End Game Itemization / Instance Risk vs. Reward Woes:

[Aegori]

<DIV> <DIV>First off, i'm gonna <IMG src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/pamccar/deadhorse3.gif"> myself, because i kno... it's been beaten to a bloody pulp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, i'm not sure a reasonable solution has come to light yet. So i'm starting this thread, which will hopefully spawn some constructive feedback regarding the end game itemization issues an risk vs reward of instanced raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's my idea regarding the issue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off, I wholly believe that itemization is the key to both of these issues. Lets look back at EQ1. When you raided something that was significant risk, the reward was usually something that someone could use as an upgrade. Lets focus on that premise and apply it to EQ2. The first step in the change i propose is to expand the chest system to include 3 different types of master chests: Copper, Silver and Gold chests. Instances would remain at their current timers and would be guaranteed to drop one of those types of chests. Here's where itemization comes in. What EQ2 lacks is any kind of progression of items for players. Currently, my main is a Guardian. The logical progression for a simple lvl 50 BP for me is:</DIV> <UL> <LI>Ebon BP = 536 AC</LI> <LI>Flame-Tested Mail = 634 AC</LI> <LI>Shimmering Star BP = 771 AC</LI> <LI>Lizarscale Chestguard = 861 AC</LI></UL> <P>So what we see here is that in 50 levels, from simple crafting a person should be able to achieve 536 AC. The upgrades to that increase a player 325 AC once you can achieve the raids it takes to attain them. The average change between upgrades is around 100 AC. Where's the progression in that? 536 AC in 50 levels, then jump 100 AC per tier of upgrade? Yes, there are other BPs out there that are kind of inbetweens of these, but honestly... they are few and far between. I do believe that 861 is a reasonable number to end up at, but i simply believe the progression is off. </P> <P>With the implementation of the three master types, you can simply use each chest type as a progressionary point. From lowest quality of chest (copper) to highest (gold), each master chest would drop fabled items that have a distinct progression. Of course, the higher along that progression, the rarer the chest (so copper would be common, silver semi-rare and gold rare). Lets apply this concept to a generalized BP dropped from one of the lowest level instances (CL, Fire/Ice) that a guild would attempt:</P> <UL> <LI>Highest Level Crafted BP = 536AC</LI> <LI>Raid Instance Copper Fabled = 570 AC (slight stat bump)</LI> <LI>Raid Instance Silver Fabled = 600 AC (decent stat bump)</LI> <LI>Raid Instance Gold Fabled = 630AC  (significant stat bump, perhaps an affect)</LI></UL> <P>Given that you're guaranteed one of these drops every time, you are pretty much guaranteed an upgrade to someone in the raid (given that you haven't been farming the same raids for ages and already have all the upgrades). As a MT, i would gladly take a 25AC small upgrade from a raid. It's not much, but it will definitely help and it will keep me interested in raiding that instance to see if i can get the better upgrades. As you get to the tougher raid instances, the quality of items that you could possibly attain would increase so you could progress even further up the chain. This would not only create a distinct progression of power for each character, but it would keep many interested in raid instances in the fact that they are guaranteed some kind of upgrade to someone in the raid. You've just created re-playability for tons of instances that people now view as pointless drudgery.</P> <P>That's my basic idea. I would love to hear opinions as well as other ideas in this thread so we can finally give the devs something concrete to base their raid loot mechanics on. We all know it's off, so lets give them whatever help we can.</P> <P>-Aeg</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Aegorian on <span class=date_text>05-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 PM</span>

[stoutbrewdrink]

<DIV>theres crafted BPs with 640 ish ac and good stats. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for the 861 ac bp, it is no longer that much ac. when they changed it they scaled all the ac down way back when, there is no bp over 640ish ac in hte game atm.</DIV>

[Aegori]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <DIV>theres crafted BPs with 640 ish ac and good stats. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for the 861 ac bp, it is no longer that much ac. when they changed it they scaled all the ac down way back when, there is no bp over 640ish ac in hte game atm.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>drats! foiled by ogaming info again! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> fair enough... the BP was really just an example tho. You could really apply the theory of my progression to any item and that's what i'd really like to see. Just to be able to raid and receive something every time that would be a guaranteed upgrade to a base level of gear (my base is T5 crafted gear). This way i would feel more like raiding because there's a chance that i get something more effective each and every time i raid as opposed to getting the freekin wooden chest of doom that makes everyone die a little inside. Something with a little more stats, and effect and/or specialized stats would go a long way in keeping the community working hard to better their characters IMHO.</P> <P>Thanks for the info... i appreciate it!</P> <P>-Aeg</P>

[Jezekie]

<div></div>I'd rather see static loot tables like they had in EQ1, instead of this randomness which really just is anoying. Also get rid of the non-fabled items, except the T5 rare craftables. And add rhodiums replacements or just pure rhodiums to the loot tables. Also, in regards to your ideas I really think it's a bad idea. People would be holding out for the rare drops, so they wouldn't want to have the lesser drops at all knowing that the rare is possible to get. Especially if you're running a dkp system. And it seems kinda pointless to have 3 sepperate items ranging in quality from the same encounter. So raid_mob1 would be able to drop 3 differnt leggins, 3 differnt bps, 3 differnt helms, ect. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jezekiell on <span class=date_text>05-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:58 PM</span>

[Azeda]

<P>I agree there are some serious issues with epic encounter drops right now.  Those issues are drop rates and loot tables.  </P> <P>1.  Drop rates:  </P> <P>The master drop rate for masters seems like a very low percentage, I remember getting a master almost every night, and now we are lucky to get one a week.  I'm on the fence about upping the re-entry timer while also upping the drop rates.  I want increased drop rates, but if they up re-entry timers ... most level 50s will get bored if they have to wait 6 days to raid.  Some of us still have heritage quests to do ... but others don't.</P> <P>2.  Loot tables:  </P> <P>I don't know about the 3 tiers of fabled items suggested above ... I agree that people would hold out for the gold items and the bronze and silver would end up vender junk.  I would like to see expanded loot tables with more variety of item drops ... meaning more items for more classes ... lately all I see are warrior weapons or armor.  I hate to say it .. being a healer ... but I rarely see anything useful for the caster classes.  I don't remember the last time I saw L or VL armor drop.  Maybe set up a loot table for each epic mob where there are say ... a weapon and 2 potential pieces of armor for each class that have a chance of dropping.  Then at least there would be some hope for some of the other classes.  Another idea would be to have an epic mob drop items for a specific set of classes.  For example:  Epic mob A drops items for scouts and warriors and Epic mob B drops items for priests and casters.  Just a thought.</P> <P> </P> <P>I don't know if I made any sense, I was kinda rambling and its early.  Anyway ... raiding is 99% of the content for level 50s right now ... and as it stands raiding is tedious and boring with no rewards.  I don't know about all the other high end raiding guilds but we have seen alot of turnover in our membership and alot of good players quit due to boredom and frustration.  SOE needs to realize that alot of people play this game to get to the end game raids ... but if nothing is there for them to do ... they will spend their money to play another game.</P> <P>Personally ... the only reason I haven't quit is because of my guild.  They are a great bunch of people and I enjoy playing with them.  I don't play EQ2 for EQ2 ... I play for my friends, but if this keeps up ... I won't have any friends left in EQ2, and therefore no reason to pay my monthly fee.  </P>

[Aegori]

<DIV>How bout implementation of some high lvl 50 quests that supplement end game raid loot? Create lengthy quests (call em mini-epics) from certain NPCs that require you to kill certain raid mobs for better quest rewards that would be useful as end game gear. To be honest, something as simple as another set of armor quests like we had at level 20 that would upgrade our gear a bit more would keep people occupied at least a bit longer. Anything to create more non-raid content that would be worthwhile to lvl 50 people would be outstanding at this point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aeg</DIV>

[Big Da]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aegorian wrote:<BR> <DIV>How bout implementation of some high lvl 50 quests that supplement end game raid loot? Create lengthy quests (call em mini-epics) from certain NPCs that require you to kill certain raid mobs for better quest rewards that would be useful as end game gear. To be honest, something as simple as another set of armor quests like we had at level 20 that would upgrade our gear a bit more would keep people occupied at least a bit longer. Anything to create more non-raid content that would be worthwhile to lvl 50 people would be outstanding at this point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aeg</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This would again bring forth the "we all have the same gear nothing is unique crowd"

[Andre]

<DIV>Highest and better item in game should be created by crafter with using of ultrarare dropped components...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw. Recipe for it should not be ultrarare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[KornRollKid]

i find it odd when ppl post and in the first line of their example they qoute EQ1 which this game is not.

[Big Da]

Maybe as a basis for comparison they should talk about Star Wars Lego? :smileytongue:

[Aegori]

<P>"i find it odd when ppl post and in the first line of their example they qoute EQ1 which this game is not. "</P> <P>find it odd all you want, but taking working CONCEPTS from other MMOs is totally natural. I'm not asking raids and/or anything else to be just like EQ1. I'm not asking em to bring EQ1 items into the game. I'm asking them to look at the risk.reward concept in EQ1 and think that way when developing a loot concept for EQ2. That model has worked for years and continues to.</P> <P>-Aeg</P><p>Message Edited by Aegorian on <span class=date_text>05-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>