Ask SoE #37... ummm... this doesn't sound good... unless....

[WolfSha]

<DIV><I><B>from ask soe #37 <A href="http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43" target=_blank>http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43</A></B></I> <STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><I><B>Sassee:</B> Part of the changes coming to spells and combat arts is to adjust how much damage the various classes do in relation to each other. Can you tell us how the different subclasses will rank in relative damage potential?</I><BR>  </FONT><FONT color=#66ffff><B>Steve "Moorgard" Danuser:</B> Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest.<BR><BR>First group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Wizard/Warlock </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Assassin/Ranger</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Second group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Brigand/Swashbuckler</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Third group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Troubador/Dirge </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Bruiser/Monk </FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Fourth group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Berserker/Shadowknight </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Paladin/Guardian</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Fifth group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Fury/Warden </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Defiler/Mystic </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Inquisitor/Templar</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Keep in mind that these aren't absolutes. </FONT><STRONG><FONT color=#66ffff>A Guardian who concentrates on damage output and upgrades his or her offensive abilities could surpass a Berserker who focuses on defensive capabilities.</FONT> </STRONG></DIV> <P>So does that conversely mean that a zerker that "concentrates on defence" can out defence a guardian "concentrating on offence"?</P> <P>And what we talking about here anyway?  A guard with adept 3 offence skill vs a zerker that has left all the offence skills at app 1?</P> <P>Is this is really just "if you have all adept 1's in every skill, zerker has more offence and guard has more defence but that can swap round with adept 3's vs app 1's"?, Ie what we have now, in which case fair enough, i guess... maybe.... but it is a shift of role fot the class very late in the game that i won't be happy about....</P> <P>Or are we talking a(nother) major nerf to zerker dps here moorgard? Ie down close to a guardians offence?</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>If we're going to become very similar to guards in offence i can cope with that i guess provided our defence is close too.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><SPAN class=time_text>This is not a moan, but i would like to know where the class is going....</SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:39 AM</span>

[Nobol]

Hot I'm in group 3!

[BigRedWo]

Yay, I'm in group 2 AND 3 :smileyvery-happy:

[Encantador]

<P>Does anyone see a small oddity in this listing? Let me point it out....</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WolfShark wrote:<BR> <DIV><I><B>from ask soe #37 <A href="http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43" target=_blank>http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43</A></B></I> <STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><I><B>Sassee:</B> Part of the changes coming to spells and combat arts is to adjust how much damage the various classes do in relation to each other. Can you tell us how the different subclasses will rank in relative damage potential?</I><BR>  </FONT><FONT color=#66ffff><B>Steve "Moorgard" Danuser:</B> Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest.<BR><BR>First group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Wizard/Warlock </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Assassin/Ranger</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Second group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Brigand/Swashbuckler</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Third group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Troubador/Dirge </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Bruiser/Monk </FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Fourth group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Berserker/Shadowknight </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Paladin/Guardian</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Fifth group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Fury/Warden </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Defiler/Mystic </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Inquisitor/Templar</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff>........</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Every line except 2 of the listing consists of the pairs of subclasses forming a class. Group 4 has fighters and crusaders crossed.</P> <P>Is this intentional or not?</P> <P>If it is intentional then the only possible explanation is that not only are these groups ordered but so are the lines within them. <BR></P>

[Eneg]

<span><blockquote><hr>encanta wrote: <p>Every line except 2 of the listing consists of the pairs of subclasses forming a class. Group 4 has fighters and crusaders crossed.</p> <p>Is this intentional or not?</p> <p>If it is intentional then the only possible explanation is that not only are these groups ordered but so are the lines within them. </p><hr></blockquote>Well, it would make sense that a zerker out-dps's a guardian, and a SK out-dps's a Pally... so maybe. group 5 for the win! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Encantador]

<P>To get back to the OP..,.. </P> <P>"Or are we talking a(nother) major nerf to zerker dps here moorgard? Ie down close to a guardians offence?"  YEP. In absolute terms even more than that since there has been more than one comment along the lines of everyone's DPS will go down (including mob DPS).</P> <DIV>I don't think berserkers have anything to fear from this. It seems quite clear that sixth of the subclasses will be able to take the MT role in a group. They will be able to tank about the same as each other and will have about the same DPS. This is a change from the current situation where berserkers get places in groups for their DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are worrying things about this list. The main one being the number of distinct groups. One healer group with a quarter of the subclasses but really only one group spot. One tank group with a sixth of the subclasses and one 'reserved' group spot. One 'top' DPS group with one sixth of the classes and 4 DPS slots to fill ?????? Such is the demand for DPS that group 2 should be ok as filler especially if they have some utility. What then for group 3?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To personalise this a bit, why would you put a monk in your group?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see the demand for the top DPS classes going through the roof. I wonder if something will be done to stop them being the top soloers?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by encanta on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:53 AM</span>

[Kirotaan]

I have to say that i believe it is intentional Encanta.  Sk's have more dmg type spells where as a Paladin would have their heal spells.  Berserkers have more attack skills and Guardians have more defensive skills as well.  I believe this is intentional to how the game was designed and actually makes a lot of sense.  I am wondering about the necromancer/Conjurer setup though.  Right now my tank pet does more dmg than the non tank pet.  However my personal DPS goes up (by a lot) when I use the tank pet.  Probably cause I am not afraid to nuke the thing into oblivion but you know hey.  <div></div>

[Ravenmi]

Sounds good to me.  I'm in the lowest bracket for dmg.. but thats to be expected.  The rest of the brackets seem to have the people there that should be and in the right order.

[Silversnow]

<blockquote><hr>encanta wrote: <P>To get back to the OP..,.. </P> <P>"Or are we talking a(nother) major nerf to zerker dps here moorgard? Ie down close to a guardians offence?"  YEP. In absolute terms even more than that since there has been more than one comment along the lines of everyone's DPS will go down (including mob DPS).</P> <DIV>I don't think berserkers have anything to fear from this. It seems quite clear that sixth of the subclasses will be able to take the MT role in a group. They will be able to tank about the same as each other and will have about the same DPS. This is a change from the current situation where berserkers get places in groups for their DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are worrying things about this list. The main one being the number of distinct groups. One healer group with a quarter of the subclasses but really only one group spot. One tank group with a sixth of the subclasses and one 'reserved' group spot. One 'top' DPS group with one sixth of the classes and 4 DPS slots to fill ?????? Such is the demand for DPS that group 2 should be ok as filler especially if they have some utility. What then for group 3?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To personalise this a bit, why would you put a monk in your group?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see the demand for the top DPS classes going through the roof. I wonder if something will be done to stop them being the top soloers?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by encanta on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:53 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Not sure what planet your on but soloing as an assassin can't really get any worst. Unless you love spamming 100 arrows around trying to attempt to kite around a group ^^ mob then scouts already have the worst time soloing. It should actually be the same or even easier to solo after this.

[Tarindel]

<span><blockquote><hr>encanta wrote:<div></div> <p>To get back to the OP..,.. </p>There are worrying things about this list. The main one being the number of distinct groups. One healer group with a quarter of the subclasses but really only one group spot. One tank group with a sixth of the subclasses and one 'reserved' group spot. One 'top' DPS group with one sixth of the classes and 4 DPS slots to fill ?????? Such is the demand for DPS that group 2 should be ok as filler especially if they have some utility. What then for group 3? <div> </div> <div>To personalise this a bit, why would you put a monk in your group?</div> <div> </div> <div>I see the demand for the top DPS classes going through the roof. I wonder if something will be done to stop them being the top soloers?</div> <hr></blockquote> I see the same thing, Encanta.  Only one group spot for the group 5 healers, one group spot for the group 4 tanks, possibly one spot for group 3 (enchanters and bards, for buffs), and the rest going to group 1 and 2 DPS classes.  I'm not sure what utility the group 2 classes have to offer over the group 1 classes, but they'd probably get groups anyway just because there are so many group spots available and not that many group 1 players. Monks and bruisers probably get the biggest shaft -- with so many DPS classes above them, and a large number of players playing group 4 heavy tanks, there's not much reason to take one. DPS classes (groups 1 and 2) are the biggest winners in the realignment Group 3 classes are probably the biggest losers, with group 4 and then group 5 (fury/warden) following behind. The real question at this point is: how big are these differences going to be?  If there isn't a huge difference between group 1 and group 3, then things probably won't change that much.  If the difference is significant, then we're going to see a lot of shakeup, and a significant slide back to the days of EQ1 where classes were routinely rejected for groups. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[SavinDwa]

<DIV>I always get confused by these types of threads.  I suspect that most of the posters are solo types of players who tend to join a lot of pickup groups, but it must be hard to get in a pickup group after 30-35.  Let me try and give you the perspective of a person that is in a small guild and has a small group of friends -- all with lots of alts LOL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For groups of 4-6:  About the only thing that is important in a big group from a class point of view is you really would like to have one healer and one tank.  A healer is any priest.  A tank certainly includes SK, Berserker, Paladin, Guardian.  A monks are kind of funny, they really don't seem to play the tank role well, but I don't have a lot of experience with them.  I don't know much about Bruisers wince we are Qeynos based and we don;t really have one at a high enough level yet.  As long as we have these roles filled, anything is fine.  Duo, or 3 person groups -- who cares, the fun is trying to work out what works.  For instance, I have a level 36 ranger and I went to help a guild mate with a level 39 inquiistor, we basically decided to let him tank and it was fun working out what tactics worked best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My normal group that meets three times a week has a berserker (who is the main tank), Paladin that is Main Assist, Fury that is the healer, Ranger and Warlock for Damage.  We occassionally get another guild mate which could be anything from a tankm to a healer to a wizard.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where am I going with this long psot LOL... oh yeah!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A groups ability to work together, manage aggro, use HOs effectively, understand their class, etc is more important than the actual classes.  About 4 weeks ago a Ranger we didn't know asked to join us in varsoons.  Nice person.  Their ranger was one level below mine at the time.  I think I was level 28 or something and they were level 27.  Anyway, we ha our worst night in months experience wise.  The ranger did not know how to manage aggro, they were constantly getting hit which pulled juice from our only healer, they were doing almost everything wrong from a group point of view.  They had spent most of their time solo and in pickup groups.  We were 40% as productive as we would have been without them,  the fact fact that a ranger is great DPS is useless if they constantly pull aggro.  one concept he could never understand (and we kept trying to tell him) was if you pull aggro from a mob please ignore the mob, concentrate on the mob the main tank is on, get behind the mobm use your CAs.  Someone else will get the mob off you and someone else will keep you alive, just ignore the stupid mob.  But his solo instainct were to attack whatever is attacking him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, yes you need a healer in a nig group, and yes a some sort of tank, but after that the skill of the players is 10x more important than the class.  Also, players with experience in groups are always going to be better then solo players.  Inviting a solo player to your group is fine, they need to learn sometime.  If they are not willing to learn then try not to ever group with them again.  Solo is a different game all together.  Don't woory to much about the perfect balanced group.  The perfect balanced group is a group that knows how to work together as a group.  Hell, we have gone out with 3 rangers and had a blast playing pingpong with the mobs.</DIV>

[WolfSha]

<P>If i'd got to 50 soloing i'd be very proud of it, but i didn't.</P> <P>You are of course right to some extent, the group matters more than the indevidual and if the group still works well then you can stiill acheive stuff, <STRONG>but you're missing the point</STRONG>...</P> <P>I still want to play the subclass i chose.  I wanna play it in a group and i wanna play it well (which i do every day).  But playing in a group doesn't mean you have to have 4 idential bland plate tanks to make choosing the tank easier.  It just dumbs things down.   </P> <P>Why not just scrap sub classes althougher?  Just have 4 choices: mage, priest, scout, fight.  The group still works well.  But on a character by character lever it's very boring, very bland and it's not what i or i expect most people want.  </P> <P>I know that's taking it to the extreem and it's not what yuou said, but if you follow your line of thought that's where it ends up....   The difference between subclasses is vitally important.  Not because you <EM>need</EM> a guard for xyz mob, hell no, just because it's fun to have differences!</P> <P>My reason for posting was this:</P> <P>There are 4 different plate tanks.  They all had different amouts of dmg, defence and ulitily.</P> <P>I picked the one that suited me - more or less no util, middle defence, high dps.  I MT most of my time in groups unless there's a guardian there, and MA when i raid.</P> <P>I'm very happy with my roll and my subclasses balance vs the other fighter subclasses.</P> <P> </P> <P>There has been however a LOT and i mean LOADS of moaning on this board by most fighter subclasses that people are finding that they can't tank as well as a guardian.</P> <P>And now i'm worried that all plate tanks are gonna be made VERY similar.  I didn't want a guardian, i wanted a zerker.  Now it looks like i'm gonna get a guardian anyway becase a lot of people that really wanted a guardian but made a SK or whatever moaned that they couldn't tank raid mobs as well as a guard could.</P> <P>Now as i said, i really hope i'm over re-acting and they're not gonna be that close after all and a guard won't be able to out-dsp a zerker without  VERY extreem "concentrating" on one or the other - ie adept 3's vs app 1's.</P> <P>If sony have gone for the brain dead "all plate tank classes defend and attack about the same and plate tank = defence not dmg" then there really is no point playing one for me any more as that's not what i want from my zerker.  I want enough defence to make a reasonable group tank/raid MA and the rest to be damage....</P> <P>Maybe i should go monk... but i did like the ebon... and the ebbc... :smileysad:</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[Ethelwo]

<P>I want to see the class defence and base HP list. If my Zerker loses more dps then he already has lost and still cant tank as well as a Guardian then I'm out of here. I will invest no more time in a game that just nerfs away my reasons for playing a class. I chose a berserker for his dps output and never complained that he didn't have the heals and wards of crusaders or the HPs and defence abilities of the Guardian. If my choosen class is going to be religated to the trash heap of dps and still doesn't have heals, wards or the defence to off set the dps nerf he becomes the bottom of the barrel and worthless. I will not feed a dime to a company that stole my mojo. I will go play something else. Maybe a game that is run by a company that doesn't change the ground rules of each class all the time based on the complaints of it's player base. You fix things that are broken you don't take away something from one class just because someone who plays another doesn't like it. You fix whats wrong with the other class.</P> <P>All I've heard is that mobs are getting stronger and my class is getting weeker. Wow, what a fun game for me, huh.</P> <P>As it is right now, I berserk alot, but almost never get haste from it. Berserker haste  is so rare as to be almost non exisitant. Plus the emote for berserk interupts any skill I use. I dont get berserker haste, just a self interupt. This game is [Removed for Content] and it seem to be getting more [Removed for Content] with every new patch. tick tick tick the time for the final log off is on the clock.</P>

[Azamien-Dermorate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tarindel wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>DPS classes (groups 1 and 2) are the biggest winners in the realignment<BR>Group 3 classes are probably the biggest losers, with group 4 and then group 5 (fury/warden) following behind.<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>the enchanters in group 3 are happy to be moved up that high.  right now they would be in group 5 just barely above the healers.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[wullailhuit]

<span>I'm really shocked by this<blockquote><hr><div><font color="#66ffff">Second group: </font></div> <ul> <li><font color="#66ffff">Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) <font color="#ff0000"><-------------------------</font> </font></li> <li><font color="#66ffff">Brigand/Swashbuckler</font></li></ul> <div><font color="#66ffff">Third group: </font></div> <ul> <li><font color="#66ffff">Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) </font></li> <li><font color="#66ffff">Troubador/Dirge </font></li> <li><font color="#66ffff">Bruiser/Monk </font></li></ul></blockquote> Conjurors should be in group 1 if using their damage pet(s) , thats what we've been promised since LU3 , now we're told we aren't as good DPS wise , I don't mind being in group 3 using our meat shield pet...But to be put in group 2 with our DPS pets.... I'm not happy...   </span><div></div>

[ginfress]

<DIV>SoE destroyed swg with the combat revamp, wouldnt suprise me if they destroy eq2 too. WTB new dev team that knows how to run an MMORPG in a proper manner.</DIV>

[Cuz]

I thought this was the intended order all along. The only thing that seems to be different in that list vs what we have right now is that Zerkers move down a bit, and troubs and chanters move up a bit.

[Simk]

<DIV>Is anyone else having SWG flashbacks? Hey Moorguard, you work for SOE, remember how well the Combat Upgrade/Revamp went with SWG? Maybe you guys should think about fixing problems with the current system, instead of making a new system with new problems. EQ2 has a large base from EQ1 players, and then, many SWG players (me and half of my over 150 player guild included) went to EQ2 after the game destroying CURB. Where are the players gonna go if you destroy EQ2? Certainly not another SOE game. Bleep me once, shame on you, bleep me twice, shame on me. So in otherwords, if you screw players over again, we're gonna be so ticked off, we're not going to want to play an SOE game again. I speak for myself on this, but I'm sure I'm not alone. So maybe you can pass the word along to the developers (doubt you will though) about fixing the current system. I dont' want to see another game I really enjoy playing completely ruined by unnessecary changes. LISTEN TO PLAYER FEEDBACK! We are the one who play the game. How about hosting a cross server vote about whether or not to Revamp on this scale. Fixing the current bugs and problems is a much better solution than completely turning the combat and class system upside down and adding a million other new problems. I've put a lot of time and money into this game (subscription fees are killer when your a poor college student) and I don't want to see it crash and burn like SWG, I was a year long veteran player on SWG and what a waste it was. Please don't do this to EQ2 as well.</DIV>

[Razie Ber]

<div></div><div></div>I really hope they diversify the roles of Predators vs. Rogues... Otherwise I'm concerned with the concept that  Predators are slated as the highest dps slot simply because one of them is named "Assassin" which obviously must mean they kill the hardest.. I think that there should be distinct situations on how their DPS is highest, and I'm also concerned that they have nearly as much debuff ability as Rogues, along with the top dps, which is madly un-even. On top of which, Brigands and Swashbucklers, are barely different classes, where-as rangers and assassin's are pretty widely different on the type of skills and way they do thier dps.. I hope to see some further distinction between the two Rogue classes, along with role definement, and  less favoritism towards Assassins just because they're named that. Also I think one thing that seriously needs to be factored in, is the overall group dps added by enchanters and bard classes, and wether or not, after factoring that in, they won't in fact be the top cumulative dps. Just the way I see it, I'm sure others disagree. <div></div><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Razie Berry on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:32 PM</span>

[Kven]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>I want to see the class defence and base HP list. If my Zerker loses more dps then he already has lost and still cant tank as well as a Guardian then I'm out of here. I will invest no more time in a game that just nerfs away my reasons for playing a class. I chose a berserker for his dps output and never complained that he didn't have the heals and wards of crusaders or the HPs and defence abilities of the Guardian. If my choosen class is going to be religated to the trash heap of dps and still doesn't have heals, wards or the defence to off set the dps nerf he becomes the bottom of the barrel and worthless. I will not feed a dime to a company that stole my mojo. I will go play something else. Maybe a game that is run by a company that doesn't change the ground rules of each class all the time based on the complaints of it's player base. You fix things that are broken you don't take away something from one class just because someone who plays another doesn't like it. You fix whats wrong with the other class.</P> <P>All I've heard is that mobs are getting stronger and my class is getting weeker. Wow, what a fun game for me, huh.</P> <P>As it is right now, I berserk alot, but almost never get haste from it. Berserker haste  is so rare as to be almost non exisitant. Plus the emote for berserk interupts any skill I use. I dont get berserker haste, just a self interupt. This game is [Removed for Content] and it seem to be getting more [Removed for Content] with every new patch. tick tick tick the time for the final log off is on the clock.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So you want to keep your plate armor, your tanking abilities (while not the BEST [and why should it be], still superb), your insane buffs ( I love berserker buffs... ), and your DPS?</P> <P>Sure! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>As far as I can tell from what I've heard concerning the upcoming changes, you'll be leaving.  I hope you find a game that suits what you're looking for.</P> <P>Though I think it's pretty funny what you said here:</P> <P><EM>" I chose a berserker for his dps output and never complained that he didn't have the heals and wards of crusaders or the HPs and defence abilities of the Guardian."</EM></P> <P>Well I sure hope not... you had insane damage coupled with great tanking ( again, not the best, but really good ) and some of the best buffs in the game for a group.<BR>So we're glad you didn't moan for heals and wards <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And you didn't wanna top the defense chart too?  How noble of you.</P> <P> </P> <P>.. Seriously.<BR></P>

[Banef]

<span><blockquote><hr>Razie Berry wrote:<div></div><div></div>I really hope they diversify the roles of Predators vs. Rogues... Otherwise I'm concerned with the concept that  Predators are slated as the highest dps slot simply because one of them is named "Assassin" which obviously must mean they kill the hardest.. <hr></blockquote>I agree 100% with you. Assassins and Rangers get some debuffs, some proc buffing, some slows, evac, disarms, tracking, etc etc. As a Brigand, I have some excellent debuffs (@50), some stuns/interupts, and the slowest group sneak ingame. I hope a very well equipped Brigand be able to keep up with an 'average' Assassin? </span><div></div>

[Kven]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Baneful wrote:<BR><SPAN>I hope a very well equipped Brigand be able to keep up with an 'average' Assassin?</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Absolutely.</P> <P>But equipment isn't just armor/weapons, CA upgrades and player skill ( think it takes none? bet me ).</P> <P>A GOOD brigand/swash will easily keep up and exceed an 'average' assassin.  However, you shouldn't be able to keep up with a GOOD assassin.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Tatali]

<span><blockquote><hr>Razie Berry wrote:<div></div><div></div>I really hope they diversify the roles of Predators vs. Rogues... Otherwise I'm concerned with the concept that  Predators are slated as the highest dps slot simply because one of them is named "Assassin" which obviously must mean they kill the hardest.. <hr></blockquote>I agree with your partially, but not for the reasons you state. I agree they need to diversify the rolls of preds and rogues more, but I think the reason they pushed preds ahead is because rogues were intended to be somewhat of a bridge between the pure damage scouts (preds) and the nearly pure utility scouts (bards). Rogues got a group sneak and some modest "tanking" skills (taunts comes to mind... at least for swash), but by an large SOE dropped the ball on making rogues anything much other than a straight dps class. I think rogues need their game roll better defined. Right now, most rogues seem to top preds in terms of damage and if SOE wanted them more of a utility type scout, they failed. I sort of expected rogues to be the "light tank" style class with some other group friendly skills but that hasn't been the case... and in fact, there's no reason for a "light tank" to exist in EQ2 anyhow. You're either a heavy tank or you die in a single hit, there's no middle ground. </span><div></div>

[Banef]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tataline wrote:<span> I sort of expected rogues to be the "light tank" style class with some other group friendly skills but that hasn't been the case...</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>The name Rogue, the and the fact that most our abilities come from behind, places us far away from the word 'tank'. We do get 1 or 2 very crappy taunts. What for? I have no idea. </span><div></div>

[Razie Ber]

Honestly, at the top end, raiding level, Predators out damage Rogues by a very large margin at the moment. On top of having almost every utility function we have, and more, with the exception of group stealth.. I honestly believe that if Predators are going to be the DPS kings of scouts, then Rogues should have the best and most debuffs, and not just by 1 or 2, but significantly.. Honestly, I don't think Predators should be getting any debuff attacks, especially not of the same type Rogues get. There was a time when Rogues were out dpsing Preds, but that time has been long gone, especially at 50. I see Rogues as a solid dps/debuff class with the ability to drop consistant dps over long fights, however, this isn't the case at all currently, I run out of power twice as fast as Preds with half the dps. <div></div>

[AScarlato]

<P>I have no problem with Rogues having "light tank" skills.  My Swash played tank many times in groups without a real tank.  I'm not sure if it is gear or my class, but I noticed I tend to have several hundred more max HP then most predators I group with, so I do feel as though there is some *small* difference in tanking ability between the two.  Has anyone compared Predator v. Rogue HP, or is just a result of my having chosen HP increases and having pretty decent gear?  I don't want to make an assertion that isn't actually true, its just what I noticed with my Rogue in particular.  ((Of course I also noticed that my rogue tends to equal or out-dps predators I group with, but without really being able to account for differences in skill and/or gear, who knows?))</P> <P>I don't think some light tanking is inconsistent with being a Rogue, either.  Swashbucklers are flashy swordsmen who I can almost see fencing.  Brigands are highwaymen....they rob and plunder and murder.  I can imagine highwaymen who face their victims face on before killing them.  Still....if we are giving up any DPS to be a mediocre tank, SoE can take my tanking skills right back.</P>

[Dimgroth]

I just wish they wernt charging us for extended beta.. <div></div>

[los]

<P><FONT size=5>BERSEKER</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=5></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=5>If they take away my DPS</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=5>and do NOT up my TAUNT and/or TANKING to at least twice what it is right now,</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=5>I ALSO WILL BE LEAVING. How can you take something away and not improve on anything else. This is no threat. Ruin your game if you will, I will not look back. I will leave and close this door and my friends will probably follow.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=5>GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR REVAMP, MAKE SURE YOU DO IT RIGHT!</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Mortei]

I open my mouth and say that some berserkers obviously dont know what they are talking about here. *enough said*

[Donners]

<P>'' Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict HEAVY DAMAGE with all manner of weapons.Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents,to whom they show no mercy''</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Yes thats why we are group 4 now ...Go on Sony just destroy more than you already did!</P>

[WolfSha]

<P>Thing is, at the moment, we can't tank like a guard, but we out dps them by a mile, and that's what we wanted.  Anyone that wanted defence had up until lvl 20 to decide that guard was the way to go over zerker, so i really hope they're not going to be as close as moorguard suggests.</P> <P>I really do think though that what they are trying to do is make the plate fighers into "pure" tanks with loads of defence, some ulility for crusaders but not much offence.... unfortunately that wasn't what a zerker was supposed to be. </P> <P>loshe, don't worry - i think they will be uping our defence, i don't think it'll be all take-  I think they're basically planning to make us much closer to guard in all round performance to keep the dps classes happy.  </P> <P><STRONG>While being a guardian isn't bad in itself if i'd have wanted a guard i'd have made one not a zerker.</STRONG></P> <P>I don't think they're planning to [Removed for Content] the class, but i am worried they're going to very much change our balance of attack and defence and therefor how feels to play one.  </P> <P>I like my dps <STRONG>i even like the fact i have lower defence than a guard</STRONG> I like the risk - it's more fun to play! and it's what being a zerker is all about - pulling something to big for you to sensibly tank and hoping you can stun it enough and kill it quickly enough to make up for that!!  </P> <P>Which nicely fits with the manual's description of "Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents".  That's how we tank... we have reasonable defence, but we can't heal or lifetap or take the beating a gaurd can. The one thing we CAN do is lay down enough dps to make up for that.</P> <P>You can't do that to a raid mob, but fine,  I don't mind - i'm happy MAing raid mobs or even just joining the dps group - i can't keep up with a ranger for dps but i know that if i do get agro i won't be laying on the floor in 1 hit so i'm happy with that.  </P> <P>The main point is that I and most every other zerker I know on everfrost made a zerker to be a great fun character to play group MT and raid MA.  We didn't expect to MT a raid like a guardian and we didn't expect our dps to dissapear this late in the game either.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:22 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Berserkers shouldn't even outdps monks/bruisers, let alone scouts and mages.  Get over it.</DIV>

[WolfSha]

<P>Hi gage.</P> <P>I completely agree.  Zerkers should NEVER out dps a mage or scout or bruisers..</P> <P>But that's not the complaint here - I started this thread not because of that, but because of moorguard saying a guard will be able to out dps a zerker if he wants to.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rhaam]

<blockquote><hr>Kvenau wrote:<blockquote>So you want to keep your plate armor, your tanking abilities (while not the BEST [and why should it be], still superb), your insane buffs ( I love berserker buffs... ), and your DPS?</blockquote><p>Sure! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote><div>As far as zerk DPS i hate to be the one to say it but it is often overstated on these boards. Been parsing plently at lvl 50 in high end groups. The real big DPS numbers you see from us are pretty situational and more often than not can be outdone by SK's. Put a guardian in the same group as a zerker and they can come extremely close to zerk DPS.</div><div> </div><div>Overall however fighter DPS comes in large part from added procs. In a high mana regen group with a lot of procs and a slow weapon we can put out some big numbers. Though it's nothing really to do with our skills per se and more to do with game mechanics and knowing how to set up the group to maximize your own dps. Making CA's not be based off weapon delay for procs would balance the DPS table by a hell of a lot on it's own.</div><div> </div><div>As far as our buffs we have some decent group haste, one ac buff with a damage proc and some +hp buffs (which are a step down from guard buffs). Wouldn't really call them insane that's for sure.Honestly we seem pretty balanced with guards to me since we can only buff our defense by a max of +16. It really comes down to how big the difference willa ctually be in between the groups and for that I guess we will all just have to wait and see.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Rhaaman on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WolfShark wrote:<BR> <P>Hi gage.</P> <P>I completely agree.  Zerkers should NEVER out dps a mage or scout or bruisers..</P> <P>But that's not the complaint here - I started this thread not because of that, but because of moorguard saying a guard will be able to out dps a zerker if he wants to.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Right now a guildie guardian can outdps me on some raids.  That's broken as well, I don't see the outcry about it.</P> <P>MG stated that a well played, offensively mind/built guardian could outdamage a defenseive built, averagely played berserker.</P> <P>Nothing wrong with that, considering aside from guardians/paladins, berserkers are the best tanks in the game.<BR></P>

[WolfSha]

<DIV>MG didn't mention anything about player skill, but perhaps that's there to be read between the lines.  Like i said in the OP, it's not necessarly a moan.  The OP was mainly asking for clarity...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is, it's kinda hard to build a zerker defensively.  We get 4 defence skill (once the HP buff stacking is removed) and we can put on a shield... not much else you can do.  I guess you can leave all your other skills at app 1 and count it as being "defencive" by not being particulary attacking.... :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we're talking guard with fabled 2 hander with adept 3's in offence vs a zerker built "defensively" by having not upgraded any offence skills and having a shield and a bad 1 hander then yeah, obviously he's gonna out dps the zerker, but if we're talking stupid expreems then why did MG even bother making the comment? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like the title of the thread says "ummm... this doesn't sound good... <STRONG>unless....</STRONG>"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm really just looking for clarity about whether or not SoE is making all plate tanks VERY low dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your guild guardian out dps's you?  I'll cry out for that not being fair! :smileysurprised:  (unless you're MTing and using your mitgation buffs that freeze you..?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>Nope, one some raid mobs Sigon can out DPS me when I'm going full tilt, depending.  (I don't tank raids).</P> <P>Or, he gets [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] close, like probably within 30 dps or so.</P>

[TheWays]

<P>I think one of the main reasons they are reducing zerker dps is to keep in line with the armor changes they are making, since zerkers wear the same armor as guards/paladins/sks they will have the same mitigation boosts that those classes will be getting.  To also have a noticeable increase in dps (situational or overall) is a bit absurd.  So, how about instead of complaining that your DPS is going to get cut with the increase of your tanking abilities, you start asking for a slight dps boost and restrictions to medium armors.</P> <P>You can't have the best of both worlds, no body can so get over it.  Brawlers suffer a steep penalty for their noticeable DPS advantage with the selection of their armor, if berzerkers want to go the same way I don't think they should have to pay any less.  Do all the massive damage you want, but don't do it in my armor.</P>

[WolfSha]

<P></P> <HR> <P>Gage wrote:</P> <P>Nope, one some raid mobs Sigon can out DPS me when I'm going full tilt, depending.  (I don't tank raids).</P> <P>Or, he gets [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] close, like probably within 30 dps or so.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Well that sucks! Boooo to that!  Hopefully these changes will mean you will be doing the damage you should be compared to other fighters.  Ie more than zerkers and certainly more than guards.</P> <P>I just hope zerkers are still defensively inferior and offencively superior enough to guards to make them interesting and different.</P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 AM</span>

[WolfSha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheWays wrote:<BR> <P>I think one of the main reasons they are reducing zerker dps is to keep in line with the armor changes they are making, since zerkers wear the same armor as guards/paladins/sks they will have the same mitigation boosts that those classes will be getting.  To also have a noticeable increase in dps (situational or overall) is a bit absurd.  So, how about instead of complaining that your DPS is going to get cut with the increase of your tanking abilities, you start asking for a slight dps boost and restrictions to medium armors.</P> <P>You can't have the best of both worlds, no body can so get over it.  Brawlers suffer a steep penalty for their noticeable DPS advantage with the selection of their armor, if berzerkers want to go the same way I don't think they should have to pay any less.  Do all the massive damage you want, but don't do it in my armor.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I've already explained this.... This wasn't about zerkers position overall in the the list.  I highlighted the "bad bit" in bold in the OP.  Maybe i should have made it in big font too.... I have more defence than anyone above me on the new DPS list.  I am NOT complaining that the zerkers overall position is unfair.  We get no utility at all so i'd expect to see us at about the same dps with <EM>very slighty</EM> better defence than a SK to acount for their group utility, debuffs and (rubbish) lifetaps but that's it.  I'm NOT saying we should be in group 2!!!   I wish people would stop assuming i'm asking for the defence of a guard and the dsp of a ranger.</P> <P>This was simply about zerkers compared to guards.  If zerkers get a defence boost and a dps cut making them very similar to guards then what will a) be boring and b) make the distinction almost pointless.</P> <P>It's not like the difference between a SK and a pally - they are VERY different. even with the same defence and dps they would be very different.  The ONLY thing seperating a guard and zerker are their defence and dps differences.   </P> <P>A well equipped SK cannot out-heal or out-rez a pally.  A well equipped pally cannot out evac or out mitigation de-buff any SK...   But squeeze guard and zerker together by making then similar in dps and defence just means you've ended up with "warriors" rather than guards and zerkers.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>All i'm asking for is for zerkers to be different to guards.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 AM</span>

[b3nda]

<p>Message Edited by b3ndali on <span class=date_text>06-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:28 AM</span>

[IvarIronhea]

<P>Actually, what I find most disconcerting about this is the LA tank classes (monk/bruiser) being an entire "tier" above the other fighter classes on DPS. Damage is not the only thing being adjusted with this revamp, defense and the like are as well.</P> <P>Previously, Moorgard had stated a monk and guardian could switch between defensive/offensive roles once the changes come into play. Has this changed? As now he states berserkers and guardians are the interchangable fighter classes. No mention of the LA "tanks."</P> <P>If LA tanks retain an insurmountable edge in DPS over plate tanks will plate tanks retain a comparable edge in tanking ability? Moorgard's post illicits more confusion, for me, than answers.</P> <P> </P> <P>On a side note, Guage, isn't Sigon equipped on an entirely different tier than you? Where you have legendary/treasured mix he had a large amount of fabled gear mixed with legendary(and this was before he dropped his eq2players profile, his current gear lineup is no doubt better). Is this disparity also reflected in his skill quality(ie adept 3s/masters over a mix of adept1s and adept 3s). </P> <P>Details like this go a long way towards defusing generalizations such as "A guardian out DPS's my monk!!"</P>

[TheyLi]

<DIV>There seems to be some implications that they're reducing the DPS on everything across the board, including monsters, and that is pretty disturbing. If they reduce all damage thats the same as making all fights last X% longer, AKA making it take X% longer to gain exp and level up. What could possibly be SOE's motivation for doing this other than forcing people have to play the game longer, and consequently pay them more money to achieve the same results as before? With Cheater Express coming, it is starting to seem like they are re-balancing the game to have larger money & time sinks (such as the upcoming removal of spell scaling, forcing people to shell out mega-money for adept III+ in all important skills) which highly favors the act of paying USD to Scumbag Exchange to enhance/speed up gameplay. What is this game coming to if they are changing the fundamentals in a largely negative way to encourage people to shell out more money for currency and/or levels? Do they even care that most of the major changes they have in the works are getting a negative response, or will they simply stick their proverbial heads in the sand and go about their own agenda, forsaking all else in the pursuit of cash?</DIV>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheWays wrote:<BR> <P>... So, how about instead of complaining that your DPS is going to get cut with the increase of your tanking abilities, you start asking for a slight dps boost and restrictions to medium armors.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd gladly turn in my heavy armour for VLA (if they can come up with something else then a robe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), if that would mean we could do higher DPS. I understand not all zerkers want to go that way, so asking for a slight to medium boost in DPS and restricting armour to medium only, might make everybody happy..</P> <P>That does leave the question however why assassins get to wear medium armour and are going to be top DPS :smileywink:</P>

[Ethelwo]

<P>Kvenau, If SOE had the [Removed for Content] class in EQ2 I am certain it would be the one you would play. Get it together man, Zekers have one thing that keeps them equal to all other heavy metal classes and thats are dps. Take that away and we are no longer equal but the bottom of the heap. We dont get heals, our HP buff and defence buffs are well below what a Guardian has and we dont get wards and damage spells like a Shadow Knight. All we get is a little extra dps from melee weapons. I didnt invest 50 levels worth of time into the class just to be illiminated 8 months after the game is released. Berserkers have already been hit with more nerf bats then any other class. I for one am tired of being nerfed all the time as you would be too if your class was being slammed all the time. </P> <P>What are berserkers supposed to be. What does history, both lore and real, say about them. I would prefer they take away our heavy armor and replace it with equal medium armor then lower my dps any more then they already have.</P> <P>SOE screwed up in the begining anyways and should have had them in medium armor from the start. This combat change doesn't address the original screw up in the Berserker design at all, It just makes things worse, both for the class and the game. Monks and Bruisers are light armor fighters and Berserkers should have been medium armor fighters. But thats not how SOE made them, So now were stuck with a game that was broken when it was released and will remain that way inspite of any changes SOE throws in. The Original design is the foundation and way to many assumptions were proven to be wrong with it. If they couldn't get it right up front, what in your mind makes you think they can get it right 8 months later. The SOE development team has thus far proven to be inept at establishing base mechanics that are stable. Right now if they fix one thing it breaks something else. They will not get it right either until they lose some bad notions.</P> <P>I dont ask for SOE to nerf any class in the game, either on these forums or anywhere else. But others do, and SOE listens to these Jackaholes. As long as their listening to selfish folks screaming unfair then the game will always be lopsided and skewed in favor of one class over another. Is it to much to ask them to get all their scat in one sock instead of having it in many.</P> <P>Berserker should be high dps, medium armor with HPs equal to a Guardians and resonable defence skills. Then they would be just where the should be, Lower on mitigation and higher on dps. Not lower on HPs and defence, but with equal mitigation and and only slightly higher dps. SOE made the wrong choices from the start and this upcoming combat change does not address these wrong choices.</P> <P>For me it's about getting things exactly where they should be, not painting over wrong choices with new paint. No amount of new paint will cover up what are bad initial choices. The base Berserker has to be remade.</P> <P>All SOE has to do is poll Berserkers and ask us wheather or not we would prefer to have our dps nerfed or would rather have our armor nerfed to medium. The answers may surprize them. If the armor change is the choice then all existing berserker heavy armor should be changed to medium of equal type, for instance a Pistine imbued ebon vanguard BP should be changed to the medium version of the same thing. I have no problem with this.</P>

[Kven]

<P>Hey man,</P> <P>  I'm all for making your class medium armor and maintain your DPS.  However, your view isn't what SOE's view is.  They hold the deck of cards.  They envision Berserkers as plate-wearing tanks that have higher DPS but less defensive skills than a guardian.  Which is what you have now, except you have WAY too much DPS.  </P> <P>  I'm sorry you disagree.  I don't call for nerfs out of jealousy, or out of spite.  I ran a MUD for years and I know the great pains they're going through.  They can UP and UP everything all they want until the numbers go through the roof, and fights take 25 minutes.  I'd rather them lower it a bit and keep it balanced.  One or two classes will get hurt by this.  </P> <P>  Can you honestly tell me you think berserkers are balanced in their current state?  </P> <P>  It's very easy to get emotional about your class.  When you take a hit, it hurts.  But see the changes as good for the overall health of the game, not as changes just to [Removed for Content] you off.  Look at the global picture.  If you focus too hard on 1 aspect, you turn a blind eye to the balance and get up-in-arms about the 1 aspect instead of seeing things as a whole.</P> <P>  I wasn't trying to be an '[Removed for Content]'.  Just have to think about all the classes, not just your own.</P>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kvenau wrote:<BR> <P> I'm all for making your class medium armor and maintain your DPS.  However, your view isn't what SOE's view is.  They hold the deck of cards.  They envision Berserkers as plate-wearing tanks that have higher DPS but less defensive skills than a guardian.  Which is what you have now, except you have WAY too much DPS.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>True.. SOE does hold the cards, but they are also know to change their 'vision' quite a lot. How would you react when they suddenly change it again and think that an assassin is not really how they envisioned him to be and start making him fundamentally different? :womanwink: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I'll see if I can find some posts I kept from the eq2.com forums where they explain how they envisioned all fighters back then.. you'll be surprised. :smileysurprised: </DIV> <DIV>And even now they continue to misguide people on the eq2player site. If people decide to make a character, based on the class descriptions there, they are bound to be disappointed..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take care,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[WolfSha]

<P>Been trying to have a good think what i really do want.  The idea of going medium armour, full dps is interesting.... but not for me really.</P> <P>I still maintain i want what i've got now (with any appropriate imbalances ironed out - i don't want an unfair uber class)</P> <P>I want my plate, i have a scout in medium armour and i made my tank expecting him to always have heavy.  I want decent defence and decent dps (for a tank).  I argree with our place on the damage table, based on the amount of defence we have.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now to the main thing i'm worried about - MG's "example".</P> <P>How much i object to MG's statement about the overlap between zerkers and guards depends really on how wide the dps ranges are.  </P> <P>I'll try to give an example to show what i mean.  These are completely ficticous and meaningless dps figures to illustrate a point, so don't jump on me saying "that's more dps than my xyz class does with 2 ebon short swords and spikes tied to my boots"...</P> <P>A guard and a zerker obviously have a range of damage available to them based on what training options they chose, what gear they equipped etc.  </P> <P>I'm tanking same grade gear here - ie the diff between ledendary tower + ledendary 1 hander vs ledgendary 2H, not a junk 1H weapon vs a fabled 2 hander.</P> <DIV>if a guards dps range was say 40-100 dps and a zerkers was 95-165 then that's not too bad - as a offencive zerker at 165 is doing WAY more than the defensive MT guard down at 40 and a good amount more than ofensive guard.  Both have a dps "range" of 60 in this case and it has that crossover MG mentions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the ranges are smaller however say a range of 20 ie:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>if a guards was say 80-100 dps and a zerkers was 95-115 then that's not very good at all and i won't be happy at all as there's not enough difference between them.  This ALSO has that crossover MG mentions...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The trouble with what MG said is that both the above situations would be true - ie that an offencively focussed guard can out DPS a defencively focussed zerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We could try parsing it at the moment to get a feel for what the dps ranges are, but i suspect they'll be meaningless for trying to evaluate anything under the new combat system.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way to know is either for moorgard to give us a fuller picture rather than just saying there'll be cross over or to wait.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I expect we'll be playing the waiting game as i very much suspect that SoE haven't really got as far as working out the dps ranges for the subclasses yet.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What MG said doesn't spell doom for my enjoyment of my class, but doom does fit with what he said just as well as the happier option.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MG, any chance of clarifying this one? please???</DIV><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P><FONT color=#33cccc>My thinking on the fighter balance is that they will be more divided by their class then sub-class. To elaborate on that statement, a guardian and Berserker should be thoughts as Warriors. The Guardian shold have same BASE damage attacks as Berserker, but.... differnet side abilities. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cccc>Say Guardian_01 has an app1 attack called <insert a guardian CA because i dont know any and im too lazy atm to go look it up :smileywink:  > this skill reduces mobs attack speed and damage, making the guardian take less damage (or who ever is tanking, it still reduces incoming damage, so it's Defense)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cccc>Berserker_01 has the same skill with a different name. It increases the berserker's attack speed and damage, without a penalty (because guard doesnt recieve a penalty for using his)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cccc>Small varriations such as that will make a differance in defense vs offense without diviating too far from the class role of Warrior. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cccc>Other skills that add to each classes sub-roll would be giving Guards the "best" Guard Pc skill. Make it Guard 75-100% based on app1-master1, and each time guardian intercepts damage, it increases his hate. On upgraded version of the spell at later levels, or next "version" of this spell at level 35-50 when ever devs wana put it in, it could raise agro place with each intercept insted of just grant hate.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cccc>Berserkers could get a simular skill that has about same intercept chance, 60-90% that deals damage (aka guard but auto-riposites) the foes attack. This gives them an increased offense but less of a defense with out swinging too far one way or the other. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cccc>Intercept imo should be the warrior class's primary ability that they add toa  group, their "wanted" skill in a  group. It would keep getting better, and at higher levels, they could make it as strong as it covers the whole group.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cccc>Crusaders should be more of a magical defender. Allow them to intercept spell damage for players just like a Warrior intercepts physical blows. Say, give crusader's Protection CA a 50% chance to block a physical attack, and 60-90% chance to intercept spell damage. Then when they go Paladin/Sk, give paladins a 75-100% chance to block Divine/Heat/Cold/Magical, and SK a chance to block 75-100% Mental/Disease/Poison/Magical. Give them a Self-only ward that mitigates magical damage also, each of their resists, either pally or SK.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cccc>As for their differances in DPS, give Sk's life tap a damage boost to where it's slightly stronger than pallies compairible smite, but returns enough HP to the SK that it's about 75% of a paladins heal.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cccc>So if Pally_01's Paladin smite hit's for 100, let the SK's life tap hit for 150, heal for 150, and let the paladin's heal heal for 200. To balance this, make the SK's life tap cost same as casting both of the paladin's spell, and give it a reuse timer long enough to encompass both of the pally's spell's casting times and reuses. If it is a 2 sec cast 4 second wait for pally's heal and a 1 sec cast 5 second wait for their nuke, make the casting time of the SK's life tap 2 sec with a 10 second reuse for same power as casting both paladin spells. Paladin is still more defensive and SK is still more offensive for same amount of power.  (ALSO make SK's life tap unable to be resisted by mobs or else that causes problems since heals cant be resisted from pally.)</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Allow Brawlers to tank better against certain mobs that deals 10 hit combos that disregard the targets mitigation, but the 10-hit combo stops if avoided, so the Brawler classes have a much better chance tanking them then a weighted down plate class. Give Monks hate reducing buff as their claim to fame, at first make it simgle target with only 1 target, then as an upgraded version later on make it single target w/ 1 concerntration per target, then at high levels make it single target w/out using concentration so u can put it on unlimited targets in your group/raid, and specificaly who you want sence it's not a group buff but single target (so u dont use accedentaly on main tank). For Brawlers, give them the opposit with a Hate modifier simular to what SK had in EQ1. Allow this to increase damage potiental of target but also increaseing hate (allows damageing classes to be even more deadly but adds risk of gaining aggro, but if cast on tank also increases their aggro potiental as well as increased damage.) </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>When a Monk and a Bruiser cast both of their buffs on same target, the target gets the greatly increased damage buff along with reduced hate (the monks will overide the negative effect of the Bruisers damage buff) .</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>So by combineing their buffs they could greatly increase groups damage and aggro managment. Giving more hate generation to tank and giving group less hate generation+ damage buff.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>--- After post thought--- let these brawler buffs also have a chance to alow their recipient to avoid a blow (25-50% physical) making the brawler the least effective at protecting , but in a way it balances because target will get agro less ofter and wont need protection as much.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>It's differances like this in their utility that can actually makea  signifigent differance in damage that is enough to make the classes different. Keep about the same base damage for attacks, keep same base defense, and modify it useing different side skills. A Guardian has better defense than a Berserker using the sum of all his abilities, where as a berserker has a geater dps using the sum of his abilities, at no sacrifice to either of their ability to perform their role as a warrior.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>If each of the 3 tank classes has a foe that only they can tank truely well, then it makes them all useful as MT in diferent senerios. Each tank needs a secondair role that they can add toa  group for that moment whne they arnt tanking. It needs to be important enough to warrent their place ina  group, but no so important in ALL situation that it makes them more disierable than any other fighter. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Guardian would be good at end game when foe uses AOE physical blows (devs could force the fight in a small area so raid force cant simply stay out of range.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Berserker's Counter attack protection skill would prove very effective aginst fast hitting weak damageing mobs, like large groups of many mobs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Paladin and SK's protection that guards vs spell damage would be needed for very hard spell casters</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Monk and Bruiser would be needed to tank mobs that hit multiple times and ignore armor</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Each has a situation where they are all usefull, each a raid they are best in, and all should be adiquite for normal groups, with some being beter in certain types of mobs. Fighter's should not be wanted for thier personal damage, but rather for the Defensive and offensive abilities they can add to group's potiential. Not saying they shouldnt have nice and stylish attacks, just saying they should in no way take a mage/Scouts role because of their dps, but because of their "secondairy" atribute. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Let's say a group is made of a Brigand, Shaman type healer(or a Druid type), Monk (tanking), Ranger, and Assassin. They say they are LFM or another player, healer dps or other. Then a Wizard and Berserker go LFG. Now normaly, a Wizard would completely blow a berserker out of the water in terms of damage. But in this group full of Scouts, the added damage they gain from the berserker's group buff would give him more damage than the wizard. (group buffs need to increases combat art damage, not just haste like they do now, to make them usefull)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Take the same senerio with a different group set up: Guardian, Templar, Warlock, Conjuror, Illusionist have a 5th slot open, they would take the wizard as they have little to no physical damage since they have no scouts.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Stuf flike this can lead to some very interesting group combos. One i would like to see is Monk, Fury, Mystic, Berserker , Ranger, Swashbuckler. Berserker and Fury increasing groups physical prowess, Mystic's ward + Fury's Regen, Swashbucklers ramage + mess+ awsome defense debuffs , Rangers high damage (imo Rouge should have the best AC debuffs in game, and Pred shold have more damage, but get resisted for more, So if pred's special hit max is 300 and they only land for 180 because of targets armor, and rogues max hit is 200 and with their armor debuff they hit for 180, then in same group they would both be hitting alot better, making them a awsome combo for groups) If they had room to add a Dirge in place of a berserker, then they should though, as a Dirge would specificaly help the other scouts damage more thana  Berserker as it's their primary role to augment groups attacks as a bard.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Conj w/ Wizard and Necro w/ Warlock would work alot like the Rouge w/ Predator, The "lower" DPS class would have superior defense (or in this case Resist) debuffs that allow the higher DPS to deal closer to their full damage. Give them alla  base nuke that does 150 damage for 30power, and the type of element is dependent on their class. So sepritly they will have about same damage, but when together, the tier 2 dps class's debuffs give the tier1 dps the ability to truely excell. The enchanter's breese needs to be very usfull also as that would be their offerening, alowwing everyone to use skills that may cause more damage but be less efficant in power, because the target's will gain more power with breeze. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Such as if a soceror had a normal mage nuke of 150 for 30 power, they could have  a "burn out" type nuke that was 500 damage for 200 power (not a good power:damage ratio) They wold not want to use this offten by therself, because they would completely blow though their power and get overall less damage than if they had paced thereself with the 150 nuke. But if they grouped with an enchanter, they could use that nuke and not worry about going oop as the enchanter's breese is there to pick up the power lost from using the inefficant nuke, allowing soceror to increase their overall damage in the fight. Give enchanters about the same normal nukes as a soceror, but dont give them a overdrive-type nuke, so the enchanter is less effecitve with their own Breeze when seprit from a Soceror's massive damage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>So for the Mages, dps should be Sorceror/Summoner/Enchanter- Give <STRONG>Sorceror</STRONG> a seprit nuke chain that is "<STRONG>overdrive</STRONG>" that does heavy damage but high power cost (meaning they cant keep it going for long time w/out power regen of enchanter)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Give <STRONG>Summoner</STRONG> a <STRONG>DOT w/ heavy resistance debuff</STRONG>, allowing soceror's burn out nuke to deal more damage (DOT also allows summoner's caster dps pet to deal more max damage)  and give them a good <STRONG>DPS pet</STRONG> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>--Give Enchanter's breeze a greater importance - i know loosing GEB/robe is hard for people to take, but imagine if a stone droped that allowed anyone to tank a raid mob regardless of class, or a clickable heal rod that anyone could use to heal the entire raid. Everyone would be up-in-arms about toughs type of items, no matter how long you camp them or how hard the quest, these items would completely nullify some classes' primary functions...thats how important the power regeneration role is to the enchanter class, but i do think these items need to be re-attunable now that they are much weaker--</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc><STRONG>Enchanters</STRONG> would get <STRONG>Breeze</STRONG> would augment the total amount of power avalible to the other 2 classes (and any other class for that mater) give them the same mage nuke as soceror/summoner, but inplace of the pet and DOT or burnout nuke, give them a heavy P<STRONG>ower Drain</STRONG> (and let this work on raid mobs!!) Damageing a healer/nuking mob's power supply is a crusial blow to the mob, that 300 power drained would be a 2x 500 damage soceror nukes and a TON of healing could have been done if that 300 power hadn't been drained by the enchanter. This drain could have same reuse wait as the Burnout nuke and Dot spell of conjuror's, cost 100 power, delaing 300 dmaage to target's power. ! minute sounds like a good reuse wait, or perhaps 30 seconds. But that is what testing is for :smileywink: </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>-- as a side note, Summoner's DOT/debuff would have a 1 min duration, 1 min reuse (so only able on one more a t a time, but can keep going continually) and cost 50 power, and in total it would do about 250 damage durring that 1 min time frame.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>These skills make them decient when seprit, but unstoppable when together!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>This same como of classes works for the Fighter class aswell. If Guard tanks, Paladins heals allow guard to tank better(longer), where as if seprit, guard couldnt heal, and paladin would be getting interupted and heal for less than normal. Seprit their defense total would be about =, but together it would be greatly better for both. Monk/Bruiser would make this even better by increaseing aggro management, and if a Brawler was tanking a mob, the Guardian's Guard would prove VERY effective, because anytime the brawler would have been hit, the guaridan would intercept it, but the Brawler would rarely get hit, making them tank together wonderfuly.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Priests can also do this mutual increase in effectiveness. Ward + Regen works very well, and if Reactives also worked behind a ward like regen does, this would be a perfect set up. Make it to where their "special" heals of each class cost the elast power and are the most effcient. On hard encounters with only one healer, these special abilities shouldnt beable to hold up on their own, requireing singlehealer to resort to less power efficient direct heals to keep up with damage at the cost of looseing total healing potiential, but if u have all 3 healing classes, or even just 2, they should beable to keep up, and since they are most efficant, the priest's together will heal (or prevent in the ward's case) alot more HP that they would have sepritly. allow all buffs to stack, and give them eacha  unique effec tot them so overlaping them wont be an issue (like if 4 buffs had a stamina increase, this would be too much stacked together, but if 1 of the 4 buffs had Str, other had Agil, one had wisdom, and other had int, then it would work much better) Also, each of the Priest's direct heals and special heals could have side effects that cator to their classes "focus". Like warden's Regen providing elemental resist increase, and Fury's increaseing damage of target and add a DS to target with their regen. Each should heal the same, but one could have a offensive aspect when the other has a defensive. Templars reactive could increase target's mitigation while the Inquizitor's would lower target's damage when they strike the recipiant of the reactive, Mystic's ward could greatly increase recipiants offensive stats while ative then provide a small heal when it brakes, and a Defiler's Ward would decrease attacker's offensive stats while in effect and provide a small disease nuke to attack when it brakes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>There are so many ways to make classes complement eachother,  that we could brake out of that mold that is "who heals the best" and "who tanks the best" or "who has best DPS" and get into an mind-set of "what group combo would provide the best effect total vs this encounter" and "hmm if my heal can do this what hapens if i mix in your heal on this tank vs that tank.." and "these two classes are LFG, which would help us out the best? more damage overall or slightly more  healing or a mittle CC and breeze?"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Form exciting and unqie combos, find out what works good and go with it, thats how i want this game to be, not the trite</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Tank, Healer, Optional 2nd healer or dps, DPS,DPS, DPS groups</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Ill be back on later to continue with this reply</FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span>

[Silversnow]

<blockquote><hr>RexTenebrarum wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheWays wrote:<BR> <P>... So, how about instead of complaining that your DPS is going to get cut with the increase of your tanking abilities, you start asking for a slight dps boost and restrictions to medium armors.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd gladly turn in my heavy armour for VLA (if they can come up with something else then a robe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), if that would mean we could do higher DPS. I understand not all zerkers want to go that way, so asking for a slight to medium boost in DPS and restricting armour to medium only, might make everybody happy..</P> <P>That does leave the question however why assassins get to wear medium armour and are going to be top DPS :smileywink:</P><hr></blockquote>We get to wear medium armor because it's not any different from light armor no matter what the pretty higher numbers on mitigation say. I'm not sure why people seem to have a hate on for assassins but the medium armor is pure crap. The only time i ever see any wearing medium armor is if they managed to get a fabled medium armor that has good stats.If you had a fighter class go walk up to a group and hit a group mob in light armor and then had an assassin wearing medium armor ebon armor go do the same thing i garentee you the assassin gets smoked in 3 skill hits.I've had stupid tundra jack walk up on me and 2 shot me while i see someone in leather hitting on something get attack by him and it takes a few moments for him to turn around and decide to run away.If you guys really have a hard on for medium armor you can have it and die.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IvarIronheart wrote:<BR> <P>On a side note, Guage, isn't Sigon equipped on an entirely different tier than you? Where you have legendary/treasured mix he had a large amount of fabled gear mixed with legendary(and this was before he dropped his eq2players profile, his current gear lineup is no doubt better). Is this disparity also reflected in his skill quality(ie adept 3s/masters over a mix of adept1s and adept 3s).</P> <P>Details like this go a long way towards defusing generalizations such as "A guardian out DPS's my monk!!"</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have two fabled weapons:  Royal Great Flail and Ancient Combine Flail. For crush immune mobs I have a pair of cestus (pierce) and a pair of cestii (slash).  I have no treasured weapons anymore. I have 10 adept 3s (almost every combat skill, among others).</P> <P>Sigon has numerous setups, but most importantly he uses Staff of the Boar on the particular raid I'm referencing, which has similiar stats and the same proc as the RGF I was using.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:02 AM</span>

[Tarindel]

The notable discontent around the upcoming changes to the berserker class have to do largely with two things: 1) Berserkers were originally advertised as a DPS-heavy class, and fighters were originally envisioned to have the best sustained DPS of any class.  That's why most of us picked them, because we wanted to do DPS.  To have that changed this late in the game is frustrating at best, since there's no way to change classes short of starting a new character. 2) Berserkers have little to no utility.  If you take away DPS, all they really have left is tanking, which is pretty much what a guardian is.  The downside of only being able to tank, is that, like healing, it's not a stackable role.  You only need one per group. I agree that berserkers are not balanced right now (especially considering monks and bruisers are supposed to be more offensive oriented than we are), and I have no problems with them being put in-line.  However, when being put in-line also changes the fundamental nature of the class by removing the thing that caused most people to pick the class in the first place, then you're going to get a lot of discontent, which is what we're seeing now. If SOE is smart, they will keep the DPS difference between the tiers small.  That way, people will still be able and willing to use warriors and healers in DPS roles if the other classes aren't available.  What I don't want to see is classes starting to be excluded because the group already has a healer or a tank and the class doesn't have anything else to offer the group.  Outside of that, the only other good option is to give tanks and healers some better utility to make up for their lack of DPS. It's my firm belief that ALL classes should have a viable, stackable role in groups.  The concern is that post-rebalancing, non-DPS classes won't.  And that hurts tanks the most, because they are by far the most populous class. <div></div>

[Cuz]

<DIV>Playing the [Removed for Content], I'll ask this: how many zerkers wanting DPS at the price of some deffence would complain that they can't tank raid mobs? I'm not accusing any of you, but I'm sure we'd see it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also to whom ever said that swashs should be "king" of buffs if the preds get the best damage of the rogue class, what the hell would the bard line be good for?</DIV>

[angan]

One suggestion, save your breath till the revamp is out, that too if you are still around <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Techneman]

<P>i'll believe it when i see it.  according to that pyramid, a wizard currently falls below group 4 and above group 5.  Unless they quadruple my spell damage, or nerf other classes into the oblivion, i dont see this happening.  Its a nice dream though</P> <P>Tech</P>

[Ethelwo]

<P>Let me see:</P> <P>Fighters, fight</P> <P>Scouts, scout</P> <P>Healers, heal</P> <P>Casters, cast</P> <P>SOE new version:</P> <P>Scouts, fight and scout</P> <P>healers, heal</P> <P>Casters, cast</P> <P>Fighters, just stand there and get hit</P>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>Let me see:</P> <P>Fighters, fight</P> <P>Scouts, scout</P> <P>Healers, heal</P> <P>Casters, cast</P> <P>SOE new version:</P> <P>Scouts, fight and scout</P> <P>healers, heal</P> <P>Casters, cast</P> <P>Fighters, just stand there and get hit</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yep, and there is going to be a top fighter for getting hit (guardian) sounds like if your not that chossen one your hossed, and only one fighter to a group ... two to a raid.  Wonder if they are going to make it so DPS doesn't stack.</P> <P>Blackoath<BR></P>

[Dimgroth]

I swear, everytime we think we can finally play how we want, get used to everything, enjoy the game..they turn everything upside down. Items, classes, combat, spells..nothing is safe from SOE and  apparently we are all their testbed for new and drastic changes.  <div></div>

[VonStein]

<P>Im cheating... LOL...</P> <P> </P> <P>Got a bruiser, a zerker, an SK, a Pally, a Guard, an Inquis, and a Warlock.... and just started a soon to be Swashbuckler...</P> <P>Figure with all the changes I'll still find One I enjoy playing....</P>

[Kyriel]

then you should be banned.

[Ethelwo]

I certainly hope my, Berserker gets sneek, pathfinding, evac and troubador buffs after patch.

[Kran]

<DIV>"Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy." <A href="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#archetypesFighter" target=_blank>http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#archetypesFighter</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now look again...</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fourth group: <UL> <LI>Berserker/Shadowknight <LI>Paladin/Guardian <HR> </LI></UL></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>WHAT IS WRONG HERE!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now read the discription of lets say bards..  <A href="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#archetypesScout" target=_blank>http://everquest2.station.sony.com/en/main.vm#archetypesScout</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And they are above us! GAH I'm so confused!<BR></DIV>

[Thelah]

They have said multiple times those descriptions are just fluff, not to be taken literally.

[snipes]

<DIV> LOL   people on here are so funny. No matter what sony does they whine and complain, and hell they havent even done it yet and look at it all. Why dont you wait to see what they actually do and how it is before you  jump on the  cry me a river band wagon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everytime I look on test forums all I see is whines and barely any actual people that report usefull information or actual information that helps the devs. ( those that do good job =) and keep up the good work&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey keep on whining , We all see were it got ya on the power regen items.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Daedan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[WolfSha]

<P>It never occoured to you that it might be a good idea for sony to get feed back on <EM>proposed</EM> changes <EM>before</EM> they spend a lot of development time making changes only to find 100's of people go "OMG you destroyed my class, i'm off".</P> <P>If the the people who play berserkers would rather have a lot more dps and less defence than a guard, but sony is trying to make all tanks more "tanky" due what they <EM>believe </EM>it is we want, then surely it's a good idea to let them know before they upset people? no? ok.....</P> <P>This thread didn't start as a while, and it's not really (mostly) turned into one.  Personally i'd just like some clarification as to whether my classes roll is going to be drastically altered.</P> <P>You may enjoy running around in the dark and being surprised when you run into something nasty, but personally i'd rather have at least an <EM>idea</EM> what's coming up ahead of me so i can plan for it :smileytongue:</P>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> snipesbl wrote:<BR> <DIV> LOL   people on here are so funny. No matter what sony does they whine and complain, and hell they havent even done it yet and look at it all. Why dont you wait to see what they actually do and how it is before you  jump on the  cry me a river band wagon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everytime I look on test forums all I see is whines and barely any actual people that report usefull information or actual information that helps the devs. ( those that do good job =) and keep up the good work&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But hey keep on whining , We all see were it got ya on the power regen items.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Daedan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> 5 stars for you good sir! I too tire of the complaining that goes on in this forum for changes that have yet to go into effect and no one has any "real" idea on how it will effect them. This of course does not encompass everyone, as many of the posts here are about voicing your concernc.. but then you have the cries that the wicked SoE is out to get them and there little classes too! <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I play a bruiser/assassin/warlock with a combined adventure level of 108 (41,44,23 consec) between the three of them, and have fun with each one of the classes. I have faced many a nerfs with each one of the classes and have still somehow managed to have fun playing with any one of them... and after these changes, I imagine that I will still be having fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  People really need to just calm down and stop typing about how they are going to leave the game if said changes go into effect because that is just rediculous and makes people like me who come to this forum to see any intelligent posts waste our time reading your posts and having to ask you to shut up and wait.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Thanks.</DIV>

[Spite]

<P>Let me just ay this - See that very last name in the Higherarchy? Templar. Thats me and look how they totally screwed up both of our 50 lvl spells. And its already done.  </P> <P>You are complaining becuase YOUR idea of what your class should do does not match theirs. My idea of a Templar is a Holy warrios and that wouldn't e the lowest rung of the ladder but it is in game terms. </P> <P> </P> <P>Don't confuse game mechanics and you idealized vision of a character.</P>

[WolfSha]

<P>Umm, excuse me, but we're not.. we're wonding if 7 months after release our roll is going to change.  That's not "our idealized vision" of what we think our characters should be.  It's us wondering whether our characters are that we've all spent a lot of time on are now going to change from <STRONG>what they are now and have been since launch</STRONG>.  </P> <P>We haven't got to this point and said "I don't like this class please change it to what i think it should be",  we're saying "We've got to this point and we're happy and now maybe you're going to change everything? Can you clarify what you're planning to do a bit more please?"</P> <P>Most people that picked zerker did so for the good mix of dps and tank.  Most people that picked templar did so to be a healer in plate armour.  If you were now told 7 months after launch that you migth not be able wear plate cause that's a tanks thing and from now on you'll be weaing v light i'm sure you have something to say about it.  You'd certainly want to know if it was true or not and might get heated thinking about the possibility!</P> <DIV>I have to say that as a) a healer and b) a defencive one (in plate) i'm not surprised by your position at the bottom.  Especally as this has been true since launch.  We've all got broken spells.  Zerkers basically get nothing now at 50, but this is about a potentally large class change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It way well be that MG's statements are unintenally misleading.  If that's the case then all well and good.  But we do have the right to ask, and express what our opions would be if it turned out that our fears are justified.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:10 PM</span>

[Spite]

<DIV>They are changing you to what you should have been in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at Zerkers like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Upside:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heaviest of armour and sheilds (shared with Guard)</DIV> <DIV>Greatest Veriety of Weapon Choice in game (shared with Guard)</DIV> <DIV>Best damage dealers amoung heavily armoured character</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Downside:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently ???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What they are doing is giving you a down side. Sorry if when you created your character it didnt exist but you should have one everyone else does.</DIV>

[GinasiBryn3r]

Well that is beyond [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], traditionally it should go mage->scout->fighter->priest [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] are assassins and rangers doing with the top mages, when they can wear medium especially.  Im a brigand and i have no prblem getting owned dps wise bye a mage but that the hell would they put a ranger in front of a rogue for? and especially in front of necros and conjurors.  Also why would they make SKs lower than Guardians? Guardians are already above them in DPS and tanking ability.  Somebody needs to rethink this. <div></div>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FiftyK wrote:<BR> <P>You are complaining becuase YOUR idea of what your class should do does not match theirs. My idea of a Templar is a Holy warrios and that wouldn't e the lowest rung of the ladder but it is in game terms.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We are "complaining" because they change THEIR idea of our subclass this far in the game. My idea of a zerker is much different even of the the one we currently have, and I know and accept  I'll never get that because it's a my personal vision of how the class should be. You compared that to how you saw a templar (and I agree with your comment) but you knew what you were getting when you picked your subclass.. SOE never changed THEIR idea of that class nor advertised them in a different way, and that's what bugging me.. they fundamentally want to change my subclass and shift it's focus..but class balancing is generally done during beta testing :smileywink:</P> <P>And to all the people who say I should shut up and stop making stupid, non-intelligent posts.. I'm sorry.. but I care about my character and the time I invested in it, and these forums are the only place where I can voice my concerns and let myself be heard...</P> <P>I agree with Wolfshark that SOE should have asked or at least talked to the community before hand, but since it's too late for that now i would like to have at least some basic information as to what they have planned..</P> <P>And before anybody says I should start another class <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I tried warlocks/assassins/mystic and a few others which i leveled at least to 25 to see how they were.. but it's just not my style.. the only ones that come close to my zerker in personal fun factor are my bruiser (lvl39) and my brigand (lvl27)..</P> <DIV>Take care,</DIV>

[James_UK]

Rangers and Assassins should be made to wear stupid little girly robes like the Wizards and Warlocks have to.<div></div>

[Kirotaan]

<span><blockquote><hr>James_UK wrote:Rangers and Assassins should be made to wear stupid little girly robes like the Wizards and Warlocks have to.<div></div><hr></blockquote>AHAHAHAHA I agree they should be confined to light armor or better yet sweat pants for sneaking up behind your pray and though you look like a float in the saint patty's day parade you move without sound lol</span><div></div>

[Kven]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kirotaan wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> James_UK wrote:<BR>Rangers and Assassins should be made to wear stupid little girly robes like the Wizards and Warlocks have to. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>AHAHAHAHA I agree they should be confined to light armor or better yet sweat pants for sneaking up behind your pray and though you look like a float in the saint patty's day parade you move without sound lol<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sure.  Just make us not have to be in melee range and deal with barrage / riposte when they get spun around.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The medium armor makes us POSSIBLY live through 1 riposte / barrage of a raid mob.  We don't mitigate for crap, so a 3k+ hit on a tank = 6k+ on us and that = death.  I play a 50 assassin and a 50 warlock.  I think they SHOULD be equal because of HOW they have to do their damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure a warlock can't take even 1 hit... but I get to sit in safety, pretty far away from the actual melee.  With my assassin, I have to be up in the fray and be able to eat 1 hit ( when raid mob turns, I usually get hit with at least 1 riposte before i can turn off attack ).  Not to mention when there's a bunch of adds the pain in the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] it is to first find what mob the Main Assist is on, and second to stay behind them.  With my warlock I can eat a bowl of popcorn during a raid and never lose DPS.  With my assassin I have to work my butt off for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They're balanced.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before you bring utility into the equasion, they have about the same utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins debuff a bit better (besides poison/disease - warlocks shine there) overall I think.  Assassins can interrupt epics using 3 skills.  [ 1 is on long timer tho ]. Assassins can evac / track / pathfinding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks have very nice group buffs / melee buffs.  Warlocks can stun epic mobs ( w/ AoE component to can't use on every raid ).  Warlocks can interrupt [kinda]. Warlocks can invis others.  Warlocks can root epic targets.  [ helps sometimes ]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those that think we should be on different DPS tiers just don't know the full facts.  Of course, this is all opinionated, but my view is that both shouold be about equal.  The medium armor is offset by warlocks safe distance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Stromul]

<span><blockquote><hr>WolfShark wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Umm, excuse me, but we're not.. we're wonding if 7 months after release our roll is going to change.  That's not "our idealized vision" of what we think our characters should be.  It's us wondering whether our characters are that we've all spent a lot of time on are now going to change from <strong>what they are now and have been since launch</strong>.  </p> <p>We haven't got to this point and said "I don't like this class please change it to what i think it should be",  we're saying "We've got to this point and we're happy and now maybe you're going to change everything? Can you clarify what you're planning to do a bit more please?"</p> <p><font color="#ccff00">Most people that picked zerker did so for the good mix of dps and tank.  Most people that picked templar did so to be a healer in plate armour.  If you were now told 7 months after launch that you migth not be able wear plate cause that's a tanks thing and from now on you'll be weaing v light i'm sure you have something to say about it.  You'd certainly want to know if it was true or not and might get heated thinking about the possibility!</font></p> <div>I have to say that as a) a healer and b) a defencive one (in plate) i'm not surprised by your position at the bottom.  Especally as this has been true since launch.  We've all got broken spells.  Zerkers basically get nothing now at 50, but this is about a potentally large class change.</div> <div> </div> <div>It way well be that MG's statements are unintenally misleading.  If that's the case then all well and good.  But we do have the right to ask, and express what our opions would be if it turned out that our fears are justified.</div> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class="date_text">06-27-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:10 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Great analogy there.  I picked a zerker for that mix of dps and armor.  People say we should do damage because of wearing armor hence being tanks.  I didn't sign up for a tank.  I signed up from what the website and manual said of the class.  Just like I'm sure Templars signed up for being a healer wearing plate! Do you hear zerkers complaining that Templars get to wear plate and heal?  Changing the class 7 months into the game is just wrong.  People have put too much time into their characters for this to happen.  A tweak is fine but a whole change is disheartening.</span><div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stromulis wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WolfShark wrote:<BR> <P>Umm, excuse me, but we're not.. we're wonding if 7 months after release our roll is going to change.  That's not "our idealized vision" of what we think our characters should be.  It's us wondering whether our characters are that we've all spent a lot of time on are now going to change from <STRONG>what they are now and have been since launch</STRONG>.  </P> <P>We haven't got to this point and said "I don't like this class please change it to what i think it should be",  we're saying "We've got to this point and we're happy and now maybe you're going to change everything? Can you clarify what you're planning to do a bit more please?"</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>Most people that picked zerker did so for the good mix of dps and tank.  Most people that picked templar did so to be a healer in plate armour.  If you were now told 7 months after launch that you migth not be able wear plate cause that's a tanks thing and from now on you'll be weaing v light i'm sure you have something to say about it.  You'd certainly want to know if it was true or not and might get heated thinking about the possibility!</FONT></P> <DIV>I have to say that as a) a healer and b) a defencive one (in plate) i'm not surprised by your position at the bottom.  Especally as this has been true since launch.  We've all got broken spells.  Zerkers basically get nothing now at 50, but this is about a potentally large class change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It way well be that MG's statements are unintenally misleading.  If that's the case then all well and good.  But we do have the right to ask, and express what our opions would be if it turned out that our fears are justified.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by WolfShark on <SPAN class=date_text>06-27-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:10 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Great analogy there.  I picked a zerker for that mix of dps and armor.  People say we should do damage because of wearing armor hence being tanks.  I didn't sign up for a tank.  I signed up from what the website and manual said of the class.  Just like I'm sure Templars signed up for being a healer wearing plate!<BR><BR>Do you hear zerkers complaining that Templars get to wear plate and heal?  Changing the class 7 months into the game is just wrong.  People have put too much time into their characters for this to happen.  A tweak is fine but a whole change is disheartening.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Once again it comes to the fact that Zerkers can take second best in the game, wear plate armor, put up way too high DPS numbers, use all weapons, and use shields. Right now you guys get the best of most worlds.. <STRONG><EM><U>SOMETHING HAD TO CHANGE!! </U></EM></STRONG></P> <P>Maybe what is changing is not the change that you would have picked.. but guess what? You do not get to choose what the change is, be it having to wear medium armor, using less weapons, lower DPS, etc..</P> <P>For crying out loud everyone that plays this game knows that Zerkers are overpowered.. so stop crying that your Uber class is now going to be on par with other classes in the game! You had your time in the sun and knowing Sony, your time will come around again.. </P> <P>It sucks that you are losing some DPS, but lets compare you to another tank class Bruisers (Who are in no way a [Removed for Content] class themselves!):</P> <P>Put out about the same DPS (Each class can out DPS the other givin different circumstances</P> <P>Zerkers get more weapons</P> <P>About the same utility (Bruisers get a small self heal)</P> <P>Zerkers get plate armor and WAY higher mitigation</P> <P>Bruisers get slightly higher avoidance (which in no way offsets the mitigation difference)</P> <P> You can compare Zerkers to every tank class there is as well as many scout classes and see how much more they are overpowered then the rest..which means the Sony nerf bat is coming. We all knew it was coming and if you did not, then I have this great beach front property here in Columbus Ohio you might be interested in!</P> <P>/rant off</P> <P> </P>

[Stromul]

<span><blockquote><hr>MakhailSammael wrote:<p>Once again it comes to the fact that Zerkers can take second best in the game, wear plate armor, put up way too high DPS numbers, use all weapons, and use shields. Right now you guys get the best of most worlds.. <strong><em><u>SOMETHING HAD TO CHANGE!! </u></em></strong></p> <p>Maybe what is changing is not the change that you would have picked.. but guess what? You do not get to choose what the change is, be it having to wear medium armor, using less weapons, lower DPS, etc..</p> <p>For crying out loud everyone that plays this game knows that Zerkers are overpowered.. so stop crying that your Uber class is now going to be on par with other classes in the game! You had your time in the sun and knowing Sony, your time will come around again.. </p> <p>It sucks that you are losing some DPS, but lets compare you to another tank class Bruisers (Who are in no way a [Removed for Content] class themselves!):</p> <p>Put out about the same DPS (Each class can out DPS the other givin different circumstances</p> <p>Zerkers get more weapons</p> <p>About the same utility (Bruisers get a small self heal)</p> <p>Zerkers get plate armor and WAY higher mitigation</p> <p>Bruisers get slightly higher avoidance (which in no way offsets the mitigation difference)</p> <p> You can compare Zerkers to every tank class there is as well as many scout classes and see how much more they are overpowered then the rest..which means the Sony nerf bat is coming. We all knew it was coming and if you did not, then I have this great beach front property here in Columbus Ohio you might be interested in!</p> <p>/rant off</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>You guys don't get it.  Have you ever played a zerker?  I'll agree they do little more damage than they should but no way should be dropped so down in the DPS chart.  If you ever played a zerker you would see it just plain fun.  Not because so called being overpower but just fun.  You could tank but not as good as a guardian and you could DPS but not as good as other classes.  What should be done is bring some of the other classes up not by nerfing but pumping them up just like they did to Wizards and Warlocks.  What people just fail to see with all the DPS parsing logs and such, when zerkers are doing alot of damage, alot of it comes from buffs from other group members.  Those damage buffs are not attributed to the caster but to the person it's on.  So, when zerkers attack mobs or groups of mobs you see these high numbers, part of it is  because we have these buffs on and we are getting hit making them go off.  This does not happen to Scouts or Mages because they are not the targets of the mob or these buffs.  This effect makes us jump up the charts.  Throw in some of our own buffs and skills and you can see why people feel they are overpowered.  I'd be curious to see if SOE attributed damage procs and buffs to the caster how much DPS would drop for fighters and how much higher the orginal casters would go.   Scouts should always do more damage in optimal conditions (debuffed mob and posistional attacks) but by no means should zerkers not be able to DPS.   We are freaking Berserkers!  In every other game we are melee damage dealers but why the hell are we relagate to being tanks in this game?</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Stromulis wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>In every other game we are melee damage dealers but why the hell are we relagate to being tanks in this game?</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because this game is different.  Surely you knew that when you typed that line.  What a weak excuse.</P> <P>The point is your class, and almost every fighter class is overpowered as far as damage dealing goes.  Since damage is generally traded for defense and your class is one of the most defensive in the game, something has to change.</P> <P>When you consider that you do have a bit less defense than a guardian, but better aggro management and generally better DPS...</P> <P>There you go.</P> <P>It amazes me that the zerkers have had the class they have had for 7 months anyway, what with the original rampage and bloodlust and everything else.</P> <P>Bottom line without even talking about the scouts at all is you guys should never outdamage bruisers or monks, because we should have the highest DPS in the fighter tree.</P> <P>The fact that you can and do, while wearing plate, using sheilds, using more weapons and having better aggro abilities and more HP, is insulting.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 AM</span>

[WolfSha]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FiftyK wrote:<BR> <DIV>They are changing you to what you should have been in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at Zerkers like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Upside:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heaviest of armour and sheilds (shared with Guard)</DIV> <DIV>Greatest Veriety of Weapon Choice in game (shared with Guard)</DIV> <DIV>Best damage dealers amoung heavily armoured character</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Downside:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently ???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What they are doing is giving you a down side. Sorry if when you created your character it didnt exist but you should have one everyone else does.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmmm... downsides compared to other plate tanks...</P> <P>Not a tough as a guardian, so will never MT if there's a guard about, and there normally is.</P> <P>Can't heal, rez or give mitigation to a group memeber like a pally</P> <P>Can't life tap, evac, fiegn death, target debuff or call a dps pet like a SK</P> <DIV>Zerkers have none of the nice little 'extras' that crusaders have, so i'd say we do have some downsides.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there's a guardian in the group or raid he/she WILL be MT.  All other plate tanks need <EM>something </EM>to make them viable group members, whether it's the ability to heal or to evac, to debuff the target, do dps or whatever.  Currently the only thing zerkers really have is dps and a couple of buffs, and when the buffs no-longer stack (post combat changes) we're not even gonna be much use for buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we end up with the same or similar dps as a guardian there will be reason what-so-ever to take a zerker in a group that already has a any kind of plate tank as it will be a wast of a space.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to say i agree with gage, both monks and bruisers currently need a big helping hand.  Compared to them zerkers <EM>are</EM> currently over powered.  Scouts need some love too, i don't think many zerkers have a big problem with doing less damage than a scout or a bruiser, given that our defences are lot higher.  I'd never even considder thinking that out-dpsing a monk is fair.  It's simply not.  brawlers <EM>should</EM> out-dps zerkers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's the prospect of doing very little more than a guard that makes me cry! :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone on the zerker board suggested having a tank/dps switch that meant we start off with good tanking and low dps and could massively debuff our defence while buffing our attacks to play our current secondary dps roll, just not at the same time as tanking</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know what people will say... "wizards and scouts don't get a 'tank mode' buff", but a group or raid isn't going to turn and say "sorry, we already have 1 dsp person, we don't need another".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imagine is dps or healing was completely non-stacking in a group, ie if a group already had a healer and a dps person never wanted another one of either.  That would upset people too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You see groups with a guardian and a zerker/monk/bruiser for the dps.  You see groups with a guardian and a paladin for extra heals.  You see groups with a guardian and a SK for the dps, evacs and debuffs.  You <STRONG><EM>don't </EM></STRONG>see a lot of groups running around with two guardians in it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm worried that after these changes zerkers are going to need a new flag - "Looking for group that doesn't have a plate tank".</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 AM</span>

[Stromul]

It's pretty funny, I see people suggesting this switch buff that would lower our defense and increase our offense.  I kinda seem to remember this from somewhere hmm....   Got it!  It's called Berzerk. <span>:smileywink:</span> Well that's how the skill used to be.  Our DPS would go up at the expense of defense.  They should not have gotten rid of the downside and people might not be complaining about the class. <div></div>

[Spite]

<DIV> <P>Not a tough as a guardian, so will never MT if there's a guard about, and there normally is.</P> <P>>Umm, you out DPS a guardian in the proposed changes and how are you not as "tough". </P> <P>Can't heal, rez or give mitigation to a group memeber like a pally</P> <P>>Duh, you chose a Berzerker. Can they dual weild weapons? How about a tower sheild? sure they can give Mit - can't you give avoidance and such? </P> <P>Can't life tap, evac, fiegn death, target debuff or call a dps pet like a SK</P> <P>>Refer to pally explanation.</P> <DIV>Zerkers have none of the nice little 'extras' that crusaders have, so i'd say we do have some downsides</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>Here you are not pointing out your downsides but upsides to the other classes you could have chosen. If you want those things play those classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[WolfSha]

<P>*crys with frustration*</P> <P>I didn't want them over the dps.  That's why i chose the dps.  That was in response to somone saying zerkers have no down sides. </P> <P>I was mearly pointing out we do have down sides.  </P> <P>I didn't say i wanted those things over what i've got,  I'm just saying that the worth off a class is not attack+defence as there are a lot of things that crusaders can do that warriors cannot and you'd expect warriors to have a slight edge on the attack+defence side to balance that.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not as tough means zerker dies quicker than a guardian when tanking.</DIV><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:35 PM</span>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WolfShark wrote:<BR> <DIV><I><B>from ask soe #37 <A href="http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43" target=_blank>http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43</A></B></I> <STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><I><B>Sassee:</B> Part of the changes coming to spells and combat arts is to adjust how much damage the various classes do in relation to each other. Can you tell us how the different subclasses will rank in relative damage potential?</I><BR>  </FONT><FONT color=#66ffff><B>Steve "Moorgard" Danuser:</B> Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest.<BR><BR>First group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Wizard/Warlock </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Assassin/Ranger</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Second group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Brigand/Swashbuckler</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Third group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Troubador/Dirge </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Bruiser/Monk </FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Fourth group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Berserker/Shadowknight </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Paladin/Guardian</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Fifth group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Fury/Warden </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Defiler/Mystic </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Inquisitor/Templar</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Keep in mind that these aren't absolutes. </FONT><STRONG><FONT color=#66ffff>A Guardian who concentrates on damage output and upgrades his or her offensive abilities could surpass a Berserker who focuses on defensive capabilities.</FONT> </STRONG></DIV> <P>So does that conversely mean that a zerker that "concentrates on defence" can out defence a guardian "concentrating on offence"?</P> <P>And what we talking about here anyway?  A guard with adept 3 offence skill vs a zerker that has left all the offence skills at app 1?</P> <P>Is this is really just "if you have all adept 1's in every skill, zerker has more offence and guard has more defence but that can swap round with adept 3's vs app 1's"?, Ie what we have now, in which case fair enough, i guess... maybe.... but it is a shift of role fot the class very late in the game that i won't be happy about....</P> <P>Or are we talking a(nother) major nerf to zerker dps here moorgard? Ie down close to a guardians offence?</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>If we're going to become very similar to guards in offence i can cope with that i guess provided our defence is close too.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><SPAN class=time_text>This is not a moan, but i would like to know where the class is going....</SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by WolfShark on <SPAN class=date_text>06-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>zerkers def is close to if not better then a guards.... and zekrs are the best dps in the game... in raids... yeah I think that is a bid much

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>I want to see the class defence and base HP list. If my Zerker loses more dps then he already has lost and still cant tank as well as a Guardian then I'm out of here. I will invest no more time in a game that just nerfs away my reasons for playing a class. I chose a berserker for his dps output and never complained that he didn't have the heals and wards of crusaders or the HPs and defence abilities of the Guardian. If my choosen class is going to be religated to the trash heap of dps and still doesn't have heals, wards or the defence to off set the dps nerf he becomes the bottom of the barrel and worthless. I will not feed a dime to a company that stole my mojo. I will go play something else. Maybe a game that is run by a company that doesn't change the ground rules of each class all the time based on the complaints of it's player base. You fix things that are broken you don't take away something from one class just because someone who plays another doesn't like it. You fix whats wrong with the other class.</P> <P>All I've heard is that mobs are getting stronger and my class is getting weeker. Wow, what a fun game for me, huh.</P> <P>As it is right now, I berserk alot, but almost never get haste from it. Berserker haste  is so rare as to be almost non exisitant. Plus the emote for berserk interupts any skill I use. I dont get berserker haste, just a self interupt. This game is [Removed for Content] and it seem to be getting more [Removed for Content] with every new patch. tick tick tick the time for the final log off is on the clock.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>you mean you chose a zerker casue he was the best tank and best dps in the game??? hrm how interesting.. how would you ever come to the decision to play such a unusual class... I agree about not changing the rules... however everyone knew zerkers are and were overpowerd.... if ya want dps be a warlokc/wiz if ya want tank be a warrior.... if ya wanna be both play a different game... diablo 2 barbians took dmg and dealt it well.. have fun

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ginfress wrote:<BR> <DIV>SoE destroyed swg with the combat revamp, wouldnt suprise me if they destroy eq2 too. WTB new dev team that knows how to run an MMORPG in a proper manner.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>now taht I can agree with...

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kvenau wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>I want to see the class defence and base HP list. If my Zerker loses more dps then he already has lost and still cant tank as well as a Guardian then I'm out of here. I will invest no more time in a game that just nerfs away my reasons for playing a class. I chose a berserker for his dps output and never complained that he didn't have the heals and wards of crusaders or the HPs and defence abilities of the Guardian. If my choosen class is going to be religated to the trash heap of dps and still doesn't have heals, wards or the defence to off set the dps nerf he becomes the bottom of the barrel and worthless. I will not feed a dime to a company that stole my mojo. I will go play something else. Maybe a game that is run by a company that doesn't change the ground rules of each class all the time based on the complaints of it's player base. You fix things that are broken you don't take away something from one class just because someone who plays another doesn't like it. You fix whats wrong with the other class.</P> <P>All I've heard is that mobs are getting stronger and my class is getting weeker. Wow, what a fun game for me, huh.</P> <P>As it is right now, I berserk alot, but almost never get haste from it. Berserker haste  is so rare as to be almost non exisitant. Plus the emote for berserk interupts any skill I use. I dont get berserker haste, just a self interupt. This game is [Removed for Content] and it seem to be getting more [Removed for Content] with every new patch. tick tick tick the time for the final log off is on the clock.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So you want to keep your plate armor, your tanking abilities (while not the BEST [and why should it be], still superb), your insane buffs ( I love berserker buffs... ), and your DPS?</P> <P>Sure! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>As far as I can tell from what I've heard concerning the upcoming changes, you'll be leaving.  I hope you find a game that suits what you're looking for.</P> <P>Though I think it's pretty funny what you said here:</P> <P><EM>" I chose a berserker for his dps output and never complained that he didn't have the heals and wards of crusaders or the HPs and defence abilities of the Guardian."</EM></P> <P>Well I sure hope not... you had insane damage coupled with great tanking ( again, not the best, but really good ) and some of the best buffs in the game for a group.<BR>So we're glad you didn't moan for heals and wards <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  And you didn't wanna top the defense chart too?  How noble of you.</P> <P> </P> <P>.. Seriously.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>  /agree

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WolfShark wrote:<BR> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gage wrote:</P> <P>Nope, one some raid mobs Sigon can out DPS me when I'm going full tilt, depending.  (I don't tank raids).</P> <P>Or, he gets [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] close, like probably within 30 dps or so.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Well that sucks! Boooo to that!  Hopefully these changes will mean you will be doing the damage you should be compared to other fighters.  Ie more than zerkers and certainly more than guards.</P> <P>I just hope zerkers are still defensively inferior and offencively superior enough to guards to make them interesting and different.</P> <P>Message Edited by WolfShark on <SPAN class=date_text>06-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:54 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I knw your idea of how it shoud work but as it is.... zerkers do about 3-4X the dmg of guards... and guards can tank about .2X better then zerks... so now apparently... it will be a more equal ratio.... if that is not good... the suggestion of making zerks [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] tanks and downing their dps at least below warlocks.... could work also</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WolfShark wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FiftyK wrote:<BR> <DIV>They are changing you to what you should have been in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at Zerkers like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Upside:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heaviest of armour and sheilds (shared with Guard)</DIV> <DIV>Greatest Veriety of Weapon Choice in game (shared with Guard)</DIV> <DIV>Best damage dealers amoung heavily armoured character</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Downside:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently ???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What they are doing is giving you a down side. Sorry if when you created your character it didnt exist but you should have one everyone else does.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmmm... downsides compared to other plate tanks...</P> <P>Not a tough as a guardian, so will never MT if there's a guard about, and there normally is.</P> <P>Can't heal, rez or give mitigation to a group memeber like a pally</P> <P>Can't <FONT color=#ffff66>life tap</FONT>, evac, fiegn death, target debuff or <FONT color=#ffff00>call a dps pet</FONT> like a SK</P> <DIV>Zerkers have none of the nice little 'extras' that crusaders have, so i'd say we do have some downsides.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there's a guardian in the group or raid he/she WILL be MT.  All other plate tanks need <EM>something </EM>to make them viable group members, whether it's the ability to heal or to evac, to debuff the target, do dps or whatever.  Currently the only thing zerkers really have is dps and a couple of buffs, and when the buffs no-longer stack (post combat changes) we're not even gonna be much use for buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we end up with the same or similar dps as a guardian there will be reason what-so-ever to take a zerker in a group that already has a any kind of plate tank as it will be a wast of a space.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to say i agree with gage, both monks and bruisers currently need a big helping hand.  Compared to them zerkers <EM>are</EM> currently over powered.  Scouts need some love too, i don't think many zerkers have a big problem with doing less damage than a scout or a bruiser, given that our defences are lot higher.  I'd never even considder thinking that out-dpsing a monk is fair.  It's simply not.  brawlers <EM>should</EM> out-dps zerkers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's the prospect of doing very little more than a guard that makes me cry! :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone on the zerker board suggested having a tank/dps switch that meant we start off with good tanking and low dps and could massively debuff our defence while buffing our attacks to play our current secondary dps roll, just not at the same time as tanking</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know what people will say... "wizards and scouts don't get a 'tank mode' buff", but a group or raid isn't going to turn and say "sorry, we already have 1 dsp person, we don't need another".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imagine is dps or healing was completely non-stacking in a group, ie if a group already had a healer and a dps person never wanted another one of either.  That would upset people too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You see groups with a guardian and a zerker/monk/bruiser for the dps.  You see groups with a guardian and a paladin for extra heals.  You see groups with a guardian and a SK for the dps, evacs and debuffs.  You <STRONG><EM>don't </EM></STRONG>see a lot of groups running around with two guardians in it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm worried that after these changes zerkers are going to need a new flag - "Looking for group that doesn't have a plate tank".</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by WolfShark on <SPAN class=date_text>06-28-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:44 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ok I was with you till you started with the comparison on Shadow Knights, we are the weakest heavy tank in the game ... our one claim was doing good dps and a debuf we get at 50.  Dps will now be gone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lifetaps .... they suck and they always have sucked and will in all likely hood always suck (ward falls into this catagory to, it sucks also)</DIV> <DIV>evac ... admit I don't have this yet, but from talking to shadow knights, its mostly used as travel spell versus a combat spell, due to it having a long casting time ... but it could be useful if no scout is available ... so will give you that</DIV> <DIV>Debuffs, till our 50 debuf most of our debuffs suck, plus every class has some form of debuffs</DIV> <DIV>FD ... Can be usefull, but has some draw backs, in some zones is very buggy, the target loses all buffs, also if it fails mobs hit you with no mitigation till you stand back up</DIV> <DIV>Dps Pet ... well we are going to be the same level as Beserkers on dps, so that is kind of mute point</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and you forgot somethings about Shadow Knights</DIV> <DIV>No range item ... no stats/hp's/power etc.</DIV> <DIV>Alot harder time holding aggro</DIV> <DIV>no direct group hp buffs (we do get a single target stat buff, but so does every class from what I've seen)</DIV> <DIV>only one group buff that only upgrades attacks (having one also seems to be the problem with aggro)</DIV> <DIV>And all of our abilities suck power like a hoover</DIV> <DIV>No haste ability (strange Guardians get that never understood that logic)</DIV> <DIV>No combat arts that work when stunned</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted both beserkers and Shadow Knights are going to be hoosed by this ... Think one reason you saw some guardians cheering on the scouts when they called for nerfing us to death (funny how they are now crying like 5 year olds, now that they removed buff stacking).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So Shadow Knights have less hp's, mitigation, power problems, a lot harder time on aggro, and this is offest by being able to cast lifetaps that are totally ineffiecent.  At my level I have two direct lifetaps, If I use both I heal myself for 106pts and do a grand total of around 240pts of damage, sorry but that doesn't give me warm feeling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well it will be intreasting how many tanks besides guardians are left after this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>V/R</DIV> <DIV>Blackoath</DIV><p>Message Edited by Margen on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:15 PM</span>

[WolfSha]

<P>Ooops, not quite what i meant, i wasn't claiming SK's were uber,  you're lifetaps suck and need fixing. </P> <P>For what it's worth I think you'll be hit very hard by this too.  I'm sorry if it sounded like i was making you out to be the "bard of tanks", i know you're certaily not, and that's not how i meant it.  I spend a lot of time grouped with a level 50 SK and i know what you can and can't do.</P> <P>My point was that at least you have <EM>something</EM> even if it's not a lot - someone suggested there's nothing a zerker can't do at the moment, i was trying to answer that point.  Pallys are the top dog for utility-tanks and it's a little unfair that your utility doesn't match theirs when you currently give up some of your tanking ability compared with theirs for the added dps you get over them.</P> <P> </P> <P>This whole situation has become a lot clearer as of last night though....</P> <P>We got an interesting glimpse of what things will be like after the combat changes last night because sony mistakenly put the "no buff stacking" change into live.</P> <P>Our HP buffs no-longer stack.  Fair enough, there will be other changes like mobs having less HP / dmg output that will balance that change.  I don't see that as a problem in itself, and it brings us back into line with monks etc who have rightly been wonding why they have less HP <EM>and</EM> less mitigation.</P> <P><STRONG>The big problem is that they don't stack with a guardians HP buffs.</STRONG></P> <P>All fighters have 3 rolls, with varying amounts of focus on each depending on sub-class:</P> <P>1. Tank</P> <P>2. Dps</P> <P>3. Utility</P> <P>If there's a guardian in the group then any other tanks primary roll goes straight out the window and they have to rely on rolls 2 and 3 to justify their group spot.</P> <P>Now they tell us we can't dps either.  Our secondary roll goes out he window.</P> <P>So we're less with utility.  Now it seems our buffs don't stack with the guardians ones.  As the guards HP buffs are better, it's ours that don't stick.  Even more annoyingly, the only other 'group utility' buff a zerker gets is 10% group haste....  which happens to be a secondary effect of the HP buff that we can't cast.</P> <P>So when grouped with a guard, a zerker cannot tank or dps or group buff... great</P> <P>Pallys still get to heal.  SK's get a bit of (fairly lame i'll admit) utility....  what are zerkers supposed to do now?  I can't see what possible value a zerker can bring to a group with a guardian in any more.</P> <P>Perhaps that's the plan and we're supposed to be mutually exclusive - you have one or the other, but that seams a bit unfair - it's not like you have to choose between taking a wizard or warlock as only one can dps at a time.  </P> <P>It does seem to be the way they're going - guards and zerkers will be 'merged' back together to make "warriors"... hmmm... remind anyone of a game they used to play?</P> <P>The trouble is that i have a few guard friends i like playing with, as i'm sure other zerkers do too.   I guess we'll have to 'leapfrog' the tanking - taking turns to be useful while the other one gets coffee and hope the other group members don't mind...</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><STRONG>One thing though (don't want to incite a riot - i know how us zerkers get angry easily... ) As they <EM>accidentally </EM>applied some of the combat changes, maybe we got the nerf half without the love half and it won't be this bad... </STRONG></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text><STRONG>*fingers crossed* :smileytongue:</STRONG></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:48 AM</span>

[Margen]

<DIV>Sorry Wolf if I showed a bit of touchness on the utility role, specially lifetaps, its amazing how many people I've seen on this board say Shadow Knights can lifetap so we have no reason to complain (showing that they have no idea what they are talking about).  So mention of lifetaps make me go GGRRRRR LOL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that the buff stacking is a serious issue, IMHO by all means there should be a stop of buffs from the same line stacking from the same type of sub-class, but from what I understand, with this premuture release of the buff changes, your buffs won't stack either (haven't played today doing a 12hour shift <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) which makes no sense to me, kind of kills any chance or reason for having a second tank.  Specially since there is little reason for split tanking (where Beserkers aggro ability would be useful).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes Shadow Knights have limited utility, but from what I've seen it really doesn't make a big difference in combat, our debuffs (which at least they work now which for a while they didn't even do that) till our 50th Level one, really don't make a difference in mob dps or mitigation.  Evac i am sure will be nice when I hit 44, but really not a defining ability, specially with every Scout with a better one (which is fine btw).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they put the needs for off/split tanking in the game, and improved Shadow Knight aggro up to Beserkers (beserkers thru buffing group/Shadow Knights thru debuffs that matter).  That might adress the concern I have, giving both a defined role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personaly would of liked seeing us provide good DPS and the ability to tank if needed.  We wouldn't be as good as a guardian/pally in pure tanking, and we wouldn't be doing the damage of Rogue/Predeters, but we shouldn't be gimped in DPS to the level we are getting hints at right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well they better be very careful, or the fighter community could be completly gutted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>V/R</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blackoath</DIV>

[Vak Mallek]

/agree  After these changes I am very fearful as an SK that our DPS will be non-existent.  We've been nerfed to death with every change.  Our lifetaps are useless.  Getting hit by mobs for 1k + and getting healed (by chance) for 34 hps is an insult.  Dumbing down our DPS, keeping the current lifetap system in place, having no place in a raid, and not fixing broken spells will be the undoing of SK's. I love to play my SK and from looking at the new chart/changes it looked promising for us in the future, however, after every change the truth comes out and they leave us a little further behind. <div></div>

[Deadjest]

<P>  Currently I play a 47 SK and I have to say SKs are not very well done and probably should have the number 3 spot on the tanking chart.   We should have better Self Tank buffs and really nice Anti Magic buffs but should be self only for the most part, being evil you are going to be a selfish class which should be our down side.</P> <P>  But I have to say as a role player and a person who likes history ( ya I know, we have no SKs in history ) I do <STRONG>NOT</STRONG> think SKs should out DPS Bezerkers.   The power of a SK should be Self Buffs and Crippling Debuffs.   I know that SKs wont be happy with a SK saying that but lets be honest, SKs should be good DPS but not on the scale of a Bezerkers or Brawlers, our power should be in other areas as I have said.</P> <P>  I think part of the issue is if Sony actualy did the class correctly to make us properly different, it would have a wide range of effects which would cause them to do a lot of work and thinking.   Buffing yourself or group effects you or them, debuffing a mob has a lesser effect on gimpy mobs but a powerful effect on Boss Mobs.  But it would give roles.</P> <P>  The power of the Bezerker is his abilty to do great damage.</P> <P>  And yes I do see a Bezeker out damaging the Brawlers and its logical that they would, their name sake alone with any amout of IQ will tell you that.   The issue is that going bezerk should come at a great cost and that cost is defence.    Except Mental, their Mental Defence should also go up by a VERY good portion when they go Bezerk, its hard to charm R etarded Fury.   </P> <P>  Bezekers should basicly have a on and off mode.   On Off mode they tank 4th best and dps 4th best and in bezerk mode they DPS in the number 1 slot for tanks and their defence is puts them in 6th place behind the brawlers.   Many people forget that a Bezerker on the field that was on your team raised the moral of the team in a fight, Bezerkes should get a limited Utility.   Such as when they go Bezerk they add a small percentage of haste to all the physical class that are grouped with them, say 15%.</P> <P>That is called balance.   It may not match what people want but it is closer to history and logical on a game lvl.</P>

[Vak Mallek]

/agree <div></div>

[Encantador]

<DIV>I can almost agree with this. Just need a couple more adjustments to make it 'historically' more correct.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) When in berserker mode the zerker should have a say 10percent chance to hit a random person in their group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) When 'on' mode is finished there will be a 'cool down' mode where the berserker is defenseless (just stands there and gets hit) and does NO damage whatsoever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berzerkers were also notorious for charging into the worst of the fight ignoring their comrades, so make them uncontrollably attack the biggest group of mobs no matter where it is and randomly charge off after any mobs it sees.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and many people forget that berzerkers terrified their own comrades who stayed well behind them, so while berzerk no one else can stand within melee range of the berzerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmm talking of terrify, often berzerkers terrified their opponents too, so how about adding in a chance to fear the opponent? Or perhaps get the mobs to ignore the berserker and go for the easier targets?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There that seems reasonable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by encanta on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:24 AM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Well you have to have a careful balance of realism vs fantasy.   Somtimes realism can have a very adverse effect on gaming so you have to pick what is best for all.    I call it the Hero System,  1 - 10.   1 where the game is totally realistic and death and carnage everywhere and 10 is where every char walks around as a God and can barely be hurt, I prefer a nice middle ground myeself.   Fun enough to enjoy but relistic enough that I have a basic understanding of how things work and a foundation to work off of.</P> <P>And the other issue is eviromental.   I think befor you should be a developer you should have to play some pen and paper RPGs to get a good understanding of gaming in general.</P> <P>Part or the gaming problem is the issue with the idiot concept of one tank holding agro and a ton of mobs.   That is one of the most short bus ideas of thinking that I have seen since EQ first came out and for some reason its still here.   There should be a minium of 2 tanks per group and agro should try to be divided between them.  The rest of the group is Healers and DPS/Utility chars.</P> <P>Agro should have a pyramid effect, when a tank taunts, each mob after the first one recives less and less effect of the taunt till you reach a point where no more then 3 mobs can be taunted and you have your second tank step in and take up the slack while the other chars help finish off the mobs of the primary tank.</P> <P>There is more to it but I think a huge part of our problems is Tanking and the Eviroment.   The eviroment is for tanking is not set up right so it extends its effects down the chain of chars.</P> <P>THAT is somthing Sony should be thinking about BEFOR they work on tanks, after that we might have a truely awsome system where other Mmorpgs will be green with envy when they see how dynamic EQ is and how smart our player base is with the tatics they employ to take down a mulitude of mobs in a big battle.</P> <P> </P>

[MakhailSamma]

 <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>Well you have to have a careful balance of realism vs fantasy.   Somtimes realism can have a very adverse effect on gaming so you have to pick what is best for all.    I call it the Hero System,  1 - 10.   1 where the game is totally realistic and death and carnage everywhere and 10 is where every char walks around as a God and can barely be hurt, I prefer a nice middle ground myeself.   Fun enough to enjoy but relistic enough that I have a basic understanding of how things work and a foundation to work off of.</P> <P>And the other issue is eviromental.   I think befor you should be a developer you should have to play some pen and paper RPGs to get a good understanding of gaming in general.</P> <P>Part or the gaming problem is the issue with the idiot concept of one tank holding agro and a ton of mobs.   That is one of the most short bus ideas of thinking that I have seen since EQ first came out and for some reason its still here.   There should be a minium of 2 tanks per group and agro should try to be divided between them.  The rest of the group is Healers and DPS/Utility chars.</P> <P>Agro should have a pyramid effect, when a tank taunts, each mob after the first one recives less and less effect of the taunt till you reach a point where no more then 3 mobs can be taunted and you have your second tank step in and take up the slack while the other chars help finish off the mobs of the primary tank.</P> <P>There is more to it but I think a huge part of our problems is Tanking and the Eviroment.   The eviroment is for tanking is not set up right so it extends its effects down the chain of chars.</P> <P>THAT is somthing Sony should be thinking about BEFOR they work on tanks, after that we might have a truely awsome system where other Mmorpgs will be green with envy when they see how dynamic EQ is and how smart our player base is with the tatics they employ to take down a mulitude of mobs in a big battle.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> That was the first time I have ever read a good idea on how to make a secondary tank wanted in a normal group! 5 Big Stars for you my good sir. If onlySony would read thia and realize the true potential be hind this. </P> <P> It would be great if you would start your own thread with this idea and expand upon it so that it might have the possability of being read.</P> <P> Genious I say! Genious!</P>

[MFHFozzy]

SOE FUBARS another game, sigh. Lesse. EQ2 already had a mass drop off, this is gonna cause another one. I pretty much only play now when my guild needs some help. I was looking forward to coming back as more of them hit 50, but, i came and had to see how the game has been progressing...and i find out its going backwards...again. Youll be getting a letter from me, and the BBB about me getting a refund when you change my class and it no longer fits the description of what its supposed to do, thx. Its just so [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing frustrating. I really loved EQ2 in beta. I loved it in release (even with all the broken quests). All youve done since then is make the game less and less fun. Meanwhile, WoW has been listening to thier players and makine adjustments that make the game more fun. And OMG! they took the time to fix skills before even attempting to try and "balance" anything...jeez, seems like there ARE people out there that understand you cant balance [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if the skills are broken. Maybe SOE HR needs to revamp thier hiring process. Ahh well, back to Guildwars i go..at least im max level there and still having fun. --Foz, Shelved 50 Beserker, #5 on Butherblock. Good luck to all that stick with it here, i hope you dont get as nerfed as you probably will...

[lagerone]

<P>I sympathise with Berserkers.  You choose your class because you wanted to be different.</P> <P>You didn't want to go with a cookie cutter fighter archetype like a guardian.</P> <P>You wanted something a little spicy with more damage and less tankage.</P> <P>It seems fairly inequitable to change class dynamics like this late into the game, but I'm fascinated to see if these changes make the game more "fun".</P> <P>I thought the current diversity within the archetypes was a good thing but I look forward to be proven wrong.</P> <P>I keep an open mind to these changes, however in saying this I disagree with everything Gage says as a matter of principle, even when he agrees with me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Yrield]

OMG OP is so right ! If they nerf the zerker dps the class is totaly ruined ! Bezerker are already underpowered compared to a defensive plate tank, the paladin to name it. Lets just compare the offensive tank vs the defensive one to see how much zerker need to be IMPROVED Bezerker aka offensive: + Better DPS + Can use any weapons (slash/crush/pierce) + Can dual weild + Can equip any kind of ranged weapon + Gain more HP pers point of Stamina + Gain more power pers point of Strength + Can use tower shield ( make alot of sense: offensive tank get a better block rate than a defensive tank) + No armor penality + Better aggro management + Better power efficiency (200% better, no big deal here) + Can buff MORE DEFENCE + Parry buff + haste + Direct HP  buff Paladin aka defence: + Heal + Rez - Broken Wards I know, I know, Paladin are way too much overpowered, but place youself in SOE's position here: You can't be a Paladin if you can't: *heal, rez, ward* those are class specific and you cant be a paladin if you cant do the holy trinity. So I dont think those [Removed for Content] will get nerfed any time soon... <span>:smileysad:</span> Back to the topic, I think I have prove without the shadow of a doubt, A Zerker who cant DPS IS broken, nothing less ! For the sake of balance, SAVE THE ZERKER ! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lagerone wrote:<BR> <P>I disagree with everything Gage says as a matter of principle, even when he agrees with me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's fine, you aren't the first and you won't be the last <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Plenty of people disagree with me.  But you and I both know you don't want to play a fighter, you abandoned your zerker when its DPS got *fixed* and you are talking as if you'll abandon your bruiser.</P> <P>The thing people do not understand when SOE talks about "offensive" fighters vs "defensive" fighters is: they aren't talking about just doing straight up DPS.</P> <P>Most of the zerker class buffs are offense oriented, such as haste.</P> <P>Most of the guardian group buffs are defense oriented.</P> <P>You can be a more offensive warrior w/o doing assassin like DPS, the fact that so many players can't fathom this shows close mindedness on thier part, not any error in SOE's design.</P> <P>But it doesn't matter, the changes are coming, and some of us have been warning you for months.  Don't be mad at us because you didn't listen.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:02 PM</span>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: <P>... You can be a more offensive warrior w/o doing assassin like DPS, the fact that so many players can't fathom this shows close mindedness on thier part, not any error in SOE's design....</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>True... and I think most berserkers don''t want to equal or surpass assassin dps.. BUT not even being able to match a pure utility class in DPS is plain stupid.. and an error in SOE's design.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Encantador]

Deadjester: all I see is berserkers wanting to be a 9 on your scale. Whether you selectively pick from 'reality' or not, each subclass has to be roughly as fun to play as any other. Creating a class which is overpowered is just plain wrong.<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>RexTenebrarum wrote:</P> <P>True... and I think most berserkers don''t want to equal or surpass assassin dps.. BUT not even being able to match a pure utility class in DPS is plain stupid.. and an error in SOE's design.</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Name me one 'pure' utility class. There is no such thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just one time I would like to see a berserker be honest. Everyone I see, wants to hang onto their DPS and still be able to fight toe to toe with mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you accept that the damage chart is right for all the other subclasses then tell us where berserkers should fit. When you do be sure to describe how well you tank compared to others in your group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If any fighters should be complaining it is the brawlers. Developers seem to be admitting they cannot tank and are letting them keep only moderate damage. We all wait to see what new 'utility' group 3 gets. Without a major boost to all the group 3 classes (and brawlers in particular)  they will become endangered species.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> encanta wrote:<BR> Deadjester: all I see is berserkers wanting to be a 9 on your scale. Whether you selectively pick from 'reality' or not, each subclass has to be roughly as fun to play as any other. Creating a class which is overpowered is just plain wrong.<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>RexTenebrarum wrote:</P> <P>True... and I think most berserkers don''t want to equal or surpass assassin dps.. BUT not even being able to match a pure utility class in DPS is plain stupid.. and an error in SOE's design.</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Name me one 'pure' utility class. There is no such thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just one time I would like to see a berserker be honest. Everyone I see, wants to hang onto their DPS and still be able to fight toe to toe with mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you accept that the damage chart is right for all the other subclasses then tell us where berserkers should fit. When you do be sure to describe how well you tank compared to others in your group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If any fighters should be complaining it is the brawlers. Developers seem to be admitting they cannot tank and are letting them keep only moderate damage. We all wait to see what new 'utility' group 3 gets. Without a major boost to all the group 3 classes (and brawlers in particular)  they will become endangered species.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hmmm... dirges and troubadours are pretty much a utility class in my opinion.. go read their description.</P> <P>Honest about what? Please rephrase your question and I might be able to answer it..but yes..I prefer to do my dmg in front of a mob. </P> <P>And no, I don't think the damage chart is right (read before posting) .. it's way out of sync in my opinion. But to save you the trouble of having to go and read all other threads (even in this one)  where I've said where I would <U>personally</U> see Berserkers i'll repeat it again: Group2 for dmg, with tanking about the same as a monk/bruiser(whom should also be in group2 for dmg).This is not taking into account armour type/adepts.. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Deadjest]

<P>  As a player who has played many a tatical games and even have won awards out of hundreds of people at  conventions, I have to agree that no char should be over balanced or it pushes the whole system out of whack.</P> <P>  The problem here is, all the tanks need to be twinked hands down, they are all to watered down and it gives them very little room for development and seperation of the class.</P> <P>  A main part  of the issue is Tanking Eviroment, <STRONG>ONLY </STRONG>after that is looked at and done correctly can we truly have well built and thought out balanced Tanks and when I say balanced, I mean balanced situationaly.   </P> <P> After that is all done then you need to come up with a concept of what each tank is and how its to acomplish it.  Just cant say well this tank is evil and this tank is good, there is more to it.</P> <P>  Also you have to get rid of the concpet of any Tank being the number one Raid Tank, that to should be situational.   That idea has a IQ raiting of my shoe size.   For anyone to say they made any type of Tank to be top dog of raiding is absured.   EQ news articals befor and after the game came out never mentioned it and the decription does mean it.  Its a absurd concept with a very week foundation of thought for anyone to push that.</P> <P>  A Top Dog equals two things.   Either a very over powered group Tank or a underpowered group Tank and both have bad effects  there is no middle ground for a Raid Tank.   Overpowered and they will be the only tank wanted in any group and you will have 5 other class's sitting on the side.   Underpowered and you will have a Raid Tank that never finds any groups so therefor they wont lvl and wont beable to be a Raid Tank.    Basicly anyone who pushes for it is bascily pushing for a role made in stone where the Tank Name does the work for them in getting groups and doing things and not the Player themselves and their Skills doing the work.</P> <P> Sony needs to come out with a solid but well thought out concepts on what is behind tanking.</P> <P>There are many things to consider,  Tanking vs Physical Dam.  Tanking vs Various Magical Dam.  Tanking vs Special Attacks.   Is the Tank more Offense or more Defense.  Is he group friendly or selfish in nature.</P> <P>Example:</P> <P>Paladine vs Shadow Knight</P> <P>Paladine by his very concept is a good tank with the defense of his fellow group members at the heart of his idealism.   Most of his buffs would be of medium power but effect the entire group with a light self buff that stacks with his group buff but only effects him.  Both physicaly and magicaly.   His traits should give him the option to choose certain upgrades to this.   Be it healing or some sort of defense for his groupmates,</P> <P>Shadow Knight is a evil Tank with a style that is very selfish in nature and a diry fighter.   He would probably have a  Heavy self buff vs Tanking and a Heavy Magical defense and instead of group buffs he would have crippling attacks and nukes that would debuff the mobs so that it would hurt the Shadow Knight even less and as a by product if he lost agro, the debuffed mob would still not hurt the groupmates he is traveling with as bad as it normaly would.</P> <P>Both Tanks would have words that would mitigate incoming dmg for those tough moments and since a Shield has been so much apart of thier nature probably special stunning and dmg attacks even against Epic mobs that no other tank would have.</P> <P>To me that is a balance with a concept, the numbers would have to be worked out on this and that but that is not what this post is about.</P> <P>I could have gone into Warriors and Brawlers but I just wanted to give a general idea.   And I used what I am most familiar with for a quick write up.</P> <P>Its about concpet transfering to tanking.</P> <P>All tanks should have a bottom basic line of what they can do more so then they have now.  After that you start adding on whats makes them special to each other. </P> <P>Utility should be a side issue, if it does not involve tanking it should not be part of the Tanking Equation, PERIOD.    Utility should be compared to other tanks Utility and work it out there for balance.</P> <P>Any Class that is under the <STRONG>Fighter</STRONG> <STRONG>Listing</STRONG>, has one purpose and one purpose only, to be on the front line fighting in what ever fashion they are designed with.</P> <P>Any ideas that this tank is less then that tank as a whole is pretty r etarded in nature.   Tanking whether it be Group or Raid should be situational as in who is better for the job.    Cause if you are not ment for front line duty then you should <STRONG>NOT </STRONG>be under the fighter listing.   </P> <P>And for those who cry about Nerfs, think about what you are crying for.   There are two types of Nerfs, good ones and bad ones, Good ones help the game as a whole, bad ones are those where the Develpment team had no clue what they just did and now have caused a under balance in a Class.</P>

[Encantador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RexTenebrarum wrote:<BR><BR> <P>And no, I don't think the damage chart is right (read before posting) .. it's way out of sync in my opinion. But to save you the trouble of having to go and read all other threads (even in this one)  where I've said where I would <U>personally</U> see Berserkers i'll repeat it again: <STRONG>Group2 for dmg, with tanking about the same as a monk/bruiser(whom should also be in group2 for dmg)</STRONG>.This is not taking into account armour type/adepts..</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You forgot to compare your tanking abilities with others in the group and are trying to confuse the issue by dragging brawlers into it, but at least this is close to getting things out in the open.</P> <P><BR>A brawler tanks almost as well as a plate tank. Certainly good enough for all group content. So you are asking for a berserker to do as much damage as a summoner or a rogue and to be able to tank for a group too. Indeed you want a berserker to out damage a summoner using his tank pet; I bet a tank pet cannot out tank you.</P> <P>When you are willing to accept that any character with that much power has to have some negatives to balance the plusses then you might get someone to listen to you. As it stands every group would pick a berzerker ahead of any plate tank and ahead of any summoner or rogue. Not just as first pick but as every pick except healer.</P> <P>As it is, to me and I presume many others, all it sounds like you are saying is "I want a god mode character almost equal to having BOTH a guardian and a rogue in a group."</P> <P> </P>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> encanta wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RexTenebrarum wrote:<BR><BR> <P>And no, I don't think the damage chart is right (read before posting) .. it's way out of sync in my opinion. But to save you the trouble of having to go and read all other threads (even in this one)  where I've said where I would <U>personally</U> see Berserkers i'll repeat it again: <STRONG>Group2 for dmg, with tanking about the same as a monk/bruiser(whom should also be in group2 for dmg)</STRONG>.This is not taking into account armour type/adepts..</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You forgot to compare your tanking abilities with others in the group and are trying to confuse the issue by dragging brawlers into it, but at least this is close to getting things out in the open.</P> <P><FONT color=#33cc33>Sorry if I made it too hard for you to understand. I said that they should be able to tank as well as bruisers/monks who should also be in the higher group damage wise. Nothing confusing about that. </FONT></P> <P><BR>A brawler tanks almost as well as a plate tank. Certainly good enough for all group content. So you are asking for a berserker to do as much damage as a summoner or a rogue and to be able to tank for a group too. Indeed you want a berserker to out damage a summoner using his tank pet; I bet a tank pet cannot out tank you.</P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33>You say a brawler tanks as well as a plate tank.. glad we have that part already balanced without the need to take off our armour <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So, following your logic, a zerker outdamaging a  summoner with a tank pet is unbalanced but a brawler outdamaging a summoner with a tank pet isn't (brawler and summoner+tank pet are both in the same group in the chart)?  Not making anything up here.. just combining your statement with the damage chart. </FONT></P> <P>When you are willing to accept that any character with that much power has to have some negatives to balance the plusses then you might get someone to listen to you. As it stands every group would pick a berzerker ahead of any plate tank and ahead of any summoner or rogue. Not just as first pick but as every pick except healer.</P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33>This makes no sense.. of course I'm willing to accept that characters should be balanced, never said I didn't.. I asked you before, but I'll ask you again.. please go read my other posts and point the ones out where I cry for a godlike character with only positive sides and no negatives.. I'm just trying to explain that I want to keep my dmg, and that I have NO problem whatsoever to reduce effectiveness in other areas for this.. and I never said I talked for other berzerkers.. these are my personal views, although I'm sure at least some others agree with me</FONT></P> <P>As it is, to me and I presume many others, all it sounds like you are saying is "I want a god mode character almost equal to having BOTH a guardian and a rogue in a group."</P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33>LOL.. I know you're a coercer, but I didn't know you had the ability to read other people's minds :womanwink:. I'm sure it doesn't sound like that to people who <STRONG><U>read</U></STRONG> my posts.. Of course not everybody agrees with what I say (this place would be very quiet if everybody agreed with each other), but I think you'll be hard pressed to find one of my posts that says I want to be an UBER char.. Also, I never wanted to be a Guardian. I would have created one if I wanted that.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#66cc33>It doesn't matter how much I try to explain what I want as some people will always read what they want to read, and skip the other parts.. and just to clarify again.. we are talking here about the proposed changes <U>after</U> the combat update, not our current characters..</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33></FONT> </P>

[Encantador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RexTenebrarum wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>A brawler tanks almost as well as a plate tank. Certainly good enough for all group content. So you are asking for a berserker to do as much damage as a summoner or a rogue and to be able to tank for a group too. Indeed you want a berserker to out damage a summoner using his tank pet; I bet a tank pet cannot out tank you.</P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33>You say a brawler tanks as well as a plate tank.. glad we have that part already balanced without the need to take off our armour <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So, following your logic, a zerker outdamaging a  summoner with a tank pet is unbalanced but a brawler outdamaging a summoner with a tank pet isn't (brawler and summoner+tank pet are both in the same group in the chart)?  Not making anything up here.. just combining your statement with the damage chart. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33>.................................................. .............</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33>I'm just trying to explain that I want to keep my dmg, and that I have NO problem whatsoever to reduce effectiveness in other areas for this..</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc33>.................................................. .............</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Your ability to 'follow' logic seems erratic. Brawler and summoner with tank pet are both group 3 and so are <STRONG>equal</STRONG> damage.<STRONG> </STRONG>I may or may not agree with that, I know several summoners that do not. I can see a sort of logic for it. Not very much but there is some.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for giving up effectiveness in other areas I am yet to see you volunteer to give up anything other than a small part of your tanking ability. You too should read the whole thread and look at the number of berserkers which say in effect 'I want a character that has good DPS and can tank'. For the good of the game this cannot be allowed unless there is a major weakness in the subclass too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, enough of this, as this is not really an argument between the two of us. It is me blowing off at all the berserkers who cannot look outside their subclass at the game as a whole and accept that berserkers should be an 'average' subclass. We have had 9 months of fighters being overpowered and berserkers certainly did start out as a god mode subclass. Lets all agree that it is time for a more equal distribution of power and fun for all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<P>One thing that hold true to this thread is that the only ones arguing for Zerkers are those that play them..</P> <P> Wonder why that is? :smileytongue:</P> <P> Why is it that EVERY other class can tell that zerkers are overpowered but them?</P> <P> Wierd.</P>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> encanta wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Lets all agree that it is time for a more equal distribution of power and fun for all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Agreed...</P> <P>/courteous bow</P> <P>For what it's worth.. I liked your idea a few posts back.. that one coupled with the aura.. man.. I'd give an arm and a leg to see my team mates as well as the mobs  scamper away whenever we go berserk. If they would throw in an emote to go with that, it would really make my day :smileyhappy: </P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MakhailSammael wrote:<BR> <P>One thing that hold true to this thread is that the only ones arguing for Zerkers are those that play them..</P> <P> Wonder why that is? :smileytongue:</P> <P> Why is it that EVERY other class can tell that zerkers are overpowered but them?</P> <P> Wierd.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Probably because the zerker could take on 2 roles.. Some like me liked the dmg, and didn't really care about the tanking.. Others picked the class for the tanking with the dmg as a nice extra.. Now we are probably going to be pushed in 1 direction, and that's what ticks off a lot of zerkers who picked the class for dmg..</P> <P>Anybody wants to trade a full set of ebon armour in for a fur loincloth :smileywink:  I promise I'll wipe the blood off first </P>

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>MakhailSammael wrote:<p>One thing that hold true to this thread is that the only ones arguing for Zerkers are those that play them..</p> <p> Wonder why that is? :smileytongue:</p> <p> Why is it that EVERY other class can tell that zerkers are overpowered but them?</p> <p> Wierd.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, I'd probably say it's because much of it is heresay. I've read countless post after post saying berserkers out-dps'ing everyone. Yet, I've also seen posts complaining the the MT for the raid, a Guardian, out-dps'd everyone. Now, is the problem a class issue, or is it an issue of game mechanics coming together to create the conditions to allow this to happen? Are there damage shields on the tank being attributed to his DPS? Are others in group casting group buffs that cause melee weapons to proc? Are melee's using weapons that proc themselves? I'm not denying that parses are out there showing Berserkers and Guardians out-DPS'ing everyone in a group or raid. However, I also know that a lot of DPS that is attributed to them is also being generated by things that have nothing to do with the class. For example, on raids, I as a Berserker am usually put in the MT group to buff the Guardian. But my effect on the Guardian is more than just buffing his HP/Avoidance. I also provide a decent melee haste bump, I provide skills that cause his weapons to proc, I provide skills that can causes him to Berzerk, etc etc. All of which have a sizeable effect on his DPS. And hopefully increases his aggro in addition. Lastly, I've yet to actually SEE a DPS parse, that was dissected and the results analyzed to determine exactly what was generating what damage. Now I know Berserkers put out good DPS, no denying that. However, I have a pretty skeptical eye when people try to make blanket statements such as "I was out-dps'd by such-and-such Berserker or Guardian" without providing anything factual to reference to back up such claims, or analysis of the situation that it occured in.</span><div></div>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuddar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR>For example, on raids, I as a Berserker am usually put in the MT group to buff the Guardian. But my effect on the Guardian is more than just buffing his HP/Avoidance. I also provide a decent melee haste bump, I provide skills that cause his weapons to proc, I provide skills that can causes him to Berzerk, etc etc. All of which have a sizeable effect on his DPS. And hopefully increases his aggro in addition.<BR><BR></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> Just want every Beserker who thinks that without the high end DPS he will now be completely worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> May want to read it again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Now you see, if your a good player and know what you can contribute, people will always want you around :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Now, we can get on with life..or EQ2.. or something that does not involve complaining about a nerf bat smacking us around  :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Ethelwo]

<P>MakhailSammael,  And it is also clear that the ones who want them nerfed, don't play them. That is the real point, Tank players arn't calling for nerfs on yours or any other class, but you  and everyone else who doesn't play one insists that all tanks should be nerfed. You and your kind are bad for the game. You should be shunned because after you ruin the game for tank players, you'll just move on to another class you don't play and scream for nerfs there.</P> <P>I have zero regards for you and anyone that calls for the nefage of any class. It goes on in these forums to an extent that is mind boggling. Mean hatefull folks with nothing better to do then try to ruin the game for someone who plays another class. Why don't you do something productive and call for fixes to your class if it isn't up to par.</P> <DIV>Can't do that can you. It says all there is to say about your personnal character.</DIV>

[Tudd]

Berserkers don't need high-end DPS, but EVERY class needs the ability to do decent DPS or enable others in group to put out substantially more DPS. The reason, as has been stated by many, is that DPS stacks. Most other responsibilities do not. For example, only one person will be tanking a mob at a time in most group situations, and often only one healer needed to heal. So if there are any other tanks and healers in the group, they need to be able to deliver decent DPS when not doing their primary roles. And that DPS needs to be something *comparable* to straight DPS classes. Not superior, but not sucking high [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] either to the point no one wants you if your not in your primary role. Also, you have to be careful modifying DPS. The classes were designed around the DPS they are putting out today. If you increase or reduce class DPS, then you obviously affect other areas, such as class solo capabilities. What I don't want to see is EQ2 degrade back into EQ1 with lack of stackability in groups and some classes being able to solo and others not. I didn't jump ship only to have it turn around and sail back into the port I left. I'm sure many feel the same way. <div></div>

[Armill]

<DIV>I'm hoping stats will have more of a affect, it does make sense that strength makes you do more damage, but right now stats like agilty just don't have an affect on dps for me as an assassin. The only thing it contributes is power and I hope that it will change(i guess to a lesser extent it gives me avoidance but not enough to make up for it in soloing) to something like it increases your ability to damage in a unique way like criticals. You might have the strength to back up a blow but do you have the prescison to make that blow lethal...I don't know something like that.</DIV>

[Encantador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>MakhailSammael,  And it is also clear that the ones who want them nerfed, don't play them. That is the real point, Tank players arn't calling for nerfs on yours or any other class, but you  and everyone else who doesn't play one insists that all tanks should be nerfed. You and your kind are bad for the game. You should be shunned because after you ruin the game for tank players, you'll just move on to another class you don't play and scream for nerfs there.</P> <P>I have zero regards for you and anyone that calls for the nefage of any class. It goes on in these forums to an extent that is mind boggling. Mean hatefull folks with nothing better to do then try to ruin the game for someone who plays another class. Why don't you do something productive and call for fixes to your class if it isn't up to par.</P> <DIV>Can't do that can you. It says all there is to say about your personnal character.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am so tired of countering this argument. Even other berserkers see the fallacy of this stupid argument. At present all fighters are overpowered. So lets leave them exactly as they are adjust everyone else.</P> <P>Wait lets take it slowly. Everyone agrees that enchanters are underpowered. So lets boost them up. Lets see .... to get an enchanter's damage to be clearly above that of all fighters then boosting it by a factor of 4 would seem right. At present enchanter buffs are woeful the only one worth anything is the breeze line so lets boost their few other buffs, say make the haste a 100% boost and the agi/int boost give 100 agi. Now all they need is a small boost to their roots/stuns for soloing (lets make them unbreakable like the warlock one) and something useful to do during a raid, I know lets put their ability to drain power back to where it was and boost the power tap a bit.<BR></P> <DIV>Whats that ? summoners complaining now that enchanters do more damage then they do and have better utility? Ok lets boost them up too. Lets fix their damage pets and double the damage the pet does, also need to double the damage from the summoner too. Can't give them too much utility though so lets compensate them by making their tank pet tank as well as a brawler does including giving it a couple of taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats that? warlocks complaining summoners out damage them? ok increase their damage by 50 percent that will give them an edge?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now what ? oh the scouts are feeling left behind. Ok lift bards to chanter levels, rogues to summoner, and predator to sorceror. Something still wrong? ah scouts do not tank well enough in paticular bards (summoner pets making them look like wimps) . Lets boost them up so they tank as well as a brawler.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone happy now? Hmmm mobs are a bit feeble, groups can't find mobs tough enough to fight. Can't nerf any body so lets boost the mobs a bit ... give them 50 percent more HP and power and up their mitigations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah Finally everyone is happy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats this? fighters complaining? Why ? You have not been nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was this a simple enough explanation? No? Ok one more time .... No one wants berserkers nerfing for the sake of it. But it is not possible to balance the game as it currently stands without reducing the power of fighters. If you boost everyone else leaving fighters as they are then the mobs will become trivial. So either the whole game becomes trivial or mobs will get boosted. Whichever happens fighters have been relatively nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before I get labelled as number one bad guy and anti-fighter let me state right now that this post is to answer why you cannot simply boost others. It is not an attack on fighters. If all that was needed were a couple of tweaks to a couple of subclasses I too would be complaining about them turning the combat system updside down.</DIV>

[Encantador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Tuddar wrote:<BR></P> <P>Berserkers don't need high-end DPS, but EVERY class needs the ability to do decent DPS or enable others in group to put out substantially more DPS<BR>.......</P> <P>What I don't want to see is EQ2 degrade back into EQ1 with lack of stackability in groups and some classes being able to solo and others not.<BR><BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ggrrrr. By your argument everyone needs to be able to do at least moderate damage even guardians and healers. If a tank or a healer does the same damage as a mage (e.g. a summoner) or a scout (e.g. a rogue) then why would anyone want the mage in the group?</P> <P>Double ggrrrrr. The game currently has classes that do not stack in group AND some of those cannot solo. Just because your subclass can currently do everything do not presume everything is peachy.</P> <P> </P>

[Deadjest]

<P>Actualy  Encanta 2nd post above mine here is exactly correct, said a bit crudly but its right on the money.    Every fix you do has a cascade effect so its better to fix the game with the least amount of effects and that is basicly starting with the Tanks.</P> <P>The Tanks are the foundation of the etire game, everything starts with them and ends with them.  </P> <P>But  Tuddar is also exactly correct.   Every class has to do decent DPS, its a must.   As of now the class's are to watered down and a few don't bring enough to the table to warrent them being in a group.</P> <P>The issue is where is decent DPS?  Decent  DPS is basicly the Tanks in the Middle of the Tanking Scale.   Which is easy to balance,  even a cleric that does the DPS of a middle weight Tank wont be a monster if you consider their heavy plate but their lack of parry and lesser defence skills and chances to be interrupted when the new system comes out.  IF its done correctly.</P> <P>The major problem is that EQ2 is based to much on DPS alone deu to the watered down nature of all the class's.   There is not enough Utilitiy effects for each class going on to make up for it.   </P> <P>Combat Utility that is.  Which is anything from Buffing, to Debuffing.   Which can break down much father for both Buffing and Debuffing, those two areas can have a massive amount of variaty that can be spread through out the class's.  Buffing can be anything from different attack skills such as crushing, pericing, slashing to power regen, to parrys and avoidance, syphion attacks that drain the mob but give to the entire group, to resists, etc etc, and same goes for Debuffing which can copy almost exactly Buffing but with the reverse effect.</P> <P>There just is not enough right now going on to make class's truely seperate and wanted and so the side effect boils down to DPS.</P> <P>DPS is easy to balance but its very lack luster if it stands alone and as very little room for diversity.   </P> <P>Utility for <STRONG>ALL</STRONG> the class's is the key, when combined with DPS, that is what will truly make people proude of what they chose and feel they have a job that is different and yet vital to the group.</P> <P>So when we talk Class Balance lets not just peck at DPS, for that is only part of the issue not the whole of it.</P> <P>Bezerker DPS is not Balanced vs their Defence capability and needs to be worked on but what makes it so Glaringly Standout is the lack of abilities that most of the other class's have, and that is the main issue. </P> <P><STRONG>FIX COMBAT UTILITY</STRONG> and then worry about Bezerker DPS or even SK DPS for that matter, I play a SK and even I don't think I should do as much as I do unless I am doing AoEs.   But SK's are horrible done and don't have the feel that the EQ1 SK did, they <STRONG>FELT</STRONG> like evil Knights.   So we are down to two things in this game and that is DPS vs DPS and Tanking vs Mobs and that is totaly wrong way to design a game and to think in only those patterns is absured if you want a future in this industry.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Deadjester on <span class=date_text>07-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 AM</span>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>MakhailSammael,  And it is also clear that the ones who want them nerfed, don't play them. That is the real point, Tank players arn't calling for nerfs on yours or any other class, but you  and everyone else who doesn't play one insists that all tanks should be nerfed. You and your kind are bad for the game. You should be shunned because after you ruin the game for tank players, you'll just move on to another class you don't play and scream for nerfs there.</P> <P>I have zero regards for you and anyone that calls for the nefage of any class. It goes on in these forums to an extent that is mind boggling. Mean hatefull folks with nothing better to do then try to ruin the game for someone who plays another class. Why don't you do something productive and call for fixes to your class if it isn't up to par.</P> <DIV>Can't do that can you. It says all there is to say about your personnal character.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> Look up Krommus and you will find me.. a 41 bruiser.... last I checked, that was a tank class.</P> <P> Everyone has zero regards for you and your dumb argument that other people are calling for a nerf to your class. We are trying to explain why Zerkers are falling where they do on the new DPS list.</P> <P> You are now acting like a child and I am through explaining things to you that you cannot/refuse to see.</P> <P> One star me again. It seems to make you feel better.</P>

[Margen]

<P>One thing none you scout/mages haven't even had the guts to adress, Tanking doesn't stack well at all, DPS does.   So what do all the "offensive" fighter do, sit around and wait till no defensive fighter is Grouping/Raiding.  Cause when our offense sucks (thanks for the nerf btw, blaahhh).  and we are not in the defensive catagory we won't be wanted .... and you know it, so fighters will have ONLY one role, and only one slot, yeah that is going to make playing any fighter besides Guardian or Paladin real fun, hopefully we can solo something ... cause its going to be tough gettting groups.  <BR></P> <P>Hopefully if there is any justice in the world they will nerf root, kiting and all the little tricks you all do ... taking down yellow heroics/epics with out even getting touched.   Also nerf mana regen from bards and chanters, reduce any reason for YOU to be wanted, just like you did to us.  Are scouts going to lose the ability to parry, hey you aren't a defensive class no reason you should have that ability.  You know before this issue raised its oh so ugly head I never wished a nerf on anyone, but dang I hope you get HAMMERED with the nerf bat, just like you advocated it for us.</P> <P>You won, and unless sony changes ALL the fighters to being able to tank as well as guardians (considering thats all we are suppose to do), there will be alot less in the game (which will make Guardians happy).   Sony has already stated that there is a hiarchy in tanking, so the ones at the lower end will be hoosed, cause having more then one fighter in a group or maybe two in a raid will be detremental to that group/raid.  </P> <P>Should fighters do top line DPS like warlocks/assaians ... no.  But as a Shadow Knight being told that I am tied for 15th in the DPS tree and am the 4th best tank, tells me we are going to be REALLY hurting.  I don't raise the stats of a group, till one debuff at 50, I don't decrease the mobs effectivness worth a dang.  So what did I bring, and ability if need be to tank (but every group I've been with a Paladin/Guardian/Beserker I let them tank unless a major difference between gear/level, and I could provide good dps Now I can't.  </P> <P>Nice Job nerf callers</P> <P>Blackoath Troll Shadow Knight</P>

[Encantador]

<P>I can suggest a few ways to balance 'offensive' fighters. Even ones as offensive and childish as Margen. I would not balance things this way myself but how about giving a zerker (or SK or whatever Margen's toon is) ....</P> <P>1) A HP buff of say 1000 HP lasting 15 minutes with a 15 second recast.</P> <P>2) A mitigation boosting buff say 5 percent, which takes one concentration slot per target.</P> <P>3) An extra boost to physical damage mitigation granting an extra 10 percent to mitigation against melee damage only. Single target and group only lasting 15 mins.</P> <DIV>Those buffs look pretty good to me. Should get you a place in most groups. Certainly any group with scouts would love to have such buffs. If these aren't enough I am sure there are some other utility type abilities they can do which will be valuable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I fail to see the issue with the tanks and groups. 4 subclasses get a slot in a group as a tank. Thats one sixth of the possible subclasses for one sixth of the possible places. I also do not see that there will be very much to choose between the plate tanks for tanking in a group. I fully expect SKs and Berserkers to easily tank for even the most adventurous groups. I also expect then to be preferred over guards and pallies for the majority of groups. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do see a potential problem in a raid. Perhaps a good fix would be to give them a very effective AE taunt on say a 5 minute timer then they could make a good offtank and do crowd control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lots of ways to fix. DPS is not the only way that an 'offensive' tank can contribute.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by encanta on <span class=date_text>07-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:20 AM</span>

[Ethelwo]

<P>First off I never star anyone or anything, your rating doesn't mean anything to me. But it may to forum hounds.</P> <P>Lets take scout classes: way to many of there special skills require them to be behind the mob and this situational damage has been a big anchor around their necks.</P> <P>Scouts need to be fixed. thats for certain, but it has nothing to do with tanks.</P> <P>Many spells and skills sets hinder players of all classes. Wards for example are way broke. Wiz and Warlock root spells give them to much power to solo and I have personnally watched a L50 Warlock solo a L50 epicX2 group in EF. But I don't call nerf on those classes. If their having a great time, good for them. if I wanted to play one, I would make one.</P> <P>My whole point is that nerfing one class does not fix your own. It just makes the game less fun for the class or group that was nerfed.</P> <P>Now I can tell from reading these forums since the game has been released that many folks call for nerfs because something is not working right with their class or their skill sets dont allow them to solo.</P> <P>Not one class or archtype needs to be nerfed in this game. Many do need to be fixed to bring them up. But none should be brought down. If tanks seem to have to much power right now it's because other classes need to be fixed and brought up. It does not mean that tanks need to be nerfed. The end result of any nerf of a class/archtype is a crummy game for all.</P> <P>So if you want to make your false claim that certain classes need to be nerfed, I'll let you know just how good your hatefull rant is for the game. It's absolutly no good at all and the result of a class/archtype nerf never fixed a thing in any game. It's just the easy way out for the developers and one they take way to often. In the end it's bad for their game. We need to as a group call for these developers to take the high road and not the low one once again. Instead of urging them on to turn one mistake into an even bigger one.</P> <P> </P>

[Margen]

<DIV>Considering you have called every fighter thats posted here names, I guess I should consider it standard.  You called for nerfs, which I my book is VERY childish.  But hey you won. We will get nerfed, HAPPY DAYS for you.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see mages and scouts at my level kill mobs MUCH faster then me, with out even getting hit, and you in your narrow vision of the world say WE are overpowered.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Call me childish all you want, least I am wasn't so whiny to start calling for nerfing other classes because you want to be mister ubber class.  For us that picked  classes that may not have been the best at one area, but  supposedly had versitily, this ticks us off.  Now that is gone.  Gratz you won, but don't expect us to feel friendly towards you that politiced us to be nerfed ... AND IT IS A NERF. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We won't be a utility class like chanters and Bards, we won't be dps, and we will be a poor mans tank.  You might want to look in the mirror before calling people names, you aren't mister politness. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I see from your types is rudness, arrganoce and greed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blackoath</DIV>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>Margen wrote:<p>One thing none you scout/mages haven't even had the guts to adress, Tanking doesn't stack well at all, DPS does.   So what do all the "offensive" fighter do, sit around and wait till no defensive fighter is Grouping/Raiding.  Cause when our offense sucks (thanks for the nerf btw, blaahhh).  and we are not in the defensive catagory we won't be wanted .... and you know it, so fighters will have ONLY one role, and only one slot, yeah that is going to make playing any fighter besides Guardian or Paladin real fun, hopefully we can solo something ... cause its going to be tough gettting groups.  </p> <p>Hopefully if there is any justice in the world they will nerf root, kiting and all the little tricks you all do ... taking down yellow heroics/epics with out even getting touched.   Also nerf mana regen from bards and chanters, reduce any reason for YOU to be wanted, just like you did to us.  Are scouts going to lose the ability to parry, hey you aren't a defensive class no reason you should have that ability.  You know before this issue raised its oh so ugly head I never wished a nerf on anyone, but dang I hope you get HAMMERED with the nerf bat, just like you advocated it for us.</p> <p>You won, and unless sony changes ALL the fighters to being able to tank as well as guardians (considering thats all we are suppose to do), there will be alot less in the game (which will make Guardians happy).   Sony has already stated that there is a hiarchy in tanking, so the ones at the lower end will be hoosed, cause having more then one fighter in a group or maybe two in a raid will be detremental to that group/raid.  </p> <p>Should fighters do top line DPS like warlocks/assaians ... no.  But as a Shadow Knight being told that I am tied for 15th in the DPS tree and am the 4th best tank, tells me we are going to be REALLY hurting.  I don't raise the stats of a group, till one debuff at 50, I don't decrease the mobs effectivness worth a dang.  So what did I bring, and ability if need be to tank (but every group I've been with a Paladin/Guardian/Beserker I let them tank unless a major difference between gear/level, and I could provide good dps Now I can't.  </p> <p>Nice Job nerf callers</p> <p>Blackoath Troll Shadow Knight</p> <hr></blockquote></span><span>I think you miss the whole point here. After the combat revamp fighter wont do 2dps and warlock 400dps. As matter of fact you dont need a group of 1 guard/1 templar/4 warlock to do something, group wont get wiped over and over  because they have 1 guard/1 templar/3 warlock/1 SK or  1 SK , 1 Fury, 3 random dps class and 1 monk But with the figther out damaging the scouts/mage something is wrong Fighter can switch from offence to defence AT WILL... no other class in the game can do that, NONE We can out dps some scout, none can out tank us We can out dps some mage, none can out tank us We can out dps ALL  priest, none out tank us If you rolled a SK to dps ... beep! wrong If you rolled a SK to tank and dps ... beep! wrong And quit already on the "top dog" attitude... oooh I'm not #1 i wont be able to find a group... Its not true and you know it ! Pally and SK have never been #1 tank, but we are both here sitting at lvl50, heck i tanked from lvl6 to 50 over guardian and zerker, why ? because people know me, know what i can do and trust me to do the job. In the popular view Knight are subpart tank and whatever SOE do i don't think thing gonna change that easy, but whats peoples think doesn't matter as long YOU can prove'em wrong. (should be even more easy after the combat revamp because the whole thing include tanking balance)</span><div></div>

[Margen]

<P>Please understand, I have no problem with rouges, warlocks, wizards, and predators or summoners even, out damaging me by quite a bit.  But to be 15th, means that our DPS will be poor, consider we are on the same tier as guardians/paladins, just a step above.  </P> <P>Compare Shadow Knights with bards and chanters, they bring some VERY nice buffs to a group, If I group with a chanter, the power regen alone is awsome, and while mezz may not be the huge issue it was in EQ1, it does make both tanking and healing much easier and orderly when pulling multi mob groups.  I grouped with a Bard today and had my prim str alone was raised by 80 points, plus mana regen there also.  Saying these abilities don't mater is what I find hard to swallow.  </P> <P>Plus yes I can produce a short burst of pretty significant damage, but whe I go into dps mode, my power drops like a rock.  And to be blunt I 've never grouped with a scout or mage (exception of chanters and maybe bards) where they didn't out damage me significantly.  I have a heck of time maintain aggro when grouped with a warlock or assasians, and yes I am taunting, spam buffing etc, why if their dps is so bad.  Also there is the issue when I see scout classes in kiting heroic mobs, which would smash my head in, before I got them to 50 pct.  Or warlocks nuking a mob to death before it even get within range, not to mention root/nuke.</P> <P>Tanks have to have something to bring to the party if they are not filing the tank role and at this time all we have is dps (oh from what the Beserker's are saying their HP buffs don't stack with Guardians hp buffs, when they let the stacking bug/change out for short period).  So yes, I think we should be able to tank and provide good (not wizard/warlock) dps.  Cause I am not improving stats, I am not making the wizards spells more powerful, I am not regen power, I am not stealing power from the mob, I am not mezzing, transfer power to healers etc..  All these things DPS classes can do (isn't that a bit on the powerful side).</P> <P>you all can 1 star me all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that with only ONE role for fighters in the future and that role not stacking (while dps does stack well), there is trouble in mudville.</P> <DIV>Oh and WHAT top dog (ROFL), we are the last heavy tank chossen for actually tanking, considering Paladins are now with Guardians as top tank, your attitude is a bit hypocritical.  Are you losing your heals?  Are you losing aggro ability?  Being on told your on top makes it easier to take changes <shrugg>, considering we where suppose to provide good dps, yes I am ticked.  Heck beserker wher told they would provide large amount of damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh well enjoy, I will try fighting my way through this mess, maybe they will make lifetaps actually worth casting >>>> RIGHT LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Margen on <span class=date_text>07-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>From what I am reading, it seems people don't comprehend how a nerf works.</P> <P>Nerfs work in two ways.</P> <P>They either bring your class down some.</P> <P>Or they bring other class's up some. </P> <P>The net result is the <STRONG>SAME</STRONG>.</P> <P>On a pychological lvl the first is noticed and the second is not as noticed as much but its the same end result.</P> <P>Combat Utility combined with DPS combined with Defense is the answer but Combat Utility is being over looked by most but I see some are starting to realize the importance of it and the diversity it can bring to seperating our class's and giving us a vital part in any Group and a Raid even more so for that matter.  </P>

[Yrield]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Margen wrote:<p>Please understand, I have no problem with rouges, warlocks, wizards, and predators or summoners even, out damaging me by quite a bit.  But to be 15th, means that our DPS will be poor, consider we are on the same tier as guardians/paladins, just a step above. </p><p>Compare Shadow Knights with bards and chanters, they bring some VERY nice buffs to a group, If I group with a chanter, the power regen alone is awsome, and while mezz may not be the huge issue it was in EQ1, it does make both tanking and healing much easier and orderly when pulling multi mob groups.  I grouped with a Bard today and had my prim str alone was raised by 80 points, plus mana regen there also.  Saying these abilities don't mater is what I find hard to swallow. </p><p>Plus yes I can produce a short burst of pretty significant damage, but whe I go into dps mode, my power drops like a rock.  And to be blunt I 've never grouped with a scout or mage (exception of chanters and maybe bards) where they didn't out damage me significantly.  I have a heck of time maintain aggro when grouped with a warlock or assasians, and yes I am taunting, spam buffing etc, why if their dps is so bad.  Also there is the issue when I see scout classes in kiting heroic mobs, which would smash my head in, before I got them to 50 pct.  Or warlocks nuking a mob to death before it even get within range, not to mention root/nuke.</p><p>Tanks have to have something to bring to the party if they are not filing the tank role and at this time all we have is dps (oh from what the Beserker's are saying their HP buffs don't stack with Guardians hp buffs, when they let the stacking bug/change out for short period).  So yes, I think we should be able to tank and provide good (not wizard/warlock) dps.  Cause I am not improving stats, I am not making the wizards spells more powerful, I am not regen power, I am not stealing power from the mob, I am not mezzing, transfer power to healers etc..  All these things DPS classes can do (isn't that a bit on the powerful side).</p><p>you all can 1 star me all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that with only ONE role for fighters in the future and that role not stacking (while dps does stack well), there is trouble in mudville.</p><div>Oh and WHAT top dog (ROFL), we are the last heavy tank chossen for actually tanking, considering Paladins are now with Guardians as top tank, your attitude is a bit hypocritical.  Are you losing your heals?  Are you losing aggro ability?  Being on told your on top makes it easier to take changes , considering we where suppose to provide good dps, yes I am ticked.  Heck beserker wher told they would provide large amount of damage.</div><div> </div><div>Oh well enjoy, I will try fighting my way through this mess, maybe they will make lifetaps actually worth casting >>>> RIGHT LOL</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Margen on <span class="date_text">07-01-2005</span><span class="time_text">11:00 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span>Yep i understand what you mean, I play a crusader too we are powerburner, right now warrior have the easy life, berserker barely need to taunt to hold aggro, guardian sit and cycle their taunts. when we have to dance, trow dirt and stones to keep mobs attention. But devs say they will look on power innefficiency and hazardous aggro of  crusaders, so wait and see here.They also rework spells and CAs so the spells/CAs/Buffs/Debuff we have today wont necessary be the same after the revamp.I rolled a paladin to tank, so i dont care if the warlock nuke for 394458 pts of poison dmg, i dont want to be scaled vs a dps class, i want to be scaled vs the others tank class.So what do you do ?First. you balance the 4 archectype2nd. you balance the class inside those archectype3rd. you balance the mobsBecause if you dont do that, you have to boost, boost, boost, boost and boost. And more you boost more you dig the gasp between the class/archetype, slowly but surely some class become  less and less needed ( ex. mob have more hp and hit harder and faster: you have to boost defence of the defensive class, healing of the healing class, damage of the dps class.  So who win ? defence: guard, Healing: templar, dps: warlock, so you have 3 primes class and 21 utility class, sound really fun...)To me its not a nerf; zerker fall back in the tanking class, illusionist go back in the dps class, etc... sound like (to me) how thing should have been since day one.Thing like guard with lvl58 defence, buff stacking from the same line, scout kiting yellow heroic(i have an assassin), warlock smoking everything at will  and every littles things that make the game really unbalanced should never have existed and were certainly not intented... yeah its late, 8 month later, but better late than never IMHOIf thing are done RIGHT this can be the real begginning of this gamefor the edit:Like i said Pally and SK have never been #1 we were 3 and 4, in the popular viewPally always have been annonced as  DEFENSIVE tank and SK as  OFFENSIVE tankGuard <=> PallySK <=> Zerkermake alot of sense actualy. read SoE #37 pleaseAnd no "top tank class" should not exist, i dont belive in the *one tank to rules them all* or *two tanks king of king*. When the first group is more defence, the second group is more offence, both group still TANK<i>. </i>Down the road player's skill should determine who is the "top tank"<div></div>

[Yeebo]

<div></div>I have had a vision of the future.  A few classes will get a DPS buff, but for most it will greatly decrease.  Combats will take longer, it will take longer to level, and many classes will lose the ability to solo effectively.  Specifically, soloing as a healer or tank will become a lesson in pain because your DPS will be about half of what it is now.  There will be much whining and gnashing of keyboards, and many will cancel their accounts.    <div></div><p>Message Edited by Yeebo on <span class=date_text>07-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:22 PM</span>

[JRav]

The way i see it, Tanks (Like Summoners) should be in the two different catagories, the first being when they are tanking(standing in front of the mob, having the chance to get parried/reposed), the second being when they are DPSing(standin in back of the mob with the rest of the group.) When Tanks are tanking, they should be in the 4th group in terms of DPS(Third for Monks/Bruisers), and when not tanking they should be moved up a group(monks/bruisers go to group2, the rest go to group3) This makes sense becasue monks/bruisers arent going to be tanking very often and they still need a place in a group. Zerkers/Sks/Pallys/Guards will all be tanking often but lets say that a guardian is in the game group as a Zerker/Pally/SK, now lets say that the guardian has the best tanking equipment so the groups decides to let him tank. The Zerker/Pally/SK will still be wanted in the group because of their decent dps(group3)/Their Ability to tank adds/and most importantly their Assist Tank buffs.(HP/Haste for Zerkers/Mitigation/Healing for Pally's/Mitigation/Str Sta Agi Buff/Warding for SK's) <div></div>

[Yeebo]

Actually that's pretty close to how Warriors work in WoW.    You can bump your DPS and sacrifice defense and some aggro management ability if you are solo of the offtank in a group.  When maintanking for an instance group you sacrifice offense and have much better defense and a few extra taunts.  I would be perfectly happy to see things work like this, but such subtltey seems to have been beyond SOE in the past.  I'm really afraid that figheters are about to become nearly entirely group dependant. We'll see I guess. <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Hehehe kinda like all scouts with exception of ranger who can bow kite.....</P> <P>But seriously, you'll still beable to solo, just not as well as you are now probly, but hey who knows, think of it this way:</P> <P>ANYTHING THEY DO TO PLAYERS THEY DO TO MOBS :smileywink:</P> <P>Thoughs fighter mobs will FINALY stop killing my warlock in 2 hits..... i mean [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] 600+ damage a hit is hard with 1300 hp lol, not to mention it's a 4 second stun! and it meleed me for 200 x2 in that 4 secnods, then interupted my stun with another 450 CA attack...sigh...</P> <P>But when you think about it, you will be fighting more like a turtle, since fighters are defensive based, the killing will be slower but safer than scout solo (nearly impossible, wish they would implement my "distraction" idea that would let scouts solo .... click here to read that post )<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=54637&page=2" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=54637&page=2</A></P> <P>Anyway it wont be the end of the world for fighter solo, you will just be killing about the pace of a priest but slightly better but at a probly slightly greater risk since you wont beable to heal yourself much (paladin excluded)</P> <p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 PM</span>

[Cypherus]

<P>I read posts for about 4 pages. Two things stuck out.</P> <P> </P> <P>Personally I wanted to be assassin for the top mele damage comparable to a mage. Reason for this [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]'s have to work their [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] off to bring up the big numbers, plus using costly poisons etc.</P> <P>I also Want to make a SK for its role. An sk is supposed to be the heavy armorer wielding knight who rather than heal or help his allies, uses his evil ways to debuff or steal attributes from a mob thereby crippling he mob so its weaker. I do not want a tank that is a guardian with fancier skills. I don;t even want to tank. I would rather sacrafice my health for more damage than lose offense for frigging more defense as is now.</P> <P> </P> <P>Rather than worrying about the stupid dps roles they need to make a difference between subclasses.</P> <P> </P> <P>As is right now All SKs are is a tank with pretty nice dps a pos dmg/health spell and a few buffs and medicore debuffs.</P> <P>They need to fix sks either make us have stronger debuffs and cripples, or let us absorb mob attributes like ffx has. If they made the original eq1 sk id be happy.</P> <P>Paladin is almost the same dps with nice heals rezs and magic resistances. leave them as they are.</P> <P>Guardians are Meatshields who sole purpose is to tank and draw agro. keep this the same</P> <P>Berserkers are crazy warriors who can tank almost as good as a guard but also deal crazy damage. get rid of there defense. They should have the role of brutally destroying the mob while it wears them down, with about the same defense as a sk or pally.</P> <P> </P> <P>onto scouts</P> <P>Assassin is a pure dps class with some bow skills, and a few debuffs. More dps, This should be the top class in cqc combat dmg. We do not wear heavy armor. We don;t have as many utilities as so many rogues cry about.</P> <P>Ranger is a high dps class that excells in ranged attacks on par with assassin. They should rely on expensive arrows and ranged weapons to compare in assassin dmg, there mele should be well below an assassin.</P> <P>Swashbuckler is a ultilty scout with close to the same dps as predator classes. Get rid of there dps, They should have allot less damage. There supposed to be the class that debuffs stuns  a mob.</P> <P>Brigands is a ultilty scout with close to the same dps as predator classes. Make them positional damage but more than that they just cripple there opponents.</P> <P>Bards basically need a more defined role, as of now there basically the class thats only wanted for buffs. Give them something that makes them more wanted.</P> <P>Mages</P> <P>WIzards elemental caster who deals damage through arcane. Fine as they are.</P> <P>Warlocks relies on posion and diease magic to harm the mob. Fine as they are.</P> <P>Both of those classes are the roles everyone expects. </P> <P>Necromancer relies on a pet to help out in battle using disease and posion based damage. Give me back my eq1 necro, I don;t want the kiting, I want my dots back along with my converts and drains.</P> <P>Conjurer uses a pet and relies on earth based dots and magic. Make the conjurer like eq1 make them able 2 create drinks water portals, weapons armor and shields for there pets. </P> <P> </P> <P>Im more or less asking for eq1 with eq2 graphics and game.</P>

[premiere]

<P>Question</P> <P> </P> <P>If Rangers/assasins are the Rangers of EQ1 in EQ2</P> <P>And Swashbucklers/Brigands are the rogues of EQ1 in EQ2</P> <P> </P> <P>And Rogues out dpsed Rangers in EQ1</P> <P>Why make The Rogues of EQ2 which by roleplaying alone are known as the best class to play to put out major DPS weaker?</P> <P> </P> <P>Swash/Brigs need to be up there with Wiz/Warlocks</P> <P> </P> <P>In EQ1 Rangers got the big number hits and eye candy while rogues put out the serious DPS over time</P> <P> </P> <P>This is stupid moorgard you are an idiot and so is everyone on your staff for forgetting and overcommercializing such a simple thing which is known as the RPG.</P> <P>Throughout history since DnD every "class" has always fit into the same genre..........who died and gave you all the right to change that?</P> <P> </P> <P>Down with the past forward with poetic license. </P> <P> </P> <P>"lets go burn some copies of DnD"</P>

[Cuz]

<P>Wooo I just got dumber after reading that last post.</P> <P>So now back to your point at hand. What would you give up for your DPS boost? For all the insulting you've done you haven't brought up any plan what so ever. You just basically said Swashbucklers/Brigands should out DPS all scouts, but you didn't mention what you'd religate. You can't have all the utility Swashbucklers/Brigands have and top DPS too. Next post you should also mention that since you can taunt you should have Guardian AC. </P> <DIV>Finally stop making assumptions. There's a saying about that: it makes you stupid. Or something like that. </DIV>

[Armill]

Yeah that was a pretty dumb post...me no understand am are rogues more should do better because am I are EQ1 be let me say that it is...Ranger are no silly whoop noop noop gooda booda hit are I big am in the brain with the we wizard do much rogue be am are better DPS so let me are I we should burn things...

[Feaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WolfShark wrote:<BR> <DIV><I><B>from ask soe #37 <A href="http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43" target=_blank>http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43</A></B></I> <STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><I><B>Sassee:</B> Part of the changes coming to spells and combat arts is to adjust how much damage the various classes do in relation to each other. Can you tell us how the different subclasses will rank in relative damage potential?</I><BR>  </FONT><FONT color=#66ffff><B>Steve "Moorgard" Danuser:</B> Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest.<BR><BR>First group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Wizard/Warlock </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Assassin/Ranger</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Second group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Brigand/Swashbuckler</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Third group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Troubador/Dirge </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Bruiser/Monk </FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Fourth group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Berserker/Shadowknight </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Paladin/Guardian</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Fifth group: </FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Fury/Warden </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Defiler/Mystic </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ffff>Inquisitor/Templar</FONT></LI></UL> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#66ffff>Keep in mind that these aren't absolutes. </FONT><STRONG><FONT color=#66ffff>A Guardian who concentrates on damage output and upgrades his or her offensive abilities could surpass a Berserker who focuses on defensive capabilities.</FONT> </STRONG></DIV> <P>So does that conversely mean that a zerker that "concentrates on defence" can out defence a guardian "concentrating on offence"?</P> <P>And what we talking about here anyway?  A guard with adept 3 offence skill vs a zerker that has left all the offence skills at app 1?</P> <P>Is this is really just "if you have all adept 1's in every skill, zerker has more offence and guard has more defence but that can swap round with adept 3's vs app 1's"?, Ie what we have now, in which case fair enough, i guess... maybe.... but it is a shift of role fot the class very late in the game that i won't be happy about....</P> <P>Or are we talking a(nother) major nerf to zerker dps here moorgard? Ie down close to a guardians offence?</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>If we're going to become very similar to guards in offence i can cope with that i guess provided our defence is close too.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><SPAN class=time_text>This is not a moan, but i would like to know where the class is going....</SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by WolfShark on <SPAN class=date_text>06-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:39 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>I think he is talking about training choices in that last line there.   If you put a lot into str rather than sta for instance that should shift that balance and then there is always the art all tanks get that sacrifices damage for midigation.   So there are choices to make that shift the balance slightly but they are made by the player them selves rather than hard written into class.   </P><p>Message Edited by Feawin on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:56 AM</span>

[Feaw]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> premiere wrote:<BR> <P>Question</P> <P> </P> <P>If Rangers/assasins are the Rangers of EQ1 in EQ2</P> <P>And Swashbucklers/Brigands are the rogues of EQ1 in EQ2</P> <P> </P> <P>And Rogues out dpsed Rangers in EQ1</P> <P>Why make The Rogues of EQ2 which by roleplaying alone are known as the best class to play to put out major DPS weaker?</P> <P> </P> <P>Swash/Brigs need to be up there with Wiz/Warlocks</P> <P> </P> <P>In EQ1 Rangers got the big number hits and eye candy while rogues put out the serious DPS over time</P> <P> </P> <P>This is stupid moorgard you are an idiot and so is everyone on your staff for forgetting and overcommercializing such a simple thing which is known as the RPG.</P> <P>Throughout history since DnD every "class" has always fit into the same genre..........who died and gave you all the right to change that?</P> <P> </P> <P>Down with the past forward with poetic license. </P> <P> </P> <P>"lets go burn some copies of DnD"</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This isnt EQ1.   :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cypherus]

<P>yes your so right this isn't eq2, necros are so [Removed for Content] lol.</P> <P> </P> <P>I made a drastic decision last night. Im going back to ffx pretty sure. Im going 2 play both for a month see whats more fun and make a decision. FFX classes are much better designed, but there tradeskilling is allot to be desired.</P> <P>Apparently u can solo in eq2 I have yet to relaly see this, I don;t consider killing whites soloing when your almost dead after each fight.</P> <P> </P> <P>far as I remember soloing in ffx wasn;t common unless your a summoner/ beastmaster.</P> <P>Another thing ffx has over eq2 is that each class has there own artifact armor at 50+ not only does it look sweet but it boosts that classes role/abilties.</P> <P>If they had a proper sk in eq2 I dunno what id pick, anyways Im going to levle my crus to sk and see how it compares to a dk in ffx. from all the negative posts about sks, Im pretty sure who the winner is before i start. Anyways its sad to see a game that had so much potential become what it is now, a game that the devs wanted to make classes so called balance in there terms, but totally got rid of roleplaying or even class specification. Instead of classes that have defined roles and abilities, eq2 is based on all classes have same roles abilities, just some are more better at them. The only difference in subclasses are the names!</P> <P>I wish you all the ebst of luck perhaps if soe one day listens to the gamers and do as they asked, with classes and forget about this idea of balance because its not balanced by far. There is no reason to make every class in the game doing the same damage, to call the game balanced. otherwise we all just be pallys who heal rez deal dmg tank why would we even need healers mages or scouts!</P>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>Bah.... about the thing of rouge vs pred, it's very easy to fix...even bard too.</P> <P>If mob has desent defense, the pred will never hit for full damage. If rouge's attacks are slightly weaker than pred, but rouge can greatly lower mobs defense, then they come out about even. If bard's get the ability to raise groups combatart damage and spell damage though their buffs, then they evenout closer. but here is the fun part... mix them all together and u have a vulnerable mob getting hit by 3 scouts that are being amplified by songs and one of them gets to do insainly high damage now. </P> <P>Harmony baby :smileywink:</P> <DIV>Rouge opens up target's armor that makes way for Predators higher damage skill while bard increases all of there damage. Rouges unhinge the armor, bard rallies them on, and pred makes that deadly strike.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Same can be applied to mages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Summoner lowers mobs spell resists making way for soceror's (and summoners DPS pet's) damageing nukes which are all being augmented by enchanter's buffs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plenty of versitility here.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 PM</span>

[L1m]

Funny no versatility in the fighters being mentioned? Coz were just all tanks no? <div></div>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>^................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....</P> <P>that made no sence what so ever and YOU know it.... you have read tons of my posts about how to balanace fighter tanking(as well as a lot of other archetpye core role posts). This specific reply had nothing what so ever to do with fighters, it was about a completely different subject, Rouge's extra utility vs Predator higher damage. </P> <P>Read... it's good for you. And please dont make stupid short posts to just make a negative comment. go back to any of your more recient post on the Berzerker, Spells and skills, or combat pages, i have talked alot about fighter equallity. For you to insult me for saying in a unrelated reply that i basicaly dont give a flip about fighter balance is just stupid. I would link all my posts but im too tired atm to give a care about your opinions. I allways go into a post with an open mind unless i know from former posts that said person has no concern for making the game better, but insted, a close minded, one track mind that only focuses on one goal and if anyone posts (or in my case replies) to or about someting not regarding their complant, then they are suddenly "not important enough" or "you favor X over my Y"</P> <P>Grow up. Well, im only 16 so age isnt real the issue. Try this then. Learn to read and, more importantly, learn to comprehend and understand when it is approptiate for a subject to be brought into an active conversation that completely changes the conversation at hand.</P> <P>I wish you luck in your life, Limey, because if you go though life like this, you will need alot of luck to live past 21.</P> <P>Toodles!</P><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 PM</span>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yeebo wrote:<BR> I have had a vision of the future.  A few classes will get a DPS buff, but for most it will greatly decrease.  Combats will take longer, it will take longer to level, and many classes will lose the ability to solo effectively.  Specifically, soloing as a healer or tank will become a lesson in pain because your DPS will be about half of what it is now.  There will be much whining and gnashing of keyboards, and many will cancel their accounts.    <BR> <P>Message Edited by Yeebo on <SPAN class=date_text>07-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Bingo, not that I solo much anymore at 50, but as I was growing in levels I enjoyed being able to solo when I couldnt find a group or wasnt in the mood to group. I see this severely handcuffing tanks ability to solo. THis is only a small side effect of the bigger changes comming down the pike. </P> <P>I didnt play SWG much at all, but the the story is consistant, the major overhaul of the combat system drove many away. I certainly hope the devs take their sweet time and think these changes through very carefully.</P>

[Dojoc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> premiere wrote:<BR> <P>Question</P> <P> </P> <P>If Rangers/assasins are the Rangers of EQ1 in EQ2</P> <P>And Swashbucklers/Brigands are the rogues of EQ1 in EQ2</P> <P> </P> <P>And Rogues out dpsed Rangers in EQ1</P> <P>Why make The Rogues of EQ2 which by roleplaying alone are known as the best class to play to put out major DPS weaker?</P> <P> </P> <P>Swash/Brigs need to be up there with Wiz/Warlocks</P> <P> </P> <P>In EQ1 Rangers got the big number hits and eye candy while rogues put out the serious DPS over time</P> <P> </P> <P>This is stupid moorgard you are an idiot and so is everyone on your staff for forgetting and overcommercializing such a simple thing which is known as the RPG.</P> <P>Throughout history since DnD every "class" has always fit into the same genre..........who died and gave you all the right to change that?</P> <P> </P> <P>Down with the past forward with poetic license. </P> <P> </P> <P>"lets go burn some copies of DnD"</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL :smileyvery-happy:

[BloodSmo]

Yay bottom of group 5..............the thing that bothers me is who will be the better healer still wardens i would expect........an Inquis Alch clearly wasn't the way to go :smileyvery-happy: