Combat patch moved back to DOF release date.

[Vosh]

As posted in the Official announcments... Is anyone relaly surprised? Was there anyone who didn't already believe that's exactly what was intended ? Keep it NDA until the very last moment when hopefully the players will be too distracted by the new game content to notice the travesty made of the combat system? Or  I could be wrong. It may not be a travesty afterwall, but it is sad that its taken this long to release changes promised for months. Granted this is well within normal Sony operations - supporting the player base isn't that profitable. According to the latest MMOG market share chart EQ 2 reigns in at a meager 3.1% compared to WoW's still lofty 22%. So the player base for EQ 2 has been shrinking not expanding, is there a point that this will ring some bells at the ol' home office? Or is there still this misconception that EQ is the only game out there and Sony may do as it pleases and not worry about its EQ 2 profits? Not to mention the very idea of releasing such a major patch to the essence of the game (its combat system) at the same time as a huge expansion pack is in the developmental view ludicrous. I'm also fairly certain its no coincidence that in order to see the combat canges yourself and determine if in fact you're still willing to play EQ 2 you have to shell out the cash for the expansion FIRST! How clever... <div></div>

[Deson]

LU13 and the combat changes, while being pushed on the same day as the expansion, are wholly independent of. <div></div>

[Raxe Sla]

<DIV>Whats funny about this is that i was going to make a post yesterday saying how it was so obvious that the combat changes werent coming out until the expansion hits.  This is extremely predictable and absolutly ridiculous.  SOE has been promising changes for like 6 months.  This really is inexcusable and complete BS.  When its expansion hits its going to be like an entirely new game.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raxe Slade on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:13 PM</span>

[Krixi]

"I'm also fairly certain its no coincidence that in order to see the combat canges yourself and determine if in fact you're still willing to play EQ 2 you have to shell out the cash for the expansion FIRST! How clever..."Where does it state that you need to buy the expansion to see the combat changes? I'm baffled as to where you got this idea from. The combat changes are going to affect the WHOLE GAME, not just the people who are buying the expansion.

[Mascouti]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deson wrote:<BR>LU13 and the combat changes, while being pushed on the same day as the expansion, are wholly independent of. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Disagree with this.   They are not independant of each other.  There is no way they can release the expansion without the combat changes.  That is why the combant changes are in the DoF beta.  Though I could be wrong.   Wouldn't be the first time.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Mascouti on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:42 PM</span>

[Deson]

<div></div>The statement merely addressed that you don't have to buy the expansion to get the changes. Personally I would love the expansion being pushed back a month so  I can get a feel for the new combat rather than trying to relearn the game and exploring a new world at the same time but that hardly seems marketable and isnt really that big a deal since thats what I did when I first started. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Deson on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:45 PM</span>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Voshua wrote:<BR>Is anyone relaly surprised? Was there anyone who didn't already believe that's exactly what was intended ? Keep it NDA until the very last moment when hopefully the players will be too distracted by the new game content to notice the travesty made of the combat system? <BR><BR>... <BR><BR>I'm also fairly certain its no coincidence that in order to see the combat canges yourself and determine if in fact you're still willing to play EQ 2 you have to shell out the cash for the expansion FIRST! How clever...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The combat changes won't fall under the NDA anymore as soon as they go to the Test server, which will likely be this week. Every subscriber will have a nice chunk of time to experience them on Test and provide feedback. I'd imagine those who don't want to try it for themselves will still be able to glean plenty of information from threads that people who actually test the changes post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As someone else in this thread pointed out, you won't need to buy the expansion for the combat changes. The combat revamp is part of the live game; the new content, level cap increase, and new features are parts of the expansion. I've already posted why we felt the Beta server should have the combat changes in place before they went to Test. It was merely a practical decision, not some secret scheme to trick people into buying the expansion.</DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Thank you soooooooooo much MG! means at most we are only 3 days from learning the CU changes! For good or ill, im happy we will finaly know!</P> <P>Thank you so much for giving us a heads up MG!:smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Unmask]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>The combat changes won't fall under the NDA anymore as soon as they go to the Test server, which will likely be this week. Every subscriber will have a nice chunk of time to experience them on Test and provide feedback. I'd imagine those who don't want to try it for themselves will still be able to glean plenty of information from threads that people who actually test the changes post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As someone else in this thread pointed out, you won't need to buy the expansion for the combat changes. The combat revamp is part of the live game; the new content, level cap increase, and new features are parts of the expansion. I've already posted why we felt the Beta server should have the combat changes in place before they went to Test. It was merely a practical decision, not some secret scheme to trick people into buying the expansion.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Thanks.  As long as they're on test for a decent length of time then I'm ok with it even if I can only find out about it 2nd hand.  For me on a dialup connection it just takes way way way too long to update test even if I wanted to try and level a character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can you please consider making <STRONG>all</STRONG> voicepaks as optional for the sake of us dial up users? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[FelixDomesticus]

Yeah, "combat changes will not be part of new expansion" we were told, "we can patch it anytime, it is not tied to live updates" they also told us. And once again both were blatant lies! I have waited over 4 months for that god damned patch that supposedly makes my main playable again and now they eat all their words again. I have always thought that SOE could not care less about their players, but this was lowest one ever. Way to go! Good sign of your non-existent customer support! 4 months with totally broken class which you refused to fix as "patch is coming soon"! Lies after lies... <div></div>

[Sorvani]

get over yourself man. they aren't part of the expansion. they are being released at the same time. they never said that they would not be part of a live update. they said specifically that they wouldn't be tied to any specific live update, but be held until they were completed. it's obvious that they are now almost completed and will be on test for a month (assuming they release this week like they said) for testing and tweaking before they push it to live servers. at the same time they'll push they are pushing some other changes, and calling the package LU13.. <div></div>

[Caldabuse]

Felixetc, You're under the (mistaken) assumption that this means the combat changes are being pushed BACK. It's quite possible this would push them FORWARD as now they must be ready for the September 12th deadline. It's still not a good thing, but I'll wait to see how things look on test. It's possible that the new system will be mostly right on the first pass. It's possible (if unlikely). Of course, since you clearly would prefer to patch now, fix later, you should be overjoyed that the changes have a deadline instead of being released after being thoroughly tested. I'll be glad to see what's new once this goes onto test and reserve final judgement until then. But really, this is part of EVERY MMO. If things are postponed, people will complain. If things are push lived with bugs, people will complain. The only way to avoid this is to get it perfect every time. That won't happen because this is reality. And yes, I'm desperately awaiting the combat changes in the hopes that they will restore my viability as a healer as well. <div></div>

[Finora]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FelixDomesticus wrote:<BR>Yeah, "combat changes will not be part of new expansion" we were told, "we can patch it anytime, it is not tied to live updates" they also told us. And once again both were blatant lies! I have waited over 4 months for that god damned patch that supposedly makes my main playable again and now they eat all their words again.<BR><BR>I have always thought that SOE could not care less about their players, but this was lowest one ever. Way to go! Good sign of your non-existent customer support! 4 months with totally broken class which you refused to fix as "patch is coming soon"! Lies after lies...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know this isn't what the thread is about, but I am curious what class you play, you couldn't be a templar, everyone loves having templars heal. Couldn't be a warden or fury, their big problem is agro not lack of healing. Couldn't be a mystic because despite the fact that wards aren't presently doing what they should, I 've never had a situation where I was completely unable to do anything yet and I'm nearly 45. (never done anyhigh end raiding though)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defiler or inquisitor perhaps?</DIV>

[VettsVey]

Dunno, 4 months of waiting for everything to be looked at, checked, considered, checking NPC abilites vs players, Players vs NPC, resists, damage dealt by both, mitigation... etc etc  seems kinda reasonable to me.  Its not like you can just patch and go in a months time over something as complicated as Combat.  Combat is what this game is about, practically.  Alot of things needed to be fixed or improved upon, same time, gotta consider what the NPCs could do to you, and make a fair trade-off.  So erm, that being said... take a valuim and wait 1 month and 1 week ... hells you waited 4 months, how hard is 1 more month?  Or better yet, go help them on test server and give them feedback... I dunno... so many choices to choose from.

[Edgr]

<DIV>They have to allow a month for all the Enchanters that are gonna flip out and start riots on the message boards. Just wait and see :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Deson]

You know,  revisting this thread made me appreciate the humor of the combat changes going live with the expansion and LU<b>13</b>! Talk about tempting fate. Considering no LU in  memory (my memory at least) has gone as well as planned I don't think I'm logging in for a week after to be sure heh. <div></div>

[MorDeca]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <div>The combat changes won't fall under the NDA anymore as soon as they go to the Test server, which will likely be this week. Every subscriber will have a nice chunk of time to experience them on Test and provide feedback. I'd imagine those who don't want to try it for themselves will still be able to glean plenty of information from threads that people who actually test the changes post.</div> <div> </div> <div>As someone else in this thread pointed out, you won't need to buy the expansion for the combat changes. The combat revamp is part of the live game; the new content, level cap increase, and new features are parts of the expansion. I've already posted why we felt the Beta server should have the combat changes in place before they went to Test. It was merely a practical decision, not some secret scheme to trick people into buying the expansion.</div><hr></blockquote> Question :    Once the Combat changes hit the test server, will those people that were previously under NDA on the beta server be allowed to discuss the changes that they see as level 50s?  I feel this is quite important since there is no one in that level range currently on the test server ( correct me if I am wrong ). </span><div></div>

[Naginata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MorDecaio wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV>The combat changes won't fall under the NDA anymore as soon as they go to the Test server, which will likely be this week. Every subscriber will have a nice chunk of time to experience them on Test and provide feedback. I'd imagine those who don't want to try it for themselves will still be able to glean plenty of information from threads that people who actually test the changes post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As someone else in this thread pointed out, you won't need to buy the expansion for the combat changes. The combat revamp is part of the live game; the new content, level cap increase, and new features are parts of the expansion. I've already posted why we felt the Beta server should have the combat changes in place before they went to Test. It was merely a practical decision, not some secret scheme to trick people into buying the expansion.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Question : <BR>   Once the Combat changes hit the test server, will those people that were previously under NDA on the beta server be allowed to discuss the changes that they see as level 50s?  I feel this is quite important since there is no one in that level range currently on the test server ( correct me if I am wrong ).<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>They won't be able to talk about any DOF info but yes, they can talk about the combat changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ANd what gave you the idea that test has no level 50s or raiders? Test is a normal server with just a really small population. </DIV>

[VettsVey]

Hrm, rabid Chanters, unlucky 13, total revamp..... yeah, think I will just craft for a while :smileywink:

[Ricassari]

Now we finally know that when SOE says they won't fix a classbreaking bug because they will do a major patch fixing it all "soon", it will take 6 months till we can continue to play. Customer service at its best. <div></div>

[Khilendel]

<DIV>Sounds like a load of crap to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean, with the amount of times its been pushed back (starting from LU6) you're starting to sound like blizzard entertainment with Diablo2.</DIV>

[TwiztidS]

This is totaly insane. I can see the fourm titles now "Black Monday".  *wonders how long the servers will be down starting the 12th* 67 hours my guess:smileysad:

[Qandor]

Let's see expansion and total combat revision hitting on the same day. This is going to  be fun. If past performance provides any inkling of how this will go, I'd say chances of anything approaching a smooth launch are very slim if not non-existent. Going to be wild times on the forum that day.

[ginfress]

<P>Combat changes aka we are nerfing certain classes to hell and back because we think they are too powerful so they are equal too those classes people think as useless crap atm...</P> <P>And having a major update and an expansion going live on the same day......note to self...expect not being able to play for a few days because most likely and as usual SoE will [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]up bigtime!</P> <p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>08-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[missionarymarr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caldabuse wrote:<BR>Felixetc,<BR><BR>You're under the (mistaken) assumption that this means the combat changes are being pushed BACK. It's quite possible this would push them FORWARD as now they must be ready for the September 12th deadline. It's still not a good thing, but I'll wait to see how things look on test. It's possible that the new system will be mostly right on the first pass. It's possible (if unlikely). Of course, since you clearly would prefer to patch now, fix later, you should be overjoyed that the changes have a deadline instead of being released after being thoroughly tested.<BR><BR>I'll be glad to see what's new once this goes onto test and reserve final judgement until then. But really, this is part of EVERY MMO. If things are postponed, people will complain. If things are push lived with bugs, people will complain. The only way to avoid this is to get it perfect every time. That won't happen because this is reality.<BR><BR>And yes, I'm desperately awaiting the combat changes in the hopes that they will restore my viability as a healer as well.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Actually he isn't referring to combat changes being pushed back. Instead he is refering to the priest changes to address problems with some of the subclasses. They were supposed to be part of LU 6. SOE changed their mind saying they were doing the combat changes and that it didn't make sense to make changes now when more changes might be needed in a little while later. This is where all the problems started and why I think a lot of people are annoyed the combat changes have taken so long. The impression was given that they weren't that far away when announced and yet it is 4 or so months later and they haven't been made.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Therefore I can understand his frustation being told they are going to fix your class. Then saying this is going to be delayed and yet giving the impression it won't be delayed that long and yet waiting 4 months he has a right to be frustated. The way things have turned out I think SOE was definately wrong not to have made the priest changes when they said they would. Of course that is now seeing how long things have taken to get done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other problem I see is that they have consistently said the Combat Changes won't go live till ready. Hopefully this will still be true but now though they have basically said that no matter whether they are ready or not they have to go live on the 12th with the expansion. Since they have said the changes have to be part of the expansion.</DIV><p>Message Edited by missionarymarr on <span class=date_text>08-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:23 AM</span>

[Sute]

<P>You can argue if they lied to us about the combat/healing patch. You can argue when they said they were coming. You can argue if its right or wrong. But.....you can NOT argue that the servers are going to go down, after down, after down when this expansion/combat changes/live update goes live.</P> <P>Each live update has been bug ridden. This is going to be a joke. and you know what we the players will get? A free day of double exp and a promise(lie) that it wont happen again.</P> <P>Either accept that. Or quit and stop giving SOE your money. What will I do? I will do what i always do. Accept the fact that these games are not easy to program or cheap to run, or that the devs have time to fix it before the "big fat man" tells them to release it.</P> <P>The expansion/liveupdate/combat revamp IS going to be a mess. But i will still play, cos i kno its a game, i know its the best 15bucks i can spend(right now) for the amount of entertainment i can get.</P> <P>Get over yourself, or stop paying <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Murchik]

<P>Look, guys and girls, what can you expect from the company that does this (they are all part of Sony is my guess):</P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/news/ap/20050803/112309392000.html" target=_blank>http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/news/ap/20050803/112309392000.html</A></P>

[KBern]

<P>Combat changes and expansion coming on the same day!?!?!</P> <P>Color me surprised.  (is there a rollseyes smiley?)</P>

[Ricassari]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Sutexi wrote: <p>Get over yourself, or stop paying <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> About 50k subscribers already have decided to stop paying. Lots of others have decided to not start paying: EQ2 has 200k, WoW 2,000k - 10 times as much. If the launch with this totally ridiculous setup goes as everyone expects, 3 days of downtime followed by 3 months of unfixed gamebreaking bugs, the next wave of cancellations will hit SOE. And even if I would ride it out and stay (not decided yet), its growing unfun to play on empty servers. And, if the subscriptions drop another 50k, there will be less money, meaning less development of the game - not to mention even slower bugfixes. This decision is ridiculous at best. It is really sad to see a game with that great potential being ruined by incompetence at every level from SOE. </span><div></div>

[KBern]

<P>It is very noticable the lower populations.  It could simply be from summer so we will know more once school starts up for people.</P> <P>I was trying out an Ogre Fighter (Bruiser) last night and was in Thieve's way at 9:30pm EST and I was the only person in TW fighting.</P> <P> </P>

[Eul]

<div></div>Since you still have a full month of testing, any chances that <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=66295" target="_blank">some of Beghns plans for tradeskill</a> will be included in LU13? Particularly looking forward to the crafting quests, crafting-enhancing armor and batch combines. Edit: Judgin by my rating, I guess there isn't a lot of crafters reading this thread. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Euler on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span>

[Culann Heartsto]

<div></div> I find it ironic that I posted this on the 21st of July and SOE is following through with it...not like anyone didn't realize already but...still ironic to me.. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=56497#M56497 Check Moorgard's post first, then about 2/3rd of way down mine shows up... Ahh well..good to know SOE's consistent.. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <p>Message Edited by Culann Heartstone on <span class=date_text>08-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:31 AM</span>

[KBern]

<P>I would test this but I dont have a lvl 50 paladin or a lvl 44 necro on the test server.  If they let us copy our toons, and not move, they would have many more people testing out content on the test server and getting much better feedback.</P> <P>I don't think starting a new toon there would give me much insights into how the changes will affect my main.</P>

[Eul]

They have the tools to copy but they handpick the persons that are being copied to test. It's really impossible for me to know how the changes will affect my warden because I'm looking at months of building up a similar level warden on test. I'll just start a scout on test, see how the combat change affect T1/T2. <div></div>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>Murchik wrote: <p>Look, guys and girls, what can you expect from the company that does this (they are all part of Sony is my guess):   <a href="http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/news/ap/20050803/112309392000.html" target="_blank">http://movies.yahoo.com/mv/news/ap/20050803/112309392000.html</a> </p><hr></blockquote> Vastly different.  First, that's marketting and the marketting dept for one division is far removed from the others.  Second, that's their entertainment/movie division, not online.  That would be like saying problems with aluminum foil will affect pastry snacks just because both of them have the same parent company.  Corporations, especially the HUGE ones spread into several fields, frequently have divisions, frequently formerly different companies, that don't have any connection to each other beyond paying money upstream to the corporations stock holders. Sony, the corporation, also makes computers (VAIO), robots (AIBO), console gaming units (Playstation), TVs, sound systems, Cell phones (Ericsson), etc.  And probably owns a few more small companies that don't get branded with "Sony" at this time (or maybe ever).</span><div></div>

[Orki who Pos]

<P><FONT color=#ccff66 size=6>I can't help but laugh.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=3>The latest possible date for the combat changes was the release date of DOF.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Who believes, <FONT color=#ffcc66><U>even for an instant</U></FONT>, that the combat changes are going to be actually finished by that date?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>Released, yes, finished, <U><FONT color=#ff6633>NOT EVEN CLOSE</FONT></U>. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>The release date for DOF is the absolute last minute they can push the update to the live servers, since it will be required to make DOF playable. Basically, this is admitting that the balancing fixes won't be done anytime soon, and that they will keep going on long after the release of DOF.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>A better date if they had been even somewhat finished would have been slightly before the DOF release, so it could generate publicity for the game, just as a major expansion was about to hit the shelves. But it was obviously decided that the changes was going to be bad, and not good publicity.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>I also find it highly amusing that shamen/furies ended up being recognized as broken for more than half a year before anything gets fixed, and that the priest rebalancing ended up going soo slowly.. tough luck for the furies/shamen/conjurors, but amusing for everybody else.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <DIV><FONT size=3>My accounts are now cancelled, i was hoping the combat changes would bring back some of the fun in the game, but i no longer have that illusion. It seems obvious to me that sony cant deliver, if nothing else, then from the fact that they will leave players with broken classes for months on end, even after recognizing the problems.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <span class=date_text>08-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:22 PM</span>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orki who Posts wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ccff66 size=6>I can't help but laugh.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=3>The latest possible date for the combat changes was the release date of DOF.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Who believes, <FONT color=#ffcc66><U>even for an instant</U></FONT>, that the combat changes are going to be actually finished by that date?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>Released, yes, finished, <U><FONT color=#ff6633>NOT EVEN CLOSE</FONT></U>. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>The release date for DOF is the absolute last minute they can push the update to the live servers, since it will be required to make DOF playable. Basically, this is admitting that the balancing fixes won't be done anytime soon, and that they will keep going on long after the release of DOF.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>A better date if they had been even somewhat finished would have been slightly before the DOF release, so it could generate publicity for the game, just as a major expansion was about to hit the shelves. But it was obviously decided that the changes was going to be bad, and not good publicity.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>I also find it highly amusing that shamen/furies ended up being recognized as broken for more than half a year before anything gets fixed, and that the priest rebalancing ended up going soo slowly.. tough luck for the furies/shamen/conjurors, but amusing for everybody else.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <DIV><FONT size=3>My accounts are now cancelled, i was hoping the combat changes would bring back some of the fun in the game, but i no longer have that illusion. It seems obvious to me that sony cant deliver, if nothing else, then from the fact that they will leave players with broken classes for months on end, even after recognizing the problems.</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <SPAN class=date_text>08-04-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:22 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sad thing is I am beginning to feel likewise. I enjoy the game right now, but the rumors I hear trickling out of beta don't enthuse me. Scouts loosing bow abilites sucks wind. Everyone remembers how effective rogues were with throwing daggers in EQ1 right? What a joke. Oh an btw that shiny new bow you attuned two weeks ago.....sorry...your screwed. Could go on with other stuff but I won't......WOOHOO I am going to do more damage....should have been that way from the start.</P> <P>Now, they all but admit they are going to roll out a product come hell or high water.</P> <P>I have two accounts who terminate very close to release. Is it worth 2X expansion and 2X more monthly fees to find out I don't like the game anymore? Who knows....still considering it. With the wife and kids going back to school, my duties around the house are going to increase, which mean less playtime. Maybe now is the time to cut the cord.</P> <P>Sad thing is most on these boards probably consider me a "fanboy." I think it is telling that I am starting to seesaw in the other direction.</P> <P>Two things SoE could do:</P> <OL> <LI>Open up the Beta Boards when the revamp hits Test. (I don't give a rats behind about getting a scoop on DoF. I want to know more about what is going on in the combat revamp. Screw the NDA....make your players happy)</LI> <LI>Allow people to copy characters to TEST.</LI></OL> <P> </P>

[Happyfunba]

<P>Nothing quite like the cyber version of stomping off to your room and slamming the door. The only thing better are the truly irrate ones who simply fall to the ground and kick their legs while holding their breath. Probably the best thing about each though is that the former leaves the room and the latter eventually passes out.</P> <P>Perhaps, and this is just a thought, when the Combat Revamp is revealed on test we can all start discussing the pro's and con's of the changes and weigh in on just how much further work still needs to be done on it. It just cracks me up though all the people lined up with "Sony lied" and "My class is completely nerfed now" waiting to be pasted into their New Topic. Don't even know yet, but their mind's already made up.</P> <P>It reminds me of watching The Daily Show when Stephen Colbert reported on Bush announcing his Supreme Court nominee. I believe his initial comments went something like: "John, the Democrats are outraged. They have been for weeks."</P>

[KnightOfTheWo]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr><span> This decision is ridiculous at best. It is really sad to see a game with that great potential being ruined by incompetence at every level from SOE. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Do some people exist only to complain? Help me to understand...nevermind, don't bother. This post will attract enough flames anyway, I'm the "anti-complainer thought police" who is "complaining about the complainers" and that makes me a hypocrite, blah blah etc.  (So you don't have to include that in your flame.) It appears that even though they've announced a fairly neutral concept, (releasing combat changes on a given date, which is the same date as the expansion) nothing is good enough. Before today, the complaining was all about why won't they tell us the release date, why won't they send it to test, my dog died and it's SOE's fault...but then everytime they do anything it hardly matters, the howlers set up shop and complain for a month. They scream so loud they eventuallly forget what they were screaming about, and then come back out of their caves anytime the devs do anything else. (Anyone remember Station Exchange? What's that, you ask?) My point is, why not offer what your solution is instead of howling? Complain away, but where did you get this idea that they are trying to ruin your life? Since you know what's best for MMOs, what is the ultimate answer that would solve all MMOs problems? (Most creative answer I've seen: I'm going to play Vanguard.) If you don't have the answer at least try to post <i>something </i>that has a point. Anything. "The sky is blue and I like the the summer weather, so I will go outside and enjoy it." Or at least "I really just want them to compensate me so I can leave and go to the next MMO which will save us from SOE." Or "Eat at Joe's." Tantrums are fine as far as they go. But the poster who stated that people are falling down, holding their breath and kicking their legs is right. You may get some attention...right before you are told to go to your room and think happy thoughts. Flame on! EDIT: To the one-star troll: keep those ratings going! </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by KnightOfTheWord on <span class=date_text>08-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 AM</span>

[Vorlak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Voshua wrote:<BR>Is anyone relaly surprised? Was there anyone who didn't already believe that's exactly what was intended ? Keep it NDA until the very last moment when hopefully the players will be too distracted by the new game content to notice the travesty made of the combat system? <BR><BR>...<BR><BR>I'm also fairly certain its no coincidence that in order to see the combat canges yourself and determine if in fact you're still willing to play EQ 2 you have to shell out the cash for the expansion FIRST! How clever...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The combat changes won't fall under the NDA anymore as soon as they go to the Test server, which will likely be this week. Every subscriber will have a nice chunk of time to experience them on Test and provide feedback. I'd imagine those who don't want to try it for themselves will still be able to glean plenty of information from threads that people who actually test the changes post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As someone else in this thread pointed out, you won't need to buy the expansion for the combat changes. <STRONG><EM>The combat revamp is part of the live game; the new content, level cap increase, <FONT color=#ff0033>and new features</FONT> are parts of the expansion</EM></STRONG>. I've already posted why we felt the Beta server should have the combat changes in place before they went to Test. It was merely a practical decision, not some secret scheme to trick people into buying the expansion.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>WOOOT NEW BUGS!!!! (because we all know they refure to bugs as FEATURES!)</P> <P>Can we get an accurate idea of how many quest are broken currently, and how many more you plan to break with the expansion as well as encounter problems we can expect?</P> <P>Thanks.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Strade]

<P>So ...</P> <P>Are the :</P> <P>/face command<BR>SOGA models<BR>Iksar scales pattern</P> <P>Release at the same time??</P>

[Desulto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deson wrote:<BR>LU13 and the combat changes, while being pushed on the same day as the expansion, are wholly independent of. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm only disappointed that we were told the combat changes would be out BEFORE the expansion was released.  Disappointed doesn't mean [Removed for Content], however. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[OperationsX]

<DIV>SOE, I just have one sentences for you:<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV>Whirlwinds are bad, they cause disaster and destruction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the rest of you, I'd like to say whether you agree with this or disagree its absolutely insane at best to release a patch that will change the entire game (Spell revamp/combat revamp) and an entire expansion that will change the game ALL in one swoop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Expect everyone to catch up to the whirlwind in about a month+, meanwhile the economy will be in shambles that entire time.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Enjoy the last days of Everquest II everyone, cuz Everquest III releases in september!</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class=date_text>08-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:27 PM</span>

[Naginata]

I agee its a bad plan to release both on the same day. Didn't they ask any of the SWG devs how crazy the CU and ROTW releases were? They were not even on the same day! <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It will be crazy for a few days. Hopefully SOE can pull it off and keep things up and it will just be expansion and market insanity, but there was a reason some SWG servers got 4x exp for certain periods and the rest got 2x after the CU then expansion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way, I am looking forward to it, or the week after it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Dajuuk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ricassari wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>About 50k subscribers already have decided to stop paying. Lots of others have decided to not start paying: EQ2 has 200k, WoW 2,000k - 10 times as much. </SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Where do you get these numbers from?  Provide links to websites or something backing up your claim.   My personal observations are quite contrary.   Everybody I know that has tried WoW has already quit playing it and cancled their accounts.   I expect that WoW is not nearly as healthy as some people on this board would like us to believe.  If you really believe WoW is that much of a better game why aren't you playing it?</P> <P>SOE is many things but stupid, or unable to deliver what people really want are not two of those things.   EQ survived many launches by games that were supposed to kill them.   They have successfully delivered 3 MMORPG's now in an industry that has seen a high failure percentage.  Consumers vote with their wallets and as long as people keep paying and playing it is clear that the majority are happy with the game.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ehlana</P>

[Rohlstu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dajuuk wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ricassari wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>About 50k subscribers already have decided to stop paying. Lots of others have decided to not start paying: EQ2 has 200k, WoW 2,000k - 10 times as much. </SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Where do you get these numbers from?  Provide links to websites or something backing up your claim.   My personal observations are quite contrary.   Everybody I know that has tried WoW has already quit playing it and cancled their accounts.   I expect that WoW is not nearly as healthy as some people on this board would like us to believe.  If you really believe WoW is that much of a better game why aren't you playing it?</P> <P>SOE is many things but stupid, or unable to deliver what people really want are not two of those things.   EQ survived many launches by games that were supposed to kill them.   They have successfully delivered 3 MMORPG's now in an industry that has seen a high failure percentage.  Consumers vote with their wallets and as long as people keep paying and playing it is clear that the majority are happy with the game.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ehlana</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><U><FONT color=#800080><A href="http://www.mmogchart.com/" target=_blank>http://www.mmogchart.com/</A></FONT></U><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/MMORPG%20Statistics%20through%20June%202005" target=_blank></A></DIV><p>Message Edited by Rohlstusk on <span class=date_text>08-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:54 PM</span>

[Naginata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dajuuk wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ricassari wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>About 50k subscribers already have decided to stop paying. Lots of others have decided to not start paying: EQ2 has 200k, WoW 2,000k - 10 times as much. </SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Where do you get these numbers from?  Provide links to websites or something backing up your claim.   My personal observations are quite contrary.   Everybody I know that has tried WoW has already quit playing it and cancled their accounts.   I expect that WoW is not nearly as healthy as some people on this board would like us to believe.  If you really believe WoW is that much of a better game why aren't you playing it?</P> <P>SOE is many things but stupid, or unable to deliver what people really want are not two of those things.   EQ survived many launches by games that were supposed to kill them.   They have successfully delivered 3 MMORPG's now in an industry that has seen a high failure percentage.  Consumers vote with their wallets and as long as people keep paying and playing it is clear that the majority are happy with the game.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ehlana</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For the EQ2 numbers he is making them up. SOE does not release them, or he believes MMOchart which makes up the numbers based on rumors if the companies don't release them.</P> <P>The WOW numbers he is actually low. They have well over 2 million accounts worldwide.WoW is a huge sucess, how long will it last with massive numbers is the question since it really is a solo rpg till lvl 60 then do the same 3 raids over and over.<BR></P>

[OperationsX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naginataka wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dajuuk wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ricassari wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>About 50k subscribers already have decided to stop paying. Lots of others have decided to not start paying: EQ2 has 200k, WoW 2,000k - 10 times as much. </SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Where do you get these numbers from?  Provide links to websites or something backing up your claim.   My personal observations are quite contrary.   Everybody I know that has tried WoW has already quit playing it and cancled their accounts.   I expect that WoW is not nearly as healthy as some people on this board would like us to believe.  If you really believe WoW is that much of a better game why aren't you playing it?</P> <P>SOE is many things but stupid, or unable to deliver what people really want are not two of those things.   EQ survived many launches by games that were supposed to kill them.   They have successfully delivered 3 MMORPG's now in an industry that has seen a high failure percentage.  Consumers vote with their wallets and as long as people keep paying and playing it is clear that the majority are happy with the game.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ehlana</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For the EQ2 numbers he is making them up. SOE does not release them, or he believes MMOchart which makes up the numbers based on rumors if the companies don't release them.</P> <P>The WOW numbers he is actually low. They have well over 2 million accounts worldwide.WoW is a huge sucess, how long will it last with massive numbers is the question since it really is a solo rpg till lvl 60 then do the same 3 raids over and over.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree and disagree with you, Agreement part is WOW numbers will probably lower, it can't stay that huge, the game isn't really that great , huge massive numbers doing the same thing over and over can't last long :smileywink:, pretty solo based rpg yah, making the situation worst. People would argue that if EQ2 had the playerbase WOW did EQ2 would be a  better game...I couldn't argue much there with that.</P> <P>Disagree part is those number aren't pulled up from someones [Removed for Content], although not 100% accurate they are are pretty good estimate, its <EM>almost</EM> known fact.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 PM</span>

[Juli]

I apologize in advance for the long post, this is a bit of a braindump. I've been saying this for months.  The expansion will launch the same day as the changes, never a doubt. The changes are now on test server.  But only the scout and mage changes are complete.  Thats right, priests and fighters are not yet done, but apparently they will be not only completely on the test server, but also 100% tested before september 12th?  Can I get a "yeah, right"? Ya know, I really like EQ2.  I run a guild, I have station all-access, I read the magazine, and I get all stupid-grinny when I kill a new mob for the first time.  I've been playing SOE games since just before kunark era of EQ1, and the worst part of this debacle is that a company I pay for entertainment manages to disappoint me time and again. One of the MAJOR things that these changes were about from the beginning was the huge disparity in priest subclass usefulness.  They have been "working on it" since before LU6.  Now they are telling me that priests still aren't done. I have looked at the priest spell lists on the test server under this combat change, and while I realize that they are not done, the current changes simply make me feel sick.  An across the board reduction in healing, a complete loss of spell utility....I'm beyond words on how angry it makes me.   My hope for this is that the changes not only aren't "done", but they haven't really happened.  Perhaps some changes were made for the sake of balance due to some other changes being done - maybe the increase in Scout DPS required less healing for priests on the test server for the time being in order to maintain some semblance of a playable game until the real changes could hit.  Maybe SOE is setting its playerbase up for disappointment again. I have been really excited about these changes for a long time.  I got worried when they started talking about these huge changes that would "touch pretty much every spell in some way", without asking for ANY input from their playerbase about what we thought were our class's most vital issues.  I guarantee they don't have a designer out there that plays the same character, in the same gear, with the same spell upgrades, the same way I do.  While that may not matter to them, it matters to me.  I know it matters to others as well. Once again...changes will happen, its the way of life, let alone video games.  I'd like to know whether or not *we* the players have input that matters to the life of the game, or whether or not we're still *In their world now*.  I don't need to be in on every decision...frankly I'd rather not.  I don't really want to be a part of a decision making process at all.  But how about consulting us about which decisions carry the most weight with us currently?  Or maybe ask for some input on the class boards regarding our biggest concerns and issues? I've lost a lot of faith in the EQ2 team, not neccessarily because of the changes themselves.  I have faith that people like Moorguard and Blackguard are true gamers at heart, and want this game to be fun as much as we all do.  No, I have lost faith because of the lack of communication.  They have this community summit....and they invite people from forums and websites?  Frankly, people with over 4,000 forum posts don't represent me, or anybody I know for that matter. Where were the casual gamers?  Where was the desired input from most of the playerbase?  If I'm not in a raiding guild, does my opinion about my class not matter?  I'm level 50, in non-raid gear.  Is this new game they are creating going to still be enjoyable for me?  What about for my wife?  Will our duo still work, or will we be neutered to the point of one of us rerolling? Does anyone on the Dev team even care? <div></div>

[FelixDomesticus]

<span><blockquote><hr>Julius wrote: Does anyone on the Dev team even care? <div></div><hr></blockquote>I would say that they do not. Devs are paid for their jobs, but results of their work and especially the quality of it seems to be irrelevant. We have countless of examples of problems that get fixed in one live update and then broken again in next one. It is also interesting to see that fixes which soe "guarantee" to work do not do it in reality. That raises questions about if they test those fixes at all before they put them to live. And do they listen players at all? Even our bug reports? Probably not. Both adventure packs went to live extremely bugged especially for raid part of them. According to forums of those adventure packs SOE was told about problems by test players at least a month before packs went live and SOE fixed none of the reported bugs in that time. Same happened to both adventure packs. SOE seems to be putting lots of resources to development of new features which might be nice, but hardly essential for the game. And bug fixing seems to suffer a lot because of that. Yes, they said that separate teams are developing content and making fixes, but if fixing team has 4 devs and content developers 50 it is still two teams of which one can do very little due to extremely limited resources. They may not be lieing to us about two teams, but they also never told us how they split resources between those teams. If healer changes are still badly under way it either means that they do not have a clue about how to do it or they are lacking resources to do it. Or was it because they started coding ability backbone again too late and could not start real spell tuning until very recently? Who knows...</span><div></div>

[OperationsX]

<P>Fighters and priests are 70-75% of the playerbase, I'm not saying whenever they whined about something it instantly got fixed, cuz that's just not true, like all classes they have had something broken since beginning but they have definately got more attention than MOST mage classes (wizard/warlock exception) and MOST scout classes. You can't argue that.</P> <P>It only makes sense that they would rebalance mage / scouts first. We've been waiting longer since they first announced in LU#3 , Number fricken 3 people that they were going to improve summoners and enchanters and scout dps (later announced in 4 or 5 I think for scouts) </P> <P>Priests were announced in 6, fighter changes were announced near 8.</P> <P>Only makes sense to me, relax you'll get your turn of attention like you always do...</P>

[Juli]

<span><blockquote><hr>OperationsX wrote:<p>Fighters and priests are 70-75% of the playerbase, I'm not saying whenever they whined about something it instantly got fixed, cuz that's just not true, like all classes they have had something broken since beginning but they have definately got more attention than MOST mage classes (wizard/warlock exception) and MOST scout classes. You can't argue that. </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Do you have even one example of a priest change that happened when we complained?  Even one? (and last time I checked, predators are the most played class in the game - still more proof that people are great at pulling statistics out of their hind end)</font> </p> <p>It only makes sense that they would rebalance mage / scouts first. We've been waiting longer since they first announced in LU#3 , Number fricken 3 people that they were going to improve summoners and enchanters and scout dps (later announced in 4 or 5 I think for scouts) </p> <p>Priests were announced in 6, fighter changes were announced near 8.</p> <p>Only makes sense to me, relax you'll get your turn of attention like you always do...</p> <div></div><font color="#ff0000">I had a snappy comeback here, but frankly, your points are both ludicrous and irrelevant, so I don't really see the point in arguing.  Frankly, your argument of 'our turn first' is childish and not helpful.  If you have neither concerns nor feedback about these changes other than "we've been waiting longer", then feel free to leave the feedback to people who have very real concerns about the way the changes are being handled. If you say nothing, we'll assume you're doing just fine.  Silence generally signifies acceptance, or at the very least, submission. </font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>