Why are petitions not allowed?

[kunob]

<DIV>Is SOE afraid what their customers really have to say? It just tells me they they could give a flip about the gaming community when they just change things on a whim. Ill I can picture is a whiny lil brat with their ears plugged saying I cant hear you, I cant hear you. This is the image I have of SOE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They ask us from time to time to take surveys etc so they can obtain data from their user base. Why not ask a real survey like, How do you like the state of the game, What do you think about us nerfing this item etc etc. Apparently majority does not rule or have any input in the decision process.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take for instance this "Station Exchange" , now they setup a server for Plat farmers much to the dismay of most of the community. I think they just felt like they were missing out on the action.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what is the next big change? Who knows , we are in THEIR world now. Too bad they dont think about the money we contribute to make THEIR world.</DIV>

[kunob]

Awsome, got a 1 star from an SOE fanboy!

[MiscreantPy]

<DIV>and why is it that I can only have one petition? I used to be able to have 2 or 3 active petitions but now I can no longer get the button to highlight if I have a petition active.</DIV>

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>I think this is a mute subject matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know why now it is just accepting it.:smileysad:</DIV>

[Evadne]

Because Petitions on message boards are rude, unproductive and agreesive tools used by people who have already gotten an answer to their issue and refuse to give in gracefully.  No one uses a petition for good purposes. They use them to stir the pot, to feed a frenzy.  No resolution would come out of one.  Petitions are Bandwagons.  And Bandwagons fill up with mobs, not reasonable people.  Mobs don't represent the majority and thankfully most companies, including SOE realize this. ~Eva <div></div>

[Na]

<span><blockquote><hr>Evadne wrote:Because Petitions on message boards are rude, unproductive and agreesive tools used by people who have already gotten an answer to their issue and refuse to give in gracefully.  No one uses a petition for good purposes. They use them to stir the pot, to feed a frenzy.  No resolution would come out of one.  Petitions are Bandwagons.  And Bandwagons fill up with mobs, not reasonable people.  Mobs don't represent the majority and thankfully most companies, including SOE realize this. ~Eva <div></div><hr></blockquote>Another reason is accuracy.  There really is no way of limiting the number of times that a person could sign the petition if they hold multiple accounts. If you have Bunnieluv04 and IHateRingDings sign the petition and they are really the same person who happens to have 2 accounts you've already skewed the results because you're allowing one person with one opinion two different opportunities to get the changes they want made.</span><div></div>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazz04355 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evadne wrote:<BR>Because Petitions on message boards are rude, unproductive and agreesive tools used by people who have already gotten an answer to their issue and refuse to give in gracefully.  No one uses a petition for good purposes. They use them to stir the pot, to feed a frenzy.  No resolution would come out of one.  <BR><BR>Petitions are Bandwagons.  And Bandwagons fill up with mobs, not reasonable people.  Mobs don't represent the majority and thankfully most companies, including SOE realize this.<BR><BR><BR>~Eva<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Another reason is accuracy.  There really is no way of limiting the number of times that a person could sign the petition if they hold multiple accounts. If you have Bunnieluv04 and IHateRingDings sign the petition and they are really the same person who happens to have 2 accounts you've already skewed the results because you're allowing one person with one opinion two different opportunities to get the changes they want made.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Though if they have two different accounts, I see no reason they shouldn't have two signatures on the petition. It's the equivalent of having two separate people as far as money goes. I understand the message board problem, of course the number of people who post here are limited. </P> <P>On the other hand, I wouldn't mind some method of creating an ingame petition, just like you can in the real word, that you could collect virtual signatures for. Surveys are generated by SOE, so by their very nature they're limited to topics SOE wants to discuss. It could be limited to a newspaper kiosk kind of thing, so it would be available to the population without annoying anyone....they added ingame bulletin boards to EQ One, I don't see why they couldn't do it in Two. You would be limited to one virtual signature per account (I still think multiple accounts should allow multiple votes, you would allow multiple votes for four people in a family playing, if it's one person playing four characters at once, they still pay the same amount as the family). I would think it wouldn't be that hard to set it up using the current mail interface.</P> <P>This would allow greater participation in the design process by a wider variety of people (not just we, the message board minority). I can post at work, but when I couldn't, I didn't post nearly as much as I do now. I know I'm not alone, there are a lot of people who won't post because they'd rather be playing during that time. </P> <P>Just an idea!</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 40 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore<BR></P>

[Na]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ashlian wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Nazz04355 wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Evadne wrote:Because Petitions on message boards are rude, unproductive and agreesive tools used by people who have already gotten an answer to their issue and refuse to give in gracefully.  No one uses a petition for good purposes. They use them to stir the pot, to feed a frenzy.  No resolution would come out of one.  Petitions are Bandwagons.  And Bandwagons fill up with mobs, not reasonable people.  Mobs don't represent the majority and thankfully most companies, including SOE realize this.~Eva <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Another reason is accuracy.  There really is no way of limiting the number of times that a person could sign the petition if they hold multiple accounts. If you have Bunnieluv04 and IHateRingDings sign the petition and they are really the same person who happens to have 2 accounts you've already skewed the results because you're allowing one person with one opinion two different opportunities to get the changes they want made.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Though if they have two different accounts, I see no reason they shouldn't have two signatures on the petition. It's the equivalent of having two separate people as far as money goes. <font color="#ff0000">As far as money goes, yes. As far as a fair representation of how many people are agreeing with the petition, no.  The way I see it, it's like owning 2 homes in the same town. If the town tries to raise property tax, just because I pay the taxes on the houses seperately, that doesn't mean that I get to sign a petition against it twice. </font> </p> <p>On the other hand, I wouldn't mind some method of creating an ingame petition, just like you can in the real word, that you could collect virtual signatures for. Surveys are generated by SOE, so by their very nature they're limited to topics SOE wants to discuss. <font color="#ff0000">This is a good idea, however I'm not sure it would work in practice.  First of all, do you limit the amount of petitions that can exist at one time? If not, and you only allow one, how long does that petition get to remain active? What if the topic is just plain silly (Say along the lines of "Do you think all Wood Elf male models should have their hair dyed permanently pink?)"  If you allow multiple petitions, what's the number cap? If there are 300 activie petitions at once, people will be more likely to ignore them all than try to sort through to  the ones that have merit. </font></p> <p> It could be limited to a newspaper kiosk kind of thing, so it would be available to the population without annoying anyone....they added ingame bulletin boards to EQ One, I don't see why they couldn't do it in Two. <font color="#ff0000">I agree. I loved the old bulletin board system in EQ Live and was pretty disappointed that they closed it down.</font> </p> <p> You would be limited to one virtual signature per account (I still think multiple accounts should allow multiple votes, you would allow multiple votes for four people in a family playing, if it's one person playing four characters at once, they still pay the same amount as the family). <font color="#ff0000">This would only encourage people to create the maximum number of characters that they can per their account just so they can have more say.  However, the main difference would be that in the household of 4 using the same account (which is against the EULA btw..) there may be 4 different opinions on the matter whereas the one guy playing all 6 chars is of one opinion, clearly having the advantage if you allow multiple votes.</font> </p> <p>This would allow greater participation in the design process by a wider variety of people (not just we, the message board minority). I can post at work, but when I couldn't, I didn't post nearly as much as I do now. I know I'm not alone, there are a lot of people who won't post because they'd rather be playing during that time. <font color="#ff0000">I agree. If you're going to allow this type of petition, it needs to be done in game where you'll get the largest number of responses and not here on the message boards. </font> </p> <p>Just an idea! <font color="#ff0000">And one that might work, but a lot of thought would need to go into the mechanics before being implimented.  Hey...maybe they can have a petition about it in game.  <span>:smileywink:</span></font> </p> <p>Ashlian Liadan, 40 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evadne wrote:<BR>Because Petitions on message boards are rude, unproductive and agreesive tools used by people who have already gotten an answer to their issue and refuse to give in gracefully.  No one uses a petition for good purposes. They use them to stir the pot, to feed a frenzy.  No resolution would come out of one.  <BR><BR>Petitions are Bandwagons.  And Bandwagons fill up with mobs, not reasonable people.  Mobs don't represent the majority and thankfully most companies, including SOE realize this.<BR><BR><BR>~Eva<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If you work customer service you wil encounter all types of customers. If a company demonstrates good customer service and is quick to respond and quick to resolve issues correctly people will not abuse.</P> <P>There are many young players that do act inappropriately but that is not an excuse to have to put up with poor customer service by a product that you pay for monthly.</P> <P>A petition should be addressed and corrected in a timely manner there is no excuse.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazz04355 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You would be limited to one virtual signature per account (I still think multiple accounts should allow multiple votes, you would allow multiple votes for four people in a family playing, if it's one person playing four characters at once, they still pay the same amount as the family).<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>This would only encourage people to create the maximum number of characters that they can per their account just so they can have more say.  However, the main difference would be that in the household of 4 using the same account (which is against the EULA btw..) there may be 4 different opinions on the matter whereas the one guy playing all 6 chars is of one opinion, clearly having the advantage if you allow multiple votes.</FONT><BR>This would allow greater participation in the design process by a wider variety of people (not just we, the message board minority). I can post at work, but when I couldn't, I didn't post nearly as much as I do now. I know I'm not alone, there are a lot of people who won't post because they'd rather be playing during that time.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I agree. If you're going to allow this type of petition, it needs to be done in game where you'll get the largest number of responses and not here on the message boards.</FONT></P> <P>Just an idea!<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>And one that might work, but a lot of thought would need to go into the mechanics before being implimented.  Hey...maybe they can have a petition about it in game.  <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN></FONT><BR></P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 40 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree there would need to be a filtering system, but I think it's something that could be worked out. A simpler version of the topics selection the customer service petition uses now could allow petitions to be placed in topics. Perhaps "petition" would be better called "survey" so that silly topics such as some of the ones on the forum game board could be done.....hey, I want to vote on that wood elf issue! My wood elf friend would look GREAT with pink hair. </P> <P>I think this method would allow devs to take a running look at what draws the most heat from a larger perspective than the forum junkies I do think there should definitely be a time limit on them, I would say perhaps a week. And no one could field more than one survey at a time. Petitions could be sorted first by topic and then by most responses, so hot button issues popped to the top.</P> <P>I'm glad you think it's an interesting idea, I hadn't put much thought into it, but your response made me flesh it out a bit. You misread me about the accounts, though. One vote per account per survey, like they theoretically had for the login poll. Not one vote per character on your account. In reference to the family, I meant like my upstairs neighbors who have three accounts, one for husband, one for wife, one for kid....so three total, not all three of them playing on one. I do still think the person paying for the same three accounts who boxes them all legally still deserves the same three votes....I don't disagree with your property tax statement, but no petition in EQ will have the force of law, like a petition in RL can have. And in the economics of an MMORPG, it's necessary to cater to the majority of paying customers. People vote with their money, that's why I think their money entitles them to a vote. While that's my opinion,I do see your point, I just don't see an easy way to limit it by more than the one per account rule. </P> <P>I still think it would be a better indicator than the login poll was, with all it's problems, since it relied on a kind of cookie to see that you'd responded, so people logging in on a different computer sometimes got to vote multiple times. I'm sure with the kind of system I would like, they could flag it serverside when you voted, since characters are tagged to a particular account. </P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 40 Fury, 32 </SPAN><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Faarwolf]

<P>1.  Forum posters represent a very small minority of players, and are not an accurate depiction of general player opinion.</P> <P>2.  If we answered to petitions, everyone would petition everything and it would flood the forums.</P> <P>3.  We feel allowing petitions on the forum gives posters the wrong idea - that a forum protest will lead to major in-game changes.  Due to point #1, this isn't at all feasible.</P> <P>Hope that clarifies.</P>

[-AtPlay-]

<span><blockquote><hr>kunobio wrote: <div> Take for instance this "Station Exchange" , now they setup a server for Plat farmers much to the dismay of most of the community. I think they just felt like they were missing out on the action.</div> <div> </div> <div>So what is the next big change? Who knows , we are in THEIR world now. Too bad they dont think about the money we contribute to make THEIR world.</div><hr></blockquote></span><span><blockquote><hr>Gallenite wrote: <p><font size="2">Over the past week, we've had an in-game poll up on the US and EU-English servers aimed at gathering an updated view of what everyone thinks of the idea of Station Exchange and whether they'd be interested in participating in it.</font></p> <p><font size="2">For anyone needing to get caught up, background on this topic is available at: </font><a href="http://www.stationexchange.com/" target="_blank"><u><font color="#0000ff" size="2">http://www.stationexchange.com</font></u></a></p> <p><font size="2">Here are the results of the polls:</font></p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p><strong>What do you think of Station Exchange?</strong></p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p><font size="2">For It:          33.71%Neutral:       32.61%Against It:    33.68%</font></p></blockquote><b></b></blockquote><hr></blockquote></span> <span>Well slap me silly and call me a fanboi...but it sure doesnt look like most of the community is against this.  Infact, it looks darn near like there are more people who like it than dislike it (sure, we are only talking .03%...but still.) As far as the next big change, I only hope that whatever it is it can please 33% of the playerbase like this one. </span><div></div>

[SavinDwa]

<P>I really don't think a forum is a good place to allow petitions.</P> <P>Firstly, I would be surprised if more than 10% of the players visit the boards more than once a week.  Of those I owuld be surprised if more than 10% of those rea multiple boards at least once a day.  So the most forums are being read by less than 1% of the players.  The test forum might creep up to 2%.  Now if this 1% was a random sample it might be useful.  But a significant percentage of the posters only come to the board when they have a gripe, for all we know 98% of the people might be happy with things the way they are.</P> <P>To make matters worse, over 50% of the posters have agendas are are not making objective comments.  For instance, there are players that follow the approach of "my class needs to be better and I will say nice thing in support of any posts concerning improving my class. I will violent;y ridicule anyone that disagrees and I will disagree with anyone that wants their class improved if its different from mine".  Then there is the "forum problem" -- its well known that a forum environment seems to get a much larger percentage of "black and white thinkers" than would normally be in a group discussion.  A black and white thinker does not see shades of gray.  You either 100% agree with them or you are the enemy and you must be 100% in disagrement with them.  They are easy to spot.  Try writing a reply to one where you agree with 3 things and disagree with 2 of them, but put the disgreement first.  Black and white thinkers fon't read well, they imagine things between the lines.  They may actually see all 5 ofyour comments as disagrements.  and you are left scratching your head thinking "did they read what i wrote?" -- the answer is no.  Its inconcievable to them that you could agree on some things and not others.  You get in with politics all the time.  Some people think that everything Bush does is evil and others think he can do no wrong.  You can't have intelligent discussions with these people,</P> <P>So ... given all of this, it would be amazingly stupid of SOE to pay much attention to general concensus of the people who posts in the forums, if they did they would really annoy the 9-% that never post.</P>

[roarfrost]

<DIV>Why no petitions? Because the forums are only for providing unpaid beta tester feedback to the Devs, so they can push out the next day's hotfix to fix today's borked patch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other than that, we are just a "small minority of players" so what we think is apparently worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, petitions publicly show what a majority of posters think. That makes it much more difficult to doctor the results of polls like for Station Exchange.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nacoa]

<span><blockquote><hr>roarfrost wrote:<div></div> <div>Why no petitions? Because the forums are only for providing unpaid beta tester feedback to the Devs, so they can push out the next day's hotfix to fix today's borked patch.</div> <div> </div> <div>Other than that, we are just a "small minority of players" so what we think is apparently worthless.</div> <div> </div> <div>Also, petitions publicly show what a majority of posters think. That makes it much more difficult to doctor the results of polls like for Station Exchange.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> /ooc WTS tinfoil hat.  PST with bid.</span><div></div>

[Vindicis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> roarfrost wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why no petitions? Because the forums are only for providing unpaid beta tester feedback to the Devs, so they can push out the next day's hotfix to fix today's borked patch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other than that, we are just a "small minority of players" so what we think is apparently worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, petitions publicly show what a majority of posters think. That makes it much more difficult to doctor the results of polls like for Station Exchange.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ah right, it's summer time....kids are out of school.  What's the matter, mom and dad lock out the premium channels on the TV?</DIV>

[Faarwolf]

<DIV>Alright that's enough of that.  We don't doctor polls, ever.  I already gave a straight answer on this subject...if you are gonna get all /tinfoilhat about it then the thread goes bye bye.</DIV>