Why NOT play Test?

[EtoilePirate]

<DIV>I hate myself in advance for tossing myself bodily into the fray, but the question's been spinning in my head every time I read this board, and see all the people who inexplicably think my server is a waste of their time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play Test exclusively, and I think it's a much more rewarding experience than the Live servers.  Frankly, I'm stunned by its low population!  Imagine playing on a server where people more or less watch out for each other, where guilds can cooperate (and compete, yes), and where the resources you need are always available.  Sounds good, yeah?  Add to it that when you're the first person to do something, you're the first person EVER to do something.  It feels amazing knowing no-one before you has ever seen this zone, examined this item, received this quest, or killed this mob.  It gives you a sense of accomplishment knowing you didn't use spoilers because there aren't any, and no-one has forged this path before you.  (Or in my case, to be honest, stealthed this path.)  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then on top of all that, there's working closely with SOE and knowing that what you do, say, and describe makes a speecific, tangible change on the game and on the experience for thousands of others!  We've been doing wave after wave of Splitpaw playtests, and it's fascinating to see the bugs, to make comments about loot tables and experience and see it all adjusted six hours later, and to watch things change and improve before our very eyes based on our discussions with QA and Devs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How can so many people think that's an experience not worth having?  Test is... exhilarating.  Unpredictable.  And a little weird.  And yeah, you never know when one day something's going to stop working unexpectedly, or when the griffon will want to play hummingbird, or when a solo mob will suddenly one-shot you, but the act of encountering and <STRONG>being part of the process to repair</STRONG> bugs and problems is grand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why don't more people want to make a difference?  Low population will only get fixed one player at a time.  If everyone stays away because they think they can't get a group, how will there ever be groups?  (Which, for that matter, there are, and pretty often.  I haven't played more than a half hour solo in about two weeks, with all this SP testing.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my two cents.  But I think maybe if people ever gave Test a chance they'd be happier players and would enjoy their experiences more.</DIV>

[Nakato]

<P>Short and sweet answer:</P> <P>Fear of seeing months of game time completely whiped away by a test server reset. </P> <P>Working 48-65 hours a week I don't have a ton of time to recomit if/when the test server gets whiped. Honestly I am a little shocked it didnt happen after heritage items selling for plat. XP boost to grind doesn't matter if sooner or later all the levels gets whiped at a point beyond my control.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sincerely,</P> <P>Da Naka</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nakatoki wrote:<BR> <P>Short and sweet answer:</P> <P>Fear of seeing months of game time completely whiped away by a test server reset. </P> <P>Working 48-65 hours a week I don't have a ton of time to recomit if/when the test server gets whiped. Honestly I am a little shocked it didnt happen after heritage items selling for plat. XP boost to grind doesn't matter if sooner or later all the levels gets whiped at a point beyond my control.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Right, okay.  I knew someone was going to say that.  And that's fine, it's a legitimate fear and concern.  Test is risky, there's no denying it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But choosing not to play on Test because you're afraid of losing it all is different from the thing I was kind of thinking of, which is instead the vein in which many, many, MANY recent posts on this board have been written.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, sorry.  My post was more addressed at the population who seems to think that my playing on Test somehow wastes their time and resources.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(And yeah, I hope they never have to wipe, too.  I've been saving up an awful lot of furniture and coin.  But I'm mostly just going to hope that things stay in control enough that it'll never get to that. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV>

[Nibbl]

<P>SOE has stated they wont reset test.</P> <P> </P>

[observer]

<DIV>Why shoulde we be on test?  Did you know that Live and Test server /bug reports are both mixed together?  Don't take my word for it though, read this link & quote and judge for yourself.  **note: read the post by Nate to understand how they "test".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.eq2test.com/viewtopic.php?t=748" target=_blank>http://www.eq2test.com/viewtopic.php?t=748</A></DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <SPAN class=postbody>Ok this one is important. <BR><BR>Bug reports go to the same database on all servers. That means, our bug reports get jumbled into the live ones. <BR><BR>One of the folks from SoE said to help them by putting the word TEST first in the subject line. <BR><BR>Questions? <BR><BR>~Eva</SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[RedFeather]

Well that topic you linked, just pointed out how important /bug reports are from us testers. Many things I've /bug'd and /feedback'd have oddly enough been changed or implemented shortly there after on TEST. But rarely has that been the case with my main on Neriak! BTW, Palladius rocks. Told me something yesterday that made me very happy! /crosses fingers and waits. <span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div>

[Panad]

The two main reasons I don't play on Test: a) possible wipes - losing months of work would suck b) got my main on Permafrost, don't feel like playing him and my main alts less to play Test alts <div></div>

[Edowen]

I agree completely with EtoilePB. I was playing on Mistmoore until the middle of May.  Then I decided to play Test again and I have never gone back to Mistmoore... well I did say hello to my guild there one night. <ul> <li>Test has an awesome community of players.  Mature and friendly, almost everyone on the server will help you out if you need it.  Folks who are childish or boorish tend not to fit in and give up on playing there.  </li> <li>Trying new content for the first time has got to be one of the most exhilerating and challenging and FUN things you can do in a game like EQ2.  There are no spoilers to fall back on.  Imagine going into a zone that no other player has entered before.  You and your groupmates must figure things out.  There is nothing to compare with doing that.  You really are a group, working together.  On Live, I imagine that high-end guilds mostly are in the vanguard.  On Test, anyone can be. </li> <li>Working closely with QA and the Devs can be rewarding (knowing your idea made it into the game or that you found a subtle bug) and very interesting.  They are far more open and accessible than I ever expected.  So, if you are interested in how games are developed or designed, playing on Test can be really fine.</li> </ul> Personally, I am not worried about a server wipe.  I do not expect SoE to do that, but even if they did, I play for the fun along the way.  If the game is any good, you can have fun with any level toon, not just a maxed one.  I am enjoying leveling a warden on Test even though I have a 44 monk on Mistmoore.  She might be close to 50 now if I had continued playing her, but I don't care.  It would be very nice if I could move my monk to Test, but OTOH I don't want to hurt my friends on Mistmoore by depriving my guild there of my monk's status points.   While I do miss my Mistmoore friends (and probably will stop by from time to time), I have new Test server friends. There is no risk at all in giving Test a try.  Just make a toon there.  It does not count against your Live server slots.  If you enjoy Test, you can decide whether you want to make it your home.  Why not give it a shot?  I am glad I did. Edowen <div></div>

[hellfire]

<DIV>they can copy my charecter  right to test server if they wanted my input. preety easly to i might add .but they would rather  me test stuff from  mistmoore so there i will be.</DIV>

[Kizee]

We test enough stuff from the live servers... :p

[Croa]

In addition to what others have already said: "It gives you a sense of accomplishment knowing you didn't use spoilers because there aren't any, and no-one has forged this path before you." That's another downside to some people.. not being able to look for guides when needed. Also since it's a test server, the quest you're doing may or may not even be able to be completed. Nothing is worse than spending hours.. days.. or more on a quest that can't be completed and not knowing that. On live servers I would expect it less likely than on test though definately still a problem at times.  And at least on live servers you can usually check online for quest info to see if anyone else has finished it. <div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Croake wrote:<BR>That's another downside to some people.. not being able to look for guides when needed. Also since it's a test server, the quest you're doing may or may not even be able to be completed. Nothing is worse than spending hours.. days.. or more on a quest that can't be completed and not knowing that. On live servers I would expect it less likely than on test though definately still a problem at times.  And at least on live servers you can usually check online for quest info to see if anyone else has finished it.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'll grant you, there can be a certain level of frustration there, hehe.  My boyfriend, a couple of guildies and I were the first group ever to get to Kugup, and only then did we discover that we and the group which followed shortly after had managed to prevent each other from finishing the quest, because the zone wasn't instanced and should have been, heh.  The whole server had to line up and take turns for a day while it was being fixed, and that got messy.  And then I was the first to trigger another big fat bug, where because I didn't have the pondstone equipped, it vanished from my inventory before I could do the unlock.  And yeah, that kind of thing does suck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But for me, the suckitude of those things is diminished in comparison to the good parts.  Because five of us triggered that bug, we were able to (I think?) get it fixed before it went live.  The zone was taken care of, and people everywhere play their frogs now.  It's the same thing with the (intense and intensive) Splitpaw testing we've been doing.  There are several quest zones in there, and a whole bunch of them had problems preventing them from being completed at first.  So we went back... and we went back again... and we tried it again, and they fixed problems.  And it's great to hand feedback to QA and Devs in person, and actually see the changes go through -- at the risk of spoilers, most of us thought it would be a really, really good thing to get a gnoll merchant and/or mender down in a certain zone, and the next day poof! there he was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, part of the Test environment is that you also have the benefit of knowing that a whole lot of things aren't your fault, hehe, and the quest really isn't all in yet. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But that's another personal playing preference.  And for what it's worth, the older quests are all fine, and ogaming's lists work just as well for quests on Test as they do for quests on any other server.  But being the first person ever to open the Ark of Harclave?  Well, that's an experience I wouldn't trade for all the quest spoilers in the world. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  [And everyone not on Test will know all about that in a couple of days, hehe.]</DIV>

[Gravewolf]

I guess people don't like reading FAQ's... From the <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=17" target=_blank>Playing on the Test Server FAQ</a>: <div><strong><font color="#ffff99"></font></strong></div> <span></span><strong><font color="#ffff99">Do you plan to wipe periodically wipe existing Test characters?</font></strong> <div>No, we don't. We know that our testers care about their characters and want to see them advance. Playing on Test does not mean your characters are temporary. If a change we introduce on the Test server causes something extremely bad to happen, we will restore characters to an earlier save point rather than delete them.</div> <div></div>

[Techneman]

<DIV>I dont like the new feature that increases exp gain.  When i hit 50, i felt like i was immortal, i doubt the effect would be the same when you are cruising along at 2% a kill.  I dont read guides when it comes to raid mobs, or new content. Just because they are out there, doesn't mean you have to read them.  Also, when you get a WW discovery on live, you know that you have done something special considering the other servers are all rushing to get there too.  On live, sure it is the real "first" but you are only competing against other test people, which as you said is a limited population. As for being up close with SoE and having them help you?  Frankly i want to be as far from SoE as i can be.  I prefer not to get spoon fed content.  There are enough dissapointing bugs on live servers to keep me occupied, (cough... the froglok disaster?!?!)  But then again, i dont play on test so my view may be completely wrong.</DIV> <DIV>Technemanos 50 wizard of Befallen</DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Techneman wrote:<BR> <DIV>IAs for being up close with SoE and having them help you?  Frankly i want to be as far from SoE as i can be.  I prefer not to get spoon fed content.  <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It's backwards, hehe -- we help them, with the exception of being assisted on specific playtests of new zones (they observe, and if the whole group wipes due to a bug they can rez us, or port us back in because of timers preventing us doing further testing).  And on these playtests they don't spoon feed us.  It's more of a, "Hey, look at that!  You all died!  Hahaha!  Want to try again?  We still need 75% of the zone tested.  Good luck!" </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Had a bit of a gometry problem yesterday, hehe.  Mobs inside rocks = dead groups.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also the 50% bonus is up to the player.  There's a /toggle_bonus_exp command, so you can work on low level stuff if you want (my 11 crusader has it turned off) or take the little push through the higher levels.  I shamelessly admit that I love the bonus, because there are a lot of level 48, 49, and 50 players in my guild and I don't want to be left behind anymore, heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Accomplishments feel different on Test.  We aren't part of the world, really.  It's a different world.  Maybe what's special for you -- going through the same content everyone else does, and hoping you find the needle in the haystack -- is just different from what's special for me, which is... well, it's like being an explorer, instead of a colonist.  And I guess not everyone prefers being an explorer, or a frontiersman.  But I did think the percentage who would enjoy it would be slightly higher than it is in a group of people that are already predisposed toward adventure.</DIV>

[RedFeather]

<div></div>Well said Etoile, as it was my overwhelming sense of curiousity, my compulsion to explore, which eventually drew me to play on the test server. <span>:robotvery-happy: <img src="http://img112.echo.cx/img112/3204/eq20000635gs.jpg"> </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by RedFeather1975 on <span class=date_text>06-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:48 PM</span>

[Techneman]

<P>wow, ive had my corpse legitamately bugged a few times and SoE wouldn't help me... i think i would die of shock if they offered to rez me, or even respond!  not that im bitter or anything</P> <P>Tech</P>

[alykat4]

<span>ssssshhhh...i personally love that i am not subjected nightly to the juvenile antics that happen on all the live servers. the never ending  bashing of other players and competing guilds in /ooc and /shout, farmers monopolizing mobs and resources, the players bent on ruining your play experience in any way they feel they can...the list goes on and on. i started playing on test for 2 reasons mainly...1) so i could see how my main character was going to be effected by upcoming combat changes and be prepared for them and 2) to get away from all the drama on the live servers. Whether or not they ever wipe the server hasn't even really crossed my mind...i'm enjoying the peaceful, fun game play now, while helping make things better for my characters on live servers. i dread a larger population and the "pollution" they will inevitably bring with em. hoping to be wrong, </span><div></div>

[salerene]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gravewolf wrote:<BR>I guess people don't like reading FAQ's...<BR><BR>From the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=17" target=_blank>Playing on the Test Server FAQ</A>:<BR><BR> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff99></FONT></STRONG></DIV><SPAN></SPAN><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff99>Do you plan to wipe periodically wipe existing Test characters?</FONT></STRONG> <DIV>No, we don't. We know that our testers care about their characters and want to see them advance. Playing on Test does not mean your characters are temporary. If a change we introduce on the Test server causes something extremely bad to happen, we will restore characters to an earlier save point rather than delete them.</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you beleive this then I have some swamp land forsell. SOE has said alot of things that were changed later.

[BostonSail]

<P>I'd love to play a COPY of my character on test a few days a month to bugtest and check out fixes to problems I'm encountering in my homeworld.</P> <P>I don't want to move there because we put down roots on the server we begin on - guild, friends, GMT time zone boot schedule.  Starting a new character there to test things a few days per month will continue to ensure that EQ2 provides an excellent levels 1-20 experience (it does) and will do nothing for the bugs that are so hard to work around later on.</P> <P>I think the frustration also comes, for non-Test players, when there are very bad encounter problems that are listed in notes as being fixed and which aren't even remotely fixed after enduring a no-play patch day.     It makes me feel taht either people are playing nicely there and not actually performing tests or the test server has so much new stuff on it you simply don't see the problems we do on live servers to begin with.</P> <P>An example from recent patch, though I do have dozens of examples to choose from this is the one that got us growling last night - A patch caused people to start being locked in combat.  Stuff happens, we knew it would get fixed.  Another patch came out to fix it.  It didn't, the locking became more frequent and some of us who never hd the lock problem prior now had the locking problem.  Another patch came out to alter how /y works so we can unlock ourselves from combat when the aggressor is unknown -<EM> it has never worked for any of us in any situation</EM>.  Did the fix ever work on test?    Do you actually see the locked in combat problem on test?  Here's what has happened to me and my guild for over a month now - at the end of every other battle we are locked in combat mode and can't break it except by pulling another mob and at the end of that next battle someone else in group will have the lock bug.  When locked in battle, the victim doesn't have proper power and health regen, can't track, can't do the out - of - battle things that they would like to do.  It happens rather frequently in particular in Nek Castle.  With a long timer on re-entry there, we just play through with the bug because we don't want to do anything to risk being locked out.  Are you seeing that on Test?  It's fairly serious and ongoing for over a month so we're just sort of wondering if anyone is actually working on it.</P> <P>Perhaps test isn't broken as the main servers are?  If you aren't seeing the issues, you can't test the fixes - perhaps test needs to be respawned from a copy of a live server every month and allow us all to make characters using the /testbuff command as on eq1 to actually get in there and test instead of just playing.</P> <P>Finally, I know folks on Test who have told me that they also hated the new fonts and found them to be inconsistent, size shifting all the time, fuzzy and hard to read, and no way to revert back to a proper pre-"improved" state that we could actually play with without getting headaches.  If SOE put things out on test and then ignores the views of people on test that's yet another problem and frankly I'd find that one more reason not to play on test as a permanent player.  It was a cosmetic tweak and causes problems for many where there werre no problems before.  I had never seen any complaint about the font that the game rolled out with.  This "fix" to no problem has made the game unplayable for me.  I'm sure they respect your input on bug finds for new content rollout but opinions on things more subjective such as art and font change should also be heard by them if they truly respect the opinions of testers.</P><p>Message Edited by BostonSailor on <span class=date_text>06-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:50 AM</span>

[Edowen]

<P>All those problems BostonSailor mentioned were found and report on test.  In fact, they were reported many times, and discussed quite a bit with QA.  The locked in combat bug is quite familiar to the people on Test.  The problems with the font change were also quite well known.  QA even asked us directly to comment on it.  We play in Nek Castle and run into all the problems that it has.  The same goes for just about every other zone.</P> <P>Just because a bug makes it onto live does not mean that it was not found on Test.  Quite the contrary - many times bugs are reported, but still do make it onto Live.  Sometimes we get a patch with a fix before the fix goes live, sometimes not.  If the fix is not tried on Test, and it does not work, that will be discovered on Live.  There is nothing that anyone on Test can do about it.</P> <P>People who play on test get kind of exasperated when we find a bug and it ends up on Live.  We get even more exasperated when we see how many people believe that we are not finding the bugs.  Of course, matters are made worse by the fact that a good number of the bugs that we do find are fixed before they make it to the Live servers.  We could be batting .999 and all that Live would see is the .001; and from seeing only the bugs that did slip through without knowing about the great many others that were caught, conclude that we were screwing up.</P> <P>One thing about testing that nobody is talking about is that bugs don't just show up in new content.  They can pop up anywhere.  Change one piece of software and something else can break.  My first week on Test I found that I could not progress my healer to become a druid.  Turns out several of the other class quests had been broken somehow.  This bug would never have been found if testing were done by copying over mid- or high-level characters.  By living on Test, players end up testing <EM><STRONG>everything</STRONG></EM>, not just new content and features.  That's important, and perhaps at least part of the reason why SoE does not copy toons to Test.</P> <P>Edowen</P> <p>Message Edited by Edowen on <span class=date_text>06-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:18 PM</span>

[BostonSail]

<DIV>Answered well, Edowen.  I completely sympathize with the players on Test.  You're essential to them, they seem to have very little other testing going on, and yet they regularly announce things are "fixed" which are not.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Evidently they just don't care about making their patches better than the haphazard things they are.  There has not been, since rollout, one complete patch message which was accurate.  June 24 had 3 items, I don't know about item 1 Nagafen as I haven't met Naggy yet in EQ2 but the other 2 shouldn't have been in the patch message as far as we can see.  Rog is out of game on Runnyeye at least and tradeskilling is not yet fixed.   That's just one example, I'm sure I needn't give more - we've all lived it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fire&ice]

<P>My Husband and I started playing EQ2 when it first was released on Everfrost server. He has a 47 warden and I have a 45 Mystic on that server. However a month and half ago we decided to try Test out. Since then we have maybe gone back to Everfrost to say hi to a few friends but otherwise have spent all our play time on our Test toons as we are having more fun being part of the process to fix the problems that are out there or that happen with new patches. As Edowen said alot of stuff gets /bugged and /feedback but not all of it however gets fixed, for one reason or another, before it hits live :smileysurprised: Not much we can do about that. If you really want to play on Test start a toon there and lvl up it won't take that long and is fun to find the bugs like the one that Edowen mentioned with the class/subclass progression being broken for many of us. I spent some time making an alt due to that problem :smileytongue: We do miss our high  level toons on Everfrost but we don't want to go back having spent enough time to make friends and become part of test.</P> <P>Everyone should enjoy their playtime! Do what makes you happy :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>BostonSailor wrote:(from an earlier post) It makes me feel taht either people are playing nicely there and not actually performing tests or the test server has so much new stuff on it you simply don't see the problems we do on live servers to begin with. (From the most recent post) <div> Evidently they <i>(SOE)</i> just don't care about making their patches better than the haphazard things they are. </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>You seem to just want to waggle a finger at someone for your discomfort, yet lack any real first hand knowledge of how things get done or why.  Posting a bunch of assumptions because you are emotionally charged doesn't help.  In fact it shows some of the qualities that a test process doesn't need.  Which is one reason I hope they don't give people copies. Cheers, Fekkin. </span><div></div>

[Kaereni]

I played on test back in the early days of eq1. I well remember the character wipe.  But, I also remember the outcry and SOE changing it from a char wipe to a full item wipe. Granted finding yourself nude, broke,  and without food or drink is not fun but it is no where near as bad as the char wipe was. I play on test. I will say  that for 90% orf the population that plays eq2 it is not the place to be.  On test server you see patches almost every day, sometimes a couple times a day. On test you will find loads of bugs.  On test you will see bugs that have been reported and reported and reported still not fixed.  On test you will find a much smaller perminate population. On test you will find new quests with misleading or wrong guide info in your journal. You think I make it sound all bad?  Well there is an up side also... On test you will see a bug you found fixed on the next patch.  On test you will see everyone working together to solve why a bug is happening happens. On test you will see new content. On test you will work with devs. On test you will find things on the brokers priced fairly for the most part. On test you will find people handing out adept level books to others free of charge.  On test you will find that most everyone will be willing to help at anypoint. An example of the last. Someone was trying to solo AC4 and was having problems. No less then 3 other players not in the same guild dropped what they were doing, switched toons, and went to help. Test is a wonderfull place that at times will make you want to pull your hair out.  Is it worth it?  To me yes it is... To you? Only you can tell. But think about giving it a shot  before throwing stones. <div></div>

[otlg]

<DIV>Why not play on test?  Well I did (or tried).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's my take on why some people don't like it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Only certainly folks 'fit in' and those that don't are quickly derided.  Maybe it's just my bad experience, my particular personality.  Hell it may have even been a mis-understanding, but I got into several fights with people in chat because, I'm loud, have a lot of energy and like to ask questions.  The only reason I joined the chat channels is in #2 below.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)  There is *no* one on to group with.  Again, unless you are a veteran on the server it's difficult to find folks to play with.  I have to solo enough on my main due to the fact that he's up at lvl 47 and my server isn't over flowing with > lvl 40 people.  You can't group in zone and are forced into the chat channels to try and find folks to hook up with.  Strike 1 for the role-playing aspects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)  The economy is TOTALLY USELESS.  Nothing has any value.  Which makes it difficult to be a pure artisan.  With everyone giving everything to any for free, it really takes any reward out of crafting IMHO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4)  A poster said earlier there are always resources available, but in my experience on test, I had to gather all my resources myself as there was almost nothing on the broker.  Same goes for equipment.  Which forces you (again) onto the chat system, where someone tears a strip off you, if you don't follow some unwritten rule about how you test folks conduct yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So that's why I don't play.  Now <STRONG>for the record</STRONG> I did run into a lot of helpful people on test, and I'm not saying <STRONG>anyone</STRONG> there is a bad person, but for <STRONG>me</STRONG>, it felt elitest and I don't like that.  <STRONG>I</STRONG> didn't get along with folks there well, yet I have a large number of people on my production server I do get along with.  This isn't to say anyone is wrong on test, but you need to realize.. birds of a feather....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Osiri</DIV>

[Yeor]

I've played the Test server some back in EQ1 where I made a Froglok Paladin. That is actually one of my most memorable EQ moments....I remember I used the Instant Level 25 command and got some armor and stuff along with it, then I just decided to go exploring =) I believe I went to Kunark and just checked everything out in the Frontier Mountains. I recall wandering onto this hill with a statue on it and something spawned and insta-slaid me, scared the crap out of me because I'd never been there even with my main on another server. Then I wandered into some dungeony area. Very interesting experience. I also played Test in Planetside whenever they announced a live playtest of a feature. It was just kind of neat getting to mess around with the stuff that was hot off the press...Test server to me seems to be a lot lighter-hearted environment. You're there to check stuff out, to truly enjoy the game, and ultimately you get to help it -grow-. That's important to me, I care about the games I play and would like to have that impact. I guess I just never thought about it in-depth. Man, I'm gonna see if a group of players from my guild want to start Test characters maybe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It would be a good testing grounds for an idea I've been tossing around for a few months that when I make the nigh-inevitable move to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (sorry SOE but your games are straying away from my style and on some levels, my values...), if they have a good Test server, I will create my guild there. I think it'd certainly be an interesting thing to do, and I could easily see it bringing some stuff to test that might not be there...like roleplaying or something <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Culann Heartsto]

Why not play Test?  Let's see.. <ol> <li>No COPY function to Test, and I am for sure not about to move a dedicated character with the potential to move it to a server where a wipe could potentially occur.</li> <li>No friends on Test..for the selfsame reason above..ergo no point for me either.</li> <li>GL of a guild on Kith server, not abandoning my guild due to #1. <u> Not ever.</u></li> <li>SOE's track record regarding things on Test that were bugged / reported and going live regardless of effort.  I have no doubts there's some talented folks over on Test who report a lot of stuff.  And would be willing to bet that more than a marginal percentage of what they report / bug gets sent on to Live servers anyway.  That trail of logic leads me to a Prime Thought.  Why bother?  Even if I do find it and report it, it may not do any good.</li> <li>Rumors of the attitude of people on Test.  I have no proof, no definable evidence, empirical or otherwise to support it, only what's read in fragments here or there, or mentioned by people en passant.  However the <i>impression</i> I get however truthful or false, is that the population that lives on Test are just not very friendly.  Ergo, it disinclines me along with #1-#4 on being part.</li> </ol> Think that pretty much sums it up.  Is some of it conjecture?  Possibly.  Is some of it factual, also possibly.  However it creates a very distinct sense..or perspective if you will, that Test is not somewhere I want to be. -Culann Heartstone, 49 Dwarven Paladin -GL Companions -Kithicor Server

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Culann Heartstone wrote:<BR><BR>Why not play Test?  Let's see..<BR><BR> <OL> <LI>No COPY function to Test, and I am for sure not about to move a dedicated character with the potential to move it to a server where a wipe could potentially occur.</LI> <LI>No friends on Test..for the selfsame reason above..ergo no point for me either.</LI> <LI>GL of a guild on Kith server, not abandoning my guild due to #1. <U> Not ever.</U></LI> <LI>SOE's track record regarding things on Test that were bugged / reported and going live regardless of effort.  I have no doubts there's some talented folks over on Test who report a lot of stuff.  And would be willing to bet that more than a marginal percentage of what they report / bug gets sent on to Live servers anyway.  That trail of logic leads me to a Prime Thought.  Why bother?  Even if I do find it and report it, it may not do any good.</LI> <LI>Rumors of the attitude of people on Test.  I have no proof, no definable evidence, empirical or otherwise to support it, only what's read in fragments here or there, or mentioned by people en passant.  However the <I>impression</I> I get however truthful or false, is that the population that lives on Test are just not very friendly.  Ergo, it disinclines me along with #1-#4 on being part.</LI></OL>Think that pretty much sums it up.  Is some of it conjecture?  Possibly.  Is some of it factual, also possibly.  However it creates a very distinct sense..or perspective if you will, that Test is not somewhere I want to be.<BR><BR>-Culann Heartstone, 49 Dwarven Paladin<BR>-GL Companions<BR>-Kithicor Server<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmmm....So your only real reason for not playing on test is number one, no copy function to test.  If there was a copy function, you would play on test making your other four reasons moot. </P> <P>As for the perceived 'unfriendly attitude' on test.  On the 24th of this month, I asked in the test channel if it was bad form to ask for unguilded alts to help my wife and I start a guild.  Less than 20 minutes later, my wife and I were grouped with four other people hailing the NPC to start a guild.</P> <P>We are now slowly growing and churning out writs together.</P> <p>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 AM</span>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>Culann Heartstone wrote: Why not play Test?  Let's see.. <ol><li>Rumors of the attitude of people on Test.  I have no proof, no definable evidence, empirical or otherwise to support it, only what's read in fragments here or there, or mentioned by people en passant.  However the <i>impression</i> I get however truthful or false, is that the population that lives on Test are just not very friendly.  Ergo, it disinclines me along with #1-#4 on being part.</li> </ol> Think that pretty much sums it up.  Is some of it conjecture?  Possibly. <hr></blockquote> There have been personality clashes on Test, no doubt, but generally the only people I've seen receive negative treatment from the community are the ones who treat the community negatively. We really do help each other out.  Within a guild especially, yes, but also server-wide.  People regularly offer books (Adepts and crafting books) for free to the first taker in the Test channel.  Groups are made across guilds, and with unguilded players.  Every raid I've been on included players from 3 or 3 guilds (and I happen to belong to one of the few guilds on Test that could get by on only its own members, but who wants to do that?  It's boring and there are a lot of good people out there).  I've been sent books, bags, and plat unasked by people who just thought I could use them.  I gave away gold yesterday myself, finding myself with enough to spare for once. The only people I've personally seen being treated rudely are the ones who make unreasonable demands, or treat other people badly.  YES, there are strong personalities on Test, and they stick out because even if they're only medium-sized fish, to abuse a metaphor, it's a small pond.  But really, I was a complete newbie when I started and I managed just fine.  Do I like everyone on the server?  No, not necessarily, but I get along with them all well enough. That's the long way of saying, that's a horrible thing to trust to rumors about.  How very high-school! Now, not wanting to leave your guild is laudable.  But that doesn't stop you or anyone else from, as others have suggested, leveling a test Toon once a week, slowly.  We have a decent number of people around who play Live toons at least half of the time, but they get along just fine on Test. </span><div></div>

[Kaereni]

<ol> <li>SOE's track record regarding things on Test that were bugged / reported and going live regardless of effort.  I have no doubts there's some talented folks over on Test who report a lot of stuff.  And would be willing to bet that more than a marginal percentage of what they report / bug gets sent on to Live servers anyway.  That trail of logic leads me to a Prime Thought.  Why bother?  Even if I do find it and report it, it may not do any good.</li><li>Rumors of the attitude of people on Test.  I have no proof, no definable evidence, empirical or otherwise to support it, only what's read in fragments here or there, or mentioned by people en passant.  However the <i>impression</i> I get however truthful or false, is that the population that lives on Test are just not very friendly.</li> </ol> Let me address these two points. 1.  For every 99 bugs we find and that are addressed one is not. But people on live servers do not see the ones that were fixed. They only see the one broken and screams that SOE is slacking off or that the test folks are not doing squat.  Of the two the latter one is the one that burns my rear.  Not too long ago someone offical (I will not say nis name) posted a message in reply to a bug in the live forums allong the lines of "oops we did not catch that one." My friends that is a lie. We reported and bugged and evey tried to see what was the direct cause.  But it is all on the Devs to deceide what to fix in the given time frame before somethiing goes live.  Splitpaw is a very good example. We have been testing it  for a while now and there are still pathing and some loot issues. But to fix involves pushing back the release date. Somehow I do not see  the date being pushed back. As a result the testers are the ones who take the blame. But what people do not understand is that as of last night splitpaw is 100 times better then it was when we first saw it. 2. I have been on test from day one it went public. In all that time I have only seen 4 times that people have been less then friendly. Two of the cases were when someone badgered everyone about how test should be and how the game combat changes should happen. In those two cases it was someone who was trying to make the game better but talkign to the wrong people. But instead of posting the ideas on how to change the chat channel was spamed. The result of it was a far number of players ether put the person on ignore or left the channel. One case is where someone came on to the channel and first thing he/she said was "Test sucks!"  I dont know about anyone else but somehow I do not believe that saying "test sucks" is a good and friendly way to start.  People did jump on the person's case for saying that.  The last case was where someone made a remark that could and was taken two ways. Looked one way it insulted everyone in a big way. It was a real button pusher and people reacted to it as such.  But it could be taken another way and was harmless. Also people took it that way and rose to the defense of the person who made the statement.  Is test all hearts and flowers? no. Is everyone friendly? no.. But the majority are good people who will help.  Just remember, just like in real life, there are good folks, ok folks, and the rear end.  If you try and find a place where everyione is good and friendly all the time?  I wish you good luck and offer this piece of advice, pack a lunch and be prepaired to wait a long time. <div></div>

[Culann Heartsto]

<span><blockquote><blockquote> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Hmmm....So your only real reason for not playing on test is number one, no copy function to test.  If there was a copy function, you would play on test making your other four reasons moot. </p> <p>As for the perceived 'unfriendly attitude' on test.  On the 24th of this month, I asked in the test channel if it was bad form to ask for unguilded alts to help my wife and I start a guild.  Less than 20 minutes later, my wife and I were grouped with four other people hailing the NPC to start a guild.</p> <p>We are now slowly growing and churning out writs together.</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <span class="date_text">06-28-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:23 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Incorrect.  If there was a copy funtion to allow characters to move to Test, there's no assurance any of my friends would go anyway. There is also a set amount of time that needs to be spent in responsibility for the guild you hold, and I'm not giving that up. There's no confirmation the people there, as I mentioned, are friendly. So no no and no. That's 3 strikes you're out. =)</span><div></div>

[Culann Heartsto]

<span><blockquote><span><blockquote><hr></blockquote> There have been personality clashes on Test, no doubt, but generally the only people I've seen receive negative treatment from the community are the ones who treat the community negatively. We really do help each other out.  Within a guild especially, yes, but also server-wide.  People regularly offer books (Adepts and crafting books) for free to the first taker in the Test channel.  Groups are made across guilds, and with unguilded players.  Every raid I've been on included players from 3 or 3 guilds (and I happen to belong to one of the few guilds on Test that could get by on only its own members, but who wants to do that?  It's boring and there are a lot of good people out there).  I've been sent books, bags, and plat unasked by people who just thought I could use them.  I gave away gold yesterday myself, finding myself with enough to spare for once. The only people I've personally seen being treated rudely are the ones who make unreasonable demands, or treat other people badly.  YES, there are strong personalities on Test, and they stick out because even if they're only medium-sized fish, to abuse a metaphor, it's a small pond.  But really, I was a complete newbie when I started and I managed just fine.  Do I like everyone on the server?  No, not necessarily, but I get along with them all well enough. That's the long way of saying, that's a horrible thing to trust to rumors about.  How very high-school! Now, not wanting to leave your guild is laudable.  But that doesn't stop you or anyone else from, as others have suggested, leveling a test Toon once a week, slowly.  We have a decent number of people around who play Live toons at least half of the time, but they get along just fine on Test. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote> Well..I did intentionally point out it was likely conjecture and the rumor was as I described.  However the things I mentioned are a bit interlocked, if you will.  Sure if the people were great, that would resolve 1 of the aspects, but alongside that, I'm a 49 Paladin on Kith.  I have a guild that's in a stage of evolution..we have quite a few who are moving from the stages of "Let me get that next level" to "Wonder when we're going to raid next?'  and this evolutionary pose has, taken quite a bit of administration.  I really do NOT have the time to level a toon over on Test with any real intentions of getting it anywhere, and manage the guild at the same time.  Plus it's a division of loyalties, and my first loyalty is to my guild and toon on Kith. So..even if the people there were all scintillatingly friendly (no sarcasm, just pushing for extreme) there's still no time to make it happen.  Plus...SOE's track record....as I pointed out, I'm sure alot gets bugged / reported and chugs right on through to live anyway. The usual catchpiece to seeing that is the patch that fixes the patch that was supposed to fix the big patch that SOE put out.  Or..3 patches to get new things sorted and properly fixed. </span><div></div>

[DuvB]

<P>I actually would love to play test, however, being computer illiterate I do not understand sony's instructions on how to even access it lol.  :smileysad:</P> <P> </P> <P>By the way, if anyone can post (in Lamens terms) how to access the test server, I would be indebted </P><p>Message Edited by DuvBre on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:11 AM</span>

[bigmak20]

Because I'm an engineer that builds global communications and data processing transaction systems in RL.  Testing is an RL issue not a character or gaming issue. <font size="5"><b>Why in the name of god would anyone PAY to test a companies product FOR THEM.</b></font> If I don't have it right when it goes live my company looses money and I get reamed a new one. So bugs I find in live make me genuinely annoyed -- but I do understand some things slip thru.  But for them to be identifed in test but then allowed to go live really really really make me mad.  Also; sometimes you only really see a problem until it is in a 'real use' situation ... so like I said... I understand.  BUT; <b>way too many issues for me to believe SOE tests on any professional level</b>. When I look at some of the stuff SOE has in game I'm consequently reminded of quality issues we have in engineering firms that have outsourced all their tech work to overseas sweat shop programming farms. You may say I'm confusing RL with a GAME. BUT THAT IS ACTUALLY MY NUMBER ONE POINT. I play a GAME.  Testing is WORK that SOE should be paying professionals to do in a systematic and quantitative manner so bugs get fixed before any customer sees them.  I have no doubt theres not a single engineer at SOE that knows what this term means... REGRESSION TESTING and before it gets to that do some UNIT TESTING then some INTEGRATION TESTING then some SYSTEM TESTING .... see the point?  SOE NEEDS TO TEST.. NOT US

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DuvBre wrote:<BR> <P>I actually would love to play test, however, being computer illiterate I do not understand sony's instructions on how to even access it lol.  :smileysad:</P> <P> </P> <P>By the way, if anyone can post (in Lamens terms) how to access the test server, I would be indebted </P> <P>Message Edited by DuvBre on <SPAN class=date_text>06-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:11 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Easiest way I know how.</P> <P><FONT size=2>Click Start <BR>My Computer <BR>Local Disc C: <BR>Program Files <BR>Sony <BR><BR>Now, find the everquest 2 folder, right click and copy to desktop <BR>Then rename the folder TestEQ2 or something. <BR>Move it back into the Sony folder <BR>Go into that newly made folder and find the folder that says Test Server <BR>Find the TestEverquest2 icon in that folder---it is red <BR>Right click on it and pick Create Shortcut <BR>Move the shortcut to your desktop </FONT></P>

[DuvB]

Best instructions ive read yet, ty much :smileyhappy:

[Daffid011]

I think you need to copy the "testeq2.exe" icon into your new "testeverquest2" folder or else the patcher will try to download the whole game again into the "test server" folder.  You will know something is wrong if the patcher shows a 12 hour download. The "testeserverhelp.txt" file in the testserver folder show some folders and files to delete from your newly made directory where the test files will reside. Folders to delete: cache, logincache, TestServer File to delete: eq2_default.ini Hope that helps <div></div>

[DuvB]

<DIV>-goes to cancle the 16 hour update-    That helps immensely lol, ty</DIV> <P>Woot!  From 16 hours down to 7 min, can't beat that</P><p>Message Edited by DuvBre on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 PM</span>

[Gaellen]

I refuse to re-grind to test a product I pay for.  Pretty simple. Now, if I could <b>copy</b> my character to test, I'd be more than happy to pop over and test new features or content relevant to my classes, for all the positive reasons you list above.  But regrind?  To test?  Only if they paid me.

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaellen wrote:<BR><BR>I refuse to re-grind to test a product I pay for.  Pretty simple.<BR><BR>Now, if I could <B>copy</B> my character to test, I'd be more than happy to pop over and test new features or content relevant to my classes, for all the positive reasons you list above.  <BR><BR>But regrind?  To test?  Only if they paid me.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't know about you, or anyone else who complains about re-grinding, but I have five alts, all between levels 8 and 17.</P> <P>I'm pretty dang sure other people have alts too.</P> <P>So how is slowly leveling an alt on Test -- which doesn't count against your character limit -- different from slowly leveling an alt on a prod server?</P> <P>I mean, I don't play my frog mage often but I still play her every now and then, and slowly she makes progress.  Then I go back to my main.</P> <P>So what's the problem with "re-grinding?"</P>

[otlg]

<P>EtoilePB:</P> <P>You asked the question, people answered.  Don't try and tell them they are wrong for their opinions.  If you didn't want to know you shouldn't have started the thread.  If you think this thread will convince those who don't to play on test, to play on test, by your showing them the errors of their ways, save everyone's time.</P> <P>It's not that anyone minds re-grinding.  The problem is re-grinding, so you can test <STRONG>for</STRONG> Sony, and <STRONG>having to pay</STRONG> to do something that is usually considered a <STRONG>paying job (QA)</STRONG>.  You <STRONG>totally</STRONG> missed the relevant portions of the OPs post, chosing instead to focus on why he is wrong (in your opinion).</P> <P>Osiri</P>

[Angelspe]

<P>OK I have a very simple question for all u 'testers' - Why is is that whenever SOE release any update to EQ2 that affects more than one zone/mob/aspect of the game we all suffer? WE ARE THE PAYING CUSTOMERS NOT THE TESTERS!!!</P> <P>I am so sickened by the whole process SOE seem to adopt whereby not only do they 'officially' recruit us as testers (i.e. on the test servers), but they also inflict their buggy updates onto already bugged game code. I have just spent the best part of 6 hours putting up with zone reboots every 5 mins, mobs vanishing when u attack them, and too many other bugs to mention related to the Splitpaw upgrade. </P> <P>Why do we put up with this a paying customers of SOE?</P> <P>They are making a fortune from our subscriptions - not to mention the countless 'upgrades' (read: beta code which is probably minimally tested but they will charge you $7.99 for anyway).</P> <P>One final point. You might be sat there thinking 'But this is not uncommon! This is often the way things happen with online games. Things get sorted out eventually.' Well I have only this to say to you - Baaaaaa</P> <P>Nice grazing with u</P> <P>xxx</P> <P> </P> <P>p.s. DO SOMETHING TO MAKE YOU FEEL ALIVE</P>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> otlg wrote:<BR> <P>EtoilePB:</P> <P>You asked the question, people answered.  Don't try and tell them they are wrong for their opinions.  If you didn't want to know you shouldn't have started the thread.  If you think this thread will convince those who don't to play on test, to play on test, by your showing them the errors of their ways, save everyone's time.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>They answer me, I answer them.  Last time I checked it was called a "discussion."</P> <P>I don't recall calling anyone names, or telling them they were wrong.  I'm trying to present counterarguments, beacuse in my opinion that's what a public forum is for.  And it's good to hear actual reasons and to try and be able to refute them, or to help.</P> <P> </P>

[otlg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EtoilePB wrote:<BR> <P>They answer me, I answer them.  Last time I checked it was called a "discussion."</P> <P>I don't recall calling anyone names, or telling them they were wrong.  I'm trying to present counterarguments, beacuse in my opinion that's what a public forum is for.  And it's good to hear actual reasons and to try and be able to refute them, or to help.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>EtoilePB:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry if I didn't make my initial statement clear enough (and upon review I really didn't).  The point I was really getting at there, even though I didn't say it (hey things make sense in your head, they just don't always make it to the fingers), is this:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>When you only respond to one part of someone's statement, like you did, it gives the appearance that you either aren't trying to really understand the person's point of view <STRONG>or</STRONG> you have an ulterior motive/are trying to fleece someone. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I replied in this particular incident, not because I feel you are try to fleece someone, but because you missed the main point, that despite all other points seems to be the <STRONG>real</STRONG> reason a lot of people don't want to play on test.  That reason is simple; why in the name of all that is good and holy would I want to <STRONG>pay</STRONG> a <STRONG>corporation</STRONG> to make <STRONG>their</STRONG> product better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Worse still is the fact that due to it's low population and shattered economy the test server is well, boring or at least less of an experience than the live servers.  It costs me the same to spend an hour on both, so why should I choose to spend that time/money on a less satisfying experience?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the question people are <STRONG>really </STRONG>asking Sony, even if they don't know it is:  Why should we play on test.  How does it benefit <STRONG>me</STRONG>.  Yes, that's the selfish view, but unfortunately we live in a world where if you don't look out for yourself, no one else will.  It permiates our every decision and I can't fault people for feeling that way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone just posted a great link to their thoughts on the test server and I for one agree and had the exact same thoughts a few days ago. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only other thing I would suggest is that Sony rename Test.  Call it 'First Look' or something.  Test implies massive buggy POS to most people and people again, <STRONG>do not want to pay for even more bugs</STRONG>. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Osiri</DIV>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>otlg wrote:<div></div><div> I replied in this particular incident, not because I feel you are try to fleece someone, but because you missed the main point, that despite all other points seems to be the <strong>real</strong> reason a lot of people don't want to play on test.  <u>That reason is simple; why in the name of all that is good and holy would I want to <strong>pay</strong> a <strong>corporation</strong> to make <strong>their</strong> product better</u>?</div><div> Osiri</div><hr></blockquote>Yet almost to the last person everyone who stated that reason claimed they would test if given a copy of their character.  So the real reason as you state it, really isn't the reason at all is it now? Of course that testing is primarily limited to what affects their character in the patch notes, but that is beside the point.</span><div></div>

[otlg]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> otlg wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>I replied in this particular incident, not because I feel you are try to fleece someone, but because you missed the main point, that despite all other points seems to be the <STRONG>real</STRONG> reason a lot of people don't want to play on test.  <U>That reason is simple; why in the name of all that is good and holy would I want to <STRONG>pay</STRONG> a <STRONG>corporation</STRONG> to make <STRONG>their</STRONG> product better</U>?</DIV> <DIV><BR>Osiri</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yet almost to the last person everyone who stated that reason claimed they would test if given a copy of their character.  So the real reason as you state it, really isn't the reason at all is it now?<BR><BR>Of course that testing is primarily limited to what affects their character in the patch notes, but that is beside the point.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Daffid011:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually I disagree.  Most people listed not being able to copy their character as 1 of many reasons.  More people (if you go and count) listed paying to test Sony's product.  I'm serious, go count the replies that mention both points and see which is more common.  Then go read all the other threads about the same thing.  You will see that is a prime reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Osiri<BR></DIV>

[Daffid011]

Let me try to explain it again.  If someone says they wont test because they don't want to pay to test, but then says they will test if given a copy, then the main reason IS NOT the paying factor.  I don't need to count replies to find a few people who state the pay factor and don't ask for a copy.   Instead why don't you just do a forum search for the word copy/clone in this forum and count the numerous ->threads<- where people ask for copies.  Then try to find one post about not paying to test. Then notice how those posts are only made the day of server outages.... *wink* <div></div>

[bigmak20]

<div></div>Simple.. They'll "test" if allowed to copy their character to see the impact the changes will have on their character. Not really the same as "test". Which IMO is why Sony doesn't let you copy your real toons to test.  They don't want you to know. I will not pay to test Sony's product for them.  I would play on "test" with a copy of my main to see what impact the changes had on him. on edit: they tend to post when the servers are down because the servers are down and they can't play so the only 'fix' is to talk about playing.... seems kinda self evident.  The same reason I'm on here typing posts when I'm on incredibly boring conference calls at work....<p>Message Edited by bigmak2010 on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:50 PM</span>

[risi]

<DIV>Why not play on Test to be the first guild to do something?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simple... cause if you are in a particular guild on a particular server that knows particular devs, you get your whole guild copied to the Test server to try out the new stuff and be the FIRST to do things with out people like you even knowing it is happening.  All the while, they keep their characters on their real server and continue on knowing all the secrets of the upcoming changes before anybody else does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But... you go on believing that you are special. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and you don't know who I am talking about, then you just haven't been playing EQ long enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Daffid011]

It isn't like said guild wasn't the first to beat encounters gamewide before: They  were copied to EQ2 test, there was an EQ2 test, there was EQ2,  before there was such a thing as expansion and most likely before the vast majority of player even knew of EQ1. I can safely say they were kicking tail before anyone else and continue to this day for a reason and it has nothing to do with being on the test server for the last few weeks. Get over it already. <div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>otlg wrote:<div></div> <div>I'm sorry if I didn't make my initial statement clear enough (and upon review I really didn't).  The point I was really getting at there, even though I didn't say it (hey things make sense in your head, they just don't always make it to the fingers), is this:</div> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <div>When you only respond to one part of someone's statement, like you did, it gives the appearance that you either aren't trying to really understand the person's point of view <strong>or</strong> you have an ulterior motive/are trying to fleece someone. </div></blockquote><hr></blockquote> Ah, that's better.  Got you now. It's more that certain things get addressed so often, I wanted to take on the ones that get ignored.  Didn't mean for it to come across the other way. As to low population, however, I stress again that that will not change so long as no-one else comes over.  It takes effort to change it, and if multiple people say, "I won't play Test because the server population is too low," then my response to that particular reason is, "the server population will only cange one person at a time, so why not fix the problem?" As you say, that response only addresses that charge. As for paying, rewards, etc... 90% of the time I think it's not necessary.  But then I spend two solid weeks heavily playtesting something, and running experience, and recording data and yes, I feel like there should be some incentive.  But I'd settle for, for example, free access to Splitpaw, which I've already spent weeks in testing and re-testing.  It seems foolish, to me, to start charging us for that zone on the go-live date when we've already run rampant and tested out the whole thing (and tried our best to break it, with success, in many cases) for ages. But that's a different discussion, hehe.</span><div></div>

[observer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR>It isn't like said <FONT color=#ff0000>cheaters</FONT> wasn't the first to beat encounters gamewide before: They  were copied to EQ2 test, there was an EQ2 test, there was EQ2,  before there was such a thing as expansion and most likely before the vast majority of player even knew of EQ1.<BR><BR>I can safely say they were kicking tail before anyone else and continue to this day for a reason and it has nothing to do with being on the test server for the last few weeks. <BR><BR>Get over it already.<BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Replace guild with cheaters and it's the same thing.  What's even worse is that people PAY for server wide firsts via EQ2Players.  Good game SOE, cheating your customers and they don't even know it!<BR>

[Daffid011]

Need some kleenex? <div></div>

[bigmak20]

<span>Guild being allowed to copy characters to test and practice against a raid MoB on "test" then "conquer" the raid mob in live/prod server with skills learned in test is cheating imo. HOWEVER if they didn't get their toons copied and PLAYED toons to 50 on test.... good for them.  Smart move. Wow; a legitimate reason to play on test.  Never thought of it before. </span><div></div>

[Daffid011]

They copied to test at the REQUEST of the developers to help TEST one set of encounters.  How is that cheating? <div></div>

[bigmak20]

It's cheating because everyone else is being told copying over isn't allowed.  That's issuing specific favor to one group of players -- it's an obvious exploit.  Very disturbing it was initiated by Sony.  If I was a guild leader in that guild I would have turned it down; I swear to god; but I'm old and wise (HAHA; who knows) compared to some of the younger crowd that would have stopped the thought process at 'neat!; sure!'. Since SONY offered it to the guild... tough to blame the guild.  Doesn't change the fact that it's cheating though -- simply cheating SONY endorsed. To not be cheating SONY would have to offer it to everyone or exclude said guild from the live instance until someone discovered and conquered it for real. If you rob a store are you no longer guilty of robbery if someone "told you to"? VERY disturbing such a blatant exploit was driven by Sony.

[LiquidSky]

<DIV><FONT size=4>You are not guilty of robbing the store if the OWNER told you to take the stuff for free.....even if he doesn't allow someone else to.</FONT></DIV>

[alykat4]

bottom line imo is, that like RL and your real community, if you don't participate in making things different, you have no grounds to complain when things don't go the way you think they should.  you want things to change? get involved. otherwise, sit back and live with your inaction quietly. twinkle twinkle little star....... <div></div>

[dennis]

Having played the beta I felt it natural to play on the test server as well... I'm looking forward to testing the new patches. <div></div>

[Gaellen]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>EtoilePB wrote:<blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:I refuse to re-grind to test a product I pay for.  Pretty simple.Now, if I could <b>copy</b> my character to test, I'd be more than happy to pop over and test new features or content relevant to my classes, for all the positive reasons you list above. But regrind?  To test?  Only if they paid me.<hr></blockquote><p>I don't know about you, or anyone else who complains about re-grinding, but I have five alts, all between levels 8 and 17.</p><p>I'm pretty dang sure other people have alts too.</p><p>So how is slowly leveling an alt on Test -- which doesn't count against your character limit -- different from slowly leveling an alt on a prod server?</p><p>I mean, I don't play my frog mage often but I still play her every now and then, and slowly she makes progress.  Then I go back to my main.</p><p>So what's the problem with "re-grinding?"</p><hr></blockquote></span><p><span>I'm extremely happy for you, and respect your playstyle.  I have a few alts in the low level range that I created for fun; I have a merchant toon which I use for additional storage; I have a 50 adventurer / 50 tradeskiller.<span>  </span>I do not <i>play</i> any character other than my main, and my use of the word play here defines logging in for more than 10 or 20 minutes, with some kind of purpose beyond item transfer or the like.</span></p><p><span>Apparently my playstyle represents a large proportion of the playerbase.<span>  </span>We quest, we gather, we collect, we create, we progress, and we don’t like to repeat it all over again.<span>  </span>Some of us occasionally do, like you said, for fun.<span>  </span>But what purpose does it serve if I create a new alt and spend all my Test time, which would be limited as-is, retesting content that’s now a year old and already quite thoroughly tested?<span>  </span>What purpose does it serve for me to spend an hour here or there killing orcs in the Commonlands?<span>  </span>And above all, what is the incentive for me to do so, knowing that my exposure to knew content is minimal?</span></p><p><span>90% of the new content and features introduced require an experienced character to test, and it’s my firm belief that it can be best tested by people with actual play experience in the class itself.</span></p><p><span>For example, not long ago a patch broke some recipies.<span>  </span>To notice that, I would have to play a high level crafter in the same class on Test and on Live, and spot the disparity.<span>  </span><span>  </span>Am I about to create a new Provisioner on test, and retrace my steps of the last 9 months?<span>  </span>No, not really.  However, if my character existed on both and I saw in the test notes that a change had been made, I would have logged in and whipped out one or two of each of the new items, played around with a few of my existing items, <i>and I absolutely would have bugged those that didn't work as intended</i>. </span></p><p><span>The test server cannot be a really constructive testing environment without a high population, with characters of both adventure and tradeskill classes similar in level to those on the Live servers.<span>  </span>This is the same theory behind the guild copy which was done to test the new raid content, and until a copy service it is offered, few people I know will ever play on the test server. </span></p><span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gaellen on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:56 AM</span>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:<div></div><div></div><span></span><p><span>Apparently my playstyle represents a large proportion of the playerbase.<span>  </span>We quest, we gather, we collect, we create, we progress, and we don’t like to repeat it all over again.<span>  </span>Some of us occasionally do, like you said, for fun.<span>  </span>But what purpose does it serve if I create a new alt and spend all my Test time, which would be limited as-is, retesting content that’s now a year old and already quite thoroughly tested?<span>  </span>What purpose does it serve for me to spend an hour here or there killing orcs in the Commonlands?<span>  </span>And above all, what is the incentive for me to do so, knowing that my exposure to knew content is minimal?</span></p> <hr></blockquote>First, don't speak as if you are the spokesman for the "large proportion" of the playerbase, because you are not. Second, you have no clue how much is broken that IS NOT listed in the patch notes.  So you can think that poping over for your hour or so to click a few combines will be some sort of test savior, but I can speak from experience about copies that it most likley  will not.  Believe it or not, more goes wrong that characters under level 50 find than what you think is possible.  Yes even though the content is the same as a year ago (even though the 1 year date is in November =P ).  It isn't as simple as reading the notes and double checking they do what is listed.  Third, some things are reported as broken and still go live for a number of reasons you and I simply cannot possibly know.  Don't assume that something got missed, because often it isn't.  My suggestion is make a character here or go back to the fanstands.  Anyone can claim they would have caught something... after the fact. Cheers, -Fekkin. </span><div></div>

[Gaellen]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Daffid011 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:<span></span><p><span>Apparently my playstyle represents a large proportion of the playerbase.<span>  </span>We quest, we gather, we collect, we create, we progress, and we don’t like to repeat it all over again.<span>  </span>Some of us occasionally do, like you said, for fun.<span>  </span>But what purpose does it serve if I create a new alt and spend all my Test time, which would be limited as-is, retesting content that’s now a year old and already quite thoroughly tested?<span>  </span>What purpose does it serve for me to spend an hour here or there killing orcs in the Commonlands?<span>  </span>And above all, what is the incentive for me to do so, knowing that my exposure to knew content is minimal?</span></p><hr></blockquote>First, don't speak as if you are the spokesman for the "large proportion" of the playerbase, because you are not.</span><p><font color="#ffff00">While I claimed a similar playstyle to a large proportion of the server, a typical <b>non-test player</b>, I didn’t claim any kind of spokesperson role - but </font><font color="#ffff00">let me clarify my reasoning here.  I initially asked 20 people in my guild.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">As we are a raiding guild this seemed somewhat bias, so I followed up by asking 20 people I know who are spread around different family guilds.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">The response was universal, and twofold: they would never under any circumstances recreate a character of the same class, and they would rarely recreate a main.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">Their reasons for recreating would be to help level a friend (which most confirm they would now do via the mentor system), out of boredom (and this particular answer was prevalent amongst those who were in smaller guilds), to fill a role that was lacking in their particular group of friends or guild, or to try out an entirely new class – often from a new city, making entirely different choices so to experience the game again with a new outlook.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">40 for 40 they would not create an alt on test for one or more of the reasons I explored above, but over half said they would play for at least 5 hours a week on test if a character copy service became available.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">Their reasons for doing so are all those listed by the OP and other test supporters.</font></p><p></p><p><font color="#ffff00"><span>40 for 40 isn't the whole population, but it's a nice ratio, and the hard numbers of those who play on test and those who don't are fairly indicative that the majority of the player base are not interested in playing on test.</span></font></p><span>Second, you have no clue how much is broken that IS NOT listed in the patch notes.  So you can think that poping over for your hour or so to click a few combines will be some sort of test savior, but I can speak from experience about copies that it most likley  will not.  Believe it or not, more goes wrong that characters under level 50 find than what you think is possible.  Yes even though the content is the same as a year ago (even though the 1 year date is in November =P ).  It isn't as simple as reading the notes and double checking they do what is listed. </span><p><font color="#ffff00">This is very true; perhaps I didn’t clarify enough that I would have tested my other recipes, and other things related specifically to my class.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">However with an overall larger population I definitely think the likelihood of these other, non-patch related bugs would be found.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">Five thousand people trying something rather than one thousand.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I never claimed the role of savoir nor test extraordinaire.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">The prodigal daugher isn't coming home.  However, I would enter what bugs I found, and</font><font color="#ffff00"><span> </span></font><font color="#ffff00">I would play for a few hours – which is what the discussion was about.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font></p><span>Third, some things are reported as broken and still go live for a number of reasons you and I simply cannot possibly know.  Don't assume that something got missed, because often it isn't. </span><p><font color="#ffff00">I’ve worked in the game industry for 4 years now, 3 of them in QA -</font><font color="#ffff00"><span> t</span></font><font color="#ffff00">here are a lot of reasons things go through, all of which are beyond the scope of this thread.  This is about why people don’t play on test, nothing more.</font></p><span>My suggestion is make a character here or go back to the fanstands.  Anyone can claim they would have caught something... after the fact.</span><p><font color="#ffff00">Again, I never claimed I personally would have caught something that you personally didn’t – I’m not a test basher. </font><font color="#ffff00"><span> </span></font><font color="#ffff00">I certainly didn’t imply that you or anybody on test are somehow a bad people, players or testers because an opal selling bug made it to Live.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">To recap, my point was:</font></p><p><!-- [if !supportLists] --><font color="#ffff00"><span>-<span>         </span></span></font><!-- [endif] --><font color="#ffff00">Many of us don’t have time to regrind</font></p><p><!-- [if !supportLists] --><font color="#ffff00"><span>-<span>         </span></span></font><!-- [endif] --><font color="#ffff00">A large number of people prefer to play a character they have invested time and effort into, over a new character</font></p><p><!-- [if !supportLists] --><font color="#ffff00"><span>-<span>         </span></span></font><!-- [endif] --><font color="#ffff00">There is minimal incentive to regrind</font></p><p><!-- [if !supportLists] --><font color="#ffff00"><span>-<span>         </span></span></font><!-- [endif] --><font color="#ffff00">Somebody with familiarity with a class or other game element is more likely to spot something wrong with it</font></p><p><!-- [if !supportLists] --><font color="#ffff00"><span>-<span>         </span></span></font><!-- [endif] --><font color="#ffff00">Exposure to new content on test is limited to those who have played on test for a long time, or been copied over</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">(I refute your claim that low level people can test new content as effectively as high – a level 10 alt could not under any circumstances have found many of the recent combat bugs, nor even entered Splitpaw or Bloodlines when they were in test) </font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">The “join us or shut up and go back to your server” mentality achieves absolutely nothing other than sullying the reputation of the test servers players.</font></p><span>Cheers,-Fekkin.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span><p>Message Edited by Gaellen on <span class="date_text">07-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:46 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Gaellen on <span class=date_text>07-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[Daffid011]

<span><span><blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote> <p><font color="#ffff00">40 for 40 they would not create an alt on test for one or more of the reasons I explored above, but over half said they would play for at least 5 hours a week on test if a character copy service became available.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">Their reasons for doing so are all those listed by the OP and other test supporters.</font></p><p></p><p><font color="#ffff00"><span>40 for 40 isn't the whole population, but it's a nice ratio, and the hard numbers of those who play on test and those who don't are fairly indicative that the majority of the player base are not interested in playing on test.</span></font></p><span></span></blockquote></span> <hr></blockquote></span>I can pole 40 people in my guild/server (test) and guess what they will all say, yes they would and did in fact recreate.  However, this is nitpicking and you did imply spokesmanship which is entirely why I think you mentioned the large populous statement as if to add some form of weight to your idea.  Just pointing that out is all.  <span><blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><p><font color="#ffff00">This is very true; perhaps I didn’t clarify enough that I would have tested my other recipes, and other things related specifically to my class.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">However with an overall larger population I definitely think the likelihood of these other, non-patch related bugs would be found.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">Five thousand people trying something rather than one thousand.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">I never claimed the role of savoir nor test extraordinaire.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">The prodigal daugher isn't coming home.  However, I would enter what bugs I found, and</font><font color="#ffff00"><span> </span></font><font color="#ffff00">I would play for a few hours – which is what the discussion was about.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font></p><span></span></blockquote></span><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>Perhaps you would log on for a few hours and contribute which I believe some would, however you are again speaking for masses with your number of 5000 testing.  I can point out DAOC, yet again, where the entire populous of the game was given the ability to copy over at will anytime they wanted.  Guess what happened?  Population went down.  Way way way down and it never came close to your sugested number of 5000 let alone 1000 or even what it was pre-copies.  I know you think you idea is a good one, but it has been suggested to death which a little searching would have found.  </span> <span><blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><span></span><p><font color="#ffff00">Again, I never claimed I personally would have caught something that you personally didn’t – I’m not a test basher. </font><font color="#ffff00"><span> </span></font><font color="#ffff00">I certainly didn’t imply that you or anybody on test are somehow a bad people, players or testers because an opal selling bug made it to Live.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span>  </span></font><font color="#ffff00">To recap, my point was:</font></p><p><!-- [if !supportLists] --><font color="#ffff00"><span></span></font></p><span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span> Here is your claim that you would have caught bugs from an earlier post "<i>For example, not long ago <u>a patch broke some recipies</u>.  To notice that, I would have to play a high level crafter in the same class on Test and on Live, and spot the disparity.    Am I about to create a new Provisioner on test, and retrace my steps of the last 9 months?  No, not really.  However, i<u>f my character existed on both and I saw in the test notes that a change had been made, I would have logged in and whipped out one or two of each of the new items</u>, played around with a few of my existing items, and<u><b> I absolutely would have bugged those that didn't work as intended</b></u>.</i>" If I sound snotty, sorry, but it gets so [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] old hearing people from the productions servers hop over and make claims they would do this or that if only they didnt have to regrind.  As for the reputation snipe, if all you want to do is beat the dead copy horse again without actually adding anything new, then yeah take a hike if thats how you want to read it.  Then be thankful your server isn't judged nonstop by an army of uninformed people who think they know what goes on where you play.  </blockquote></span> </span><div></div>

[Gaellen]

<div></div><p>On the numbers issue, I honestly can’t believe you’d nit pick over an example. 5 testers is better than 1.<span>  </span>50 is better than 10.<span>  </span>5000 is better than 1000.<span>  </span>It’s not brain surgery or rocket science. I think the people who play on test do a great job – but there aren’t enough of them.</p><p>What’s most infuriating about all of this is that all the responses so far have simply said: I don’t like your tone.<span>  </span>Take my examples out of context if you want to but the OP asked why people don’t play on test; I answered with a personal perspective, and you didn’t actually discuss any of the issues at hand or their potential solutions.</p><p>I’m adding hostile environment to the list, like some of the first posters did.<span>  </span>I’m very sorry that you feel you need to get snotty because you feel so persecuted.<span>  </span>Maybe you should try a real server?</p><div></div>

[Evadne]

Apparently it is more complicated than you think, sir.  Your formula assumes that more testers is helpful.....when you leap to a number like 5k.  Well, I can tell you it is not.  5000 reports to sift through, 90% of which are junk is a tremendous waste of time.  The player base currently on test would enjoy more players. The testing process would benefit from more people calling test home.  There will not be open copies, they copy what they need for focused testing and the community is growing naturally, providing more than enough feedback and bug reports to handle the task.  You can't see where we submit our bugs and provide our feedback.   So, you can be understood up to this point for assuming we are not doing enough.  Well, we are so you can rest easy now. ~Eva <div></div>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gaellen wrote:<div></div><p>On the numbers issue, I honestly can’t believe you’d nit pick over an example. 5 testers is better than 1.<span>  </span>50 is better than 10.<span>  </span>5000 is better than 1000.<span>  </span>It’s not brain surgery or rocket science. I think the people who play on test do a great job – but there aren’t enough of them.</p><p>What’s most infuriating about all of this is that all the responses so far have simply said: I don’t like your tone.<span>  </span>Take my examples out of context if you want to but the OP asked why people don’t play on test; I answered with a personal perspective, and you didn’t actually discuss any of the issues at hand or their potential solutions.</p><p>I’m adding hostile environment to the list, like some of the first posters did.<span>  </span>I’m very sorry that you feel you need to get snotty because you feel so persecuted.<span>  </span>Maybe you should try a real server?</p><div></div><hr></blockquote></span>5000 MIGHT be better than 1000, if you could get them, if they were dedicated, if they were not only interested in checking out personal goals, etc etc etc.  All that aside you mention it and state that a character copy would achieve this and that is what I took issue with.  Other than that I agree test could use more permanent people and in return the server really offers a completely different immersion than you could ever hope to get on live.  I suggest you go read your first post again and look at what you really talk about.  The first snippet is about you not wanting to regrind a character, then you launch into how you would help test, the process here and why test isn't viable.  You bring up the issues of testing and digress away from the why you don't play here and get into the how thing could be done.   Really, I am responding to you and not the orignal poster. You adding hostile environment to the list is so absurd since it sounds like you have never played here.  To base that on a disagreement with one person on a forum is really silly, no matter what you think of my tone.  Maybe you should actually try test before condeming it based on a message board post. I come off very hostile here despite my efforts to try and word my posts mello, in game though I am a kitten.  Cheers <div></div>

[Fire&ice]

<DIV>Fekkin is a Kitten...You scratch him behind the ears and he purrs LOUDLY :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Come on guys lighten up! If you don't want to play on Test, so be it, don't /shrug.  If you do that is great! It is alot of fun and I am very happy my husband ( No he isn't Daffid011) and I started playing here in the past couple months :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Asla]

<P>Well, here's why I expect I won't be playing on Test...</P> <P>Now, mind you, I play 16+ hours per day M-F.  (Me?  Life?  No.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    I played EQ1 for 5 years, helped out in 3 Betas.  Been in EQ2 since December, have six lvl 50 crafters (never got around o the Outfitters), and my main, a Magician yet again...  </P> <P>I made a character on Test today.    Same name, lvl 7 citizen at the moment.   I filed a /petition asking a question that has yet to be answered, but I think the answer is here on the board...  </P> <P>The quest was concerning the copy of character, or just a leg-up kit.  Here's the problem:  I'm a high lvl gamer.  Always have been, I'm interested in limits, end content, be it raid or solo.  </P> <P>The problem I immediately saw on Test is that there is *no* economy.   I search the broker end to end for equipment...  nada.</P> <P>Now, I don't know, perhaps I'd be considered 'uber'.  I have a bit of plat, Legendary/Fabled gear, 9+ Master spells, everything else is Adept III, etc.  Based on what I saw on Test server, my character cannot be recreated.  There's not enough raiding/killing/selling to even make the gear available. (There were NO raw resources for sale <crafting tester>, and exactly one Master spell.  Total of 4 Fabled items?!>   Therefore, I cannot test with a character that is a reasonable approximation of what can easily be created on Live servers.    (I *know* I can't be all THAT 'uber' when I've never done a heritage or a raid)   </P> <P>Is that normal for Test?   Do the Devs at least equip the players with gear at some point?  <Flashback to the LDoN Time raids, <evil laugh>></P> <P>But seriously, how well equipped are the testing raiders?   I understand a guild got copied, so THEY would have had realistic gear, but what about the rest/daily players?    </P> <P>And, of course, another reason is Time.   If I want to start all over again at Lvl 1, I'll go see what WoW is like, lol.  I've done IoR more than enough (12+ character).  Grinding a test character to T5, knowing that I'll never have an Adept/Master spell again...  nope, no appeal.  (Let along the length of time needed to do such a grind with such a weak character, xp bonus aside.  CR are CRs)</P> <P> </P> <P>But, that's pretty much my only reason.   I *enjoy* testing/debugging/etc.   I'm a programmer by trade, some of the best times I had in EQ were sitting around with the Devs in a test zone as we discussed tactics/logic.  </P> <P> </P> <P>If they'll let me copy a realistic Live character onto the server, I'll be a permanent member.</P>

[dejahtho]

<div></div>i'll never play on the test server because i refuse to pay to beta test.  altho, the game is essentially still beta anyway... i wouldn't play there even if they allowed a copy of my main.  i would not play there in a box, i would not play there with a fox.  i would not play it here or there, i would not play it anywhere.  <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<DIV> <P>Aslank, i <STRONG>completely</STRONG> agree with you!</P> <P>I play a lot (not as much as you mind) but i play more than the average person with a life. My main, a conjuror (also a fellow fan of the eq1 mage who was my main there) is only level 28, because i could tell after 2 months of lite playing (school and all) at level 27, i realised how terribly unbalanced the class was, so i tried many others for a while, then wizards and warlocks got the supercharge that ALL mages needed, and were promised was coming, which snowballed into a full combat revamp that has stretched on for moths. </P> <P>Since the sorceror juice up, i made a warlock, who is now level 38, and wokring wonderfully on almsot every aspect that my conjuror currently cant perform. Higher damage, a reliable root (Icey manacles not the perma root called Boney Grasp) that is more CC thena earth pet coudl ever hope to be, better stuns, better power granting ability, and better power buffing ability.</P> <P>I never realy wanted to play Warlock, but i like it, but i would love to play a WORKING conjuror class, and the reasion why im not level 50 conjuror now is i know it would have been a slow, unintertaining drudge to the level 50 peek. I want to be ensured that the class will get fixed, but im not going to roll up another conjuror under the same, crippling errors that the class currently has in hopes of being level 50 in less than 3 weeks to test every single spell (isnt that about when the devs said it would go on test or am i completely wrong?)</P> <P>If the devs dont provide a /testbuff or a "blue-frog" or some form of instant level-class choice to fully test all levels of spell continet, im going to be seriously, and for the first time, thinking about ending my account.</P> <P>I simply loved eq1 magician (but not enough to downgrade back into the eq1 setting), and im hoping once they get the conjuror and necro classes fixed, ill once again beable to love my class. I also simply loved enchanter in eq1, and, even though my enchanter in eq2 is only 17, i can allready tell that if they dont get some balancing love from the devs, i wont love them in this game either. I know it's a different game, but they can at least keep a few good things from eq1 (like the more versitile serching functions of bazaar window, which i think they are adding more advanced serching features soon finaly lol)</P> <P>I just wana test the spells and nothing more. I dont wana invest time in another no matter how fast the exp gain on the test server is. I wana play my character on live with my firends and my guild, and i want to ensure to the best of my ability that the spell revamp is a success. If SOE doesnt allow me to test my classes by copying or by /testbuff, and i play my conjuror to level 50, only to personaly find a game altering bug, i will instantly cancle my account and move on to a new game, and i dont want to have to do that.</P> <P>I only pray that the devs have enough sence to do a /testbuff or /copy, beacuse if they dont, i predict a world of errors coming down de' tube.</P> <P>Toodles!</P></DIV>

[Heiro]

<P>in regards to gear on test....</P> <P> </P> <P>I know a number of people who would fall into the "high end" raiding category, and I know the gear that they have...</P> <P> </P> <P>I cant speak for everyone, but there are ebon suits out there, there are Fabled items being worn, there are masters being used, there are adept 3's being used.</P> <P>There is not an abundance of Fabled, Master, Rare  items on the broker ... and for a very good reason.  </P> <P>Our community is very close knit.. someone gets a master they dont need, 90% of the time its given to someone who can use and will use.</P> <P>Fabled gear is not sold, its worn or given to those who can wear.</P> <P>Rares are not sold.. they are used, traded, given away.</P> <P> </P> <P>With that kind of comradarie existing on our server, you probably wont be offered or given the items you need at first,  you would first have to establish yourself as a "Test Resident" not just a visitor.</P> <P>There is seldom a free handout to people that no one knows... however there are periodic swap meets / meet & Greets  where more stuff is given away or traded rather than sold.  I personally have given away 3 masters, and numerous rares ... and have been given numerous rares in return (templar masters are few and far between).  </P> <P>With our playerbase of 100-200 online  with maybe 10 -15 harvesting .. the broker will not look anything like a Live server with Harvest bots - farm bots - and 50-60 people harvesting  for profit.</P> <P> </P> <P>People who rely on the broker to outfit your characters, will seldom find what they need.. .. that aspect of the Live servers hasnt completely x-fer'd over.</P> <P>But people who are involved in the server community, know where to go for armor, weapons, spells, jewellery.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>My equipment at this stage (49 Templar) consists of : </P> <P>Ebon Imbued BP , Leggs.</P> <P>Ebon Spaulders, </P> <P>Cedar imbued Buckler</P> <P>Cedar imbued wand</P> <P>All Adept 1-3 spells</P> <P>Jewellery is either stat based  or T5 crafted / imbued -*rubies in vault when I finally decide*</P> <P> </P> <P>This is not a brag.. I know of people in Full Ebon with full Adept 3/Master spells and Ruby/Rhodium jewellery ..So the whole  unable to equip yourself reasoning is not fully accurate.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>and in closing  Eyes_of_Truth... Thnx fer playing.. dont want yer stuff.. more bandwith for those of us Testing</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Typical comment i woudl expect coming from testing player base people.</P> <P>"and in closing  Eyes_of_Truth... Thnx fer playing.. dont want yer stuff.. more bandwith for those of us Testing"</P> <P>Please define this for me? What stuff?</P> <P>please, if your going to reply to me at least actually say..something..thats...um.. more specific than "stuff"</P> <P>If all your bug reports are like that, then that would explain a few things lol....</P> <P>"/bug um..this like..thinggy...isnt working...yeh, it's like totaly not doing stuff, please fix asap ...it's a real game braker that affects tons of ...stuff"</P> <P>lol jk with that, but realy, the only thing i can imagine "stuff" to mean in your comment is one of 2 things:</P> <P>1 ) my ideas and opinions</P> <P>2 ) my 3 day dev run skill testing session</P> <P>Which is it? Im not a mind reader, even if i have a 17 enchanter (not that it matters)</P> <P>and if it is #2, please reply as to why you dont want a dev run testing on the combat abilities?</P> <P>What ever you do, non of this idiotic "stuff" babble. Use real words and voice your opinions or else they have no worth to anyone. </P> <P>"The unspoken word returns no will in the matter at hand" - unknown</P> <P>Toodles!</P> <p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:20 AM</span>

[alykat4]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<div></div> <p>Typical comment i woudl expect coming from testing player base people.</p> <p>"and in closing  Eyes_of_Truth... Thnx fer playing.. dont want yer stuff.. more bandwith for those of us Testing"</p> <p>Please define this for me? What stuff?</p> <p>please, if your going to reply to me at least actually say..something..thats...um.. more specific than "stuff"</p> <p>If all your bug reports are like that, then that would explain a few things lol....</p> <p>"/bug um..this like..thinggy...isnt working...yeh, it's like totaly not doing stuff, please fix asap ...it's a real game braker that affects tons of ...stuff"</p> <p>lol jk with that, but realy, the only thing i can imagine "stuff" to mean in your comment is one of 2 things:</p> <p>1 ) my ideas and opinions</p> <p>2 ) my 3 day dev run skill testing session</p> <p>Which is it? Im not a mind reader, even if i have a 17 enchanter (not that it matters)</p> <p>and if it is #2, please reply as to why you dont want a dev run testing on the combat abilities?</p> <p>What ever you do, non of this idiotic "stuff" babble. Use real words and voice your opinions or else they have no worth to anyone. </p> <p>"The unspoken word returns no will in the matter at hand" - unknown</p> <p>Toodles!</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class="date_text">07-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:20 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>you've played Sony games how long now and you don't know what "stuff" is?? "don't want your stuff",  translated means "buh bye...see ya later...don't let the door hit ya" . it is derived from the many whiners who have stomped off in a huff, leaving the game, but HAVING to spew why, in their opinion, the game is messed up. someone, not really caring,  replies "can i have your stuff?" pretty old school /shrug</span><div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Im not whining.</P> <P>I...</P> <P>want...</P> <P>to...</P> <P>test..</P> <P>the..</P> <P>combat...</P> <P>change...</P> <P>without...</P> <P>rerolling...</P> <P>and ...</P> <P>trying..</P> <P>hopelessly...</P> <P>to...</P> <P>get...</P> <P>to..</P> <P>level 50...</P> <P>in..</P> <P>1-3...</P> <P>weeks.</P> <P>That is as simple as i can possibly put it, i want a /levelbuff to properly test a dev suppervised trial sesion for about 3-5 days how ever long it takes, then the test server can be reverted back to it's saved data and repatched with the properly tested and fixed Ca/spell abilities so it doesnt go live without being tested on every tier.</P> <P>I simply dont want to find any error in my class that is to be considered a bug in the tier1-5 (and soon to be 6), and unless you can promis me their is a level 10 20 30 40 and 50 mage>summoner> conjuror on test to tests each tier for me, then i and many other conjurors or any other class without enough varietly of levels to test all teirs of the abilitiy changes, will be highly upset with the devs and (to a small extent) the testing community for not properly doing your duties.</P> <P>If there is a conjuror testing each tier, then im satisfied. Then every spell can properly be tested. If there is a single level 50 conjuror on test, in theory he can test everything by mentoring down, but i dont know of any levle 50 conjurors on test unless some moved there in the last 2-3 weeks. </P> <P>If their is a gap anywhere in the tier1-5 that doesnt have a conjuror to test the changes, then a /testbuff needs to be implemented, simple as that.</P> <P>Im not whining, I just want to test out the skills, make sure they are in working order, then go back to live and await the patch. </P> <P>I love your commraderismn as a close nit server, and i dont want to intrude, but i dont want to join it either, as i said, i have my own guild filled with my RL and game friends that i wouldnt trade for anything, just as you wouldnt trade your testing family for anything. I just want a small time pieriod to beable to do my testing and then never bother you guys again.</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Fire&ice]

<DIV>Eyes, I just have to ask, if you want to Test with your character then why are you worried about getting one to lvl 50...it would take no time at all to have a character in the late 20's early 30's which, if I remember right, is where you have a conjuror...correct? Testing with you character would only set you at that lvl to begin with. Anyway not trying to be evil or anything. Either way I still refer to those above me while there are great ideas about how things could or even should be done, we all agree on that it is not how SoE is doing things at this time :smileytongue: Just try and enjoy your time! (best advice I can give :smileyvery-happy: )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Ty for an upbeat and rather possitive reply :smileywink:</P> <P>But heres the deal. Only reasion i stoped leveling my conjuror 2 months into the game is i realized i wasnt having fun drudging up the exp ladder, i wasnt wanted in groups for my non-existant damage, nor my extramly sub par aggro and tanking aiblity of my adept3 soldier. I felt like my class didnt (and untill damage is in the correct level) wont have a use ina  group. So i threw on the brakes and made a new character with a role (warlock) that could be met adequitly.</P> <P>It felt like forever trying to level my conjuror to 28, and , the combat atleast, was not fun. The fun people and guild i met was a good product of that time though so it wasnt all bad, but the combat for me was so terribly long and i felt like i wasnt truely contributing to a group. Enchanters could atleast mess if they arnt adding much damage (which at the time when people we still geting usto the game) messing was good and saved many begginer groups. But now that people are more knwoledgeable, messing is rarely used unless absolutly needed as it cuts down on AOE damage. So then i noticed enchanter was in the same boat as enchanter, but they atleast had an oar (breeze) to rely on, but conjuror? a 8 second stun and group proc is about it. I dont want to use my earth pet in a group, it's enneffective. I was the classic conj/necro who was all hyped about getting the level 20 dps pet "boy, ill finaly beable to hold my own!"</P> <P>Oh how wrong i was and contunue to be for about 8 months now :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>I dont care how fast level on test is, and i know it's fast as all getout now because my templar Holypowa made 2 levels in a shot while durring the harclave trial with the double exp and vitality, but that is differnet becuase that was my first cleric, and their combat is decient and works. My templar can probly easily outdamage my conjuror at level 21.</P> <P>I dont want to have to struggle the same dull 28 levels again just to test where im currently at.</P> <P>And the reasion i wanted a levle 50 conjuror on test? that the only way to look at every single spell we have. 2 months fromnow i dont wana get to the level 45-50 area and find broken skills and spells because this didnt get tested. Thats the reasion the devs will probly have to implement a /testbuff, unless there are some hidden level 50 conjurors on test that i have never seen or herd about, and a level 50 for every sub-class.</P> <P>Basicaly what im getting at, is if their is not a maxed level character in each sub class by the time testing for the Revamp comes around, not all of the conteint will be fully tested, and will end up just being thrown on the live servers to then have the /bugs litterarly worked out of it insted of in test, where they should test it.</P> <P>But hey, if the devs want to save themselves the hassle of doing a /test buff and just use all their live servers as temporary 4 day testing pieriod servers (saving all data on each then rebooting saved data 4 days later, and make the changes to spells/ca in test that were found in the 4 day pieriod, then patch it into the live servers) that works too....</P> <P>To me it just seems logical to try to get as many bugs out of the system in test, and to do that, they would needs devs each taking out groups of people, puting these people at what ever level/tier they need testing, and geting some hard data and player feedback directly. then reboot Testserver to the saved data after the few days of testing, which would wipe any new additions of characters and crap from the server and test could preceed as normal.</P> <DIV>If you can find an alternative to this i would realy liek to here it. And i mean that ina good way :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[retro_guy]

<DIV>I was under the impression the Test got wiped every few months and that you really couldn't play the game as such on it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's the point in building up a character and trying to improve yourself if you lose it all?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What happens to the guild you've built up?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the savings youve made?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the pets you have?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's why I've never considered playing on Test.</DIV><p>Message Edited by retro_guy on <span class=date_text>07-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:33 PM</span>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>retro_guy wrote:<div>I was under the impression the Test got wiped every few months and that you really couldn't play the game as such on it.</div> <div> </div> <div>What's the point in building up a character and trying to improve yourself if you loose it all?</div> <div> </div> <div>What happens to the guild you've built up?</div> <div> </div> <div>All the savings youve made?</div> <div> </div> <div>All the pets you have?</div> <div> </div> <div>That's why I've never considered playing on Test.</div><hr></blockquote> That's a completely false impression.  The toon I started in the third week of February is now a level 45 Assassin, level 27 Tailor, with a house full of junk.  Including a duck.  He is named Dopple and goes quack, quack, quack. (Don't mind me, I'm up very late.) Anyway, as it said waaay back on the first page of this monstrous thread I thought for sure would have died by now, they have no intention of wiping Test ever, which in my head means that yes, it's still a risk, but a very small one -- they won't wipe unless, I imagine, several things go [Removed for Content] for a very long time.</span><div></div>

[Edowen]

<P>Test doesn't get wiped on any regular basis, or at all.</P> <P>Think of Test as a kind of a server in miniature, with players at all levels doing the same things that players do on any server - except we spend a bunch of time poking at bugs and reporting them, and occasionally help out QA or the the devs by putting aside normal play and doing specific things or participating in play tests.  Heck, tonight I got summoned to IoR to help out a QA guy by checking to see if a particular bug would happen.  (My guildies were pretty surprised to see a member on IoR! :smileytongue:  )  Basically, the only way to test all aspects of the game is to play all aspects of the game at every level fairly much the same way that play takes place on any server.  That is what happens on Test.  The only thing that we can't do there is mount a large high-end raid.  While we have a growing number of level 50's on the server, we just are not quite there yet.</P> <P>If SoE were to wipe us, we would not be able to do all the testing that we do.  Letting people /testbuff to level 50 simply is not as thorough as having people at all levels testing the code.  Also, focussing activities only on new content is also apt to miss the things that can get broken in the old code, stuff nobody expected would be changed or would break.  So, SoE does not wipe Test nor does it intend to do that.  It is in their interest for there to be a stable ongoing community on Test.  SoE knows that, and generally does try to be nice to the folks on Test.</P> <P>Come on over, roll up a toon, /join Test, and say hello!</P> <P>Edowen</P> <P>P.S. Test is not for everyone.  Some folks really like it a lot, but of course that will not be true for all.</P> <p>Message Edited by Edowen on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 AM</span>

[CorvitusE]

Hi, I am going to join the test server. Any friendly guilds on here willing to take me in? Just looking for some people to hang with. <div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CorvitusEQ2 wrote:<BR>Hi,<BR><BR>I am going to join the test server.<BR><BR>Any friendly guilds on here willing to take me in? Just looking for some people to hang with.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Guilds on Test tend to wait until toons get near 20, simply because so many people come and go in the early levels.  That said, /join Test when you play, act friendly, and you'll find there are always people to hang with, guild or not.</DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

Hehe, i love the dedicated test community, but i still need factualy data showing that there are atleast 24 level 50's, one of each subclass, or not every single spell can be tested without the devs implementing something. Please provided a list of known level 50 test characters and their sub-class please. Plain and simple, if their isnt a being to physicaly test it, then they need to add a way for other beings to beable to fill this gap, ala /testbuff or temporary copy. If you have a better solution i would love to here it, i dont want test community ruined, but i do want every single spell in this game to be looked at by a player's perspective. Toodles! <div></div>

[Heiro]

<DIV>What you "need" and what you "want" are not interchangeable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You may want<FONT color=#ffff00> factualy data showing that there are atleast 24 level 50's, one of each subclass, or not every single spell can be tested without the devs implementing something.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>And while I can understand your desire to ensure that all the spells are tested and verified... I have to wonder if you really are all that concerned with that, or if you are simply grabbing at straws, trying to find justification for your whole  /testbuff  or copy reasoning.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a person were truly concerned with testing the content of the game, both high and low end. and were willing to do what needs to be done to test that.. then they would have been working on it for a while now.  Seems to me more like a "I want to see what changes will effect my character" issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally did a X-Fer from the live servers,  I know a number of other people who have done the X-Fer from live.. and have leveled up , reported bugs, tested content and got issues fixed that Live never even saw.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know people who play exclusively on test, with multiple lvl 50s ... testing content, reporting issues, providing feedback.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No need for the test buff, no need for the characters to be copied with abandon , no need for an influx of temporary testers doing a half [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] job testing things that will affect them, then disappearing when some serious issues arise and need to be worked out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anything else I would say has been repeated and will be ignored by people who are dead set on wanting the /testbuf, copies. blue frog, temporary test environment.   and if I wasnt stuck at work,  I wouldnt even be wasting my time posting in response to this drivel...  as it is .. it gives me great enjoyment to read these type of posts, and realize that my job dealing with idiots isnt as bad as it could be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gorkk00]

<span><blockquote><hr>Heiro wrote:<div>What you "need" and what you "want" are not interchangeable.</div> <div> </div> <div>You may want<font color="#ffff00"> factualy data showing that there are atleast 24 level 50's, one of each subclass, or not every single spell can be tested without the devs implementing something.</font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00"></font> </div> <div><font color="#ffffff">And while I can understand your desire to ensure that all the spells are tested and verified... I have to wonder if you really are all that concerned with that, or if you are simply grabbing at straws, trying to find justification for your whole  /testbuff  or copy reasoning.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>If a person were truly concerned with testing the content of the game, both high and low end. and were willing to do what needs to be done to test that.. then they would have been working on it for a while now.  Seems to me more like a "I want to see what changes will effect my character" issue.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>Oh, so what you are saying is: "if you wanted to ensure that the huge revamp of the game you pay to play now will be really tested at all player range, you'll have started a toon 6 months ago over there (before the announce of the revamp) and grinded all 24 subclasses to level 50 in order to test it?". In the current state of test community, there is not an active character of each class at level 50 (at least at my knowledge), and most high level test players are playing on test for a while now. So simply, it's impossible that the revamp and balance is fully tested on test server. Lost of people who are now waiting this revamp and balance for month now would love to take 4-5 days to test intensively those changes at every level range, if it was possible. Why don't they have a toon on test they grinded to level 50? Because for most people it's not worth it given the time it takes. Still they want to help that the game they play and that will be revamped totaly is, this time, fully balanced with properly working spells and ability. And they know that the necessary testing can't be done by the current test community (no offense here), because there is not a level 50 player of each class to test all these spells. How can you ensure that enchanter's or conjuror's level 50 spells work properly, and that these classes are well balanced with others even at level 50 if you don't have at least one of these char at level 50? You can't. I don't always agree with Eyes posts, but here you just prove with your comment that you hadn't really read what he wrote: what he asked for was a period of time like 4-5 days with /levelbump or character copy to test (or another temp server) for the testing of combat changes being fully done, with reseting the test server to its prior state after this short period (would not be needed if on a temp server). He didn't asked for a permanent /levelbump or character copy. He added that if you could ensure him that there was on test at least one level 50 character of each subclass (and i would add, actively played), then he will be ok, confident that the testing can be done fully. If (and it's likely) this is not the case, then something has to be done to test fully the combat changes, and you did not suggest any other solution, just stating arbitrarily that Eyes motivation what just to see what will change wis his toon and how he could exploit it, and plaid for a permanent /levelbump or character copy to test. If you have any other solution to allow full testing of combat changes on test, please tell, maybe Eyes' suggestion is not the best, but 'till now it's the best and best argumented one. All you guys say about that is "it's not good". It doesn't help alot nor make your point you know?</span><div></div>

[Daffid011]

Blue frog/test buff has been tried and it didn't work: see SWG combat upgrade for a failed effort there.  So his "idea" really isn't that revolutionary or good to be honest.  It does however best suit his desire to preview his character at high levels without all the effort. Even the thought that something this large could be tested in 4-5 days is nonsense enough to not read his whole post.  Also, we are not here to cater to your demands of posting bugs, player lists or meet your desires for any gurentees. <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Ok. I dont care any more.</P> <P>You test it.</P> <P>You get to level 50 pronto.</P> <P>Test. Every. Spell.</P> <P>Every spell form levels 3-50 on every class.</P> <P>Get out every kink.</P> <P>Fine ok, you want it  to obviously be a testing thats closed to anyone who doesnt regularly play on test. Fine. </P> <P>You better do a dang good job then, becuase if you dont, you prove to the einter eq2 playerbase that we can nolonger have a test server that also functions as a normal server.</P> <P>If you manage to get every little bad glitch or error out, then kudoes! You will have greatly surrpassed my expectations and i will be thrilled! Then the test.Community server is a smashing success and you should all get a free month of play time! I will be very very happy.</P> <P>but if you dont, you would further prove my point that a /testbuff that is under the full control of a devoloper supervising the live testing sessions would have been a more successfull route.</P> <P>Im though with arguing, so now im just gona sit on the sidelines and watch. If you perform well, all is good. If you perform poorly, then all i can says is a pointless "told yea so" more or less... not that that would matter, you would still find some exuse such as "well, we cant find them all you know" type response.</P> <P>I know it's impossible to find every glitch, but more people being at the level the developers wish to test, would provide many more eyes for which to spot errors. And yes, your eyes will probly be better adjusted to finding these small things, but there will allways be a untrained person that might notice something and raise a question about it, then upon further examination, you expert testers could then properly explain this glitch to the dev.</P> <P>The thing that disaponts me with most replies on this subject, is testers think that people on live servers are illterate people only seeking self-gratification, who lack the ability to /bug a proper report. That is an assumption that is very loosely based.</P> <P>Im truely and 100% honest when i say that im not trying to simply /testbuff myself to level 50 to simply get that oh so "uber" feeling. But, i know that if their is no level 50 in each sub-class, then there are skills going untested by the playerbase, and i dont want that to happen.</P> <P><FONT size=4>But all that aside, here is my main reasion with another idea for thoughs who are against /testbuff and /copy:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>I want the dev's to do this one smart so they can deliver a good revamp with very minimal flaws, and to do that, they are gona have to do constant testing with the cooperation of theplayers on the test server.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>Another way to allow level 50 temporary test characters that the devs can specificaly moniter, would be to , on a tell by tell basis, give 24 players on test server an accountname and PW to access a level 50 character of each subclass, with silly names like "Test_conjuror" or someting simular.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>These 24 people could then be mentored down to test skills at lower tiers. The devs could interview potiential testers to find the 24 that they want to use.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>Allow all people in test to have the full spell revamp changes on them, while these 24 dev created but player controlled sub-classes are tested along beside the dev team, trying different levels by mentoring and such.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>Does that sound like a good way to test? Devs would have full controll over these 24 carefully selected individuals, and if one of them got out of line, they could simply restart that loaned test account and change the PW and select someone else.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>All the spells from 3-50 would have a chance to be tested, and thats what i want.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>Toodles!</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 PM</span>

[Xod]

<div></div>Ive just started a char on test to see what all the fuss is about.. And its a BLAST. Sure, the population is low and the economy almost non-existent, but it is worth it to get a first hand view of what is going to be added to the game! The lack of obnixious twits is a bonus as well.  Come give it a shot!<span> :smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>I have a test character already, 21 templar named Holypowa. They are a great bunch of guys on test, but i still cant leave my guild (which inclusdes multiple realife friends and aquantances)</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

[Fire&ice]

<DIV>Eyes, so you at least know, I will be out and testing all the fun stuff they throw at us with my 7 different characters (lvl range from 12 to 45). Yes I know that isn't all of the different subclasses out there, but I have a Mystic, Wizard, Conjuror, Warlock, Warden, SK, and Monk. At least I will see some of the vareity and how things work for different calsses in the very least. As said above Test is great fun! When they do finally bring about putting the combat changes back out there, again, I will be out with my "Alt Army" (my guild thinks that is hilarious...so many characters, so little time!) and having fun testing what they have done. Until then I will be out there having fun with the changes they are making in other areas and enjoying time with my guildies and other Testers :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<div></div> <div></div> (1) Fine ok, you want it  to obviously be a testing thats closed to anyone who doesnt regularly play on test. Fine. <p>(2) You better do a dang good job then, becuase if you dont, you prove to the einter eq2 playerbase that we can nolonger have a test server that also functions as a normal server.</p><p>(3) but if you dont, you would further prove my point that a /testbuff that is under the full control of a devoloper supervising the live testing sessions would have been a more successfull route.</p> <p>(4) Im though with arguing, so now im just gona sit on the sidelines and watch. If you perform well, all is good. If you perform poorly, then all i can says is a pointless "told yea so" more or less... not that that would matter, you would still find some exuse such as "well, we cant find them all you know" type response.</p><p>(5) The thing that disaponts me with most replies on this subject, is testers think that people on live servers are illterate people only seeking self-gratification, who lack the ability to /bug a proper report. That is an assumption that is very loosely based.</p><hr></blockquote>1) Copied characters and a living community have not coexisted in the past and I can show you examples.  So yes I am against it unless you can PROVE that it will somehow work for the better.  Most people on test would tell you that we would love more people to come play here, but not people to tour.  2) No it will prove nothing.  It isn't a secret that test could use more people so you really have no point.  There is a reason why the server was set up to mimic a live server... think about that. 3) Don't go all "im taking my ball and going home" just because I showed you an example of where your testbuff theory FAILED miserably, in a sony product to boot.  It did not do what you want to think it did.  That is the fact no matter how many times you scream that it will.  Again, show some facts about what it will do and how it will go about it differenly than SWG did and maybe you might have a point.   That would be a step in the right direction of showing why testbuff or something would help.  Criticizing the current testers does not make your theory valid. 4) Don't sit on the sidelines and judge people who are doing a job you refuse to do.  Simple as that mate.  Don't sit on the sidelines and throw stones. 5) There are plenty of great people on live, but there are plenty of noisemakers too.  It is those noisemakers who will most likely drown out any constructive help that comes from your copy process.  For example, just read the "request from the devs" forum and look how many people give feedback on testing subjects that have not even seen them yet. Cheers,</span><div></div>

[Gorkk00]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Daffid011 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:(1) Fine ok, you want it  to obviously be a testing thats closed to anyone who doesnt regularly play on test. Fine.<p>(2) You better do a dang good job then, becuase if you dont, you prove to the einter eq2 playerbase that we can nolonger have a test server that also functions as a normal server.</p><p>(3) but if you dont, you would further prove my point that a /testbuff that is under the full control of a devoloper supervising the live testing sessions would have been a more successfull route.</p><p>(4) Im though with arguing, so now im just gona sit on the sidelines and watch. If you perform well, all is good. If you perform poorly, then all i can says is a pointless "told yea so" more or less... not that that would matter, you would still find some exuse such as "well, we cant find them all you know" type response.</p><p>(5) The thing that disaponts me with most replies on this subject, is testers think that people on live servers are illterate people only seeking self-gratification, who lack the ability to /bug a proper report. That is an assumption that is very loosely based.</p><hr></blockquote>1) Copied characters and a living community have not coexisted in the past and I can show you examples.  So yes I am against it unless you can PROVE that it will somehow work for the better.  Most people on test would tell you that we would love more people to come play here, but not people to tour. 2) No it will prove nothing.  It isn't a secret that test could use more people so you really have no point.  There is a reason why the server was set up to mimic a live server... think about that.3) Don't go all "im taking my ball and going home" just because I showed you an example of where your testbuff theory FAILED miserably, in a sony product to boot.  It did not do what you want to think it did.  That is the fact no matter how many times you scream that it will.  Again, show some facts about what it will do and how it will go about it differenly than SWG did and maybe you might have a point.   That would be a step in the right direction of showing why testbuff or something would help.  Criticizing the current testers does not make your theory valid.4) Don't sit on the sidelines and judge people who are doing a job you refuse to do.  Simple as that mate.  Don't sit on the sidelines and throw stones.5) There are plenty of great people on live, but there are plenty of noisemakers too.  It is those noisemakers who will most likely drown out any constructive help that comes from your copy process.  For example, just read the "request from the devs" forum and look how many people give feedback on testing subjects that have not even seen them yet.Cheers,</span><hr></blockquote>1-2) Once again you really seem not to be willing to understand what Eyes suggests. It has nothing to do with permanently allow character copy or /testbuff. Nor with making copied characters and a living community. It only have to do with, "for a limited period of time and under devs' control, allow people on test to /testbuff their character in order to test every single spell in the game, and then, at the end of this period, reset the server prior to the testing session" (and as i outlined it before, it'll be even more simple with a dedicated temporary server for this test session). Other solution suggested by Eyes is having devs select some people on test and have them test level 50 characters specialy made for the occasion to test every single spell from any class.3) Basicaly, you say "we don't need you non dedicated testers", and at the same time "we're not enough on test". Most people don't want to pay to permanently test a game, you know? Your only answer to different suggestions made to allow a full testing of the spell revamp is "it won't work", and you give an example which has nothing to do with the proposal. You say 4-5 days won't be enough? What allows you to say that? Nothing, you just say it. Maybe it's true, and it's definitely true if it's done by the current low population on test that doesn't have a level 50 char in each class, cause at least one level 50 char in each class is needed to fully test that. The message you convay in your post is "we need don't need you live players to test the game". That means you pretend that you on test can fully test this revamp. So if you fail to do it, it'll indeed prove that this was not sufficient to test this revamp and that something has to be changed about the testing process. As for the facts he outlined them, and he outlined how it would be different from the permanent /testbuff of SWG, but you don't seem to be willing to understand.4) oh, that's a job? Are you paid for it? No you pay to do it... If as you say it it is a job, then if it's not properly done, you're responsible of it and that means you did it wrong. It's not because somebody don't want to do a particular job he can't say if the job is well done or not. Do you want to clean the streets in your city? Probably not. Does this mean you can't say that the job is not done well if there is garbage in the streets? It doesn't. That doesn't necessarily that people doing the job are bad, it can be simply that there is not enough people doing it, or that methods using to do the job are not good enough. But if people doing the job claim they can do it well, and they don't do it well, then it's normal that people complain about it.</span><span><span>5) There are plenty of great people on test, but there are plenty of noisemakers too.  It is those noisemakers who most likely keep the test server population low and prevent any amelioration in the test process.Concerning, the "request from the devs" forum: in this particular section I haven't seen that much posts of non testers. In In Testing >> Feedback section, however, there is lots of non testers posting. And yes people that don't play on test give their concern about this or that. Is that wrong? You pretend it is, but it's not. Yeah they have not test the actual effects of the features, but, expressing their concern about the concept of the feature as a paying customer give devs important information on what the community want, and gives testers ideas about what they need to test with the feature. The more people there is giving their opinion about a feature's concept and possible exploits, the more chance you have to end with a well thought concept that will only need technical testing. And looking at Moorguard and Blackguard comments on some of these threads where people non testing give their feedback for test features, it seems that they appreciate people non testing still giving their thoughts about changes...</span></span><span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<p>At any rate, please keep the comments coming so that we can continue to review the pros and cons of this potential change.</p><hr></blockquote></span><span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:<p>Thanks for the feedback, everyone. After some discussion and investigation, we've decided to try out the following: We're increasing the maximum number of active quests you can have to 75 from 50. If this proves to hinder performance noticeably, it may be changed back, but we're listening. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr> </blockquote>[Edit] @Fire&Ice: Yes you have an army of alts and will be able to test several classes, and that's good that one people can test several classes to actually compare them and see if they're well balanced. Still, as you said, they are between level 12 and 45, so you won't test leel 45-50 spells on any of them, and will be able to test the balancing between all of them only up to level 12, then the balancing between 6 of them up to the level of your second lower one, and then only test your particular char for level 45 range. That's good but unfortunately not enough to allow a good testing of the revamp and have a revamp with not too many errors. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorkk00 on <span class=date_text>07-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 PM</span>

[Daffid011]

To respond to you Gork00 1)  I understand all to well what eyes is suggesting.  I've seen it first hand and the results of it.  Can you say the same?   Not to mention all the EXTRA work that would be involved to set up this testing atmosphere and whatever new bugs that could introduce into the process.  It isn't just as simple as clicking a copy button it will take developers time and efforts.  All that aside, neither of you has shown how it will help other than "more is better so copies will help" which has not been the case in past examples of testing.  Why is that so hard to understand? 3) Permanent or temporary /testbuff it does not change a thing.  SWG has /testbuff for a combat revamp, longer than eyes "temporary" suggestion and it didn't produce the fully tested patch that you both suggest.  That is a fact and it share all the same properties here, so yes I can feel sure about saying it would not work.  Will we be able to fully test the patch, I don't know as ive not seen it, but stop focusing on the level 50 aspect.  There are 49 other levels that need just as much attention.  However, for the record im pretty sure there is one of each class at level 50 on test, satisfied? 4) Your playing semantics with the word job, stuff it already.  We have ZERO control over what gets patched, fixed or even balanced.  10,000 copies wouldn't have any more power than we do. 5) Yes it is wrong for those people to post in the request from the devs forum.  Read the freakin first post by the dev and it states they want TESTER feedback and direct everyone else to post in another forum.  It can't be any clearer.  <div></div>

[Fire&ice]

<DIV>Gork that is not to say that between now and the changes being brought back to Test that I won't have a lvl 50 /shrug.  Yes I won't have 24 lvl 50's because I can't play 24/7 (I have a life and a job so some time is taken up) :smileytongue: . However I do know quite a few people on Test that have lvl 50 toons even 1 who has 2 or 3 lvl 50 toons (yes he is nuts!) so I know that things will be tried, tested, and either feedback or bugged. If you don't want to make a toon over on Test, don't. However as Dafid has noted before they have tried and shown that /testbuff, bluefrog, and copies have not worked in the past and SOE has already stated they won't be doing that here. Either way no matter what happens Live will never know just exactly what we have caught and if we missed anything because it was said before and (/sigh) I will repeat those before me...Test does /bug alot of things however that doesn't mean they actually get changed right away because the Devs don't see them as being as important as other things that are out there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh well either way people will complain :smileywink: so back to the grind I! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Ruben]

<P>I have started a couple characters on test but really havent played them as much as I like due to my commitment to the guild I am a senior officer in.</P> <P>But I would like to say that I have the utmost respect for people who primarily play on the test server. It has always seemed that it takes a special type of person to put themselves in the environment of not always knowing if something will work or not.</P> <P>Keep up the good work and know that some of us on live do appreciate the effort.</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Thanks Gorkk, That is exactly wha tim saying.</P> <P>Logic.</P> <P>If you dont have a level 50 of X class, then they are some spells, skills, and balanced issues that are not going to be tested.</P> <P>If that happens, the devs need to set in witha solution.</P> <P>If you have any sugested solutions for the devs, please post them.</P> <P>Currently, if there is no level 50 Paladin, Shadowknight, Guaridan, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser, Ranger, Assassin, Shashbuckler, Brigand, Dirge, Troubador, Wizard, Warlock, Conjuror, Necromancer, Illusionist, Coercer, Fury, Warden, Templar, Inquizator, Mystic, Defiler characters, then not every spell will get looked at, plain and simple.</P> <P>If dev's dont instate some temporary way to have 1 of each of these 24, then this won't a complete test.</P> <P>But if infact there is 1 of each of these 24 sub-classes currently level 50 on test that can test the high level spells, then i have no issues, because everything will get looked at atleast once by a player's perspecitve.</P> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[Gorkk00]

By the way, i logged my toon on test today (hadn't logged in for long - i had initialy planned to make another illusionist there to test chanters issues, but when i saw there was so few people on test, i realized it would be a pain to level him, as it's one of the worst if not the worst soloing class), and there has not been more than 100 people connected on the server all day long, and the highest enchanter i saw on was level 22... How do you think you'll be able to test balancing between classes and effects of spells in these conditons? You can be as talented as you want, it's simply impossible then, unless devs can find a solution. If you have a better one than those suggested here, please tell, all we want with Eyes is that the balancing and spell revamp is fully tested before going live, to avoid having 6 more months with broken spells and unbalanced classes. I don't care about how this full testing is achieved, and I bet Eyes doesn't either, so if you have a solution, please explain it, instead of just saying that what we suggest won't work (at least our solution has the benefit to make this testing possible, your lack of solution makes sure it would not be done...) <div></div>

[Heiro]

<P>Solution is this .. make a character on test and level him up ..If you dont care how long it takes to test the updates, log in, take the time to lvl, contribute to the full testing of the spells.. see if that lvl 10 mez scales from lvl 10 - 18,  see if that taunt you got at lvl 5 scales up to when yer lvl 10, etc etc etc.</P> <P> </P>

[Gorkk00]

<span><blockquote><hr>Heiro wrote: <p>Solution is this .. make a character on test and level him up ..If you dont care how long it takes to test the updates, log in, take the time to lvl, contribute to the full testing of the spells.. see if that lvl 10 mez scales from lvl 10 - 18,  see if that taunt you got at lvl 5 scales up to when yer lvl 10, etc etc etc.  </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>It's not a solution to ensure that the upcoming spell revamp and balance will be tested fully, as there is obviously not at least one character of each class at level 50 (at least actively playing), 'cause else i would certainely have seen some enchanters higher than level 22 on today, don't you think? If there is indeed at least one character of each class at level 50 (which i really doubt), so fine. You can't hope have a full testing if you have any enchanter higher than 25, right? Yes I could start an enchanter right now and level him... Well, even with xp bonus, it'll need at least 2 months if grinding fully to get level 50, given the low population on test. Then i should level another enchanter (to have illusionist and coercer at level 50), so say 4 months. Revamp is supposed to hit test soon. Do you want to have a testing session of 4 months? And even then chanter balancing will have been taken less into account that other classes, having been played at all level ranges for less long. It's fine to critisize others ideas, if you give some other ideas. Just saying it's wrong and won't work and not suggesting something 'better' will never help testing to be better.</span><div></div>

[Daffid011]

First, I'm not saying its wrong and will not work.  I am saying it's wrong because it did not work.  I don't need to offer any other suggestion to point out something like that.  However, the solution already exists, but it is closed to the general public.  <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Well...there is this thing about Tomas Edison and the light bulb.... about the first 1000 sand times it didnt work....does that mean the light bulb is a bad idea and should have been scraped?</P> <P>Saying that something hasnt worked in the past, on a diferent game, even if made by the same company, doesnt mean it wouldnt have a possitive effect on this particular game.</P> <P>But whats the point, you will still say something irrelevant, and dodge my request for a solution.</P> <P>Atleast i provided a solution, and even if it's not perfect <and it isnt perfect> at least i have provided a solution to not all the skills being able to be tested by the player base.</P> <DIV>Hell, I'm not even sure if the is a PROBLEM because noone has said yes or no to my question of :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Is there a level 50 of each sub-class on test?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the answer is "yes", then im waisting my time posting here trying to find a solution to a non-existant problem.</DIV> <DIV>If the answer is "no", then the developers need to find a way for players to test skills and spells from level 3-50, how ever they indend to accomplish this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

[Sirlutt]

<span><blockquote><hr>EtoilePB wrote:<div>I hate myself in advance for tossing myself bodily into the fray, but the question's been spinning in my head every time I read this board, and see all the people who inexplicably think my server is a waste of their time.</div> <div> </div> <div>I play Test exclusively, and I think it's a much more rewarding experience than the Live servers.  Frankly, I'm stunned by its low population!  Imagine playing on a server where people more or less watch out for each other, where guilds can cooperate (and compete, yes), and where the resources you need are always available.  Sounds good, yeah?  Add to it that when you're the first person to do something, you're the first person EVER to do something.  It feels amazing knowing no-one before you has ever seen this zone, examined this item, received this quest, or killed this mob.  It gives you a sense of accomplishment knowing you didn't use spoilers because there aren't any, and no-one has forged this path before you.  (Or in my case, to be honest, stealthed this path.)  </div> <div> </div> <div>Then on top of all that, there's working closely with SOE and knowing that what you do, say, and describe makes a speecific, tangible change on the game and on the experience for thousands of others!  We've been doing wave after wave of Splitpaw playtests, and it's fascinating to see the bugs, to make comments about loot tables and experience and see it all adjusted six hours later, and to watch things change and improve before our very eyes based on our discussions with QA and Devs.</div> <div> </div> <div>How can so many people think that's an experience not worth having?  Test is... exhilarating.  Unpredictable.  And a little weird.  And yeah, you never know when one day something's going to stop working unexpectedly, or when the griffon will want to play hummingbird, or when a solo mob will suddenly one-shot you, but the act of encountering and <strong>being part of the process to repair</strong> bugs and problems is grand.</div> <div> </div> <div>So why don't more people want to make a difference?  Low population will only get fixed one player at a time.  If everyone stays away because they think they can't get a group, how will there ever be groups?  (Which, for that matter, there are, and pretty often.  I haven't played more than a half hour solo in about two weeks, with all this SP testing.)</div> <div> </div> <div>Just my two cents.  But I think maybe if people ever gave Test a chance they'd be happier players and would enjoy their experiences more.</div><hr></blockquote>my #1 reason to not play test exclusively .. they wont allow character copies.. i'm not spending another 3-6 months leveling my character.. and i'm not moving him there and leaving my guild. i have a test char but until real testing is implemented..ie i have a test plan to follow and i'm actually testing something.. not just running around hoping my random playing happens upon a bug.. also add to that the fact that even if i find a bug.. and it gets fixed.. chances are good they screw up the code migration AGAIN and it makes it to live.. i used to think it was the testers fault.. not finding simple bugs.. but its not..its SOE cant run a development model if their life depended on it. i'd be fired if i sent bugs i found on a dev server inro production after it had been documented as fixed.</span><div></div>

[imakee]

To the person that posted he didn't see any high level mages:  I and quite a few others on the Test server go /anon almost the entire time.  Logging in at a random point of the day and do a /who all isn't concrete evidence. This whole issue of whether there is enough level 50's on Test is moot.  We have copies from Live (all high level and various classes), we have our home'grown 50s, and we have many dedicated players that upon hitting 50 go out and make a new alt to test with. We have controlled tests.  A dev or qa will send out a request for participants and we go through testing specific bugs. Do you know how fun it is to spend a good chunk of your day crashing zones because you are trying to create a large raiding force? Or how about farming greys of all tiers to insure that every writ item can actually be turned in for status (btw one item is broken and cannot be turned in to the appropriate writ giver).  We also find bugs from just normal play.  A lot of bugs are found from normal play so don't knock it. =) I am not going to say whether you should play on Test or not. I love Test. It is a home for me. But I take testing seriously because I want to make the game better.  I do not see open copying as a solution to the low population. I feel that letting others know about our experiences on Test (the good the bad and the ugly) will encourage the right people to give it a shot. Just the other day someone read this thread and decided to make a test character.  They contacted a poster from this thread about thier post and it made the poster so happy that she ran out and made the new character crafted armor.  So I have to say that I am glad this thread was started even considering how parts of it have strayed from the point. Keep testing ~ <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>But can you produce concreat evidence of a level 50 in every one of the 24 sub-classes?</P> <DIV>I need evidence, untill i see a list or a dev come on and say or prove there is an adequit ammount of people currently on the test server to test each skill/spell from from level 3-50, then im still concerned as to how a dev will counter this, or wil they simply let some skills go live without checking them?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: you never gave an alternative solution if infact their is a class that is missing a level 50 at the time of the testing, still waiting for a good alternative to my 3 ideas.</DIV>

[Daffid011]

<div></div>Thomas Edison didn't try to make the lightbulb the same way every time.  He modified each different attempt so that the results would not be the same as the last failure.  That is where you fall short.  Show how your copy idea is any different than previous failed attempts or just go back to the sidelines. The devs already do character copies as they need them and as they see fit.  Just because you are not part of the solution and the devs don't stop to give you personal updates, doesn't mean it is not viable, doesn't exist or needs to be personally explained to you. You may know resume your seat on the sidelines. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Daffid011 on <span class=date_text>07-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:48 AM</span>

[Edowen]

This poor old dead horse has been beaten so badly it probably can't even be used for pet food at this point.<SPAN>:smileysad:</SPAN><BR><BR>Eyes, clearly you mean well, but there is one thing that is missing from this conversation.  That is the fact that what happens on Test is not the only testing that is or can be performed before code goes live.  SoE also has internal servers that they use for testing.  They have said so many times.  There is no doubt that SoE can do exactly the kind of "point" testing that you describe if they feel it would help them deliver a better product.   On Test you can sometimes see QA folks transform themselves from class to class or level to level.  Certainly they can do the same thing on their internal servers.  If someone in SoE felt it would be a good idea for Palladius (or someone else from QA) to test each and every spell that belongs to a certain class to see if it did what it was supposed to do, at every level, Palladius could do that, without the need for a single player's toon to be copied to Test.<BR><BR>I do not work for SoE (or anyone these days, for that matter) so I cannot know exactly what type or amount of testing SoE does internally.  However it is probably fair to say that they do what they think they need to do, and that from SoE's view, the purpose of the Test server is to have a population of players who will exercise the code in ways that are similar to what would happen on any Live server, but may not be what SoE had anticipated.  That's the thing, you know.  Software is developed with the expectation that it will be used in certain ways.  You can test software based on that, but that testing will not be sufficient.  It is almost inevitable that users will do things that developers did not anticipate.  A server like Test allows that to happen before code goes Live.  That is the true value of Test to SoE, and something that they could never do well internally, themselves.  It is true that we catch plenty of errors on Test that are the kind of error that SoE could catch internally.  That's also to be expected.  While it is technically feasible for SoE to do exhaustive testing on their internal servers, in the normal case it probably is more cost and time effective for them to test internally only up to a point, and to let Test catch bugs after that.<BR><BR>One more thing to remember is that just because someone reports a bug does not mean that SoE automatically believes the report.  How could they?  Some people are good at noticing things and accurately and thoroughly describing bugs, some people are not.  (No doubt it is also the case that some players make up fake bug reports.  It's inevitable with so many players.)  So, as we have been told, SoE maintains two databases of bug reports.  One is all the reports they get.  The other is all the reports that they have verified and been able to reproduce.  Palladius spends a lot of his time taking reports from the first database and attempting to reproduce them so they can get moved into the second database.  The devs work from the second database.  This is very relevent to this thread, because it means that SoE actually would not be saving any time or money by copying peoples toons so they could do point testing of spells and combat arts for the revamp.  SoE would have to reproduce everything that they did, anyway.  It is also very important to remember that SoE hired Palladius and Nate and the other QA people because, at least in part, they are qualified to accurately describe and thoroughly test bugs.  SoE cannot possibly be expected to trust me or you or any other player to deliver accurate and thorough information the same way it trusts its own employees.  So, in the final analysis, SoE actually is relying on Palladius et al to do the real testing.  What the players on Test are doing in reality is providing suggestions to Palladius and the rest of SoE QA about what to look at.  By giving lots of details and explaining how to reproduce the problem, we are helping Palladius to test a given bug in less time.  Even more important, by finding problems that SoE did not anticipate, we are helping Palladius decide what to test.  However, the bottom line is that no matter what players do on the Test server, it is not a substitute for SoE employees doing their own testing.  We should not be expecting to be asked to do things that in reality would not improve or speed up SoE's own testing activities.<BR><BR>Edowen<BR> <p>Message Edited by Edowen on <span class=date_text>07-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:05 PM</span>

[EtoilePirate]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote: <div>"Is there a level 50 of each sub-class on test?"</div> <div> </div> <div>If the answer is "yes", then im waisting my time posting here trying to find a solution to a non-existant problem.</div> <div>If the answer is "no", then the developers need to find a way for players to test skills and spells from level 3-50, how ever they indend to accomplish this.</div> <div> </div> <div>Toodles!</div><hr></blockquote> To do the kind of testing you describe in your posts, you don't want 24 players, one level 50 of each class.  You want thousands, in the end: one player of every level of every class (so that's, what, 4 classes for levels 1-9 [36 characters], then 12 for levels 10-19 [120 characters], and 24 for levels 20-50 [720 characters]) for a total of 876... but then you want to get multiples at each level, to see how their racial traits, traning skills, special ability choices etc. factor into it.  Which basically means, what you want is a large, full, mixed-up population that mirrors all the possibilities available on a live server.  In other words, Test with more people. Having 24 level 50 players just wouldn't cut it.  Edowen did a nice job describing internal testing, and going after single spells or single bugs and all.  But just making sure you have one level 50 of every class really, really wouldn't cut it.  Even with mentoring -- that could introduce completely new bugs that change the way all the spells and skills work anyway. (Edited for spelling.  I hate making dumb typos.)</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by EtoilePB on <span class=date_text>07-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 AM</span>

[einar4]

<P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Because to play test I would start at level 1, and the content that usually needs testing is upwards of level 30 or so.  I've made an effort to play on test, but genearlly I cannot advance up to a point where I can adequately test any content without becoming unemployed.  I had intended to have a character moved there when the offer was made, but as it happened I was not at a computer during the 24 hours that the movelog command was allowed for my server.  </P> <P> In essence, the very short time period that was allowed to move characters to the test server told me that the qa team did not really care too much about getting established characters onto the test server.  If the Eq2 dev/qa team doesn't care that much, why should I? </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>