Please adapt Heroic Opportunity so that no class is left behind

[Jor]

<DIV>hi !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A huge work has been made on Heroic Opportunity. I found them quite more enjoyable that at release time.</DIV> <DIV>Still I have a problem : HO are tailored to the archetype profile (mage, scout, etc...) and doesn't take into account that some subclass don't use the 'defined' archetype art or spell for HO starting and completing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example ? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conjurer : to start a HO (red thunder icon) you have only 1 (weak) DD spell (12th or 14th level ? never upgraded !)  + 1 fast DOT (which gets upgraded once and is fine). </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand, conjurer has tons of DOTs (red flame) or group damage (red star) or pet heal / buf, etc... Those are the real spells that a conjurer uses...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So a normal conjurer rarely, if ever uses its only DD (90dmg at most at level 40... yeah <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ). Okay, we use our fast DOT, but the large majority of spells we cast are our more potent, slower, DOT, or group damage spells. I'd say one fast DOT for 6 normal DOT + 1 pet heal or root. And none of the later starts the HO. Plus, they very rarely helps to further (finish?) it also. Which means if you want to use the HO as a conjurer, you have to artificially use a far underpowered nuke and stop casting your really usefull spells...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For me the HO mechanism is therefore broken for this class because it is not adapted to it's defining spells / arts. The higher you raise in level, the less you can use HO in an encounter...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Compare this that to a Warlock / Wizard whoses DD are the main spells...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying nerf the HO for those classes, they work fine (Well, I hope for them !) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV>I just say : in each class, adapt the 'HO icon' to better reflect the spells that each classes really gets... For instance it might mean putting the 'red thunder' HO starting icon on most conjurer DOTs for instance because those are the main spell, not the lonely fast DOT or the 14th level DD...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess there are other classes that have this problem (Necro of course ?) ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS : not a native english speaker ; sorry for the langage ;b</DIV>

[Rijacki]

A better arguement is that most HOs, especially the solo ones, don't really scale at all to be worth the power cost of the 2 spells or CAs you need to trigger and complete... for -all- classes.  It's not the lack of spells or CAs of the right types (you said yourself you have fast casters of the type.. better than some of the slow casters of other classes), it's that the pay-off for the trouble doesn't seem worth the bother most of the time.  If the pay-off for completing was greater, you wouldn't begrudge saving a hotkey spot for a low, on it's own, damage spell. <div></div>

[Jor]

<DIV>Well I called them 'fast DOT' because they are short duration DOT, not 'fast-casting' spells <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> All in all they are more akin to a DD spell than a real DOT... (In fact, I'd rather say conjurer spells, mostly DOTS are slow.... casting spells. Imagine a stun spells that's 4 or 5s casting time and stops the mob for 4 or 5s...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're probably right about the problem on HO scalability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still I want to stress out that for some classes, the spells required to start and then finish the HO are not on the class defining spell lists.. Which mean you have to cast near useless spells to use HO.  I see this as a design problem, which should be corrected with the new combat system</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Jorun on <SPAN class=date_text>05-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:02 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Jorun on <span class=date_text>05-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[Tanla]

<P>I agree with the scalability issue. In fact, I think one of the things that makes pre-20s soloing possible, and post 20s soloing hardly worth doing is that the farther past 20 you get the less useful solo HOs become in general. By mid-30s they seem to be little more than weak damage adds, and again, hardly worth the power of completeing them.</P> <P>On the other side of the coin, I understand the point of not wanting to make combat, especially higher level combat, too easy by having extremely powerful solo HOs. Maybe there is a compromise, like have more powerful but more complicated (i.e. more steps less time) HOs for higher levels...</P> <P>Just my two cents.</P>

[PIexor]

<DIV>Be glad that your spell is at least usefull, all fighter solo HO's need to be completed with taunts, which is a waste of power, since who is te mob going to agro except you or is he going to run away otherwise?</DIV>

[Jor]

<P>Lol I didn't realise this one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Ok taunt on solo is really useless !</P>

[katalmach]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PIexor wrote:<BR> <DIV>Be glad that your spell is at least usefull, all fighter solo HO's need to be completed with taunts, which is a waste of power, since who is te mob going to agro except you or is he going to run away otherwise?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's not really a waste of power. The fighter's taunt must be one of the least power-costing skills in the game. The way I see it, you get bonus damage (the HO) for doing a skill that costs next to nothing of your power. Also, when NOT soloing, doing HOs is a great way to hold aggro! Why just stand there and taunt, when you can do an HO which will taunt AND do damage?</P> <P>And for high level fighters, there are taunts that do damage, damage over time, stuns and interrupts - so the fact that we have to use them to finish HOs is a blessing, not a curse. We get to use a skill that is power-efficient, helps us do our job (hold aggro) and that, if you so wish and are of high enough level, has some pretty cool side effects.</P> <P>However, I agree with the OP. One of my characters is a necromancer, and I really hate it whenever the star HO comes up.. it just doesn't work very well - I don't have very many star spells! (Of course, my necromancer is only in her mid-twenties, so it mihgt get better eventually for all I know). I wish that HOs were bound to and changed with your subclass rather than your core class - why do all fighters/scouts/mages/priests have to have the same HO? Despite belonging to the same core class, the subclasses are sometimes vastly different..</P>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>YubiMusubi wrote: <blockquote> <hr> PIexor wrote: <div>Be glad that your spell is at least usefull, all fighter solo HO's need to be completed with taunts, which is a waste of power, since who is te mob going to agro except you or is he going to run away otherwise?</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>It's not really a waste of power. The fighter's taunt must be one of the least power-costing skills in the game. The way I see it, you get bonus damage (the HO) for doing a skill that costs next to nothing of your power. Also, when NOT soloing, doing HOs is a great way to hold aggro! Why just stand there and taunt, when you can do an HO which will taunt AND do damage?</p> <p>And for high level fighters, there are taunts that do damage, damage over time, stuns and interrupts - so the fact that we have to use them to finish HOs is a blessing, not a curse. We get to use a skill that is power-efficient, helps us do our job (hold aggro) and that, if you so wish and are of high enough level, has some pretty cool side effects.</p> <p>However, I agree with the OP. One of my characters is a necromancer, and I really hate it whenever the star HO comes up.. it just doesn't work very well - I don't have very many star spells! (Of course, my necromancer is only in her mid-twenties, so it mihgt get better eventually for all I know). I wish that HOs were bound to and changed with your subclass rather than your core class - why do all fighters/scouts/mages/priests have to have the same HO? Despite belonging to the same core class, the subclasses are sometimes vastly different.. </p><hr></blockquote> It's tied to the core archetype because it is given at 5th or 6th level.  It's also tied to the archetype so that it can be more simplistic and not have to statisfy every possible permutation of sub-class combination. I would love to see that spell, the starter, replaced by a newer version at 20 (with the starter and solo more geared to the specific sub-class) which can start higher damage/buff finishers.  I think it would be worthwhile if there was then an improvement to that one at 35, and 50 (i.e. every 15 levels).</span><div></div>

[Troodon]

<span><blockquote><hr>YubiMusubi wrote:[snip[ <p>And for high level fighters, there are taunts that do damage, damage over time, stuns and interrupts - so the fact that we have to use them to finish HOs is a blessing, not a curse. We get to use a skill that is power-efficient, helps us do our job (hold aggro) and that, if you so wish and are of high enough level, has some pretty cool side effects.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Not for all of us, as a Paladin Im limited to using direct taunts to complete HOs, though I avoid burning power while soloing by making use of the lowest level taunt I have. I would imagine only Warriors have taunts with damage etc side effects.</span><div></div>

[Aegori]

<P>Another issue i take with HOs is their overall effect. They are, for the most part, useful in many respects. However, they can also be a tremendous disservice in many situations. For example, take the simple Fighter HO, Crushing Anvil. It's a simple AE that deals crushing damage to each mob in an encounter. It sure sounds useful until it breaks a bunch of mezzes, stuns, stifles, roots, whatever that you dont want it to break. At the point when one comes up, you're stuck either waiting it out to cancel itself, or pray you have a scout in your group that can flip it. It would honestly be a lot more beneficial IMHO to see more buff type effects and single target DDs rather than effects that can possibly have adverse affects on your group. </P> <P>Just my 2cp</P> <P>-Aeg</P>

[Claritin]

<DIV>It would be nice if a scout could flip an HO and have it be different than it was before a higher % of the time also... I hate being told FLIP IT... and I do... and it's the exact same one.  It really sucks when you get a buff HO.. and you just got that buff the last time so you REALLY don't want it... and so you decide to use like say EVADE solo... lowering your threat even though you are still the only one with threat to flip the HO only to still have the same buff.... well I don't want that buff... I mean I love it at the start of a fight... but if I am getting ready to finish a kill or something I don't want it...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another buff I love that is not solo is resonating cascade... but on araid I hate seeing it come up 4 times in a row... it's nice... yes... but if I only needed to cast it once and flipping it does me little good... it's a waste of my power to advance it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also hate when your only choice for an HO is something with a HUGE cast time... or you need 1 class to do 2 icons in the same HO but have the same amount of time... well that pretty much ruins an HO a good chunk of the time.... Resonating cascade is one of these... thankfully I'm often on raids in a group with multiple scouts... but that's not always the case... nor should SoE consider it "the norm"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also detest HO's that call for me to buff my team to advance the HO... it happens more on my priests (Fury, Defiler) than on my troub... but I hate it on all of them.</DIV>

[Bi]

troubs also only get 2 real 'flip' songs for raids Lores line.. which is nice to advance say.. lucks bite - but then if its not a HO you want, you have EVADE or just wait it out. Bria's Exalting balad is 150pwr to cast, as well as a conc slot; cheap shot does not effect heroic targets. one of my major beefs as a troub is that the only moderately interesting part of the game is ridiculously difficult. Resonating cascade is ok - but should be a grp buff, rather than a solo one. Also sort out who gets the buff. It pains me to see myself get resonating cascade over the mage. surely everyone involved in the HO, or the grp should get it. <div></div>

[Diern]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PIexor wrote:<BR> <DIV>Be glad that your spell is at least usefull, all fighter solo HO's need to be completed with taunts, which is a waste of power, since who is te mob going to agro except you or is he going to run away otherwise?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats why, when im solo I use the Lv 10 taunt herions challange. it costs insignificant mana, its faster than normal taunt and allows me to complete more HO's, its invaluable. and without HO's I would be far from efficient at soloing.</DIV>

[snipes]

<P>I always thought a good idea with HO 's  would be to have stats take into account what happens. For instance they could make it where say  the wisdom and intelligence of the character determines the chances of getting a rare ho. In group situations and group HO's it could take into account the collective int and wis of the whole group. Also adding a critical hit to HO's ( does more dmg then normal/ if its a buff make it last longer), this again could be determined by stats of a group or character.</P> <P> </P> <P>Daedan</P>