It isn't about EZ vs HARD it's about RISK

[bigmak20]

Many threads on EZ vs Hard and how it should be. I think maybe the point is being missed. Those who say the game is getting too easy.... I hear you I agree BUT don't necessarily think solo/easy content should go away. When I rolled my first toon I had to worry about getting killed almost anywhere I went.  Now with my alts I have to SEARCH for places to feel threatened.  If I was not a risk taker (hunting orange) it would be EASY to NEVER get killed.  That's TOO EASY. BUT.... Before the hardcore vs. casual vs solo vs grouped debate starts ... it isn't TOO EASY or TOO MUCH SOLO that's the actual problem. <b>IT'S THE LACK OF RISK.</b> You can go nearly ANYWHERE and simply train the MoBs without fear of dying.   ESPECIALLY if you wear plate but even my alt casters can do it... spent some time seeing how many MoBs I could aggro the other night w/o dying... about a hundred or so running in circles thru orc camps although I think there must be a cap on it less then that... so I  was running in circles to constantly re-aggro. THAT IS ONE SERIOUSLY DUMBED DOWN GAME.  When it is one hundred percent plausible to go through this game as an adventurer and NEVER DIE the game has been dumbed down WAY TOO MUCH.  I swear... I could easily never die if I just hunted solo green/blue cons. SO.. the solution?  Give those that like it EZ the solo MoBs they want... but for the love of god bring back some risk. KEEP some group content in the overland zones.  Some obnoxiously tough meanies you have to keep a lookout for to keep from getting totally plastered.  And make it so you can't train through EVERYTHING.  I train... I will likely be annoyed the first few times I try to simply run through a zone and get totally wasted.  BUT... GOOD.  I want some RISK.  Not necessarily less solo content... but RISKIER zones.  The thrill of the fight... a sense of accomplishment to sneak through that area without getting killed... etc Was leveling an alt in Oakmyst last night... the only thing I had to give the slightest thought was whether or not Grubbdigger had spawned.  Give the noobs some challenge and they might actually ENJOY PLAYING  the game instead of being all whiny when they suddenly have that challenge then quit. Bring back the risk! <div></div>

[Ebeta]

<DIV>Don't confuse a level 50 player playing a Twink with an actual new player.  Imagine having never played the game before and being in those zones.  Your not going to be riding a +30 mount or know the terrain well enough to run away from a train of mobs.  I agree with part of what your saying for higher level zones but not the starter zones.  </DIV>

[Ponos]

<DIV>I've seen at least one named epic in every zone I play in, or at least a named heroic who's tough as nails (Chomper and Bloodtalon to name but two).  There's always challenge if you want, especially now that:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A) Full access to the world has been given regardless of character level.</DIV> <DIV>B) The new adventure pack: Splitpaw Saga works to match your level (20 -50)</DIV> <DIV>C) Desert of Flames is due out soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And even if there isn't risk EVERYWHERE, there's still the fun of finding RARES, getting mob drops and coin, chewing the fat in chat channels, etc.</DIV> <DIV>I would consider myself a smart player, always trying to better my tactics for whichever type mob I'm currently working, and I still die.  Sometimes often. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Phylicus on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

[Garlicyesterday]

<DIV>My main concern....if you know how to do it and ( everyone prolly knows ) you can ALWAYS run away from mobs and never die from 1 to 50 if u want , way too easy to run away from mobs when ur near death... /yell , use jboots , pathfinding , sprint , sow , horse ..etc , no mobs will catch you and anyway 5secs after ur running away mobs give up ...let me laugh at this , they are bears , wolfs , lizards etc whatever mobs and they give up !!??? rofl</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway my only 2cents guys</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Varkas 50th Paladin of Crushbone </DIV>

[Sabbi]

Simple solution to make everyone happy: Make all zones available in 3 options. Solo (single mobs, groups of arrow down mobs, occassional 1 arrow up), 2+ Group or more difficult solo (few solos, regular groups of mobs, 2 group of 1 ^ and some ^^ mobs) and last but not least Heroic ( groups of 4-6 mobs, lets get challenging and have groups of 3-1 arrow up groups, lots of ^^ mobs, ^^ mobs with friends and even toss in some ^^^ mobs). Alot of work for SOE but it gives everyone no matter what they're play style the type of play they want. Feel like soloing today, zone into the solo zone, want to get a full group together and test yourself choose the heroic. It certainly beats every zone being instanced so you only have contact  with other players in cities. There is alot of risk and challenge if you put yourself out there to find it, problem is alot of people wont or dont want to put themselves in that kind of situation or you learn the zones so well you know which way to go and how to get from point A to point B without getting aggro. I dont have a problem with starter zones being easier and less riskier, it's fun watching people running from Grubdigger or the giant grab in Sunken City. As a new character we dont want them to get frightened off from the game just because the starting zones are too hard. Once you hit Antonica and the Commonlands and the other outlying zones, the risks gets bigger. There are some areas where it should be more challenging to get through. Look at the run from the Antonica/TS zone to the dock. What's going to hit you on the way there, the leg biters? Big deal. Now run from the Commonlands/Nek zone to the dock. Now there's a challenge in not getting smacked silly by owl bears and shillers, not to mention the wandering guard and his buddies. Yes you can outrun them but it certainly is more of a thrill than the pansy run through Thundering Steppes. Stationary mobs are the problem. Mobs all have their appropriate sections of the zone. They need to wander more. Look at EQ and East Karana, the Griffs used to wander a good portion of the zone, not just sit in their places in the fields like TS. You always had to watch your back when you went to the Gypsy camp. They need to make the orcs wander the WHOLE zone, the gnolls need to stop standing around drinking coffee by the campfire and get out and explore. Have an occassional Lamia or Nightblood drop by the dock/beach area of Enchanted Lands to say hi to the new arrivals. That's the kind of things we need. Elements of surprise. Add a few more traps to areas. Yeah it's a pain in the neck sometimes to try to get past the sullon gate without having the orcs jump you and chase you to the DFC bridge but it's stuff like that that adds a little more risk. Just dont make the traps happen in the same place every single time, move them around, make them random. You'll never know what's going to jump you or where. After LU12 though I have to say that it certainly was alot riskier trying to get to Permafrost now that the giants see through invis, not to mention having those rat assassins popping out from nowhere and attacking you. That's the kind of stuff we need everyday, not just during a live event. <div></div>

[Andre]

If you want danger-look around in game you will for sure found somthing like Harclave without harclave buff or somthing like that BUT not try to change world where live/play another people. Even if you manage to get satisfactory changes for you you will be demolished from those who will be unhappy. >50% of people dont like changes that made their life hardly-WE have it not so easy in RL and this is a game.

[bigmak20]

Yep; more roamers would be a a big help IMO. ... and playing alt on different server... not twinked.    INSANE what T2 adepts are going for 6 to 20 gp for a T2 spell!  Needless to say... all App2s for me (sugar daddy is on a different server and can't mail coin across servers!). Kinda fun starting from scratch vis-a-vis getting geared up.  Would like more risk in the zones tho! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[CanisLupos]

<P>Bigmak...</P> <P>Well written, well said, and you hit the nail on the head in my opinion.</P> <DIV>:smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Erent]

Very very well said, I miss the days of getting smacked up for wandering too far off the paths ;p <div></div>

[Vashn]

<DIV>Again we have people saying what THEY LIKE..</DIV> <DIV><BR>What YOU like is NOT going to ALWAYS be what I LIKE dude...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have a situation where young kids or people that like to spend hours and hours and hours</DIV> <DIV>on a single MMOG need it harder..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And people that have other things to do in life than spend mega hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The solution is to make a very hard risk vs reward server and MOVE THE people</DIV> <DIV>currently complaining about EQ2 being to easy to that NEW server...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a reason when you buy stuff in the real world it's not all the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a very diverse user base. From disabled people to 18 year olds that drink 12 pack of soda and get</DIV> <DIV>wired all night grinding xp...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>THERE IS NO ONE USER MAN... can't you get that?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Risk where you get killed and xp debit with your 1 hour a day that you get to play eq2.. then you spend 30-45</DIV> <DIV>minutes getting back xp from 1 death. Then when you log you have what 15 minutes or 5 minutes of good</DIV> <DIV>and 55 minutes of bad. That's how it used to be for casual players before some of the stuff was toned down.</DIV>

[ganjookie]

You dont lose XP with debt....debt isnt even a concern in this game!  You can kill a couple of creatures to get your debt gone, or you can log and play with another character while debt dissappears by itself.   If you play the xp debt card, your silly <div></div>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR>You dont lose XP with debt....debt isnt even a concern in this game!  <BR><BR>You can kill a couple of creatures to get your debt gone, or you can log and play with another character while debt dissappears by itself.   If you play the xp debt card, your silly <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Wrong.  UNless you have two accounts.. debt does not go away if you log on another char on that account.. Unless it was changed recently.  If you want to put yourself in risk why don't you as a player try the harder things... more to this game then outdoor zones</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:24 PM</span>

[Kreat]

Borekai hit the nail on the head. I remember having way more fun in the game when zones had a mix of solo vs group mobs. I actually had to look around for adds, think about how I pulled, where I pulled, and how to keep my group safe.These days, I just generally pank the mobs to crap, sure, you have tougher zones, but really, the only places that are challenging are raid zones, everything else is more or less a piece of cake.Yes, new players have it tougher then us who can make alts and twink them, but have you seen places like the Commonlands and Antonica lately? I doubt people group much at all since most mobs are solo, there aren't many places you can get a group and go for heroics at early levels.The game has been dumbed down a whole lot due to people wanting to solo. In fact, people grouping are the minority now, especially due to places like Harclave.

[Croa]

I don't know about that "can always run" idea.  No amount of speed buffs can help you when the mob roots you as you're trying to run.  I finished the jboots at lvl38, but it came very close to dying during the last run. I was running plenty fast, but when running through  an update point some lizards stunned me then beat me down to about 10% health in a matter of two seconds. But anyway, you should be able to run. No one wants to continually die every time they try to task risks and fight new things. <div></div>

[Tockl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR>You dont lose XP with debt....debt isnt even a concern in this game!  <BR><BR>You can kill a couple of creatures to get your debt gone, or you can log and play with another character while debt dissappears by itself.   If you play the xp debt card, your silly <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Wrong.  UNless you have two accounts.. debt does not go away if you log on another char on that account.. Unless it was changed recently.  If you want to put yourself in risk why don't you as a player try the harder things... more to this game then outdoor zones</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <SPAN class=date_text>07-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:24 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Incorrect, sir.  XP debt goes away no matter what you are doing.  In fact, XP debt is a bane of hardcore players far more than it is casual.<BR>

[Nibiuno]

I ran a naked level 6 scout from Antonica to Permafrost without getting killed.  I got hit once for 79 points of damage by a skeleton; the giants and spiders didnt keep up with me sprinting.  If that isnt too easy, then I dont know what is.  Seriously SoE, how babyish do you want this game? <div></div>

[Silvo]

<DIV>You can always make your own risk. Fight harder mobs or play and don't run away or escape. Play hardcore style and if the character dies delete it and start over on newbie island. That way you get a high risk and can fell it is dangerous and somene else can play at their level too.</DIV>

[Tockl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silvorn wrote:<BR> <DIV>You can always make your own risk. Fight harder mobs or play and don't run away or escape. Play hardcore style and if the character dies delete it and start over on newbie island. That way you get a high risk and can fell it is dangerous and somene else can play at their level too.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I submit:  Play blindfolded.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tag.</DIV>

[dejahtho]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tockley wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Silvorn wrote: <div>You can always make your own risk. Fight harder mobs or play and don't run away or escape. Play hardcore style and if the character dies delete it and start over on newbie island. That way you get a high risk and can fell it is dangerous and somene else can play at their level too.</div> <hr> </blockquote>I submit:  Play blindfolded.</div> <div> </div> <div>Tag.</div><hr></blockquote>i submit:  change mouse hands. </span> <div></div>

[Ponos]

<P>I submit: Play with your feet.</P> <P>Tag!</P>

[PhourZwanZig]

<DIV>Seeing how everyones submiting Ideas.. Heres one..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Play w/ Monitor Off..  (now thats a challenge)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileywink:</DIV>

[Laedyil]

<DIV>Here is an idea:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If all the mobs in an area scaled to whether your in a group or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So creatures con a colour and whether they are aggro or not but the encounter only sets itself as group x3, solo, heroic - whatever after 1) it has engaged you or 2) you have engaged the encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That would make it do-able by everyone but there would be a lot of risk - think about running through a zone in a group with everything heroic and angry - arg :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kutark]

<DIV>Here is the solution, bring Mistmoore back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're absolutely right, there are a lot of pansy [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] zones in the game.  I remember screwing around in Mistmoore back when i was a lowly 53 pally and still getting handled by the trains.  That zone struck the fear of god into me even when the mobs were half my level <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously though.  You bring up some very valid points.</DIV>

[p1ut0nium]

<DIV> <DIV>Risk where you get killed and xp debit with your 1 hour a day that you get to play eq2.. then you spend 30-45</DIV> <DIV>minutes getting back xp from 1 death. Then when you log you have what 15 minutes or 5 minutes of good</DIV> <DIV>and 55 minutes of bad. That's how it used to be for casual players before some of the stuff was toned down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG...does anyone else find this excuse a little repetitive and self-defeating?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The constant complaint of the "casual" player is that they don't have enough time to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Umm....does anyone else find it strange that the people who don't have enough time to play are even playing at all?  And that the rest of us who DO have time to play have to suffer the consequences?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's like going out to play baseball with your friends and having only 2 bases you have to run to score because a few of your friends only have 20 minutes to play!</DIV></DIV>

[nellerboy20]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> p1ut0nium wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Risk where you get killed and xp debit with your 1 hour a day that you get to play eq2.. then you spend 30-45</DIV> <DIV>minutes getting back xp from 1 death. Then when you log you have what 15 minutes or 5 minutes of good</DIV> <DIV>and 55 minutes of bad. That's how it used to be for casual players before some of the stuff was toned down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG...does anyone else find this excuse a little repetitive and self-defeating?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The constant complaint of the "casual" player is that they don't have enough time to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Umm....does anyone else find it strange that the people who don't have enough time to play are even playing at all?  And that the rest of us who DO have time to play have to suffer the consequences?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's like going out to play baseball with your friends and having only 2 bases you have to run to score because a few of your friends only have 20 minutes to play!</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And do you realize that a vast portion of EQ2 players are casual players? SoE listens to casual players because they pay the exact same amount of cash you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you're finding things too easy to do, by all means, go solo a heroic instance somewhere.</DIV>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tockley wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR>You dont lose XP with debt....debt isnt even a concern in this game!  <BR><BR>You can kill a couple of creatures to get your debt gone, or you can log and play with another character while debt dissappears by itself.   If you play the xp debt card, your silly <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Wrong.  UNless you have two accounts.. debt does not go away if you log on another char on that account.. Unless it was changed recently.  If you want to put yourself in risk why don't you as a player try the harder things... more to this game then outdoor zones</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <SPAN class=date_text>07-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:24 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Incorrect, sir.  XP debt goes away no matter what you are doing.  In fact, XP debt is a bane of hardcore players far more than it is casual.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then it was changed recently.  I used to log on an alt to sell my stuff back when you had to sell with a person.. would log back on after sleeping and going to work,.. still had the same exact dept </P> <P> </P> <P>While yes it is easy to run around a zone with a speed buff.. it was easy to do this in eq1 as well.  Matter of fact a bard could train dragons all over the wastes just for fun.  When it comes to risk you can find things out there to do.  For example go do icy digs.  Proly the hardest zone in the game for a single group and its here to stay.</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <SPAN class=date_text>07-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:10 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 AM</span>

[Ponos]

If I remember correctly, the XP dept "degrades" while playing, but completely disappears after 3 days regardless.

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Phylicus wrote:<BR>If I remember correctly, the XP dept "degrades" while playing, but completely disappears after 3 days regardless. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats spirit shards

[Ponos]

Ah, yes!  You're right!  Tombs of Night is the only place that ever kept one.  That place is scary and everything saw through my invisibility like they had magic glasses or something.

[HairyDustBall]

I find that the good side has it much easier than the evil TS is easy to walk thru while getting to and from the beach in NEK is alot hader. On a side note I am a 32 wiz and walked invised into the misty mines and got 1 hit to death by an orange ^.  This does not seam like no risk, I know a 28 guard that couldn't get their shard back because they wandered into the wrong area in EL.  Lastly I was in a full group killing groups of greens in Nek and had a group wipe Im not sure why the entire forrest.....  So risk is there there is just a little less of it.

[bigmak20]

<span><blockquote><hr>HairyDustBall wrote:I find that the good side has it much easier than the evil TS is easy to walk thru while getting to and from the beach in NEK is alot hader. On a side note I am a 32 wiz and walked invised into the misty mines and got 1 hit to death by an orange ^.  This does not seam like no risk, I know a 28 guard that couldn't get their shard back because they wandered into the wrong area in EL.  Lastly I was in a full group killing groups of greens in Nek and had a group wipe Im not sure why the entire forrest.....  So risk is there there is just a little less of it. <hr></blockquote>.. you're 30+.  Now that all the 'casual' players are going to catch you they'll be whining about the zones you mention so they'll be dumbed down too.  jmo Seems to me zones are dumbed down as the 'average' played level on that server reaches the zone. But sure... you can leave the 'beaten path' and find risk. But for the sake of comparison... I could not step off the dock in EL or Nek without fully expecting to be running for my life and constantly checking my 6 when I leveled my main.  Now I don't even pause.  No risk.  That isn't me being a better player (which I hope is true had to learn something in 50 levels) that's mostly a matter of the MoBs that could slaughter me are gone -until- you go looking for them. When you have to seek out risk it isn't risk. </span><div></div>

[imready2go]

<P>Vashner wrote:<BR>"The solution is to make a very hard risk vs reward server and MOVE THE people currently complaining about EQ2 being to easy to that NEW server..."</P> <P>Yeah, it's called Vanguard!</P>

[Ashlian]

<P>They have the ability to downtier and uptier entire zones with no additional effort but the server space. I would find it difficult to believe there's not code for the original overland zones still sitting in their databases somewhere with the larger amount of heroic versus solo content. When they tested downtiering to begin with, it was on a single server and they put up TWO instances of the same zones, one much like the current downtiered version, one the old heroic. If I recall correctly, it was not on Test, it was a live server. </P> <P>My point being that I'm not sure why we're even hearing Glendral talk about tweaking group vs solo content within a zone. There are many many times now on Mistmoore when we never see two instances of zones like Antonica, EL, TS, Nek Forest, pretty much never Commonlands. Zek, EF, Lava.....mostly single instances. The servers are running on light loads as it is. So what for the love of Tunare is so difficult about leaving the downtiered zones and adding a "heroic" version (the old version they had prior to downtiering, so no additional work) that you could choose between when you zoned? I think there are enough people who want both to justify it. Honestly, inability to find challenging group content without going to a dungeon is more annoying to me when I'm grouped for a short time with my more casual guildmates than finding solo content ever was. I would have said lack of group content has had more impact on my group of guildies as casual players, since we have to venture into Timbuktu to find anything worth doing at our current level. Fighting orange or red solo mobs /= blue to yellow group content. </P> <P>I don't want to see the current solo friendly downtiered zones disappear or change extensively, but I would like the option to do something more difficult in an overland zone. Dungeons inevitably place more time constraints on players with limited time than overland zones do. They can please the majority by just giving us the choice. It's been done, it's even been done by them. Do it permanently.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 43 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P>