Thank God for this change

[Zaribani]

<DIV>As a guild leader of a small guild, I wish to thank you, SOE, for planning and implimenting this change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am so happy that everyone in my guild will be able to contribute.  It's been so hard for 10 months telling people they could not be patrons because it would dilute our status.  It's been tough to discourage so many people who only wanted to help the guild.  I will be able to run events for all of the characters in my guild instead of having to give priority to patrons so they can advance the guild's level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our guild has a chance of hitting level 30 without me and a few guildies grinding on boring writs for 5 hours a day for 6 months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The benefits this change will mean for me and my guild are ENORMOUS.  And the wonderful thing is, it hurts no one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Larger guilds may benefit more from this change, but it doesn't hurt the smaller guilds.  Only in the opinion of those people who believe that they are hurt because another group benefits, does this change do any harm.  The "competition" mentality is severely deletarious to the game in general, but those who are of the mindset that their small guild has to "compete" with a larger guild need a reality check.  If the playing field were completely even, smaller guilds would not be able to "compete" due to a deeper resevoire of skill sets in the larger guilds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In closing THANK YOU!  PLEASE MAKE SURE THIS CHANGE GOES LIVE!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Zaribanith</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P/O Bigstorm - 50 Templar, co-leader of Stormguard</DIV> <DIV>Steamfont server</DIV>

[Rene]

<P>I do not hink you really understand the change.  If you are in a small guild, and the players you did not have patroned were not willign to do enough writs to be considered patrons anyway, then they will still be a drag on you.  Only now the people you did have as patrons will have their contributions cut in half ( assuming you had 12 patrons ).  The End result is that if the rest of the guild does not contribute as much GSP as the top 12, then you are going to progress slower.  Only now every player over 12 that is not contributing is not only not advancing you, they are slowing you down, and How do you think that will make you casual players feel?  Are the 150 points from item turns in going to balance out the fact for them that now they will know you are gettign half the points for every writ you and the other very active players do? </P> <P>I think this is bad for all small guilds over 12 members, it makes us choose between game advancement and keeping old friends (who may or may not ever come back ) with your guild name over their heads if they ever do.  And it starts making you examine inactive players much closer.. Hmmm... well he has been off a week.. might as well deguild him.. can retag if he comes back.</P> <P>No Thanks.... The ability to rotate patrons was well suited to this change.  Some if they wanted could use it to advantage.. but I dont care what they do.. I just want to be able to have everyone in my guild contribute as they want to...</P>

[Tockl]

<DIV>Some work needs to be put into designing a new system which allows all to contribute, but not be a burden.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No more random bandaids.  The limb needs to be replaced. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Zaribani]

<P>I understand it.  My guild has 25 members.  I consider it a small guild because it is small, from a server standpoint.  The big guilds on Steamfont have 200 or so members.</P> <P>We don't have Patrons that drag.  We just have more than 12 people who want to contribute, and couldn't because it was inefficient for leveling.</P> <P>Our guild actually has a shot at level 30 with this update, where it really didn't previously.</P>

[Zaribani]

<P>People get so butt-hurt about other groups being able to excel, and would rather complain than get off their own butts to do something to make their own playing experience better.</P> <P>Large guilds will be more powerful?  If "power" is the focus of your playing experience, get out of your small-guild dramaville and join a bigger one.</P> <P>So tired of being PC</P>

[Mor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zaribanith wrote:<p>I understand it.  My guild has 25 members.  I consider it a small guild because it is small, from a server standpoint.  The big guilds on Steamfont have 200 or so members.</p> <p>We don't have Patrons that drag.  We just have more than 12 people who want to contribute, and couldn't because it was inefficient for leveling.</p> <p>Our guild actually has a shot at level 30 with this update, where it really didn't previously.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>If your guild wasn't rotating patrons so that everyone could contribute, then your guild officers should be fired.  There was simply no excuse for this happening after LU#12. </span><div></div>

[Zaribani]

<P>We considered rotating patrons.  But our guild actually has rules and qualifications to becoming a patron.  You earn your patronship.  You're describing an exploit.  We don't want to do that.</P> <P>We don't have to play twinkie if this new update goes live.  </P>

[Mor]

An exploit is taking advantage of something that was unintended.  The ability to rotate patrons was intentional. <div></div>

[Screamin' 1]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zaribanith wrote:<div>As a guild leader of a small guild, I wish to thank you, SOE, for planning and implimenting this change.</div> <div> </div> <div>I am so happy that everyone in my guild will be able to contribute.  It's been so hard for 10 months telling people they could not be patrons because it would dilute our status.  It's been tough to discourage so many people who only wanted to help the guild.  I will be able to run events for all of the characters in my guild instead of having to give priority to patrons so they can advance the guild's level.</div> <div> </div> <div>Our guild has a chance of hitting level 30 without me and a few guildies grinding on boring writs for 5 hours a day for 6 months.</div> <div> </div> <div>The benefits this change will mean for me and my guild are ENORMOUS.  And the wonderful thing is, it hurts no one.</div> <div> </div> <div>Larger guilds may benefit more from this change, but it doesn't hurt the smaller guilds.  Only in the opinion of those people who believe that they are hurt because another group benefits, does this change do any harm.  The "competition" mentality is severely deletarious to the game in general, but those who are of the mindset that their small guild has to "compete" with a larger guild need a reality check.  If the playing field were completely even, smaller guilds would not be able to "compete" due to a deeper resevoire of skill sets in the larger guilds.</div> <div> </div> <div>In closing THANK YOU!  PLEASE MAKE SURE THIS CHANGE GOES LIVE!!!!</div> <div> </div> <div>~Zaribanith</div> <div> </div> <div>P/O Bigstorm - 50 Templar, co-leader of Stormguard</div> <div>Steamfont server</div><hr></blockquote>I am not sure that you have considered all of the implications of this change. This is not an issue of larger guilds leveling faster. In fact, most of the criticism of this change I have read here does not address that issue much at all. The change does not "allow" all who want to contribute to do so, the change *forces* everyone in small guilds to contribute, or dilute the contribution of others. It is no different than if you had made all of the guildmates who are currently discouraged because they cannot contribute, patrons anyway. In either situation, they will be slowing down the guild leveling pace.  If I may say so without offense, In my estimation in looking at your guild roster, this change will cut your leveling speed in 1/2. Your divisor will now be 24, not 12. But your top 4 patrons have 80% of the contributed GSP. So all this will do is effectively cut those 4 patron's future contributions in 1/2. I agree that it is nice to not have to explain to folks why they are hurting the guild by becoming patrons, I have been down that road too many times, and very seldom do folks understand it, even when it is plainly spelled out with math and everything. <span>:smileywink:  But this change does not solve that problem at all, for guilds of average size. </span> </span><div></div>

[Zaribani]

<P>Q, thank you for that response!</P> <P>I have thought about it.  You're right, we have a few people who've contributed 80% between them.</P> <P>I believe, though, that the change will foster a greater desire to do more for the guild, as it will give us a chance to do more together.</P> <DIV>I will also be able to work on status quests and writs with my alts, thus giving more status to the guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm also considering cleaning house of those who haven't been on for a while.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do have a lot of people who want to contribute greatly.  One thing you're not seeing on the roster is that we've lost some people recently (and 6 guild levels too).  We're rebuilding now.  Many people want to be part of that process, and so few can under the current system without gimping the guild.</DIV>

[Screamin' 1]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Zaribanith wrote:<p>We considered rotating patrons.  But our guild actually has rules and qualifications to becoming a patron.  You earn your patronship.  You're describing an exploit.  We don't want to do that.</p> <p>We don't have to play twinkie if this new update goes live.  </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>One of the problems with the exisitng system (although less so now that patrons can leave w/o hurting the guild) is that many folks look at patronage as an honor, as something to strive for. Yet it is not reasonable to do so, given that it makes little sense to have more that 12 patrons that don't contribute a lot.  Under the exisitng system, being a patron is more of a curse than something to look forward to. <span>:smileysurprised: But most folks don't look at it that way. And most guilds don't either. With messages to guild chat about all the wonderful stuff patrons are doing, how can they? I like the idea of everyone contributing to the guild, I LOVE the idea of counting accounts, not characters. But the current solution on test will hurt most guilds the size of ours. </span> BTW, rotating patrons cannot be fairly said to be an exploit. It was made clear to SOE before the recent change went live, that this was going to be possible to do, and would in fact allow guilds to level very fast. Their response was to put a 1 week timer on new patrons. Clearly, the one week timer was SOE's solution to prevent an exploit. Therefore, using this feature that SOE put in with full knowledge of its implications cannot be an exploit. FWIW, my guild is not large enough to rotate patrons, and will not be taking advantage of this feature for a long time, if ever. I am not defending the practice simply because I want to do it with a clear conscience, but because it is fair game. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Screamin' 103 on <span class=date_text>07-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:24 PM</span>

[Screamin' 1]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zaribanith wrote:<p>Q, thank you for that response!</p> <p>I have thought about it.  You're right, we have a few people who've contributed 80% between them.</p> <p>I believe, though, that the change will foster a greater desire to do more for the guild, as it will give us a chance to do more together.</p> <div>I will also be able to work on status quests and writs with my alts, thus giving more status to the guild. <font color="#66ccff">Yes, this is a HUGE perk of the change, and one I am a big fan of. I suggested that patronage be account based, not character based, a while back. (I am sure I was not the first to do so, but I did come to the suggestion independently) and it is great that SOE listened. </font> </div> <div> </div> <div>I'm also considering cleaning house of those who haven't been on for a while.</div> <div> </div> <div>We do have a lot of people who want to contribute greatly.  One thing you're not seeing on the roster is that we've lost some people recently (and 6 guild levels too).  We're rebuilding now.  Many people want to be part of that process, and so few can under the current system without gimping the guild. <span><font color="#66ccff">I am sorry to hear about your guild losing levels. One thing that is not clear in the test release notes is whether guilds will continue to retain status when characters leave. I also  think it would help a lot of the divisor was not based on every account, but on every other account, and did not cap at 24. This would help level the playing field a bit among active and less active players. A guild with 24 very active players would level faster than one with 12 very active and 12 casual players, but at least the guild with 12/12 would not be slowed down compared to how fast they are leveling currently. Maybe have the first 12 accounts count toward the divisor, and then 1 out of 2 after that. That is another option. </font></span></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Zaribani]

<DIV>I think the new system would at least be more fun for the guild at large, even if it's not the most economical solution.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since most of the updates they put on the test server tend to make it Live, I think at this point, SOE might not impliment suggestions before it goes live, but I do like the idea of scaling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens.</DIV>

[Screamin' 1]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zaribanith wrote:<div></div> <div>I think the new system would at least be more fun for the guild at large, even if it's not the most economical solution.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>For certain, it takes the pressure away from the leaders who keep having to tell guildmates they cannot be patrons. I absolutely hate having to do that. I just hope they can come up with something that is economical, and does take away that rather unpleasant aspect of guild management. </span><div></div>

[Mor]

<P>Screamin' there is no reason to not allow anyone who wants to contribute to not contribute under the current system.  None.  </P>

[Tockl]

<P>But there has got to be a way to allow everyone to contribute, without forcing them to feel they have to.</P> <P>For small guilds under 25, they will feel forced to.</P>

[Mor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zaribanith wrote:<BR> <P>Q, thank you for that response!</P> <P>I have thought about it.  You're right, we have a few people who've contributed 80% between them.</P> <P>I believe, though, that the change will foster a greater desire to do more for the guild, as it will give us a chance to do more together.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>How?  What is preventing you from doing that now?  If 24 people do the quest, you'll get more guild status than if 12 people do.  There is simply no mathematical reason for this.</FONT></P> <DIV>I will also be able to work on status quests and writs with my alts, thus giving more status to the guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff>There is no reason to not do this now.  In fact, unless your guild is large, the proposed system will cost you.  In the current system, your patron status will only count if your alt is active.  In the proposed system your alt will count even if you haven't contributed this week.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do have a lot of people who want to contribute greatly.  One thing you're not seeing on the roster is that we've lost some people recently (and 6 guild levels too).  We're rebuilding now.  Many people want to be part of that process, and so few can under the current system without gimping the guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff>Let me repeat: there is no "gimping" the guild under the current system.  24 active patrons generate more status points than 12.  Do the math!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff><BR></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[missionarymarr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morie wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zaribanith wrote:<BR> <P>Q, thank you for that response!</P> <P>I have thought about it.  You're right, we have a few people who've contributed 80% between them.</P> <P>I believe, though, that the change will foster a greater desire to do more for the guild, as it will give us a chance to do more together.</P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>How?  What is preventing you from doing that now?  If 24 people do the quest, you'll get more guild status than if 12 people do.  There is simply no mathematical reason for this.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>You are assuming a lot in your statement. You are assuming that the patrons will all be active in the old system.</FONT></P> <DIV>I will also be able to work on status quests and writs with my alts, thus giving more status to the guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff>There is no reason to not do this now.  In fact, unless your guild is large, the proposed system will cost you.  In the current system, your patron status will only count if your alt is active.  In the proposed system your alt will count even if you haven't contributed this week.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No his alt won't in the new system this will actually benefit him more potentially allowing him to get 4 times the XP for each Heritage quest for his guild. Remember the divisor is based on accounts now not characters. Therefore even if he only does a few heritage quests with an alt it would add to the guild more in the new system then if he made the alt a patron in the old.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do have a lot of people who want to contribute greatly.  One thing you're not seeing on the roster is that we've lost some people recently (and 6 guild levels too).  We're rebuilding now.  Many people want to be part of that process, and so few can under the current system without gimping the guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff>Let me repeat: there is no "gimping" the guild under the current system.  24 active patrons generate more status points than 12.  Do the math!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccffff><BR></FONT> This is true although most guilds don't realize it. If of course all 24 are active.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Cuz]

Morie I believe the current patron system was put in place to facilitate the integration of the one on test. I don't think it was meant to ever last more than the transition period.

[gna]

<DIV>I think we have 2 posts for the same Subject. other have more replys just see here :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=22965" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=22965</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by gnaus on <span class=date_text>08-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:28 PM</span>

[Dorma]

<DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>This change stinks,  it doesn't give members a choice,  it forces them to be patrons,  and not every member wants to be a patron or has the time and committment to contribute on a regular basis.  For those members that did want to be patrons,  it only slows them down by adding to the division from the people that didn't want to be patrons.  When this goes live,  we'll be kicking old freinds of many years that came from EQ 1 also,  because they haven't logged in in a month.  Some of our members are even overseas on military duty,  and have been inactive for some time,  now this change is going to force us to remove members that are inactive because they are dragging down guild experience.  Since live update 12,  every member could contribute to the guild if they wanted to by rotating patrons or going above the 12 patrons number,  the only thing stopping all members from contributing right now is guild leadership.  IMHO,  the system is not broken as it is,  it could be tweaked,  maybe make rotation times longer,  but it is not broken.  Everyone can contribute as it stands if they want to.  This change will force all members to contribute,  and drag down your current patrons that already contribute regularly.  SOE,  get your head out of your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot],  this change is not needed.</FONT> </DIV>

[Amocus]

You know, this change doesn't force anyone to do anything. I can't believe the whining on this board. If you are in a casual guild, leveling the guild has never been a big concern. It wasn't then, and it wont' be now, so who cares. If your casual guild is that concerned about leveling the guiild, then it's not nearly as casual as you think. I seriously doubt that suddenly causal guilds are going to start kicking people out because they aren't doing writs and heritages. If they do, then they should be sued for false advertising because, THAT IS NOT CASUAL. Here is a definition of casual from Meriam Webster <i>casus </i>fall, chance -- more at <a href="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=case" target=_blank><font size="-1">CASE</font></a> <b>1</b> <b>:</b> subject to, resulting from, or occurring by chance <b>2 a</b> <b>:</b> occurring without regularity <b>: <a href="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=occasional" target=_blank><font size="-1">OCCASIONAL</font></a></b> <b>b</b> <b>:</b> employed for irregular periods <b>3 a</b> <b>:</b> feeling or showing little concern <b>: <a href="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=nonchalant" target=_blank><font size="-1">NONCHALANT</font></a></b> <b>b </b>(1) Let see, number 2..occurs without regularity..(leveling the guild) Number 3... again..most casual players will show little concern with leveling hte guild. There are some of us.who even felt (heresy) that the whole guild leveling thing was stupid and divisive right from the start. <div></div>

[Spag]

<DIV>This will negatively affect the small guilds regardless of their playsyle.  Whether they care or not should not be the issue.  In my case, we care.  We are a small guild of players, many of which have been trying to level our guild.  We are a tight group and don't simply recruit any player we run across, which tends to keep our total players low.  This does not mean we don't care about leveling, we simply don't want to [Removed for Content] ourselves out to do so.  Now I like this change, but it needs some tweaking.  If it goes into affect the way it is, it will take us longer to level as as it did under the old system.  We have friends and family members that we like to play with, in the guild, but have not been working towards guild status, and they did not have to as they were not patrons.  Now in order to be as efficient as we are under the patron system, we either have to force them to put up GSP, or remove them from the guild.  Just because there are casual players in the guild, does not mean the entire guild is casual.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They need to make the divisor a % of the number of unique accounts.  Anything so its not 100%.</DIV>

[Zaribani]

<DIV>Small guilds will benefit.  The denominator will now be smaller for guilds under 12 people, thus allowing them to contribute MORE status.  Also, you have three or more alts from what your signature says.  All of them will be able to contribute status now, without affecting the denominator.  Each one will be able to get heritage quests and contribute the huge amount of status those quests yield into the guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your guild has over 12 accounts, you're still well off.  This means the additional members will be able to farm status points now as well, and your guild will see the benefit.  If it has well over 24 accounts (Which I doubt, cause you said you're small), you're really well off because you have a large number of people to earn status, and the denominator is cut off at 24.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You mention you have casual members or inactives who earn less status.  Just weigh the benefit of having those people in the guild against the desire of your guild to level.  If you're a tight knit group, eat the extra few percent cut in status points, and have an enjoyable time playing.  If the goal of your guild is to level, then the people who are not earning status are going against your guild goals, and causing others to not have fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think of it as an opportunity, not a setback.  No one has to worry about being efficient now.  Everyone can contribute, and with the status items dropping, it's even easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zaribanith </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rene]

<P>"You know, this change doesn't force anyone to do anything. I can't believe the whining on this board."</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Not everyone giving an objection to what we see as a flawed game mechanic, before it goes live, is Whining, thank you very much.  You characterizing it as that, is counter-productive, and contributes nothing to the discussion.</FONT><BR><BR>"If you are in a casual guild, leveling the guild has never been a big concern. It wasn't then, and it wont' be now, so who cares. If your casual guild is that concerned about leveling the guiild, then it's not nearly as casual as you think.<BR><BR>I seriously doubt that suddenly causal guilds are going to start kicking people out because they aren't doing writs and heritages. If they do, then they should be sued for false advertising because, THAT IS NOT CASUAL. "</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I care about leveling my guild, so do about 7 other people in it, many of our casual playing friends who are in the guild without playing time etc... do not.  WE are a casual guild.  WE do not have any requirements for membership, do not have mandatory play times, do not raid, no mandatory anything.  If this change goes into effect half of our players will now <U>have</U> to start contributing GSP or slow down what the rest of us are trying to accomplish.  So while you are entitled to your opinion, you are presenting it as fact.   You focused on just one word.  How about look up small family oriented involving long time friends with a mix of playstyles, desire and time.  <BR></FONT><BR><BR>"There are some of us.who even felt (heresy) that the whole guild leveling thing was stupid and divisive right from the start."</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>If you genuinely feel that way, then why post here at all?  I think this is an issue of great concern, and involving goals and playstyle for quite a few people.  If you thing guild leveling is stupid, then letting the people here express their dislike of a change to the system should not bother you at all.  I am sorry if this comes off as confrontational, Just that people telling me what I concerned about is stupid and to stop whining, just puts pee pee in my cornflakes.</FONT></P> <P>Edit: Zaribanith, you started this thread with a a pretty clear opinion.  I don't really think you have understood peoples concerns.  You may have read them, but not directed the energy to what most small / medium guilds problem is with this proposed change.  I am not vain enough to think I can change your mind as it seems you are determined to keep your opinion, just changing how you say it.   What you would like is for all of the guilds with player numbers 12+24 to be forced to patron all members ( which is in essence what is happening)   because this gives them the opportuinity to contribute.  They Have had that opportuinity from day 1.  If I had 24 people in my guild now who wanted to do writs and contribute, we would have them all be patrons.  You said a similar thing before.. that you like the change because now all could help.. Well they all could before, but you only had 12 patrons in your guild because that is the most efficient.   Sorry, but that just does nto make sense to me.  Under this new system anyone who cannot, or does not care to contribute is a hinderence.. with no inbetween.  It does not leave open the option of a small- medium sized guild over 12 members to be guilded with people who may not share all the same interests.  This system to me, is more along the lines of what is divisive.  </P> <P>This does help guilds with less than 12 Unique accounts ( active, inactive, peopel on breaks etc).. What I would characterize as <U>very</U> small guilds.. but I have not seen them complaining that they have been leveling too slow.</P><p>Message Edited by Rene on <span class=date_text>08-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 PM</span>

[A]

<DIV>IMO what should be obvious to SOE by now, from this thread and others, is the main problem with this new system.  Its not guilds leveling too fast or too slow.  It is guilds having to do  more work for the same rewards prior to update 13.  I lead a small/medium sized guild of about 30 unique accounts and about 50 total members inc alts.  In my guild I allowed anyone to be a patron. All they had to do was ask with the understanding that in doing so they commited themselves to helping the guild progress as much as they could.  In our case this was 16 people.  No complaints for the 14 or so who chose not to, that is fine with me.  And after this patch it will still be fine with me.  I will boot no one and I will not complain to anyone either.  The only difference will be the 16 who chose to progress the guild will be doing it at a rate of status/24 instead of status/16.  This is the question you should ask SOE... Is this the fair and proper thing to do?  And by reading this thread and several like it, it is obvious my guild is only one of many in this situation.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aaz on <span class=date_text>08-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:19 PM</span>

[K'aldar]

<div></div>sorry if this was already said, didn't have enough time to completely read each post, but something it seems you don't realize is this change also lets everyone do more heritage quests for guild xp.  i have 5 toons, if they're all in the same guild, now instead of getting 22 HQ's done for the guild i can now get 110 done. (granted it would take some hard work to do that many, but its a change from writ grinding anyway). just wanted to add that to the mix. Edit: forgot to add that yes i know you can already do this, but it seems to me the penalty for doing so would be less. this would encourage ppl to have more alts as the more alts you have it doesn't hurt the guild whatsoever. 1 toon in guild is the same as 10 as long as they're on the same acct. <div></div><p>Message Edited by K'aldar on <span class=date_text>08-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:59 PM</span>

[Spag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zaribanith wrote:<BR> <DIV>Small guilds will benefit.  The denominator will now be smaller for guilds under 12 people, thus allowing them to contribute MORE status.  Also, you have three or more alts from what your signature says.  All of them will be able to contribute status now, without affecting the denominator.  Each one will be able to get heritage quests and contribute the huge amount of status those quests yield into the guild.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I understand what you are saying, and yes I actually have 4 alts, 2 are crafting only toons at lvl 7 or 8, and I have a merchant toon at lvl 15 that I leveled up to get SoW (6 strongboxes make you walk slow), and helped a few low level guildies with.  Out of my two main toons, I really only adventure with my Warden.  My Warlock is not a patron, and had done maybe 1 or 2 writs early on before I put him on the back burner.  He is basically craft only as well.  Any and all adventuring time I have, goes into my warden.  So yes, out of 5 toons, 1 earns GSP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zaribanith wrote:<BR> <DIV>If your guild has over 12 accounts, you're still well off.  This means the additional members will be able to farm status points now as well, and your guild will see the benefit.  If it has well over 24 accounts (Which I doubt, cause you said you're small), you're really well off because you have a large number of people to earn status, and the denominator is cut off at 24.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>These additional players are not doing status points.  Our 12 patron has put up about 5 writs in about a month.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zaribanith wrote:<BR> <DIV>You mention you have casual members or inactives who earn less status.  Just weigh the benefit of having those people in the guild against the desire of your guild to level.  If you're a tight knit group, eat the extra few percent cut in status points, and have an enjoyable time playing.  If the goal of your guild is to level, then the people who are not earning status are going against your guild goals, and causing others to not have fun.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This is the real problem, is now we have to choose between trying to maintain the rate in which we were leveling, and keeping our friends/family in the guild.  Of course having friends and familiy in the guild is going to win out, and as a result we are going to be leveling slower as a result.  I have thought this through, and this is what I am trying to avoid, and would like to find a different solution.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that this is going to cause smaller guilds to level even more slowly is a major flaw in my opinion.  This change will be a major benefit to large guilds, slight benefit to medium guilds, detriment to small guilds, and small benefit to very small and new guilds (less than 12 unique accounts.</DIV> <DIV><BR>If you make the argument that a large guild should level faster than a small guild, because they have more players, thats fine.  But with that thinking, should not a medium and small guild be able to level faster than a very small guild (less than 12 players)?<BR></DIV>

[Keegant]

<DIV>That is where I think many people have this change underestimated. Alts. I think that the casual guilds will benifit from this change due to their alts. You say that you dont play your alts for anything but crafting, but I see alot of players, especially the casual ones that will pickup and play an alt for a few days. If they finish a heritage with that alt, then they just got the guild more xp then if their main grinded on writs, which a casual player is not going to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am taking a wait and see, but this is one of the bigest benifits of this change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I have said on my thread, I disagree with the cap where it is and something needs to be done about inactives, so don't flame me on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also as I have said on my thread I disagree with using the patron rotation exploit to get the same effect as what I mentioned above, as I feel the change was put in place to keep a guild from losing xp when a player goes inactive or leaves the guild, not so that a guild can rotate in the bigest contributers for that week.</DIV>

[Phat]

<DIV>The only question I have is this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does this effect ALL guild members?  Even Initiates?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are a small guild (14 players about 10 accounts).  We are striving to attain guild rank, we are at 9 now and our highest level is 31 so we are pretty much right at the beginning.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do have 4 people in the guild that are alts of other people not in our guild (people we met along the way that when they are playing they like to stop by and say hi) but we have not "promoted" them past Initiate, our lowest rank and technically not a "Member" in our guild...read more of an Ambassitor than Member.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will they could against our total?</DIV>

[Trei]

Since the last update, there are now much easier and more convenient ways for everyone to earn GSP for the guild, namely the new status loot players can turn in. Rather than to see those as 'independent' or seperate changes, they should all be considered together as prelude to the new guild leveling system. Unless your guild members cannot even be bothered to do a minor thing as turn in accumulated status loot acquired by hunting normally, I don't really see much negative impact on leveling speed of guilds after the update vs say... a month or two ago. I expect quite the opposite infact, regardless of guild size. Status loot do add up, and will be infinitely more so when you have your whole guild be able to contribute. <div></div>

[Mor]

Yes, Phates.  They will. <div></div>