We need a way to copy characters over to TEST.

[PorkCho]

<DIV>Without paying money. Im not going to pay $200 (my wifes character and mine) to help you test. You want us to help, give us the resources to test. Since we are doing Sony and Everquest2 a service, why can we not just be able to copy our chracters over free of charge.  Every service you have(Sony, EQ2) costs, think of our service as costing 1 free character transfer per account.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Aura08]

I have heard about whole guilds being copied over to test servers. These guilds even said they were given a copy of there normal char onto the test servers. I ready about them saying there guild was back when froglocks were put in and there was alot of angry people because this guild was given the right to have there char copied onto test servers and no one else is able to. They were/are able to log in and test all the new stuff as a guild. People were complaining that it was unfar for this whole guild to get there char's copied to test server. I agree with this because the other day I sent in a request to get my char copied over to test servers because I wanted to help them test high lvl content, but I did not feel like lvl'ing a test char all the way to 50. I was told that they can not, and are not allowed to copy a char over to a test server and closed the request. I sent another way saying about that whole guild that was copied over to test and after a week and a half I deleted it because I seen they would not reply.

[Kreegan]

<P>Some guilds are asked to testy high end raid content.  For those tests the guild is copied over for a short amount of time.</P> <P>The devs have already said they have no intention of allowing people to copy their characters over to test.  They want individuals who are willing to actually test and try to find and report bugs and issues.  They do not want to set up a system where people can copy their character over a few days before a live update  just to see how their character is affected.</P>

[Aura08]

This is a good reason for them not to send copys of char over to test. But they have to look at the facts. The people on the test server are not getting the job done. This can be do to them not trying, or to the fact of they are missing the lvl range of char's to give this content a good test. It seeming to only be getting worse and not better. The patchs are taking longer and longer to load into the game and they are having more and more bugs in the game itself. I remember when they first changed the CT hear of fear quest with those gems. A few friends and myself went in to do it and everything we started the ring event on top the temple the zone would crash. We tested this 4 times and every time we started the ring it would crash the zone. Sometimes it was take a few waves of the ring event to happen. That quest was a high demand quest back then and somthing that big should have been found out in test. Most likly there just was not the amout of people that lvl range to even do the event. If we were allowed to copy ONLY 1 char to test then those people who want to help make the game better and have less buggs when the content is released would be in there working on finding them those bugs. Untill that time we can only complain about test servers not getting the job done, and having to deal with content with so many bugs people do not want to even go in it. Like with splitpaw I have 3groups disband because they were just going to wait till the splitpaw zones get fixed because it was so bad it was crashing ever half hour or more. Then the lower tunnels zones was not even up it was crashed till the servers were taken down later in the day for a patch to fix some of the stuff in that zone

[Na]

<span><blockquote><hr>Aura0819 wrote:The people on the test server are not getting the job done...  Untill that time we can only complain about test servers not getting the job done, and having to deal with content with so many bugs people do not want to even go in it. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I've said it once and I'll continue to say it. Unless you play on test, unless you can read the Tester Only Forum (not this public one), you have NO idea which bugs have and have not been reported by the players on the test server.  Just because a bug does not get fixed before it goes live does not mean that the test server population isn't doing their job. Is it probable that they miss bugs? Certainly. I don't think anyone on the test server would claim that they catch 100% of the bugs. But more than likely SOE has determined that the bug isn't severe enough to be fixed before going to live. There have also been several devs who've stated that copying the data to the live servers can cause bugs. What does that mean? That for some reason when the data was posted to the test server, the bug didn't exist but once the data was copied to the live server it introduced the bug. There would be no way for the test server population to catch that.  </span><div></div>

[Iseabeil]

<DIV>i havent played as much on test as i planned to, but i know of many times when bugs have been reported and yet made it live. id say most of bugs we see arent there cause test missed them, they are there cause they werent seen as bad enough to delay the update hitting live. wether this is a good or bad thing is of course debatable, but thats SoEs choise. having copid toons would not improve the situation, might even risk to slow it down as overrepeated /bugs takes time to go through.</DIV>

[HanktheDwarf]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kreegan wrote:<div></div> <p>Some guilds are asked to testy high end raid content.  For those tests the guild is copied over for a short amount of time.</p> <p>The devs have already said they have no intention of allowing people to copy their characters over to test.  They want individuals who are willing to actually test and try to find and report bugs and issues.  They do not want to set up a system where people can copy their character over a few days before a live update  just to see how their character is affected.</p><hr></blockquote>/giggle.  They aren't copied for 'a short amount of time'.  That would imply they are deleted after use.  Which they aren't.  In fact, some of them are copied over multiple times, as evident by the guild tag having not one, but two x's at the end of the name.</span><div></div>

[Heiro]

<P>Poor horsie... </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>dead and still being beat on</P>

[Fire&ice]

<DIV> <P>/agree Heiro  :smileysad:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></DIV>

[TheMightyTaco]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kreegan wrote:<div></div><p> They do not want to set up a system where people can copy their character over a few days before a live update  just to see how their character is affected.</p><hr></blockquote> Nothing against what you said, Kreegan. But if the quoted statement is true then they are purposefully trying to get people to NOT test changes. It seems to me if you want to test how changes have affected the game you'd want people to test how changes have affected the game. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MisterCode wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kreegan wrote:<BR> <P> They do not want to set up a system where people can copy their character over a few days before a live update  just to see how their character is affected.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nothing against what you said, Kreegan. But if the quoted statement is true then they are purposefully trying to get people to NOT test changes. It seems to me if you want to test how changes have affected the game you'd want people to test how changes have affected the game. <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Test goes on Live Builds between patches.  In fact, we're on a live build right now, or at least we were when I last logged in.  It's not like Test is 100% of the time a totally different server.  Right now, Test and Live are the exact same.  Then they patch Test with something new and shiny, and that's a Test build, and we can all tell if it's the same or different because of, well, if it's the same or different.  Once in a while there are things we can't remember, true, but usually those "is this different, or am I imagining..." questions are answered (1) by reviewing logs, and (2) by detailed patch notes, when we can actually get them.  Also we can communicate directly with QA and devs and ask them if they changed something.</P> <P>But anyway, we do test how changes have affected the game, because we go on Live builds in between patches.  That's what I'm getting at.</P>

[TheMightyTaco]

I didn't mean to imply that SOE doesn't see the changes that have been made. What I meant to point out was that people moving characters from live to test to see what the changes do to their characters is a good thing. Take for instance, the 200% deadly trap damage on solo instances of Splitpaw. I have a character on test but didn't get a chance to go near Splitpaw because he is just a lowly level 6 at this point. If I was able to copy my main over, I'd be able to run him through and see just what was in store. Perhaps testing DID get feedback about chests killing people in solo instances (forcing them the revive and loose their loot). I'd hope that the problem wasn't that the bug/behavior was intended or ignored, but rather noone tested it. That is all I was getting at. If the testing feedback was ignored then it's all moot and there isn't a real need for a test server anyway. <div></div>

[Kreegan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MisterCode wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kreegan wrote:<BR> <P> They do not want to set up a system where people can copy their character over a few days before a live update  just to see how their character is affected.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nothing against what you said, Kreegan. But if the quoted statement is true then they are purposefully trying to get people to NOT test changes. It seems to me if you want to test how changes have affected the game you'd want people to test how changes have affected the game. <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What I ment by my post was that if SOE allowed everyone to copy over their characters at-will then you'd get far more people loggin on to see how the changes affected them than doing actual testing.  By actual testng I mean someone who see's something wrong, tries it again to see if its repeatabel, files a detailed bug report, and then discusses it on the Test Forums.</P> <P>Someone logging in and seeing what the new recast time is on their favorite spell so they can go to the forums and complain about a nerf wont help anyone, but unfortunately you'd probably get more of those than actual testers.</P>

[Heiro]

<P>Enough people on test did run the splitpaw instance, and continue to do so.</P> <P> </P> <P>Personally,  I have ran the upper tunnels at least 8 times ( on all 3 lvls) and havent died to a trapped chest yet.</P> <P>Same with Harclave, Numerous runs on each level of difficulty,  never died to a chest... did die to the fall though (stupid cat jumping on the desk while jumping off the plank).</P> <P> </P> <P>Solo arena,  defeated more times than any sane person should... </P> <P>Hideout, same .. numerous runs, no chest deaths....</P> <P> </P> <P>There are numerous low, mid, high level people on test  who do test things quite frequently, and repeatedly.  The majority of them are permanent residents who did the 1-50 grind numerous times. ( personally I know of one person with 3 lvl 50 chars, all done on test, and 2 of them in less time than it has taken me to grind one guy to 48.)</P> <P> </P> <P>So while we dont have 100+ lvl 50s on the server,  we do have a goodly number of higher levels, and more people are approaching each day.  Things are getting tested,  bugs are being reported, DEVs are being talked to and things are being communicated back and forth.</P> <P>People who want to truly help, will not have an issue with either a character MOVE  or just starting up some new characters, as the grind for someone who is familiar with the ins and outs is much less on TEST because of the knowledge already gained, and the bonus exp.   IMO  Whining for a copy so you get a chance to TEST what affects you, isnt going to help the population in general.  IF someone  truly wants to help, they  would be by now.. and the lvl grind would not even be a factor.</P> <P>  <P>***WHACK WHACK WHACK ... take that you dead horse***</P><p>Message Edited by Heiro on <span class=date_text>07-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:50 PM</span>

[Kreegan]

I think if SOE offered a one free MOVE to Test Server that would be a good compromise.  Not a copy, but a move.  Then those who truly want to test and not have to regrind would be appeased, and those who just want to copy onto test to play around will still be kept off.

[RedFeather]

Personally I would have taken the route of frequent Test Server wipes, and reimplementing /testbuffs. The /testbuffs would be given level caps dependent on exactly what content needed to be tested at the time. After all this is about effectively testing new content as diversly as possible (ei: with every class/subclass), not having to focus on developing a single character. I have no idea why this isn't being done. <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> <div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kreegan wrote:<BR>I think if SOE offered a one free MOVE to Test Server that would be a good compromise.  Not a copy, but a move.  Then those who truly want to test and not have to regrind would be appeased, and those who just want to copy onto test to play around will still be kept off.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree.  The last /movelog brought a lot of Test's best-known and most dedicated players over.  I think they should offer one every month or every two months or something.

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RedFeather1975 wrote:<BR>Personally I would have taken the route of frequent Test Server wipes, and reimplementing /testbuffs. The /testbuffs would be given level caps dependent on exactly what content needed to be tested at the time.<BR><BR>After all this is about effectively testing new content as diversly as possible (ei: with every class/subclass), not having to focus on developing a single character.<BR><BR>I have no idea why this isn't being done. <SPAN>:smileyindifferent:</SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This gets said a lot, but here goes one more time:</P> <P>The thing about testing is that it's not just the new content that needs reveiwing.  Certain patches have broken the mail, recipes, totally unrelated skills, griffons, and what-have-you.  If you don't have people running all over the world acting like people, the new bugs in old content dont' get picked up, and then the people on live servers who ARE running all over the world acting like people get all complainy when their old stuff breaks.</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<DIV>I have said this alot and ill make it brief. two test servers. One in it's current state and the 2nd where you have GM level of testing acess like make your character any level, any class, and gear. 2nd server would only havea  hand full of zones one for each tier. This 2nd server would be strictly for combat/item testing. No community on 2nd test server. Nothing to gain from playing 2nd test server other than to find bugs or test out skills/ca/spells before they go live. This would have absolutly no affect on any server besides it'self. GTG raid time in DFC lol back later to explain better!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[RedFeather]

<div></div><i>This gets said a lot, but here goes one more time:</i> <p><i>The thing about testing is that it's not just the new content that needs reveiwing.  Certain patches have broken the mail, recipes, totally unrelated skills, griffons, and what-have-you.  If you don't have people running all over the world acting like people, the new bugs in old content dont' get picked up, and then the people on live servers who ARE running all over the world acting like people get all complainy when their old stuff breaks. </i></p> <p>I can't argue with that Etoile. But a comprimise would need to be established. A test server, as well as a pre-live server. One would allow persistent character advancement on a concentric server (as test to live content does need to be approached your way). The other would allow /testbuffing and server wipes, for it would be the hardcore testing phase and would only be done effectively if there was nothing to interefere with it. I see persistent character advancement on a test server as detracting from the true focus required to accurately test <b>specific content issues</b>. </p> <p> Perhaps SOE has already gone this route, and we simply don't have access to this other testing phase. If that's the case, then I shut my trap now. YUP!  <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> </p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by RedFeather1975 on <span class=date_text>07-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 PM</span>

[Picknose]

<P>A MOVE (take character delete it on live put on test) of a character to test server would not bother me so much.  A COPY does bother me.  A COPY has no root to the server.  If a copy gets tired of downtime he simply returns to his / her server and is done with it.  A COPY can be rude, and be a griefer and cause problems for people trying to test with no worries, he can always return to his / her original server with no worry about how thay re perseecved.  I am not saying all copies would be this way, but having been on test servers (WOW, DAOC) where characters are copied if have seen how a very few can ruin the experience for the manay.  When you are MOVED you are stuck, since there are no character moves off of test you are stuck, much like the exchange servers (blegh).  How you play and are perceived by others will determine how well you fit in, and if you do not then tuff it out and keep going.  </P> <P> </P> <P>That said, come to test, make a new character.  We have a slightly increased exp bonus and it would take an experienced player just a few short weeks to be at the top of the heap again.  Once there you will have much the same feelings as those of us who have in fact worked up and discovered numerous bugs and reported them on nearly a daily basis.  That feeling is ownership of the test process.  You will never have that as a copied character since you have nothing to keep you on the server when a patch is put out that is so horrible you can die a dosen times before you can even log off the game, or loose all your gear to a bug, or any number of other things that send most people running from the server.  Yet we who stick it out are a friendly group of rejects who plod along and take favor among those of us who do the same.</P> <P> </P> <P>BB</P> <P> </P>

[Naughtesn]

<P>Blah blah - let us copy.   I'm really tired of the test "community" fighting this idea...it wouldn't be the end of the world...the sky will not fall...if the Chicken Littles of the world would just realize that what is in place IS... NOT ....WORKING, then maybe,  just maybe the process can be improved.</P> <P>Anyone can be a griefer, anyone can play recklessly, you want more people to test & feedback on all levels - let ppl copy.  Otherwise, we are stuck with this poor excuse for a testing system.  As long as there is a tiny population on test, that is.</P> <P>But I'm starting to lose interest in lobbying for copying because clearly the DEVs are happy with the level of quality of patches hitting live - as if they are almost resigned to the fact that there will be issues affecting gameplay negatively with every update.  I am certain that a lot of bugs that make it to live are reported, but since so few actually post bugs on the forums, we really have no idea.  More ppl testing, even for short periods (like the guilds that are copied over - said copied guilds haven't ruined the server community, have they, testies?), along with public posting of issues might shame the DEVs on holding back updates until they are *more* ready.  But as long as Test remains a clique-y, closed environment - nothing will change.</P> <P>And to those that say roll up a toon on test...I have 2 lev 50 "live" characters, I have no interest in running another up at this time (which doesn't translate to me not being "dedicated" enough to test - it simply means I have done the grind and don't want to again).  What *would* be nice is if there were a mechanism to allow me to take the time invested in these toons and put them to good use.</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Read this from start to finish, dont turn away at the first line. This is not a hate reply to Test.community, but a helpfull alternative Testserver2.</P> <P>This is crap. I know you guys in test want your "community" to say in-tact but why in the name of all things good would you come by and one-star shoot my post that has an ALTERNATIVE test server idea for TESTING MECANICS........ not a community test server like it currently is, but a 2nd test server to physically beable to test anything and everyhitng in the game. Tell me one level 50 raid encaonter or one person that has a ton of fabled gear or one person on thest that is int a level 30 guild and has the spirit hourse / magic carpit... these things cant be tested in the current test with out MONTHS of investment of time. On my perposed test server2, these would be avalible to everone, as would every item, class, level, quality of spell in the game, anything you could ever want to test should be allowed.</P> <P>ABSOLUTLY NOTHING FROM THIS TEST SERVER2 WOULD NEGATIVLY OR POSSITIVLY AFFECT ANY OTHER SERVER INCLUDING TEST1...</P> <P>I cant stress that enough... if i here that they are gona fix my Conjuror's fire pet, i dont think i should have to level a conjuror up on the test server to just TEST this new ability to amke sure its working so i can provide and feedback on this skill. This is one of the many examples why a actual test server would be needed. If you dont want your community disturbed by "haters and grievers", but this would help your testserver1 greatly then, as these "vill disgusting people that will cause your server to burn and die" will flock to this test2 to just make a uber character and goof around... but there are peoplelike myself who dont want to do community test but rather character and itemization testing, and they deserve a test server and have every right to one as you do. If you cant respect the wishes of others, then thats your problem and not mine.</P> <P>And in no way am i saying you do a poor job, far from it. You guys catch SO many common bugs that only a community server could catch, but there are also just as many class issues that make it though your net. That is where test2 comes in. Players can copy their characters from live to test2 in order to see how upcoming changes will affect their character, or to test how much effect a skill upgrade (like going form adept3 to master1) truely is, to make a sound purchase on upgrades.  So many people would not pay 3pp+ for masters if they new how truely little this one master might be. Sometimes it's within 10 damage or heal of the adept 3, or sometimes it doesnt upgrade it at all! These kind of choices can be better made if you could "try before you buy" on test2.</P> <P>There is no reasion that a level 50 character on live shuld have to reroll on test to simpley test their level 50 spell. test2 would fix this problem with out harming you or your close nit friends. Maby they should call the current test server "Test.commnity" and new test "Test.mecanics"</P> <P>I know there are going to be people that say "that kind of testing is what devs have access to, just go be a dev and get over it." TBH I WANT to be a developer... it's jsut that currently my age pervents that, im only 16. Test2 would give people like me a a way to truely TEST specific information that we need.</P> <P>It all boils down to this:</P> <P>Test.Commuit- there to find the every day bugs that occur when playing the game in a normal communit setting.</P> <P>Test.Mechanics- there to get specific feedback on skills/items and other game mechanics, it would have no community, everytime you log in your character has a randomly generated name (or the name of your copied characters) and is a level 1 generic everytime you log onto test.mec.Nothing is concrete. No money, as al items are avalible, and the only reasion to leave loot drops in is to make sure random_boss mob doesnt drop crapy level 10 styuff or somethign odd like that. This server would have nothing to gain but the aid of players finding broken or bad skills and replying with possible fixes.</P> <P>If YOU personaly dont want to partake in Test.Mec, simply dont, it has no affect on you. If someone on Steamfont kills some raid mob, does test feel anything from this? Same for test.community and test.mechanic. Please dont knock this idea untill you give it some serious thought.</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Fire&ice]

<DIV>Like I have said before and will say again...If you want to play on Test, then come join us crazies over here and have some fun! If not then don't /shrug. I left a lvl 45 character on live to make a character on Test (I currently have 3 now in various lvls). My main character on Test has steadily climbed and I have had a blast getting her up to where she is now. It is your choice and everyone should do what makes them happy. If you aren't happy making a new character then don't, but bringing up this discussion over and over and over again isn't going to help...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poor, poor, poor horsey :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Daffid011]

Eyes_of__truth, why are you preaching to the test server and blaming us for one starring your post?   It really isn't fair to ask people to be open minded to your idea when you are not open minded in return by casting accusations. <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Well, if you care to take note, anything on this particular post that has the word "copy" or the phrase "second test server" gets an instant 1 star from you people and im trying to not sound accusing here but thats just how i observed it. </P> <P>Please just answer one question, how am i going to test the changes to my conjuror who is level 28 live if i dont completely move him to test or completely reroll him on test?? i realy wana know, i allready have a community test toon, and he's ok for testing community stuff, but what if i have a specific area that im concerned in <fire pets for example> that i simply whant to log in, copy character and see how different (good or bad) and what possible problems and bugs he might have?</P> <P>I have no wish to reinvest days of my time to re-level a character to simply test one aspect of said character.</P> <P>To me im the one that feels insulted that you probley didnt even give my possitive idea any real thougt and (im not saysing you all did this) but one stared it because it's not what you personaly want to do.</P> <P>If you could find any reasion that a second and seprit test server would be detrmental to any and i mean ANY server please inform me i honestly and truely wana know so we could figure out how to make it work...</P> <P>Im not a bad guy people and im sorry if i came out that way, it's just frustraiting. I wana test one thing, yet to test that one thing, everyone is screaming "well just mkae a test toon and get over it" but i cant make my kind of test toon. There are alot of ways to test, and my mecanical way it seems is fround upon for some reasion unbeknownst to me. </P> <P>This is not ment for humor, im truely serious and would love some answers, i realy and honestly just plain and simple want to know...</P> <P>Why would you not want another test server for testing specific things vs your test server that actually is a functioning community server? It's just another option that has no effect upon any other server (that i can see atleast, if you find one please inform me)</P> <P>Think of this as a servay. PLease post reponses as to why you do or do not want a second test.mechanic server.</P> <P>Toodles!</P> <p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:33 AM</span>

[Fire&ice]

<DIV>The reason, in the eyes of a corporation, I would think is cost...Why have a basically unused server opperational?...it cost more to run it than it would be worth to them. But that is my way of thinking /shrug...it may or may not be SoE's thought process.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either way SoE has already said they won't be doing an open Copy system for test. If they feel they want to put money into a seperate server then that is up to them. Like I pointed out above I have a feeling it will cost alot in both money and resources to run another "Test" server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug just my 2cp :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[PhourZwanZig]

Ive been on test since the beginning of test..  And I myself maybe bug something 1-3 times a week.. I dont see them that often..(well lately) but really my question is what would an Alt Test server do.. there are a few things that arent being taken into account..  How would you let such chaos exist 1. No need to buy stuff 2. Choosing your own lvl 3. Random Naming 4. etc. alot of the ideas youve listed that this server can have would need a dif code write up to begin w/.. an how would that be a close enuf copy to the Live world to even acomplish anything..  IMOH I feel a server like this will only have SOE seaching for bugs that dont exist in the Test and Live servers cuz their caus is due to the coding to make that server exist in the way it does.. stuff like this is just stupid.. If an alter was born it'd have to have the same rules as to the live servers.. and be basiclly a copy of the live server to be its truest.. but not "I wanna play a lvl 50 2day.."    /test_lvl_50 MUHAHAHA Im uber now.. just *shakes-head* not right.. Phour. <div></div>

[Daffid011]

<span><span></span>Maybe it is not your idea, but the manner in which you present it.  Cheers, </span><div></div>

[Na]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<div></div> <p>Well, if you care to take note, anything on this particular post that has the word "copy" or the phrase "second test server" gets an instant 1 star from you people and im trying to not sound accusing here but thats just how i observed it. </p> <hr></blockquote>You're assuming that it's someone in the Test community that's one starring you.  That's not necessarily an accurate assumption.</span><div></div>

[Edowen]

Just wondering... Eyes_of_Truth, did you create a toon named HolyPowa on Test?  A toon with that name and sounding a lot like what you are saying here was active during the Splitpaw testing period.  I have not seen the toon since.  This person had a lot of other ideas, and talked about them in the /Test channel.  Edowen <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

you people... im sorry.. i try so hard...to explain my ideas calmly and completely... this server would not be for enjoyment purposes of any kind form or fashion!!! if someone wants to /test_level_50 and feel *uber* let them... they gain nothing nor do the loose anything. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would be Chaos IF it was a community server, i completely aggre. BUT IT IS NOT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would be a mechanics testing server, than average_Joe can go and make sure all the upgrades in spells work. You wana know what class you might like at 50?? Try them out. See what is fun. See what you like.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This server would not take anyting into consideration of restraintes. Everyone could test what ever they whimed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"hmm i wonder if the flying carpit is realy worht 60pp?" well try it out and make a desison. As it stands, ther eis no way on earth that a person on test>community can test that with out a good 8 moths worth of investment in raiding a guidls level and earing 60pp. This is what im tlaking about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This may sound a bit harsh, but who are you people to deny me the right to test my characters in a closed enviornment that wont affect anyone elses game play?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thans all i want. I dont want to be "uber".... i dont want to make this second test server as a goof off server, i want it to test speific character/class/gear issues. The only way you can do this now is taking moths of time in devoloping a test character and by then you wont need to test that spell or what ever because it's suddenly live with out ANY of your input on the change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I.............WANT................TO............TE ST..........MY...........LIVE............CHARCTER. ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why is that considered hanous? Im sorry if i seem edgey, but the test population in general seems very defensive and paranoid. Thats just a generization and im most assuradly NOT lashing out against you people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im sorry and i appoligise for anythign i have said to you. I truely am sorry :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the side of the extra cost for a second server, they have had this game out for 9 moths or so now. They are completely changing the combat system. They need SOMTHING for very concerned players like my self to let us try out these changes before they are permanently on live and we're stuck with them. Im sure the devs doing this revamp and spell changing have done an excellent job, but i dont want to log on my conjuror, summon my Fire pet, and get a Orc or bat or some ting wierd and buggy. Thats why i want to test these things in a uncontroled enviornment seprit from the rest of the game. A new Server to test these on is not too much to ask i dont think. If they want to continue to get our revenue, they need to keep players happy(or in my case contient) and informed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am so very sorry if i have upset you or insulted you, and i realize that the person who continualy 1 stated me on that other post may not have been in test, but from a analitical conclusion, any post that was anti-copy or anti-second server got 4 stars or more, and any post that was for an alternative idea or copy or second server gets instant 1 or 2 stars. Im sticking to that because thats the hard evidence i gathered. If you can prove me wrong, please do so. Not gona ever insult you again, but please, explain to me why, why having a uncontroled enviornment (instanced if you want to be alone) where players can test their new skills, or gear they are thinking about purchasing. I for one want to make sure that that master debuf or nuke or heal is a definate upgrade form adept3 by a noticable amount or im not paying 3pp+ for it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is what this second server would be for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(please no cheep one-liner remarks, if your gona rebuttle my reply or post, please make it a well thought out, detailed reply.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>YEA hi m8 :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>I finaly desided Test.Community is not for me :smileysad:</P> <P>No liked my ideas there, and now i just type on boreds with them...</P> <P>Sad part is i realy do think they are good ideas for the games health...</P> <P>Bad part is noone else can see my side, or if they do, they think it's flawed or "well that would never get implemented"</P> <P>Realy pesemistic if u ask me lol.</P> <P>but yea, im Holypowa, or was. I havent deleated him, but i have given up more or less on trying to get my views across to the devs in test :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>I talked with a dev that was doing the active testing on SP, and she said my ideas sounded great and to just post them on the boreds cus they havea  better change of getting read by a dev. 3 weeks later i think it has been and not a single look at my ideas... and anyone that bothered to post about them were normaly (not allways) craopy one-liner posts like "gawd, your so retarhded, berzerkerz are allwayz gona out damage enchanters and bards, because we chose berzerker a 20 and not Guaridans, i never signed up to tank"</P> <P>then i usualy go into detail about how all fighters are tanks, and if you read the NPc's words on IOR you well relize you signed up to defend at level 3. then that brings more flames at me lol</P> <P>So basicaly, i have no way what so ever of getting my ideas herd tot he right ears (or eyes in this instance)</P> <P>glad to catch up with you again, your one of the few people that actualy listend and cared :smileywink:</P> <P>FYI Eyesoftruth is my level 28 conjuror, was my main until 1 month into the game (i stated when it first came out) i realized how underpowered they are and have been waiting for the "big fix" for 7 or 8 months now. People have no idea how hard that is. Drives me crazy. I play almsot every range of classes:</P> <P>38 warlock</P> <P>29 warden</P> <P>23 ranger</P> <P>23 monk</P> <P>17 enchanter</P> <P>I sometimes play my firends account to try his characters,</P> <P>34 paladin</P> <P>23 fury</P> <P>and 24 tempalr</P> <P>I often group with a 26 wizard who has a 33 swashbuckler, and my other RL friend has a 24 berserker (who unlike most likes to tank)</P> <P>so with exception of a few FP based sub-classes, i have regualy been exposed to every class in the game. I also had a bard at one time but made room for my enchanter.</P> <P>P.S. from my personal playing experiance, the Paladin and Warlock are perfectly where they should be as far a their core roles are concerned. Granted the warlocks AOE root that cant brake needs to be towned down in power, other than that i dont feel lie im doing too much damge for a mage class, but i aggree that other mages and scouts definately need a noticable boost above fighters, and fighters need to beable to stack their taning just like healers can stack their healing and mage/scout can sack their DPS. Allowing tanks to divide incoming damage amongst themselves allows them to lower heaving single hit damage (allows brawler to be more efecitve)</P> <P>Yea the ideas i went over with you were the :</P> <P>Training Exercize quests for gaining improved quality of your skills</P> <P>more interactive raids that require multiple tanks or tanking types and healing types and varried damage done my mages and scouts to be effective at diffeent points in a big fight.</P> <P>balanceing mages/scout to where they do same damage but one is physical and one is spell, requiring them to coordingate when to go full damage and when to perofrma secondairy role.</P> <P>balancing with in the archetypenot crossing over, aka all mages and scouts haveing a higher personal DPS than any fighter or priest.</P> <P>Probly more that i cant remember, but thats the gist of it, probly went over Summoner balancing perhaps.</P> <P>Toodles!</P><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:53 AM</span>

[Na]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:  <div>This may sound a bit harsh, but who are you people to deny me the right to test my characters in a closed enviornment that wont affect anyone elses game play?</div><font color="#ff0000">I guarantee you that not one single player on the test server is keeping you from doing that.  You know who is doing that? SOE.  Why are they doing that? Because they obviously believe that the quality of the feedback they would get from a server like you suggest wouldn't be as beneficial as the feedback they're currently getting with the existing test server.  Why wouldn't it be? Say you log onto this server to test how an upcoming spell change will affect...say a damage shield spell.  What would you do first? Would you /testbuff yourself to 50 and examine the spell? Cast it on yourself and wade into mobs to see how much damage it does?  That's what most people would do. They would see how it affects them, and log out.  That's not really testing the change though is it?  First, you really need to examine the spell at several different level ranges to make sure it scales and functions correctly all the way to the end. Just because it works correctly at level 50 doesn't mean it's scaled correctly at level 28.  With a test community, scaling problems are more likely to be found because there is an existing level range of players (Note - I haven't been playing on test enough to notice if there are any level 50 characters yet or not) Another problem is there would be limited player interaction.  Spells need to be looked at not only on their own, but working in conjunction with other spells, combat arts and equipment.  Looking at the damage shield spell from above, it may be balanced and work fine on its own, but combined with a Inquisitor Heal per hit spell, allows for a short duration of near-invulnerability because the damage from the damage shield was accidently flagged as counting towards triggering the heal spell.</font>  <font color="#ff0000">So the player on your server would send in feedback that the spell is working just great and the player on test would be sending in feedback that the spell is broken. Conflicting feedback just adds developer time that could be best used elsewhere.</font> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>I am so very sorry if i have upset you or insulted you, and i realize that the person who continualy 1 stated me on that other post may not have been in test, but from a analitical conclusion, any post that was anti-copy or anti-second server got 4 stars or more, and any post that was for an alternative idea or copy or second server gets instant 1 or 2 stars. Im sticking to that because thats the hard evidence i gathered. If you can prove me wrong, please do so. <font color="#ff0000">There is no hard evidence here. Those stars could have come from players on live servers who happen to agree that a 2nd server or a copy to test isn't necessary.  They could be of the mindset that SOE has already stated that there will be no copy so all these posts are just beating a dead horse. Also, presentation is important. I've given people 5 stars and totally disagreed with what they had to say, but they presented their arguement clearly and without whining or flaming/name calling.  Without being able to see who gives you what rating you will never know why those posts are getting 1 star.</font>  I for one want to make sure that that master debuf or nuke or heal is a definate upgrade form adept3 by a noticable amount or im not paying 3pp+ for it. </div> <div> <font color="#ff0000">That's what the existing communities are for. Whether its your server board, /ooc, or feedback from the test server, those communities will be more than happy (I hope) to give you the information that you're looking for.</font> </div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<DIV>Eyes_of_Truth,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think what people are trying to explain is that that second kind of server won't get the proper testing done, because none of the other variables will mimic either the Test or Live environments.  It's not about being insta-fifty to look at how the zone is on Test2 vs Your Live Server, it's about all that code and randomness interfering with the mechanics of the patch you want to test.  In other words, it may work perfectly in Test2 and still crash a half-dozen live servers on installation because Test2, as described, wouldn't be a working environment.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if the purpose of such a server were to "try what you like," well, it would be utter chaos, astoundingly little real or accurate testing would get done, and essentially from SOE's point of view the whole enterprise would be a waste of time and money.  Just because they should have plenty by now doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy flushing it down the toilet (regardless of what the player base thinks of some of their choices to date).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And by the by, this whole pithy starring business is about averages anyway.  It only takes one person to make something look 5-starred or 1-starred... you shouldn't let it get to you too much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers.</DIV>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote: <div> </div> <div>"hmm i wonder if the flying carpit is realy worht 60pp?" well try it out and make a desison. As it stands, ther eis no way on earth that a person on test>community can test that with out a good 8 moths worth of investment in raiding a guidls level and earing 60pp. This is what im tlaking about.</div> <div> </div> <div>This may sound a bit harsh, but who are you people to deny me the right to test my characters in a closed enviornment that wont affect anyone elses game play?</div> <div> </div> <div>I.............WANT................TO............TE ST..........MY...........LIVE............CHARCTER. ....</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>1) Test has enough platinum, but may lack the guild level.  However I doubt that test is the only server in this state.  2) Buying a flying carpet to "see if it is worth it" is NOT testing.  You constantly confuse "previewing" with testing and is why I don't agree with your concept.  A lot of people asking for copies have this in mind, but whatever. 3) Don't guise your idea as some part of testing the game when you only really want to preview changes to your character.  There isn't anything wrong with it, but it is not an integral part of a testing environment.  Call it what it is at least. 4) I don't know what you mean by "right" to test your character.   Do you really think you are entitled to a special server? Go read this thread which is pretty much the same idea as you and notice the difference between yours and their idea and the way it is presented..  http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=20315   Cheers,</span><div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>No, previeing is seeing somethign as it will be indefinatly, testing is the stage where you look at something before it hits the general public. And yes, i want a way to "preview" stuff so i know if it's worth investing part of my life into achieving it. </P> <P>I dont wana play a character for 49 levels only to find that at level 50 it doesnt have anyworth, or is not quite as enjoyable as i hoped.</P> <P>Ok... fine...i give in.</P> <P>I will stand for not being allowed to "prieview" or "test" the new combat changes, but if i find one and i mean one bug in the conjurors spells (like saying they do something and not doing it, im gona be very disapooned in you all :smileysad:</P> <P>If you honestly can ensure me that no wierd buggs or errors will happen to ANY conjuror spell and ANY level, or any given class's skills, THEN i guess you guys truely are doing a good testing and i congragalate you on a job well done! :smileyvery-happy: <buggy as in not working proporly, not whining about skills damage and such></P> <P>BUT if i hear of one buggy skill or spell i will have lost all faith in SOE and the test server's worth. Im not being dramatic, i just want results. If i dont get to do it, you conjuror's on the test server better dang well get to level 50 and make sure every spell is in pristine working order by live.:smileywink:</P> <P>Thats what I would do, check every single spell with this new system. If there is currently no level 50 conjuror in test, then you cant do this.</P> <P>I dont care if you consider it previewing, i would still look for buggs, and thats testing.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>**warning, random mediforicle example**</FONT></P> <P>If someone came out with a new drug <combat revamp uber fix> to cure cancer, and you had cancer <bad character defect in this case>, wouldn't you atleast wana be in the trial stages rather than wait for it to hit market? You wouldnt says to that person "Oh your just trying to get cured ahead of everyone else arnt you? So selfish"</P> <P>Well, what if that person felt bad for other people with cancer(other people with class errors that seem more dire) far worse than his, and desided to let someone else take his palce, only to find that with his current bloodtype, the cancer comes back even stronger, but it's too late, over 1000's of people with his bloodtype are now worse off than before, and all because this person wasnt one of the participents that would have shown the signs of this reoccouring part of the cancer drug.</P> <P>Granted cancer and broken class spells are in completely different leauges of importance, it still fits. My character's cancerous defects in his skills and spells we told to get a fix 2-3 months into the game, but they never mattierialized, he has been shelved for 7 months now. Im about ready to seem some results here. </P> <P>Change the word cancer with crittical class flaw, and change the words blood-type to a specific class, and you mgiht see what im getting at.</P> <P>While some would have chosen to play that time frame and make it to level 50 conjuror, saying the whole while that conjuror isnt broken, in denile, i dont think like that. The conjuror class is so terribly out of wack right now that i simply cant have fun, and i wouldnt have enjoyed that slow painfull clime to 50. The Fire and Air pets look so cool but are currently worthless, and i realy realy REALY wana make sure they get them done right!</P> <P>Play a conjuror if you dont believe me. It's terrible. 20-28 has been so boring and broken, no nuke, no "good" DOT to make up for loss of a nuke, no incredable debuff, no summoned mini attakc pets like our sister class the necromacer (that is the spell at this level that completely makes the differance in conjuror and necro damage till far later on like level 38 when we finaly get our swarm pets), and our best spell is a AOE dot that does 70 a tic and stiffles, but if ever in a enchanter group that occasionaly needs CC, it only gets in the way, and our other best spell, a 10 sec stun witha  fast cast, will soon cap out and be replaced by the "upgrade" frozen of time that has a 4 second castng time for 8 second stun, terrible.</P> <P>With all these problems specificaly targeted at the class i was hoping to play to 50, why should i not get any imput on the combat revamp without investing time into a  second character on test that i wont play offten. Do you honestly want people to roll up characters and just log on every so offten test new skill/ca/spell changes? Wouldnt that provide your close nit testing community with all the clutter/grievers you dont want? </P> <P>It may just be me (and form your stand points you seem to be putting it that way) but what is wrong with foreknowing what changes upon your characters will have?</P> <P> </P> <P>And as to prieviewing, what do you have against it? Not like making alevel 50 uber guy on this temporary server affects anyone...and hell.if some immature wants to go around as their conception of "uber" let them. They arent hurting anyone in this proposed skill/item testing server. </P> <P>This also brings me to the point that has been brought up lately about epic mob's AOE resists. They are screwed up or atleast thats what i have herd in game and read lately. If more testers where higher level that wouldnt be a problem, but if we had test mec server, a character could put resists up to goddly levels, and if they skill got ice commet'ed for 3000+, then hey! /bug</P> <P>Plenty of bugs like this, small things that cause game altering problems for a certain specific group of people, could be cought in this new test server where as they arnt getting caught in current test... and this has happend MULTIPLE times, though it's not in anyway your faullts, it;s just bound to happen with that set up for a test server.</P> <P>Well, i value your opions none the less, so please keep replying.</P> <P>Oh btw, by "right" i mean you have chosen how you wish to test, but why do i not get to systematicaly test my character like i would like to? Im an analytical person. I want hard data that i can work with and a near-GM level of testing. Your way is with community and friend you enjoy playing with, two completely different but both successfull ways of testing. I plan on becomeing a developer later on in my life, but as i said, im only 16, and have no access to such tec. I enjoy balancing nubers and classes...im a nerd, you can just say that, i know it's true, and i dont care, i love it:smileywink:</P> <P>Toodles!</P><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:38 PM</span>

[Na]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<p>I will stand for not being allowed to "prieview" or "test" the new combat changes, but if i find one and i mean one bug in the conjurors spells (like saying they do something and not doing it, im gona be very disapooned in you all :smileysad:</p><p>If you honestly can ensure me that no wierd buggs or errors will happen to ANY conjuror spell and ANY level, or any given class's skills, THEN i guess you guys truely are doing a good testing and i congragalate you on a job well done! :smileyvery-happy: </p><p>BUT if i hear of one buggy skill or spell i will have lost all faith in SOE and the test server's worth. Im not being dramatic, i just want results.</p><p>Plenty of bugs like this, small things that cause game altering problems for a certain specific group of people, could be cought in this new test server where as they arnt getting caught in current test... and this has happend MULTIPLE times, though it's not in anyway your faullts, it;s just bound to happen with that set up for a test server.</p><hr></blockquote>I've said this several times before and it bares repeating since so many people keep bringing it up. Unless you play on test, unless you read the test server only board (not this public test forum), unless you talk to players who play on test full time, you have NO </span><span>(None, zilch, zip, nada, nicht, zero)</span><span> idea what bugs the test server community have and have not reported to the devs.  Just because a bug makes it to the live servers does NOT mean that it was not reported by one, if not several people. All it means is that the DEVS decided that it wasn't a priority to fix before patching the data to live.This doesn't mean that the test server community isn't doing their job, it doesn't mean that they need an influx of copied characters to be transfered there in order to help them out. Have they missed bugs? Most certainly, I doubt any player on test could say that they've caught every bug that has been introduced. But I'm sure there were bugs that have been on live for months that either A) have only been caught recently or B) haven't been caught at all. And, as the devs have stated several times, copying the data to the live servers can introduce bugs that were never on the test server. Which means that there was no way for them to be caught before they appeared on the live servers.</span><div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazz04355 wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR><BR> <P>I will stand for not being allowed to "prieview" or "test" the new combat changes, but if i find one and i mean one bug in the conjurors spells (like saying they do something and not doing it, im gona be very disapooned in you all :smileysad:</P> <P>If you honestly can ensure me that no wierd buggs or errors will happen to ANY conjuror spell and ANY level, or any given class's skills, THEN i guess you guys truely are doing a good testing and i congragalate you on a job well done! :smileyvery-happy: </P> <P>BUT if i hear of one buggy skill or spell i will have lost all faith in SOE and the test server's worth. Im not being dramatic, i just want results.<BR></P> <P>Plenty of bugs like this, small things that cause game altering problems for a certain specific group of people, could be cought in this new test server where as they arnt getting caught in current test... and this has happend MULTIPLE times, though it's not in anyway your faullts, it;s just bound to happen with that set up for a test server.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I've said this several times before and it bares repeating since so many people keep bringing it up. Unless you play on test, unless you read the test server only board (not this public test forum), unless you talk to players who play on test full time, you have NO </SPAN><SPAN>(None, zilch, zip, nada, nicht, zero)</SPAN><SPAN> idea what bugs the test server community have and have not reported to the devs.  Just because a bug makes it to the live servers does NOT mean that it was not reported by one, if not several people. All it means is that the DEVS decided that it wasn't a priority to fix before patching the data to live.<BR><BR>This doesn't mean that the test server community isn't doing their job, it doesn't mean that they need an influx of copied characters to be transfered there in order to help them out. Have they missed bugs? Most certainly, I doubt any player on test could say that they've caught every bug that has been introduced. But I'm sure there were bugs that have been on live for months that either A) have only been caught recently or B) haven't been caught at all. And, as the devs have stated several times, copying the data to the live servers can introduce bugs that were never on the test server. Which means that there was no way for them to be caught before they appeared on the live servers.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No no, i know you guys do the best jobyou can and i dont expect every genral bug to be caught, but with the time they are taking with this combat revamp, i expect some good quality, and if every spell is not properly tested by the testing community (and im sorry, it's not physicaly possible as you dont have a level 50 character in each sub-class), then i feel that this is in part a faultof the devs.</P> <P>Implementing a temporary blue frog stage of testing, by simply having a complete test server save prieviously to it, then for say 3 days, allow blue-frogging as it has been dubed in SWG, and test each tier with each subclass for about 4 hours with as many people as possible, allow anyone willing to participate, and have the devs out like in the Splitpaw testing (i realy realy realy was glad to be a part of that, it was fun and it felt like we did get some good stuff accomplished, i realy hope devs do more active testing like that)</P> <P>Only for 3 days. Then the Reboot from the saved test server data, and any blue-frog created/altered characters are POOF gone! It's back to the server you know and love! ...Just with a 3 day time of unexplained mass unconciousness is all :smileywink:</P> <P>Would that sound like a reasionable, developer controlled testing enviornment that you would find agreeable to test this new combat revamp? </P> <P>I know they said they would be "testing this shortly" as i recall from a recient post by MG (i think) and i hope they handle it like that, allow for a brief period for people to scale in class an level by the dev's rules (testing each tier, 2 tiers a day, 4 hours each. Day 1 is tier 1 and 2, day 2 is tier 3 and 4, and day 3 is tier 5 (and possibly tier 6 if they want to test the next expansion's spells at this time, which i think that they were created along with the rest of the combat revamp to save resources probly)</P> <P>If you dont like this idea as well, please still post a good rebuttle, so far i like your aurguments, they are well thought out and worthy of merrit like any good debater.</P> <P>Kudos</P>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No no, i know you guys do the best jobyou can and i dont expect every genral bug to be caught, but with the time they are taking with this combat revamp, i expect some good quality, and if every spell is not properly tested by the testing community (and im sorry, it's not physicaly possible as you dont have a level 50 character in each sub-class), then i feel that this is in part a faultof the devs.</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thinking about all previous patches to date (including parts 1-3 of combat changes, when we had them on Test), and about the descriptions we've been given so far, I actually think that the level 50 toons won't be the real problem.  (And don't forget that the guilds that were copied for high-end raid testing in the past are, technically, still there.  Quantity and variety of level 50 toons is not a problem.)  I rather think the ones who will have the most trouble in the changes will be in the 20-40 range -- in other words, the vast bulk of players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way, for what it's worth, it's hard to count because they're never all on at once but I'm positive we've got over 20 native level 50 characters, and there are another dozen in the 44+ range.  By Live standards that's nothing, sure, but for dedicated test-only players I think that's pretty good.</DIV>

[Na]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Nazz04355 wrote: <div></div><span> <blockquote> <hr> Eyes_of_Truth wrote: <p>I will stand for not being allowed to "prieview" or "test" the new combat changes, but if i find one and i mean one bug in the conjurors spells (like saying they do something and not doing it, im gona be very disapooned in you all :smileysad:</p> <p>If you honestly can ensure me that no wierd buggs or errors will happen to ANY conjuror spell and ANY level, or any given class's skills, THEN i guess you guys truely are doing a good testing and i congragalate you on a job well done! :smileyvery-happy: </p> <p>BUT if i hear of one buggy skill or spell i will have lost all faith in SOE and the test server's worth. Im not being dramatic, i just want results.</p> <p>Plenty of bugs like this, small things that cause game altering problems for a certain specific group of people, could be cought in this new test server where as they arnt getting caught in current test... and this has happend MULTIPLE times, though it's not in anyway your faullts, it;s just bound to happen with that set up for a test server.</p> <hr> </blockquote>I've said this several times before and it bares repeating since so many people keep bringing it up. Unless you play on test, unless you read the test server only board (not this public test forum), unless you talk to players who play on test full time, you have NO </span><span>(None, zilch, zip, nada, nicht, zero)</span><span> idea what bugs the test server community have and have not reported to the devs.  Just because a bug makes it to the live servers does NOT mean that it was not reported by one, if not several people. All it means is that the DEVS decided that it wasn't a priority to fix before patching the data to live.This doesn't mean that the test server community isn't doing their job, it doesn't mean that they need an influx of copied characters to be transfered there in order to help them out. Have they missed bugs? Most certainly, I doubt any player on test could say that they've caught every bug that has been introduced. But I'm sure there were bugs that have been on live for months that either A) have only been caught recently or B) haven't been caught at all. And, as the devs have stated several times, copying the data to the live servers can introduce bugs that were never on the test server. Which means that there was no way for them to be caught before they appeared on the live servers.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>No no, i know you guys do the best jobyou can and i dont expect every genral bug to be caught, but with the time they are taking with this combat revamp, i expect some good quality, and if every spell is not properly tested by the testing community (and im sorry, it's not physicaly possible as you dont have a level 50 character in each sub-class), then i feel that this is in part a faultof the devs.</p> <p>Implementing a temporary blue frog stage of testing, by simply having a complete test server save prieviously to it, then for say 3 days, allow blue-frogging as it has been dubed in SWG, and test each tier with each subclass for about 4 hours with as many people as possible, allow anyone willing to participate, and have the devs out like in the Splitpaw testing (i realy realy realy was glad to be a part of that, it was fun and it felt like we did get some good stuff accomplished, i realy hope devs do more active testing like that)</p> <p>Only for 3 days. Then the Reboot from the saved test server data, and any blue-frog created/altered characters are POOF gone! It's back to the server you know and love! ...Just with a 3 day time of unexplained mass unconciousness is all :smileywink:</p> <p>Would that sound like a reasionable, developer controlled testing enviornment that you would find agreeable to test this new combat revamp? </p> <p>I know they said they would be "testing this shortly" as i recall from a recient post by MG (i think) and i hope they handle it like that, allow for a brief period for people to scale in class an level by the dev's rules (testing each tier, 2 tiers a day, 4 hours each. Day 1 is tier 1 and 2, day 2 is tier 3 and 4, and day 3 is tier 5 (and possibly tier 6 if they want to test the next expansion's spells at this time, which i think that they were created along with the rest of the combat revamp to save resources probly)</p> <p>If you dont like this idea as well, please still post a good rebuttle, so far i like your aurguments, they are well thought out and worthy of merrit like any good debater.</p> <p>Kudos</p><hr></blockquote>The upcoming spell and combat changes are the largest changes to the core game system since release. Arguably, this patch is anticipated more than any adventure pack or expansion and will decide for many people whether they stay with the game or leave it for good. All you have to do is look at the posts on these forums and you will see people say they're sticking around for the spell/combat changes before they make up their mind if they're cancelling their account or not. This is probably the reason why SOE is taking their time with this patch. They know that if they blow this one, they're going to lose out. Knowing this, I believe that SOE will want these changes tested more so than any other changes. This could mean that devs run a larger number of  test matrix before checking in the code, SOE's internal QA team focuses only on these changes and runs an increased amount of scenario's or the code sits on the test server for a month to be beaten on by players.  What I would like to see SOE do is to test these changes like they would test a beta (yes, I know some people believe we're still testing the beta...)  I know that with EQ Live expansions and  EQ2, SOE holds closed beta tests. A small select group of players are chosen to test the new content before others. These people are chosen because they've proven to SOE that they are willing to put in the effort to test changes and  can be objective and constructive in their feedback.  A few weeks after they make it an open beta where any player can apply to play in the beta. This is usually where they would add the /betabuff command allowing you to make a character of any level.  This is where the majority of individual spell/combat art bugs would be found. Does spell X stop upgrading correctly at level 36? Does combat art Y not have an animation when used by an Iksar, etc...? After testing in the open beta for a few weeks, the data gets moved to test where testing would be more focused on how these changes interact with each other.  On test, you would find stacking issues, spells over-writting each other when they shouldn't, spells that become over-powered/under-powered when used in conjunction with spells/arts from other classes, etc.. And then finally the changes get pushed to live, relatively bug free and hopefully the majority of the players will like them. Will SOE lose players over these changes? Most likely they will. There will always be people who don't like the changes for some reason and decide to leave the game. But if the changes are fair and balanced I believe they will keep a lot more players than they lose and that other players who have left, will come back to see if the game is more enjoyable. Unfortunately, the above scenario is unlikely to happen.  Information about the upcoming changes has been sparse and people are growing tired and irritated from having to wait for these changes before their class will be looked at to get fixed. You can only read "This will be fixed with the upcoming spell/combat changes" so many times before you say "to hell with this" (and rightfully so).  Testing these changes in the various stages would postpone the changes even longer and I'm not sure people would be willing to wait that long, even if it meant the changes were bug free.</span><div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Thank you soooooo much for a very well thoguht out and intelligent post. Thats exactly how i would want to test these upcoming changes, but i doubt soe will go though the hassle of doing such a clean and indepth testing, but hey, they might nite the bullet and actually spend some of their time to do some hard core palyer testing. I know i would be one of the ones to jump right in on a moment's notice.</P> <P>And again i thank you for replying ina  civil, understandable, and overall well thought out post with reserched points. * * * * * from me :smileywink:</P> <P>Toodles!</P> <p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:12 PM</span>