HP/ Defense buff stacking removed on test and "Buff Management" (tm).

[Noah]

<DIV>I noticed I was no longer able to stack my four group Hp spells as a guardian.  I haven't seen any update in regards to this change.  I am not uposed to this change, actually I was one for pushing for it (phew less buffs to maintain that are all on the same timer!).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps we can get a clarification of what will stack and what wont.  IE 1 Priest hp buff, 1 mage hp buff, 1 Fighter hp buff, 1 scout (snicker) hp buff.... something like that?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also noticed some "skill increase" buffs did not stack as well.  For example Call to Battle (Increase crush/piercing/slash/parry) would not stack with a Monk buff that had increase Parry of a greater amount (causing you to lose the increase in C/P/S but gain more Parry).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With these changes coming soon I suppose...... It looks like buffs need to be "situationally" cast or they will get blocked.  I think it is time to get a better UI list of buffs on the screen so people can see what is on them and what isnt on them.  <STRONG>"Buff Management",</STRONG> as I call it, seems like it will be an important part of EQ2 and at this moment with the current UI in place, we are efficient as a Hummer is with gas milage (9mpg is not very nice). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, anyone else have a list of what is not stacking with what... besides us overpowered guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[CherobylJ]

<P>Noah</P> <P>I'd imagine all Bers spells will be similarly treated.  Just makes me get zzzzzzzzzz thinking of having to actualy manage buffs actively; didn't we have enough of this crap in EQ1 (first cast spell blocking ala COE-BSS etc all)?  Its discouraging that after 8 months of being live they consider yet another foolish modification to the game.</P> <P> </P>

[Noah]

<DIV>Buff stacking is the root of a serious problem of challenge in the game.  It really makes it almost impossible to create challenging encounters at the 50th lvl range due to how skills vs mob lvl works.  You dont see this as much in exp groups but it causes for huge trivialization at the raid game.  As far as the UI mods, it would just be nice to put a little order to the choas of 30 buffs on the screen...  not so much the stacking optimization.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although it is over 1/2 a year into release, I think the EQ2 dev team is just now really learning their own game and making the adjustments (much like eq1 did) so in the long run changes will not be needed and overall the game will successful.  A big change now would be a lot better than constant little changes over and over for the next 5 years.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>As a fury my hp buff hasnt stacked with a clerics like forever guess it aint broken but intended now?</P> <P>Guess spell balancing has begun lol I fool myself easily <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>A big change now would be a lot better than constant little changes over and over for the next 5 years.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Preach on, Brother Noah!  Seriously, that about sums it up right there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Corv]

I do recognize that some types of buffs can be stacked far too well.  (e.g Defense)  However, instead of placing hard stacking limits like those described by the original poster in the game, I'd rather see diminishing returns applied.  e.g.  Say you have three classes that can buff defense by 15, 10, and 5 respectively.  Currently, when all cast their defence buffs everyone gets 30 defense.  However, if diminishing returns were applied, then you could have a total defense higher than the strongest defense buff, but not as high as the total sum.   (e.g. Instead of 30 defense being applied, you might see only 22ish)  This would allow all buffers in a group to contribute and would not lead to situations where buffing classes are turned down because their best buffs are already covered and they won't actually be able to add anything to the group.   About the worst possible thing they could do is set things up so that buffs of lesser potency can prevent higher potency buffs from landing or even overwrite them.  (as happened in EQ1)  That kind of crap spaghetti code is flat-out unacceptable.  <div></div>

[jwdanie]

Why not just do it the easy way and have the best buff effect take precedence over the others?  For example, if two buffs overlap, on that raises crush/slash/pierce/parry by 10 and another that raises parry by 15, why can't the end result just be to raise crush/slash/pierce by 10 and parry by 15?  Very nice and easy to do from a programming perspective, makes sense from an rp perspective (the stronger benefit outweighs the weaker) and is very easy to manage for the buffers, since you always just cast your buff and don't worry about it because it can't hurt anyone.

[SirDra]

I feel these abilites are what make us a tank. Are tanks not suppose to have superior hit points and defence over other classes? Hence the name "tank"... What ever i hope they dont screw us over to bad. Also be ready for the strength nerf. Less dps, hp, and defence for the win. What next, why dont they give us one taunt as well? <p>Message Edited by SirDrake on <span class=date_text>06-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 AM</span>

[Mig]

Again, this is surely what they intended from the outset. This game was designed around tiers. It makes no sense that spells and skills you used at level 10, 20, and 30 are still viable at level 50th. Only with combat spells and skills do you see this paradigm broken. Everything else, mobs, gear, tradeskills, quests all fit this logic. It's sloppy coding that's all. Remember this is part of the huge combat balancing that is incoming. I'd rather have 1 or 2 hp buffs at level 50 that add 1500 health, rather than having to cast 4-5 buffs that do the same thing. Less clutter in my UI, and less time to buff for fights. This is a good thing all. Makes the game more streamlined. Now when this all shakes out, I'm sure they will have to rebalance some encounters. It's just going to take some time.

[CherobylJ]

<P>Not particularly worried about buff stacking within a class line being removed; more concerned with buff stacking limitations between classes being added (what we called buff blocking in EQ1).  This issue was a royal PITA when arranging raid buffs and I'm just hoping as part this 8 (not 6 month) later "balancing" they have learned from mistakes in the past.</P> <P> </P>

[EtoilePirate]

<span><blockquote><hr>DemosthenesEQ2 wrote: <div> </div> <div>I also noticed some "skill increase" buffs did not stack as well.  For example Call to Battle (Increase crush/piercing/slash/parry) would not stack with a Monk buff that had increase Parry of a greater amount (causing you to lose the increase in C/P/S but gain more Parry).</div> <div> </div> <div>With these changes coming soon I suppose...... It looks like buffs need to be "situationally" cast or they will get blocked.  I think it is time to get a better UI list of buffs on the screen so people can see what is on them and what isnt on them.  <strong>"Buff Management",</strong> as I call it, seems like it will be an important part of EQ2 and at this moment with the current UI in place, we are efficient as a Hummer is with gas milage (9mpg is not very nice). </div><hr></blockquote> I actually discovered in a raid playtest (for many many hours on Saturday) that certain Assassin combat arts "Would Not Take Effect," (this target is already under the influence of a more powerful art, I think it says; this applies to recasting pathfinding before expiration as well) presumably because of some secondary effect that should stack with a group member's buff.  The problem is, I don't have very many non-stealth-positional combat arts to begin with (four melee, two ranged), and losing even one of those due to a stacking buff/debuff problem puts a major snag in my fighting ability. I don't have details because I'm away from my home computer for the week, but I plan to sit down and do some serious experiments and parsing when I get back, to record details.</span><div></div>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>DemosthenesEQ2 wrote: <div>Anyway, anyone else have a list of what is not stacking with what... besides us overpowered guardians. </div><hr></blockquote>Velan's Nervy Order and Rousing Cry no longer stacks. Though Velan's and Intimidaiting Orders do still stack.</span><div></div>

[Troodon]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>SirDrake wrote:<div></div>I feel these abilites are what make us a tank. Are tanks not suppose to have superior hit points and defence over other classes? Hence the name "tank"... What ever i hope they dont screw us over to bad. Also be ready for the strength nerf. Less dps, hp, and defence for the win. What next, why dont they give us one taunt as well? <div></div><p>Message Edited by SirDrake on <span class="date_text">06-19-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:32 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> It didnt strike you the slightest bit odd that when you were asking on the Pally forums about what abilities we use to stack, that the collective responce was "Buff stacking? Whats that? None of our ability lines stack, they overwrite one another"? Not that Id wish a nerf on anyone but dont you think that the Buff Stacking of Warriors is a probably bit unhealthy to the overall game? That content has to be ballanced to cope with the potential that Warriors can achieve via it, which even further [Removed for Content] us non Warriors as the descrepency builds? </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by TroodonIE on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:33 PM</span>