Combat System on Test

[Moorgard]

<DIV>As you know, we introduced our third round of combat changes on Test server at the same time as the recent major update. The focus on this round was adding a spell damage bonus for having high INT versus the target's WIS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A result of this latest change is that NPC casters on Test started doing higher amounts of damage. That was expected, and we needed a bit of time to make sure our new damage tables were working as anticipated. But we realize that also made normal playing a bit more difficult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make Test more playable, we've turned off the new combat system until the next round of changes is ready. Combat will match what it currently is on live servers, which should allow our testers to concentrate on other aspects of the latest update rather than dying to super nukes. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As always, thanks for playing on Test. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[ScottAdams]

<DIV>LOL Definetly a good idea!</DIV>

[Miral]

Lol, why not just leave the caster damage increase but remove that unneeded change where you upped NPC damage even more?!

[Violator]

<font size="3"><font face="Arial"><font size="2">What you talking about? Those 23k ice comets and 15k Nil distortions are too weak. </font> </font></font><div></div>

[Miral]

<P>hehe... I was just enjoying being able to one hit kill greys =( never even got a chance to fight green+ before the changes were taken off =( first two parts screwed stuff up and they were on test for quite a while... third part was there what, a day? two?</P> <P>btw why did the part 3 thread disappear but the first two threads are still around on the test updates board?</P><p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>05-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 PM</span>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>As you know, we introduced our third round of combat changes on Test server at the same time as the recent major update. The focus on this round was adding a spell damage bonus for having high INT versus the target's WIS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A result of this latest change is that NPC casters on Test started doing higher amounts of damage. That was expected, and we needed a bit of time to make sure our new damage tables were working as anticipated. But we realize that also made normal playing a bit more difficult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make Test more playable, we've turned off the new combat system until the next round of changes is ready. Combat will match what it currently is on live servers, which should allow our testers to concentrate on other aspects of the latest update <STRONG><EM><U>rather than dying to super nukes.</U></EM></STRONG> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As always, thanks for playing on Test. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes moor, turn it off, because the players on live are just going to be so very happy are dying to supernukes when u guys screw the pooch on this patch.  When ru gonna realize, that particular idea is not a good one.  Caster mobs on live already do more than enough damage, adding more isnt the right solution.</DIV>

[Miral]

Really makes one wonder, if they knew that would be a problem, WHY did they add MORE npc damage ABOVE what bonus was given from int? One extreme to another, I guess. The best way to do almost anything is one step at a time. please remember that.

[Evadne]

<div></div>Thankfully, we at Test have a sense of humor. I don't think I have ever laughed so hard as when Dagon and Fleeona starting gasping in guild chat, "Did that green just nuke me for 7k?"  "Uhhh....that would be a bug, ya think?" <div></div><p>Message Edited by Evadne on <span class=date_text>05-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:36 PM</span>

[ScottAdams]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Yes moor, turn it off, because the players on live are just going to be so very happy are dying to supernukes when u guys screw the pooch on this patch.  When ru gonna realize, that particular idea is not a good one.  Caster mobs on live already do more than enough damage, adding more isnt the right solution.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Moorgard has said many many times that the combat patch has mutiple pieces to it. This part was NEVER intended to go live by itself. </P> <P>They were doing a quick check of the mechanics of jsut this part of it on test. Fortunately they will no longer put the test folks thru the pain of having only this section live.</P> <P>Note there is no ETA on the full combat changer over patch. They are taking their time to get it right. Give them a break already.<BR></P>

[OperationsX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Violatortn wrote:<BR><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>What you talking about? Those 23k ice comets and 15k Nil distortions are too weak. </FONT><BR></FONT></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree that's weak sause yo!</DIV>

[Violator]

<font size="2"><font face="Arial">Actually, I have seen the Thulian Mangus nuke for over 7k on live server, and he is green. </font></font><div></div>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote: <DIV>As you know, we introduced our third round of combat changes on Test server at the same time as the recent major update. The focus on this round was adding a spell damage bonus for having high INT versus the target's WIS.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Um, no, I didn't know, although I admit I don't play on Test. Did the update notes get posted on the Test-only forums? I just looked at the public Test forums and there was no note there.Not that I'm entitled to the info or anything, I just like seeing what's being done! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>FamilyManFirst wrote:<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote: <DIV>As you know, we introduced our third round of combat changes on Test server at the same time as the recent major update. The focus on this round was adding a spell damage bonus for having high INT versus the target's WIS.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Um, no, I didn't know, although I admit I don't play on Test. Did the update notes get posted on the Test-only forums? I just looked at the public Test forums and there was no note there.Not that I'm entitled to the info or anything, I just like seeing what's being done! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Check the test notes forum, the notes there speak of this change.

[Sunrayn]

<DIV>Sticks and stones may break my bones but, those nukes would flat out kill me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Never been terrified of pulling a caster before.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sunrayn--Guard in the making</DIV> <DIV>Garinof--Summoner</DIV>

[Telbain]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>As you know, we introduced our third round of combat changes on Test server at the same time as the recent major update. The focus on this round was adding a spell damage bonus for having high INT versus the target's WIS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A result of this latest change is that NPC casters on Test started doing higher amounts of damage. That was expected, and we needed a bit of time to make sure our new damage tables were working as anticipated. But we realize that also made normal playing a bit more difficult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make Test more playable, we've turned off the new combat system until the next round of changes is ready. Combat will match what it currently is on live servers, which should allow our testers to concentrate on other aspects of the latest update rather than dying to super nukes. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As always, thanks for playing on Test. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Just a few questions:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>1. So mages use int to increase damage, their primary function. Priests increase wisdom on the off chance they get nuked? Mage bonus is solo/group/raid. Priest is raid and occasionally solo/group? Awesome</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>2. So int to nuke vs wisdom, including priest nukes? Great. Just like scouts are suppose to have strength to hit. Awesome.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Great changes <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Ferrel</FONT><BR></P>

[WuphonsReach]

STR vs AGI - Personally, as a scout, I like the idea that I have to make a trade-off between loading up on AGI or loading up on STR. AGI if I'm soloing, but not too much, or my melee damage would drop due to low STR. Makes for a good tactical set of choices that I have to make. (And now I have to consider keeping my WIS up as well, and perhaps even INT.)Personally, it makes the game more interesting to me as a player. My initial reaction was "oh bother", but thinking about it, I like that it requires a bit more thought as to whether you concentrate on one stat at the expense of others.

[Miral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Telbain wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>As you know, we introduced our third round of combat changes on Test server at the same time as the recent major update. The focus on this round was adding a spell damage bonus for having high INT versus the target's WIS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A result of this latest change is that NPC casters on Test started doing higher amounts of damage. That was expected, and we needed a bit of time to make sure our new damage tables were working as anticipated. But we realize that also made normal playing a bit more difficult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make Test more playable, we've turned off the new combat system until the next round of changes is ready. Combat will match what it currently is on live servers, which should allow our testers to concentrate on other aspects of the latest update rather than dying to super nukes. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As always, thanks for playing on Test. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Just a few questions:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>1. So mages use int to increase damage, their primary function. Priests increase wisdom on the off chance they get nuked? Mage bonus is solo/group/raid. Priest is raid and occasionally solo/group? Awesome</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>2. So int to nuke vs wisdom, including priest nukes? Great. Just like scouts are suppose to have strength to hit. Awesome.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Great changes <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Ferrel</FONT><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>anyone can increase their int to get a spell damage bonus, just as anyone could increase their wis to get a spell mitigation bonus. I think this narrow thinking that stat=class is what they are trying to eliminate here.

[Kyriel]

<DIV>im confused...just skimmed threw really...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so, a tank now needs to increase wis & int to not get nuked for 13k ? :smileysurprised::smileysad:</DIV>

[Miral]

<P>heh just wis...</P> <P>wis is for magic defense, int is for magic offense.</P> <P>wis=magic agility, int=magic strength</P> <p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>05-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 PM</span>

[BigDa]

<P>This must be part of the priest balancing, yes?  Because we (mystics) already do an awesome amount of damage compaired to other classes, esp. casters, we are having our stats for power pool and DPS spread out, while mages get to concentrate on one stat for both?...</P> <P>Great.</P> <P>Maybe, at last, we have the explaination for why mystic (medium) armor has much better INT stats than WIS?...</P> <P>It's nice to have the spell defense from WIS, though, now I just have to work out how to get spell aggro on me but keep melee aggro on the tank!  And up my health lots...</P> <P>*rolls eyes*</P> <P>Ow - I strained my sarcasm muscle...</P>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote: <DIV>As you know, we introduced our third round of combat changes on Test server at the same time as the recent major update. The focus on this round was adding a spell damage bonus for having high INT versus the target's WIS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A result of this latest change is that NPC casters on Test started doing higher amounts of damage. That was expected, and we needed a bit of time to make sure our new damage tables were working as anticipated. But we realize that also made normal playing a bit more difficult.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make Test more playable, we've turned off the new combat system until the next round of changes is ready. Combat will match what it currently is on live servers, which should allow our testers to concentrate on other aspects of the latest update rather than dying to super nukes. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As always, thanks for playing on Test. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><hr></blockquote>Perhaps NPCs are already doing double and triple normal spell damage to make things more of a challenge should be re-thought with this type of change to how spell damage works?

[laedyana]

Will +INT also affect the damage output of conjuror and necro pets?

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<blockquote><hr>FamilyManFirst wrote:<blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote: <DIV>As you know, we introduced our third round of combat changes on Test server at the same time as the recent major update. The focus on this round was adding a spell damage bonus for having high INT versus the target's WIS.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Um, no, I didn't know, although I admit I don't play on Test. Did the update notes get posted on the Test-only forums? I just looked at the public Test forums and there was no note there.Not that I'm entitled to the info or anything, I just like seeing what's being done! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Check the test notes forum, the notes there speak of this change.<hr></blockquote>Oh, <i>there</i> it is, in the Requests From The Devs forum. I was looking for it in the Test Server Update Notes forum, silly me. O.oThanks, Pinski.

[initoci]

AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????? ????:smileysurprised:

[Grunar]

<DIV>So if Wis helps with spell mitigation... what are resists for?</DIV>

[Miral]

spell avoidance. Like when a poor mage gets that dreaded "resisted" message on his huge nuke or root. <p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>05-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:40 PM</span>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Grunarch wrote:<DIV>So if Wis helps with spell mitigation... what are resists for?</DIV><hr></blockquote>As I understand it (and I may not) Wis only affects any damage bonus granted by high Int. Resists work on the base effect on the spell.As an example, if a spell does 100 points of damage and the Int of the caster adds 20 to that, a moderate Wis might bring the bonus down to 5, while a good Resist might bring the base down to 30, resulting in 35 points of damage.Then again, I could be completely wrong. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[latincau]

Just a quick and Humble question   <FONT color=#ff0000 size=7>SHOULDN'T THIS BE TAKEN CARE OF DURING BETA BEFORE THE GAME GOES LIVE??????????????????????????????????</FONT>

[Evadne]

Perhaps you should have chosen a font that fit the window a bit better... A better color would have been a shade of green, lime perhaps.  Red is just so overdone.  And, what about font style?  Come on now, your point could have been made more successfully if you had considered other fonts, surely? ~Eva <div></div>

[Miral]

<P>I could post some psycho-analytical babble about how you are attacking his style instead of the substance, but I won't (since its pretty obvious [Removed for Content])</P> <P>Anyways, I agree that the game should have been tuned better during the alpha/beta phases, but hey, its SOE, what did you expect? Thats how they do things... release a borked game then try to fix it later. Thats how they have done it for years, its nothing new.</P>

[Telbain]

<P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Miral</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Your points are good, but you're calling me narrow minded when you're just as guilty of it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Lets evaluate the situation once more in depth.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>If you're a fighter, you raise strength. You get more power, you hit more often and you do more damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>If you're a scout, you raise agility. You get more power, you no longer get hit less due to the agility nerf thanks to monks having 1000% avoidance. (Get some nude tunes and see exactly how much avoidance agility adds. You'll be gravely disappointed)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>If you're a mage, you raise intellegence. You get more power, you nuke for more damage, you hit for more often.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>If you're a priest, you raise wisdom. You get more power, you resist spells better.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Now you're telling me to raise my int to compensate. I say, why? Lets not think "narrow" shall we? First, the effect that strength and intellegence has is better than the effect wisdom and agility has. 3 effects vs 2 effects vs 1 effect. Point to mages and fighters. Priests even. Scouts minus 1. Second, strength and intellegence is the primary stat of their classes and DIRECTLY effects what those classes do in TWO ways. Damage and the ability to hit. They DO NOT have to go out and compensate with another stat. Fighters and Mages can pump everything into intellegence or strength and be fine. In addition to that, what in game can directly raise the damage a mage does right now? Upgrading a spell, but that applies to everything equally. Beyond that? Nothing. This change allows mages with extra int a bonus and I am GLAD. They SHOULD get this.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Lets turn to priests. What in game allows you to resist spells? Oh... resists on equipment of course! In fact, if you find good resist gear, you can mitigate everything. You can use buffs. We did Darathar and the highest his AE hit me was for 300.  Now, what in game allows a priest to heal more, besides upgrades? Nothing. Does this change help them? No. Does it buff their primary ability? No.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Fighters on their primary stat buff their primary function and they should do so. Mages on their primary stat buff their primary function and they should do so. Scouts and priests on their primary stat get nothing. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Apparently, however, I am thinking narrow. To me, it seems that the fact mages and fighters get everything out of their primary stat, but priests and scouts have to balance two stats, isn't equal. My vision may be skewed though. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Its simple. Each stat should serve as many functions to its primary class as each other stat does for their class. Mages and fighters get three bonuses out of their primary stat (which they can get easier). Scouts get one bonus and priests get two.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Why should I have to balance two stats when fighters and mages don't? They want wisdom for resists? Don't try to pull that, there ARE resists. I think mages and fighters are fine but their scout and priests cousins need the same benefit. No nerfs to the two you actually got right, bring everyone else up.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Ferrel</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Telbain on <SPAN class=date_text>05-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:57 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Telbain on <span class=date_text>05-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 AM</span>

[DonSavan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Telbain wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Why should I have to balance two stats when fighters and mages don't? They want wisdom for resists? Don't try to pull that, there ARE resists. I think mages and fighters are fine but their scout and priests cousins need the same benefit. No nerfs to the two you actually got right, bring everyone else up.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Ferrel</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I disagree, I think they should try to make mages spread their stats out more.  They are already doing this with fighters, I don't know if you read, but with the combat changes, agility will factor into mitigation(at least that's how I understand it).  And now tanks will want to opt for wisdom too if they are going up against a mage npc.(so will scouts due to AOE spells)</P> <P>To me it is boring to just look for equipment with all one stat.  I like the idea of sacrificing agility for strength when I'm not tanking.  Or sacrificing strength for agility when I am.</P> <P>IMHO mages are the only ones that can only concentrate on one stat, and excell.  my solution would be to add another benefit to Wisdom....</P> <DIV>Things that wisdom could influence....</DIV> <DIV>-Resist rate of spells being cast on mobs</DIV> <DIV>-strength of buff spells</DIV> <DIV>-strength of debuff spells</DIV> <DIV>-strength of heals</DIV> <P>(strength of heals, wouldn't get mages to opt for Wisdom, but it would be a lot more helpfull to priests than spell mitigation.)</P> <P>P.S.</P> <P>AFAIK, Agility factors into how often you hit, not strength<BR></P>

[spyderopt]

<div></div><div></div><div>"Things that wisdom could influence....</div> -strength of heals" Keep in mind, heals don't get resisted they 100% of the time land if in range, so before we trivialize combat by making non-resisting heals be able to keep everybody always at full hp, lets keep it in perspective what spells are being used against players and which ones against mobs. Not to say WIS shouldn't effect heals, but not to as large of a degree. If INT nukes will be checked against WIS of mobs, how would WIS heals be checked? What if WIS wasnt a factor on resisting damage and only effected heals/power pool for healer classes and INT only effected power pool and damage for nukers, would that mean healers are by far a more "effective" class to play since heals cannot be resisted but nukes often are? Should those unresistable heals be on the same "scaling" as nukes? Is it right in that melees can boost STR and get power and more damage in some cases, yet these very same people complain about INT giving power pool and modifying damage? Hrm. Personally don't really care for the WIS effecting damage taken, perhaps should be more effective for fizzles/resists vs mobs/higher on average to the "cap" of current heals or something, not sure what to make of having to calc WIS in with resist gear, so hard to tell since the player testing feedback on the forums for test server is so vague and they're not really letting higher level characters in already setup gear/stats copy to test things on a larger scale so who knows what they're doing, as it is, they're adjusting spell tiers aside from all this. Probably little early to tell, they havent even started to adjust the spell tiers yet /cringe [hide] Variable overload <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><p>Message Edited by spyderoptik on <span class=date_text>05-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 AM</span>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>FamilyManFirst wrote:<blockquote><hr>Grunarch wrote:<DIV>So if Wis helps with spell mitigation... what are resists for?</DIV><hr></blockquote>As I understand it (and I may not) Wis only affects any damage bonus granted by high Int. Resists work on the base effect on the spell.As an example, if a spell does 100 points of damage and the Int of the caster adds 20 to that, a moderate Wis might bring the bonus down to 5, while a good Resist might bring the base down to 30, resulting in 35 points of damage.Then again, I could be completely wrong. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>I think you got the general idea.Mitigation seems to effect if the spell effects you at all. So, if you have low heat mitigation, the chances of a heat based attack will have a better chance of landing. If you have a very high wisdom, then the actual damage you take will be adjusted. So if your wisdom is low, you will take a great amount of damage, as the spell will hit for more then it's normal damage. Lets use the 100 points you used.Player gets a heat based spell landed on him. The damage is 100. The mob casting the spell has an INT of 300, the player has a wisdom of 56, so the damage would have a bonus based on the difference between INT and WIS, 244, so the bonus might be around 50%, so the damage is now 150 points.Conversly, if the WIS is higher then the INT, the damage might be lowered, so a WIS of 300 against an INT of 200 migh result in less damage.But they haven't said this, so I don't think it's something they would do. Healers that get thier WIS up to 350-400 would be taking less damage from AE attacks and spells. Which means healers face less risk against epic mobs and that lowers the challenge factor.

[Naggyba]

Yea, mobs on Live already do 10 - 30k+ nukes. What's another 10k or more. I mean dead is dead right. Not like you can go any further negative.The casting mobs are already way too powerful as it is. They don't need a combat change.They already guarantee that there will be deaths as it is with these mobs. Why do they feel the need to make sure there are always going to be total wipes?Talk about unfair advantages, and they complain about players finding unfair advantages and making use of them. Everytime the players find a system that works that allows them to take down a mob, SOE changes it and gives the mobs and even more unfair advantage.I would LOVE to have 5k - 10k riposte where mobs die in one hit, like scouts do, or 30k nukes.There is only so much advantage you can give mobs beofre people start saying enough already and the heck with it. It's near that point on live now. Don't need to push it even further.

[Miral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Telbain wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>If you're a fighter, you raise strength. You get more power, you hit more often and you do more damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>If you're a scout, you raise agility. You get more power, you no longer get hit less due to the agility nerf thanks to monks having 1000% avoidance. (Get some nude tunes and see exactly how much avoidance agility adds. You'll be gravely disappointed)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>If you're a mage, you raise intellegence. You get more power, you nuke for more damage, you hit for more often.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>If you're a priest, you raise wisdom. You get more power, you resist spells better.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Now you're telling me to raise my int to compensate. I say, why? Lets not think "narrow" shall we? First, the effect that strength and intellegence has is better than the effect wisdom and agility has. 3 effects vs 2 effects vs 1 effect. </FONT><FONT color=#cc00ff>Why should I have to balance two stats when fighters and mages don't? They want wisdom for resists? Don't try to pull that, there ARE resists. I think mages and fighters are fine but their scout and priests cousins need the same benefit. No nerfs to the two you actually got right, bring everyone else up.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I tried to cut the quote down as much as possible but well... its still big heh</P> <P>Okay, lets adress things in order. </P> <P>First of all, I missed the memo that said strength and int effect attack speed? </P> <P>Second, most of the agility nerf bandaid was removed with these combat changes (don't go test it, they're not there anymore <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</P> <P>Third, ALL classes have to raise more than one stat to be truly effective. Can you imagine a Paladin that put absolutely no points into STA or Wis or Agil? oy. And of course Int too if they use spells a lot. Then theres scouts, which also need Agil, Str, and thats about it. Then we come to Mages. They need int for power and damage, but that won't matter if they are dead. Keep in mind that mages are stuck with the weakest armor all throughout the game. Throw in some agil and wis for avoidance and spell mitigation. Throw on some sta so they can survive a crit. Finally, while not completely neccessary, throw on some Str so they don't get burdened by a weaken spell, which they would definitely not survive the onslaught from. Okay, now we come to priests. Priests are all over the board in terms of armor, except none as weak as the mages. We'll go with the middlegrounds here and use shaman. They already have the armor class of a scout. They need Wis for power, which also gives them spell mitigation. Now you have good physical AND spell mitigation. Now, if you decide you want to do higher damage, you'll need some int. You may also choose to add some sta or str for the same reasons as a mage, though you are better egquipped to handle it without these stats.</P> <P>Fourth, ties in to point the Third, Priests DO NOT have to spread between two stats anymore than other classes do. You only have to spread to int if you want to do bigger damage, just as mages only need to spread between stats if they, well, you know, want to live long enough to get their ub3r 1337 damage out.<BR></P>

[DonSavan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Third, ALL classes have to raise more than one stat to be truly effective. Can you imagine a Paladin that put absolutely no points into STA or Wis or Agil? oy. And of course Int too if they use spells a lot. Then theres scouts, which also need Agil, Str, and thats about it. Then we come to Mages. They need int for power and damage, but that won't matter if they are dead. Keep in mind that mages are stuck with the weakest armor all throughout the game. Throw in some agil and wis for avoidance and spell mitigation. Throw on some sta so they can survive a crit. Finally, while not completely neccessary, throw on some Str so they don't get burdened by a weaken spell, which they would definitely not survive the onslaught from. Okay, now we come to priests. Priests are all over the board in terms of armor, except none as weak as the mages. We'll go with the middlegrounds here and use shaman. They already have the armor class of a scout. They need Wis for power, which also gives them spell mitigation. Now you have good physical AND spell mitigation. Now, if you decide you want to do higher damage, you'll need some int. You may also choose to add some sta or str for the same reasons as a mage, though you are better egquipped to handle it without these stats.</P> <P>Fourth, ties in to point the Third, Priests DO NOT have to spread between two stats anymore than other classes do. You only have to spread to int if you want to do bigger damage, just as mages only need to spread between stats if they, well, you know, want to live long enough to get their ub3r 1337 damage out.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Scouts need stamina too, I tank quite a bit as a scout.  And we will need wisdom as well once the changes go in, due to AOE spells.</P> <P>I don't play a mage so I may be wrong that they can only focus on int.  But from what I can tell, they aren't expected to tank, and they can be out of range of the AOE spells.  So if they know how to manage their agro(or stuns/roots), they can only focus on intelligence and play their class at the peak of their potential.</P>

[Erronn]

<DIV>All I can say to this is....yuk! Let our "resists" actually be what helps us "resist" spells...not stats like STR, WIS, INT, etc. Common, who came up with this crazy idea?!? Really, this is stupid!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plain and simple...our resists and level should be what counts toward our ability to resist spells. That's it!</DIV>

[Telbain]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR><BR> <P>First of all, I missed the memo that said strength and int effect attack speed? </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff>I'm fairly confident I did not say strength or intellegence adds to attack speed. Hit more often meant accuracy. I apologize for my choice of words.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff>I am also not disagreeing that you should have to be well rounded in stats. My point is, regardless of the fact that a tank should get agility, they get MORE out of their primary stat then scouts and priests.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff>Ferrel</FONT></DIV>

[Miral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Telbain wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR><BR> <P>First of all, I missed the memo that said strength and int effect attack speed?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff>I'm fairly confident I did not say strength or intellegence adds to attack speed. Hit more often meant accuracy. I apologize for my choice of words.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff>I am also not disagreeing that you should have to be well rounded in stats. My point is, regardless of the fact that a tank should get agility, they get MORE out of their primary stat then scouts and priests.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc00ff>Ferrel</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Didn't see where it said int helps with accuracy either... mind pointing it out?</DIV> <DIV>As for a tank getting more out of str, I don't really agree with that. Tanks get from STR power, which is used for attacks, taunts, etc., and higher melee damage, which really isn't needed for a tank as much as mitigation and avoidance are. Sure, you also get higher weight capacity, but once you get beyond a certain low threshold, that doesn't really matter much at all. Now, scouts have agility as their primary stat. Out of this, a scout gets Power, which is used for attacks and buffs/debuffs, and also good defense. Now, where does this put us? Tanks get STR which does not help with their basic tanking role much if at all. Scouts get Agility which helps them stay alive. The longer you are alive, the more chances you have of defeating your foe. Both classes get Power, which they use for attacking. But since Tanks are meatshields and Scouts are the ones expected to do large damage, this helps them more in the damage department. Following me? I'm starting to lose myself from run ons and such but bear with me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Finally, we come to priests. Priests are unique in that they have a special role that is VITAL to gameplay, and that no other archtype can fill. If you make their primary stat directly effect that role, then no other archtype reaps the benefits of that stat at all*. So instead, Wis is made to indirectly effect the priests' main role. It adds power, which helps a priest to get more heals out than without it. It raises arcane resistances, so that priests don't die in one hit from a spell. Hopefully you can see where I am coming from on my explainations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And above the quoted post, someone asks that resists be what resists, not wis. This IS how it is designed. Resists effect your chance of completely resisting an attack. They are the avoidance of the arcane. Wis, on the other hand, is there to negate the damage bonuses, and base damage (?), of spells. Your arcane agility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*=note that crusaders do have heals, but most of these are long recast emergency only spells.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>05-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:14 AM</span>

[Telbain]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>As you know, we introduced our third round of combat changes on Test server at the same time as the recent major update. The focus on this round was adding <STRONG>a spell damage bonus for having high INT versus the target's WIS</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff>Accuracy is implied. How will the new changes determine accuracy? By your strength vs your targets agility. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff>The spell system is the same. You get a damage bonus with a higher int vs a lower wisdom. Let’s read deeper into it.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff>A. Wisdom does what? Allows spell mitigation. A spell can be mitigated down to the point of a resist can it not? </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff>B. Spells have an implied accuracy. By accuracy, I mean resist or no resist. If you do damage your spell hit, if you are resisted it missed.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff>Thus, intelligence is treated EXACTLY like strength. Wisdom is treated EXACTLY like agility. Two superior stats to two inferior ones. Strength gives power, damage and accuracy vs power and the ability to dodge a hit, if we use the new changes. Three effects VS two. The effects are also linked directly to the primary function of fighters. Agility is not. Scouts do not exist to tank and dodge. Intelligence gives power, damage and accuracy vs power and the ability to mitigate or "dodge" spells. Three effects VS two. One linked directly to Mages one not directly linked to priests. Mages exist to deal damage. Priests exist to heal and buff, not personally mitigate spells. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff>Fighters do NOT have to raise agility, only those who will be tanking. Everyone else can get by just with their primary stat and benefit hugely. Mages do NOT have to raise wisdom to mitigate spells; they can get resists off their gear. They can buff only their primary stat and benefit massively. Scouts have to split their stats unnecessarily. Priests don't have to split their stats unless they choose to nuke. They are not, however, getting the same benefit from their primary stat that mages and fighters are. That is as clear as I can explain it.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff>I can't spell it out any differently. Fighters and Mages ARE getting a bonus here and I don’t begrudge them it. Their primary stat does more for them, period. You clearly do not agree. I accept that I cannot change it. I think our discussion here, at least between you and I, is complete. We will never sway the other. Everyone else will just have to read our arguments and agree or disagree.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff>Ferrel</FONT></SPAN></P>

[Miral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Telbain wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff>Fighters do NOT have to raise agility, only those who will be tanking. </FONT></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>heh from what I've seen, a non-tanking fighter is nothing but a gimped scout or priest heh (from my experience of groups that include one main tank and a second fighter just to fill the group or to level him... strangely the second tank is almost always a crusader that doesn't even use his heals or wards) The line I quoted is about the same as saying "Mages do NOT have to raise Int, only those that want to deal damage". Which is technically true, just like the quoted line really. </DIV> <P>btw up higher on the page you accused me of calling you narrow minded, I never really did though. I said that they were trying to get rid of the narrow minded thinking of one stat per class, one class per stat.</P><p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>05-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:04 AM</span>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Telbain wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote: <DIV>As you know, we introduced our third round of combat changes on Test server at the same time as the recent major update. The focus on this round was adding <STRONG>a spell damage bonus for having high INT versus the target's WIS</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Accuracy is implied. How will the new changes determine accuracy? By your strength vs your targets agility. </FONT></P><hr></blockquote>Telbain, I disagree. Of course, neither of us has any data to back up our opinions, but this is my understanding.Strength has <b>nothing</b> to do with accuracy. It doesn't now on live and nothing in the Combat Changes have indicated that it will later. Strength has everything to do with damage. The higher your Strength the higher the damage you do when you hit. The new Combat Changes are going to reinforce that: if your Strength is higher than your target's Agility you'll get a damage <b>bonus</b>.Please note that last word. If your target's Agility is higher than your Strength it won't mitigate your damage any, it'll simply eliminate the damage bonus of a high Strength.Agility has <b>everything</b> to do with accuracy. The higher your Agility the more often you will hit. Also, the higher your Agility the better your Avoidance. Please note that they have eliminated, or at least reduced, the Agi nerf of last January in the upcoming Combat Changes.<blockquote><hr><P><FONT color=#cc00ff>The spell system is the same. You get a damage bonus with a higher int vs a lower wisdom.</FONT></P><hr></blockquote>Correct.<blockquote><hr><P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Let’s read deeper into it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>A. Wisdom does what? Allows spell mitigation. A spell can be mitigated down to the point of a resist can it not? </FONT></P><hr></blockquote>Precisely correct. A high Wisdom can reduce the damage <b>bonus</b> on a spell from high Int down to zero. It doesn't appear, however, that a target with a Wisdom higher than the caster's Int will get any mitigation of the spell's base damage from that high Wisdom.My take on these effects is that, of the Archetypes, only Mages get their main stat and stat bonus aligned.<UL><LI>Fighters are tanks and value Avoidance and Mitigation over damage. Their primary stat, however, is Strength which is gaining an offensive bonus, not a defensive one.</LI><LI>Rogues are damage-dealers and value damage over Avoidance and Mitigation, yet their primary stat is Agility which is getting a defensive bonus, not an offensive one.</LI><LI>Priests are healers but their primary stat is Wisdom which is getting a defensive bonus.</LI><LI>Only Mages, who are damage dealers, are getting a bonus to their primary stat, Int, which is in-line with their primary function, offense.</LI></UL>To give credit to others who have posted here, the above is ridiculously simplified, of course. Many Fighters love doing damage even when it's not their primary function; heck, half of the Fighter Archetype is offensively aligned. Rogues need defense in addition to offense for soloing, dealing with AOE attacks, offtanking, etc. Priests will welcome the reduced or eliminated Int bonus on AOE spells, as well as spells they face when soloing.Just realize that only one Archetype is getting their new stat bonus and primary function aligned.

[Miral]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Just realize that only one Archetype is getting their new stat bonus and primary function aligned.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which may seem like its unfair, but when its compared against the problems that mages have, especially the non-sorcerer ones, it actually balances the classes out a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just as a note I have a Druid, Shaman, Paladin, Predator, Berserker, Necromancer, and Warlock all around the same level, with a Brawler coming up close behind, so I have considered this from all angles.... And I really think the way these combat changes were done, with the exception of destroying the bonus of using a tower shield and giving NPCs higher nuke damage on top of the int bonus, really would help to make this game better.</DIV>

[OperationsX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naggybait wrote:<BR>Yea, mobs on Live already do 10 - 30k+ nukes. What's another 10k or more. I mean dead is dead right. Not like you can go any further negative.<BR><BR>The casting mobs are already way too powerful as it is. They don't need a combat change.<BR><BR>They already guarantee that there will be deaths as it is with these mobs. Why do they feel the need to make sure there are always going to be total wipes?<BR><BR>Talk about unfair advantages, and they complain about players finding unfair advantages and making use of them. Everytime the players find a system that works that allows them to take down a mob, SOE changes it and gives the mobs and even more unfair advantage.<BR><BR>I would LOVE to have 5k - 10k riposte where mobs die in one hit, like scouts do, or 30k nukes.<BR><BR>There is only so much advantage you can give mobs beofre people start saying enough already and the heck with it. It's near that point on live now. Don't need to push it even further.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>When a mob uses ice comet on you, you should die instantly. It SHOULD nuke you for 70k damage even though you can only get about 10kish</DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok honestly What  is going on? do mobs really nuke people for stupid amounts of damage on live currently? Heck are you fighting, I'm not arguing here I just really would like to know, are these specifically raid mobs? Then why are they upping that damage? That's just hallarious LOL</DIV> <P>Message Edited by OperationsX on <SPAN class=date_text>05-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:54 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by OperationsX on <span class=date_text>05-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 PM</span>

[Telbain]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Telbain wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#cc00ff>Fighters do NOT have to raise agility, only those who will be tanking. </FONT></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>heh from what I've seen, a non-tanking fighter is nothing but a gimped scout or priest... </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Clearly our game experience is different. In a raid situation there are many many fighters who are not tanking. Monks, berserkers, paladins, shadowknights and extra guardians. Certain people are designated to tank the mob. Should the mob switch its target and it isn't to one of the designated tanks, you've screwed up.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>I see you're listing examples from an experience group. Very valid and I agree with your point. I don't do experience groups, however, nor have I in a long time. My life is raid after raid every day. My assessment of the situation is equally correct. Fighters do not have to raise agility, only the one to three that will be tanking.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>As far as agility having any effect on accuracy, you'll have to cite it. I can cite the combat changes document, however. From the combat change thread, by moorgard himself: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=45" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=45</A></FONT></P> <P><EM>-Increasing your Agility improves your base chance of avoiding an attack</EM></P> <P><EM>-Melee damage bonuses are now calculated based on the attacker's strength versus the defender's agility.</EM></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Again, accuracy is implied by those two lines. Agility improves your chance of avoiding an attack, just like wisdom has a chance of resisting a spell. Your damage bonus comes from strength and is compared vs your targets agility. Just like intelligence vs wisdom, if you mitigate it enough the spell is resisted. If the agility is high enough, your bonus will be zero and you will miss. You claim I do not have data, but it is fairly clear.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>I also ask for you to point me to anything that suggest that agility improves accuracy. The manual might say it. Some old beta documents might say it. They also say wisdom helps you mitigate spells. If it does, then why is it in the new combat system? Please cite where agility improves accuracy in the new combat system and I'll fully reverse my opinion that it gets an unfair shake vs strength.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Ferrel</FONT><BR></P>

[Miral]

<P>Of course those fighters are there to tank if the main tank goes down, right? so tanking is still their role in that group, even if they're not doing it ALL the time...</P> <P>Anyways I don't think I said agility makes you accurate did I? If so I was probably on a steroid inhaler high at the time ehehehehehehe</P> <P>As for what you quoted from the changes... The first line does indeed say that agility improves your avoidance. thats the only part there that has to do with accuracy. The second line is about damage <EM>bonuses, </EM>which are applied on top of your base damage. You can have all the strength in the world or none at all, if the attack is avoided, it does no damage. Now where the amount of strength factors in is how much extra damage you can do if and when you do hit.</P> <P>Really now that you have pointed that out, I realized something. Agility actually gives as much if not more bonuses than Strength does. Agility effects your base chance of avoidance. That is, completely avoiding an attack to take absolutely no damage. Agility also allows you to mitigate the damage bonuses your opponent gains from strength. The parts I am not completely clear on are whether or not strength effects base damage (which would bring its usefulness to about equal with agility) and whether or not agility does infact still make one more accurate (which would make it even more useful than strength).</P> <DIV>edit 1: Is it just me or does the way this debate is going seem abit ironic? It seems you are proving my other points in trying to disprove another point... Don't mean anything by that, jsut seemed kind of wierd in a "whoa dude thats wierd" kind of way</DIV> <DIV>edit 2: Ahh I see now you were responding to the other guy about the agility accuracy thing. Quotes confuse me sometimes =P and I don't always remember what I say...</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Miral on <SPAN class=date_text>05-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:05 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>05-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:09 AM</span>

[Endraal]

<P>From what I've observed - there is one system governing all damage.</P> <P>Melee and spell are treated equally. You have melee avoidance(defence skill , I'm assuming) and spellavoidance(spellavoidance skill) where the game says "you miss" in regards to melee and "mob resists" in regards to casting.</P> <DIV>You have melee mitigation (mitigation=melee resists vs slashing/crushing/piercing&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and spell mitigation (mitigation=spell resists vs heat/cold/poison/disease/mental/magic).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What gets ppl tangled up , imho, is the fact that the game produces the "mob resists" message when you actually miss due to the mobs spellavoidance.</DIV> <DIV>As a coercer I've had ample time to observe this directly. In fights with Darathar , for example, my spells hit him, but are mitigated into nothingness every single time.</DIV> <DIV>How do I know that I hit him you ask? Because , once again  as a coercer, the only damage I can do to Darathar is the HO damage. In order for the HO to trigger , the spell needs to land - it does not need to do damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation is your resist vs a specific type of attack - be it piercing or heat. The higher that specific resist is the less damage you take. Everything in this game can be mitigated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So - there is avoidance(spell avoidance+melee avoidance) and mitigation(melee resist + spell resist)</DIV> <DIV>SOE are now changing the way some things work in relation to others - but the changes are not in any way, shape or form fundamental. They're moving the numbers around a bit , and hopefully they'll get it right. Personally I have no trust in their skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know if that helps or hinders any of you on your personal missions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Endraal on <span class=date_text>05-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 AM</span>

[Miral]

Hm and you made me think of something else entirely... The comparing of int vs enemy wis or enemy int vs player wis or their melee counterparts is probably mostly useless anyways, since most mobs (other than those strewn around for boring grinding) have special rules all their own... like, being completely immune to certain types of attacks <EM><STRONG>no matter what</STRONG></EM>. Which brings about yet another point. "Weapon quality (Fabled, etc) has more effect". How does this tie into melee classes vs mage balance? If this means that higher quality weapons will grant extra damage bonus percentages like I think it does, then that alone gives the melee classes an advantage over mages, who do almost no damage with melee weapons hehe <p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>05-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:15 AM</span>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Telbain wrote:<P><FONT color=#cc00ff>As far as agility having any effect on accuracy, you'll have to cite it.</FONT></P><hr></blockquote>Okay, you got me on that one. I couldn't find a citation to back me up. I would have sworn I saw that somewhere but, if so, I can't find it again.<blockquote><hr><P><FONT color=#cc00ff>I can cite the combat changes document, however. From the combat change thread, by moorgard himself: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=45" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=45</A></FONT></P> <P><EM>-Increasing your Agility improves your base chance of avoiding an attack</EM></P> <P><EM>-Melee damage bonuses are now calculated based on the attacker's strength versus the defender's agility.</EM></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Again, accuracy is implied by those two lines.</FONT></P><hr></blockquote>Sorry, I don't see the implication. Increasing Agility improves your Avoidance. Increasing Strength improves a damage bonus, said bonus subject to a reduction if the target's Agility is high. Nowhere does that imply that increasing Strength will improve accuracy. If the target's Agility is high enough the <b>damage</b> <u>bonus</u> will be zero but that has nothing to do with hitting or missing.