Dueling

[minem]

<DIV>Why on earth are you inputing a Xp penalty and shard recovery for duels, thats simply stupid considering the unbalanced class system where half of them are gonna be totaly gimped in 1 on 1 pvp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why ?????????????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please fix conjuror/necro soon, we have been waiting since Lu3 and this is the crap we get.....  are you a bunch of [Removed for Content] or what ? xp penalty from dueling hahaha thats classic... </DIV>

[HollowMan11]

<DIV>Yeah I don't agree with xp debt from dueling either.  It takes the part of fun with your friends away.</DIV>

[Deck-]

<DIV>heh..So, there's gonna be an exp penalty for PvP.......</DIV> <DIV>I was looking forward to having fun with the PvP system once implemented, but I don't think I want to if I'm gonna get penalized for not being good at it.</DIV> <DIV>The devs should definitly re-consider this idea and think about maybe a much less significant penalty for losing/dying in PvP. Or maybe make it so you don't die, just go unconsious. If PvP is gonna be fun, it can't make you feel bad after you do it. Going out and PvP'ing for a bit just to come back with 50% conditon and 25% debt seems like it's not worth the trouble and will leave a bad memory of the whole experience. But hey, nothing's set in stone, so we'll have to see how they implement it all when DoF is out.</DIV>

[Silversnow]

Apparently this is how dueling is going to work. Who knows how they will handle it with the the expansion packs pvp which looks to be totally different with being able to use avatar type chars to fight with.

[HanktheDwarf]

All you people scared of a little XP debt should hotkey '/duel_surrender' then.  Don't get no debt from surrendering. <div></div>

[warstomp]

<DIV>I agree when you get pentalized for just having fun with friends it is very annoying. I think also you sould just get unconcious or dont die.</DIV>

[Darmash]

Debt/Item decay from a PvP loss is needed to have something significant out of it. It should happen on every loss, not only death, but on zoning / camping / surrendering. The difference with surrender is that if you do it you won't have to run back. <div></div>

[GamertagDoz]

I don't see why experience debt is such a big problem.  You're in a group, and some guy keeps acting up doing silly things and getting on your nerves.  A verbal feud begins, and you both decide to put up your dukes. Both leave the group and go at it.  I certainly won't be sad watching that punk have to do a solo shard run.  It gives an added touch to a well heated duel.  If it's among friends, just agree not to give a finishing blow.  If you're really friends, you shouldn't have any worries about exp debt. 

[HanktheDwarf]

Of course, if I was the leader of the group and two people left to duel, NONE of them would get an invite back into the group for wasting my time. <div></div>

[Rijacki]

As others have said, if it's between friends, agree to surrender before death.  No shard loss, no item decay, no run back from the revive spot, but the "victor" still gets a "win" message.  That option -is- built in. I also agree with the statement, if you leave my group to go duel or if you initiate a duel while in my group... If I am the leader, you won't get back in and/or will be kicked.  If I am not hte leader, I will drop the group if the leader doesn't kick you or lets you back in.  Do that kind of thing on your time, not mine.  I chose not to participate in dueling and so should not be forced to do so in any way shape or form.  <div></div>

[Anlari]

I'm glad the xp debt is in dualing.  PEople have been screaming for the ability to kill one another and now they are complaining there are consiquences?  Noone is ever happy with anything anymore.

[minem]

<DIV>Some of you say there as to be a consequence , why is that ? dueling should be to have fun, if you cant win anything why should yo be able to lose money or xp..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i decide to have a duel near CT just for fun if one of us dies he as to run all the way back for his shard and he gest armor decay, where is the fun in that ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no point , you guys are happy to get more stupid timesinks .... super</DIV>

[Trei]

<div></div>I didn't like the penalty in dueling either...  at first. But now I feel it would at least make idiots think twice before setting out to duel everybody they see in commonlands. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Trei49 on <span class=date_text>05-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:41 AM</span>

[Rijacki]

<span><blockquote><hr>minem wrote:<div>Some of you say there as to be a consequence , why is that ? dueling should be to have fun, if you cant win anything why should yo be able to lose money or xp..</div> <div> </div> <div>If i decide to have a duel near CT just for fun if one of us dies he as to run all the way back for his shard and he gest armor decay, where is the fun in that ?</div> <div> </div> <div>There is no point , you guys are happy to get more stupid timesinks .... super</div><hr></blockquote> Before you die, surrender.  The other person still wins, you don't lose experience, you don't have item decay, and you don't have to run for your shard.  The only timesink is the time you make your group wait while you goof off and duel while waiting for thus and so spawn or other event.  What is the big difference between killing someone and making them surrender?  I don't get it. In EQ1, if you died in a duel, you would return to your bind point (no matter where it was) and you would still have to go to where ever your body was an loot it, just the same as if you had died to an NPC.  True, you didn't lose XP, unless you died to a dot or other such effect marked as coming from no one.</span><div></div>

[Anlari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> minem wrote:<BR> <DIV>Some of you say there as to be a consequence , why is that ? dueling should be to have fun, if you cant win anything why should yo be able to lose money or xp..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If i decide to have a duel near CT just for fun if one of us dies he as to run all the way back for his shard and he gest armor decay, where is the fun in that ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no point , you guys are happy to get more stupid timesinks .... super</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dieong to mobs is not exactly fun either, but without the consequence, there is very little worth in the action.  Dualing is the same way.  Whats the point in adding something in and then making no consequence for it?

[Aienaa]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Dieong to mobs is not exactly fun either, but without the consequence, there is very little worth in the action.  Dualing is the same way.  Whats the point in adding something in and then making no consequence for it? </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But beating the mob, you get to loot it's corpse and maybe even a chest...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So how about I get to loot your corpse after I kill you??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gwern - 50 Assassin - Kithicor</DIV>

[Pheeb]

Keep the penalty ON - nothing is free and you're free to escape it if you want anyway...some people are never happy... <div></div>

[Rayx]

<P>I think the issue here is how many folks do you know that will let a duel go down to the ticker where you die as opposed to surrendering?</P> <P>I mean, what thought process is going through your mind to say.. "hey..ya know this guy deserves to kill me and I deserve xp loss because I suck at this duel so badly so I wont surrender".  Who would actually accept this??</P> <P>nobody benefits from winning, why should the loser (or I should say.. the guy who doesnt have his surrender command hotkeyed) be penalized?  Its not gonna take my opponent gaining xp loss, damage to his gear and a shard to prove that I have beaten him in a duel.</P> <P>so..with this in mind why should it be this way?  You've all pretty much tossed the notion that "nothing is for free" by explaining how to get away with dueling and not dying. .  why have that option at all if this is your arguement?</P> <P>a better solution would be to enable a duel to the death before the duel took place for those sado-masachist who insist on dying during a duel..</P> <P>duels are suppose to be a fun competition and it should NOT end with the grief of the person who loses or who doesnt know how to macro/hotkey properly</P> <P>Message Edited by Rayx0r on <SPAN class=date_text>05-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:43 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rayx0r on <span class=date_text>05-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:48 PM</span>

[Vilae]

This Dueling model is great. My friend and i were just talking about a need to settle fueds and speaking from a role playing perspective, this  Dueling introduction is good news. The inclusion of penalties is fantastic. Brings some weight and sincerity to the duel. Many times i have wished for a means to cut down a fool in the game and this provides an avenue for that, be it in a pub fight or a disagreement somewhere on the plains. Of course, if the duel is between friends, there is the surrender command. Perhaps a defeated opponent could even beg for mercy before a finishing blow. The idea of someone's Bio listing their 'last death' at the hands of a player's name is exciting. Good to see Everquest making decisions in game have consequence. I even look forward to losing and making the decision of wether to swallow my pride and surrender or die like a proud fool, shouldering my debt and slinking back to the jeering crowd waiting by my shard.<span><blockquote><hr>To those with complaints: I am Numo Black, 26th grade swash buckler and i'll happily take on an honourable opponent  in Antonia Bayle... <hr></blockquote></span><span><blockquote><hr></blockquote></span> <div></div>

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> minem wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why on earth are you inputing a Xp penalty and shard recovery for duels, thats simply stupid considering the unbalanced class system where half of them are gonna be totaly gimped in 1 on 1 pvp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why ?????????????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please fix conjuror/necro soon, we have been waiting since Lu3 and this is the crap we get.....  are you a bunch of [Removed for Content] or what ? xp penalty from dueling hahaha thats classic... </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I hope your kidding. There are 100 different fun thing you can do to hace "fun" with friend. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway 2 friend would never killed each other in a fun duel no?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fishca]

<P>would be cool if you could set the conditions for victory - like say, the duel is over at 10% health - this would avoid a friendly duel going wrong if a big nuke was fired off too near the end. When the loser takes damage that will push them over 10% the duel ends and the loser is left at 10%, not dead. That way if you wanted to duel to the death, you could, or if you just wanted some fun to pass the time on a camp, you could do that to without risk.</P> <P>Another feature that could be interesting is if the duelists could put up an item as a prize at the start of the duel - the items/money get put in limbo somewhere and put into the winners inventory at the end... changes the risk from being a pain in the neck, to being worthwhile for the winner, beyond bragging rights of course.</P>

[Anlari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pheebau wrote:<BR>Keep the penalty ON - nothing is free and you're free to escape it if you want anyway...some people are never happy...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sure, but I can't drop coin and can only drop an item once out of every 20 kills or so :p

[Brianf]

<DIV>Pheebau wrote:<BR>Keep the penalty ON - nothing is free and you're free to escape it if you want anyway...some people are never happy...<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Sure, but I can't drop coin and can only drop an item once out of every 20 kills or so <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>______</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You may have meant that as a joke but I actually like the idea of losing something 1 in 20 times in a duel.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>makes ya think twice b4 dueling AND makes surrendor more appealing so you don;t lose anything by chance.</DIV>

[Vh]

If you dont like it don'<span></span>t duel. If you want to duel and dont want to pay the xp debt; hit /surrender and if that still pisses you off;  play World of Warcraft or Guild Wars. They are made for  Kids, you wont have to worry about it anymore and we wont have to listen to you all cry about it.<span>:manmad:</span> <div></div>

[Rinweth]

<DIV>Hmm, this penalty to dueling makes me skeptical about it. I love dueling, but won't all fighter types win against everything else? Oh well, I'm willing to try it out before complaining. However, I have to say NO against losing items in duels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On another note, the reason why people are complaining alot is because SOE seems to like to go from one extreme to the other, with no transition in between. For a long time there was no PvP, and now they are introducing PvP which (depending what tier you are) lose about 3g per battle if you lose. I don't mind exp debt, but item decay is looking really iffy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One more thing, it really sounds like the people who say "well if you don't like this, don't duel" are the ones who are 100% all types of pvp, be it optional or forced. Honestly, if you are against PvP, you have no place in this conversation.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Rinweth on <span class=date_text>05-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:38 PM</span>

[ajadams]

<P>..</P><p>Message Edited by ajadams on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 PM</span>

[Fizby]

Give us the option! If its friends allow us to duel without debt, if its some fool and hes willing to duel and get the debt fine but give us the option whether or not we would get debt from a duel.

[HollowMan11]

Dueling is to have fun not to get xp debt.......

[Moorgard]

<P>If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots.</P> <P>Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all.</P>

[RecosIko]

<div></div>Why not just leave a shard? That way if they revive they gotta go back..they can get rez but that keeps them in same place <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think that would work <div></div><p>Message Edited by RecosIko on <span class=date_text>05-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:07 PM</span>

[ajadams]

<P>..</P><p>Message Edited by ajadams on <span class=date_text>04-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 PM</span>

[Tatali]

I really don't care about debt or repairs for duels, I just don't ever want to get a "Soandso challanges you to a duel!" message... ever. I read the laundry list of things that prevent duels, such as ignore list, but I'd really like a "/noduel" command. If even one person sends me a duel request, that puts an impact on my gameplay, something they "promised" wouldn't happen...not that SOE is above lying. <div></div>

[frostraven1]

Im sorry guys,  I cant side with the folks saying they dont want XP debt for the following reasons: <ul> <li>Dueling is compeletley optional  ( If you really cant stand the debt , you have the option not to duel)</li> <li>You can surrender if things aren't  looking too good during the batle to avoid XP debt</li> <li>Solo Debt in EQ2 is minimal to begin with and can be burned off pretty easily</li> </ul> Im willing to hear arguments to this reasoning but it doesnt seem like theres much of a counter argument here. <div></div>

[Bi]

yes, given that when duelling you want to risk something, rather than have a laugh duelling some friends. I like the ideas of exp debt- and non-debt duels, and the idea of leaving a shard. I feel that both ideas would get around the teleporting reasoning. <div></div>

[jshari]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots.</P> <P>Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What about for fun? I think you should have the option to risk or not, and the more you risk the higer the reward</P> <P> </P>

[Dasein]

<P></P> <HR> If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots. <HR> <P>First, there are enough ways to get out of bad spots, from evac to Call of Qeynos/Overlord, and there are very few locations in the game where you can't find a safe spot to wait until your Get out of Jail Free card is up. In many situations, it's also possible to just print for the exit. If you're in a spot where you can duel and not have to worry about getting squashed by mobs, you're not in that bad of a spot to begin with.</P> <P>Second, there's ways around duelling being used in this manner, like simply not having the player actually die, but rather go unconscious. This serves the same purpose, but prevents duelling from being used as an exploit in the manner you described.</P> <P></P> <HR> Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all. <HR> <DIV>I think that MMOs have become locked into the idea that there has to be 'death' and that death must carry with it a penalty. I'd love to see a game where, instead of dieing and then reviving, you can die, become a ghost, go off on adventurers in the spirit world and then return to your body (or perhaps a new body). Or maybe reverse it - the players start off as ghosts or some other sort of spirit and periodically inhabit living bodies to complete tasks in the material world. I think that MMO development at a creative level is getting a bit stale, with no ideas really breaking out of the traditional Tolkein/D&D fantasy style. There is so much possibility with the nearly limitless possibility of fantasy and sci-fi concepts and the power of modern computing, but the games haven't changed a whole lot over the past 10 years.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at a game like Planescape: Torment. It had no death penalty per se, and there were even certain situations where you had to die to advance the game. It is also widely regarded as one of the best single-player CRPGs. I'd love to see an MMO that is set in a world like Planescape. In fact, I think Planescape is one of the best possible settings for an MMO, since it could easily allow for so many of the things we see as stretching the immersion of the game, like instanced zones or content scaled to match the level of the player.</DIV>

[wullailhuit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tataline wrote:I really don't care about debt or repairs for duels, I just don't ever want to get a "Soandso challanges you to a duel!" message... ever. I read the laundry list of things that prevent duels, such as ignore list, but I'd really like a "/noduel" command. If even one person sends me a duel request, that puts an impact on my gameplay, something they "promised" wouldn't happen...not that SOE is above lying. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm with Tataline here , I have no interest in Dueling and really don't want some spotty 13 year old running along behind my character hitting his /duel hotkey every 5 seconds or so (one of the reasons I stopped playing WoW) , you should have an option wether a toggle button on options or  a command to set the option that will automatically refuse a duel request without you having to click a box. </span><div></div>

[Opa]

<DIV>I likewise disagree that people would use dueling like an evac. The only place I would ever think of bothering to kill myself to get out of is the bottom of Sol Eye, and there's plenty of lava to jump in there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also think leaving a shard, but not taking armor wear or debt, would serve to stop people from using it for an evac. But frankly, there's no zone I can think of that you can't just train all the way though, except maybe Drafling. I don't think this would be a major exploit.</DIV>

[Almeric_CoS]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots.</P> <P>Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Two people may not want to kill each other, but accidents happen.  Though someone can submit before a duel is over and avoid dying, what if you made it a little easier by providing two types of duels?  </P> <P>/dueldeath<BR>/duelknockout</P> <P>If players have a duel to the knockout, then the first player to drop under 1 hp is deemed the loser, but isn't killed.  The duel ends, and the loser is restored to 10% health and a rez-effect buff, but NO free teleport out of the area.  If you decide to do a knockout duel in an area with agro mobs, you can still be killed because of your weakened state, so there's always risk.</P> <P>If players choose to duel to the death, then all bets are off and there's full penalties with shards and such.</P> <P>In open city zones (not houses or any future arena territory), I think it would make sense of players of the same alignment could only duel to knockout.  I mean really, how would Antonia or even Lucan feel about the mass chaos of people slaughtering each other in the city streets? Outside the city or in a house, players can do whatever they want.</P> <P>Zonewide messages should reflect whether a duel was won by death, knockout, or submission.</P>

[Kalel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots.</P> <P>Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>In the other SoE game EQOA it wasnt abused in that way Moorgard. If you dueled in a high end zone you release to your last bind point (which isnt good) and had to run your [Removed for Content] back. Most of the dueling took place near a bind point so you can run back quickly and congratulate the winner, ask for rematch etc.. I think the only risk that should be involved with dueling is that you lose pride by losing. I mean who likes losing? You should add a component to allow you to put and item or coin to the winner. Of course if it was properly tested it wouldnt lend to exploits like it did in EQOA. I personally like dueling but with a death costing us money to repair isnt appealing at all. You should still drop a shard (would curb any "Free teleport" issue) and get debt but losing money isnt reasonable in my opinion. To me losing is bad enough without having to compound it with debt + repairing costs. My 2 cents.<BR>

[Theramor-GoV]

<DIV>I like the idea that someone posted about the two types of duels (knockout and death).  That way, there is no "free teleport" out of a situation (but in EQ2 you get your call spell once an hour anyway, so what's the big deal.....)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I do hope there is a way to set yourself to automatically refuse duels.  There are times I don't mind dueling, but most of the time I don't want to be bothered by it and just want to do my own thing without having to hit a "refuse" button when someone wants to duel me and I'm not in the mood.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good ideas posted here.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>T</DIV>

[PRALL]

<P>I'm against PvP, and I disagree with the person that said I have no business in this thread.</P> <P>I agree with Moorguard, in that risk must carry a consequence. This would discourage things like  wullaihuit just described. It also discourages rampant PvP. I personally used to hate people that want to duel just because you don't agree with their whacked view of things. Also, in  EQ1, people used to provoke duels to kill off someone that was in a camp they wanted.</P> <P>I do like the suggestion that you can set perameters of a duel before the fight. You want rewards that equal risk, make the interface require an ante up from each player.</P> <P>Why not make a separate type of duel for friends? Make the command /spar. Roleplayers could do this as training excersises that would end at 5% health. The separate command could be limited to city zones and their suburbs....</P> <P>Food for thought...</P> <P>SUTURES WOUNDMENDER</P>

[Curati]

<DIV>what about leaving a sherd and having double debt but leave off equip breakage?</DIV>

[Peabo]

<DIV>an Easier way then multiple kinds of Dueling would just be to Add a "Death Blow" ..done like this - a player who looses a  duel goes unconcious & a window pops up on the Winners screen  " Deliver Death Blow ?  Yes / No "  at that point the loose can beg for mercy / taunt the victor or call what ever. If Death blow = Yes then Full penalties are given (xp debt & item decay & Shard run ) if death blow = no then duel is over but looser still has post rezz state but with no penalties. This can also lead to some fun RP situations . Maybe they can add a % of Death Blow's given vs Mercy granted on your Bio. Peaple could earn a rep that way if they so desired.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just a thought :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Miral]

Quick question if its answered before I get a chance to try it: When you surrender, do all negative spell effects disappear? If not, DoTs could break the surrender mechanic, or those spells that do damage when they expire...

[brow27]

<div></div>edit: nevermind, found the info in patch notes (that haven't been posted by a dev) <div></div><p>Message Edited by brow27 on <span class=date_text>05-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:25 PM</span>

[Miral]

uhh patcher notes chap

[Tatali]

<span><blockquote><hr>Curative wrote:<div>what about leaving a sherd and having double debt but leave off equip breakage?</div><hr></blockquote>Probably because at 50th debt means nothing and there's a good chance the majority of your coin expenses other than deaths are gone too.</span><div></div>

[Miral]

too bad lv 50s don't accrue uncapped debt for when the expansion is released =P or do they *evil grin*

[Banza]

<DIV>Moorgard, your response makes no sense.  Doesn't escape/evac already provide the ability to teleport out of bad spots?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, where you take risk, in theory the opposing side should be reward.  A zonewide announcement doesn't seem like much of a reward to chance the repair costs, PITA of getting a shard, and the debt (as little as it may be).  Just my perspective, but as it stands now there is no incentive for me to duel except to feel l33t, which I can already do by eating a dozen Krispy Kreme donuts in one sitting.  Really, if I am in a zone and see a zonewide announcement that "Player A defeated Player B", I'm really not going to think anything different of Player A.  Zero reward.  In fact, that just made me realize, I hope there is a toggle option to turn off what I anticipate to be really annoying zonewide messages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  Reason I think I would lose duels all the time?  I play a Mystic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Banzai! on <span class=date_text>05-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:30 PM</span>

[Rayx]

<P>curious about moorgards response here.. </P> <P> </P> <P>several of us are voicing no debt for losing in a duel (considering nobody is going to duel and die anyhow because of the surrender option)</P> <P>and we're answered by people exploiting the death in their duel by relocating themselves for free.. </P> <P> </P> <P>I think what the users are suggesting is during duels there is no death..period.  forget penalty.  </P> <P>in a friendly duel, people dont die.  and again I say..I dont need the grief in my opposers death in xp loss and gear damage to prove the point that I've beaten him.</P> <P>and why do those of you who are pro-penalty keep saying "nothing is for free, you can surrender if you want".  do you realize how contradictory you sound?  nobody is going to let themselves die.  </P> <P>make duels end at the point of 100% health loss  /signed</P><p>Message Edited by Rayx0r on <span class=date_text>05-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:33 PM</span>

[t3h_m0nopOl1z]

<DIV>An option to initiate the duel as a sparring match would be nice though. If either of the "sparring" players hit eachother and the hit would kill/incapacitate the other, do not apply the damage, but stop the duel and say they won. This would be nice for just playing around. If a mob or something hit them though, it should kill them.</DIV>

[Tanla]

I just don't think there is an issue if you can always /duel surrender. If you want to duel but don't want the debt just surrender. If you die there is a death penatly and if you give up there is not, end of story.

[Rinweth]

<DIV>Actually, since they are doing it this way with risks... how about having a ladder board or something, where it will show your stats in PvP. A win/loss would only count to your stats if you are /dueling with someone who is within 5 levels. Not only that, but add a point system too where you can spend your points on equipment or furniture, possible some quests too. Or are they going to do this with the arenas in the expansion, and leaving /duel as a pure just for fun thing. Either way, I would like to see this system in game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I agree, since there are alot of people who are afraid of seeing text in an RPG challenging them to a duel, put a /noduel flag in. Honestly, I bet there will be some days where I really don't want to be bothered with it either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and please leave out the "death blow" aspect... it really sounds like a system that will be abused, where if you lose, you are unconcious on the ground waiting for the victor to make his decision. However the victor is a bum, so he keeps the window open while going off doing his own thing. Meanwhile, the loser cannot do anything at all but pray that the victor will hurry up. No thanks, just a regular 0% HP and you are out will suffice.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Rinweth on <span class=date_text>05-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:15 PM</span>

[Ulrick]

WoW seemed to be able to implement dueling without a risk, and without the teleporting for free problem.   I do agree that if a random mob kills you in a duel, you should die and take xp debt (to avoid exploits), otherwise I see no reason to force people to die from a duel.  At the very least make it an option (duel to the death, or duel to test combat skills)....

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots.</P> <P>Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Can we have a pvp arena so if people duel there and die, they wont get any penalty?

[Rayx]

<DIV>ug.. ya this thread really haunts me.  more so than most threads Ive followed on this forum..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if SOE implements this sort of duel system its gonna just be another black eye.  I REALLY get the feeling that most folks who are in favor of some sort of "loser penalty" in duels are for the most part anti-pvp-duel.  Im thinking in order to have this mind-set, you probably avoid any sort of duel or PvP to the point of running when in engaged in every mmorpg that offers this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really cant see anyone in favor of duel/PvP really wanting this system..  hence the bitterness and punishment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it will be laughed at, scoffed at as a weak attempt to introduce a PvP environment to a game that lacks one. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i'll say no more..  but I'll eat my words if the game community accepts this type of duel system</DIV>

[TygerBlueEy]

<P>I want an option to auto decline /duels.</P> <P> </P>

[Vilae]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rinweth wrote:<div> ... it really sounds like the people who say "well if you don't like this, don't duel" are the ones who are 100% all types of pvp, be it optional or forced. </div><p>Message Edited by Rinweth on <span class="date_text">05-23-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:38 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I am an avid Roleplayer. I cancelled my WOW account due to the rampnat PVP killings that were making adventuring impossible. However, I am pleased with SOE's PVP model. There is absolutley no call for anyone to ever die; inccur an experience debt, lose a shard or gain equipment damage unless they choose to. Players will not be harrassed by head hunters while collecting wood and pelts. As for those complaining about comparative classes: Of course some classes will be maimed by others of equal levels. Again speaking as a roleplayer, i'm not going to go and pick a fight with a massive ogre wearing really shiny armour, while i stand there in my flimsey leathers (unless they really get my blood boiling). At the same time there will be great prestige for a level 20 Necromancer who defeats a level  20 Guardian, i imagine. </span><span>This has already been said a thousand time in this forum, but once more for the slow people: If you don't want to play PVP, don't accept invites for combat. If you are dueling amongst friends, know when to live and laugh and surrender. This introduction of PVP need not affect you at all. </span> <span>Those of us who are for the propsed model, put your two bits in. Else the angry few are in danger of being listened to.</span><div></div>

[kelly]

<font color="#cc00ff">they should implement an auto decline option if a player doesn want to do duels. nothing would be more annoying then trying to craft or doing a quest and getting spammed with invites for duels.</font><font color="#cc00ff"> </font><font color="#cc00ff"> </font><font color="#cc00ff">and make it to duel neither of partipants can be in groups</font><font color="#cc00ff"> </font><font color="#cc00ff"> </font><font color="#cc00ff">lock the duel encounter so there is no outside heals buffs etc</font><font color="#cc00ff"> </font><font color="#cc00ff"> </font><font color="#cc00ff">make it so characters cant charm mobs on other person during duel and other stuff like that</font><font color="#cc00ff"> </font><font color="#cc00ff"> </font><font color="#cc00ff">and make the particapants make a wager if they want a duel to the death</font><font color="#cc00ff"> </font><font color="#cc00ff"> </font><font color="#cc00ff">kelly</font> <div></div>

[Tanla]

<P>Maybe I'm completely off base here, but I honestly doubt people are going to be spammed by duel requests all of te time... or hardly even ever. Even in WoW I rarely got asked to duel and that was (by all accounts from people in this community) in a much less mature community... I even played on a pvp server there.</P> <P>I'm sure that if it becomes a problem and people complain about it, then SOE will create an ignore duel flag or something to the effect, but again, I think everyone is jumping th gun that it will be a problem at all.</P>

[Delpharoth]

how about making dueling in the city risk free and dueling outdoors with the risk of debt and repairs? This way you can decide the penalty by the place you duel in. imho this will also make people spend more time in the city and enhance the immersion of busy city life.

[Toli]

As it's been suggested several times, it should use the same system as games like WoW use for duel; knock the other guy down to 1 health and you're the winner. I never really understood why dueling in EQ1 ended up in the other guy dying. In EQlive guildies would sometimes duel each other just for a laugh and stop before the other guy died. No exploitation possible and it would make sense from a roleplaying perspective as well I guess. <div></div>

[Fishca]

haven't tried this on test, so apologies if this is covered there or wrong... but chances are that as you can't be in more than one duel at once, if someone spams you with a duel request and you just park the window off screen, withough accepting or declining it, no one else will be able to spam you, and you will have locked them out of spamming too..... If this is the case, then it shouldn't be too difficult to make a custom bit of UI so the duel window is tiny....

[Silversnow]

<blockquote><hr>Tolian wrote:As it's been suggested several times, it should use the same system as games like WoW use for duel; knock the other guy down to 1 health and you're the winner. I never really understood why dueling in EQ1 ended up in the other guy dying. In EQlive guildies would sometimes duel each other just for a laugh and stop before the other guy died. No exploitation possible and it would make sense from a roleplaying perspective as well I guess. <div></div><hr></blockquote>That's called boxing. If you want to KO people /feeback them to add a boxing feature instead of duel.

[Anlari]

So now all these people who wanted to kill one another want a mickey mouse dual system instead where you shake hands with no injuries or consiquences afterwards because trying to impale your friends should be fun.  Wow.  I must be getting old and just can't seem to understand the gamers now a days.

[Sardunos]

So am I correct in thinking that /duel will work anywhere?  I really hope so.  I'm still not sure if I'm going to like the arena thing and all that morphing business.   <div></div>

[Gammelt]

<P>I played EQ1 for 5 years and never once duelled anyone.  OK, so I played an Enchanter and that would not always be a winner in a duel.  Still, dueling should have a penalty.  If I was forced to wait on a group member to finish a duel then he should be penalized.  Too bad the winner could not be penalized as well.</P> <P>Now on the positive side, just to make things fun, why not put an option in the game to allow a wager between the fighters?  Say, as an option they have to put up an equal amount of coin to be able to start the duel?  Then SOE takes 10%.  SOE always wants to find more money sinks in the game anyway.</P> <P>Even better, how about a new skill set called Bookie?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Nothing is completely fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P> </P>

[Rorrak]

<DIV>Arena PvP should have no experience debt or shards left.  Why?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- No experience to be gained through PvP</DIV> <DIV>- No loot to be gained through PvP</DIV> <DIV>- Because of those two points, there is no reward (other than the fun aspect), and therefore should be no risk (no experience debt/shard)</DIV> <DIV>- Arenas are their own zones, so PvP cannot be used to escape death from a failed PvE encounter (ie a fight was going poorly and you had a friend kill you to avoid experience debt...there wouldn't be any mobs which give rewards (experience/loot) in an Arena so this is a non issue)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arena PvP should be fun for people of all levels, not just for people who are maxed out on levels and no longer care about experience debt.  If you want to implement duelling anywhere in Norrath, then yes, have experience debt and shards to prevent exploitation, but they do not belong in Arena PvP, and if they were to be put in place they would severely limit many people's use of a potentially very fun gameplay option. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the development team is implementing either experience gain or loot (or perhaps the status is viewed as a reward) to be had through PvP I'd recommend a choice when you zone into the Arena, one instance for people who want to fight for rewards, and one instance for people who would like to just play around with some friends or practice PvP with no penalties and no rewards.  I know that I have no interest in PvP for standing or loot, but I'd love to be able to just go in and have some fun with my friends, guildmates and maybe some guild vs. guild fights, without setting my character back with a bunch of experience debt, and I know I'm far from alone on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rorrak</DIV>

[Erronn]

<P>Excuse me, but why is dueling all of a sudden in the game!?! The dev's said over and over that any PVP would be totally different - not involving our PVE abilities, etc!!! Holy bait & switch!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>What the hell is going on in San Diego!?!</P>

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RecosIko wrote:<BR> Why not just leave a shard? That way if they revive they gotta go back..they can get rez but that keeps them in same place <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I think that would work<BR> <P>Message Edited by RecosIko on <SPAN class=date_text>05-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Whats a shard!? Without any xp debt it's nothing! <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, I'm assuming you're saying, keep the shard loss penalty, but remove the 1% exp debt... Wooptidoo! Why recode it to remove 1% debt. </DIV> <DIV>Ok sure, it would allow players to have big battle royal death fests without any real loss... Great... </DIV><p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>05-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 AM</span>

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tataline wrote:<BR>I really don't care about debt or repairs for duels, I just don't ever want to get a "Soandso challanges you to a duel!" message... ever. I read the laundry list of things that prevent duels, such as ignore list, but I'd really like a "/noduel" command. If even one person sends me a duel request, that puts an impact on my gameplay, something they "promised" wouldn't happen...not that SOE is above lying.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What complete BS!</P> <P>It doesn't affect your gameplay any more than a person in RL asking you for a dollar... annoying, yes, but they're within  their rights to talk...</P> <P>I could walk up to you right now in game and ask you stupid questions... I could even challenge you to a duel.  All you have to do is ignore me....</P> <P>But not like some of you hateful brats aren't above over dramatizing everything.</P>

[lisasdarr]

A thought for everyone who is saying that the /duel surrender command will be used by everone to avoid dying, i really doubt that will be the case, except in ocasional circumstances. Lets say two guardians face off in a dual, it is going to take some time and it is quite possible that one side will gain a clear advantage and so the other can surrender, but this is the exception. A wizard against a warlock, 2 nukes and you're down unless you resist, is one going to surrender after taking the first hit, or they going to hope their second nuke lands before their opponents? A wizard against a fighter, is the fighter going to surrender after two nukes or hope that since they are now in melee they will damage/ interupt the caster enough to take them down before the death nuke lands? Scout against a cleric, the scout will be hoping to land that stun and get round for a backstab while the cleric is praying their heal goes off soon enough to stop the damage from that blow killing them and they are able to get off a winning smite. In many different combinations of fights, in fact most that are not fighter vs fighter, there will be a good chance of the fight coming down to the line and neither party being a clear winner till one actually dies. <div></div>

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bieb wrote:<BR>yes, given that when duelling you want to risk something, rather than have a laugh duelling some friends.<BR><BR>I like the ideas of exp debt- and non-debt duels, and the idea of leaving a shard.<BR><BR>I feel that both ideas would get around the teleporting reasoning.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>non-exp debt dueling is called <STRONG>don't kill each other</STRONG>. Simply concede the duel at 10-20% health. </P> <P>In RL, we duel to the death and sometimes we duel until someone is almost dead, or at least badly hurt. </P> <P>If you're messing around with your friend and kill him in RL, you don't say oops... Same in game... <BR></P>

[Za]

<P>NM, this is one of those topics that people just won't agree on...</P> <P>Message Edited by Zald on <SPAN class=date_text>05-24-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:58 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>05-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 AM</span>

[AzraelAzgard]

<DIV>Aye xp debt, shard, and items taking 10% wear from a duel death completly takes the fun away and Ill be avoiding duelling because of this, was looking forward to some pvp fun with friends and guildies but not with this, item repairs are allready insanely expensive from raiding.</DIV>

[MakhailSamma]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AzraelAzgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Aye xp debt, shard, and items taking 10% wear from a duel death completly takes the fun away and Ill be avoiding duelling because of this, was looking forward to some pvp fun with friends and guildies but not with this, item repairs are allready insanely expensive from raiding.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> Then fight to 25% or /surrender!</P> <P> I D 1 0 T </P>

[Feaw]

<DIV>death should have penalties.  </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Feawin on <SPAN class=date_text>05-24-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:40 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Feawin on <span class=date_text>05-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[Midget of Death]

<DIV>quit whining.  just surrender before you die.  easy as that.  personally I'd rather die with honor and take the debt, rather than look weak by surrendering.  </DIV>

[brow27]

If you want to make it interesting, and don't want to pay for gear repairs, duel naked!  This makes things more level, as you can't say that a win/loss was due to someone having superior gear. <div></div>

[Tanla]

That's the best idea ever... but I'm only dueling dark elf chicks. :smileywink:

[thepriz]

<span><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:<div></div> <p></p> <hr> If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots. <hr> <p>First, there are enough ways to get out of bad spots, from evac to Call of Qeynos/Overlord, and there are very few locations in the game where you can't find a safe spot to wait until your Get out of Jail Free card is up. In many situations, it's also possible to just print for the exit. If you're in a spot where you can duel and not have to worry about getting squashed by mobs, you're not in that bad of a spot to begin with.</p> <p>Second, there's ways around duelling being used in this manner, like simply not having the player actually die, but rather go unconscious. This serves the same purpose, but prevents duelling from being used as an exploit in the manner you described.</p> <p></p> <hr> Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all. <hr> <div>I think that MMOs have become locked into the idea that there has to be 'death' and that death must carry with it a penalty. I'd love to see a game where, instead of dieing and then reviving, you can die, become a ghost, go off on adventurers in the spirit world and then return to your body (or perhaps a new body). Or maybe reverse it - the players start off as ghosts or some other sort of spirit and periodically inhabit living bodies to complete tasks in the material world. I think that MMO development at a creative level is getting a bit stale, with no ideas <font color="#cc0000">really breaking out of the traditional Tolkein/D&D fantasy style.</font> There is so much possibility with the nearly limitless possibility of fantasy and sci-fi concepts and the power of modern computing, but the games haven't changed a whole lot over the past 10 years.</div> <div> </div> <div>Look at a game like Planescape: Torment. It had no death penalty per se, and there were even certain situations where you had to die to advance the game. It is also widely regarded as one of the best single-player CRPGs. I'd love to see an MMO that is set in a world like Planescape. In fact, I think Planescape is one of the best possible settings for an MMO, since it could easily allow for so many of the things we see as stretching the immersion of the game, like instanced zones or content scaled to match the level of the player.</div><hr></blockquote> What is wrong with this fantasy style? I guess what do you mean? You mentioned ghosts inhabiting other bodies and such, but in D&D there are rules to do just exactly what you suggested. If you don't like D&D fantasy there are always other games. Planetside, SWG, etc... You quote a game called Planescape, that is a completely different game. I am not sure what the setting is right off hand but I thought it was more sci-fi than fantasy. Everquest 2 is a Fantasy game and it has similarites to D&D (probably the reason I love the game).</span><div></div>

[Miral]

Starting to think they should jsut get rid of duel... People that don't want to duel are annoyed by invites, people that do want to duel are too busy complaining about a minor death penalty... Really don't think the devs should waste too much time on this, and rather fix things that are broken first. The expansion will provide more than enough pvp action and hopefully be better thought out.

[Kor Tal]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Almeric wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots.</P> <P>Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Two people may not want to kill each other, but accidents happen.  Though someone can submit before a duel is over and avoid dying, what if you made it a little easier by providing two types of duels?  </P> <P>/dueldeath<BR>/duelknockout</P> <P>If players have a duel to the knockout, then the first player to drop under 1 hp is deemed the loser, but isn't killed.  The duel ends, and the loser is restored to 10% health and a rez-effect buff, but NO free teleport out of the area.  If you decide to do a knockout duel in an area with agro mobs, you can still be killed because of your weakened state, so there's always risk.</P> <P>If players choose to duel to the death, then all bets are off and there's full penalties with shards and such.</P> <P>In open city zones (not houses or any future arena territory), I think it would make sense of players of the same alignment could only duel to knockout.  I mean really, how would Antonia or even Lucan feel about the mass chaos of people slaughtering each other in the city streets? Outside the city or in a house, players can do whatever they want.</P> <P>Zonewide messages should reflect whether a duel was won by death, knockout, or submission.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I completly agree with this. Just add one thing to it though.  In a knockout duel there should be some sort of freindly wager of coin or item so that there is still some sort of consequence for dueling even if it is a freindly duel. </DIV>

[thepriz]

I would love to have PvP in EQ2 as they are implementing it now. I hope they add on some options that would make it more interesting or fix it so that people who don't want to be bothered by duel requests can ignore them without having to push a button. I would like to see the suggestion where you can decide what kind of duel you are going to do before hand - ie death, 1hp, 10%hp. I would like to also see them implement a wager interface for the fight. I am also a roleplayer and like the idea of the areans where you can fight as a pet. I would like to see that you could be able to turn into these things outside of the areana so you could roleplay and set up quests for others to do, where the final mob is you with some form of illusion on to make the game fun. Of course I would like them to look at the many problems with recipies, spells, and combat arts that already exist. <div></div>

[Runelaron]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots.</P> <P>Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Moonguard just use Recoslko's idea, or How about when you die in a duel, you just revive at your current location?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the risk alrady put into Dueling is a Social risk, you duel, someone will know your bad at it if you fail. Thats the point of dueling "who is better". Risk - "I might die to this loser"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Altho if these are not suitable for ways of reviving, I suggest you give people exp for winning or find a better way. People will not like this.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Runelaron on <span class=date_text>05-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:20 PM</span>

[Rayx]

<P>One thing is for certain..  this new added element wont pull in any PvP type people.</P> <P>ive already spoke with some guildies (guild wars) who have played this game and they pretty much laughed at the fact that SOE is still finding ways to ruin the fun in EQ2.</P> <P>I also find it amusing that the majority of folks in favor of this are not pvp'rs.  sort of like..amused at the fact that anyone without the same mind set as them should be punished for things they wouldnt do..</P> <P> </P> <P>give yerselves a big pat on the back..</P>

[Tanla]

<P>I think what you read on these boards is not necessarily representative of the general population. Most conversation about dueling that happens in-game is more along the lines of 'dueling? oh cool... wanna go to Zek and kill some orcs?'</P> <P> </P> <P>I highly doubt the game will be 'ruined' by adding dueling, penalty involved or no.</P>

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR>Starting to think they should jsut get rid of duel... People that don't want to duel are annoyed by invites, people that do want to duel are too busy complaining about a minor death penalty... Really don't think the devs should waste too much time on this, and rather fix things that are broken first. The expansion will provide more than enough pvp action and hopefully be better thought out. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wow, we actually agree!

[Fepp]

The devs are always talking about <strong>"risk versus reward"</strong>. So we now know the risk of the duel is you'll get XP debt and mender bill.<strong>So what’s the reward?!</strong> Only way I see it is "the feeling of satisfaction that you beat someone". Would a more balanced risk be "the feeling you lost to someone".You obviously can’t make any money from duels; the only thing you stand to gain <strong>within</strong> the mechanics of the duel is a mender bill. This pangs of SOE expanding a money sink with no potential for in game profit (I'm not saying there should be a profit).<strong>SOE need to look at this again. It just doesn’t fit with the criteria they have laid down and applied to the game so many times.</strong><p>Message Edited by Fepple on <span class=date_text>05-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 AM</span>

[Fepp]

<blockquote><hr>lisasdarren wrote:A thought for everyone who is saying that the /duel surrender command will be used by everone to avoid dying, i really doubt that will be the case, except in ocasional circumstances. Lets say two guardians face off in a dual, it is going to take some time and it is quite possible that one side will gain a clear advantage and so the other can surrender, but this is the exception. A wizard against a warlock, 2 nukes and you're down unless you resist, is one going to surrender after taking the first hit, or they going to hope their second nuke lands before their opponents? A wizard against a fighter, is the fighter going to surrender after two nukes or hope that since they are now in melee they will damage/ interupt the caster enough to take them down before the death nuke lands? Scout against a cleric, the scout will be hoping to land that stun and get round for a backstab while the cleric is praying their heal goes off soon enough to stop the damage from that blow killing them and they are able to get off a winning smite. In many different combinations of fights, in fact most that are not fighter vs fighter, there will be a good chance of the fight coming down to the line and neither party being a clear winner till one actually dies. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Exactly what I was thinking.<p>Message Edited by Fepple on <span class=date_text>05-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:49 AM</span>

[Toli]

<span><blockquote><hr>Silversnow wrote:<blockquote><hr>Tolian wrote:As it's been suggested several times, it should use the same system as games like WoW use for duel; knock the other guy down to 1 health and you're the winner. I never really understood why dueling in EQ1 ended up in the other guy dying. In EQlive guildies would sometimes duel each other just for a laugh and stop before the other guy died. No exploitation possible and it would make sense from a roleplaying perspective as well I guess. <div></div><hr></blockquote>That's called boxing. If you want to KO people /feeback them to add a boxing feature instead of duel.<hr> </blockquote>Why does a duel have to be to the death? The word 'duel' doesn't mean, 'to the death'. I wouldn't call it boxing, or knocking the other person 'out' so to speak. The other person doesn't necessarily need to die, but it's still a duel. Think, lightsaber duels in Star Wars, between Darth Vader and Luke, in the Empire Strikes back, that was a lightsabre duel, but no dying, not in that particular duel anyway. Boxing is punching people with gloves. In World of Warcraft (sorry for using that example again) you have duels, and you don't kill the other person. The 1-hitpoint thing eliminates all problems regarding ghetto-gating, the only thing you don't see is a dying animation.</span><div></div>

[Silversnow]

You are obviously playing the wrong game then. Perhaps you should lookup the meaning of the word Duel to see exactly how it was used.Oh. And i want to be able to use guns in game. You know. Like in warcraft. *rolls eyes*

[SilentSam]

<P>XP debt, item degredation, and shard chasing are 3 great reasons why dueling is something that I probably won't bother with.  Unfortunately I was looking forward to goofing around with my guildmates with it too.</P> <P>Here's an idea; have two types of duels...<BR><BR> 1)  standard 'friendly' duel...looser is knocked unconcious.  No xp debt, its all just friendly fun.<BR><BR> 2)  deathmatch duel....person who wins gets some xp for winning the fight (even if its a very small amount).  looser gets xp debt, item degredation, shard.  PLUS put in a wager system....basically just modify the trade window to be a 'place your wager' window where people can put items or coin up against each other before the deathmatch begins.</P> <P>This will keep things fun for those who just wanna spar with each other, and still keep those hardcore people that wanna slaughter each other in a gladiator ring entertained as well.</P> <P><BR></P>

[Krognal Itchyb]

<DIV>I do not think exp debt or item decay should be incurred when dying in a duel. I do look forward to being able to duel people for fun, something different from the mobs. This has the potential to add a whole new element to the game, and to have debt and such will restrict how many people participate in this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think about it, there could be arenas and the like where people ingame go to watch gladitorial combats between players, perhaps a specific PvP zone, along with the capacity to duel anywhere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Two people, while waiting for a group, should be able to occupy the time by trying to kill each other, not out of malice, but interest and fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I remember in EQ1 a paladin and myself, an sk, had 6 or so duels, each trying different tactics and such to kill the other. It was fun and, while there was an element of competitiveness, the motivation was not "im going to kill this [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] for doing X".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Similarly, I have dueled people wanting to teach them a lesson, for the satisfaction of killing some [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] for being a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enough of me rambling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do like the points made by Fishcake: <BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fishcake wrote:<BR> <P>would be cool if you could set the conditions for victory - like say, the duel is over at 10% health - this would avoid a friendly duel going wrong if a big nuke was fired off too near the end. When the loser takes damage that will push them over 10% the duel ends and the loser is left at 10%, not dead. That way if you wanted to duel to the death, you could, or if you just wanted some fun to pass the time on a camp, you could do that to without risk.</P> <P>Another feature that could be interesting is if the duelists could put up an item as a prize at the start of the duel - the items/money get put in limbo somewhere and put into the winners inventory at the end... changes the risk from being a pain in the neck, to being worthwhile for the winner, beyond bragging rights of course.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Being able to set up the preconditions of the fight is a good idea; whether money, debt, or items are at stake, and whether one wins upon the death of the other, or a percentage of health is lost. This could overcomplicate things, but having extra options should just make it more interesting and make dueling more appealing to a greater diversity of players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways just thought i should state my opposition to having debt and decay in duels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Kor Tal]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fepple wrote:<BR>The devs are always talking about <STRONG>"risk versus reward"</STRONG>. So we now know the risk of the duel is you'll get XP debt and mender bill.<BR><BR><STRONG>So what’s the reward?!</STRONG> Only way I see it is "the feeling of satisfaction that you beat someone". Would a more balanced risk be "the feeling you lost to someone".<BR> <P>Message Edited by Fepple on <SPAN class=date_text>05-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:38 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think this is the issue that most of us are talking about.  <STRONG>(risk versus reward) </STRONG>If we are going to have an xp dept, mender bill, and a shard run then what is the reward for <STRONG><U>Winning </U></STRONG>. I mean really what do we get out of it.  And at the same time there should be a non death match or knock version of dueling for friends that want to practice befor an exstreamly hard raid or something.  Call it a Knockout duel, Sparing match, or someting likd that.  Even in a gaming inviroment pratice makes perfect. <BR></P>

[Krognal Itchyb]

<P>one thing i just thought of that could be lots of fun: Group duels! Raid duels!</P> <P>How fun would that be...?</P> <DIV>"Ok everyone, hit the templar first, then move to the coercer while covering the healers....."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6v6 slaughtfests!  Rofl.... who wouldnt pay to watch duels like that...?</DIV>

[minem]

<DIV>If the shard recovery and xp penalty/repairs are the only way they found to counter people from exploiting travels, it is frankly quite sad , my 80 year old grandma couldve thought of better ways, this is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let us bet money as we wish before accepting, and just stop the duels when 1 of the players reaches 1 hp, or something similar..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think the devs or Moorguard for that matter have any idea what fun is suppose to be... wasting time running in a virtual world does not represent fun, for most of us i would think anyways.....</DIV>

[Sinkat]

<P><FONT color=#ff3300>I think /duel shouldn't have exp penalties either, since this is a very basic system of pvp and has a bunch bugs, they shoudn't have penalties, also I think mostly this /duel system was implemented to try out pvp and making exp depts will make less people do it and test it, so it will take much longer to get all the /duel sytem sort out.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Good Luck!</FONT></P>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>SilentSam wrote:<div></div> <p>XP debt, item degredation, and shard chasing are 3 great reasons why dueling is something that I probably won't bother with.  Unfortunately I was looking forward to goofing around with my guildmates with it too.</p><hr></blockquote>I think that is a good reason to leave all the penelties in. This is a duel, a formal fight between two parties often for the honour of those involved, it is not an excuse to muck about beating up your friends. You can use it to help settle disputes, challenge loumouths to prove themselves etc. and for that purpose it is ideal.</span><div></div>

[BLOODka]

The only complaint I'd have is the item decay, I'm ok with it on normal deaths, but it gets very expensive. I dont mind the debt but the item decay <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kor Tal]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P align=left>lisasdarren wrote:<BR></P> <P align=left></P> <HR> <P></P> <P align=left>SilentSam wrote:</P> <P align=left>XP debt, item degredation, and shard chasing are 3 great reasons why dueling is something that I probably won't bother with. Unfortunately I was looking forward to goofing around with my guildmates with it too.</P> <P align=left></P> <HR> <P></P> <P align=left>I think that is a good reason to leave all the penelties in. This is a duel, a formal fight between two parties often for the honour of those involved, it is not an excuse to muck about beating up your friends.<BR><BR>You can use it to help settle disputes, challenge loumouths to prove themselves etc. and for that purpose it is ideal.</P> <P align=left></P> <HR> <P></P> <P align=left>Yes, but you should still be able to have a nonfatal duel among friends for entertainment. Isn't that what this is really about. After all it <B>IS </B>a <B>MMORP <I><U>GAME</U></I></B> . There for let the combatants decide the type of combat before they start the duel. I'm not saying to eliminate the penalties. What I'm proposing is that they make 2 very distinct types of duels. They can limit the nonfatal duel to places like the Pete Bog or inside the cities for all I care just as long as there is some form of an option. And even if they don't make a nonfatal type of dueling there is still the issue of reward. I mean in RL don't you gain some sort of experience from any kind of fight. So you should at the very least gain xp for winning equal to that that you would get from fighting a mob the same lvl as the person you were dueling. Limiting to death fights without any kind of reward is not something the large majorities are going to have anything to do with. I for one would love to see some form duel outside of the arena in the expansion, but not if its gonna be the way it is now.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Kor Talon on <SPAN class=date_text>05-25-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:02 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Kor Talon on <span class=date_text>05-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 PM</span>

[royalhardness]

<P>Wow could you whine a bit more please, I dont want xp debt for dueling, I dont want xp debt for adventuring, I dont want to start at lvl 1 I wanna be lvl 50.  Didnt know EQ2 has now become the home of Old Retired Women and Men that consistently whine.  I love the idea of giving my friends a bit of xp debt I just wish they had a way to wager items if you win or lose.  Please everyone that Whines Go Play Something Else you are ruining everyone's fun and making the game way to easy and a joke.</P> <P> </P> <P>Peace Out!</P>

[Kor Tal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> royalhardness wrote:<BR> <P>Wow could you whine a bit more please, I dont want xp debt for dueling, I dont want xp debt for adventuring, I dont want to start at lvl 1 I wanna be lvl 50.  Didnt know EQ2 has now become the home of Old Retired Women and Men that consistently whine.  I love the idea of giving my friends a bit of xp debt I just wish they had a way to wager items if you win or lose.  Please everyone that Whines Go Play Something Else you are ruining everyone's fun and making the game way to easy and a joke.</P> <P> </P> <P>Peace Out!</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P align=left>I would really like to know what you are talking about, because most (that I’ve read) aren't even concerned with the xp dept for losing. It’s the menders bill and no reward for winning that are the biggest concerns. The people that I see whining are the ones that are complaining are those that don't want to change anything, because they don't want any PvP action in the game at all. It’s just like everything ells in life, if your gonna take the risk then you want the reward. If you want to take a risk without any chance of getting a prize of some kind then that fine, but most people only take risks that are worth something.</P>

[Za]

<P><SPAN>I can see how some people dislike the idea of losing exp, item decay, in addition to having a shard to recover; however, personally I truly like the idea. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>With any game feature, to make it worth while, it should have some 'value' associated with it. In this case, it's the value that you put on your exp, your cost to restore your items, and the time to spend to get your shard. Some people say, that's not fun when you duel a friend, but for the most part, you cannot completely cater to only the people that want to duel their friends, you have to make if for everyone.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I do have one feature concern, it's the ability to end a duel before one dies. The reason is of a personal nature, not looking for a consensus or am I trying to get people to support my personal opinion, but to me, this feature will not be the exception, but the norm. I will expect everyone to have a hotkey setup that allows them to abandon their duel so that they are not hit with any of the above mention penalties. So for sake of upsetting everyone who supports this feature, I will leave it at that.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The duel feature in its current state (plan) works for me, too bad you don't get a status hit for abandoning a duel against someone of the same race or class. Now, that would be interesting. </SPAN></P>

[CasombraHellstalk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tataline wrote:<BR>I really don't care about debt or repairs for duels, I just don't ever want to get a "Soandso challanges you to a duel!" message... ever. I read the laundry list of things that prevent duels, such as ignore list, but I'd really like a "/noduel" command. If even one person sends me a duel request, that puts an impact on my gameplay, something they "promised" wouldn't happen...not that SOE is above lying.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree. I would like this option to as I am totally against PvP... just not my style. I don't want snotty kids and bullies sending me a duel message AT ALL and would really like to have the option of just turning the duel messages off.

[missionarymarr]

My whole problem with this is the reason they say the penalty needs to be in is to balance risk and reward. The problem is their is no real reward for winning a duel so why should their be a penalty for losing one. Just doesn't work if you are going to use this excuse their has to be some sort of tangible reward.  As for using it for travel it won't be that useful in this game for that since most times respawn points are fairly close.

[Beghard]

<P>Im not rely all that concerned with debt and dmg, im in the top 5 deaths on my server :smileyindifferent:</P> <P> </P> <P>Could we make it so that when you invite to a duel a sound plays or you get some other warning other than jsut the txt in the chat. Twice now ive invited ppl to duel and got killed gefor i even know if it worked. Granted they were both more than 10 lvls higher than me it would have been nice to al least know WHEN i was going to die :smileysad:</P>

[Qy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> missionarymarr wrote:<BR>My whole problem with this is the reason they say the penalty needs to be in is to balance risk and reward. The problem is their is no real reward for winning a duel so why should their be a penalty for losing one. Just doesn't work if you are going to use this excuse their has to be some sort of tangible reward.  As for using it for travel it won't be that useful in this game for that since most times respawn points are fairly close. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think the reward is a broadcast message saying you are the Victor! It would be too difficult to give another reward as you would start to see people throw duels for the sake of getting rewards. </P>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Qyos wrote:I think the reward is a broadcast message saying you are the Victor! It would be too difficult to give another reward as you would start to see people throw duels for the sake of getting rewards.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I hadn't thought of that."I'll let you kill me 10 times if you'll let me kill you 10 times. Quick, easy XP!"Off the top of my head the only reward beyond the announcement that I could see (that wouldn't be exploitable per the above) would be some new statistics: Duels Won and Duels Lost.

[missionarymarr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qyos wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> missionarymarr wrote:<BR>My whole problem with this is the reason they say the penalty needs to be in is to balance risk and reward. The problem is their is no real reward for winning a duel so why should their be a penalty for losing one. Just doesn't work if you are going to use this excuse their has to be some sort of tangible reward.  As for using it for travel it won't be that useful in this game for that since most times respawn points are fairly close. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think the reward is a broadcast message saying you are the Victor! It would be too difficult to give another reward as you would start to see people throw duels for the sake of getting rewards. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree the reward is the message but my point is if you are going to make it that if you lose a duel you will have to repair your equipment which the higher you get costs you more then there should be a similiar reward if you win. Otherwise it isn't fair or jusified to give the penalty. Now if you could get Xps or such for a duel then I see the need for the penalty. I also realize they can't easily give a reward since it would be to easy to exploit therefore there should be no penalty.<BR>

[Kor Tal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Qyos wrote:<BR><BR>I think the reward is a broadcast message saying you are the Victor! It would be too difficult to give another reward as you would start to see people throw duels for the sake of getting rewards. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I hadn't thought of that.<BR><BR>"I'll let you kill me 10 times if you'll let me kill you 10 times. Quick, easy XP!"<BR><BR>Off the top of my head the only reward beyond the announcement that I could see (that wouldn't be exploitable per the above) would be some new statistics: Duels Won and Duels Lost.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P align=left>I don't see this being a major issue if you get xp debt, mender bill, and a shard run for loosing. You would have to overcome the xp dept in the example you give and, don't forget that all your armor will be at 0% if you loose 10 fights and don't go to the mender to repair it. And if they use some sort of wagering system then the prize is what ever the contestant that lost the fight put up as a prize. If they were to grant xp for it then it could be at a much lower rate than fighting an NPC (say 1 %). these are 2 way that would just about nullify the exploitability that you see possible. </P> <P align=left>All that I really want to say is this. If we are going to loose something than we should win something. It's that simple. If we aren't gonna win something then we shouldn't loose anything since there is no benefit to be had from it. And to those that think that with no consequences there will be rampant dueling invites across the servers, if there is nothing to be won than how long will there really be an extreme interest in dueling. There might be a surge of that at first but it won't last long if there is either nothing to gain, or only minimal rewards and normal risk of fighting.</P> <P align=left></P>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kor Talon wrote:<div></div> <p align="left">All that I really want to say is this. If we are going to loose something than we should win something. It's that simple. If we aren't gonna win something then we shouldn't loose anything since there is no benefit to be had from it. And to those that think that with no consequences there will be rampant dueling invites across the servers, if there is nothing to be won than how long will there really be an extreme interest in dueling. There might be a surge of that at first but it won't last long if there is either nothing to gain, or only minimal rewards and normal risk of fighting.</p> <p align="left"></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>With the system as implemented there is a reward for winning, you get to stay alive, you don't have a menders bill, you don't have XP debt and you don't have a shard run. Thats how duels work, loser dies, winner lives.</span><div></div>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Kor Talon wrote:... if there is nothing to be won than how long will there really be an extreme interest in dueling. There might be a surge of that at first but it won't last long if there is either nothing to gain, or only minimal rewards and normal risk of fighting.<hr></blockquote>Perhaps that is the intent? It may be that SOE considers dueling to be really peripheral to the game rather than central to it (I certainly do). They're adding it in, partly because they're already planning PvP in the Arena in the expansion, but only for those that <i>really</i> want to do it. If potential duelers are reluctant to duel because of the possibility of xp debt and repair bills, well, EQII is really a PvE game anyway, no loss.Just speculation.

[ganjookie]

<span>I would like to see a /mercy command thrown in.  Activating this command would not kill the opponent . Just knock them unconcious and unable to move until 1 hp is gained. You still know who the winner is, but there is no death.  The winner  can then be the benvelent a*hole, or an angel of mercy , however they want to play it off. <blockquote><hr>Fishcake wrote:<p>would be cool if you could set the conditions for victory - like say, the duel is over at 10% health - this would avoid a friendly duel going wrong if a big nuke was fired off too near the end. When the loser takes damage that will push them over 10% the duel ends and the loser is left at 10%, not dead. That way if you wanted to duel to the death, you could, or if you just wanted some fun to pass the time on a camp, you could do that to without risk.</p> <p>Another feature that could be interesting is if the duelists could put up an item as a prize at the start of the duel - the items/money get put in limbo somewhere and put into the winners inventory at the end... changes the risk from being a pain in the neck, to being worthwhile for the winner, beyond bragging rights of course.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[ganjookie]

You have defeated a PLAYER controlled opponent rather them some AI mob.  I would think that is enough imo. <span><blockquote><hr>Aienaa wrote:<div> <hr> </div> <div>Dieong to mobs is not exactly fun either, but without the consequence, there is very little worth in the action.  Dualing is the same way.  Whats the point in adding something in and then making no consequence for it? </div> <div> <hr> </div> <div> </div> <div>But beating the mob, you get to loot it's corpse and maybe even a chest...</div> <div> </div> <div>So how about I get to loot your corpse after I kill you??</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Gwern - 50 Assassin - Kithicor</div><hr></blockquote></span> <div></div>

[Kor Tal]

<BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps that is the intent? It may be that SOE considers dueling to be really peripheral to the game rather than central to it (I certainly do). They're adding it in, partly because they're already planning PvP in the Arena in the expansion, but only for those that <I>really</I> want to do it. If potential duelers are reluctant to duel because of the possibility of xp debt and repair bills, well, EQII is really a PvE game anyway, no loss.<BR><BR>Just speculation.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You might be right, and if that is what they are doing than that’s fine. And I will be happy with it. I would just like to here what the Dev's are thinking on this now. You know what I mean.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[jshari]

How about there be two ways to PvP? Dueling or Sparing? Dueling can be a fight to the death and sparing can be somthing else like to 10% or somthing. Of corse there would have to be a diffrence mabee with dueling you can bet money or somthing i dont know what do you think <div></div>

[Trei]

What in heaven's name is so difficult about making a hotkey macro for /surrender ? If you are losing and don't want to die, click <i>that.</i> <div></div>

[jordaann]

This will probably come across antagonistic however here it is.  I believe that the risk vs reward is not enough.  In most cases this  duel is a battle for someones honor, yours, theirs, or the respective maiden you are defending.  And with my idea there would be no concern about xp debt or item damage.  If you accept a duel and you lose and die it is final.  You die , no rez , no shard, you are dead after all.  Time to go back to character creation screen.  I know this sounds extreme since you lose everything you have put into the character up to this point but guess what it is a duel for death and honor. <div></div>

[minem]

<P>These so called ''consequences'' from losing a duel is all bull [Removed for Content] , this should just be to have fun, how can you guys define fun by having to lose time , even if its just 5-10 min everytime , i get no enjoyment and im most likely not alone from running inside a virtual world...... or why not have a minimum wager based on PC lvl to participate in duels...</P> <P>These are simply ironic and stupid ways to slow the gameplay ( little there is ) and to get people to spend more time in game.</P> <P>For those of you saying its simply laziness not to make a /surrender hotkey, do you know how fast these duels are going to be decided ? i might not want to surrender even if im lowest in HP because there might be a chance to comeback.</P> <P>Eqoa had a close to perfect duel system which worked on betting money, why oh why did you not just use that model.</P> <P>Moorguard if you ever read this again, do you sincerely believe the answer you gave regarding risk vs reward is fair ? its completly ignorant on the fact that im already investing enough time in this game for the amount of '' fun factor '' i get in return. The new raid lockout system doesnt help one bit...... nothing to do with half the time i spend in game.</P> <P>Could we at least, pretty please, get a FFA arena with no death consequence.</P> <P> </P>

[Kadurm]

<DIV>If the death and item deterioration is such an issue, Why didn't you guys just ask for boxing matches instead? Lot less chance of death and the equipment requirements are lower (2 gloves, 2 shoes, and a pair of too big underwear ) :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>people, first of all dueling is not forced on you. If you dont want to risk debt and item decay then simply dont duel. We're not talking about 10% debt. Stop whining about what at the most is 1% debt. Your gear repair is dependent on your lvl, so its not like its going to cost a bundle. At lvl 50 my ebon costs 7 silver to repair and my fabled about 20 a pop. I can make that money in about 20 minutes in PF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dueling should have risks. If you die, then thats an incentive to stop trying to duel others and it will give you pause before you try to duel again. </DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>05-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:17 AM</span>

[Rinweth]

<DIV>Uh, 20s a pop on fabled stuff adds up if you like duel. At the end of raids I end up spending 1 or 2g on a fabled item. It understandable for it in that situation, but not for dueling. Give me shard loss, give me exp debt, but don't give item decay, it has not place. A shard loss is an equal risk to the reward you get as you have to run back and get it, or else you suffer having lower stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and the reason people are complaining is because, when lots of people kept on asking for pvp, they had in mind the old method where if you lost, you only dropped your corpse wich you had to return to. Now there was an instant teleportation aspect since you can take off all your gear and it only leaves an empty corpse. However in this game, when you drop a shard, you have to return to it or else you will end up gimping yourself for 3 days each shard.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I guess this system is good though, if someone bothers you, if you win you will have the satisfaction that they are out of your face and have penalties. However please open up those arenas in the cities so you can duel without penalties.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rinweth on <span class=date_text>05-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:32 AM</span>

[Nobol]

<blockquote><hr>Rinweth wrote: <DIV>Uh, 20s a pop on fabled stuff adds up if you like duel. At the end of raids I end up spending 1 or 2g on a fabled item. It understandable for it in that situation, but not for dueling. Give me shard loss, give me exp debt, but don't give item decay, it has not place. A shard loss is an equal risk to the reward you get as you have to run back and get it, or else you suffer having lower stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and the reason people are complaining is because, when lots of people kept on asking for pvp, they had in mind the old method where if you lost, you only dropped your corpse wich you had to return to. Now there was an instant teleportation aspect since you can take off all your gear and it only leaves an empty corpse. However in this game, when you drop a shard, you have to return to it or else you will end up gimping yourself for 3 days each shard.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I guess this system is good though, if someone bothers you, if you win you will have the satisfaction that they are out of your face and have penalties. However please open up those arenas in the cities so you can duel without penalties.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rinweth on <span class=date_text>05-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:32 AM</span><hr></blockquote>After 25 raids this week, I spent 20G repairing my gear, fableds for the lose <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rinweth]

<P><A href="http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=columns.Detail&category_select_id=16&id=467" target=_blank>http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=columns.Detail&category_select_id=16&id=467</A></P> <P>This guy speaks the truth.</P>

[Fepp]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote: <div>people, first of all dueling is not forced on you. If you dont want to risk debt and item decay then simply dont duel. We're not talking about 10% debt. Stop whining about what at the most is 1% debt. Your gear repair is dependent on your lvl, so its not like its going to cost a bundle. At lvl 50 my ebon costs 7 silver to repair and my fabled about 20 a pop. I can make that money in about 20 minutes in PF.</div> <div> </div> <div>Dueling should have risks. If you die, then thats an incentive to stop trying to duel others and it will give you pause before you try to duel again. </div><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">05-29-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:17 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span>Yeah, that would be great if duels lasted 20 minutes.  However they dont, you could probably duel 5 times in 20 minutes. Seems to me there are 2 groups of people that dont mind the mendor bill, those that dont want to duel, those that want to duel once in a while.  What about the people that want to duel regularly?  I can see this being the bigest money sink in the game for a lot of people. <div></div>

[ismik]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <p>If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots.</p> <p>Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all.</p><hr></blockquote>True, but elsewhere in the game if you take a risk there is (usually) a reward to be won.  What reward is there in dueling?  If there is no reward I would argue that there should not be any risk involved. My .02 silver anyway.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Meadso]

<P>Just popped in to get my one star</P> <P>:smileytongue:</P> <P>K Thanks</P>

[Rellikd]

I think we should have a full-custom pvp option screen when you do /duel. Like the option for a looting battle, or exp debt. I mean, if I wanted to continuously duel a friend just for fun, or maybe a guild wanted some tourney, why have the exp debt. If your in a grudge match, have loot 1 item and put exp debt on. Its that simple. You want everyone to enjoy pvp, so what better way to do that then to have us pick how we choose to duel. Maybe get into more options like 2vs1 battles, or no magic use, on one or all sides, no buff options, maybe even a no heal option, the exp debt on or off, the item looting number. Maybe even have a box come up where you can make plat wagers, bets, or with an item of your choice (un-attuned of course). Maybe you could have a way of 3rd party bets.  Maybe like have a new type of group called a dueling group with an unlimited ammount of people allowed in. The duel group tab could have a tourney tree that the leader could use, a tab where people in the group could place bets on people about to duel. I think it would be great for organized guild duels. Also, I think it would be cool if you started holding regular tourneys. Like maybe friday could be toruney night and you could hold 1vs1's ect. <div></div>

[LaurnaRose Fauldorn]

<P>okay so im not patient enough or care enough about PvP to read all of the comments, but i read the first two pages and bits of pieces in between here and there.  Not to sound like a SWG crossover, buuuuut .... </P> <P>I dont understand why they dont just set it up like PvP was set up over there for so long (no clue if they've changed it since I played).</P> <P>The xp debt wasnt a factor in SWG but I think the best way about that is this.</P> <P>To duel, you must offer and the opponent must accept a duel.</P> <P>When fighting under a duel situation, you cannot die unless your opponent right clicks you and manually chooses "Death Blow".  </P> <P>Once you are unconcious, you cannot be attacked further unless death blow is chosen.  </P> <P>If you are fighting an enemy who is kind, you may at this time choose to surrender giving them their win, and still resulting in some XP debt.</P> <P>If you are fighting a friend, they would have an option to "Let you live" resulting in their win and no XP debt to you.</P> <P>If you are fighting a hard core bad mean guy, they could chose "Death blow" which would result in their win and your death, forcing you to have a priest revive you or for you to revive and have to travel back to recover your shard, either of which would come with a hefty xp debt.</P> <DIV>Each loss/win is kept in system and you are able to check your own as well as others stats on the PvP regimin using command, ie /checkpvp and it will show you win/loss record.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They also need to implement "War" on top of dueling that works exactly the same, but wars can be declared/accepted only by group leaders pitting multiple players against each other ... Wouldnt it be awesome to walk out to commonlands and see a 4v4 raid war? ... 24 players on one side, 24 players on the other having an all out epic war?  You cannot tell me that would not be an awesome thing to behold much less be a part of.  Would be one way to settle whose guild owns who LOL.</DIV>

[Palleon]

<P>Its been stated in the Ask SOE this week that the Arenas are to be opened and any dueling that takes place here will incur no penalities. </P> <P>So for those that want to duel purely for fun with no risk, you have somewhere to do so.</P>

[Mithru]

Yep, very dumb. This stuff belongs if we're talking about actual PvP, but this is DUELING. It's just a fun diversion. Get rid of the dumb penalties or no one is going to care about this change. <div></div>

[Mithru]

<span><blockquote><hr>GamertagDoz wrote:I don't see why experience debt is such a big problem.  You're in a group, and some guy keeps acting up doing silly things and getting on your nerves.  A verbal feud begins, and you both decide to put up your dukes. Both leave the group and go at it.  I certainly won't be sad watching that punk have to do a solo shard run.  It gives an added touch to a well heated duel.  If it's among friends, just agree not to give a finishing blow.  If you're really friends, you shouldn't have any worries about exp debt.  <div></div><hr></blockquote> People don't want to duel so they can teach a lesson to annoying players. Most people duel their friends. IT'S HARMLESS FUN. At least, it's SUPPOSED to be harmless. Some of you guys are confusing dueling with PvP. I hear these terms used interchangeably. </span><div></div>

[Mithru]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <p>If dueling were to have no penalties, people would exploit it as a free teleport out of bad spots.</p> <p>Personally, I think in an MMO you should actively want to avoid dying, regardless of the situation. Just because dueling is there for fun doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences to it. Risks without consequences aren't really risks at all.</p><hr></blockquote> Solution: don't allow players to be teleported after losing a duel. And no, risks without consequences aren't risks. But now the question becomes, what made you think people want duels to be risky? Are you telling me that in all your time in EQ1, you never witnessed people dueling for the sheer fun of it, without ever risking a darn thing excpet maybe their pride. We have a model here people.  The EQ1 blue servers had duels and arenas. No one complained that the game wasn't risky enough because of it. It worked. </span><div></div>

[Mithru]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kor Talon wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr> <blockquote> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <hr> </blockquote> <p align="left">I don't see this being a major issue if you get xp debt, mender bill, and a shard run for loosing. You would have to overcome the xp dept in the example you give and, don't forget that all your armor will be at 0% if you loose 10 fights and don't go to the mender to repair it. And if they use some sort of wagering system then the prize is what ever the contestant that lost the fight put up as a prize. If they were to grant xp for it then it could be at a much lower rate than fighting an NPC (say 1 %). these are 2 way that would just about nullify the exploitability that you see possible. </p> <p align="left">All that I really want to say is this. If we are going to loose something than we should win something. It's that simple. If we aren't gonna win something then we shouldn't loose anything since there is no benefit to be had from it. And to those that think that with no consequences there will be rampant dueling invites across the servers, if there is nothing to be won than how long will there really be an extreme interest in dueling. There might be a surge of that at first but it won't last long if there is either nothing to gain, or only minimal rewards and normal risk of fighting.</p> <p align="left"></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Exactly. Moorgard's comment made zero sense. You can't talk about the importance of risk in the absence of any reward. But the thing is, people who like /dueling don't WANT a reward. We're not in this for loot or coin or anything else. We're not asking for more than we are willing to give. Essentially meaningless "victory" for the fun of it in return for meaningless "failure" for the fun of it. </span><div></div>

[wr4ithd0]

<P>What you win:  a broadcast to the zone that so-in-so beat whoever in a duel</P> <P> </P> <P>What more reward do you need?</P>

[AlaericBane]

<DIV><I><B>Sassee:</B> While we are on the topic of PvP, and duels that are being added soon in the form of a live update, can you elaborate on the death penalty issue with regards to dueling? </I></DIV> <DIV><BR> <B>Scott Hartsman:</B> For right now, we’re planning on going with penalty-free dueling in Arenas, but anywhere else, the standard death penalty will apply to the loser.<BR><BR>It’s definitely a bit more realistic than throwaway/timekiller dueling. If you want to duel to 20% with your friend, you can duel to 20% with your friend. But if your friend goes too far, you’re going to pay the price.<BR><BR>When there’s real risk, things are a lot more exciting.  </DIV> <P>So if you want penalty free killing do it in an arena.<BR><BR></P>

[ismik]

<span><blockquote><hr>Meadsong wrote:<p>Just popped in to get my one star</p> <p>:smileytongue:</p> <p>K Thanks</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Heh... starting a new collection quest Meadsong?  <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div>

[Daran]

<span><blockquote><hr>wr4ithd00d wrote:<p>What you win:  a broadcast to the zone that so-in-so beat whoever in a duel</p> <p>What more reward do you need?</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Spoken like a REAL duelist.</span><div></div>

[Renti]

<DIV>No reward, No Risk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simple as that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like doing a quest and not getting anything back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is only one other way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Set it up so before the duel, the inviting duelee can set some rules, e.g prizes, debt, loot, etc, and if the duelee being invited agrees, they battle!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simple as that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, when is dueling supposed to be on normal servers?</DIV>

[Fepp]

<span><blockquote><hr>wr4ithd00d wrote:<p>What you win:  a broadcast to the zone that so-in-so beat whoever in a duel</p> <p>What more reward do you need?</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> By that very same logic - an acceptable penalty for loosing would be "a broadcast to the zone that you lost to so-in-so in a duel". Its flawed</span>. <div></div>

[Mithru]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>AlaericBane wrote:<div></div> <div><i><b>Sassee:</b> While we are on the topic of PvP, and duels that are being added soon in the form of a live update, can you elaborate on the death penalty issue with regards to dueling? </i></div> <div> <b>Scott Hartsman:</b> For right now, we’re planning on going with penalty-free dueling in Arenas, but anywhere else, the standard death penalty will apply to the loser.It’s definitely a bit more realistic than throwaway/timekiller dueling. If you want to duel to 20% with your friend, you can duel to 20% with your friend. But if your friend goes too far, you’re going to pay the price.When there’s real risk, things are a lot more exciting.  </div> <p>So if you want penalty free killing do it in an arena.</p><hr></blockquote> This new and screwy conception of dueling is so darn exciting that absolutely no one will do it. Yes, they will end up arranging matches so that no one dies, unless they are level 50 I presume. Why? Because people don't seek out duels as an alternate way of adventuring. It's not the point. It was never the point. It never will be the point. Arenas? Won't arenas follow open PvP rules? Step in and you can be attacked by anyone and everyone? That's not a place to be dueling one-on-one. People didn't use the arena for duels in EQ1 unless they could get it to themselves. They used it for team PvP. If you wanted to go one-on-one you had to get everyone to agree to leave you be, and they may or may not care to. Even if they use instances to somehow get around that, why would you want ONE place for proper duels? Well, now THIS perhaps gets us to the bottom of things, doesn't it? The arena will be available with the exansion. Want duels done correctly? Pay up. </span><p>Message Edited by Mithrull on <span class=date_text>06-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:25 AM</span>