Combat Changes

[kallab]

<DIV>Well trying to put this post in as many places so a DEV might read it sorry if you have read it before:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>Ok I understand somtimes there must be change, real life, game, ect.. </P> <P>I have never played alts and have only played this Charater.</P> <P>He is 50/50</P> <P>I am a Palidian in a raiding guild, well when I made the Charater it was just made to tank groups then i was introduced to raiding. I quickly realized I couldnt MT, and it was Guardians job only. So I retrospected changed all from Stanima, HPs to STR, Prismatic went 2 Handed Sword, Fabled Items lets just say I went Strengh first.</P> <P>Result : In Raids 2nd DPS behind Warlocks ( I know I shouldnt be here ) but..... this is how the game was when I bought it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now when the combat changes come in I am ask to take a Tank Roll. Well in My guild we have 2 many tanks and basically my charater will be worthless on raids just taking up a spot.</P> <P>What are my choices after the combat changes ? </P> <P>1. Reroll ( Give us a one time Unattune also SOE, along with retrospect so we will feel better and more motivated to reroll ) </P> <P>( Fabled items only )</P> <P>They are not easy to get.. if u cant do that then u will see alot of old charaters cancling thier accounts, because well it was too much work getting all adept 3's and master skill and fabled armor, who wants to do it all over again.</P> <P>2. Quit ( because i put so much time and effort into this one charater just to see him be worthless during raids )</P> <P>and just wait for Vanguard to come out.</P> <P>3. Or stop raiding and become so bored of the game because u keep making everything easier besides raiding now and end up quiting.</P></DIV>

[VelvetAcid]

<span><blockquote><hr>kallabos wrote: <div><p>What are my choices after the combat changes ? </p> <p>1. Reroll ( Give us a one time Unattune also SOE, along with retrospect so we will feel better and more motivated to reroll ) </p> <p>( Fabled items only )</p> <p>They are not easy to get.. if u cant do that then u will see alot of old charaters cancling thier accounts, because well it was too much work getting all adept 3's and master skill and fabled armor, who wants to do it all over again.</p> <p>2. Quit ( because i put so much time and effort into this one charater just to see him be worthless during raids )</p> <p>and just wait for Vanguard to come out.</p> <p>3. Or stop raiding and become so bored of the game because u keep making everything easier besides raiding now and end up quiting.</p></div><hr></blockquote>4. Wait and see what they change *gasp* you might like them.</span><div></div>

[Crono1321]

You are so right...you do not belong anywhere but the bottom of the dps totem pole mr. heavy armor + taunts + heals + rez.  Your class is getting fixed, as are all of ours. <div></div>

[Babayaaga]

<P>The OP has a valid point.</P> <P>Think about it, if the game was released in a *broken* form, and the players have found a means to circumvent and find workarounds to this broken state. For SoE to even attempt or suggest a *fix* at this late stage of the game when people have already invested months of their spare time working to fit a template that was provided to them is one of the most dangerous things someone can do to a product.</P> <P>Would you buy something only to have that something recalled and replaced with something entirely different? As an example, would you buy a motorcycle only to have it recalled and replaced with a stationwagon? No, you would promptly ask for your money back, and spend your money elsewhere.</P> <P>Would you sign up to be on a baseball team, buy your equipment, then when you show up to the playing field find out that the team management decided instead they want a soccer team and expect you to re-equip yourself for that sport? No, you would tell that team management to <insert colourful adjective here>, find another player, and if you were angry enough you might present them with the bill for your equipment and find a means for them to reimburse you.</P> <p>Message Edited by Babayaaga on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

[kallab]

I know I should be on the bottom tier of totem poll, but that doesnt take away the 10 hours a day I have commited to this game and the charater knowing even after the combat changes, the Guardian should and always be the main tank on raids. This thread is based on raids not groups. If I wanted to just heal and rez on raids well I woulda made a healer. All I ask is that all the fabled items i got average 1 a month. Let me unatunne them so I can give to a DPS class and I will put the time and buy all the rubys ect.. just so I can play a class that will fit in the raid system is all I ask.

[shenker]

This is an MMO. With that said expect things to change and not everything to remain static.  I expect things to change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, but always expect possible change. You gotta admit some of the changes appear to be warranted for what they originaly had in mind for some of the classes. <div></div>

[Stormbil]

<P>Don't jump  to conclusions before the changes are made.  I thought I saw something a while back that stated different tanks classes would do better on different raid mobs.  I was under the impression that guardian was not going to be the ONLY choice for all raids, but that some raids would be better done with different tanks.  Plus, as a Paladin, I believe you and the guardian are going to be the best defensive tanks.  Which leads me to believe that you will have an easiet time being MT for a raid than all the other fighter classes (except guardians of course).  </P> <P> </P> <P>It seems that too many people are falling victim to the "I have to be UBER" syndrome in which they can't have fun unless they have one of the best classes.  The devs are gonna try to make things equal, but try to have fun with what you have rather than always longing for what you don't have.  Difficult I know, but makes life much more enjoyable.</P>

[missionarymarr]

<P>I would agree wait for the full changes to get to test first. 2nd I keep hearing people saying Guardian is going to be the best choice for MT in a raid after changes. Yet I am not so sure that is what they are attempting to do. Instead I believe they are trying to make it more balanced so all the Tanks have the ability to be MT in a raid. Finally the one concern I have as others have posted here. Is that taking away some of the damage a Tank can do especially for raids can cause lots of problems unless they really make it useful to have  numerous tanks in the raid. Basically I feel for these changes to be truly effective every role should be necessary to combine not just the DPS classes.</P> <P> </P> <P>Finally can we get an update when the changes are coming to test. The producer's letter said we would see them within 2 weeks. Well that was almost a month ago. I think it is about time to put them on test no matter how ready they are. We have been waiting to long for these changes now they need to start getting them to test so players can get an idea of what is coming and to fix the game.</P>

[Orgingrind]

<P>Currently as the game is something obviously has to be done.  There are many things which need to be fixed, and I believe that they have been worked on for a while now.  As this post is about Paladins and their roles on raids I will talk about that. </P> <P>Guardians are the hands down favorite now for being the tank on a raid.  Why is this?  Because with the right buffs, Guardian A can have more mitigatian and defense than any other class.  Add to this, they can easily achieve 100% avoidance.  Explain to me, logically... how an Ogre Guardian donned in full plate armor, wielding a huge tower shield could possibly have 100% avoidance?  Does this seem possible at all, or am i the only one who things this to be odd?  Imo the only classes in game who should be able to achieve such a rating in avoidance are monks / bruisers.  Where does this leave a paladin?  How can anyone honestly say they started a paladin to be good dps?  Honestly can anyone actually say, "I started eq2 and made a paladin for their uber dps"?  The answer is probably no.  In my opinion a paladin should be slightly above a guardian as far as dps goes, which should be slightly above priests. </P> <P>Where are we now... Fighters do a lot of dps.  Fighters tank and offtank.  It isn't right for tanks to do more dps than a non-tanking "dps" class.  Did SoE drop the ball on how they developed combat when this game was released?  Of course, no one will argue that.  Recall if you will Ice comet hitting for 1200 damage "WOOOHOO" uber power time.  Or devastation being a moderate joke to Warlocks.  They screwed up the combat sequence so badly that it's taken them this long to finally realize it and start fixing it.  If things change for the betterment of the game, which this combat change will do... then why complain?  You dont really know for sure what is happening with any class other than changes are coming (forgive me if i dont seem excited, they've been coming for months now, apparently). </P> <P>I guess what I'm trying to say is... if you fear you're being nerfed, i think you need to look at the big picture and say, heh.. well i had it good for 8 months, now i'm going to play the role i made the toon in the first place to fill.  As far as your gear, what possible changes would you make? lol...  Instead of wearing fabled heavy armor you'd wear fabled light? or medium?  Instead of picking prismatic 2hander you'd go 1hander?  I just dont understand the issue with gear and this call for a rollback on it.  If you want to unequip it so you can remake a toon because you dont like what's become of yours, well i think you know the answer to that question and shouldn't even really be asking it.  I started a bard because I liked a bard in eq1.  They aren't as dominant in this game, but they have their roles none the less.  I'm assuming people who play paladins play paladins in most rpgs they play and started one for the same reasons they started one in another game. </P> <P>In close i say again... No one makes a paladin in any game with visions of being a "dps" class.  If it turns out that way, then WOW, enjoy it.  However, along with enjoying it... there has to be alarms going off in your head saying is this really going to last?  And if they aren't, they really should be... so when changes do happen you aren't shocked.</P> <P>Orgingrinder</P>

[dejahtho]

<span><blockquote><hr>kallabos wrote: <div><p>2. Quit ( because i put so much time and effort into this one charater just to see him be worthless during raids )</p> <p>and just wait for Vanguard to come out.</p></div><hr></blockquote>brad mcquaid 4tehwin!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!! the second i get into beta (please oh please oh please) i'm cancelling this account.  okay, maybe not that exact second, but i sure won't be playing both games, especially if vanguard turns out to be what sigil is going for.  </span><div></div>

[Exmortis_MT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Babayaaga wrote:<BR> <P>Would you sign up to be on a baseball team, buy your equipment, then when you show up to the playing field find out that the team management decided instead they want a soccer team and expect you to re-equip yourself for that sport? No, you would tell that team management to , find another player, and if you were angry enough you might present them with the bill for your equipment and find a means for them to reimburse you.</P> <P>Message Edited by Babayaaga on <SPAN class=date_text>07-20-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:43 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First of all thats the worst analogy I have ever seen.  The combat revamp isnt going to take a paladin or me (SK) and suddenly turn us into a warlock?  And then all out gear fall off useless.  For crying out loud please stick to reality here and what is taking place.</P> <P>Tanks will STILL be tanks when the revamp happens, guess what?  that means all of nice fabled plate will still work and be useful, even maybe more useful in SK shoes.  You will NOT BE RAID MT every day as a paladin, actually less chance maybe to tank then now (my guild used a pally MT to great extent, just now our 3 best tanks are guardians due to gear), so your prismatic 2hander will be just as useful.  Tanks when not MT will still be in support role, thus all the str is needed.  But with resist specialization it appears all plate tanks will have a role for some fights, woohoo, sounds like a good thing to me.</P> <P>Weapons fabled or not will be just as useful.  when in a raid support role use your best weapon of the type and get to work.  Moorgard has stated everyone will get a respec due to complete changes, so we all get a chance to reset to what we want to be.  As a Paladin you will be 2nd best tank, 2nd worst DPS, I as an SK will be 4th best Tank and 4th worst DPS (a big drop in DPS btw for us, but relatively same spot for tanking).</P> <P>75% of eq2 is XP/Questing.  Argue all you want but at the end of the day level > all, so what you do in an XP group is mosty important.  Come expansion time Pallies will be very sought after for MTs in XP groups.  So your in a great spot come the changes.  Yuo will have specialized MT roles in raids due to resists and certain abilities and your outfitted well by the sounds of it, your just whining to read yourself whine.</P> <P>The revamp will make or break EQ2, but if its not done, it is already broke and will fail.  EQ2 is a good game whoes concepts are the best in MMOs currently, the content is expanding at a rate no one else can match.  The only issue is its underlying combat mechanics quite frankly suck, they need fixing, no they need a complete overhaul.  I am looking forward to this revamp, I think it will make this game great, like it so wants to be.</P> <P>Combat arts with no casting time?  priceless, for everything else there is a recast timer.</P><p>Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:49 AM</span>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>kallabos wrote:<div> I am a <b>Palidian</b> in a raiding guild,</div><hr></blockquote> G'nort!</span><div></div>

[Mortei]

<P> </P> <P>Started to read and i got this -> " I couldnt MT, and it was Guardians job only. " far <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Whine whine whine whine whine.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you cant tank as paladin, dont blame the class, blame yourself or the lack of buffs.</P> <P>Crusaders and berserkers can tank very good, just at good as guardian in my eyes and experience.</P>

[Garlicyesterday]

<DIV>As being a 50 paladin in a raiding guild too , i have to agree we will be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed up if you are in a guild where there is too many guardians already , then again this will depends on people view the game and and if they wanna let u tank , ive tanked groupx4 already with no problems....but then again even atm we dont belong anywhere in a raiding group...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for fabled items , SoE take that attune [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] off so people on servers can create some type of ECONOMY dammit , there is none!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want the No-Drop on SOME very rare and very good items back but rest of fabled gear should be tradeable , even if u wore it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Takes so much time to get good fabled gear , take example when the MT of the guild have gotten some fabled gloves then some very very better gloves drops , the guild wants to give em to MT since it will benefit more the guild but doing that there is a pair of fabled gloves that will rott in a bank...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FIX THIS SoE , use your intelligence to see that problem , its not complicated and easy to understand !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Varkas 50th Paladin of Crushbone</DIV>

[Trollb]

<DIV>"Well trying to put this post in as many places so a DEV might read it sorry if you have read it before"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Asssface little 9 year olds on daddys computer post duplicate posts in every forum they can so they can raise their voice above everyone elses. Thanks for the spam.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Now when the combat changes come in I am ask to take a Tank Roll. Well in My guild we have 2 many tanks and basically my charater will be worthless on raids just taking up a spot."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah yes of course, since as we all know ... one of the best tanks in the game that also has heals will be  completely useless to groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh boo hoo hoo. Tell it to your mommy. Maybe ive spent too much time in freeport lately, I just dont sympathize with your QQ session.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Drtydog]

<P>If you wanted to raid you shouldn't have played a Paladin</P> <P>about the only thing i agree with is that fabled gear should not be attunable.  I mean unless you're filthy rich or raid a lot how many master chests are you going to find with fabled loot in it htat you can 1 actually wear and 2.  win the lotto.  They ought to at least let you move fabled gear between toons on teh same acct.  Why let a Staff of The Boar go to waste by never letting you use it again because your toon levlled up and you attuned it?  </P> <P> </P>

[Vulking]

<P>If any class is going to get changed (aka. nerfed) its guards, and you can debate the right or wrong of this all you want.  The point I want to make is that if roles will be changing and it sounds like they will, its only fair that along with a <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>respec</STRONG></FONT> we get a <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>re-attune</STRONG></FONT>.  After all, some classes that predominately support in a fight like palys, bruisers, monks, sks, have went 8 months gearing with strength in mind, this relates to both weapons and armor.  Some knowing that they would never be tanking went and got the best 2hander they could, some found armor and jewelry that had strength and agility as primary stats instead of stamina.  ( I won't even get into rolling on raid loot, or prismatic weapon choices.)</P> <P>Now comes the combat changes and alot of this stuff, while not entirely un-useful, is not the best choice for the change in roles that some are expecting out of these changes.  <FONT color=#ffcc00>PLEASE allow us to re-coup some of our losses (preceived or real), in the choices of items we made because of the roles we thought we were filling.</FONT>  Because if you are going to change our roles, we shouldn't have to live with the choices you in a way forced us to make.</P> <P>Ultimately, if I had my way, I would ask for a chance to <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>re-class</STRONG><FONT color=#ffffff>  as well.  I tried many characters under what I will call the old combat model, to find the one I liked to play, you could say I re-rolled characters several times.  The point im making here is that I'm now 50 and I believe a fundamental change is coming to all classes,  I may end up with a class I no longer wish to play, although I greatly hope this is not the case.  </FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Changing the game in the ways they are planning, is like re-writing the rule book, after the game has already started, and yes I am aware this is a dynamic game, always changing and blah blah blah..., we are not talking about adding content, fixing bugs, minor tweaks or game enhancements,  we are talking about game altering changes.</FONT></FONT></P> <P>So in summation I ask for;</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Respec</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Re-Attune</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Re-Class</FONT></STRONG></P> <P> </P>

[Encantador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Hammarus wrote:</P> <P>............................</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffffff>Changing the game in the ways they are planning, is like re-writing the rule book, after the game has already started, and yes I am aware this is a dynamic game, always changing and blah blah blah..., we are not talking about adding content, fixing bugs, minor tweaks or game enhancements,  we are talking about game altering changes.</FONT></FONT></P> <P>.................<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It is more like changing the rules a bit between seasons. It won't be a completely different game, but by changing the offside rule they hope to make things a bit more fun for all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Aldelbert]

I'm astounded that some of you people think that this was going to last.  I started two characters, a Brigand and a SK.  Both started off as true to their archtypes, the SK could tank fairly well and the Brigand was doing a good job of dps.  As I got higher in level with both, the SK began to start taking different form.  He was out damaging my Brigand with little effort.  My Brigand suffered pretty badly as knowledge grew that they weren't as good damage wise compaired to a Tank or just about any other class really.  My Brigand started to only get invited out of pity from friends or if I was the only one LFG in that level range. I welcome these combat changes with open arms.  I mean seriously, when you answered the guard out in the newbie isle that you wanted to be a tank, did you really expect that you should be able to out-dps a scout with equal equipment and level? If so, you're on crack.  The moment I realized that my SK could out-dps my scout was when I knew that eventually, some day, SoE was going to "fix" it.  People need to stop pretending like these changes were never coming and it's so horrible it's happening.  Hello McFly! They're changing it so archtypes and classes will be able to perform their functions like they should be doing! People need to calm the hell down and stop working themselves up over these changes.  The information leaked so far has been nothing but good in my opinion about the upcoming changes.  Maybe my SK will be able to tank better even if he can't DPS like he used to but I didn't make him for DPS in the first place. :p  <div></div>

[Vulking]

<P>_________________________</P> <P>Aldelbert wrote:</P> <P>I welcome these combat changes with open arms.  I mean seriously, when you answered the guard out in the newbie isle that you wanted to be a tank, did you really expect that you should be able to out-dps a scout with equal equipment and level? If so, you're on crack.  The moment I realized that my SK could out-dps my scout was when I knew that eventually, some day, SoE was going to "fix" it.  People need to stop pretending like these changes were never coming and it's so horrible it's happening.  Hello McFly! They're changing it so archtypes and classes will be able to perform their functions like they should be doing!<BR></P> <P>______________________________</P> <P>Hello, ... <STRONG>we all know that the changes are coming to fix whats wrong, thats not the point!</STRONG> I agree with you and Sony that the changes need to be made. The point is we have been playing with our characters broken and geared them up in ways to minimize or offset the things that were wrong and maximize the advantages.  When they change things,  certain advantages and disadvantages of each class will change, we should not have to live with decisions we made as far as armor weapons and dare i say class when they do.</P> <P> </P> <P>To the one star bandit, post why you don't agree with my previous post, if you haven't already.</P>

[caliedh]

I wouldn't worry about the changes making all of your uber hard earned gear and abilities useless.  The combat changes look like they will be an integral part of the expansion to lvl 60.  This means that there will all sorts of higher lvl armor, weapons, fabled gear, quest items, new spells, abilities and traits to find and acquire.  In all honesty all of us will be working hard to replace our current stuff with this new, better stuff for the new end game raids at lvl 60.  Yes, there will be some growing pains as we try to fit into our slightly altered roles with less than perfect gear for it.  But as you lvl and replace your gear with more appropriate stuff, which you would be doing anyway even without the combat changes, things will improve.  You will just be choosing gear with slightly different purpose (different resists, bonuses, and procs) than you would have before the combat changes. <div></div>

[Melkor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Garlicyesterday wrote:<div>As being a 50 paladin in a raiding guild too , i have to agree we will be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed up if you are in a guild where there is too many guardians already , then again this will depends on people view the game and and if they wanna let u tank , ive tanked groupx4 already with no problems....but then again even atm we dont belong anywhere in a raiding group...</div></blockquote> I am not a paladin i understand you don't want to have your dps nerfed  into oblivion but for the love of god to say even atm you don't belong on a raid tells me you never raid PERIOD. Why i say this you might ask? because paladins on our raids are always the rezers with dirdge. Healers never rez.  So to say you don't belong is just not knowing what your talking about i'm sorry. I personally worry for most of you fighters simply because you make a big chunk of the population of the 50's. I don't think the changes are going to be so drastic you don't function. And the is much more in balance than just dps to tanking ability. To say a Guardian after patch will not MT as much that could be possible but i doubt it. because they give up all to focus on purely tanking and that has always been what becomes the MT in a raid. As is right now for SP a paladin is a great off tank for the shaman and berzerker is better for a lutenient((i can't spell)) . So the idea of different types of tanks using there resists specialty is already starting to come into play for raiding. Grouping? i couldn't tell you i lvled up with a berzerker and don't really group at all anymore i prety much only raid. And for the revamp the focus needs to be grouping not raiding. Whether or not you and i like it we ((hardcore rader 8+ hours a day camping / raiding)) are not the majority of the player base. If the grouping is done right roles in raiding are easier to balance. In the end your going to see your dmg go down i don't think your spells for ae and other things are going to get nerfed a bunch if at all just your basic swing dmg. While the scout basic swing will go up significantly. I think Moorgaurd said something about that on a post. Just wait and see and ask people in DoF as i hear its in place for that testing right now to get an idea of what will  come. Don't judge till you have played. And lastly if your second dps to a warlock [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is your bruiser and zerkers doing they beat me on alot of raids because of being buffed properly.</span><div></div>

[Xith]

<DIV>Its hard to say whats gonna happen, but from the game designers comments on this board is sounds like the solution will be to nerf guardians, so they tank as well as the other classes.  So instead of guilds getting more viable tanks, the answer is to simple remove viable tanks from the game and put us all on an even playing ground! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In various threads sony employees states,...</DIV> <DIV>- guards wont be able to stack their buffs anymore (glad I spent the PP to upgrade em)</DIV> <DIV>- guards will get the ability to better give other players their defense! (ya this is what I want to do... guards dont DPS, or Heal, so I want to give a bserker my defense and stand there swinging my weapon doing 1/4 the dmg other classes are doing)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Be interesting to see what kinda class Im going to end up with, Sounds like a Pre-Velious EQ1 Paladin with a single buff for defense and another single buff for hp and no healing spells =</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But on the brightside - they are going to change spells, so those two spells will only be based on spell level (app, adept, master) and not on the 'Protection' skill,.... Rendering my one cool piece of '+ protection' gear nerfed!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Xithyl on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

[Ethelwo]

I play a L50 berserker and have already quit the game. I may restart, but only after the combat changes are out and I can evaluate their effect on the game play of my character. As it is right now I can not see myself investing any more time into my character or money into the game until after these changes are made.  It's SOEs game, but its my money. Some may say, How can you evaluate the effects if you don't play? Trust me, these boards will let me know all I need to know.

[Amise]

<div></div><div></div>So you play a plate-wearing taunting class.  And who are you blaming because you have structured your character for DPS?  While I can agree that some of the combat changes might cause people to rethink certain aspects of their class, I can't quite stomach the fact that you are blaming Sony because you choose to play your <i>Paladin</i> as a <i>DPS </i>class<i>.  </i> My Assassin is sometimes not that hot on the DPS in comparison to certain other classes.  But that does not and never will make me want to try and structure her for tanking.  You know, because that would be quite stupid. <div></div><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Amise on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:54 PM</span>

[Ashare]

<div></div><div></div>Sometimes i really wonder if some people use their brains ...... Guardian <b>IS</b> and wil <b>ALWAYS BE</b> a plate wearing tank standing ground and taking damage while protecting others that are killing the ennemy. It's the <b>DEFINITION</b> of a guardian, to guard and protect. If you tought that you were a plate wearing tank that had to do as much damage than a medium armored positioned scout, i don't even feel sorry if you get nerfed. I'm sorry, but tanks should be <b>TANKS</b> first, and the name says it all.... Now, you can complain that you don't see fighters as tank but as damage dealers... and you have the right to.  Some games are designed this way and works. EQ2 is not, and <b>NEVER</b> was, and <b>NEVER</b> will be. It's said since the beginning of beta that the mak is in rôle of tanks is TANKING, not dps. So if you don't like it, cancel your account now and go find a game where fighters are not tanks, and stop whinning there because SoE says that they'll finally do in game what they say the game should be since the beginning, <u><b>aka Fighters=tanks, healers=healers, scouts= are dps and utility and mages are mostly dps and sometimes utility</b></u>. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ashareth on <span class="date_text">07-26-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:32 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ashareth on <span class=date_text>07-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:33 PM</span>

[ADW123]

<DIV>I don't know why you people insist on critizing the OP, stating that he wants to be the best tank and have the best dps. This is clearly not the case. He explained that he originally made the character to tank. When it was made obvious to him that he could not do this while raiding he changed his tactics to improve his damage so he would be more useful during raids. No where did he claim that he wanted the both of best worlds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When the changes go live though it is likely that his ability to do damage will be dropped considerably and his tanking ability increased. From a raiding point of view though he will still not be able to ever tank in a raid...hybrids do not tank when raiding and as such without his dps he is useless. There really is no reason to play a game when you feel you are useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE needs to make each tank class have something unique that makes them better under certain circumstances so that the Guardian isn't the end all to tanking for raids. There should be some encounters where a Paladin or SK or Monk is a better choice to tank. Until this happens hybrids will always feel useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel sorry for the OP that the vision SOE had at the beginning of the game is thrown out the window when raiding is involved. Every class should have something to contribute to the game whether grouping or raiding and every class should feel useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Curaga</DIV> <DIV> 50 Templar</DIV> <DIV> Unrest</DIV>

[Raven DarkSto]

<P>For goodness sake people, why all the aggro at the OP?</P> <P>I understand all the DPS classes being upset that tanks were outdamaging them, but this guy didn't design the game, lol.  All he was asking is that since he picked his fabled armor and weapons to maximize the way his class was working, (sure it was broken, but what the heck can you do but play the cards they deal ya), that he get a chance to reroll part or all of his character to take advantage of the choices he made while playing a broken character.  And to the poster that said equipment makes no difference, What freaking game are you playing?  Equipment makes a HUGE difference in the way a build works currently!</P> <P>I am all for seeing what the new system looks like before panicking but I agree the changes sound sweeping.  It is not unreasonable to ask that if they change the fundamental way a character's class works, even if it is a fix, then let us have a chance to reconsider what class we want to play.</P> <P>Really not cool for us to take our game related frustrations out on posters with legit concerns.</P>

[Ashare]

For my part, it's not the op i went against, but the people complaining(AGAIN) about tank dps nerfing.... The op can be right... but i don't agree with him. Investing in skills upgrade is not a waste, and will be even less in the new system if it is half what they promised us. Because the skills will no longer upgrade with leveling, only with upgrading them to adept/master. So having them done now where most ppl don't do it is far better than doing it in a few months when everybody will need them and there will not be an augmentation of rare drop rate. For the fabled gear, you'll maybe have gear that will no longer be THE BEST for your rôle, but still pretty good gear, and you'll have time to adjutst. I think you are really dreaming about the disparition of attuning or the capacity to reattune gear with combat changes. We are already lucky they promised us a /res_spec because of this changes, because they didn't allowed us with the multiples changes they did since the suppression of /res-pec. And it's not the higher level chars who will be hurt the most by the changes on gear, because they can fast farm zones that drop merchant junk and so on that sells pretty well, and stack up money to change gear(if needed) later. Having a LOT of str is never bad for a tank, even if that makes it a more offensive tank. So in definitive you'll have an offense oriented Defensive Tank, and you'll have to decide if you stay this way or if you do the investments to go back to a Defensive Defensive Tank. Maybe not fun, but it's far better that being a totally useless class or a buff bot like some(a lot?) of classes are now..... In definitive, the REAL problem behind combat changes is not the balance between tank, the problem is tanks are roughly half the population in eq2 and even in your most wet dreams there will not be enough room for half of them in balanced groups and raid. In raid the major problem is there is always 2 or 3 or 5 guardians the same level as you and with roughly the same equippement to do your role. It's the problem with other classes now, sometimes there is 4 to 10 zerk/monk/bruisers that can take a scout or other dps positionse in a group, because there is so much tank in comparison with the number of archetypes they represent. PS : I hope ou understood my point, i must admit i'm not sure i'm clear, i'm in trouble trying to say what i think exactly with english... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Tanaric]

<DIV>All this talk of "tanks aren't meant to be DPS" really aren't valid.  You all forget that the vast majority of players of this game have never been to these forums, and a lot of them never played a MMORPG before.  In most games, and in most fiction, the guy with heavy plate and a big sword is super strong.  The "scout" is able to shoot arrows from afar perhaps, but the fighter is able to jump in and do serious damage—their damage-dealing ability was second only to wizards.  In EQ, warriors are the weakest characters in the game—nobody who's never played a MMORPG expects this!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I'm sorry, but tanks should be TANKS first, and the name says it all...."</DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry, but in the world I inhabit, tanks have huge guns on them and blow things up all over the place.  And, I'm sorry, but I don't recall being asked on the Isle of Refuge if I wanted to be a "tank."  I do remember being asked if I wanted to be a fighter, and I do recall being ready to use my sword to inflict justice on the unwary, unwilling, or anyone else who got in the way.  In this game, a tank doesn't have to swing his sword at all, and he's just as effective as one who does.  No problem—that's a design decision, and one that actually makes some sense—but don't criticize users who expected some damage from their Paladin and are suddenly using that because EQ1's paladins were meek.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The original poster has every right to be upset if his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]-kicking ability is taken away from him.  I think he might be complaining a bit prematurely, but that's just my opinion, and it's not really important or relevant.  However, the jerks yelling at him for choosing to play a damage-dealing paladin need an attitude adjustment, as it's a completely valid playstyle, and there's no reason (for the average new player, not an oldbie from EQ1) to think that decision is ackward or atypical.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Edit: Removed all the "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]" things by rewriting a few key terms.  My language wasn't really that bad, but I don't wish to be out-of-place.  Apologies if any were offended.</EM></DIV><p>Message Edited by Tanaric on <span class=date_text>07-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:25 AM</span>

[Giral]

<DIV>Tanaric good points ; ) i have only played 1 mmorpg befor eq2. And i tried each of the classes and wound up chosing a ShadowKnight as my main character becuase i could go solo or i could MT i do ok dmg and battles are long and i always fight things that i may die from and in groups the healer has to actually work to keep me alive. BUt yes im a fighter i am in the front of the battle i should be able to go kill things alone or with a group i should be able to do enough dmg to be useful to a group and not just be a Meatshield. i do not just stand there getting hit by the mob i work my Butt off being Mt. i'm watching for adds im casting ward on my self checking other members health and power to make sure there not getting barraged or to low on mana for the next pull . i am constantly walking a thin line on power consumption attacking and taunting and warding. i dont just sit there spaming the same 3 buttons over and over and over. </DIV> <DIV>         I have worked really hard to be a Great Tank i have taken over many times in groups even for Gaurdians. The person makes the Player not the reverse yeah if there is a Skilled SK and a Skilled Gaurdian the gaurd will get picked 100% of the time and i dont mind playin back up tank(use to it cause even at lvl 39 people ask me can an SK be a MT which i find totally hilarious) But when i started the game at low level there wasn't any huge differance in the abilities and there was no notification that i was slated to be the 4th tank in line and my dps if im back up tank runs out killing the first pull on the mob so i sit there and watch the party kill the other 3 or 4 with my thumb up my <> .  And now from what i hear they are lowering my dps also. So i can't tank i can't solo i can't Dps and i am worthless in a group cause im oop in about 30 seconds. BUT there may be 1 specific mob that a shadowknight is usefull to kill becuase of my disease resistance lol. so i will get to party 1/100 of the time. </DIV> <DIV>       I love my Shadowknight just the way he is i never asked for any revamp i feel theres a few bugs like my power consumption and my low % on regaining agro IF i loss it which i rarely do. BUT every class has some buggs and always will </DIV> <DIV>even with a total revamp there are just giong to be diffrent bugs to fix i dont get as much online play as some others do (10 hours a day ? WOW sweet) but when i do get to play i mostly just go EXP MT or solo im not much of a questor thats why i chose to be a fighter i just like tryin to put the beat down on things. </DIV> <DIV>        Lastly I hardly ever have been on the Forums and only resently come on here to look and see what was giong on in here AND LOL i find out that there is a Huge Re-vamp coming to the Game welp i think somebody better go inform the other 50 to 70 % off the players that only get to play for 2 to 3 hours a day everyother day or so that have NO idea that all this is taking place I wouldn't have found out if i didnt go into the Shadowknight forums and see all the Whining and complaining in there about how we are a Gimped class ARGHGh "Salute to the SK's who know how to Work it :smileyvery-happy: " and i Seriously think that someBody somewhere better post it up on load up page instead of the Split Paw POP up there should be a HUGE Re-Vamp pop up cause i found this all out accidentally and im sure that there are tons more that dont go on fourms that dont have a clue and in a month are giong to get the shock of there lives </DIV> <DIV>    </DIV> <DIV>                 I hope that the new re-vamp really works out i wish i could say it sounds like its shaping up nicely but : ) i have almost nothing to go on But a few Posts tidbits from here and there and the speculations about it but nobody really knows and even tho this has been gion on for months i just found out about it and there are thousands more that dont have a clue that its giong to happen ; ( </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>               POST UP SOME REAL INFO ON START UP SOE BECUASE LOTS O POEPLE DON"T READ FORUMS </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>07-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:42 PM</span>

[Aldelbert]

I fail to understand how exactly tanks/fighters are "weak" when they're pretty much required to beat all major encounters within the game.  It's knee jerk posts like this that really irk me to death.  Are you even thinking logically? They're one of the most required archtypes to have next to the healer.  If a group loses it's dps or mage then it's no big deal but the second that healer or tank leaves it halts.  Some of the comments in this thread astound me so far.  You people are seriously expecting to be able to dish out better DPS than a scout and have tons of hp/mitigation too? Just...Wow....  I'm also probably going to slap the next person that uses the excuse of, "Well, I envisioned my tank to be like Conan and just clean house with his big two hander!11" Sorry but this is SoE's game and SoE's rules.  You're not going to be this big dominate warrior that dismembers everything in sight.  Fighters/tanks are going to do lower damage than scouts for balance reasons.  Otherwise there would be no point in picking a scout or mage then.  The only way a paladin should be able to dish out tons of damage is if they're fighting undead.  Other than that there's little reasoning gameplay wise to have them out damage a mage or scout.  That's the rules of the game.  If this conflicts with your "vision" of how you wanted or wished your fighter to be then tough luck or better yet, pull out a table top RPG and design your own fighter and make them as powerful as you like so it doesn't conflict with others who wish to have balance within the game. <div></div>

[Tanaric]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aldelbert wrote:<BR>I fail to understand how exactly tanks/fighters are "weak" when they're pretty much required to beat all major encounters within the game.  It's knee jerk posts like this that really irk me to death.  Are you even thinking logically? They're one of the most required archtypes to have next to the healer.  If a group loses it's dps or mage then it's no big deal but the second that healer or tank leaves it halts.  <BR><BR>Some of the comments in this thread astound me so far.  You people are seriously expecting to be able to dish out better DPS than a scout and have tons of hp/mitigation too? Just...Wow....  I'm also probably going to slap the next person that uses the excuse of, "Well, I envisioned my tank to be like Conan and just clean house with his big two hander!11" Sorry but this is SoE's game and SoE's rules.  You're not going to be this big dominate warrior that dismembers everything in sight.  Fighters/tanks are going to do lower damage than scouts for balance reasons.  Otherwise there would be no point in picking a scout or mage then.  <BR><BR>The only way a paladin should be able to dish out tons of damage is if they're fighting undead.  Other than that there's little reasoning gameplay wise to have them out damage a mage or scout.  That's the rules of the game.  If this conflicts with your "vision" of how you wanted or wished your fighter to be then tough luck or better yet, pull out a table top RPG and design your own fighter and make them as powerful as you like so it doesn't conflict with others who wish to have balance within the game.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Nobody's saying that the balance in EQ2 with regards to tank DPS is wrong.  My point was that it jibes against typical fantasy and the norm.  There are plenty of ways to make fighter archtypes do lots of damage and still be balanced: you could make them extremely weak against magic, or give the mages more anti-fighter spells, or make the scouts better at ranged damage (because a "backstab" in the middle of combat doesn't make any damned sense at all).  However, that wasn't my point.  My point was that because this fiction differs so widely from typical fiction, and, more pertinantly, doesn't make that differentiation clear from the start (play Isle of Refuge again; the trainer doesn't say "as a fighter, you'll be expected to stand there and taunt while everybody else does the work), somebody who has a legitimate complaint about changes to the system that could reduce the damage-dealing potential of a fighter, especially a fighter that's been specially built to do damage and NOT tank, should not be heckled or flamed for said complaint.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem stems from a simple core difference between Norrath and the real world: in Norrath, combat is about numbers and timing, and, for the most part, you stand and duke it out until one party dies.  Now, imagine, say, Half-Life 2 enemy encounters in EverQuest II.  Dynamics and unpredictability take the place of mathematics and watching for adds.  In a more "real" combat model, there would be a valid use for all types of character classes.  In the Norrathian model of "fighter, healer, caster," only predefined roles are of any real use in combat.  In a more real game-world, a Paladin with heavy plate and a gigantic sword could justifiably do amazing amounts of damage, because as soon as he came across a monster in a muddy swamp, he would be unable to fight (the weight of his equipment would turn mud into quicksand).  I'm not asking for a realistic combat model in this game; what I'm saying is that somebody who has very little experience with games (you know, 70% of the subscription base) will expect something much closer to the real world than EQII's VERY limited combat model, and both Sony and the experience playerbase has to keep that in mind.  While I would never build a Paladin for doing damage, because I know that's ultimately a fruitless task, the original poster managed to do it under a certain set of conditions.  While I would expect those conditions to eventually be removed, an average player <STRONG>wouldn't.</STRONG></DIV>

[Mage-Apprentice]

<P>An everage player could atleast try to read a manual, while many things are wrong, some things can't make confusion, espesialy when it i changed in what the manual says.</P> <P>/quote</P> <P>Fighter</P> <P>Figthers enjoy the think of the fray, often absorbing the brunt of attacks while taking the battle of the enemy dircetly. Fighters wear da variety of armor, and employ a host of weapons and combat arts to defeat enemies.</P> <P>/endquote.</P> <P> </P> <P>No offense, but I see some whiny post like boohoohoo, my tank gets balanced up to what the manual says.</P> <P>The primary role of a class (fighter) is to tank, so are all his subbclasses, some classes gain damage while taking out of an other aspect, or have more defense abilities (to the group) while taking out an other role.</P> <P> </P> <P>What other games do isn't important, what soe does is, they provided infomation before you could buy the game how it is like, often game magazines also publisch these same info.</P> <P>The manual, even with it's errors did say what the basic role kinda was.</P> <P> </P> <P>Having better hp, better AC and having better dps than a scout or a mage, is a no-brainer...... it is unbalanced, yet again I don't care game X gives tank Z a weaker defense than a mage, so he can do equal dps, plz use the information that is provided to you, a "I didn't know it" doesn't, can't, wont and will ever aplly here at all.</P>

[Tanaric]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mage-Apprentice wrote:<BR> <P><snip></P> <P>/quote</P> <P>Fighter</P> <P>Figthers enjoy the think of the fray, often absorbing the brunt of attacks while taking the battle of the enemy dircetly. Fighters wear da variety of armor, and <STRONG>employ a host of weapons and combat arts to defeat enemies</STRONG>.</P> <P>/endquote.</P> <P></snip><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>To me, "Fighters employ a host of weapons and combat arts to defeat enemies" doesn't translate to "Fighters do the least amount of damage out of all the classes in the game."  Thanks for supporting my point.  You really should read what it <STRONG>actually says</STRONG> before trying to use it to back up an argument it <STRONG>doesn't support</STRONG>.</DIV>

[GamertagDoz]

<DIV>I think one of two steps should be taken to maybe satisfy some of the fighters.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Change some of your text on the Isle of Refuge letting everyone know what they are really in store for when they decide on a class.  Fighters do sound the most appealing when creating your first character and not having any MMORPG background.  Give a quick tutorial on group roles maybe showing a quick clip of what people should be doing with their characters.  We all now know that Fighters are meant to take the hits, not dish it out, but this is very unclear when picking for the first time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Change the way you can build up Fighters.  Picking Offensive traits will lower defense or vise versa.  That way people can make Fighters that do some decent damage but can't take a hit too well (aka scout) or make a weak attacking tank that can take hits like no other (aka Guardian).  You may say re-roll and make the correct changes during class selection, but to those who were confused in what they were in store for might want this option.  That way you don't get the feeling that your character is useless or that you wasted so much time with a dead end character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I'd like to see the tutorials changed up a bit to better describe the path you are about to take.  To those who picked a fighter thinking they were getting a melee machine, it's not your fault.  Most of us would have known the future of our character through OOC (out of character chat channel) but for the Original Poster who made his character from the start, he would have had no idea of the future of his character and that's where I feel bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  I no longer feel as bad for him because he only said he "never made an alt" not that he played from launch.  Should have kind of expected what you were getting into through Guildmates.  And don't Pally's get a buff or two that add mitigation to others at a sacrifice of their own?  Someone said something earlier about being "buff bots."  If you're providing even one buff to the raid that no one else can, you've showed to be of some use.  Sure you don't get the spotlight, but your efforts weren't for nothing either.</DIV><p>Message Edited by GamertagDoz on <span class=date_text>07-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:05 AM</span>

[Aldelbert]

EQ2 does not go against normal fantasy lore and games at all.  EQ1 was widely based on D&D originally.  Warriors, Barbarians, and Paladins have been classified as "tanks" in D&D and rogues can deal nice damage too.  Your "balance" of changes to making fighters do more dps is rediculous as well.  Anti-fighter spells? Your average wizard/conjur/necro/warlock would wipe the floor with a tank in a fight with their current aresenal so additional anti-fighter spells wouldn't make sense.  I've never heard of mages with spells like that in fantasy lore come to think of it, just like not all "scouts" do ranged damage,  some are stealthy backstabbers.  I don't quite get how you've never heard of a rogue not "backstabbing" in a fight.  That's been a staple since D&D and nearly all fantasy lore involving rogues.  I'm not sure what kind of "fantasy" you've been reading but it sounds rather wacked.  Tanks being weak against magic wouldn't work either since in a raid or group mob if they got nuked they'd be kissing the pavement and unable to perform their jobs. You're also overassuming that people are so stupid they won't be able to figure out that their class is ment to be a tank.  If they don't learn it within the first 20 levels they're going to nicely alienate themselves from the server like some tanks have on mines.  If you're actually building your tank to do sorely dps then you're most likely sacraficing your ability to tank better which is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and you're setting yourself up to get picked over in a group.  Nobody likes a tank that thinks his a scout or a mage that thinks he can tank and so on.  People who can't do their jobs get kicked rather quick which is what I like about EQ2 compaired to WoW.  A lot of people on WoW are complete idiots with very few people that can even group intelligently. And now you're bashing EQ2's combat engine and comparing it to HL2? Jesus christ....I bet you think Counter-Strike has more strategy than EQ2 also.  Sorry, but EQ2 will have more strategy than a FPS would in it's pinky. Even with EQ2's bland combat system, it utterly crushes HL2 in terms of using your brain to win a fight.  HL2, like most FPSs, boils down to reflexes and aim in the end.  Sure there's minor puzzle solving but if you can point and click on the big nasties on screen then you'll win.  You're again assuming the player base is idiotic and that they don't know they've picked up an online RPG.  The isle of refuge and the first 20 levels is there to educate them quite throughly that this isn't a FPS and how to play it.  I really don't feel sorry for anyone crying that their tank isn't going to do massive dps anymore.  If you read the manual and been through the first 20 levels then they should know what their role is and it sure as hell ain't outdamaging scouts and mages.  <div></div>

[Encantador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanaric wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mage-Apprentice wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P>/quote</P> <P>Fighter</P> <P>Figthers enjoy the think of the fray, often absorbing the brunt of attacks while taking the battle of the enemy dircetly. Fighters wear da variety of armor, and <STRONG>employ a host of weapons and combat arts to defeat enemies</STRONG>.</P> <P>/endquote.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>To me, "Fighters employ a host of weapons and combat arts to defeat enemies" doesn't translate to "Fighters do the least amount of damage out of all the classes in the game."  Thanks for supporting my point.  You really should read what it <STRONG>actually says</STRONG> before trying to use it to back up an argument it <STRONG>doesn't support</STRONG>.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hmmm ... actually says???</P> <P>"Fighters employ a host of weapons and combat arts to defeat enemies" where does that say anything about the amount of damage done by a fighter?</P> <P>All it says is that you will have a wide variety of tools available.</P> <P>"Fighters enjoy the thick of the fray, often absorbing the brunt of attacks while taking the battle to the enemy directly. Fighters wear a variety of armor, and employ a host of weapons and combat arts to defeat enemies."</P> <P>Nothing there says high damage to me.</P> <P>To paraphrase.... Fighters are in the middle of fights and usually take a beating on behalf of their fellow adventurers. They have a wide variety of armour, weapons, and combat arts that they can use.</P> <P> </P>

[JuJut]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanaric wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mage-Apprentice wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P>/quote</P> <P>Fighter</P> <P>Figthers enjoy the think of the fray, often absorbing the brunt of attacks while taking the battle of the enemy dircetly. Fighters wear da variety of armor, and <STRONG>employ a host of weapons and combat arts to defeat enemies</STRONG>.</P> <P>/endquote.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>To me, "Fighters employ a host of weapons and combat arts to defeat enemies" doesn't translate to "Fighters do the least amount of damage out of all the classes in the game."  Thanks for supporting my point.  You really should read what it <STRONG>actually says</STRONG> before trying to use it to back up an argument it <STRONG>doesn't support</STRONG>.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Tanaric, why don't you post the descriptions of all the archetypes? If your beef is about fighter damage relative to the other archtypes lets see what the manual says about the damage of the other archtypes as well...make the case that the manual describes all the archetypes in a way so that a reasonable person would assume that fighters were the top damage dealers.<BR>

[Tanaric]

<DIV>I'll reply inline to Aldelbert, as his post was pretty substancial.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Aldelbert wrote:<BR>EQ2 does not go against normal fantasy lore and games at all.  EQ1 was widely based on D&D originally.  Warriors, Barbarians, and Paladins have been classified as "tanks" in D&D and rogues can deal nice damage too. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>What are you talking about?  You're clearly one of the 3rd edition D&D players.  D&D isn't a combat-based game like EQ, it's a role-playing game (do you know what that even means?), so your comparison is pretty invalid.  Even in 3e, check the base attack tables for warriors/paladins/barbarians, and check their Feats.  They do gobs more damage than a rogue.</FONT></P> <P>Your "balance" of changes to making fighters do more dps is rediculous as well.  Anti-fighter spells? Your average wizard/conjur/necro/warlock would wipe the floor with a tank in a fight with their current aresenal so additional anti-fighter spells wouldn't make sense.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I have no idea, I don't play a mage.  However, why is it balanced for a mage to do uberdamage and be fairly defended against spells (and again, that's an assumption, because by typical fiction, they should be -- this is from a new player's standpoint), but unbalanced for a fighter to do uberdamage and be fairly defended against melee?</FONT></P> <P>I've never heard of mages with spells like that in fantasy lore come to think of it</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Since you're fond of D&D, I'll bring that up again.  You've never used rapid aging spells, or Oiluke's Resiliant Sphere (spelling may be off), or even something creative like casting Disentigrate on an enemies' sword/armor instead of on him, so that, for example, his natural spell resistance or saving throw wouldn't apply?</FONT></P> <P>just like not all "scouts" do ranged damage,  some are stealthy backstabbers.  I don't quite get how you've never heard of a rogue not "backstabbing" in a fight.  That's been a staple since D&D and nearly all fantasy lore involving rogues.  I'm not sure what kind of "fantasy" you've been reading but it sounds rather wacked.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Rogues are good for stealthy things, and they're great for taking out single targets without a sound, but any DM that lets you "backstab" in a big battle is insane.  The situation simply can't exist, as the other enemy combatants would warn the guy that the rogue is trying to backstab.  If the rogue was invisible via magical means... well, in that case, even a mage would backstab and kill in one hit, without any rogue levels.  I'd say it falls under disabled combatant rolls, and I'd treat it as a coup de grace, or something ad hoc that behaved similarily.  Your mileage may vary.</FONT></P> <P>Tanks being weak against magic wouldn't work either since in a raid or group mob if they got nuked they'd be kissing the pavement and unable to perform their jobs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Didn't you just say that tanks are already weak against magic?<BR></FONT><BR><BR>You're also overassuming that people are so stupid they won't be able to figure out that their class is ment to be a tank.</P> <P>That's irrelevant.  My point is that a new player entering EQ2, and seeing the tagline of "endless possibilities" thrown about, plus all the emphasis on character customizability, PLUS the appearance of a traditional fantasy setting, would never consider that their job is solely to stand there and take damage.</P> <P>If they don't learn it within the first 20 levels they're going to nicely alienate themselves from the server like some tanks have on mines.  If you're actually building your tank to do sorely dps then you're most likely sacraficing your ability to tank better which is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and you're setting yourself up to get picked over in a group.  Nobody likes a tank that thinks his a scout or a mage that thinks he can tank and so on.  People who can't do their jobs get kicked rather quick which is what I like about EQ2 compaired to WoW.  A lot of people on WoW are complete idiots with very few people that can even group intelligently.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>That's a game design problem, not a problem with the player.  If a player has the ability to [Removed for Content] himself by following a logical and, generally, standard course of progression, the class design (or, at least, the tutorials and training) need to be seriously rethought.<BR></FONT><BR>And now you're bashing EQ2's combat engine and comparing it to HL2?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Uh, no, I'm not.  I was pointing out the differences between a new player's expectations and Norrath.  Since you have continually misread what I've written, I'm going to point it out in all caps so that you might, by chance, actually read it: STOP READING MY WORDS AND ASSUMING I MEAN SOMETHING I DO NOT SIMPLY SO THAT YOU CAN ARGUE AND SHOUT "NOOB".  Read them in their entirety, attempt to grasp my point(s), and respond, like everybody else.</FONT></P> <P>Jesus christ....I bet you think Counter-Strike has more strategy than EQ2 also.  Sorry, but EQ2 will have more strategy than a FPS would in it's pinky. Even with EQ2's bland combat system, it utterly crushes HL2 in terms of using your brain to win a fight.  HL2, like most FPSs, boils down to reflexes and aim in the end.  Sure there's minor puzzle solving but if you can point and click on the big nasties on screen then you'll win. You're again assuming the player base is idiotic and that they don't know they've picked up an online RPG.  The isle of refuge and the first 20 levels is there to educate them quite throughly that this isn't a FPS and how to play it. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was referring to the physics engine and artifical intelligence in Half-Life 2.  I didn't say it had to be first-person (Source does not require that [see the most recent Vampire game for proof]), and more importantly, I didn't say it had to be a shooter.  The two genres are completely different.  I didn't say to make EQ2 like Planetside.  I said a more realistic world model is what is expected, and Norrath is much, much different.  This is not a flaw, nor did I say it was.  I was using a comparison to a well-known model (real life/HL2) to a arbitrary model (EQ2) in order to help show where the confusion for new players making uberdamage tanks (which cannot really exist in EQ2, but could exist [and exist FAIRLY] in real life/HL2).  I wasn't going off-topic, as you seem to assume.</FONT></P> <P><BR>I really don't feel sorry for anyone crying that their tank isn't going to do massive dps anymore.  If you read the manual and been through the first 20 levels then they should know what their role is and it sure as hell ain't outdamaging scouts and mages.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And if they soloed to 50 before joining a guild?  You write off the time to 20 as if it is trivial.  If the original poster's choice of build was invalid in EQ2, he should have known that five minutes into the game (or sooner!).  Again, I'm not saying tanks should outdamage everybody.  My point is that if SOE wants to enforce that tanks <STRONG>can't</STRONG> outdamage <STRONG>anybody</STRONG>, they clearly need to make that more clear to a new player.<BR></FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> encanta wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><snip></P> <P>"Fighters enjoy the thick of the fray, often absorbing the brunt of attacks while taking the battle to the enemy directly. Fighters wear a variety of armor, and employ a host of weapons and combat arts to defeat enemies."</P> <P>Nothing there says high damage to me.</P> <P></snip></P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The problem, encanta, is that nothing there implies low damage either.  My point was never that the manual says fighters do uberdamage.  My point was that, coupled with traditional fiction and the two lines the manual provides, it's not unreasonable to expect to be able to decent damage in a fight.  If such expectations are not unreasonable, they should not be destroyed in a patch later on because the player "should have known better."</P> <P>I'm going to sum up my previous points in three sentences, bolded in part for easy reading, so that maybe my arguments become a little more clear: My point is <STRONG>not</STRONG> that tanks should be the ultimate damage dealers.  My point is simply that since tanks were <STRONG>never</STRONG> discouraged from thinking they could do decent damage, and in fact <STRONG>are able </STRONG>to do pretty good damage currently if built properly, somebody who comes on the boards with <STRONG>a legitimate worry</STRONG> that tank damage might be nerfed in the combat update <STRONG>should not be heckled</STRONG> with cries of "omg noob" and "you should have known haha loser."  Instead, people should demand that, <EM>if </EM>said nerfs occur, SOE better address the issue of misbranding that occurs in the manual and on the Isle of Refuge.</P>

[CasombraHellstalk]

<P>Ok I have a question and I had put it on another forum here but will repeat it because I am very curious:</P> <DIV>Ok I do have a question in this... I play a defiler... where do we fit in on all these changes? I mean our dots are crappy, our healing is crappy, our wards are half [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and our buffs basically suck.... tell me over genuine curiosity, where does defilers fit in anywhere? The Shaman in EQ1 were some of the best buffers and the best slower in the game.... we were very much needed and wanted in any raid or group... now we are just a percentage of usefullness. Basically a poorly designed back up healer. Very few times have I really gotten to be a defiler in any raid... all I am there is to chain heal... not dot, not slow, but heal. Is there any changes for us in the future to look forward to?</DIV>

[Suta]

<P>Fixing classes and the combat changes may be a good thing. But we shouldn't comment unless we are testing them on Test server, or just wait and see what happens when it's released, -then- give feedback.</P> <P>I do like the idea of a re-attune your class if the combat changes totally destroy your char (In your mind), but I'd limit it to one char per account and not every char.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[dopr]

<P>-- Thank you Aldelbert --</P> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>"I fail to understand how exactly tanks/fighters are "weak" when they're pretty much required to beat all major encounters within the game.  It's knee jerk posts like this that really irk me to death.  Are you even thinking logically? They're one of the most required archtypes to have next to the healer.  If a group loses it's dps or mage then it's no big deal but the second that healer or tank leaves it halts. </DIV> <DIV>Some of the comments in this thread astound me so far.  You people are seriously expecting to be able to dish out better DPS than a scout and have tons of hp/mitigation too? Just...Wow...."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a 40 zerk and fully expect to be pounded by whatever runs across our group/raid.  My purpose in the group is to stand face-to-face with the enemy and take the punches while others heal (healers) and others slay away (scouts / mages).  My blade is only their to assist with the massacre but in no case should I be able to slaughter them myself. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can understand the frustration of others but think that some of the radio shack 1st person shooters and single player games pale in comparison to a MMORG like EQ2.  Of course those others require high everything to complete the game but team work in groups and raids need and always will function differently. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Patience grasshopper patience -- all good things come to those who wait (and see)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by dopr on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:19 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by dopr on <span class=date_text>08-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 PM</span>

[dopr]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aldelbert wrote:<BR>I fail to understand how exactly tanks/fighters are "weak" when they're pretty much required to beat all major encounters within the game.  It's knee jerk posts like this that really irk me to death.  Are you even thinking logically? They're one of the most required archtypes to have next to the healer.  If a group loses it's dps or mage then it's no big deal but the second that healer or tank leaves it halts. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>My point was that because this fiction differs so widely from typical fiction, and, more pertinantly, doesn't make that differentiation clear from the start (play Isle of Refuge again; the trainer doesn't say "as a fighter, you'll be expected to stand there and taunt while everybody else does the work), somebody who has a legitimate complaint about changes to the system that could reduce the damage-dealing potential of a fighter, especially a fighter that's been specially built to do damage and NOT tank, should not be heckled or flamed for said complaint.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would agree with this as well.  But if everyone would have taken their time to read posts, manuals, EQ2's website they would have gotten a better understand of how MMORG.  Now I realize that most men, myself being one of them, don't like to read manuals or get instruction we have to own up to the fact that the data is there...we just fail to read it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Excerpt from EQ2 website (sorry Sony)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Warriors utilize heavy armor and weapons to safeguard their companions and inflict damage upon the enemy.  They stand bravely at the forefront of battle, striking fear into the hearts of their opponents."  Not shattering skulls. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and aid the defense of their allies..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Paladians are cruscaders for all things good and right.  Wearing heavy armor, these valiant defenders..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could continue on but I fear that most of us will once again fail to read the description of the classes we have selected.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can be frustrated but only at yourself for not choosing wisely.  You had to wonder as a pally when you picked up that sword that was doing great damage how you were to balance that with your defensive nature and spells and while only having limited damage spells.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by dopr on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:19 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by dopr on <span class=date_text>08-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 PM</span>

[RaptorBite]

<DIV>Am i the only one that has heard this?, am i crazy, did i imagine it??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I heard that fighters will be given different stances for different situations (one for Defense, one for Offense, ect)</DIV> <DIV>So no fear, you should not be useless if you are not the MT.</DIV>

[Giral]

<DIV>k lets try this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>at lvl 34 SK i could solo  A lvl 40 nightblood they are red to me so shouldn't be possible but could win with relative ease</DIV> <DIV>i have decent gear and all adept 1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so say i can solo a lvl 39 at lvl 34 the 4 lvl diffrent gives me great exp solo</DIV> <DIV>i would have to solo about 5 to 6 lvl 34 to get the same exp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if they Redo the Exp you get for fighting something your own lvl (Solo) since now you might actually die from it and make it eqivelent to risking your life tankin somethin 4 lvl's higher than you then thats fine by me .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with my wizzy at lvl 34 i couldn't solo the lvl 40 nightbloods i could take the 39's very very risky</DIV> <DIV>but i could take  lvl 39  dyrad solos but couldn't  take them with my SK</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in the present game soloing alot i have roamed around till i find something that my char can solo and have a good hard fight with some mobs my SK can take that wizz can't and vice-verse as it should be</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i cant just go solo anything in the game with my Sk at lvl 38 i nearly die to lvl 36 wizzy fairies in zek they put the beat down on me big time and rarely have i been able to take a ^ char and only 2 times have i won against a blue ^^ solo blightrat at lvl 38</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now if i have to learn new technics and fight things at my same lvl then so be it but the rewards should be the same as riskin your neck as you did tryin to take somethin much bigger and stronger than yourself before</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>whats the fun or thrill of tryin to kill something really hard if the reward is not worth the effort and whats the fun of fighting something your same lvl and still gettin squat for it , when befor the reward was worth the risk of using what you learned playing your char and the lay of the land and the monsters that were around to your advantage it is exciting to know you could die in this fight that it is gion to be really close but if you pull it off then maybe you get 1 % exp +.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If they make us all weaker and dont make the rewards for killin things that we have killed befor with great ease Better,then thats like buyin a 4x4 Truck with a Hemi v-8 in it then a year later the company comes and tells you they gave you the wrong motor and switches it out to a 1 cylinder moped motor "would you want your money back?" (Yes)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If instead they rebuild the motor saying they made some miscalculations in the build process and now it will be even better than befor and they dont want any extra money for it you will feel like they got the short end of the deal (Yes)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in 1 aspect with the re-vamp it could be the greatest thing in the world not only could it be a greater experiance for all players</DIV> <DIV>it could be like getting a brand new game after playing this one for a year ;  )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In another aspect this could be the end of the game becuase if it isn't done correctly all the people who have been waiting for things to be fixed that haven't will be totally (insert bad word here) . And all the people who learned how to play the game as it is now will be (insert bad word here also) so who will be left ? a few dedicated players and a few people who's chars are finally better than befor ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am at the same time excited Becuase i love suprises and Mortified becuase i love playin the game just how it is</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So GoodLuck to you SOE hope you get it right the Second time let me refraze that I PRAY Pray Pray pray you get it right</DIV> <DIV>no pressure but "Don't screw it up "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Deadjest]

<DIV>The major problem that the present combat system has is how massive the difference is between the class.  Which is far more then it should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They seperate medium and heavy armor far more then they should.   Medium armor such as Chain and such happens to be good amor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another issue is the fact that RPGs don't translate well to MMOs.   Rogues in many games ( which is realistic ) basicly do about avg damage and have nasty situational spike damage, but where they shine is where all their none Rogue combat skills come into play.   But those extra skills don't come into play here, so we are stuck with just DPS as a seperation of meele class's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But basicly  Scouts don't tanks as well as they should which is very unrealistic, they should tank decent with the heavy tanks just tanking much better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If things were balanced as they should be, off of chain armor, I think it would be easier to deal with the seperation in class's when it comes to DPS.  More or less Rogues should not be doing more then 30% more damage and that is from the side/back then a Tank should or you will constantly have balance characters and in mobs vs characters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think what needs to be done is the Scout skill list needs to be really revamped instead on constantly looking at DPS as the end all be off of class seperation.   Make Traps more serious and not high lightable just so that any tom [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and harry can see it but it takes a Scouts skill to bring it to light and disarm it.  Even the chests that show up as mobs should not show up till you open it.   There should be a suprise even for the Scouts when they go to disarm it and suddenly the group has to jump in and defend the Rogue that is now suddenly under attack, but there are many things that can be done withing present technological limits we now have to make Scouts more viable vie skills then just the pure DPS limit that has been self imposed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That pretty much the heart of the MMOs problems is the limits that are imposed on the class's and how we constantly use DPS as the defining features.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Armor needs to be balanced more vs Armor and Weapons need to have a standard that works for all.   A weapon no matter whos hands it is in should do the same damage.  What seperates them is the stats one has such as Str for added damage and Agilty for added hit probabilty which it to has a effect on DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After that, it should be the Combat Arts that start to define where the true seperation in a Character comes from in the forms of DPS, Defense, and Utility.</DIV> <DIV>Utility should be the Rogues shining feature and DPS to a lesser degree.   The game just needs to make it where Rogues are more useful then just the standard DPS vs Tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But thats basicly it, Rogues just don't have enough Utility so we are stuck with DPS defining them.</DIV>

[Claritin]

<P>I agree... Re-Attune would be really nice.... currently alot of people have tried to work within the current mechanics of the game to provide use to thier class on raids... Bruisers being a shining example of what NOT TO DO... they have become 100% dedicated to DPS... so lets skip the paladin argument... lets skip to the pure most outstanding example of "suckage"  THE BRUSIER.</P> <P>The Bruiser stood 0 chance of tanking on a raid... same with monks... even in a group the tanking was difficult becauee when they got hit they got hit HARD... so 2 bad "rolls" on the avoidence in a row could make you hit the floor and never ever get back up.... it's a "luck of the dice" tank... something you never ever place 23 other members of a raid behind.</P> <P>So they looked at what they COULD do... which was decent DPS.... they started sacrficing DEF for DPS left and right... grabbing anything they could... they have abandoned leather for light things like Tranix Crown, GEBs, and Robe of the Invoker...</P> <P>Um... what?  Yeah... tanks BACKWARDS STEPPING in terms of defensive ability... completely backwards.... and often sold thier old gear or never purchased it because they were such bad tanks no one ever asked them to do it.</P> <P>Now it comes time to revamp combat... you have Bezerkers such dual wielding nice scout weaps they won't need... you have priests wearing some fabled plate that didn't have STR but is high in WIS... WIS now being a factor from what I understand in spell mitigation... mitigation being a tank role.  Many of these people would love to swap gear around after the revamp... make sure the right classes are in the RIGHT gear.... they can sell the loot back to the guild bank for points in hopes of buying someone else's gear right back outta the pool.  I would love to be able to do this for my guild... we are built more on freiendship than most guilds and we know what has to be done to succeed... and re-gearing is important.</P> <P>I personally have made some bad choices... I have alot of "Procing" armor... I thought it would help me solo... but I dodge ALOT... it never procs.  I know many shaman who would LOVE to proc like this... I know tanks who would love my bracers... but it's too late... they are ATTUNED... I can not strip them off...  so many raids to win them... so little worth to me.</P> <P>Please allow an un-attuning of fabled items... 1-2 times... with a display on the item of it's number of "un-attune" charges.</P>

[Keegant]

<DIV>Aldelbert said that mages could wipe the floor with tanks in this game. What game is that? Because in EQ2, in a duel situaltion, I don't think anything can beat most tanks. If the caster gets real lucky they can get you rooted and nuked before you can get the stifle off, but after that the caster is toast. It would only take a tank a few hits to drop them. The uber leet masive damaging warlock is the exception to this as they can kill a tank in 2 spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played both a tank and a caster but my main is a wizzy. I like to talk smack about how my wizzy can take out the tanks in my guild, but I know that I am kidding myself.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Keegantir on <span class=date_text>08-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>