Test Server

[[sp00k]]

<DIV>Can we please get an OPTION to have our toon's copied over to test.  So us the community can help you SOE to test your patchs, updates and changes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PLEASE ALLOW US TO COPY OUR TOON's TO TEST!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the 1 Gadgillionth time this has been asked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kreegan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> [sp00k] wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the 1 Gadgillionth time this has been asked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And how many answers do you need before you stop asking?</P> <P>Some people are like Bart and Lisa Simpson, always asking "Can we go to Mount Spashmore?" no matter how many times you're told no.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Kyriel]

^agree

[sglant]

<DIV>It is a legitimate question though. They want more people on test, but alot of people do not want to create a new character and start from scratch. Some people like testing the low level things, but most want to test the high level zones/mobs/spells/abilites/etc.</DIV> <DIV>I would love to go try out Test, if I could have my characters copied there as well.</DIV> <DIV>It doesnt hurt anything, nothing is kept and given back to your real character, and you get to help test new things that roughly 1/2 the EQ2 world is wanting... (I guestimate at least 50% of players are 35+ or have one character 35+).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When this option is given (and trust me, it has for select people), I will play around on Test and see how things are faring there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gorkk00]

Long ago i thought about getting another illusionist toon on Test. Guess what, i was ALONE on Isle of Refuge, and there was near to nobody in Antonica and such. And guess what, illusionist is one of the worst soloing class. How do they except to have people testing those class on test if we can't copy temporarily our chars on test to test some features? They do it with some high end guild to test high end content, why couldn't we do it to test regular content (from level 10 to 50)? Let's just erase the copy on test at the end of each testing period, and limit the number of chars copied to a certain amount to prevent test server to be overcrowded, with a limit for each range of levels? People want to test things on test server, and not only hardcore players who play 20/24 7/7. As this game is intended for casual players too (let's say 2h a day on week days, and 6 a day on week end), SoE should allow such people to test new features too, without forcing them to make a new char on test for doing it. The only way to have casual players testing is to have them playing exclusively on test right now, so it won't happen a lot. <div></div>

[Macross_JR]

They stated they don't want to copy characters over because they want dedicated people playing on test.  They feel if they only copy characters that the owners of said characters will only play on test to get insider information on quests and stuff, find bugs to use on the live servers, and so on and so on.  I have thought about how it would be a good thing to copy characters over, but in the long run I see how people would exploit it.

[Gorkk00]

<div></div>True, some could exploit it. But they'll have lots more feedback, and not only for the easiest soloing classes. Those hard to solo classes are for the most of them classes that are not played alot, partly because of that (chanters, dirges), and then, fixes to these never come, and when then come they fix nearly nothing because there's none of them high enough at the concerned level on test server. There's not enough people playing on test server for SoE to have a good feedback. Putting a limit as i suggested earlier could help to avoid partly the exploits, and let SoE have feedbacks. And why not add that if people having their character copied on test don't give feedback, they won't be able to copy it again. Then, even if their main reason is to give insiders info regarding possible exploits for their char on live server, there'll be much more feedback for SoE and a better ability to fix various issues, and limit these possible exploits too. They copy some high end guilds on test, so they also want to have people testing their fix, not only people dedicated to test server with a char leveled up on test. So why couldn't they do the same for lower level chars? High end changes for guild need to be massively tested, but rest of the game too! [Edit] In addition, it would be easier to actualy see the ingame changes of the code changes if you can compare how  the same char with same gear and same level is doing before and after changes, don't you think? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorkk00 on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:45 AM</span>

[Arashi]

Instead of geting your chars copyed over if your worring about the less played hard to solo classes, how about getting your friends together and spending 1 day a week playing as a group on test. With your friends you should be able to level at a reasonable pace and it gives you something to do on days when you cant get all your friends togther on live. And if you think one of the classes cant solo well then come on test and play that class and give feedback on how it can be inproved. The Devs have stated that they are trying to ballance solo, dual, small group and Full group play. Give them a hand at it.

[Tag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arashisr wrote:<BR>Instead of geting your chars copyed over if your worring about the less played hard to solo classes, how about getting your friends together and spending 1 day a week playing as a group on test. With your friends you should be able to level at a reasonable pace and it gives you something to do on days when you cant get all your friends togther on live. And if you think one of the classes cant solo well then come on test and play that class and give feedback on how it can be inproved. The Devs have stated that they are trying to ballance solo, dual, small group and Full group play. Give them a hand at it. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That 1 day a week playing on test might just be the day that me and my friends would have gotten something fabled if we had raided. Why do anything for the devs?  They obviously do not care about having us test. </P> <P>If the devs wanted people to really test they would allow us to copy our characters. Better yet the devs would allow us to build our characters on test like they finally did in SWG with the "blue frogs". </P> <P>If the devs wanted testers they would make playing on test easy not make you manually copy files and make shortcuts to play on test, this is the best proof yet that they do not want us testing it would be childishly simple for them to make a program to install test on players computers.</P>

[[sp00k]]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Macross_JR wrote:<BR>They stated they don't want to copy characters over because they want dedicated people playing on test.  They feel if they only copy characters that the owners of said characters will only play on test to get insider information on quests and stuff, find bugs to use on the live servers, and so on and so on.  I have thought about how it would be a good thing to copy characters over, but in the long run I see how people would exploit it. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, this very well could be true.  However who's to stop them from playing on the live servers learning exploits and bugs to take advanage of.  It makes no sense to not give us High End Players a chance to test and give feedback on test.  SOE messes up all the time with their dumb patchs and updates so let us players get on test to make sure SOE is getting all the information possible.  I can tell you without a doubt NO ONE plays on test dedicated. (maybe a few people but not enough to put a raid together)  They did allow one guild to transfer over but that is Total BS.  (You know they are not dedicated to playing on Test. so that statement is BS)  SOE is scared that we he community will find out that all their patchs and updates are full of bugs and no update will ever make it to live.

[Cuz]

"That 1 day a week playing on test might just be the day that me and my friends would have gotten something fabled if we had raided. Why do anything for the devs?  They obviously do not care about having us test. " <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe they should give all the high level players that create new characters on test fable items every time they play on test? I mean they have to show some appreciation for your hard effort right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is loot really that essential? Do you really enjoy the game if it is? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The OP really wants to help SoE, granted he's a bit aggressive, but he does want to do good. And like others have said, copying characters might hinder the players that make Test there home. Also people would exploit what ever they could. There's no "if"s there. As for you Tagga, well, lets just say that we have very different priorities. </DIV>

[Tag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR>"That 1 day a week playing on test might just be the day that me and my friends would have gotten something fabled if we had raided. Why do anything for the devs?  They obviously do not care about having us test. " <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe they should give all the high level players that create new characters on test fable items every time they play on test? I mean they have to show some appreciation for your hard effort right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is loot really that essential? Do you really enjoy the game if it is?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The OP really wants to help SoE, granted he's a bit aggressive, but he does want to do good. And like others have said, copying characters might hinder the players that make Test there home. Also people would exploit what ever they could. There's no "if"s there. As for you Tagga, well, lets just say that we have very different priorities.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Did you read the rest of the post? I don't want paid to test but I don't want to be penalized to test either. Right now we are penalized as it takes away from our regular playing time to level a new character. Why should we have to level a new character when we are providing a test service for SOE? I thought we were paying SOE to provide a service for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"If the devs wanted people to really test they would allow us to copy our characters. Better yet the devs would allow us to build our characters on test like they finally did in SWG with the "blue frogs". <P>If the devs wanted testers they would make playing on test easy not make you manually copy files and make shortcuts to play on test, this is the best proof yet that they do not want us testing it would be childishly simple for them to make a program to install test on players computers."</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>If the devs wanted to get more players to test they would allow copying or building characters through some sort of interface.</P> <P>And yes loot is essential or are we playing two different games?</P></DIV>

[Gorkk00]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Arashisr wrote:Instead of geting your chars copyed over if your worring about the less played hard to solo classes, how about getting your friends together and spending 1 day a week playing as a group on test. With your friends you should be able to level at a reasonable pace and it gives you something to do on days when you cant get all your friends togther on live. And if you think one of the classes cant solo well then come on test and play that class and give feedback on how it can be inproved. The Devs have stated that they are trying to ballance solo, dual, small group and Full group play. Give them a hand at it. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Remind me, is the game still beta? no. And i should take at least 1/7th of my play time regularly to be able to test the game and help improve it? And as i stated before, it's much more easier to see the actual effect of changes if you can compare with the VERY SAME character, with the VERY SAME equipment and so on. Let's say i play 1 day a week on test with a fresh char, beginning main char and test char together. Then by the time my main is 50, the test toon has been played 6 times less and will be something like 30-35. Supposing i'm somebody who is a fan of a particular class and is making the same char on test and live, how can you correctly test changes with two such different chars? (50 vs 30-35). Simply you can't really. And that's why the testing is not efficient, added with the fact there's not enough testers. Tests should be done with copy of live chars to actually see the differences coming from test changes only, without any effect of difference of level/class/equipment/spell upgrades between your main toon and your test toon. If SoE wanted a useful amount of testers at every steps of the game, and efficient testing, they should allow characters copy (with some quota to be sure to have testers at each level range, and not only 50s for example). People who would go there to find exploits or have fresher info about quests? Well for quests, it allow them to complete them earlier on live, well no big deal, except for specials like frog unlock... Exploits? I think it would be waste of time for exploiters: - if things they find to exploit go live, they only got the exploit few days earlier - most things won't ever go live, so waste of time for them. In the end what's the benefit for SoE? - more testers, with casual and hardcore gamers - people really testing the game, and not just playing on the test server. Some people are playing exclusively on test (it seems the economy is particular there). It doesn't allow to test really well the changes. Best to test a change is to compare before and after, and when you can go see again before to check if it was not a wrong remembrance of what was before. - more efficient testing, as you can actually see what the changes effects are, without a point of view not biased by different char/gear/spell upgrade/level, and can go from previous state to changed state back and forth to have a more precise view of what the changes do. That's my point of view. IMHO there will be much more benefit for SoE AND players community if they did it like that. I really think it's absurd that test server can be used as a everyday playing server, it should not be like that imho. [Edit] Tagga's suggestion of allowing building char for testing on test is good too, maybe even better, as you can test changes made on abilities effect etc. by just making several chars with different stats in there.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorkk00 on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:13 PM</span>

[Na]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tagga wrote: <p>That 1 day a week playing on test might just be the day that me and my friends would have gotten something fabled if we had raided. Why do anything for the devs?  They obviously do not care about having us test. <font color="#ff0000">They don't care about having us test? The devs have done everything but plead to get players to come to the test server. The 50% xp bonus was nothing but an incentive to get people to come. The problem is people's perception of what the test server is. The test server is just like every other server out there with the exception that it gets content first. It has it's own economy, it has it's own community. Both of these would be disrupted if a flood of characters were allowed to be copied over. The devs have stated several times that they want to build a strong community on test which is why they allow people to move but not copy their characters there. They want test server to be your main server.  Would you want hundreds (thousands?) of characters to be copied to your server? </font> </p> <p>If the devs wanted testers they would make playing on test easy not make you manually copy files and make shortcuts to play on test, this is the best proof yet that they do not want us testing it would be childishly simple for them to make a program to install test on players computers. <font color="#ff0000">They've done something like this in the past, maybe not with EQ2 but definately with EQ Live and got a lot of complaints about it. The problem was that the same launcher was used to log into test and into the live servers. This would cause you to have to sit through lengthy downloads or re-patches of files everytime you switched from the test server to live servers. So having 2 seperate directories is actually much quicker and easier.  But if you want the patcher to do everything for you, you could just move the Eq2test executable to it's own directory and launch...then sit and wait for it to download every single file that it needs. Manually copying the files from one directory to another took me all of 12 minutes to complete compared to the hour+ I would need to download them.</font> </p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Gorkk00]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nazz04355 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Tagga wrote: <p>That 1 day a week playing on test might just be the day that me and my friends would have gotten something fabled if we had raided. Why do anything for the devs?  They obviously do not care about having us test. <font color="#ff0000">They don't care about having us test? The devs have done everything but plead to get players to come to the test server. The 50% xp bonus was nothing but an incentive to get people to come. The problem is people's perception of what the test server is. The test server is just like every other server out there with the exception that it gets content first. It has it's own economy, it has it's own community. Both of these would be disrupted if a flood of characters were allowed to be copied over. The devs have stated several times that they want to build a strong community on test which is why they allow people to move but not copy their characters there. They want test server to be your main server.  Would you want hundreds (thousands?) of characters to be copied to your server? </font> </p> <p>If the devs wanted testers they would make playing on test easy not make you manually copy files and make shortcuts to play on test, this is the best proof yet that they do not want us testing it would be childishly simple for them to make a program to install test on players computers. <font color="#ff0000">They've done something like this in the past, maybe not with EQ2 but definately with EQ Live and got a lot of complaints about it. The problem was that the same launcher was used to log into test and into the live servers. This would cause you to have to sit through lengthy downloads or re-patches of files everytime you switched from the test server to live servers. So having 2 seperate directories is actually much quicker and easier.  But if you want the patcher to do everything for you, you could just move the Eq2test executable to it's own directory and launch...then sit and wait for it to download every single file that it needs. Manually copying the files from one directory to another took me all of 12 minutes to complete compared to the hour+ I would need to download them.</font> </p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Ok, so what the devs want is to have free dedicated testers? Then at least people playing exclusively and test and giving feedback should not pay to play. According to what you say they want people paying just to test their game. And it seems there is some that like to pay to test something. Generaly, companies actually PAY testers, not the opposite <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> What they should do I think is: - make the current test server a normal server. - create a new test server, where you can't just play on it like on every other server, with characters erased at each new patch, and the possibility to copy your char from live server to test and/or the possibility to build a char with equipment/level/spell upgrade specialy to test things on test server. That would be a really efficient testing, and would give much more benefit and feedback for SoE and Community.</span><div></div>

[Tag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazz04355 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tagga wrote:<BR> <P>That 1 day a week playing on test might just be the day that me and my friends would have gotten something fabled if we had raided. Why do anything for the devs?  They obviously do not care about having us test.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>They don't care about having us test? The devs have done everything but plead to get players to come to the test server. The 50% xp bonus was nothing but an incentive to get people to come. The problem is people's perception of what the test server is. The test server is just like every other server out there with the exception that it gets content first. It has it's own economy, it has it's own community. Both of these would be disrupted if a flood of characters were allowed to be copied over. The devs have stated several times that they want to build a strong community on test which is why they allow people to move but not copy their characters there. They want test server to be your main server.  Would you want hundreds (thousands?) of characters to be copied to your server?<BR><BR></FONT></P> <P>If the devs wanted testers they would make playing on test easy not make you manually copy files and make shortcuts to play on test, this is the best proof yet that they do not want us testing it would be childishly simple for them to make a program to install test on players computers.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>They've done something like this in the past, maybe not with EQ2 but definately with EQ Live and got a lot of complaints about it. The problem was that the same launcher was used to log into test and into the live servers. This would cause you to have to sit through lengthy downloads or re-patches of files everytime you switched from the test server to live servers. So having 2 seperate directories is actually much quicker and easier.  But if you want the patcher to do everything for you, you could just move the Eq2test executable to it's own directory and launch...then sit and wait for it to download every single file that it needs. Manually copying the files from one directory to another took me all of 12 minutes to complete compared to the hour+ I would need to download them.</FONT><BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No matter how much they say the test server is a viable server it is not and never will be. </DIV> <DIV><BR>Clear the test server out and copy 1 regular server a month to the new blank test server or <BR>make a new test server to copy the live servers to and leave the current test server as it is. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The best thing to do is make a new test server and allow characters to be built there or just <BR>give us a command /level_me to level our test characters 1 level then we could level to 50 by typing this command 50 times. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh wait that would eliminate the timesink of leveling on test, it would also allow us to see how broken a class really is. </DIV> <DIV>This is the real reason SOE does not want a viable test server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for using the same launcher that is their mistake they could easily make a seperate program to download that program could </DIV> <DIV>copy over your current game folder add a shortcut to your desktop and you would just have to patch the changed files from your live game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No SOE does not want EQ2 to really be tested.</DIV>

[SavinDwa]

<P>I understand where you are coming from, but I really don't think that people think through what this means before they suggest it.</P> <P>let's start of by saying that the test server has a community of players who have built up their characters the hardway.  AND even though the test server gets lots of risky stuff and has a bit mroe down time the bulk of the testers live on this server.  So they would have every right to be very annoyed if a bunch of people just got their characters copied.  In addition, for whatever reason, it has a very friendly bunch of people on it that are much  more willing to discuss things with the developers and try things out without calling everyone else a [Removed for Content] in the process LOL.  95% of the posters to the test section of this board do not eeven have a character on test.</P> <P>The next thing to think about is (and I'm one of these LOL) I would like to have my characters copied to test so I could test stuff, but I really don't want everyone to be able to do it or anytime something new arroves the test server will get overloaded and crash.  In addition, everytime the main servers are down the test server would get overloaded and crash.  this means that the players who live on the test server would now be down when the test server is downa nd down when the live servers are down as well.</P> <P>So... and I think everyone has to agree with this, we don;t want every player to be able to copy their toons over to the test server if that means that they can all log on to the etst server any time the live server is down.</P> <P>The next issue is that there is a big difference between "testing and giving good feed back" tp just playing the game.  So, the last think we wnat is increasing the number of players on the test server 100x and having 99x of them not know how to first make sure its a bug, 2) take the time to fillout a bug report in a way that the develoeprs can easily recreate the issue and 3) being players that don't know how to work with others to make sure lots of diffeent things are tested and well documented (the current test server population is not as good as it could be in this regards..but this would make it worse).  </P> <P>The big problem on the test server is it doesn;t have a normal active economy.  But everyone copying a toon is going to make that worse not better.</P> <P>Testing things like raids and very tough group encounters requires a group of people to come across together and for the express purpsoe of testing something.  My thought there is to just do some copies when its needed.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway, how would the copy work? Is it a one time thing?  Can I recopy any time I want?  If its a one time thing then I will quickly find myself in the position that my toon on the test server is 10 levels behind my current person and what does that do?  If I can copy anytime I want its exploit city (give all your money and stuff to a toon and copy, now give it all to the next toon and copy, etc.. if you have lots of friends and between you you had 100 plat and 100 characters you could quickly have 100 characters on test each with 100 plat.</P> <P>So, as much as I would like to have "my" characters copied, I don;t want everyone's characters copied.</P>

[Na]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tagga wrote: <div>No matter how much they say the test server is a viable server it is not and never will be. <font color="#ff0000">I think the people who make the test server their home would disagree with you. Believe it or not there are people who ONLY play on this server. It has it's own economy and it's own community. So why does this eliminate it from being a vaible server? Just because it has a lower population?</font> </div> <div>Clear the test server out and copy 1 regular server a month to the new blank test server or make a new test server to copy the live servers to and leave the current test server as it is. </div> <div> </div> <div>The best thing to do is make a new test server and allow characters to be built there or just give us a command /level_me to level our test characters 1 level then we could level to 50 by typing this command 50 times. <font color="#ff0000">Do this and the only thing you'll end up testing is the level 50 content. There will be a few people who will test the low or mid-level stuff but no where near the amount of people who will create a level 50 toon and thats it. Content can just as easily break at level 14 as it can at level 50. I was in the beta program for Lost Dungeons of Norrath for EQ Live. I created a level 25 char to test out the lower level missions. I was the only one on the beta server for a 3 hour period that wasn't level 60.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>Oh wait that would eliminate the timesink of leveling on test, it would also allow us to see how broken a class really is. </div> <div>This is the real reason SOE does not want a viable test server. <font color="#ff0000">How is this any different then seeing how broken a class is on the live server? The changes that go onto test eventually make their way to the live server (in some form or another). Seeing that it doesn't work on test isn't any different than seeing that it doesn't work on Blackburrow or Crushbone (or whatever your server is). And have you actually started a character on test? With the 50% xp bonus, leveling is no where near the timesink you think it is.  Are you going to get to 50 at the end of your first day? No, but you'll get to be much higher level than you would if you were playing on a live server.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>As for using the same launcher that is their mistake they could easily make a seperate program to download that program could </div> <div>copy over your current game folder add a shortcut to your desktop and you would just have to patch the changed files from your live game. <font color="#ff0000">Sure they could, but why? How is it any easier to make a program to copy over your files to a new location than to do it in windows explorer (or whatever program you use for file management)? Plus it will still take longer for the program to do it than you doing it manually due to software latency. And then the program would need to check to see if the user wants to create a new location instead of just using the testserver folder in the EQ2 directory.  The directions to copy the files to a  test server folder are pretty simple, there really should be no one who gets confused on how to do this.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div>No SOE does not want EQ2 to really be tested.</div><font color="#ff0000">Yes, they do. Otherwise they could simply not have a test server and do all their testing internally. </font><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Tag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazz04355 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tagga wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>No matter how much they say the test server is a viable server it is not and never will be.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I think the people who make the test server their home would disagree with you. Believe it or not there are people who ONLY play on this server. It has it's own economy and it's own community. So why does this eliminate it from being a vaible server? Just because it has a lower population?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes the test server is a waste and is not viable for that simple fact there are not enough people there, SOE could easily make it viable.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR>Clear the test server out and copy 1 regular server a month to the new blank test server or<BR>make a new test server to copy the live servers to and leave the current test server as it is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The best thing to do is make a new test server and allow characters to be built there or just<BR>give us a command /level_me to level our test characters 1 level then we could level to 50 by typing this command 50 times.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Do this and the only thing you'll end up testing is the level 50 content. There will be a few people who will test the low or mid-level stuff but no where near the amount of people who will create a level 50 toon and thats it. Content can just as easily break at level 14 as it can at level 50. I was in the beta program for Lost Dungeons of Norrath for EQ Live. I created a level 25 char to test out the lower level missions. I was the only one on the beta server for a 3 hour period that wasn't level 60.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Ok then they could make it so they have targeted testing like make it so today you can make a level 15 instantly to test level 15 stuff. You can come up with all kinds of excuses why getting rid of the leveling timesink wont work but the system they have doesn't work anyway.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh wait that would eliminate the timesink of leveling on test, it would also allow us to see how broken a class really is.</DIV> <DIV>This is the real reason SOE does not want a viable test server.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>How is this any different then seeing how broken a class is on the live server? The changes that go onto test eventually make their way to the live server (in some form or another). Seeing that it doesn't work on test isn't any different than seeing that it doesn't work on Blackburrow or Crushbone (or whatever your server is). And have you actually started a character on test? With the 50% xp bonus, leveling is no where near the timesink you think it is.  Are you going to get to 50 at the end of your first day? No, but you'll get to be much higher level than you would if you were playing on a live server.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>This would allow you to see instantly how a class is broken without having to level to 50 and waste 6 weeks.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for using the same launcher that is their mistake they could easily make a seperate program to download that program could</DIV> <DIV>copy over your current game folder add a shortcut to your desktop and you would just have to patch the changed files from your live game.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Sure they could, but why? How is it any easier to make a program to copy over your files to a new location than to do it in windows explorer (or whatever program you use for file management)? Plus it will still take longer for the program to do it than you doing it manually due to software latency. And then the program would need to check to see if the user wants to create a new location instead of just using the testserver folder in the EQ2 directory.  The directions to copy the files to a  test server folder are pretty simple, there really should be no one who gets confused on how to do this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Why? Cause there is basically nobody home on the test server. There are usually 20-30 people on the whole server when I play there. Mostly are probably those raiding guilds copied from live. If SOE wanted more testers they would remove the barriers they have in place. Why do they make it harder to test if they really want testers?</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No SOE does not want EQ2 to really be tested.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Yes, they do. Otherwise they could simply not have a test server and do all their testing internally.<BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>This is just too funny "</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>testing internally</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>" they don't test internally or at least their internal testing is the same as not testing. They don't even listen to the few players on test that report problems just look at all of their live updates, you will find many reports of problems that made it to live and had to be hotfixed. They have a test server I think for public relations since they don't even listen to testers anyway.</FONT><BR></DIV> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Tagga on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:29 PM</span>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tagga wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Why? Cause there is basically nobody home on the test server. There are usually 20-30 people on the whole server when I play there. Mostly are probably those raiding guilds copied from live. If SOE wanted more testers they would remove the barriers they have in place. Why do they make it harder to test if they really want testers?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Tagga on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:29 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm one of those people who plays Test exclusively (I do have a couple of baby Live toons I make when Test is down for too long to feed my addiction, but they're not really of any importance).  I'm just curious, what time do you log in when you've tried Test?  Because the only times I've seen the Test population that low are (1) between 3 am and 9 am EST (midnight and 6 am pacific, I suppose) and (2) when the server's just come back from a bounce or patch, which is often.  (Nothing quite like being one of the first people back and having a /who all show 2 people, hehe.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, we have a small population, but it's not really as bad as you seem to think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And it's really, REALLY not hard to make testers.  EQ2 was my first ever online game and Test is my home server, and the only server I've actively played.  If I can figure it out, anyone can.</DIV>

[Tag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EtoilePB wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tagga wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Why? Cause there is basically nobody home on the test server. There are usually 20-30 people on the whole server when I play there. Mostly are probably those raiding guilds copied from live. If SOE wanted more testers they would remove the barriers they have in place. Why do they make it harder to test if they really want testers?</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Tagga on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:29 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm one of those people who plays Test exclusively (I do have a couple of baby Live toons I make when Test is down for too long to feed my addiction, but they're not really of any importance).  I'm just curious, what time do you log in when you've tried Test?  Because the only times I've seen the Test population that low are (1) between 3 am and 9 am EST (midnight and 6 am pacific, I suppose) and (2) when the server's just come back from a bounce or patch, which is often.  (Nothing quite like being one of the first people back and having a /who all show 2 people, hehe.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, we have a small population, but it's not really as bad as you seem to think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And it's really, REALLY not hard to make testers.  EQ2 was my first ever online game and Test is my home server, and the only server I've actively played.  If I can figure it out, anyone can.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Admittedly I play on test very rarely. Last time was about a month ago I usually get on between 10PM and midnight eastern time. </P> <P>Do you really think test server has a viable population? If the current population is viable then leave the test server as is, add a new server call it test 2, there let us build our characters without having to waste our time leveling. It is a waste of our time to level a test character and it takes away from our play time. It just shows that SOE is not really interested in testing. </P> <P>Why have us manually install test? There is no reason to not make the process totally pain free if you really want to get more people testing. Although me and you and some few others can go through this manual installation process it is a daunting task for some others, no reason not to make the process automatic.</P> <P> </P>

[Iseabeil]

<P>test must be left as it is, or the whole purpose of it is down the drain.</P> <P>having a test2 where you can /setlevel etc open at needs would be a very good idea tho. it should not be a always there server, only opened when there is new stuff the devs deem needing a real stress test for some reason.</P> <P>the main problem i see tho, will remain.... many bugs are reported in test, but still make it to live, the amount of testers and how its tested wont change this...</P>

[[sp00k]]

<P>I'm afriad I must step in here again.  Some of you have very valid points but not to the degree you prove your or justify your view.  Test server might have a community but if you do a "/who all" You will get less than 100 people playing on it at any given time.  I'm sorry but for a game that requires extensive testing and feedback this does not warrant protecting this community.  I am in no way bashing or wanting to step in on them but this game needs better testing.  I think the best solution to his would be to implement a type build your on toon rock or something to that degree.  This way all levels of the game can be tested.  This would be the same concept thats in SWG (Star Wars Galaxies).  However I can see how this method can have negative affects.  Such as no one would be willing to create a level 30 Character.  Everyone would be maxing out level 50's.  So now we fall back on copy your main over.  Which is still a VERY good solution.  People who have earned the right to be level 50 and know the game very well can test this game and you don't have a bunch of newbie level 50's running around that really do not understand what they are doing.  ("Hey look at me, I'm level 50)   (Offering a 50% exp bonus is not enough to get me to play on Test.  You get that with vitality.  300% exp bonus then I would think about it and might even give that a try but still not worth my time to level another toon that I will not take serious.)</P> <P>Regarding downtime and flooding the server.  I do not think that would ever happen period.  I know in my off time when I am not raiding I would be playing on test.  Providing feedback, bug reports, and testing the changes which will be coming over to live.  I hope some Dev's will read this thread and take it into consideration.  I think this is a very important issue that needs to be addressed.  I feel that if something was implemented then we could make this game better than all and SOE will be able to provide a more stable and fun product to its customer base.  </P> <P>Thanks,</P> <P>Whipem of Guk</P> <P>50 Inquisitor / 50 Armorer</P>

[Sunrayn]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In all the time people spend complaining and begging for character copies, they could have been playing on test a few hours a week and had a high level character there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really question the motives of people that want to have a character copied over to test instead of leveling one there.  It isnt that hard to find the test server, there is a FAQ here on it.  Not that difficult to search a bit.  Of course, those unwilling to actually set up for playing on test are the ones wanting it easier to play on test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It took me all of five minutes or so to set up.  All I did was copy the everquest folder to desktop, move it back into the sony folder, rename it EQTest, make a short cut of the Test exe and d/l the files after logging in.  *Its...not....that.....hard*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the arguements of 'I dont want to leave my friends, I have a high level character on live, I just want to come and test now and then, I just want to, I dont want to, Make it easier'  They dont fly with me.  My wife and I ditched our characters on Lucan to move to test, we missed the /movelog.  Big whoop, we started over.  Wasnt that difficult to get back to where we were on Lucan, made a bunch of friends, feel like we are actually a *part* of a community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, get off your as**** and stop begging.   Some people just want everything handed to them.</DIV>

[Na]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>[sp00k] wrote: <p>I'm afriad I must step in here again.  Some of you have very valid points but not to the degree you prove your or justify your view.  Test server might have a community but if you do a "/who all" You will get less than 100 people playing on it at any given time.  I'm sorry but for a game that requires extensive testing and feedback this does not warrant protecting this community. <font color="#ff0000">Regardless of it's population, it is a community.  It has a right to exist just like every other server. When something gets nerfed on the live servers it gets nerfed on test too. The only difference between test and ALL the other servers is that it gets content a week or so before everyone else. If SOE tried out new content on Guk, would you be so open to SOE allowing people to copy their chars to your server?</font> </p> <p>People who have earned the right to be level 50 and know the game very well can test this game and you don't have a bunch of newbie level 50's running around that really do not understand what they are doing.  ("Hey look at me, I'm level 50)  <font color="#ff0000">Are you suggesting that only level 50 chars should be copied over? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm seriously asking. And just because you've gotten level 50, it doesn't mean that you're a competent player. Or that you would be a good tester. The problem is that people equate level with quality.  What needs to be looked at is how much you EXPERIENCED the game, not how you reached level 50.  I could have gotten level 50 by spending all my time in the new Splitpaw zones, does that make me qualified to test all the new content? </font> </p> <p>Offering a 50% exp bonus is not enough to get me to play on Test.  You get that with vitality.  <font color="#ff0000">The 50% bonus is on top of what you get for vitality. So as long as you have any amount of vitality you're gaining 150% xp for each kill and each item made in tradeskills. </font></p> <p><span>300% exp bonus then I would think about it and might even give that a try but still not worth my time to level another toon that I will not take serious. <font color="#ff0000">Ah..you see that's the main problem. Characters on test need to be taken as seriously as any other character on any other server. Otherwise what's the point? By allowing people to copy over characters that they are only going to play when it's time to test a new patch, you're introducing burst testing. That means a sudden increase in the amount of items for sale on brokers, the amount of goods purchased by players and competition for content that isn't there otherwise. Then when the patch is done, server economy goes back to the way it was before. Don't you think that's adding an unstable variable to the server?</font> </span></p> <p>Regarding downtime and flooding the server.  I do not think that would ever happen period.  I know in my off time when I am not raiding I would be playing on test.  Providing feedback, bug reports, and testing the changes which will be coming over to live. <font color="#ff0000">What's to stop you from doing this now?  It's not just the high level content that needs to be tested and that's one of the reasons why SOE isn't copying characters over. If you look at the track record of content added, the range has been 20+.  That means that level 20 content needs to be tested just as much as level 50 content. </font> </p> <p>  I hope some Dev's will read this thread and take it into consideration.  I think this is a very important issue that needs to be addressed. <font color="#ff0000">I don't think it's the number of testers that's the issue. It's the fact that the feedback and bug reports aren't given enough attention by the right people. Throwing 500 new characters on the test server isn't going to necessarily increase the number of bugs that are found, if those bug reports aren't acted upon. And I think this is where SOE needs to step up to the plate and make some improvements.</font>  </p> <hr></blockquote></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Nazz04355 on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:59 AM</span>

[Fire&ice]

<DIV>My husband and I both have lvl 45+ characters on Everfrost server but we both made the move to Test. Same as Sunrayn above we missed the /movelog (/shrug oh well) Yeah we do miss our higher lvls but ya know what, after working a little each day for a few weeks we both have a character on there in the 30's. Of course we aren't rushing anything so we aren't lvling as fast as I am sure a person wanting to get a very high lvl would be. It would do no good to have copies for the above stated reasons of exploits and other such things. Sorry but I have to agree with Sunrayn and say spend your time playing instead of trying to get the easy way out :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug :smileywink:</DIV>

[[sp00k]]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazz04355 wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> [sp00k] wrote:<BR> <P>I'm afriad I must step in here again.  Some of you have very valid points but not to the degree you prove your or justify your view.  Test server might have a community but if you do a "/who all" You will get less than 100 people playing on it at any given time.  I'm sorry but for a game that requires extensive testing and feedback this does not warrant protecting this community.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Regardless of it's population, it is a community.  It has a right to exist just like every other server. When something gets nerfed on the live servers it gets nerfed on test too. The only difference between test and ALL the other servers is that it gets content a week or so before everyone else. If SOE tried out new content on Guk, would you be so open to SOE allowing people to copy their chars to your server?</FONT><BR><BR></P> <P>People who have earned the right to be level 50 and know the game very well can test this game and you don't have a bunch of newbie level 50's running around that really do not understand what they are doing.  ("Hey look at me, I'm level 50)  <BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Are you suggesting that only level 50 chars should be copied over? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm seriously asking. And just because you've gotten level 50, it doesn't mean that you're a competent player. Or that you would be a good tester. The problem is that people equate level with quality.  What needs to be looked at is how much you EXPERIENCED the game, not how you reached level 50.  I could have gotten level 50 by spending all my time in the new Splitpaw zones, does that make me qualified to test all the new content?<BR></FONT><BR></P> <P>Offering a 50% exp bonus is not enough to get me to play on Test.  You get that with vitality.  <BR><FONT color=#ff0000>The 50% bonus is on top of what you get for vitality. So as long as you have any amount of vitality you're gaining 150% xp for each kill and each item made in tradeskills. <BR></FONT></P> <P><SPAN>300% exp bonus then I would think about it and might even give that a try but still not worth my time to level another toon that I will not take serious.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Ah..you see that's the main problem. Characters on test need to be taken as seriously as any other character on any other server. Otherwise what's the point? By allowing people to copy over characters that they are only going to play when it's time to test a new patch, you're introducing burst testing. That means a sudden increase in the amount of items for sale on brokers, the amount of goods purchased by players and competition for content that isn't there otherwise. Then when the patch is done, server economy goes back to the way it was before. Don't you think that's adding an unstable variable to the server?</FONT><BR></SPAN></P> <P>Regarding downtime and flooding the server.  I do not think that would ever happen period.  I know in my off time when I am not raiding I would be playing on test.  Providing feedback, bug reports, and testing the changes which will be coming over to live.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>What's to stop you from doing this now?  It's not just the high level content that needs to be tested and that's one of the reasons why SOE isn't copying characters over. If you look at the track record of content added, the range has been 20+.  That means that level 20 content needs to be tested just as much as level 50 content. </FONT><BR></P> <P>  I hope some Dev's will read this thread and take it into consideration.  I think this is a very important issue that needs to be addressed.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I don't think it's the number of testers that's the issue. It's the fact that the feedback and bug reports aren't given enough attention by the right people. Throwing 500 new characters on the test server isn't going to necessarily increase the number of bugs that are found, if those bug reports aren't acted upon. And I think this is where SOE needs to step up to the plate and make some improvements.</FONT><BR><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Nazz04355 on <SPAN class=date_text>06-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>First you should under stand something.  Yes, Test server does have a right to have a community however this is a TEST server.  The community is the entire EQ 2 Population.  Which means every single person out there is part of its community.  It is a TEST server which means you test the patchs, updates, fixes, and added content before it is pushed out to the rest of the community.    Refering to Guk and SOE trying new content on Guk I would be all for it, if guk was a Test server at which point I would have never started playing on that server except to TEST content but otherwise I would not have a problem with that and I would be right back here asking to have my character transfer to "Guk Test Server".  My statement regarding level 50's was more so directed towards the lower level players which have not reached level 50.  Someone who like in most games wants to be at the top first and screw the bottom.  I.E. someone who never reached 35+.  Now as you say level 50 content is not the only content out there.  This is correct.  I for one would be testing out low 30+ content my self also with my ALT.  People who wish to copy to Test Server and wish to test out content there once or twice a week depending on the updates, fixes and such that are coming out are dedicated players who have played the game from day one.  (I'm not saying everyone but the majority is.)  Refering to my experience is something we do not need to go in.  I have completed most everything in game.  I've been and completed every instance there is.  I'm not saying I've done everything but I'm no slacker.  Saying that 10 people can properly test all the functions and content as it comes out compared to 100 people is an asinine statement.  Such as the Live Event Palgue quest which the content was not tested throughly.  I.E. Nek Castle The return with its pathing, chest bugs etc.  Which if we had 100+ playes on test would have been tested and brought to the attention of SOE before it went live.  Which in turn would cause less CSR Issues and SOE overall perception would go up.  I do think SOE looks at feedback, and bug reports in game but they do not have enough people on test to properly test all the content.  If one group goes through one instance with outa problem that is not to say a second group would go through it and find several bugs which the first group did not find.  If you write a term paper are you only going to proof read it your self.  No, you will in-list "several" people to proof read it and find errors.  Yes, there will be a flood of players within test but not enough to hurt the sever.  People are not gonna be playing on test as their main characters.  You will have some that will begin to play more often on test which will help the current community because they will have more people to level, group and quest with.  They might even begin to raid the harder content.  This will also give SOE a chance to test out harder contested raid mobs and also view how the combat changes will affect the new raid targets.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So until you can give me a good answer as to why SOE should not implement some type of copy, and/or Character maker tool you should not post anymore on this subject.  You have spoken your point.  I have taken this into consideration and have not found anything to justify why this should not happen.  The Main point = More people on test = Better tested content = Less bugs = More satisfied customers = better reputation for SOE   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Whipem of Guk</DIV> <DIV>50 Inquisitor / 50 Armorer</DIV>

[Na]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>[sp00k] wrote: <div> </div> <div>So until you can give me a good answer as to why SOE should not implement some type of copy, and/or Character maker tool you should not post anymore on this subject.  You have spoken your point.  I have taken this into consideration and have not found anything to justify why this should not happen.  The Main point = More people on test = Better tested content = Less bugs = More satisfied customers = better reputation for SOE   </div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks,</div> <div>Whipem of Guk</div> <div>50 Inquisitor / 50 Armorer</div><hr></blockquote>Wow man... here I thought we were having a good debate on the issue and you have to go get all mad about it.  First of all, unless you play on test, you have no idea what bugs have or have not been reported to SOE. For all you know, the buggy pathing in Nek Castle was reported via /feedback and /bug but either the devs didn't have time to fix it or it wasn't a priority.  Several times bugs appear on a live server and test server players have said that they reported it broken. Does that mean that those players are doing a bad job testing? No, it means that SOE has made a decision that it's not to be fixed at this time. Maybe they don't realize until after the files have been moved to the live servers that it's a worse bug than they thought and it does need to be fixed immediately after all. Secondly more people on test does NOT mean better tested content.  If there are 50 people on test, a bug will be reported once. If there are 5000 people, the same bug will be reported 100 times. As the devs have stated before, sending in a bug report about the same bug multiple times just slows down the whole process because you're taking away time that devs could be reading new bugs by having them read the same bug over and over again. And if those 5,000 people do find 5,000 different bugs, SOE still needs to prioritize bug fixes which means that bugs will STILL GO LIVE. Plus on top of that, as the devs have stated, copying the data from test to server can also introduce bugs. So some of the bugs that make it to live may not have even existed on the test server. And as far as the points you've made, I see nothing that justifies allowing people to copy their characters over. So I guess that just puts us at a stalemate eh?</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Nazz04355 on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 AM</span>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>[sp00k] wrote:<div>So until you can give me a good answer as to why SOE should not implement some type of copy, and/or Character maker tool you should not post anymore on this subject.  You have spoken your point.  I have taken this into consideration and have not found anything to justify why this should not happen.  The Main point = More people on test = Better tested content = Less bugs = More satisfied customers = better reputation for SOE   </div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks,</div> <div>Whipem of Guk</div> <div>50 Inquisitor / 50 Armorer</div><hr></blockquote>Spook, Dark ages of camelot implemented a copy/clone of live characters just like you (and many many before you) have suggested.  The end fact is that average server population there went from about 300 at prime time to about 60.  DAOC is similar enough to EQ2 to make the comparison and the playerbase is virtually the same that the outcome will be identical. Your "main point" is so full of assumption and inaccuracies, but I will just leave you with the above example.  </span><span></span><span> -Fekkin, Test Server </span><div></div>

[Tag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> [sp00k] wrote:<BR> <DIV>So until you can give me a good answer as to why SOE should not implement some type of copy, and/or Character maker tool you should not post anymore on this subject.  You have spoken your point.  I have taken this into consideration and have not found anything to justify why this should not happen.  The Main point = More people on test = Better tested content = Less bugs = More satisfied customers = better reputation for SOE   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Whipem of Guk</DIV> <DIV>50 Inquisitor / 50 Armorer</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Spook,<BR><BR>Dark ages of camelot implemented a copy/clone of live characters just like you (and many many before you) have suggested.  The end fact is that average server population there went from about 300 at prime time to about 60.  DAOC is similar enough to EQ2 to make the comparison and the playerbase is virtually the same that the outcome will be identical.<BR><BR>Your "main point" is so full of assumption and inaccuracies, but I will just leave you with the above example.  <BR></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><BR>-Fekkin, Test Server<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>SWG installed "blue frogs" to build our characters and the test 2 server population skyrocketed, so much so that they had to limit the numbers of testers logged on at a time.

[Daffid011]

Sure they did, but they did NOT clone to the server that has a functional society that emulates live servers.  So there is a difference in concepts. Second, even with TWO test servers the devs at SWG still release what I think can easily be classed the most bug ridden patches in comparison.  Bringing up star wars galaxies as an example of how to test things is about the worst idea you can submit. <div></div>

[[sp00k]]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR>Sure they did, but they did NOT clone to the server that has a functional society that emulates live servers.  So there is a difference in concepts.<BR><BR>Second, even with TWO test servers the devs at SWG still release what I think can easily be classed the most bug ridden patches in comparison. <BR><BR>Bringing up star wars galaxies as an example of how to test things is about the worst idea you can submit.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are correct about SWG...  I was not bringing up SWG to compare the two games.  SWG is by far a very bad game.  But the point I was bring up was the way the tried to implement a test enviroment.  And No EQ 2 test server does not have a same society that all the other EQ 2 servers have and never will.  The market will always be different and the amount of people on that server will always be less.  Except for when big live updates, and patchs come out. </DIV>

[Daffid011]

I'll try to be clear here as I think your confusing my reply to Tagga. SWG is a template based game.  The "blue frog" server is popular because people can try out new templates without doing the work on their live server.  The population may be huge, but the process of testing and catching bugs for SWG is just as horrible as it ever was.  EQII test is a functional replica of the live servers.  We may not have all the items for sale, the large population or the sheer amounts of money, but our goals for fighting, questing and crafting are the same as yours.  We play the game the same way live servers do and are likely to encounter bugs that normal servers would encounter.   All that aside, my point to you was this.  EQ2 and DAOC are very similar style games and both ran identical style test servers until DAOC allowed people to copy their characters to the test server enmasse.  Despite everything you think and claim will improve, the exact opposite happened.  Population went down, dedicated testers left, more bugs slipped through and patches took longer to go live.  The player base of EQ2 and DAOC are primarily the same people and the end result is likely to be the same thing. Maybe you have some insight as to how this will not happen or some improvements on the idea, but if your only point is you think cloning = more people = better testing then history shows you to be incorrect at best. Cheers, PeckPeck <div></div>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR><BR>All that aside, my point to you was this.  EQ2 and DAOC are very similar style games and both ran identical style test servers until DAOC allowed people to copy their characters to the test server <STRONG>enmasse</STRONG>.  Despite everything you think and claim will improve, the exact opposite happened.  Population went down, dedicated testers left, more bugs slipped through and patches took longer to go live.  The player base of EQ2 and DAOC are primarily the same people and the end result is likely to be the same thing.<BR><BR>Maybe you have some insight as to how this will not happen or some improvements on the idea, but if your only point is you think cloning = more people = better testing then history shows you to be incorrect at best.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>PeckPeck <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think the question here for most people who play on Test now is one of dedication. You feel that you dedicate all your playtime to Test, and that other people can't possess this dedication because we're on live servers and unwilling to recreate our effort on Test. I submit that a way to weed out the people who just want to see the next patch over the people who are willing to actually test content would be to implement an application process like you see for the Guides. Someone who wants a character copy as opposed to starting fresh on Test would have to apply for it, and be willing to put in a certain amount of time, just like the Guides are. If you don't fulfill your commitment, your Test toon is erased and you can't reapply for a good long time, if ever. </P> <P>I haven't checked out the Guide program in Two, but in One people retained their normal characters. They weren't guides on their own server. They got a new character just to be the guide. SOE expected a certain time commitment from them and they were ditched if they didn't meet it. While originally they got their accounts paid for, SOE later took that bonus out because of labor laws. So Guides to me are essentially what Test players are, unpaid people willing to work for SOE for free for the betterment of the game as a whole. No one would question the commitment of a Guide, just as no one would question the commitment of the people who play on Test. But no one expects Guides to give up their other characters to be a guide. There is an app process just to be as sure as possible that someone will really follow through. </P> <P>Anyone willing to go to the trouble of filling out an application and going through a review process would, in my mind, be a good candidate for Test. I don't think most people asking for copies would even mind if they had requirements to meet that no Test player does, like time logged or were given tasks to perform at request, or a feedback a week, whatever. I'm not saying I'm better or worse than any Test player, just I started with family and friends on a live server and I'm not leaving them for any reason. I do play alts, but not a one is over level 13. On the other hand, I often go solo doing totally non xp things so my friends and family can keep up with me. This is time I could just as well be playing on Test, I just freely admit I don't have the patience to play another character up this high at the moment. I can understand the urge to prevent the "en masse" aspect which I highlighted in the post above. I don't see why they couldn't create a way of sorting the people who would contribute from the ones who won't.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 40 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P>

[Nibbl]

<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>Paying $15 a month to test SOE's software, what unethical business practice is that. lol suckers :smileytongue: </P><FONT size=2> <P>Anyway, played about two weeks on test, very low population, economy sucks, boring. Not sure why they call it test, never saw any in game tests from SOE with any type of customized feedback forum. Guess they just want opinionated feedback on the new patches, no controlled testing.</P><FONT size=2> <P>Someone explain the so-called exploit advantage of having toons "copied" from live to test? Im must be missing the point on that issue.</P> <P> </P></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>

[imakee]

I am sorry you had a bad experience on test server Nibb.  I have played on Test server for about  5 months now. It is my home. As for in game tests run by SOE. I have participated in many playtests run by the devs.  In fact we got a group together today and ran 3 playtests on 3 diffrent zones back to back.  Last weekend my husband participated in a playtest of a raid zone.  There are in game tests from SOE being done on the test server.  All I can say  perhaps two weeks wasn't long enough to become a part of the community? As for how copies would be exploited.  Someone could have a copy made, test some new content and not report a bug they found that benefited them greatly. The bug would go live and the copy would go to his live server and use the bug he discovered to his advantage.  Now of course you could argue it wouldn't possibly happen because of this or that, but  this is just a brief example.  I have seen many bugs that could be exploited if not reported and fixed before going live. <div></div>

[observer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> imakee wrote:<BR><BR>As for how copies would be exploited. <FONT color=#ff0000> <STRONG>Someone could have a copy made, test some new content and not report a bug they found that benefited them greatly. The bug would go live and the copy would go to his live server and use the bug he discovered to his advantage.</STRONG></FONT>  Now of course you could argue it wouldn't possibly happen because of this or that, but  this is just a brief example.  I have seen many bugs that could be exploited if not reported and fixed before going live.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You just described the guilds such as FoH that are copied over to help test raid content.  They have an advantage over everyone else even if it's not a bug, so what's the difference? 

[Cuz]

<DIV>They didn't find a bug that they exploited on live. The more people that you copy over, the bigger the risk that someone will find an exploit and wait for it to hit live. Having an advatage is one thing, but flat out without holding information on an exploit, is cheating.</DIV>

[Cheshyrcatgri]

guess i'm kinda confused here...if Test, as is, is such a waste of time and as some have said, the game as a whole is so broken, the why is everyone so persnickety about whether or not to play on Test? if you don't think Test play is for you, as it is, don't do it. Quite frankly, i don't see why some of the posters here even play the game at all, since their opinions of EQ2 and Sony are so low. Seems to me that a good amount of you aren't paying 15 bucks to play a game, you're paying that money to whine and cry...expecting 1 stars here, but it begs to be said: Shoosh up and play, make the world a better place, no matter which server you choose. <div></div>

[Gorkk00]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div>They didn't find a bug that they exploited on live. The more people that you copy over, the bigger the risk that someone will find an exploit and wait for it to hit live. Having an advatage is one thing, but flat out without holding information on an exploit, is cheating.</div><hr></blockquote>Here's how I see it: the more people are on test, the more chance you have several people who will find this exploit, and then the more chance one will report it and it'll be fix before getting live. Keeping with a low population of testers, you'll have: 1. less chance that these exploits are found before getting live. They'll still be found on live (if they can be found by increasing a little population on test, they'll definitely be found when getting live). Then they'll be exploited for a much longer time. 2. less chance that these exploits, once found on test, are reported and fixed before getting live. I see nobody here commented my suggestion: allowing character copy on a dedicated test server (not the current one, as it'll be bad for those who actually have a toon they leveled there), with a restriction on how many characters of each level range can be copied (to ensure having people able to test each level range, and ensure the server not being overcrowded and crash). These copied chararcters would be reseted at the end of each testing period. If copied characters are not played enough on test server, and if there is not enough feedback from the player, then he won't be able to copy again. This way it would enable a much <b>more efficient testing of what the patches actually change in game</b>. How? I already explained it: if you spot on test something that looks different, then you'll examine the effects, and will log your live toon (the test toon being an exact copy of it), and test this thing again. Comparing the behavior of the VERY SAME character at the VERY SAME level and with the VERY SAME equipment and spell upgrade allows to determine the EXACT effect of the changes, and not something which would be a combination of the changes and a different class, a different level, a different gear, or a different set of spell upgrades. Character copy to test can't be allowed to the <b>current </b>test server, but current test server is imho an aberration and really not viable for testing.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorkk00 on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 PM</span>

[Daffid011]

More efficient? What is the incentive to take hours away from your home server to log on and "spot" test with a copy?  Who is going to work through a heritage quest that is just going to be deleted in a week?  Who is going to complete access quests?  Grind out a couple hundred items or a level?  Harvest and harvest until you get that rare you need?  Buy/sell/trade in the bazaar?  Raid something that isnt listed in the patch notes?  Start a new character and test the citizenship trials?  After all a copied character has the same quest points as your live character.  Who is going to copy over their level 20 characters to finish armor quest 4,5,6 when they are just going to have to duplicate the efforts when they log back on their home server?  For that matter who is going to log onto test for a few hours to help that person? A pure copy server does not have the same play goals as a permanent server.  It relies on the assumption that many unconnected strangers will sacrifice their play time away from their home servers to come test things when the outcome of those achievements will be deleted and most likely be repeated once they go back to live.  There is alot more to testing than logging in for an hour or two and checking to see if the patch notes work or not.  Most bugs I encounter come from just playing the game like anyone else would and they usually pop up in spot no where near connected to the patch notes. Your idea has some merit, but it also has some gaping holes.  If you do get enough volume of players to copy it will cover some areas the current test lacks population wise, but it also neglects so many aspects of gameplay that people just take for granted. Cheers, Fekkin - Test server <div></div>

[BostonSail]

<P>A better comparison than DAOC or SWG may be direct compare to EQ1.</P> <P>EQ1 took a long time to become stable but they really got great at handling the patch process.   Part of what they do over there is allow us to create new characters on EQ Test and use a /testbuff command to instantly promote our character to a certain class / level with suitable equipment.</P> <P>In EQ, we'd see in future patch notes for Test that they'd be putting in a fix for something we were seeing live, if it's something I was seeing in Live I'd hop over to Test to recreate it every which way I could think of and feed back on it if I was still able to reproduce the issue.   Simple enough.   </P> <P>Having an ongoing population of weekend tourists didn't seem to hurt the tightknit Test community in EQ, I think we were fairly visible from a distance in our summoned up armor and our fixation with performing 2 or 3 tasks over and over as we focused on testing our particular pet bugfix and they easily avoided us if they didn't want to mingle.</P>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BostonSailor wrote:<BR> <P>In EQ, we'd see in future patch notes for Test that they'd be putting in a fix for something we were seeing live, if it's something I was seeing in Live I'd hop over to Test to recreate it every which way I could think of and feed back on it if I was still able to reproduce the issue.   Simple enough.  </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think you've hit the key difference, but maybe not in the way you intended, heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The words there that caught my attention were "future patch notes."  Now, SOE has gotten a <U>lot</U> better about communicating with us lately -- they gave us Palladius, and for the Splitpaw testing we had board warnings and multiple devs in-game -- but there's still a long way to go.  Half the time we don't get patch notes on Test, or the ones we get are incomplete.  The last month or so (from just before E3, up to the present) have been particularly bad.  And it's hard for anyone to do anything useful without the proper warning.</DIV>

[Ceruline]

<P>I second Kella...</P> <P> </P> <P>A big problem on Test is not actually knowing what's been changed/fixed in a patch.  Often, the server will come down for a patch every single evening for a week, and there won't be a single patch note.</P> <P>Additionally, sometimes we don't actually get the final patch they push Live.  Oftentimes, live will get last minute fixes and tweaks that we never saw - and don't see for several days, when someone remembers to push that patch to us.</P> <P>Of course, when those last minute changes cause obvious problems, we end up taking heat for not catching problems with a patch that we never actually had.</P> <P>We catch a lot of balance issues and bugs with new content.  We also nail our fair share of exploits before they go live.  This is why nobody is talking about a Splitpaw zone that can give you 100% of a level with no vitality on one run through.  Likewise, nobody should be talking about a zone where every single encounter drops a chest with 2+ gold in if you zone in with a duo in a certain level range.  There's also a mender and a merchant in the Den, again, due to us expressing the sentiment that one was needed.</P> <P>I guess the question that a lot of non Test players want answered is why there are no copies to test.  The answer here is pretty easy - if there were large scale copies to Test, Test would lose it's full time community.  And a full time community is important.  Copied players tend to come over when there are "sexy" new changes to the game.  They're not around playing normally when a fix of some sort in a completely mundane patch completely breaks core combat mechanics.  </P> <P>Honestly, the ideal solution is to have two test servers.  A copy only server, which would serve as a good stress tester for interesting new content, and the existing Test server - which is closer to a mirror of a production server, with players playing their characters normally - not just logging in to check out new content, or to try to find something to exploit when the new patch goes live.</P> <P>However, allowing large scale copying to Test as it stands now would have a serious adverse effect on the quality of playtesting - not so much the new content type which Live players are interested in, but playtesting the boring stuff by simply playing normally on the server, and noticing when a change has an unanticipated effect on an unrelated part of the game.</P> <P>The solution here is a second Test server that copies can use as a sandbox - turning our existing test server into a playground which is barren but for the days following major patchers will hurt the QA process.</P>

[Ceruline]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashlian wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR><BR>All that aside, my point to you was this.  EQ2 and DAOC are very similar style games and both ran identical style test servers until DAOC allowed people to copy their characters to the test server <STRONG>enmasse</STRONG>.  Despite everything you think and claim will improve, the exact opposite happened.  Population went down, dedicated testers left, more bugs slipped through and patches took longer to go live.  The player base of EQ2 and DAOC are primarily the same people and the end result is likely to be the same thing.<BR><BR>Maybe you have some insight as to how this will not happen or some improvements on the idea, but if your only point is you think cloning = more people = better testing then history shows you to be incorrect at best.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>PeckPeck <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think the question here for most people who play on Test now is one of dedication. You feel that you dedicate all your playtime to Test, and that other people can't possess this dedication because we're on live servers and unwilling to recreate our effort on Test. I submit that a way to weed out the people who just want to see the next patch over the people who are willing to actually test content would be to implement an application process like you see for the Guides. Someone who wants a character copy as opposed to starting fresh on Test would have to apply for it, and be willing to put in a certain amount of time, just like the Guides are. If you don't fulfill your commitment, your Test toon is erased and you can't reapply for a good long time, if ever. </P> <P>I haven't checked out the Guide program in Two, but in One people retained their normal characters. They weren't guides on their own server. They got a new character just to be the guide. SOE expected a certain time commitment from them and they were ditched if they didn't meet it. While originally they got their accounts paid for, SOE later took that bonus out because of labor laws. So Guides to me are essentially what Test players are, unpaid people willing to work for SOE for free for the betterment of the game as a whole. No one would question the commitment of a Guide, just as no one would question the commitment of the people who play on Test. But no one expects Guides to give up their other characters to be a guide. There is an app process just to be as sure as possible that someone will really follow through. </P> <P>Anyone willing to go to the trouble of filling out an application and going through a review process would, in my mind, be a good candidate for Test. I don't think most people asking for copies would even mind if they had requirements to meet that no Test player does, like time logged or were given tasks to perform at request, or a feedback a week, whatever. I'm not saying I'm better or worse than any Test player, just I started with family and friends on a live server and I'm not leaving them for any reason. I do play alts, but not a one is over level 13. On the other hand, I often go solo doing totally non xp things so my friends and family can keep up with me. This is time I could just as well be playing on Test, I just freely admit I don't have the patience to play another character up this high at the moment. I can understand the urge to prevent the "en masse" aspect which I highlighted in the post above. I don't see why they couldn't create a way of sorting the people who would contribute from the ones who won't.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 40 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ashlian,</P> <P>I wouldn't have nearly so much of a problem with a stringent application based process.  However, it's likely to tie up more resources in dealing with than SOE is likely to want to commit.  Large scale copying is the issue here - there already has been small scale copying to aid in the testing of specific raid content.  And honestly, some of that copying wasn't vetted all too well - it's amazing how poorly a player who has gotten past level 40 can play.  The copies, when they are around, spend more time /dueling each other than anything else, and they've already had an adverse impact on the economy, due to their vaults and brokers being copied alongside them.</P> <P>If copies could be vetted - and vetted properly - I would have no problem with them, provided they were kept to a controlled number.  Test can always use more mature, knowledgeable players to help evaluate content.  There are simply a lot of players - and a lot of ones who post vehemently about wanting to be able to copy - who I think would hurt the environment, and drive the existing community off, in addition to being ineffective testers.</P> <P>If there was more exposure given to the things that we have caught (We being players who pay the same monthly fee as everyone and simply have chosen to play on a less stable server where a bug could potentially eat our entire character because we're masochists) I think that some of the clamor would die down.  Unfortunately, our patch notes rarely if ever mention bugs that were fixed and content that was rebalanced due to our feedback.  </P> <P>Additionally, it is much easier for QA and Development to communicate with a smaller community.  The signal/noise ratio on most public forums is very very low.  Keeping Test as a relatively smaller community allows us to communicate the problems we encounter much more efficiently.  Put 1000 players on Test at a time, and there will be major bugs missed.  </P> <P>Right now, if I were to discover an exploit (Or anything else which would probably be treated as a very high priority bug fix) I know that I can talk to the Test Server Liason, and *know* that it has been brought to SOE's attention.  If our population were 10x what it is, I doubt Palla would be nearly as accessible.  </P> <P>There are certainly good arguments for why a high population testing server would be good - but I strongly believe that this needs to be a seperate server from Test.  There are certain types of testing that our server is much better at doing than a large population test server of copies would be, and there are others that we can't reasonably manage, that a larger server would be better at.  However, the vast majority of bugs ARE reported - if the number of bug reports inflated by 10x, I don't believe it would actually change the fact that a good number of them aren't fixed.</P>

[DakiRo]

I must admit I do not understand the idea that the test server should have a community and that there should be no character copies to it. The unfortunate fact is that every live patch contains numerous bugs, some of them quite obvious. And yet those bugs are not caught and are allowed to reach the live servers. Morgard has even stated that a part of the new spell system was  turned on by mistake in the latest live update, and that such mistakes are likely to happen in the future. Now leaving aside the fact that no professional software organization with a decent QA would allow such errors, this was not caught on the test server either. The fact of software development is that the more people test changes, the more likely is that bugs and problems will be found. The test server in its current incarnation does not provide enough of a user base to throughly test changes and new features. As for leveling up a character on the test server, I do not feel that I should pay a monthly fee to SOE to test their software, or that I should start a character from scratch just to test something. On the contrary, SOE should make it as easy as possible for players to come on test, play their existing character, and report problems. <div></div>

[Na]

<span><blockquote><hr>DakiRoki wrote: And yet those bugs are not caught and are allowed to reach the live servers. Morgard has even stated that a part of the new spell system was  turned on by mistake in the latest live update, and that such mistakes are likely to happen in the future. Now leaving aside the fact that no professional software organization with a decent QA would allow such errors, this was not caught on the test server either. <hr></blockquote>Just wanted to comment on this part...  It's not that these bugs aren't caught on test (though there may be some), it's just that they are not fixed before they go live. There is a huge difference there. Plus just copying the data to the live servers can introduce bugs (as we saw yesterday with 5 servers staying down longer than the others) due the the databases on each server having unique code.</span><div></div>

[Heiro]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>DakiRoki wrote:<BR><BR>The fact of software development is that the more people test changes, the more likely is that bugs and problems will be found. The test server in its current incarnation does not provide enough of a user base to throughly test changes and new features.</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff66>Great... come on over to test, join the ranks of the server that is intended to benefit those players who dont want to test, but rather want to play the game on the production servers.  Anyone who truly wants not only to help with the testing of a product that they enjoy playing, but to enhance the experiences of those who dont want to be bothered with doing any of the testing themselves.</FONT></STRONG><BR><BR>As for leveling up a character on the test server, I do not feel that I should pay a monthly fee to SOE to test their software, or that I should start a character from scratch just to test something. On the contrary, SOE should make it as easy as possible for players to come on test, play their existing character, and report problems.</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Oh... nm then..</FONT></STRONG></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>The test server doesnt exist simply to test "high end raid content".  It exists to test content at all levels and at all stages.  Also, its not just the content that is being tested, but rather the impact that the content can have on both the community, and the economy.   Numerous copies of characters to test, results in numerous high lvl characters, testing high level content only.  I seriously doubt anyone will want to copy a lvl 12 char to test the content at that lvl , especially when it takes all of 5 hrs to hit lvl 12 from scratch.  Lots of high level content testers, will result in not only people "testing" strategies, but also negatively impact the economy, as seen recently with  the hue and outcry of overpriced merchandise on various brokers (personally, no impact to me, but to some it caused quite an uproar).  Mixing the higher level players who permanently reside on test and have formed bonds and complimentary playstyles with a flood of other copied high levels who have their own playstyles ( most which I have seen seem to consist of attempting to exploit known issues) will not help test the content, it will only cause a greater diversity between the testers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems to me that the majority of permanent testers who post here, state they dont want the character copies to be commonplace, but have no issues with a select group specifically copied over to test specific aspects of specific content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems to me that the majority of Production Server players want the copies without the dedication required to the test community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test server is just that .. a Server.. with a functioning community, a functioning economy, and more importantly a functioning underlying commitment to help each other and the game without petty ego trips, server firsts, contested content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just my 2 cents here...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heiro</DIV>

[Gorkk00]

<span><blockquote><hr>Daffid011 wrote:More efficient? What is the incentive to take hours away from your home server to log on and "spot" test with a copy?  Who is going to work through a heritage quest that is just going to be deleted in a week?  Who is going to complete access quests?  Grind out a couple hundred items or a level?  Harvest and harvest until you get that rare you need?  Buy/sell/trade in the bazaar?  Raid something that isnt listed in the patch notes?  Start a new character and test the citizenship trials?  After all a copied character has the same quest points as your live character.  Who is going to copy over their level 20 characters to finish armor quest 4,5,6 when they are just going to have to duplicate the efforts when they log back on their home server?  For that matter who is going to log onto test for a few hours to help that person? A pure copy server does not have the same play goals as a permanent server.  It relies on the assumption that many unconnected strangers will sacrifice their play time away from their home servers to come test things when the outcome of those achievements will be deleted and most likely be repeated once they go back to live.  There is alot more to testing than logging in for an hour or two and checking to see if the patch notes work or not.  Most bugs I encounter come from just playing the game like anyone else would and they usually pop up in spot no where near connected to the patch notes. Your idea has some merit, but it also has some gaping holes.  If you do get enough volume of players to copy it will cover some areas the current test lacks population wise, but it also neglects so many aspects of gameplay that people just take for granted. Cheers, Fekkin - Test server <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, you're prolly right about the testing of some content which wouldn't be really done with only character copies. All note (specialy those who keeps talking about economy unbalance with copies and massive copies of high level characters only) that i said copies should NOT be made on the current test server. As said Daffid, having two test servers would prolly be the best, and i must admit he highlighted several reasons for the current test server to exist (now i can understand why this server is useful). Still, for a lot of changes, stress test is needed, with the ability to compare simultaneously with the previous state of the game. And for that the only possible way imho is to have a server where people can copy their char and test particular changes. And as I suggested it before, there should be limits to prevent copie of exclusively level 50 (see my previous posts for more, don't want to write it again). That kind of test is really needed for spell fixes or core mechanics changes, to remove the risk of a subjective interpretation of what is observed. Let's say there is a change with resists. If you test the changes with a char on test only: well, you may think it was in a certain state prior patch, whereas it was not (memory is most of the time not exact); having another char on a server prior patch would help to notice the actual changes of the patch. If you test the cahnge with a char on test, having a different char on live, with different class, level, gear, etc. It's possible you have the impression that resists are now much higher, whereas it's in fact a really small change but you have lesser gear, and your spells are not upgraded the same way. The best way to test that kind of changes imho is to be able to test the same content with the exact same char prior and after patch, and go back and forth from one to the other, and running this test on different types of encouters and with different group settings. Current copies of high end char to test raiding is wrongly done from what i've read, as these chars are copied with their bank and broker, unbalancing local economy. This could be done in a better way with a server dedicated to testing with character copies, and would leave the current test server for long term testing (or whatever you will call it, but in essence what Daffid stated). As a summary: there should be 2 test servers, the current one with a dedicated community (and NO copied chars) for every day testing, and another one with only copied chars (with limits for each level range, and controls of actual testing, etc. see above) for stress testing on specific changes (specific changes would need a particular attention when tested, going back on forth from prior changes to post changes states).</span><div></div>