Two Thumbs up for the new Guild's patron system !

[Jor]

<DIV>I thought it was time someone from a casual guild, said it !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Except for High Level Guilds that complains that it will be 'too easy' for others to join them, I think most casual players are truly delighted about this !!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly, risks of guild 'spaming' alts to increase status ? Only hard core, no RL life players could do that...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I see is that I play in a small, but nice guild, where many original patrons have left EQII... Now we either loose our small 15th level or have to work twice as hard to raise the guild... </DIV> <DIV>Where's the fun ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Two thumbs up ! Excellent change ! </DIV>

[Desulto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jorun wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly, risks of guild 'spaming' alts to increase status ? Only hard core, no RL life players could do that...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL...hardcore players are not make-believe. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[slippery]

I really like it personally. Yes, I completely understand that it can and will be abused. I'm in the military, as a consequence I deploy. When I'm home I play a lot and I like to contribute to my guild as much as I can. I'm always crafting things for my guild and I'm currently the 5th highest patron in my guild. So, what happens in a couple months when I deploy again and I'm gone for months? I screw my guild because I'm going to be inactive and it is going to hurt to depatron me or they all gain less because I'm not around? I'm sorry I lead a lifestyle where I can't sit at a computer every day of the year, but I don't think I or my guild should be punished because of the fact that I have to go fight a war for months at a time... Other people have lives and jobs that take them away from the game, why should they be punished and not be able to contribute when they can without hurting their guild? <div></div>

[Desulto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jorun wrote:<BR> <DIV>I thought it was time someone from a casual guild, said it !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Except for High Level Guilds that complains that it will be 'too easy' for others to join them, I think most casual players are truly delighted about this !!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly, risks of guild 'spaming' alts to increase status ? Only hard core, no RL life players could do that...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I see is that I play in a small, but nice guild, where many original patrons have left EQII... Now we either loose our small 15th level or have to work twice as hard to raise the guild... </DIV> <DIV>Where's the fun ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Two thumbs up ! Excellent change ! </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've been giving this some thought over the weekend.  I think that you're right.  While the system is open to exploitation, it will only be exploited by people with the time and manpower to do so, i.e. the hardcore guilds.  Since the majority (if not all) of the hardcore guilds are against this system, then I would expect them NOT to exploit it simply because they disagree with it on principal.</P> <P>So, casual guilds CAN'T abuse it and hardcore guilds SHOULDN'T abuse it...especially if they think doing so would be an exploit.</P> <P>Self policing at it's finest.  I could see bot groups leveling guilds to 30 and selling them on ebay or IGE, but I doubt it.  The time needed to level a guild to 30 probably wouldn't be worth what someone would be willing to pay for a level 30 guild, especially if purchased with in-game currency (I'm <U>guessing</U> the price point would be $500+ in RL currency on IGE based on the number of man hours needed to achieve level 30).  The only guilds with that type of buying power are the hardcore guilds, and they wouldn't do it because of the above paragraph.</P> <P>Perhaps this change isn't as catastrophic as it seems.  It does mean that every guild will be 30 someday.  Is that a bad thing?  Jury is still out for me on that one.</P> <P>Peace.<BR></P>

[Thesp]

Personally I don't think the change helps a casual guild but it makes it really easy for a large guild to level quickly. Essentially with the new system, every member's heritage quests is potential guild xp, thus, theres no reason a guild can't have everyone contributing heritage quests. This puts large guilds at a distinct advantage over small guilds. There needs to be something added to keep larger guilds in check when it comes to hotswapping patrons. Suppose if once you patronized someone, you couldn't depatron them for 2-3 months, if they're only there for a one time contribution, they'll only slow down everyone else.

[Desulto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR>Personally I don't think the change helps a casual guild but it makes it really easy for a large guild to level quickly. Essentially with the new system, every member's heritage quests is potential guild xp, thus, theres no reason a guild can't have everyone contributing heritage quests. This puts large guilds at a distinct advantage over small guilds. There needs to be something added to keep larger guilds in check when it comes to hotswapping patrons. Suppose if once you patronized someone, you couldn't depatron them for 2-3 months, if they're only there for a one time contribution, they'll only slow down everyone else. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It definitely favors the larger guilds for sure.  I know of quite a few guilds that have non-patrons with heritages to turn in that haven't yet because they're waiting for a patron spot to open up.  I don't think any of them are close enough to 30 yet to ding all the way there, but I could see them getting 2-3 levels easily.</DIV>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Desultory wrote: <P>While the system is open to exploitation, it will only be exploited by people with the time and manpower to do so, i.e. the hardcore guilds. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>No, it can easily be exploited by large guilds, casual or hardcore matters not.</FONT></P> <P>Since the majority (if not all) of the hardcore guilds are against this system, then I would expect them NOT to exploit it simply because they disagree with it on principal.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>No, hardcore guilds actually want this, it means that when they burn out their current patrons they don't lose the xp.</FONT></P> <P>So, casual guilds CAN'T abuse it and hardcore guilds SHOULDN'T abuse it...especially if they think doing so would be an exploit.</P> <P>Self policing at it's finest.  I could see bot groups leveling guilds to 30 and selling them on ebay or IGE, but I doubt it.  The time needed to level a guild to 30 probably wouldn't be worth what someone would be willing to pay for a level 30 guild, especially if purchased with in-game currency (I'm <U>guessing</U> the price point would be $500+ in RL currency on IGE based on the number of man hours needed to achieve level 30).  The only guilds with that type of buying power are the hardcore guilds, and they wouldn't do it because of the above paragraph.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>History shows that people will exploit/min-max/whatever in whatever the current system is, regardless of playstyle. If someone wants to buy a level 30 guild, they will, they have no scruples in such matters.</FONT></P> <P>Perhaps this change isn't as catastrophic as it seems.  It does mean that every guild will be 30 someday.  Is that a bad thing?  Jury is still out for me on that one.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>This change is a huge fundamental shift from the current system. The current system is a function of a guilds ability to manage their patrsons, the changed system is merely a function of time.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Desultory wrote:</P> <P>It definitely favors the larger guilds for sure.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Which was the whole point from the get-go, put all guilds on an equal footing, size will not trivialise guild leveling. Have the guild you want and still be able to compete. This change, as has been stated so far, gives large guilds a sizable advantage over a small guild. That shouldn't be allowed to go live.</DIV>

[Margen]

<P>Simply putting a timer in place for no ability to repatron for one or two months I would think avoid most of the abuse that is the fear, with some justifiction I agree.  There are some guilds/players that will use any loop hole to make themselves more 'uber' in their minds.  </P> <P>But some change also is warrented from the current system IMO.  Example, guidie who happens to be my brother, has just been deployed for eight months, he was very active in gaining status, and fullfilled the responsibilities of his patron status.  But through no fault of his own he will not be able to contribute for the time he is out of the country.  And with the current system, if you are not contributing you are acting as a drag on guild advancement unfortuntly, but you can't remove someone temporarly due to the lose of status.</P> <P>So having a resonible timer on repatron should avoid most of the abuse, mind you not saying all but most.</P> <P>V/R</P> <P>Blackoath</P>

[Mycka]

<DIV>how about an xp debt for guilds too?</DIV>

[Dyeana]

<P>I personally like the change too.</P> <P> </P> <P>WHile the lager guilds can abuse it or not, the majority of guilds are not large bu small.  The larger guilds have preference or already abuse the system, so nothing changes there.  </P> <P> </P> <P>I still hate the way the current patron system divides up a guild into those who "benifit" the guild also know as the patrons, and those deadweights - the non-patrons.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Dye</P>

[Ildarus]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thespar wrote:<BR>Personally I don't think the change helps a casual guild but it makes it really easy for a large guild to level quickly. Essentially with the new system, every member's heritage quests is potential guild xp, thus, theres no reason a guild can't have everyone contributing heritage quests. This puts large guilds at a distinct advantage over small guilds. There needs to be something added to keep larger guilds in check when it comes to hotswapping patrons. Suppose if once you patronized someone, you couldn't depatron them for 2-3 months, if they're only there for a one time contribution, they'll only slow down everyone else. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Here is my 2cp. I would have to say it is about time. I am part of a casual guild we are bouncing up and down in levels. We have several patrons that have been part of the guild since it's inception, but have dissappeared. They have not played in months. If and when Sony does a sweep and deletes these characters we will loose half of our SP. We have it on good authority that the owners of the characters no longer have an account w/ Sony.This new patron system will clear up that issue. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who cares if it benefits the large guilds because this is what the smaller casual guilds need. The large guilds are going to be large whether this new patron system is in place or not. It is obvious that the larger guilds have people that have lots of time to play and it will not matter. They are a large guild because of the time they can put in, not how the patron system works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, this is just my 2cp.<BR></DIV>

[Tockl]

<P>To repair a broken system, people are very eager to accept a bandaid where a lobotomy is due.</P> <P>I am all for allowing guilds to keep the SP 'donated' when a person was a member.  I am NOT for allowing some guilds to have advantages over others based solely on raw numbers.  Levelling a guild is suppsed to be a challenge, and attaining level 30 an accomplishment.  The proposed changes will trivialize this entire process, devalueing all the work that those in smaller guilds have to put in.  </P> <P>This is a short-sighted solution, and will destroy the guild system completely.</P> <P>Gipp</P>

[Jam]

<FONT size=3></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#000000> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>The exploit does not just benefit hardcore/large guilds, this can be used for any guild with more than 12 players including alts, and it is very simple.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>As long as your guild only ever has 12 or less patrons at any one time, the patrons will be contributing the max amount of status to the guild for any writ or heritage quest they complete, which will use the current formula or 1/12 x personal status.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>This means when ever anyone completes a heritage quest or is completing a lot of writs you make them a patron, when they finish you de-patronize them, the end result will mean that all status from all members of the guild will go towards guild exp as if you only had 12 patrons in the current system.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>To give you an idea of how much easier it will be to get to 30 with the new system:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>24 guild members completing all their heritage quests using the above exploit will contribute double the guild xp as 24 patrons in the current system.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3>My opinion is there needs to be some sort of debt/restriction on re-patronizing guild member to make this work</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT></P></FONT></DIV>

[Drefane]

<DIV>As a member of a smaller more casual style guild who has worked his butt off to help it to level I now see this as even more of a good thing.  Through hard work and many many writs and heritage quests we attained level 25 last weekend.  We dont make anything mandatory including raiding.   This weekend out of the blue two of our higher level patrons announced that we dont have the "level of commitment that they are looking for"  they gave us 8 hours to get our lvl 25 items purchased and removed themselves dropping us from 25.25 to 23.75 in one big hit.  So yeah that really sucked.  I dont begrudge someone who decides that they need to find a different gaming experience but the current system seriously penalized my guild this weekend.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before anyone says anything yes it was suggested that maybe they give us some time to see if this patch went live this week.  They were unwilling to do this so a level and a half of guild experience gone.  Can people exploit it?  sure  heck you all have come up with about 30 different ways since it got put onto test.  But I think the "spirit" of the patch is to keep this sort of thing from happening.  </DIV>

[Kizee]

<DIV>Worst idea ever. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They really need to leave something hard to reach in this game. :smileysad:</DIV>

[Midomiko]

<P>I'll say outright that I am all in favor of this change going live, as is the majority of my guild (the rest haven't logged in to find out about it yet).  We are a "hardcore casual" guild - lots of time to play but not into constant raiding, 14 active members plus alts, etc.</P> <P>I would add something for all to consider:  in approximately 2 months time the expansion is to be released, along with the guild level cap being raised.  In order to justify to themselves and management the effort put into adding new guild-related content, wouldn't it make more sense to make it so that more players are actually able to have a realistic chance at getting to it, especially as part of a paid expansion?  </P> <DIV> <P>For all those worried about this change trivializing the achievement of being guild level 30, doesn't the very existence of a higher guild level (cap raise to 40, 50 or whatever) do that in a much more substantial manner?  We can already see how difficult it was to get from 25 to 30 by sheer volume of status points earned, if we continued under the old system we would eventually hit a point where writs had almost no value at all and heritage gains would either be non-existant (12 patrons period through all levels), or show such a small return that all members/patrons would become discouraged to the point of not bothering.</P> <DIV>We see many occasions where new parts of the game are unlocked, new quests are discovered and posted about (and even complimented), then occasionally a dev responds happy that their work has been noticed and appreciated - wouldn't it make sense that the effort being put into new guild levels and rewards/purchase options could stir up a sense of pride in those devs to know that more people are seeing the work they have done and enjoying it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To all the "we had to level our guild in the blinding snow uphill both ways" players, take pride in the fact you earned your guild levels when it was truly difficult, know that your efforts are not being cheapened because other players are able to accomplish that - it really ends up little different than raiding guild X beating some super-mob first, then other guilds coming to the same mob a few months later after several revamps/updates to the encounter making it more doable by those not in full fabled/legendary.</DIV></DIV>

[Ethelwo]

<P>Let me see if I have this right. Everyone agrees that leveling a guild is supposed to be work? Since when is a game supossed to be work. Iisn't it enough work just to level your character? The whole guild leveling system is just more tedium added to the game. Some folks actually do go out of their houses and go to a real job, known as work. The whole preocupation of players that somehow a game has to be another form of work just blows me away. Whats wrong with people these days? Isn't life enough work for you. How about a game that is built around fun and not work for a [Removed for Content] change.</P> <P>Maybe when you get my age you'll be just as burned out on work as I am. In the mean time get a job if you want to work and pay your own expenses. Life is hard, why make a game a part of that hardness. How much work is there in reading a book or watching TV. Games are supposed to be a form of retreat from the RL work we already have, not just another layer of it.</P> <P>I see so many players doing little guild roach choirs, like kill so much of mob X or create a thousand crude hats for guild status. Man look at yourselves. I am certain the developers can do better then this and it seems their trying. So if your all hung up on guild status go take a hard look at yourself in the mirrior and do some real life soul searching, because maybe, just maybe you are becoming something you never wanted to be. Just another Bull with a ring in your nose maybe, Another herd creature to be led around and psycologically owned.</P> <P>I would rather be in a L1 guild that has fun then a L30 guild that does nothing but status choirs every day. Think about it. the whole city status thing should be a side show not the game in and of itself. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Fallnangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Midomiko wrote:<BR> <P>I'll say outright that I am all in favor of this change going live, as is the majority of my guild (the rest haven't logged in to find out about it yet).  We are a "hardcore casual" guild - lots of time to play but not into constant raiding, 14 active members plus alts, etc.</P> <P>I would add something for all to consider:  in approximately 2 months time the expansion is to be released, along with the guild level cap being raised.  In order to justify to themselves and management the effort put into adding new guild-related content, wouldn't it make more sense to make it so that more players are actually able to have a realistic chance at getting to it, especially as part of a paid expansion?  </P> <DIV> <P>For all those worried about this change trivializing the achievement of being guild level 30, doesn't the very existence of a higher guild level (cap raise to 40, 50 or whatever) do that in a much more substantial manner?  We can already see how difficult it was to get from 25 to 30 by sheer volume of status points earned, if we continued under the old system we would eventually hit a point where writs had almost no value at all and heritage gains would either be non-existant (12 patrons period through all levels), or show such a small return that all members/patrons would become discouraged to the point of not bothering.</P> <DIV>We see many occasions where new parts of the game are unlocked, new quests are discovered and posted about (and even complimented), then occasionally a dev responds happy that their work has been noticed and appreciated - wouldn't it make sense that the effort being put into new guild levels and rewards/purchase options could stir up a sense of pride in those devs to know that more people are seeing the work they have done and enjoying it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To all the "we had to level our guild in the blinding snow uphill both ways" players, take pride in the fact you earned your guild levels when it was truly difficult, know that your efforts are not being cheapened because other players are able to accomplish that - it really ends up little different than raiding guild X beating some super-mob first, then other guilds coming to the same mob a few months later after several revamps/updates to the encounter making it more doable by those not in full fabled/legendary.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0099 size=3><STRONG>We are a small guild of 22 players, no alts. We are obviously not a raiding guild (yet) and we are inbetween casual and hardcore.  We are on the verge of Level 20 and have been in existence since June 1st.  We do writs and HQs....lots of them.   As a leader of the guild, I am proud of our players and what they have achieved.  Most of the guild are adults, with lives and jobs and our players have still managed to get to this point.  Our problem?  We WANT to be the "we had to level our guild in the blinding snow uphill both ways" kind of guild.  That is being taken away from us.  We have fun doing writs and we all help each other out, even if we higher players need to mentor down to the lower levels.  </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0099 size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0099 size=3><STRONG>Yes, I think that reaching Level 30 will now be trivialized.  We were looking forward to getting there on our hard work.  Did I mention that this has been done with 12 patrons and only added one more to make 13 two days ago?  While I can see limiting guild level loss might be a good thing, I just don't think making it too easy to level a guild is a good idea either.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0099 size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0099 size=3><STRONG>I think for the most part this change is a bad idea.  It's taking away the pride of accomplishment.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Fallnangel13 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:08 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Fallnangel13 on <span class=date_text>07-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[Eorendil]

I respect your opinion but whether something is hard is really very relative.  I mean, I understand if someone's guild is already thirty and they are a bit miffed that this change might mean that other people won't necessarily have to go through all of that work or do it in the same way.  I know I was a little disappointed in EQL when I felt I had made a major accomplishment or jumped a huge hurdle only to have them drop the bar the next week but then I could always go back and say "hahah.. *I* accomplished that when it was truly challenging.  You have it so easy"  =) For my guild, level 30 will still be some ways off even if we did occasional trading in and out of patrons; not that we'd really have time to work on all those alt writs/HQs.  Its hard work and we're a guild of casual players that have significant RL commitments.  There's plenty of content in the game to challenge us and while I think there should be content to challenge everyone, including hardcore guilds, I don't think we should be considered "less committed" just because we want to enjoy the journey.  If we're willing to invest what time we do have I think we should be able to achieve the same level of accomplishments.  It may just take longer and we may lose people over time to one thing or another because we don't have a meteoric rise to power but why exactly should we be penalized for things beyond our control?  We don't want to have to set or meet a set or artificial requirements designed to drastically bottleneck the game or create an elite group of players.  We want to enjoy playing with other like-minded individuals, as I'm sure you do, though perhaps for other reasons.  It does not make in-game accomplishments any less of a valid reason, just a different one. I really don't want this to turn into another EQL... 3 day raids... 4 or 5 hour setups... If that content is needed to challenge hardcore guilds then find but I don't want it blocking access to large areas of the game. Anyway.. I welcome this change.  If someone enjoys our guild for a time and wishes to move on later but wanted to contribute while they were there we would welcome them and we don't want to resent their leaving because they needed something more.  We like to stay on very good terms with our past members. <span><blockquote><hr>Kizee wrote:<div>Worst idea ever. </div> <div> </div> <div>They really need to leave something hard to reach in this game. :smileysad:</div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Tockl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>Let me see if I have this right. Everyone agrees that leveling a guild is supposed to be work? Since when is a game supossed to be work. Iisn't it enough work just to level your character? The whole guild leveling system is just more tedium added to the game. Some folks actually do go out of their houses and go to a real job, known as work. The whole preocupation of players that somehow a game has to be another form of work just blows me away. Whats wrong with people these days? Isn't life enough work for you. How about a game that is built around fun and not work for a [Removed for Content] change.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, I believe most people agree that levelling a guild should be a <EM><STRONG>challenge</STRONG></EM>.  Part of the fun of a game is the <EM><STRONG>challenge</STRONG></EM> of not being given a level 50 character, titles and all.</P> <P>EQ2 isn't Doom, and if it gets any more dumbed down, I won't be around much longer.  Because it just won't be --- FUN.</P>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eorendil wrote:<BR>I respect your opinion but whether something is hard is really very relative.  I mean, I understand if someone's guild is already thirty and they are a bit miffed that this change might mean that other people won't necessarily have to go through all of that work or do it in the same way.  I know I was a little disappointed in EQL when I felt I had made a major accomplishment or jumped a huge hurdle only to have them drop the bar the next week but then I could always go back and say "hahah.. *I* accomplished that when it was truly challenging.  You have it so easy"  =)<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My guild isnt level 30 yet... it just trivalizes all the work we put into the guild level when the huge guilds are just gonna pass us with ease when this goes thru. The reason the way it was set up was to make it equal footing for large and small guilds.</P> <P>I don't mind them dropping the bar on a few things but seems like they are dropping the bar on just about everything in this game. You need to have SOMETHING to strive for....if not than whats the point of playing.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>Let me see if I have this right. Everyone agrees that leveling a guild is supposed to be work? Since when is a game supossed to be work. Iisn't it enough work just to level your character? The whole guild leveling system is just more tedium added to the game. Some folks actually do go out of their houses and go to a real job, known as work. The whole preocupation of players that somehow a game has to be another form of work just blows me away. Whats wrong with people these days? Isn't life enough work for you. How about a game that is built around fun and not work for a [Removed for Content] change.</P> <P>Maybe when you get my age you'll be just as burned out on work as I am. In the mean time get a job if you want to work and pay your own expenses. Life is hard, why make a game a part of that hardness. How much work is there in reading a book or watching TV. Games are supposed to be a form of retreat from the RL work we already have, not just another layer of it.</P> <P>I see so many players doing little guild roach choirs, like kill so much of mob X or create a thousand crude hats for guild status. Man look at yourselves. I am certain the developers can do better then this and it seems their trying. So if your all hung up on guild status go take a hard look at yourself in the mirrior and do some real life soul searching, because maybe, just maybe you are becoming something you never wanted to be. Just another Bull with a ring in your nose maybe, Another herd creature to be led around and psycologically owned.</P> <P>I would rather be in a L1 guild that has fun then a L30 guild that does nothing but status choirs every day. Think about it. the whole city status thing should be a side show not the game in and of itself.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>/shrug</P> <P>Some people like to develop thier character and "work" to get something done as a group. You can't have everything handed to you in life...or a game.</P> <P>You don't NEED to level your guild to 30.... it's just a goal and a status thing to be level 30. If they put this change thru then it will be just another "ho hum" thing when everybody looks the same, has the same equip, has the same guild level, has the same spells...ect ect. I don't know about the rest of you but I like to be different than other people. :smileysad:</P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Kizee on <SPAN class=date_text>07-19-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:06 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class=date_text>07-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span>

[Naggyba]

I love the new system. It gives those people that have ground out thousands of writs, a chance to swap out and get some fresh blood in there, without loosing levels. I mean especially higher level guilds where the patrons, I am sure, have been burnt out for quite some time grinding writs day in and day out for the last 8 months.Why should a guild loose the hard work that has already been accomplished? That's like taking away a company's profits they earned from the work of an employee because that employee quit or something.We worked hard to get to 30. We shouldn't loose it because someone is tired of grinding thousands of writs. It gets old, people get burned out but, that's no reason the guild should loose their work.There is no challenge in leveling a guild. It's nothing more than a grindfest. An endurance test of the writ grinders.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>07-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:29 PM</span>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tockley wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>Let me see if I have this right. Everyone agrees that leveling a guild is supposed to be work? Since when is a game supossed to be work. Iisn't it enough work just to level your character? The whole guild leveling system is just more tedium added to the game. Some folks actually do go out of their houses and go to a real job, known as work. The whole preocupation of players that somehow a game has to be another form of work just blows me away. Whats wrong with people these days? Isn't life enough work for you. How about a game that is built around fun and not work for a [Removed for Content] change.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, I believe most people agree that levelling a guild should be a <EM><STRONG>challenge</STRONG></EM>.  Part of the fun of a game is the <EM><STRONG>challenge</STRONG></EM> of not being given a level 50 character, titles and all.</P> <P>EQ2 isn't Doom, and if it gets any more dumbed down, I won't be around much longer.  Because it just won't be --- FUN.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And doing 1000 writs is a challenge in what sense of the word? A challenge to your gaming ability or your ability to organize a group of people to take on something tough? Or a challenge to your ability to find 12 people willing to kill the same mobs over and over and over and over and over? Or a challenge of the scheduling ability of people with limited time to devote all that limited time to doing nothing but writs once they've completed all their heritage quests if they want their guild to level?</P> <P>I don't consider writs a challenge. To me, they are EXACTLY like playing something like Diablo, except without any immediate gratification. Go to X spot, kill Y mob....rinse, and repeat, and repeat, and repeat. If that's fun to you, then all that time spent on writs should benefit your guild, enabling them to level faster, but it shouldn't be the only way to increase a guild's level past 25. Just kill me now if that's the kind of challenge I'm supposed to be finding fun. The most challenge it is to me is staying awake.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 42 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P>

[GrimStone]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naggybait wrote:<BR>I love the new system. It gives those people that have ground out thousands of writs, a chance to swap out and get some fresh blood in there, without loosing levels. I mean especially higher level guilds where the patrons, I am sure, have been burnt out for quite some time grinding writs day in and day out for the last 8 months.<BR><BR>Why should a guild loose the hard work that has already been accomplished? That's like taking away a company's profits they earned from the work of an employee because that employee quit or something.<BR><BR>We worked hard to get to 30. We shouldn't loose it because someone is tired of grinding thousands of writs. It gets old, people get burned out but, that's no reason the guild should loose their work.<BR><BR>There is no challenge in leveling a guild. It's nothing more than a grindfest. An endurance test of the writ grinders. <P>Message Edited by Naggybait on <SPAN class=date_text>07-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:29 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well put... Bravo.</DIV>

[Eorendil]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kizee wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Eorendil wrote:I respect your opinion but whether something is hard is really very relative.  I mean, I understand if someone's guild is already thirty and they are a bit miffed that this change might mean that other people won't necessarily have to go through all of that work or do it in the same way.  I know I was a little disappointed in EQL when I felt I had made a major accomplishment or jumped a huge hurdle only to have them drop the bar the next week but then I could always go back and say "hahah.. *I* accomplished that when it was truly challenging.  You have it so easy"  =) <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>My guild isnt level 30 yet... it just trivalizes all the work we put into the guild level when the huge guilds are just gonna pass us with ease when this goes thru. The reason the way it was set up was to make it equal footing for large and small guilds.</p> <p>I don't mind them dropping the bar on a few things but seems like they are dropping the bar on just about everything in this game. You need to have SOMETHING to strive for....if not than whats the point of playing.</p> <blockquote> <hr> Ethelwolf wrote: <p>Let me see if I have this right. Everyone agrees that leveling a guild is supposed to be work? Since when is a game supossed to be work. Iisn't it enough work just to level your character? The whole guild leveling system is just more tedium added to the game. Some folks actually do go out of their houses and go to a real job, known as work. The whole preocupation of players that somehow a game has to be another form of work just blows me away. Whats wrong with people these days? Isn't life enough work for you. How about a game that is built around fun and not work for a [Removed for Content] change.</p> <p>Maybe when you get my age you'll be just as burned out on work as I am. In the mean time get a job if you want to work and pay your own expenses. Life is hard, why make a game a part of that hardness. How much work is there in reading a book or watching TV. Games are supposed to be a form of retreat from the RL work we already have, not just another layer of it.</p> <p>I see so many players doing little guild roach choirs, like kill so much of mob X or create a thousand crude hats for guild status. Man look at yourselves. I am certain the developers can do better then this and it seems their trying. So if your all hung up on guild status go take a hard look at yourself in the mirrior and do some real life soul searching, because maybe, just maybe you are becoming something you never wanted to be. Just another Bull with a ring in your nose maybe, Another herd creature to be led around and psycologically owned.</p> <p>I would rather be in a L1 guild that has fun then a L30 guild that does nothing but status choirs every day. Think about it. the whole city status thing should be a side show not the game in and of itself.</p> <div></div> <p></p> <p></p> <hr> <p>/shrug</p> <p>Some people like to develop thier character and "work" to get something done as a group. You can't have everything handed to you in life...or a game.</p> <p>You don't NEED to level your guild to 30.... it's just a goal and a status thing to be level 30. If they put this change thru then it will be just another "ho hum" thing when everybody looks the same, has the same equip, has the same guild level, has the same spells...ect ect. I don't know about the rest of you but I like to be different than other people. :smileysad:</p> <p></p></blockquote> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class="date_text">07-19-2005</span><span class="time_text">10:06 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Kizee on <span class="date_text">07-19-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:06 AM</span></p><hr> I don't think it will trivialize it.. I suppose if the goal is to take advantage of every weakness in the system then, yes (and I don't disagree that there will be peopel that will do that, mostly people with the enormous amounts of time that would have ground out hundreds or thousands of writs anyway) it may in some eyes.  Otherwise, all it does is alleviate some of the insane grind that is writs.. Perhaps with greater variety of ways to earn status it might be different but outside of the finite number of HQs writs are still the prime manner in which guilds progress. My guild will continue to work at things whether this goes live or not and that includes writs.  It isn't going to make or break the game for us and we will reach 30.. probably not much faster or slower than if it does go live but I'd like to see the patron system go away and go to a much more dynamic system such as is being discussed in <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=21710" target=_blank>A simple patronage solution</a>. </blockquote></span><div></div>

[Kizee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashlian wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And doing 1000 writs is a challenge in what sense of the word? A challenge to your gaming ability or your ability to organize a group of people to take on something tough? Or a challenge to your ability to find 12 people willing to kill the same mobs over and over and over and over and over? Or a challenge of the scheduling ability of people with limited time to devote all that limited time to doing nothing but writs once they've completed all their heritage quests if they want their guild to level?</P> <P>I don't consider writs a challenge. To me, they are EXACTLY like playing something like Diablo, except without any immediate gratification. Go to X spot, kill Y mob....rinse, and repeat, and repeat, and repeat. If that's fun to you, then all that time spent on writs should benefit your guild, enabling them to level faster, but it shouldn't be the only way to increase a guild's level past 25. Just kill me now if that's the kind of challenge I'm supposed to be finding fun. The most challenge it is to me is staying awake.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 42 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>If they put this change in then there has to be some way to discourage patron swapping because as of right now it is too easy to exploit.</P> <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kizee wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ashlian wrote:</P> <P><BR>And doing 1000 writs is a challenge in what sense of the word? A challenge to your gaming ability or your ability to organize a group of people to take on something tough? Or a challenge to your ability to find 12 people willing to kill the same mobs over and over and over and over and over? Or a challenge of the scheduling ability of people with limited time to devote all that limited time to doing nothing but writs once they've completed all their heritage quests if they want their guild to level?</P> <P>I don't consider writs a challenge. To me, they are EXACTLY like playing something like Diablo, except without any immediate gratification. Go to X spot, kill Y mob....rinse, and repeat, and repeat, and repeat. If that's fun to you, then all that time spent on writs should benefit your guild, enabling them to level faster, but it shouldn't be the only way to increase a guild's level past 25. Just kill me now if that's the kind of challenge I'm supposed to be finding fun. The most challenge it is to me is staying awake.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 42 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>If they put this change in then there has to be some way to discourage patron swapping because as of right now it is too easy to exploit.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree, and have offered suggestions in about three threads now, I think. I'm most for a vesting system that would require a couple of months remaining as a patron after being made one for the guild to receive the full benefits of your status earned as a patron. If a guild can't receive the full benefits of their patrons unless they leave them as a patron for two and a half months (assuming 10 percent of status earned vested per week they remain a patron) then they wouldn't have the incentive to swap people in and out. Removing someone anytime before that period would result in less status than if they'd waited until full vestment.</P> <P> I don't like the "top 12 contributors are the only ones whose status counts" idea as much because while it allows people to move up into the top 12 from below, so that people can hope to one day become a patron and have their contribution actually count, then it's removing all the benefit from the guild of the person they're displacing. I think the benefit should be cumulative, with some pretty harsh restrictions, and patrons should be allowed to come in and go out after contributing, just not on an hourly, daily, even weekly basis. There should be a form of penalty to prevent abuse, I totally agree with that.</P> <P>But if the only way my guild has to progress after the original set of patrons finishes heritage quests is to do writs, that's not meeting a challenge to me. It's just an endurance test.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 42 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore<BR></P>

[Curati]

I like it because on Mistmoore I have a guild with only 20 members and two of my partons are almost lvl 50 while the rest of us are in our 30s I always feer that they could be snatched up by a raiding guild and we would delevel back to lvl 5 from 10 at the least if that happened. Now if thier path leads them away from us they wont be killin us. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yo</DIV>

[Iseabeil]

<P>Personally, i do not like this change at all...</P> <P>EQ2 was advertised as a game where small guilds were not to be any lesser than big guilds. we have a total of 23 members, mostly alts and we barely fill up the 12 patron slots thats meant to be optimal amount. By being part of an alliance, we have access to friends to group with for hunting, questing and raiding without having to be big ourselves. a guild with just double amount of members, wich is still according to most, small, would be able to level twice as fast as we can, just due to member amount. </P> <P>ill agree there needs to be some change to the current system, but free patron/depatron will make the promise that small guilds will prosper into a lie.</P> <DIV>time limit that has been suggested by others might be a good compromise.</DIV>

[Speak]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=2168" target=top><SPAN>Iseabeil</SPAN></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually the new system will benefil a small guild like yours. People can rotate in and out patronage.  This means all members can share the load. If a real life events comes up or if one of your more active patrons decides to quit and move on, you will not be hurt. When you think of the game's life cycle its foolish to think members will be around for years.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many of the current  Patron concepts were based on the idea in early beta that guilds would be competing with each other.  This changed even before beta was opened to the public. SOE should have made more changes, but the simple fact is they didnt have the time to change the system, now after seeing how it works, they are taking another look at the system.  Now the patron system is  about all you can do is get bragging rights.... and all that means is you have a core group willing to grind and grind out writs.  That doesnt mean the the journey  to L-20, 25, or 30 has anything to do with skill or game playing ability, only the the fact some people have the time and endurance to do so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make things simple, have all members contribute, if you want to make it tougher, put in more complex writs, or level quests, or reduce the number status points per writ if you want a bigger grindstone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Speaker</DIV>

[Naughtesn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Speaker wrote:</P> <P><snip><BR></P> <DIV>.... and all that means is you have a core group willing to grind and grind out writs.  That doesnt mean the the journey  to L-20, 25, or 30 has anything to do with skill or game playing ability, only the the fact some people have the time and endurance to do so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make things simple, ,,,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Speaker</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So if I "don't have the time or endurance" to grind to level 50, I should be given a free pass to do so?  You know, I don't have the time to get my prismatic weapons, please give me a way to do this more easily.  You know, I just don't have the dedication to grind my crafter to 50, please institute a quest I can do so my experience gain can be quadrupled.</P> <P>You want things simpler?  Let's see - they removed guild exp decay, they had high level players able to kill grey mobs ad nauseum to get SPs, they have a writ system which allows you to get double credit for killing one set of mobs, they created a whole niche of solo writs for 40+ characters, they finally added tradeskill writs...shall I go on...</P> <P>I agree this "proposed" change benefits (I'll change the word here - not smaller but) *certain* guilds.  Those guilds that shouldn't be 30 in the first place.<BR></P>

[Thesp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naughtesnec wrote: <P>So if I "don't have the time or endurance" to grind to level 50, I should be given a free pass to do so?  You know, I don't have the time to get my prismatic weapons, please give me a way to do this more easily.  You know, I just don't have the dedication to grind my crafter to 50, please institute a quest I can do so my experience gain can be quadrupled.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't have the time nor endurance to finish my degree and gain experience in a well paying industry, can I just have a six figure job with no qualifications and no responsibility? Afterall, I waste my whole day playing EQ2, I have no time for frivolous things just as school and a career.</DIV>

[Speak]

<DIV>Naughtesnec </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you missed my point here.  The problem with the current system is it locks in a small core group of members into gaining levels for the guild. This means the guild as a whole is dependent on a few.  This means at L-25 if say your largest contributors decide they want the guild to change directions, and you don't  you are up the creek if they decide to move on.  The simple fact in a well run guild all members contribute in many forms, from helping with group hunts in group writs, to providing supplies and support but these members get little personal credit.  I did'nt say make the journey easy to L-30, I said, make it simple and allow all members to earn status points.  There is no real reason to continue with just a core group of members  earning  points.  So some guilds make it to L-30 via a small core group and others make L-30 via a larger group, the journey is still the same, it stil takes x-number of status points to obtain the level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes I am disappointed with the "Let's see - they removed guild exp decay, they had high level players able to kill grey mobs ad nauseum to get SPs, they have a writ system which allows you to get double credit for killing one set of mobs, they created a whole niche of solo writs for 40+ characters, they finally added tradeskill writs...shall I go on..."  No you don't have to, frankly I would like to see more complex  writ quest, rather then recycle over and over the same writs. I'd love to see critter learn, the more you kill them the harder they become. And i would'nt mind seeing leveling  that the guild must do on a hard raiding level at each level.  But we want, because this game is a product, it is meant to appeal to the widest customer base to gain max sales.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The current patron system is a left over from a early beta concept of  non-pvp guild warfare that never saw the light of day and they didnt have time to flesh out the system into something else.</DIV>

[Eorendil]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Naughtesnec wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Speaker wrote:</p><p></p><div></div><div>.... and all that means is you have a core group willing to grind and grind out writs.  That doesnt mean the the journey  to L-20, 25, or 30 has anything to do with skill or game playing ability, only the the fact some people have the time and endurance to do so.</div><div> </div><div>Make things simple, ,,,</div><div> </div><div>Speaker</div><hr></blockquote><p>So if I "don't have the time or endurance" to grind to level 50, I should be given a free pass to do so?  You know, I don't have the time to get my prismatic weapons, please give me a way to do this more easily.  You know, I just don't have the dedication to grind my crafter to 50, please institute a quest I can do so my experience gain can be quadrupled.</p><p>You want things simpler?  Let's see - they removed guild exp decay, they had high level players able to kill grey mobs ad nauseum to get SPs, they have a writ system which allows you to get double credit for killing one set of mobs, they created a whole niche of solo writs for 40+ characters, they finally added tradeskill writs...shall I go on...</p><p>I agree this "proposed" change benefits (I'll change the word here - not smaller but) *certain* guilds.  Those guilds that shouldn't be 30 in the first place.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>Being a little dramatic there aren't you?  This change does help smaller, more casual guilds but you want to know something?  Its really going to help small guilds of hardocore players more.  It isn't a free ticket and its not a perfect solution, yet.  Also, you don't have to grind to 50.  If you chose to do a boring mob grind to fifty that would be entirely your choice in playstyle.  There are an incredible number of quests out there and while many of them may be, "go kill x bees for me," some of them are entertaining and much more fun than not.  They also give a significant boost in experience.  I have a guildy that was, until more recently, in the top five on my server for number of quests completed.  Do you think he played the "grind game" all the way to 48?  I don't think so Tim.Guild exp decay was insane.  Are you truly complaining about it being removed?  I don't think there would be any level thirty guilds if it weren't removed. That writ system you are so quick to point out in the 40+ range is soon to change.  Read your updates.  While there may still be solo writ content there there is solo writ content at almost every writ tier, its just a matter of how hard you want to work at it.  The mobs counting for two writs at once is going to go away very very soon.What, again, is your problem with tradeskill writs?  It is a valid way to play the game, should the crafters of a guild not be able to contribute?  Or, are you wishing to dictate the way everyone else plays this game because that is how you play it and think it should be done?  What exactly is your criteria for what makes a guild "deserving" of someday becoming level 30?  What makes one style of play any less valid than yours? I think there should be things that people, such as yourself, might get to that the rest of us only drool over but I have a problem with that when it blocks access to entire portions of the game or when it promotes a major feeling of hopelessness for those that wish to take some time and smell the roses along the way.  Forgive me if I misjudge you but by the way you speak, and from your guild sig, I can only assume that you must be a hardcore, top end player...</span><div></div>

[Nalhig]

<P>I, for one, will be quite happy when this new patron system hits.  I am a patron in my guild, and have been since November 2004.  I have the 2nd highest contributed status in my guild.  Lately, I have not been enjoying my time spent playing a game that I pay to play.  The reason... my guild has different goals than I do.  It would be wonderful if I could just leave the guild for another that might fit my gaming style... but under the current patron system I am royally screwing all my friends, yes friends, who remain in my old guild.  I am therefore left with a 3 choices...</P> <P>1) Try to restore the fun of the game by joining a guild with similar goals, screwing all my friends in my old guild in the process</P> <P>2) Stay with the guild I'm in, continue playing without having much fun, and satisfy my friends in my guild</P> <P>3) Quit EQ</P> <P>While I agree there is probably a better solution to the problem than what is proposed in this patch, this patch does open up my 4th option:</P> <P>4) Restore fun to the game by joining a new guild without screwing over those who I leave behind, and possibly retain some friends in the process</P> <P>The current patron system is my virtual jail cell... LU 12 is the key to the door.  Reduce the possibility of exploiting the system if you can... but don't walk away with my key!</P>