Please read! My Compiled Views and Ideas for a Better and More Prosperous EQ2! [Archive]

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Eyes_of_Truth

06-22-2005, 04:34 AM

<DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV> My Compiled Views and Ideas for a Better and More Prosperous Everquest 2 Main point of my post here: to have a strong building you must first have a strong foundation and build upon that foundation. This post is primarily about balance (and yes it's possible) and new contient ideas for a more balanced and interactive raid without doing a Cookie cutter type class system, as well as a solution to the aquiring of spell/CA upgrades though "Training Exercise Quests" Just because a mage goes enchanter does not mean they give up their role as a damage class! Far from it, they should mealy not improve in damage as well as a sorcerer is on account they have more flexibility to perform more roles than a sorcerer, hence "utility", and it needs to be a noticable utility that has a good purpose in normal grouping and raiding. Also, damage comes in many forms, and if they added a power drain to every enchanter’s nuke, made them cost same as a sorcerer’s nuke, with 80% of the damage a sorcerer would do, then they are in effect still a damage dealing mage, only dealing damage in a different way. If an enchanter is nuking a Healing mob, that 20% less damage they do compaired to a soceror might actually return a higher benefit if it drains vital healing power from the mob, such as if the nuke drains 50 power from target, and that target could heals 400 hp from that 50 power, then in a since the enchanter has done 400 more damage from using the power drain attached to their nuke. As for summoner, using their DPS pets it needs to have spells = to 60% of the damage capacity of the sorcerer, and a nuke+DOT spell that in 30 seconds can make up the remaining 20% of the sorcerer’s damage ability (make this dot also greatly lower resist of target, allowing sorcerer to deal more damage, meaning that they will work best when together). And of course the fishies to eal the other 20% As for the problem with mage vs. Scout, a new equation needs to be written! Mage=Scout>Fighter>Priest The only reason Scouts get slightly (and lets be honest, it is very slight) more defense than a mage is that to perform their = damage they are forced into melee range of mobs. [As a side note I think it would be fun to add Touch spells that require caster to be with in melee ranged but an added benefit of doing more damage for less power using this line of spells, and these spells generate 3x the normal hate of a nuke so players would have to be carefull, but more on that later] To sum it up in simple phrase, balancing needs to be done within the archetypes! Not cross archetypes! No overlapping! And to toughs nay sayers that say "[Removed for Content] an Enchanter can’t be outdamageing my UBAH ZEKER! This is completely BS!" then you should make and enchanter and not complains so much!! Just kidding, but yes, enchanters SHOULD be outdamageing a berserker as a mage > fighter. There needs to be a simple mentality when thinking about the classes, it's all VERY symmetrical: 1/2 are meant for offense and 1/2 are meant for defense. Mage=Scout in damage because they are the damaging 1/2 of the spectrum, while fighters and priest make up the defensive 1/2. It's that simple when u get down to it. __________________________________________________ _________________________________________ Raiding Now for the topic that always seems so difficult, RAIDING "But Mr., I’m a fighter, but I'm not the main tank, so I need uber DPS or I’m worthless! Don’t take my role from me!" Nope, sorry dude, fighters aren’t ment for the offense capabilities of mage/scout, or else every thing fall out of wack. Would you feel good if a priest took your role as MT for a raid? It's the exact same concept. So now comes the big question: What do u do with these 5 other fighters who are "doing nothing now" in a raid?? Easy..........so very easy that it should have been decided long ago.....so easy that it's partially done in game now.... allow them to form a fighting unit that disperses damage smongst themselves, suggested named : Battalion, or a Phalanx if you perfer (Paladins allready have this concept partialy built in as they are currently considered best "assist" tank with offer and Acient pledge and upgrades) Ok here is my imaginary raid set up: 6 fighters, priest, mage, scouts (hey what do u know, that’s all of the classes..24 classes...max of 24 people in raid...makes u go hmmm doesn’t it?) Allow the group of 6 fighters to disperse the damage amongst them. This makes the job of healing easier, as lighter armored brawlers won’t take a full forced blow of spike damage (and not all mobs NEED spike damage to poses a thret, will talk about that later) if they don’t avoid it, let’s say this: Random_uber_epic_mob_3125 does a attack that deals 2000 damage. As part of the "penalty" for banding together and dispersing damage, the total damage incoming is +25% more, so that’s 2500 damage being divided among 6 players, which is 416 each, then that registers against mitigation and avoidance chance. If say a Brawler avoids it, that’s 2500-416 so the hit's total is only 2100 or so, if a warrior has 60% mitigation, he only takes 166 damage, cutting off even more of the total, and all together it would be more effective than a single tank tanking. "But what of valuably needed priest buffs that the tanks needs? He cant get them if 5 other Fighters are in the same group can he?" Also simple, add a right clickable option on ANY group wide buff that allows it to be spread across the entire raid, but at the cost of 5 concentration. This allows priest/mages/bards and any other buffing classes to buff raid wide, but it will only be one buff per player, so choose wisely :smileywink: . Another solution for fighter diversity in raids and groups would be to make certain raid mobs more easily tankable by different tanks. Accurate heavy spike damage scout raid mobs would be best handled by warrior Heavy spike damage casters would be best handle by crusaders (providing they give them a self ward that absorbs a lot of spell damage) Inaccurate flurry attacks that negate targets mitigation from fighter mobs (hit up to 5 times increasing power by 50% each hit, devastating to anyone who cant dodge them) best tankable by Brawlers In fact, I have posted on a different post about how a epic fight could contain the boss using ALL 4 archetypes in his fight depending on how he's doing. If he is feeling confident since he's at full HP, the raid mob would focus on powerful and accurate physical strikes (scout). Being a scout, his current weakness is magical attacks. At 75% hp he relies physical just ins't cutting it, so he switches to devastating magical damage (mage) which would require a crusaders knowledge of spell withstanding to survive. Being a mage at this point, Scouts with high physical damage are his weakness. At 50% hp the mob notices he's in trouble and would begin healing himself (this is when an enchanter's power drain would be needed, and I think power drains SHOULD be a viable raid tactic) Mob would somehow become invulnerable and cause raid wide damage while healing it'self. Once the invulnerability has been broken, Scout has the damage advantage. At this stage the devs need to throw in something fun and new, like say a stationary weapon that must be reached quickly to shoot the raid mob who has now flow up into the sky to heal himself and cause raid wide smiting holy damage, to get to this weapon, someone would have to clime a wall covered with tiny spiders that try to knock u off, make it so that the climber needs protection by ranged assiastance to pick off the spiders so the climber can get to the weapon before the mob heals up to 74% (no going back to different modes for mob) Perhaps make scouts faster climbers, allowing them to get to the weapon the fastest and prevent the mob from regenerating to much hp. The mob would loose 10% hp from the weapon, and would resume fighting on group for 2 minutes after being shot down before he flies up and needs to be shot down again. The weapon can’t drop the mob below 25%. At 25% the mob is despite and frantic to survive! So he becomes a fighter, focusing primarily on defense, and his once accurate single attacks are now frantic flurries that negate armor (aka u need a brawler at this point to calmly avoid the raged blows) Also, at this point the mob would do devastating personal AOE attacks that would crush scouts, so they must fall back and rely on ranged damage. Mages have the uperhand once again with magical attacks since the mob is focusing on his physical defense. offense switchs from one opposit to the other, giving mages/scouts each = opportunities to succeed.> ---JOKE TIME--- (hey, if you've made it this far you need a treat!) :smileyvery-happy: This flip flop of attacks is kind of like spraying a naked person with ice cold water...go for face.... they block their face....then hit'em low hahah..rense, repate :smileyvery-happy: This multi stage of fighting makes it feel more dynamic and realistic (though I know this wouldn’t work with all mobs, such as mobs that are considered casters only, but on dragons and the like this would be very realistic, as we all know fighting styles can changes as battles progress and desperation takes hold) I want more interactive raid like this that require strategy beyond simple button mashing, knowing when and what to do at crucial moments is important Took look further at some problems some might find with my design: Q: "Nice and all, but how would you switch agro between tanks without loosening one or having the raid wipe?" A: Have each 25% stage render mob invulnerable, and wipe all previous agro, then the first one to re-engage the mob will be first on agro list (this would require cooperation form raid to hold their buttons!!) Q: Well if we can power drain raid mobs, by the time they are 50% they wont have power to heal themselves, wont that make it trivial? A: At each 25% mark, the mob regains all power, and there power shouldn’t be endless like Nagy and Vox of eq1, if we have limits (like the recent changes to certain items that need not be mentioned) to ensure power is not a endless resource, so should mobs be subjugated to this rule. To sum it all up: A) Make mobs have same benefits/restrictions of players B) Diversify mobs and tanking types C) Balance within the Archetype (and DPS isn’t the end-all of balancing either, giving one sub-class offensive buffs and other defensive or enemy detrimental buffs that lower incoming damage is better than giving one more raw defense or offense) D) Allow tanks to combine their defensive purpose and disperse high damage attacks E) Make staged raid fights that require different tactics at different times F) Make raids more interactive than your normal "button masher" G) Allow quests with adequate reuse timers that grant app3/adept1/adept4/master2 quality of skill upgrades, high quality tougher fight (adep4 require x2 raid and master 2 a HARD x4 raid, that require a ton of thinking and puzzle solving to complete) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE reply to my ideas..They get skimmed over so many times it seems and it makes me feel like all this work goes down the drain and it's soo depressing.... spent a total of atleast 4 hours compiling this post together, please don't let my hard work be in vain! :smileysad: PS: I evan tokk teh time too speel kheck theis! :smileyindifferent: (I even took the time to spellcheck this! :smileywink: ) Here is my second part of my ginormus post: im just going to cut and past it strait from my other replies : ( BE WARNED! i have yet to spell check this section /dramatic music flares!! :smileyvery-happy: ) **Alternitive to Purchasiing Upgrades** If you dont want to fork over the doe to raise your characters abilities though knowledge gained from scrolls and such provided by characters, go though our riggorious new training program! (sounds lieka promotional hu? :smileywink: ) Well now to get down to details folks, 2 words: Training Quests (no, not the silly books that are in game currently, something new, interactive, and an alternative to handing over $) Training Quests' purpose is to allow players that are skilled at their class's role to put their skills to test in hopes of improving their skills! They range from solo (app3 reward), difficult group fights (adp1), 2 group raid (adept 4) full blown 4x group raids (master2) "BUT WAIT!" says Random_onlooker_02946," you mean a normal person like me for no charge can get a master 2 ability?! WOW!" Devs reply " well you CAN get it, but we arnt handing it to you, you and your raid of 24 must undergo extreeem challanges that will not only test your combat prowess, but your raid's cooperation, orgionization, and ability to solve difficult puzzles on the fly!" Random_onlooker_02946 sobs gently " But i dont wana solve puzzles! gah! me want make big thing dead!!" Dev says "Well, it is optional, you can allways be lazy and use our wonderful SE!" Random_onlooker_02946 " But..but.. im a insert random Scholar> ! We need people to need us! They cant get FREE skills!" Dev gets a puzzled look and thinks to himself (wasnt this same guy that wanted abilties?? oh well, tis the life ) "Now you see, we will palce timers on these Training Missions. They are not short little mini fights either. These super raids will be 3 hours + on average, 3 hours of complete action/puzzles solving to test your metal to see if your raid is ready for the oh so coveneted master 2 abilties. They will be avalible to all tiers (with the exception of tier 1)" The timers are as followed and subject to change: app3(solo)- Succes= 30 min lock out, Fail = 5 min lock out adept1(difficult group fight)-Success= 12 hour lock out , Fail= 30 min lock out adept4(nearly impossible for a single group, ment to be hard for a x2 group raid)-Succes=4 day lock out,Fail = 1 day lock out Master2(full blow x4 raid, hardest of all,very much involved with find out how to complete it as part of challenge)Succes=2week lockout, Fail = 3day wait ALL SCALE WITH LEVEL , no raiding greenies! :smileywink: Regardless, this solves multitutes of problems (and probly causes some of it's own that i cant foresee) but here are a list of proples it will solve or help reduce: Reduce overall price of adept3/master skills so that people of the tier of the spel can afford it. (aka no 25g for a tier 2 adept3!) How does it do this? Simple: if someone is charging out the wazzu before because that was the ONLY option for advancment of skills, they will have to drop their price down to more reasionable levels to compete with people saying "heck with paying 1p for my level 15 master! ill get my guild together and practice and train hard and achieve a master 2 insted!" A quest solution to people who just started game and want to become stronger but dont physicaly have the currency to do so! Along with these changes, i think adept3 rare items at lower tiers need to be far more common so that there will be a healthy ammount of adept3's (higher suply to fit the demand their for more reasionable pricing) since the tier 1-3 since these levels go by much faster than the others. Possible problems with possible solutions: App4's becoming "worthless"- this is something i dont see happening, not any more than it allready is. I would think of them as step stools, I would think the adept1 trainning would be of adiquit difficulty so that someone using only app1 would almsot allways fail, thus making app4 usfull tool to growing even stronger (and the jump between each NEEDS to be noticable), but in this same token, app3 need to be strong enough to achieve adept1, but needs to be a lot easier to achieve adpet1 using app4. Other than that i realy cant see any more problems if handled delicatly Here is an example of a raid for adept4- You and your 2 group raid party have been charged with assulting fortess made by distructive Elementals that is protected with an powerfull barrier. These elementals are also protected by this shield. This fortress is in a pocket deminsion and to get there your raid must use a orb. this orb will be outside the fortress and is your zone in point. With out this vital anchoring point your raid will be wisped out of the demension! So now u have a stationary postion you must defend. How ever shall they defeat this barrier?? but wait! A scout has found a secrit entrance to a lower area that leads to the 6 elemental powercores that feed the barrior and shields on the elementals. Thus the fight beggins! elementals pour from the fortress and everyone begins to fight, but oh no! nothing not even powerfull spells will harm the foes! The fighters notus their taunts still work, and healers can allways heal, so they decide to use their defense and stave off the attack till the offensive party can go down and shut down their shields. So the second party desends(zones) into the darkness of the catacombes below the fortress! After going though a small maze, their way is barred by a door that asks riddles, for each incorrect answer, the person is sent back to begginging of maze, once door's questions are all ansered correctly, the second part is wisped into the next room, where they must use their stealth to avoid foes (app3 or 4 invis/sneak required at this point, so scholars dont friet) while moving objects to navigate the mini dungion. Finaly they get to the shield's cores! To destroy them, different classes must used the opposing element of the orb to destroy it. Fire vs Ice/water,Magic vs mental, Disease and poison vs Divine, once destroyed, they are teleported back to the Anchoring point, where they can rejoin their first group (who by now is stuggling under the wieght of the elementals attack) and unleash some damage on the now vulnerable elementals. After raid fights to the fortress door, they must coordinate 6 people to attack 6 weakened studs at same time (with in a 2 second margine of error) to destroy the mighty door. Once though door, they fight 6 elemental minibosses (each requiring a different tactic, usualy somehting envolving the enviornment in the area) then confront the Prismatic Elemental of Discord that will be very challengign encounter that will change as the fight progresses. Boss will start by using Scout-like skills, having no regard for it's defense, but rather focusing it's attacks to be deadly accurate and highly damageing in one burst(Warrior tanks are msot effective here). At 75% it will switch to caster mode, realizing that it's physical damage isnt quite as effect, and start raining down heaving single nukes stuns and AOE rains of hell the works, and this is where a Crusader will shine as the Magical Damage Tank. At 50% it will become weary, going slightly more defesnive and beging to become like a priest and begin to heal it'self, durring this crucial mid point, it will fly up in the air and begin healing it'self, and smiting from above( it is invulnerable while flying) someone in raid has to clime a wall murial to get to the second balcony where a magical cannon (or stationary cross bow...still deciding which is cooler!) but on the murial are tiny double down spiders that will try to knock the slimer down, the ranged attackers in the raid must dispatch the spiders as the climer cant attack (one hit will knock spiders off wall, aka instant killingthem) Once the weapon is fired at mob, it will drop back 10% hp and become targetable again. If mob is not droped to 25% in 1 min, it will fly again and must be shot down again (cross bow wont drop it below the 25% marker) Allow scouts to clime faster than any other player or make the weapon scout useable only as to give them an important role in the fight! Finally at 25% it will become desprit and raged, it will focus primarily on defense now as it is near death! But it will go into raging combat attacks that hit the tank 10 times, each hit 20% stronger than last! But these raged attacks will be inaccurate, and if one misses, then the followthoughs also miss , and this is how the brawler gets the advantage of the mob. Calmness vs Rage, there is no contest! It will perform personal body AOE attacks, so the fragil scout classes might want to back up and focus on ranged attacks. When defeated the raid party will be illuminated, and thespell chosen at the begining of the event will become adept4! I will continue to update this as i get more innovative ideas in the future, but for now, good by and may God or whom ever your follow, bless :smileyhappy: PS: I tried to make this as easy to read as possible, if you also have any suggestions, additions, or revisons to my post (or font, color of font, or layout of post that would make it easier to read) please REPLY!! Need others oppinons to makes this truely good!!</DIV> (btw im only 16, but please dont steriotype me with my age group. Some are good , but we get a bad rep. :smileywink: ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gona continue insert my newly thought up infor from other posts/replys at the end of this to save others the hassle of reading though them all in the future. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I also play both classes and i find that both can tank...if u got a healer spaming heals and using up their power...till you get one hit killed, which will eventualy happen on either class. Granted my ranger is only 24(and i know im no "expert" ranger at that level), he still takes a ton of damage when he gets aggro using crafted suit of medium armor, enough to justify damage compairible to a mage. And regardlessof defense, scouts bring little more than damage to the table (with the exception of escape, disarmtrap, and Heroic opp flipping, and bard's songs and swash's mezz) but thoughs are situationaly helpful, except the songs and mezz, which are both wonderful skills... except the mages have better versions of them, aka if u need crowd control, an enchanter is allways thought of before a swash. Long story short, if 1/2 a battle requires magical damage, and the other 1/2 requires physical strikes, they should be within a compairable margine for it to work. Scout and Mage are the damaging 1/2 of all of the classes, fighter and priests make up the defensive. (and about your post that said "As a scout I can tank things fairly well", please list all of your taunts defensive buffs protection skills, damage reducing for defensive bonus ect, you will find no scout can taunt unless youra rogue, the only defensive buff is a minor + parry -attackspeed, now add all that up, and compair it to how many attacks you have) Anyways, their should be a time and a place for everyone. Some times Mages should be outdamageing scouts since mob has a butt load of armor on, and the inverse is true, when fighting another caster mob with high magical resistances, the scout's deadly attack shold rip right though the mobs little dress <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> Just saying that "mages>scout ALLWAYS AND INDEFINATLY" would just not cut it guys. A Deadly assassan or accurate ranger can be ust as deadly as a wizard in some areas. Headshot anyone? Juggular slice ?<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif" width=16 border=0> Unless they give scouts somethign only they can do and make it a crusial point in fighting, there is no reasion for them to do less in their primary roll (damage) just to satisfy some mage (i have played every class to 23 atleast in Qeynos with exception of the warriors, shamans, and rogues) And TBH you should read the whole think insted of making a prejudice deision on the first few lines (and yes, that is prejudice as you based my whole post and opionon on one line, which i go into more deatail if you would have only taken the time to read) Sorry you didn't agree with one minor line of my 8 page post... BUT don't let that stop all you other people with also helpfull sugestions or other revisons such as these 2 people have stated! As allways, PLEASE REPLY <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sorry Blood ^_^ <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted that this would be a very challenging x2 raid, master 2 raid would be even more detailed. Making the raid take a long time and with increased difficult justifies getting a spell better than any created! And if your raid can handle a x4, then your rewarded with best skills in game! But you KNOW thats gota be a tuffy or everyone and their grandma will have all their spells master2 (well..one every 2 weeks)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanks for replying but I'm still cooking up some realy hard stuff for a x4 muahaha! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep them replys a comming!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><still waiting for a Dev to read it...even though it tis FORBIDDEN to ask lol!></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> Thanks for agreeing with my "all classess should not be balanced across archetypes but within archetypes" statement! Though, let me rephrase my statement, scouts should still = mage in dps in groups. When soloing the mage should and more than likely will have higher dps than a solo scout for 2 reasions A) Much less risk for scout vs risk for some mages (enchanter and soceror is risky solo because it's based upon roots and stuns and carefull timing, but conjuror should be safer, but slightly slower sense they will have to watch aggro from pet and they wont get to use their damage pet, also imo the current aggro is too low for my adept3 soldier <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" width=16 border=0>.... B) The majority of scout's damageing attacks are positional, stealth, or long and easily interuptible casting (bard nukes), compaired to soceror/enchanter using any of their spells (except dots that run a high chance of braking root) A solution to problem B would be to add a new skill line for scouts ! My whole ideal for making scouts a viable solo class can be summed up in one awe-inspiring word!!!! Distractions! (or Slips/Flashes) Yup, Distraction skill line. Imagine if your a solo rogue taking on a single solo mob. While fighting, the mob will focus on you and only you, so u cant get to that oh so sweet kink in his back's armor.... but wait! You cause a distraction, confusing the mob, making it turn the opposit direction for a brief time, allowing u to score a strong hit! Such a dirty trick for your cunning scout is it not? As far as mechanics, this would be simple, make this skill "summon" a wisp modle on the opposit side of the mob your fihgitng (or possibly always on mobs back) that taunts the mob for highest able taunting value, and this wisp has 1 hp, and when killed, stuns mob for 5 seconds. This skill would have a 30s or 1 min reuse (depending on how the devs see fit) costing a low amount of power. Another type of skill that could be implemented fairly easily is a Bomb or Flash technic that stuns mob momentarily (simular to a upgrade to Cheepshot) that automaticaly possitions the scout behind the mob for a attack! Both of these should not be to incredibly hard to implement, and would greatly increase scouts solo abilty with out making it trivial. Make this not work on heroics and epics so the 5 second stun isnt abused, or maby heroics but certainly not epics. As allways PLEASE REPLY with any suggestions revisons blah blah blah you know the drill <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 06-22-2005 03:06 PM Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 06-22-2005 03:07 PMMessage Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 06-22-2005 03:09 PM

Endraal

06-22-2005, 07:12 AM

<blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div></blockquote> As for the problem with mage vs. Scout, a new equation needs to be written! Mage=Scout>Fighter>Priest The only reason Scouts get slightly (and lets be honest, it is very slight) more defense than a mage is that to perform their = damage they are forced into melee range of mobs. This is just wrong - sorry. I play both classes and I can tell you straight up that scout mitigation is huge compared to a caster. As a scout I can tank things fairly well ( within reason - but still) as a caster I can take 2 hits and die. I stopped reading after this, cause if your basic premise is wrong - I'm not spending more time on it. <div></div>

Andre

06-22-2005, 05:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Endraal wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote: <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> As for the problem with mage vs. Scout, a new equation needs to be written! Mage=Scout>Fighter>Priest The only reason Scouts get slightly (and lets be honest, it is very slight) more defense than a mage is that to perform their = damage they are forced into melee range of mobs. This is just wrong - sorry. I play both classes and I can tell you straight up that scout mitigation is huge compared to a caster. As a scout I can tank things fairly well ( within reason - but still) as a caster I can take 2 hits and die. I stopped reading after this, cause if your basic premise is wrong - I'm not spending more time on it. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Completely agree. If i may citate an autor "wrong foundation=weak building" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Casters are most weak things in game so they should have most dmage to kill things before they get chance to kill mage. And therefore if any of mages have skills / spells that prevent mob from doing damage on them they should get less damage capability as those who don't have such opportunity. DPS Sourcer>Summooner>Enchanter... After fight HP/Mana Enchanter>Summoner>Sourcer.

korruptidsoul

06-22-2005, 06:16 PM

How can you guys say that caster's are the weakest class??!?!? I am a 49 Shadowknight and I watch Wizards and Warlocks solo epic mobs all the time. And not the green ones or grey ones, but yellow and orange ones. And they do it EASILY! I don't care how much damage you cannot mitigate or avoid, a ROOT spell prevents the need for either to begin with. Name one scout that can solo a yellow epic mob(s) and maybe I will change my views on this, but as it stands mage should = scout in dps. A scouts mitigation is negligable against any serious mob.

bloo

06-22-2005, 06:20 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote: <DIV> Here is an example of a raid for adept4- You and your 2 group raid party have been charged with assulting fortess made by distructive Elementals that is protected with an powerfull barrier. These elementals are also protected by this shield. This fortress is in a pocket deminsion and to get there your raid must use a orb. this orb will be outside the fortress and is your zone in point. With out this vital anchoring point your raid will be wisped out of the demension! So now u have a stationary postion you must defend. How ever shall they defeat this barrier?? but wait! A scout has found a secrit entrance to a lower area that leads to the 6 elemental powercores that feed the barrior and shields on the elementals. Thus the fight beggins! elementals pour from the fortress and everyone begins to fight, but oh no! nothing not even powerfull spells will harm the foes! The fighters notus their taunts still work, and healers can allways heal, so they decide to use their defense and stave off the attack till the offensive party can go down and shut down their shields. So the second party desends(zones) into the darkness of the catacombes below the fortress! After going though a small maze, their way is barred by a door that asks riddles, for each incorrect answer, the person is sent back to begginging of maze, once door's questions are all ansered correctly, the second part is wisped into the next room, where they must use their stealth to avoid foes (app3 or 4 invis/sneak required at this point, so scholars dont friet) while moving objects to navigate the mini dungion. Finaly they get to the shield's cores! To destroy them, different classes must used the opposing element of the orb to destroy it. Fire vs Ice/water,Magic vs mental, Disease and poison vs Divine, once destroyed, they are teleported back to the Anchoring point, where they can rejoin their first group (who by now is stuggling under the wieght of the elementals attack) and unleash some damage on the now vulnerable elementals. After raid fights to the fortress door, they must coordinate 6 people to attack 6 weakened studs at same time (with in a 2 second margine of error) to destroy the mighty door. Once though door, they fight 6 elemental minibosses (each requiring a different tactic, usualy somehting envolving the enviornment in the area) then confront the Prismatic Elemental of Discord that will be very challengign encounter that will change as the fight progresses. Boss will start by using Scout-like skills, having no regard for it's defense, but rather focusing it's attacks to be deadly accurate and highly damageing in one burst(Warrior tanks are msot effective here). At 75% it will switch to caster mode, realizing that it's physical damage isnt quite as effect, and start raining down heaving single nukes stuns and AOE rains of hell the works, and this is where a Crusader will shine as the Magical Damage Tank. At 50% it will become weary, going slightly more defesnive and beging to become like a priest and begin to heal it'self, durring this crucial mid point, it will fly up in the air and begin healing it'self, and smiting from above( it is invulnerable while flying) someone in raid has to clime a wall murial to get to the second balcony where a magical cannon (or stationary cross bow...still deciding which is cooler!) but on the murial are tiny double down spiders that will try to knock the slimer down, the ranged attackers in the raid must dispatch the spiders as the climer cant attack (one hit will knock spiders off wall, aka instant killingthem) Once the weapon is fired at mob, it will drop back 10% hp and become targetable again. If mob is not droped to 25% in 1 min, it will fly again and must be shot down again (cross bow wont drop it below the 25% marker) Allow scouts to clime faster than any other player or make the weapon scout useable only as to give them an important role in the fight! Finally at 25% it will become desprit and raged, it will focus primarily on defense now as it is near death! But it will go into raging combat attacks that hit the tank 10 times, each hit 20% stronger than last! But these raged attacks will be inaccurate, and if one misses, then the followthoughs also miss , and this is how the brawler gets the advantage of the mob. Calmness vs Rage, there is no contest! It will perform personal body AOE attacks, so the fragil scout classes might want to back up and focus on ranged attacks. When defeated the raid party will be illuminated, and thespell chosen at the begining of the event will become adept4! </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Heh, that was fun to read, you have a very good idea there, but this could be a master I spell instead of a adept 4. This looks very challenging and exciting to do. </DIV>

Eyes_of_Truth

06-22-2005, 06:55 PM

I also play both classes and i find that both can tank...if u got a healer spaming heals and using up their power...till you get one hit killed, which will eventualy happen on either class. Granted my ranger is only 24(and i know im no "expert" ranger at that level), he still takes a ton of damage when he gets aggro using crafted suit of medium armor, enough to justify damage compairible to a mage. And regardlessof defense, scouts bring little more than damage to the table (with the exception of escape, disarmtrap, and Heroic opp flipping, and bard's songs and swash's mezz) but thoughs are situationaly helpful, except the songs and mezz, which are both wonderful skills... except the mages have better versions of them, aka if u need crowd control, an enchanter is allways thought of before a swash. Long story short, if 1/2 a battle requires magical damage, and the other 1/2 requires physical strikes, they should be within a compairable margine for it to work. Scout and Mage are the damaging 1/2 of all of the classes, fighter and priests make up the defensive. (and about your post that said "As a scout I can tank things fairly well", please list all of your taunts defensive buffs protection skills, damage reducing for defensive bonus ect, you will find no scout can taunt unless youra rogue, the only defensive buff is a minor + parry -attackspeed, now add all that up, and compair it to how many attacks you have) Anyways, their should be a time and a place for everyone. Some times Mages should be outdamageing scouts since mob has a butt load of armor on, and the inverse is true, when fighting another caster mob with high magical resistances, the scout's deadly attack shold rip right though the mobs little dress :smileywink: Just saying that "mages>scout ALLWAYS AND INDEFINATLY" would just not cut it guys. A Deadly assassan or accurate ranger can be ust as deadly as a wizard in some areas. Headshot anyone? Juggular slice ?:smileysurprised: Unless they give scouts somethign only they can do and make it a crusial point in fighting, there is no reasion for them to do less in their primary roll (damage) just to satisfy some mage (i have played every class to 23 atleast in Qeynos with exception of the warriors, shamans, and rogues) And TBH you should read the whole think insted of making a prejudice deision on the first few lines (and yes, that is prejudice as you based my whole post and opionon on one line, which i go into more deatail if you would have only taken the time to read) Sorry you didn't agree with one minor line of my 8 page post... BUT don't let that stop all you other people with also helpfull sugestions or other revisons such as these 2 people have stated! As allways, PLEASE REPLY :smileyvery-happy:

Eyes_of_Truth

06-22-2005, 07:00 PM

Sorry Blood ^_^ <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted that this would be a very challenging x2 raid, master 2 raid would be even more detailed. Making the raid take a long time and with increased difficult justifies getting a spell better than any created! And if your raid can handle a x4, then your rewarded with best skills in game! But you KNOW thats gota be a tuffy or everyone and their grandma will have all their spells master2 (well..one every 2 weeks)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanks for replying but I'm still cooking up some realy hard stuff for a x4 muahaha! :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep them replys a comming!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><still waiting for a Dev to read it...even though it tis FORBIDDEN to ask lol!></DIV>

Dejah

06-22-2005, 10:07 PM

I read the whole thing... Your raid scenarios are... interesting. The one thing I REALLY liked is the idea of getting rid of the MT on raids. It never did quite make sense to me that with a small army of adventurers, that only one person would tank the monster. It just seems wierd to me, and it's kind of immersive breaking. I think they could accomplish this without having to add a "battalion" feature to the game. If every fighter had a buff that was basically "intercept 16% of melee attacks on target", and this skill could be cast only on other fighters(accross raid groups too), then a raid with 6 fighters would be able to distribute the damage amongst all the tanks. Then, instead of healers all healing the main tank, each healer (assuming 6 healers as well) could be assigned a fighter for which it will be their job to keep healed. Then every tank could be taunting and not just one, so if one tank does go down, the raid mob would just go onto the next tank. Some good ideas, keep of the good work. P.S. I would change the title of this thread, so it doesn't get needlessly locked by a moderator.

Lady Uaelr

06-22-2005, 11:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korruptidsoul wrote: How can you guys say that caster's are the weakest class??!?!? I am a 49 Shadowknight and I watch Wizards and Warlocks solo epic mobs all the time. And not the green ones or grey ones, but yellow and orange ones. And they do it EASILY! I don't care how much damage you cannot mitigate or avoid, a ROOT spell prevents the need for either to begin with. Name one scout that can solo a yellow epic mob(s) and maybe I will change my views on this, but as it stands mage should = scout in dps. A scouts mitigation is negligable against any serious mob. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Why not eliminate casters and just leave scouts since they will be able to provide same amount of DPS. Scouts are effective solo class also.....Casters will die if root break---1,2 hits dead. I have seen scouts with 3500-4k hitpoints. Caster if they are lucky only has at the most 2500-2800 without any buffs. Play a caster and try it yourself. I recommend it to everyone so when you post you have a clear perspective. Remember, you are not restricted to your toon you can play other classes. I agree with the statement that all classess should not be balanced across archetypes but within archetypes.

Eyes_of_Truth

06-23-2005, 01:30 AM

<DIV></DIV> Thanks for agreeing with my "all classess should not be balanced across archetypes but within archetypes" statement! Though, let me rephrase my statement, scouts should still = mage in dps in groups. When soloing the mage should and more than likely will have higher dps than a solo scout for 2 reasions A) Much less risk for scout vs risk for some mages (enchanter and soceror is risky solo because it's based upon roots and stuns and carefull timing, but conjuror should be safer, but slightly slower sense they will have to watch aggro from pet and they wont get to use their damage pet, also imo the current aggro is too low for my adept3 soldier :smileysad:.... B) The majority of scout's damageing attacks are positional, stealth, or long and easily interuptible casting (bard nukes), compaired to soceror/enchanter using any of their spells (except dots that run a high chance of braking root) A solution to problem B would be to add a new skill line for scouts ! My whole ideal for making scouts a viable solo class can be summed up in one awe-inspiring word!!!! Distractions! (or Slips/Flashes) Yup, Distraction skill line. Imagine if your a solo rogue taking on a single solo mob. While fighting, the mob will focus on you and only you, so u cant get to that oh so sweet kink in his back's armor.... but wait! You cause a distraction, confusing the mob, making it turn the opposit direction for a brief time, allowing u to score a strong hit! Such a dirty trick for your cunning scout is it not? As far as mechanics, this would be simple, make this skill "summon" a wisp modle on the opposit side of the mob your fihgitng (or possibly always on mobs back) that taunts the mob for highest able taunting value, and this wisp has 1 hp, and when killed, stuns mob for 5 seconds. This skill would have a 30s or 1 min reuse (depending on how the devs see fit) costing a low amount of power. Another type of skill that could be implemented fairly easily is a Bomb or Flash technic that stuns mob momentarily (simular to a upgrade to Cheepshot) that automaticaly possitions the scout behind the mob for a attack! Both of these should not be to incredibly hard to implement, and would greatly increase scouts solo abilty with out making it trivial. Make this not work on heroics and epics so the 5 second stun isnt abused, or maby heroics but certainly not epics. As allways PLEASE REPLY with any suggestions revisons blah blah blah you know the drill :smileywink:Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 06-22-2005 02:33 PM

Kirotaan

06-23-2005, 02:08 AM

<blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<div></div> Thanks for agreeing with my "all classess should not be balanced across archetypes but within archetypes" statement! Though, let me rephrase my statement, scouts should still = mage in dps in groups. When soloing the mage should and more than likely will have higher dps than a solo scout for 2 reasions A) Much less risk for scout vs risk for some mages (enchanter and soceror is risky solo because it's based upon roots and stuns and carefull timing, but conjuror should be safer, but slightly slower sense they will have to watch aggro from pet and they wont get to use their damage pet, also imo the current aggro is too low for my adept3 soldier :smileysad:.... B) The majority of scout's damageing attacks are positional, stealth, or long and easily interuptible casting (bard nukes), compaired to soceror/enchanter using any of their spells (except dots that run a high chance of braking root) A solution to problem B would be to add a new skill line for scouts ! My whole ideal for making scouts a viable solo class can be summed up in one awe-inspiring word!!!! Distractions! (or Slips/Flashes) Yup, Distraction skill line. Imagine if your a solo rogue taking on a single solo mob. While fighting, the mob will focus on you and only you, so u cant get to that oh so sweet kink in his back's armor.... but wait! You cause a distraction, confusing the mob, making it turn the opposit direction for a brief time, allowing u to score a strong hit! Such a dirty trick for your cunning scout is it not? As far as mechanics, this would be simple, make this skill "summon" a wisp modle on the opposit side of the mob your fihgitng (or possibly always on mobs back) that taunts the mob for highest able taunting value, and this wisp has 1 hp, and when killed, stuns mob for 5 seconds. This skill would have a 30s or 1 min reuse (depending on how the devs see fit) costing a low amount of power. ----->Another type of skill that could be implemented fairly easily is a Bomb or Flash technic that stuns mob momentarily (simular to a upgrade to Cheepshot) that automaticaly possitions the scout behind the mob for a attack! Both of these should not be to incredibly hard to implement, and would greatly increase scouts solo abilty with out making it trivial. Make this not work on heroics and epics so the 5 second stun isnt abused, or maby heroics but certainly not epics. As allways PLEASE REPLY with any suggestions revisons blah blah blah you know the drill :smileywink:Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 06-22-2005 02:33 PM<hr> I don't play a scout but I think you are splitting a fine line with the automatic ability to be behind the mob. Some of the abilities we gain are abilities for a reason. Some of it has to be luck (or operator ability) to get behind the char before the stun wears off. </blockquote><div></div>

Eyes_of_Truth

06-23-2005, 02:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kirotaan wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote: <DIV></DIV> Thanks for agreeing with my "all classess should not be balanced across archetypes but within archetypes" statement! Though, let me rephrase my statement, scouts should still = mage in dps in groups. When soloing the mage should and more than likely will have higher dps than a solo scout for 2 reasions A) Much less risk for scout vs risk for some mages (enchanter and soceror is risky solo because it's based upon roots and stuns and carefull timing, but conjuror should be safer, but slightly slower sense they will have to watch aggro from pet and they wont get to use their damage pet, also imo the current aggro is too low for my adept3 soldier :smileysad:.... B) The majority of scout's damageing attacks are positional, stealth, or long and easily interuptible casting (bard nukes), compaired to soceror/enchanter using any of their spells (except dots that run a high chance of braking root) A solution to problem B would be to add a new skill line for scouts ! My whole ideal for making scouts a viable solo class can be summed up in one awe-inspiring word!!!! Distractions! (or Slips/Flashes) Yup, Distraction skill line. Imagine if your a solo rogue taking on a single solo mob. While fighting, the mob will focus on you and only you, so u cant get to that oh so sweet kink in his back's armor.... but wait! You cause a distraction, confusing the mob, making it turn the opposit direction for a brief time, allowing u to score a strong hit! Such a dirty trick for your cunning scout is it not? As far as mechanics, this would be simple, make this skill "summon" a wisp modle on the opposit side of the mob your fihgitng (or possibly always on mobs back) that taunts the mob for highest able taunting value, and this wisp has 1 hp, and when killed, stuns mob for 5 seconds. This skill would have a 30s or 1 min reuse (depending on how the devs see fit) costing a low amount of power. ----->Another type of skill that could be implemented fairly easily is a Bomb or Flash technic that stuns mob momentarily (simular to a upgrade to Cheepshot) that automaticaly possitions the scout behind the mob for a attack! Both of these should not be to incredibly hard to implement, and would greatly increase scouts solo abilty with out making it trivial. Make this not work on heroics and epics so the 5 second stun isnt abused, or maby heroics but certainly not epics. As allways PLEASE REPLY with any suggestions revisons blah blah blah you know the drill :smileywink: Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 06-22-2005 02:33 PM <HR> I don't play a scout but I think you are splitting a fine line with the automatic ability to be behind the mob. Some of the abilities we gain are abilities for a reason. Some of it has to be luck (or operator ability) to get behind the char before the stun wears off. </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, but not all scouts currently have that option. Rogues are the only scouts that get an upgrade to cheepshot, correct me if im wrong on that, i havent played rouge class but i have looked at skill lists on different sites and i *think* they do, but im pritty sure the bard and predator classes dont get an upgreade (i have abard and pred) this is not counting training abilties. Predators are terrible at solo with exception of Kiteing and cant use their steal attacks while doing so. And it looks like devs are trying to throwout the ability to kite, only time and Combat Revamp will tell. Bards.... im my experience are one of the hardest solo classes (as are enchanters due to low damage, and summoner dispite having a pet is not the 'best' solo class either. Have to go now will talk more on this subject later (dont flame me yet! im not done!) Toodles!

Gorkk00

06-24-2005, 01:33 AM

<blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote: Thanks for agreeing with my "all classess should not be balanced across archetypes but within archetypes" statement! Though, let me rephrase my statement, scouts should still = mage in dps in groups.Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 06-22-2005 02:33 PM<hr></blockquote>Good ideas in there. Though, mages should have better DPS in short fights (still in group, soloing, as you said they should have better DPS than scout), with scouts maybe having the ascendent over long fights (those where you end up oop at the middle of it): when oop, a mage can do nothing, whereas the scout can still contribute with his auto-attack and thus proc the different procs he has on him. Remember than where scouts can resist to a few hits if they get aggro, mage can't, 2 hits at most and they're dead. Where scouts have a bunch of abilities to decrease their aggro, mages have at most a crapy one which will teleport them nearby and in crowded zone teleport them in a middle of another group, so death + add for the group :/). So i still think that in the end mages should be > to scouts, with higher DPS scouts being better DPS than lower DPS mages, but with higher DPS mages > higher DPS scouts > middle DPS mages > middle DPS scouts > Lower DPS mages > lower DPS scouts (not that much either, don't mkae me tell what i didn't tell)<div></div>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-04-2005, 11:24 AM

Adding this from another post i made to elaborate on my ideas of balancing within an archetype: And as for balance... Please, please, please... Balance it within the Archetypes not accoss them. In the game, as bad as some would think this sounds, their are 2 quintessential roles. Damage input and damage output, or Offense and Defense if you will. 1/2 of the classes are designated to each. Fighter and Priests are defense Scouts and Mages are offense If this rule is not upheld, the overall balance is completely nullified The Archetype defines what you are and what your main focus for the rest of the game is. If you want to do very good physical damage, dont go mage,fighter,or priest, GO SCOUT The way it should work is like this: In a group, the Fighter will be the armor, Priest will be the smithy continualy repairing the armor in a fight (yes, not possible in realworld ) <DIV>Mages will be your magic wand that deals magical damage/effects, and Scouts are your deadly accurate blades that deal physical damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They can do these core roles in many many different ways, but armor shouldnt be outdamaging the sword, nor should the smithy be outdamageing the armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But i digress, damage accros the archetype should be fairly equill with the sum of their parts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the following comparisons, assume that the mob is a constant, with no high resists or weak ones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mage and Scout archtype damage:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1st = Warlock/wizard = Ranger/Assassin These should be the best all around damage in game, but weaker in other rolls </DIV> <DIV>2nd = Conjuror/necro (dps pet) = Swashbuckler/Brigand These should be very good sustained damage, and very good at lowering defense of targets</DIV> <DIV>3rd = Illusionist/coercer = Dirge/Troubador These should be very good at improving group's damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imagine it like this for mages:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Each mage keeps their same spells they get at level 10, but each mage gets the exact same nuke, just of a differnet spell type. Mental for ench, Fire for soceror, and Magic for summoner. Say it does 50 damage for 20 power, 2 second cast, no recast </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 11 they get a single target offensive buff. Soceror's is a direct damage heat proc(much much stronger than it is now), Summoners is a pet buff that increases offense of pet but lowers defense, Enchanter's Augment - attack haste/reuse time reduction and 15% damage boost to target's CA/spells</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 12 they all get a group power buff, but each has a different side effect tact on. Soceroer's is a 10% chance to deal damage to target when struck (giving them a boost to offense) enchanter's has a 10% chance to lower targets power and stifle when struck, and summoner's has a 10% chance to dot the attacker and lower their resists. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I forgot to mention, at 10, the Soceror's Blaze spell would be 100 damage for 60 power, 1 second casting time and 5 second recast. It would be a "burnout nuke" that does alot of damage quickly but has a longer reuse and lower efficancy with a high power cost, giving them the damage edge in shorter fights, but would run dry in more than 4 casts unaided. Enchanter's get mess, and Summoner gets the pet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 13, they each get a DoT with 30 sec duration, soceror gets 15 damage ice dot for soceror that snares target, Enchanter gets 20 damage mental dot that does 10 power drain each tic and lowers arcane resists, summoner gets a 30 damage magic dot that lowers elemental/noxious spell resists of target.</DIV> <DIV>They also get their personal power regen. Soceror's gets 100power, but stuns them for 10 seconds, summoner's deals 25 damage to pet and gives summoner 20 power for 4 tics, enchanter's steals 75 power from enchanter's target and gives it to the enchanter. Each has a 30 second reuse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 14, they each get a stun. Soceror's is their freeze spell they currently have, Summoner's get Petrify, and Enchanters get their Daunting gaze. Keep these spells as they are live. Summoner also get their pet heal, Soceror get a elemental/noxious self absorb ward (the damage spell will heal the sorceror) and Enchanter gets a arcane damage absorb ward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 15 they each get a silence spell. Enchanter's get Overwelming silence as it is live, Soceror's get Tounge twist as it is live, and Summoner's get Runestone Strike-15 magic dot that stifles for 5 seconds and lasts for 20. They each get a AOE damage spell, sorceror gets Ice Rain, 50 ice nuke for 30 power, 6 sec reuse, Summoner get's Seism as it is live, Enchanter gets Mental Backlash, 50 power drain to encounter, and gives it to group by 10 power for 5 tics</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 16 give them class specific spells. Give sorceror Inferno Sphere-a komakozie summed pet that is basicaly a nuke (taunts target and deals 75 to target encounter when slain) -40 power 1 min recast, stuns soceror for 5 seconds, Give enchanter an encounter wide mezz(1min) that stuns enchanter for duration, and give summoner Swarm of Snakes, summons mini pets simular to the higher leel necro/conjuror swarm summons, stuns summoner for 6 seconds- 1 min reuse on all of these spells</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 17 they get anti-aggro spells, Soceror get's Zap, 3 sec stun and lowers aggro, enchanter get's Blink that they have live, and summoner get's Misguided Provocation, gives pet 75% of the summoner's aggro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 18 they get their power giving spells, Soceror get Transpherance a 100 power granting spell that takes 75 power from soceror, Summoners get Splinter of Essence that gives 50 power when used, with a 10 second recast on the item, instant cast on item with 3 charges, Enchanter get's breeze, 8 power regen for 15 min.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 19 they get their root spells. Sorcerors get Frozen Manacles as it is live but a snare added to it when it brakes, Summoner's get Immobilize that increases pet's aggro when root brakes, enchanter gets Blinding Light that lowers target's attack speed and damage of all ca/spells by 5%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know it was lengthy, but that is an example of balancing with-in the Archetype. Scouts would be simular to this, they would have some generic "scout" attacks with different secondairy effects that make them better in sertain situations, as well as some skills unique to their class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While each mage will beable to cover the DPS role in a group, they work best when together. A sorceror will go oop using their highest damage nukes, and since they dont have many resist debuffs so they wont hit for full damage. So if you add an Enchanter and Summoner, the Sorceror will land full damage more offtend because of the Summoner's powerfull resist debufs and Splinter/Breeze from enchanter continualy replenishing power (the sorceror wont ahve to wait for 10 seconds for their power spell's stun if they have continual power coming in)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When together, this allows all three of them to have a greatly increased damage and effiecancy. The scouts would also follow this simular idea, Rouges open up defense of target, predators use high damage CA that take time to set up (sneak then attack, while doing this the Rouge could weaken defense so Pred can land for higher damage) and Bards can increase groups haste+spell/CA damage as well as lower spell defense, increases everyones damage, and increasing hp/power regen. Enchanter's augment can increase summoner's pet's damage, as well as summoner's spell damage, and even soercerors spell damage all by 15%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stacking each of the 3 mage classes together should provid a better benefit rather than doubling up on the same class, aka 2 sorcerors wont perform as well as a sorceror and a summoner or soerceror and a enchanter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they balanced the game like that, it would provide much more diversity but still be balanced enough that anyone can step up to the plate when needed. Also, with people concerned that Fighter's only have one spot in a group, the devs need to give fighters a way to combine their defensive skills (simular to a fighter protecting a fighter, like a paladin using offering of armorment and acient pledge on a guardian) but make it a fighter-only skill that divides all incoming damage between the two fighters. Like say mob_A hit's for 100 damage before other things come into equation like mitigationa and avoidance, tank_A and tank_B will both take 50% of the damage, part of the negative effect is that the total damage is increased by 25%, so your dividing 125 damage by two players wish is 62.5. So insted of having one high hit of 100, each player will only take 62.5 damage, then that will be mitigated and roll against avoidance. If a warrior and brawler use this, the warrior probly wouldnt dodge it, but would mititgate about 60% of the blow, so he would take about 25-29 damage, and the brawler has a chance to avoid it completely or take probly about 45 damage. then the reactive heals would go off, or ward would absorb damage. Meaning a hit that would have done 100 damage will only do a max of 29+45(brawler got hit)=74, but if dodged by brawler, would do a minimum of 25-29 damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This solves the problem of a brawler getting extramly heavy spike damage by spreding it out, and by dodgeing part of the attack, the plate tank only has to confront with his 50% of the damage. So if a brawler get's alot of lucky dodges, the plate tank would be taking about 1/2 the normal damage. Apply this with a crusader by giving them strong self-wards that prevent spell damage. this woudl alow them to take alot of the brunt of the spell's damage and divide it up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another idea for co-op ammong the archeytype is allowing special heroic opportunisties that can only be done with 3 of the same archetype. Like the mage one could have a powerfuly prismatic resist multi attack, a group power regen, or a strong attack pet summon (dies when target dies or it dies), priests coudl get special group buffs and tripple effect group heals and such, scouts could get some nice attack combos that greatly lower target's defenses, lower target's damage, and other stuff. Fighter's could get defense buffs that increase the three fighter's defenses, and powerfully + hate buff/taunt. Plenty of options of SOE wanted to truely make co-op classes usfull. The potential is there and not too hard to implement, heroic opportunities could be dynamicaly more important that they currently are. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i dont care what you say, currently with the exception of some realy rare ones, they are not increadable "tide turners" that they should be. Granted i would like them to be hard to use, but i want a bigger reward. Maby add a 1 minute timer for co-op ones, but just add some reasion for me to want to group with my mage brothers than a lame soerceror scoerceror soerceror enchanter warrior cleric..... soooo trite lol <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please reply with any thoughts or revisons to my post. If you need clerification on any of my points please ask. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles</DIV> <DIV></DIV>

Goozman

07-11-2005, 05:32 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> korruptidsoul wrote: How can you guys say that caster's are the weakest class??!?!? I am a 49 Shadowknight and I watch Wizards and Warlocks solo epic mobs all the time. And not the green ones or grey ones, but yellow and orange ones. And they do it EASILY! I don't care how much damage you cannot mitigate or avoid, a ROOT spell prevents the need for either to begin with. Name one scout that can solo a yellow epic mob(s) and maybe I will change my views on this, but as it stands mage should = scout in dps. A scouts mitigation is negligable against any serious mob. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The mob they solo is hardly epic. It's only group x 2 because it is effectively 2 group mobs, and anyone can solo them with a hex doll and imbued wand. Sorcerers can't solo epic mobs (those being ^^^)</DIV>

Silvo

07-12-2005, 07:56 PM

<DIV>Distractions! (or Slips/Flashes) (didn't want to quotoe the whole thing)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Great idea. Give scouts some more solo capability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the root problem is supposedly defensive tanks can out dps a dps class. In a group as a scout with a monk in the group it's a toss up who is going to do more dps unless I spam abilities and really push stealing agro from the guardian. (sarcasm on) I guess to even things up they should make priests tank as well as fighters.(sarcasm off)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The vaporware combat balancing the keep promising and not delivering should have been figured out in beta.</DIV>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-12-2005, 09:17 PM

hehe ty for the bump, and what a good one it was! Ya, scouts need to have = damage to their appropreat mage counter part, Pred = Sorcerer, Rogue = Summoner, Bard = Enchanter, and they each need something else they bring besides damage. Sorcerer and Predators lower targets chance of avoiding, they heavely reliant that their big hits land and dont miss. Give Sorcerer's a spell line that lowers the mobs magical avoidance (a complete resist) and give predators snare line a avoidance debuff. Rogues and Summoners can get the best mitigation debuffs (resists in Summoner's case) to allow them (and Sorcerers especially) to deal closer to max damage with each spell. In a prolonged fight, they should match the damage done by tier 1 group, occasionaly doing more or less than tier 1. Enchanters and Bards need improved damage boosting capabilities with a slightly reduced personal DPS in comparison to tier 1 & 2. Give them an Augmentation of ---- line for enchanter that increases target's attack speed and CA/Spell damage by 15-25%, and give Bards a Rally of ----- line that increases groups attack speed and CA/Spell damage by 20-30%. Give Enchanter better power regen (like say at level 20, if enchanter's breeze does 9 power a tic, let bards group song do 7 power, if they are using same spell quality) Well, hope this helped! Toodles!

neria

07-12-2005, 11:52 PM

<DIV>No, scouts should not have the same damage as mages. Mages get hit twice and they die. Scouts /can/ tank small mobs. Scouts also have lots of utility, which I know people on these boards like to say doesn't matter, and maybe it doesn't for raiding. But the game is NOT all about raiding. Tracking, flipping HO's, stealth, even disarming traps, are all quite excellent abilities that I really miss when I'm not playing my scout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts should perhaps get a bit more defense -- a bit more avoidance, or more avoidance skills, would especially make sense. But as much damage as a mage? No way. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try playing more than one class or playing with someone who plays a wizard. I have a scout who duo's with a mage, gonna be swashbuckler/wizard. If, with my defense, I start doing anywhere near his damage regularly, I'm going to be angry, because that's extremely unfair. Also, for more damage, I'd have to give up defense; no thanks. I really wish everyone would experience each class, because then they might not be so hasty to say "my class sucks buff it!" or "the other class is overpowered nerf it!"</DIV>Message Edited by neriana on 07-12-2005 12:53 PM

Eyes_of_Truth

07-13-2005, 12:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> neriana wrote: <DIV>No, scouts should not have the same damage as mages. Mages get hit twice and they die. Scouts /can/ tank small mobs. Scouts also have lots of utility, which I know people on these boards like to say doesn't matter, and maybe it doesn't for raiding. But the game is NOT all about raiding. Tracking, flipping HO's, stealth, even disarming traps, are all quite excellent abilities that I really miss when I'm not playing my scout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts should perhaps get a bit more defense -- a bit more avoidance, or more avoidance skills, would especially make sense. But as much damage as a mage? No way. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try playing more than one class or playing with someone who plays a wizard. I have a scout who duo's with a mage, gonna be swashbuckler/wizard. If, with my defense, I start doing anywhere near his damage regularly, I'm going to be angry, because that's extremely unfair. Also, for more damage, I'd have to give up defense; no thanks. I really wish everyone would experience each class, because then they might not be so hasty to say "my class sucks buff it!" or "the other class is overpowered nerf it!"</DIV> Message Edited by neriana on 07-12-2005 12:53 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> YES THEY SHOULD LOL.... im gona be frank and hoest here, mages and scouts take about the same damage, close enough that it's gona gona matter much, and if your worried about your scout loosing defense, go play a fighter, they are more defensively orriented and i think you will be much happier. out of combat utility DOES NOT WARRENT A LOWER COMBAT DAMAGE RATING [Removed for Content]...... It's like saying Joe_bob can travel the world in the blink of an eye, he shouldnt know how to fight because he knows how to travel!! Scouts do opposit damage from amges, they do physical damage. mages do amgical damage. they shoudl be equill but when fighting, some mobs are more magic or physical immmune. Having a mix of Mage and scout in group assures your ready for either. Be honest, scouts and mages, depending on class, have about same utility. IMO 2/3's of the mage archetype has more utility than 2/3's of the scout archetype. Summoners and predators are the worst for utility in this game if your going by the ability to make an impact on a fight though your buffs and enhancments. Bards and sorcerors and enchanters are good at that currently. Evac is not a combat utility. It is a added bonus you might say as a get out if Sh*t free card, but it wont help you wina fight, just make loosing it not so painfull :smileywink: If a skill cant help you win a fight, then it should not be listed amoung the "utility" list for a class. Enough said lol. Why would scouts want more defense when they are mento to be the offensive Physical classes? You should never expect to "tank" as a scout, with exception of rogue class, scouts dont get taunts, and why a rouge class gets taunts i dont know..has allways eluded me (unless it was in conjuction with a auto riposte skill that you could taunt, gain aggro, riposte a few blows, then that taunt spell would greatly lower your aggro, that would be awsome!) and the armor is truely only good for taking one hit accedentaly if mob turns on you (which you will more than likely die in a raid situation) and to compensate for being near the mob wher eyou might get a AOE hit. I have a Ranger, i take hits with desent crafted armor only slightly above my mage counter parts (about 25% mitigation i think, maby more, my mage had 15% or so without focusing on defensive armor) as it stands my mage has about 45% avoidance and my scout has 55% or less. It's not a ground braking advantage. A priest using their buffs has better mitigation, hp, and avoidance than my scout. And finaly...i have palyed nearly every class in this game, and i have seen the great uneveness of it all on a first hand basis. any clas si havent played, my other friend has (he plays FP toons more, im Q only), and it is my overall conclusion that scouts have more defense then magesbut not enough of a advantage to warrent differnet damage ratings, here is a real game example. CH raid for ghoul bane, going desent but someone (...me) aggros a ^^^ x4 mob. I get hit, and loose 80% of my life, but im fast with my fingers and rooted it just as i got it, and steped back, and kept it rooted the whole fight. 38 warlock, and i dont have perma-root Boney Grasp yet, i was using my level 19 root, Icey Manacles for CC. In that same raid, a Assassin happend to get aggro, one hit sent him to 25%, and he had nothing to do but stand there and die (no running around in raids remeebr, let tanks try to rebuild aggro) and died in the next hit. You can judge that as you will, but personaly i award myself the defensive point in that fight. Mages and scouts can have same exact DPS on a normal mob, but when raiding comes around, or hard grouped mobs, there needs to be stratagy where magic is important sometimes and then sometimes when physical damage has the uperhand. If you think defense between mages and scouts is messed up, lok at clerics vs other heaing classes :smileywink: if you gave thema taunt they would be the uber tanks of eq2 lol...jk ... but the mitigation they have over my druid's light armor is astoundingly helpfull in both solo and groups. My druid's light leather armor has no instance where it would make him more benefical thena cleric, and the cleric pays no price for this boost in defense. My druid doesnt dodge better, yet he still get's hit more when soloing/grouped/raiding. A Cleric in fully decked out rare armor can pass up a mitigation tank in normal armor, for no avoidance loss or any negative repercussions of having high mitigation. Im not saying to NERF scouts or cleric, but im saying give the other classes a possitive effect from their gear upgrades. A cleric in average heavy armor can tank a mob vs my druid in best leather armor taning a mob will allways outlast me. Anyone wearing light armor should get an avoidance boost along with their small mitigation boost. Heavy armor should lower avoidance for sake of mitigation. Medium armor should be the normal middleman. What im trying to get at is if i pay 30g for my good quality light armor to be less effective for someone who pays say 4g for his set of cruder quality heavy armor, that is not balanced. Anyway i got off topic. Your view is that scouts should be made more like fighters by increasing their defensive attriubtes to a sub par brawler avoidance levels and have mitigation higher than that of a brawler while having slightly higher dps output that a brawler but not having anywhere near touching mage dps rankings? then why woudl anyone make a scout at all? Assassin that isnt deadly? A rogue that tries to protect his friends from visous blows? Im sorry but your logic of a higher defense and weaker offense scout is pure insanity. And as a closing note, it's not unfair if you do same damage as your mage friend overall, but it is unfair if your both allways do same damage as eachother on every mob in the game, you should be stronger than him on mobs that have weak physical resists but strong magical resits and vice versa he should outdamage you on mobs with high physical defense but weak magical defense. It's a balanced system wher ewhen one rocks the other doesnt, and on some mobs you should both comeout about average. Your classes complement eachother in damage roles. Toodles!

Talonis

07-13-2005, 09:10 AM

You have some very imaginative ideas on raiding, some of them quite interesting and well thought. I doubt it would be easy to code such dynamic mobs and encounters and some of the drastic changes you suggest. But fun to read and discuss anyhoo. That said, I haven't heard one compelling reason why mage and scout DPS should be equal. Balance you say? Alright, let's talk balance then. As a warlock, I humbly enjoy being a top notch damage dealer and.............that is it. In a raid or out of a raid. That is all I can do. Damage. You propose a scout have equal damage in raid situations; 'physical damage based'; while the mage does 'magical' based. So what kind of damage is the 'phalanx' group doing in your world? Physical. This where your balance falls to pieces. No healer group is doing as much damage as the 'phalanx' or tank group, they are......uh......healing. So you have 2 groups doing 'physical' damage and 1 doing 'magical' damage. Bye bye balance. You obviously have a scout toon that is suffering from some serious raid parse log envy. You don't get my damage. It is all I have. It is my class defining trait. You don't get to dump the insane damage I dump in raids, and then evac to the zone in, run across a zone with a speed buff, and kite a mob with your ranged weapon, and safely disarm the trap on the chest it drops. No freaking way. Be happy with doing a bit less damage than me and do the rest all you want. <div></div>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-13-2005, 11:04 AM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GLScooby wrote: You have some very imaginative ideas on raiding, some of them quite interesting and well thought. I doubt it would be easy to code such dynamic mobs and encounters and some of the drastic changes you suggest. But fun to read and discuss anyhoo. That said, I haven't heard one compelling reason why mage and scout DPS should be equal. Balance you say? Alright, let's talk balance then. As a warlock, I humbly enjoy being a top notch damage dealer and.............that is it. In a raid or out of a raid. That is all I can do. Damage. You propose a scout have equal damage in raid situations; 'physical damage based'; while the mage does 'magical' based. So what kind of damage is the 'phalanx' group doing in your world? Physical. This where your balance falls to pieces. No healer group is doing as much damage as the 'phalanx' or tank group, they are......uh......healing. So you have 2 groups doing 'physical' damage and 1 doing 'magical' damage. Bye bye balance. You obviously have a scout toon that is suffering from some serious raid parse log envy. You don't get my damage. It is all I have. It is my class defining trait. You don't get to dump the insane damage I dump in raids, and then evac to the zone in, run across a zone with a speed buff, and kite a mob with your ranged weapon, and safely disarm the trap on the chest it drops. No freaking way. Be happy with doing a bit less damage than me and do the rest all you want. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I have a 38 warlock and i can tell you we do add a heck of a lot more than just damage that predators currently cant add. 250+ group power buff. That alone gives us a tremendous boost, a lot can be done with 250 extra power, and our +intel and str and poison and (i think) disease buff isnt a good thing we add besides damage? Ok then, ask yourself this. What has the Predator scout class sacrificed to do good damage? any form of buffing other than trivial self buffs? correct! In the games current, pre-revamp state, Look at a predators skill list. No . Group. Buffs. Nothing. Zilch. Neit. Nada. <im outa words now lol>. None. Currently, a Warlock can add enough power and resist to a raid to be wanted for something more than just their high damage, which will become more common place after revamp hopefully, i dont want to blow summoners damage clear out of the water, i just want at most a modest 10% leed if they are using DPS pet in shorter fights, and to come about even on long fights like raids, even giving them the slight lead in longer fights realy, and i want enchanters maby about 20% less damage than me, and about 90% of my damage in a longer durration raid fight, and i want enchanters to beable to increase other player's CA/Spell damage by 10-20%, so they actually do icnrease the groups damage by a messurable ammount. Soerceror's should be the best and that good, fast damage, and brake even or even be beatin by a marathon damage dealer like a summoner. Sorceror's didnt choose to improve in their CC, minon control, or resist debuffing, but rather focus on their damage, and that is the exact same choice predators make. They dont choose to use songs to improve their CC and group buffing, nor did they choose Rogue to lower enemies defenses greatly and have the ability to do some CC and masterfull debuffing ability, they choose the direct life of a damage dealing Predator. Dont compete with them, your on different scales but in the same position. You can blast a goblin in a full suit of amror with ease as a predator will have touble to land a good strike, but on a mage goblin, you will ahve trouble braking it's magical defenses while the predator will slice it's thoute. Just because in other games magic has allways usualy = top dps, doesnt mean this game has to. And to your comment on : "You don't get to dump the insane damage I dump in raids, and then evac to the zone in, run across a zone with a speed buff, and kite a mob with your ranged weapon, and safely disarm the trap on the chest it drops. No freaking way. Be happy with doing a bit less damage than me and do the rest all you want." Assassin replyies: "Stingy mage! You don't get to dump the insane damage in raids, and then [expect] to evac* to the zone in, buff your allies with a power buff, and kite a mob with your roots and nukes, and safely stay out of harms way in a fight. No freaking way. Be happy with doing the same damage as me and do the rest all you want." *only if wizard, and i know your not, beg devs for a warlock evac too :smileywink: , I know a ton of wizards that would give that up for compairible dps between your two classes. Do you see how easily your own comment can switch sides? I only changed 4 points of your text, added an opening "stingy mage!", my commentary added in (), and finaly [ ] added to make it flow smoother. Your points you brought up as to why a scout cant be equill to mage dps are completly interchangeable, therefore void. Personaly, i would give up any suposed defensive benefits that come form medium armor in exchange for leather amor (looks better for a scout kinda anyway, but the differance in mitigation from light to medium armor is by about 5-10% mitigation if even that) And to your rebuttle on the physical damage also being delievered by the fighting batalion, their damage would be lower than normal, they are fighting infront of the mob getting parried and dodged, they are trying to be defensive and save power for aggro skills (yes, some of which are attacks with a + hate on them) and increasing their defense which also costs them power, and most of their attack would come from auto attack sence they would be too busy allowing scouts and mages to deal their damage by keeping the mobs [Removed for Content] at them. Think of it like this: The fighting batalion is a pair of arms that reach out and seizes the mob in a firm grip of aggro. Yes, they are gripping the mob hard, causing some physical damage, but what they are realy doing is seting up the mob for the scout group to stab a big DPS filled dager in the mobs back, and the mage group to also unload some hurt from afar. The dager and the wand cant strike if the arms dont clutch the mob, and the healing core is the strength that keeps the arms grasping. And in a raid, a mage is just as fradgle as a scout or a priest, as it should be, nothing short of a fighter should take more than 1 hit from Vox directly. If you also imply that we take away any and all of the scouts defensive skills and CA, then we must intern take away from the mages as well. Is it realy worth sacrificing your roots,stuns, summoner's tank pet, mess, and any buff that adds to resists or hp that mages get? No. Scouts have their defense and "utility" if you wana call it that, and we mages have ours. Two means to an end, both traveling the same path differently, to reach a common goal. If you dont want that, then why are you even playing the game? You dont want other classes that share the Primairy function of damage dealer to beable to perform their primary function in favor of your conception of their class?</DIV>

wr4ithd0

07-13-2005, 02:24 PM

I see what you are saying as far as why scouts should equal mages in terms of DPS.....but As a scout I would have to disagree. We should have our damge near their low end of the spectrum (which I might add should be way higher than fighters). The reason is technicality, scouts can wear some armor. Not that it does ANY good whatsoever, but its the fact that we have it and thus if we equal a mages dps output the cry foul, and rightly so, as they die in 2 hits. Scouts can go a good 3 usually <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In a group none of this really matters, but soloing it is a big deal. Scouts can't solo worth a <bleep>. I like the distraction idea for scouts. We have a way to do that but its near impossible as is, especially if you are using poisons (as scouts should be doing). Point blank, I never solo any heroic mob that I dont seriously outlevel...maybe if I started buying healing potions...but still...yea...would be nice to solo an epic like some poster said above. That's just rediculous lol. And if you are wondering: lvl 50 Swashbuckler, all ebon, all ad3s.

Eyes_of_Truth

07-13-2005, 09:07 PM

First off, wr4ithd00d , tanks for not being a total [Removed for Content] like some people ( l1m3y ) <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personaly i never thought giving scouts medium armor and slightly increased hp was a good choice be developers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No matter what, if i make a ranger or an assassin, i made him for damage, high physical daamge, just like the archetype guy said when i choose scout</DIV> <DIV>"can you handle that?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"yes, i can" <click></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I signed up for nice weaponry and bow skills. On the ilse my damage from behind a mob was for the most part equill to a mage, and i had very little differance in damage taking ability vs a mage. To me, thats not enough to warrent a completely lower dps tier, to me, it means that in each tier, a mage class will be slightly better than a scout class, but the tier 1 scouts can outdamage the tier 2 mage. so it would be like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a proposed list of damage compairible to sorcerors, aka assassin doing 95% of the dps of an equilly equiped sorceror.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wiz / war 100%</DIV> <DIV>rang / assassin 95% (armor is only reasion why they dont deal exactly same as wizard, but a player can cross that 5% gap easily with skill and upgrades)</DIV> <DIV>Conj / nec 90% (with dps pets only, give them the most potient spell resist debuffs to warent the 10% lower DPS)</DIV> <DIV>swash/ brig 80% (with some very nice mitigtion debuffs added to their class to make up for the 20% loss along with single target mess)</DIV> <DIV>ill/coercer 75% (give them ability to increase group members' CA/Spell damage by 10-20%, better power regen then bards, and power drains)</DIV> <DIV>dirge/trou 70% (give them ability to increase group members' CA/Spell damage by 15-25% slightly les power regen than enchanters, and power drains)</DIV> <DIV>Bruiser 68% (giving them highest possible dps while not steping past a bard directly, but close enogh that a better equiped brawler can surpass a bard in perosnal dps [ bards group buffs will add their 30% loss of dps by increasing groups damage ]</DIV> <DIV>Monk 65% (getting ability to purge themselves of allments, no idea how effective this will be)</DIV> <DIV>Conj/nec 60%(tank pet)</DIV> <DIV>Berserker 60% (only when tanking-MG said that they would do good damage while tanking, so im guessing they are changing some things )</DIV> <DIV>Shadowknight 55% (lifetaps are probly getting a boost - again, MG mentioned them in SK area, so they should be a reliable heal hopefully)</DIV> <DIV>Paladin 40%</DIV> <DIV>Guardian 35%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats how i think they will be doing the revamp i hope. Thats compairing how much damage they do comapired to a warlck or wizard just to remind. If a wizard nukes for 1500, by the time that refreshes, and any spells they cast between, a conjuror needs to beable to do 90% of that damage when u add together all the conjurors dots pets and new nukes, as should enchanter's total damage equil to 75% of a sorceror's in that time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, thats how im hoping they compair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

Kirotaan

07-13-2005, 09:13 PM

Once again these are combat issues. You should continue these threads in the proper <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board?board.id=combat" target=_blank>forum for combat and encounters</a>. <div></div>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-13-2005, 09:32 PM

well actualy this is my compiled ideas post for anything, just happend to start it here in test forms as it pertains to future ideas i would like to see tested out (bah i know thats a long stretch, i dont know how to move it to be honest and im not sure where would be a good place as it'sa jumbalia of info on a myriad of subjects. If you tell me how and where i will <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>

Kirotaan

07-13-2005, 09:47 PM

You might be able to request the mods to move it but I am not sure if they can. Other wise for expansion type issues you should post things in the expansions forums. This forum is for things that get pushed onto test servers by the devs it's not really an open forum for what you would like to see on the test server. Devs watch specific forums that relate to their section of development. Test developers will watch this forum but only for things they have released to the test server. Your best bet to get anything looked at seriously is to take it to a forum where it applies such as combat changes in combat etc spell changes in the spell forums etc. <div></div>

Talonis

07-13-2005, 09:51 PM

<DIV> Ugh. I can't believe I am responding to this. My apologies to mages everywhere for engaging in this pointless debate. I have a 38 warlock and i can tell you we do add a heck of a lot more than just damage that predators currently cant add. 250+ group power buff. That alone gives us a tremendous boost, a lot can be done with 250 extra power, and our +intel and str and poison and (i think) disease buff isnt a good thing we add besides damage? Ok then, ask yourself this. Are you actually trying to convince me that 1 power buff and 2 nox debuffs are class defining? Do not patronize me with such silliness. Nobody is LFWarlock because of the uber buff that allows 1 or 2 more spells cast and a pair of noxious-based debuffs that benefit..........yeah, themselves. What has the Predator scout class sacrificed to do good damage? any form of buffing other than trivial self buffs? correct! In the games current, pre-revamp state, Look at a predators skill list. No . Group. Buffs. Nothing. Zilch. Neit. Nada. <im outa words now lol>. None. Currently, a Warlock can add enough power and resist to a raid to be wanted for something more than just their high damage, which will become more common place after revamp... I'd love for you to point out where mages are getting the increased power buffs and resist buffs. We are wanted for our damage. Period. Nothing else. Ziltch. Neit. Nada. <I'm outta words now> None. ....hopefully, i dont want to blow summoners damage clear out of the water, i just want at most a modest 10% leed if they are using DPS pet in shorter fights, and to come about even on long fights like raids, even giving them the slight lead in longer fights realy, and i want enchanters maby about 20% less damage than me, and about 90% of my damage in a longer durration raid fight, and i want enchanters to beable to increase other player's CA/Spell damage by 10-20%, so they actually do icnrease the groups damage by a messurable ammount. Soerceror's should be the best and that good, fast damage, and brake even or even be beatin by a marathon damage dealer like a summoner. Sorceror's didnt choose to improve in their CC, minon control, or resist debuffing, but rather focus on their damage, and that is the exact same choice predators make. ....and Preds do a TON of damage. They will continue to do so. Right in the #2 slot. All the while maintaining their excellent utility. They dont choose to use songs to improve their CC and group buffing, nor did they choose Rogue to lower enemies defenses greatly and have the ability to do some CC and masterfull debuffing ability, they choose the direct life of a damage dealing Predator. Dont compete with them, your on different scales but in the same position. You can blast a goblin in a full suit of amror with ease as a predator will have touble to land a good strike, but on a mage goblin, you will ahve trouble braking it's magical defenses while the predator will slice it's thoute. You couldn't be more wrong. I prefer caster mobs anyday over melee. They die faster. Just like me. Just because in other games magic has allways usualy = top dps, doesnt mean this game has to. And fortunately YOU don't get to decide that for me. And to your comment on : "You don't get to dump the insane damage I dump in raids, and then evac to the zone in, run across a zone with a speed buff, and kite a mob with your ranged weapon, and safely disarm the trap on the chest it drops. No freaking way. Be happy with doing a bit less damage than me and do the rest all you want." Assassin replyies: "Stingy mage! You don't get to dump the insane damage in raids, and then [expect] to evac* to the zone in, buff your allies with a power buff, and kite a mob with your roots and nukes, and safely stay out of harms way in a fight. No freaking way. Be happy with doing the same damage as me and do the rest all you want." *only if wizard, and i know your not, beg devs for a warlock evac too , I know a ton of wizards that would give that up for compairible dps between your two classes. Do you see how easily your own comment can switch sides? I only changed 4 points of your text, added an opening "stingy mage!", my commentary added in (), and finaly [ ] added to make it flow smoother. Your points you brought up as to why a scout cant be equill to mage dps are completly interchangeable, therefore void. Thank you. Name calling is typical of someone without a valid or coherent argument. Your alteration of my statement makes zero grammatical sense and proves that you have missed the point entirely. In raids, I do [alot of] damage. In the rest of Norrath, in groups or solo, I do [alot of] damage. The end. Your Pred gets to do a little less damage, has [a real emergency] functioning evac, wears medium armor, flips HO's, has ranged weapons [to safely stay out of harms way], safe fall, and disarms trapped chests.....NONE OF WHICH I HAVE. AND I DON'T WANT IT. I want to drop damage. Buckets of it. I have no utility and do not want any. That IS the tradeoff. Why don't you see that? Okay, Mr. Balance. Give up all of the above, slip into a dress and we can share the DPS throne while we get 2 shotted side-by-side. Until then, accept the trade-off, or reroll another toon. Your cries for DPS balance are not free. You have to give something up too. Personaly, i would give up any suposed defensive benefits that come form medium armor in exchange for leather amor (looks better for a scout kinda anyway, but the differance in mitigation from light to medium armor is by about 5-10% mitigation if even that) How utterly generous of you to give up medium armor. /golf_clap And to your rebuttle on the physical damage also being delievered by the fighting batalion, their damage would be lower than normal, they are fighting infront of the mob getting parried and dodged, they are trying to be defensive and save power for aggro skills (yes, some of which are attacks with a + hate on them) and increasing their defense which also costs them power, and most of their attack would come from auto attack sence they would be too busy allowing scouts and mages to deal their damage by keeping the mobs [Removed for Content] at them. Think of it like this: The fighting batalion is a pair of arms that reach out and seizes the mob in a firm grip of aggro. Yes, they are gripping the mob hard, causing some physical damage, but what they are realy doing is seting up the mob for the scout group to stab a big DPS filled dager in the mobs back, and the mage group to also unload some hurt from afar. The dager and the wand cant strike if the arms dont clutch the mob, and the healing core is the strength that keeps the arms grasping. Way to rally the fighters to your cause. Hear that tanks? Your damage will be "lower than normal". Your attacks don't count. Hopefully, that "lower than normal" damage won't get you killed soloing in the rest of the world. Please....just pull the mob, hit autoattack, swing your weapon to keep the mob busy, and push the taunt button repeatedly. Thanks. We got the rest covered. The whole "dag(g)er and wand" thing, dontcha know? You're just here to be the "arms". And in a raid, a mage is just as fradgle as a scout or a priest, as it should be, nothing short of a fighter should take more than 1 hit from Vox directly. Huh? What does that statement mean? I'm well aware that I am considerably more fragile than an Ebon Vanguard-wearing cleric, but thanks for pointing that out.<working as intended> <whew> If you also imply [and I didn't] that we take away any and all of the scouts defensive skills and CA, then we must intern take away from the mages as well. Please! Don't take away the wizzie evac spell that takes a fortnight to cast. Anything but that! Say it ain't so! The humanity! So since you claim power and stat buffs are utility that deserves to be taken from me, then once again Mr. Balance, take them from everyone...or better yet, make it the same buff! Yeah. Make everyone have the same spells. Brilliant. Is it realy worth sacrificing your roots,stuns, summoner's tank pet, mess, and any buff that adds to resists or hp that mages get? No. Scouts have their defense and "utility" if you wana call it that, and we mages have ours. How foolish of me to imply scouts have "utility". Yeah, I crossed the line on that one. Please stop telling me that a power buff and nox debuff are utility. Two means to an end, both traveling the same path differently, to reach a common goal. If you dont want that, then why are you even playing the game? You dont want other classes that share the Primairy function of damage dealer to beable to perform their primary function in favor of your conception of their class? I play the game because I like it. I like the fact that I must choose my class, skills, equipment and encounters based upon my playstyle and the skill with which I use them. I like the fact there are programmed pros and programmed cons with each class, whether or not they are intended that way. It forces me to get better at playing my toon while dealing with those pros and cons. If you are so upset with how unbalanced the classes are, why do YOU play? Besides your imaginative raid senarios, you've wasted the rest of this thread calling for: A) Elevating the Pred class to god-like status (your direct argument) or B) Calling for a few whacks of the nerf bat to mages (your indirect argument) I hope option A never happens, and you gotta stand in a pretty long and distinguished line for option B, but that will eventually happen if history truly does repeat itself. </DIV>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-14-2005, 12:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GLScooby wrote: <DIV> Ugh. I can't believe I am responding to this. My apologies to mages everywhere for engaging in this pointless debate. Appology accepted, im a mage. I have a 38 warlock and i can tell you we do add a heck of a lot more than just damage that predators currently cant add. 250+ group power buff. That alone gives us a tremendous boost, a lot can be done with 250 extra power, and our +intel and str and poison and (i think) disease buff isnt a good thing we add besides damage? Ok then, ask yourself this. Are you actually trying to convince me that 1 power buff and 2 nox debuffs are class defining? Do not patronize me with such silliness. Nobody is LFWarlock because of the uber buff that allows 1 or 2 more spells cast and a pair of noxious-based debuffs that benefit..........yeah, themselves. I consider +400 power and +150 or so hp along with a ton of resists a decient asset to any group or raid. If you dont, then simply dont waste your concentration on them (which hey, thats all we can use our concentraition on isnt it) What has the Predator scout class sacrificed to do good damage? any form of buffing other than trivial self buffs? correct! In the games current, pre-revamp state, Look at a predators skill list. No . Group. Buffs. Nothing. Zilch. Neit. Nada. . None. Currently, a Warlock can add enough power and resist to a raid to be wanted for something more than just their high damage, which will become more common place after revamp... I'd love for you to point out where mages are getting the increased power buffs and resist buffs. We are wanted for our damage. Period. Nothing else. Ziltch. Neit. Nada. None. I never said that. You inncorrectly inferanced that. "which will become more common place after revamp..." was refering to our damage, which is higher than any other mage now, but people will be dealing alot closer to our damage with revamp, and if that happens <wich i hope it does> our buffs and secondairy abilities will be an important factor in groups choosing Warlock vs Scout class. All mages have group buffs that add some hp, alot of power, and resists. Only 2/6 scouts can perform group buffs. To me that seems to factor in that scout's should deal more damage, but i would perfer them to have 5% less damage than the mage class counterpart. Like a Predator doing 5% less damage than a Sorceror, but be able to get that extra 5% by PAYING for poisons to come out even. ....hopefully, i dont want to blow summoners damage clear out of the water, i just want at most a modest 10% leed if they are using DPS pet in shorter fights, and to come about even on long fights like raids, even giving them the slight lead in longer fights realy, and i want enchanters maby about 20% less damage than me, and about 90% of my damage in a longer durration raid fight, and i want enchanters to beable to increase other player's CA/Spell damage by 10-20%, so they actually do icnrease the groups damage by a messurable ammount. Soerceror's should be the best and that good, fast damage, and brake even or even be beatin by a marathon damage dealer like a summoner. Sorceror's didnt choose to improve in their CC, minon control, or resist debuffing, but rather focus on their damage, and that is the exact same choice predators make. ....and Preds do a TON of damage. They will continue to do so. Right in the #2 slot. All the while maintaining their excellent utility. I agree predators should not be above you (equaly equiped and without poison), but they should be close enough for player skill and a bit of minor upgradeing can bring them even or ahead of alsightly less upgraded mage. Like a predator using adept1's and poisons should outdamage a mage using only app4's. One person is putting more mony and focus into their character's devolopement and this should show. And dont babble about how "well than any rich person can become uber and twink", everyone has same opportunity to make money in this game, not counting the idiotic Station Exchange. They dont choose to use songs to improve their CC and group buffing, nor did they choose Rogue to lower enemies defenses greatly and have the ability to do some CC and masterfull debuffing ability, they choose the direct life of a damage dealing Predator. Dont compete with them, your on different scales but in the same position. You can blast a goblin in a full suit of amror with ease as a predator will have touble to land a good strike, but on a mage goblin, you will ahve trouble braking it's magical defenses while the predator will slice it's thoute. You couldn't be more wrong. I prefer caster mobs anyday over melee. They die faster. Just like me. Which is why hopefully the combat revamp will change this. I want ANY mage class <mobs get everything that happens to players remeber> that is master of a type of element to have a ward that can limit the damage done by that element on them. Give Warlocks a high poison/disease self-only ward that would absorb say 1000 poison and disease damage, giving them incredible SPELL defense vs their own elements. Fire/Ice for wizards, Magic/Mental for enchanters, and Magic/Fire for Conjuror's and Magic/Disease for Necromancers. Melee attacks would bypass this ward's damage, meaning scouts could rip up a caster like they still currently do, but this limits caster vs caster of the same type. Just because in other games magic has allways usualy = top dps, doesnt mean this game has to. And fortunately YOU don't get to decide that for me. You are 100% RIGHT. I dont deside anything that happens in this game, but i can hope and comment on suggestions to my heart's contient. I can also qutoe the people who do make these decisions, and provide facts that i find. That is called debate. And to your comment on : "You don't get to dump the insane damage I dump in raids, and then evac to the zone in, run across a zone with a speed buff, and kite a mob with your ranged weapon, and safely disarm the trap on the chest it drops. No freaking way. Be happy with doing a bit less damage than me and do the rest all you want." Assassin replyies: "Stingy mage! You don't get to dump the insane damage in raids, and then [expect] to evac* to the zone in, buff your allies with a power buff, and kite a mob with your roots and nukes, and safely stay out of harms way in a fight. No freaking way. Be happy with doing the same damage as me and do the rest all you want." *only if wizard, and i know your not, beg devs for a warlock evac too , I know a ton of wizards that would give that up for compairible dps between your two classes. Do you see how easily your own comment can switch sides? I only changed 4 points of your text, added an opening "stingy mage!", my commentary added in (), and finaly [ ] added to make it flow smoother. Your points you brought up as to why a scout cant be equill to mage dps are completly interchangeable, therefore void. Thank you. Name calling is typical of someone without a valid or coherent argument. Your alteration of my statement makes zero grammatical sense and proves that you have missed the point entirely. Hahaha, that is called roleplay, an Assassin from the streets of Freeport wouldnt go "Pardon me, mr mage, but i would most certainly have to disagree and provide a rebuttle to your statement!", they arnt that fancy, a two word introduction like "Pretencious fool!" or "Defileing Mages!!" are saysing they would use. And "stingy" is hardly ammong the most severe of insults. I could think up a world of more insulting terms than stingy, but none of which would be appropreate for these forms. "Your alteration of my statement makes zero grammatical sense and proves that you have missed the point entirely." Read it with the words in [ ] added in, and ignore my side comments in the ( ) as i instructed and it makes perfect gramical sence: "You don't get to dump the insane damage in raids, and then expect to evac* to the zone in, buff your allies with a power buff, and kite a mob with your roots and nukes, and safely stay out of harms way in a fight. No freaking way. Be happy with doing the same damage as me and do the rest all you want." compair that word for work with yours: "You don't get to dump the insane damage I dump in raids, and then evac to the zone in, run across a zone with a speed buff, and kite a mob with your ranged weapon, and safely disarm the trap on the chest it drops. No freaking way. Be happy with doing a bit less damage than me and do the rest all you want." In raids, I do [alot of] damage. In the rest of Norrath, in groups or solo, I do [alot of] damage. The end. Your Pred gets to do a little less damage, has [a real emergency] functioning evac, wears medium armor, flips HO's, has ranged weapons [to safely stay out of harms way], safe fall, and disarms trapped chests.....NONE OF WHICH I HAVE. Wizards also have a "real" functioning evac spell. Ask the devs for one, i know MY warlock has. And that is pointless anyway, escape wont help you win a battle, just saves repair cost and time. Now let me change this statment into a scout's version: "In raids, I should do [alot of] damage. In the rest of Norrath, in groups or solo, I do ok damage. The end. Your Sorceror gets to do a little more damage, has [a real emergency] functioning stun/root, has buffs for the group, [ flips HO's *]has ranged spell [to safely stay out of harms way], safe fall, and disarms trapped chests.....NONE OF WHICH I HAVE. * yes, flipping HO is the only scout only thing in this game, just like our track, yes, it can be usfull, but unless HO are made more powerfull and given a better focus, then no, it is not worth a crappy damage dealing ability. And it doesnt always change the HO fyi. And yes we get safefalll, also usless in almsot every single combat situation in the game, and brawlers share this ability with us. Disarming traped chests nolonger matters, they cant kill you anymore. At most, if you havea priest in the group that could cure the annoying snare / disease traps, they are trivial. If stationary, random traps are added to dungeons just to amke our disarm skill usfull inplace of our damage, im sur eyou would gripe about how you now have to be carefull when going though a dungeon for once. AND I DON'T WANT IT. I want to drop damage. Buckets of it. I have no utility and do not want any. That IS the tradeoff. Why don't you see that? Defense? I DON'T WANT IT. I want to drop damage. Buckets of it. I have some utility that is menaingless to combat, and do not want any. That IS the trade off. why dont YOU see that? If i wanted defense i would ahve gone fighter. If i wanted combat utility i would have gone rouge or bard. That is my trade off for my damage. "I have no utility ", what you mean is i have no OUT OF COMBAT utility that doesnt imparct the corse of a fight one smidgen (hehe i got to use the word smidgen today :smileyvery-happy: ) Whether you consider it combat utility or not, your buffs affect the flow of combat. A group with your buffs will have more power, hp, and defense vs poison or disease than a group with a Ranger/Assassin. Okay, Mr. Balance. Give up all of the above, slip into a dress and we can share the DPS throne while we get 2 shotted side-by-side. Until then, accept the trade-off, or reroll another toon. Your cries for DPS balance are not free. You have to give something up too. Just as you never wanted your buffs, i never wanted medium armor. Im here for damage with my blades and my bow. From the time i click the "attack" buttion to the time the fight ends, my safefall, disarm trap, (if i dont get hit like i shouldnt) armor, avoidance didnt help AT ALL. You fail to realize that combat and out of combat utility are on a completely different level of imporantce. Breeze = combat utility and out of combat utillity, is active all times, and provides a helpfull service at all times. Defense (spell or physical) debuffs are combat utility, worthless when not fighting. Escape, while it can be used in combat, does not aid in combat, there for is a out of combat (or a get the heck outa combat) ability. Taunting is a in combat utility thats worthless out of combat. Disarm trap is a out of combat ability. Mes is a combat ability. Personaly, i would give up any suposed defensive benefits that come form medium armor in exchange for leather amor (looks better for a scout kinda anyway, but the differance in mitigation from light to medium armor is by about 5-10% mitigation if even that) How utterly generous of you to give up medium armor. /golf_clap /violin <mock sympathy for your damage-only non buff using warlock only being played at 3/4 th's of his full potiental> And to your rebuttle on the physical damage also being delievered by the fighting batalion, their damage would be lower than normal, they are fighting infront of the mob getting parried and dodged, they are trying to be defensive and save power for aggro skills (yes, some of which are attacks with a + hate on them) and increasing their defense which also costs them power, and most of their attack would come from auto attack sence they would be too busy allowing scouts and mages to deal their damage by keeping the mobs [Removed for Content] at them. Think of it like this: The fighting batalion is a pair of arms that reach out and seizes the mob in a firm grip of aggro. Yes, they are gripping the mob hard, causing some physical damage, but what they are realy doing is seting up the mob for the scout group to stab a big DPS filled dager in the mobs back, and the mage group to also unload some hurt from afar. The dager and the wand cant strike if the arms dont clutch the mob, and the healing core is the strength that keeps the arms grasping. Way to rally the fighters to your cause. Hear that tanks? Your damage will be "lower than normal". Your attacks don't count. Hopefully, that "lower than normal" damage won't get you killed soloing in the rest of the world. Please....just pull the mob, hit autoattack, swing your weapon to keep the mob busy, and push the taunt button repeatedly. Thanks. We got the rest covered. The whole "dag(g)er and wand" thing, dontcha know? You're just here to be the "arms". I have a fighter characters too, a 34 Paladin and a 24 monk. What are fighters if not what they signed up to be on the IOR? "spend most of your time be defending your allies" "can you handle that", why yes, i can <click> Says to me that a fighters to be a shield (offensive fighters are shields with big [Removed for Content] spikes!!) that let mages and scouts and healers perform their amazing feats, only possibly becaue a fighter is keeping them safe. Without a proper fighter defense, and a strong healing core keeping that defense strong, the offensive archetypes would die instantly. Berserker, SK, and Bruiser should beable to do good damage, but not pass up a equally geared scout or mage, and doesnt mean they have to have low daamge, it just means their damage can exceed to limit of their achetype. A berserker using adept1 vs a bard using app4 solo, the berserker should have higher DPS out put everytime. Fighters should be wanted for their awsome defending ability, and their decient offensive ability(or healing ability for paladins), not the inverse, which is awsome offense for weak defense, becuase thats the scout and mage archetype word for word. And in a raid, a mage is just as fradgle as a scout or a priest, as it should be, nothing short of a fighter should take more than 1 hit from Vox directly. Huh? What does that statement mean? I'm well aware that I am considerably more fragile than an Ebon Vanguard-wearing cleric, but thanks for pointing that out. Haha dont get me started on cleric's armor advantages over the othe 2 priest classes, it's completly unbalanced on that aspect, as the druid and shaman get less mitigation for = avoidance and hp to a cleric. I completely agree that clerics using heavyarmor should have some penalty to their avoidance for using heavt armor, or light armor needs to boost avoidance for druids, and chain needs to meet at a happy medium in the center of both for shaman. Clerics at most should survive maby 1 hit from a raid mob, and be at 10% or less life, putting them at risk of an AOE atack finsihing them off. Only a fighter should beable to surive a head on blow from a x4 50+ raid mob (or in Brawlers case, avoid it) If you also imply [and I didn't] that we take away any and all of the scouts defensive skills and CA, then we must intern take away from the mages as well. Please! Don't take away the wizzie evac spell that takes a fortnight to cast. Anything but that! Say it ain't so! The humanity! So since you claim power and stat buffs are utility that deserves to be taken from me, then once again Mr. Balance, take them from everyone...or better yet, make it the same buff! Yeah. Make everyone have the same spells. Brilliant. I dont want everyone haveing same spells, i want everyone having same overall damage:combat usefull utility balanced. Give enchanters a way to increase other people's damage in combat, like 10-20% more on each of their CA/spell abilities. That is an awsome combat utility, as your making people that do good damage even better, and your directly helping the fight. Currently, an enchanter's combat abilties are as follows: breeze = awsome and usefull, mess = in most cases unuse, detremental to a group that uses AOE damage (like warlocks) Stuns (usfull except when raiding) haste (doesnt add nearly as much daamge as it needs to, because it only affects auto-attack damage and not CA/spell damage) group buffs like every other mage, and a Charm for Coercers that has some issues currently. Also, they have powerdrains which i dont thing can be used on epics becuase of an attatched stun componant. Is it realy worth sacrificing your roots,stuns, summoner's tank pet, mess, and any buff that adds to resists or hp that mages get? No. Scouts have their defense and "utility" if you wana call it that, and we mages have ours. How foolish of me to imply scouts have "utility". Yeah, I crossed the line on that one. Please stop telling me that a power buff and nox debuff are utility. Scouts have wonderful utility, outside of battle that is. Once the battle starts, Predator class branch of the scout archetype has chosen to not have any in-combat utility. They leave that role to bards and rogues. Predators insted choose to focus strictly on damage, just like the majority of Sorceror's out there. Two means to an end, both traveling the same path differently, to reach a common goal. If you dont want that, then why are you even playing the game? You dont want other classes that share the Primairy function of damage dealer to beable to perform their primary function in favor of your conception of their class? I play the game because I like it. I like the fact that I must choose my class, skills, equipment and encounters based upon my playstyle and the skill with which I use them. I like the fact there are programmed pros and programmed cons with each class, whether or not they are intended that way. It forces me to get better at playing my toon while dealing with those pros and cons. As do i my friend, I want to play a strictly murderous Ranger that doesnt care about his group mate's stats, who just stalk his prey and deal massive physical damage, and with the aid of poison, be tied for top damage in the game, co-existing with warlocks and wizards and assassins, all of whom have made the same no-combat-utility choice I have made. I love pros and cons to my classes, and to me, having nil-combat utility in exchange for tieing the with the best damage dealers when even having to use my money to brake even (buying poisons) when they dont, is a fair trade off. It forces me to try to group with classes that are filled withcombat utilities that can improve my class, and forces me to get better at my class while i also am dealing with my pros and cons. Pro to fighters is they have increable defensive skill in comparison to non fighters. Their con is they wont beable to surpass the other 3 classes in healing, damageing, CC, or debuffing. But they can come varry carry close, close enough to overcame a player with lesser skill and upgrades. If you are so upset with how unbalanced the classes are, why do YOU play? Besides your imaginative raid senarios, you've wasted the rest of this thread calling for: A) Elevating the Pred class to god-like status (your direct argument) So mages are gods of damage now are we? Thats awsome!:smileywink: ....no... my direct argument (im teling this to you directly so you cant change this statment around, this is my direct argument to this post) Scouts should have damage comparitive to 5% less than their counter part mage. To clerify, Sorceror / Predator, Summoner / Rogue, Encahnter / Bard. Each mage does 5% more damage than their paired scout, but each scout has the option to get that 5% though poisons (or instroments for bards case). This means that both scout and mage should equally viable for damage dealing roles, and each has their own set of other combat abilities that they provide for group with as well. The more extra combat utility the class has, the less direct, personal damage will this class deal. Sorcerors and Predators give up the majority of their combat abilitiesin exchange for the higest DPS ranking tier. Summoner and Rogue are in the middle, each having something that they bring to combat (spell resist debuffs for summoner, physical mitigation debuffs for rogue). Enchanters and Bards both sacrifice much of their personal DPS for the sake of improving other classes DPS though powerfull group buffs (hopeing the devs add a +% to CA/Spell for enchanters and bards). Fighters should have the best defense in the game and no other classes should be able to match (Tank pets for summoners should be solo mob tanking able only, and not be functionable for heroic mobs), and in exchange for this, fighters can not surpass any equally equiped character from the mage/scout/priest groups in either healing, CC, damage, or debuffing, but they can come very close in some instances (Berserker, SK, Brawlers should nearly match a enchanter or bards personal DPS). Priestsshould be under the same rules, no mitigation, avoidance, or hp highger than that of a fighter, but again, they can come close enough to pass them if player skill and equipment is varried. That is my full argument. Verbatum. or B) Calling for a few whacks of the nerf bat to mages (your indirect argument) I in no way want any class to be nerfed into an unplayable or un enjoyable state, but some classes do need a down scaling in power to bring them in check with the rest of the classes, just like some classes need an upscaling in damage. The devs could just leave some classes alone and icnrease everyone else, but then thats just more work for a postitional nerf still. I hope option A never happens, and you gotta stand in a pretty long and distinguished line for option B, but that will eventually happen if history truly does repeat itself.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> why do YOU play? I play, my friend, because i enjoy playing with my friends in a different world, amking new friends, laughing, telling jokes, putting a well placed arrow in an orcs skull, blasting that orc's cusin with a ball of dark poison, and just plain and simple to have a good time. If i think something is unbalanced, i will voice my opions. I want this game to by far surpass it's predessor and competing MMO's like WOW. I want new and innovative ideas that make for a balanced playing experiance that is still diverse enough to not be considered "4 classes at 50', but rather 4 rolles at 50 that 6 sub-classes can each fill. I dont want some classes to go unplayed for a silly reasion as "they dont do the same damage as X class because they have this out of combat ability" I hope i have cleared up some of your concerns here friend. PS: as a side note, i ahd to retype this whole thing because of a internet connection error, but i would gladly type it again, just to attempt to prove my stand point.

Talonis

07-14-2005, 02:51 AM

This game is not just combat. It's not just raiding. Your Pred has excellent in combat damage and really good out of combat utility. My mage has incredible in combat damage and zero out of combat utility. That is the balance. You have to buy poisons to make your in combat damage increase. What is available to me to compensate for my lack of out of combat utility? Spirit Totems or a Horse. I can't get any of the rest of those character defining abilities from a broker. That is what makes them character defining. Assimilate this or don't. What's this? "I in no way want any class to be nerfed into an unplayable or un ejoyable state, but some classes do need a down scaling in power to bring them in check with the rest of the classes, just like some classes need an upscaling in damage. The devs could just leave some classes alone and icnrease everyone else, but then that's just more work for a positional nerf still." Aw dang it. I been had. The whole time this has been nothing more than another nerf request. Go back to WoW and take your nerf bat with you. <div></div>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-14-2005, 03:26 AM

<DIV>This was in no way a nerf request at any point form or fashion, and had I said "Raise everyone elses damage up and leave fighters where they are, but raise them higher than fighters" then would would still say that is a possitional nerf. And no, WOW is too childishly animed for my taiste, though some enjoy that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I put that in there as gently as i could. No reason a berserker with equill gear should out damage a scout or mage, but they can come dang well close. THAT was my point. And unless all mages and scouts suddenly shoot up to 300 DPS and leave berserker in the 200 area, you would probly hate me for that too, becuase theywouldnt increase with everyone else. There realy is no way of saying it, they are gona lower your power to be the ammong the highest dps and moderate tanking ability to a very good damage for a fighter class (damage uses to gain aggro where the more defnesive fighters get more taunts). You can be the highest daamge of the fighter branch, as long as you dont enter mage and scout range, thats about the only way i can put it mildly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on 07-13-2005 04:27 PM

neria

07-14-2005, 03:01 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote: YES THEY SHOULD LOL.... im gona be frank and hoest here, mages and scouts take about the same damage, close enough that it's gona gona matter much, and if your worried about your scout loosing defense, go play a fighter, they are more defensively orriented and i think you will be much happier. <HR> I do play a fighter. I have multiple alt's. And I'm quite happy, thank you. And you're simply wrong, mages and scouts do not have the same defense. Maybe they both die equally quickly when hit by a raid boss. The game is not all raiding. <HR> out of combat utility DOES NOT WARRENT A LOWER COMBAT DAMAGE RATING [Removed for Content]...... <HR> I happen to think it does, thanks. <HR> It's like saying Joe_bob can travel the world in the blink of an eye, he shouldnt know how to fight because he knows how to travel!! <HR> Nope, not "not know how to fight". Scouts fight extremely well, PLUS they have OK defense, PLUS they have out-of-combat and in-combat utility. Bards have some of the very best in-combat utility in the game, in fact. <HR> Scouts do opposit damage from amges, they do physical damage. mages do amgical damage. they shoudl be equill but when fighting, some mobs are more magic or physical immmune. Having a mix of Mage and scout in group assures your ready for either. <HR> Again, mages can't take damage. <HR> Be honest, scouts and mages, depending on class, have about same utility. IMO 2/3's of the mage archetype has more utility than 2/3's of the scout archetype. Summoners and predators are the worst for utility in this game if your going by the ability to make an impact on a fight though your buffs and enhancments. Bards and sorcerors and enchanters are good at that currently. <HR> Honestly, nope, they don't. "Utility" in a fight? You want that too? Maybe you should play a bard, then. <HR> Evac is not a combat utility. It is a added bonus you might say as a get out if Sh*t free card, but it wont help you wina fight, just make loosing it not so painfull :smileywink: If a skill cant help you win a fight, then it should not be listed amoung the "utility" list for a class. Enough said lol. <HR> Making losing not so painful is AWESOME. And fighting uber mobs is not the entire game. Do you just stand there and whap at the same mob the entire time, not explore, not quest? Further, flipping HO's can absolutely save you in a fight. By the way, what would you list abilities that help you win the game, but not the fight, as? Completely useless junk? <HR> Why would scouts want more defense when they are mento to be the offensive Physical classes? You should never expect to "tank" as a scout, with exception of rogue class, scouts dont get taunts, and why a rouge class gets taunts i dont know..has allways eluded me (unless it was in conjuction with a auto riposte skill that you could taunt, gain aggro, riposte a few blows, then that taunt spell would greatly lower your aggro, that would be awsome!) and the armor is truely only good for taking one hit accedentaly if mob turns on you (which you will more than likely die in a raid situation) and to compensate for being near the mob wher eyou might get a AOE hit. <HR> Because it's fun to have variety and not just be a damage-bot. Because I don't believe that just because you say scouts are "meant to be" something (I guess because it was the way it was in EQ1) that that was written in stone at the beginning of time. Actually, if we want to go back to the origins of all of this, it's D&D, and in D&D rogues are the utility class, with some extremely good situational damage and nice defensive skills. If I wanted to be a pure damage-dealer, I'd be a mage. (Which I also am.) But as my scout, I get damage, I get utility, I get survivability, /and/ I even get to save my mage friend when he draws aggro! I'm not the very best at any of those things except utility, but I'm not greedy. Playing a scout is extremely fun. It's more complex than any other class, and that's what makes it fun. And again, raiding is not the whole game. It's a tiny part of the game, and a part I frankly don't care about one bit. <HR> I have a Ranger, i take hits with desent crafted armor only slightly above my mage counter parts (about 25% mitigation i think, maby more, my mage had 15% or so without focusing on defensive armor) as it stands my mage has about 45% avoidance and my scout has 55% or less. It's not a ground braking advantage. A priest using their buffs has better mitigation, hp, and avoidance than my scout. <HR> Yes, as a priest should, because a priest has tiny damage output. Plus, priests have defensive buffs, and they NEED to use defensive buffs to get their defense up. In other words, they need to use power. Actually, scouts have some nice buffs too. And for the party to survive, the priest has to survive. <HR> And finaly...i have palyed nearly every class in this game, and i have seen the great uneveness of it all on a first hand basis. any clas si havent played, my other friend has (he plays FP toons more, im Q only), and it is my overall conclusion that scouts have more defense then magesbut not enough of a advantage to warrent differnet damage ratings, here is a real game example. CH raid for ghoul bane, going desent but someone (...me) aggros a ^^^ x4 mob. I get hit, and loose 80% of my life, but im fast with my fingers and rooted it just as i got it, and steped back, and kept it rooted the whole fight. 38 warlock, and i dont have perma-root Boney Grasp yet, i was using my level 19 root, Icey Manacles for CC. In that same raid, a Assassin happend to get aggro, one hit sent him to 25%, and he had nothing to do but stand there and die (no running around in raids remeebr, let tanks try to rebuild aggro) and died in the next hit. You can judge that as you will, but personaly i award myself the defensive point in that fight. <HR> Raiding again. Balancing the entire game for raiding would be insane. <HR> Mages and scouts can have same exact DPS on a normal mob, but when raiding comes around, or hard grouped mobs, there needs to be stratagy where magic is important sometimes and then sometimes when physical damage has the uperhand. <HR> That actually makes a bit of sense. I'm impressed. <HR> If you think defense between mages and scouts is messed up, <HR> I don't. <HR> lok at clerics vs other heaing classes :smileywink: if you gave thema taunt they would be the uber tanks of eq2 lol...jk ... but the mitigation they have over my druid's light armor is astoundingly helpfull in both solo and groups. My druid's light leather armor has no instance where it would make him more benefical thena cleric, and the cleric pays no price for this boost in defense. My druid doesnt dodge better, yet he still get's hit more when soloing/grouped/raiding. A Cleric in fully decked out rare armor can pass up a mitigation tank in normal armor, for no avoidance loss or any negative repercussions of having high mitigation. <HR> Rare armor vs. normal armor is not a very good comparison, imo. Further, clerics don't do real damage and don't have taunts. They can pull aggro from damage-dealers by healing -- and then dying. You're also leaving out the difference in HPs. <HR> Im not saying to NERF scouts or cleric, but im saying give the other classes a possitive effect from their gear upgrades. A cleric in average heavy armor can tank a mob vs my druid in best leather armor taning a mob will allways outlast me. Anyone wearing light armor should get an avoidance boost along with their small mitigation boost. Heavy armor should lower avoidance for sake of mitigation. Medium armor should be the normal middleman. <HR> I was getting the impression you thought defense didn't matter? <HR> What im trying to get at is if i pay 30g for my good quality light armor to be less effective for someone who pays say 4g for his set of cruder quality heavy armor, that is not balanced. <HR> Wait -- now you want your druid to have as much mitigation as a templar. I'm seeing a pattern... Sure it's balanced. It's light armor vs. heavy armor, and two different classes. <HR> Anyway i got off topic. Your view is that scouts should be made more like fighters by increasing their defensive attriubtes to a sub par brawler avoidance levels and have mitigation higher than that of a brawler while having slightly higher dps output that a brawler but not having anywhere near touching mage dps rankings? then why woudl anyone make a scout at all? Assassin that isnt deadly? A rogue that tries to protect his friends from visous blows? Im sorry but your logic of a higher defense and weaker offense scout is pure insanity. <HR> No, it's not. I would like rogues to have more avoidance, but I never said I want them to tank raid mobs or to do no damage. And yes, a rogue that tries to protect her friend. People do it. It works. No, not on raid mobs, I'm going to say it again, I don't think rogues should tank raid mobs. It is much tougher for a rogue to tank at all than for a fighter (as it should be), and the only way they're going to survive anything tough is to kill it super-fast, rather than outlast it. I also said /I/ would like to be able to give up some damage for some defense -- /some/. And I'm a swashbuckler, not an assassin. These are different classes, and should not just be "scout version 1" and "scout version 1.01". I'd simply like to be able to have the choice to give up a little offense for a little defense. Different play styles happen to be enjoyable. And no, I do not want to tank like a fighter can, and I do want to keep doing nice damage. I really don't know what you've twisted what I want into in your mind, so I can't say whether what you think I want is "pure insanity" or not. <HR> And as a closing note, it's not unfair if you do same damage as your mage friend overall, but it is unfair if your both allways do same damage as eachother on every mob in the game, you should be stronger than him on mobs that have weak physical resists but strong magical resits and vice versa he should outdamage you on mobs with high physical defense but weak magical defense. It's a balanced system wher ewhen one rocks the other doesnt, and on some mobs you should both comeout about average. Your classes complement eachother in damage roles. <HR> I don't care about raid mobs. Your class should not come out the same, there is an entire GAME before raiding, and it's a long one. If in that entire game scouts did the same damage as mages, and kept all their other abilities, mages would be useless. If scouts lost those other abilities, they'd be mages. It is not "balanced" if I do the same damage but he can't wear armor and falls down dead if something looks at him funny. Making lots of enemies in the game only vulnerable to either magic or physical attacks would mess up soloing and small groups completely. Making both magic and physical attacks necessary for a raid, OK, that makes sense. Not for the entire game. In closing -- roll a warlock, you'd be a lot happier. </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>