assume it is the obligation of other testers to follow in their footsteps, they may actually have jobs and families and, who knows, other interests outside of EQ -- they are just people like you.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No offence Swordmage but you make it sound like what SoE is doing is ok. I mean honestly, who in the hell wants to completely relearn there entire class after it has been that way for almost a year now simply because SoE stuffed up on there first attempt at releasing what they thought *at the time* was a finished product? NO ONE. No one wants to completely relearn there chars all over again, sure it wont take long to pick it up, but everything we know now is going out the window and starting from scratch, excapt graphics basically.</P> <P>People want to know numbers, facts, raw data, we DESERVE to know after a stunt like this that SoE is pulling, that means from lvl 1 all the way to 50, every single spell, every single detail, we deserve to know whats going on with a change of this magnitude, not left in the dark.</P> <P>Let me ask you this, do you think majority of the people who have already been lvl 50 for quite some time or are closing in on 50 are looking forward to relearning there entire class all over again? Would you be surprised if you see the servers become less populated after the new combat changes go live? Do you think that the majority of high lvl players that are 50 now are just spending this final month playing with friends before they smack that cancel subscription button because of the direction SoE are going? Has any game that you know off gone through so many core changes and such a <STRONG><U>huge</U></STRONG> core change that isnt even into 1 year of release, cause there is none i know off, none. How many people do you think have already hit the cancel button that is fed up with SoE's attempt to make a game that there looking to find while people pay to play some kind of deformed beta version thats live?</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>08-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:04 PM</span>

[Svan]

<P>Aonein, sorry, but you're blowing these changes way out of proportion.</P> <P>yes, these changes are significant, but not to the extreme you're making it out to be.</P> <DIV>in my opinion, what Sony is doing is ok. it's my belief that we're paying to play the game as they create it, not paying them to create a game to our specifications.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR> <P>Aonein, sorry, but you're blowing these changes way out of proportion.</P> <P>yes, these changes are significant, but not to the extreme you're making it out to be.</P> <DIV>in my opinion, what Sony is doing is ok. it's my belief that we're paying to play the game as they create it, not paying them to create a game to our specifications.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats not the point here Svanny, the point is, is there enough people to test the magnitude of a Expasion + Major Core game change this size? My answer is no, and what people want to see is something that will work from the day it goes live, not a repeat of Day 1 EQ2 release of months and months of /bug reporting and having to gather up countless amounts of data and numbers that should be done during Test and Beta period to make sure that its at least 90% workable, <STRONG><U>what ever</U></STRONG> they decide to be there idea of the game they want to make, they need stick to it and stop changing the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] system so much and build upon it, not change it every so many months because they can and think we wont go anywhere.</P> <P>Lots of competition coming up for EQ2, lots of competition today in the world of MMORPG's, SoE need to get this epxasion and combat changes right if they dont want to lose more customers. Thats the point here, not my view on what should be what or who should do what, i dont care to be honest, just want all the class's to be some what balanced with each having there own niche and fantasy flavour, thats what im hoping SoE finally get under control instead of the random fixs which do more harm then good.</P>

[Swordmage]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Swordmage wrote:<BR> <P>I am a bit confused by this discussion. It sounds as though people believe that only the level 40-50 characters can test the updates. It seems to me that at least 2/3s of the spells and combat arts fall into the 0-39 range, isn't it conceivable that people with high level characters are testing using lower level alts.</P> <P>Another thing to keep in mind is that even if we copied every level 50 character from live to test, there still wouldn't be enough time to test every possible combination of play style, group/raid composition, target. The best that any limited test environment can hope to accomplish is to find the fatal flaws in an update like this -- make sure that the classes mesh together well, make sure they solo well, follow them through process of leveling to detect dead spots in their spell/art sets, make sure the arts do what people expect them to and that they actually serve a class directed purpose, make sure the classes are still fun to play, ...</P> <P>By all means, have an environment where people can come and go to test specific features like the combat changes (I love that sandbox concept); however, don't underestimate the power of a stable test population that has learned how to sniff out problems. Both have their uses.</P> <P> </P> <P>One final note: the people who play regularly on test will be there only as long as they think they can contribute, while having the kind of environment that is satisfying and enjoyable -- they are understandably protective of their environment (I am a relative new comer to test who is still in the process of integrating myself into the community there). They are there because they want to make the game better, but not necessarily there to answer every conceivable question posed to them by a horde of justifiably interested players. When people like Gage go out of their way and take significant time to publish information about what is coming, please don't assume it is the obligation of other testers to follow in their footsteps, they may actually have jobs and families and, who knows, other interests outside of EQ -- they are just people like you.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No offence Swordmage but you make it sound like what SoE is doing is ok. I mean honestly, who in the hell wants to completely relearn there entire class after it has been that way for almost a year now simply because SoE stuffed up on there first attempt at releasing what they thought *at the time* was a finished product? NO ONE. No one wants to completely relearn there chars all over again, sure it wont take long to pick it up, but everything we know now is going out the window and starting from scratch, excapt graphics basically.</P> <P>People want to know numbers, facts, raw data, we DESERVE to know after a stunt like this that SoE is pulling, that means from lvl 1 all the way to 50, every single spell, every single detail, we deserve to know whats going on with a change of this magnitude, not left in the dark.</P> <P>Let me ask you this, do you think majority of the people who have already been lvl 50 for quite some time or are closing in on 50 are looking forward to relearning there entire class all over again? Would you be surprised if you see the servers become less populated after the new combat changes go live? Do you think that the majority of high lvl players that are 50 now are just spending this final month playing with friends before they smack that cancel subscription button because of the direction SoE are going? Has any game that you know off gone through so many core changes and such a <STRONG><U>huge</U></STRONG> core change that isnt even into 1 year of release, cause there is none i know off, none. How many people do you think have already hit the cancel button that is fed up with SoE's attempt to make a game that there looking to find while people pay to play some kind of deformed beta version thats live?</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>08-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:04 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I certainly was not appologizing for what SOE was doing in making the changes, nor was I defending the revolutionary aspects of the changs (I am not sure how you read that into my reply). All I was talking about was the testing process itself and what is needed at the level of the test server. </P> <P>One of my main points was that though people may deserve to know about the changes from SOE, and I don't disaggree about that, <STRONG>they don't deserve to demand that the volunteer testers</STRONG>, who are players, just like them, stop what they are doing and spend the hours needed to collate materials to answer their questions as though the testers somehow owed them something for being on test. I find it very distrubing to find threads on these forums which demand infomation from the testers and whine when they are not responded to (not your thread, fortunately, but these others were some of the influence that went into my response--yours was a thread heading in the direction I was concerned about that was thoughful enough for people to be reading).</P> <DIV>I would completely support a parallel test environment for people to visit, via oneway copy(not move) to see what is in the works. I just wanted to say that there is value in the long term integrety of the existing test server community.</DIV>

[KBern]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR> <P>Aonein, sorry, but you're blowing these changes way out of proportion.</P> <P>yes, these changes are significant, but not to the extreme you're making it out to be.</P> <DIV>in my opinion, what Sony is doing is ok. it's my belief that we're paying to play the game as they create it, not paying them to create a game to our specifications.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am sorry but I disagree.  He is not blowing them out of proportion.</P> <P>These changes are making eq2 a differnt game on the same map grid.  EQ2 held a huge BETA for release and they still released it screwed up.</P> <P>The testing of these changes is no where as large or as long as the initial BETA so my cynical side expects many problems and bugs.</P> <P>We are simply asking SOE to help us help them.  The more testing the merrier.  There is no debating that when it comes to such a large and sweeping change.</P> <P>For the person that said we should be happy to have lvl 20-40 there testing our class, why?  I am level 50.  Who is testing the lvl 40-50 content and changes?</P> <P>What my spells did 20-30 levels ago, means nothing to me now.  I am not trying to sound elitist, just honest, I want to know how my paladin will be affected.</P> <P>Are all my icons different on my hot key bank, are my spells the same, different, how?  I would love to personally check these out.</P> <DIV>Maybe they should have simply opened up a copy/shadow server for a short time for these changes.  That way, the test environment that you all have built won't be tainted (not being sarcastic here but trying to go with the concerns of the testers).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The people who want to copy, fiddle around, and test the changes can.  We all would be happier now, and my money is on that we would be happier in the future with more bugs/issues being found.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>CoH has a web tool that players can do that for themselves so all it would take is the initial set up and I think it would help out all parties.</DIV><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class=date_text>08-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 AM</span>