Sugested solution for fighters who wont currently have a "role" in raids

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<DIV> <P>They need to make x4 raids almsot require 6 tanks anf 6 healers and 12 mage/scout... maby not every raid but the truely challengin ones need this setup. 12 of the classes in this game are defense and 12 are offense. They should all have a role in a raid, mobs should hit hard enough that without 6 tanks dividing the damage amoungst themselves and without 6 healers healing them the raid should wipe. How would the dev's manage such a balanced feat?? Like this:</P> <P>Allow fighters to divide the damage of a single blow amongs themselves. I call it a Batalion. 2-6 fighters can join up and as long as they stay withina  certain radius as eachother, any direct hit that one recieves is divided amongst them so it can be healed easier than healing one persion taking amazingly high spike damage. Lets say a mob deals a deadly attack that does 10000 damage. One fighter might be serverly hurt or killing by this mightly blow, but insted, this is divided between the 6 fighters, each taking 1667 damage each, which would then be mitigated or avoided. This is how brawlers can effectively tank. If they dont dodge it, they wont get one hit killed, but if they do dodge it, it lowers the overall damage from that blow by 1667. Makes it less of a chance to block or die, but rather a "if you dodge it you save healers even more power", if they dodnt dodge it they will mitigate about 30% so thats around 1000, a ward + regeneration could easily cover this. A Heavy armor tank might mitigate this down 70% and recieve only 500 damage almost every time, making reactive heals cover this damage. </P> <P>I have ALLWAYS thought it sooooooo odd that you have the GINORMUSLY UBER DRAGON OF IMPENDING DOOM!.............. and only one persion bold enough <or stupid/recklace enough> to think that they and only they should be taking the hits. (Rambo anyone lol) But a batalion of fighters all shareing the damage and being healing by a squad of healers, eachwitha  tank to protect, has allways sounded better and imo adds much more balanced/reasionable idea for massive raiding. </P> <P>Currently you only need 1 fighter on a raid and this needs to change!! Dont give them dps that takes away the mage/scout roles, but insted </P> <P> <FONT size=5>let them ALL tank</FONT> <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P>... and im not saying ALL raids MUST require 6 fighters and 6 priests.... but for balance sake, the truely end game hard core masterfull raids now and in future</P> <P> </P> <P>Also, it would be nice to make, like say on difficult x3 raids, make it where one class of fighter tanks it better than other, but the other 2 can tank it just not nearly as effective (aka will have to compensate by having more healers then that reduces overal dps ect... but not FORCING a specific tank)</P> <P>Another interesting thing for a x4 raid is 3 mobs that are ^^^ and each can only be tanked easily by a certain class of fighter :</P> <P>A magic wielding mob that uses heavy spell damage that requires a crusader's magical expertise to servive- lowest defense vs phys, best defense vs spell</P> <P>A deadly blade master mob that has 100% accuracy and deadly single attacks that requires a warriors mitiagion-medium def vs phys, medium def vs spell</P> <P>A enraged savage mob that has lower accuracy and deals flurry attack that cant be mitigated, but if avoided, the successive string of 10 blows stops, best def vs phys, worst def vs spell</P> <P>This makes all 3 types of tanking a nessessity, as with all 3 type of healing to counter each type of damage. Also, a good blend of casting and physical damage form scouts and mages will be needed, as well as classes that can open up spell and mitigation for the 12 dps classes to effecively attack the foes (Summoners and Rouges i would imagine getting this benefit of greatly owering defense) Enchanters and bards would greatly increase damage done by other while keeping a good constant personal dps just under that of the rouges and summoners, and sorcerors and predators would hammer it down hard with their best damage abilties (that are being enhanced) on the now weakened mobs (thanks to rouges and summoners). </P> <P>That is how I wana raid....with varriety bing a key. I want a raid of all of the 24 classes to be the most effective raid force in the game. Not saysing that doubleing or quientuppling up on the same class shouldnt work as the "perfect" raid set up is very rare, but i think that the 24 of all subclass varriety should be the most efficant, with varriables like palyer skill and gear aside.</P> <P>If anyone ahs some interesting ideas for Fighters in raids i would love to hear some, and not to toot my own horn, but i have yet to see an idea as effective as mine for what to do with all these wittle tanks scampering around asking "well..just [Removed for Content] am i supposed to do  Mr Raid leader??"</P> <P>Raid leader responds "Suck it up, soldier!! Now get in formation and go fight Random_epic_boss_01!!! Get in their and lookout for eachother."</P></DIV>

[Effulgen]

Why would you have 6 healers healing 6 tanks concentrating their buffs on each tank seperately instead of just healing 1 tank who can increase the mitigation beyond what the rest can with all  or some of their buffs combined? <div></div>

[L1m]

<div></div>Precisely. Also if you look at our buffs, youll see that if we support another charecter its generally in sacrifice of something that we have ie in a crusaders spell of "Offering of armament" he sacrfices his AC to bolster that of an ally. "how i wana  raid" isnt how everyone else would want to raid,  variety can also mean different classes playing the role of dps or utility such as the stifles and stuns coming from some area of the fighter class. Side point: Not every fighter wants to tank 24/7. <div></div><p>Message Edited by L1m3y on <span class=date_text>07-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:54 AM</span>

[K'aldar]

i understand both sides of this.. but my real question is. what other role will there be for non guardian/zerker tanks after the revamp? with the dps nerf of tanks in general ppl will be taking real dps over tanks now.  my pally can rez sure, and he has armament type spells, but they're very very minimal. and as it is his dps isn't very much at 50 compared to the nuking warlocks and wizards.  so if 2 guardians (MA and MT), 8 healers, and 14 warlocks/wizards/assassins/rangers (insert any dps class here) show up for a raid, what're the paladin, SK, bruiser, monk players supposed to do then? <div></div>

[ReturnOfMadness]

oddly enough i like this id <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and every1 who is onlysuggesting the bunch of dd/2tanks/couple of healers and no real buffer classes, should try to raid whitout an illusionist/coercer/few reserve tanks/ trouba/dirge type classes.....gl lol, u will suffer from the lack of buffs they can give that increase ur dps signifcantly <div></div>

[Dorma]

So instead of 1 guardian tanking we get 6 ? 

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>wow.... thats some cinicle replies by some lol. But as to the persion wondering why they wouldnt buff one person to insainly high defense, why not buff them all? But how you ask? Raid wide buff option. Allow anyone with a group spell to be enhanced across the raid at the cost of making it cost 5 concentration. This would allow classes to buff the entire raid with one spell they this wouldbe the most beneficial. Only spells with concentration can have this option as a right-click on the maintained window</P> <P>Or if you dont like this idea, how bout allowing any fighter in any group to perform this battalion tanking as long as they stay near eachother, that way they could still get all the buffs from their group members.</P> <P>The point some of you pesemists (but hey, dont get me wrong, thats a good thing to have, means your never let down and allways plesantly surprized <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) think is that guardians will be the tank 24/7 every raid. This is just not the case. The one and only reasion that brawlers arnt tanking is beacuse while they would avoid most blows, the rare one that would land would mean instant death or near to it. With thedamage being spred out amongst the up to 6 fighters, the brawler might only recive 1000 damage rather than say 8000, which a ward + regen would fix that up before the next blow. </P> <P>So why not just buff someone up to insainly high stats and let them go Rambo? well, no reasion not to if your an extreemly well geared epic raiding guild, and has the ability to amke a one-man-wonder that can tank most of the raid mob in the game solo, but i think there should be some that hit just so dang hard that you would have to have this tactic. Honestly, why would only one solotary fighteer tank for the entrire raid force when 6 could muster together and link their taunting abilties and damage divided amongst them.... it just sounds more logical to me.</P> <DIV>And to the guy who qutoed my "this is how i wana raid!"..... dont nit-pic peoples post like that man it's not my posts main purpose in thoughs 6 words yet you seem to just pick them out and go to town on me lol... i have asked plenty of tanks in my guild and others in a high raiding guild  <clan lynx on steamfont> and there top tank said he would gladly suport this idea and wonders why they didnt have this in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, the main point is that al dps have a place in raid and all priests have a place in raid and now it's time for all fighters to havea  defensive palce ina  raid where prieviously there was none. If anyone has so more les critisisng and more PRODUCTIVE posts im glad to hear em (and the last ones we're a little helpfull even if a little negative <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>There are multipul ways of doing it,  as long as we get rid of the shoe size IQ, short bus riding, lets milk the bull idea of single Tank only constant concept.</P> <P>Tanks need a role cause DPS was the only thing that really stacked in what we have now and DPS is going by by very soon for the tanks.  And tanks are probably the most common archtype in the game.</P> <P>So one idea or another, somthing is going to need to happen in a role and/or stacking way.</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

I agree and you said the words i was trying to think of (major headace right now :smileysad: ) Fighters need a primary role that stacks, so my group-tanking idea or any other solution simply is gona have to happen.

[Suraklin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> K'aldar wrote:<BR>i understand both sides of this.. but my real question is. what other role will there be for non guardian/zerker tanks after the revamp? with the dps nerf of tanks in general ppl will be taking real dps over tanks now.  my pally can rez sure, and he has armament type spells, but they're very very minimal. and as it is his dps isn't very much at 50 compared to the nuking warlocks and wizards.  so if 2 guardians (MA and MT), 8 healers, and 14 warlocks/wizards/assassins/rangers (insert any dps class here) show up for a raid, what're the paladin, SK, <FONT color=#cc0000>bruiser, monk</FONT> players supposed to do then? <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>In my opinion monks and bruisers should be made melee and taken completely out of the fighter/tank archetype anyway. Change the taunts to more DPS skills.<BR>

[K'aldar]

lol no arguements here on that, i made my bruiser for the damage he did, not his tanking ability.  i just kinda wanted a melee damage class that didn't rely on positional attacks, poisons, sneak, or anything but brute force, all out melee dmg. anyway i'm not here to complain, just my 2cp <div></div>

[Moski]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Suraklin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>In my opinion monks and bruisers should be made melee and taken completely out of the fighter/tank archetype anyway. Change the taunts to more DPS skills.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank God that your opinion isnt SOEs.</P> <P>If you have chosen a Brawler as a dps class you picked the wrong Archtype. </P> <P>We are, were and will be fighters. So we are, were and will be a tank class. our definded role is to tank and not to do damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>No offense, but SOE stated a couple of times that we are tanks. they will not change our archtype. </P> <P>If you still want to be dps - reroll. you will not like the combat changes.<BR></P>

[Suraklin]

<DIV>Same here I play a Monk but he's only low 20's.  I love the DPS they can do now(which is going way down after combat revamp.) I hate being the meat shield and having to taunt to keep others alive though lol. That's why I mostly solo with him when I need a change of class to play. I played EQOA where Monks were melee. Never played EQ1 but I've heard they could tank but were normally pullers back to the group and mainly DPS in EQ1 also. I hate Scout classes cause most of their attacks are positional. Even what you'd call Scout classes in EQOA (Rogue=Assassin,Ranger, and Bard) only had a handful of backstab attacks. Most other attacks could be done from any position. Don't know if EQ1 Scouts had so many positional attacks as EQ2 does.</DIV>

[Suraklin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moskito wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Suraklin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>In my opinion monks and bruisers should be made melee and taken completely out of the fighter/tank archetype anyway. Change the taunts to more DPS skills.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank God that your opinion isnt SOEs.</P> <P>If you have chosen a Brawler as a dps class you picked the wrong Archtype. </P> <P>We are, were and will be fighters. So we are, were and will be a tank class. our definded role is to tank and not to do damage.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>No offense, but SOE stated a couple of times that we are tanks. they will not change our archtype.</FONT> </P> <P>If you still want to be dps - reroll. you will not like the combat changes.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Do you believe everything SOE tells you? If you do you haven't played SOE games very long. SOE said this game was ready for the market. However, 7+ months later we're waiting for a combat revamp of what they now think it should've been at release. 7 months from combat revamp it'll probably be changed again at the rate these Devs mess things up. I just pray to God the Dev team that did the combat revamp for SWG didn't get their hands on this game cause they caused a mass Exodus from that game with their [Removed for Content] combat changes.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Suraklin on <SPAN class=date_text>07-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:01 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Suraklin on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:04 AM</span>

[Vampy]

<P>I hate not knowing exactly what they are doing to my toons. I hate that the original concepts of the game are not implemented fully. I hate that a major change in what I do is incoming and that realistically will not likely make me competative for a role as a tank and will make me less likely to fill a dps role. I hate having people tell me to reroll and spout off Sony-isms. I hate that with the revamp it is difficult to get a head start on rerolling even if I wanted to since these changes are going to be so dramatic and far reaching. I LOVE that there are alternative games to play should the worst happen.</P> <P> </P> <P>What I would like to see with this revamp: A class reset. Plain and simple. No idea what I would choose until the changes reveal their depth but it would make me more comfortable. Dramatic changes to what I do at the 7 month mark are uncool. Very uncool.</P> <P> </P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>If you dont want tot ank dont go fighter. You whent fighter. You dont have the option to sacrifice your taunts to go the DPS rout. Sorry to say, but Fighters are needed for defense in this game. Up untill my idea they had no way of combining and stacking that effort. Now i give you an option to do this and brawlers and berserkers tell me they would get the sharft when this would help them tremendously. </P> <P>I have a monk. IMO the devs are trying to make them too damaging and lowering their ability to tank. Thats not what i signed up for as a FIGHTER first and fore most, then became brawler fighter, then finaly a monk brawler fighter. Point is at level 50, guaridan berserker SK pally bruiser and monk are still fighters who's core role is tanking regarlace of what player's concepts are. </P> <P>You can never give up your archetype. If you wanted damage, you should have chose that in the first palce.</P> <P>as a brawler-fighter i choose to avoidance tank. I want to beable to deftly dodge most of the blows and get hit hard by a few. I want to be effective fighting a fighter mob, and less effective fighting a scout(hard to avoid their accurate strikes), and terrible vs mage nukes (cant avoid magical damage), i chose this over becoming a mitigation tank, warrior, who choose to be good vs scouts and mediocre vs fighters and terible vs caster's nukes. Nor did i choose to beable to tank like a crusader, which are medium vs scouts, great vs casting damage, and (in theroy ) should be weaker or medium vs fighters.</P> <P>I didnt choose a monk-brawler-fighter for damage. I chose them to beable to help my friends out more (and ....the vanity aspect of getting nice looking attacks, that dont have to be devistating like scout/mage attacks...but they can still LOOK cool :smileywink: )</P> <P>Long post made short: Your archetype defines your role NOT your sub-class. It's a pyramid, with Archetype at the base, followed by a middle made from the class, and the sub-class sits at the peek, it looks and sounds the prittiest, but it has no dynamicaly changing aspect from it's sister sub-class. It is the way this game is designed, and it's the only game i have personaly herd or played that does the ingenous set up. This makes all Classes and Sub-classes unique while still keeping there core role inplace and balanced.</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Vampy]

<P>If you believe that a combat revamp can not alter a class beyond their archtype roles you are not too familiar with Sony, revamps or perhaps even online gaming. They can and have made changes to the very core of classes that alter them to another role entirely within an online community. We all will have to wait and see. Some will stand by Sony, some will stand by their classes but I choose to stand by my time invested in a high damage / low mitigation / high avoidance / low utility melee class. It is what I was in November of 2004, it is what I am now, and it is what I choose to be in this particular online game and if it is altered as proposed then I will reroll or rechoose games. I do not wish to be expected to tank heavy mobs as a medium damage, low mitigation, high avoidance, low utility class. </P> <P>I would compare it to being a plumber for 7 months then one day your boss saying "Hey Bob, gonna make you a carpenter from now on" Like it or lump it.</P> <P>Personally I wish some online game would have the guts to just come out and say WE ARE NOT BALANCING CLASSSES.</P> <P>Wanna do this then do this but only because you love it cause we ain't changing it so you feel better standing next to another class. I could seriously live with and respect that position. People may even have a tendency to fall in to classes that they like rather than ones that are min/maxxed if they knew it was a solid choice that was not gonna be dorked with continually patch after freaking patch. THEN I might actually buy the arguement that "this is what you signed up for, live with it and shaddup".</P> <P>Just my humble opinion, I respect and welcome yours.</P> <p>Message Edited by Vampyyr on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:10 AM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>:smileyvery-happy:But what of the Monk who wishes to beable to tank raid encounters, and wants some of this games raid content to be varried so that the other 2 fighter classes besides warriors are needed or valued as the "better" tank for a certain encounter or atleast a viable tank for it insted of just a funny joke? </P> <P>You chose fighter. Fighter = Defender of weak (dubed TANK by majority of players)</P> <P>You chose to protect and defend you group and allow them to do what needs getting done, be it healing damage or any other role. I want to be a fighter. I didnt sign up for high damage. Scouts are deadly, im a dodgey brawler. I can handle that.</P> <P>I chose my life as a fighter to defense my allies so THEY can do that high damage, that IS their discription on the isle that lasts for the rest of the game. </P> <P>As a brawler, i did not choose the weak tank that has high attack potiential. I chose the agile tank that avoids hits. </P> <P>Why cant i effectivly function as my core role in raids? Because mobs have heavy spike damage. I cant survive a massive hit. Thus im a worthless tank in raids, when im ALONE. </P> <P>But put me in the 6 man tanking squad and BAM the worst ill get snaged for from a 10k attack is 1667 damage- the small 30% or so mitigation i have will make it about 1200 damage if i dont dodge, and ill have 75% chance to dodge it. HEY now would you look at that! Now i AM an effective tankfor raids, ill save healers power by dodging, a ward and regeneration is about all ill need. </P> <P>Me, with my band of 6 fighters, will all be effective in this senerio, not just the warriors who can mitigate down the single hit. By spreding the damage thiner, it makes priests' job a lot easier, as they can use their most efeciant heals (wards/reactives/regenerations) rather then waiste power spaming direct heals to keep one solotairy mitigation tank alive.</P> <P>I want raid taning to be a group effort, non of this supper hero uber guaridan/paladin that single handedly holds off Voxes assult. I hated deathtouch in EQLive, be the way Guardians are now and how you only need one tank to hold of this giant dragon while everyone else blasts and whacks at it's [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is sooooo wierd and twisted.</P> <P>Fighters need to be able to stack their tanking ability, and no one fighter needs to be the master of tanking in ALL SENERIOS.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>I DONT GIVE A RATS [Removed for Content] IF I AM BETTER THAN ANOTHER PLAYER, BUT BY MARR I BETTER BE ABLE TO DO THE DANG JOB I SIGNED UP FOR!!! WHICH FOR A FIGHTER IS TO TANK (WHICH MEANS TO DEFEND IN ANY WAY POSSIBLE) AND IF IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ANY CLASS BESIDES GUARDIAN AND PALADIN TO TANK IN RAIDS, THEN THAT IS BROKEN. I WANT TO TANK ALONG SIDE MY FIGHTING BROTHERS AND SISTERS, NOT PUMMEL A MOBS BUTTOCKS!:smileyvery-happy:</FONT></P> <P>/rage off</P> <DIV>Anyway, as a closing point, with our main role of fighter clearly being defined as taking(avoiding) damage and aggro control for the group, we are the only archetype in the game currently that doesn't allways have the choice of doing are core role. If a guaridan is in the group and my monk joins, everyone turns to the guaridan to tank, even if he is a level or 2 below me. There is no way that i can tank when he is tnkaing, so im left witha  few buffs, FD, mend, and damage. I HATE THAT POSITION.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If me an guaridan could team up and both divide the incmoing damage, then everything is great! he's geting 1/2 the damage and im geting 1/2 the damage, and who ever the healer is can just use special heals on both of us to keep us going. Everyone wins, there are no loosers. Nothing but the most challenging high end raid encounters should require the 6 man tanking system to divide up severly heavy blows, or else the single tank raiding people would be flaming that</DIV> <DIV> "we put al this effort into amkeing so and so so awsome, that he can tank these beasts, and how your forcing our raid to change our tactics to incorporate 5 more tanks??" Well... the only advice iwould have here is to A) adapt, and B) you dont HAVE to ahve 6 tanks, but it makes everyhting more survivable, your choise if you dont want to use 6 tank raiding style.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im sure there are many pros and cons to the batalion of fighters raiding style, but imo it is something that has to be done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With fighters DPS nolonger as unbalanced as it currently is, they will not be in a  raid for their DPS, so what will they be there for?? Defense, just like they have the entirety of this game, defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also as a closing point to any DPS-minded fighters, sorry. There is no strictly damage based fighter class nore was this game's mechanics desinged for it. I have no control in this issue, so please dont bash me. I'm mearly saying, Fighters arent meant to be deadly attackers with this archetype system. Maby in othergames (and usualy so) Berserkers or monks are ammong the best in damage, but not in this game. Im sorry it cant be as you invisoned it, a martial artist Brawler that deals amazing damage at the loss of tanking ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i know most of my ideas will probly never matierialize, but i can hope, and post. Thats about all any of us can do. </DIV> <DIV>(please no one liner remarks...if your gona insult me or my idea, or make a revison or helpfull sugestion, please take the time to do it right.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:06 AM</span>

[Daran]

After reading nearly every bit of EQ2 hype and prerelease info, then picking up the game and playing since release, I've come to one conclusion I really dont think they originally intended alot of the similarities between EQ2 and the rest of the fantasy based MMOs, but when push came to shove they fell back into old habits. For instance, I dont think that DPS was really ever meant to be a main role. instead it was a secondary thing some classes do while doing their main role. But like I said, old habits. Honestly I would love to talk to the original designers and find out what they intended when they designed the classes and archetypes, not that I think the original design would be neccessarily the bible of eq2 but I think it would be absolutly fascinating. <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>I agree, i truely hoped eq2 would be somting completly unique and achieve someting no other mmo had, a balanced archetype system that actually worked... and in the devolpment stages it did... but somewhere people got off the archetypal role focus and thats when things when awry imo.</P> <P>I realy would to like to talk to the origional desierners.</P>

[Vampy]

<P>Here is my problem with the revamp. I have been a bruiser now since November 2004 and we all know that that means good dps. They are gonna change that. I don't like the switcheroo BS. 7 months later I have to accept a change to my functioning. I understand completely what it means to tank. I realize the need for more effective tanking in our class because I play it every day. I just think the fix should be a move to medium armor because I do not believe Sony can balance heavy armor tanks with light armor tanks using avoidance. I also do not believe that my acceptence of the fact that I tank to a lesser degree but am compensated by good dps should be nerfed to holy hades to make everyone else feel better or fit into a formula that player are chanting these days like a [Removed for Content] mantra.</P> <P>Again for the cheap seats here is a fix that will work.</P> <P>Slow down combat a tad, change monk/bruiser to medium armor, change scouts to light armor, slightly nerf our dps, make the conjurers happier, balance warlock/wizard dps some, fix the priest so they can all heal decently, stop buffing the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] out of uber mobs to make uber guilds have a challenge then nerfing what made them able to kill said mob thus taking all non-ubers out of the realm of possibility to kill said mob, actually do a live test on patched stuff before you take it live.</P> <P>Anyway.....none of the above will prol happen so......we wait and see. I am cautiously pessimistic with optimistic undertones.</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>You want....a monk...to wear chain? Enouff said lol.</P> <P>Way to radical man!</P> <P>Brawler avoidance tanking would work and work well.... IF every single mob in this game wasnt desined as having high spike damage. If they add mobs  that hit in combination attacks that stop if one is avoided, bam then brawler is the appropreate tank for said mob. Other fighter might recive 7 out of the 10 hits, brawler might recive 2 or none.</P> <P>Or if they wanted to take the randomness out of it, make sure any brawler will auto dodge the 4th out of the 10, and mitigation tanks would be completely random. If you realy wanted to make a brawler the optimum tank for said mob, have it negate mitigation while using the 10 string combo. That way if you avoid YAY you dont get hurt much (and can only recive a max of 5 hits) but poor slow Warror/Crusaders are gona get PUMMELED :smileyvery-happy: fun being on the other end of the pumleing eh :smileywink:</P> <P>Having played each of the 3 tank classes, i think each should excell at tanking their "best" mob, Warriors with highest mitigation tanking scou tmobs with highest peek physical attacks, Crusaders tanking casters with high peek magical daamge, and Brawlers tanking fighter mobs that use stings of combos that null mitigation.</P> <P>And I still think allowing tanks to combine their tanking is best way to go. No matter what you are, your a fighter, and you protect. You will never not be a fighter, even if your a fist pummleing brawler, your still a fighter at your core and you cant change that role. If you choose to follow your secondairy daamge as your primary function your setting yourself up for some disipointment.</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Vampy]

<DIV>Yup, if we gonna tank with their current systems we need medium armor or it won't work. Your system sounds good but just won't happen, neither will medium armor and the end result.....monkish folks are screwed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Problem is in the eq we all grew up on monk were pullers and CR specialist, here they threw us in tank territiroy without the tools we need to be "balanced" to other tanks. NOW they are also gonna reduce our dps so we effectively have no role. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said though, gotta wait and see but I very much doubt that monkish folks are gonna like the results. Neither will Zerkers I am betting, makes me sad I deleted my guardian and zerker however. Effects my wife and her fury (my partner) also cause that combo may blow chunks when they all done muckin about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>D&D and Conan are around the bend though so, no worries mate.</DIV>

[Se]

<P>Some good points and some completely idiotic crap in this thread. I like the idea of a batalin type thing. Would be interesting to see. Monk/Bruiser as is are perfectly fine in both DPS and tanking. Just cause 90% of you cant or dnt have the balls to tank a raid mob doesnt mean there arent those of us that can. But regardless the complainers screwed us all over. As for this revamp its needed but if my DPS is dropped too far I'll reroll. My main thing is taunts. The REASON Monk/Bruiser has the high DPS is?? Hmm tough one there. WE have a whopping 2 taunts. we dont get all kinds of hate producing attacks or any of that happy plate tank crap. Leave us the way we are and fix avoidance. But I wont keep preaching that. Currently our dps shoudl be adjusted down a little bit cause there is not a single class in this game that can outdps my monk and live through the fight. All you whining punks are gonna realize sooner or later that YOU are the reason that monk/bruiser is a crap class after this revamp. Currently there is a not a single mob in the game that a monk would tank better than a guardian. So all this garbage you people state about whahhh my monk cant tank a lvl 58 3up dragon. Guess what after the revamp you still wont. I have been pretty reserved on this topic up to now. I have watched the treads role by about how a monk is atank and crap like that. Number 1 a monk is not a TANK. A monk is a fighter yes but not a tank the way you are thinking of the word. Tanks were defined for MMO's in EQ1. Basically meaning a heavy armor clad warrior that can take a beating with ease. Guess what we are monks. Read the book that came with your game read every class descriptions of a monk and what do they all say. Monk the most offensive of the fighter archetype. A monk avoids attacks rather than taking them. a monk provides defense to his group by assaulting his opponent with massive offense rather than yelling profanity at it and taunting. Thats a monk. Not this i wanna be a light armor plate tank crap that you morons are spewing. DO some homework next time before you nerf a subclass into a pointless existence. </P> <P> </P> <P>And in a pre-emptivce strike to any of you who might doubt any of what I have said. Educate yourself read through your book and every items on it you can find. You will firmyl see that this is what monk/bruiser is supposed to be. And for all you dps classes out their yay good for you. You all whined enough to get good dps and get killed 3 secs into every raid. Wait and see you take the dps away fromt eh fighters gues what the taunts aint gonna be keeping that agro. and if a monk or bruiser is tanking for you you are screwed unless we get 3 more taunts you'll be dead before our first one refreshes.</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>i give you 4 *'s.....here you go ****.....</P> <P>For the most part you have a good post. BUT, damage does not equill aggro managment, taunts do. And brawlers should gain aggro just like every fighter, by using taunts. Evey fighter's tuant needs to be beefed up to higher than what they currently are if more people are going to be pushing out descient damage finaly. You shouldnt thing aggro control by damage is reasion for a monk to be in tier 1 in dps ranking compaison. </P> <P>Taunts need a MAJOR increase, you are extreemly right on that point, but giving a fighter higher DPS to compensate for aggro control is frankly twisted. You taunt so other more frial classes can deal massive damage or heal you. You trust the DPS people to do their job while your focusing on allowing them to do their job, same with your healer. </P> <P>By your example, a paladin should have to heal constantly to keep aggro of a healer who is healing him. And as to your coment of :</P> <P>" The REASON Monk/Bruiser has the high DPS is?? Hmm tough one there. WE have a whopping 2 taunts. we dont get all kinds of hate producing attacks or any of that happy plate tank crap"</P> <P>Well then, would you also like some +hate added to some or your attacks? would be easy to do. gimi a second im gona look at the other attack skills that give other classes aggro besides their normal taunt. 10-19 brawler only has 1 taunt confirmed. 10-19 Warrior has 1 taunt 1 skill with aggro+ and one skill that gives aggro to encounter when warrior is hit. Crusader gets 1 taunt and 1 shield attack with + hate.</P> <P>Im hoping when the reevaluate this they will notice that error. They each need 3 aggro skills, 1 a standered issue taunt (with a different side effect for each class) that is same +hate gain, they each need their level 10 attack to have a +hate on it like warriors do (powerstrike for brawler, right now kinda worthless unless you want a interupt, maby good for raiding...maby) and they each need a + hate reactive attatched to their tanking buff.</P> <P>That would even out the aggro issue and not force you to deal damage to try to keep aggro, which btw is one of the most backwards ideas ever hehe:</P> <P><i fixed a few gramer errors for clerity></P> <P>"You all whined enough to get good dps and get killed 3 secs into every raid. Wait and see you take the dps away fromt the fighters guess what? the taunts arnt gonna be keeping that agro, and if a monk or bruiser is tanking for you, you are screwed unless we get 3 more taunts you'll be dead before our first one refreshes."</P> <P>So beacuse now that scouts and mages are the top tier dps like it should have been origonaly, you wont beable to use your damage to hold aggro. If you hadnt added that last "unless we get 3 more taunts" bit, i would have 1 star'ed you. Your completely right, you need more and better taunts to equil that of a warrior.</P> <P>One thing that must become and remain universal about fighters is they all must have the same ammount and qaulity of aggro garnering skills (with class based definitions added onto the taunt, like a minor intuerupt for brawler, a minor self heal for crusader, and a minor slow for warrior)</P> <P>Damage shouldn't be a noticable or functional way of aggro control. </P> <P>What brawler's damage <STRONG>should</STRONG> be for is a secondairy thing they bring to the mix besides their role as a <STRIKE>tank</STRIKE> (i dont see the definition of "tank" as you do, because i have just allways herd anyone who takes damage is a tank, but yes, your definition is the proper one with the heavy armor, so let me rephrase) roll as <STRONG>defender</STRONG>.</P> <P>Paladin's bring a little extra healing, and SK can bring a littke extra damage + stat theft debuffs and small self healing (wish lifetaps were made stronger) and a Guardian provides group protection (best intervine-type skill because hey, they GUARD:smileywink: ) for any time that aggro is lost, and berserker provides damage-by-tanking with some skills that attack back at attacking foes or make berserker's damage increase only when getting hit. </P> <P>Each can add something extra to a group so long as their secondary doesnt replace their primary role, and so long as their secondairy role isnt better than anyone elses Primary role (healing of a paladin should not excced a priest, damage of a shadowknight or berserker or brawler should not exceed that of a mage/scout class)</P> <P>Hope this helps any, all in all i rather liked your post. Any sugestions to add about how to amke the batalin type tnaking better?</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[L1m]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote: <p><font color="#ff0000" size="4">I DONT GIVE A RATS [Removed for Content] IF I AM BETTER THAN ANOTHER PLAYER, BUT BY MARR I BETTER BE ABLE TO DO THE DANG JOB I SIGNED UP FOR!!!</font></p> <hr></blockquote>I signed up for monk, not tank. Tanking will be so fun when one of my two taunts has a 30 second recast timer. The day you avoid a 10 k AOE dot is the day that monks avoidance would work vs epic mobs.</span><span> The monk who wishes to tank raid encounters is stupid imho. Our main job in raids is to keep the mob stifled along with dps.</span> <span> All fighters do not have the same health, and fyi guardians along with health buffs have mad mitigation buffs (self buffs) If you dont think dps holds agro your a [Removed for Content], ever heard of zerkers? Heres what the combat revamp might make things look like 6 slots in a group Guard/Pally/Zerker/Sk Healer Warlock Ranger Coercer group shouts "we need 1 more dps" brawler shouts "level of group?" group " lvl 47, your class?" brawler "monk/bruiser" group " we want dps..........." warlock/ranger/wizard/assasain/brigand/swashbuckler/conjurer/necromancer takes role other situation being no tank group "need tank" brawler " bla bla bla hello" group " class?" brawler " monk/bruiser" group " we need a real tank" nuff said?</span><div></div><p><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by L1m3y on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:48 AM</span>

[Kirotaan]

This forum is for testing feedback.  Combat feedback in general and on live servers should be directed to the <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board?board.id=combat" target=_blank>Combat forum</a>.  Just cause you post it here doesn't mean a dev is going to look at it. <div></div>

[Smeegill]

<DIV>The OP has serious flaws in his or her argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Qoute: "<EM>Currently you only need 1 fighter on a raid</EM> <EM>and this needs to change</EM>!! "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a memeber of a prismatic geared raid guild we already use a split similiar to his or her 6 tank proposal.  "Tank" including fighter classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the statement "You only need one tank" is a sign the OP has no clue what the hell is going on.  That is absolute BS.  Sorry, maybe in fantasyland somewere.  Or maybe OP has the best geared people in the EQ universe in his guild.  Not sure but you already need a fair representation of tanks for assisting, dps and HO's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But every creature is different.  Some take more casters to down fast, or maybe more melee dps , or maybe a crapload of healers to keep everyone up. My point is  all the Raid mobs are pretty unique now and require different types of strategies and group make ups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OP, your a person who knows little if anything about this game.  Your idea is drivel.  Try playing the game and you might start to understand what the hell is really going on at the raid level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fizbiz </DIV> <DIV>50 Conjuror Everfrost</DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Good to know that some raiding guilds do infact you multiple tank set up.</P> <P>And to Limey, im just gona do a small tidbit for you.</P> <P>You chose to defend people when you became a fighter, not to stifle epic mobs. that never changes.</P> <P>Do you remeber WAY back on the isle?</P> <P>After the guard that mafe youa  fighter said some stuff about being in the fray, PROTECTING your weaker allies, and such?</P> <P>"Are you prepaired to handle that?" i believe was the deal signing click for "yes, im a fighter and forever i shall protect. You can argue with me all you want, but MG in a seprit post, oh which i have no whim to look up to quote directly. In a nutshell he said "all fighters are able to keep a mobs aggro, beable to hold a mob with enough defense to be compairible, and that some tanks will have better defense vs some mob's attacks, and that no matter how many people like to make-bielive they are not tanks (and by that definition i mean defensive players primarily, if they do damage or not is irrelevant) they are all ment to beable to defend.</P> <P>He also listed some specifics like Monks will beable to purge their bodies of ailements, paladins healing, SK having higher damage then pally (he mentioned lifetaps so they probly getting beefed up) bruisers having a little more mitigation or something like that, and...think guardian got more taunts witch disturbs me...oh and berserkers have good damage mainly when tanking (hints that they will only beable to go berserk when being hit or have some atacks that will damage foe when berserker is hit like riposte) to keep aggro for them.</P> <P>Gage posted it on monk forms titled Read this: ot check thisout, something like that.</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Na]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<p></p><p>For the most part you have a good post. BUT, damage does not equill aggro managment, taunts do. And brawlers should gain aggro just like every fighter, by using taunts. Evey fighter's tuant needs to be beefed up to higher than what they currently are if more people are going to be pushing out descient damage finaly. You shouldnt thing aggro control by damage is reasion for a monk to be in tier 1 in dps ranking compaison.</p><p>Taunts need a MAJOR increase, you are extreemly right on that point, but giving a fighter higher DPS to compensate for aggro control is frankly twisted. You taunt so other more frial classes can deal massive damage or heal you. You trust the DPS people to do their job while your focusing on allowing them to do their job, same with your healer.</p><i></i><hr></blockquote>So E.o.T. we meet again...heheThe only problem with what's quoted above is that it doesn't fit all fighter types. While damage may not be part of the aggro control for Guardians, Paladins, Shadow Knights, and Monks it IS part of aggro management for Bruisers and Bezerkers.Here's a quote by MG on Zerker and Bruiserts "</span><i>Berserkers will do more damage than guardians, especially when tanking. While they also have taunts, part of their taunting comes from the damage they do.  Bruisers mitigate a bit better and do more damage than monks, which again is the basis for part of their taunting ability."  </i>This quote was taken from this thread http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=29576#M29576Zerkers and Bruisers need to have higher DPS than the other fighter types in order to balance out the lack of taunt. They get fewer direct taunts and fewer combat arts that increase mob hate than the other fighter types. Without an increased DPS, these two sub-classes will have a much harder time gaining, maintaining and re-gaining aggro from other party members.I don't think people want Zerkers and Bruisers to out DPS the pure DPS classes, but with this rebalancing SOE needs to make sure that they don't lower the Zerker and Bruiser DPS to the point where it no longer contributes to aggro management, otherwise we're back to being a 2nd rate tank instead of being on an even level. Sure, they could add hate to existing combat arts but that still wouldn't necessarily help things.  By adding hate to the combat arts, instead of the normal auto-attack damage, you're effectively tying how often a Zerker/Bruiser can taunt a mob to a skill recast timer.   Compare that to Guardian buffs that increase hate with the encounter each time the guardian is hit and you'll see that we're still on the low end of the aggro management pool. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Nazz04355 on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:09 AM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

Sorry, but it still wont work, there will allways be people dealing more damage the fighters and they will pull aggro which is not there fault is a design flaw. Yes i read Mg's post too and that worries me. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>tier 1 dps people wont beable to go full out damage with a brawler tank if brawler's damage is their aggro control. It's so easy to fix their agro isues, just tack on + hate insted of more damage. Powerstrike, low level 10 attack, could easily be made into a brawler version of the warrior's taunting blow, no reasion why they shouldnt both increase hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do understand your argument though, but if damage is how my monk is expected to maintain agro, i dont think it will be effective with people that can out damage me, who rightly should. Just hoping they increase the taunting power of all tanks. If they give brawlers a skill that increases hate with each blow we land, THAT would be nice. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enraged fists could replace the crapy level 15 thundering fists, and have a 25% chance to increase hate with each hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I aggre completely that if their damage is lowered under all amges and scouts where it should be, their "damage aggro control" will not work to well, but if we get skills like Enraged fists, that would be ok.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[Vampy]

<P>I can see it now: Since different tanks will have different resist bonuses and affinity I am almost positive that the mobs that drop monky type gear will for sure require a resist we don't have beefed up. The one and I do mean ONE mob we will have resist to tank will be an epic mob that drop a rare and hardly used tradeskill doodad that makes a thingymabob to create a placard for your house that reads" A tank does not live here".</P> <P>/lol actually MG's post make me more hopeful to be honest. I believe they are really making an effort to sort it all out and in the end that is what makes me loyal, even if they don't always hit the mark......or the barn door the mark is hung on.</P> <P>/peace</P>

[Na]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:Sorry, but it still wont work, there will allways be people dealing more damage the fighters and they will pull aggro which is not there fault is a design flaw. Yes i read Mg's post too and that worries me. <div><font color="#ff0000">Other classes doing more DPS won't be an aggro issue if you allow Zerker/Bruiser to have decent DPS. I'm not saying that Zerker/Bruiser damage should be equal or higher than Scout/Mage DPS. I'm saying that Zerker/Bruiser DPS needs to be higher than all the other fighter types in order to balance aggro management.  Having the highest DPS of the fighter types in conjunction with the few taunts we have should be enough for us to manage aggro properly. That doesn't mean we have to have the same damage output as a Wizard/Warlock, but we should come in a close third behind scouts. Putting us on the end of the Tier 2 damage is exactly where we should be.</font>  </div> <div>tier 1 dps people wont beable to go full out damage with a brawler tank if brawler's damage is their aggro control. <font color="#ff0000">It's not totally their aggro control, but a part of it. We do get effective taunts, just not as many as the other tank classes. We use our damage in conjunction with our taunts, like Guardians use defense buffs in conjunction with theirs. </font> It's so easy to fix their agro isues, just tack on + hate insted of more damage. Powerstrike, low level 10 attack, could easily be made into a brawler version of the warrior's taunting blow, no reasion why they shouldnt both increase hate. </div><div><font color="#ff0000">But then you're changing the idea behind the Zerker and Bruiser. If you lower their DPS and tack on hate, they no longer have a benefit.  Zerkers/Bruiser have a higher DPS than the other tanks to make up for their limitations. If you take away a Bruiser's DPS but leave him with Leather only armor with low mitigation, there really is no incentive to play the class. There has to be bonuses to balance the detriments. Guardians have stackable defensive buffs and hp buffs to balance their lack of damage output. Bruisers have a higher damage output to balance their lower defensive capabilities.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Enraged fists could replace the crapy level 15 thundering fists, and have a 25% chance to increase hate with each hit.</div> <div><font color="#ff0000">Hey, I like that crappy Thundering Fists buff and still use it at 36 when I'm not the main tank in a group. Any  spell that give you a chance to stun a mob, especially if the mob group has casters is a good one.</font> </div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Nazz04355 on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 AM</span>

[L1m]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<div></div> <p> </p> <p>And to Limey, im just gona do a small tidbit for you.</p> <p>You chose to defend people when you became a fighter, not to stifle epic mobs. that never changes.</p><hr></blockquote> Funny, ask any good guild what brawlers do in raids.......... its not tank ......... stifle?</span><div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Oh ok i understand now Nazz. I didnt want them to have terrible dps, just as you said it, top of the fighters but still lower than scouts and mages is a very good balanced position for them, i just hope their damage will infact make up for the loss of extra taunts.</P> <P>Thats for a VERY informative reply:smileywink:</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Currently since avoidance is not functioning as it should be (stated somewhere, but im not about to waste that much time for your sake) and the main problem is no matter what, they eventually wil be one hit killed or close to it. If you have 6 tanks each dividing that single giant hit though, then sundenly 1 hit and they are at 65% insted of 0%, with mitigation tanks taking a constant lower damage, end the end coming out about even.</P> <P>If a brawler can block an average of 4 out of every 5 hits (80% avoidance), and get hit for 1200 on that hit, and a guaridan takes 300 damage 5 times, they are equill. </P> <P>A reactive on a guardian that heals for 300 for 5 times, and a ward that blocks 1500 (damage is mitigated a little by brawler, and wards are suposed to get fixed to accont for mitigation).</P> <P>If brawler gets unlucky, they might get hit twice, and that would be 900 actual damage to their hp, then a regeneration from a druid would beable to heal that fast, 250 hp every 4 seconds for 30 seconds would be appropriate think, could work under the ward to restor the actually damage while the ward buys it some time.</P> <P>If a brawler got realy unlucky and was hit 3 times ina  row, they would loose 2100 hp. The regeneration heals 2000 hp in 30 seconds, and by reaplying the ward, that would give time for this regen to continualy heal before a power draining diricet heal might be needed.</P> <P>Some mobs might have attacks that bypass mitigation, thoughs attacks would be better taken by a brawler than a mitigation tank. Thats the moment when the mitigation tank woudl either need a direct heal or regeneration. The mintigation byspassing attacks coudl be on a 30 second timer, requiring a generous about of damage to be needed to healsed over and extended period, hence regeneration being needed periodically, or a less power efficant direct heal.</P> <P>This adds more of a challenge for the defenseive players to coordinate their efforts, and imo enhanses the overall enjoyment factor of raiding.</P> <P>Toodles!</P>