Keeping the patron system from being abused

[Grond]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>The goal of this is to be a consolidated thread.  I'm taking ideas I've read and posting them in an easy to read manner so people don't have to read pages and pages.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Obviously the change to the patron system can be abused.  Also, it can trivialize, even further, the work that many did to raise their guild levels.  On the other hand it is a decent change.  So, I figured I'd make a thread to shoot out some ideas to keep people from abusing the system.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>1.  This is my personal favorite.  I can't tell you how many times we've lost 28 from one of our biggest contributors leaving due to boredom with the game.  <U>I think it would be best if a guild lost experience, but never a level.  So the lowest you can lose experience is 0 % of your current level.</U>  This way the system can't be abused.  You'll still need a group of patrons to get you each level with their own work without switching people in and out whenever they are going to get the smallest bit of status.  </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>---------------------------</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>2.  Every time you depatron someone or they leave the guild you incur a static amount of debt for the guild.  For example 0 status would incur a 3000 status penalty, but a 100,000 status member would also incur a 3000 status penalty.  </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>3.  A guild debt system.  Just like exp, and crafting works.  If you lose status, rather then lose it you get debt.  You gain status at half until you pay off the debt.  May or may not go down over time.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>4.  Add a buffer before status is contributed to the guild.  For example the first 10 k status a patron contributes to the guild doesn't raise its level at all.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>5.  Guild must pay money every time they patron someone.  Starts off small 1c, but grows every time you patron someone.  Maybe degrades over time.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>6.  Make the Patrons lose personal status when they leave/demoted instead of the guild losing it.  Thus people will want to stay patrons and not lose their status.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>7.  When a member is invited they are a patron.  You can't make people patrons, only depatron them.  (Issues arise of leaving the guild and coming back)</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>8.  Lose a fraction of the status.  ie. 50 %, 75 %.  So switching in and out becomes a tricky number game if you want to come out ahead.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>9.  Lockout timers for patron'ing / depatron'ing people.  Certain number a week/month</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>10.  No status point loss on inactive players (10, 20, 30 days)</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Grondax Ix'Thania of the Shard</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Level 50 Guardian / Level 50 Woodworker</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Guild Leader and Main Tank of Genesis on the Highkeep Server</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><BR>Edited to add ideas.</SPAN></P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Grondax on <SPAN class=date_text>07-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:22 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Grondax on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 AM</span>

[DaenaeRavenso]

<P>Most of the replies on the now 4 page thread are discussing options to this change.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Dae</P>

[Jagar]

<DIV>The current system of patrons either leaving or being demoted does nothing but hurt gulid xp. Why not have two ways to solve this, for example if a patron leaves a guild instead of guild experience/levels lost why  not make it the patron who is leaving lose personal points. Since they are the ones leaving the guild , why should the guild  be punished? And if a guild officers takes a members patron status away then the guild suffers by lost of experience points. By doing it this way the guild officers still have to make it  a good choice on awarding patron status to its members.</DIV>

[Drefane]

<DIV>This was noted somewhere in one of the other threads.  By making a person take personal debt for deciding to leave a guild you punish them for a personal decision on how they choose to have fun in the game.  People leave guilds for many reasons, life changes, guild style changes that dont suit their play, they are just not having fun......many many factors.  To have them incur a status hit for making a decision to change is unfair.  </DIV>

[Tobby]

<div></div>WOOT ! WTS - level 30 guiild 0 members  will transfer leadership to you pst - 50plat Other guilds available for sale as well. !!!   Inventory of  lvl 25 26 27 28 29 and 30 (<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lvl guild for sale.. arangements can be made on ALL severs.. Why bother to level your own guild just /t me at ----- Hmmm..maybe they better rethink this one hard .... <div></div><p>Message Edited by Tobby on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 PM</span>

[SavinDwa]

<DIV>It might help if we make a list of "legimate" reasons why a guild might want to de-patron someone.  Here is my feeble start at the list:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Person has stopped playing EQ2 and no characters are active on the whole account.  This one seems pretty reasonable, why hurt the guild for something like this?  The perrson may have been relocated, lost thier job, ill and in hospital, sent to iraq, lost access to the Internet, etc.  My opinion: If the account is not activity for 30 days then let the guild remove the characters from the guild.  If the player returns then they can not be made a patron again for at least 90 days.  the 90 day restriction is for any character on the account.  In addition, [if technically possible] removing one character for these reasons results in all of the players characters being removed from this guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Person removes their player from a guild in a huff or because they joined another guild.  this seems pretty reasonable, but not as obvious as 1) above.  My opinion:  If the character hass left the guild, and the account has no other characters in the guild then treat it as 1) above.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Player is no longer really playing a character and is now primarily playing a new character.  This seems pretty legitimate and it happens.  It could also be used as a loophole for exploits.  My opinion:  allow this, but a player can only do this for one character once every 6 months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) the player is not playing enough anymore to warrant being a patron [lots of reasons why this might be true].  This happens and is legimate (babies, work load, etc).  My opinion:  Player can be de-patroned, but it de-patrons all characters in the guild and does not allow any of them to return to patron status for 3 months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>***</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are there other legimate reasons ?</DIV>

[rek6779]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grondax wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>1.  This is my personal favorite.  I can't tell you how many times we've lost 28 from one of our biggest contributors leaving due to boredom with the game.  <U>I think it would be best if a guild lost experience, but never a level.  So the lowest you can lose experience is 0 % of your current level.</U>  This way the system can't be abused.  You'll still need a group of patrons to get you each level with their own work without switching people in and out whenever they are going to get the smallest bit of status.  </FONT></SPAN></P> <P></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This still leaves an open door for depatroning/patroning after a ding. Imagine the message, "Your guild is level 21", and then a mass of depatroning/patroning from the leaders to advance growth. i.e. removing those who have no heritages to do, adding alts in. I do like the idea of never loosing a level and only loosing experience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grondax wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN></P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>2.  Every time you depatron someone or they leave the guild you incur a static amount of debt for the guild.  For example 0 status would incur a 3000 status penalty, but a 100,000 status member would also incur a 3000 status penalty.  </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is actually my favorite idea. Though, I don't think a static amount is fair, I think a static % of the current guild level (i.e. it takes 125,000 status to go from 24-25, so a 5% cost is 6,250 status, that way it's not overly penalizing small guilds where 6,250 is 2 1/2 levels at the beginning) should be used. Have that be the cost when someone leaves or is depatroned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Grond]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tobby wrote:<BR> WOOT !<BR><BR>WTS - level 30 guiild <BR><BR>Why bother to level your own guild just /t me at -----<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Tobby on <SPAN class=date_text>07-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:11 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It takes a decent bit of work to get to 30, and I hope it stays that way.  Anyone who trusts a gulid leader to do that is an idiot, and group of people that do that over and over more power to then.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I like the idea of being able to weed patrons out each level.  I see nothing wrong with getting rid of weak patrons, and inactive players each level ding as long as you put the effort in to reach that point.  Really to get to 30 you need more then heritage quests.  Just 12 writs ~ 1 heritage quest.  So it's active/inactive.  Heritage doesn't play too much of a factor.</DIV>

[Tobby]

The system that is in works. Those of us that had the forsight to see issues comming of upset members leaving and deleveling guilds and not placing all members as patrons to work on the guild as a whole now will get penalized. I stated over 7 mnts ago about the guild status and all that there with the current system you can take the fast easy risky way of 12 parons that carry the risk of patrons holding hostage a guild or you can make every member of your guild a patron and level the guild slow and solid. Now that people are paying the price for power leveling guild by taking the risk..  for the reward... they now cry over the deleveling and loss of doing such. Now with the changes because a few short sighted leaders did not forsee the natural workings of guild when you have members with power over others, the rest of the guilds that had many or all patrons to hold a guild stable will have to pay the penelty! A slower leveling guild with many patrons was the stable way to build and bank guild exp. When a few members left the loss was not much as it was spread out well. But for this you work harder and are penalized harshly for taking the over 32 patrons. Why should guilds with FORSIGHT to the ways of players be now hammered by this channge ? You ask how they are hurt? Well we have worked hard under harsh penlilties for our guild level .. where if we had just placed 12 members as patrons and let them hold the guild hostage for thier wishes for fear of removing if thier demands were not met (why most guilds are having issues these days with this current system) we would have maxed level long ago. But with the rules as they were.. the best way to avoid this power play of patrons was to make all members patrons. I run a guild of over 90 partons . We have worked hard to get the levels we are and were looking to the very long run. There are a few other guild that have taken this route as well for the security of the leveling and the risk. WHY now should we be the one penelized for taking the safe but longer route ? WHY because other short sighted leaders that whine alot get thier way? WHY should guild level become so trivial that power level guilds can be bought and sold as they will NEVER delevel NEVER worry about it ? WHY should players have to loose what they have worked for under current systems that ARE working because a few whine because they took the quick easy risky way and lost ? <div></div>

[Deadjest]

<P>It would also be nice if they had a system for guild mergers.</P> <P>Where if one guild merges with another guild, there would be a Guild XP penalty, but as a whole you come out ahead.   And its a XP merger not a Lvl merger.<BR>That way people who were patrons in the guild joining yours would not lose their Patron status to do it and the points that go with it.</P> <P>Patron status and the loss of it to me has been the largest issue and has cause guild and player stagnations.</P> <P>Many people are willing to sit for months and months in a dying or leaderless guild in the hopes that one day, somthing may happen to change their guild around and not all will be lost for them.</P> <P>Everquest is about ever moving foward and the system we now have has not promoted that, but has in effect had a reverse role.</P>

[Zannah]

Status needs to be a 2 way street. Personal status should never go away - certainly you'll spend the points, but the faction you gain still exists.  You are still a helpful member of society. Contributed guild status should be retained by the guild at a specific percentage.  If you leave a guild, its history does not change.  Society will know that specific members are no longer part of that guild thus incurring the partial loss in status. When a person joins another guild their contributed status should be added to that guilds pool at a specific percentage.  That person has brought their personal faction/status/accomplisments with them.  That potential should be recognized somehow. The numbers for status retention have been talked about - 50 to 75% of contributed points sounds fair. Im not sure on how much a new recruit should be able to contribute - 10 to 25%? So - I have 30K points contributed to my current guild.  I leave and they keep 22500pts (75%). I join a new guild as a patron and that guild receives 7500pts (25%). Im sure they can set limits - ie 25% or 20K status, whichever is lower. Joining a guild as a regular member would give them nothing of my contributed points - gotta be at the patron level.  The same penalties/reductions apply for depatroning and repatroning.  If the numbers are worked right there can be a decent penalty for abusing the system, but there is still room for a bit of movement for specific events like turning in a group of Heritage quests. The current system is odd in that it dosent have a memory (tho parts of it do).  Doing enough writs to get titled MUST generate status points - personal and guild.  Drop that guild and your points become unuseable and your contributed points no longer exist.  Your title and faction are still there.  A new guild might as well join someone fresh off the IoR as far as the City is concerned tho - Any status you earned gaining the faction you have only serves to change emotes or get guard salutes.  Nothing you have done contributes to that guild at all - its only what you WILL accomplish that adds points. Royal Accountant Fowler says to Guild X: "Its a shame your guild lost such a fine tank, he helped you accomplish alot - Im sure you'll bounce back with the current fine crew you have." Royal Account Fowler says to Guild Y: "I see you've recruited a fine tank, he helped his last guild accomplish alot - good things are sure to come now that you have added his skills to your ranks." <div></div>

[Kenazeer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tobby wrote:<BR>The system that is in works. <BR><BR>Those of us that had the forsight to see issues comming of upset members leaving and deleveling guilds and not placing all members as patrons to work on the guild as a whole now will get penalized.<BR><BR>I stated over 7 mnts ago about the guild status and all that there with the current system you can take the fast easy risky way of 12 parons that carry the risk of patrons holding hostage a guild or you can make every member of your guild a patron and level the guild slow and solid.<BR><BR>Now that people are paying the price for power leveling guild by taking the risk..  for the reward... they now cry over the deleveling and loss of doing such.<BR><BR>Now with the changes because a few short sighted leaders did not forsee the natural workings of guild when you have members with power over others, the rest of the guilds that had many or all patrons to hold a guild stable will have to pay the penelty!<BR><BR>A slower leveling guild with many patrons was the stable way to build and bank guild exp. When a few members left the loss was not much as it was spread out well. But for this you work harder and are penalized harshly for taking the over 32 patrons. <BR><BR>Why should guilds with FORSIGHT to the ways of players be now hammered by this channge ?<BR><BR>You ask how they are hurt?<BR><BR>Well we have worked hard under harsh penlilties for our guild level .. where if we had just placed 12 members as patrons and let them hold the guild hostage for thier wishes for fear of removing if thier demands were not met (why most guilds are having issues these days with this current system) we would have maxed level long ago.<BR><BR>But with the rules as they were.. the best way to avoid this power play of patrons was to make all members patrons. <BR><BR>I run a guild of over 90 partons . We have worked hard to get the levels we are and were looking to the very long run. <BR><BR>There are a few other guild that have taken this route as well for the security of the leveling and the risk. <BR><BR>WHY now should we be the one penelized for taking the safe but longer route ?<BR><BR>WHY because other short sighted leaders that whine alot get thier way?<BR><BR>WHY should guild level become so trivial that power level guilds can be bought and sold as they will NEVER delevel NEVER worry about it ?<BR><BR>WHY should players have to loose what they have worked for under current systems that ARE working because a few whine because they took the quick easy risky way and lost ?<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have to disagree with this because you make the assumption that all guilds are large. It could be that 12 members is all they have and they work just as hard as you to attain their guild level. They don't lack foresight, they share a different vision of what a guild means to them, and they should not be penalized for being a small guild. I think some changes are needed, not just in the scope of what they are laying out atm.<BR> <p>Message Edited by Kenazeer on <span class=date_text>07-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:14 AM</span>

[Margen]

<P>Easiest way to avoid abuse IMHO, is put some form of time limit on when a character can be repatroned.  That way you aren't jumping from alt to alt to level up a guild too fast.  An example in our guild, our 3rd highest member is getting deployed for 8 months, no ones fault, but the guild will have no imput from him for that time frame.  So changing him out for another guild member that is active til he gets back sounds like a good idea to me.  Make it so if someone is depatroned, they cannot be brought back for a month (or some other time frame).</P> <P>Also make higher level writs worth more then the lower level writs, if a 40th level writ is completed it should be of more importance then a 20th level writ.</P> <P>For people leaving the guild make it so that only percentage is lost from the guild, plus I personnaly would like to see loss of some status for the person myself (not saying all, but again a percentage).  Their should be a cost for guild jumping IMHO.  Just my 2cp.</P> <P>Blackoath</P>

[Os]

<P>Maybe I'm looking at this too simple... but I thought a 1 week lockout timer for any change of status would stop 90% of the abuse.</P> <P>If the legitemate point of depatroning someone is because they are inactive (patron wise or game time) and no longer contributing then more than likely they won't "be back on active status" right after you depatron, so a 1 week lockout really won't effect these people. Once they are back, no biggie in repatroning them. and 1 week really isn't that long.</P> <P>However to depatron (wait 1 week), repatron, turn in heritege quest, wait another week to depatron again... is a 2 week cycle. Thats alot of time for active peoples. I think it would be alot harder to coordinate abuse... especially is someone wants to turn in a heritege quest in that "depatroned week".</P> <P>So lots of inconvenince for the potential abusers... not too much inconvenience for people who either know they aren't going to play for 1 week (vacation), are totally inactive, or have alts they just don't want to patron anymore until some further time.</P>

[lensp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oshy wrote:<BR> <P>Maybe I'm looking at this too simple... but I thought a 1 week lockout timer for any change of status would stop 90% of the abuse.</P> <P>If the legitemate point of depatroning someone is because they are inactive (patron wise or game time) and no longer contributing then more than likely they won't "be back on active status" right after you depatron, so a 1 week lockout really won't effect these people. Once they are back, no biggie in repatroning them. and 1 week really isn't that long.</P> <P>However to depatron (wait 1 week), repatron, turn in heritege quest, wait another week to depatron again... is a 2 week cycle. Thats alot of time for active peoples. I think it would be alot harder to coordinate abuse... especially is someone wants to turn in a heritege quest in that "depatroned week".</P> <P>So lots of inconvenince for the potential abusers... not too much inconvenience for people who either know they aren't going to play for 1 week (vacation), are totally inactive, or have alts they just don't want to patron anymore until some further time.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1 week is not nearly long enough.  In the week your not a patron you would just work towards the end of a few HQ then you have 1 week after re-patronage to finish them up.  If your not ready after a week wait to re-patronize until you are.</P> <P>It has to be a VERY long time if not a 1 shot deal (de-patronize and your gone for good as a patron).  If I had to wait 3 months to finish up my HQ's it may discourage me from working on them.</P> <P> </P>