The day of the tank is over [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Ethelwo

06-29-2005, 05:09 PM

<DIV>All the negative changes being forced upon the fighter archtype will spell the downfall of that archtype. The reason is Fun. The fighter archtype will no longer be a fun to play. SOE has completely omited the fun factor from all their decisions regarding the fighter archtype. If you want to have any fun in the game you'll have to play a scout or a caster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a L50 Berserker and a L40 monk and just made a scout/bard one day a troubador. Why? Because I see the writing on the wall.</DIV>

Straylig

06-29-2005, 05:18 PM

I suppose that depends on your definition of 'fun.' As long as I'm able to contribute, I'll be happy. For me, it's all about the group/guild/raid dynamic.

Dorma

06-29-2005, 05:19 PM

I have to agree, especially since i just watched a templar solo Broodmother, and with the combat changes i have read so far they are working on, seems like it would be even easier for them to do it. What's even funnier is watching a scout kite Tundra Jack even though last i read kiting was fixed. If i do stick around after all the changes, i will make a Conjurer probably.

Toplana

06-29-2005, 05:21 PM

You might want to stop making statements and wait for the complete combat revamp being published. Are fighters being changed, I am sure of it. But I am also sure that this goes for every other archtype and also for the mobs. What then will be the flavor of the month, no one knows.. Yiikes, i sound like a fanboi! I shutup now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

Drtydog

06-29-2005, 07:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote: <DIV>All the negative changes being forced upon the fighter archtype will spell the downfall of that archtype. The reason is Fun. The fighter archtype will no longer be a fun to play. SOE has completely omited the fun factor from all their decisions regarding the fighter archtype. If you want to have any fun in the game you'll have to play a scout or a caster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a L50 Berserker and a L40 monk and just made a scout/bard one day a troubador. Why? Because I see the writing on the wall.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Give that scout some time and then let me know how you like getting the crap beat outta ya everyday...:smileyvery-happy:

Squallaby

06-29-2005, 08:08 PM

/sarcasm on *now commences the beating of the breast, gnashing of teeth, pulling of hair* /sarcasm off Honestly.. do you REALLY read the patch notes or dev posts before you go off and make very very general statements about things you really only know a tiny bit about? 1) Buff stacking (which btw most classes CAN'T do) is going to change as part of the combat changes.. all abilities are BY DEFAULT going to be flagged as no stack, then they will go back and CHANGE the ones they WANT to stack. Instead of having things stack by default then having to go back and turn things off, it gives them better control. 2) As has been said many many many times before.. they are changing and ADDING new abilities to ALL the archetypes.. ALL. 3) These changes weren't meant to go live yet.. now if you want to make a few posts about how SoE REALLLLY needs to work on thier QA/QC testing, I'd be MORE than happy to back you up, cause honestly.. its needs a LOT of work.. and lot is an understatement. I'm not sure where the breakdown lies.. if its that the internal testers just don't do it, or if there is a serious breakdown in moving a patch from test to live somewhere.. I dunno.. but something is SCREWED up. 4) But really, fighters are not "ruined" are not "broken" are not "worthless" get a grip I'm a monk.. none of my stuff ever stacked anyways <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

Ethelwo

06-29-2005, 08:33 PM

I tell you what, when something positive happens in the game I'll make a post on that, until then I'll stay on the negative because thats all we have seen so far.

Tomanak

06-29-2005, 11:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote: I tell you what, when something positive happens in the game I'll make a post on that, until then I'll stay on the negative because thats all we have seen so far. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> This is maudlin Bull****. There have been a number of 'positive' changes made to the game. The modifications to the guild UI, the changes to the skill screen, the addition of menders in TS and Nek, the introduction of new zones, etc. If all you see is negative, perhaps you need to stop wasting your time and money on a game you obviously hate. I hear CoH just released a new expansion pack.

06-30-2005, 12:23 AM

I used to only play mages.. when i changed to a Tank as my main character i was super surprised at how much fun it was. Being a tank has JACK to do with dps.. it has EVERYTHING to do with strategy and group formation/management. If you enjoy being the strategist and the guy who makes the calls and sets the pace of battles then you'll enjoy a tank even if you do zero DPS. A tank who is whining about thier dps getting nerfed is likely a terrible tank.. of which there are PLENTY. And a terrible tank means a dead group.. plain and simple. The only thing SOE has to provide a tank is taunting ability and dmg absorption as far as i'm concerned because the rest is strategy(which SOE can't provide).

TopHatJon

06-30-2005, 02:53 AM

<DIV>I couldn't have said it better myself Ayun.</DIV>

ScottyF

06-30-2005, 09:11 AM

<DIV>Send in the tanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really though, I've seen identical sentiments post percieved-future-changes as well present in just about every class there is. Personally I'm totally fine with how things are and stubbornly resist what I view as totally unescissary revamps, but I'm not going to dismiss them as being "Bad" and froth-mouthingly rave about them on forums without even experiencing how things play out first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they turn out to be as bad as everyone seems to think they will be, then I'll be right beside you with the torch and pitchforks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Maeldir

06-30-2005, 09:29 AM

Ayun for President! Tanks are Tanks. They take damage and are walls. DPS are DPS. They do the damage and goodies.

Despak

06-30-2005, 10:34 AM

One problem with your and alot of your fans posts there Ayun; you, I think, are only counting that as part of raid/group play. Some DPS is needed for solo play, not everyone plays at the same time and hence days come up when you are able to head off and knock out a couple of solo quests before guildmates log on. Also read the class descriptions, some tank classes were supposed to be DPS centric, not walls. Alot of Berserkers especially are somewhat concerned with losing their DPS and becomming an almost poor mans version of a Guardian. By your wonderful sweeping statement you say all Berserkers concerned over DPS loss are bad tanks? But to the OP I say this; shut up and wait till it's all finished before you start whining.

ScottyF

06-30-2005, 10:38 AM

<DIV>I was going to bring this point up, but I'm only a Ratonga and not full of smarts like everyone else. Plus I've never played any and can only go from my experiences seeing my guildmates in action. Monks and berserkers especially have dps at least partially in mind.. As for paladins and SK's, well.. all I can say is that one of them for some reason has better rezzes than me. :smileymad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless.. I'm still "wait and see" on matters like this and the other variants of it troubling every single other class board in the face of these upcoming and progressive changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

06-30-2005, 06:40 PM

<DIV>The truth is that SOE made a few mistakes at the beginning of the game, namely saying there'd be a class or two who was both DPS centric AND hard as a rock (or could dodge most attacks). The reason it was a mistake is because it makes many many other classes obsolete and not useful. Why would anyone be a rogue or mage if tanks out-DPS them all and don't die in 2 hits? Remember, this is exactly how it was when the game came out. So, SOE is now taking action to fix thier original mistakes, and has been trying to fix this mistake ever since they realized just how over-powered tanks were. Who cares, SOE makes mistakes then tries to fix them.. this is how all MMO's are. This big balance patch will only fix things even more to the traditional roles of characters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are reasons MMO's and all RPG's have traditional roles.. it's so there is a reason to play all the different classes and so that they are useful. I'm one of those people who think that all classes should actually have a role and a use when grouped. Following traditional Roleplay game roles accomplishes this. There are likely other ways to make all classes useful but following traditional roleplay roles does this just fine. What will not accomplish this is if one class is named "God Class" and it can tank anything, out DPS 9/10ths of the other classes, and heal itself. To the tanks upset about the new balance all i can say is that i'm sorry they're nerfing your Demi-God Class. But to choose a class which seemed to have everything and not expect some nerfs is expecting too much. Hopefully in the patch they'll work on making all tanks equally useful in groups as well- this is part of the balance i'd hope. Something like a Bezerker has 5% more dmg than a guardian but can tank 5% worse than a guardian.. the difference there is negligible. 5% less tanking ability isnt going to kill you and with your extra 5% more dmg than the guardian the mob drops a bit faster anyway. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, even this big-hyped balance fix isnt going to be perfect, but hopfully it will help other classes fill out thier intended role better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Message Edited by Ayun on 06-30-2005 07:41 AM

Moorgard

07-01-2005, 11:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote: <DIV>The fighter archtype will no longer be a fun to play. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I disagree with you. But then, I have seen the DPS numbers, the new arts that fighters will get, and the other changes coming to combat. I think playing a fighter will be even more fun and I am probably as anxious as anyone to see this stuff in game. As many here know I play a fighter, and I wouldn't be looking forward to the combat revamp if the character I've come to care a lot about suddenly wasn't fun to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is everything going to be unicorns and rainbows for everyone? No, I'm sure there are aspects of the changes that some classes won't like. Guardians have already seen that their buffs won't be stacking like they do now. Players in general who enjoy being invulnerable to attack and taking out red-con targets without any sense of danger will be disappointed, too. There are some spell changes people will see as nerfs, others that they will see as hugely beneficial. And there will be those who disagree on which is which.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think overall most players will enjoy their new abilities, feel their subclass is more distinct, and generally like the level of challenge that the game provides. But of course, those who expect the worst can find a way to make their predictions come true, and there's really no reassurance I can give that can prevent that from happening.</DIV>

Dandeli

07-01-2005, 11:54 AM

<DIV>You should hear the tanks in my guild. "Screw damage, if I can hold aggro, and take damage, then I dont give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if I can even do 5dps...." </DIV> <DIV> Everyones got a different need. That dont sound fun to me but hey maybee tank isnt for you.</DIV> <DIV> *smooch*</DIV>Message Edited by Dandelize on 07-01-2005 12:54 AM

ThePhoni

07-01-2005, 12:25 PM

Please, oh god of SOE and EQ2... please give your humble slaves the holy grail of gaming... the DPS numbers you speak of. So that we might rejoyce in your infinite knowledge and power. Also an explaination to shed light on the reasons why and actually how the gods worked to balance the powers of mere mortals would allow all of us to become one with the greatness that is SOE. Please, i ask this in Smedly's name.. in moorgard we trust

ugl

07-01-2005, 03:08 PM

From my post on guardian forums: <DIV>*** early in the mornng**</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monktank_01 wakes up, and sleeply clicks on the Dev tracker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mooreguard posts:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Combat changes are now in effect!</DIV> <DIV>Wizards will do 300 DPS Assassins wil do 300 DPS Swashbucklers will do 270 DPS " " Monks will do 110 DPS Zerkers will do 100 DPS Guards will do 90 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Additionally,</DIV> <DIV>Monks will now tank 90% as effective as a guardian. Zerkers will now tank 95% as effective as a guardian.</DIV> <DIV> Monktank_01 YES! I am a REAL TANK BABY! Moorguard came through! YES!</DIV> <DIV> ***afternoon comes***</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monktank_01 logs in</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raidleader_01 /gu OTM to orangeubermob_01... HURRY before the competition ganks it!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monktank_01 /tells raidleader_01 Hey man, you read the patch notes? I can tank bro! Monks can tank! woo hoo!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raidleader_01 /replies yea dude, that rocks, I know you been pushing for those changes for months, grtz man</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monktank_01 /replies right on man, I am a REAL TANK! You gonna put me up to bat or what?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raidleader_01 /replies well man, ya know I want to. But orangeubermob_01 is awful mean, and we need all the edge we can get. I am going to put guardian_01 up there, we got to give it our all...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monktank_01 /replies ahh man, its ok, I understand</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monktank_01 /gu LFG man, where are my homies at ? dps group 3 invite me please!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raidleader_01 /replies ahh man, sorry man, but errr, yer dps kinda sucks now, and we need all the edge we can get. You know that new assassin recruit that apped? We gonna put him in group 3. Can ya go hang out at the docks with zerker_01, guardian_02 and shadowknight_01 till we are finished? I will see what we got for the next spawn and try to cram ya in, if some of the healers or DPS log out...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monktank_01 /replies dude... alright man</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raidleader_01 /replies man, sorry man, maybe later on tonight when peeps start logging and the rarespawn are dropped, you can lead a little raid over and kill Zalak, and tank it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monktank_01 /replies alright man! I can tank the epics now! I am a REAL TANK! woo hoo, I cannot wait to pull him tonight! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>***1 month later***</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moorguard posts:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Epic combat changes are now live!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In order to provide challenge to the min/max guilds, we are currently upgrading all epic mobs to be even more powerful.</DIV> Will 6+ tanks be useful/needed in a min/max raid if their dps is gone/lowered? <DIV>That is the question, and for the content we have right now, the answer to that question is no. </DIV> <DIV> If you can reassure us that the answer to that question is going to somehow become yes with these combat changes Moorguard, It will alleviate the worries of this tank.</DIV>Message Edited by uglak on 07-01-2005 04:19 AM

Yiago

07-01-2005, 04:57 PM

But...Moor...!!! I want my Unicorn's and Rainbows!! /cries Oh...well maybe not the Raaaiinnnbooowwsss...I hate rainbows...they crawl up the inside of your pants and bite the.....Ohhh...thoses rainbows...I like rainbows! :Grin: /votes for Moorgards Unicorn's and Rainbows! woohoo /manic depresent state change You all stink! hehe

Gigglet

07-01-2005, 06:15 PM

I guess for me the only thing that has me worried is my Shadowknight. I was told at higher levels compaired to other tanks, we are more dps. So if that's true with these new combat changes will my SK be useless? I love to play her and am glad I picked this class but now I worry if I have wasted my time. When will we see real numbers or any information? We keep hearing soon, but soon could mean weeks. In the mean time the more soon gets handed out as an answer the more worried i get. On a side note to help with testing of this major update. Will there be any sort of character copy? I would be willing to copy my SK over and help test the heck out of all this. I was in beta and loved to help out, was rewarding. I want to help make sure that SKs at the high end are tested before going live. Sadly though I don't have time to level an SK to 30+ on test. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Teche

07-01-2005, 06:21 PM

<DIV>Exactly uglak, people dont seem to understand that tanks dont stack and dps does .. In no way does allowing some of the fighter subclasses to do good DPS make Scouts useless. I and I know many others would gladly give up some of our tanking ability to be a DPS hybrid. Hell if it will stop the scout crying put us in the same tank bracket. There is no reason SOE cant make some of the fighter subclasses DPS centric since DPS stacks. /wave to the ,,l,,, star bandits <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Buckminster

07-01-2005, 07:09 PM

<blockquote><hr><snip> i just watched a templar solo Broodmother, <snip> <hr></blockquote>Really? I'd love to see that. And I'd love to see that toon's loadout on gear. Because I know that at level 41, with a full loadout of feysteel, SBS, the Moonlight Mace, and Adept spells across the board, I couldn't touch Shaydra the Wicked (level 37). Yes, I know what my heals/debuffs/nukes/HOs are capable of. I'd be surprised if Templar capability went through the roof between 41 and 50 . If the Templar in question was tricked out with raid-dropped gear and end-game heritage equipment, I would be more inclined to believe that s/he could solo non-grey named mobs consistently, but for the 'normally' geared player, I doubt that would be anything more than a fluke. Kiters took it on the chin in the transition from EQ1 to EQ2. Plate tanks reaped the benefit of the drastic shift in power to their end, and were the solo kings of the EQ2 world for a goodly while. Rebalancing is being done. Big deal. Bucky, Conjuror/Templar/Wizzy/SK on Blackburrow <div></div>

Terq

07-01-2005, 07:27 PM

<DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teche wrote: <DIV>Exactly uglak, people dont seem to understand that tanks dont stack and dps does .. In no way does allowing some of the fighter subclasses to do good DPS make Scouts useless. I and I know many others would gladly give up some of our tanking ability to be a DPS hybrid. Hell if it will stop the scout crying put us in the same tank bracket. There is no reason SOE cant make some of the fighter subclasses DPS centric since DPS stacks. /wave to the ,,l,,, star bandits <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The problem with this is many tanks chose a "tank" archetype based on the stated goal that all fighter classes would be able to tank. This was the stated vision in the archetype system that has been preached to us since pre-beta. If you change that goal now, you will most likely upset more persons that you will make happy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers, Crusaders, Warriors, in each of their various incarnations should be able to "tank." While one or the other might be more beneficial in a given situation, (group *4 content), each should still be able to tank an experience group. Further, each of these classes should bring something to the table in a raid situation as well, whether it be tanking ability or other. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heck, from my perspective, proper planning and tactics on a raid are just as important (probably more so) as raw DPS. Most of the successful guilds spend quite a bit of time planning just who goes into what group for optimal buff stacking. Even with combat revamp, I would think that each class would (should) bring something to the table that would be desireable in a raid situation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey, I am a Mystic, so they can do whatever else they want with combat revamp, since it was already stated that wards are going to have AC mitigaiton. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

Darkd

07-01-2005, 07:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ayun wrote: A tank who is whining about thier dps getting nerfed is likely a terrible tank.. of which there are PLENTY. And a terrible tank means a dead group.. plain and simple. The only thing SOE has to provide a tank is taunting ability and dmg absorption as far as i'm concerned because the rest is strategy(which SOE can't provide). <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This is about the most assinine statement I have ever read! Just because a Tank likes to do dps doesnt make them a poor tank. I agree though that proper tanking takes skill but to just say that any tank that worries about dps sucks is idiotic. Being a very good Berzerker who rarely has wipes and when they do happen it is usually someone not playing their class correctly or when I get a bug up my butt and try to solo something I shouldnt. I have never agreed with the Monk/Bruiser class being a tank but hey thats how EQ classified them, as for Zerkers I made one to be a very offensive tank. I knew going in that I would be a fine grind tank and be able to tank lower tierd epics, but knew high end raid content would be left for the Guards. During this high end raid I feel that I should still be able to do enough dps to make a true contribution to the raid and not just be along for the ride.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for your second ridiculous statement, so as long as I just sit there and get hit while keeping my mouth shout while you enjoy playing the game, then the world is fine? Why not just give all tanks one spell "Taunt", issue them their heavy gear and shield and send them out to the world. Why even bother giving us a weapon? Maybe they could find a way for me to use two sheilds at once. Better yet why dont they just turn us into taunting rocks that the healers and casters can just pick up an place where they see fit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get a clue buddy!</DIV> Message Edited by Darkdog on 07-01-2005 11:41 AM Message Edited by Darkdog on 07-01-2005 11:43 AMMessage Edited by Darkdog on 07-03-2005 02:49 PM

Kince Stouthea

07-01-2005, 07:45 PM

The fundemental problem with this whole issue is that in any given encounter you do not need more the 2 tanks at any time. Where does that leave the rest of the tanks.. now that there will probally be more of them. Ill tell you where.. sittin on their alts trying to lvl up somthing that will be allowed to raid. Why would any raid want to take along tank classes if all they have to offer is minimal dps. As a guardian yes we can buff a bit of hps and defense, but when your not in the main group what point is there to that? As tank we are going to need to be given somthing that will be a viable 2nd option that is a compellig reason to invite us to raids even when were not doing the tanking. I supose they could ramp up the mobs to the point where tanks drop like flys and you need 5 in an encounter to switch out tanks. Give the tanks something to look forward too, need to do somthing to liven up this dying breed. *on a side note* For the love of god, give some enchanters some loving.. a simple cross group clarity would be a step in the right direction. Spending 15 mins buffing 24 peole with breeze is amazingly painfull.

MorgothTheTerrib

07-01-2005, 08:43 PM

<DIV>"As tank we are going to need to be given somthing that will be a viable 2nd option that is a compellig reason to invite us to raids even when were not doing the tanking." </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just did a query on mmorpgstats and there are almost 4,000 tanks on the Nektulos server (rough estimate). What are they all supposed to do if their dps gets nerfed? A raid would need no more than 2 for anything. What happens when you have a Guardian and Berserker in a raid and the other 2 Guardians and SK have crap for dps? I'll tell you what. You take them out of the raid and replace them with classes that are actually useful. :smileyindifferent:</DIV>

Shagittari

07-01-2005, 09:27 PM

<DIV>There are already too many tanks in the game. This is beacuse they were grossly unbalanced. They are rebalancing tanks beacuse they need to. If the numbers dwindle its only logical...after all I think there are only 3 level 50 coercers on my server.</DIV>

Darkd

07-01-2005, 09:44 PM

I dont think the lopsided amount of tanks has anything to do with being overpowered. 1) Monks and Bruisers should never have been incluede in the tank class. They should have been a dps class from the start. 2) Fighter classes appeal more to peoples egos, who wants to be some fraile elf running around in tights casting spells?? Not me for one I want a big hulking mass of muscles tearing arms off of a mob and beating them with it. I think that would cover 25% of those numbers. The remaining balance are legit tanks playing the game and also name holders. I think you need to re-evaluate your assumptions.

Morrolan V

07-01-2005, 10:19 PM

Shagittarius wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> There are already too many tanks in the game. This is beacuse they were grossly unbalanced. They are rebalancing tanks beacuse they need to. If the numbers dwindle its only logical...</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So, what does that mean, Shag? I spent 6 months levelling up my Monk. He's 50th now, spent tons of plat upgrading him, raiding frequently (sometimes as off-tank, usually as DPS). The "numbers dwindling" that you are talking about means one of two things for players like me: (1) I stop playing my Monk and level up another character, or (more likely) (2) I quit the game because it's so discouraging to have a character you've lived with and developed suddenly become not useful or wanted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, Moorgard said that the rebalancing will mean that all classes get new abilities that should maintain their usefulness and enjoyabilty in the face of reductions of some of their abilities. Obviously, I hope that is true. In the meantime, like many, many others, I am nervous about what the rebalance will mean for my Monk.</DIV>Message Edited by Morrolan V on 07-01-2005 11:20 AM

Gaige

07-02-2005, 12:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkdog wrote: I dont think the lopsided amount of tanks has anything to do with being overpowered. 1) Monks and Bruisers should never have been incluede in the tank class. They should have been a dps class from the start. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think you need to reevaluate YOUR assumptions.

Chog

07-02-2005, 02:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buckminster wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> i just watched a templar solo Broodmother, <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Really? I'd love to see that. And I'd love to see that toon's loadout on gear. Because I know that at level 41, with a full loadout of feysteel, SBS, the Moonlight Mace, and Adept spells across the board, I couldn't touch Shaydra the Wicked (level 37). Yes, I know what my heals/debuffs/nukes/HOs are capable of. I'd be surprised if Templar capability went through the roof between 41 and 50 . If the Templar in question was tricked out with raid-dropped gear and end-game heritage equipment, I would be more inclined to believe that s/he could solo non-grey named mobs consistently, but for the 'normally' geared player, I doubt that would be anything more than a fluke. Kiters took it on the chin in the transition from EQ1 to EQ2. Plate tanks reaped the benefit of the drastic shift in power to their end, and were the solo kings of the EQ2 world for a goodly while. Rebalancing is being done. Big deal. Bucky, Conjuror/Templar/Wizzy/SK on Blackburrow <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>A level 50 Templars can solo Broodmother. Without Fable gear a Templar could solo with GEBs and the Manastone (Pre-nerf), the fight would take 10-20 minutes, but the fight is possible to win. I have seen the fight and was shocked to see the Templar finish the fight without many problems (there where a few moments of near death).

ReviloTX

07-02-2005, 05:27 AM

As a guardian, I am quite nervous about the combat revamp. The trouble is, they are in a catch 22 situation. If they make other tanks such as monks and bruiser tank closer to the plate tanks, with increased dps, the plate tanks are obsolete. However, if they decide these other "tanks" are really dps and make them dps orientated, then those tanks will complain they cannot tank. Afterall, they did tell them up front they were tanks, and they could tank as good as anyone. So what should they do? Well, for group type situations I really don't care how they slice it. However, as a guardian, I would be fairly upset if a monk or bruiser could tank as well as me and put out more dps. There has to be a tradeoff somewhere. The real answer lies when examining a raid makeup. I don't have the statistics available, but lets assume that at least 1/4 of the toons level 50 are fighter archytype. My guess is it would be higher. Therefore, they should shoot for making 1/4 of the desired classes for a raid fighter archytype. This means they either need to start making raid content require 6 tanks (High priest or Rathe council anyone?), or make the other tanks besides guardian/zerker good support roles with buffs or good dps. Hopefully they will do a combination of these things to make tanks in general more desirable to raids. As it is now, you don't see that many raids with more than 2 or 3 tanks if they can help it. Personally, I think they should make the lighter armor wearing tanks into dps with slight support role. Paladins and Shadowknights should be capable of tanking, but not quite as well as zerker or guardians. The tradeoff should be they have better support and slightly higher dps. Some of this is already true, but the real problem is the tanks don't compare in either dps or support to any other classes, so we are always left out if were not needed to actually tank.

Gaige

07-02-2005, 05:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ReviloTX wrote: Personally, I think they should make the lighter armor wearing tanks into dps with slight support role. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> So, because you are scared for your job, you think we should be made into scouts without medium armor, evac and pathfinding? How noble of you.

Darkd

07-02-2005, 05:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkdog wrote: I dont think the lopsided amount of tanks has anything to do with being overpowered. 1) Monks and Bruisers should never have been incluede in the tank class. They should have been a dps class from the start. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think you need to reevaluate YOUR assumptions. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Nope a spade is a spade and a Monk is a dps.

Gaige

07-02-2005, 09:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkdog wrote: Nope a spade is a spade and a Monk is a dps. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ha Ha. Yeah right.

Ahala

07-02-2005, 05:48 PM

Maybe I'm a foolish templar, but if you have taunt you can join my group. I have had monks (or any tank for that matter) tank for me on more than one occasion. Maybe people need to stop worrying and let us healers do our job. We're all more than capable. <div></div>

Eveningshadow

07-02-2005, 05:51 PM

<div></div>I think the key to fairly balancing the various tank classes at high levels is to vary the types of encounters they fight against. Its poor form to tells someone that their class is A and then change it to B so far into the game, and Im not sure if something so drastic is required. I will fully admit that I really only have the personal perspective of a plate tank, having never played a monk or bruiser, but it certainly wouldnt damage my ego or play style if there were encouncters better suited to "avoidance" tanks rather then plate tanks. Perhaps make some encounters with increadably deadly procs, where a very high avoidance would be better suited then a super high mitigation. Even then, if all you had was a plate tank you COULD try the encounter, but it would be easier with a monk/bruiser. On the same front, also have encounters with a very high hit percentage, or AOE's that cant be avoided out right. Make it balanced. I think having the flexabilty to attempt something, even if you dont have the min/max class that would make the encounter more doable, would be a nice change. You shouldnt be "locked" into needing one specific class to attempt something, even if they would make the encounter that much easier. In anycase, it stinks to have your role reassigned after you have already dedicated so much work to being something. I think the focus should be on changing the world to make the classes useful in their roles, not changing the classes to be useful in their worlds. After all, the game isnt going to quit paying their subscriptions or flood the messageboard with nasty notes. :p ~Khord Onaraha Kerra Guardian, Officer Fellowship of the Dragon Antonia Bayle <div></div>

ReviloTX

07-02-2005, 08:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: So, because you are scared for your job, you think we should be made into scouts without medium armor, evac and pathfinding? How noble of you. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Although I do serve Freeport, I try to be noble when I can. Seriously though, I don't think I'm alone when I say that I read the descriptions of the fighters before making mine and without a doubt "guardian" was the choice for a raid tank. I don't really care who can tank exp groups, let them all, but raids should at least desire a guardian as the MT. Gaige, I guess more of my concern lies with finding something for ALL of the tanks to do in a raid. As I said, 1/4 of the toons are fighters (and actually quite a bit more than that based on some /who fighter, /who mage, etc I did last night). I cannot possibly imagine a raid in this game where the raid leader would say, "oh, no we already have a warlock we need the bruiser to come". It won't happen, but it needs to happen. How are you going to say things are balanced if a raid of 24 people only want, and only need 2 fighter archytpes? The fact is, IF a raid of 24 takes more than 2 fighters, the others are nothing more than dps, and poor dps at that. That was the idea behind my argument, as poorly as I may have tried to explain it. At least if some of the fighters are good dps or have some valuable utility, they will be desired for raids. Message Edited by ReviloTX on 07-02-2005 09:33 AMMessage Edited by ReviloTX on 07-02-2005 09:34 AM

Eyes_of_Truth

07-04-2005, 11:14 AM

lol i have extensivly covered this subject. Change raid mobs to be better suited for plate or avoidance or stage the fight where one tank tanks better as a certain part of the fight...it's all here This is alot to read though but here it is: green is the specific part <DIV> My Compiled Views and Ideas for a Better and More Prosperous Everquest 2 Main point of my post here: to have a strong building you must first have a strong foundation and build upon that foundation. This post is primarily about balance (and yes it's possible) and new contient ideas for a more balanced and interactive raid without doing a Cookie cutter type class system, as well as a solution to the aquiring of spell/CA upgrades though "Training Exercise Quests" Just because a mage goes enchanter does not mean they give up their role as a damage class! Far from it, they should mealy not improve in damage as well as a sorcerer is on account they have more flexibility to perform more roles than a sorcerer, hence "utility", and it needs to be a noticable utility that has a good purpose in normal grouping and raiding. Also, damage comes in many forms, and if they added a power drain to every enchanter’s nuke, made them cost same as a sorcerer’s nuke, with 80% of the damage a sorcerer would do, then they are in effect still a damage dealing mage, only dealing damage in a different way. If an enchanter is nuking a Healing mob, that 20% less damage they do compaired to a soceror might actually return a higher benefit if it drains vital healing power from the mob, such as if the nuke drains 50 power from target, and that target could heals 400 hp from that 50 power, then in a since the enchanter has done 400 more damage from using the power drain attached to their nuke. As for summoner, using their DPS pets it needs to have spells = to 60% of the damage capacity of the sorcerer, and a nuke+DOT spell that in 30 seconds can make up the remaining 20% of the sorcerer’s damage ability (make this dot also greatly lower resist of target, allowing sorcerer to deal more damage, meaning that they will work best when together). And of course the fishies to eal the other 20% As for the problem with mage vs. Scout, a new equation needs to be written! Mage=Scout>Fighter>Priest The only reason Scouts get slightly (and lets be honest, it is very slight) more defense than a mage is that to perform their = damage they are forced into melee range of mobs. [As a side note I think it would be fun to add Touch spells that require caster to be with in melee ranged but an added benefit of doing more damage for less power using this line of spells, and these spells generate 3x the normal hate of a nuke so players would have to be carefull, but more on that later] To sum it up in simple phrase, balancing needs to be done within the archetypes! Not cross archetypes! No overlapping! And to toughs nay sayers that say "[Removed for Content] an Enchanter can’t be outdamageing my UBAH ZEKER! This is completely BS!" then you should make and enchanter and not complains so much!! Just kidding, but yes, enchanters SHOULD be outdamageing a berserker as a mage > fighter. There needs to be a simple mentality when thinking about the classes, it's all VERY symmetrical: 1/2 are meant for offense and 1/2 are meant for defense. Mage=Scout in damage because they are the damaging 1/2 of the spectrum, while fighters and priest make up the defensive 1/2. It's that simple when u get down to it. __________________________________________________ _________________________________________ Raiding Now for the topic that always seems so difficult, RAIDING "But Mr., I’m a fighter, but I'm not the main tank, so I need uber DPS or I’m worthless! Don’t take my role from me!" Nope, sorry dude, fighters aren’t ment for the offense capabilities of mage/scout, or else every thing fall out of wack. Would you feel good if a priest took your role as MT for a raid? It's the exact same concept. So now comes the big question: What do u do with these 5 other fighters who are "doing nothing now" in a raid?? Easy..........so very easy that it should have been decided long ago.....so easy that it's partially done in game now.... allow them to form a fighting unit that disperses damage smongst themselves, suggested named : Battalion, or a Phalanx if you perfer (Paladins allready have this concept partialy built in as they are currently considered best "assist" tank with offer and Acient pledge and upgrades) Ok here is my imaginary raid set up: 6 fighters, priest, mage, scouts (hey what do u know, that’s all of the classes..24 classes...max of 24 people in raid...makes u go hmmm doesn’t it?) Allow the group of 6 fighters to disperse the damage amongst them. This makes the job of healing easier, as lighter armored brawlers won’t take a full forced blow of spike damage (and not all mobs NEED spike damage to poses a thret, will talk about that later) if they don’t avoid it, let’s say this: Random_uber_epic_mob_3125 does a attack that deals 2000 damage. As part of the "penalty" for banding together and dispersing damage, the total damage incoming is +25% more, so that’s 2500 damage being divided among 6 players, which is 416 each, then that registers against mitigation and avoidance chance. If say a Brawler avoids it, that’s 2500-416 so the hit's total is only 2100 or so, if a warrior has 60% mitigation, he only takes 166 damage, cutting off even more of the total, and all together it would be more effective than a single tank tanking. "But what of valuably needed priest buffs that the tanks needs? He cant get them if 5 other Fighters are in the same group can he?" Also simple, add a right clickable option on ANY group wide buff that allows it to be spread across the entire raid, but at the cost of 5 concentration. This allows priest/mages/bards and any other buffing classes to buff raid wide, but it will only be one buff per player, so choose wisely <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> . Another solution for fighter diversity in raids and groups would be to make certain raid mobs more easily tankable by different tanks. Accurate heavy spike damage scout raid mobs would be best handled by warrior Heavy spike damage casters would be best handle by crusaders (providing they give them a self ward that absorbs a lot of spell damage) Inaccurate flurry attacks that negate targets mitigation from fighter mobs (hit up to 5 times increasing power by 50% each hit, devastating to anyone who cant dodge them) best tankable by Brawlers In fact, I have posted on a different post about how a epic fight could contain the boss using ALL 4 archetypes in his fight depending on how he's doing. If he is feeling confident since he's at full HP, the raid mob would focus on powerful and accurate physical strikes (scout). Being a scout, his current weakness is magical attacks. At 75% hp he relies physical just ins't cutting it, so he switches to devastating magical damage (mage) which would require a crusaders knowledge of spell withstanding to survive. Being a mage at this point, Scouts with high physical damage are his weakness. At 50% hp the mob notices he's in trouble and would begin healing himself (this is when an enchanter's power drain would be needed, and I think power drains SHOULD be a viable raid tactic) Mob would somehow become invulnerable and cause raid wide damage while healing it'self. Once the invulnerability has been broken, Scout has the damage advantage. At this stage the devs need to throw in something fun and new, like say a stationary weapon that must be reached quickly to shoot the raid mob who has now flow up into the sky to heal himself and cause raid wide smiting holy damage, to get to this weapon, someone would have to clime a wall covered with tiny spiders that try to knock u off, make it so that the climber needs protection by ranged assiastance to pick off the spiders so the climber can get to the weapon before the mob heals up to 74% (no going back to different modes for mob) Perhaps make scouts faster climbers, allowing them to get to the weapon the fastest and prevent the mob from regenerating to much hp. The mob would loose 10% hp from the weapon, and would resume fighting on group for 2 minutes after being shot down before he flies up and needs to be shot down again. The weapon can’t drop the mob below 25%. At 25% the mob is despite and frantic to survive! So he becomes a fighter, focusing primarily on defense, and his once accurate single attacks are now frantic flurries that negate armor (aka u need a brawler at this point to calmly avoid the raged blows) Also, at this point the mob would do devastating personal AOE attacks that would crush scouts, so they must fall back and rely on ranged damage. Mages have the uperhand once again with magical attacks since the mob is focusing on his physical defense. offense switchs from one opposit to the other, giving mages/scouts each = opportunities to succeed.> ---JOKE TIME--- (hey, if you've made it this far you need a treat!) <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> This flip flop of attacks is kind of like spraying a naked person with ice cold water...go for face.... they block their face....then hit'em low hahah..rense, repate <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> This multi stage of fighting makes it feel more dynamic and realistic (though I know this wouldn’t work with all mobs, such as mobs that are considered casters only, but on dragons and the like this would be very realistic, as we all know fighting styles can changes as battles progress and desperation takes hold) I want more interactive raid like this that require strategy beyond simple button mashing, knowing when and what to do at crucial moments is important Took look further at some problems some might find with my design: Q: "Nice and all, but how would you switch agro between tanks without loosening one or having the raid wipe?" A: Have each 25% stage render mob invulnerable, and wipe all previous agro, then the first one to re-engage the mob will be first on agro list (this would require cooperation form raid to hold their buttons!!) Q: Well if we can power drain raid mobs, by the time they are 50% they wont have power to heal themselves, wont that make it trivial? A: At each 25% mark, the mob regains all power, and there power shouldn’t be endless like Nagy and Vox of eq1, if we have limits (like the recent changes to certain items that need not be mentioned) to ensure power is not a endless resource, so should mobs be subjugated to this rule. To sum it all up: A) Make mobs have same benefits/restrictions of players B) Diversify mobs and tanking types C) Balance within the Archetype (and DPS isn’t the end-all of balancing either, giving one sub-class offensive buffs and other defensive or enemy detrimental buffs that lower incoming damage is better than giving one more raw defense or offense) D) Allow tanks to combine their defensive purpose and disperse high damage attacks E) Make staged raid fights that require different tactics at different times F) Make raids more interactive than your normal "button masher" G) Allow quests with adequate reuse timers that grant app3/adept1/adept4/master2 quality of skill upgrades, high quality tougher fight (adep4 require x2 raid and master 2 a HARD x4 raid, that require a ton of thinking and puzzle solving to complete) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE reply to my ideas..They get skimmed over so many times it seems and it makes me feel like all this work goes down the drain and it's soo depressing.... spent a total of atleast 4 hours compiling this post together, please don't let my hard work be in vain! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" width=16 border=0> PS: I evan tokk teh time too speel kheck theis! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif" width=16 border=0> (I even took the time to spellcheck this! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> ) Here is my second part of my ginormus post: im just going to cut and past it strait from my other replies : ( BE WARNED! i have yet to spell check this section /dramatic music flares!! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> ) **Alternitive to Purchasiing Upgrades** If you dont want to fork over the doe to raise your characters abilities though knowledge gained from scrolls and such provided by characters, go though our riggorious new training program! (sounds lieka promotional hu? <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> ) Well now to get down to details folks, 2 words: Training Quests (no, not the silly books that are in game currently, something new, interactive, and an alternative to handing over $) Training Quests' purpose is to allow players that are skilled at their class's role to put their skills to test in hopes of improving their skills! They range from solo (app3 reward), difficult group fights (adp1), 2 group raid (adept 4) full blown 4x group raids (master2) "BUT WAIT!" says Random_onlooker_02946," you mean a normal person like me for no charge can get a master 2 ability?! WOW!" Devs reply " well you CAN get it, but we arnt handing it to you, you and your raid of 24 must undergo extreeem challanges that will not only test your combat prowess, but your raid's cooperation, orgionization, and ability to solve difficult puzzles on the fly!" Random_onlooker_02946 sobs gently " But i dont wana solve puzzles! gah! me want make big thing dead!!" Dev says "Well, it is optional, you can allways be lazy and use our wonderful SE!" Random_onlooker_02946 " But..but.. im a insert random Scholar> ! We need people to need us! They cant get FREE skills!" Dev gets a puzzled look and thinks to himself (wasnt this same guy that wanted abilties?? oh well, tis the life ) "Now you see, we will palce timers on these Training Missions. They are not short little mini fights either. These super raids will be 3 hours + on average, 3 hours of complete action/puzzles solving to test your metal to see if your raid is ready for the oh so coveneted master 2 abilties. They will be avalible to all tiers (with the exception of tier 1)" The timers are as followed and subject to change: app3(solo)- Succes= 30 min lock out, Fail = 5 min lock out adept1(difficult group fight)-Success= 12 hour lock out , Fail= 30 min lock out adept4(nearly impossible for a single group, ment to be hard for a x2 group raid)-Succes=4 day lock out,Fail = 1 day lock out Master2(full blow x4 raid, hardest of all,very much involved with find out how to complete it as part of challenge)Succes=2week lockout, Fail = 3day wait ALL SCALE WITH LEVEL , no raiding greenies! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> Regardless, this solves multitutes of problems (and probly causes some of it's own that i cant foresee) but here are a list of proples it will solve or help reduce: Reduce overall price of adept3/master skills so that people of the tier of the spel can afford it. (aka no 25g for a tier 2 adept3!) How does it do this? Simple: if someone is charging out the wazzu before because that was the ONLY option for advancment of skills, they will have to drop their price down to more reasionable levels to compete with people saying "heck with paying 1p for my level 15 master! ill get my guild together and practice and train hard and achieve a master 2 insted!" A quest solution to people who just started game and want to become stronger but dont physicaly have the currency to do so! Along with these changes, i think adept3 rare items at lower tiers need to be far more common so that there will be a healthy ammount of adept3's (higher suply to fit the demand their for more reasionable pricing) since the tier 1-3 since these levels go by much faster than the others. Possible problems with possible solutions: App4's becoming "worthless"- this is something i dont see happening, not any more than it allready is. I would think of them as step stools, I would think the adept1 trainning would be of adiquit difficulty so that someone using only app1 would almsot allways fail, thus making app4 usfull tool to growing even stronger (and the jump between each NEEDS to be noticable), but in this same token, app3 need to be strong enough to achieve adept1, but needs to be a lot easier to achieve adpet1 using app4. Other than that i realy cant see any more problems if handled delicatly Here is an example of a raid for adept4- You and your 2 group raid party have been charged with assulting fortess made by distructive Elementals that is protected with an powerfull barrier. These elementals are also protected by this shield. This fortress is in a pocket deminsion and to get there your raid must use a orb. this orb will be outside the fortress and is your zone in point. With out this vital anchoring point your raid will be wisped out of the demension! So now u have a stationary postion you must defend. How ever shall they defeat this barrier?? but wait! A scout has found a secrit entrance to a lower area that leads to the 6 elemental powercores that feed the barrior and shields on the elementals. Thus the fight beggins! elementals pour from the fortress and everyone begins to fight, but oh no! nothing not even powerfull spells will harm the foes! The fighters notus their taunts still work, and healers can allways heal, so they decide to use their defense and stave off the attack till the offensive party can go down and shut down their shields. So the second party desends(zones) into the darkness of the catacombes below the fortress! After going though a small maze, their way is barred by a door that asks riddles, for each incorrect answer, the person is sent back to begginging of maze, once door's questions are all ansered correctly, the second part is wisped into the next room, where they must use their stealth to avoid foes (app3 or 4 invis/sneak required at this point, so scholars dont friet) while moving objects to navigate the mini dungion. Finaly they get to the shield's cores! To destroy them, different classes must used the opposing element of the orb to destroy it. Fire vs Ice/water,Magic vs mental, Disease and poison vs Divine, once destroyed, they are teleported back to the Anchoring point, where they can rejoin their first group (who by now is stuggling under the wieght of the elementals attack) and unleash some damage on the now vulnerable elementals. After raid fights to the fortress door, they must coordinate 6 people to attack 6 weakened studs at same time (with in a 2 second margine of error) to destroy the mighty door. Once though door, they fight 6 elemental minibosses (each requiring a different tactic, usualy somehting envolving the enviornment in the area) then confront the Prismatic Elemental of Discord that will be very challengign encounter that will change as the fight progresses. Boss will start by using Scout-like skills, having no regard for it's defense, but rather focusing it's attacks to be deadly accurate and highly damageing in one burst(Warrior tanks are msot effective here). At 75% it will switch to caster mode, realizing that it's physical damage isnt quite as effect, and start raining down heaving single nukes stuns and AOE rains of hell the works, and this is where a Crusader will shine as the Magical Damage Tank. At 50% it will become weary, going slightly more defesnive and beging to become like a priest and begin to heal it'self, durring this crucial mid point, it will fly up in the air and begin healing it'self, and smiting from above( it is invulnerable while flying) someone in raid has to clime a wall murial to get to the second balcony where a magical cannon (or stationary cross bow...still deciding which is cooler!) but on the murial are tiny double down spiders that will try to knock the slimer down, the ranged attackers in the raid must dispatch the spiders as the climer cant attack (one hit will knock spiders off wall, aka instant killingthem) Once the weapon is fired at mob, it will drop back 10% hp and become targetable again. If mob is not droped to 25% in 1 min, it will fly again and must be shot down again (cross bow wont drop it below the 25% marker) Allow scouts to clime faster than any other player or make the weapon scout useable only as to give them an important role in the fight! Finally at 25% it will become desprit and raged, it will focus primarily on defense now as it is near death! But it will go into raging combat attacks that hit the tank 10 times, each hit 20% stronger than last! But these raged attacks will be inaccurate, and if one misses, then the followthoughs also miss , and this is how the brawler gets the advantage of the mob. Calmness vs Rage, there is no contest! It will perform personal body AOE attacks, so the fragil scout classes might want to back up and focus on ranged attacks. When defeated the raid party will be illuminated, and thespell chosen at the begining of the event will become adept4! I will continue to update this as i get more innovative ideas in the future, but for now, good by and may God or whom ever your follow, bless <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> PS: I tried to make this as easy to read as possible, if you also have any suggestions, additions, or revisons to my post (or font, color of font, or layout of post that would make it easier to read) please REPLY!! Need others oppinons to makes this truely good!!</DIV> (btw im only 16, but please dont steriotype me with my age group. Some are good , but we get a bad rep. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gona continue insert my newly thought up infor from other posts/replys at the end of this to save others the hassle of reading though them all in the future. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I also play both classes and i find that both can tank...if u got a healer spaming heals and using up their power...till you get one hit killed, which will eventualy happen on either class. Granted my ranger is only 24(and i know im no "expert" ranger at that level), he still takes a ton of damage when he gets aggro using crafted suit of medium armor, enough to justify damage compairible to a mage. And regardlessof defense, scouts bring little more than damage to the table (with the exception of escape, disarmtrap, and Heroic opp flipping, and bard's songs and swash's mezz) but thoughs are situationaly helpful, except the songs and mezz, which are both wonderful skills... except the mages have better versions of them, aka if u need crowd control, an enchanter is allways thought of before a swash. Long story short, if 1/2 a battle requires magical damage, and the other 1/2 requires physical strikes, they should be within a compairable margine for it to work. Scout and Mage are the damaging 1/2 of all of the classes, fighter and priests make up the defensive. (and about your post that said "As a scout I can tank things fairly well", please list all of your taunts defensive buffs protection skills, damage reducing for defensive bonus ect, you will find no scout can taunt unless youra rogue, the only defensive buff is a minor + parry -attackspeed, now add all that up, and compair it to how many attacks you have) Anyways, their should be a time and a place for everyone. Some times Mages should be outdamageing scouts since mob has a butt load of armor on, and the inverse is true, when fighting another caster mob with high magical resistances, the scout's deadly attack shold rip right though the mobs little dress <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> Just saying that "mages>scout ALLWAYS AND INDEFINATLY" would just not cut it guys. A Deadly assassan or accurate ranger can be ust as deadly as a wizard in some areas. Headshot anyone? Juggular slice ?<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif" width=16 border=0> Unless they give scouts somethign only they can do and make it a crusial point in fighting, there is no reasion for them to do less in their primary roll (damage) just to satisfy some mage (i have played every class to 23 atleast in Qeynos with exception of the warriors, shamans, and rogues) And TBH you should read the whole think insted of making a prejudice deision on the first few lines (and yes, that is prejudice as you based my whole post and opionon on one line, which i go into more deatail if you would have only taken the time to read) Sorry you didn't agree with one minor line of my 8 page post... BUT don't let that stop all you other people with also helpfull sugestions or other revisons such as these 2 people have stated! As allways, PLEASE REPLY <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry Blood ^_^ <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted that this would be a very challenging x2 raid, master 2 raid would be even more detailed. Making the raid take a long time and with increased difficult justifies getting a spell better than any created! And if your raid can handle a x4, then your rewarded with best skills in game! But you KNOW thats gota be a tuffy or everyone and their grandma will have all their spells master2 (well..one every 2 weeks)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanks for replying but I'm still cooking up some realy hard stuff for a x4 muahaha! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep them replys a comming!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><still waiting for a Dev to read it...even though it tis FORBIDDEN to ask lol!></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> Thanks for agreeing with my "all classess should not be balanced across archetypes but within archetypes" statement! Though, let me rephrase my statement, scouts should still = mage in dps in groups. When soloing the mage should and more than likely will have higher dps than a solo scout for 2 reasions A) Much less risk for scout vs risk for some mages (enchanter and soceror is risky solo because it's based upon roots and stuns and carefull timing, but conjuror should be safer, but slightly slower sense they will have to watch aggro from pet and they wont get to use their damage pet, also imo the current aggro is too low for my adept3 soldier <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" width=16 border=0>.... B) The majority of scout's damageing attacks are positional, stealth, or long and easily interuptible casting (bard nukes), compaired to soceror/enchanter using any of their spells (except dots that run a high chance of braking root) A solution to problem B would be to add a new skill line for scouts ! My whole ideal for making scouts a viable solo class can be summed up in one awe-inspiring word!!!! Distractions! (or Slips/Flashes) Yup, Distraction skill line. Imagine if your a solo rogue taking on a single solo mob. While fighting, the mob will focus on you and only you, so u cant get to that oh so sweet kink in his back's armor.... but wait! You cause a distraction, confusing the mob, making it turn the opposit direction for a brief time, allowing u to score a strong hit! Such a dirty trick for your cunning scout is it not? As far as mechanics, this would be simple, make this skill "summon" a wisp modle on the opposit side of the mob your fihgitng (or possibly always on mobs back) that taunts the mob for highest able taunting value, and this wisp has 1 hp, and when killed, stuns mob for 5 seconds. This skill would have a 30s or 1 min reuse (depending on how the devs see fit) costing a low amount of power. Another type of skill that could be implemented fairly easily is a Bomb or Flash technic that stuns mob momentarily (simular to a upgrade to Cheepshot) that automaticaly possitions the scout behind the mob for a attack! Both of these should not be to incredibly hard to implement, and would greatly increase scouts solo abilty with out making it trivial. Make this not work on heroics and epics so the 5 second stun isnt abused, or maby heroics but certainly not epics. As allways PLEASE REPLY with any suggestions revisons blah blah blah you know the drill <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 07-04-2005 12:18 AM

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07-06-2005, 03:20 PM

Hehe, already read it the first time, still like it. I don't understand why devs didn(t tought of that before. Différent damages types and mitigation types is the whole key of balancing..... Because for now it's only Fire/Cold immunity and sometims piercing immunity. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>