High End Raiding Server

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV> I see alot of the complaints coming from both ends about either adding more high end content or reducing high end content and everything in between. Now I play more then a casual gamer (have two toons in their mid to high 40's), and less then a hardcore raiding gamer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> On one hand you have to give the high end player things to work for and increasingly harder raid mobs to kill so they get there feeling of accomplishment as well. At the same time, by increasing the diffaculty of the high end game you make it harder for the casual gamer to reach the same power and accomplishments that the hardcore gamer gets to enjoy. The reason for this is that the hardcore gamers generally fight A_Raid_Mob1 first untill it becomes too easy for them and hence, Sony makes the mob tougher so the player still gets a challenge. Now, the mob is too tough for the casual gamer who does not have the experience with the mob or the loot that ws given when the mob was easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> So, I was thinking that a High End Raiding Server (more then 1?) could be created where they can scale everything up (including loot) to keep the high end gamer happy while at the same time keeping things ttrivial enough for the casual gamer. This would make both player types happy and create more of a balance per server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> That is just my idea on one way to help keep the servers from running into the old EQ1 problem with there being such a huge gap in the playerbase from the high end guilds to the casual guilds. If anyone has any ideas on how to improve on this idea or why it would not work, it would be appreciated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Thanks for your time,</DIV> <DIV> Makhail/Krommus</DIV>

[Nibiuno]

Its a good idea, the problem would be having that many uber guilds on one server.  The fights over contested would be insane. <div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<P>mutliple servers then?</P> <P>It would not be a mandatory switch, just something offered to those that feel they need a greater challenge (and greater rewards)</P>

[EtoilePirate]

I think there's always going to be a gap between the Really Serious Super High-End Guilds and Everyone Else.  Even on tiny little Test, where everyone helps everyone else out, you can see the difference in intention and attitude of the player base.  Personally I like the idea of always expanding the in-between content.  One of my favorite changes was when they added new solo/duo zones in the 20s a few months back.  I like the idea of the world being too big to explore thoroughly and there being too many people to talk to and too many quests to do for any one person (except the occasional insane quest addict) even to consider seeing it all or doing them all.  So maybe the solution isn't necessarily putting the high end somewhere else, but simply putting in more, period? That said, your idea is interesting and I hope it sparks an interesting debate. <div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<DIV>ROFL! I love how an idea gets one starred and no response on why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5 stars to everyone else here to counter the karmic effects this one starred bandit has caused to this thread :smileytongue:</DIV>

[korruptidsoul]

I think they should just implement the lvl adjusts to all raid zones. Like in the new Splitpaw zone, they make it to where the raid chooses whether they want to do the raid zone at normal lvl, difficult, or extremely difficult. Scale loot accordingly and everyone is happy.

[Shadowstryd]

<DIV>Here's my Idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make instance raid zones have difficulty settings. Normal, Hard, Very Hard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make instance raid zones with scaleable settings also have diffrent loot tables.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Normal = No Change to current loot tables</DIV> <DIV>Hard = Chance to drop masters % is better and slight increase to loot table.</DIV> <DIV>Very Hard = Best loot table always a master.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps diffrent timers on each setting as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Normal = Same lockout as is now</DIV> <DIV>Hard = 3 Day lockout</DIV> <DIV>Very Hard = 6 Day Lockout</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would also like to see them add more raid zones like the CT instance for froggy quest. It feals so much more like raiding when you actually go into a zone for a extended length of time killing multiple diffrent types of targets. I really think that if they added more raid zones that actually takes a lengthy time to raid from start to finish that this would make them more valuable to top raid guilds and make statics more available to the casual player.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korruptidsoul wrote:<BR>I think they should just implement the lvl adjusts to all raid zones. Like in the new Splitpaw zone, they make it to where the raid chooses whether they want to do the raid zone at normal lvl, difficult, or extremely difficult. Scale loot accordingly and everyone is happy. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> That is actually a very good idea as well. This would allow the more casual guilds to have a chance to beat the mob and also permit the hard core guilds to have more difficult mobs to raid as well as get more uber loot.</P> <P> This would also make the cuurent raid zones a viable source of raiding once the level cap increases to 60.</P> <P> Alot better then my original idea and keeps our current communities together... wish this would have came to mind first :smileywink:</P>

[mellowknees72]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadowstryder wrote:<BR> <DIV>Here's my Idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make instance raid zones have difficulty settings. Normal, Hard, Very Hard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make instance raid zones with scaleable settings also have diffrent loot tables.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Normal = No Change to current loot tables</DIV> <DIV>Hard = Chance to drop masters % is better and slight increase to loot table.</DIV> <DIV>Very Hard = Best loot table always a master.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps diffrent timers on each setting as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Normal = Same lockout as is now</DIV> <DIV>Hard = 3 Day lockout</DIV> <DIV>Very Hard = 6 Day Lockout</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would also like to see them add more raid zones like the CT instance for froggy quest. It feals so much more like raiding when you actually go into a zone for a extended length of time killing multiple diffrent types of targets. I really think that if they added more raid zones that actually takes a lengthy time to raid from start to finish that this would make them more valuable to top raid guilds and make statics more available to the casual player.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I love this idea.  Especially now that we've seen what can be done with this since the new Splitpaw Adventure Pack has been released.</P> <P>I tend to play with a very small circle of friends.  We've been playing together for years (in EQ1 as well as EQ2).  We've gotten to the point where we have such a nice, tight-knit group that we managed to do a lot of things in EQ1 that people said we could never do (we used to routinely win regular-challenge LDoN missions with only 3 people - a monk, a druid, and a beastlord) and so far in EQ2, we're faring pretty well.</P> <P>We'll never be a "high end raiding guild" because it's not what we want.  However, offering up some raid content where we could scale the level would be awesome.  It would give casual/small group players the opportunity to fight some of the same mobs as "the big boys" and come away winners.  That would be <STRIKE>awesome</STRIKE> very cool!</P> <P>One of the big things about the Lost Dungeons of Norrath (LDoN) expansion in EQ1 that made it so popular was that it allowed casual players to amass points and purchase items equivalent to high end raid content, without having to have 144 friends to raid with.  </P> <P>I think anything that can be added to EQ2 that offers similar flexibility, zone scaling based on level and challenge selected, and rewards that reflect the level of challenge is <STRIKE>awesome</STRIKE> a great addition to the game and will definitely keep players interested for the long haul.</P> <P><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <DIV>(umm...edited because I used the word "AWESOME" entirely too many times....)</DIV><p>Message Edited by mellowknees72 on <span class=date_text>07-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:14 PM</span>

[Vashn]

<DIV>The new exchange servers should be seeing a lot of high end action....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are gonna be chock full of cash laden high end characters with unlimited coin..</DIV>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korruptidsoul wrote:<BR>I think they should just implement the lvl adjusts to all raid zones. Like in the new Splitpaw zone, they make it to where the raid chooses whether they want to do the raid zone at normal lvl, difficult, or extremely difficult. Scale loot accordingly and everyone is happy. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While we'll certainly be watching how successful the idea is in the Splitpaw raid zone, it isn't just a simple matter of cloning every raid. The hard version of the Splitpaw end raid isn't just the same mobs a couple levels higher; it's designed and built differently. That takes time, as does creating items for all those different versions.</P> <P>Everyone wants more content; that's a given. But the solution for making the game more compelling isn't to rely on math and formulae to crank out instances or items; it's hand-crafting storylines and events that make sense.</P> <P>Full-on raid zones like the froglok instance take considerable amounts of time and attention. The new single-group raid zone that's coming as part of the next live event also took a lot of effort to craft. Even using existing geometry, entertaining zones and raids aren't made by rushing them out.</P> <P>All that said, our designers are getting darn good at creating exciting and compelling content with a sharp focus--the Splitpaw Saga is proof of that. When you see the stuff coming in the expansion, I think you'll continue to be impressed.</P>

[aislynn00]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR>Everyone wants more content; that's a given. But the solution for making the game more compelling isn't to rely on math and formulae to crank out instances or items; it's hand-crafting storylines and events that make sense. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Honestly, I would prefer a randomly generated epic(x2) or epic(x3) raid zone, with or without scaled mob levels, rather than having to sit and wait with my hands in my lap, hoping that SOE will eventually get around to creating a few raids for those guilds who don't have 24 actively played 50th level characters available yet would like to start raiding, via mentoring if need be, while getting the membership count up and everyone past 45th.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many true epic(x2) or epic(x3) instanced zones are in existence today? You are able to count them on one hand.  Now try counting the many epic(x4) instances out there, and just for fun, see how many of them cater solely to 45+ level raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, is it too much to ask that you add two additional epic(x2) zones plus two additional epic(x3) zones per 10 levels?  Hell, most guilds don't even want to raid until they hit their 30's, so that wouldn't amount to more than eight new zones (four zones for small 30th - 40th level raids, four zones for small 40th to 50th level raids).  And yet, those eight additional zones would mean the world to guilds like my own: it would actually give us a fair chance of growing into a full-fledged raiding guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Khayne Darkmere</DIV> <DIV>Leader of Elysian Dawn</DIV> <DIV>Lucan D'Lere</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[fornarina]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <p>Everyone wants more content; that's a given. But the solution for making the game more compelling isn't to rely on math and formulae to crank out instances or items; it's hand-crafting storylines and events that make sense.</p><hr></blockquote> Oh please keep on with this spirit! Recently (with splitpaw) you made me happy again. And not for the "numbers" of the adventure pack, but for its deepness lore-wise and for its good storylines and quests. While I am sure we need more and more and more and more raid content, mobs, and most of all items for customization (It seems that Splitpaw is going in thew right direction here too...), EQ2 have to keep the standard of the quests and the storyline very high. So, two thumbs up for the quoted text from Moorgard <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> --</span><div></div>

[YanariiFV]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Full-on raid zones like the froglok instance take considerable amounts of time and attention. The new single-group raid zone that's coming as part of the next live event also took a lot of effort to craft. Even using existing geometry, entertaining zones and raids aren't made by rushing them out.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Is that why the old/released content that comes before the bloodline chronicles, the plague event, the frogloks and splitpaw is still not fixed, why your combat revamping and spell revamping is taking ages, why some spells take 4 Live Update fixes claiming to be fixed and are still not working, why fixes to certain spells are only half fixes... ?</DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P><BR>All that said, our designers are getting darn good at creating exciting and compelling content with a sharp focus--the Splitpaw Saga is proof of that. When you see the stuff coming in the expansion, I think you'll continue to be impressed.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P> </P> <P>What would impress me personally, is fixing existing content from quests to journal entries from spells/skills to spell/skill-upgrades.  New content is fine and exciting and keeps your customers coming back every so often in between breaks, however working content and unbugged quests, spells/skills, combat, ... would actually keep them rather then taking breaks and hope that after a few weeks when they come back to check most of the stuff is fixed.</P> <P>But hey, I'm certain you'll be telling me that that's being dealt with by a different development team and has no influence on expansions and added content.  At which point I wonder why you're not investing more time in the team that fixes stuff rather than those making the new stuff that then leave it to the ones that can't fix it when it's released.</P> <P>If however the teams stay where they are, you have how many teams? one for the original everquest 2 release.  One for the events like the plague and the frogloks, one for the bloodline chronicles, one for the splitpaw expansion, one for the quests, one for the spells/skills/combat, one for the game's design like zones and clothing, one for tradeskilling, one for the exchange servers, ....  Or is this umbrella system you have in place nothing more then just an excuse?</P> <P>While you may have a lot of work to do yet, and I can understand it takes time to recode things, it seems you're just making more work for yourselves adding more stuff that comes with yet more problems resulting in backdated stuff being ignored or put on hold with no outlook on when it's going to be done.</P> <P>Priest balancing, Mage balancing, so many LU's ago this was promised.  You boosted wizards and warlocks to some extent, then you hid behind the fact the rest of the mage balancing would come with the priest balancing, at which point the priest balancing was being postponed until the combat changes were in effect, at which point you also decided to change spells/skills and how they scale, ....  it seems like an endless cycle.  And all the while nothing's being fixed the way it's supposed to, you release parts of the combat changes/spell changes unintentionally but never revert back leaving us to live with the good or the bad this does...</P> <P>Anyways... a high end raiding server wouldn't solve the plethora of problems there are...</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=2><EM>Edit: forgot conclusion of post</EM></FONT></P><p>Message Edited by YanariiFV on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[Naughtesn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>While we'll certainly be watching how successful the idea is in the Splitpaw raid zone, it isn't just a simple matter of cloning every raid. The hard version of the Splitpaw end raid isn't just the same mobs a couple levels higher; it's designed and built differently. That takes time, as does creating items for all those different versions.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Everyone wants more content; that's a given. But the solution for making the game more compelling isn't to rely on math and formulae to crank out instances or items; it's hand-crafting storylines and events that make sense.</P> <P>Full-on raid zones like the froglok instance take considerable amounts of time and attention. The new single-group raid zone that's coming as part of the next live event also took a lot of effort to craft. Even using existing geometry, entertaining zones and raids aren't made by rushing them out.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Nor should beefed up versions of existing raid content be rushed out.</FONT></P> <P>All that said, our designers are getting darn good at creating exciting and compelling content with a sharp focus--the Splitpaw Saga is proof of that. When you see the stuff coming in the expansion, I think you'll continue to be impressed.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, you have the less difficult version stored on backup I would think - you know - the versions you upgraded from to their currrent state - reference Zalak pls.  And, as far a lore goes - I have never been overwhelmed with storyline in any of the instances.  Zone in, kill a few mobs (maybe), attack boss, gate out (what you have done with BLC and SP notwithstanding) ...  so claiming you would need time to develop storylines is silly.  How much storyline was attached to making the adds in the Zalak encounter AE nuke?  None... you used <FONT color=#ff3300>math and formulae </FONT>to beef up the encounter with additional damage streams and mobs.</P> <P>So you can continue to cater content to the tiny percentage of guilds that trivialize raid content, or you can modify the encounters to reach the vast of majority of players out there.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Naughtesnec on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:27 AM</span>

[Sirlutt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR>Everyone wants more content; that's a given. But the solution for making the game more compelling isn't to rely on math and formulae to crank out instances or items; it's hand-crafting storylines and events that make sense. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Honestly, I would prefer a randomly generated epic(x2) or epic(x3) raid zone, with or without scaled mob levels, rather than having to sit and wait with my hands in my lap, hoping that SOE will eventually get around to creating a few raids for those guilds who don't have 24 actively played 50th level characters available yet would like to start raiding, via mentoring if need be, while getting the membership count up and everyone past 45th.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many true epic(x2) or epic(x3) instanced zones are in existence today? You are able to count them on one hand.  Now try counting the many epic(x4) instances out there, and just for fun, see how many of them cater solely to 45+ level raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, is it too much to ask that you add two additional epic(x2) zones plus two additional epic(x3) zones per 10 levels?  Hell, most guilds don't even want to raid until they hit their 30's, so that wouldn't amount to more than eight new zones (four zones for small 30th - 40th level raids, four zones for small 40th to 50th level raids).  And yet, those eight additional zones would mean the world to guilds like my own: it would actually give us a fair chance of growing into a full-fledged raiding guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Khayne Darkmere</DIV> <DIV>Leader of Elysian Dawn</DIV> <DIV>Lucan D'Lere</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I whole heartedly agree.  I'm on the council of a "fun friendly familly" guild who got tired of constantly losing people when they got to 50 because all they had to do was raiding.  they'd level with us, have a blast and then leave us for one of the "uber" raiding guilds because at 50 they could either harvest, mentor and redo content they have already done or go off having huge adventures in all kinds of awesome zones.</P> <P>so we decided it was time we offered some content for our 45+ players, and to get on it now before we lost too many more.  Catch 22 of the situation is unless we have 24+ 45+ players, most of the good content is out of our reach.  So how do we keep people around long enough for us to level 24 peopel to 45+ ?  Group x2 or even single group content thats rewarding (ie gives us the kind of loot we are going to need to take on the 58^^^x4 content later) is almost non existant.  </P> <P>I started eq2raiders.com to compile a list of the high end content in the game. What I'm finding is that there is not much for T4/T5 mild (as opposed to wild) guilds to do.  There are a few groupx2 instances, a couple of groupx2 contested mobs, but not many of these give the kind of rewards we need to take on the higher end stuff.  We are at the point where we dont have enough to raid the good stuff.. were not equiped to raid the good stuff and the stuff we can raid doesnt drop much in the way of usable loot. (Last 22 times we've done the same MM/Icespire run we have gotten 1 fabled axe - 1 master spell - 2 ebons and 1 ruby... hardly enough to try to kit out 4 tanks, 4healers and 8 DPS).</P> <P>I'd like to see either some scaled down groupx2 versions of the groupx4 content .. or more groupx2 groupx3 content .. its very tough to break into the higher end stuff. </P> <P>I noticed some posts from i think Moorgard lately that kind of indicate that that content insnt meant for anyone but the guilds who invest ALL their time in getting to that level .. thats fine.. have that content.. but i guarantee there are alot more of us "middle of the road" guilds who dont want to sacrifice the comraderie and fun we have with our guilds to become riading machines just to find something interesting to do at 50.. i've talked to a couple of our people who left for uber guilds and outside of doing the actual raids its whole heartedly a boring way of life (i am sure this is not the case for all uber guilds).</P> <P>So anyhow.. devs .. please give us some more groupx2 content .. there must be some way to regulate it so its not farmed by the higher end guilds ?.. surely with their fully fabled tanks they wouldnt waste their time on instances which drop loot less than that.</P> <P>By the way, I think the latest round of increases in level to alot of mobs should have been done by adding a "harder" instance such as in splitpaw.  Add higher AE's, bigger HP, higher level to that zone and also adjust the loot tables to allow the more uber loot to drop more often in those zones.. but please leave something for us casual raiders to do.</P> <P>Thanks.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Sirlutt on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:30 AM</span>

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korruptidsoul wrote:<BR>I think they should just implement the lvl adjusts to all raid zones. Like in the new Splitpaw zone, they make it to where the raid chooses whether they want to do the raid zone at normal lvl, difficult, or extremely difficult. Scale loot accordingly and everyone is happy. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While we'll certainly be watching how successful the idea is in the Splitpaw raid zone, it isn't just a simple matter of cloning every raid. The hard version of the Splitpaw end raid isn't just the same mobs a couple levels higher; it's designed and built differently. That takes time, as does creating items for all those different versions.</P> <P>Everyone wants more content; that's a given. But the solution for making the game more compelling isn't to rely on math and formulae to crank out instances or items; it's hand-crafting storylines and events that make sense.</P> <P>Full-on raid zones like the froglok instance take considerable amounts of time and attention. The new single-group raid zone that's coming as part of the next live event also took a lot of effort to craft. Even using existing geometry, entertaining zones and raids aren't made by rushing them out.</P> <P>All that said, our designers are getting darn good at creating exciting and compelling content with a sharp focus--the Splitpaw Saga is proof of that. When you see the stuff coming in the expansion, I think you'll continue to be impressed.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok this is out of thread, but I think that the art team show their true potential too with the new gnoll model and animation. Is it possible to see this potential again?  to improved our characters models and animations? <P>EDIT: I would gladly pay 10$ for a new set of animation for each race (different one) and improved models/armor.</P><p>Message Edited by Stradeus on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 AM</span>

[Pipp]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote: While we'll certainly be watching how successful the idea is in the Splitpaw raid zone, it isn't just a simple matter of cloning every raid. The hard version of the Splitpaw end raid isn't just the same mobs a couple levels higher; it's designed and built differently. That takes time, as does creating items for all those different versions. <p>Everyone wants more content; that's a given. But the solution for making the game more compelling isn't to rely on math and formulae to crank out instances or items; it's hand-crafting storylines and events that make sense.</p> <p>Full-on raid zones like the froglok instance take considerable amounts of time and attention. The new single-group raid zone that's coming as part of the next live event also took a lot of effort to craft. Even using existing geometry, entertaining zones and raids aren't made by rushing them out.</p> <p>All that said, our designers are getting darn good at creating exciting and compelling content with a sharp focus--the Splitpaw Saga is proof of that. When you see the stuff coming in the expansion, I think you'll continue to be impressed. </p><hr></blockquote></span> <div></div>You VAK!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Pipple on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:54 AM</span>

[Pipp]

On with the reply though: No, no no no no.  Instancing every raid encounter to be tailored to your level simply because you want to do it shouldn't happen.  To me it cheapens the game. There is already plenty of raid content out in the game world for all levels, you just need to look around (Deathfist?  Firemyst?). Once content because attainable by everyone from all levels the challenge becomes trivial to most and is almost a slap in the face to those that have worked for months just to get a crack at such an attempt. I hope that the management at SOE understand this and respect it (I'm sure the devs and content designers do), otherwise certain other games beginning with a V will be just that much more desirable to those high-end players that want hard-to-get, almost-unattainable items and status associated with it. <div></div>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Moorgard wrote: <P>But the solution for making the game more compelling isn't to rely on math and formulae to crank out instances or items; it's hand-crafting storylines and events that make sense.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hurrah!  Assuming things hold true to your word we can avoid another Shadows of Luclin tragedy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Seriously though, I agree 100% that encounters and zones should be unique and have special attention put into their creation, rather than just upping some numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Moorgard wrote: <P>The new single-group raid zone that's coming as part of the next live event also took a lot of effort to craft.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Single-group raid zone....isnt that an oxymoron?  While I can see the possibilities for that, I would strongly encourage another full raid zone like spirits of the lost.  IMO that zone was a huge hit and a lot of fun for the raiding player base.  Not only did it take them longer than a day or two to complete, it took up a good chunk of raiding time and rewarded the players nicely.  My one suggestion would be make all these special titles like "of the shard" and "hero of Kuggup" only be awarded to the first groups server wide to earn them.  While I personally would not have all the titles then, it would be cool to see some one run by and know they were the ones who pioneered it on the server.<BR></DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Pipple wrote:<BR>On with the reply though:<BR><BR>No, no no no no.  Instancing every raid encounter to be tailored to your level simply because you want to do it shouldn't happen.  To me it cheapens the game.<BR><BR>There is already plenty of raid content out in the game world for all levels, you just need to look around (Deathfist?  Firemyst?).</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Wow two whole things to do if your in a small guild with close friends.. /sarcastic woot</FONT><BR><BR>Once content because attainable by everyone from all levels the challenge becomes trivial to most and is almost a slap in the face to those that have worked for months just to get a crack at such an attempt.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>But if the rewards scale and you put a minimum level on the zone (like they did in splitpaw) then you do not trivialize anything. What you do is give everyone who plays s much as you, pays as much as you, but just wants to be in a guild with just there friends a chance at seeing the same content as you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Not to be rude, but you statement comes off as a "Its not fair someone else gets to do something I can do" whine.</FONT><BR><BR>I hope that the management at SOE understand this and respect it (I'm sure the devs and content designers do), otherwise certain other games beginning with a V will be just that much more desirable to those high-end players that want hard-to-get, almost-unattainable items and status associated with it.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>How does this stop high-end players from getting "Hard-to-get items"? The high end guild of course would get better items due to the fact that the zone rewards would scale up as well as difficulty.. allowing the "high-end" guild to still get the best items..</FONT><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[aislynn00]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Pipple wrote:<BR>There is already plenty of raid content out in the game world for all levels, you just need to look around (Deathfist?  Firemyst?) <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Give me a break.</P> <P>Apart from innumerable heroic encounters, Deathfist Citadel sports one single epic(x2) mob at the very end of the zone and is easily single-groupable.  Hell, my girlfriend and I did the entire zone with just the two of us, I playing a 44th level guardian at the time, she, a 44th level templar and a 38th level ranger.  Nothing, including Emperor Fyst himself, was even halfway challenging.  And of course, having done the zone several times with guildmates, nothing ever seems to drop metal chests either.</P> <P>And Firemyst Gully?  What, exactly, are we smaller guilds supposed to raid there?  The 54 epic(x4) zone with the lich, perhaps?  Even with a 50th level guardian main tank, it is hardly what you would consider a feasible target for two groups with an average level of 40.  Or were you thinking the 28 epic(x2) city quest raid which never drops metal chests and doesn't result in any other kind of reward either?  Yeah, that is going to keep our guildmates interested and help us gear up for tougher challenges.<BR><BR>The only true instanced raid zone currently available to my guild is the Trembling Lagoon off the Feerrott, and in order to even have a chance of chest drops in that zone, we have to mentor lower-level guildmates.  Pretty ridiculous, I say, that we don't have even one single epic(x2) or epic(x3) zone available to us without mentoring 6 - 10 levels down from 50th, so we don't trivialize the content.</P> <P>And even in light of this, high-end raiding guilds still complain that <EM>they</EM> are lacking content?  Yeah, right.<BR><BR></P> <HR> Khayne Darkmere<BR>Leader of Elysian Dawn<BR>Lucan D'Lere <P> </P><p>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:10 AM</span>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korruptidsoul wrote:<BR>I think they should just implement the lvl adjusts to all raid zones. Like in the new Splitpaw zone, they make it to where the raid chooses whether they want to do the raid zone at normal lvl, difficult, or extremely difficult. Scale loot accordingly and everyone is happy. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While we'll certainly be watching how successful the idea is in the Splitpaw raid zone, it isn't just a simple matter of cloning every raid. The hard version of the Splitpaw end raid isn't just the same mobs a couple levels higher; it's designed and built differently. That takes time, as does creating items for all those different versions.</P> <P>Everyone wants more content; that's a given. But the solution for making the game more compelling isn't to rely on math and formulae to crank out instances or items; it's hand-crafting storylines and events that make sense.</P> <P>Full-on raid zones like the froglok instance take considerable amounts of time and attention. The new single-group raid zone that's coming as part of the next live event also took a lot of effort to craft. Even using existing geometry, entertaining zones and raids aren't made by rushing them out.</P> <P>All that said, our designers are getting darn good at creating exciting and compelling content with a sharp focus--the Splitpaw Saga is proof of that. When you see the stuff coming in the expansion, I think you'll continue to be impressed.</P><hr></blockquote>Splitpaw is great Moorgard. Please extend these ideas and setups to new content. Heck it would be great if you extended it to old content. Wouldn't it be great to add instanced zones to lower level zones, say Blackburrow or wailing caves that had interactive objects, and puzzles to solve?Without giving away things, the Broken Teleporter quest in Splitpaw was so much fun. The best part, I can do it again with people that haven't done it and still have fun!.The new things introduced in splitpaw takes the game away from simply kill the mob, take the loot. It's added a level of thinking and planning and stragey that I like. And the best part, if a player doesn't want that, they can avoid it and just do the kill the mob, take the loot.

[MakhailSamma]

Jeebus, the 1 star guy is having a fit with this thread.. 5 stars to undue his evil karma again!

[Vellek]

<P>I just hope that developers start to realize that top guilds are a lot better than they think. THaen, KDal, Spirits of the Lost, and Splitpaw where all beaten by multiple guilds the first week they were released. </P> <P>There is a challenge initially, but I am still hoping for something that isnt beaten for weeks or months after it goes live. </P>

[Jgok]

There is a bit of progression in the game for lower-end guild... The problem is it peters out at the high end and from then on is almost all designed for 24 level 50 people. A look at the progression, and the problems with each x2 raid... (the number in parenthesis is the average raid level to get loot possibilities from all encounters) <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guild Level 5 (20) - steel chest? what steel chest?</DIV> <DIV>Guild Level 10 (25) - see Guild Level 5</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Bloodskull Valley (25) - Outleveled so quickly it isn't funny</DIV>Guild Level 15 (30) - see Guild Level 5</DIV> <DIV>Guild Level 20 (35) - see Guild Level 5</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Cauldron Hollow (35) - also outleveled too quickly, more than x2</DIV> <DIV>Cove of Decay (35ish?) - ha, like 4 raid encounters that are outleveled before you zone in</DIV>Guild Level 25 (40) - see Guild Level 5</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Deathfist Citadel (40?) - 1 master chest in 20+ runs at DFC, easily doable with a single group, incredibly buggy</DIV> <DIV>Trembling Lagoon (40) - the only decently done x2 raid I've seen, was actually fun... the first few times</DIV> <DIV>Icespire Summit (45) - 1 whole raid encounter, yay... oh yeah, single-group, too</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maiden's Gulch (50) - AFAIK, the only 2-group level 50 raid out there... and has dropped a lava-drenched ebon torque 6 times for me now... oh yeah... 1 whole raid encounter, yay</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think a lot of people here seem to want the "raid zone" rather than "instanced encounter" feeling. Maiden's Gulch for TSaaD is a case in point... run your 12 guys all the way across Lavastorm, zone in, kill one mob, leave... not really fun. In fact, on my first run at MG, we had more deaths getting people to the zone than on the raid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zones like Trembling Lagoon and Spirits of the Lost have different encounters, progression through the zone (limited in TL, but still there), triggered mobs, etc... they're more fun. So I'll join the people calling for more immersive and involving raid zones... especially group x2 zones.</DIV>

[NerroVI]

And Jgok hit's the nail on the head. They made EQ2 to simple to level, they put in to much solo content, not enought early contested raid mobs.  The guild Writ system for raids is a joke, once we got guild level 5 I think most of our guild was level 30ish guild level 10 we were in 35+ range we are now guild level 24 otw to 25 were all level 50 just about and we gave up even wasting time on guild writ raids cos the mobs were always grey.  I am REALLY hoping for the new expansion they make it take longer then a week or less to get from 50-60. I played EQ, I did Sleepers tomb, did VT, did EP , did Time, did  GoD stuff, and the only way I can forsee more challanging raid encounters that are more then just field 12-24 ppl is to have more then 2 or 3 steps for access quests, make instances more involved, make them with the idea of all see invis mobs, fighting down to a raid mob, as of right now i can think of several instances where we can just snag 2 group invisers or 1 group inviser etc invis maybe kill a trigger mob and get straight to the named mobs wipe the floor and get out of dodge.  Make zones non escapable no gatable one way, like the old dungeons in Frontier Mountains, umm Temple of Droga and Mines of Nurga I believe they were, where one u zone in and drop down you have to fight thru the dungeon. Make failures really a failure.  You zone in and screw up 1/3 the way in and wipe thats it.  You get to the first set of mobs and some how mess up thats it your out if no one can rez etc.  The game is already far to easy for every single type of player that is in game from casual to soloer to group oriented to raider.  The thing that made EQ such a challange was if you really screwed the pooch you paid for it, you had to do mass rezzing, or mobs that wouldnt be up for 3 days <ie coirnav>, loosing level was another thing that kept ppl honest in EQ, this exp debt stuff isnt tough enough, oh wellz i got exp debt but thats ok cos I still have new uber ability and just power thru 5-10 solo mobs and back at it. Sorry to derail, but this is the main issues I see and alot of other people see. <div></div>

[mellowknees72]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NerroVI wrote:<BR>And Jgok hit's the nail on the head.<BR><BR>They made EQ2 to simple to level, they put in to much solo content, not enought early contested raid mobs.  The guild Writ system for raids is a joke, once we got guild level 5 I think most of our guild was level 30ish guild level 10 we were in 35+ range we are now guild level 24 otw to 25 were all level 50 just about and we gave up even wasting time on guild writ raids cos the mobs were always grey.  I am REALLY hoping for the new expansion they make it take longer then a week or less to get from 50-60.<BR><BR>I played EQ, I did Sleepers tomb, did VT, did EP , did Time, did  GoD stuff, and the only way I can forsee more challanging raid encounters that are more then just field 12-24 ppl is to have more then 2 or 3 steps for access quests, make instances more involved, make them with the idea of all see invis mobs, fighting down to a raid mob, as of right now i can think of several instances where we can just snag 2 group invisers or 1 group inviser etc invis maybe kill a trigger mob and get straight to the named mobs wipe the floor and get out of dodge.  Make zones non escapable no gatable one way, like the old dungeons in Frontier Mountains, umm Temple of Droga and Mines of Nurga I believe they were, where one u zone in and drop down you have to fight thru the dungeon.<BR><BR>Make failures really a failure.  You zone in and screw up 1/3 the way in and wipe thats it.  You get to the first set of mobs and some how mess up thats it your out if no one can rez etc.  The game is already far to easy for every single type of player that is in game from casual to soloer to group oriented to raider.  The thing that made EQ such a challange was if you really screwed the pooch you paid for it, you had to do mass rezzing, or mobs that wouldnt be up for 3 days , loosing level was another thing that kept ppl honest in EQ, this exp debt stuff isnt tough enough, oh wellz i got exp debt but thats ok cos I still have new uber ability and just power thru 5-10 solo mobs and back at it.<BR><BR>Sorry to derail, but this is the main issues I see and alot of other people see.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You've got some great points there, but from a different perspective, I don't entirely agree with everything said.  I also played EQ1, did several planes and plane raids, including Hate, Fear, Air, Tactics.  Never made it to Time, but I didn't really want to.  I've got enough work at my job, I didn't want to have to work in my game life, too.  That's one of the things that I LOVE about EQ2 -- this game feels like a GAME, and not like a JOB.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would say please don't make zones non-gateable, non-escapeable.  It's fine to have one zone in and one zone out at the other end to make it more challenging, but forcing people to get stuck is not fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would say that SOE should leave the solo content that has been added as it is great for those of us who enjoy soloing or having the option to play in a duo rather than not being able to do anything fun unless you have a whole, traditional group of six players.  It would be fine to add more group/heroic content, as long as it could be done without removing solo/small group content. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In other words, I do not want to see this game become EQ1 with a fancier package.  The whole raiding-is-the-only-thing-to-do-at-level-65 thing got way out of control and became increasingly boring.  Going on raid after raid, getting yelled at constantly by raid leaders, wiping out time and time again...these are things I hope to never ever have to do again, especially not in New Norrath, where I've carved out a very fun, gnoll-whompin' existence for myself. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I DO agree about the guild raids, though...they <U>totally</U> blow.  Having a very small guild, we're working our way to level 10 now (about 9.3 atm) but most of our folks are around level 40.  Doing a raid intended for levels 15-20 is not really a fun time for us, even if we mentor down.  I'd love to see the guild quests become scale-able (like Splitpaw) as well.  Would be great to have raids that scale to the average group level, as well as offering the choice of regular, hard, and very hard challenge levels.  I also agree that if you had to actually fight your way to the raid mob, it would be more fun and feel like more of a challenge.  I've gone through the level 5 guild raid a couple times now (mentored down to do it so we could actually get drops) and it was very easy to go from epic mob to epic mob, since there was nothing in our way in between.  The drops were basically fodder for selling since we were all much higher level than anyone who could use them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Probably when we get to level 10, we'll all just go and get the quest so we can continue to do adventuring writs, and we'll hold off on doing the raid until someone has an alt of appropriate level that we can mentor.</DIV>

[Fellgaze]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MakhailSammael wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Pipple wrote:<BR>On with the reply though:<BR><BR>No, no no no no.  Instancing every raid encounter to be tailored to your level simply because you want to do it shouldn't happen.  To me it cheapens the game.<BR><BR>There is already plenty of raid content out in the game world for all levels, you just need to look around (Deathfist?  Firemyst?).</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Wow two whole things to do if your in a small guild with close friends.. /sarcastic woot</FONT><BR><BR>Once content because attainable by everyone from all levels the challenge becomes trivial to most and is almost a slap in the face to those that have worked for months just to get a crack at such an attempt.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>But if the rewards scale and you put a minimum level on the zone (like they did in splitpaw) then you do not trivialize anything. What you do is give everyone who plays s much as you, pays as much as you, but just wants to be in a guild with just there friends a chance at seeing the same content as you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Not to be rude, but you statement comes off as a "Its not fair someone else gets to do something I can do" whine.</FONT><BR><BR>I hope that the management at SOE understand this and respect it (I'm sure the devs and content designers do), otherwise certain other games beginning with a V will be just that much more desirable to those high-end players that want hard-to-get, almost-unattainable items and status associated with it.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>How does this stop high-end players from getting "Hard-to-get items"? The high end guild of course would get better items due to the fact that the zone rewards would scale up as well as difficulty.. allowing the "high-end" guild to still get the best items..</FONT><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Makhail, the sad truth is..."uber" guilds aren't just happy with defeating high-end encounters, they want to be the ONLY ones to do so. It's not just "Look at this cool item I have!", it's "Look at this cool item I have that YOU DON'T!!".</P> <P>Sorry, but I have yet to see any post from any member of any "high-end" guild that comes out and contradicts this. </P> <P> </P>

[Jgok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mellowknees72 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[snip]</DIV> <DIV><BR>I would say that SOE should leave the solo content that has been added as it is great for those of us who enjoy soloing or having the option to play in a duo rather than not being able to do anything fun unless you have a whole, traditional group of six players.  It would be fine to add more group/heroic content, as long as it could be done without removing solo/small group content. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[snip]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I DO agree about the guild raids, though...they <U>totally</U> blow.  Having a very small guild, we're working our way to level 10 now (about 9.3 atm) but most of our folks are around level 40.  Doing a raid intended for levels 15-20 is not really a fun time for us, even if we mentor down.  I'd love to see the guild quests become scale-able (like Splitpaw) as well.  Would be great to have raids that scale to the average group level, as well as offering the choice of regular, hard, and very hard challenge levels.  I also agree that if you had to actually fight your way to the raid mob, it would be more fun and feel like more of a challenge.  I've gone through the level 5 guild raid a couple times now (mentored down to do it so we could actually get drops) and it was very easy to go from epic mob to epic mob, since there was nothing in our way in between.  The drops were basically fodder for selling since we were all much higher level than anyone who could use them.</DIV> <DIV><BR>[and... snip]</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I definitely DO NOT want solo content to be reduced... In fact, I'd like to see more solo instances, or solo/group instances (Delving in the Darkness, Upper Tunnels, Harclave, Filch's Prank, stuff like that) put into the game. Sometimes I don't want to group or raid... Sometimes I just want to go out and smash things into the ground with my purple monkey, or slice through content with my froggy 2-boxers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very nice suggestions about the guild raids, IMO. I think SOE designed the guild system with the intention of leveling the guild at the same rate as (or slightly slower than) the characters in it, but it just didn't work out this way. The experience gain rate is such that doing zek writs at level 30, you can have your whole patron force in the next tier of writs before you've gained half of guild level 19... I know, I've seen it. Currently, the only 2 reasons to go on a guild raid are to equip alts, or just for the heck of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the guild raids were scaled to level (even if just within a certain range), that would add more opportunities for training, and more opportunities for gearing up. I have done each guild raid from guild level 5-20 multiple times (10+ on the level 5 raid) and only seen one master chest. I would even go so far as to estimate 35+ times entering a guild raid instance, and I got a master chest in the level 5 raid, and it contained a little level 20 weapon of some kind that was <STRONG>barely</STRONG> better than an blackened iron weapon (T2 rare crafted). Compare it against the imbued rare T2 (which did not exist at that time), and there's no contest. Most of the times I've gone through a guild raid, the guild as a whole came uip with less than 20g of vendor fodder, and no useful items at all (not even rare TS stuff).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they didn't want to go to the trouble of fully scaling based on level, it could even be as simple as putting rounded difficulty tiers on each guild raid... An example, using the level 5 guild raid...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Normal: High Shaman Vascha, level 19</DIV> <DIV>Difficult: High Shaman Vascha, level 24</DIV> <DIV>Very Difficult: High Shaman Vascha, level 29</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doing this would triple the usefulness of these raids. It would be better to fully scale them to the average raid level, IMO. High Shaman Vascha at level 15 was a pretty scary fight, with all those nasty DoTs and debuffs... Imagine her/him/it at level 54... The other thing in the guild raids that needs to be looked at is loot. You read above what I've found for loot in most guild raids... It's worthless. If the guild raids are truly meant as a way to gear up and train for later raids, at least put some more rare tradeskill component drops in there... That would hardly bork the economy too much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to see some zone useage statistics for the guild raids (I know I'll never see it, but I'd like to)... I'd bet these are some of the least-used instances in the game since launch. Most guilds I know did each raid once, just for the quest count, and then promptly forgot about ever doing them again.</DIV>

[Jgok]

I'm going to add about the instancing and level-scaling... I would NOT want to see lower-level scaled versions of these zones... The guild level 10 raid starts out with the boss mob at level 24, and it should never go lower than that. I do not want to see a level 40 version of Maiden's Gulch. I do not want a level 35 version of Trembling Lagoon. I want to see the number of raid zones increase as you level. Currently, you get one or two new "raid" zones every 10 levels, and then at level 50, you have Maiden's Gulch, and the higher stuff. I want a level 50 version of Bloodskull Valley. Let Trembling Lagoon scale from 40-50. Scale DFC up to level 50, once you fix the farkin bugs in that place.