Fix Spell Upgrades

[Styl]

<DIV>I'm sure this has been beaten to death, but I'm trying to figure out why we are doing LU's that change the type's of fonts we use, instead of fixing the spell upgrades, that have been screwed up sence launch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have numerous lvl 50 Swashbuckler spells, that DO NOT UPGRADE at all from Adept 3 to Master 1.  Heck, I have like 3 that do NOT UPGRADE from Adept 1 to Master 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is really silly when we are doing LU's to add new fonts, when we still have broken spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Check out the complete line of lvl 40 - 50 swashbuckler spells.  About 3/4 of them do not upgrade at all.  If you need a list, I'd be happy to post them for you.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Stylin on <span class=date_text>06-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 PM</span>

[Scrav]

I thought this was part of the upcomming combat balancing patch where every single ability is getting reviewed. <div></div>

[vochore]

combat balancing,+class balancing, the way soe is going  dodnt plan on seeing that untill the next expansion comes out.

[einar4]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vochore wrote:<BR>combat balancing,+class balancing, the way soe is going  dodnt plan on seeing that untill the next expansion comes out. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And its a given that when it does happen, it will further trivialize the App IV upgrade as opposed to the now dirt-common Adept I upgrade (and even less of an enhancement over the App II upgrade). </P> <P> </P>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Scrav wrote:I thought this was part of the upcomming combat balancing patch where every single ability is getting reviewed. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I believe that it is. I don't expect any spell or CA changes save those that are determined to actually break the game until the Big Combat Revision comes out. Some <i>very</i> tentative and not at all official estimates on when it would be done were reported from FanFaire; those estimated 6 - 8 weeks, 4 weeks <i>maybe</i>. Personally I'm hoping to see it on Test in 3 - 4 weeks, then anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks of tweaking and bugfixing, but SOE may not want to have it on Test that long. Once it's on Test there will be immense pressure to push it live, not to mention the screams from those whose favorite things were changed.

[Blackguard]

Spell upgrade issues are being addressed as part of our combat changes. <div></div>

[Geohi]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:Spell upgrade issues are being addressed as part of our combat changes. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Oh oh oh! The Infamous combat changes! So when are these? When are the long awaited preist balances, scout balances, enchanter fixes, tank equality, and damage changes?  When are THESE coming? Live update 12? A full SIX updates away from when you originally promised them? 18? 24? I hate to be rude, but certain classes have suffered long enough. -Geo</span><div></div>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geohin1 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR>Spell upgrade issues are being addressed as part of our combat changes.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Oh oh oh! The Infamous combat changes!<BR><BR>So when are these? When are the long awaited preist balances, scout balances, enchanter fixes, tank equality, and damage changes?  When are THESE coming? Live update 12? A full SIX updates away from when you originally promised them? 18? 24?<BR><BR>I hate to be rude, but certain classes have suffered long enough.<BR><BR>-Geo<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think you answered your own question.  The reason they do not commit to a date or timeframe with the combat changes is because people will hold them to those dates even if they are only a "rough guess."  And if the date given comes and goes not even World War 3 will be a good enough excuse as to why the date was missed.<BR>

[Tag]

<P>Why can they always meet dates when it is something that will bring them more money? The original game release, the first adventure pack, the upcoming adventure pack they can set dates and meet them when it will bring them more cashflow. They could surely set a date and meet it for this combat revamp. I and many others are tired of their excuses and evasions.</P> <P> </P>

[Rohlstu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogar wrote:<BR><BR>I think you answered your own question.  The reason they do not commit to a date or timeframe with the combat changes is because people will hold them to those dates even if they are only a "rough guess."  And if the date given comes and goes not even World War 3 will be a good enough excuse as to why the date was missed.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The community would be a bit more forgiving if communication was done more frequently and more outright in explanations.  The community has been duped before...3 times actually I believe, and deservedly have a right to be suspicious when offered something so detailed as "It's coming with combat change."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cowdenic]

<DIV>I can tell you when the Combat changes are coming. Was I not right about froggies, I said E3 on here months before it, people said I was lieing, I said watch. What happened E3. Thats right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When will combat changes be ready. SAME ANSWER. E3, next year.</DIV>

[Rohlstu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <DIV>I can tell you when the Combat changes are coming. Was I not right about froggies, I said E3 on here months before it, people said I was lieing, I said watch. What happened E3. Thats right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When will combat changes be ready. SAME ANSWER. E3, next year.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I honestly hope not, because I never thought I would have enjoyed this game as much as I do.</P> <P>But to be frankly honest, we ALL should be giving some serious consideration to continue playing if we get the Expansion Pack before the Combat Change...</P>

[Cowdenic]

quite simply if they do not have 1-50 fixed before they bring in 60 let me know how the expansion pack is, because I wont be here. That includes the combat "fixes" i.e. the Nerfs

[VonStein]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR>quite simply if they do not have 1-50 fixed before they bring in 60 let me know how the expansion pack is, because I wont be here. That includes the combat "fixes" i.e. the Nerfs <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Concur

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR><BR>I believe that it is. I don't expect any spell or CA changes save those that are determined to actually break the game until the Big Combat Revision comes out. Some <I>very</I> tentative and not at all official estimates on when it would be done were reported from FanFaire; those estimated 6 - 8 weeks, 4 weeks <I>maybe</I>. Personally I'm hoping to see it on Test in 3 - 4 weeks, then anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks of tweaking and bugfixing, but SOE may not want to have it on Test that long. Once it's on Test there will be immense pressure to push it live, not to mention the screams from those whose favorite things were changed.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We're focusing the efforts of our mechanics guys on the spell revamp right now, as it's more efficient to make one set of changes than two. And one more time for the record, the people who make changes to fonts or screenshot options are not the same people who work on spells. Making changes on one aspect of the game does not mean we are neglecting another.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I've given indications before as to when we hoped to have the changes ready, I didn't promise them at a specific time. Again, if I mean to promise something, I will say "I promise that..." followed by details of what I am promising. Otherwise, assume I'm relaying the best information I have available at the time, and that it is subject to change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, we all wanted the changes to be on Test by now. The magnitude of the job has caused it to take longer than anticipated, for which we apologize. As I've said many times, though, this is something we're not rushing. We want to get it right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you've read coverage of the Saturday spell panel at FanFaire, you'll see some of the specific spell/art changes that are coming. They were very well received by those in attendance, and I think most players will be pleased. When they go to Test, we will also turn the new combat code back on so that the system can be tested as a whole.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still prefer not to state a firm date for when they'll go to Test, but it will be soon. I know that's frustrating, but it's less frustrating than giving a date that's still subject to change. I will post more when I have concrete details.</DIV>

[Handleba]

Where were the notes from the Saturday spell thin gposted?  I did not see them anywhere and I spend a good deal of time on the forums. <div></div>

[xAlar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you've read coverage of the Saturday spell panel at FanFaire, you'll see some of the specific spell/art changes that are coming. They were very well received by those in attendance, and I think most players will be pleased. When they go to Test, we will also turn the new combat code back on so that the system can be tested as a whole.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I've searched high and low for anything regarding a "Saturday spell panel at FanFaire" and don't see any coverage of anything specific at all.  Where is this posted?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Runelaron]

<P>I would love to read this also, Though I can not find hide nor hair of the panel being Published.</P> <P>I even checked O-gaming and they gave two brief details that everyone already knows about INT modifying dmg and Clerics geting a dmg revamp.</P> <P> </P>

[Darmash]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div><div>And one more time for the record, the people who make changes to fonts or screenshot options are not the same people who work on spells. Making changes on one aspect of the game does not mean we are neglecting another.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>That sounds logical. But aren't those working on the spells the same ones who are on /duel ? That is, the same people who should work on a long awaited for change are devoted on a very controversial one, that a good part of the community does not want, and the majority would never use ?</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Darmash on <span class=date_text>06-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:38 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

well Moorgard, that is better than nothing.

[Orki who Pos]

>well Moorgard, that is better than nothing. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I got a bridge to sell you.. it will arrive soon</FONT><FONT size=2>(tm)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>"A plan, without a deadline, is just a dream"</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Quote from "The road to success"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <span class=date_text>06-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[Ujina]

<DIV>I remember reading somewhere that there will be changes in combat mechanic with the release of Desert Of Flame, it was in an advert for it. . .</DIV> <DIV>I am not sure of that but i remember I was astonished by that.</DIV>

[Nerj]

<P>I find it funny that something that was supposed to have been rung out in BETA is still broken. The problem Moorgard, is that your idea of game breaking is different then ours. </P> <P>For example, if a CA was supposed to do 400 damage and it does 800 -- it is hotfixed in a couple of days. However, if that same CA was supposed to do 400 damage and it does 200 -- we have to wait for the Combat Rebalance. See the frustration here!</P>

[Tag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Handlebars wrote:<BR>Where were the notes from the Saturday spell thin gposted?  I did not see them anywhere and I spend a good deal of time on the forums.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is the only thing related to fanfair I found when searching the forum for the words "spell panel". </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13231" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13231</A></P> <P>It is about Guardian changes mostly. </P> <P>Moogard makes it sound like there are official notes posted somewhere. I can find no official notes. </P> <P>I still find it odd that they can make and meet deadlines when they want to, as long as it is to get more money from the players they make and meet deadlines fine. </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Tagga on <span class=date_text>06-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:19 AM</span>

[wurtin]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tagga wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Handlebars wrote:<BR>Where were the notes from the Saturday spell thin gposted?  I did not see them anywhere and I spend a good deal of time on the forums.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is the only thing related to fanfair I found when searching the forum for the words "spell panel". </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13231" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13231</A></P> <P>It is about Guardian changes mostly. </P> <P>Moogard makes it sound like there are official notes posted somewhere. I can find no official notes. </P> <P>I still find it odd that they can make and meet deadlines when they want to, as long as it is to get more money from the players they make and meet deadlines fine. </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Tagga on <SPAN class=date_text>06-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:19 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Is this your first PC game you've ever played?  Do you follow PC gaming?  Do you know how many times dates get missed by game companies?  All the time.  It's gotten so, most of the top game makers don't give release dates at all anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You make it sound like they are missing deadlines on purpose when they never gave one to the public.  I'm sure they have internal dates for everything, but feature creep and just general project scope changes have a large impact over when projects get done.  they've said numerous times that this evolved out of trying to balance priests.  So, initially, this was a relatively minor change.  Now the change has grown to the point where they have to completely rebalance everything from scratch, review each and every spell and combat art we get. 1-50.  Probably add spells and arts to compensate for the spell leveling change, and of course the code changes to support the new combat mechanics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want them to get it done right.  I don't want it rushed.  If this isn't implemented well, it will negatively affect everyone who plays the game.</DIV>

[Murchik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV>We're focusing the efforts of our mechanics guys on the spell revamp right now, as it's more efficient to make one set of changes than two. And one more time for the record, the people who make changes to fonts or screenshot options are not the same people who work on spells. Making changes on one aspect of the game does not mean we are neglecting another.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>But I am sure that the people who work on the spell set up for all advanture packs and expansions could do just as good job redoing/fixing existing spells?  Only it doesnt bring as much $ in does it?</DIV>

[Tag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> wurtin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tagga wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Handlebars wrote:<BR>Where were the notes from the Saturday spell thin gposted?  I did not see them anywhere and I spend a good deal of time on the forums.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is the only thing related to fanfair I found when searching the forum for the words "spell panel". </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13231" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13231</A></P> <P>It is about Guardian changes mostly. </P> <P>Moogard makes it sound like there are official notes posted somewhere. I can find no official notes. </P> <P>I still find it odd that they can make and meet deadlines when they want to, as long as it is to get more money from the players they make and meet deadlines fine. </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Tagga on <SPAN class=date_text>06-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:19 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Is this your first PC game you've ever played?  Do you follow PC gaming?  Do you know how many times dates get missed by game companies?  All the time.  It's gotten so, most of the top game makers don't give release dates at all anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You make it sound like they are missing deadlines on purpose when they never gave one to the public.  I'm sure they have internal dates for everything, but feature creep and just general project scope changes have a large impact over when projects get done.  they've said numerous times that this evolved out of trying to balance priests.  So, initially, this was a relatively minor change.  Now the change has grown to the point where they have to completely rebalance everything from scratch, review each and every spell and combat art we get. 1-50.  Probably add spells and arts to compensate for the spell leveling change, and of course the code changes to support the new combat mechanics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want them to get it done right.  I don't want it rushed.  If this isn't implemented well, it will negatively affect everyone who plays the game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am talking about SOE here not game companies in general more specifically I'm talking about EQ2 it was released 1 week ahead of the time they had planned. </P> <P>Did you notice the first adventure pack was also on time? </P> <P>They haven't missed a deadline in EQ2 yet when it is going to cause a player to pay them more money. </P> <P>So SOE can and does make and keep deadlines when it is convienient for them. </P> <P>As to the scope of this change that is controlled by SOE all players wanted was them to fix broken spells and classes.</P> <P>SOE chose to make major changes and if they weren't trying to suck more cash from players they would have finished this revamp by now. Most of their development team is working on the expansion and adventure pack.</P>

[Tag]

<P>After promising a combat revamp for a year with no set dates here is an excerpt from the post SOE made to us in SWG.</P> <P></P> <HR> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><STRONG><U>Great Expectations</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>There are great expectations in the community for the upcoming Combat Balance and the Galactic Civil War revamp.  These announced upcoming major features are pivotal to making the Galaxies experience more of a Star Wars experience.  To deliver on these major features, we will need the full development team and re-assembling the team isn’t going to happen until after the upcoming Jump to Lightspeed expansion is shipped.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Delaying these critical features was not something we are doing for our convenience, <FONT color=#ffff00>but only to ensure they are done well</FONT>.  <FONT color=#ffff00>The team leadership has been discussing these changes</FONT>, the future of SWG and the feedback from the community.  Clearly the community wants us to do a better job at delivering the game service and this reinforced our decision to make sure we have adequate resources on each update to the game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>At the core of the discussions are our team goals.  The team’s goals are to increase the quality of the service, make the game more fun and accessible and finally to make a much more intense Star Wars experience.  In this, we agree with the community that our design and implementation process should continue to be improved and we want to assure our customers that it is our goal to exceed their expectations and make SWG the finest MMORPG ever.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Rather than continue to split the team’s forces and try to accomplish too many goals, we’re going to do a few things and do them right.  Once the Jump To Lightspeed is complete, the team as a whole will be re-grouped.  Then the combined team will accomplish the Combat Balance, the GCW and all the other improvements to the game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P></P> <HR> <DIV>The full post is here <A href="http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=57919&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=dev_archive&message.id=57919&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See the similarities? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like Moorgard to post that the EQ2 balance will come before the expansion, if not at least he now has a link to go to that he can just reword for EQ2. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Joker3]

<DIV>I am actually glad they have not "fixed" the spells yet. I hope it is still a couple months off. That way I can keep playing this enjoyable semi broken game before they totally break it. The good news is that I was smart and rolled: a pallie, a warden, a templar, a swashie, a dirge and a summoner. I switch back and forth between the characters depending on which one is the least broken that particular week. There is just no way SOE can totally break all those classes, is there? Right??? I mean, not with their impeccable track record and all...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could someone hold me please? I am frightened. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could you please hotfix the mystics wards now though? There is no reason for that to be put off until the update. No reason at all.</DIV>

[VonStein]

<P>Soo.... we got spell and combat guys working on???</P> <P> </P> <P>1. The Expansion, which will without a doubt ship on time... good trick as to how they can to that without knowing how the base combat system will work...</P> <P>2. The total rewrite of CAs and Spells for PVP, due to "balance", whch will be in the expansion if they do as advertised.</P> <P>3. An last and least, what we all want, Spells and CA's to work correctly... Like,... oh... Priest balancing, SK's workin right, Mages more balanced, Scout DPS... and on... and on...</P> <P> </P> <P>There are 3 major combat and spell projects going on right now, which WILL affect each other... but the first which must be complete is the probably getting the lowest priority...</P>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> wurtin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Is this your first PC game you've ever played?  Do you follow PC gaming?  Do you know how many times dates get missed by game companies?  All the time.  It's gotten so, most of the top game makers don't give release dates at all anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You make it sound like they are missing deadlines on purpose when they never gave one to the public.  I'm sure they have internal dates for everything, but feature creep and just general project scope changes have a large impact over when projects get done.  they've said numerous times that this evolved out of trying to balance priests.  So, initially, this was a relatively minor change.  Now the change has grown to the point where they have to completely rebalance everything from scratch, review each and every spell and combat art we get. 1-50.  Probably add spells and arts to compensate for the spell leveling change, and of course the code changes to support the new combat mechanics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want them to get it done right.  I don't want it rushed.  If this isn't implemented well, it will negatively affect everyone who plays the game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, I played EQ One for nearly six years. Poor customer service becoming an industry norm does not make me more pleased with it when I find it in EQ2.  <BR><BR>I understand the difficulties inherent in their revamp. But the fact that Moorgard is willing to post comments on this issue when there are many others he ignores should tell you they have to be aware of the negative impact this is having on their customer relations. But let me compare it to an example in another venue:</P> <P>I go to the doctor and he informs me he's found something wrong somewhere and a little operation I can have done as an outpatient will take care of it. Half a day of my life and it's over. In I go for the scheduled surgery (they won't even have to put me under) and fifteen minutes in, the doctor says "Oh, dear." I'm lying on the operating table thinking "Uh, oh." They sew me back up in record time and later that afternoon, the doctor comes in and says, "We thought this was just a little lump, but it's really a massive cancer....we're going to need you to suffer indefinitely because we can't schedule the surgery for....well, we can't really say when, but it will be months. I'm sure you will just LOVE being cancer free at that point, though, because we'll do a fine job then." In the meantime, I'll be admitted to the hospital but they will make sure I can get my hair and nails done, because of course they want me to feel good about myself. </P> <P>Now, I'm not going to argue that I wouldn't want the nail technician operating on my internal organs. My total exasperation and lack of belief comes from the fact that I am watching the hospital's advertisements for their new handy dandy parking garage and garden atrium which will be finished in a couple of months at the same time that they're telling me cutbacks force them to put off treating my life threatening illness. I don't really care that I can view the garden while I'm having my hair done and my nails buffed because I'm IN THE HOSPITAL. If they want me to feel better, a pretty garden and a new hairstyle won't help as much as curing my cancer. And while I'm waiting, I would like to know how long it will take, because I might be tempted to take my hard earned money and find a new doctor and a new game....err hospital. </P> <P>Yes, there are people who will complain no matter what they say. But I believe that there are more people like me, who will stick with a game if someone tells me how, when, and why they are improving it. It is very nice to work on fonts, though I changed mine immediately back, but someone has HAD to set a deadline on how long they can fiddle with combat and spells, and keeping us in the dark for so long while feeding us caca is having the inevitable mushroom effect. Mushrooming anger, that is.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 39 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P> <P> </P>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ashlian wrote:</P> <P>But let me compare it to an example in another venue:</P> <P>I go to the doctor and he informs me he's found something wrong somewhere and a little operation I can have done as an outpatient will take care of it. Half a day of my life and it's over. In I go for the scheduled surgery (they won't even have to put me under) and fifteen minutes in, the doctor says "Oh, dear." I'm lying on the operating table thinking "Uh, oh." They sew me back up in record time and later that afternoon, the doctor comes in and says, <FONT color=#ffff00>"We thought this was just a little lump, but it's really a massive cancer....we're going to need you to suffer indefinitely because we can't schedule the surgery for....well, we can't really say when, but it will be months. I'm sure you will just LOVE being cancer free at that point, though, because we'll do a fine job then." In the meantime, I'll be admitted to the hospital but they will make sure I can get my hair and nails done, because of course they want me to feel good about myself.</FONT></P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 39 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your analagy is slightly off.  The surgery is being performed currently; however, nobody knows how long the surgery will last.  So instead of seweing you up and saying re-schedule the surgery, they never sewed you up and started to cure you of cancer at that time.  Meanwhile, the contruction workers are busy adding to the hospital with the Doctors doing what they are paid to do.</P> <P>Since we are talking about cancer now, anybody know the ETA on the cure?  I mean comon, without a solid ETA how do we know people are actually working on a cure at all.</P>

[Cowdenic]

<DIV> <P>Soo.... we got spell and combat guys working on???</P> <P> </P> <P>1. The Expansion, which will without a doubt ship on time... good trick as to how they can to that without knowing how the base combat system will work...</P> <P>2. The total rewrite of CAs and Spells for PVP, due to "balance", whch will be in the expansion if they do as advertised.</P> <P>3. An last and least, what we all want, Spells and CA's to work correctly... Like,... oh... Priest balancing, SK's workin right, Mages more balanced, Scout DPS... and on... and on...</P> <P> </P> <P>There are 3 major combat and spell projects going on right now, which WILL affect each other... but the first which must be complete is the probably getting the lowest priority...</P> <P>1. Different team and it will have bugs, Guaranteed, everything does when it comes out.</P> <P>2. Different combat system entirely.</P> <P>3. We all want spells and CA's to work correctly. There is no problem with Priest balancing. Priests are 100% balanced. The problem is no priest sub class has all their spells working correctly. Some are more [Removed for Content]'d than others but they are ALL a little SNAFU at least right now. </P> <P>I dont want Balance because you know what, if we have "balance" then we do not have 24 classes, just 1.</P> <P> </P> <P>My Templar heals better than your Fury, Guess what? You have better DPS. "But the Templar gets heavy armor" But we get less HP. There are 24 classes in this game, each has their strengths and each has there weaknesses. </P> <P>Guardians are meat shields, their dps sucks for a fighter, Their agro control when played properly is top notch. </P> <P>Each class can be the best class in the game, if you play it right.</P> <P>I want these upgrades just as bad as the next person, and IMO they are takeing a LOOOOOONG time. I will have to relearn to play my class most likely, oh well. I hate people saying this class does this better than me so they need to be nerfed and dont even know how to properly play there class. </P></DIV>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ashlian wrote:</P> <P>But let me compare it to an example in another venue:</P> <P>I go to the doctor and he informs me he's found something wrong somewhere and a little operation I can have done as an outpatient will take care of it. Half a day of my life and it's over. In I go for the scheduled surgery (they won't even have to put me under) and fifteen minutes in, the doctor says "Oh, dear." I'm lying on the operating table thinking "Uh, oh." They sew me back up in record time and later that afternoon, the doctor comes in and says, <FONT color=#ffff00>"We thought this was just a little lump, but it's really a massive cancer....we're going to need you to suffer indefinitely because we can't schedule the surgery for....well, we can't really say when, but it will be months. I'm sure you will just LOVE being cancer free at that point, though, because we'll do a fine job then." In the meantime, I'll be admitted to the hospital but they will make sure I can get my hair and nails done, because of course they want me to feel good about myself.</FONT></P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 39 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your analagy is slightly off.  The surgery is being performed currently; however, nobody knows how long the surgery will last.  So instead of seweing you up and saying re-schedule the surgery, they never sewed you up and started to cure you of cancer at that time.  Meanwhile, the contruction workers are busy adding to the hospital with the Doctors doing what they are paid to do.</P> <P>Since we are talking about cancer now, anybody know the ETA on the cure?  I mean comon, without a solid ETA how do we know people are actually working on a cure at all.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, I'm willing to say they're doing research on the cure. But I don't think they've done ANY repairs.....they're putting off all the repairs until the big surgery. Because I am playing on a live server and not a single solitary fix for these issues has gone live. Therefore, I'm in the hospital awaiting the miraculous results of their research. Talk to any mystic or coercer and ask them if they've received the slightest fix to their spells. In the case of mystics, their cancer has progressed. Or, if you like, you could say they're practicing on my clone, because they sure aren't doing anything to or for me regarding spells or combat at the moment.</P> <P>As for the second statement.....the difference would be if I had been asked to pay for the cure in advance. Had forked over my money and had been told the cure WAS coming, but......who knows when. That would be called fraud if it was perpetrated by medical personnel in the US. I don't hate SOE, but neither am I going to give them a free pass. Make of my analogy what you will, my point is that it is extremely, extremely bad customer service to promise something, which they DID, and then leave your customer hanging.</P> <P>Would you feel better if I had made it just really bad acne? I'm willing to say it's not quite as serious as cancer.....but like cancer, distrust grows if left unchecked. It's not just that they promised a cure, it's that they have repeated vague assurances so often now without providing any information on their actual progress that people simply don't believe them. Even those of us who do believe it are incredibly frustrated with the evasiveness. If the doctor refused to tell me details of the treatment, I would be upset. This is no different. I don't believe in blind faith.</P> <P>And just for the record, I know that people like MG can't say anything they aren't told to say! It's SOE the corporation I'm upset with, not SOE the individuals who work there. Most of them, and virtually all of the people we actually deal with, are not responsible for policy anymore than my local mayor is responsible for George W. Bush. This is not an attack on SOE workers, it's a statement of how the corporation's deliberate policy of stonewalling has annoyed the holy heck out of me....and it's not just me.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 39 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P>

[quetzaqotl]

<DIV><FONT size=2> </FONT> <P><FONT size=2>My Templar heals better than your Fury, Guess what? You have better DPS. "But the Templar gets heavy armor" But we get less HP. There are 24 classes in this game, each has their strengths and each has there weaknesses. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Guardians are meat shields, their dps sucks for a fighter, Their agro control when played properly is top notch. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Each class can be the best class in the game, if you play it right.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I want these upgrades just as bad as the next person, and IMO they are takeing a LOOOOOONG time. I will have to relearn to play my class most likely, oh well. I hate people saying this class does this better than me so they need to be nerfed and dont even know how to properly play there class. </FONT></P> <P>OMG clueless you are I guess furies and mystics cant play their classes as good as the so difficult to play templars.</P> <P>Dont you start saying all classes are balanced as is cause thats a moronic statement yes I have dps but whats the plus i should be able to use my dps in a grp to get the same thing done as a templar can and at the same ease => getting a mob down before it downs my grp.</P> <P>You tell that people should go and learn how to play their classes, youyre [Removed for Content] ignorant man go and play your SOE's love pet and hit reactive before the pull spam some heals in just cause youre sloppy and you wont get aggro hurraay aint that swell.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also Moorgard you DID promise a fix fro priests you said the changes would go live in LU6 (and after that lu7 etc etc.)and that in my book is a promise, its not like you said  "I swear to god almighty" but saying a fix will go in at Lu# is a promise in my book.</P></DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> quetzaqotl wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=2>[Quote] </FONT> <P>Also Moorgard you DID promise a fix fro priests you said the changes would go live in LU6 (and after that lu7 etc etc.)and that in my book is a promise, its not like you said  "I swear to god almighty" but saying a fix will go in at Lu# is a promise in my book.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The priest balancing is the cause of the combat changes.  SOE realized that changing a few spells around would not correct the problems the Priest classes are having (or any class for that matter). So SOE went to the core of the problem and is changing the way spells, skills, and combat works.  <BR>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashlian wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Ok, I'm willing to say they're doing research on the cure. But I don't think they've done ANY repairs.....they're putting off all the repairs until the big surgery. Because I am playing on a live server and not a single solitary fix for these issues has gone live. Therefore, I'm in the hospital awaiting the miraculous results of their research. Talk to any mystic or coercer and ask them if they've received the slightest fix to their spells. In the case of mystics, their cancer has progressed. Or, if you like, you could say they're practicing on my clone, because they sure aren't doing anything to or for me regarding spells or combat at the moment.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>SOE has done repairs, look at the test server.  They cannot incorporate the repairs they have done because they would not work until the whole system has been changed.  Would be like getting into a car without a motor, sure the body and paint is done; however, the engine is still be worked on.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>On the Mystic thing...  I have grouped with a Mystic since I was in the 30's (I am a 50 Berserker now).  There was not a single time I said to myself, I wish the Mystic was another healer type.  As a matter of fact, I have beaten encounters with only a Mystic and myself that other people said required at least 4 people (2 healers).  So I do not think the Mystics are broken.  Do they have spells that can be fixed?  Yes, definatly (what class does not?).  But nothing game breaking.  All this is from a non-raid perspective.</FONT></P> <P>As for the second statement.....the difference would be if I had been asked to pay for the cure in advance. Had forked over my money and had been told the cure WAS coming, but......who knows when. That would be called fraud if it was perpetrated by medical personnel in the US. I don't hate SOE, but neither am I going to give them a free pass. Make of my analogy what you will, my point is that it is extremely, extremely bad customer service to promise something, which they DID, and then leave your customer hanging.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>If you live in the U.S. of A. you do pay for the cure for cancer, it is called taxes.  But that is neither here nor there.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>When has SOE lied about the combat changes?  They stated the combat changes are a direct result of the Priest balancing.  The problem was alot bigger then they first thought, changing 1,500+ Skills / spells and changing the way stats work is not a small task.  Patience is a virtue.</FONT></P> <P>Would you feel better if I had made it just really bad acne? I'm willing to say it's not quite as serious as cancer.....but like cancer, distrust grows if left unchecked. It's not just that they promised a cure, it's that they have repeated vague assurances so often now without providing any information on their actual progress that people simply don't believe them. Even those of us who do believe it are incredibly frustrated with the evasiveness. If the doctor refused to tell me details of the treatment, I would be upset. This is no different. I don't believe in blind faith.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>SOE cannot make concrete statements.  Because if they changed anything they said World War 3 would start.  You think not having a set ETA on the fix is causing alot of noise, wait till SOE promises something will not change, then changes it 6 months later for balance reassons.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>SOE has stated time and time again the combat balance is being worked on by a dedicated team of Developers.  There have been a few changes made to the test server already which shows they are working on the changes.  Why have you not seen the spell / skills go onto test yet?  Because they want to make sure they are done correctly and there are alot of skills / spells to adjust and make sure they are working as intended.  Can you imagine the uproar if after combat changes there are still broken / useless skills / spells (Shudders).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>What is the purpose of putting the new healing spells on test if the fighter taunts are not upgraded yet?  You will have all the healers dying because they gain to much agro and the fighters would be unable to do their job correctly (tanking).</FONT></P> <P>And just for the record, I know that people like MG can't say anything they aren't told to say! It's SOE the corporation I'm upset with, not SOE the individuals who work there. Most of them, and virtually all of the people we actually deal with, are not responsible for policy anymore than my local mayor is responsible for George W. Bush. This is not an attack on SOE workers, it's a statement of how the corporation's deliberate policy of stonewalling has annoyed the holy heck out of me....and it's not just me.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I agree with the above statement (although I am not annoyed or upset).  However, SOE cannot give you all of the information you want.  Because if SOE missed a deadline or changed anything from the information given there would be post after post of nothing but flames, regardless of the reason it was changed / missed.</FONT></P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 39 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Cowdenic]

<P>The classes are balances, the skills are broken. I guess you have a reading comprehension problem.</P> <P> </P> <P>You can do H.O.T. and wards before pull, what is the difference?</P>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>The classes are balances, the skills are broken. I guess you have a reading comprehension problem.</P> <P> </P> <P>You can do H.O.T. and wards before pull, what is the difference?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ummm....  Classes are defined by the skills they have.  What is the difference between a Guardian and a Ranger?  Skills available to each.  So how can classes be balanced if the skills are broken?</P> <P>Every class has multiple broken skills; however, none of them are at the level which prevents people from playing the respective class.</P> <P>Difference between H.O.T. and wards, here are the top 3 off the top of my head:</P> <OL> <LI>HOT lose effectiveness the longer the tank takes to get damaged.</LI> <LI>HOT places agro onto the druid.</LI> <LI>Wards do not take mitigation into effect.</LI></OL> <P> </P>

[Cowdenic]

<P>There are a few more differences in Guardian and Ranger than just their skills.</P> <P> </P> <P>Armor type available to use,</P> <P>Total HP,</P> <P>Total DPS</P> <P>Types of weapons</P> <P>Basically there is a world of difference between a Guardian and a Ranger.</P>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote:<BR> <P>There are a few more differences in Guardian and Ranger than just their skills.</P> <P> </P> <P>Armor type available to use,</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Being able to wear armor is a skill.  The knowldege is auto-gained but being able to wear armor is still a skill (check you skill list).</FONT></P> <P>Total HP,</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Correct, Warriors are on a different table when figuring out how much health they recieve per stamina point.</FONT></P> <P>Total DPS</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Most DPS comes from skills, very little of the DPS comes from auto-attacks.  The damage from auto-attacks is mostly based off of weapon used (and the proc if it has one).</FONT></P> <P>Types of weapons</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>As with armor, weapons require a skill to use.  Check your skill list and you will be able to see what weapons you can or cannot use.  Like the armor skills, weapon skills are auto-gained.</FONT></P> <P>Basically there is a world of difference between a Guardian and a Ranger.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>You are correct there is a world of difference between a Guardian and a Ranger.  Most of the difference is from the skills that are available to them.</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Ashlian]

<FONT color=#ffcc33></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogar wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashlian wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Ok, I'm willing to say they're doing research on the cure. But I don't think they've done ANY repairs.....they're putting off all the repairs until the big surgery. Because I am playing on a live server and not a single solitary fix for these issues has gone live. Therefore, I'm in the hospital awaiting the miraculous results of their research. Talk to any mystic or coercer and ask them if they've received the slightest fix to their spells. In the case of mystics, their cancer has progressed. Or, if you like, you could say they're practicing on my clone, because they sure aren't doing anything to or for me regarding spells or combat at the moment.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>SOE has done repairs, look at the test server.  They cannot incorporate the repairs they have done because they would not work until the whole system has been changed.  Would be like getting into a car without a motor, sure the body and paint is done; however, the engine is still be worked on.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>On the Mystic thing...  I have grouped with a Mystic since I was in the 30's (I am a 50 Berserker now).  There was not a single time I said to myself, I wish the Mystic was another healer type.  As a matter of fact, I have beaten encounters with only a Mystic and myself that other people said required at least 4 people (2 healers).  So I do not think the Mystics are broken.  Do they have spells that can be fixed?  Yes, definatly (what class does not?).  But nothing game breaking.  All this is from a non-raid perspective.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>But I don't play on Test. I play on a live server, and there have been no changes to those. That's like saying they're curing cancer in Mongolia, so stop whining about not having anything done about your cancer here. I'm not saying they aren't working on this, that is not the point. The point is that I purchased this game with the hope that they'd learned something from EQ1. I don't care that other MMORPG's do this too, that doesn't make it any better. Had they bothered to listen to their beta testers, most of these changes would have been live when the game was released. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>It's great that you defend the ability of the mystic. And I'm not going to say that I don't manage. I do manage. Again, to me this isn't gamebreaking, it's more a pattern of corporate behavior that I find discouraging, disheartening, and just plain bad. I would also like to ask your mystic friend if there is anything they think is broken about their class. And you cannot discount raids.....one of the reasons both myself and many others bought EQ2 at all was because we were told that all archetype classes would perform equivalently. Not exactly the same, but equivalently. Therefore, I expect your mystic friend or myself to be able to handle appropriate raid targets as easily and effectively as a templar. That is not the case. Until then, it is my opinion that the game is not as advertised.</FONT></P> <P>As for the second statement.....the difference would be if I had been asked to pay for the cure in advance. Had forked over my money and had been told the cure WAS coming, but......who knows when. That would be called fraud if it was perpetrated by medical personnel in the US. I don't hate SOE, but neither am I going to give them a free pass. Make of my analogy what you will, my point is that it is extremely, extremely bad customer service to promise something, which they DID, and then leave your customer hanging.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>If you live in the U.S. of A. you do pay for the cure for cancer, it is called taxes.  But that is neither here nor there.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>When has SOE lied about the combat changes?  They stated the combat changes are a direct result of the Priest balancing.  The problem was alot bigger then they first thought, changing 1,500+ Skills / spells and changing the way stats work is not a small task.  Patience is a virtue.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>In this instance, I'm referring to the monthly fee I pay to play this game. I paid for a game that they haven't yet delivered. The fact that they had to admit there were enough problems to justify taking nine months to work on the issues argues I didn't get what I paid for. Again, the fact that other MMORPG's don't perform well either is no excuse to me. I have no problem that they discovered a bigger problem than they expected. My problem arises because they didn't take the time to properly test before release, allowing the cancer to develop, so to speak. I don't think they lied. I think they were pushed to release too early by management.</FONT></P> <P>Would you feel better if I had made it just really bad acne? I'm willing to say it's not quite as serious as cancer.....but like cancer, distrust grows if left unchecked. It's not just that they promised a cure, it's that they have repeated vague assurances so often now without providing any information on their actual progress that people simply don't believe them. Even those of us who do believe it are incredibly frustrated with the evasiveness. If the doctor refused to tell me details of the treatment, I would be upset. This is no different. I don't believe in blind faith.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>SOE cannot make concrete statements.  Because if they changed anything they said World War 3 would start.  You think not having a set ETA on the fix is causing alot of noise, wait till SOE promises something will not change, then changes it 6 months later for balance reassons.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>SOE has stated time and time again the combat balance is being worked on by a dedicated team of Developers.  There have been a few changes made to the test server already which shows they are working on the changes.  Why have you not seen the spell / skills go onto test yet?  Because they want to make sure they are done correctly and there are alot of skills / spells to adjust and make sure they are working as intended.  Can you imagine the uproar if after combat changes there are still broken / useless skills / spells (Shudders).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>What is the purpose of putting the new healing spells on test if the fighter taunts are not upgraded yet?  You will have all the healers dying because they gain to much agro and the fighters would be unable to do their job correctly (tanking).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>Again, I don't buy that excuse. If they can set deadlines for release of expansions, they can set deadlines for finishing this update. I'm sure there IS a deadline, but we aren't going to hear about it. This is not the invasion of Normandy.....I maintain they get more flak for telling us nothing than they would if they gave us a rough deadline. And I don't mean an exact date. Within a couple of weeks should be plenty of leeway.</FONT></P> <P>And just for the record, I know that people like MG can't say anything they aren't told to say! It's SOE the corporation I'm upset with, not SOE the individuals who work there. Most of them, and virtually all of the people we actually deal with, are not responsible for policy anymore than my local mayor is responsible for George W. Bush. This is not an attack on SOE workers, it's a statement of how the corporation's deliberate policy of stonewalling has annoyed the holy heck out of me....and it's not just me.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I agree with the above statement (although I am not annoyed or upset).  However, SOE cannot give you all of the information you want.  Because if SOE missed a deadline or changed anything from the information given there would be post after post of nothing but flames, regardless of the reason it was changed / missed.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>See above :smileyhappy:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>I'm not going to stop holding the corporation to a higher standard just because I sympathize with the people who work for them. Again, this is a statement of my dissatisfaction with the corporate policy, not an attack on the devs or the community staff.</FONT></P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 39 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Cowdenic]

<P>I am not going to argue nuance in here, I have better things to do with my time.</P> <P> </P> <P>The end result of my argument is this one point.</P> <P> </P> <P>The Classes are balanced if the skills all worked. </P> <P> </P> <P>Quit asking for the Nerf Bat.</P>

[Chog]

Cut down the post length to keep it readable.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Ashlian wrote:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>But I don't play on Test. I play on a live server, and there have been no changes to those. That's like saying they're curing cancer in Mongolia, so stop whining about not having anything done about your cancer here. I'm not saying they aren't working on this, that is not the point. The point is that I purchased this game with the hope that they'd learned something from EQ1. I don't care that other MMORPG's do this too, that doesn't make it any better. Had they bothered to listen to their beta testers, most of these changes would have been live when the game was released. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>They will not implement the changes to the combat system onto the live servers until all parts of the code are ready.  Regardless of what you or others want / demand.  Putting unfinished combat changes onto live servers would be a disaster.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>It's great that you defend the ability of the mystic. And I'm not going to say that I don't manage. I do manage. Again, to me this isn't gamebreaking, it's more a pattern of corporate behavior that I find discouraging, disheartening, and just plain bad. I would also like to ask your mystic friend if there is anything they think is broken about their class. And you cannot discount raids.....one of the reasons both myself and many others bought EQ2 at all was because we were told that all archetype classes would perform equivalently. Not exactly the same, but equivalently. Therefore, I expect your mystic friend or myself to be able to handle appropriate raid targets as easily and effectively as a templar. That is not the case. Until then, it is my opinion that the game is not as advertised.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>The reason I did not talk about raids is because there are 4-8 healers in a raid normally.  I do not play a healer on a raid so I do not know how effective each healer is; however, I have duoed with a mystic multiple times so I can judge a Mystics healing power semi-accuratly.  And I agree I bought into the whole any archtype can perform the main role as well.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>In this instance, I'm referring to the monthly fee I pay to play this game. I paid for a game that they haven't yet delivered. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>What part have they not delivered?  Except for raid level mobs (and even that is debatable) all classes can perform with no to little problems.  There are percieved problems because people read the boards and here somebody whine abut class X.  Yes, not all spells / skills work as intended; however, I have not heard of a single skill or spell that has not been fixed that is game breaking for any class.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>The fact that they had to admit there were enough problems to justify taking nine months to work on the issues argues I didn't get what I paid for. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>You bought the game, SOE is working on the game.  You are getting everything you have paid for.  Just because they do not work as fast as you want them to does not mean you are not getting what you paid for.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>An analogy (since we all love them) and a true story.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>A neighbor spent 3-4 months building a retaining wall of stone around the house by himself, the outcome was amazing.  Not only did the wall look great, the foundation was strong.  Another neighbor admired the wall and hired other people to build a retaining wall.  He rented some heavy equipment to dig the trench and hired labor to lift the stones, his wall went up in less then a week.  Guess who's wall is sturdier, looks better, and will last for another 10 years?  The wall which took 3-4 months to build.  Faster is not better.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>Again, the fact that other MMORPG's don't perform well either is no excuse to me. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>All MMORPG's change  :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>I have no problem that they discovered a bigger problem than they expected. My problem arises because they didn't take the time to properly test before release, allowing the cancer to develop, so to speak. I don't think they lied. I think they were pushed to release too early by management.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>SOE has stated the changes to combat where not evident while in BETA.  Believe SOE's statement or not is your own choice.  What I find funny, you blame them for not testing the combat system enough while in BETA; however, you complain because the combat changes are not showing up on the live servers yet...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>Again, I don't buy that excuse. If they can set deadlines for release of expansions, they can set deadlines for finishing this update. I'm sure there IS a deadline, but we aren't going to hear about it. This is not the invasion of Normandy.....I maintain they get more flak for telling us nothing than they would if they gave us a rough deadline. And I don't mean an exact date. Within a couple of weeks should be plenty of leeway.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>They can set deadlines for expansions / adventure packs because they can withhold certain items from the to do list and add them in later via a patch if they run behind on schedule (Harvesting tools in the initial release is a perfect example).  If a date for the combat changes is released and cannot be upheld by SOE then you will see alot of irate posts (yes, even more then you see know about not knowing the date).  You must not have played EQ1 then, the outcry was horendous everytime SOE released a date and could not make the deadline.  SOE has learned that not realeasing a date is much better then releasing a date and mising the deadline.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>See above :smileyhappy:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc33>I'm not going to stop holding the corporation to a higher standard just because I sympathize with the people who work for them. Again, this is a statement of my dissatisfaction with the corporate policy, not an attack on the devs or the community staff.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Need to keep one thing in mind about SOE, they are all about the money.  With that said, the combat changes will take time to arrive onto the live servers because SOE knows the combat changes is a timebomb, if done correctly the salvation of EQ2 is at hand and millions will be thiers.  However, if the combat changes are done incorrectly the community of EQ2 will eat SOE alive and the game will perish a death not even Anarchy Online could overcome.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I believe the game was rushed to production, I doubt you will find many that will argue that point; however, the same bean counters that wanted the game released early realize that a change of this magnitude has to be done right the first time.  There will not be a second chance for SOE if they mess up the combat changes.  And that is why I believe SOE will release the combat changes when they are ready and not before, regardless of the people complaining about no ETA or evidence of the combat changes being worked on.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 39 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cowdenicus wrote: <P>The end result of my argument is this one point.</P> <P>The Classes are balanced if the skills all worked. </P> <P>Quit asking for the Nerf Bat.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Buff stacking is one of the many issues at hand that is being corrected with the combat changes.  Currently those skils  work; however, those skills also trivialize raid content.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most people are not asking to nerf certain classes, most people jsut want there own class to work as intended.  Who is asking for the nerf bat to be swung?</DIV>

[Cowdenic]

Then that would mean that the skill itself needs to be changed so they do not stack or changed in code to whatever, if it trivializes one thing.

[quetzaqotl]

<P>I dont need anyone telling me that priest balancing will be part of the combat changes and theyre gonna revamp all skills/spells etc etc. I know that already!</P> <P>Or someone telling me " As a programmer myself..." etc. I dont care for this bullcrap, I only said and its valid imo that MG PROMISED something as he said he never did.</P> <P>Also to mr COW the difference on putting a hot or a reactive  on the mt before pull is one dead druid due to aggro this aggro bug shouldve been fixed long ago and that one hasnt got anything to do with combat changes aggro management is borked for druids.</P> <P>MG stated that druids get a bit too much aggro whereas clerics etc. get to little aggro so they were gonna up the aggro on reactives etc. and tone down the aggro on hots a bit.</P> <P>And your statement if all skills were balanced we all would be balanced uhmm yeah geez thats a tough one man, of course we would be balanced then.</P> <P>How the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] can you state the classes are balanced, but the skills are broken, how can the classes be balanced if the skills are broken?</P> <P>I dont like your tone cow talking about reading comprehension and telling people to play their classes better, youre a typical example of a templar affraid for the nerf bat and whining and saying all everyone cries for is a nerf, while they just wanna be a bit more equal to templars (clerics as a whole).</P> <P>Cow are you affraid that after the aggro/combat changes you might have to do some work for a change and cant toss reactives on the tank before the pull spam stuff etc. in the end it will be better for templars too as you can finally see whos the good templar and whos the noob, better practice a bit cow.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>06-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:05 AM</span>

[Cowdenic]

<P>Afraid???</P> <P> </P> <P>You have got to be kidding me right? Every single heal, smite, buff and debuff I have are at minimum adept 3 quality. At level 37 I was grouping in the obelisk, At 38 Cazic Thule. At 39 I am starting to touch some of the higher end raid content. Do you know why? Because I am the bomb. I aint one of these L33T people looking for Ph4t L00tz or anything, just want to be the best healer I can be. You know why I chose Templar? Because I got sick of not being able to take a hit with my Warlock. Heavy Armor was the only reason I chose Templar. My next toon? Fury. </P> <P>So you know what, you have agro issues, so does everybody else, get over it. You have broken spells, so does everybody else, get over it. </P> <P> </P> <P>There is another option, You can hit that big X at the top left of your monitor if you dont like it. </P>

[quetzaqotl]

<P>Or I can hit that big one star button, that will give me some satisfaction too Im sure hehe i wont be so childish to do so but you got me tempted mr toughguy hehe.</P> <P>Ive been playing this game ever since it came out and I sure as heck know how to play my class, not every class got aggro issues if you do have aggro issues being a templar hmm well then u suck hehe.</P> <P> </P> <P>Wouldnt advice you to pick up a fury it might be a little bit too much for you to handle <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>also to quote mr Orwell: "All classes are equal, but some are more equal than others"</P> <P>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <SPAN class=date_text>06-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:20 PM</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>OMG the cow has found the button of doom hehe is np now i know it hit home <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by quetzaqotl on <span class=date_text>06-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 PM</span>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Chogar wrote:<BR>Cut down the post length to keep it readable.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yes, getting ridiculously long. We'll have to agree to disagree. When you get slaughtered or have to stand there in battle healing yourself over and over rather than the tank because your HoT's have the aggro of your fast heals (which is not the case with templars' reactive heals) and you stand there with a great big target painted on your butt, you might say that it affects your gameplay rather negatively. I'm not saying that if I were always in a group with very well accoutered, well played characters, I might not have any trouble. The reason we're upset is that in EQ2 I WAS promised, as were others, that no archetype would have to "manage." If the templar can stand there doing the equivalent of bouncing a basketball, I shouldn't have to bounce the basketball while hopping on one foot and juggling flaming torches. Which is an exaggeration, of course, but I'm trying to convey a point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is, to me, a difference between "broken" and "completely unplayable." It's like saying my 65 Mustang convertible I used to have was reliable. Sure, except for the fact that it broke down once every three or four months, leaving me stranded at the side of the road. Yes, I loved my Mustang, but no, I don't have it now, because I chose to purchase a more reliable, less flashy model, that doesn't leave me out in the middle of nowhere with no help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In your analogy about the neighbor, let me reverse it. What if the neighbor who'd contracted had gotten his wall first, and the second neighbor had built his after seeing the fiasco that resulted when the first wall started to break down in a few weeks. That's EQ2. The foundation wasn't done correctly, and my wall is crumbling. It's still there, and I can still use it, but it's not a sturdy wall. Should I pay the contractor for shoddy work? Or give him a year to fix it when it should have been built correctly to begin with?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sick unto death of hearing that MMORPG's don't have to be held to decent standards because......they're MMORPG's. I do expect them to change. I played EQ One for over five years, I'm familiar with the concept. I am very glad for you that you don't experience the same annoyances that many of us do. That doesn't invalidate either your experience OR mine. But there are enough of us with less stellar experiences than yours that I think we can conclude there is, indeed, a pretty big problem. I also simply don't agree with you about deadlines. At this point, they should have a pretty darn good idea of the scope of the problem. I didn't complain the first month, the second month, the third or fourth or fifth month. It's reached the point where inquiring minds want to know, and the devs SHOULD know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not arguing that I get nothing I paid for. I just didn't get something nearly as good as I'd expected, and I'm expressing my displeasure not only with that, but that the improvement process has no transparency. I don't remember the outcries if a date on an expansion in One was pushed back. I remember the outcries when expansions created huge and lasting problems for many many people, like Luclin did. Or when features were put in place unfinished, like the class quests out of Cabilis, and LEFT unfinished for years. This is not acceptable to me no matter what the product is. It's just poor workmanship. There are always the people eager for the next best thing, but in an MMORPG environment, I think the majority of us would LIKE something worth being loyal to. There are many reasons I stayed in EQ One for those years, and I had every intention of sticking with EQ2....but it's just not good enough to make me stay if something comes along, especially if the product actually lives up to some of its hype.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, I don't expect them to set a specific date, I expect them to give us a general idea of when we can expect this to be finished, rather than allowing rumor to do their work for them. I would guess that the people who went to Fan Faire on my server and came back saying, unofficially it should be a couple of weeks before the expansion is released, are probably right. But that's an answer I'd like from SOE in person.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ashlian Liadan, 40 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</DIV>

[Kroder]

<DIV>Something to consider with healers.  The tank you are working with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played both a Fury, and a Templar.  If I play a warrior type, I want that templar.  Hands down, no contest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I play a crusader type, I want that fury.  But fury isn't as good at healing?  Bah.  My crusader has a lovely ward ability.  Unless I am fighting orange cons, it will last until I am able to recast it too.  If I wanted to be able to tank passively, and just take hits, I would have played a guardian instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you know what a cleric's reactive heal does when you are hit?  It goes active, and heals you for a preset amount of damage.  Common knowledge, no big deal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Know what a ward does when combined with a reactive heal?  It keeps the reactive heal from going off, at all.  The ward takes the damage instead, leaving the reactive to burn its timer off, as if it wasn't even there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, since wards stack poorly at best, and reactive heals are worthless when you have a ward up, who is your healer of choice?  You got it, the druid types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That regen sits neatly under the ward, working quietly to fix you up.  The perfect complement of abilities, in harmony.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid pulled aggro?  You can cast the ward on them.  Your group's DPS should be happy regardless, they are not getting beat on here, and can nuke with enthusiasm knowing two other classes have enough aggro to keep that critter busy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What does a brawler type want healing them?  Shaman.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WIth the right armor, a monk / bruiser can have amazing avoidance.  But when they do get hit, it hurts.  The ward takes that hit for them.  And since they are missed so often, the ward is effective in keeping them at full health, since it can live out it's timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This probably is not news to most of you, but while priests may not be perfectly balanced, they are different enough to make a direct comparison very questionable too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you play a templar and a fury the exact same way, it's your playstyle that will determine which one works out better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kroder wrote:<BR> <DIV>Something to consider with healers.  The tank you are working with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played both a Fury, and a Templar.  If I play a warrior type, I want that templar.  Hands down, no contest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I play a crusader type, I want that fury.  But fury isn't as good at healing?  Bah.  My crusader has a lovely ward ability.  Unless I am fighting orange cons, it will last until I am able to recast it too.  If I wanted to be able to tank passively, and just take hits, I would have played a guardian instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you know what a cleric's reactive heal does when you are hit?  It goes active, and heals you for a preset amount of damage.  Common knowledge, no big deal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Know what a ward does when combined with a reactive heal?  It keeps the reactive heal from going off, at all.  The ward takes the damage instead, leaving the reactive to burn its timer off, as if it wasn't even there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, since wards stack poorly at best, and reactive heals are worthless when you have a ward up, who is your healer of choice?  You got it, the druid types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That regen sits neatly under the ward, working quietly to fix you up.  The perfect complement of abilities, in harmony.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druid pulled aggro?  You can cast the ward on them.  Your group's DPS should be happy regardless, they are not getting beat on here, and can nuke with enthusiasm knowing two other classes have enough aggro to keep that critter busy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What does a brawler type want healing them?  Shaman.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WIth the right armor, a monk / bruiser can have amazing avoidance.  But when they do get hit, it hurts.  The ward takes that hit for them.  And since they are missed so often, the ward is effective in keeping them at full health, since it can live out it's timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This probably is not news to most of you, but while priests may not be perfectly balanced, they are different enough to make a direct comparison very questionable too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you play a templar and a fury the exact same way, it's your playstyle that will determine which one works out better.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Agreed. But I can't always choose what tank I'm going to play with. I spend about half my time in my guild with a paladin. The other half with a guardian. And I have a good friend who is a monk. I honestly feel I should be able to be effective with all of them. This goes back to "managing." It's great to be able to figure out these nice combos, and I'm all for gearing different situations to work best with different class combos. But I would prefer that working in a good combo allow me to be extraordinary instead of merely effective, while working in a less stellar situation lets me be effective. Instead, it's more like I'm only truly effective in certain combos, and pretty sad in others compared to a different healer. Hopefully, this is what the great revamp will accomplish, along with better stacking of cleric and shaman heals. That's one advantage I DO have as a fury, that my heals stack with both the other classes, so I work very well with any other non fury healer. It's when I'm the only healer, as you mentioned, with certain classes in particular tanking, that I feel significantly underpowered. I'm glad you pointed out that there are effective combos for tanks with other healers than templars, though, at least below the raid level.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 40 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore<BR></P>

[Kroder]

<DIV>Templar is an awesome debuffer</DIV> <DIV>Fury has the best DPS I know of for a priestly type</DIV> <DIV>The shammies are awesome group buffers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't wanna go into details heavy here, I am trying to keep this short.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sure you know how a fury is played better than I do, since yours is a much higher level than mine.  But I do try to study them, in order to play my own effectively.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kroder wrote:<BR> <DIV>Templar is an awesome debuffer</DIV> <DIV>Fury has the best DPS I know of for a priestly type</DIV> <DIV>The shammies are awesome group buffers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't wanna go into details heavy here, I am trying to keep this short.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sure you know how a fury is played better than I do, since yours is a much higher level than mine.  But I do try to study them, in order to play my own effectively.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I thought you made some very valid points about how they work well with different types of tanks. I don't even think it's bad to have a particular pairing be extremely effective, but it would be nice if we were simply effective across the board with healing, but worked GREAT with a certain class. As it stands now, I don't call it crippled or anything, except in raid situations (which are a completely different dynamic, I think they'll have to do more with kinds of raid targets for that, there's no way to balance them now given the way tanks work at all). There's always been certain classes that could do amazing things together, and I don't have a desire to see that disappear, but I do think all tanks should be able to tank effectively (raids included), all healers should heal effectively, all scouts and mages have similar dps and utility. You might go from good to great with a certain combo and that would be wonderful, but I don't want to see myself do the reverse and go from good to poor if I need to work with a particular kind of tank. </P> <P>I thought your post was well stated and your analysis is on the money, regardless of what level your fury is. The difference does get more apparent at higher levels, but that seems to partly be the spell progression for class specific lines, which doesn't seem to me to be very well thought out. And hopefully, hopefully, that will be smoothed out with the revamp, too. And making adept 3's and masters worthwhile to own.....ah well, at least I have those rumors to go by!</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 40 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P> <P>noticed I was missing a word :smileytongue:</P><p>Message Edited by Ashlian on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:14 PM</span>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>OMG FINALY SOME INTELLIGENT PEOPLE!!!</P> <P>TYTYTY!</P> <P>no realy, THANK YOU! </P> <P>I have the solution for alot of the tnaking inequality so ill just cut and past from my older post tha ti put alot of work into, it's also alot to do with balancing classes with-in the archetype rather than overlaping , liek a berserker out damaging a enchanter.. so here it is!</P> <P>"</P> <P>Ok i just have to interject.</P> <P>Main point of my post here: to have a strong building you must first have a strong foundation and build upon that foundation. </P> <P>Just beacuse a mage goes enchanter does not mean they give up their role as a damage class! Far from it, they should mearly not improve in damage as well as a soceror is on account they have mor fexability to perform more roles than a soceror, hence "utility". Also, damage comes in many forms, and if they added a power drain to ever enchanter'd nuke, made them cost same as a soceror's nuke, with 80% of the damage a soceror would do, then they are in effect still a damage dealing mage, only dealing damage ina different way. If an enchnater is nukeing a Healing monster, that 20% less damage they do might actually return a higher benefit if it drains vital healing power from the mob, such as if the nuke drains 50 power from target, and that target could heals 400 hp from that 50 power, then in a sence the enchanter has done 400 more damage from using the power drain attached to their nuke.  As for summoner, using their DPS pet it needs to have spells = to 60% of the damage capacity of the soceror, and a nuke+DOT spell that in 30 seconds can make up the remaining 40% of the soceror's damage ability (make this dot also greatly lower resist of target, alowing soceror to deal more damage, meaning that they will work best when together).</P> <P>As for the problem with mage vs Scout,a new equation needs to be writtin! Mage=Scout>Fighter>Priest! The only reasion Scouts get slightly (and lets be honest, it is very slight) more defense than a mage is that to perform their = damage they are forced into melee range of mobs.</P> <P>[as a side note i think it would be fun to add Touch spells that require caster to be with in melee ranged but an added benefit of doing more damage for less power using this line of spells]</P> <P>To sum it up ina  simple prase, balancing needs to be done amongst the archetype! not cross archetypes! no overlaping!</P> <P>And to thoughs nay sayers that say "[Removed for Content] an Echanter cant be outdamageing my UBAH ZEKER! this is completely BS!" then you should make and enchanter and not complains so much!! just kidding, but yes, enchanters SHOULD be outdamaging  a berserker as a mage > fighter.</P> <P>There needs to be a simple mentality when thinking about the classes, it's all VERY symetrical:</P> <P>1/2 are ment for offense and 1/2 are ment for defense. Mage=Scout in damage because they are the damageing 1/2 of the spectum, while fighters and priest make up the deffensive 1/2. It's that simple when u get down to it. </P> <P>Now for the topic that allways seems so difficult, RAIDING</P> <P>"But Mr. , ima fighter, but im not the main tank, so ineed uber DPS or im worthless! Dont take my role from me!" Nope, sorry dude, fighters arent mentor for offense capabilities of mage/scout or else ever thing fall out of wack. Would you feel good if a priest took your role as MT for a raid? It's the exact same concept. Theirfor, what do u do the thoughs 5 more fighters who are "doing nothing now" in a raid??</P> <P>Easy..........so very easy that it should have been decided long ago.....so easy that it's partialy done in game now.... allow them to forma  fighting unit, sugested named : Battalion or a Phalanks<yes i spelled it wrong...to late at night to care :smileywink: ></P> <P>Ok here is my imaginary raid set up: 6 fighters,priest,mage,scouts (hey what do u know, thats all of the classes..24 classes...max of 24 people in raid...makes u go hmmm doesnt it?)</P> <P>Allow the group of 6 fighters to disperse the damage ammongst themselves. This makes the job of healing easier, as lighter armored brawlers wont take a full forced blow if they dont avoid it, lets say this:</P> <P>Random_uber_epic_mob_3125 does a attack that deals 2000 damage. as part of the "penalty" for banding together and dispersing damage, the total damage incoming is +25% more, so thats 2500 damage being divided among 6 players, which is 416, then that registers against mitigation and avoidance chance. If say a Brawler avoids it, thats 2500-416 so the hit's total is only 2100 or so, if a warrior has 60% mitigation, he only takes 166 damage, cuting off even more of the total, and all together it would be more effective than a single tank tanking.</P> <P>But what of valuably needed priest buffs that the tanks need?? Also simple, a right clickable option on ANY group wide buff that allows it to be spred accross the entire raid, but at the cost of 5 concentration. This alows priest/mages/bards to buff raid wide, but it will only be one buff per player.</P> <P>Another solution would be to make certain raid mobs more easly tankable by different tanks.</P> <P>Accurate heavy spike damage scout raid mobs would be best handled by warrior, heavy spike damage casters would be best handle by crusaders ( providing they give them a self ward that absobs a lot of spell damage) and finaly brawlers tanking fighter mobs that have unaccurate flurry attacks that negate targets mitigation, they hit up to 5 times increaseing power by 50% each hit (devistating to anyone who cant dodge them). </P> <P>Infact, i have posted on a different post about how a epic fight could contain the boss using ALL 4 archetypes in his fight depending on how he's doing, like if he is feeling confident since he's at full HP, the raid mob would focus on powerfull and accurate physical strikes (scout) but at 75% hp he relises physical just inst cutting it, so he switches to devistating magical damage (mage) which would require a crusaders knowlege of spell withstanding to survive, then at 50% hp the mob notices he's in trouble and would begin healing himself (this is when an enchanter's power drain would be needed, and i think powerdrains SHOULD be a viable raid tactic) - at this stage the devs need to trow in something fun and new, like say a stationary weapon that must be reached quickly to shoot the raid mob who has now flow up into the sky to heal himself and cause raid wide smiteing holy damage, to get to this weapon, someone would have to clime a wall dovered with tiny spiders that try to knock u off, mkae it so that the climer needs protection by ranged attackers to pick off the spiders so the climer can get to the weapon before the mob heals up to 74% (no going back to diferent modes for mob) perhaps make scouts faster climers, allowing them to get to the weapon the fastest and prevent the mob from regenerating to much hp. The mob would loose 10% hp from the weapon, and would resume fighting on group for 2 minutes after bing shot down before he flies up and needs to be shot down again. the weapon cant drop the mob below 25%. At this point (25% hp) the mob is desprit and frantic to survive! so he becomings a fighter, focusing primarily on defense, and his once accurate  single attacks are frantic flurries that negate armor (aka u need a brawler at this point to calmy avoid the raged blows) Also, at this point the mob would do devistating personal AOE attacks that would crush scouts, so they must fall back and rely on ranged damage (also, back when mob was a Mage, scouts could do exceptional damage, but casters coudlnt land spels since it was focusing on magic, but when mob was focus on physical strike (scout) the mages did excelent damage while scouts wernt quite as good, and when mob is a fighter the scouts would all perform poorly while mages would gain the uperhand in damage)</P> <P>This multi stage of fighting makes it feel more dynamic and realistic (though i know this wouldnt work with all mobs, such as mobs that are considered casters only, but on dragons and the like this would be very realistic, as we all know fighting styles can changes as battles progress and desperation takes hold)</P> <P>I want more interactive raid like this that require stratagy beoind simple buttion mashing, knowing when and what to do at crusal moments is important</P> <P>Took look further at some problems some might find with my design:</P> <P>Q: "nice and all, but how would you switch aggro between tanks without looseing one or having the raid wipe?" </P> <P>A: have each 25% stage render mob invulnerable, and wipe all prievious aggro, then the first one to reattack the mob will be first on aggro list (this would require cooperation form raid to hold there buttions!!)</P> <P>Q: Well if we can powerdrain raid mobs by the time they are 50% they wont have power to heal themselves, wont that make it trivial?</P> <P>A: at each 25% mark, the mob regains all power, and there power shouldnt be endless like nagy and vox of eq1, if we have limits (like the recient changes to certain items that need not be mentionsed) to ensure power is not a endless resource, so should mobs be subjegated to this rule.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To sum it all up:</DIV> <DIV>A) make mobs have same benefits/restrictions of players</DIV> <DIV>B) diversify mobs and tanking types</DIV> <DIV>C) Balance within the Archetype (and DPS isnt the end-all of balancing either, giving one sub-class offensive buffs and other defensive or enimy determental buffs that lower incoming damage is better than giving one more raw defense or offense)</DIV> <DIV>D) Allow tanks to combine their defensive purpose and disperse high damage attacks</DIV> <DIV>E) make staged raid fights that require different tactics at different times</DIV> <DIV>F)make raids more interactive than your normal "buttion masher"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>***G) I have not discused this in this post, but allow quests with aqequit reuse timers that grant app3/adept1/adept4/master2 quality of skill upgrades, high quality tougher fight (adep4 require x2 raid and master 2 a HARD x4 raid, that require a ton of thinking and puzle solveing to complete)***</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE reply to my ideas..they get skimmed over so many times it seems and it makes me feel like all this work goes down the drain :smileywink: "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll try to find my post on the questing for spell improvments... was in a reply to someone elses post a while back, quests are called "Training Quests" wich reward the participent(s) with improved skill/spell quality as the reward</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that was alot of info but it's just what your talking about here, and to add onto this, i think all priests sould have the exact same direct hp heal but with thoughs added little effects (like clerics adding to offense) to add diversity withough disrupting that healing ratio between the priests. Then make their "special" hea;s be more effecant than their direct heals, meaning depending on their tank, they could be average with their direct heals or wonderfuly effecant with their specials!!</DIV>

[Kroder]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashlian wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> As it stands now, I don't call it crippled or anything, except in raid situations (which are a completely different dynamic, I think they'll have to do more with kinds of raid targets for that, there's no way to balance them now given the way tanks work at all). There's always been certain classes that could do amazing things together, and I don't have a desire to see that disappear, but I do think all tanks should be able to tank effectively (raids included), all healers should heal effectively, all scouts and mages have similar dps and utility. You might go from good to great with a certain combo and that would be wonderful, but I don't want to see myself do the reverse and go from good to poor if I need to work with a particular kind of tank. </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 40 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P> <P>noticed I was missing a word :smileytongue:</P> <P>Message Edited by Ashlian on <SPAN class=date_text>06-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:14 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It also occurs to me, especially in a raid situation, that the three base healer types are meant to complement each other...</P> <P> </P> <P>If your main aggro group has a shaman type, a druid type, and a cleric type, all three can use their healing specialties, and all be very effective as an asset for the tanks.</P> <P>A ward, a reactive heal, and regen, all layered together, against high damage critters, would all be useful.</P> <P>Whenever the damage exceeded the ward, it would proc the reactive heal.  This would be underscored by the regen constantly rebuilding the tanks health underneath it all.</P> <P> </P> <P>It would seem that the priest classes, for this example's perspective, are meant to work together for high end encounters.  3 Priests, and 3 Tanks, making up an aggro management group.  Priests using the group versions of spells immediately before melee, and using whatever makes the most sense during it.</P> <P> </P> <P>(I always try to cast my group specialty immediately before a melee, so my power regen rebuilds my power in 2 seconds, long before I need to cast anything else.  During combat, the group versions of spells like that, take a major chunk of power, and I try to avoid using them unless I have no choice.)</P> <P><BR> </P>