Alternate Advancement Points = Concept Tried and Failed

[Greyfair]

<DIV>I played EQ Live from beta.  I saw a well developed and expansive game world that had a rather rounded backstory slowly fall apart over time as each new expansion was released with less and less tie in to the original world and more "candy" to satisfy certain groups.  The death knell was probably PoP and its teleporters.  Given that new way to travel huge areas of the game world were merely skipped over by most and the thrill of exploration and risk of overland travel was lost.  Most peeps merely followed the tried and true grinding grounds route to max their character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "end game" became the only goal and not merely a destination.  The most quick and efficient methods to get to max level were pursued by the masses sacraficing huge amounts of "on the way to the top" content.   AA points were one such gimmick and resulted in large numbers of peeps merely grinding mindlessly until they reached some AA threshold that would allow them to compete for raid slots.  It became work and a race to get to the best grind places first. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sadly I have read mention of the addition of AA points.  Not only did the original system not fit into the game ethos it turned EQ Live into work.  There are many things about EQ2 that promote gameplay.  The lack of coin drops prevents plat farming for the most part (another thing to go away soon) and the relative ability for each class to perform its base job -heal, dmg, etc- prevents the required trinity for raids that EQ Live has.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can only hope that EQ2 stays true to its original intent and does not morph (as it seems to be now) into EQ Live with better graphics.  If most of us from EQ Live wanted EQ Live game options we would have stayed there and not come over to EQ2 and the promise it held.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MSD </DIV>

[Moomar]

I have to agree whole heartily.Most of the content in Eqlive was introduced so the players who raced to max level in a month would not quit the game and in the end the completely left the average gamer out of the loop.I to see this game going that way as well. They way games seem to be trying apease both is giving the racers more content for them and dummying the game down for the average player. I still love this game but can see it going down the spiral the EQlive did to the average player but till then i am still here chugging along. <div></div>

[Razie Ber]

<div></div><div></div>Some of us don't feel that the continued ability to progress our character is "work", however you're entitled to feel that way yourself. Some of us also don't desire to reach a certain level of achievement and be able to "sit back and relax" knowing that we've completed "necessary" amount of advancement and will never have to worry about continuing to stay on the edge to compete on the highest level.. I personally think AA's are a wonderful idea, and if something that doesn't allow further advancement beyond just the insanely weak and easy level grind from this games 1 to 50, I'll most likely quick playing relatively soon after the expansion. I never view the effort I put toward progressing my character as work, and frankly, it's the main goal I have in playing.. Just because many people love doing quests, and running around exploring, or just randomly killing stuff with thier friends, doesn't mean all of us do. Some of us play with specific goals of progression in mind, be it getting all fabled gear, or being the first to a certain level, getting as many AA's, whatever.   That doesn't mean either of us are right or wrong. The big thing to remember is that all content is optional, in that if you don't like it, don't participate in it.  I don't like doing quests personally, I think they're all insanely boring and try my patience to the extremes, I rarely find the stories interesting or engrossing, however, plenty of people love them, and I'm happy that they do. Nobody is forcing me to do quests, although alot of people feel like doing Heritage and such are pretty much a given.  Nothing wrong with either of our styles. If AA's come out, nobody is forcing you to get any AA's at all, however, some guilds might require you to get some to be a member, if that's not your style, then obviously that guild's style isn't for you.. Why do people consistantly complain when something might be added to the game that might raise the bar of the top level of play that so often state isn't thier playstyle in the first place? Why do you feel it nessecary to try and  lower the bar of the entire game so that you and everyone else will automatically be at the top?  If you feel that you're in competition with someone, compete. If you're not competing, how does something like this affect you negatively? It's just a new layer of possible game depth for you to explore at your own pace.. Nobody is forcing you to try and be "hardcore", but if you're forcing yourself, don't try and make the game lesser so you don't have to work as hard for it, and bash something that many people would greatly enjoy, some of us don't see it as a chore. Thank you. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Razie Berry on <span class=date_text>07-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 AM</span>

[Greyfair]

<DIV>Although I inderstand your points I will offer two "counters" to some things you said.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You yourself used the word "grind" to describe your climb through the levels.  I have not often heard that word in the sentence as "enjoyment" or "fun".  Seems to allude to a play style where you are maximizing your exp gain above all else, but for what?  If your goal is to level up your avatar and that is what you get enjoyment from then why not start a new toon once your current one reaches 50.  Given the classes you should be able to experience 24 different journeys (not counting possible race options).  Should the basic game mechanics be changed because you have gotten to level 50 or 60 or whatever will come?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as AA points go the problem lies in the fact that many of the encounters added with the endless supply of expansions actually forced a player to have certain AAs to even be able to participate.  This was not based on any guild requirements...it was based on the mob abilities.   At that point AAs are no longer an optional part of the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you argue that there should be portions of the game that only those willing to invest the time in character development are able to enter then you become exclusive.  Such attitudes fratcure player bases.  This is what happened to EQ Live.   People left EQ Live and came to EQ2 not just for graphics, but for the fundamental game play changes.  To morph it into EQ Live with a prettier face will result in the same fate as before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MSD </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dae]

Contrary to your opinions AA points in EQLive have and continue to be a resounding success. EQ was always about the grind be it trade skilling, xp grinding or plat farming. Beyond raiding there wasn't much fun stuff to do really. AAs and systems such as faction and LDON points kept people coming back for more. <div></div>

[Xyl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyfairer wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You yourself used the word "grind" to describe your climb through the levels.  I have not often heard that word in the sentence as "enjoyment" or "fun".  Seems to allude to a play style where you are maximizing your exp gain above all else, but for what?  If your goal is to level up your avatar and that is what you get enjoyment from then why not start a new toon once your current one reaches 50.  Given the classes you should be able to experience 24 different journeys (not counting possible race options).  Should the basic game mechanics be changed because you have gotten to level 50 or 60 or whatever will come?<BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><BR>I think your missing the part where he said he wanted to progress his character, not charcter<STRONG>s</STRONG> or alts.<BR><BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>As far as AA points go the problem lies in the fact that many of the encounters added with the endless supply of expansions actually forced a player to have certain AAs to even be able to participate.  This was not based on any guild requirements...it was based on the mob abilities.   At that point AAs are no longer an optional part of the game.<BR> <HR> <BR>I'm honeslty curious, did you read what MG post about the possiblity for AAs? I'm not trying to be condisending. He said that they were going to find a way to make it completely optional so you were not required to have certain AAs to get into a group, etc.<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>If you argue that there should be portions of the game that only those willing to invest the time in character development are able to enter then you become exclusive.  Such attitudes fratcure player bases.  This is what happened to EQ Live.   People left EQ Live and came to EQ2 not just for graphics, but for the fundamental game play changes.  To morph it into EQ Live with a prettier face will result in the same fate as before.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>There are number of posts that are already arguing this point, for the sake of your thread not being derailed I hope no one feels the need to comment at length about this.</DIV>

[Greyfair]

<P>Actually AA points and such merely appeased those that <EM>stayed</EM>.  Yes, beyond raiding (the same raids over and over) and starting a new avatar there was not much left to do in the end game.</P> <P>So, is this not the time to move on then?  Can you reach the end of an MMORPG?  Most will say they only stayed in EQ Live for the relationships they developed and not for the game content.  You would be amiss to assume that those that stayed and liked AAs and other additions were the majority of the player base.  The reason that EQ Live introduced more and more high end content was that newer players were few and far between. </P> <P>Look at all the changes they made at the lower levels and during the early game play experience to entice new players.  The low level zones were for the most part empty in the end...except for twinks.   A MMORPG with only high end players, like a country with only elderly people, will ultimately fall. </P> <P>Given the ever expanding offering of MMORPGs on the market players now have choices.  EQ Live used to be the only first person perspective MMORPG game in town for a long time.  Not so anymore.  So it is encumbent on EQ2 to stay true to its original concept and not morph into something unrecognizable and risk losing its young.</P> <P>MSD</P>

[Xyl]

EQ1 is old and eventually all old games die. It's part of a MMOs life cycle, to say adding AAs will hasten it's demise is a bit silly. Especially when they want to make it an optional advancement that will not make drastic changes to a class to make them so overpowered not to have the AAs would be silly/insane.

[Greyfair]

<P>Xylia, I understand your points. </P> <P>As far as AA points go the same thing was said before their introduction into EQ Live....but I suppose one must wait and see how they are added here.</P> <P>Concerning advancing a single character I am curious as to if you think at some point you can finish an MMORPG.  This seems to be the fundamental question around which revolves most content expansion problems and the like.</P> <P>What do you expect from an MMORPG....?</P> <P>Most of us no doubt get our investment back in time played after the first month, especially if compared to say a movie ticket which on average is nine dollars US for two hours of entertainment.  </P> <P>So how long do you expect to play the same character in the same game?</P> <P>I think the answer to this says alot about how a person perceives changes in an MMORPG and what they feel is reasonable or needed.  </P> <P> </P> <P>MSD  </P>

[Xyl]

<P>I do not believe you can truly finish an MMO, you can get all the spells, gear, quests and still not be finished depending on how you look at the game. Is everyone in your guild in the same possition? No? Well then your not done. </P> <P>What I expect to get out of an MMO is simple. A few new friends, alot of fun times and a satisfied feeling at then end when I believe my time is done.</P> <P>How long I'll play depends on the people I hang out with, new content and how much fun I'm having. If all that happens for years I'll happily play for years.</P>

[Razie Ber]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>The term "Grind" need not always be used negatively. It's just a term used to decribe the consistant churning of some sort of advancement in my opinion, be it exp, quests, AA's, plat, whatever. I use the word "grind" affectionately. As to the other person who posted that I should level alts, well, I do, I have a relatively high character of each arch-type with the exception of mages, but I've recently started working on one of those. However, leveling alts isn't for everyone, many people hate the idea of doing it all over, and want to focus on one character, with continual advancement in mind. Also, I personally disagree with the mentality that all content should be as equally accessible to people of all play styles and situations.. I always believe that there should be a way for people with more dedication, exertion, skill, practice, whatever, to set themselves apart. Accomplisment ceases to be when it's given to you.  Do you truely feel that someone who puts forth more effort should achieve the same? Does that encourage growth or decadence? Competition is healthy in my opinion, although it often inspires anger by those who desire to be first but lack the desire to compete. Finally, I'll say that I believe its presumptuous to state that "most of us play this game to avoid EQ1 like gameplay", most of the people I play with, which I believe are far from a minority, wanted a new EQ-esque game with and updated feel..  It is Everquest "2" isn't it, the sequel to Everquest? Just because they stated that it would be more casual friendly, never was it stated that "This game will be exclusively for casual players", this game is already many degrees more friendly to the casual players than EQ1 was, and always will be.  Doesn't mean that the less casuals have to be excluded. Thanks for reading. <div></div><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Razie Berry on <span class=date_text>07-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:10 PM</span>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyfairer wrote:<BR> <DIV>I played EQ Live from beta.  I saw a well developed and expansive game world that had a rather rounded backstory slowly fall apart over time as each new expansion was released with less and less tie in to the original world and more "candy" to satisfy certain groups.  The death knell was probably PoP and its teleporters.  Given that new way to travel huge areas of the game world were merely skipped over by most and the thrill of exploration and risk of overland travel was lost. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are writing your opinions as if they are facts, but they're not. Even though you can find people who will agree with your points, that doesn't transform them into absolutes. This thread illustrates that plenty of other people feel that AAs and the Planes of Power expansion added great things to EverQuest. Neither group is right or wrong; it's simply how they feel.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Memory is selective. It is a common practice among humans to look back on events in the past and remember only certain things. As MMO gamers, we look back fondly on the early days of EQ and pick out the things we loved about it. If we do envision the unpleasant parts, most of us find some way to turn even those into a funny story. That's just something people do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an older generation of gamers, we naturally hope to recapture the early sense of excitement in new games, even if we can't quantify exactly what those feelings are. We instinctively seek out euphoria. The trouble is, the harder you look for it, the more likely you are to convince yourself that you can't find it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When PoP was released, there was abundant praise for the changes it brought to EverQuest. Many lauded the sense of progression, the new focus, the benefits of the Plane of Knowledge. Over time criticisms arose because it brought fundamental changes to the game, perhaps moreso than any expansion up to that point. And whenever we face change, part of us instincitvely begins saying things such as "But I liked it better back when..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's what we as humans do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before our game launched, I saw post after post from EQ players excitely hoping EQ2 would let them recapture the feeling of the early days of EverQuest. But that's like saying to yourself "Gosh, I hope my next girlfriend is as great as my first one was." Relationships don't work that way... even relationships with MMOs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And so you see posts now from people who tried EQ2 and say things like "It doesn't have the same feeling. They didn't recapture the magic of EQ." I have to think one of two things: either human nature is such that we unwittingly build up our expectations so high that nothing can meet them, or I and other team members didn't do a very good job of relaying how our game was going to be unique.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe it's both. All of us have discussed movies with friends. A common question is whether the new movie is as good as another movie. But what does "good" mean? What did you like about the first movie? What did you dislike about it? Would you really want to sit through the first movie over and over, or would you rather see something new and different?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can honestly tell you that I love playing EQ2. It's the game I want to play, despite the fact that I've bought and tried other MMOs, both before we've launched and after.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You could claim that this statement is biased because I'm on the SOE payroll, but that's not why. It's biased because I saw this game grow from an engine with a few playable zones into a fully populated world filled with the joy and personalities of people I got to know on a personal basis. When I enter a cool-looking zone, I know who made it look that way. When I laugh out loud at a funny quest, I know who wrote it. As features come into the game, I know who implemented them and why they did it the way they did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm biased because this is the first computer game I helped ship, and I watched it grow up to become something I'm very proud of. And because I helped it grow, even if not every facet of the game is what I would have chosen, I can appreciate it for what it is. Though the process of making games is easy to become cynical about, I'm more overwhelmed than ever by the magic that results from the hard work and dedication of people who care about what they're doing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you approach anything--games, movies, relationships, life--with a set of expectations as to how it should make you feel, you also bring with you the means to make yourself disappointed. But if you go into it with an open mind and let it become whatever it is destined to become, you just might find things you didn't expect, and a new sense of enjoyment you never saw coming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really, that's how many of us experienced the original EverQuest, and maybe that's the key to how you can let a game reveal its own unique magic.</DIV>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Razie Berry wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>The term "Grind" need not always be used negatively. It's just a term used to decribe the consistant churning of some sort of advancement in my opinion, be it exp, quests, AA's, plat, whatever. I use the word "grind" affectionately. <hr></blockquote>Grind to me means constantly repeating something for no real purpose other than increasing something. I don't like grinding and the only real objection I would have to any AA system is if it didn't offer alternative routes to gaining those AAs beyond mindless grinding. If I could quest for them as opposed to mindlessly grind XP for them then I would like them in game, so long as they did manage to make them completely optional and not such a difference to performance that some areas can't be done without them.</span><div></div>

[Razie Ber]

Tyron, I understand where you're coming from on that one, personally, I would desire for them not to be "quested" as I personally dislike doing quests in general, especially the long, drawn out ones, like many Heritage..  This however is just a matter of taste, and ideally I'd like there to be either a mix of paths to gain AA's, or a couple of distinct methods. As far as the "Grind" matter goes, I think it's just a matter of perception, slang has a tendency to evolve.  I think a great example would be the term "Troll" used in the context of "Trolling the message boards". Originally it referred to someone who was disruptive on message boards, but I think it's evolved into often being used to simply describe someone who spends alot of time reading and responding on message boards. <div></div>

[Vellek]

<DIV>Personally, I really enjoy playing my character. However, I like to develop him and watch him grow. I don't get enjoyment out of leveling a second and a third character. I simply do that to pass the time until I can do something meaningful on my main toon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2 is very fun for me. Despite the bugs, I am enjoying the game imensely. I see the devs taking an active role in various aspects of the game and that is more than I can say for most other MMOs I have played. The devs dont always do things the way I would do them, but I never expected that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alternate Advancement is perfect for me because I play a lot more than most players. Like I said previously, I like to develop my character and it is the main reason I play. If I am not improving my character in some way I do not get as much enjoyment out of the game. AAs provides me a way to do just that. Currently after you hit level 50 the only way to improve your character is to get better gear and spells. Master spells are few and far between. Adept 3s are pretty easy to get and I have all of mine. I am not all about getting loot, but the only gear I can get to improve my toon takes a decent sized raid force. If I had something else to do, be it AAs or another form of character advancement, that would improve my character while I was not raiding that would be perfectly acceptable to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My concern now is that the first expansion raises the cap by 10 levels. I suspect it will take me about a month to reach level 60, maybe less. If some other form of advancement is not offered then I dont know what will keep me interested over the next 10 or so months until the second expansion is released.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is that I am in support of AAs. They provide players like myself who have substantial amounts of playtime ways to keep improving their toon. It gives us something to do that is fun and provides some benefit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would the addition of AAs take away the enjoyment for the more casual player? I dont think so. They dont have to get AAs if they dont have the time or dont want them. Should they still be allowed to experiece every aspect of the game and defeat every encounter? Possibly, but consider this. If I play five times as much as you do I would expect my toon to be better than yours. Better meaning that my toon would have better gear or be able to do things a little easier than your toon. Is that fair? I think absolutely it is. If you work five times as much as I do I would expect you to have a better house and a better car than I do. I dont think a person who works 80 hours a week is too happy about people who can make the same amount of money working a part time job. Many times it happens, but in this game I personally think you should get greater rewards if you can put more time into developing and advancing your character. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it takes a hardcore player in a hardcore guild two months to defeat a specific encounter, and a casual player in a casual guild six months to defeat the same encounter, I see nothing wrong with that. If a casual player cant defeat the hardest encounter in an expansion until the release of the next expansion I really dont see anything wrong with that either. Casual players can still experience every aspect of the game, it just may take them a bit longer to experience it. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Vellek on <span class=date_text>07-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:04 PM</span>

[ginfress]

<DIV>nvm, i give up on Moorgard and Soe on these forums.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ginfress on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:21 AM</span>

[Sute]

Hell, i dont hope my next girl is like my first, she was a ......... well you get the point <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sullee808]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>You are writing your opinions as if they are facts, but they're not. Even though you can find people who will agree with your points, that doesn't transform them into absolutes. This thread illustrates that plenty of other people feel that AAs and the Planes of Power expansion added great things to EverQuest. Neither group is right or wrong; it's simply how they feel.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Memory is selective. It is a common practice among humans to look back on events in the past and remember only certain things. As MMO gamers, we look back fondly on the early days of EQ and pick out the things we loved about it. If we do envision the unpleasant parts, most of us find some way to turn even those into a funny story. That's just something people do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an older generation of gamers, we naturally hope to recapture the early sense of excitement in new games, even if we can't quantify exactly what those feelings are. We instinctively seek out euphoria. The trouble is, the harder you look for it, the more likely you are to convince yourself that you can't find it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When PoP was released, there was abundant praise for the changes it brought to EverQuest. Many lauded the sense of progression, the new focus, the benefits of the Plane of Knowledge. Over time criticisms arose because it brought fundamental changes to the game, perhaps moreso than any expansion up to that point. And whenever we face change, part of us instincitvely begins saying things such as "But I liked it better back when..."</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>PoP may have been lauded by the bored raiding guilds but my perspective is that it stunk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest thing that PoP did for me was to clarify that SOE had no intention of making a game for the non-raider.  This I think is especially an important issue for EQ2 as I see EQ2 heading down the same path.  You CANNOT continually make designs and decisions that reinforce the solo << group <<<< raid hierarchy and expect EQ2 not to end up exactly like EQ1.. a raiders only game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why have you not insulated raid rewards such that they do not trivialize other styles of play?  Do you even remember when masters were supposed to be rare?  Do you really think you can set rewards appropriate for challenge given the already vast gulf in gear between raiders and non-raiders?</DIV>

[Potentater]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When PoP was released, there was abundant praise for the changes it brought to EverQuest. Many lauded the sense of progression, the new focus, the benefits of the Plane of Knowledge. Over time criticisms arose because it brought fundamental changes to the game, perhaps moreso than any expansion up to that point. And whenever we face change, part of us instincitvely begins saying things such as "But I liked it better back when..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Not to split hairs, but the last good expansion for Everquest was Scars of Velious. The world seemed infinite then.  From Luclin on, Everquest became something very different, and seemed to be cheapened with each successive expansion.  PoP was good for raiding guilds, but it's what drained the life out of the game for the rest and made the world very, very small.  When EQ2 came out, it seemed to resolve the disjoint between hardcore raiders and the rest.  However, it became apparent, that to advance meant relying on the other players to do the right thing.  This is bad for MMORPG's.  EQ1 proved that the idea of a searchable bazaar makes in game money worthless, thus needing truckloads to go beyond trivial.  That's fine if there are ways to get truckloads, as there were in EQ1.  Now in EQ2, with the sponsored money auctions, pure player greed etc, history repeats itself. So...<BR>

[Named]

<DIV>I actually found PoP to be the most fun expansion.. And I wasn't in a raiding guild until atleast a year after PoP had been out.</DIV>

[Akaran2]

<P>I loved RoK - no complaints with it.<BR>I loved SoV - amazing.<BR>I didn't like SoL that much - except for zones like Netherbain and Hollowshade Moor. Ssra Temple's framerates gave me constant migranes.<BR>I LOVED PoP - best one for my style of play (raider, with soloist tendancies - the portals made my life sooooo much easier)<BR>I have nothing BUT love for both LDoN and the other mini expansion with the pirates. Both were incrediably well done.<BR>Absolutely hated GoD, quit soon after, but that's another story for another time.</P> <P>So far, I've enjoyed everything in EQ2. I have one character at 50, several below 20. EQ2 to me is what EQ1 should have been - no matter what, I always have something to do. I DO wish there was some post-50 progression afterwards, and something more than just amassing cash (yawn) or raiding (not always available) or mindlessly slaughtering creatures to earn Slayer titles. AA points would solve that problem for me. I hate doing a lvl 50 quest and getting nothing but a few coins; seeing that exp go to waste saddens me. =p</P> <P>I think as long as they're optional and not required (like Runspeed 3, Natural Durability and the one that increased your HPs) to progress, then they'd allow for additional character advancement and more reason for me to continue playing. I enjoy the game, but there are times when boredom does start to set in...</P>

[Feaw]

<P>PoP did add great things to EQ, but the teleporters and flagging restrictions were not part of them  IMO.   The world became a cold and sometimes isolated place except for the bazaar, PoK and the hot exp planes and even those became less populated as the agressive rush to the elemental planes eventually left the teir 1 planes behind.  When I left EQ during the end of beta for this game the teir 1 planes were very low in population and at times even empty, the older world exp zones were often camped by power levelers who would politely ( or sometimes not) tell you that this was a power leveling zone or the zones were empty.   All this due to the abilty of players to travel almost instantly accross the world and the drive to catch up to their friends and guild to be accredited as being acceptably flagged if you wanted to count.   I made journeys accross the world in the months before, during and just before launch and visited with the few friends who hadnt migrated to WoW.   It was sad, really really sad.   I was on a vibrant well populated server and it was like the crack that opened in the seal of the realms of the gods sealed the doom of the world of mortals.   Kind of ironic I suppose.   Why create all this magic if you are just going to kill it by not seeing the big picture?  I remember when I joined the world of norrath a few months before the Luclin expansion and the magic of the interaction between players.   I remember a smart wizard who introduced him self to me the bank in kelethin and the people who would gather at the spires.  I remember being rescued from taking the wrong boat and not knowing how to get off one of the islands and the kind druid who saved me from finding my way back to faydark from freeport.   I remember challenges and duels in the caves of east commons.   It was so magical that it took me away from my earthly troubles.   Im still looking to find it again but you see its this magical balance between players and developers that makes it work.  If you cater to the mad race and forget the world they leave behind that magic wont happen.   People have to have a reason to come home.  There are already many loose ends in the newbie zones and the cities that could use some tieing into the later zones.    The other thing is I keep seeing power gamers  in these forums state quite frankly that they dont care about the other kind of players.   You need to believe them.   </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Zuuljin]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When PoP was released, there was abundant praise for the changes it brought to EverQuest. Many lauded the sense of progression, the new focus, the benefits of the Plane of Knowledge. Over time criticisms arose because it brought fundamental changes to the game, perhaps moreso than any expansion up to that point. And whenever we face change, part of us instincitvely begins saying things such as "But I liked it better back when..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Your right, it did bring fundamental changes to the game, it was the expansion that turned EQ into the hardcore raiding game it is today, which has alienated many casual players.   Even the devs of EQ1 said raiding the way it was done in PoP was a mistake, and that was a vast majority of what the expansion had to offer.  PoP also did one of the worst things imaginable for widening the gap between casuals and hardcore's ( speaking in terms of play length ).  Elemental exp.  Who thought it was a good idea to reward people who play alot, with the ability to gain exp even FASTER then people who did not have as much time?  Complete reversal of the vitality system going on there.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I think it would be hard to find anyone to disagree with the 'opinion' that good for the game or not, the PoK books completely destroyed any sense of living in a complete 'world', with being able to jump around without any consistancy.  I had a few friends who started after PoK who didnt know how to get from Qeynos to Halas, and they started in Qeynos!  Rediculous.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I stuck around hoping the next expansion would bring added power to help my casual guild progress through PoP, and what we got was GoD, a whole expansion that was 90% geared toward the uber of the uberest.   I quit shortly after.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for needing AA's to 'progress' I think is misleading.  This is only my opinion, but I dont think even if AA's were added people would not stick around.  Why?  Because everything has already been beaten.  AA's were fun because you needed them to litteraly progress.  In order to see the next zone, you had to get your tanking AA's or whatever.  That was the drive to get AA's.  Whats the point of progressing if there is nothing to progress too.  So you can finish the 15 min raid in 10 min?  Farm old raid mobs that are unfarmable?  Big whoop.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the last expansions, OoW I think it was, took around 5-6 months to be beaten.  Thats counting the fact that these people were topped off from the previous expansions, had a ton of AA's, and were max level.  And it STILL took them that long.  EQ2 on the other hand was completed even sooner, with people starting from level 1!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why did it take so long?   Because people needed to 'progress' through AA's and gear and flags.  And again, theres nothing to progress into in EQ2.  Expansions should come out just as people are finishing the current content.  I dont know if it was bad planning on the EQ2 team or not, but DoF should have been out this month or even last month to keep people interested.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, sort of rambling on, my point is that PoP was a mistake, acknowledged by the devs themselves.</DIV>

[Reiano]

Pop is what made me quit I was always in a raideing guild before that but it cranked up what was needed to compete to a unhealthy level with all the flagings and  aa if you werent on some nite you were scrwed for weeks  before you could join youre guild again.  I just want to log on and kill stuff and get stuff that wasnt happening and you no eq2 is takeing off rite in its place. Eq1 did have early success and was fun as hell cause there was real danger awesome loot and you didnt have to play every single nite eq2 is boreing pepole to tears with wood chests after wood chest nites haveing to kill the same stuff over and over again for NO reward most nites suck hard. And they make stuff harder but its still the same with the some old crap I fell for the new guilds comeing up.  <div></div>

[Sorvani]

<span><blockquote><hr>Akaran2 wrote:<p>I think as long as they're optional and not required (like Runspeed 3, Natural Durability and the one that increased your HPs) to progress, then they'd allow for additional character advancement and more reason for me to continue playing. I enjoy the game, but there are times when boredom does start to set in...</p><hr></blockquote>It is NOT possible to make something like AA optional. AA will break this game as bad as it broke EQL if they implement it. Yeah it sucks to hit 50 and watch that XP go off into the ether. but adding any kind of advancement system outside of the existing level based system will break it. You are asking for something for character advancement, yet saying it needs ot be optional and not required. ummif it is advancing your character, it will BECOME a requirement. Just look at any of the PoP and later raiding guilds. Level was meaningless. the real requirements were based on your AA's. no tanks were wanted with out all the def skills. and a cleric without all the crit heals and improved heals was similarly not wanted. Name me ANY ability they can put in that would allow for "character advancement" and not raise the bar even further in the Solo vs. Group vs. Raid environment. You can't because the entire meaning of the phrase "character advancement" means something that will increase the characters ability to do SOMETHING. Personally for EQ2, i've intentionally played the game diverse enough(alts and tradeskill) to not have hit the level cap with my main yet because i didn't want to fall into the same routine i had for EQL. IMO the best thing SoE should do is to remove expanding the tie between level caps and expansions, and instead map out an advancement rate of the level cap, and design enough flexibility into the zones to allow for it. This would be extremely hard , but i think some kind of dynamic steady progression would negate most of the issues with "nothing to do" because people would know WHEN they could continue to advance. This is a fundamental problem with any level based advancement system. There will always be people who don't give a ratonga's [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about the journey and only care about the destination. For these people there will never be a way to please them. Most of these people also had maxed out all the "important" AA's as fast a they could. then they bank rolled their 30 unspent points only buying new abilities from the "accessory" and "junk" AA's when they needed to reduce the amount they had banked.. In closing i'll agree that maybe SoE should look at finding something to do for the "well i'm 50. now what?" crowd, but i only say look into it. not do anything about it without fully understanding the consequences. For now i'm enjoying the journey, but i've been felling that raid itch again every once in a while. and that means finish my trip to 50 (soon 60) and begin raiding. </span><div></div>

[itali]

<DIV>EverQuest 2 is not Everquest Live. DO NOT turn it into the same game with pretty graphics for the love of god.</DIV>

[Shemyaza]

one of the main complaints from everyone is that no-ones character in eq2 is unique. why the OP has such complaints about AA i don't know. AA's was one way in which people could build widely different characters, with completely different skills to advance their character. i played a mage (still do infact) in eqlive. the multitude of AA let me build my character to suit my style of play right down to the ground. stronger pets; better nukes; less fizzles; more offensive pet; more defensive pet; more mana regen; more hitpoints; more avoidance , these are just some of the skills that were available to me as a mage. granted some classes had less choice and a more clearly defined AA path; but i had plenty of choice and never felt restricted at all. the OP seems dead set against AA (or any way to advance a character that he/she does not personally like); guess what? other people like to play the game is a different way. live with it. <span><blockquote><hr>Greyfairer wrote: The most quick and efficient methods to get to max level were pursued by the masses sacraficing huge amounts of "on the way to the top" content. <span> </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>you seem to be aiming this quote at the PoP expansion. the great thing about PoP was that you <i>couldn't </i>skip content en route. you raided and got your flags. you say <b>ALL </b>content on the way. this is no difference to the AP which take you along a set path as you adventure deeper into it.</span> <div></div>

[Zuuljin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Shemyaza wrote:<BR>one of the main complaints from everyone is that no-ones character in eq2 is unique. why the OP has such complaints about AA i don't know. AA's was one way in which people could build widely different characters, with completely different skills to advance their character.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Hardly, nearly every class had a 'path' for their AA's.  How many mages did you come across that did not focus on doing damage?  Cause thats what it breaks down too.  Maybe some HP / defense, but just so you'll survive AE's.  In a normal group it would be silly for a mage to have high hp / defensive AA's if the tank is doing his job.  </FONT><BR><BR>i played a mage (still do infact) in eqlive. the multitude of AA let me build my character to suit my style of play right down to the ground. stronger pets; better nukes; less fizzles; more offensive pet; more defensive pet; more mana regen; more hitpoints; more avoidance , these are just some of the skills that were available to me as a mage. granted some classes had less choice and a more clearly defined AA path; but i had plenty of choice and never felt restricted at all.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Glad to see that your shortsighted in that as long as AA's were fine for you, then it doesnt matter that they were game breaking for other classes.</FONT><BR><BR>the OP seems dead set against AA (or any way to advance a character that he/she does not personally like); guess what? other people like to play the game is a different way. live with it.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Just happens that 'your' way of playing breaks the game for other people.</FONT><BR><SPAN></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyfairer wrote:<BR><BR>The most quick and efficient methods to get to max level were pursued by the masses sacraficing huge amounts of "on the way to the top" content.<BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>you seem to be aiming this quote at the PoP expansion. the great thing about PoP was that you <I>couldn't </I>skip content en route. you raided and got your flags. you say <B>ALL </B>content on the way.<BR><BR>this is no difference to the AP which take you along a set path as you adventure deeper into it.<BR></SPAN><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>In EQ1 all I cared about a mage doing was damage.  I dont care what AA's you had, as long as they were ones that upped your dmg, which just about all of them did.  Your AA paths were not that 'different' from other mages.  Mana regen?  You nuke more doing more dmg.  Higher dmg nukes?  More dmg done.  Less fizzles, less mana wasted, more nukes, more dmg.  Offensive pet?  More dmg done.  I'm sorry you were under the impression you were "different" from other mages, but in the end, all it came down too was which mage did more dmg, whether it was from your pet, your nukes, or your uber melee skills, noone really cared.</DIV>

[Melkor]

<DIV>Not going to touch the PoP debate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do you add something to progress a person that enjoys to "grind" and yes i said enjoys it. I love just killing mobs when all there is for me is EXP. I have only done the heritage quest in the game for two reason 1. Gives me DKP 2. Gebs are a must for caster((really not looking forward to have to HAVE to have that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing robe now to even come close in mana regen again)). Implementing something that gives no reward and is just fluff for me would mean no reason to do it. But that is not the same for all. AA should most definately have multiple methods if they do choose to bring something of this nature back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally enjoyed AA's and i was a hardcore raider in EQ. I did most of my AA with outa guild friends i blew by in lvling due to my love of grinding and big play time style. But i must agrea over time with so much that was added to AA's they became bad for the casual as AA's became a must for raid progression plus  a must have for basic high end content and that can be said to have happened at different points in the games life(( althogh i do imagine most will pick PoP era)).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would love to have something of the AA's brought back. Personally i think they should allow a skill set style into the AA's for making your character more defined but not more powerful((this is extremely hard to do for any game designer as people always look for that SUPER MAN combo)). Warlock have aa's that make you more nuke definded or dot style. I always wanted my warlock to be a heavy dot person and leave the big nukes up to the wizard anyway. But to give this as an option for aa's and not just give me new ability i think woudl be a good way for it. but is just one man's opinion there. Have it set up in a fashion that allows for developement in say benefits to raiding versus grouping versus soloing. Allow respect of this at ANYTIME((i don't mean down to the minute but say like once a month u can reset the whole thing and not just a few parts))  with a small penalty of coin or something to keep it from happening all the time. That way if the person changes play style they can quickly change toon to fit there new style.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the end there needs to be something for the person that only wants to lvl 1 toon and never look back just gear progression((wich really isn't there for alot of the classes at the moment)) isn't a good thing. You end up with many people focusing on "uber"gear. Having something that you can do besides it must be added to any game for it not to die. I personally of course like the idea of a skill set of some kind but for the love of god don't do the diablo/diablo3((WoW)) style skill set its just lame. This i think is something SoE can introduce overtime not with an expansion just bring into game that would make it UNIQUE and can perhaps please many style of gameplay but its going to be so hard for them to do but can mean greatness however they choose to implement further progression for a toon besides gear.</DIV>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zuuljin wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Shemyaza wrote:<BR>one of the main complaints from everyone is that no-ones character in eq2 is unique. why the OP has such complaints about AA i don't know. AA's was one way in which people could build widely different characters, with completely different skills to advance their character.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Hardly, nearly every class had a 'path' for their AA's.  How many mages did you come across that did not focus on doing damage?  Cause thats what it breaks down too.  Maybe some HP / defense, but just so you'll survive AE's.  In a normal group it would be silly for a mage to have high hp / defensive AA's if the tank is doing his job.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>So?  Ceratin AAs were popular woth certain classes..  Big news there.</FONT><BR><BR>i played a mage (still do infact) in eqlive. the multitude of AA let me build my character to suit my style of play right down to the ground. stronger pets; better nukes; less fizzles; more offensive pet; more defensive pet; more mana regen; more hitpoints; more avoidance , these are just some of the skills that were available to me as a mage. granted some classes had less choice and a more clearly defined AA path; but i had plenty of choice and never felt restricted at all.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Glad to see that your shortsighted in that as long as AA's were fine for you, then it doesnt matter that they were game breaking for other classes.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>You can reverse this sentence to apply to yourself you know.   If you do not like AAs, don't grind them.</FONT><BR><BR>the OP seems dead set against AA (or any way to advance a character that he/she does not personally like); guess what? other people like to play the game is a different way. live with it.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Just happens that 'your' way of playing breaks the game for other people.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Breaks it how?   Lets say EQ2 came out with a initital 200 levels instead of 50.  Would you argue level 51+ breaks the game for you because you do not have the time to level, and there is no artificial barrier to keep players that play the game more then you more inline with your characters slow progression?</FONT><BR></P><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyfairer wrote:<BR><BR>The most quick and efficient methods to get to max level were pursued by the masses sacraficing huge amounts of "on the way to the top" content.<BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>you seem to be aiming this quote at the PoP expansion. the great thing about PoP was that you <I>couldn't </I>skip content en route. you raided and got your flags. you say <B>ALL </B>content on the way.<BR><BR>this is no difference to the AP which take you along a set path as you adventure deeper into it.<BR></SPAN><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>In EQ1 all I cared about a mage doing was damage.  I dont care what AA's you had, as long as they were ones that upped your dmg, which just about all of them did.  Your AA paths were not that 'different' from other mages.  Mana regen?  You nuke more doing more dmg.  Higher dmg nukes?  More dmg done.  Less fizzles, less mana wasted, more nukes, more dmg.  Offensive pet?  More dmg done.  I'm sorry you were under the impression you were "different" from other mages, but in the end, all it came down too was which mage did more dmg, whether it was from your pet, your nukes, or your uber melee skills, noone really cared.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Yes, AAs improve your character.  So what?  Yea, wizards will take ones that make them nuke harder, tanks will go for defensive ones, etc. etc.   So whats the news about?</FONT></DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Also. someone else posted this copy/paste:</P> <P>You are asking for something for character advancement, yet saying it needs ot be optional and not required. ummif it is advancing your character, it will BECOME a requirement. Just look at any of the PoP and later raiding guilds. Level was meaningless. the real requirements were based on your AA's. no tanks were wanted with out all the def skills. and a cleric without all the crit heals and improved heals was similarly not wanted. Name me ANY ability they can put in that would allow for "character advancement" and not raise the bar even further in the Solo vs. Group vs. Raid environment. You can't because the entire meaning of the phrase "character advancement" means something that will increase the characters ability to do SOMETHING.<BR><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>So, a requirement with who?  Who didnt want you?  A uber guild on your server?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Some guilds always put restrictions on classes that apply.  Right now, some require certain adept 3s and certain quality of gear.   So what if some cannot meet a guilds requirements.  If this really your best argument against having AAs?  If it is, it is a pretty weak argument.   </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Sorry to those that feel inferior to other players that spend more time advancing their character.  Tuff noogies.  Your arhuments boild down to the same as a level 20 character arguing the level cap should be at 20 and not 50 because you do not have the time to get level 50.   Well, no one else cares how limited you are in your playtime.  Sounds like a personal problem.  /shrug</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sorvani wrote: <span>It is NOT possible to make something like AA optional. AA will break this game as bad as it broke EQL if they implement it. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually I think it is possible, if you are really clever about what you do with them, some ideas: For Wizard: Elemental mastery cold / heat / magic [Choose one, can be taken multiple times] - Allows any spell to be converted to a different damage type, at an increase power cost (e.g. Ice comet doing heat damage) For Fighters / Scouts: Flat of the Blade, Spiked Shield, Pommel Swipe etc. - Allows the conversion of a specific damage special to a different damage type, at a penalty to damage done For Priest: Delayed Heal - Allows you to add a short delay to a heal / ward / regen before it kicks in and its timer starts (e.g. Allowing it to be cast before the tank runs off to pull and start working in 5 seconds, just as he gets hit) For Scouts: Fresh Meat - Random chance of recieving a short duration high quality food item every time you kill an animal type mob For All: Skilled Diver - Extra 10% breath when swimming underwater I am sure I could come up with more, I believe these could be optional and not cause great unbalance</span><div></div>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>uglak wrote:<div></div> <blockquote><blockquote></blockquote></blockquote> <p><font color="#66ff00">Just happens that 'your' way of playing breaks the game for other people.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffcc00">Breaks it how?   Lets say EQ2 came out with a initital 200 levels instead of 50.  Would you argue level 51+ breaks the game for you because you do not have the time to level, and there is no artificial barrier to keep players that play the game more then you more inline with your characters slow progression?</font></p> <span> </span> <div></div><hr></blockquote>If the AAs can make one character 'of the same level' considerably more powerful than another then it can break the game, why? because a level 50 mob should be a challenge to anyone else who is level 50, to one with good equipment it is going to be a minor challenge, to one with bad equipment it is going to be very difficult. However if your AAs make you half as tough again as someone without them then it is going to make that mob trivial to you, so either those mobs need to be scaled up to be a challenge to you (making them too hard for the average guy), or will be trivial to you. Either way it is breaking the core mechanic of game difficulty, the level.</span><div></div>

[Sullee808]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Shemyaza wrote:<BR>one of the main complaints from everyone is that no-ones character in eq2 is unique. why the OP has such complaints about AA i don't know. AA's was one way in which people could build widely different characters, with completely different skills to advance their character.<BR><BR>i played a mage (still do infact) in eqlive. the multitude of AA let me build my character to suit my style of play right down to the ground. stronger pets; better nukes; less fizzles; more offensive pet; more defensive pet; more mana regen; more hitpoints; more avoidance , these are just some of the skills that were available to me as a mage. granted some classes had less choice and a more clearly defined AA path; but i had plenty of choice and never felt restricted at all.<BR><BR>the OP seems dead set against AA (or any way to advance a character that he/she does not personally like); guess what? other people like to play the game is a different way. live with it.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can understand liking spec'ing or customizing your character by selecting aa to earn or in some games spending specialization points.  I can also understand wanting something to do.</P> <P>However, I cannot think of worse timing.  Why in the wide wide world of sports would anyone try to graft on an aa system when they are already in the middle of both a combat and spell/ca revamp?  Frankly at this point adding new abilities would just put reasonable balance further out of reach.  Many many CA's and spells are buggy turds that have never worked right not to mention more than a few classes have very poorly designed spell/CA lines which do not even support a coherant class role.  You want to just up and slap an aa system on top of that?</P> <P>Now most of the complaint is really that folks want something to do.  While I have some empathy for that I also recognize that no matter what there will be people who always will be complaining wanting more content.  It's impossible for game companies to keep up really.  It doesn't help that SOE has once again given raiders rewards which trivialize the other styles of play.</P>

[Shemyaza]

i think the idea of AA flaoting around is indicative of a more serious problem: people feel their character is no different from all the others running around. maybe the expansion will bring greater diversity for everyone or maybe it wont. as it stand right now everyone is pretty much the same as everyone else. this included high level raiders and casuals alike. there's 2 really great posts that point this problem out exactly as it is. one is "so you want to be a raid tank" or something, and the other is by the same author. sullee808 wrote : It doesn't help that SOE has once again given raiders rewards which trivialize the other styles of play. raiders play to raid. the fact that they have equipment that took 12 or 24 people to get them should make it better then anything a single group/solo player can get. you can't balance a random xp mob for non-raiders and raiders at the same time. the splitpaw idea of having different difficulties for the same zone should make mroe people happy tho. people who are raiders <i>like</i> difficult content. i'm sure they are bored with what a mroe casual player considers a "tough" opponent. <div></div>

[dreiden]

I read a review on guild wars and found out how there skills work and thought of how a system like it could be put into eq2 in the form of AA without it becoming the monster of eq1. The idea is this. In guild wars you can get all kinds of different skills, but can only use 8 at any 1 time. So what I thought eq2 could do if they wanted to go the root of AA, is make it so there are many different choices for AA but that even if you have only 8 skills or 50 skills purchased you can only use 8 at any 1 time. Of course it doesn't have to be 8, they could use any number just as long as it isn't so impossible to achieve. The advantage of the power gamer/grinder in this situation is merely selection. They will become more and more able to deal with different situations, especially if some of the abilities include boosting resistance vs certain elements, or something like a defensive proc that boast attack speed for 5 seconds. I think if a system like this would be a better alternative to eqs AA. But all I remember being a warrior in eq was that I had a whole crap load of offensive abilities I would never get because to be a tank in a group i had to hammer away at defensive first and I never even finished doing that with 150+ AA. <div></div>

[Nolrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sullee808 wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>PoP may have been lauded by the bored raiding guilds but my perspective is that it stunk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest thing that PoP did for me was to clarify that SOE had no intention of making a game for the non-raider.  This I think is especially an important issue for EQ2 as I see EQ2 heading down the same path.  You CANNOT continually make designs and decisions that reinforce the solo << group <<<< raid hierarchy and expect EQ2 not to end up exactly like EQ1.. a raiders only game. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It's clear that you don't have a clue as to what EQ1 is today.  EQ1 is hardly a raiders only game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> Sullee808 wrote:<BR><BR>However, I cannot think of worse timing.  Why in the wide wide world of sports would anyone try to graft on an aa system when they are already in the middle of both a combat and spell/ca revamp?  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Did I miss something?  I thought I had been keeping current with all the things they had planned.  I don't recall an immenent release of AAs (and the expansion did not mention AAs as well.)  Can you please direct me to the link where it says they plan on adding on an AA system now?</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Nolrog on <SPAN class=date_text>07-03-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:07 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Nolrog on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:07 AM</span>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lisasdarren wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>If the AAs can make one character 'of the same level' considerably more powerful than another then it can break the game, why? because a level 50 mob should be a challenge to anyone else who is level 50, to one with good equipment it is going to be a minor challenge, to one with bad equipment it is going to be very difficult.<BR><BR>However if your AAs make you half as tough again as someone without them then it is going to make that mob trivial to you, so either those mobs need to be scaled up to be a challenge to you (making them too hard for the average guy), or will be trivial to you. Either way it is breaking the core mechanic of game difficulty, the level.<BR></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ermm, is this theory or in practice?...   Because, having played eq1 out the yin yang, I cannot think of even 1 mob that a level 60 with 300 aas could kill that a level 60 with no AAs couldnt handle either.    So, I do not think that it happened.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, maybe they attuned raid mobs for people with AAs, but again, doesnt really matter, as the people raiding those mobs had the AAs, the same as it would be now.    So far, equipement means very little in this game.  level 50 mobs are easy and easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if it is so, how would a level 50 with 300 AAs soloing white/yellows, while a level 50 with 10  aas have to solo blues break gameplay?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It wouldnt, no more then a level 60 character is going to break gameplay for a level 50 character when the expansion comes out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:19 AM</span>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>uglak wrote: <blockquote> <hr> lisasdarren wrote:<span> <blockquote>If the AAs can make one character 'of the same level' considerably more powerful than another then it can break the game, why? because a level 50 mob should be a challenge to anyone else who is level 50, to one with good equipment it is going to be a minor challenge, to one with bad equipment it is going to be very difficult. </blockquote> <hr> </span></blockquote> <div>Ermm, is this theory or in practice?...   Because, having played eq1 out the yin yang, I cannot think of even 1 mob that a level 60 with 300 aas could kill that a level 60 with no AAs couldnt handle either.    So, I do not think that it happened.   </div> <hr></blockquote>I'm not talking about anything that is already done, my point is that IF AAs make one character </span><span><span>considerably more powerful than another then it could be game breaking. Racial traditions can already make some difference, having good gear does too; already with +def and +hp racial traits and good equipment my dwarf can do things i have seen other similar level paladins completely fail at. Imagine if he also had 20 or 30 AAs similar to existing racial traits like, +5 def, +5% hp, +5% power, +5 in combat regen, +5% mitigation, +5 parry, +5 slashing, +5% to each resist etc. He would basically become far overpowered and trivialise content designed for his level, that is breaking the game. No-one of a certain level should be trivialising the content designed for their level, it make the level progresion (which is this games indicator of relative power) become meaningless. </span></span><div></div>

[ugl]

<P>I do not agree.   Someone who is active level 50 for the last 4 months SHOULD BE STRONGER then someone who busted 50 last night.    In fact, MUCH stronger.  You can call it game breaking if you want.  I call it character progression.  Artificial level caps are what is game breaking , not the oppurtunities to improve characters through AAS AND levels.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>You can say it COULD... but, fact is, it wasnt...  it wasnt game breaking in eq1, and there is no reason it will be game breaking in eq2...    so COULD  does not mean anything.  A new indicator of power would be levels and AAs...  As it was in EQ1..  Nothing was broke.   Just more oppurtunites to build your character.  A brand new level 50 is still a newbie compared to a level 50 from 4 months ago, and rightfully so.  Limiting ways to build characters, on a game all about building characters, is dumb.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:23 AM</span>

[jimbrit]

<P>As someone who never played EQ in any form before EQ2 , I have been following the AA debate with some interest.</P> <P>This may be a simplistic view but maybe one answer is that AA's be introduced, but as we all know every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. So for example, for every Warlock that chooses to increase their nuke ability by 5% (arbitary figure) by using an AA point, they lose 5% of say their hitpoints/power/delete as appropriate. This would really cause some differential in characters as one lvl 50 would/could have significantly more/less power/dps/hp etc</P> <P> </P> <P>My 2p</P><p>Message Edited by jimbrit on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:30 AM</span>

[Sanjinn]

Very well said Moorgard, very well said. 

[Deadjest]

<P>Actualy AA really doesn't have a place within this game system.   If you do it from a logical progression, AA would become a Flaw here.</P> <P>This game has two aspects at the moment, the content and graphics just blow me out of this world.    The EQ team did a wonderful job and Splitpaw is great.   I love the Adventure Packs that come out.   Not only is it a good money maker for EQ, but it lets them try stuff and see if it works or fails befor the invest the costs into making a Expansion for us.</P> <P>The con at the moment is the lack luster and watered down nature of the class's,  there are alot of class's which I really love as a concept, for I love diversity but they don't live up to their name sake at the moment and seem more of a title then a reality.    But I have hopes for it in the future.</P> <P>Back to AA.   From a logic stand point, AA does not have a place in this game, the only concept AA fills is a pure raid stand point which is a failure in concept.   I to have played EQ since it came out and AA transfered not only for just raiding but down to standard content which is why AA is not a wise choice.</P> <P>EQ already has a wonderful concept <STRONG>IF </STRONG>they follow the logic of the game they now have.</P> <P><STRONG>Diversity</STRONG> is the foundation of this system <STRONG>NOT</STRONG> a AA pattern.   </P> <P>This can be continued by following the logical pattern that was already set into motion.    When a char hits 51, give him a choice to once again have two branches to pick from with their own simuliar and different abilities.</P> <P>You can even branch the traits if you like.</P> <P>Since I play a SK it could be anything such as one SK uses Poison attacks while one uese Disease, one cripples its enemies with Debuffs while one has a lot of syphion attacks, etc, etc </P> <P>But end result is you will have a game continuing to grow without the bogging down nature of AA which causes a <STRONG>Either or Situation</STRONG>.   You either have this or you can't do that.</P> <P>Just continue as is and follow what you have and let the chars branch in either class or abilities which is alwasy foward where AA can cause a halting action if you don't have it.</P> <P>As for PoP,  it was a good idea that was blown out of perportion.   EQ2 has it much better now with the boat rides and such, its some travel with some short cuts.</P> <P>If anything, as the game gets larger and larger I would prefer to see more cities arise, and you would have to take a boat and travel to a land and from there you travle over land to another city that can access more content via more boat rides or even blimp transit from the Gnomes.</P> <P>But protal hopping is generaly a sign of decay, that I would keep a eye open for.</P> <P>I found Mooraguards post some what disturbing, it had a few patterns in the text that I find cause for concern about in gaming and will have to think about for a bit.   Unless this was a personal post on his part which I find has no place from a professional point of view here,  for him to defend a game he is not now working on but is related to this game.   Well that is plain odd and logicaly means that somthing is in the works that is related to the defence of what  he has now brought up.</P> <P>But we will see.</P> <P>If so, I ask that you reconsider the illogical concept of AA for this game and go the route that this game started and should end with.  For what you have now greater then what the previous game had and has <STRONG>Much</STRONG> room for growth in many directions.</P> <P>I spent 5 years predicting EQ at 2 years a shot from any given point and was almost dead on constantly and when the next expansion comes out, that will pretty much set the pace more or less.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Deadjester on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 AM</span>

[lisasdarr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>uglak wrote: <p>I do not agree.   Someone who is active level 50 for the last 4 months SHOULD BE STRONGER then someone who busted 50 last night.    In fact, MUCH stronger.  </p></blockquote>Stronger? Only if they have obtained better gear than the person who has just reached level 50, and then it should be only slightly, when you reach the level cap you stop progressing until they raise it. <blockquote><p> A brand new level 50 is still a newbie compared to a level 50 from 4 months ago, and rightfully so.  Limiting ways to build characters, on a game all about building characters, is dumb.</p></blockquote> No a level 50 is a level 50, no matter when they got to level 50, the learning curve is from 1-50 (and beyond when the cap raises), it doesn't start when you reach 50. As to your last point, this game is not about building characters, if you think that then no wonder you are bored and need more progression. This game is about the world of Norrath, the people and places and stories within it. Leveling is a side effect of playing the game, if it becomes the goal then you will miss significant parts of the game, and since it is so easy to level you will get bored very quickly. <blockquote><hr></blockquote> If level 50 was the maximum level you are ever going to reach then any sort of AA system moving on from there is a good idea, however 50 is no different in level terms from any other level from 1-49, it is another step along the route to level 200 (or where-ever the end is) If they do implement an AA system is needs to be designed to work alongside the level system and to be available to all levels if they chose to take advantage of it. Edited to add: Basically we are never going to agree on this, you want a way to keep on getting more and more powerful as your character, I want the system to limit your power so that anyone who joins the game in a years time and levels up doesn't find themselves at a significant disadvantage. I don't believe that just continuing to play the game once you have reached the limit of the progression justifies an increase in power. I am all for them implementing an AA system, one which allows those who want to push the limits of progression to do so, but which doesn't so overpower characters that they move outside the power bracket for their level. See my post a few back with some ideas, I also like the idea of allowing AA customisations that will increase one area of your character, while reducing a different area. Allow a number of AAs to unlock at every 10th level from 30 upwards, once you pass that limit you can chose to spend your XP on AA points rather than leveling and gain a variety of interesting and varied abilities that are not overpowered. </span><span>I don't object to more progression, I do object to a two tier game with the god likes with fabled equipment and a full set of AAs at one end and the average player so far away they can't imagine doing the things the former group are capable of.</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by lisasdarren on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:27 PM</span>

[Errie_Tholluxe]

<span><blockquote><hr>Deadjester wrote:<div></div> <p>Actualy AA really doesn't have a place within this game system.   If you do it from a logical progression, AA would become a Flaw here.</p> And that pretty much sums up my point of view on it too, well said. </blockquote></span><div></div>

[Greyfair]

<DIV>Firstly as far as "selective memory" goes it can be said that we all have bias, to include SOE Developers.  I would find it hard to say a product I released was flawed in some manner or that a new play mechanic had a detrimental effect on the basic framework of a game.  Mind you this is not something simple like a poorly executed patch that could be fixed in a night, but something larger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perceptions are something we base decisions on in the absence of factual information.  Until I am presented with statistics that depict the flucuations in the player base population over time as expansions were introduced in EQ Live then I will base my opinions on what I and my mates experienced over the life of that game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ Live became a high end content game and this is neither good nor bad...just a direction.  Many people found the huge amount of time required to execute a large raid to be enjoyable, many did not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as those that make statements like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"If I play five times as much as you do I would expect my toon to be better than yours. Better meaning that my toon would have better gear or be able to do things a little easier than your toon."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would submit that if you and I were both the same level then yes, I could agree.  The statment is flawed, however, because the baseline of comparison is not the same...ie you would be "better" by mere fact of having more levels over time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I would say is true is that if you play five times as much as I do then I would merely expect that you will "finish" the game five times faster than I will.  For many this "end game" means you will reach level 50, 60 or whatever the cap is before others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all it is a balnce that is hard to keep..the one between the those that have less time to play (casual) and those that have more time (hardcore).  Time dedicated is the ultimate factor, but the problem that often arises is when altering the game for those at the "end" the game is also altered for all the others on the "journey".  Very few times is "optional content" really optional as it usually introduces new mechanics or items or other things that effect the whole of the exisiting game.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am curious as to if those that enjoy the "end game" and not the journey would be drawn to a game where everyone starts at some predetermined state of heroic stature and all encounters are raid like from the very begining.  Basically a game that is all "end game".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MSD</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[V4n]

I am praying for AA. It is about the only thing I can see that will give this game long term viability.

[Izudin]

<P>Perhaps instead of a complicated AA system it would be sufficient to just let the players keep earning experience when they're at max level. On reaching the "next" level, the exp bar would empty again and the players could choose a very small improvement to their character (perhaps 1 stat point, or 10 resist points for a level, or 10 hp/power, you get the idea). Nothing huge, just a small bonus and your earned exp doesn't go to waste.</P> <P>As other posters here stated, I don't think an AA system can work without eventually becoming mandatory. And in that case I'd rather have none.</P>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lisasdarren wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR><BR>As to your last point, this game is not about building characters, if you think that then no wonder you are bored and need more progression. This game is about the world of Norrath, the people and places and stories within it. Leveling is a side effect of playing the game, if it becomes the goal then you will miss significant parts of the game, and since it is so easy to level you will get bored very quickly.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Not sure what game your playing, but if the game for me was all the artsy fartsy froo froo stuff I wouldnt be playing.  Power gaming is why I am here.   Not to read dialogue and gaze on sunsets and have in game marriages.  And who said I was bored? </P> <P> Leveling is not a side effect, it is the purpose.  MAking your character more powerful is the reason myself and many other gamers are here. The rest of that junk just puts a twist to it.   I do not tradeskill, I do not do grey quests with no reward, and I do not make alternates.  </P> <P>/shrugs  Your right we will never agree.   And yes, far too easy to level.   I think leveling time should be 30% of what it is now.   But that is persoanl preference.    You never have heard me say leveling is not way to easy in this game.  </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:16 PM</span>

[Shemyaza]

<font color="#ffff00">lisasdarren wrote: </font><span><span><font color="#ffff00"> He would basically become far overpowered and trivialise content designed for his level, that is breaking the game. No-one of a certain level should be trivialising the content designed for their level, it make the level progresion (which is this games indicator of relative power) become meaningless.</font> <font color="#ff0000">level progresion is already meaningless. it is so easy to reach 50 that levels shouldn't be a thing anyone in this game remotely worries over. it's interesting to note that in eqlive no-one talks of the "high level" game anymore; what it talked about is the "end game". levels are meaningless when everyone is at the cap. all that differentiates people then is the content they are experiencing. as i said before, this is where i hope splitpaw will shine in offering a real challange to people who are at the level cap already.</font> <font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">deadjester wrote: </font></span></span><font color="#ffff00"><strong>Diversity</strong></font><font color="#ffff00"> is the foundation of this system </font><font color="#ffff00"><strong>NOT</strong></font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffff00"> a AA pattern.</font>  <font color="#ff0000">as i see it, this is my major complaint, there is no diversity. we are all the same. if people could see their characters were different from all the others i'm sure a lot of complaints would die out.</font><font color="#ff0000"> </font><font color="#66ffcc"> <font color="#ffff00">lisasdarren wrote: </font></font></font><font color="#ffff00"><span> Basically we are never going to agree on this, you want a way to keep on getting more and more powerful as your character, I want the system to limit your power so that anyone who joins the game in a years time and levels up doesn't find themselves at a significant disadvantage. I don't believe that just continuing to play the game once you have reached the limit of the progression justifies an increase in power. </span></font><font color="#ffff00"><span>I don't object to more progression, I do object to a two tier game with the god likes with fabled equipment and a full set of AAs at one end and the average player so far away they can't imagine doing the things the former group are capable of.</span></font> <font color="#ffff00"><span> <font color="#ff0000">mudflation will take care of this. as the game gets older it wont be more difficult for new people to catch up, it will become easier for them. and why would you want to limit someone who - even tho they are playing the same game as you - are not playing the same game as you... if you get my drift. or are you saying that because YOU don't have the time/skill to be at the cutting edge of this game then those who are shouldn't be rewarded just because it makes you feel left out? one last thing, this forum seriously needs a better way to quote and edit posts. look at all the coloured crap i had to put above! i don't know much about forum softtware but i sure know this lithium system you insist on using is a piece of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] compared to even some free ones. </font></span></font><div></div>

[ugl]

<P>Ever notice that those who feign not to play the game to level, gain power, items, etc.  also seems to be the ones most concerned about other characters power and "keeping up with the jonses"?</P> <P>The claim that levels, power items, mean nothing to their playstyle, yet, they are constantly ready to scream if theyre not equal in power to gamers who do find these the primary reason for playing.</P> <P>It looks like a farce to me.  If you truly did not play these games to build your character, you would not be so worried that your character being inferiror to others.  That tells me that building your character is a primary concern for you, and that your not "left behind" those that have more time to play the game.   You wish to hinder them with artificial barriars like level caps, and raid loot dropping off solo mobs, etc.  Nay, I must assume building your character is yourprimary reason for playing, and the smokescreen you try to hide is that you like doing grey quests and smelling the roses.</P>

[Banag]

<P>I have read this thread with much interest, for I too played EQ1 and was quite excited when EQ2 came out. </P> <P>When I joined EQ1, I read many posts from long time players complaining about low level players "infesting" PoK...thanks to the teleporters...I read many posts criticizing the AA points system...I read many posts decrying the lack of content in favor of "candy" for those looking for "Uberness"...All had valid points, but what I found more was the posts by people who wanted these changes...many more posts than by the people who opposed them. Remember, SOE is a business and as a business wants to cater to it's audience. If the majority of feedback requests a certain thing, they will try to satisfy the majority...remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.</P> <P>Personally, I love quests...I love to explore all the little out-of-the-way areas, so that there is no "fog-of-war" on my maps...I love running across zones and the potential dangers that exist...but that is me, and I wouldn't want to force my style of play on anyone...my question is this...</P> <P>...for this new "Station Exchange" that allows the buying and selling of items for RL money wil be on certain servers...certain servers are dedicated to RP...why not make certain servers ( or bring new servers on-line) that cater to the players who want to "grind" out the levels...for people who want an AA type of system...for people who want to stand on the top of that Mountain with that Enchanted Weapon and say to everyone else..."I'm on top...try to knock me down"!!!</P> <P>The thing is, there is enough interest and dedication in EQ2, that there should be ways to accomadate and satisfy everyone.</P>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Shemyaza wrote:<font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000"> </font><font color="#66ffcc"><font color="#ffff00">lisasdarren wrote: </font></font></font><font color="#ffff00"><span> Basically we are never going to agree on this, you want a way to keep on getting more and more powerful as your character, I want the system to limit your power so that anyone who joins the game in a years time and levels up doesn't find themselves at a significant disadvantage. I don't believe that just continuing to play the game once you have reached the limit of the progression justifies an increase in power. </span></font><font color="#ffff00"><span>I don't object to more progression, I do object to a two tier game with the god likes with fabled equipment and a full set of AAs at one end and the average player so far away they can't imagine doing the things the former group are capable of.</span></font> <font color="#ffff00"><span> <font color="#ff0000">mudflation will take care of this. as the game gets older it wont be more difficult for new people to catch up, it will become easier for them. and why would you want to limit someone who - even tho they are playing the same game as you - are not playing the same game as you... if you get my drift. or are you saying that because YOU don't have the time/skill to be at the cutting edge of this game then those who are shouldn't be rewarded just because it makes you feel left out? </font></span></font></blockquote>Actually I am doing rather well for equipment, I have a full set of rare crafted armour, two rare crafted weapons and a rare crafted shield ready to use in a level when i turn 30, because I take my time I have the opportunities to get these things. If AAs come in, and they implement a fun way to get them, then I will probably get them, for the fun of doing so. I am not worried about feeling left out, I am concerned for the overal health of the game. The only reason it will get easier for people to catch up is if they break the game that is already in place, mudflation is caused by the breaking of the game, the aim of the developers should be to preserve the integrity of their game world and avoid it rather than rely on it to make the early game easy for newer subscribers.<font color="#ffff00"><span></span></font> <font color="#ffff00"><span></span></font> <blockquote><font color="#ffff00"><span><font color="#ff0000"> one last thing, this forum seriously needs a better way to quote and edit posts. look at all the coloured crap i had to put above! i don't know much about forum softtware but i sure know this lithium system you insist on using is a piece of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] compared to even some free ones. </font></span></font><div></div><hr></blockquote> If you want to quote multiple quotes the easiest way is to open a second copy of the thread in a different window and hit reply in there for each thread you want in turn, quote the original into your reply and then copy / paste it to you main reply in the first window / tab.</span><div></div>

[Zuuljin]

<FONT color=#66ff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV>Ermm, is this theory or in practice?...   Because, having played eq1 out the yin yang, I cannot think of even 1 mob that a level 60 with 300 aas could kill that a level 60 with no AAs couldnt handle either.    So, I do not think that it happened.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Are you [Removed for Content] kidding me?  Did you even play EQ1 past Luclin?  I'm guessing no since you use 60 as a cap, instead of 70 as it stands now.  You want 1 mob?  How bout I give you an entire expansion full of mobs, its called Omens of War.  Even PoP had it to a degree.  I knew many tanks lvl 65 with better gear than I, who could not tank BoT because they lacked tanking AA's.  You just about lost all credibility there...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, maybe they attuned raid mobs for people with AAs, but again, doesnt really matter, as the people raiding those mobs had the AAs, the same as it would be now.    So far, equipement means very little in this game.  level 50 mobs are easy and easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Yea, and what happens when the ONLY way to progress is past a raid mob, that you NEED 300+ AA's for.  If you dont have em, then you are stuck grinding till you reach that goal.  Casuals dont like to grind, and AA requires grinding.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>On another note, you say you want challenge, and note that raid mobs are super easy.  What exactly do you want AA's for then?  So you can take down easy raid mobs even easier?  AA's worked for EQ1 because you needed AA's to progress, because you could not kill stuff without them.  So you had a drive to get better so you could progress.  Theres nowhere to progress too in EQ2, so what would it even matter?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if it is so, how would a level 50 with 300 AAs soloing white/yellows, while a level 50 with 10  aas have to solo blues break gameplay?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Because sooner or later those blues will be tuned to be a challenge for the AA people, in which case the lvl 50 with 10 AA's will have to resort to killing greens, until those are tuned for AA people, untill they have nothing to kill at all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>What if they dont tune em?  Great, next expansion youll be so powerfull youll destroy 80% of the expansion in a weekend, take the rest of the week to kill the end boss, and come back here complaining about how easy things are and theres nothing to do.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It wouldnt, no more then a level 60 character is going to break gameplay for a level 50 character when the expansion comes out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by uglak on <SPAN class=date_text>07-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:19 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As a reply to your lvl 200 example from eariler.  Its different because with 200 levels, there has to be enough content for 200 levels worth of play.  Its all about content.  Notice how the AA thing wasnt a big deal till people ran out of content.  If there is enough content, you dont need AA's.  AA's are an excuse for lack of content.  </P> <P>Now imagine the level cap was lvl 200, but there was no content. Everything past lvl 50 you had to kill mobs in Soleseks eye.  There was nowhere else to go.  So for 150 more levels your in the exact same zone.  Fine you say, your a hardcore guy, you can take it.  So 3 years later a new expansion comes out, which is tuned to be after SE.  Well thats all fine and dandy for you.  But for the casuals, the idea of spending 2 hours a day, for the next 2 years to 'progress' through 1 single zone SUCKS and is not worth my time.   </P> <P>This is what AA's do.  You must grind AA's in the current content to move on to the new content.  Lets say AA's are tuned for 3 months of play until the new expansion hits.  3 months of play after you beat the current content, which means 3 months worth of grinding the same content.   3 months at 10 hours a day may be fine for you, but 15 months (thats a YEAR and 3 months) for someone at 2 hours a day SUCKS.  Thats not seeing new content, thats not progressing, thats boring grinding.   And thats using 1 expansion as an example, im sure its not hard to see how far people would begin to fall if that happened 2 times a year per expansion.</P> <P>That is the difference.  </P> <P>I like the idea of AA's, but you can only use so many, 8 or 10 or whatever.  That way the uber people might have more choices, but their powerband is still within controllable limits.  </P> <P>One last thing, you dont want AA's really, you want ENDLESS AA's.  If they added AA's with DoF, equal to about 10 levels, would you be happy?  No, because youd be done in 2 months and back to complaining.  But the problem is with endless powergain.<BR></P>

[Deadjest]

<P>AA in just not viable in this game.  Actualy AA was not very viable in EQL either, it was a stop gap measure that was easier to do then build new content.   I had a 68 SK with almost 500 AA.    AA was a interesting idea and maybe done with the best of intentions but the end result was a negitive one.</P> <P>You have to understand how a game works, eviroment vs char vs casual vs hardcore players.</P> <P>AA was a good idea that just didnt work.</P> <P>You have to understand that you have to constantly have hardcore raider content even though they are the minority players in the game and smallest player group to contribute money to it.</P> <P>Hardcore content is a steady goal that can be strived for constantly which is the majority of players constantly see through the free adverstisement of the Hardcore players.</P> <P>But you have to have a system that graphicaly is steady in its progression which the old AA did not do.   The old AA system basicly boiled down to as lag for the players and it took the place of content.    AA had the problem  where you needed it to do the hardcore raiding <STRONG>BUT</STRONG> later it bleed down to the every day content.</P> <P>The AA bleeding into every day nonraiding content is where the system broke.   Around PoP is when it really started to suffer and OoW pretty much sealed things.   Even the Avg zones for high lvl players, you needed lots of AA or face a heavy beating and groups not wanting you.</P> <P>And that is the issue, if you have a system that requires you to be so uber that it becomes a either or situation for raiding, it will make you to uber for normal highend content so then you have a situation where the avg highend content has to be raised so that the hardcore raiders don't plow right through it which has the added effect of frustrating the majority of players.</P> <P>Under EQs own posted figures, hardcore raiders only equalled 5% the paying player base.</P> <P>So you need to design a system that is based upon diversity and not AAing.</P> <P>The system already has the foundation for it and it would be logical if they followed it.   Instead of adding a flaw such as the AA system, they should let the chars branch again which leads to a higher diversity, and on top of that you can have a limited branching trait system which will further lead to even more diversity.</P> <P>But even that has a limit and it should, its only one of the answers in the Equation.</P> <P>A constant dynamic content is the other answer to the Equation.   The Content itself combined with some Diversity should be driving the players not grinding under a flawed system which basicly takes place of the constant flow of more content.</P> <P>Part of the problem is that its easier to beat content then it is to make it.   So you have a catch 22 going on where you have some highend players crying like a crack head going through the DTs and the majority of the players who want casualy raid but dont have the time to do hardcore raiding being frustrated by a system such as the AA that bleed into everyday highend zones.</P> <P>So is somthing I hope Sony really thinks about.</P> <P>I read Mooreguards post and found it disturbing in what and how he said a few things.   There is no logical reason to defend a system that is not used here unless they are looking at or already building it for this game.   His writing patterns gives me some concern as they seemed some what illogical so I have much to think about.   Normaly I am really good at predicting what will happen in a game by up to 2 and somtimes 3 yrs by reading the patterns but the game is so fresh that and the compitition so harsh now in gaming that its possible if not probable that they may get jumpy and try things that would not normaly go with this type of game which I have much concern about if I am to put a long term interst in it.</P> <P>This revamp and major expansion coming out will be of major intrest to me for it will set many things in motion good or bad for a time to come.</P> <P>I hope they choose the correct choice and avoid the Flawed AA system of the past and come up with somthing fresh that will be a constant graphical climb to balance casual and highend players.</P>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zuuljin wrote:<BR><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV>Ermm, is this theory or in practice?...   Because, having played eq1 out the yin yang, I cannot think of even 1 mob that a level 60 with 300 aas could kill that a level 60 with no AAs couldnt handle either.    So, I do not think that it happened.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Are you [Removed for Content] kidding me?  Did you even play EQ1 past Luclin?  I'm guessing no since you use 60 as a cap, instead of 70 as it stands now.  You want 1 mob?  How bout I give you an entire expansion full of mobs, its called Omens of War.  Even PoP had it to a degree.  I knew many tanks lvl 65 with better gear than I, who could not tank BoT because they lacked tanking AA's.  You just about lost all credibility there...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played eq1 from launch through planes of power, PoT enabled.  I did not play after pop however.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you could not tank that boss mob in BoT (cant remember name, started with a A though), it it because u sucked, it had nothing to do with AAs...  I could tell you the strategy for it that made it easy.  But, it had nothing to do with how many AAs you had.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry if you dont have time to play, and lack the skill to raid things in pop.  But, you shouldnt be trying to hold the rest of us back.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lisasdarren wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually I am doing rather well for equipment, I have a full set of rare crafted armour, two rare crafted weapons and a rare crafted shield ready to use in a level when i turn 30, </SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ermm, I think this may shed some light on why your not do not want AAs....</DIV> <DIV>Sorry, alot of us were level 30 in december...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many hours do you play a week?</DIV>

[Zuuljin]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played eq1 from launch through planes of power, PoT enabled.  I did not play after pop however.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you could not tank that boss mob in BoT (cant remember name, started with a A though), it it because u sucked, it had nothing to do with AAs...  I could tell you the strategy for it that made it easy.  But, it had nothing to do with how many AAs you had.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry if you dont have time to play, and lack the skill to raid things in pop.  But, you shouldnt be trying to hold the rest of us back.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well since you never made it past PoP, I guess I can forgive your point of view, because you never made it to the breaking point that was OoW.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I still cannot fathom how you can claim that someone with 0 AA's could take on any mob PoP had to offer.  Raid mobs had 'tricks' to them, but there is no way someone with 0 AA's could toe to to Auliffe and survive without one mean CH chain.  Sure you could [Removed for Content] him, but that example completely misses the entire point of this argument, your grasping at staws now.   I wasnt even talking about raid mobs though.  I meant just the normal giants in the zone.  It was VERY hard for 0 AA people to tank the normal giants.  Kriegers would tear apart anyone without them.  Let alone the names on each of the wings, unless you brought in a mini raid.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since you said you made it to PoT, and mention that you play alot, i will assume you were decked out in VT gear going into zones such as BoT.  Well guess what, that makes things quite a bit easier.  Your missing the point that casuals for the most part did NOT have previous raid gear, due to time restraints, and.... you guessed it, not enough AA's!  So tanking things without your uber gear AND no AA's was downright impossible for the average Joe.  Elementals went even furthur.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your still going to claim that any mob in the game could tanked by a 0 AA person then your view is VERY skewed out of reality.</DIV></DIV>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:27 PM</span>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>You don't need to go the same path as OoW...  All you need is to give people some small upgrades.  Yes it is possible.  Stats..  Spells like you get every 10 levels.. Ect ect (the spell thing would be best since its tiered and you would basicly lose it after 10 levels since you will get somethign better</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 PM</span>

[Errie_Tholluxe]

<span> <blockquote><blockquote><span> </span> <div></div> <hr></blockquote><div>Sorry, alot of us were level 30 in december...</div> <div> </div> <div>How many hours do you play a week?</div><hr></blockquote>Wow you all really do like the grind dont ya? I started Nov 8th, first day available and play almost everyday for 4-5 hours and some good 10 hour sessions, and even now, ten toons later only have ONE over 43, although the rest are catching up. Heck by Dec I barely had a 25, there was just to much to do and explore....to many different classes and different playstyles to master. So far I have played one of everything to 20 and kept the 10 i liked most, now I am getting around to exploring my way up. I've had access to Lavastorm and havent even been there yet, because I still have so much ELSE to see. If playing one toon to the top of the game and then complaining for several months is your style do you think mmoRPG's are your game? </span><div></div>

[Nazo]

<P>To those people who claim AAs have anything to do with making a character Unique - NO WAY</P> <P>All it did was to carry your characters "power" to the next stage. Everyone simply did same AAs that would make their chars more powerfull with about 6 months more played time on their characters :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>AAs as they were implemented in EQ in no way customized your char. </P>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>uglak wrote: <blockquote> <hr> lisasdarren wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> </blockquote>Actually I am doing rather well for equipment, I have a full set of rare crafted armour, two rare crafted weapons and a rare crafted shield ready to use in a level when i turn 30, </span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Ermm, I think this may shed some light on why your not do not want AAs....</div> <div>Sorry, alot of us were level 30 in december...</div> <div> </div> <div>How many hours do you play a week?</div><hr></blockquote>About 40-50 currently, the reason I am still only level 30 is because I choose to see all the content there is in the game, I know my way around continents and dungeons on both sides of the world, I know where nearly every location and mob type is in all those zones too. I don't want to miss any of the content that is in this game by rushing past it, so I am deliberatly chosing not too. And I have said I am quite happy to see AAs in the game, I just don't want the gap between Mr Average and Mr Hardcore to become so large that it essentially means you have to have two different games within EQ2 to cater to the differences. </span><div></div>

[Dro]

<P>If AA's are added then I think they should be tied to quests - so that it better fits in to the style of EQ2.</P> <P>Also I'd like to see mutually exclusive AAs. Make the character have to choose from different quest options so they can't get every AA but have to choose - and this would allow greater variation amongst characters.</P> <P> </P>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Droo2 wrote:<p>If AA's are added then I think they should be tied to quests - so that it better fits in to the style of EQ2.</p><hr></blockquote>While I really would want to see them as quests, as I enjoy questing, I think they should ALSO be available to buy with XP, so that all the grinders can't come and whine about having to actually do the Quests in EverQuest</span><div></div>

[aislynn00]

<P>I, for one, think that an alternate advancement option should have been made available the day the game went live, since it would have offered a way of progressing past 50th to those of us who aren't full-time raiders yet have reached the level cap.</P> <P>Do I think AA abilities should be worthwhile and add noteworthy new capabilities or significant enhancements to existing abilities?  I most certainly do.</P> <P>Do I think there should be content available to challenge players who have amassed a great deal of high-end gear and/or a lot of AA abilities?  Again, I definitely do.</P> <P>If you want to be casual and group and quest with other casual players, more power to you.  Yet if I want to devote myself to developing my character and take on challenges which would be utterly insurmountable to the casual player without AA's and only commonly available items, then that should be <EM>my</EM> prerogative.  Who are you to tell me that, just because you don't want to invest time and effort into your character, nobody else should be rewarded for doing so?</P> <P>I played EQ1 for two and a half years, reaching 70th level and more than 700 AA points with my paladin.  Together with my friends, I was among the first on my server to reach Kod'Taz back when other paladins were complaining about the inability of knights to tank GoD mobs like Kyv Heartstriker Jhiru.  I perfected my skills, earned the loot, and achieved the AA abilities it took to reach my goals, and the game rewarded me.  Right now, EQ2 does not, and that, I say, is an untenable status quo.</P> <P></P> <HR> Khayne Darkmere<BR>Leader of Elysian Dawn<BR>Lucan D'Lere <P> </P>

[aislynn00]

<P>Oh, and just for the record, I thought that the PoP expansion was great, especially the introduction of challenging mobs and progression.</P> <P>As for Shadows of Luclin, the mobs may have sported too much AC, but I believe the expansion as a whole had the greatest atmosphere of any prior to GoD.</P> <P></P> <HR> Khayne Darkmere<BR>Leader of Elysian Dawn<BR>Lucan D'Lere<BR><p>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <span class=date_text>07-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 AM</span>

[BigDa]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyfairer wrote:<BR> <DIV>I played EQ Live from beta.  I saw a well developed and expansive game world that had a rather rounded backstory slowly fall apart over time as each new expansion was released with less and less tie in to the original world and more "candy" to satisfy certain groups.  The death knell was probably PoP and its teleporters.  Given that new way to travel huge areas of the game world were merely skipped over by most and the thrill of exploration and risk of overland travel was lost. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You are writing your opinions as if they are facts, but they're not. Even though you can find people who will agree with your points, that doesn't transform them into absolutes. This thread illustrates that plenty of other people feel that AAs and the Planes of Power expansion added great things to EverQuest. Neither group is right or wrong; it's simply how they feel.</DIV> <DIV>... <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yes, that's true, BUT, some of the things now being done to EQ2 are the things SOE (in various guises) said they wanted to move away from and for good reason.  Cash drops, contested encounters, PvP, selling gear for RL money, 'easy' expansion packs, etc.  All these things were implied to be "bad" and that the "new generation" of role-playing would not have them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The OP mentions specifics and, of course, everyone has their specific, pet features that they love or loathe, but telling us we're just "being nostalgic" is not addressing the main issue:  SOE is, to a growing extent, betraying it's core 'beliefs' for EQ2.  It's a fantastic game, currently - anyone who says it's a 'bad' game is full of it - but recent developments worry us 'old-timers' who have seen the effect of cash drops, contested encounters, etc., before.  It's not nostalgia to say EQ1 was ruined for us by certain things - it's experience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think a lot of us are justifiably worried about the future of the game when SOE seem to be going backward in many ways.</DIV>

[lisasdarr]

I see a world, a world without content, a world without quests, a world without stories, a world without limits, a world where mortals can become more powerful than gods, a world where the route to power has no ending, a world filled with creatures that exist simply to die, to give up their XP and their treasure, but with no reason for them being there given. I see a world populated with beings of such power that an army of godslayers is required to defeat them, of weapons so powerful they could destroy entire cities, spells that can level mountains. A world were traveling across continents can be achieved in seconds, where the very fabric of reality shudders at the passing of the powerful, were armies can be single handedly defeated by a single champion. I see a world that will make powergamers happy, a world in a game that doesn't imply questing is its very core, a world where casual gamers are less than peons. <div></div>

[aislynn00]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> lisasdarren wrote:<BR>I see a world, a world without content, a world without quests, a world without stories, a world without limits, a world where mortals can become more powerful than gods, a world where the route to power has no ending, a world filled with creatures that exist simply to die, to give up their XP and their treasure, but with no reason for them being there given.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Most of us who crave more challenging content and worthwhile rewards for greater time investment in the game (e.g., AA abilities) also enjoy diverse and exciting content, quests, and stories, and of course, we want play balance to be maintained.</P> <P>Yet play balance, mind you, doesn't imply that everyone should be able to accomplish the same no matter their individual circumstances.  Rather, it means that, if all other parameters are the same, then an equal investment of time, effort, and skill should result in an equal reward, irrespective of sub-class.  In other words, someone who invests 30 hours a week playing one character should have a stronger character than a person who merely spends merely 10 hours a week playing an equivalent character with equivalent aptitude, and thus, should be able to weather challenges that the more casually played character couldn't.</P> <P>If you worked 10 hours and I worked 30 in the same position, would you be paid the same I would be?  Would you be able to buy the same with your salary?  Would it be fair if you were?  No, I didn't think so.</P> <P></P> <HR> Khayne Darkmere<BR>Leader of Elysian Dawn<BR>Lucan D'Lere <P> </P><p>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <span class=date_text>07-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:26 AM</span>

[aislynn00]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lisasdarren wrote:<BR>were armies can be single handedly defeated by a single champion.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Once you reach 50th (assuming you haven't done so already), try zoning into Bloodskull Valley, an epic(x4) raid zone off the Commonlands.  Now proceed to decimate the host facing you there.  </P> <P>My point: You are already able to slay a small army without AA abilities, uber gear, or the like.</P> <DIV> <HR> Khayne Darkmere</DIV> <DIV>Leader of Elysian Dawn</DIV> <DIV>Lucan D'Lere</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[lisasdarr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>aislynn00 wrote: <blockquote> </blockquote>In other words, someone who invests 30 hours a week playing one character should have a stronger character than a person who merely spends merely 10 hours a week playing an equivalent character with equivalent aptitude, and thus, should be able to weather challenges that the more casually played character couldn't. <p>If you worked 10 hours and I worked 30 in the same position, would you be paid the same I would be?  Would you be able to buy the same with your salary?  Would it be fair if you were?  No, I didn't think so.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Someone who plays 30 hours should have a more powerful character because they are higher level. The point is once you reach the top you have to stop, leveling is more akin to getting promoted at work than earning more cash, the person who works harder, get promoted sooner, but eventually someone who works slower still can reach the same top ranking position. </p> <p>However when you reach the top you are there, no further to go. But all those of you who are after further progression are unwilling to accept the fact that you can reach the top and have no further to go. Why can't you realise that when you hit the level cap you stop advancing, so if regular advancement is important you need to slow down the leveling process in the first place. There can and should be a limit to progression in a game if it is to be fair and balanced, unlimited progression leads to a broken game. </p> </span><p>Message Edited by lisasdarren on <span class=date_text>07-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:12 PM</span>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zuuljin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well since you never made it past PoP, I guess I can forgive your point of view, because you never made it to the breaking point that was OoW.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I still cannot fathom how you can claim that someone with 0 AA's could take on any mob PoP had to offer.  Raid mobs had 'tricks' to them, but there is no way someone with 0 AA's could toe to to Auliffe and survive without one mean CH chain.  Sure you could [Removed for Content] him, but that example completely misses the entire point of this argument, your grasping at staws now.   I wasnt even talking about raid mobs though.  I meant just the normal giants in the zone.  It was VERY hard for 0 AA people to tank the normal giants.  Kriegers would tear apart anyone without them.  Let alone the names on each of the wings, unless you brought in a mini raid.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since you said you made it to PoT, and mention that you play alot, i will assume you were decked out in VT gear going into zones such as BoT.  Well guess what, that makes things quite a bit easier.  Your missing the point that casuals for the most part did NOT have previous raid gear, due to time restraints, and.... you guessed it, not enough AA's!  So tanking things without your uber gear AND no AA's was downright impossible for the average Joe.  Elementals went even furthur.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your still going to claim that any mob in the game could tanked by a 0 AA person then your view is VERY skewed out of reality.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Look man, my wifes SK smoked giants in that zone, not even a warrior...  Her and my shaman duoed the crap.  The boss in BoT was weak.  Maybe general riparse or RZTW required beefy warrior with lots of AAs, but BoT was a weak zone overall, with a weak boss.</P> <P> </P> <P>I still do not understand what any of that has to do with AAs in eq2 though.  Cause, it didnt even have anything to do with AAS in eq1.  If you were getting beat up by normal giants and mini bosses in BOT, I am going to have to assume your gear stunk and your playing ability/healer stunk.    AAs wouldnt have helped you.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>07-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:44 AM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>AA in the form that they were in, in EQL have no place here and it was very flawed there.</P> <P>It causes content lag for the players.</P> <P>The main problem is if you need AA to be uber enough for Highend Raid content, you become so uber that you blow through standard non raid Highend Content and it gets worse as it roles down hill.</P> <P>Then you have the Highend Raiders crying like a crack head going through through the DTs and that inturn makes Sony make the basic content harder to keep up with the players and then once again you are hurting the majority of the player base who is a casual player or mix of casual and steady raiding but not hard raiding.</P> <P>If you graph it out the old AA did not go up in a steady progession, but made constant little leaps and just bogged down the majority of the paying customers.</P> <P>And if you don't have that highend AA but have still worked the lvls and fought hard you find yourself constantly hitting these walls and being locked out of content and players not wanting you in their groups cause of it.</P> <P>The old AA just does not have a place here and does not fit in with this system.   The bleed effect it has on non raid content is a game breaker.  PoP was the begaining of it and OoW pretty much showed it and sealed it.</P> <P>You need more dynamic content to challange the players and stick with the ideas that are already in effect in EQ2.</P> <P>Diversity, when players hit each new expanion of lvls, let them branch onces again.   And let traits be more effective, have some trait trees where you can go different routes and they reconnect at certain points.    Its a form of AA but not so game breaking <STRONG>AND</STRONG> it fits in with this game.</P> <P>I read Mooreguards post and I found it disturbing somewhat, for one it really has no place here and the writing patterns seem not so much to speak of defending what had happend in another game which has no place here but if you read between the lines seems to be speaking of what may be to come here and prepairing the way.</P> <P>I hope they continue as is with a growth system aimed at how this game works and not hwo the old game works.</P> <P>Highend raiders by EQs own figures is only 5% of the paying customer base, I hope they don't break the other 95% to appease them.  But work on a system which is in the middle and that contrasts with this game not the old EQ which was fun for a while but later turned more into a second but lifeless job.</P> <P> </P>

[Vellek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lisasdarren wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>In other words, someone who invests 30 hours a week playing one character should have a stronger character than a person who merely spends merely 10 hours a week playing an equivalent character with equivalent aptitude, and thus, should be able to weather challenges that the more casually played character couldn't. <P>If you worked 10 hours and I worked 30 in the same position, would you be paid the same I would be?  Would you be able to buy the same with your salary?  Would it be fair if you were?  No, I didn't think so.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Someone who plays 30 hours should have a more powerful character because they are higher level. The point is once you reach the top you have to stop, leveling is more akin to getting promoted at work than earning more cash, the person who works harder, get promoted sooner, but eventually someone who works slower still can reach the same top ranking position.<BR></P> <P>However when you reach the top you are there, no further to go. But all those of you who are after further progression are unwilling to accept the fact that you can reach the top and have no further to go. Why can't you realise that when you hit the level cap you stop advancing, so if regular advancement is important you need to slow down the leveling process in the first place. There can and should be a limit to progression in a game if it is to be fair and balanced, unlimited progression leads to a broken game.<BR></P></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by lisasdarren on <SPAN class=date_text>07-04-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:12 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Tyron, I know where you are coming from and sympathize with you and others like you who like to experience every aspect of this game. I like to experience it too, but my main goal is to develop my character. I have not skipped content on my way to 50. I have done hundreds of quests. I have completed nearly every access quest in this game and have completed every heritage quest but the lightstone. I have mapped out every continent and dungeon completely. I have helped free the froglok race from captivity. I am not trying to brag, but I have been 50 for several months. Unless I turned off my experience bar there is no possible way I wouldnt have been 50 by now just by completing all those quests.</P> <P>This isnt a bash on you at all. I must say I agree with you on many points you have been making. I do like making myself into a hero of sorts, but I quit EQL after POP because I felt that after killing the gods what else is there? Although I loved the expansion it seemed like the end. What else can come to a world for raiders to kill after they kill the gods? Maybe the story behind GoD and OoW was a good one, but I just felt like my journey was over.</P> <P>I do personally want AAs, but I dont want them to be so easy to obtain. I think leveling in this game is way too easy. I could accept that there is nowhere to go after you "get to the top" if it wasnt so easy to get there. It took me about eight months to get my character to max level in FFXI. The grind was hard and monotonous at times, but that was mainly because we fought the same mobs (crabs) from level five to level 65. It took me less than two months to get to 50 in EQ2. Look how many players are level 50 now. On our server when I do a /who all <level> I usually see from 15-30 players on each level except level 50 where there are always hundreds online at any given time of the day. That doesnt mean they are all hardcore gamers, that just means reaching level 50 is relatively easy to accomplish in this game.</P> <P>If leveling was much more difficult than it is now I would have no problem if the devs decided against adding AAs. If so many people havent already reached the top it would make perfect sense.</P> <P>By the way, here is a piece of an interview with Moorgard cut and pasted from EQ2 Vault in case you havent seen it yet:</P><B><FONT color=#fdf1be>Sassee:</FONT></B> A lot of players feel that some sort of AA (alternate advancement) in EQII for the end game would prove beneficial after reaching the level cap and help with giving players more character. Do you think that anything of that sort might be added to the game in the future?<BR> <B><FONT color=#fdf1be>Steve "Moorgard" Danuser:</FONT></B> Introducing a type of alternative advancement path is definitely something we're talking about for the future. We're discussing different ideas for how one might work, and we would want it to be tied into the lore of the game rather than just a system tacked on for the sake of having it.<BR><BR>The thing many players like about the AA system in EQ is that it gives you the opportunity to make choices and advance certain aspects of your character at your own pace. That's certainly a cool concept, and we want to bring additional forms of character diversity to the game going forward.<BR><BR>

[lisasdarr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Vellek wrote:<p>Tyron, I know where you are coming from and sympathize with you and others like you who like to experience every aspect of this game. I like to experience it too, but my main goal is to develop my character. I have not skipped content on my way to 50. I have done hundreds of quests. I have completed nearly every access quest in this game and have completed every heritage quest but the lightstone. I have mapped out every continent and dungeon completely. I have helped free the froglok race from captivity. I am not trying to brag, but I have been 50 for several months. Unless I turned off my experience bar there is no possible way I wouldnt have been 50 by now just by completing all those quests.</p><hr></blockquote>The thing is, I have turned off experience because I realised as soon as I got off the Isle and saw that half the newbie yards were grey to me, that I was leveling too fast. I am level 29 and have done well over 600 quests already, even with XP off I have found parts of some dungeons grey before I manage to get to them. If I had XP on then I would never have been able to see anywhere near as much of these areas.I am into character development, but instead of worrying when the next level is coming from I want my character to be as good as possible every step of the way, I have spent much time trying to get great equipment ever since my mid-teens, making sure all my spells are upgraded etc. because I too like to stand out from the crowd.<blockquote><hr><p>And Vellek wrote:</p><p>I do personally want AAs, but I dont want them to be so easy to obtain. I think leveling in this game is way too easy. I could accept that there is nowhere to go after you "get to the top" if it wasnt so easy to get there. Look how many players are level 50 now. That doesnt mean they are all hardcore gamers, that just means reaching level 50 is relatively easy to accomplish in this game.</p><hr></blockquote><p>Leveling is far too easy, but that isn't the issue here, I am not against them adding something for those who are levelling fast to work on, and so some sort of AA system is a good idea. I just don't want to see a system for AAs that either:</p></span><ul><li><span>Only the really hardcore can manage to achieve, and then only through mindlessly grinding masses of XP</span></li><li><span>The abilities granted are so powerful that it makes the gap between the haves and the have-nots too great</span></li></ul><span><p>I'd like to see an AA system that allows interesting abilities, that will make your character slightly better than someone without them (see my previous post for a few ideas), but a system that allows multiple paths to achieving them. A rough idea of the sort of implementation that I would like to see is listed below:</p><p>At every 10th level after 20 you get another Hallmark quest (much like the ones to unlock your class and sub-class), upon completion you gain access to the AAs for that level.Next you go to visit the AA trainer for your class, in the dialogue you get several options:</p></span><ul><li>I would like to use my experiences to gain new skills (XP now converts to AAs not levels) Only if XP is leveling</li><li><span>I would like to stop using my experiences to gain new skills (XP stops converting to AAs not levels) Only if XP is AAing</span></li><li>I would like to do some extra training tasks for you (Quests to gain AAs)</li><li>I would like to learn one of the skills available to me (Learn an AA with saved points)</li></ul><span></span><span><p>Make the quests get harder with level and make the XP needed to get an AA a relative amount compared to your next level.</p><p>As well as the idea I posted before some other ideas could be AAs that allow you to gain in one area and lose in another:</p></span><span><p>+3% power & -3% health+3 Defence & -2 Spell avoidance+5% spell damage & -3% poweret cetera</p></span><span></span><span>These would all allow growth and customisation without making the gap between those who have AAs and those who don't to great.As an aside, whatever methods they choose to use to implement AAs I will be among the haves, same as I currently am as far as equipment and the like. I am not arguing this because I feel I am going to be left out, I just feel that any system implemented needs to be fair to everyone, not just beneficial to me.</span><span></span><div></div>

[Greyfair]

<DIV>Well, I first want to commend everyone so far on keeping this thread relatively flame-free.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As before my main concern, echoed by others, is not the addition of new content in and of itself, but rather content that fundamentally changes the game at "all" levels and fractures the player base.  Many people play MMORPGs over single player games in which the goals (character development, challenging encounters, etc) are the same merely for the social interaction aspects.  Many others, for some reason, play MMORPGs as if they were single player games decrying all but the most neccessary interaction to complete their goals.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a goal of a MMORPG is to foster an vibrant community then avoiding actions that fracture the player base, that cause such a gap to exist between higher and lower levels, can become paramount.  In EQ2 one thing that still "almost" forces interaction between all levels if the fact that their are only two main cities.  If and when content is added introducing a city or cities only accessible by higher levels or those equipped or AA'd a certain way then the first cracks in the social mortar will appear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the end one of the main questions everyone who plays games such as EQ2 must answer is one I have asked before;</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How long do you expect to play the same character in an MMORPG?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suppose it boils down to what one expects from a MMORPG.  If you originally forsee yourself playing a character for years and then suddenly find you have reached the end game far earlier that you had expected then in order to satisfy that first mindset of long term play you start to ask for more content.  If, however, you originally see yourself and taking a character through the world as it exists, no matter what the time involved is, then upon reaching the end game you have met your original goals and can start a new character or aspect of the game or move on to another game.  So perhaps one way to explain the different views on the end game is really based on a person's original vision of how long he/she forsees their involvment in a game world?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MSD  </DIV>

[Rothgard-san]

<DIV>Absolutely brilliant post, Moorgard. You've just pointed out the fundamental basis for fallacious idealist disagreements.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't need to express my opinion - my opinion is my own, and I'm content with it, just as everyone else is.</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<DIV>Unfortunatly EQL History does not really back Moorguards post on the logical lvl, just on the point of view lvl.   Cause and effect is plain to see after its all done and over with.   Hindsight truly has a power all its own in retrospect for dealing with the future.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shemyaza]

it's going to be an interesting time around expansion 2 for eq2 (assuming it gets that far =) ) when those "raid level mobs" of today are the greenie's of tomorrow. the way eq2 is fundamentaly built means anything green is pretty much [Removed for Content]. with this tied to the limit on raid sizes (and therefore mobs tuned to a specific size) means that all those contested mobs of today will be one grouped or even duoable tomorrow (a very far off tomorrow, i admit). unless further expansions add lots of raid content ( and i mean <i>lots</i>) to tie up the raiders time any new and upcoming guilds will have a helluva time trying to find contested mobs of a given level. many people have mention that content is king in this thread. that's 100% true. if you give people enough fun stuff to keep them occupied with, they will be more inclined to cut some slack on other issues. atm, eq2 probably has more content that eqlive did until its 3rd year. if they really do plan on having 200 levels they will need to bring as much new content into the game as there is now with each (or perhaps) every other expansion which increases the max level. anyone think soe is up to that challange? <div></div>

[Syndic]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Greyfairer wrote: <div>I played EQ Live from beta.  I saw a well developed and expansive game world that had a rather rounded backstory slowly fall apart over time as each new expansion was released with less and less tie in to the original world and more "candy" to satisfy certain groups.  The death knell was probably PoP and its teleporters.  Given that new way to travel huge areas of the game world were merely skipped over by most and the thrill of exploration and risk of overland travel was lost. <hr> </div></blockquote> <div>You are writing your opinions as if they are facts, but they're not. Even though you can find people who will agree with your points, that doesn't transform them into absolutes. This thread illustrates that plenty of other people feel that AAs and the Planes of Power expansion added great things to EverQuest. Neither group is right or wrong; it's simply how they feel.</div> <div> </div> <div>Memory is selective. It is a common practice among humans to look back on events in the past and remember only certain things. As MMO gamers, we look back fondly on the early days of EQ and pick out the things we loved about it. If we do envision the unpleasant parts, most of us find some way to turn even those into a funny story. That's just something people do.</div> <div> </div> <div>As an older generation of gamers, we naturally hope to recapture the early sense of excitement in new games, even if we can't quantify exactly what those feelings are. We instinctively seek out euphoria. The trouble is, the harder you look for it, the more likely you are to convince yourself that you can't find it.</div> <div> </div> <div>When PoP was released, there was abundant praise for the changes it brought to EverQuest. Many lauded the sense of progression, the new focus, the benefits of the Plane of Knowledge. Over time criticisms arose because it brought fundamental changes to the game, perhaps moreso than any expansion up to that point. And whenever we face change, part of us instincitvely begins saying things such as "But I liked it better back when..."</div> <div> </div> <div>It's what we as humans do.</div> <div> </div> <div>Before our game launched, I saw post after post from EQ players excitely hoping EQ2 would let them recapture the feeling of the early days of EverQuest. But that's like saying to yourself "Gosh, I hope my next girlfriend is as great as my first one was." Relationships don't work that way... even relationships with MMOs.</div> <div> </div> <div>And so you see posts now from people who tried EQ2 and say things like "It doesn't have the same feeling. They didn't recapture the magic of EQ." I have to think one of two things: either human nature is such that we unwittingly build up our expectations so high that nothing can meet them, or I and other team members didn't do a very good job of relaying how our game was going to be unique.</div> <div> </div> <div>Maybe it's both. All of us have discussed movies with friends. A common question is whether the new movie is as good as another movie. But what does "good" mean? What did you like about the first movie? What did you dislike about it? Would you really want to sit through the first movie over and over, or would you rather see something new and different?</div> <div> </div> <div>I can honestly tell you that I love playing EQ2. It's the game I want to play, despite the fact that I've bought and tried other MMOs, both before we've launched and after.</div> <div> </div> <div>You could claim that this statement is biased because I'm on the SOE payroll, but that's not why. It's biased because I saw this game grow from an engine with a few playable zones into a fully populated world filled with the joy and personalities of people I got to know on a personal basis. When I enter a cool-looking zone, I know who made it look that way. When I laugh out loud at a funny quest, I know who wrote it. As features come into the game, I know who implemented them and why they did it the way they did.</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm biased because this is the first computer game I helped ship, and I watched it grow up to become something I'm very proud of. And because I helped it grow, even if not every facet of the game is what I would have chosen, I can appreciate it for what it is. Though the process of making games is easy to become cynical about, I'm more overwhelmed than ever by the magic that results from the hard work and dedication of people who care about what they're doing.</div> <div> </div> <div>If you approach anything--games, movies, relationships, life--with a set of expectations as to how it should make you feel, you also bring with you the means to make yourself disappointed. But if you go into it with an open mind and let it become whatever it is destined to become, you just might find things you didn't expect, and a new sense of enjoyment you never saw coming.</div> <div> </div> <div>Really, that's how many of us experienced the original EverQuest, and maybe that's the key to how you can let a game reveal its own unique magic.</div><hr></blockquote>I think you hit the nail right on the head there.  Nothing will ever replace EQ1 for me, but I am enjoying the differences in EQ2.  Although there are things I may not agree with in EQ2, I understand why they were done and try as hard as I might not to dwell on them. OK except maybe for that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] pit champion in splitpaw that is almost impossible for melee to kill. (and I only say almost becuase I know there are a few elites out there who have managed it)</span><div></div>

[Potentater]

<P>I believe that the real success of EQ1 was the story threading.  In each "phase" of the game (release, RoK, and SoV) there was a distinct storyline intertwined within the history/present of the entire world. It was a storyline easily accessible to any level.  There were factions that actually meant something. Even the newest players could jump right in, see the conflicting sides and then fight how they see fit for their character. The best part of all, that storyline/factioning meant something everywhere.  In Kunark you had the different dragons, frogloks, the outpost, Firona Vie etc.  In SoV you had the giants, dwarves, dragons and so on--the minute you stepped into a Kunark or Velious zone, you were involved.</P> <P> </P> <P>EQ2 is promising with the adventure packs, but there is a disjoint in how these frame into the big picture.  There is no general lore thread that is easily accessible to any player. I've played since the beginning and have yet to find the major storylines. Everything is so mixed and switched, it has become very disorganized.  A player should never have to go digging on spoiler sites to get the overall picture of what's going on, and who the major players are and how they came to be. </P> <P>For me, what it boils down to is immersion.  EQ1 had plenty of it, and 2 has very little.  I think alot of it has to do with the players.  Running around in EQ1, no one ever talked about tier blabbity blah, or nodes and such.  It was all about adventuring to obtain your treasure, not purchasing it on the instant market.  The group dynamic wasn't based around dps or some other stat talk that obliterates any immersion, it was about the diad itself and how the people got along.  If the group felt good and went at a good pace, that was that. The minute it became a statistical science for the player, the game was over.</P>

[Culann Heartsto]

Seeing loads of arguments for..and against.. I'm personally for it.  I keep thinking in the back of my head..that even as a semi-casual-semi-powergamer type...when you do want to go out and experience the content, and you do want to level and see new places and get new things..there's only a finite limit you can grow vertically (levelling) before you hit a hard cap (as we have now - 50) before your growth takes on a horizontal aspect..the acquisition of better gear, arts, spells and items to increase your character's already hard capped potential. AAs would offer diversity IMO..no questions in my perspective on that.  It would also give characters a new avenue of horizontal growth through the diversification of the character through the choices made in the AA structure. Really..if a player levels to 50, gets the best gear, best arts..what is left for them to acquire?  Should they simply throw away that time investment and start over?  Or should they just continue to raid repeatedly, killing the same mobs they have time and time again? These are, of course, rhetorical questions, and everyone's answers will be different.  I think you can guage my response based on the first 2 paragraphs however.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>what is the big deal about AA? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one forces people to AA. Its an individual choice. Also, no one forces people to raid. Raiders and Casuals have totally different styles of play, IMO, and go after totally different objectives. My guild is extremely hardcore in raiding. We raid about 4 to 5 times a day on most occasions, and I NEVER see other players in those zones for casual play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact, the zones that raiders inhabit are just that, for raiders. We stick to our little instances and zones and we dont normally interact with Casuals, other than passing them on the way to instances or raid mob spwns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So please explain to me how our raiding diminishes you casual play? in WHAT way? raiders and casuals dont even interact, other than for purchases and whatnot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, why am I hearing complaints about our gear? why should casual players even have fabled gear? Fabled means that you camped a raid mob for hours, got 24 players, maybe even wiped a couple of times (these new raid mobs are nasty) and finally took it down, where it dropped MAYBE 2 fabled pieces.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This gear issue reeks of jealousy. So people are saying if my guild killed a dragon and got some nice gear, and you killed a PF giant we should have the SAME chance to get fabled and mythical gear? That is absurd. What would be the point of it being fabled then?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Daga]

<DIV>I dont' see why AA couldn't work.  Make it a system of checks and balances.  You cannot have it all.  And only certain things can be added.  AA could be a system of choices.  Realize I never played in EQLive's endgame but have followed it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For instance, with a wizard, you could make it so that that could add to elemental damage fire.  Catch?  You lose damage on Ice.  Or, a warrior could specialize on sword, making damage with other weapons nto as good.  A system like this > COULD < work, if tested and implemented properly.  But I agree, if you make it broad, liek + Damage to all damage, then a level 50 with AA and without, it wil ltrivialize content.</DIV>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div>what is the big deal about AA? </div> <div> </div> <div>No one forces people to AA. Its an individual choice. Also, no one forces people to raid. Raiders and Casuals have totally different styles of play, IMO, and go after totally different objectives. My guild is extremely hardcore in raiding. We raid about 4 to 5 times a day on most occasions, and I NEVER see other players in those zones for casual play.</div> <div> </div> <div>In fact, the zones that raiders inhabit are just that, for raiders. We stick to our little instances and zones and we dont normally interact with Casuals, other than passing them on the way to instances or raid mob spwns.</div> <div> </div> <div>So please explain to me how our raiding diminishes you casual play? in WHAT way? raiders and casuals dont even interact, other than for purchases and whatnot.</div> <hr></blockquote>When the expansion comes out you are going to be killing the same content as everyone else in order to gain experiance to level. If, through a combination of overpowered gear (not that current stuff is) and overpowered AAs, you become dramatically more powerful than someone in more normal equipment then you get a situation where either the normal heroics for leveling xp are trivial to you, or too hard for others and neither of these situations is good for the overall health of the game. Just because you play lots, raid etc. doesn't mean you should be able to trivialise most content, and conversely just because you don't play lots, raid etc. doesn't mean that the majority of mobs in an expansion should be beyond you. </span><div></div>

[Greyfair]

<DIV> <DIV>Ahhh,,,,this then is one of the reasons adding content can be a balancing act;  It also begs the question as to if EQ2 (and many other MMOPRGs) is intended to be one interactive community or two different "games" (raider and casual) merely related by some thin common thread?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"In fact, the zones that raiders inhabit are just that, for raiders. We stick to our little instances and zones and we dont normally interact with Casuals, other than passing them on the way to instances or raid mob spwns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So please explain to me how our raiding diminishes you casual play? in WHAT way? raiders and casuals dont even interact, other than for purchases and whatnot."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>End Quote.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It also speaks to the problem directing content and play changes towards one of the groups (casual or raider as mentioned in the posters quote above) because since both are related by basic game mechanics such changes will affect both.  Now most of the time changes to the raider end will have a more dramatic overall effect than changes to the casual due to the fact that raiders are in general already capped.  Thus any new items, skills, spells etc will need to be "better" in some way than can already achieved and can alter the vary fabric of the base game for all those still at the casual level.  For example in EQ Live raiders/end game players began to shed their older gear, still "uber" by most standards, as even better gear was introduced in expansions.  This gear filtered down into the market and resulted in newer players having gear that vastly overpowered them for their level and trivialized many encounters.  Perhaps there are checks and balances that can be introduced to prevent these problems in the future....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MSD </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[LoofLirpa]

<P>In EQ1, with the addition of each new expansion the goals/targets began to be overwealming for me.  I played alot, but others played even more.  The longer the journey got, the further I fell behind.  It actually became stressful because I couldn't keep up with my buddies even though I played 25 to 30 hours a week.  Finally I got burned out had to quit EQ1.  In EQ2, I made a point of not making it a contest and just doing it for myself...at my own pace.  I have, for the most part, resisted the urge to grind and I absolutely am having a blast.  There is sooooo much to do to get exp other then camp and grind that you rarely get bored.  However, talking to others, its amazing the variety of reasons people play and what things each like and don't like.   Bottom line is "different strokes for different folks".  MG has a good understanding of this IMHO.  Its impossible to please everyone so don't blow your brains out it if the game is not someones cup of tea.  Good post MG :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Weizen Heimer]

Where does one find information on these AA points or other proposed additions to the game?

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>what is the big deal about AA? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one forces people to AA. Its an individual choice. Also, no one forces people to raid. Raiders and Casuals have totally different styles of play, IMO, and go after totally different objectives. My guild is extremely hardcore in raiding. We raid about 4 to 5 times a day on most occasions, and I NEVER see other players in those zones for casual play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact, the zones that raiders inhabit are just that, for raiders. We stick to our little instances and zones and we dont normally interact with Casuals, other than passing them on the way to instances or raid mob spwns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So please explain to me how our raiding diminishes you casual play? in WHAT way? raiders and casuals dont even interact, other than for purchases and whatnot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, why am I hearing complaints about our gear? why should casual players even have fabled gear? Fabled means that you camped a raid mob for hours, got 24 players, maybe even wiped a couple of times (these new raid mobs are nasty) and finally took it down, where it dropped MAYBE 2 fabled pieces.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This gear issue reeks of jealousy. So people are saying if my guild killed a dragon and got some nice gear, and you killed a PF giant we should have the SAME chance to get fabled and mythical gear? That is absurd. What would be the point of it being fabled then?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sorry but no it isn't reeking of jealousy, its an issue that if Raiders get so far ahead of casuals, then Sony feels that future expansions have to be taliored to the raiders, including group content.  Remember GoD, it killed the casual gamer, specially tanks, and then when casuals complained it didn't offer them anything, they where told well GoD was really for the most ubber players,  Strange that wasn't on the advertisment for that piece of garbage.  </P> <P>Plus to this day I remember grouping with a necro in EQlive, I was a well bazzar equiped tank, and the group asked me the standard HP/AC question, and this NECRO laughed and told the group that she had 400 more AC then me and almost as many HP's, thats when I knew that the game was broken for casuals.  If there is a major difference between gear and abilities (not talking about player skill) between raiders and casuals it effects the game for casuals in drastic ways.  We have Raiders soloing epic mobs for loot to sell, casters being able to tank etc.</P> <P>As for killing a loot from killing a dragon vs regular mobs I agree it should be different.  But, instead of great gear from drops on regular mobs, give casual access to a multi-step quest that can be done in different stages, in a compination of soloing and grouping to get great gear, they won't be getting gear as quickly as raiders but they will have options for advancment and if they choose to at a later date won't be so gimped they wont' even be looked at by raider guilds.</P> <P>Some of us work, have lives,  we might play alot, but we can't be tied to the strict schedual that raiding guilds require (I have scheduale on my job, don't need it for my game) and to be blunt some of the raiding players (not saying all) are not fun players to play with, being treated like a peon from some 12 year old that doesn't even know what a mortgage is (or least acts like it) is very annoying.</P> <P>As for the orginal post issue, if they do add AA's they one have to make sure that they are not game altering skills, and two make sure that AA's between the classes are of equal value.  EQlive the AA skill set between melee's and caster was very inbalanced IMHO.</P> <P>Blackoath</P> <P> </P>

[Deadjest]

<P>Exactly, AA didnt work cause it bleed down into every day content.    AA didnt go up on a standard scale either, it was in small leaps which caused player and raid bogging.   Any real raider knows this and the crashing effect it had on stopping advancement till the guild as a whole reached the next set of AA levels.</P> <P>It just didnt work, good intention but just didnt work, AA was basicly good for the 5 percent of the playing base but realy hurt the other 95 percent that were casual and everywhere inbetween.</P> <P>I had about 500 AA,  watching good players join the game and knowing they would be next to worthless till they got up close to your lvl in AA and knowing it was not going to happen cause they joined the game so late was just crazy.</P> <P>Worse if you didnt have a certain amount of AA for even the everyday content, people didnt want you in their groups, and the side effect was if they didnt want you in their groups you couldnt get the AA XP to be where you needed.</P> <P>Which is the SAME problem Warriors had, they were the only Raid Tanks but they were such a one trick pony that nobody really wanted them in groups for a long time which ment they could not lvl and become the raid tanks they needed to be.</P> <P>So in either case, if you didnt have friends or guildmates you were pretty much sent to a slow hell of lvling and seeing new content.</P> <P>They just need to conintue with the diversity in class's and give us once a again, two branches to chose from and build up a branching tree system when it comes to Traits, it will be weaker then the old AA system and newer players can play catch up much easier and add even more diversity to the game.</P>

[mastalynx]

<DIV>To the OP...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To get level 50 took 3 months max and I played a little every day. So, for the last  4-5 months my character has not gotten any better, especially since they nerfed the only items we truly cared about. Considering about half of the people in my guild have quit  the game or are playing other games while waiting for the expansion, you have to admit there is a serious lack of things to do in this game. We already have to wait 2-3 more months for an expansion that looks promising, but its hard to keep people interested in this game. AA's brought people together and we constantly had groups of 6 going. As long as you cant sit there and kite all day like eq1 people will stay logged in and have some fun in this game, we just need some reward other than 50g at the end of the day that really means nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AA's should be around and they should be hard to achieve initially. To make it fair to average players you can cut the exp needed to get them in expansions. I mean by expansion time i will have 3 lvl 50 characters, and if there isnt something fun to do with my main I will quit and so will 1000's  of other people.</DIV>

[RedFeather]

<DIV>What if it were possible to introduce a system similar to AA's, only modified in a fashion, that concentrates more on character diversity rather than growing in strength?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be tricky I'm sure, but it would allow a sense of character customization without throwing game balance out of whack. :smileysurprised:</DIV>

[Zuuljin]

<P>For all you ubers out there, enlighten me on something.  Dont mean that sarcasticaly, I really would like to know.  Dont more guild raids open up as your guild level increases?  And as far as I have seen, no guilds are lvl 50 yet.  So couldnt you just grind out writs as a guild and level the guild as a goal?  Doesnt that also mean that the game has not actually been beaten yet, because noone has even seen the lvl 50 guild raids or the loot they offer?</P> <P>I am not in a high end guild, or even level 50, so I really have no knowledge of any of this.  Any info would be great. =)</P>

[mastalynx]

<DIV>btw</DIV> <DIV>1) I do work full time, so I am tired of people using that exscuse.</DIV> <DIV>2) You only need a few important AA's and you aren't too far behind the people with more than you</DIV> <DIV>3) Average players should be happy to have more things to do in the future and stop worrying about what people who play more have. It is sickening how a casual player expects amazing gear for logging in here and there. You don't get the same paycheck if you work part time instead of full time..... The only reason SoE can squeeze and expansion out 3 months later than  most would have expected is because some of you guys sit there and accept what we have. Btw I am happy with what we have if the expansion came out later this month it would be almost perfect.</DIV> <DIV>4) Me, my friends, and the majority of our guild played eq1 for 2 years+ and AA's did not kill that game, AA's helped it. What killed that game was that many classes could rack in 10 AAs a day solo while other people had to group (which isn't always easy to find - esp with people soling all day) for half that many. The game always took to long to balance and I do believe that EQ2 does a better job in this area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, to keep players interested in this game we can't have 0 progression, its just boring. Another tremendously important thing Sony needs to do is stop with these rediculous changes! I mean raid mobs are so pathetically easy that they decide lets give them ALL a 10k ae. <STRONG>SERIOUSLY</STRONG>, they need to just fire whoever is making these decisions. Why didn't they just start out with a 1k ae? Same with zerg adds, why do we go from no adds to 3 coming endlessly overnight? Practically everything they are doing is wrong the first time around and thats apparently a lack of good testing and vision. I hope they improve on this and i have some faith still <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>Yes a AA system could be adapted to this game but it would have to be tested over and over for raid and player bogging and made so that you don't need a year player wise to catch up, just raid wise and be minor in comparsion to the old one.</P> <P>But I do have a question.    I was hardcore player for 5 years, doing 48hours + on the weekend was standared for a while.</P> <P>What on gods green and blue  earth are some of you thinking when you talk about lack of content in this game.  Where were you when brains were handed out?   This game is so NEW that its insane to expect to have this long list of don't have a life expansions so I need lots of content just sitting there waiting for you.</P> <P>Anything good takes a bit and trust me for part of the 5% of us that leave, there is a 95% population that is ready to take our place.  I don't know about you guys but I see a constant trickle now of WoW players coming over here.</P> <P>This game has one of the very best systems for growth I have seen in ages on this scale.   My complaint is that Sony does not know what it has on its hands and how far they can go with it.   I am really thinking now to be a develper you should have to have some pen and paper game time under your belt befor your allowed to code.   So you can see the dynamics of it and how it can be applied here.</P> <P> </P>

[sliderhouserules]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div> You are writing your opinions as if they are facts, but they're not. Even though you can find people who will agree with your points, that doesn't transform them into absolutes. This thread illustrates that plenty of other people feel that AAs and the Planes of Power expansion added great things to EverQuest. Neither group is right or wrong; it's simply how they feel.</div><hr></blockquote>Here's a fact: I quit EQ1 because of these very elements. I will not waste your or my time trying to explain why, as it has been said many times, by myself and others. I am not interested in letting this game "</span>reveal its own unique magic" if the path it takes is the same as the one EQ1 took. You had a design that was very well worked out, and a lot of marketing that was based on those design decisions. The implementation of some of the ideas has not worked out as well as was hoped, but that does not mean that the design was bad. EQ2 has a very fine line to walk. You are either going to have to stick to your guns and follow through on your design decisions and make the game you told us you were making, or you are going to have to start caving to demand and rethink your design at many levels. That brings to the forefront of the discussion the <u>fact</u> that you cannot please everyone. Ergo, it is a <u>fact</u> that you are going to have to, at some point, choose which customers you want to keep.

[Dreit]

I'd love to have AA's in the game right now. So would many of the people of my guild. You might actually see some lvl 50's out in the zones doing exp if there were AA's. You don't atm. Once you hit 50, you might fight here and there to finish up quests or help guildies, but for the most part you are jumping from instance to instance killing raid mobs for loot. This is the reason that zones feel so empty. Every day someone else is hitting 50 and they join the instance jumping league. Thus, every day you are seeing less and less people fighting in zones due to this.

[Deadjest]

The very concept of grinding another 500 AA in this game is mind boggling and as a friend once said to me, it reminded him of his divorice.

[Banag]

<DIV> <P> </P><IMG height=1 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=1 border=0><BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sliderhouserules wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> That brings to the forefront of the discussion the <U>fact</U> that you cannot please everyone.<BR><BR>Ergo, it is a <U>fact</U> that you are going to have to, at some point, choose which customers you want to keep.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P></SPAN> </P> <P>I have been reading posts in threads about Guild size, level caps, AA's (groan) and the needs of the Uber, Raiding Guilds that aren't being met...the most troubling thing I've read was the assertion that Casual player didn't have the the right to expect the same level of reward as does a Raider / Grinder who puts in 18 hours a day, every day. I find that to be most insulting and definitely Elitist!!!</P> <P>From the beginning, the emphasis has been to move away from the Grinding out of levels that was evident in EQ1...and instead, fill the world with enough content (Quests, hidden zones, new discoveries) to keep people excited and entertained...yet here we are again, with those who race to be the first to the level cap complaining that there is nothing else to do, and that SOE needs to make changes to suit them. In EQ1, changes were made because the majority of the people posting were the ones complaining...and in the absence of an organized opposition, changes were made that sounded the beginning of the end.</P> <P>It's happening again, but hopefully, SOE will think before it acts...as Sliderhouserules said " That brings to the forefront of the discussion the <U>fact</U> that you cannot please everyone.<BR>Ergo, it is a <U>fact</U> that you are going to have to, at some point, choose which customers you want to keep."</P> <P>The numbers I have been seeing are thus...that only about 5% of the subscribers to EQ2 fall into the Uber Raider / Grinder category...if this is so, it would be pure folly for SOE to cater to a small minority of malcontents who only want to see their names listed on stats pages...and tell the rest of us to shove...well, you get the idea. What we need is for the other 95%...the ones who play for the enjoyment of discovery, exploration and fun...to flood these boards with posts saying ~  we will not lie down and have our game mutilated to suit an elite few...we are not less important, just because we haven't hit the level cap. Imagine what would happen, if the 95% of us who don't want radical changes, suddenly cancelled our accounts? Would the powers that be be able to keep the show running with the 5% that would be left? I think not!!!</P> <P>So, if you don't want the way you play YOUR game affected by an Elite few...flood all the message boards with posts proclaiming...We want our EQ2 to stay the way YOU (SOE) promised it would be!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>ok...rant over!</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Banagon on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:20 PM</span>

[Vellek]

<P>Maybe 5% of the player database are hardcore raiders, but I really dont know how anyone can come up with a percentage like that. Who knows, but I suspect it is more of a speculation that a fact. </P> <P>"we are not less important, just because we haven't hit the level cap" </P> <P>I promise you a lot more than 5% of the player database has hit level 50. Do a /who all <level> on your server and you will see just how many level 50s there are compared to players on any other level. On our server right now (and this is the norm) we have about 10-25 of players on any given level from 1-49. However, we have 171 players who are level 50 online right now. Maybe most of those are casual players, but it is not just the hardcore raiders who are desiring more endgame content. If SOE continues to make this game so easy to advance in character level, they will have to continue to provide many different challenging encounters for those who have reached their level cap. If they want to keep thousands of level 50s happy, they need to keep introducing content to entertain them. </P> <P>Moorgard stated a few times how difficult it is for developers to construct entire new raid zones such as the Spirits of the Lost, Crypt of T'Haen, and the Splitpaw Saga. Introducing AAs provides many players who are already level 50 something else to do in between the release dates of new content. If there werent so many players who are already level 50 I could see where you are coming from, but my opinion is that the majority of the player base who is online is either already level 50 or has a level 50 toon. If not a majority, a very substantial percentage. </P>

[Deadjest]

<P>5% is the Hardcore player base which has nothing to do with lvl cap, how people get that mixed up I have no clue.  </P> <P>And it was posted by EQ for EQL which is the model they used for this game in casual vs hardcore.   But AA doest translate well down the line and <STRONG>That</STRONG> is the problem.    It forces content to constantly be beefed up, to meet the needs of AA beefed up people, which is different then just being High Lvl and so it rolls down hill and hurts the larger player base.</P> <P>You hurt the larger player base in this now becoming game rich enviroment you won't have a game for the AA Goobers to play.</P> <P>If all contested mobs were to become part of instant zones with a hardness setting, then MAYBE it would work, but thats a big MAYBE.</P> <P>IF they did a traits tree, that migh help some but again, if you have to do xp for it and grind it out, you hurt again all the players that will soon be joining the game by time the next expension comes out.   </P> <P>If you make a game where the older players are so far ahead that it looks compleatly hopeless to catch up to them without giving up your day job, then the new players will become frustrated and wont stay long and that to will trickle to some of the mid grade present players.</P> <P><STRONG>IF </STRONG>you can find your away around those problems, then it could work.</P> <P>But to constantly ask for AA and not even bring up for a way it could work around all this, well that is just fool hardy and gets nothing done but keyboard polishing.</P>

[Nazo]

<P>Zuuljin said</P> <P>For all you ubers out there, enlighten me on something.  Dont mean that sarcasticaly, I really would like to know.  Dont more guild raids open up as your guild level increases?  And as far as I have seen, no guilds are lvl 50 yet.  So couldnt you just grind out writs as a guild and level the guild as a goal?  Doesnt that also mean that the game has not actually been beaten yet, because noone has even seen the lvl 50 guild raids or the loot they offer?</P> <P>I am not in a high end guild, or even level 50, so I really have no knowledge of any of this.  Any info would be great. =)</P> <DIV>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guild Raids open at every 5 levels but they are hilarious with level 25-30 mobs. At the moment guilds cannot progress beyond level 30. Anything beyond this is not in the game yet. To be able to use level 30 Guild rewards aka the carpet you need to have 60+ plat stashed away :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will eat my own Tower Shield first rather spending 60+ plat on a carpet....</DIV> <P>but if those guild raids that come with guild levels have been anything serious they would have kept raiding guilds busy with spending time on leveling the guild.</P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>07-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:46 AM</span>

[Nolrog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banagon wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>The numbers I have been seeing are thus...that only about 5% of the subscribers to EQ2 fall into the Uber Raider / Grinder category...if this is so, it would be pure folly for SOE to cater to a small minority of malcontents who only want to see their names listed on stats pages...and tell the rest of us to shove...well, you get the idea.</P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That may be true, however, AAs do not cater only to these people.  I think the fallacy here is that if you are level 50, you are an uber raider.  That's not true.  There are lots of other people who are maxed out in levels that are not uber raiders or grinders.  At this point, there's nothing in the game for them, except rolling an alt, and doing it again.  In addition, people will do AAs before they max out.  In EQ1, for example, many people stop levelling at 51 and switch to AAs to get the run speed boosts, and then continue on their way levelling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>Its about AA in general, at some point it breaks the game on a logical lvl and players on a spiritual lvl.   </P> <P>In EQL,  there were heavy bogging points in gaming where if you didnt have the AA you were not effective enough to be there and it could be many months down the road befor you had that AA.</P> <P>So effectively you split the gaming community into lvling in two directions which put alot of stress on players who liked to play alot but were not hardcore raiders.   And they are the money makers for the game.</P> <P>I think for talk sake, it really needs to be split up more when talking about the player base, cause its not just 2 different class's of players but 3 different types.</P> <P>You actualy have Casual Players, Hardcore Players and Hardcore Raiders and there is a difference between all 3, the Hardcore players play alot just not on the lvl of the no lifers and very group friendly to try to push into hard dungeons but are above causal when it comes to raiding but not on the Hardcore Raider lvl.</P> <P>And its the Hardcore Players which get hurt the most.</P> <P>AA can never again with gaming  as it now stands be used on a mass scale the way it was in EQL,  the player base is not there for it,  the apple pie of players is now split among many games.   For a uber game like many hardcore raiders want, it would probably cost like 80 bucks a month or more to support a staff that would constanly be at the tables pushing the envelope befor the players reached it.   Now that I think of it the price would probably be high do to the fact there is no where near the amount of hardcore raiders as there are hardcore players and casual players to support such a system.</P> <P>The best thing I can think of is setting for instant dungeons, like they have in Splitpaw.   And when you leave such a setting you would mentor down on the item and ability lvl of the zone you are in so you could not run free and just lay waste to it.    Many people would fight that but then many people want their cake and eat it to no matter who else it hurt.</P> <P>And it would not be a setting of easy, hard and very hard but would have to have a number setting, that way as time goes by, what was considered hard last year by some players would be considered easy this year but with difficulty lvl based on a number, the system would be open ended, so it would be based on the zone the max your abilities and lvl could achieve.</P> <P>MUHAHAHA can't wait to see the response to this one.</P>

[Aegori]

<DIV>Personally, i would enjoy seeing some form of an AA system to a very small extent. More so, i would love to see it as a specialization effort as opposed to a general broadening of skills. The way i see it, most classes have about 5 distinct lines of spells. I'll use guardian as my example, as i'm familiar with their abilities:</DIV> <UL> <LI>Taunt Line</LI> <LI>Guard Line</LI> <LI>Single Target Heavy DD Line</LI> <LI>AE Attack Line</LI> <LI>Defense Buff Line</LI></UL> <P>(we have more, but these are just some general ones)</P> <P>For this system, people would choose 2 of the lines (a primary line and a secondary line). The progression along the primary line can be taken to it's full extent while progression along the secondary line would only be taken to 75% of it's full potential. Progression along each line would yield a few possiblities including % increases to existing abilities, discovery of new abilities within the chosen lines and/or simple addition to abilities within that line (for example... an AE stun affect added to an AE taunt). Progression would be accomplished not only through XP, but by questing as well, and perhaps even, if able to be done properly, 1-2 group raids. </P> <P>This offers quite a bit to everyone in that they can truly specialize to what they expected to be. I'm sure most expected to have the spells they have when they chose the classes they did... they just expected specific abilities to perform better. Take zerkers... some expected to fierce DPS in battle, but feel they got shorted. These people who would rather be a DPS fighter could focus on the lines that help that. Fighters that want to be tanks can focus on their buff and taunt lines. The more righteous fighters who are always looking out for everyone else can focus on their guard lines. Wizards/Warlocks... focus on nukes if you want top be heavy nukers, while others can focus on elemental buffs and/or mana pumps to be effective nukers but have more utility. Give people the options to advance their characters by choosing how they want to differentiate themselves and not just giving them a lump of 1000 AAs that they can grind through. Make the AA system small and meaningful.</P> <P>Basically, if you make it a small portion of progression, dont over-expand it so that we have to go through 1000+ AAs to get to max and offer us ways to advance on top of that... then you have a successful system. Jamming more and more AAs down our throat every expansion doesn't make our lives meaningful as we push on... it simply makes it tedious. </P> <P>That's just my 2cp tho.</P> <P>-Aeg</P>

[Banag]

<P>First off...let me say that I did not mean to offend anyone with my previous post...I'm just voiceing what others have said to me and my own fears as well...fears you may say? Let me explain...</P> <P>...I really enjoyed EQ1, though I came into it quite late (just before the 5 year anniversary and all the skellie fun), but I truly did enjoy the game...the problems came when guildies felt they had to grind out AA's just to keep up...that caused deep divisions in our guild...and some animosity by some who had hit the cap, and those of us who were working our way up...we even started a RP group within the guild to try to draw ppl back together and explore all the content they blew by while leveling...</P> <P>...then EQ2 came out with its promise of a more content rich environment that would cater more to the players who wanted to enjoy all the richness of the game and less to those who wanted to speed through to the cap...I'm just concerned that if EQ2 goes the same way that EQ1 did, that history will once again repeat itself...and I don't want that to happen, for I really do enjoy this game and all the ppl I have met along the way!!!</P> <P>I guess what I'm asking is...IS there a way to satisfy the more hardcore gamer who wants to zip through the game, while at the same time preserve the integrety of the game...the way they promised us it would be? I don't want to see anyone left out...but I don't want to see EQ2 go the way EQ1 did either...ok...I'm just rambling now...there's my 2cp worth.</P> <P>Peace to All</P> <p>Message Edited by Banagon on <span class=date_text>07-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 PM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>The problem is that many lvl 50's havent "zipped" through to lvl 50. People, this game has been out for almost 9 months. There are many, many lvl 50's who ddnt grind their way to the top..they got there through quests, grps, and content play. </P> <P>The arguement that "those poor SOB's grinded their way to the top, so its their fault" is pointless, because the game has been out long enough for many people reach 50 without grinding. That is my concern. AA's give those of us stuck at 50 something to do besides raiding and questing. </P> <P>Some people dont like tradeskilling and questing, so how can u force them to do that? giving someone AA is like adding new quests and rewards. You dont have to be UBER to do them, nor do you have to be hardcore. </P> <P>Its a simple fact of maybe an increase in run speed requires a particular AA, which is open to anyone who wants to complete it. I dont understand people who say AA is not fair because it makes some players UBER. The same applies to gear! Should gear also be removed because it makes players uber? or some spells? no! so what do AA do? They give those of us at lvl 50 something do to improve our chars. If you didnt get a particular AA its on you, the player..</P> <P>Like anything in RL or EQ II, people should be rewarded for hard work and effort. I'm sorry if some of you dont have the time to complete a particular AA, but that how will that preclude you in any way? I work full time too, im in the Military, I have a wife, a mortgage, and go to school..i only play after 10pm..and only for about 2 to 3 hours if im lucky...and I still have managed to get 7 pieces of fabled gear and complete 201 raids. If you want a weapon that procs mana finish the SM heritage..if you want that AA then finish that AA quest..its that simple. As it stands, if you cant finish the SM are people going to complain because they dont have the time to finish the quest, but still want a quick way to get a similar item? </P> <P>In conclusion hard work should be rewarded, the tougher the objective, the better the reward. People should congratulate others for beating a particularly hard mob, instead of complaining about how a player who just camped Nagalik, wiped 6 times, took 20 gold in repair fees, beat Nag and got a decent shield. </P> <P>AA falls into that category. You are not forced to complete AA, but its something for those of us who strive to better our characters would look upon with happiness. So if you run into a MOB that requires a particular AA, then complete it and get on with it! </P> <P>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</P>

[Deadjest]

<P>The problem is AA bleeds down into everyday content like it did in EQ and if you don't have it do to endless hours of playing, you really dont have what it takes to get there.   What part of this is hard to comprehend here?</P> <P>As to Armor, this is not a IQ test either.   Getting Armor does not give you a either or choice like AA does,  AA does, lvl or AA, its that simple.  AA combined with Armor and you have a uber situtation going on that will to a great degree effect content for the basic player.   Cause it all rolls down hill in the end.</P> <P>And also it relates to Moorguards post, AA does cause TONS of balance issues, one wrong AA can send massive ripples down the line.</P> <P>I do agree somthing needs to be done but not by the use of AA, that is like throwing gas on a fire when we already have class problems as it is.</P> <P>I do like the idea of specializing, somthing that starts to seperate this watered down system we have.   EQ2 has a awsome system just waiting to be used, but right now its like a Race Car going down main street, great to look at but not as thrilling as watching it at the races.</P>

[V4n]

For all you saying AA is bad for the game; I played EQ1 for 4 years, and EQ2 for 6 months so far. I am far from a hardcore gamer. AA is what kept me going so long in EQ1. Without it in EQ2, there is little left to work on to advance my character. A lot of the philosophy and anti-AA argument revolves around keeping the gap between casual and hardcore gamers small enough to not hurt the casual gamers. If you do this by capping the ability to advance, you are forcing a cliff for your most dedicated players to fall off. This may be fine from a business point of view if you want to keep "refilling" the game with new, low end players. But I don't see that happening, and the net result is going to be a shriveling player base and a dead game.When I recently hit 50, all of a sudden there was no reason to do an xp dungeon crawl. Half of what I used to do no longer mattered. I don't care if it is AA or something else, but please give me back a reason to gain experience.

[Deadjest]

<P>I played EQL since the game came out.   I saw the massive game bogging that was not due to Gear.</P> <P>Are you saying you would rather see AA come out like EQLs and have it bogg down the content as it bleeds down hill for the majority of the players to satisfy the minority of the players?   Cause Harecore players can't carry the game, there is not NEARLY enough of them to support this game to keep it going.  Cause the bottom line is, if the hardcore players suffer, the game hurts some, if the mid-grade chars heavily suffer, the game dies in the heavy game enviroment we now live in and the Hardcore players loose compleatly and have to move on like everyone else.</P> <P>Here is a major question that I think should be asked.</P> <P>Are people wanting the Very  Flawed EQL AA system  or do people want a Alternitive system that is specialy built for EQ2 alone that wont bogg down the content for all casts of players?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Margen]

<P>Valid question, After giving it some thought, I would say add an AA system .... BUT, make it so that yes it improves your character, but it doesn't kill players that don't have it.  Also none of these class defining AA's, no dire charms, or increasing defense by large amounts, or healing etc..  </P> <P>Cause I have no objections to 50 level characters having something to work for, but I don't want to be so far behind when I get to 50 that I will never catch up or even stay treading water, and I don't want to see either AA's or equipment have such a complete change in the game dynamics that we saw in EQlive.  Never again should Sony put out an expansion that depends on you being a hardcore raider.</P> <P>One other issue, All classes must remain valid at soloing for it to work.  In EQlive you had classes like bards and wizards getting an AA each hour with their ability to solo multiple mobs.  While my pally needed a group to do any worth while xping, and there was numerous other classes in the same boat.</P> <P>Blackoath 40th Troll Shadow Knight</P> <p>Message Edited by Margen on <span class=date_text>07-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:44 PM</span>

[Zuuljin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> V4nce wrote:<BR><BR>A lot of the philosophy and anti-AA argument revolves around keeping the gap between casual and hardcore gamers small enough to not hurt the casual gamers. If you do this by capping the ability to advance, you are forcing a cliff for your most dedicated players to fall off. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The problem with that is that casuals are the cash cow, while the 'most dedicated players' are a very small minority.   So you need to keep the casuals happy.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However the problem with EQ2 is that its just too easy.  As many have pointed out, you dont even have to be hardcore to hit the 50 cap, and then have nothing to do.   AA's could work in EQ2, if they are designed to work in EQ2.  There is nothing wrong with AA's really, just they cannot be seemingly unlimited like EQ1's were.  I liked getting AA's in EQ1, and they did indeed keep me playing.  Up untill the point I realized I did not play enough to keep advancing,and felt that hopeless feeling of never being able to catch up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope the new expansion's 10 levels take as long as the original 50 levels, or at least 25 levels. </DIV>

[Named]

<DIV>There needs to be some way to advance your character. Currently leveling is so quick and easy that it works well for a few months.. but the game has been out for 9 (? ) months now and everyone that plays a couple hours a day is level 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the new level cap with the expansion will be enough advancement to keep many players busy, however the new levels should take days or even weeks per level.. Not hours.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Named88 on <span class=date_text>07-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:35 PM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Well Named don't know what to tell ya.</P> <P>If we lvled much much more slower you will see a ton of hardcore players pull their hair out that they have not reached the top yet and then cry once they have, its a no win situation there and think what would happen with the casual and mid grade people.</P> <P>I think more or less the game should be made so that inbetween expensions the Hardcore people reach a wall a few months befor the next expension and when it comes out, while they are going hard at it the mid grade people will just have started to catch up and start to fall behind again with the new expension.</P> <P>Sorta like a dog chasing his tail, the mid grade players are just that far from reaching it while the hardcore run and stop, run and stop with mid grade players a step always behind and casuals, well they are casual, there is a no such thing as a win situation for them for its play as they feel.    If you build it just for the top end, it will kill the game but somthing does have to be done.   9 months is a tad much now.</P> <P>But it really does break down to 3 groups of players not 2, Casual Players, Hardcore Players and Hardcore Raiders.   The middle ground is the best route for gameing to take.    It leaves the mid grade players always just about to catch up and raiders haveing a rest inbetween expansions, just not to long of a rest.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>everquest 1 is still goin very strong with supscrition rates.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If aa failed so badly why is it still one of the top with the numbers? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If its such a hard core game that punishes the "majority" of players why is it still above some of the hot newer games.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also if the people who don't level are such the overwhelming majority why are the lower zones so dead....  Cause you don't log on enough to fill em?  but if you were actually 90% even attrition would fill these zones up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe the people that actually play the game are in the minority.. but if you don't even log on enough to play the game then why do you let them bother you?  Why can't you just be happy with the way you play and be happy with the way your neighbor plays</DIV>

[Nazo]

<P>It still too early for AA's...</P> <P>Please dont give SoE the easy way out. Of course if AA's were introduced even lame ones people like me will start grinding them like maniacs but it is way too early for that.</P> <P>We are talking about first ever expansion coming out. Let SoE try and find more creative ways of keeping power gamers occupied in the form of hard quests or more raiding zones. By asking for AA's soooo early in the game you are just giving SoE the easy way out of creating more content.</P> <P>There isnt even talk of completing Combat Revamp before expansion. Do you want AA's for your class based on the current system ? Everything will change soon(TM) Let the Combat Revamp and the following repercussion patches of the patches of the patches go through. A system of AA's will be much more fun and meaningfull in a stabilized and mature game. At the moment EQ2 is anything but these...</P> <p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:56 AM</span>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazowa wrote:<BR> <P>It still too early for AA's...</P> <P>Please dont give SoE the easy way out. Of course if AA's were introduced even lame ones people like me will start grinding them like maniacs but it is way too early for that.</P> <P>We are talking about first ever expansion coming out. Let SoE try and find more creative ways of keeping power gamers occupied in the form of hard quests or more raiding zones. By asking for AA's soooo early in the game you are just giving SoE the easy way out of creating more content.</P> <P>There isnt even talk of completing Combat Revamp before expansion. Do you want AA's for your class based on the current system ? Everything will change soon(TM) Let the Combat Revamp and the following repercussion patches of the patches of the patches go through. A system of AA's will be much more fun and meaningfull in a stabilized and mature game. At the moment EQ2 is anything but these...</P> <P>Message Edited by Nazowa on <SPAN class=date_text>07-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:56 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Not everyone wants to do quests.  ALOT of people hate quests.  Also raid content follows the same concept with the combat upgrade.  Do you really want more raids under the same rule set?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only that you can't raid all the time.  It was too dependant on having 11-23 other people.  Where as if you had aa you could just log on and play for alittle bit</DIV>

[Greyfair]

<P>Just  a thought...</P> <P>For those of you who say that EQ Live is still going strong and is still rated higher than some new games (excluding WoW which far exceeds any EQ subscription base) I would say that given the time EQ Live has existed it only makes sense such is the case.  Even with its flaws it is a "known"; combine this with the fact that many people have trouble saying goodbye to an avatar they have spent years on and there will always be a group of players who cannot and will not let go until the plug is pulled on the server.  And dont forget, for a long long time EQ Live was the only first person fantasy MMOPRG around.  If you want to drive and the only thing the market has is a Yugo then guess what you will be driving, even if you have visions of driving a BMW.</P> <P>Yet, if EQ Live is everything that many people in this thread say they want in an MMORPG then why did those same people come to EQ2 even after it was described as having a new focus and as content rich filled with quests and such?  I cannot imagine its for the graphics alone.  It would appear that the game system in EQ Live was not the best after all. (I am still baffled by those who say they hate questing and feel no need to ineract in the game world as a whole....yet they decide to play an MMORPG.) </P> <P>I think in the end what many people fear will happen is that by catering to the high end gamer the rest of the game will be fundamentally altered for everyone else.  If there was a way that the capped players/raiders could be satisfied without the rest of the game suffering a trickle down effect then no one would care.  Yet this has not been the case in the past.  Change the top end with new abilities and equipment and inevitiably the rest of the game is changed.  The reason newer games on the market grabbed such a huge market share so quickly is based on the realization that the casual player base pays the bills.  Given that more and more games on the MMORPG scale are being introduced payers have options as to where they spend their cash.  I have no doubt that if the fundamental mechanics of EQ2 change in a manner that either alienates any group (the casual player or the not so casual player) then the disenfranchised group will go elsewhere.  The question is what group can EQ2 really afford to lose? </P> <P> </P> <P>MSD</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>Cause eql isnt what these people want.  Youy assume just cause we want aa we want the game to be like eql... but that is far from the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game is nothing like eql and never will be.  Just cause AA is in eql doesn't mean if they add it to this game it will be the same game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was just bringing out the point that obviously its not a concept tried and failed.</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>But it is a concept that failed, constant imbalances made with  AA intoduction per expansion, massive time sinks beyoned what was reasonable, content AA bleeding that beefed up the zones to a determent of many players.  AA also add a additional class seperation so now it was Level, Gear and AA and Turn in for Spell Rewards that constantly beat down anyone who had not spent a few years in the game if you didnt have a friend that helped you get what normaly you shouldnt have with your own work.  We wont even mention working on Keys to get into zones.  I could go on but you get the point.</P> <P>I am not against a system of possible upgrades that help seperate our roles, I am against massive time sinks and content over powering to back up massive upgrades.</P> <P>Content over powering do to massive upgrades is a game killer for the majority.   Its that simple.</P> <P>Its one thing to spend alot of time playing EQ, its another to make it a Second Job and give up RL just so you can reach the end content.</P> <P>We have spent so much time talking about game balance I think we missed another issue all together.</P> <P>That is RL balance, I think its a RL imbalance that is pushing so hard for such massive upgrades.  To play EQ so much that you are 50 on the second month and blown through most of its content by the 6 month......   Well I will leave it at that, anything more I would have to say here would be very insulting to many people.</P> <P>But bottom line is, upgrades are not bad, what is bad is how AA was done and the scale it was done on EQL.</P> <P>We need somthing that is more befitting to this game and does not turn into a time sink that causes over power of zones which severly inhibits the mid grade chars and the new ones surly to join the game.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>Just like moorguard said.. that is your opinion and not a fact</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it really failed then people would just leave. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also this is not the second month into the game.  This is the 9th month so even CASUAL gamers are becoming 50 now.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know plenty of people that go to school... work.. and have a life with friends outside of game and are level 50.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Personaly i don't go to school but i do have a full time job which takes up alot of my time plus i do alot of things with my friends and i am level 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't assume casual gamers don't get 50 ...</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:33 PM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Actualy some of what Moorguard is opinion and not fact.   EQL itself in the past mentioned that they regreated a few of the decsions that they made and how they impacted that game.   Thats a Fact.</P> <P>And those decsions are still active and going today.   Thats a Fact.   Their Player base has shrunk some, that is also a fact, I still have friends that play there and lets not forget many just don't have the will to give up such hard work yet and want to see it through to the end no matter what.   That to is a fact, a friend of mine who is still there said that to me.</P> <P>The constant rebalancing that has gone on to is a Fact due to some of the AA and how it works,  I still remember when Mana Burn took a big hit.  That cost my a bit of AA for the time it came out.</P> <P>I can continue with lots of Facts.</P> <P>The opinion is where you decide if you enjoy that type of game or not.   Many came here to get away from it.    Is it fair to turn a game that was advertised to be different from EQL back into EQL?</P> <P>If people enjoyed that system so much, why leave it and be having that this talk at all?</P> <P>That game is still going on, if its so great why not return to it?</P> <P>EQ2 has one major change that bespeaks a style way different and less tedious then EQL,  that is the 24 Man Raid Max.    Its less work to get that going, less work to hold a guild together for that Raid style.   Its less work in so many catagories and yet the challage is still there and getting more so as they try new things without the tedium of a 72 man raid.</P> <P>So what is it really, do you want the AA to the massive degree of EQL or do you want a Progessive Sysytem built more for this play style.</P> <P>That is what I am curious about.  Not about progressive system itself, but how massive and to what degree of time sink.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<P>And your opinion... just cause you claim to be casual... does not reflect the whole casual community.  Thats a fact.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also a fact that i know ALOT of casual players that support AA.  </P> <P>Next... you telling me to return to eq1 is like me telling you go play a game like wow.  Its a stupid argument and i'm not gonna even goin on with it</P> <P>AA means alternate advancement.  That means a system aside from just leveling your character.  It doesn't gotta be the same system as eq1 </P> <P>Lastly.  Not so much a fact but something that rings true for most things....  the MAJORITY of people don't care either way.  So you really need to stop putting yourself as this overwhelming majority when your just a vocal minority just like the people who want aa</P> <DIV>P.S.  They refunded mana burns aa to spend else where</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:04 PM</span>

[Effulgen]

I think the AA system sounds great.  As a lvl50 warlock since March, ive been fairly bored with the current content and frustrated that a lvl50 warlock since june is such as good as me.  Though this problem has to deal with other mage gimping aspects of the game, i would love to have a way to advance even further with my character after the max level. <div></div>

[Nazo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Not everyone wants to do quests.  ALOT of people hate quests.  Also raid content follows the same concept with the combat upgrade.  Do you really want more raids under the same rule set?</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only that you can't raid all the time.  It was too dependant on having 11-23 other people.  Where as if you had aa you could just log on and play for alittle bit</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Cecil I was refering to future raids that would be coming with 1st Expansion Pack. I am not expecting them to add anymore raids before that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes with AAs you could login and play a bit true but to what end ? It is same old grinding again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My fear with AAs is as I stated before it is the easy way out. Same zones, same mobs just weeks and weeks of grind. The time for AAs will of course come and we will be doing them ad infinitum but it is way too early. Any nice AA ability introduced for your class as it is now may be borked after Combat Revamp or may bork Combat Revamp itself. If suddenly Moorgard starts posting in al class forums "What AA abilities you would like to see" what will you answer ? Noone knows really what is gonna happen to their class. Sure we can have an introductory AA system like the 1st tier of EQ AAs. Add 10 to each stat and resists etc. That wouldnt confuse the current system and maybe keep bored at 50 people like you and me occupied for a while. Anything more complicated then that I am not willing to take the risk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets wait for Combat Revamp...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS There are too many hints innuendos around forums about introduction of an AA system with DoF so we may end up with an incomplete Combat System AND AAs YAY !!!</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>07-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:23 AM</span>

[Nazo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>EQ2 has one major change that bespeaks a style way different and less tedious then EQL,  that is the 24 Man Raid Max.    Its less work to get that going, less work to hold a guild together for that Raid style.   Its less work in so many catagories and yet the challage is still there and getting more so as they try new things without the tedium of a 72 man raid.</P> <P>So what is it really, do you want the AA to the massive degree of EQL or do you want a Progessive Sysytem built more for this play style.</P> <P>That is what I am curious about.  Not about progressive system itself, but how massive and to what degree of time sink.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Dont want to derail the thread but I will have to chime in with this one. Making a guild work with 24 raid limit is MUCH MORE work then EQL :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>In EQL you had the safety of the numbers here you dont. What do you do if your troubadour stops playing ? Recruit another one right away ? They dont grow on trees you know. Keep extra from each class ? What will they do when they are left out of half of the raids every day ? </P> <P>The massive EQL AAs didnt happen overnight. I DO support a comprehensive AA system that will develop over the course of years. If a player do not want to walk into that threadmill of AA grinding then he/she is free not to because in 99% of the cases it is the min/max people like me who will need those AAs for raiding. AA system is like equipment. I raid 4 hours a day and do not think that it is only for the joy of knocking out big bad guys. It is also for the loot I get so I can improve my character. To get top equipment I need 23 more people like me but to get AAs a casual player probably will even be able to solo if they do it right. </P> <P>That is what I call a fair deal...<BR></P>

[Deadjest]

<DIV>Well I am not sure what is going on but we dont have those issues getting a 24 man raid going.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok why have two games built upon the two tedious system, this one didnt start with it and wanted to get away from EQL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would you come to a game that does not have it and wants to be different when there is a game with all that already in it?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just with a few mins of reading the game  and a little bit of logic you can tell this is not ment to be on the same scale/style that EQL is, so why push for that when  EQL already exists?</DIV>

[Kronadin]

<P>I don't understand why anybody does NOT want AA's. It's a great way to keep improving your character, which is what a role playing game is always about. Why should it break the game? If someone has enough time to invest into their character, why not let them become really good? Why let them get bored at level 50 with no more advancement (or level 60)?</P> <P>I must add that I myself am a casual player. I am only level 41. I would never grief the players that have more time for EQ2 on their hands though. If I reach level 50 and the guy next to me, who has put in 3 times as much effort into his character is exactly the same at level 50 as I am, that would be unfair. It would be fair if he was better than me, if he could kill the same mob with more ease than me. That's what role-playing games are about: Improve your character. I understand well that people get bored when they're stuck at level 50 with no further paths of improvement.</P> <P>AA's are a great way to improve a character for both casual players and the 24/7 power gamer. Of course the power gamer will always be superior, but that's what they're investing time for. I'm no power gamer, so I won't join any uber guilds... so what? Why should I envy people that are more uber than me? I can still play the game as I want, with my bunch of people that have a similar play style.</P> <DIV>If AA's are unfair or break the game, then so do levels and better equipment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm on</DIV> <DIV>So I suggest EQ2 should cap at level 1 and the only equipment available for anyone is a torn cloth tunic. Problem solved, the game is fair to everyone now, yay.</DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm off</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kronadin on <span class=date_text>07-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:19 PM</span>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>I didn't say they should stop adding content.  Just cause they might add aas doesn't mean they are gonna stop the content.  This game has amazing content already and we arent even on the 1st expansion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Splitpaw was amazing how well it was done ... blood lines was ok as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But in the end... when  you are done dungeon crawling what do you have to show for it?  Yeah it may be fun at the time but in the end they can't make enough zones fast enough for one group that likes to explore to keep busy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they added aas at the end of the day when you are done crawling you have the gain of your character to show for it.</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>If you can't understand why people don't want AAs after 6 pages of posts, I don't know what to tell you......</P> <P>But its really two issues.</P> <P>AA or not to AA</P> <P>What type of system of AAs,  EQ2 Scale, or EQL Scale.</P>

[Greyfair]

<P>I am assuming a large portion of those who post stating that AAs are "merely a way to advance characters so whats wrong with them" and believe somehow this is a "jealousy argument between casual and non casual players" did not play EQ Live from beta and so experience the change over time.  </P> <P>No one here argues against any type of avatar "flavor" system if it is well implemented; and that is the problem.  AAs in EQ Live were not well implemented.  As the hardcore players gained more and more abilities through grinding AAs the content they faced had to be tweaked.  New content was not introduced at a rate that could keep up with the skills the players gained so old content was made more difficult.  While this was great for the hardcore AA gathering group it fundamentally changed the game for the larger and more casual player base.  In effect EQ Live became two games. </P> <P>By the time a casual player or group might get to an encounter that before could have been defeated with no extra abilites it now might take x number of AAs to be successful.  This caused a bog down effect as people tried to farm AAs.  Some of the best farming places for AAs also tended to displace those players who were in that zone because it was a challenge at their level..not a mere farm.  Other things happened as well, like new content equipment trickling down to lower levels, that trivialized encounters for players who were at a level they were designed for.</P> <P>...to those who say the EQ2 game system is easy and far from what they want, yet feel insulted when it is suggested they go play a game more to their liking I would say; Most people do not buy games that do not fit their play style or have mechanics they do not really like and then hope they can somehow fundamentally change the game mechanics once they start playing, rather most people play games that are designed from the start in a manner that suits them.</P> <P>...as far as the raid limit goes I am surprised at some of the consternation displayed.  Given there is a cap I would think this would entice the "raiders" even more as you cannot rely on sheer numbers and raids become much more strategic in their planning and implementation. </P> <P>...for those who believe the posters who are against an EQ Live AA type system were all casual players in the old game I would suggest you are mistaken.  Many of us are so vehemently against it because we experienced it first hand and saw what it did to the game over time.</P> <P> </P> <P>MSD  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyfairer wrote:<BR> <P>I am assuming a large portion of those who post stating that AAs are "merely a way to advance characters so whats wrong with them" and believe somehow this is a "jealousy argument between casual and non casual players" did not play EQ Live from beta and so experience the change over time. </P> <P>No one here argues against any type of avatar "flavor" system if it is well implemented; and that is the problem.  AAs in EQ Live were not well implemented.  As the hardcore players gained more and more abilities through grinding AAs the content they faced had to be tweaked.  New content was not introduced at a rate that could keep up with the skills the players gained so old content was made more difficult.  While this was great for the hardcore AA gathering group it fundamentally changed the game for the larger and more casual player base.  In effect EQ Live became two games. </P> <P>By the time a casual player or group might get to an encounter that before could have been defeated with no extra abilites it now might take x number of AAs to be successful.  This caused a bog down effect as people tried to farm AAs.  Some of the best farming places for AAs also tended to displace those players who were in that zone because it was a challenge at their level..not a mere farm.  Other things happened as well, like new content equipment trickling down to lower levels, that trivialized encounters for players who were at a level they were designed for.</P> <P>...to those who say the EQ2 game system is easy and far from what they want, yet feel insulted when it is suggested they go play a game more to their liking I would say; Most people do not buy games that do not fit their play style or have mechanics they do not really like and then hope they can somehow fundamentally change the game mechanics once they start playing, rather most people play games that are designed from the start in a manner that suits them.</P> <P>...as far as the raid limit goes I am surprised at some of the consternation displayed.  Given there is a cap I would think this would entice the "raiders" even more as you cannot rely on sheer numbers and raids become much more strategic in their planning and implementation. </P> <P>...for those who believe the posters who are against an EQ Live AA type system were all casual players in the old game I would suggest you are mistaken.  Many of us are so vehemently against it because we experienced it first hand and saw what it did to the game over time.</P> <P> </P> <P>MSD </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As so many people in this thread like to point out... This is not EQL... It will not be the same aa system.  Also yes i was in eq for the whole evolution.  The game was not the golden game that everyone says it was before AA.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes i understand the reasons why you don't want AAs after 6 pages... but it still seems like a jealousy issue to me</P> <P><BR></P> <DIV>Everquest didn't go through these massive changes only cause of AA.  This is a game that went through 9 expansions.  More then another other mmo on market by far.  What are you gonna do? Keep it same as last one just alittle differant?  No so they made each one alittle harder.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AA was just the leveling system that they choose to use to allow someone to progress during these expansions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While AA was very good all the +100 hp (got even higher then that with agumentations and better loot later) and more gear over a ton of slots and all the other stats is also a HUGE factor on why things go the way they were.  AA were not the huge upgrades that you are bringing them out to be.   As a wizard i could spend a week of exping and get a chance to critical and maybe 3 mana a tick mana regen (this would be 24 AA)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes maybe this was a huge deal over years of expansions but... if i got one uber loot from even velious (before aa even existed) i could gain 100 hp 100 mana 5 mana a tick +25 all resists plus a helluva lot of other stats.  Eq was a MATURE game...  period</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:52 PM</span>

[Zuuljin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>If you can't understand why people don't want AAs after 6 pages of posts, I don't know what to tell you......</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>My theory is that once the page count reaches 2+, people dont bother to read it.  They just skip to the last page, read the last few comments, then make a post.  Which is a shame, because all the answers, opinions, and information are already there. =</DIV>

[Zuuljin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote: <P>As so many people in this thread like to point out... This is not EQL... It will not be the same aa system.  </P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>And if it were done differently, I dont think people would have a problem with it.   People are objecting to EQ1's way of doing AA's.   If your going to agree that system was poorly implimented, and EQ2's system should be different, then we do in fact agree.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Let me try to sort things out here.  My argument does not really have to do with AA's.  It has to do with endless advancement.  Whatever else you want to call it, thats what it breaks down too.  It is not hard to follow the logic train on this one.  If people can endlessly advance, then there will be a point where some people are SO far ahead, content will either have to be built around them and only them, or everything will be completely trivial to them.  This will split the game into 2 games, one for hardcore, and one for casuals.  So now what?  Well the EQ2 team has trouble keeping up content for 1 game, and you think it will be easier to build 2 sets of content?  I think not.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>AA would work, like I have posted before, if it were truely <EM>alternate</EM> advancement, and not pure advancement.   Lateral progression, tradeoffs, limited use of AA's would all work.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>And IMO, a level 50 SHOULD be about equal to any other level 50.  Thats what levels are, progression steps.  Anyone who is at the same step, should be about equal in power.  This is the core problem IMO.  Levels themselves should be something people work on.  Noone should have hit 50 after 3 months or whatever.  People should just NOW be hitting 50.  Everyone knows theres enough content, SOE just dropped the ball on this one.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Gear is different, because there is a cap.  You kill the best raid mob, get the best item, and your done.  You dont keep killing the same raid mob and getting better and better loot everytime you kill him.  therefore items, while making you more powerful, are still capped and do not create an imbalance, they just make you slightly better then those who dont have the items.</FONT></P> <P>Also yes i was in eq for the whole evolution.  The game was not the golden game that everyone says it was before AA.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT><FONT color=#66ff00>And yet it lasted what, 2-3 years without AA's?  And so far EQ2 hasnt even been out 1 year and people are already complaining.  This goes back to the problem that its too easy to level.</FONT></P> <DIV>Everquest didn't go through these massive changes only cause of AA.  This is a game that went through 9 expansions.  More then another other mmo on market by far.  What are you gonna do? Keep it same as last one just alittle differant?  No so they made each one alittle harder.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>A little harder would have been fine, but the difficulty seemed to increase exponentially as each expansion came out.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AA was just the leveling system that they choose to use to allow someone to progress during these expansions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>And thats fine, except there were just so many of them, and with the game being designed around 2 sets of people ( those who have em, and those who dont ) you would hit a wall halfway through the expansion where the 2 sets of content meet.  Now you grind and grind and grind untill you meet the demands, then move on.  But as more and more content was being designed for raiders, less and less content was being designed for casuals.   </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>In EQ1's defense though, their last few expansions have been trying to fix this.  There havnt been any new AA's in the last 2 expansions, and there are not (as far as I have seen) in the upcoming expansion either.  AA exp is pretty high across the board and its fairly easy to pull a few AA an hour in a good group.  More single group content building up points to buy better gear ( an idea EQ2 should do, sort of like AA but you spend the points to buy items, like LDON ) and relaxing the flagging and raid requirements.   </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While AA was very good all the +100 hp (got even higher then that with agumentations and better loot later) and more gear over a ton of slots and all the other stats is also a HUGE factor on why things go the way they were.  AA were not the huge upgrades that you are bringing them out to be.   As a wizard i could spend a week of exping and get a chance to critical and maybe 3 mana a tick mana regen (this would be 24 AA)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I agree that gear had alot to do with it, but like I said above, it was still capped.  While there was a cap on AA's, it required so many that, for all but the insane, it was endless.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes maybe this was a huge deal over years of expansions but... if i got one uber loot from even velious (before aa even existed) i could gain 100 hp 100 mana 5 mana a tick +25 all resists plus a helluva lot of other stats.  Eq was a MATURE game...  period</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Of course it was, and thats why alot of people around here went to EQ2, because we couldnt handle what EQ1 brought to the table.  This is why we do not want to turn this into EQ1 with better graphics.  </FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <SPAN class=date_text>07-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:52 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes, there were LOTS of reasons why casuals got left behind in EQ1, from insane raid requirments, huge gear imbalance, and time restraints, but AA was also a contributing factor.  It was not the end all be all of why casuals did not like EQ1.   However, it was a contributing factor, and as such, it would be best not to repeat it in EQ2.</DIV>

[Cecil_Stri]

<P>AA wasn't endless... Yes they had alot of em but it was not endless.</P> <P> </P> <P>Plus once you get the few good AAs (not many aas were that good to be honest) you were left getting things like +2 FR... +2 int.. ect ect</P> <P> </P> <P>to get 10int 10char 10str 10dex 10agi 10 wis ... would be 30 aa.  Thats 30 level 50 levels. (not eq2 levels for those who didn't play eq)</P> <P>Thats not much of an upgrade.. and it IS capped.  If every AA was amazing.. and added a ton of power to a character.. or even just alittle power to a character i would see your argument.  But adding 2 int or 2 str ect ect is negligable </P> <P>This game is not going towards eqls way... it is far from it.. what i don't get is you seem to want everything to go your way.  If you think them making encounters harder is the steps they are taking to become more eqlish then you don't understand the problem. <P>The problem is... RIght now the game is very imbalanced in the high end raids.  Right now you NEED(require) certain buffs and then once you have the buffs the encounters became trivial.  That is why the combat upgrade is so important because right now things are horribly broken high end.  Its very hard for a hard core guild to run smoothly due to the fact everything rests on this buff combo... if you don't have it scratch raiding for the day.. which in turn makes people want to leave which in turn puts you back further.  This game isn't gonna be like eql and you really shouldn't beat your chest and say the sky is falling thinking it is.  Its easy to judge when you look at it from the outside but things need to change when it comes to raids. <P>  <P>With the combat upgrade i hope the balance will be restored and you can raid without being so dependant on certain classes but.. as it is now they will proly keep beefing stuff up so it doesn't break things in the long run</P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:20 PM</span>

[Drumly]

<div></div><p>There seem to be so many different "implementations" of what could be called alternate advancement. Status could become more meaningful other then just being used to pay the rent . . .  <span>:smileyhappy:</span> . . . the number of quests that you have done activates abilities.  Being a slayer of something opens up an alternative skill for use against that mob type.  Finishing "x" number of quests in a zone reduces the cost of a boat ride there.When I hear AA I think of the point system in EQL and I have to admit . . . it just made the rest of you so much further away.  Honestly, my friend who joined last year and wanted to raid ended up buying a character so that he could raid.  That is a bad solution IMHO.The real problem is that if (when) the raiders and "uber" grinders get too far ahead of the rest of us they will stop designing as much content that the rest of us can play.  I played EQL for 3 and half years . . . never caught up and there are huge swaths of the game that I have never seen.  Never could because I was simply too far behind those who were already playing there. Seems a shame since I pay the same nickel that everyone else does to be in this imaginary world.  This isn't jealousy, this is fair value for my dollars.  Really, for the first bit that PoP was out the only thing I could see was PoK!!  Still haven't seen the majority of PoP.  Yet I paid my subscription just like the rest.  Sigh.  :smileyhappy: I just could never get caught up to the others and so there wasn't a group developing at the same place in the game that I was.I understand the desire of people who have reached 50 to have something meaningful to do. I like how the mentoring system works . . . if my girlfriend decides to play in 6 months then I will be able to play down.  I wonder if instead of mentoring and giving the xp to the person I am working with I . . . and  I throw this out as just a crazy thought . . . having read the pages and having had way too many beer (curse you pit champion!) . . . you could advance yourself again.Maybe  you could work on an alternate self.  Not an alt . . .but rather another spiritual you.  You play a warden that is at level 50 and you work on an alternate self in another archetype. You start out with no equipment and perhaps a penalty for it being your second you . . . (always minus a shard for instance or no vitality or an xp penalty like when mentoring). If you are working on another you and could get it up to level 50 now you would have two choices when your raid is decked out and is short a healer they leave in the middle, . . . hey you have another one instead of the monk which your guild has three of. Again . . . it is the same character in the same slot and you can switch just by using an ability.  That would double the grind for those of you who like it, increases the utility of the player which gives them more diversity when it comes to playing through the content (there are whole zones I have never played the first time around), and increases the difficulty of playing through again.</p><p>Maybe you work on a "Star Trek" shadow of yourself.  Starts out back at level one but is an evil twin of you . . . allowing you to play the content that was made for the other city.  I like the idea of your alignment having meaning . . . although currently I think it becomes trivial once you are out of TS or Nek</p><p>I suppose like all ideas some will hate it and some will like it.  I know that there would be balancing issues but really . . . it is a form of alternate advancement that might extend the value of play for those that play lots and let those of us who have time for one main guy to not be too far behind.  After all, I might like raiding with you someday . . . if I can get there.</p><p>Are there any other Alternative "Alternate Advancement" ideas?</p><p>Respectfully,The Tang</p><div></div>

[Deadjest]

<P>I don't see how you can say we were jealous, I was one of the people with Uber AA, my wizard had just over 250 AA and my SK had around 500 AA.    The experience for both class when it came to AA was WAY DIFFERENT.</P> <P>As a Wizard I could muddle through without massive amounts of AA but as a Tank, you hit brick walls in game content.    As a Tank AA had a MASSIVE effect on play ability,  all the healers could feel it.   Many a time a healer wanted me to tank over a higher geard Warrior with only around 70 AA.</P> <P>And as a poster above very well explained, content constantly got upgrade around and for people with AA,  it was not advertised that way but it was and it was glaringly so.   I had a friend who started a Pally Alt, cought up to my level  and was about on par with me in gear, but only had 50 AA.   He Tanked like a preschooler compared to me.   And he worked HARD just to reach that point.</P> <P>I am not against a system of abilities simuliar to AA.</P> <P>I am against a system of abilites like the ones that were done in EQL and with the Grinding that was involved.   Its one thing to upgrade, its another to make Trival the content you were in a few months earlier cause of the new AA and have Sony turn around and upgrade that content and build more for those like me with Tons of AA and now my friends cant even come there witout a babysitter or take gaming as a second job.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<P>But thats just the point... to get the tanking abilities were minimal in AA cost.  After that they just became much less useful</P> <P> </P> <P>It was gear that the encounters got based around....  Velious was when uber guild started to just shoot above everyone else... which was before AA</P> <P> </P> <P>High end SoV loot blew anything away that you could get before... This is what they designed encounters around ... the power you gained (and it was massive) from these uber loots</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes AA was a factor but it wasn't near as big as the loot... If anything AA allowed casual players to get to the current expansion without raiding the last one</P> <P> </P> <P>My gear gave me 20 mana a tick..  increased damage(per nuke).. lower mana cost... less hate... a ton of hp mana and rests..  </P> <P> </P> <P>My aa gave me less stats then my gear less no increased damage (besides the chance to crit which helped alot) Also lowered mana cost and less hate 6 mana a tick mana regen.</P> <P> </P> <P>I got the same stuff i got with aa with my gear cept my gear was much more effective then my AA.  If given a choice from running around without gear or without AA... I would sacrafice AA hands down.  Its easy to assume that AA was the problem but.. it really wasn't.. AA gave such decreased gains after you got the good stuff that gear was just the most important factor of eqL</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>I'm not gonna lie and say more AA didn't make someone better then someone without it,  but it was much less so then someone being level 55 compared to 60 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would be happy with AAs that would allow me to switch my cold nukes to fire and fire to cold.. or make buffs last longer... reduce recast time of single target buffs..  Stuff like that would just be convience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But on the other hand you should have a few AAs that make you better in combat as well... </DIV>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<DIV>A suggestion then for AA's that I doubt very many people will like, but might prove to be deeply entertaining as well. (At least, I like the thought behind it) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Make AA's have no appreciative gameplay value. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, that's right. Make them fluff. Want to personalize your character? AA for specific titles you can get. AA for specific armor design to be impressive and look better then standard armor but with no game breaking abiliities. Hell, have AA's that allow you to change the appearance of your current armor scheme to afford you the same protection but with a unique, customized look. AA's to get unique pets for your rooms. AA's that allow you to purchase Vendor items from your room instead of from actual vendors. (Ok, a little more game effecting then my other ideas, but you get the point)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems to me that this would allow for those of us higher level players to do something besides harvest and Writ Grind, and also reward those who have put in that time and effort to get to 50. At the same time, this would allow more casual players to still fit into groups/raids because they wouldn't be completely outclassed by those with 6 million AA points.</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>I don't know what to tell you.</P> <P>With all the AA I had I could Tank way better then people two grades  higher in gear then me, that is the way it was.   It was different for my Wizard, except for the AA Mana regen and Crit abilities, you didnt even come close to what it felt like with a Tank.</P> <P>Heck I could strip my Wizard of alot of gear and still be very effective,  I cannot say the same for my Tank.</P> <P>If EQ2 comes up with a system of AA that is built just for EQ2 and not like EQL, I am all for it.   But it can't have this huge grinding process with it or again it will have a negitive effect on the majority of the players.</P> <P>Biggest problem with AA is in each expansion, alot of the AA were add on's to already present AA that kept stacking and stacking which I think is what many forget, it wasnt each set of expansion of AAs, but how they kept stacking on top of each other like a brick wall, AND THAT is what caused the uber effect.</P> <P>Which in turn lead it bleeding down into every day content.</P> <P>And that is what I have issue with,  if you have to make EQ2 a second job then the fun is over for the majority of the players.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>Well i already said my point on that deadjester ... i just gotta say that i just don't agree with you on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know tank defensive aa were a big deal but it wasn't that many AA as well... a warrior with 70aa should have had most of the defensive ones and if he didn't and went offensive insteed... you should be tanking better then him</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That was the best part of aa... you could get offensive AA with a warrior and do pretty nice dps while another gets defensive ones and could tank better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah you would have people that had both but.. why let them ruin your fun ...  (The encounter thing i just totaly disagree with....  being someone that has been in a casual guild turning into an raiding guild in eql we didn't do it by grinding as much AA as possible.. we worked on learning the encounters and failing and trying again till we got the tactics down)</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>Well if you are a tank and you want to tank, then there is somthing wrong if you go offense instead of defense.  And it was a bit of AA.   You just couldnt buy AA to stack it, you had to have AA period even after you bought what you wanted, you had to have so much befor you could advence to the next set, so it was not that easy.</P> <P>But thats fine, we can agree to disagree.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<P>Well i'll just post hard facts and let people that didn't play eq come up with an opinion themselves.</P> <P> </P> <P>To get every single defensive aa went exactly like this</P> <P> </P> <P>5 points into stamina</P> <P>1 point into agi (these two can be any stat not just these but these were best defensive stats)</P> <P>12 into combat agility </P> <P>12 into combat stability</P> <P>12 into improved natural durability (basicly each of these had levels... combat agility 1 would cost 2.. combat agility 2 would cost 4 and combat agility 3 would cost 6)</P> <P>5 points into physical enhancement (which improves the 3 above)</P> <P>This was all the defensive ones when AA first came out. 47 AA total (AA was less then a level.. much less.)</P> <P>Next came planes of power the defensive aa you got here were.</P> <P>9 points planar durability </P> <P>thats it for this expansion so 9 AA in about 6 months (56 aa total in about a year)</P> <P>This went on a similar pattern with more expansions adding afew more defensive AAs </P> <P> </P> <P>Disclaimer .... This is only list of defensive AAs up to pop.  They have alot more AAs including extra critical hits and damage doing AAs.  </P> <P> </P> <P>So basicly what i am trying tosay here.. 56 AA in a year to get all the defensive AAs... thats not bad at all since i could get about 3 a day if i worked on it hard (1 a day easy)</P> <P>Maybe eq2 shouldn't go down this path but AA wasn't the problem with eqL... If anything it allowed casual gamers to compete with the uber gear</P>

[Deadjest]

<P>I find it interesting that you didnt tell them the whole story.   You added up all the defensive AA but you didnt tell them how much AA you had to spend in other abilities befor you could advance into the next tier to buy more AA of the same line.</P> <P>Nor did you mention all the other abilites that made up the power of a certain tanks that added in to their tanking.</P> <P>You didnt bring up Critical AAs that make your spells crit.</P> <P>You didnt bring up the all the different types of AA that added on to your life taps which if you had Critical AA make your life taps Crit.</P> <P>You didnt add in Weapon Life Taps which needed to be upgraded</P> <P>You didnt add in the healing AA that was needed that would make the Life Taps Proc harder and IF  you had Spell Casting Fury you might have the proc for extra healing and a critical hit.</P> <P>The List is VERY LONG.</P> <P>And Yes I played a Shadow Knight.</P> <P>The AA we needed was in the hundreds.   It wasnt just Defensive AA that let us tank but a whole slew of Special AA abilities that let us tank.</P> <P>What did you do go read up on Warriors?   Picked the least Tank of them all with the fewest AA? </P> <P>Are you also going to tell the none EQL players that Warriors had some Major Disciplines from older expansions when they had tried a different system?   That had yet again a major effect on them so that they NEEDED LESS AA then the other Tanks to be Effective.</P> <P>I am impressed by what you looked up and even more impressed by what you DIDNT tell them.</P> <P>There were so many AA needed for some Tanks that I would have to reactivate my account just figure it all out again.</P> <P>Btw you didnt mention the Zones you needed to get to which needed KEYS from Quests that required that you kill major Named Mobs so that you could access the zones that had even higher KEY QUESTS to zones you needed for Uber XP to get the massive amount of AA you needed.</P> <P>And if you were a casual or mid grade char, and not in a heavy guild, how time consuming all that was and all the pick raids you would have to do and just HOPE that this raid finely succeded.</P> <P>If your going to tell a story, tell them the whole story.</P> <DIV>I guess the Agree to Disagree is not in effect after all.</DIV>

[Cecil_Stri]

Umm yeah i did... that is all the prereqs too <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I put in a disclaimer saying i didn't add the offensive AAs.. the crits ect</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6 for sub class</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>12 for class</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your reaching now and just getting argumentitive... i put the basic info of what it takes to get a defensive aa list (all of em up to pop) and your trying to add on stuff i said i wasn't adding on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes you can add more to do more damage which makes you gain more hate and some other stuff but this is what makes it so you can take a hit better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is what makes AA great.. so many differant ways to develop your character... you could be a warrior class and go dps.. could be a scout and get some tanking ability (not nearly like a tank tho)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Full list is much bigger but MOST of the list are stats... you can get +10 all stats and resists.. actually here</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq.crgaming.com/archetype/default.asp?Action=Cat&ClassId=7" target=_blank>http://eq.crgaming.com/archetype/default.asp?Action=Cat&ClassId=7</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Welcome to check it yourself everyone and see that i did not bend the truth in any way</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cept i did miss lightning reflexes and innate Defense.. which was an honest miss. (which does add quite abit of AA)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Planes of power had no prereqs fyi cept the ones that made abilities decrease in cast time</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:34 PM</span>

[themysterious]

I, as a player who could not stand EQ1 after PoP, still think AAs are a good idea. I think however that they should be approached differently in EQ2... I believe there should be 'traditional' AAs, (10 stat ect), but I believe there should be some branching AAs that make classes different in non-critical ways. A warlock for example could do a set of AAs that would take them down the path of poison, or disease... but not both. The branches should be balanced, but offer a way to make your character that little bit more unique. Perhaps after getting all AAs in the branch you would become a different class, or mabey just get a title. I think as well there should be teirs of AAs... at say 20, 30, 40, 50 ect and that if you want to do the lesser AAs you have to mentor (but because you are doing AAs for the lower teir you are getting proper AAXP)... mabey there needs to be a way to self-lower levels for soloers. <div></div>

[Drumly]

As long as it doesn't make it so that two level 50's are far apart ( a little bit is fine) I think the idea of aa's letting you specialize down one path or another would be great.  More gains along the lines of the spell upgrades we recieve at every ten would be cool.  Other than the group cures which pretty much seem manditory for healers, the others are not particularly unbalancing.  Racial traits are another area where aa's might be usable.  As long as they do not become critical to the game or you might not get a group because you don't have a particular aa ( I was kicked out for not having dire charm once, can you believe it?) then great.  The game pays players in experience and I can only imagine it would be frustrating to be playing and not getting the experience anymore. For the record . . . I stopped playing when EQ2 came out.  I was level 64 with 14 aa's.  14 represented a lot of work for me.  To the player that doesn't max out the levels it is xp that is spent trying to get skills that would make me desirable in groups.  I somewhat disagree that they were easy to get for the casual player (I was 5 hours a week or so) and that they let me help keep up with the uber gear people were getting.  They were things that I had to grind out experience for in order to make my toon playable in the higher end content and when I got there . . . nobody else was playing there so my skills were pretty much useless anyways.  If there is a way to make AA's desirable so that people keep playing when their level is maxed out and doesn't unbalance the content so much that someone can't complete the same tasks without the AA's then I am all for it.  I do think that there might be some other solutions to lateral advancement though that might be worth looking at as well. The Tang

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>Main reason they were harder to get for people who played for very shot periods of time in eql is the fact that soloing was almost non existant.  Not even 1/3rd of the classes could solo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>that isn't an issue in this game</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The path thing sounds kinda cool but you would need a way to respec it if you did it that way.. or devs would be forced to balance even more and they have enough balance stuff to deal with already.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 PM</span>

[Zuuljin]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote:<BR> <P>Well i'll just post hard facts and let people that didn't play eq come up with an opinion themselves.</P> <P> </P> <P>To get every single defensive aa went exactly like this</P> <P> </P> <P>5 points into stamina</P> <P>1 point into agi (these two can be any stat not just these but these were best defensive stats)</P> <P>12 into combat agility </P> <P>12 into combat stability</P> <P>12 into improved natural durability (basicly each of these had levels... combat agility 1 would cost 2.. combat agility 2 would cost 4 and combat agility 3 would cost 6)</P> <P>5 points into physical enhancement (which improves the 3 above)</P> <P>This was all the defensive ones when AA first came out. 47 AA total (AA was less then a level.. much less.)</P> <P>Next came planes of power the defensive aa you got here were.</P> <P>9 points planar durability </P> <P>thats it for this expansion so 9 AA in about 6 months (56 aa total in about a year)</P> <P>This went on a similar pattern with more expansions adding afew more defensive AAs </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>PoP also had ID and LR, 5 levels of each, at 2,4,6,8,10 or 30 each, so add 60 to your 56 and your at 116.  Also planer power, ups your max stats, more sta = more hp = better tanking.  Thats another 10, so now at 126 needed.  Starting to get significant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also played a SK, so I know what he's talking about.  Yes, improved crits and added procs were NEEDED to tank.  Because SK's proced lifetaps.  Up when I quit, those with max AA's could proc for 500+ NORMAL proc, and crit for over 2k heals.  And your going to tell me that doesnt effect tanking? BS.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, lets keep on adding shall we.  Thats another 18 for soul abrasion,  casting fury, add 12, theft of life add 6, so we're at what now, 162?  And thats JUST PoP.  Guess what, as I said earlier, it wasnt even that big a problem in PoP!! So your right, that isnt that much.  Except that the very next expansion REQUIRED that you had at LEAST that to even get past the 3rd zone (first 2 zones were greens and/or low blues, yay mad green exp)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So to really see how it gets worse, lets keep adding.  GoD added advanced theft of life, so add 10 more.   OoW added RM and DI for 50 more total.  Fury of magic, 18 more,  ToC + 18, spiritual corrosion + 15 and soul theif + 15, and I think we're done with pretty much JUST tanking.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grats, 288 AA to tank the latest content.  Hell, ill even give you the benifit of the doubt that you dont need that many and shave off 88 AA's.  thats still 200 [Removed for Content] AA's to even compete with new content.  Thats not counting other AA's youll want that improve resists, damage, run speed, or extra spell slot or added buff slots or improved pet buffs.  But we're talking just tanking here, with ALTERNATE advancement.  Well seeing as your first 288 AA's are going to those abilities, it doesnt seem very alternate to me, it seems pretty required and a set path.   Sure you 'could' go for all damage AA's, but who would want a SK for their damage when they could get a real DPS class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why did I continue past PoP when you stopped there?  Because it wasnt a problem up to there, so your correct.  But my point is that was pretty much the breaking point.   Everything went downhill from there, speaking in terms of what was required to move ahead.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets now say that a 'casual' player can gain about 1 AA a day.  It will take 288 days, about 9 months, to get just where we are at NOW.  But the game will have progressed 9 months worth, so they will STILL be behind.  By the time they finnaly catch up to everyone, it could be years.  And that sure doesnt sound too good to the casual players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Phew, way to in depth. =(</DIV></DIV>

[Drumly]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cecil_Strife wrote:<div></div> <div>Main reason they were harder to get for people who played for very shot periods of time in eql is the fact that soloing was almost non existant.  Not even 1/3rd of the classes could solo</div> <div> </div> <div>that isn't an issue in this game</div> <div> </div></blockquote>If I have to follow in your exact footsteps and earn the AA's before I can move on, either solo or not, the Alternative Advancements are no longer alternatives, they are manditory. All I am suggesting is that any AA methods should be working at keeping those who are maxed out occupied while others keep working on getting to the next level.  If I have to stop gaining xp when the expansion comes out to earn AA's then it is no longer "optional" tweaking of my character. It is the necessary part of my evolution. Now the AA's become the next step  . .. and people like me never get to play the content that people like you are playing. If I have to follow in the exact footsteps of a player who is playing many more hours then me . . . I never have enough hours.  But I shouldn't need to.  If you are working on AA's at level 60 and I have just become level 60 we should be able to group/raid whatever without it feeling like those who have been there awhile are taking me in as a burden since I don't have the special super powers that they have.  <span>:smileyhappy: I don't begrudge high levels wanting to make their character more powerful . . . I am just wary of the EQL experience and how it slowly made players like myself unable to play the content that I was shelling out for.  Will there be a gap between the insane grinders and the casual player? Of course.  There is now.  I still haven't made 50. The ideal situation is to have something that keeps people at the top playing and happy while those underneath catch up. Respectfuly, The Tang </span></span><div></div>

[Deadjest]

<P>Btw Offensive AA is not needed for Tanking, groups don't hire a Tank for his Offensive ability when they can get a Heavy DPS Class.</P> <P>Also as a previous poster just said, AA became Mandatory which is my main complaint, if you didnt have them you could NOT advance past a certain point.  Period.</P> <P>As for AA themselves I am not against that concept, I am against the EQL concept of them.</P> <P>I am all for a system of advancement that is BUILT for EQ2, and it doesnt turn into a grinding match and is Truely Alternitive Advancement, not Required Advancement.</P> <P>If you have to turn EQ into a second job, then its not right.   EQ2 is a game that should be FUN to play and a Hobby.    Not a replacment for Real Life which is what happend if you wanted to keep up in the old system.</P>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>Btw Offensive AA is not needed for Tanking, groups don't hire a Tank for his Offensive ability when they can get a Heavy DPS Class.</P> <P>Also as a previous poster just said, AA became Mandatory which is my main complaint, if you didnt have them you could NOT advance past a certain point.  Period.</P> <P>As for AA themselves I am not against that concept, I am against the EQL concept of them.</P> <P>I am all for a system of advancement that is BUILT for EQ2, and it doesnt turn into a grinding match and is Truely Alternitive Advancement, not Required Advancement.</P> <P>If you have to turn EQ into a second job, then its not right.   EQ2 is a game that should be FUN to play and a Hobby.    Not a replacment for Real Life which is what happend if you wanted to keep up in the old system.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>One slight disagreement on your statement, Well useing the EQlive experiance where there really was only one raid tank class (warriors), I played a paladin (made it to 66 and around 160AA's, Including the defensive ones) in that game, you had to basicly upgrade a lot of the non tanking AA's because you wouldn't be tanking in raids (unless you where so over equiped for the encounter it was sick), so you had to try filling other nitches.  Heck Rangers where better at emergency raid tanking then SK/Pallys due to their disicipline (now that was a REAL bad idea btw LOL).   I tried tanking some of the lower end POP raids when a warrior went down .... Getting smacked twice and dieing sucked LOL.</P> <P>Granted in EQ2 we don't have the tanking disparity that we had in EQlive (hopefully it never will).  But, my guess Guardians will remain the optimal raid/high end tank for most of the encounters .... Although it seems some encounters will be groomed for the other tanks. which is a hopeful sign.</P> <P>On to the orginal subject, sorry for going off on a tangent.  Putting AA's in the game in it self would not have to be game breaking .... As long as they are VERY careful, you have to make it so the people that are not at the total end game aren't so far behind that they will never catch up.  The branch idea from a previous poster I thought was a good one, but you know some will still be unhappy because they want to become superman/women with aa's (not saying all, so don't flame please).  But giving level 50s/60's something to work for if done right should be looked at, heck I hope to be 50 someday LOL.  BUT NO EXPANSIONS THAT DEPEND ON YOU HAVING AA"S or the most ubber gear, don't want to waste money on an expansion like I did in GoD (sorry, but still miffed on that one)</P> <P>V/R</P> <P>Blackoath 40th Troll Shadow Knight</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>These are warrior AAs i am listing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sks couldn't even tank raid mobs effectively like a warrior.. that is a balance issue /defensive just made warriors the prime tank for raids (plus the better mitigation)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also...  The next expansion after Pop didn't even add AA...  matter of fact... i don't think LDON had AA either.  That is alot of time to catch up if you get 1 aa a day </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With every stam AA you could get LESS stam then you could get on one uber item....  Yes they stack tho but like i said in 3 posts now.. i did not add stats to my list.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:56 AM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Actualy Margan you may have missed somthing, from what I read you post doesnt really disagree with mine and confirms my other posts to.   As a Tank we had to have lots off AA compared to other class's,  Specialy if you were a Paladin or Shadow Knight.</P> <P>C</P> <P>I am pretty sure that OoW or GoD or both, had AA to, matter of fact I think it had a Ton of AA.   I may take the time to look it up later.   But I am pretty sure I grinded a TON of AA there to.</P> <P>But the thing is Wars were one of the least amout of AA class's.    If you look up Paladin and Shawdow Knight or Ranger for that matter you will see we have close to 50% more AA class wise then Wars, maybe even more.    And we had to have it to tank properly.</P> <P>Not to mention there were points where you needed AA that had nothing to do with Tanking just to reach the Tanking AA.</P> <P>You had to get 6 AA that was non tank related right off the bat  just to advance to the next Tier where some Defensive AA was, and it went like that for a few tiers.</P> <P>You could not just buy the game and go work on Defensive AA without meeting other requirments.  In Omens, you had meet Level Requirements to just to HAVE certain lvls of AA</P> <P>So it was not Alternitive System, it was a MANDATORY SYSTEM.    </P> <P>There were alot of big guilds you could not even join if you didnt have at least 150+ in AA and you had to have certain basic AA, cause they were needed for raiding.</P> <P>And that is my issue, in EQL it was two different systems that in the end feed off each other, you could not get certain AA without lvling, and you could not reach certain zones without AA to get good XP to reach better XP Zones.     And it was enormous for some class's.</P> <P>So my issue is with the old system, cause all it did was cement the hold for people who chose EQ as a second full time job.</P> <P>I don't have a issue if they come up with somthing compleatly different and EQ2 like and does not require endless amount of cruching where new players don't have a chance in hell without 30 hrs a week to devote to EQ2.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Deadjester on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:46 PM</span>

[Cecil_Stri]

<P>You just proved my point tho jester... It wasn't AA that ruined things for casual but the underlining inbalance in the underlining system.</P> <P> </P> <P>You had to get AA to become a useful class.  This problem existed way before AA and AA just helped fix it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes in eq they used AA as a patch fix... rangers.. wizards.. sks.. palies.. and many more classes had little use.. the only really useful classes were the holy trinity (eq term for cleric warrior slowers)</P> <P>You shouldn't condeem the whole aa system because it was glazed over horrible inbalances in the system before AA</P> <p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:43 PM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>ROFL, that is to funny. </P> <P>You would rather see a flawed grinding system added to the game then see the game itself fixed, that is to funny, I think that about sums up your arguments.</P> <P>Logic?   Ahh heck, lets just add a cumbersome system to a already broken system, ya that the ticket.</P> <P>Surely two wrongs make a right, right?</P> <P>lol</P>

[Drumly]

<span><blockquote><hr>Cecil_Strife wrote:<p>You just proved my point tho jester... It wasn't AA that ruined things for casual but the underlining inbalance in the system.</p> <p>You had to get AA to become a useful class.  This problem existed way before AA and AA just helped fix it.</p> </blockquote>No.  You had to have AA in order to compete with your own class.  Disregarding the fact that the classes had an imbalance, the simple fact is that a level 65 druid with 0 AA's didn't have the same playability as a 65 druid with 100 AA's. Mind you, they both had a tough time getting a group.  That was class imbalance. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> I think what people are saying is that if there is going to be an AA system in EQ2 that it is the level that should be the most important factor for accessing content and getting groups.  AA's cannot have the importance or game changing status that it did in EQL.  That was a mistake in the system. The Tang</span><div></div>

[Cecil_Stri]

<P>Wow your a real card...  you read half of what i say and then put conclusions on it.  twice now you have twisted what i said to a lie</P> <P> </P> <P>I never said add a flawed system... I said the general system in eqL was flawed </P> <P> </P> <P>SKs were gimped.. palies were gimped..  so many other classes (including wizards) were just sub par to the others.and people used AA to try to ungimp them.  The devs never got around to balancing the classes in eq1.. not once did they really try to fix a class they just always built on top of it and saw where the pieces landed.</P> <P>You are twisting what i said and acting like i am saying do the same for eq2</P> <P> </P> <P>Eq2 they are ACTUALLY fixing classes.  Wizards were horribly broken at the start of this game now they are playable. </P> <P>AA doesn't gotta be like the way it was in eqL.  EQ2 is also a WHOLE differant game.  The warrior differances aren't as huge.  The healing differance isn't as well </P> <P>I was talking about the base system not the AA system.  EQ as a whole was unbalanced.  Very unbalanced...  You could make a whole guild outta warriors clerics enchanters and shamans and do just fine.  Others added some bit of convience but they were not needed and could actually be sub par.  A very well equiped warrior could out damage a wizard for example</P> <P>Classes are MUCH MUCH more balanced in this game then eq1 (although they still have a way to go)</P> <P>Yes a level 60 druid would be more wanted then a level 60 druid with 100aa...</P> <P> </P> <P>But a level 60 druid would be more wanted then a level 55 as well... </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:46 PM</span>

[SavinDwa]

<DIV>I've always disliked the AAs for a number of reasons.  the major one is that I like the ability of EQ2 to allow casual and power gamers to co-exist together.  I don't mean "be on the same server" I mean do stuff together.  In EQ1 the difference bewteen the uber loot and non uber loot really made a huge difference in the players ability, the AAs made that even worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ2 although equipment is still very important the gap does not seem quite as large.  I am prt of a pretty small guild (the guild is currently spread over about 10 different games LOL, so we only have about 15-20 actively playing EQ2 at the moment).  But we have our own crafters and we can stay competitive.   But AAs always seem to be those things that really allow pwoer games to get permanately onto a different plane.  Why do i care?  because then the game gets tuned to be a challenge for them and outright impossible for the rest of us.  So far QE2 has avoided this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I hit level 50 with my adventure I will start another one, use it to help out friends, do some quests, and take the time to really furnish a house.  All of this can be fun and none of it makes me even more uber.  Maybe eventually they will have to add 10 more levels --- but it doesn't really seem required .. just give us new quests </DIV>

[SavinDwa]

<DIV>I've always disliked the AAs for a number of reasons.  the major one is that I like the ability of EQ2 to allow casual and power gamers to co-exist together.  I don't mean "be on the same server" I mean do stuff together.  In EQ1 the difference bewteen the uber loot and non uber loot really made a huge difference in the players ability, the AAs made that even worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ2 although equipment is still very important the gap does not seem quite as large.  I am prt of a pretty small guild (the guild is currently spread over about 10 different games LOL, so we only have about 15-20 actively playing EQ2 at the moment).  But we have our own crafters and we can stay competitive.   But AAs always seem to be those things that really allow pwoer games to get permanately onto a different plane.  Why do i care?  because then the game gets tuned to be a challenge for them and outright impossible for the rest of us.  So far QE2 has avoided this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I hit level 50 with my adventure I will start another one, use it to help out friends, do some quests, and take the time to really furnish a house.  All of this can be fun and none of it makes me even more uber.  Maybe eventually they will have to add 10 more levels --- but it doesn't really seem required .. just give us new quests and </DIV>

[SavinDwa]

s <DIV>I've always disliked the AAs for a number of reasons.  the major one is that I like the ability of EQ2 to allow casual and power gamers to co-exist together.  I don't mean "be on the same server" I mean do stuff together.  In EQ1 the difference bewteen the uber loot and non uber loot really made a huge difference in the players ability, the AAs made that even worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ2 although equipment is still very important the gap does not seem quite as large.  I am prt of a pretty small guild (the guild is currently spread over about 10 different games LOL, so we only have about 15-20 actively playing EQ2 at the moment).  But we have our own crafters and we can stay competitive.   But AAs always seem to be those things that really allow pwoer games to get permanately onto a different plane.  Why do i care?  because then the game gets tuned to be a challenge for them and outright impossible for the rest of us.  So far QE2 has avoided this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I hit level 50 with my adventure I will start another one, use it to help out friends, do some quests, and take the time to really furnish a house.  All of this can be fun and none of it makes me even more uber.  Maybe eventually they will have to add 10 more levels --- but it doesn't really seem required .. just give us new quests and new quests with new zones and new gimicks and it can still be a lot of fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really want to challenge the super players give them something to really shoot for, like the fastest time to cover a course around the world (Journey is half the fun) or quickest time to clear an instance zone.  lets say my character owns the record for the fastest trip around the world, why should I get fast boots as a reward?  It should be enough that I hold the record.  lets say someone beats my record .. what do I do?  use my faster boots to smassh my old record?  There is no skill in that.  the skill would be trying to cut my time with exactly they same equipment and skills I had the lasst time I did it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway .. I'm just not a great proponent all the reward always becoming "more uber"</DIV>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>In eq1 what kept people from mingling was the flag system. Not AA</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Flag system was proly the worst system possible for removing interaction of the two gaming types... period.. i hated it... most people i know hated it... </DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>Hahahaha now your saying that AA didnt have a heavy seperation value, I just love it, hahaha.</P> <P>Keep digging that hole, I don't even have to work at this post anymore lol.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>I must have really gotten to you... I mean if you spent as much time trying to level your AA as much as you are trying to belittle me (and not really doin a good job at it) maybe you wouldn't have been left behind <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just post after post of twisting what i say and not even doin a good job at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your just getting personal with your posts now and that just needs to stop.  If it frustrates you so much maybe you should step back and take a look if its really worth it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Flags did heavily seperate people... way way more then AA could have..  to say it didn't and AA is at fault is ignorant and your just reaching to make your point.  Your lieing to the poeple who don't know better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets just use some logic here... AA makes someone stronger... Flags made it so more power character gets a zone that casuals couldn't even enter... hmm lets see.. what seperates more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doesn't take that much logic to figure that out</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:32 PM</span>

[Khims]

<P>hmm deadjester.. did you play eqL?</P> <P> </P> <P>Seems like your clueless on flags and aa</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>I was a recruiter for an "uber" guild in everquest 1.  We did require certain AA but it was about 40 or so... easily gotten at that time since game has had AA for about a year then.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main thing that kept players from joining were flags.  If you didn't have em you couldn't join.  Which was a vicious cycle because if you weren't in a guild that was pretty powerful you couldn't get them.  (for people who didnt play eq to get a flag almost always involved killing a very powerful mob). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After awhile i left eq.. for about a year and a half.  Came back and i fell way behind everyone else in my guild.  Went through the recruitment process (had about a fifth of the aa everyone else did) and low and behold.. I required all these differant flags that i couldn't get without a guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never could keep up with the AA of people in my guild cause i didn't really have the time.. yet that never held me back from getting groups with my guildies... and finaly my lack of AA didn't hold me back from joining the guild again..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do admit AA system was not perfect,  but no system in any game is.  They all have flaws and people who disagree with them.  Right now you can find someone posting something negative about every system in this game.. from crafting to questing to raiding to buying a house.  You can expect that cause of all the differant styles and opinions.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2 is not the same game as EQ1... To say that casual players are just gonna get thrown to the side just doesn't make sense to me... Look at all the things they have changed for casual people.. Many zones have been added.. Whole zones revamped to allow people to solo better.  Splitpaw even allows soloers to have a chance to get loot as good as a dragon can drop,  and i can truly say i am happy for you guys.  I'm glad that you guys are having fun and making this game healthy and diverse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now i can't say that I am happy with my game play tho.  I log in.. do a couple of quests (that are horribly boring the 10th or so time you do them) .. wait for a raid.. maybe harvest or try to find some money.  Many people may say that i rushed through the game and didn't exp it but thats not true at all.  I've been in every dungeon.. finished every major quest access and heritage.  I even help people that are lower level and share with them the knowledge i have learned through my adventures.. but its all rather hollow cause i don't really have anything to gain for myself in the end.... and seeing my friends that i have adventured with for months now leave cause of nothing to do at 50 just makes it that much more dull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Deadjest]

<DIV>Yup I played since it came out,  did the 76 hr camps when befor Jboots were changed, the mass drive on the mask in guk befor that change, pretty much the whole 9 yards.   Had around 500 AA on my SK and about 250 or so on my Wizard, about 120 on my War and about 50 or so on my BL and noone on my Rog or Necro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I started off on Veeshan and my guild moved to Saryrn during the split, only guilds we saw at the time we started were Fire of Heavens and Sons of Steel, I have not forgotten the days of 120 people camping guk and around 100 camping CT and not to mention  Sol C till the first expansion came out.    I left EQL during OoW for EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I am waiting for the first expansion to come out for EQ2  and see what pattern they will start to set in motion.   From what I have read, they now understand people want more diversity and roles among the chars and I am curious as to how they intend to implement it here. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Drumly]

<DIV><EM><FONT color=#ffcc00>Cecil_Strife wrote:<BR></FONT></EM> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT></EM></DIV> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffcc00>Wow your a real card...  you read half of what i say and then put conclusions on it.  twice now you have twisted what i said to a lie</FONT></EM></P> <P>My appologies . . I have been reading all that you have written and have read the whole thread.  I have been using the relevent sections of your post to discuss what you are saying and trying to state my opinion on the issue.  I am not trying to twist your words . . . <U>I am explaining my own</U>.  If that isn't clear I am sorry. :smileysad:  The fact that we disagree is obvious, but I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am certainly not purposefully "twisting" your words.  </P> <P>My only point since I entered this discussion is that whatever system is used for AA, the one for EQL, IMHO, tilts the balance of the game away from the casual player and on to the people that have tons of time to play.  If the EQL type AA is what we are talking about I am very leery about it and would rather see something else tried. Different </P> <P>You suggest that AA's were so easy to get that they were not a major impediment to play.  My personal experience shows this to be wrong.  You suggest that because there were other problems in the game that do not exist here that AA's are not dangerous.  I disagree.  </P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffcc33>You are twisting what i said and acting like i am saying do the same for eq2</FONT></EM></P> <P>No, I am saying that the AA system in EQL was detrimental to the system and that I do not wish to see one like that.  I am assuming that your opinion is different and that you would like that type of advancement.  You are saying that the AA systems was not one of the problems in the game, rather that the game had many flaws that EQ2 seems to be trying to look after.  I am saying that AA was one of the flaws.  Disagreement is not twisting.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>Yes a level 60 druid would be more wanted then a level 60 druid with 100aa</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Which is what I said. And in my opinion is a problem.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc66>But a level 60 druid would be more wanted then a level 55 as well...</FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>As it should be . . . which is what I said.  Level should be the measure of usefulness.  Not the aa that someone brings to the table. Whatever the system . . . my opinion and not Cecil's . . . level should be more important than any aa.  Level 59 with 10 AA's should not be as useful as Level 60 with none.</FONT></P> <P>Respectfully,</P> <P>The Tang</P></DIV>

[Golelo]

<DIV>The addition of AA is what killed EQ-L for the newbie, or the person who enjoyed leveling toons. After SoL you started to see a large decline of people in the newbie areas. With POP and beyond leveling to 50-60 via groups was out of the question. Why? Because everyone was grinding out AAs to be competitive. Adding AAs will kill the low lvl game which a lot of people enjoy. Sure adding AA will keep people, but it will also prevent people from creating alts and newbies lvling in groups. Without AA EQ-L was the number 1 MMO out there. </DIV>

[Cecil_Stri]

<P>Actually wan't talking about you drumly <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Sorry for the misunderstanding</P> <DIV>This game is heavily tiered.. they could easily come up with a system that makes it so each expansion doesn't stack on to your current AA. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:10 AM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>It was talking about me Drumly, which is neither here nor there.</P> <P>Bottome line is EQL had a Flawed system compounded by a Flawed AA System.   I was there when it started till the time I left in OoW and saw at what point you hit Brick Walls with and without AA.    It was a Alternitive systme that was actualy a Mandatory System content wise and Guild Wise if you wanted to be a Raider and join the big Guilds.</P> <P>This part here is no longer a arguable point as far as I am concerned,  that is what I and many others experienced and why we came here.</P> <P>My point now is and has been for a bit.</P> <P>A,  If people want the EQL version of a AA systme then I am whole heartedly against it, period.</P> <P>B,  If people want Some type of AA system that does not embody the worst of EQL, which was the grinding, the content locking, and Expansion Stacking Issues, but basicly upgrading your char to a limited degree  and even more so, giving each char even more paths to follow to make it more indvidual to each person, then count me in.</P> <P>And thats about it.</P>

[Khims]

<P>What system in any game isn't flawed? heh</P> <P>You will never find a perfect system in a game.  Seems like you are just stating your opinions as facts and don't really have any hard core proof that it was horrible system.  I mean class balance is flawed... should we remove all classes?  </P>

[Drumly]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khimson wrote:<BR> <P>What system in any game isn't flawed? heh</P> <P>You will never find a perfect system in a game.  Seems like you are just stating your opinions as facts and don't really have any hard core proof that it was horrible system.  I mean class balance is flawed... should we remove all classes?  </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I thought people were really good at pointing out their experiences with the previous system during this post. Experiences do constitute backup for an opinion.  Tweaking classes and developing content for everybody is one thing.  Unbalancing classes with a manditory alternative advancement as was done in EQL is another.  Nobody has really stated any facts proving that it was a good system either.  It comes down to your exeperiences and whether you liked it or not.  Myself and some of the others in this discussion didn't like it because it didn't provide casual and new players a chance to join in and play the content that we were paying for.  </P> <P>Honestly, as a casual player with a small number of AA's in the previous game, I think I can solidly say that my EQL experience was poorer for the AA system making that development necessary to progress and see and play the content.  So much so that I voted with my wallet and stopped playing the game. I was unable to play with the majority of players who were at the same level.  They were playing content which was tweaked for people with the AA's  and not tweaked for people by level.  Since I was behind everyone there was nobody else playing in those areas . . . some of the zones were flat out empty . . . and that is not a good thing for a social game.</P> <DIV>Could I have played differently and changed that? . . . no.  As a player there was nothing I could do.  Unlocking flags at certain levels didn't make me able to play in the unlocked zones.  The content was content that I could not play.  All I think the majority of the people who shared those types of experiences with me are saying is . . . please don't repeat that mistake exactly again. When AA's make a player more capable then a player without the content has to be targeted to the most powerful.  Otherwise it is not challenging.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So many things about EQ2 are better and I believe that the Dev's could implement an system that wouldn't break what we do.  Lots of the mistakes of the high end EQL game are addressed and constantly being tweaked and fixed.  My only interest in entering this discussion was to make sure that the voice of the casual player wasn't lost . . . from my perspective there were problems with AA's,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Respectfully,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Tang</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Salastine]

<P>A lot of talk in this thread is related to: once you spend the time to achieve AA's, you will forever have an inherent advantage over those who have to folow in your footsteps and achieve the same AA's, until the end of time.</P> <P>Much of this game is based around teirs, i.e. spells/gear/mobs greying out as you advance to the next level.  Has anyone considered this idea?:</P> <P>Teired AA's.  In other words, AA's that you can expect to "grey out" in the next teir of gameplay.  Example:  Right now, the max lvel is 50... let those people who rush to 50, grind AA's to their heart's content, further advancing their character.  Then, once the expansion comes out, and the level cap is raised to 60, a new set of Teir6 AA's become available, and are similar-but-better versions of the now-grey'd-out teir 5 AA's.  This means that those who choose to grind AA's, DO gain a character advantage, but not forever like it was in EQ1... the advantage will "grey-out" with each raise of the level cap...... meaning a newly created character could go from lvel 1-60 w/out bothering with the level 50 AA's, making it easier to "catch-up."</P> <P> </P> <P>Such a system would give those who level quickly something to do until the next expansion, while at the same time not leaping lightyears ahead of everyone who plays at a slower pace and/or starts playing the game late.  This is already the way gear will work... i.e. all the current top raidin guilds with oodles of awesome fabled gear are going to see it all grey out around level 55, putting everyone back on a level playing field come level 60.</P><p>Message Edited by Salastine on <span class=date_text>07-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:35 PM</span>

[Drumly]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Salastine wrote:<BR> <P>A lot of talk in this thread is related to: once you spend the time to achieve AA's, you will forever have an inherent advantage over those who have to folow in your footsteps and achieve the same AA's, until the end of time.</P> <P>Teired AA's.  In other words, AA's that you can expect to "grey out" in the next teir of gameplay.  Example:  Right now, the max lvel is 50... let those people who rush to 50, grind AA's to their heart's content, further advancing their character.  Then, once the expansion comes out, and the level cap is raised to 60, a new set of Teir6 AA's become available, and are similar-but-better versions of the now-grey'd-out teir 5 AA's.  This means that those who choose to grind AA's, DO gain a character advantage, but not forever like it was in EQ1... the advantage will "grey-out" with each raise of the level cap...... meaning a newly created character could go from lvel 1-60 w/out bothering with the level 50 AA's, making it easier to "catch-up."</P> <P>____</P> <P>I think this is a solution that really has some merit.  It certainly meets all of my concerns as a casual player, Gives something for those players to do and develop for characters and allows catching up  . . . . what about it those 200 AA people.  Would you be willing to work on advancing your character through AA's that were going to be "greyed out" when the next expansion came out? </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The Tang</DIV>

[Salastine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drumly wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think this is a solution that really has some merit.  It certainly meets all of my concerns as a casual player, Gives something for those players to do and develop for characters and allows catching up  . . . . what about it those 200 AA people.  Would you be willing to work on advancing your character through AA's that were going to be "greyed out" when the next expansion came out? </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The Tang</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well, considering pretty much everyone who raids or groups in the endgame is aquiring items that will be grey by october at their rate of play (i.e. lvl 60 and all T5 items grey by october, most likely), i'd think they/we can handle such a system for AA's as well.  At least it would be SOMETHING to keep you interested.... i love raiding, but i love grouping too... at level 50, presently the only common reason to do either (other than the enjoyment of gameplay that we all share) is a) quests, or b) loot.  It's hard for me to imagine why adding c) AA's would be a bad thing, even if they did grey out just as quickly as the loot that is dropping come next expansion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>If it was done in the same manner that your spells are done, this would be a great system.</P> <P>If you started the game late and lvled very fast you could by pass the old gray AA and work on the AA that is now viable so that you are not constantly playing catch up.</P> <P>I am impressed by this idea and its withing the focus of EQ2.</P> <P>Well done.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>It would be something to do....</DIV>

[Nature]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyfairer wrote:<BR> <DIV>I played EQ Live from beta.  I saw a well developed and expansive game world that had a rather rounded backstory slowly fall apart over time as each new expansion was released with less and less tie in to the original world and more "candy" to satisfy certain groups.  The death knell was probably PoP and its teleporters.  Given that new way to travel huge areas of the game world were merely skipped over by most and the thrill of exploration and risk of overland travel was lost.  Most peeps merely followed the tried and true grinding grounds route to max their character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "end game" became the only goal and not merely a destination.  The most quick and efficient methods to get to max level were pursued by the masses sacraficing huge amounts of "on the way to the top" content.   AA points were one such gimmick and resulted in large numbers of peeps merely grinding mindlessly until they reached some AA threshold that would allow them to compete for raid slots.  It became work and a race to get to the best grind places first. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sadly I have read mention of the addition of AA points.  Not only did the original system not fit into the game ethos it turned EQ Live into work.  There are many things about EQ2 that promote gameplay.  The lack of coin drops prevents plat farming for the most part (another thing to go away soon) and the relative ability for each class to perform its base job -heal, dmg, etc- prevents the required trinity for raids that EQ Live has.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can only hope that EQ2 stays true to its original intent and does not morph (as it seems to be now) into EQ Live with better graphics.  If most of us from EQ Live wanted EQ Live game options we would have stayed there and not come over to EQ2 and the promise it held.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MSD </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree. Only thing i saw that came from AA's where harder and harder and HARDER hitting mobs. Tougher content that normally could not be done unless you had AA's in specific areas. I see the same thing happening here with end game content and raid mobs if an AA system is implemented.</DIV>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nature wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyfairer wrote:<BR> <DIV>I played EQ Live from beta.  I saw a well developed and expansive game world that had a rather rounded backstory slowly fall apart over time as each new expansion was released with less and less tie in to the original world and more "candy" to satisfy certain groups.  The death knell was probably PoP and its teleporters.  Given that new way to travel huge areas of the game world were merely skipped over by most and the thrill of exploration and risk of overland travel was lost.  Most peeps merely followed the tried and true grinding grounds route to max their character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "end game" became the only goal and not merely a destination.  The most quick and efficient methods to get to max level were pursued by the masses sacraficing huge amounts of "on the way to the top" content.   AA points were one such gimmick and resulted in large numbers of peeps merely grinding mindlessly until they reached some AA threshold that would allow them to compete for raid slots.  It became work and a race to get to the best grind places first. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sadly I have read mention of the addition of AA points.  Not only did the original system not fit into the game ethos it turned EQ Live into work.  There are many things about EQ2 that promote gameplay.  The lack of coin drops prevents plat farming for the most part (another thing to go away soon) and the relative ability for each class to perform its base job -heal, dmg, etc- prevents the required trinity for raids that EQ Live has.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can only hope that EQ2 stays true to its original intent and does not morph (as it seems to be now) into EQ Live with better graphics.  If most of us from EQ Live wanted EQ Live game options we would have stayed there and not come over to EQ2 and the promise it held.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MSD </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree. Only thing i saw that came from AA's where harder and harder and HARDER hitting mobs. Tougher content that normally could not be done unless you had AA's in specific areas. I see the same thing happening here with end game content and raid mobs if an AA system is implemented.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So your saying Yelinek wasnt tougher then trakanon?

[Nature]

<P>What im saying is this, example: a solo mob like "a northern stag" in everfrost ,or whatever the name, is soloable by everyone with average gear. After AA concept comes out(if it is introduced in desert of flames) the expansion after that(desert of flames 2 as an example) a solo mob "a northern stag" in that expansion will probably require some level of AA or uber gear to be able to solo a soloable mob. It happened with PoP and to say it didnt you obviously never solo'd much. Thats what i was trying to relay in my previous post without having to give examples and such and be winded about it. End game content doesnt mean raid mobs only</P><p>Message Edited by Nature on <span class=date_text>07-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:15 PM</span>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>With or without AA the game is gonna get tougher and tougher... Every MMO in exsistance does and for good reason.  People gain the mastery to play a toon right... People gain loot.. and people learn to work as a group.  The perfect example of this is Ruins of kunark to velious.  Velious was ALOT tougher yet no advacement at all was added.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So saying that AA caused the game to get harder and harder isn't the exact truth.  The game was getting harder and harder anyway. To say that a solo mob is gonna be hard to beat without AA is making a large assumptions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Games mature and get harder.. that is just natural progression of things</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 PM</span>

[Nature]

Your missing my point again i guess. Im not saying that the mobs should not get tougher at all. What im saying is this, goto any zone in kunark or velious and fight a level 50 mob, then take your self to PoP and fight a level 50 mob. Why is their a HUGE difference. Dont tell me that it just get harder for the new zones. The difference between mobs at the same level pre-luclin was minimal. Was this maybe do to twinking? Maybe, but you have less of a chance to do that with gear in this game. Spells on the other hand you do. AA's are just another time sink to be able to advance for newer people joining the game IMO. If people max there AA's in this game they will be calling the content to easy as what is hapening now without AA's (raid mobs only at the present time). If there were AA's in game now and everyone was maxed you dont think that deserts of flame Devs would not have that in mind. Im sorry but i dont want to sink the time into AA's like eq(live).<p>Message Edited by Nature on <span class=date_text>07-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:01 PM</span>

[Drumly]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote:<BR> <DIV>With or without AA the game is gonna get tougher and tougher... Every MMO in exsistance does and for good reason.  People gain the mastery to play a toon right... People gain loot.. and people learn to work as a group.  The perfect example of this is Ruins of kunark to velious.  Velious was ALOT tougher yet no advacement at all was added.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So saying that AA caused the game to get harder and harder isn't the exact truth.  The game was getting harder and harder anyway. To say that a solo mob is gonna be hard to beat without AA is making a large assumptions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Games mature and get harder.. that is just natural progression of things</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <SPAN class=date_text>07-16-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:54 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The game should get harder . . . but we are back to the same point we were in the discussion before the suggestion of grey outs.  If the content is getting harder to challenge players with AA's it is impossible without them.  That was the gap. Fighting something was trivial when you had AA's but were still challenging without is the opposite problem.  It is about balance and the balance for content between AA's and No AA's is the hardest one . . . because the players have access to the same zones.</P> <P>The Tang</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>No i understand what you are saying 100%... but in all due respect you aren't looking at the big picture.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A level 60 frog from sebilis was no where near as powerful as a level 60 mob from Drakkel Kael.. a rhine in the overthere was much tougher then same level mob in say south karana...Each expansion made the game harder with or without AA... but... The experiance and loot got better as well</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:16 PM</span>

[Margen]

<P>Problem is you have to maintain some sort of balance.  An example I see where the balance was lost was in GoD.  </P> <P>In EQlive I was a well equiped bazar type paladin with some high end LDON armor and a few quest items with around 140ish AA's.  But in GoD, after the first two zones (which where grey/green/maybe light blue mobs), to be honest I got my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kicked in GROUP content, I couldn't do my job as a tank.  So the most high end players kept advancing and the casuals/non-hardcore raiding players basicly got very little out of an expansion they paid for.  There was a lot of anger in the non-hardcore community and a lot of people left.  </P> <DIV>So you have to maintain some form of balance between the different communites or you start ticking people off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blackoath</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>Actualy this is a point to the anti AA idea even though I agree with the AA graying out idea.   The Content around PoP is where AA starting failing the game system.   You were put in a spostion where AA became Manditory instead of Alternitive Advancment.</P> <P>The idea of a non stacking AA System greying out is a sound idea.   The issue would end up all on Content then.   Basicly you would have to internaly Tier the zones to a degree.</P> <P>Basicly each zones gets harder as you progress to the point where you need AA to do the end zone for that expansion.   Mean while when the next expansion comes and the next set of high lvls is reached, they can now do the end zones from the last expansion without needing AA.   But the now present expansion might need AA for the End Zone, and on it would go from expansion to expansion.</P> <P>So basicly you LEVEL'S ALONE ALWAYS keeps up with content to a degree and AA would mainly be for pushing the latest end content.</P> <P>There can also be <STRONG>ANOTHER SCHOOL OF THOUGHT</STRONG> here when it comes to AA.</P> <P>AA only partly upgrades your char but does not really effect content.</P> <P>AA could be used like a Branching Tree.   Its used to help seperate each one of the 24 class within our present system but give them a choice to go this route or that route but once they pick a route, they can't go back.</P> <P>Example.  Priests can cure all sorts of effects, but Priest ( A ) now has special cure line for Disease and Priest ( B ) has special cure line for Poisons.   Also maybe Priests may seperate their attack abilities, such as some Priests may now have a better physical or magical combat ability vs different types of Undead, Elementals, etc, etc.</P> <P>So now AA is not so much working on content as a whole but working on whats in the content, and once they pick a branch, it will gray out and have to be upgraded next Expansion or they just pick a different branch.   When next Expanson comes out, they now have the choice of picking the branch they didnt pick befor from the last expansion but unless they pick the same branch their old AA will be greyed out but still present but now they will excell at their new branch.</P> <P>So AA just doesnt have to be overall content effecting.</P> <P>I think branching AA is more in line with this type of game then AA that effects content over all.   Both can work if really thought out but the later stylizes chars to a much more personal degree, each expansion which is more important over all I think.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<P>Point is... the game (and even the stuff you would solo or group for exp for) got harder every single expansion.  Way before AA... even expansions that didn't increase level cap would be harder then the last.  A bulthar would be much tougher then anything you would fight in kunark.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yeah pop was harder then SoL... and GoD harder then PoP. so on and so forth..  The point being everquest had problems at the base of the system.  It wasn't all on AAs door step.  AA didn't exactly help the already present problem tho.  It proly actually made it worse but even if AA was never added... eq still would have went down the exact same path which was started heavily with Scars of velious.</P> <P>Also you gotta think what kinda problem would have occured if they didn't add AA and just added levels every expansion (eq2 is coded to go to level 100+)  Then you have a whole world where everything is spread thin.  Since its so broad and levels make such a huge differance when it comes to hitting and being hit so much content will go un used... you would pass by something and then that zone would be a ghost zone from then on.  Much like the newbie zones outside the cities.. which are harderly ever used now.</P> <P> </P>

[Deadjest]

<P>You have to understand the content responded to the AA, not the other way around.   AA wasnt just sprung on the content like a sudden attack, the content was made harder because of the AA they were going to introduce.</P> <P>Without the AA the content would be extreamly hard for players to do it so they had to go after the AA.   AA provided another time sink for the playing base, which set you on a path of going after AA if you wanted to see more of the content which in turn casued the game to stretch out longer and provided a paying customer base till the next expansion came out.   They avoided the Crying of what do we do now that we are at the end of the game and the Expansion is months away.   But the old system had a detramental effect on incoming players who would then get discouraged which is a bad thing money wise.</P> <P>Velous was a very poor expansion and was very bad for a few class's.</P> <P>So the idea of AA is not bad, its only bad in relation on how it effected things in the old game.   If you can get around that here, its all a plus.</P> <P>And alot of the ability is already there without them having to do a ton of work.   We already have Masters Rage of this and that mob, it would not be hard for them to put that into effect on a differently lvl and in different ways and the same goes for Traits to.</P> <P>The technology is already in the game, they just have to redirect / add to it, instead of building a whole new system which might effect how Content works in the Big Picture.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>You have to understand the content responded to the AA, not the other way around.   AA wasnt just sprung on the content like a sudden attack, the content was made harder because of the AA they were going to introduce.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>Content was getting harder with or without AA.  That is my whole point.. you are making an unfair assumption with no facts to back it up... just cause pop was harder then Sol..doesn't mean anything.  Everquest 1 was easier then kunark which was easier then velious.. who is to say that trend would have ended?  Yeah maybe AA increased it alittle bit more but they would have just made the game harder (because gear was getting much better every expansion).  You CAN NOT say that AA caused this problem without the disclaimer of saying I THINK AA CAUSED THIS PROBLEM.. cause you do not know that for sure. period.  History showed they were getting harder even without AA</FONT></P> <P>Without the AA the content would be extreamly hard for players to do it so they had to go after the AA.   AA provided another time sink for the playing base, which set you on a path of going after AA if you wanted to see more of the content which in turn casued the game to stretch out longer and provided a paying customer base till the next expansion came out.   They avoided the Crying of what do we do now that we are at the end of the game and the Expansion is months away.   But the old system had a detramental effect on incoming players who would then get discouraged which is a bad thing money wise.</P> <P>Velous was a very poor expansion and was very bad for a few class's.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>And some people consider it the best expansion in the game... its still all opinion</FONT></P> <P>So the idea of AA is not bad, its only bad in relation on how it effected things in the old game.   If you can get around that here, its all a plus.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Agree exactly.  I doubt very seriously they would ever consider just copy and pasting the same AA system over.  They have taken so many more steps to insure this games quality.  I doubt they would slack off for this</FONT></P> <P>And alot of the ability is already there without them having to do a ton of work.   We already have Masters Rage of this and that mob, it would not be hard for them to put that into effect on a differently lvl and in different ways and the same goes for Traits to.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>This was my very first idea when i was talking about AA before in another thread.  Adding it so you could buy traits would be a great quick way to allow 50s something to do.  (and fix the whole i didn't get group elemental cure now i am screwed problem)</FONT></P> <P>The technology is already in the game, they just have to redirect / add to it, instead of building a whole new system which might effect how Content works in the Big Picture.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Also adding increased buff duration (permantly not letting it grey out) decreased buff cool down..  decrease buff cast time... would all be great AAs without hurting the power differance.... Although kinda lame that you need AA to make things less tedious but i would be happy with it<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 PM</span>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Margen wrote:<BR> <P>Problem is you have to maintain some sort of balance.  An example I see where the balance was lost was in GoD. </P> <P>In EQlive I was a well equiped bazar type paladin with some high end LDON armor and a few quest items with around 140ish AA's.  But in GoD, after the first two zones (which where grey/green/maybe light blue mobs), to be honest I got my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kicked in GROUP content, I couldn't do my job as a tank.  So the most high end players kept advancing and the casuals/non-hardcore raiding players basicly got very little out of an expansion they paid for.  There was a lot of anger in the non-hardcore community and a lot of people left. </P> <DIV>So you have to maintain some form of balance between the different communites or you start ticking people off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blackoath</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Saying people aren't ticked off now?  THE GAME IS BORING at high levels.  That ticks so many people off that are level 50 to no end.</DIV>

[Kutark]

<DIV>I haven't read all 8 pages, but there seems to be something that everyone is missing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They had to introduce something like AA to make the game able to continue to be played.  The game was ~4 years old when they introduced AA.  What did you expect?  Another level cap increase?  Whats the difference, its the same thing, another way to advance your char.  Personally i thought AA were great, they gave a way to give your character something unique.  They also gave the high end guilds a way to see if a person was determined enough to be in their guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets be realistic.  At the time we are discussing, 80-90% of the players were in their 50-60's.  There is no point in introducing low end content into a game at that stage in its life.  It would be a waste of money.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with a lot of the points the original poster had, but he was looking at it from a perspective of a new game.  Yes, AA in the game right now would be a horrible, atrocious idea.  It would just be like in FFXI.  You get your char to level X and then oh no, you have to get another char to level Y because its going to be your "secondary" class.  Thats called a treadmill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The idea is to create a game where it means something to get to the top of the game, and have it be fun on the way there.  Unfortunately when a game is nearing the end of its life you can't very well expect some expansion to totally remake the game, you should only expect an improvement, or at the very least some continued excitement or content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I definitely agree that the nicest thing about the class system is you dont have that trinity as he stated neccesary for a group or raid (tank/enchanter/cleric).  Although i also believe it kind of takes away some of the personality of the game.  The nice thing about EQ is if you were lucky enough to find the right classes you could set up a really kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] group.  I used to get a group with me, my chanter friend, my cleric friend, and we would find a magician, a necro, and a wizard, it worked really well because the mixture of classes and skills.  It hasn't really changed in EQ2, just a little bit more versatility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem with EQ1 is that clerics were a pain in the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to find.  That is still a problem and it has nothing to do with the game, Its with the people.  Nobody really wants to play that class.  I am glad EQ2 made it a lot more exciting and fun to play a healer class then it was in EQ1.  It certainly isnt anywhere close to as bad as EQ1, but finding a healer still isnt easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless. I still think AA were a good idea given where the game was at that time in its life.</DIV>

[Khims]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kutark wrote:<BR> <DIV>I haven't read all 8 pages, but there seems to be something that everyone is missing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They had to introduce something like AA to make the game able to continue to be played.  The game was ~4 years old when they introduced AA.  What did you expect?  Another level cap increase?  Whats the difference, its the same thing, another way to advance your char.  Personally i thought AA were great, they gave a way to give your character something unique.  They also gave the high end guilds a way to see if a person was determined enough to be in their guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets be realistic.  At the time we are discussing, 80-90% of the players were in their 50-60's.  There is no point in introducing low end content into a game at that stage in its life.  It would be a waste of money.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with a lot of the points the original poster had, but he was looking at it from a perspective of a new game.  Yes, AA in the game right now would be a horrible, atrocious idea.  It would just be like in FFXI.  You get your char to level X and then oh no, you have to get another char to level Y because its going to be your "secondary" class.  Thats called a treadmill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The idea is to create a game where it means something to get to the top of the game, and have it be fun on the way there.  Unfortunately when a game is nearing the end of its life you can't very well expect some expansion to totally remake the game, you should only expect an improvement, or at the very least some continued excitement or content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I definitely agree that the nicest thing about the class system is you dont have that trinity as he stated neccesary for a group or raid (tank/enchanter/cleric).  Although i also believe it kind of takes away some of the personality of the game.  The nice thing about EQ is if you were lucky enough to find the right classes you could set up a really kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] group.  I used to get a group with me, my chanter friend, my cleric friend, and we would find a magician, a necro, and a wizard, it worked really well because the mixture of classes and skills.  It hasn't really changed in EQ2, just a little bit more versatility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem with EQ1 is that clerics were a pain in the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to find.  That is still a problem and it has nothing to do with the game, Its with the people.  Nobody really wants to play that class.  I am glad EQ2 made it a lot more exciting and fun to play a healer class then it was in EQ1.  It certainly isnt anywhere close to as bad as EQ1, but finding a healer still isnt easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless. I still think AA were a good idea given where the game was at that time in its life.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The "trinitiy" in this game is way worse then everquest 1. 

[Deadjest]

<P>I think a point was missed.</P> <P>When a game does a steady climb up the ladder, so do the players, for the equipment matches thte climb.   It worked like that for EQL when it first came out.<BR>As you climbed up the ladder of zones at a steady pace, the equipment </P>

[Deadjest]

<P>I think a point was missed.</P> <P>When a game does a steady climb up the ladder, so do the players, for the equipment matches thte climb.   It worked like that for EQL when it first came out.<BR>As you climbed up the ladder of zones at a steady pace, the equipment along </P>

[Deadjest]

<P>I think a point was missed.</P> <P>When a game does a steady climb up the ladder, so do the players, for the equipment matches thte climb.   It worked like that for EQL when it first came out.<BR>As you climbed up the ladder of zones at a steady pace, the equipment along the way kept up with the content.</P> <P>But later on in certain expansions that was not so.   You would hit many a brick walls without the AA to take you where lvl and equipment alone could not.   Ok that was start of the break down for your mid ranger char.   Next came the part where AAs started stacking, now you have 3 seperate paths starting to form.   Equipment, Leveling and now AA.   </P> <P>Befor Equipment and Leveling would work side by side with each other, but with the introduction of AA, Content could now be made with major steps built into it where all 3 had to go hand in hand.   So now went from Alternitive Advancment to Mandatroy Advancment.</P> <P>With the issue of AA stacking, now you start compounding the issue for the mid grade players which are the ones carrying the game.   I can't really say anything for truely casualy players, they each have their own seperate patterns so realisticly they just have to take it as it comes, where as the mid level players were taking the smack down cause the AA was too much of a time sink for the majority so they could actualy move FOWARD and enjoy the game instead of grinding constantly in hopes of one day in the far future they might reach the higher content only to have another expansion come befor they finished that last two they were still working on.</P> <P>Someone brought up to much low lvl content, that is true.   After a certain point, there is no reason to keep adding low lvl content to a game and is a waste of resources which could be better spent providing larger range to the mid and higher lvl zones and as a game gets older and older even the mid range of add on content should shrink to the point you are only working on high end content and raiding.</P> <P>You have to understand at that point High End Content and Raiding are two seperate issues and keep it seperated.</P> <P>Oh and btw, even EQ admitted Velious was not as good as it could have been and by the boards it caused alot of issues for alot of class that suddenly hit brick walls.  The land scape was great and it provided much needed room for the players but the game machinics of it was poor.  A massive imbalance was created between meele and casters.</P> <P>If EQ2 sticks to the system they now have and expand upon it, things could work nicely.   If it generates specialized Traits and MAYBE graying out AA, it might work.</P> <P>And it allows the player that joins late to only be concerned with leveling and equipment and if he works steady with his friends, work on the abilities at the top of the latest expansion.   Cause stacking AAs wont be there to keep causing major issues.</P> <P>AND what is really important, if they concentrait AAs or Traits on certain parts of the content instead of content as a whole, you will compleatly avoid lots of bogging down for the gamers and lots of stylized chars being developed.</P> <P>Which should work for high end and mid grade players alike.</P>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Khimson wrote:The "trinitiy" in this game is way worse then everquest 1.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>That is so not true, there is no single subclass that is mandatory in a group, any of the 6 fighter subclasses can be a groups tank, any of the 6 priest subclasses can be the groups healer, the other spaces in a group can be filled by any subclass without losing the ability to be successful. Also it is quite possible to have a fighter free group, with a priest, scout or summoners pet tanking. It is possible to have a priest free group, if you have a couple of non-priests with minor healing. There is far more versitility, and no need for any 'trinity'</span><div></div>

[Crotal]

<P>Agreed, I was in a kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] group this week end that consisted of a Fury, Assassin, Swashbuckler, Ranger, Dirge and Necromancer.  We were like a cuisinart, taking up to heroic orange con mobs with speed unlike any tank based group I have been in.</P> <P>The issue that people seem to complain about relating to AAs is that the content gets harder.  Whats not to like about that?  Are you also against the expansions increasing the quality of equiment as well?  Expansions are supposed to be about new and harder challenges.  Yes this will make some older content obsolete.  A yellow con DOF mob will likely be harder than a yellow con pre-expansion mob, and so on.  The gear gets better, we get more spells, and the ability to handle tougher content relative to our levels.</P> <P>A common complaint is that certain AAs became mandatory to do certain content.  In my mind thats the same as levels, it is essentailly "mandatory" to be of a certain level to enjoy content in high end zones.  We usually dont see much complaining about it, as people work to get to a point where they can handle the new content.  Why are AAs any different?</P>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Crotalus wrote:<p>A yellow con DOF mob will likely be harder than a yellow con pre-expansion mob, and so on.  The gear gets better, we get more spells, and the ability to handle tougher content relative to our levels. </p></blockquote><font color="#6699ff">That the whole flaw though, a level 50 mob should be the same challenge whichever zone it is in, and a white con should always be a white con. Equipment shouldn't improve beyond the natural improvement we already see from tier to tier. </font><font color="#6699ff"> </font><font color="#6699ff"> </font><font color="#6699ff">The new spells are replacing old spells that become obselete and so while they will improve our characters they will only do so as we level.</font><font color="#6699ff"> </font><font color="#6699ff"> </font><font color="#6699ff">Sure much of DoF will be tougher than existing stuff, that is because it is going to be aimed at characters level 50-60, and those characters will be improving as they level.</font> <blockquote> <p>A common complaint is that certain AAs became mandatory to do certain content.  In my mind thats the same as levels, it is essentailly "mandatory" to be of a certain level to enjoy content in high end zones.  We usually dont see much complaining about it, as people work to get to a point where they can handle the new content.  Why are AAs any different?</p> </blockquote> <font color="#6699ff">Because they are supposed to be an alternate advancement, we already have levels as the compulsory advancement, if you want to go fight the level 45 content you need to level to 45, to fight the level 5 content you should only need to reach level 55. Making AAs that mean you will need to reach 55 + 25 AAs in order to be able to do 55 content, stops them from being an alternative and makes them obligatory.</font> <blockquote><hr></blockquote> </span><div></div>

[Cecil_Stri]

<P>Yes it is true.. not in groups but in raids.</P> <P> </P> <P>In raids gotta have certain classes... its a MUST.  what makes it worse then in eq1 is that since they have so many differant classes it really dilutes your pool to choose from.  </P> <DIV>In all due respect.. assuming Tyron is your main.. at level 30 its not as apparant as it is at level 50.  Raiding right now is so far from casual.  Since its so hard to get the needed classes together in a guild setting... and then if one of em is gone for the day.. scrap your whole raiding plans for the rest of the guild.  This makes it much worse then everquest.  Since everyone knew clerics were the best so alot of people went clerc.. shamans were needed so 2/3 healers were needed.  Eq2.. 2 outta 6 healers are a must.  Kinda dilutes your pickings</DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:06 PM</span>

[Drumly]

<div></div><i><span>Crotalus wrote:</span></i><span><i>A common complaint is that certain AAs became mandatory to do certain content.  In my mind thats the same as levels, it is essentailly "mandatory" to be of a certain level to enjoy content in high end zones.  We usually dont see much complaining about it, as people work to get to a point where they can handle the new content.  Why are AAs any different?</i>Because as you describe them . . . aa's should be levels.  So why not make them such? As </span><a target="top" href="../view_profile?user.id=116393"><span>l<font color="#ffffff">isasdarren</font></span></a> so nicely just put it . . . the system exists.<span>The problem is AA's should be (IMHO) the stop gap that allows more players an opportunity to catch up and play the content that they are paying for.  Originally, it was a way to provide your characters "tweaks".  When the tweaks became manditory for playing content . . . they also became manditory for getting groups.  Once behind there was no reasonable way to catch up.  This game is more casual gamer friendly then EQL . . . which is why I have abandoned my character in EQL.  However, I need the chance to catch up.  The more players that are are level 50 - - the more opportunities for playing that there will be in the content for everyone.If an AA makes the content easier for you then it is for me playing without them . . . the content has to be harder for you.  That means the player without AA has to get AA to play the new content. That spreads the gaps between players . . . making finding groups harder not easier for those who don't have the AA's.  Which means the content starts to be developed for smaller and smaller groups of the community.  The casual player is left behind. The explorers are left behind.  The people who want to do a million quests are left behind. EQL already meets the needs of players who have a ton of hours to play.  I want to pay my nickel for a game that caters to my needs too.So the question is . . . is there an implementation of AA's, such as the excellent suggestion of tiered AA's, that will meet the needs of those who play lots and will allow average and casual players the same opportunity to experience expanded content.  I don't need every zone . . . but I think more then half is reasonable <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Respectfully,The Tang</span><div></div>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>I don't really like the idea of them adding a tier every expansion,  but if they don't then what else are we gonna do? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some type of AA is gonna need to be added... or the high end game is gonna die and that isn't gonna be good for anyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adding a tier every expansion is gonna spread everything so thin (which it kinda already is.... most of the overland zones are ghost lands now).  Best part of eq was i could play around in the planes and i could play around in the last two expansions 2 years later.  What are the odds of that happening in eq2 if the zone greys out 6 months later?</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<DIV>The problem here is things grey out a tad to fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The idea behind grey out is a good idea in the fact it cuts down on farmers and lets people who are really at thoes lvl make the best use of it without a major fear that people beyond it will farm it to death and take away the play experience for the lvls its ment for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But again it greys out a tad to soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for AA, as long as they don't make it a stackable ability which will majorly effect content and make it more in line with Traits, I think it will be ok.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But to make it where AA becomes Manditory to be able to push foward in Content, is just absurd.    The idea that it will be Mandatory to split you into going to seperate XP routes is anti to the majority which carry the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But if left as a true OPTION and as a Trait enhancement, it will provide customizing of the chars to a degree and not push content to be harder then the lvl its for.</DIV>

[Crotal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT color=#0066cc>lisasdarren wrote:</FONT><BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crotalus wrote:<BR> <P>A yellow con DOF mob will likely be harder than a yellow con pre-expansion mob, and so on.  The gear gets better, we get more spells, and the ability to handle tougher content relative to our levels.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#6699ff>That the whole flaw though, a level 50 mob should be the same challenge whichever zone it is in, and a white con should always be a white con. Equipment shouldn't improve beyond the natural improvement we already see from tier to tier. </FONT><FONT color=#6699ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6699ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6699ff>The new spells are replacing old spells that become obselete and so while they will improve our characters they will only do so as we level.</FONT><FONT color=#6699ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6699ff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#6699ff>Sure much of DoF will be tougher than existing stuff, that is because it is going to be aimed at characters level 50-60, and those characters will be improving as they level.</FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I think therein is the problem.  I don't agree that a level 50 mob nessacarily needs to be the same challenge regardless of zone.  Diversity and the unexpected make the game more enjoyable IMO.  Even now not all mobs are the same diffaculty at the same levels, some mobs feel overconned or underconned.  My usual two person small group could easily do yellow heroic Lamias, but had much more trouble with heroic Nightbloods of the same levels when we came up in Enchanted Lands.  The nightbloods consistantly hit harder, had higher defense, and had more HP.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>In other words level is not, even now, without AAs the only determining factor in diffaculty, Mob class, and even race appear to have significant impact already.</FONT><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>A common complaint is that certain AAs became mandatory to do certain content.  In my mind thats the same as levels, it is essentailly "mandatory" to be of a certain level to enjoy content in high end zones.  We usually dont see much complaining about it, as people work to get to a point where they can handle the new content.  Why are AAs any different?</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#6699ff>Because they are supposed to be an alternate advancement, we already have levels as the compulsory advancement, if you want to go fight the level 45 content you need to level to 45, to fight the level 5 content you should only need to reach level 55. Making AAs that mean you will need to reach 55 + 25 AAs in order to be able to do 55 content, stops them from being an alternative and makes them obligatory.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Another basic disagreement becomes apparant here.  You appear to consider the definition of what alternate 'should' be to accomidate your view of how we 'should' be obligated to build our characters.  Another way to look at alternate is alternate pathways, or decsions to make with points you 'should' be getting anyway.  In otherwords the gaining of AA points is not the alternative, but rather how you spend them is based on multiple alternatives.  It really all comes down to how you chose to parse it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Virtually everyone wound up getting AA points in EQ1.  It was never really intended to be an optional thing IMO, there were abilities that everyone wanted, even before they were considered 'mandatory' to do some encounters.  Perhaps they could have been called obligatory advancement.  Because eventually, everyone would at least dabble in them, as they maxxed out levels.</FONT><BR></P></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>Yeah dunno why everyone thinks Alternate means... they seem to think it means its not required.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look it up some time....  It was an ALTERNATE type of advacement.  but any advacement is required to do the harder stuff.. period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And that is how it should be (although i do agree GoD and such went abit overboard.. they did have expansions that were all lower level as well.</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>Heh try looking up Alternitive somtime, it might suprise ya.</P> <P>While people are looking up Alternitive, lets talk again about AA in EQL.</P> <P>It was a idea that was a Time Sink, and that is all it was.  Time Sinks don't work for the majority of players to the degree that EQL AA went to.   It was counter productive compared the time the majority of the players had to play and the content they payed to see.</P> <P>EQL AA just doesnt work in face of the fact that the majority of the players have work and family to tend to and other functions on top of that.  </P> <P>The problem is AA kept stacking with each expansion and so the content had to go above and beyond its standard smooth ride in its growing hardness with each lvl to where it was taking big steps.   Which ment you bogged down unless you spent your time spliting your XP in two different directions and if you did split your XP then you bogged down anyway do to the fact you were doing one or the other.</P> <P>There is a major issue when AA becomes More Important then the Level of the Character and the Equipment and the Spells he has earned.  And for the most part lets face it.   All the old AA system really did was solidify many a players hold on content a build a uber elite system.   Its one thing for a gaming system to seperate Hardcore Raiders  vs Casual Players, its another thing for the game to put a stangle hold on Hard Players vs Hardcore Raiders. </P> <P>I am not against AA as a idea, I am against EQL form of AA.</P> <P>If you put aside EQL AA and think about how AA could work within this system, you might end up with a really great system that works more towards promoting content and a uniqueness among  the Characters. </P> <P>Since we have a system based upon Greying out, stick to it.   When certain level based AA are surpassed, it greys out.   That way you don't have a constant stacking issue that goes way beyond Level and Equipment that is hard earned.</P> <P>What I am fond of from our talks now is AA that builds a Characters Traits.    That REALLY takes away from alot of content overpowering and starts making characters really different from each other and you shouldnt have to face major imbalance issues with different characters and content.  </P> <P>So when we talk AA, what are we really talking about, I keep asking this and not many reply.</P> <P>Do we want AA built upon the foundations of this system or upon the strangling form of EQL?</P>

[Crotal]

<DIV> <P><B>al·ter·nate</B><BR><I>v.</I> <B>al·ter·nat·ed,</B> <B>al·ter·nat·ing,</B> <B>al·ter·nates </B><BR></P><I></I> <P><I>adj.</I> (-n<IMG height=15 alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif" width=7>t)</P> <OL> <LI>Happening or following in turns; succeeding each other continuously: alternate seasons of the year. See Usage Note at <A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=alternative" target=_blank><FONT color=#0033ff>alternative</FONT></A>.</LI> <LI><STRONG>Designating or relating to every other one of a series: alternate lines. </STRONG></LI> <LI><STRONG>Serving or used in place of another; substitute: an alternate plan. </STRONG></LI></OL></DIV> <P>Sounds like parsing it as alternate paths, as opposed to 'optional' advancment, was pretty close to the mark.  You can look at the other uses of the word, as a verb or noun, but they dont really apply to any of the arguments here.</P> <P>At this point however, Id be willing to wager that we have put far more thought into what they wound up naming AA, and why than the developers and producers did when they first arrived at the name.</P> <P>There seem to be two basic schools of though there, those that disliked AA and did not want to feel obligated to another 'grind' and differentiator between players.  On the other side of the issue we have those who enjoyed the ability to earn distinguishing abilities for our characters when we had maxxed out levels.  I was never on the bleeding edge of levels, I never even hit 50 untill a few weeks after Kunark came out, I hit 60 in the luclin expansion.  Yet I was quite happy to be able to split xp between levels and some AA 'perks' on my way up the level ladder.  Alternating xp, between levels and AA is just one more way to parse it, now that I think of it.</P> <P>I'd be quite happy to see AA implimented in EQ2, I'd rather not see my abilities grey out, as I think that would create even more of a treadmill, and in the end cause even more complaints from the constituancy who are against AA points as they were in EQ1.</P> <P> </P>

[Cecil_Stri]

Alternate.  Serving or used in place of another; substitute <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wow looks like its did what it was supposed to</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jester... Now you say AA was more important then leveling?  jeez man maybe things were differant on my server then yours or something cause levels were always more important. If you give a level 1 every aa he wouldn't stand a chance against someone level 60 with none... even level 50... or 55....  </DIV> <P>Levels allowed you to hit .. land spells.. more hp.. more mana.. and gave you spells/abilities.. gave you more disciplines..Lowered refresh on disciplines...  allowed them to last longer.. should i go on.. think i will..  you recieved less damage from AoEs.... Your spells increased in effectiveness..  you got faster exp for AA..  </P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:48 PM</span>

[Drumly]

<span><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffff00">Cecil_Strife wrote:</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font> <font color="#ffff00">Alternate.  Serving or used in place of another; substitute </font><div><font color="#ffff00"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00">Wow looks like its did what it was supposed to</font></div> <div> </div>By the definition that we are playing with (and I aggree that the dictionary debate is silly)  <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> you would have used your AA <i>instead o</i>f going to the next level, not in addition to.  Alternate assumes two different and mutually exclusive choices. Alternating current for example. A substitute or alternate teacher does not teach with the person that they are replacing. No matter how you define it, AA wasn't a replacement or a substitute for levels. It was advancement in addition to levels.  The argument that a level 65 with no AA's was better then a level 64 with 200 AA's is kind of silly, at least in my personal experience. Two examples . . . In terms of just power . . . the AA's for mana were far more potent at increasing your mana pool then then you got by just leveling. Second,  it may have been different as a tank, but as a healer, crits were pretty powerful compared to anything else that you got for going up in levels.  The nail in the coffin of the argument is that a level 65 with 200 AA's was a much different playing experience in terms of interacting with the game environment then a level 65 with 9.  I can say this from personal experience . . . and thanks to my room mate who allowed me to play the uber guy he bought. Spells were good - - if you could get the drops or afford the spells . . . thankfully another bad part of EQL that is fixed in this game. I fall solidly on the camp of go ahead and use an alternative to advancing in levels as long as levels remain the important part.  I agree with your point entirely Cecil, I just disagree on your beliefs about that AA in EQL were unimportant in the game.  I don't want to see them be important to this game. IMHO the addition of AA's made the disparity between the uber grinders and the casual players far too big and caused me, as a casual player, to miss out on too many playing opportunities.  I would prefer something truly alternative (meaning that you lose the gains when you go up in levels) or an enhanced advancement where the enhancements were not of major importance to the game. Respectfully, The Tang </blockquote></span> <div></div>

[Cecil_Stri]

<FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drumly wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>Cecil_Strife wrote:</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Alternate.  Serving or used in place of another; substitute </FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Wow looks like its did what it was supposed to</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>By the definition that we are playing with (and I aggree that the dictionary debate is silly)  <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN> you would have used your AA <I>instead o</I>f going to the next level, not in addition to.  Alternate assumes two different and mutually exclusive choices. Alternating current for example. A substitute or alternate teacher does not teach with the person that they are replacing.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Yeah if you just say alternate yeah you can see it that way.  But its ALTERNATE ADVACEMENT.. Which means Servingor used in place of advanceing your character... Yeah i agree its a dumb debate but people, like yourself, are acting like they didn't mean for AA to be a part of the ladder climbing. </FONT><BR>No matter how you define it, AA wasn't a replacement or a substitute for levels. It was advancement in addition to levels.  The argument that a level 65 with no AA's was better then a level 64 with 200 AA's is kind of silly, at least in my personal experience. Two examples . . . In terms of just power . . . the AA's for mana were far more potent at increasing your mana pool then then you got by just leveling. Second,  it may have been different as a tank, but as a healer, crits were pretty powerful compared to anything else that you got for going up in levels.  </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>What AAs for mana?  <A href="http://eq.crgaming.com/archetype/default.asp?Action=Cat&ClassId=10" target=_blank>http://eq.crgaming.com/archetype/default.asp?Action=Cat&ClassId=10</A>  No AA gave you direct mana.  Mental clarity would increase mana regen (by 3 max) but since you could get flowing thought up to +15.. 3 isn't all that attractive. together for 18.  Also casting mastery gave an increase chance to lower the mana cost.  It was a nice aa but one that you could get with only 18AA (with all prereqs since i know jester will try to bring that up) </FONT><BR><BR>The nail in the coffin of the argument is that a level 65 with 200 AA's was a much different playing experience in terms of interacting with the game environment then a level 65 with 9.  I can say this from personal experience . . . and thanks to my room mate who allowed me to play the uber guy he bought.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>As it should be IMO.  Just like at level 3 coming off the boat its a total differant experiance then leveling in Cazic Thule.  Its a growth and the game is 80% differant</FONT></P> <P><BR>Spells were good - - if you could get the drops or afford the spells . . . thankfully another bad part of EQL that is fixed in this game.<BR><FONT color=#ff3300>Agree on this part but has nothing to do with AA.  And just reinforces the fact that eqL had many flaws that may have given AA a bad light to some people</FONT><BR>I fall solidly on the camp of go ahead and use an alternative to advancing in levels as long as levels remain the important part.  I agree with your point entirely Cecil, I just disagree on your beliefs about that AA in EQL were unimportant in the game.  I don't want to see them be important to this game. IMHO the addition of AA's made the disparity between the uber grinders and the casual players far too big and caused me, as a casual player, to miss out on too many playing opportunities.  I would prefer something truly alternative (meaning that you lose the gains when you go up in levels) or an enhanced advancement where the enhancements were not of major importance to the game.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I didn't mean they were unimportant.  But they were not the end all of advacement.  They were one part of the whole big picture.. gear.. leveling.. and AA.. Leveling being the most important by far.  gear and AA being pretty close IMO</FONT><BR><BR>Respectfully,<BR>The Tang<BR><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Pretty much where do you draw the line in terms of advacement?  You would seem to want to draw it at your play style.  But what about the guy who plays less then you? Maybe we should stop it at whatever level you are.. gear capped ect.<BR>

[Deadjest]

<P>ROFL, what Drumly said.  </P> <P>Dang it Drumly, I went out to eat and you beat me to it.</P> <P>As for the rest, I don't know what is up with your severs but at 65 with all the AA I had I could <STRONG>EASILY </STRONG>out tank a 70th lvl Tank with a grade or two in higher gear.   I tanked a TON over 70th lvl Wars that were just starting AA.</P> <P>I had to take over tanking alot in pick up groups cause higher lvls tanks with no or low AA could not do the job even close to what I could do.   I remember it bugging me cause it slowed down my pulling do to the double job I had to do.    Heck I even delayed lvling cause I was making AA at a much higher rate then tanks 5 lvls above me and only pushed to 69 when my guild pushed me to lvl.</P> <P>I am not sure what was up with your severs.     Either you didnt play a tank and experience it like we did or somthing is just off here.   I know other Tanks that were like me that could easily out tank other tanks that were higher lvls with little to no AA.   I use to get repeated tells to take over tanking from the healers due to the mana cost it was taking to heal higher lvl and better geared tanks.</P> <P>I have been a Puller and MT since early 99,  and left EQL to join this game.   I had 13 RL friends playing this game and half of them were Tanks and we had a few of each Type of Tank and all of us talked and knew that AA was King and lvl became  secondary untill EQL got smart and made it where AA became Level based to at the point I left.</P> <P>And btw, when we talk lvl difference, we are talking around 5 lvls of difference, not 1st lvl tanks, not to mention they couldnt even have AAs.</P> <P>So I don't know what to tell you other then what I said and that is from a 69 SK with 500 AA and a 62 Wizard around 250 AA, and it was a WORLD of difference between the effects how each played.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>Yeah so you have said... many times...</DIV> <DIV><BR>Yet how many classes were in eq?  How many were tanks?.. hmm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also since you mentioned time frame of being level 70.... AA was our for years at that point.... if they didn't have even 500 AA then they SHOULD be weaker... period.. this was years after AAs came out.  Like i said before.. yeah some people are gonna be weaker.. deal with it.. cause its easy to say i want the line of power gaming to end with me and no one be above... but that is not how its gonna work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone doesn't play.. or quits and comes back.. you are saying they should be the same power?  Of course 500 AA isn't evne alot at the time you are speaking of so once again this looks like a jealous rant</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:27 PM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Jealous of what?   Of people who had more AA then me here and there?  If I could get jealous that easy I would have quit EQL long long befor that or have pulled my hair out.   This has nothing to do with being some what stronger or weaker.   That happens all the time and is pretty much standard and that is no different then everyday life.</P> <P>This is about a EQL AA system that creates massive bogging points in the game and large areas only excessable to people that have ENORMOUS amouts of time to spend.   It creates content that is way harder then the standard content climbing progression and where if you don't have Massive Amounts of AA, each and every mob with a standard lvl for the zone it is in is equal to a mini boss.</P> <P>The mobs in EQL without chars with large AA pools would be like going to permafrost and every mob you meet is Tundra Jack.  Tundra Jack is a big difference from the snow lepards in the zone.</P> <P>Its one thing to join the game a few years late and have to play catch up in lvls and equipment and spells, its totaly another when you add the old AA on top of that and to have what you need to just be wanted at whatever level in a standard everyday group.  </P> <P>I never had those issues but I had to watch everyday those that did.   I watched and helped them lvl and get equipment that was good for the lvl but knowing that since they didnt have the AA they were gona be like Tuna being beat with a Fish Billy.   </P> <P>AA due to stack ability made the zones overpowered so that the AA people would not walk through them, and I am not talking about Seekers Rifts, I mean lower end zones.   If you didnt have decent AA, even Nobles Causeway would lay the Smackdown with no forgiveness on ya.   I watched 70th lvl Tanks fold like wet paper cause they thought 60 AA was somthing, least till they got there and that is a wimpy zone compared to what follows.   Would pay some gold to watch that 70th lvl War with 60 AA in a single group operation, take on a Named mob like Warfiend and make some compairsons.</P> <P>So again I ask.</P> <P>Is it the old EQL AA that you want?</P> <P>Or </P> <P>Is it somthing built more in mind on the foundations of which this game is built on?</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>Yeah... and when you start playing a game that is 6 years old... i would assume you would need alot of catch up....  Matter of fact.. you couldn't even catch up in eq1 unless you played a solo class.  So that really is a mute point since very few people were entering the game and they were just making it for people who still played.  Thus the whole AA thing. ]]</DIV> <DIV> <P>"This is about a EQL AA system that creates massive bogging points in the game and large areas only excessable to people that have ENORMOUS amouts of time to spend.   It creates content that is way harder then the standard content climbing progression and where if you don't have Massive Amounts of AA, each and every mob with a standard lvl for the zone it is in is equal to a mini boss."  </P> <P>In your opinion.  Personaly i don't think some person that just dinged 65 should be able to pillage the planes of the gods.</P> <P> </P> <P>Everyone of your posts have been pretty much copy and paste...  With no facts to back it up its all just your opinion.</P></DIV>

[Drumly]

<span><font color="#ffff00">Cecil_Strife wrote: </font></span><span><font color="#ff0000">Yeah i agree its a dumb debate but people, like yourself, are acting like they didn't mean for AA to be a part of the ladder climbing. <font color="#ffff00">Sigh, I am normally a good communicator.  I am not suggesting that they didn't mean for it to be a part of the ladder climbing.  I am stating that it was a part of the ladder climbing.  And I am saying that I would prefer to see a system that wasn't part of the ladder climbing.  I want levels to be ladder climbing.  Two competing sets of ladders doesn't work for casual players. You and I pay the same coin for the same content.  Doubling or tripling the difference in abilities between us means that I don't get to play the content I pay for and since I don't have the time to grind like some people do it means that I will never get there. </font></font></span><span><font color="#ff0000">What AAs for mana? <font color="#ffff00">Specifically the ones that increased your specialization checks by 30% . . . thus reducing the mana that was used on almost a third of your most common spells. . . thus increasing the number of spells you could cast at your level.  For my EQL character this was a huge increase even at the second level (only 15%).   I forget which one it was . . .spell casting mastery I think, as you pointed out.  </font></font></span><span><font color="#ff0000">Also casting mastery gave an increase chance to lower the mana cost.  It was a nice aa but one that you could get with only 18AA <font color="#ffff00">18 AA was not as simple to get as you assume when you are only playing casually.  Let's not forget that the amount of xp you required to level increased in a huge way.  I never got the AA at the third level.  I was prepared to give up on the game by then anyways as everyone was pushing for 70 and I couldn't get a group in my hunting spaces. </font></font></span><span></span><span>"The nail in the coffin of the argument is that a level 65 with 200 AA's was a much different playing experience in terms of interacting with the game environment then a level 65 with 9.  I can say this from personal experience . . . and thanks to my room mate who allowed me to play the uber guy he bought."<font color="#ff0000">As it should be IMO.  Just like at level 3 coming off the boat its a total differant experiance then leveling in Cazic Thule.  Its a growth and the game is 80% differant <font color="#ffff00">And there is the crux of where we disagree.  Being level 3 and coming off the boat is a different experience because of level.  Being level 3 and coming of the boat and not being able to play with other level 3's because they have "special" abilities is an outright problem.  If the level 3 can't play with level 33 . . . that is understandable. Levels should make the content the same for everyone when they get there. </font></font></span><span><font color="#ff0000">I didn't mean they <font color="#ffffff">(AA's) </font> were unimportant.  But they were not the end all of advacement.  They were one part of the whole big picture.. gear.. leveling.. and AA.. Leveling being the most important by far.  gear and AA being pretty close IMO <font color="#ffff00">The problem is that I can totally understand your point of view as I can imagine what it is like to be the uber grinder. You don't seem to understand how horribly difficult the new content was for people that didn't have AA's.  When I am paying my hard earned cash for an expansion, and I am paying my monthly fees, I feel that I should get something for my money.  Developers need to make sure that there is content for me when I get to the level to play it.  AA's made changing the content difficulty necessary.  I think it could be done so that that wasn't the case.  If not, you will continue to enjoy a high end game and I will be forced to look for another gaming model that caters to my needs and interests and makes it possible for me to play. I respect the fact that if there were AA's you would have something to do.  For me, I would rather you were working on levels then AA's. With content designed around levels the content is the same difficulty when everyone gets there.  That is a far better model then AA's IMHO. The designers have understood that the gap between grinders and casual players is too big . . . that is why they added vitality.  Keeping casual players caught up and giving new players a chance to catch up is an important part of this game . . . which is still quite young compared to EQL. Respectfully, The Tang </font></font></span><span><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffff00"> </font></font></span><div></div>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drumly wrote:<BR><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>Cecil_Strife wrote:<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>Yeah i agree its a dumb debate but people, like yourself, are acting like they didn't mean for AA to be a part of the ladder climbing. <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Sigh, I am normally a good communicator.  I am not suggesting that they didn't mean for it to be a part of the ladder climbing.  I am stating that it was a part of the ladder climbing.  And I am saying that I would prefer to see a system that wasn't part of the ladder climbing.  I want levels to be ladder climbing.  Two competing sets of ladders doesn't work for casual players. You and I pay the same coin for the same content.  Doubling or tripling the difference in abilities between us means that I don't get to play the content I pay for and since I don't have the time to grind like some people do it means that I will never get there.<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>What AAs for mana?<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Specifically the ones that increased your specialization checks by 30% . . . thus reducing the mana that was used on almost a third of your most common spells. . . thus increasing the number of spells you could cast at your level.  For my EQL character this was a huge increase even at the second level (only 15%).   I forget which one it was . . .spell casting mastery I think, as you pointed out.  <BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>Also casting mastery gave an increase chance to lower the mana cost.  It was a nice aa but one that you could get with only 18AA<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>18 AA was not as simple to get as you assume when you are only playing casually.  Let's not forget that the amount of xp you required to level increased in a huge way.  I never got the AA at the third level.  I was prepared to give up on the game by then anyways as everyone was pushing for 70 and I couldn't get a group in my hunting spaces.<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>"The nail in the coffin of the argument is that a level 65 with 200 AA's was a much different playing experience in terms of interacting with the game environment then a level 65 with 9.  I can say this from personal experience . . . and thanks to my room mate who allowed me to play the uber guy he bought."<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>As it should be IMO.  Just like at level 3 coming off the boat its a total differant experiance then leveling in Cazic Thule.  Its a growth and the game is 80% differant<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>And there is the crux of where we disagree.  Being level 3 and coming off the boat is a different experience because of level.  Being level 3 and coming of the boat and not being able to play with other level 3's because they have "special" abilities is an outright problem.  If the level 3 can't play with level 33 . . . that is understandable. Levels should make the content the same for everyone when they get there.<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>I didn't mean they <FONT color=#ffffff>(AA's) </FONT> were unimportant.  But they were not the end all of advacement.  They were one part of the whole big picture.. gear.. leveling.. and AA.. Leveling being the most important by far.  gear and AA being pretty close IMO<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>The problem is that I can totally understand your point of view as I can imagine what it is like to be the uber grinder. You don't seem to understand how horribly difficult the new content was for people that didn't have AA's.  When I am paying my hard earned cash for an expansion, and I am paying my monthly fees, I feel that I should get something for my money.  Developers need to make sure that there is content for me when I get to the level to play it.  AA's made changing the content difficulty necessary.  I think it could be done so that that wasn't the case.  If not, you will continue to enjoy a high end game and I will be forced to look for another gaming model that caters to my needs and interests and makes it possible for me to play.<BR><BR>I respect the fact that if there were AA's you would have something to do.  For me, I would rather you were working on levels then AA's. With content designed around levels the content is the same difficulty when everyone gets there.  That is a far better model then AA's IMHO. <BR><BR>The designers have understood that the gap between grinders and casual players is too big . . . that is why they added vitality.  Keeping casual players caught up and giving new players a chance to catch up is an important part of this game . . . which is still quite young compared to EQL.<BR><BR>Respectfully,<BR><BR>The Tang<BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffff00><BR><BR><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You made a poor assumption.  Just cause i liked AA doesn't mean i was an uber grinder.. and infact i was not.  I had about 200 AA.  Full time job.. friends.. and i played when i could but i played the game the way it was ment to and i did well in terms of gear and AA.  </P> <P> </P> <P>18 AA was hard to get instantly... yeah.. but you see that what it seems like you and every other person that complain about this wants.. they don't want to put the effort into getting the power.  Yes i know your next reply is gonna be thats not the case but i don't have all the time in the world either yet i loved the AA system and was able to get the key abilities i needed.  (and no i don't want to hear your tank argument again jester so you can save us another repeat post on it since that was a balance issue not an aa thing)</P> <P>YOu will always see people that won't invite a person to group for whatever reason.  You have raids and encounters now where some people won't invite healers unless they have group cure elemental.. you have people that wouldn't invite you if you have grey gear.. you have people that won't give you the time of the day unless you meet the stadards they set... thats life and your proly better off not grouping with those kinda people anyway.</P> <P>If you don't play the game you SHOULD NOT get the ability to do everything.  That would trivalize it for anyone that does play the game..This is not a hard core or casual argument (which has always been more complicated then just i play alot and he doesn't ... alot of grey area in this argument).  </P> <P><BR>Lastly.. i don't get some of the content you play as well.  I bought blood lines and it was all grey to me.. I paid for it.. yet i don't complain about it.  Along with afew other things they have added that i don't get to experiance... but i don't see a problem with that... more power to the people that do i say.  Truth is the game is always gonna grow up now down.  More people are gonna level not delevel.  So the game needs to be designed with that in mind<BR></P>

[Deadjest]

<P>You talk about facts, but I as of yet to see you come up with proof of anything other then your own opinion.   I am really really curious what type of class you played.  If I hear caster I am going to bust a gut. </P> <P>As for Hardness, I would expect anyone who started the game and made it to 65 would be able to play the same content as anyone else who was 65, they might have some catching up in equipment to do but a grade down in equipment is not the same is being a few hundred AA down in abilities.</P> <P>Go look up all the Shadow Knight AA on casters realm if you want facts, read what it all does.   If you have played a Tank at all you will be able to pretty much figure out how effective the AA is just by look at it and thinking about it some.   When you see ALL the different types of Life Taps that were going off and constantly procing, with Proc Upgrades in how much they do and how often they go off with Spell Crits, Healing Crits, Other SK boosting effects on top of that,  Group heal and Mana Taps.   Life Tap Dots, Dot Upgrades, Dot Crits and how all it together was a constant flow of healing coming in for me.   Thats not even talking about Offensive Up Grades and Defensive Upgrades, that kept stacking and stacking, boosting me higher and higher.   Add in some proc Life Tap weapons with AA to make them go crazy and you have yet again, another felt upgrade.</P> <P>And that is not even adding in Utility AA I had.</P> <P>You Add all that together and you are talking about a 69 SK Avatar compared to a AAless 69 SK.</P> <P>Content that I played in would murder a AAless Tank or drain two healers.</P> <P>But all the AAs for the SK, is right there on Casters Realm, so go check out the facts, its all there and has nothing to do with my opinion.</P> <P> </P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>Narrowing the problems down to even less classes eh?  So now hybrids?<BR><BR>I have never said what i have said was fact.. i have used Imo (which means Im my opinion) and many other such things to show this.  But what do i gotta prove?  Nothing.. I am just saying the info and letting people decide for themselves since all you want to do is try to make your opinion fact...  When fact is EQL is still here and doin well.. which means.. IT DID NOT FAIL.   Which is the whole point of this thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if i was a caster you would bust a gut eh?  Why cause casters didn't have problem? Are you elluding that i was right that it was a balance thing and not an AA problem?</DIV>

[Drumly]

<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00"><a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=44840"><span>Cecil_Strife</span></a></font><font color="#ffff00"> wrote:</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">You made a poor assumption.  Just cause i liked AA doesn't mean i was an uber grinder.. and infact i was not.  I had about 200 AA.  Full time job.. friends.. and i played when i could but i played the game the way it was ment to and i did well in terms of gear and AA. </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"> 18 AA was hard to get instantly... yeah.. but you see that what it seems like you and every other person that complain about this wants.. they don't want to put the effort into getting the power.  Yes i know your next reply is gonna be thats not the case but i don't have all the time in the world either yet i loved the AA system and was able to get the key abilities i needed.  (and no i don't want to hear your tank argument again jester so you can save us another repeat post on it since that was a balance issue not an aa thing)</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff">My appologies . . . I simply meant that you grinded out more than me as I assume you played more then me. I can however imagine the uber grinders dilema . . . even if it isn't yours.  I certainly never meant to insinuate that you have no life.  I appreciate how you have not jumped to the conclusion that I couldn't do anything because of the possibility that I was a crappy player.  <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></font></font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff"><span>Your assumption that I don't want to put effort into getting power is incorrect.  I think I have been pretty clear about that.  I should put in the effort for power.  The power that I get should come from the level that I have gained and the associated gains in abilities.  The key abilities that you needed shouldn't have come from AA's they should have come from leveling. Then there are no balance issues with the content as the content is balanced for you and me both.  </span> </font></font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">YOu will always see people that won't invite a person to group for whatever reason.  You have raids and encounters now where some people won't invite healers unless they have group cure elemental.. you have people that wouldn't invite you if you have grey gear.. you have people that won't give you the time of the day unless you meet the stadards they set... thats life and your proly better off not grouping with those kinda people anyway.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff">True . . . but when the alternative is soloing I can do that fairly well on my kids x-box! (If they would let me play) I know why people want group cure elemental in groups, and it makes sense.  However, it shouldn't have been an ability that needed to be selected as an advancement, it should have been given to everyone in the class that needs it.  Although not the same as AA (you have no chance to gain it unless you picked it at the right time) it is precisely the example of the kind of thing that makes the game difficult for people to group up.  In a this kind of game we want as many people to group up as want groups.</font>If you don't play the game you SHOULD NOT get the ability to do everything.  That would trivalize it for anyone that does play the game..This is not a hard core or casual argument (which has always been more complicated then just i play alot and he doesn't ... alot of grey area in this argument).  </font></p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff">With respect, you are missing my point.  I should be able to play everything, (after all I am paying for it) . . . just not at the same time you do.  The reward for advancement should be new content first . . . AA's don't do that . . they made old content easier.  In the level system you kill something that cons blue and I kill something that cons blue we get the same reward.  You get abilities that make it easier . . . faster kills for you but the same experience reward.  This is different to leveling because as you gain more power in levels the reward for the easier content is worth less to you.  With levels you can play content that challenges you and content that will challenge me when I get there.  With AA's you get new content that will take me longer to get there and the content that I am at without AA's is easier for you with the same rewards.  This is what I argue is unbalancing. No matter how you shake it, I lose twice.  I can't gain the xp you do . . . you can kill the same things I do but faster . . .  so you can stop and grab those AA's more efficiently then me and I can't play the new content becuase it has to be hard for the superhero you. The grind has become more difficult for the casual player and easier for a player who has more time to play. I simply want the grind to be the same and levels to drive content so that you are never my chief competition for the things that I can kill but having an easier time doing it.Really, in the system that you are advocating,  by the time I get to the new content I am left forced to repeat the same exact drudgery you did while you were waiting for the next expansion.  But of course, I arrive and have to wait even though the expansion is out.  That is silly (imho). There has to be a better answer for both of us.Putting it another way.  You are at level 50 and I am not.  You would seriously like me to have to stop and wait at 50 for as long as you did in order to be allowed to play on the next tier? The expansion comes out in Sept and I should be 50 by the time it comes out.  Shouldn't we both be able to play it?  But if the advancement path to that tier is made longer for you then it is also longer for me.  That is needlessly spreading us apart.  You should have something to do . . . but it shouldn't be changing the mechanics of the game.  At level 50 you and I should experience the same content the same way.  We should have different stratagies, different play styles, but the challenge should be the same.</font></font><font color="#ffff00">Lastly.. i don't get some of the content you play as well.  I bought blood lines and it was all grey to me.. I paid for it.. yet i don't complain about it.  Along with afew other things they have added that i don't get to experiance... but i don't see a problem with that... more power to the people that do i say.  Truth is the game is always gonna grow up now down.  More people are gonna level not delevel.  So the game needs to be designed with that in mind.<font color="#ffffff">Ah . . . I agree although I didn't play that new content either.  And you should complain, I feel just as strongly that new content should be playable and enjoyable for you too.  The economic argument seriously works both ways.  The newest adventure was a great idea (imho) as it provided things for all of us to do and that is a good thing.  "More people are gonna level" is what I hope happens.  If the treadmill is levels then I will happily climb the mountain slower than you.  I feel sad that you don't get experience anymore when you take on challenges.  That is the problem and I hope that they address it.  By the time 60% of the population is ready for new content and levels there should be stuff to feed your habit. When some aspect of the game makes a set of activities in the game equally worthy, equally rewarding and less difficult for a group of players then I have a concern.As an aside . . .I hope that the ATI graphics card issue is resolved soon.  I would rather play then type, regardless of how stimulating the discussion <span>:smileytongue:Respectfully,The Tang</span></font></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Drumly on <span class="date_text">07-22-2005</span><span class="time_text">04:16 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Drumly on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:17 PM</span>

[Cecil_Stri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drumly wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=44840" target=_blank><SPAN>Cecil_Strife</SPAN></A></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00> wrote:</FONT><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You made a poor assumption.  Just cause i liked AA doesn't mean i was an uber grinder.. and infact i was not.  I had about 200 AA.  Full time job.. friends.. and i played when i could but i played the game the way it was ment to and i did well in terms of gear and AA. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><BR>18 AA was hard to get instantly... yeah.. but you see that what it seems like you and every other person that complain about this wants.. they don't want to put the effort into getting the power.  Yes i know your next reply is gonna be thats not the case but i don't have all the time in the world either yet i loved the AA system and was able to get the key abilities i needed.  (and no i don't want to hear your tank argument again jester so you can save us another repeat post on it since that was a balance issue not an aa thing)<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>My appologies . . . I simply meant that you grinded out more than me as I assume you played more then me. I can however imagine the uber grinders dilema . . . even if it isn't yours.  I certainly never meant to insinuate that you have no life.  I appreciate how you have not jumped to the conclusion that I couldn't do anything because of the possibility that I was a crappy player.  <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN>Your assumption that I don't want to put effort into getting power is incorrect.  I think I have been pretty clear about that.  I should put in the effort for power.  The power that I get should come from the level that I have gained and the associated gains in abilities.  The key abilities that you needed shouldn't have come from AA's they should have come from leveling. Then there are no balance issues with the content as the content is balanced for you and me both.  </SPAN> </FONT><BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>YOu will always see people that won't invite a person to group for whatever reason.  You have raids and encounters now where some people won't invite healers unless they have group cure elemental.. you have people that wouldn't invite you if you have grey gear.. you have people that won't give you the time of the day unless you meet the stadards they set... thats life and your proly better off not grouping with those kinda people anyway.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>True . . . but when the alternative is soloing I can do that fairly well on my kids x-box! (If they would let me play) I know why people want group cure elemental in groups, and it makes sense.  However, it shouldn't have been an ability that needed to be selected as an advancement, it should have been given to everyone in the class that needs it.  Although not the same as AA (you have no chance to gain it unless you picked it at the right time) it is precisely the example of the kind of thing that makes the game difficult for people to group up.  In a this kind of game we want as many people to group up as want groups.<BR><BR></FONT>If you don't play the game you SHOULD NOT get the ability to do everything.  That would trivalize it for anyone that does play the game..This is not a hard core or casual argument (which has always been more complicated then just i play alot and he doesn't ... alot of grey area in this argument).  </FONT></P><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#ffffff>With respect, you are missing my point.  I should be able to play everything, (after all I am paying for it) . . . just not at the same time you do.  The reward for advancement should be new content first . . . AA's don't do that . . they made old content easier.  In the level system you kill something that cons blue and I kill something that cons blue we get the same reward.  You get abilities that make it easier . . . faster kills for you but the same experience reward.  This is different to leveling because as you gain more power in levels the reward for the easier content is worth less to you.  With levels you can play content that challenges you and content that will challenge me when I get there.  With AA's you get new content that will take me longer to get there and the content that I am at without AA's is easier for you with the same rewards.  This is what I argue is unbalancing. No matter how you shake it, I lose twice.  I can't gain the xp you do . . . you can kill the same things I do but faster . . .  so you can stop and grab those AA's more efficiently then me and I can't play the new content becuase it has to be hard for the superhero you. The grind has become more difficult for the casual player and easier for a player who has more time to play. I simply want the grind to be the same and levels to drive content so that you are never my chief competition for the things that I can kill but having an easier time doing it.<BR><BR>Really, in the system that you are advocating,  by the time I get to the new content I am left forced to repeat the same exact drudgery you did while you were waiting for the next expansion.  But of course, I arrive and have to wait even though the expansion is out.  That is silly (imho). There has to be a better answer for both of us.<BR><BR>Putting it another way.  You are at level 50 and I am not.  You would seriously like me to have to stop and wait at 50 for as long as you did in order to be allowed to play on the next tier? The expansion comes out in Sept and I should be 50 by the time it comes out.  Shouldn't we both be able to play it?  But if the advancement path to that tier is made longer for you then it is also longer for me.  That is needlessly spreading us apart.  You should have something to do . . . but it shouldn't be changing the mechanics of the game.  At level 50 you and I should experience the same content the same way.  We should have different stratagies, different play styles, but the challenge should be the same.<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Lastly.. i don't get some of the content you play as well.  I bought blood lines and it was all grey to me.. I paid for it.. yet i don't complain about it.  Along with afew other things they have added that i don't get to experiance... but i don't see a problem with that... more power to the people that do i say.  Truth is the game is always gonna grow up now down.  More people are gonna level not delevel.  So the game needs to be designed with that in mind.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffffff>Ah . . . I agree although I didn't play that new content either.  And you should complain, I feel just as strongly that new content should be playable and enjoyable for you too.  The economic argument seriously works both ways.  The newest adventure was a great idea (imho) as it provided things for all of us to do and that is a good thing.  "More people are gonna level" is what I hope happens.  If the treadmill is levels then I will happily climb the mountain slower than you.  I feel sad that you don't get experience anymore when you take on challenges.  That is the problem and I hope that they address it.  By the time 60% of the population is ready for new content and levels there should be stuff to feed your habit. <BR><BR>When some aspect of the game makes a set of activities in the game equally worthy, equally rewarding and less difficult for a group of players then I have a concern.<BR><BR>As an aside . . .I hope that the ATI graphics card issue is resolved soon.  I would rather play then type, regardless of how stimulating the discussion <SPAN>:smileytongue:<BR><BR>Respectfully,<BR><BR>The Tang<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Drumly on <SPAN class=date_text>07-22-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:16 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Drumly on <SPAN class=date_text>07-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Group cure elemental is an eq2 ability non AA.. but is a trait you choose. I didn't mean to imply that you are a poor player.  Actually you are alot more well thought out and intellgent then someone else posting same side you are.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Yes i would be happy if we reached a middle ground.  Greying out on somethings would be ok.. but some abilities i would love to see should stick around.  Truth is AA effected some classes more then others.. that is a balance that should be fixed in eq2.  I agree 100%.  I just would love to get the same outta splitpaw (for example) as you are.  Only thing i gain out of it is i get to farm a zone every 8 hours</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:52 PM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>You must have somthing to prove or you would not be continuing with this talk.</P> <P>And AA DID FAIL.     Failure does not mean the end, or many failed goverment and business programs would not still be going on.  </P> <P>It FAILED to balance the game.   And it FAILED to deliver content to all the people who reached the lvls to play it and forced them  in another direction in a heavy and non needed delaying action.</P> <P>As for balance, did you ever consider that the imbalance in the game was compounded even further by a imbalanced AA system? </P> <P>As for casters, yes, since I played both I know their problems were different.   A weak caster just slows down a group, a weak Tank can spell a groups distruction much much faster. </P> <P>I play a SK and Warlock right now, and it still the same situation.   MT's suffer way more from lack of upgrades then casters do and it effects a group many times over in comparison.</P> <P>Again, I am not against AA per say, I am against them being done in the fashion that they were done in EQL.  That system failed, this game has a chance to learn and go beyond it.    If the other system worked so well, many would not have left it for this game or other games.   And I still have RL friends who play EQL, they agree with me that the AA system is a failure, but they have put to much time in not to see it to the bitter end and for the sake of seeing the end.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV>Ah you see no i don't have anything to prove.. i just have so little to do in game right now that i gotta do something like post on these forums every now and then to keep my mind occupied</DIV> <DIV><BR>Yeah i have friends that love the AA system... its all just hearsay</DIV>

[Nature]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cecil_Strife wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ah you see no i don't have anything to prove.. i just have so little to do in game right now that i gotta do something like post on these forums every now and then to keep my mind occupied</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Roll up an alt like the rest of us have. Give your self something to do rather than just sitting there on your hands. What Deadjester states here, and i quote. " <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>The problem is AA kept stacking with each expansion and so the content had to go above and beyond its standard smooth ride in its growing hardness with each lvl to where it was taking big steps.   Which ment you bogged down unless you spent your time spliting your XP in two different directions and if you did split your XP then you bogged down anyway do to the fact you were doing one or the other.</P> <P>There is a major issue when AA becomes More Important then the Level of the Character and the Equipment and the Spells he has earned.  And for the most part lets face it.   All the old AA system really did was solidify many a players hold on content a build a uber elite system.   Its one thing for a gaming system to seperate Hardcore Raiders  vs Casual Players, its another thing for the game to put a stangle hold on Hard Players vs Hardcore Raiders. </P> <P>I am not against AA as a idea, I am against EQL form of AA."</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>is exactly the way i feel about the thought of eq2 aa. I am not totally against some form of AA but what AA's did in eq1(live) was horribly wrong and created a huge rift between the player base. They probably should have just thrown in a hell level before you reached 50 and then removed it after the next expansion. Im sure you wouldnt have liked that, but neither would i have enjoyed a hell level but thats the price ya pay to be 50.</P> <P> </P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Nature on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:25 PM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Haha I was just thinking that from reading the pattern in your posts, they were no longer really producing anything with any substance,  just more or less floating along.   Sorta like Tag your it, your turn to post.  </P> <P>I like it.</P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<P><SPAN class=time_text>Yeah well.. Thing about it is.. as you have said before... AA wasn't enough to make everyone leave eq1.. (and when you did you went to eq2 which is another SoE game..)  but not having it is making people at this level leave like crazy.. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Money is in making AA and so... They proly are gonna do it..</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>My whole point is it didn't fail.. you just don't like it.  Totaly differant things</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Cecil_Strife on <span class=date_text>07-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:58 AM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Heh the money is in the majority who are not at the top.</P> <P>But it was never about AA.</P> <P>It was about EQL AA, but i guess some never understood the difference. </P> <P> </P>

[Kutark]

<DIV>Ok, tried to play a little catchup on this thread as i had forgotten about it.  So i'm kind of shooting from the hip so to speak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really on just the AA issue, i honestly don't believe it ever became a necessity except for the "hardest core" raid zones/mobs.  Yes, a lot of guilds requires certain AA's, and understandably so.  I played on mith marr, and knew many people in both AL and Descendants when they came around and guilds like that didn't recruit the casual player.  If you wanted to see the highest/most difficult content in the game, you had to work for it.  And i am in 100% agreement with that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Same thing applies in RL, just because you exist in this world doesn't mean that you're entitled to drive a Maserati Quattroporte or insert assorted supercar.  The same thing goes for the game, you pay to access the world, what you do with it is up to you.  I don't believe for a second you are entitled to see anything in the game.  I think you should have to work for it, earn it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is AA's should be (IMHO) the stop gap that allows more players an opportunity to catch up and play the content that they are paying for.  Originally, it was a way to provide your characters "tweaks".  When the tweaks became manditory for playing content . . . they also became manditory for getting groups.<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never in the history of my character saw someone requiring a certain AA or # of AA's to be in a group. LDON was the last expansion i purchased and i played until a couple months before whichever the next one was after that?  Perhaps that changed after i was off, or was different on another server, but on mith marr i didnt see one post stating anything about an AA req for the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>The casual player is left behind. The explorers are left behind.  The people who want to do a million quests are left behind. EQL already meets the needs of players who have a ton of hours to play.  I want to pay my nickel for a game that caters to my needs too.<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this state of the game (EQ2) i dont see how this applies at all?  There is plenty of content for any real level range 20+  (I say real because in all honesty if you just solo XP you can get from 3 to 20 in a week, or 2 weeks if your a casual player). The game should be catering to what the majority of the players that play the game are doing at that point in time.  Which is why this expansion is going to be 45+ because you'll notice none of the zones 40 or so and below are crowded, most of the population is in the 40's, and the average level will only get higher as the expansion approaches.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>So the question is . . . is there an implementation of AA's, such as the excellent suggestion of tiered AA's, that will meet the needs of those who play lots and will allow average and casual players the same opportunity to experience expanded content.  I don't need every zone . . . but I think more then half is reasonable<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can definitely agree with this.  I would even say 70% would be reasonable, then again i dont know how casual a player you are, that is a broad term <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kutark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>Heh try looking up Alternitive somtime, it might suprise ya.</P> <P>While people are looking up Alternitive, lets talk again about AA in EQL.</P> <P>It was a idea that was a Time Sink, and that is all it was.  Time Sinks don't work for the majority of players to the degree that EQL AA went to.   It was counter productive compared the time the majority of the players had to play and the content they payed to see.</P> <P>EQL AA just doesnt work in face of the fact that the majority of the players have work and family to tend to and other functions on top of that.  </P> <P>The problem is AA kept stacking with each expansion and so the content had to go above and beyond its standard smooth ride in its growing hardness with each lvl to where it was taking big steps.   Which ment you bogged down unless you spent your time spliting your XP in two different directions and if you did split your XP then you bogged down anyway do to the fact you were doing one or the other.</P> <P>There is a major issue when AA becomes More Important then the Level of the Character and the Equipment and the Spells he has earned.  And for the most part lets face it.   All the old AA system really did was solidify many a players hold on content a build a uber elite system.   Its one thing for a gaming system to seperate Hardcore Raiders  vs Casual Players, its another thing for the game to put a stangle hold on Hard Players vs Hardcore Raiders. </P> <P>I am not against AA as a idea, I am against EQL form of AA.</P> <P>If you put aside EQL AA and think about how AA could work within this system, you might end up with a really great system that works more towards promoting content and a uniqueness among  the Characters. </P> <P>Since we have a system based upon Greying out, stick to it.   When certain level based AA are surpassed, it greys out.   That way you don't have a constant stacking issue that goes way beyond Level and Equipment that is hard earned.</P> <P>What I am fond of from our talks now is AA that builds a Characters Traits.    That REALLY takes away from alot of content overpowering and starts making characters really different from each other and you shouldnt have to face major imbalance issues with different characters and content.  </P> <P>So when we talk AA, what are we really talking about, I keep asking this and not many reply.</P> <P>Do we want AA built upon the foundations of this system or upon the strangling form of EQL?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First of all it is alternative, and i'm not exactly sure what i should be surprised about.  I know exactly what the word means.  Regardless, AA i dont think were a timesink at all.  The purpose of AA was because the vast majority of players were max level at the time it was put in, and most people were raiding, trying to get better equipment.  The idea was to give you something that you're XP could apply to.  This game doesn't have anything like that right now, you hit 50 and oh well, you go around and slaughter stuff for the hopes of loot and nothing else.  Thats the only form of advancement as it stands for high level players in EQ2 right now.</P> <P>A good example of a timesink is FFXI, once you hit 50 you had to do a big [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] long raid level quest just to be able to advance the next 5 levels, rinse and repeat to the level 75 cap. A timesink by nature is something designed to make something take more time then it should, such as a drill sgt making a person clean a toilet with a toothbrush.</P> <P>As for the expansions including GoD and after, i honestly didnt play so i dont know how it progressed from there, as far as i was concerned the game was dead, it was hemorhaging players like crazy, there wasn't anything really attainable, and better games had come out.  Time to leave.</P> <P>If everything is as you say it is now, i can certainly understand you being against an EQ1 version of AA, but as it stands you have to look at it when it was introduced, not when it had been in the game for 4 expansions.</P> <P>I don't like the idea of greyed out level based AA's for one reason, they are pointless.  Lets be honest, there are lots of things that people do that are stupid, like spend ridiculous amounts of plat twinking level 20 chars.  You chew through those levels so fast there is never a point in spending that kind of money.  In EQ1 you could resell the equip so i had no issues with people doing it.  But throwing 20 plat at a twink to get adept 3's and pristine imbued equipment that you will use for 2 weeks? why?</P> <P>Level based AA's would fall to the same problem.  Why the hell would i spend 40 addl hours going through say 20 to 30 when i could put it all into reg XP and get to the point where the AA would of been useless anyways?  The only way it would be viable is if the AA's some how made you go through the levels 40% faster in that it evened out.  But at that point you're just making things complicated for no reason other than to be complicated.</P> <P>I think AA needs to be exactly what it was in EQ1.  A way to add a little extra to your char.  You're a necro, want some regen?  You're a pally, how about just a little extra HP.  It adds char differentiation.  Maybe much later in EQ1's life it became another monster entirely, but the way it was set up initially was awesome.  Somebody with 100AA's at the same level with same equip as someone with 0 wasn't really all that much better.  But they were still enough better that there was some pride in having them, a reason to work for it so to speak.</P> <P>All mmo's have a life, they start out, like a baby, simple, unassuming, then get progressively more complicated until they die, just like anything else.</P> <P> </P> <P>IMO this next expansion for EQ2 needs to make 50 to 60 just like it was in EQ1, horribly slow, but make the levels worthwhile.  They need to start making lots of unique loot.  Items that are designed for a specific class but can still be used by others (20int wand with +1 to summoning, etc).  I've said it time and time again, items are what made EQ1 the game that it was.  Everything else was secondary.</P>

[Deadjest]

<P>Heh at this point I think this post has beat to death.</P> <P>I have stated over and over how it works and showed where it failed, and I and many others that I know don't mind a EQ2 form of AA but DREAD a EQL time sink and content killing AA.</P> <P>So lets agree to disagree at this point.</P>

[Khims]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>Heh at this point I think this post has beat to death.</P> <P>I have stated over and over how it works and showed<FONT color=#ff0000>(and you butchered the truth and made it just a slant towards what you believe)</FONT> where it failed <FONT color=#ff0000>(really should add an In my opinion here)</FONT>, and I and many others that I know don't mind a EQ2 form of AA but DREAD a EQL time sink and content killing AA.</P> <P>So lets agree to disagree at this point.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Deadjest]

<P>You mean like where you added in IMO about me butchering it?  :smileywink:</P> <P>If ya can't practice what you preach, don't bother.</P> <P>But this post is more or less dead to me, the revamp is almost out and its time to see what pattern starts emerging from it so talk at this point, is bascily chatter.<BR>After the revamp if things again come up about AA, you may see me again.  </P> <P>This post is now all your's, do with as you will.</P> <P>IMO</P> <P>=P</P>