Heres why tanks arent balanced

[Blackdog183]

<DIV>Ok I know that this issue has been beaten over time and time again, so why not 1 more round right.  This kinda got me a little peeved when people in the forums call me wrong when I tell them that certain classes get a better bonus for stats.  Its been shown that they do, but I will show some fresh screenies(taken about 15 mins ago) of myself and a 44 zerker.  Make your own conclusions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my char, bio/info is availabel at <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=209387114" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=209387114</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heres a screenie of my char, with stats etc...</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/image_view.vm?imageId=353070#" target=_blank><IMG height=555 alt="" src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/694/539.jpg" width=290 border=0></A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=264592114" target=_blank></A> </DIV> <DIV>Now heres the screenie of the level 44 zerker...His bio is located at <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=264592114" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=264592114</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/image_view.vm?imageId=353087#" target=_blank><IMG height=547 alt="" src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/694/513.jpg" width=289 border=0></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you can see the following is true:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. I have far better stats in all of them...</DIV> <DIV>2.My gear is equal to or better than his in every single slot(he has some green gear etc)</DIV> <DIV>3. He has MORE hps than I do with lesser stats/gear</DIV> <DIV>4. He has almost as much mitigation as I do with lower stats/gear</DIV> <DIV>5. He has almost as much avoidance with FAR less AGI and NO SHIELD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a warrior class with FAR lesser stats, comparable to lesser gear and no shield on that has damned near matching stats with a higher level better equipped BUFFED shadowknight.  Who can honestly sit there and say there isnt something wrong with that.  I ask SoE this, is your intention that gear doesent mean a damned thing in determining who is the better tank.  I mean cmon, this dudes stats are HELLA low compared to mine and he has MORE hps?  what the heck is that all about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please discuss folks.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Birdrunn]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I believe you, but that's because even Moorguard has said your right.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Check this link out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=15538" target=_blank>Permanent Tanking Inequality?</A></FONT></DIV>

[Rijacki]

Your hit points are 4242 and his are 4227... and you see his as "MORE" than yours?  *blink* But... to address your feelings of inadequacy: A shadowknight has spells and combat arts which deliver a no-power cost instant damage (i.e. harm touch), a feign death for a group member (i.e. graven embrace), a brief pet (i.e. tainted sacrament), lifetaps (i.e. consume vitae), etc A 'zerker has combat arts which increase his damage rate and damage amount (i.e. virtually all of them).  No heals, no instant no power attacks (and yes I know the shadowknight one has a looooong recast), no feign death for anyone, no pets, no lifetaps or other way to gain healing for himself or any party member. So..... are they equal?  no.  Are they balanced if you -only- look at the stats of their hit points, mitigation, avoidance, and the like? no.  Are they balanced if you look at them as a whole and realise the shadowknight has a heck of a lot more variety in what he can do? YES This goes for the brawlers and paladins, too.  Each of the fighter classes is different.  If you look at one isolated aspect it will -appear- they are not balanced, but if you look at the totality of what they bring to the group, they are. I play a paladin as my adventuring main.  She is now 32 (with combat XP disabled most of the time).  I tank.  In fact I have been told by more than a few healers that I tank better than the 'zerks or guardians they have grouped with mostly because I actually DO use all of my tools. Do I want paladins "balanced" so they can be guardians or beserkers?  Heck no! <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>he has a point..going by stats he should be blowing that Bers out of the water. Thats sad and theres no excuse for that.  How can u sit there and justify that its ok because he has 13 or so more hit points than the bers? give me a break. That SK has 67 more sta points than the Bers. SIXTY SEVEN.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And here we go with the DPS. You dont even know what you 're talking about. SK's and bers are very close on DPS. Evac makes no difference in combat because almost all grps worth their salt have a scout of a mage type that can evac. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're a lvl 30ish Paly, eh? Again, give me a break. What do you know about Paladins yet? You are only half way there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is no matter what skills they have. The difference in numbers should be huge. If not whats the point of stats? you might as well trash them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 PM</span>

[hardwi]

<DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=98525" target=top><SPAN>uzhiel feathered serpent</SPAN></A><BR></DIV> <DIV>� </DIV> <DIV>You're a lvl 30ish Paly, eh? Again, give me a break. What do you know about Paladins yet? You are only half way there.</DIV> <DIV>� </DIV> <DIV>--------------------�  You had me up till this... um When the max lvl is 100 are you going to admit you didn't know what you were talking about @ lv 50?�  " Halfway" :smileywink:</DIV></DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>NO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...because right now I have a ton more experience playing my char than a lvl 30ish paly. Experience comes in lvls. If a lvl 84 paladin compared his numbers to a lvl 84 Berserker and said it was screwed up i woould not presume to tell the Sk he was wrong, based on my 50 lvls. </DIV>

[Rijacki]

I was pointing out the utilities of the shadowknight, the other tools in the form of spell lines, he has in relation to the 'zerk.  The 'zerk has a single solitary purpose and a single focus to his combat arts (faster and more damage).  The 'zerk -does- get more HP and mitigation and whatnot from his stats than a shadowknight because of the focused purpose.  The same holds true for paladins. THAT is what I was saying, not that I am an authority on paladins or even on level 50 raiding.  But.. I assure you, I know my role in raids as a paladin is most likely not to be a tank.  I have vastly more tools than those who solely stand there and get hit.  When I am in a group with a guardian or 'zerk that is about my same level and has decent gear (mine is admittedly more than decent), I am all for him being the one getting the beating with me pulling a secondary role which usually involves off-tanking and some healing.  I routinely, though, duo with another paladin or trio with the same paladin and a templar.  Of us, I tank because I have the mindset for paladin -group- tanking.  Paladins and Shadow Knights have a completely different focus and utility than Guardians and Beserkers.  Monks and Bruisers are also different.  If you compare ONLY one aspect and not the whole, you will see inequities.  If you look at the whole, you will see more balance.  <div></div>

[Ethelwo]

<P>I call Pure Bull Scat on this. I have L48 Berserker with good gear. I can only get my Hps that high if I stack all my self buffs, and thats at L48. That Berserker is buffed up by another in his group. No way a 44 zerker can get that many Hps with self buffs even if he stacked all 3. I can only hit that at L48 by stacking the 4 I have. I got a new one at L47. Its adept 3 too. </P> <P>Your Hps are unbuffed and his are buffed. Pure Bull Scat. Berserkers got the lowest Hps of all the plate classes minus their self buffs.</P>

[Amise]

<div></div><div></div>According to the profiles you have about 1k hitpoints more than him with both of you unbuffed. He does not have "almost as much avoidance".  There's a 9% difference there, which is somewhat more significant than you seem to think. What exactly are you complaining about, that he was better buffed than you?  Did you even look at the profiles?  They've basically made a fool out of your entire post because it's clear you didn't really think it through before you posted it. <div></div><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Amise on <span class=date_text>05-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:26 PM</span>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> <P>I call Pure Bull Scat on this. I have L48 Berserker with good gear. I can only get my Hps that high if I stack all my self buffs, and thats at L48. That Berserker is buffed up by another in his group. No way a 44 zerker can get that many Hps with self buffs even if he stacked all 3. I can only hit that at L48 by stacking the 4 I have. I got a new one at L47. Its adept 3 too. </P> <P>Your Hps are unbuffed and his are buffed. Pure Bull Scat. Berserkers got the lowest Hps of all the plate classes minus their self buffs.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Bullscat eh, look at my Mit number, see how its green, that because I was buffed, look at his, UNBUFFED, hence while, and we had no healer or troub class in the group, so guess what, no hp buff or AC buff from a healer.  Only thing I had on me was my self buffs and gift of armament from a pally friend.  So BS that my friend.</P> <P>He was invited to the group, but on the OTHER SIDE OF THE MAP when I examined him, was curious to see what DW weapons he was using when I noticed his stats/hps/ac ratio.</P> <P> </P> <P>As far as the BS little argument about utility/variety...</P> <P>Yes SK's do get lifetaps, that heal me for less than 2% of my total unbuffed hitpoints(about 4k) for well upwards of 130 power cost(IE way too expensive given the return)</P> <P>Yes SK's do get wards, that actually prevent about 100 points of damage, for over 150 power cost.</P> <P>Yes SK's get Harm touch line, with its rediculous timer and the fact that mobs resist it well over 75% of the time.</P> <P>Yes SK's get scrwed out of of ANY benifit of a ranged slot item</P> <P>Yes SK's get less stats PER POINT than warriors....making the fact that we are better geared(harder worked on) mean approx zero.</P> <P>Yes we get a pet that we can summon during battle, yes the 2nd version is a decent pet, I wont deny that for a second, even if it went broken by the devs for over a month.</P> <P>As to our young pally friend, first off, your low level ,your just starting into T4, ALOT and i do mean ALOT of things change as you progress towards the endgame.  I will simply say this, do try to keep your ill advised and quite frankly unknowledgable comments to yourself.  Unless youve spent the 10+ plat on gear and spells that I have to be matched in stats by some dude running around in a few pieces of ebon armor and the rest is junk to be honest, without even having a shield on...then please dont talk.  The entire point of hat im saying is this, gear and stats SHOULD make a huge differnce between tanks, even of diff archtypes, I mean cmon theres a huge gap in our stats, why in the hell should he be even comin close to me in anything....simple, he shouldnt.  You cant really use the utility or variety argument one bit, because honestly if SK's would get fixed, Id be inclined to agree /w you on that point, but as it stands right now, the power costs on our so called utility/variety whatever u wanna call em spells is entirely out of line.</P> <P>Also, Your a paladin, you might not mind so much that your stats are outdone by someone in lesser gear with lesser str, sta, agi, wis, and int because you have those nifty little heals that will heal for upwards of 1k at 42(btw my best friend is 43 pally and heals me all the time, i know what can be done).  I dont get even close to that, my MOST powerful lifetap(consume vitae ad3) gives me back a whopping 89 HPS, thats right 89.  Thats pretty damned crappy considering that one imparticular costs 116 power.  Starting to understand now where the imbalance is?  This has gone on for months, and SoE just hasnt realized yet that all tanks want is equality, not sameness, but equality.  Meaning that a player who spends that 10+ plat on his gear, has several master spells, and AD3's and not a damned one spell below ad1 SHOULD be the better tank, not the guy withhalf decent gear and app IV spells be the better tank because SoE makes it so.  That ultimatly folks is the problem.</P> <p>Message Edited by Blackdog183 on <span class=date_text>05-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:32 PM</span>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amise wrote:<BR> According to the profiles you have about 1k hitpoints more than him with both of you unbuffed.<BR><BR>He does not have "almost as much avoidance".  There's a 9% difference there, which is somewhat more significant than you seem to think.<BR><BR>What exactly are you complaining about, that he was better buffed than you?  Did you even look at the profiles?  They've basically made a fool out of your entire post because it's clear you didn't really think it through before you posted it.<BR> <P><BR><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Amise on <SPAN class=date_text>05-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:26 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Just so you have no trouble with the math...</P> <P>4211-3871=340  That a long way away from 1k now isnt it.</P> <P>Guess where the majority of that avoidance differnce comes from, that thing on my back called a shield, if he had one on that was even half decent his avoidance is within 3% of mine, not such a big diff now is it.</P> <P>So whos the fool?</P>

[Anlari]

<P>*laughs*</P> <P>You always just seem to sound like the fool there Blackdog.  Sorry you don't like your class.  Perhaps you should try a Guardian, then you would complain about the difference in damage a guardian does vs. a bruiser.  Your one of those people who would complain if they gave everyone free money, you included.</P>

[SavinDwa]

<P>Blackdog,</P> <P>I'm just a lowly level 31 Ranger, so perhaps you can explain a few things to me.  I looked at the stats of the two characters.  The shadowknight is going to fare much better in any battle unless I'm missing something.  Ignoring everything else the two keys are mitigation follwoed by hit points.  if the two of you were facing the exact same mob and they were a tank type you would get hit bout 35% of the time and he would egt hit about 45% of the time (100 - the mitigation).  So he will take about 25-30% more damage than you.  So when he dies you would still have had about 800-900 hit points left.  If we expand that because you are getting heals the same ratio will still hold.  So in effect you have 20% more hit points than he does (mitigation and hitpoints).  if we take into account other types of atatck for the most part your resists are way above his.  </P> <P> </P> <P>What am I missing?  Does mitigation not work like this?</P>

[Cheshirepezk]

<P align=center>now boys, all I have to say is fear not, its obvious for the most part this game caters to tanks... don't worry if there's a prob, I'm sure your class is one of the top on the fix list; and casters being on the lower part... sad really</P> <P align=center> but go ahead flame away</P>

[Ethelwo]

<P>Heal and wards amount to one thing and that is hit points. Buffs add HPs before the fight and wards and heals add HPs during the fight. A heal is nothing more then a HP buff it just works in a different way. I had this same problem with a Pally, He was all worried about HPs after buffs and I told him you got heals baby you can add your HPs back on during the fight. Berserker has not one heal or ward. What we have before the fight is all we get. Berserker HP buffs are all group buffs. You want an extra 900 Hps group with a Berserker who triple stacks his buffs. If you want more then 1k extra HP group with a berserker who can quad stack his buffs. The point I am making is that whatever extra HPs a berserker has, the whole group gets as well. Can you ward the group and heal the group, or can you only take care of yourself with those skills. </P> <P>Why are you wearing journymens boots? They dont have any stamina at all. A good pair of black ebon platemail tonlets will increase your Hps by over 150. The gear you wear makes a difference. My Berserker may not have maximum Hps, but I made the choice to increase my avoidance instead. That means wearing gear with max agility over gear with max stamina. You choose what to wear, the whole argument is pointless. You want more Hps chuck the Jboots and wear something else instead, also maximize the stamina on all your gear. You may lose some mitigation  and avoidance, but trade offs are trade offs.</P> <P> </P>

[Reidas]

For the record you avoidance is far better than mine (42 Ranger)  I have 180 Agi self buffed and my avoidance is 60.4%  I gaurentee your Mitigation far exceedes mine.  Now I understand I'm not a tank and I don't expect to be but keep in mind even a 3% bump in avoidance is huge.  Going form 138agi to 180 agi gives me a whopping 1% increase in Avoidance.  <div></div>

[DarkRenown]

<P>Ummm just a question, no flaming intended.</P> <P>It was my nuderstanding, that the figures for Mitigation and Avoidance, are not final. They depend on your level.</P> <P>He is a level 44 Zerker, so against a Level 44 Solo creature, they are his Mit and Avoidance stats.</P> <P>You are a level 46 SK, so your Mit and Avoidance figures are against Level 46 Solo creatures.</P> <P>If you both fought a Level 46 creature, then yoru Mit/Av would remain the same, but his, in effect, would actually be far lower due to the level difference.</P> <P>As for HPS, yes he is buffed, so are you, and you have more. No argument with that. In fact, when he hits your level, he will probably have more than you, but you have other abilities to offset this (before you flame, I know they suck, but you have them).</P> <DIV>That was my understanding of Avoidance and Mitigation though.</DIV>

[roarfrost]

<DIV>*sigh* No one will be happy until all classes are exactly the same. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rijacki]

If your comparison was a shadow knight to a paladin then I would fully and completely agree that the shadow knight has issues and is not "equal".  Yes, I am aware that several shadow knight spells and combat arts don't work as they should.  Getting THAT rectified is what you should be spending energy on, not trying to get your stats to match a 'zerker.  Shadow knights are the other side of the coin from paladins.  Those 2 classes should be pretty comparable just with opposing effect.  The 2 types of crusaders should be "balanced" against each other since they are supposed to, more or less, fill the same niche, just from differing philosophies. Spells and combat arts (and all in-game items) should match their description.  Oh.. and as for level... The "balancing" should come from the lowest levels and be disseminated through the top.  There shouldn't be drastic changes at thus and so level. <div></div>

[Helt]

<P>Rijacki - you are  100% right.</P> <P>Not to mention their are numerous ways to inhance your character. I choose STA everytime I get a chance and almost always I have more HP's than any other tank my level or higher (sometimes).</P> <P>Helton</P>

[Blackdog183]

<P>Ok ladies and Gents, I think some of you kinda missed the point of what I was getting at.  A while ago moorgard had said that pretty much a tanks gear/stats/upgrades would play into what quality of tank he/she is.  This proves that statement is pretty much false.  For the record NO, most tanks dont want all tank classes to be the exact same, what they DO want is balance.  That balance doesent exist right now.  SoE is doing a combat system revamp, and in the process pretty much reworking everything about the way we fight.  I put this out there so that hopefully they will see the current problem.  A tank that spends a crapload of time and money into his char should be a FAR better tank than someone who doesent, regardless of class.  The tank with better stats by far should have more avoidance, more hps and more power by alot.  Theres a 50 point(or so im not looking at the exact number atm) difference between his stats and mine, that should mean a big difference in stats.  Im higher level, which means I can utilize more of the AC off the gear I am wearing(as im closer to the mastery end of the gear), my AC should be a far cry better.  Can anyone honestly say that isnt how it should be.</P> <P>Once again, IF and this is a pretty friggen big IF SoE would actually make SK skills worthwhile, then ya maybe it wouldnt matter so much.  Guess what tho, its taken 100's if not thousands of posts on a single SK skill being BROKEN COMPLETLY to even get them to acknowledge it.  Another one that went broken for 4 months they never did acknowledge, they just stealth fixed it and never said a word.  Hopefully people can begin to realize the problem isnt that all tanks should be the same, no that would be very boring.  The problem is that a tank with far better gear should be a far better tank, plain and simple.</P> <P> </P>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rijacki wrote:<BR>If your comparison was a shadow knight to a paladin then I would fully and completely agree that the shadow knight has issues and is not "equal".  Yes, I am aware that several shadow knight spells and combat arts don't work as they should.  Getting THAT rectified is what you should be spending energy on, not trying to get your stats to match a 'zerker.  <BR><BR>Shadow knights are the other side of the coin from paladins.  Those 2 classes should be pretty comparable just with opposing effect.  The 2 types of crusaders should be "balanced" against each other since they are supposed to, more or less, fill the same niche, just from differing philosophies.<BR><BR>Spells and combat arts (and all in-game items) should match their description.  <BR><BR>Oh.. and as for level... The "balancing" should come from the lowest levels and be disseminated through the top.  There shouldn't be drastic changes at thus and so level.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lets not even get started on pally/SK balance, cause we all know it isnt even close, and would just turn into a huge argument.  As far as workin on getting spells.combat arts for SK fixed, trust me on this one, weve been down that road with the devs.  Even getting them to admit theres a problem is like pulling teeth.  Getting them to actually fix is it near impossible.  Look at graven embrace, its timer went broken for 4 months.  Look at the tainted essense spells, they went completly broken for well over a month, almost 2.  Every single problem that Shadowknigts have brought to the table has gone unfixed for a long period of time.  So yes, Rijacki its not lack of effort on our part.</P> <P>I dont want my stats to match a zerker, by no stretch of the word is that what I want.  They shouldnt even have been close, as I have far better AGI/STA my stats should be FAR better.  I do agree with you on the point that balance should be equal at all level ranges, it isnt and we all know it isnt.</P> <P>Im just hope it doesent take the eq2 team the same length of time to realize what the eq1 team finnaly came around to.</P>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackdog183 wrote:<p> Even getting them to admit theres a problem is like pulling teeth.  Getting them to actually fix is it near impossible. </p><hr></blockquote> I am an alchemist, I know this tooooo well.  And then when they do "fix" something, at times it makes it worse even if they can point and say "it works now" (i.e. 2 poison types being exactly opposite of their descriptions because they were previously not procing so the procing opposites were just copied over on top of them). As for gear mattering.  At 32, I have better gear than my guild leader's level 34 Guardian.  While she can stand there and take a beating longer than I can (more HP), I actually am better at avoiding hits and keeping the taunt while tanking.  That's a combination of gear and player using the tools.  Since I have better gear, though, should I have more HP and mitigation?  no.  Part of a warrior's given skill-set, what makes a warrior different from a crusader or brawler, is the optimisation of certain stats, including AC, on gear and by character.  A guardian and paladin of the exact same level and same gear WILL be different, the guardian will maximise the stats and have a higher mitigation and HP.  That's part of being a warrior.  It's not inequity, it's class differences.  The crusader's given skill-set should be giving him far more utility which is the trade-off on the gear and stat optimisation.  Same, too, with brawlers.  Brawlers have a higher avoidance, their skill-set maximises that aspect, with a different type of untility (including higher damage output) than crusaders or warriors.  This doesn't make them unequal, this makes them different.  All three types (and their sub-classes) approach a battle from a different perspective and cannot and should not be equal (as Moorguard's post also confirmed) when attempting to approach the battle from the same perspective as a different class. There are not jsut 4 classes in EQ2.  There are 4 archetypes that branch to 12 classes which then branch to 24 sub-classes, specialisations in a field.  Each of the 3 classes of an archetype ARE different with a different perspective to offer in battle.  Each sub-class further specialises, giving yet another narrower persepective. For Wizards vs Warlocks, the difference is in the type of magic they do,but their damage output, resists aside, should be roughly similar... but I know, it's not, and that needs to be balanced, but within the class of sorcerer, not comparing a wizard to a coercer, which is an enchanter, or a necromancer, which is a summoner since those both have differences starting at the class level. For Paladins vs Shadow Knights, likewise the difference is in the damage they do (as well as which city they can call home).  They should otherwise be roughly balanced against each other as they are both still crusaders, but they won't directly compare to a Guardian or Beserker because of the differences that should be inherent between warrior and crusader.</span><div></div>

[Yennik]

<DIV>The way the game stands right now gear means very little if any at all!!  Your level is 99% of your power, everything else means squat.  I wish gear would mean more in this game because it would add  stratigy to what you pick to put on.  Sadly this is NOT the case at all.  You can take all your gear off and fight a caster mob that is 7 levels below you and you will resist darn near 100% of his spells (yet your resist stats are zero).  Why?  because your level is the factor not your gear.  That same mob used to land spells all the time on you just 7 levels ago with full gear on, and now with no gear it can't hit you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thus, </DIV> <DIV>Level > all (nothing else matters much in this game)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Yennik on <span class=date_text>05-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 PM</span>

[SanJ]

<DIV> <P>-- QUOTE --</P> <P>It was my nuderstanding, that the figures for Mitigation and Avoidance, are not final. They depend on your level.</P> <P>He is a level 44 Zerker, so against a Level 44 Solo creature, they are his Mit and Avoidance stats.</P> <P>You are a level 46 SK, so your Mit and Avoidance figures are against Level 46 Solo creatures.</P> <P>If you both fought a Level 46 creature, then yoru Mit/Av would remain the same, but his, in effect, would actually be far lower due to the level difference.</P> <P>-- END QUOTE --</P> <P>That is my understanding as well.  Does anyone have evidence to the contrary?  </P> <P>I also agree with the previous post regarding level vs. gear.  Gear seems of little value when you consider a mob 7 levels ago that ate you alive in your best equipment that now can't touch you in your Isle of Refuge clothing alone.  Level is truly a decisive factor at this stage in the game.</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P></DIV>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<DIV>Don't forget that players chose their character traits every 2 levels beyond lvl 8 all way to lvl 44 or 46 can make a big difference that gear couldn't match. Comparing 2 profiles alone on gear isn't enough. They need to compare traits too..</DIV>

[Blackdog183]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nocifer Deathblade wrote:<BR> <DIV>Don't forget that players chose their character traits every 2 levels beyond lvl 8 all way to lvl 44 or 46 can make a big difference that gear couldn't match. Comparing 2 profiles alone on gear isn't enough. They need to compare traits too..</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do you happen to remeber this statement made by Moorgard a while ago...</DIV> <DIV>{....}</DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.</DIV> <DIV>{....}</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This was speaking on balance amongst tanks, basically he WAS saying that a tank who has spent more into gear/spells SHOULD be a much better tank.  Thats where this entire gripe is based.  Bascially what he said is false, as all hell.  A shadowknight who spends more into his gear/spells/stats SHOULD be a much better tank in all areas than a zerker who doesent.  Thats what he was saying there.  Anyone care to disagree?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, Im still looking for the post he made a while ago concerning training traits/racial traits not being a huge determining factor in tank balance, when I find it, I will be glad to quote it here.  It was a concern a while ago, and if his training choices CAN make that much of a diff. then perhaps they need to be looked at as well.</DIV>

[DonSavan]

<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>As you can see the following is true:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. I have far better stats in all of them...</DIV> <DIV>2.My gear is equal to or better than his in every single slot(he has some green gear etc)</DIV> <DIV>3. He has MORE hps than I do with lesser stats/gear</DIV> <DIV>4. He has almost as much mitigation as I do with lower stats/gear</DIV> <DIV>5. He has almost as much avoidance with FAR less AGI and NO SHIELD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <DIV>I would call 200 mitigation and 9% avoidance a pretty big difference.  Also like someone mentioned, you wards/life taps are essentially hp buffs.  They might not be overpowering but every little bit adds up.  Add up all the heals/wards you can put on in a fight and add it to your hp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> You strength is also higher, and the persona window doesn't show how that makes you char better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, just comparing the two persona windows is not enough information to base your argument one.  Do some parsin on damage given/recieved and come back when you have a real argument.</DIV>

[VengeanceX]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote: <DIV>The round of changes currently on Test only deal with the defensive side of things. They won't go live without other changes that are coming. We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale. With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle. Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That is the full quote from Moorgard that Blackdog183 selectively mis-quoted from.  Please note that Moorgard is addressing the class balance changes that were rolled out to the Test server and are still being worked on and tested at this time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point I am trying to make is that this argument is irrelevant as this same Shadow Knight and Berserker will look a whole lot different once these combat changes on the Test server are complete.  I am going to reserve judgement until how these work in practice on the Test server once they are nearing completion.</DIV>

[Rhaam]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Blackdog183 wrote:<DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Nocifer Deathblade wrote:<DIV>Don't forget that players chose their character traits every 2 levels beyond lvl 8 all way to lvl 44 or 46 can make a big difference that gear couldn't match. Comparing 2 profiles alone on gear isn't enough. They need to compare traits too..</DIV><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you happen to remeber this statement made by Moorgard a while ago...</DIV><DIV>{....}</DIV><DIV>Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.</DIV><DIV>{....}</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>This was speaking on balance amongst tanks, basically he WAS saying that a tank who has spent more into gear/spells SHOULD be a much better tank.  Thats where this entire gripe is based.  Bascially what he said is false, as all hell.  A shadowknight who spends more into his gear/spells/stats SHOULD be a much better tank in all areas than a zerker who doesent.  Thats what he was saying there.  Anyone care to disagree?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Also, Im still looking for the post he made a while ago concerning training traits/racial traits not being a huge determining factor in tank balance, when I find it, I will be glad to quote it here.  It was a concern a while ago, and if his training choices CAN make that much of a diff. then perhaps they need to be looked at as well.</DIV><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As someone earlier in the thread mentioned racial traits and training can make a big difference (regardless of whether moorgard would like to admit that or not). First off he's a dwarf...that immediately gives him a +3%hp trait and +5 defense trait available (the +5 defense adding to avoidance). Second he's a zerk so he has a lvl 40 training buff available to him that adds +0.6% avoidance and near 100 mitigation.</P><P>Anyways your comparison was doomed from the start. You can't compare 2 classes at different levels with different buffs on and varying trait selections and expect it to show much of anything.  Get a zerk and an SK of same level, race (same trait selection preferably though that isn't really realistic) as well as comparably geared and buffed if you would like to demonstrate an imbalance. As it stands now they're to many factors for anyone to take them all into account.</P>

[Garlicyesterday]

<DIV>Blackdog , where the hell u got those infos about pallys healing for 1k single target at lvl 43 ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our latest heals as pally heals for 712hp at adept3...hmmm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Varkas- 50th pal from Crushbone</DIV>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DonSavantx wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>As you can see the following is true:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. I have far better stats in all of them...</DIV> <DIV>2.My gear is equal to or better than his in every single slot(he has some green gear etc)</DIV> <DIV>3. He has MORE hps than I do with lesser stats/gear</DIV> <DIV>4. He has almost as much mitigation as I do with lower stats/gear</DIV> <DIV>5. He has almost as much avoidance with FAR less AGI and NO SHIELD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <DIV>I would call 200 mitigation and 9% avoidance a pretty big difference.  Also like someone mentioned, you wards/life taps are essentially hp buffs.  They might not be overpowering but every little bit adds up.  Add up all the heals/wards you can put on in a fight and add it to your hp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> You strength is also higher, and the persona window doesn't show how that makes you char better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, just comparing the two persona windows is not enough information to base your argument one.  Do some parsin on damage given/recieved and come back when you have a real argument.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok, all of my Lifetaps-</P> <P>Consume Vitae AD3- 86 hps</P> <P>Pharias Mark- 45 hps</P> <P>Swarming spirits- 80 hps</P> <P>Thats 211 hps for 263 power....</P> <P>Unholy Blessing- Wards for 547 unmitigated damage, so it eqates out to about 100 damage if your lucky...143 power</P> <P>So lets see....311 hps for 406 power, oh wait thats the same power I have to use to hold aggro.  So now Im burning 1/4(ish) of my power to heal myself ONCE.  Thats alot of damned power for not alot of heal.  Oh wait, that zerker(or any other class) that gets a nice POWER FREE hps advancement doesent have to spend that power to get those hps now do they?</P> <P>So once again, dont use the BS argument about lifetaps and wards, cause quite frankly it wont get you very far.  Anyone that says shadowknight lifetaps and wards are worth the substantial loss to hps/avoidance and mit is just plain damned clueless.</P> <P>So it comes back to the balance situtation, after you are now informed of the actual effects of lifetaps and the crap ward we get, do you still feel theres balance there?</P> <P> </P>

[Garlicyesterday]

<DIV>Bleh hit submit too fast lol...Seriously guys , stop talking about balance of classes when ur lvl 30 , not judging anyone while saying this , i just mean lvl up to end game , start raiding , err do lots of raids even then you will start to know your class and what u can really do then talk , before that there is really no point on talking about this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as far as in raid situation , id say prolly pallies are the ones left behind a bit in raid role i mean, and ive been raiding for 4months , not trowing that in air without any knowledge of paladins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Varkas- 50th pal from Crushbone</DIV>

[Pinkflo]

<DIV>Somebody said that SKs HP/mitigation  or w/e is lower cuz we have lifetaps,FD,harmtouch.... but if you knew anything about SKs all those abilitys are worthless... highest lifetap is like ummm 100 hitpoints back..... FD only works on mobs 35 or below.... harmtouch is a PoS it gets resisted half the time and it does about 1500 with a hour recast... WOW... i cant stand it when people say that  those r the benfits of being a SK cuz they rlly suck... mayb if those abilitys were just a little bit useful then id understand</DIV>

[Krognal Itchyb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yennik wrote:<BR> <DIV>The way the game stands right now gear means very little if any at all!!  Your level is 99% of your power, everything else means squat.  I wish gear would mean more in this game because it would add  stratigy to what you pick to put on.  Sadly this is NOT the case at all.  You can take all your gear off and fight a caster mob that is 7 levels below you and you will resist darn near 100% of his spells (yet your resist stats are zero).  Why?  because your level is the factor not your gear.  That same mob used to land spells all the time on you just 7 levels ago with full gear on, and now with no gear it can't hit you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thus, </DIV> <DIV>Level > all (nothing else matters much in this game)</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Yennik on <SPAN class=date_text>05-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:15 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>not trying to be picky, but i think you will find resistance to spell in the bio refers to the percentage amount of damage resisted, not the chance of resisting the spell outright.

[Ki]

<P>Could the reason the bruiser has similar hp be that he has a pretty good HP buff that you don't and he was actually buffing himself, or maybe you and him were just standing by each other and you missed the fact that he was grouped with templar or some other buff class that made his stats better then equipment alone could give him.</P> <P>Just running around inspecting different people is in no way a means to test whether you are UBAH enough to feel good about yourself.   Play your own character and let others play them, SK are a very decent class, so what the hell is the problem.</P>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kick wrote:<BR> <P>Could the reason the bruiser has similar hp be that he has a pretty good HP buff that you don't and he was actually buffing himself, or maybe you and him were just standing by each other and you missed the fact that he was grouped with templar or some other buff class that made his stats better then equipment alone could give him.</P> <P>Just running around inspecting different people is in no way a means to test whether you are UBAH enough to feel good about yourself.   Play your own character and let others play them, SK are a very decent class, so what the hell is the problem.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He was grped with me, we had no templar, no scout(IE troub buffs).  The group consisted of 43 wizzy, 43 pally, myself, and him.  So no, I wasnt randomly running around inspecting people....Please go baack and re-read the original post.

[Arsen]

You also have to consider that both mitigation and avoidance are RELATIVE numbers based on your level.  You are avoiding 64.8% of attacks from a level 46 monster while he is avoiding 55.6% of attacks from a level 44 monster.  If you both were fighting the same level monster you would see a much larger difference than 9%.  Same for mitigation (which if you look in the persona window, it shows it as a percentage). Yes there are tanking inequalities that need to be adressed in the combat system, but this post does not prove anything at all. <div></div>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arsenal wrote:<BR>You also have to consider that both mitigation and avoidance are RELATIVE numbers based on your level.  You are avoiding 64.8% of attacks from a level 46 monster while he is avoiding 55.6% of attacks from a level 44 monster.  If you both were fighting the same level monster you would see a much larger difference than 9%.  Same for mitigation (which if you look in the persona window, it shows it as a percentage).<BR><BR>Yes there are tanking inequalities that need to be adressed in the combat system, but this post does not prove anything at all.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes they are a relative number, but take into consideration, he has almost equal hps/mit/avoid to me with far lesser stats, now what do you think would happen if he were higher level and using more of the AC on the armor he is wearing?  The balance would be even more apparant.  This post proves that 1. The justification of their hps/mit/avoidance bonuses are bullsh*t when compared to the craptastic skills that SK's get(I can really speak for other classes as I dont play them).  2. That gear/stats means ZERO when it should be the defining differenence of a tank REGARDLESS of class/archetype.</P> <P> </P>

[AzraelAzgard]

<P>Heh how about balancing Priest Manapools.</P> <P>Same group so same group buffs. Look at difference in stats, lvl, gear and look at difference in mana oh and hp too <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=38406303" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=38406303</A> - gear is here, not crap <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><IMG src="http://194.241.163.245/public/amenta.nsf/pages/16EE63541A1B0368C225700D007E29B5/$FILE/FuryTemplarMana.jpg"></P>

[Rhaam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR>  2. That gear/stats means ZERO when it should be the defining differenence of a tank REGARDLESS of class/archetype.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sweet. I'm tanking naked!</DIV>

[Cast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kick wrote:<BR> <P>Could the reason the bruiser has similar hp be that he has a pretty good HP buff that you don't and he was actually buffing himself, or maybe you and him were just standing by each other and you missed the fact that he was grouped with templar or some other buff class that made his stats better then equipment alone could give him.</P> <P>Just running around inspecting different people is in no way a means to test whether you are UBAH enough to feel good about yourself.   Play your own character and let others play them, SK are a very decent class, so what the hell is the problem.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He was grped with me, we had no templar, no scout(IE troub buffs).  The group consisted of 43 wizzy, 43 pally, myself, and him.  So no, I wasnt randomly running around inspecting people....Please go baack and re-read the original post. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hold on where was the bruiser brought into this? Thought it was a zerker he was talking about. Bruiser has no self HP buff.

[Blackdog183]

<DIV>It was a zerker, thats why I told him to go re-read the OP lol</DIV>

[Ibis]

<DIV>first, shields dont offer much avoidance and that needs to change.  take yours off and you won't be far from him.  that is an unrelated issue.  My fabled tower doesn't even grant 9% more avoidance and you're wearing a legendary kite.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>second, what buffs did you each have?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>third, what food were you eating?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fourth, what traditions and traits did you each pick?  I [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well bet that as a dwarf he chose the 3% hitpoint tradition he is offered that you are not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've asked you all these things before in previous posts when you claimed that you were inferior to some specific warrior you randomly inspected.  Unless you're willing to offer up all of this information you don't have a case.  Same level, same race, same food, unbuffed and you'll have a far more credible comparison.  Also the participation of the other party in your thread, discussing the differences, would help.</DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>You people dont seem to undertsand the bottom line. Casting everything else aside he should have a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] load more hit points just for having 67 extra stamina points. I wont speak for mitigation and avoidance, but as sure as the sun rises, last time i checked extra Sta points means MORE hit points. Even if you take into account the extra hit points from training traits, we are talking about 67 [Removed for Content] seven more sta points.</P> <P>THERE is NO excuse for that. There is no way to excuse that little gap in hit points, unless that BERs is buffed somehow in a manner we cannot see.</P>

[jordaann]

I agree to the previous poster.  SK vs bers is NOT the  point.  One class with good gear vs One class with poor gear in the same archetype should not have similar stats (HP, mitigation, avoidance) <div></div>

[Ibis]

<DIV>its pretty obvious there are buffs involved uzhiel.  if I was to make such a comparison the first thing I would do is invite the compared party to discuss it with me on the forums.  blackdog is not giving the right information.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no problem with there being a fair comparison between two similar players, but no we don't know what each person is wearing either.  For all we know the dwarf has several high +HP items.  And yes a 3% HP trait that a dwarf has access to means quite a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a platform for such comparisons, they must be either very equal (let them put on a full suit of common tier 5 crafted and be the same level) or a full accounting of every minute difference must be given.  comparing a dwarf and a dark elf is a poor way to begin, them being different levels moreso.  I'm sorry but this post serves no constructive purpose.  I already asked for all kinds of information in previous discussions and for some reason this is a sudden "HA, TAKE THAT!" revelation?  No, I'm afraid the invitation was already extended and it still has not been taken up.  This is sloppy work.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>05-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:50 AM</span>

[Quai Chan Ka]

<DIV>Im sorry Blackdog i must be missing something here, let me get this straight You chose a shadowknigt...a class that can summon a pet, sihpon hp from mobs, harm touch, and all that jazz but your expecting to have equal hp, mitigation, avoidance, power to a beserker or guardian? Well im sorry to tell you thats not gonna happen and ill tell you the main reason why it wont. For starters a shadowknight like a paladin is yep you guessed it a hybrid. A beserker and a guardian however are pure warriors that means when it comes to castin a spell im afraid to say their out of luck. Now check this out, say your low on health heals arent comin in as fast as u need them what can u do? cast a nice siphon life spell. Now what about the guardian or the beserker? Uh little help here im dieing lol. But i understand you want your class to be a bit more powerful.....but if you are expecting to have equal hps,power,avoidance,mitigation then why dont u be the fair guy that im sure u are and say although this would make the game more balancing in my opinion i believe the beserker and guardian should also be able to summon their own pets and have spells just like us so we could be equal. Because thats what u want right for us to be equal? Take the subtle point im trying to show u and leave it be. Things are fair as it is, otherwise ull contribute to everyone basically being the same class and that is not fun at all.</DIV>

[macrosssd]

<DIV> <P>He was invited to the group, but on the OTHER SIDE OF THE MAP when I examined him, was curious to see what DW weapons he was using when I noticed his stats/hps/ac ratio.</P> <P>------</P> <P>So what were his hps when he got close enough to give you his buffs?  Perhaps all his buffs just buff hps and not mitigation so thats why it's white.  Maybe he ate some +hp food too, or drank a +hp potion.  But just because his mitigation is white does not mean his hps are not buffed up.  But yeah perhaps he picked hp traits and you did not.</P> <P>Also lvls don't add to your mitigation, just buffs and gear does.  Your mitigation % is based on lvl46.  Divide his by 44 and you'll get his % as well.  If your gear doesn't change as you lvl you actualy mitigation and avoidance goes down if you are unbuffed, if all your gear is white or lower.  Green gear/blue gear can oftentimes add more mitigation, as its already maxxed out.  Your ebon or rubicite [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] won't give its full benefit till you are lvl 50 anyway if you know what I'm saying.  Sometimes its better to wear a 200 mitigation armor that caps at 45, than to wear 250 mitigation one that caps at 50 because that 250 mitigation armor might only give like 180 mit at 45.  Also when you inspect him you see his armor as green blue cause you are lvl46.  The armor con is based on your lvl when you peek at someone.</P> <P>Anyways, levels mean alot in this game, and its way unfair to compare when you are 2 lvls higher.</P></DIV>

[Ibis]

<DIV> <DIV>A pretty good way to test the differences would be to have them both be at the level cap, both go and solo for a while with the same gear and parse the damage taken. Use whatever self buffs you want.  Parses are where the truth of it has come out in EQ1.  That is mostly because less information was available to EQ1 players and there were stronger differences in tanking classes.  In EQ2 crusaders and warriors are much closer in tanking than they were in EQ1 and the complaints are simply not justified.  Even then parses weren't respectable unless they were several hours, even days, of time played toward that singular goal.</DIV></DIV>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quai Chan Kain wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im sorry Blackdog i must be missing something here, let me get this straight You chose a shadowknigt...a class that can summon a pet, sihpon hp from mobs, harm touch, and all that jazz but your expecting to have equal hp, mitigation, avoidance, power to a beserker or guardian? Well im sorry to tell you thats not gonna happen and ill tell you the main reason why it wont. For starters a shadowknight like a paladin is yep you guessed it a hybrid. A beserker and a guardian however are pure warriors that means when it comes to castin a spell im afraid to say their out of luck. Now check this out, say your low on health heals arent comin in as fast as u need them what can u do? cast a nice siphon life spell. Now what about the guardian or the beserker? Uh little help here im dieing lol. But i understand you want your class to be a bit more powerful.....but if you are expecting to have equal hps,power,avoidance,mitigation then why dont u be the fair guy that im sure u are and say although this would make the game more balancing in my opinion i believe the beserker and guardian should also be able to summon their own pets and have spells just like us so we could be equal. Because thats what u want right for us to be equal? Take the subtle point im trying to show u and leave it be. Things are fair as it is, otherwise ull contribute to everyone basically being the same class and that is not fun at all.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, im trying really hard to just not assume your a complete idiot and move on.  Please tell me your jokin about the lifetaps, look at my post above when I explained to you just how much I get from a COMPLETE set of ALL my lifetaps.  Its less than a hit from a SOLO mob.  BTW they cost POWER.  So do I consider the fact that I get LFT's and wards into the equation, not in their current state no.  Its laughable that you even make that asinine suggestion, let alone think you can/should use lifetaps as an argument here.  You know how many times my lifetaps have ACTUALLY saved me from dying because heals werent forthecoming, NONE.  Thats right none, not once has my lifetaps made the difference between life and death.  Sorry but that 90 hps here for 116 power etc....doesent add up when mobs are hittin for 200-1200 or higher.</P> <P>The sublte point your trying to make...is wrong man, get real.  Do I want all tanks to be the exact same, no not at all, do I want things to be fair and balanced, damned right I do.  Do I want the fact that I have signifigantly better gear/stats to make a difference, YES.</P> <P>Ibishi, as for your comments, Ive explained those things to you in the past, numerous times in several threads.  Ive made you look the fool alot lately, just leave it be.<BR></P>

[Styk]

Blackdog stop trying to make your class look like a bunch of whiners.... You know [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well gear means squat compared to lvls.... I have a Shadow Knight in My guild who is one lvl lower with not even close gear to me but can out solo me in mobs for one simple reason.... SURVIVABILITY....... Berserkers have HP ( due to buff stacking which should be corrected ) /ATK and Haste buffs which is awesome in a group but diminished in solo ... Our defense buffs are broken since they can ALL BE OVERWRITTEN ( inc stance ) we have no survivabilty without a healer since we are made for agro and dmg only ( solo wise against even con ^^ mobs we would be eaten alive ) Shadow knights have Lifetaps ( gimped out BUT you have something that can be improved on while we dont ) evac at 44, Feign Death anyone you choose to ( works really nice in raids esp to save a wipe ) you can fear mobs ( only fear type skill we get is our lvl 50 AE taunt which doesnt even work atm ) and you can still tank even con ^^ mobs since you can um KITE ..... If you are disillusioned with your class , I feel your pain cuz i TOTALLY AGREE that SK's are hella [Removed for Content] compared to Paladins and other plate tanks.... But dont make yourself look stupid and say that you are imbalance compared to a zerker because BERSERKERS are on the lowest end of survivabilty compare to the other plate tanks......... ( even with "superior" hp to Shadow knights ) <div></div>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>Blackdog stop trying to make your class look like a bunch of whiners.... You know [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well gear means squat compared to lvls.... <BR><BR>I have a Shadow Knight in My guild who is one lvl lower with not even close gear to me but can out solo me in mobs for one simple reason.... <BR><BR>SURVIVABILITY.......<BR><BR><BR>Berserkers have HP ( due to buff stacking which should be corrected ) /ATK and Haste buffs which is awesome in a group but diminished in solo ... Our defense buffs are broken since they can ALL BE OVERWRITTEN ( inc stance ) we have no survivabilty without a healer since we are made for agro and dmg only ( solo wise against even con ^^ mobs we would be eaten alive ) <BR><BR>Shadow knights have Lifetaps ( gimped out BUT you have something that can be improved on while we dont ) evac at 44, Feign Death anyone you choose to ( works really nice in raids esp to save a wipe ) you can fear mobs ( only fear type skill we get is our lvl 50 AE taunt which doesnt even work atm ) and you can still tank even con ^^ mobs since you can um KITE .....<BR><BR>If you are disillusioned with your class , I feel your pain cuz i TOTALLY AGREE that SK's are hella [Removed for Content] compared to Paladins and other plate tanks.... <BR><BR>But dont make yourself look stupid and say that you are imbalance compared to a zerker because BERSERKERS are on the lowest end of survivabilty compare to the other plate tanks......... ( even with "superior" hp to Shadow knights ) <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Fear..ROFL, hey bud, I dont have fear....never have had it, and I dont recall seeing any fear component spells for a shadowknight anywhere.</P> <P>Im not trying to say Zerkers inspisific are the problem, no not at all.  What I am pointing out is the fact that 1. Gear should me mean more in determining the quality of tank you are, 2. SK's specifically are underpowered due to the craptastic lifetaps that the devs seem to use as justification to [Removed for Content] our stats.</P> <P>Also as a note, our lifetaps are SO very crappy(didnt wanna get Faarnerfed) that I rarely use them, if at all, because they are waste of power given tehir returns.  Guess what I do know, soloing for you shouldnt be an issue at all.  I do solo alot, and I DO LESS DPS than you, I can guarantee that, and am good at it, without the lifetaps.</P> <P>That Feign death you mentioned, ya BARELY works, and I do mean barely, probably 2/10 times it actually does what its supposed to.  Our lifetaps do not add to our survivability, they dont even add in 5% of my health when using a complete set of them, not even 5%....thats not even enough to bother with.  Do you really think that an extra 200 hps in lifetaps means a damned thing when its what..1 swing from a solo mob, not EVEN a swing from a group mob.  Sorry man, just forget about LFT's.  Might as well pretend they dont even exist.</P>

[Zoradan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR><BR>Shadow knights have Lifetaps ( gimped out BUT you have something that can be improved on while we dont ) evac at 44, Feign Death anyone you choose to ( works really nice in raids esp to save a wipe ) you can fear mobs ( only fear type skill we get is our lvl 50 AE taunt which doesnt even work atm ) and you can still tank even con ^^ mobs since you can um KITE .....<BR><BR>But dont make yourself look stupid <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't realy care abought you two and your love spat but at least be correct when you say some one is making them selfs look stupid, you did get the free mirror for your room at lvl 4 right?</P> <P>a) Life tap, as you said gimped, I get 98 hp returned on a 20 sec cast time (or 10? I rarly use it) it's more a extra dps spell when I have power on a raid.</P> <P>b) I'll give you evac is handy.</P> <P>c) FD dose not work in raids, your raid right? FD basicly stopped working at lvl 35, lvl 35+ mobs see thrue it 90% of the time. It's for all intentions a fun spell now, it's good for a corps humping after the raid mob fell and some one was a noob.</P> <P>d) Got that mirror handy? We dont get a fear in EQ 2. :smileywink:</P> <P>e) Ya we can kite with 4 or 5 spells, take a day and a week to kill something but it dose work.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ok I'm out, have fun and rember to kiss and make up before you two go to tbed for the night. :smileytongue:<BR></P>

[Landiin]

My goodness, did any of you people ever think about what your class realy was? SK are part caster, They came about when some necro chick with big [Removed for Content] and a tight [Removed for Content], got some pally drunk and had his kid. Lets see a zerker would be a cross between a guard and hmm a monk or other dps fighter. So we all know Guards are > all, so any thing that was part Guard would be better<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Just having fun with u people that take this game way to much at heart. <div></div>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Landiin wrote:<BR>My goodness, did any of you people ever think about what your class realy was? SK are part caster, They came about when some necro chick with big [Removed for Content] and a tight [Removed for Content], got some pally drunk and had his kid. Lets see a zerker would be a cross between a guard and hmm a monk or other dps fighter. So we all know Guards are > all, so any thing that was part Guard would be better<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Just having fun with u people that take this game way to much at heart.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sorry but that argument doesn't hold water due to one issue, EVERY class in EQ2 is part caster.  Guardians and Zerkers get group buffs, you know what those are SPELLS.  If we are going to go back to the Hybrid arguemnt (which Sony specifficly stated, that there was no hybrids), then your setting clases up to be gimped.  The goal should be that the six fighter based classes are different, but they can perform their main job effictivly (tanking), and generally equally, and all (including Guardians) have a valuable secondary job for when they are not MTing.</P> <P>V/R</P> <P>Blackoath 35th Troll Shadow Knight</P>

[TopHatJon]

<DIV>If you only care about being the biggest, strongest, and baddest person around....prepare to be dissapointed your entire life, both in-game and out. There is always someone better than you. But don't envy that guy b/c there is someone somewhere who is better than him. Just try to be the best you can be and stop worrying so much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you like playing your crusader then go ahead and have fun! There is nothing stopping you from enjoying your character b/c someone else has a few more points in ther stats. You can do things that the other fighters can't do. If it doesn't make you happy to do the things that make you unique then I guess you picked the wrong class for the wrong reason.</DIV>

[Birdrunn]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TopHatJones wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you only care about being the biggest, strongest, and baddest person around....prepare to be dissapointed your entire life, both in-game and out. <FONT color=#ffff00>There is always someone better than you</FONT>. But don't envy that guy b/c there is someone somewhere who is better than him. Just try to be the best you can be and stop worrying so much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you like playing your crusader then go ahead and have fun! There is nothing stopping you from enjoying your character b/c someone else has a few more points in ther stats. You can do things that the other fighters can't do. If it doesn't make you happy to do the things that make you unique then I guess you picked the wrong class for the wrong reason.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Right, because we all know ever Barbarian Guardian in Ebon is SO different...</FONT></DIV>

[Ethelwo]

<P>I certainly am Glad I chose to make a Berserker, Those Shadow Knights Blow, hehe</P> <P>Last night a Shadow Knight walked into a bar he had one light bear and passed out.</P> <P>The other day in the drug store I saw a Shadow Knight stocking up on  kleenex and diapers. He stopped briefly at the profolactics and just shook his head.</P> <P>I got a letter in the mail from the STSKF (Save the Shadow Knight Foundation). I trashed it of course.</P> <P>I recently watched an episode of the O'Rielly factor and it was disclosed the most members of NAMBLA were Shadow Knights.</P> <P>I saw a passed out drunken Shadow Knight in the back ally not too long ago and a dog came along and peed on him.</P> <P>A Shadow Knight was sighted recently in heavy aluminum foil armor. Some one grabbed him and stuck his TV antana cable to his head now he gets the Cartoon channel.</P> <P>A Shadow Knight was kicked out of the boy scouts for being a cross dresser.</P> <P>Ok add your Shadow Knight jokes below:</P>

[Styk]

Margen guess what those buffs are not spells they are combat arts.... if they were spells then we would have a spell book section in our knowledge book ( which we dont have ) To the OP of this thread.... whine whine away, if im correct there is an SK on your forums who just posted a video of him tanking Darathar ( oops im sorry was i suppose to say that? ) ANY Tank can tank any encounter in this game with the proper raid force and skill ... ( just depends if your guild will see past the guardian = super tank mentality ) and yes you stil lhavent answered me how well SK's vs Berserkers are solo wise .... If your not happy with your class , there is nothing we can do about it , most people know that SK's have issues but for you to directly call out other classes and hope for some nerfage , makes you a weenie in the highest order.... Devote more time to making threads on improvements to your class or ranting and devs for not hurrying up in SK fixes instead of ranting about nerfing other tank classes.... Maybe people will support you more.... <div></div>

[linzifen]

<DIV>bro,, this game will dead soon.!.</DIV> <DIV>at first its very fun to play this game..later.. so many nerf here and there..unbalance here and there.</DIV> <DIV>its make me feel frustate..why they launch the game that isnt finish developing yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>look at the mmorpg chart.. last time eq2 have 350k subscriber now is less than 250k subscriber</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>Margen guess what those buffs are not spells they are combat arts.... if they were spells then we would have a spell book section in our knowledge book ( which we dont have ) <BR><BR>To the OP of this thread.... whine whine away, if im correct there is an SK on your forums who just posted a video of him tanking Darathar ( oops im sorry was i suppose to say that? ) ANY Tank can tank any encounter in this game with the proper raid force and skill ... ( just depends if your guild will see past the guardian = super tank mentality ) and yes you stil lhavent answered me how well SK's vs Berserkers are solo wise ....<BR><BR>If your not happy with your class , there is nothing we can do about it , most people know that SK's have issues but for you to directly call out other classes and hope for some nerfage , makes you a weenie in the highest order....<BR><BR>Devote more time to making threads on improvements to your class or ranting and devs for not hurrying up in SK fixes instead of ranting about nerfing other tank classes....<BR><BR>Maybe people will support you more.... <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>At what point did I call for any classes to receive a nerf...I didnt.  Im pointing out that there is problem that needs to be adress, please look past your idiocy of thinking I want you nerfed, no I dont.  Can we tank, yes we can, no one has said we cant, but is it balanced, NO IT ISNT.  Thats the entire problem.  So please, tell me why you think im calling for a nerf, cause im not.  Im showing SoE that the problem is a tank with better gear and better stats should be the better tank, regardless of class.

[Shayne74]

<P>I agree you look and see under 20hps and think its not that much That is a hell of alot he has a ton more STA not to mention 2 lvls over the other. No matter what you do you will never get everything balanced you fix one thing to make a few happy and there is a new group with problems about it. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[EvilIguana9]

First off, I have personally noticed that my stats as a paladin are as good or better than those of a just as well or better geared SK several levels above me in my guild.  It seems strange, perhaps there is a bug of some sort in the calculations for SK stats. Second, I don't think Blackdog's analysis is very scientific.  It could be very flawed since there are so many factors that don't show up on inspect.  However, there can be no arguement that SKs are not at a disadvantage compared to many other fighters.  Third, every class has spells or combat arts, every class gets most of their utility from those abilities.  SKs and Paladins have roughly the same number of these abilities as every other fighter has.  Just because some of them are in our spellbook and not the combat arts section doesn't mean they are more powerful or somehow unbalancing.  Shadow Knights really do need help.  Part A is checking to see if the stat calcs are working correctly.  Part B is making a line of lifetaps that actually help with combat.  That means powerful enough to make a difference and mana efficient enough to be regularly used.  Everything else can follow. <div></div>

[Miral]

what, getting the pretty little kite to be as effective as an ugly front door isn't enough? =) <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[btw, I have a paladin and a berserker at around the same level (zerk a couple higher) and I'd say they seem about even overall (well, zerk is a bit better, but only because he is bugged (2h wep + kite shield *grin*)]</DIV><p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>06-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:02 AM</span>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR> what, getting the pretty little kite to be as effective as an ugly front door isn't enough? =) <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[btw, I have a paladin and a berserker at around the same level (zerk a couple higher) and I'd say they seem about even overall (well, zerk is a bit better, but only because he is bugged (2h wep + kite shield *grin*)]</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Miral on <SPAN class=date_text>06-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:02 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Strange that every warrior seems to forget one thing, yes kites and shields are suppose to get the same blocking ability at 20pct I believe.  But every "barn door" I've seen has a better shield factor then an equivilant kite, so the "barn door" gives more avoidance.  Plus why in the heck does your beserker get to use a tower, thought you where the offensive tank.  If they went and halved the blocking factor in kites like some of the warrior community screamed like little girls for, then how are we suppose to keep aggro, we have to spam taunts and buffs continually through a fight to keep it, not just cast a single buff and bam got aggro like beserkers.</P> <P>Blackoath</P>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Margen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR> what, getting the pretty little kite to be as effective as an ugly front door isn't enough? =) <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[btw, I have a paladin and a berserker at around the same level (zerk a couple higher) and I'd say they seem about even overall (well, zerk is a bit better, but only because he is bugged (2h wep + kite shield *grin*)]</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Miral on <SPAN class=date_text>06-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:02 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Strange that every warrior seems to forget one thing, yes kites and shields are suppose to get the same blocking ability at 20pct I believe.  But every "barn door" I've seen has a better shield factor then an equivilant kite, so the "barn door" gives more avoidance.  Plus why in the heck does your beserker get to use a tower, thought you where the offensive tank.  If they went and halved the blocking factor in kites like some of the warrior community screamed like little girls for, then how are we suppose to keep aggro, we have to spam taunts and buffs continually through a fight to keep it, not just cast a single buff and bam got aggro like beserkers.</P> <P>Blackoath</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Just to get this one in before the whiners start screaming like little girls, the 20% base avoidance is just that....BASE.  It does not mean that Kite and tower shields with have the same avoidance in the end, just in the base is the same.</P> <P>BTW, that little bug, is an exploit, I hope they catch u using it.  </P>

[Rhaam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR>  Im showing SoE that the problem is a tank with better gear and better stats should be the better tank, regardless of class. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No you're showing SoE that you have no idea how to do even a half decent comparison. It's so flawed from the start it's absolutely meaningless. Come back when you have 2 characters of the same race, with similiar trait selections, buffs and gear. Then the information might actually be useful in demonstrating an imbalance. I'm by no means saying everything is perfect as far as tank balance goes, but this shows nothing. Far to many variables for anyone to derive anything from it at all.</DIV>

[Miral]

<P>Heh I didn't do the bug it resulted from them changing my nice 1h axe into a 2h one while it was equipped... I haven't intervened in it at all.</P> <P>shield factor on kite/tower really isn't that far off from what I've seen.... Not enough to base class balance around that factor.</P> <P>And o yea, zerks get tower shields because well... despite popular belief.... their dps really isn't all that great.... less than an SK's in the majority of circumstances, less than Bruiser in almost all. Personally I'd love it if berserker were closer to bruiser w/ berserk isntead of guardian with berserk, but that's probably an unlikely change...</P> <p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>06-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 PM</span>

[Lyrus]

I do see one big flaw in your argument, and that's that you are lacking a constant to base your comparison on. Also you haven't brought to light all the information that  needs to be factored in. I'll explain, first off, you are playing a different race, You're a dark elf, he's a dwarf, what racial attributes did you pick and what did he pick?. The only way to truly prove an imbalance between classes is to have a constant. The real comparison would be between either a Dark Elf Berzerker the same level with the same gear and the same racial attributes and choices, or a dwarf shadowknight with the same gear, racial attributes, etc. Also, for the sake of consistancy, both of you would have to be unbuffed. If, in the event that there are differences between avoidance, mitigation, or HP, then yes, there are stat bonuses that are aren't being shown due to class. Until then, I'll have to dismiss this as fud. <div></div>

[SunT]

<P>Zerk has a Bow Equipped so he has one more item bumping his stats.</P> <P>Those numbers look fishy to me.  Too much of a deviation.  Buffs can change stats considerably.  </P> <P>I have been grouped with other tank types wearing substandard gear and thier stats have been pretty close to mine.  I attributed it to the Bow.  </P> <P>I would like to see the comparison with a 46 vs 46 and one with the Zerk removing the bow.  That is the only way to tell, imo.</P> <P>I am not sure about those screen shots, but the OP has pointed out a suspicion I have had for many levels.</P> <P>I think the dif tanks are not using the same formula's for determining final stats.</P> <P> </P>

[Rhaam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <P>I am not sure about those screen shots, but the OP has pointed out a suspicion I have had for many levels.</P> <P>I think the dif tanks are not using the same formula's for determining final stats.<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Although I disagree that this can be derived from this comparison (see my post above as to why), I just wanted to say Yule Brenner is quite possibly the best name in an mmorpg i've ever seen. lol</DIV>

[SunT]

<P>LOL, Thanks.</P> <P>He was a bald High elf and looked just like 'The King and I' version when he was naked running for a CR.</P>

[illum.]

A comparison is useless unless you bring out same race and level. Eliminate variables if you want to proove something. <div></div>

[WolfSha]

<P>Blackdog, on agaist your original post.</P> <P>1. Yes... and</P> <P>2. not true.  none of his armour is green, it's just different to yours.</P> <P>3.  Looking at your profiles now, he is the same lvl as you and has <STRONG>more sta</STRONG>.  He had about 400 HP more than you do.  But that is what i'd hope to see - you have life taps, he doesn't.  Your <STRONG>effictive</STRONG> HP is higher than your stated HP as you can get HP points back.  He can't.</P> <P>A SK on this thread complained that he can lifetap as follows:</P> <P>"a) Life tap, as you said gimped, I get 98 hp returned on a 20 sec cast time (or 10? I rarly use it) it's more a extra dps spell when I have power on a raid."</P> <P>So you get about 300HP back per minute... 600HP if it's 10 seconds...  And you think it's totaly unfair that you start off with 3 or 400 less??????</P> <P>4. Your mitgation is higher than his.  There is no "this class has more migiation than that class" thing.  Mitigation is affected by your gear and buffs only.  Zerkers only get one mitgation buff and it lasts 30 or 40 seconds, so you really can't complain about zerker mitigation - zerkers are no better off that SK's really.  </P> <P>And as i said, his armour is not green, it is different to yours, but it's all T5 Heavy Amour, so what's you problem whis his mitigation being similar to yours??</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. You say that your avoidance isn't much higher than his...  it's 10% higher!!! <STRONG>That's a lot!</STRONG> The difference between you and a monk probably isn't as much as 10%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ALSO: was he gouped (and not in your group)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You might have looked at a zerker grouped with a lvl 50 guardian and benefitting from his buffs...?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Zerkers are not as uber-suvivable as you seem to think.  We're not guards with added dps.  Zerkers are not that suviveable.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I've spent a lot of time grouped with SK's recently, both with them tanking and me tanking and the two classes seem very close in "suvivablility".  The only class that really has much more pure "suvivability" than any other is a guardian and personally, i'd rather have my dps.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:11 AM</span>

[Zoradan]

<P>Wolf:</P> <P>Do we need to get the mirror again?</P> <P></P> <P>Wolf "So you get about 300HP back per minute... 600HP if it's 10 seconds...  And you think it's totaly unfair that you start off with 3 or 400 less??????"</P> <P>a) it is 20 sec, I bothered to look a few days ago. So IF (biggest word in the dictonary, lol joke there :smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> it's not rez out right witch it is a lot of times (raid here folks), tell me how many hits from a raid mob that is? heck even an exp mob?  Yep thats the point, using SK lifetaps in eq2 as a way of rationalizing SK's get xyz is just as silly as crying abought some one having more hp than you when you don't know the details of there buffs ect.</P> <P>b) Don't ever put words in my mouth, you and your love buddy keep [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to each other, I personaly don't care, nore have ever said I cared (here is were you look in that mirrow again), who has a few more hp or less than me... well thats not true it bugs the hell out of me that the other 50 sk in my guild has 250 more but I'm working on getting him nerfed~</P>

[Quai Chan Ka]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Quai Chan Kain wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im sorry Blackdog i must be missing something here, let me get this straight You chose a shadowknigt...a class that can summon a pet, sihpon hp from mobs, harm touch, and all that jazz but your expecting to have equal hp, mitigation, avoidance, power to a beserker or guardian? Well im sorry to tell you thats not gonna happen and ill tell you the main reason why it wont. For starters a shadowknight like a paladin is yep you guessed it a hybrid. A beserker and a guardian however are pure warriors that means when it comes to castin a spell im afraid to say their out of luck. Now check this out, say your low on health heals arent comin in as fast as u need them what can u do? cast a nice siphon life spell. Now what about the guardian or the beserker? Uh little help here im dieing lol. But i understand you want your class to be a bit more powerful.....but if you are expecting to have equal hps,power,avoidance,mitigation then why dont u be the fair guy that im sure u are and say although this would make the game more balancing in my opinion i believe the beserker and guardian should also be able to summon their own pets and have spells just like us so we could be equal. Because thats what u want right for us to be equal? Take the subtle point im trying to show u and leave it be. Things are fair as it is, otherwise ull contribute to everyone basically being the same class and that is not fun at all.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, im trying really hard to just not assume your a complete idiot and move on.  Please tell me your jokin about the lifetaps, look at my post above when I explained to you just how much I get from a COMPLETE set of ALL my lifetaps.  Its less than a hit from a SOLO mob.  BTW they cost POWER.  So do I consider the fact that I get LFT's and wards into the equation, not in their current state no.  Its laughable that you even make that asinine suggestion, let alone think you can/should use lifetaps as an argument here.  You know how many times my lifetaps have ACTUALLY saved me from dying because heals werent forthecoming, NONE.  Thats right none, not once has my lifetaps made the difference between life and death.  Sorry but that 90 hps here for 116 power etc....doesent add up when mobs are hittin for 200-1200 or higher.</P> <P>The sublte point your trying to make...is wrong man, get real.  Do I want all tanks to be the exact same, no not at all, do I want things to be fair and balanced, damned right I do.  Do I want the fact that I have signifigantly better gear/stats to make a difference, YES.</P> <P>Ibishi, as for your comments, Ive explained those things to you in the past, numerous times in several threads.  Ive made you look the fool alot lately, just leave it be.<BR></P> <P></P> <DIV>Iceband Fatebringer<BR>Bel Vaka</DIV></DIV> <P>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>This is what Blackdog wrote in his orignial post:   A shadowknight who spends more into his gear/spells/stats SHOULD be a much better tank in all areas than a zerker who doesent.</P> <P>Ill be quite honest with you the person who says this is quite frankly a complete [Removed for Content].</P> <P>You mentioned lifetaps in your original post which i seem to have missed now heres the thing, from what i have seen paladins get pretty decent heals so if they are not in line with the shadowknights lifetap spells then this is something you can argue, and from what you wrote it seems the lifetaps are crappy. But when you say that a tank who has better gear/spells/stats should be better in ALL areas....come on who are you kidding. Are you the type of person that will keep complaining about your class even if your lifetaps are brought to a balanced level? If you are id say ur in for a long crusade of whining.</P>

[scutt]

<P>Yeah Yeah.  I agree with this post.  Unless you didnt take in consideration of the pally self buffs? If there are any. I play a Guard. There should be a bigger difference between the dps output and avoidence/mitigation of zerkers. I really like how leather wears want to be tanks. Hey guys let the people whom chose to tank .tank. you chose a dps class.ok. ahah </P> <P>I dont even try to hold argo from a zerker they usually end up tanking anyway. even with all adept 3 taunts and offence spells. unless the person playing the zerker knows how to control argo and do the dps the class was made to do. But zerkers can tank very well. yes this is a beaten bush.  have you noticed there are fewer guards/palys on your server to group with? I have on my server. at first there were way to many.now its mostly warlocks brawlers and zerkers. Just watched a lvl 46 warlock solo a 2 up lvl 48 mob. then I tried on my 50 guard. hmm. no root and no dots. plus my crap dps. it was close but had to run it off.</P> <P>Generall</P> <P> </P>

[WolfSha]

<P></P> <HR> Zoradan wrote: <P>Wolf:</P> <P>Do we need to get the mirror again?</P> <P></P> <P>Wolf "So you get about 300HP back per minute... 600HP if it's 10 seconds...  And you think it's totaly unfair that you start off with 3 or 400 less??????"</P> <P>a) it is 20 sec, I bothered to look a few days ago. So IF (biggest word in the dictonary, lol joke there :smileywink<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> it's not rez out right witch it is a lot of times (raid here folks), tell me how many hits from a raid mob that is? heck even an exp mob?  Yep thats the point, using SK lifetaps in eq2 as a way of rationalizing SK's get xyz is just as silly as crying abought some one having more hp than you when you don't know the details of there buffs ect.</P> <P>b) Don't ever put words in my mouth, you and your love buddy keep [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to each other, I personaly don't care, nore have ever said I cared (here is were you look in that mirrow again), who has a few more hp or less than me... well thats not true it bugs the hell out of me that the other 50 sk in my guild has 250 more but I'm working on getting him nerfed~</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Wow, chill out, my comments were directed at blackdog, not you, i simply quoted your figures as i don't have a SK of that level yet.  I actually appricated you posting the figures so i didn't have to start trying to guess them.</P> <P>I was not saying you were complaing, or putting any words in your mouth, i was simply saying (to blackdog, using your figures) that if you can get back 300HP a minute then why is it a big deal if you start with 300 less?</P> <P>Blackdog was sayingunfair it was that a zerker has more (300 - big wow, i loose more than that sneezing if i tank a raid mob) HP than him.</P> <P>No raid fight is over in less than a minute (unless my sword has gone blunt and everyone else is doing a lot better than me), so why the big problem with having 300 HP less at the start of a fight when you can get a lot more than that back during if you want to?</P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:05 AM</span>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WolfShark wrote:<BR> <P></P> <HR> Zoradan wrote: <P>Wolf:</P> <P>Do we need to get the mirror again?</P> <P></P> <P>Wolf "So you get about 300HP back per minute... 600HP if it's 10 seconds...  And you think it's totaly unfair that you start off with 3 or 400 less??????"</P> <P>a) it is 20 sec, I bothered to look a few days ago. So IF (biggest word in the dictonary, lol joke there :smileywink<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> it's not rez out right witch it is a lot of times (raid here folks), tell me how many hits from a raid mob that is? heck even an exp mob?  Yep thats the point, using SK lifetaps in eq2 as a way of rationalizing SK's get xyz is just as silly as crying abought some one having more hp than you when you don't know the details of there buffs ect.</P> <P>b) Don't ever put words in my mouth, you and your love buddy keep [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to each other, I personaly don't care, nore have ever said I cared (here is were you look in that mirrow again), who has a few more hp or less than me... well thats not true it bugs the hell out of me that the other 50 sk in my guild has 250 more but I'm working on getting him nerfed~</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Wow, chill out, my comments were directed at blackdog, not you, i simply quoted your figures as i don't have a SK of that level yet.  I actually appricated you posting the figures so i didn't have to start trying to guess them.</P> <P>I was not saying you were complaing, or putting any words in your mouth, i was simply saying (to blackdog, using your figures) that if you can get back 300HP a minute then why is it a big deal if you start with 300 less?</P> <P>Blackdog was sayingunfair it was that a zerker has more (300 - big wow, i loose more than that sneezing if i tank a raid mob) HP than him.</P> <P>No raid fight is over in less than a minute (unless my sword has gone blunt and everyone else is doing a lot better than me), so why the big problem with having 300 HP less at the start of a fight when you can get a lot more than that back during if you want to?</P> <P>Message Edited by WolfShark on <SPAN class=date_text>06-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:05 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Your right we CAN get 300 hps a minute...IF(look theres that word again) we have POWER, which SK's are notorious for burning thru in mere seconds.  So one round of lifetaps costs me what...1/3 of my power pool?  Close to it.  See the problem there...</P> <P>Saying a zerker 2 levels lower, with a helluva lot less STA(which btw is supposed to be used to calculate hps)...had even close to the stats of a higher level, better geared, better statted SK...ya im saying something is wrong with that.  Anyone who seems to think that a better geared/statted tank of any class shouldn't have better stats when compared to a lower level, lesser geared tank is obviously blind, or just plain stupid.</P>

[Lyrus]

Nothing to see here, move along. Like I stated in my previous post, without any sort of constant, you have no grounds to make a comparision. The difference in HP you probably see is the Racial trait.  I say drop it here and leave it at that before the thread degenerates anymore and gets locked. <div></div>

[WolfSha]

<P>I agree, lets drop this before it gets ugly, but we're not quite there yet, and i'd liek to make a peace offering if i may....</P> <P>Firstly, Blackdog, i'm sorry, i wasn't trying to justify his HP being so high with his STA the way it was, perhaps you read all of my post, perhaps the small excert that someone quoted, either way that's not what i was trying to say.</P> <P>I was trying to say there are other things to be considdered and if his hp was a couple of hundred higher <STRONG>at the same level with the same STA </STRONG>then that could perhaps be balanced by lifetaps,  but maybe he was gouped with a lvl 50 guard and getting some nice buffs when you inspected him which is why he had such high HP at the time, resulting in an odd comparison.</P> <P>But since then i looked at our profiles a bit more and noticed something...</P> <P>Look at yours and my profiles... (mine is at <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=217720111" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=217720111</A> btw).  We're in comparable gear, your armour is slightly better than mine, i have better jewlery, but there's not a lot in it really...  We're probably a good two for comparison.  You could argue that i have got a fulinate hat and rubicite bracers, but i'd point out that i have 2 ruby rings, so lets call it more or less equal.</P> <P>Me - (zerker) Lvl 48, STA 116, HP 4131</P> <P>You (SK)       Lvl 47, STA 121, HP 4171</P> <P>Nothing seems to be too wrong there... reasonably balanced i'd say - you have a slight edge on STA and therefor HP....</P> <P>Now look at his...</P> <P>Him (zerker) Lvl 47, STA 117, HP 4369</P> <P>I have to admit i'm kinda stumped by that.... I've looked at his gear and i can't see where that 200 extra HP has come from.... You obviuosly picked a very interesting person to do your comparison against, but it's not a <STRONG>class</STRONG> balance thing, it's a <STRONG>HIM </STRONG>balance thing... SOMEONE NERF THIS GUY!!  :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>This must, and can only be, as lyrus-d said, a race trait.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>/edit:  If i had a 5% HP boost then i'd have 4338 hp... if you had a 5% boost, you'd be 4380 both very very close to his... anyone know if dwarfs get a 5% HP race trait?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 AM</span>

[Blackdog183]

<P>Wolf, one thing that your mentioning that isnt a factor is his buffs...we were both in the same grp, infact I invited him...</P> <P>So no there was no outside buffing going on.</P> <P>This doesent need to degenerate into a mindless argument, not at all.  This far for the most part its been a decent debate, with you folks bringing up a few good points, and once I get a little more time on my hands(60 hour work week ugh) I will take a look at and post his racial/class traits and mine...perhaps theres an issue there that needs to be adressed balance wise...who knows.</P>

[WolfSha]

<P>Excellent, i'm glad he was in the same group as you - that makes things MUCH clearer - berzerkers have no personal HP buffs - they're all group ones so as you say, the difference is not buffs.  So the only difference between your HP and his <EM>should </EM>be your gear and any traits you've both picked.  I keep looking at his gear trying to find that one thing i've missed that says +200 heath, but i can't see it.</P> <P>If he didn't pick something like a 5% trait then their's something odd going on and i want to know where it came from as much as you.  I can assure you, zerkers don't get more HP from nowhere - as you can see by my stats, with about the same STA and similar gear as you i have about the same HP as you do, which as you rightly say is how it should be when buffs are not involved...</P> <P>I'm making my own SK atm... be intesting to see how he turns out.  It's a shame these combat changes are coming in the middle of it though - i'd have been interested to see how he compared to my zerker at all lvls, not just 50, but nevermind, if they fix lots of stuff and make the game more balanced (not holding my breath) then i guess that's more important than satisfying my own curiosity :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Bad luck on the 60 hour week... i've done a few of those i'm my time and i know how much they suck :smileysad:</P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:28 PM</span>

[Roukl]

<P>I think the problem is more involved than anyone is giving credit. I think it lies back within the basics of creation. I also believe that Sony are exceptionally keen to hide all the numbers that go into working out each classes stats. Lets look at a table top game like D&D you can see every stat , bonus etc each player class race combo gives. We just dont have this information.</P> <P>Best we have is base attributes, lets look at an ogre :</P> <P>Base attributes are  44hp / 48 power/ 5 concentraton / 63 attack/  31 ac (total 191 which incidentally is not the same for each race)</P> <P>str 30 agi 15 sta 25 int 15 wis 15 (total of 100 same for all races appart from woodelves who get 101)</P> <P>Then we add a class , this usually adds some kind of bonus to certain stats , we dont have this number or any of the calculations to work it out . Why ? </P> <P>So right off the bat we already have 2 variables on our new toon race and class. </P> <P>Now lets say we make a guardian and an SK and equip each the same, both ogres, no buffs. Racial traits will be the same , but class traits will vary , a 3rd factor. Now because we dont know what or how the class bonuses work, ie if they are a % bonus or a fixed base number it is pretty difficult to even begin to guess how the stats are calculated. </P> <P>My advice right here would be for sony to come clean with the calculations for HPs, Avoidance, mitigation and power , in addition some information as to whether the race and class base stats increase linearly with level . Level being now our 4th factor.</P> <P>I would suspect all of these factors come together to reach the figures we see. I'm going to guess guardians most likely have an innate hp bonus vs the sk and inversly im sure the sk has some kind of power advantage. Sony are well know for hiding the figures and calculations used for character development , they did the same in EQL . I'm sure there is some kind of balancing act but Sony you need to make all the calculations visible to the number geeks out here. People like to know how and why they have diverse stats to others. I am not sure what you as a company have to gain by hiding them ? </P> <P>So sony here is the guantlet will you give us all the data pertaining to how our characters numbers are realised , or are we to be left in the dark to argue about balance until we all move on to the next great hope in MMO's</P> <P>                                 </P>

[WolfSha]

<P>I'd be intested to know, but more from the point of curiosuty.  I don't think i'd let it affect my class choice.</P> <P>I picked a zerker because i thought i'd really enjoy playing one, and i have.  I knew i wouldn't MT many (if any) raids, but to me, raids don't serve a great deal of purpose other than loot to... do more raids with...?</P> <P>I thought about it and decided the journey was more important than the destination as that i'd enjoy they journey more as a zerker.</P> <P>I'll be lvl 50 very soon - couple of weeks - and i've very much enjoyed my journey.  I don't think i'd have enjoyed getting to 50 as much with a guard, even if i'd have been MT more at 50.  When they raise the lvl cap to 60, i'll enjoy that journey.  In the mean time i'll work on my swashie and MA or dps in raids.</P> <P>There was no point that i regretted being a zerker.</P> <P>At the end of the day this is a role play game, and i've enjoyed playing my role and i didn't expect it to be the roll of a guardian.  Role play in my opinion is about more that counting the numbers.  It's about, well, playing your role, and it is SoE that decided each classes roll, not us.  <STRONG>They could however, been more honest or perhaps more clear, about what those rolls were so people didn't feel cheated when they found they coundn't do things they feel they should be able to</STRONG>.  If they released the numbers behind it and you could plainly see a guardian was gonna be tougher at tanking a raid mob, then does that really gain us anything? we all know that anyway.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/edit:  Just realised how this could be read... This was in no way meant to say my way of thinking is better or more correct than anyone elses in any way.  It wasn't a point for argument for class imbalance or anything like it... i was just saying how i felt about it all - that my enjoyment doesn't come from numbers or my even so mcuh my classes balance, just from how much fun it is to play for me and how i perceive my roll as different to that of a guardian and therefor enjoy it because it is different and that's what i wanted to do - i didn't want to be MT on raids all the time or i'd have made a guard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps i am fortunate that although i've been playing this game since november, i didn't make my tank until feburary.  In those 3 months plenty of people leveled and explored the different tank classes and i was able to have a good read on the forums and decide which class i though i'd enjoy the most without too much guess work and at lvl 48 i'm still very happy with my choice.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nerfs to my class degrade that fun, getting whooped by something i think i should be able to kill does too, but not much else in does.  But that doesn't mean that anyone else requirements for enjoying the game are any less valid than mine.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:22 PM</span>

[Dart]

<SPAN class=698283023-09062005><FONT size=2>But Who has the biggest... cow bells of all?!</FONT></SPAN> <DIV> </DIV>

[Roukl]

<P>I've played both Sk and guardian. I was an sk in eq1 , he was perfectly adequate for day to day tanking of named but was never going to be able to tank a raid mob, I knew this from creation and was happy with my choice. He had far more diversity for grouping than a warrior.</P> <P>This time around I wanted to be able to tank the raid mobs, but on reading sony's bumpf I was under the false impression that all arch types would be able to fill this role. Well after 29 levels as an sk and many broken spells later I rolled a guardian and never looked back. Basically the guardian does what it says on the tin , sadly I dont think that is true for the other tank classes.</P> <P>In response to my earlier post I'm not a big on analysing every number that makes up the class , but it should be available for those who want it was my point. As others have stated they just want to know the role of the class. If they want to be the MA then seeing that a Guardian has a bonus to hps and mitigation vs a Paladin that has extra Power and strength should tell you that the guardian most likely is going to be the choice for you.</P> <P>While i truely believe 80% or more really dont care how they measure up to other classes, the 20% who do care should be able to see all the facts.</P>

[Bewts]

Realize for utilities you have, all Hybrids will never tank as well as a guardian.  Guardians are designed to be the best at taking damage and maximizing their hitpoints and maintaining aggro efficiently.  Zerks can raise their HP, but can't buff to tank as well as a guard or taunt as efficiently.  That sacrifice gives them a significant advantage in DPS, DPS that is SHARED with their group making a DPS group very interesting. Both Hybrids, SK's and Paladins sacrifice some HP for utility.  SK's gain Wards/HT, Paladins Reactives/Lay Hands.  Retroactively both will equate to a guardian's HP if you apply the damage you healed/prevented to your total HP (more DPS = mob dies faster.  Ability to heal increases your total Health pool for Paladins).  Neither have the aggro abilities of a guardian who wants aggro, although I'm pretty sure a SK can out aggro a zerk if they had a mind to.  Efficiently?  Unlikely. Both Brawler types, Monks and Bruisers sacrifice all mitigation benefits of heavy armor for utility and top end DPS.  They have the toughest job being a true tank, but can tank in a pinch for a short time until eventually the rolls are not in their favor and damage hits start breaking through their avoidance.  They are very inefficient at keeping aggro except through their DPS, but that aggro DPS costs more power than a regular group wants. Different but equal is the fascade for the fighter archetype.  Different?  Definitely.  Equal?  In theory yes, application... no.  Do I mind the fascade?  Nope.  I think its fine.  Why would I be a guardian if I could out DPS him and tank as well as he?  Pointless.  I WOULD like to tank some epic mobs with my monk one day given the chance.  I'd hate to be the priests healing me though! <div></div>

[Lyrus]

Not sure what Berzerker you're grouping with, but as a guardian,  Zerkers snag agro faster than an 8 year old hopped up on 3 packages of pixie sticks, without trying. Zerkers get Hold the line, haste combat arts without power drain, and the opportunity to go berzerk.  Sometimes even when the Zerker isn't trying to grab agro he still will, and that's with me using hold the line, doing nothing but taunting and using Commanding presence. Zerkers are the kings of agro when they want it and quite often when they don't want it as well. <div></div>

[WolfSha]

<P>I've got quite good at <EM>not</EM> taking agro - it takes a bit of thought tho and in a group (ie not raid) situation where it's not approriate to hold back it's very difficult.  Sometimes i wish we had a "lower agro" skill like a scouts evade.   Pinching it when you didn't mean to is annoying. </P> <P>At the end of the day the content wasn't designed to allow for 1/2 of the high level players being fighters (which seems to be the case at the moment) and it causes problems.  The heart of fear is an excellent quest to have a group made up of figthers and healers, but there aren't many others.</P> <P>Anyway, back to the point....   It's not your fault, it's the zerkers fault.  To hold agro from a zerker, you need to make sure the zerker holds back a little rather than trying his hardest to run out of power in the first 45 seconds!!   If the roles were revered you'd probably take agro off him.  </P> <P>You gotta remember that as MT you're trying very hard to stretch your power out.  As a zerker not MTing you're trying very hard to bash all the buttons as fast as possbile to steal agro from the MT to annoy him - it's not quite like being a wizard and getting carried away and taking agro - zerkers tend to suvive more than 1 hit! :smileywink:</P> <P>The zerker burning all his power at once will generate much more agro (short term) than you who will be pacing yourself to hold it for the whole fight.</P> <P>I find a good rule of thumb for me is to try to use power the same rate as the guard tanking - ie i burn no more than he does, ignoring effects like wizards feeding him - judge and match the rate of useage, not his actual power level.  That way i have power for a lot longer into the fight and i don't take agro.</P> <P> </P> <P>Even as a zerker i have trouble holding agro from other zerkers 2 or 3 levels lower than me on a long fight like a raid if they just go ape and bash all the buttons, assuming i'm doing the same.    Even when i've explained this, people have been very good for about half the fight, then got bored and bashed all the buttons and burned their last 50% power in 20 seconds and taken ago.</P> <P>It is a weird situation, but zerkers are MUCH better at <EM>taking</EM> agro than <EM>holding</EM> it.  We can hold it long enough to make it look like we're super kings of agro for group work on ^^'s etc when tanking those...  but raids are a very different story...</P> <P>I'd have said Guards are better at that as they can hold agro more efficiently - zerkers just burn too much power too quickly hold agro an a raid.</P> <P>Think of it like cars- we can do 100mph for 10 miles - guards can do 50mph for 20 miles... if you're in for a long fight then a zerker is gonna run out of agro unless he's very carful (and that's using all his power just on taunts, no attacks).</P> <P>I really worry about whether or not i'm going to be able keep agro for the last 1/3 of any fight where i'm MTing any ^^^ mob, even the green ones as i know i'll be out of power before the end.</P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:20 AM</span>

[Dorma]

<DIV>Ethelwolf Wrote :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heal and wards amount to one thing and that is hit points. Buffs add HPs before the fight and wards and heals add HPs during the fight. A heal is nothing more then a HP buff it just works in a different way. I had this same problem with a Pally, He was all worried about HPs after buffs and I told him you got heals baby you can add your HPs back on during the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ _______________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's true,  if the heal don't get interrupted ....... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lyrus]

You bring up some really good points, and I will say that it does take skill to maximize your damage while not grabbing agro from the MT. When it comes to raids, usually I'm getting fed power as it is by some extremely talented wizards and healing usually isn't a problem so I'll use manastone with little fear. As far as efficiency is concerned, I'll post screenies of my taunts when I get a chance, and should be able to get an average ratio of threat to power. There are other factors that come into factor as well, such as haste, etc. In a pinch I will use desperate rush with hold the line ad3 when almost out of power and can usually buy some time until the next power feed. <div></div>

[petabyte32]

<DIV>This is a "grass is always greener" thread or a "he got two candy bars why can't I?" thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry OP but I gotta side with the other guys in this one. SKs and Palys get alot more spells and such that zerks dont get. Dont ever look at a monk or bruiser. You will probably go spare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kai</DIV>