A question prompted by the FoH stuff....

[GryffinMM]

<DIV>Since in-game 1st are recorded in this game and special titles are given out, etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is it really fair to allow those players who have special access to content to also get the rewards of the 1st time wins/discoveries after the content goes live?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I certainly applaud them putting in the time and effort to help the game, but is it an intended reward that they always get to have the credit for the server-wide 1sts that result from that new content?  Doesn't that sort of bar almost everyone else from getting those neat titles, etc?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game has a neat system of showing server-wide 1sts and server 1sts.  This practice seems to be slightly at odds with it.  Maybe it is an intended reward, and if so, cool.  If not, I was curious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any thoughts?</DIV> <DIV>Aadune of HighKeep</DIV>

[BloodSmo]

I would have to agree, how is it fair to tell a group of people where to go and what to fight and they get all the rewards.  Doesn't seem very fair to me, if FoH was on my server i would be p.issed.  testing content is one thing, i dont see anything wrong with that, but letting people get to content before anyone else and letting them get the reward..........this is fair how?

[Tag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BloodSmoke wrote:<BR> I would have to agree, how is it fair to tell a group of people where to go and what to fight and they get all the rewards.  Doesn't seem very fair to me, if FoH was on my server i would be p.issed.  testing content is one thing, i dont see anything wrong with that, but letting people get to content before anyone else and letting them get the reward..........this is fair how? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You are right they are on my server and it saddens me that they have been given an advantage. Why not allow everyone to test on the test servers with their live characters? They have been given a clear advantage just look here (<A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer_discovery.vm?characterId=202539202" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer_discovery.vm?characterId=202539202</A>) and see all the discoveries 1 of FoH had related to the adventure pack. It just makes the rankings on the players site even more meaningless. <p>Message Edited by Tagga on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:45 PM</span>

[Eneg]

Didn't the FoH copy go though a couple months ago? I dont why this is all of the sudden the Hot Topic. Then again 90% of the people who post here dont even have a test character. /shrug Personally, I dont think having an extra week to work on strats is all that game-breaking. Maybe I'd think differently if I had a char on Permafrost.. who knows. I'm just glad SOMEONE is testing high end content. <div></div>

[Fund]

<DIV>I would ask myself this - if FoH did not have test server access, would they still be getting a lot of "firsts"? I have a feeling, if they are a dedicated as they were in EQ1, the answer would be yes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eneg]

<span><blockquote><hr>Fundin wrote:<div>I would ask myself this - if FoH did not have test server access, would they still be getting a lot of "firsts"? I have a feeling, if they are a dedicated as they were in EQ1, the answer would be yes.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>The answer is probably yes, either them or AL (who also had character copies). Now that everyone is bouncing off the level cap, things are more competitive, but throughout the last several months FoH was getting plenty of firsts w/o the test server.</span><div></div>

[Noah]

<DIV>You realize thousands of players were in Beta and got to experience content before a majority of the player base?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think we are looking at the lesser of two evils here.   </DIV>

[Opa]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>You realize thousands of players were in Beta and got to experience content before a majority of the player base?  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I suspect I'm not sure how relevant that is in this case. Certainly we're talking about very different things. And the fact that "thousands" of players were in beta, and not a handful of the most well-known raiding guilds. People are getting riled up about this precisely because, unlike beta, this was not available to thousands of people, it was available only to a select few.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sure FoH would likely have been the first to do many of the things they've done, test preview or no test preview.  But that doesn't really change the fact of the matter. Personally, I don't care about discoveries and such. But there are people who do, and if those people said that FoH had an unfair advantage, they'd be right, even if in the end it would have been the same either way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as for Blackguard's comment in the previous post like this one (which was locked): there's no doubt that this testing is being done for the benefit of the game. That does not mean, however, that the selection criteria did not reflect favoritism. Clearly, certain guilds were chosen, other were not. On what grounds, if not favorites? How did it "just so happen" that Ardent Legion and Fires of Heaven, two of the most conspicuously hardcore raid guilds, get chosen over the others?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thank the people who test this game and make it better. But I understand the way everyone else feels about the matter. Even if it's blown out of proportion, the people who are crying foul have a reason to, I think.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Opaki</DIV> <DIV>Permafrost</DIV>

[GryffinMM]

<P>This is no a flame against FoH and I'd really appreciate it if it stays that way!!</P> <P> </P> <P>Say the next expansion is NOT tested by FoH but instead by Clan Bunnyfluff, wouldn't FoH (along with everyone else) like a real chance to get the server-wide 1sts?  It is a question of allowing testers to get server-wide credit, NOT a question about FOH!!</P> <P> </P> <P>Aadune of HighKeep</P>

[SavinDwa]

<P>I have a couple of questions:</P> <P>1) Who knows FOR A FACT that FoH has had their whole guild copied to the test server.  I'm not talking about urban legend, I mean some that really knows.</P> <P>This would means that all of the characters in the FoH guild on permafrost should also be on test and all in a guild of the same name.</P> <P>2) Assuming its true, and I have no way to know one way or the other, then how do we know that SOE has not applied some penalties to them or has some special agreements about how they will use the knowledge on permafrost?  Essentially the original posters were implying that FoH were cheating and SOE was helping them.  But where are the facts to back this up?</P> <P>All these threads going into detailed discussions about the ramificatiosn of something that essentially is based on someone who claims to have hacked a FoH internal site and read some stuff there.</P> <P>3) Assuming we want high end stuff tested we need a group of people with a track record for being thorough, willing to document stuff, willing to push the envelope and willing to put up with a lot of problems.  To test high end raid stuff you basically need a well integrated team -- i.e. a guild.</P> <P>4) Assuming that FoH is indeed testing stuff on test with a copy of their characters made some time ago .. or perhaps made once a week for all I know isn't there some disadvantages as well?  They get advanced knowledge some new quests and stuff, however, to gain this advanatge their characters are playing less on the live server and losing ground in other areas unless they have already completed all the  content there is to complete and so have the other main guilds on their server. Hmm...</P> <P>There really has to be better things to discuss?  I why the stupid random number generator is still broken 6 months after release despite a huge number bugs reports and detailed posts.</P> <P>So .. can any one definatelively tell us that they have ssen all the same FoH characters on both test and permafrost?  Its pretty easy to do a /who all search?</P>

[Eneg]

Well of course it's favoritism. But these two guilds have a long history with eq and it's developers, and I'm assuming the developers feel they can trust FoH to report exploitable bugs and not leak information in the process. <div></div>

[AfflictedOne]

<P>Well being from Perma, I guess I'd like to know what exactly is tested.  Is it just the fights or are the actual quests being used for testing also.  I mean the whole froglock thing is about to go up soon and I'd really like to know if there's any reason to even attempt the quest or has FoH already been though it?  Quite frankly I've been looking forward to this going into the game just to give FoH a run for their money  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, but if they've already tested the quest before it goes live then there's no point in bothering.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Guess I'm saying that I'm glad that things are being tested and I think FoH is a good guild to do this but I'd like to know just how far this testing goes, because if it goes to in depth then it just removes all friendly competition from the Permafrost server.</P>

[Eneg]

<span><blockquote><hr>SavinDwarf wrote: <p>So .. can any one definatelively tell us that they have ssen all the same FoH characters on both test and permafrost?  Its pretty easy to do a /who all search?</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Given the fact that the Producer of EQ2 posted directly saying that they copied FoH characters, I think we can rule out urban legend.. not that it was ever a secret anyway.</span><div></div>

[Noah]

<P>You know, I dont even know if the "Live Events" go on the test servers before they hit the live servers.  The Plague for example, I don't think it was on test...  but I could be wrong.   Once again, we are there to test "specific" things when asked...  not every little change made.   </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[SavinDwa]

I can confirm that, from tradeskill perspective, a lot of final changes go straight to live without ever hitting test.  For instance, they made a last minute change to the cost calculation and it went into the live patch before being updated to test.

[MadisonPark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <P>You know, I dont even know if the "Live Events" go on the test servers before they hit the live servers.  The Plague for example, I don't think it was on test...  but I could be wrong.   Once again, we are there to test "specific" things when asked...  not every little change made.  </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As they were copied to Test to test raid specific encounters, I doubt they tested anything other than the raid zone for The Crypt of T'Haen. From the notoriety and reputation  of FoH anyway, I imagine they'd have gotten server first even without the introduction through testing.</DIV>

[Tag]

<P>Well this shows clear favoritism by SOE towards one guild. We should all have the chance to test this stuff with our live characters.</P> <P>Anyone taking their live character to the test server will certainly be able to finish the new content before everyone else when the new contents released.</P>

[cadrach]

<P>Wow they have locked almost every thread on this subject guess this one is next?  Or has it been overlooked.  The mods think this is petty and that is their opinion but some of us believe giving certain guild an advantage over ALL others cheapens the game the same way other exploiters do.  </P> <P>My proposal is to alternate who gets picked and make it so not a single guild is being chosen.  Pick a new guild with everthing you need tested.  Ok you may not know the players personally but common this is ridiculous.  If you want them on test then move them their do not let them have the same characters on another server that is just wrong.</P>

[Kenazeer]

<P>I guess this thread survives only by its subject message. The other thread was locked, and justifiably so as it violated the forum rules. However I got a chuckle out of this.....</P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#000000></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>If you've further problems with us, I suggest you send a Dev a PM. </SPAN></P><SPAN> <DIV>____________________<BR><B>Faarwolf</B><BR><BR></SPAN></DIV> <P>Which equals....S_T_F_U we dont want to hear about this stuff anymore. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kenazeer on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:41 PM</span>

[GryffinMM]

<P>To the FoH folks, you have my apologies, I regret ever refering to you folks.  I never intended to fuel any more angst over silly things.</P> <P>To the boards in general, you have my apologies, I regret how I started this thread.  If I'd done it better, it might have been a better discussion.</P> <P>To all, my interest is a general question about access to information before the general population and I don't even know that it isn't fair that the people who help make this game better shouldn't get a benefit from that effort.  I *LIKE* playing fun games.</P> <P>I've been annoyed at bot groups dominating highest kill statistics, etc.  I think real people should be recognized for their efforts.  In this case, real people are being recognized for their efforts.</P> <P>It also sounds like any head start by some of the limited, specific, focused testing that is going on by major guilds or certain individuals has little impact on (all-) server firsts.</P> <P> </P> <P>Peace.  Out.</P> <P>Aadune of High Keep</P>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <P>You know, I dont even know if the "Live Events" go on the test servers before they hit the live servers.  The Plague for example, I don't think it was on test...  but I could be wrong.   Once again, we are there to test "specific" things when asked...  not every little change made.  <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The plague was most definitely on Test. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Once in a while it pops up again when someone logs on a disused toon.  I have a level 9 Priest somewhere with the plague still and I'm afraid to log her in because I don't want to get that mess started again after a month, hehe.  I don't know if the Test server ever finished the cure or if the whole thing went away, though.  I had to go away for a week at the height of it so I never found out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But anyway, yes, Live Events do show up on Test... without very much warning at times. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[HanktheDwarf]

So as far as I know, FoH only tested the final raid zone.  Nothing else.  They weren't around very long, and I'd imagine it'd take a little while to get all the people through the adventure.  In any case, there are a bunch of people on the verge of 50-dom on test, and more 'raids' are going on (or at least epic killing).  Maybe they will still copy FoH for later packs, who knows. <div></div>

[ganjookie]

I don't play on Test server, but I appreciate all of the work you that are on Test do.  I do however play on Permafrost.  I am happy to hear that an experiance highend raiding guild is on Test now, to help with any future problems.  Am I upset that FoH <i>might </i>use some of thier TestServer knowledge to gain an advantage on the live servers.  No. From what I know of FoH ( which is little), is that they are a high profile, highend raid guild, that is full of hardcore gamers.  Sure they had, and probably WILL have  alot of 1st item discoveries in game, that comes with the territory of being a hardcore highend raid guild..... What I would like to see though, is for SOE to switch up the guilds they invite in to certain tests, which would allow  more guilds to become involved with the game  development process.   It would also alleviate some of FoH from being the scapegoat in this type of situation.  It could be done on a month to month basis or a particular guild or two can be brought in to test a particualr part of the game, and then have thier characters from test removed.  Why is this subject so into the now?  Well I guess it is because it is the most important topic of the week for most players.  There will be whiners and complainers and flamers on <b>every</b> subject ( realtime hair growth forums " My hair isn't as uber as this guys hair [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]!?!?!")  and for them I have no advice as, if I did give advice, they would whine/complain/flame about it.  For those that don't feel compelled to whine/complain/flame ( not  in that particular order) on every subject, understand that what SOE does is generally in the best interest of the game, AT THAT TIME.  They can and will change parts of the game to make it enjoyable to a large portion of the public.  SOE may even change a part or two to improve the gameplay and enjoyment of a small fraction of the players.  Good for them, that means they do care about us, even if it is just for thier wallets ( hey its an American company, thats what us Americans do best,  make money..and eat.) Any how I am rambling now and will jump off my soapbox P.S.  any FoH members care to divulge Froglok secrets, can email me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[BloodSmo]

<DIV>Why have EQ2Players if your going to screw the results?  I'm no longer paying for it soley because of this, what a joke.</DIV>

[Moorgard]

<DIV>We have copied several guilds and a number of players over to the Test server for purposes of raid testing. It was done in EQ, and it is something we will continue to practice. It's simply part of the testing process, and every MMO has done it and will keep on doing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, but we're not going to implement some kind of round-robin system where we take volunteers for testing in the name of fairness. We will copy over guilds that we know can do the testing we need done. Period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We don't use one guild for everything. There are multiple folks we work with, but it simply isn't something we publicize.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is that we need people from outside our dev and QA teams to test raids, because customers will always think outside the box and come up with unique ways to break our content that those of us who are close to it might miss. We make use of guilds who actually tell us what is broken and how they broke it; we don't do this to give random guilds a preview of loot they can farm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no collusion or exclusive deal at work here. We are constantly on the lookout for people we think might be able to help us test stuff, and when we see likely candidates, we contact them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you think it's unfair that someone gets an early look at new content, well, sorry, but there's no better way to get valid testing data. It would defeat the purpose entirely to simulate new content and then change it before it goes live simply to give an impression of fairness. No matter how we did this, some people would complain. It's just something those individuals will have to learn to deal with, because it's in the best interests of the game that we do it.</DIV>

[Ci]

This thread is going nowhere

[IsleWit]

I only have 1 things to say about this whole issue: --If SoE can COPY characters (of their choosing) to test. Why not allow everyone else too? I know that i would do it in a heart beat to test any upcoming ranger changes. <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IsleWitch wrote:<BR>I only have 1 things to say about this whole issue:<BR><BR>--If SoE can COPY characters (of their choosing) to test. Why not allow everyone else too? I know that i would do it in a heart beat to test any upcoming ranger changes.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Moorgard gave you the answer, and so did Scott.</P> <P>Its simple:</P> <P>They trust FoH and AL and certain other guilds due to a long "working" relationship with them; they know they can be trusted to not only find exploits but report them, and they know that their members will be on enough to test whatever they need tested thoroughly.</P> <P>I don't see why its such a big deal.</P> <P>Whatever makes the game better, I'm all for it; and this certainly makes the game better.</P> <P>Just think: I'm the sexiest monk of all time and I didn't get copied to test <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  You can't win them all <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>But like many others have said, FoH would get server and gamewide firsts anyway, because they are good at what they do.<BR></P>

[ganjookie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <div>We have copied several guilds and a number of players over to the Test server for purposes of raid testing. It was done in EQ, and it is something we will continue to practice. It's simply part of the testing process, and every MMO has done it and will keep on doing it.</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ffff33">Sorry, but we're not going to implement some kind of round-robin system where we take volunteers for testing in the name of fairness. We will copy over guilds that we know can do the testing we need done. Period.</font></div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#ffff00">We don't use one guild for everything. There are multiple folks we work with, but it simply isn't something we publicize.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>The bottom line is that we need people from outside our dev and QA teams to test raids, because customers will always think outside the box and come up with unique ways to break our content that those of us who are close to it might miss. We make use of guilds who actually tell us what is broken and how they broke it; we don't do this to give random guilds a preview of loot they can farm.</div> <div> </div> <div>There is no collusion or exclusive deal at work here. We are constantly on the lookout for people we think might be able to help us test stuff, and when we see likely candidates, we contact them.</div> <div> </div> <div>If you think it's unfair that someone gets an early look at new content, well, sorry, but there's no better way to get valid testing data. It would defeat the purpose entirely to simulate new content and then change it before it goes live simply to give an impression of fairness. No matter how we did this, some people would complain. It's just something those individuals will have to learn to deal with, because it's in the best interests of the game that we do it.</div><hr></blockquote>Thanks for reading through MG!  I appreciate you letting us know.  I wouldn't expect a round robin type system,  but it is nice to know you don't just grab from one place for your testers.  I wasn't nor am I still concerned about them getting a sneak peek at what is to come, because frankly, it doesnt affect my ingame experiance.  Thanks again MG!</span><div></div>

[sundrop]

<DIV> <DIV>Why have EQ2Players if your going to screw the results?  I'm no longer paying for it soley because of this, what a joke.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is logical aggreement, luckly i dont play on this server but who is to say this "trusted" guild does not let there fellow buddys in on the secrets who do reside on my guild. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will have to say, i will stop paying for those features knowing there is a change there incorrect or smugged. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[IveDefected]

<DIV>"I wasn't nor am I still concerned about them getting a sneak peek at what is to come, because frankly, it doesnt affect my ingame experiance."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>amen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Anjuu]

My guild in Everquest 1 was copied over to help beta test an expansion, and from my experience I don't think it gives any special advantages. We were summoned to a zone by a GM, given special armor and every alt advance ability. We then tested a specific raid encounter, and after each attempt, the encounter was changed to see what they could do to make it harder. It didn't give us any knowlege of how the access quests worked, the progression of the expansion, or any of the other fights involved in the expansion. Even after several versions of that fight, there was no way to tell exactly what it would be like when it went live.

[BlackHa]

 While they are at it...will they please clue in FOH on how to stop this plague?  Go ahead and give em' a first for this one as well.   <DIV>I could care less who gets credit for it. I'm just tired of looking at green characters.</DIV>

[Marlow]

<DIV>Bah everyone knows this always has and always will happen.  Some people are the type to be sore unless they themselves or their whole guild is copied over.  Its nice to know someone and help them test.  But honestly, guys, quit whining.  I'm just glad that FoH will get the bugs worked out before I hit the content.</DIV>

[IsleWit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote: <p>They trust FoH and AL and certain other guilds due to a long "working" relationship with them; they know they can be trusted to not only find exploits but report them, and they know that their members will be on enough to test whatever they need tested thoroughly.</p> <p>I don't see why its such a big deal.</p> <p>Whatever makes the game better, I'm all for it; and this certainly makes the game better.</p> <p>Just think: I'm the sexiest monk of all time and I didn't get copied to test <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  You can't win them all <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>But like many others have said, FoH would get server and gamewide firsts anyway, because they are good at what they do.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I think you didnt get what i was trying to say. <b>There is a clear lack of participation in the test server.</b> Why? because people are require to start new toons there. Solution: Allow people to copy their characters over. So if its already been done to one guild, why not allow other people to also do the same so more people can vent the changes before they go live.</span><div></div>

[IsleWit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Marlow wrote:<div>But honestly, guys, quit whining.  I'm just glad that FoH will get the bugs worked out before I hit the content.</div><hr></blockquote>This is where i disagree. I appreciate the efforts that FoH are putting to make my gaming experience as trouble free as possible. BUT, many bugs HAVE NOT been caught before hitting live. Thats a fact. All im asking is that individuals be allowed to also copied over so there are more players testing future changes before going live. Are you and other seriously saying this is a bad thing? </span><div></div>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Enegar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fundin wrote:<BR> <DIV>I would ask myself this - if FoH did not have test server access, would they still be getting a lot of "firsts"? I have a feeling, if they are a dedicated as they were in EQ1, <STRONG>the answer would be yes</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><STRONG>The answer is probably yes</STRONG>, either them or AL (who also had character copies). Now that everyone is bouncing off the level cap, things are more competitive, but throughout the last several months FoH was getting plenty of firsts w/o the test server.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I got to agree with this ... FoH has always had a reputation for doing their best to bust EQ 1 & 2's hardcore raid targets.  </P> <P>I don't think there are many from EQ1 that doesn't know or at least know of FoH and/or Furor ... </P> <P>Hate em, Love em or just Live with em ... They have always aimed for being Top Dog and what they have done in one way or another has shaped EQ1 and continues to shape EQ2.   And, really I don't understand the surprise on this.  I'm reasonably sure all the leaders, officers and Vets in my guild already knew ... Heck, even I knew and I'm the most oblivious person when it comes to politics .. :smileytongue:</P>

[Marlow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IsleWitch wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marlow wrote:<BR> <DIV>But honestly, guys, quit whining.  I'm just glad that FoH will get the bugs worked out before I hit the content.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is where i disagree. I appreciate the efforts that FoH are putting to make my gaming experience as trouble free as possible. BUT, many bugs HAVE NOT been caught before hitting live. Thats a fact. All im asking is that individuals be allowed to also copied over so there are more players testing future changes before going live. Are you and other seriously saying this is a bad thing? <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you could just give me the name of an MMO that hit shelves bug free...

[Uba]

<DIV>Before this thread gets locked down, I'd just like to take the opportunity to thank Fires of Heaven, and whatever other guilds are involved in the testing of this game. I'm sure if anyone can find a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] in the armor, it's you guys. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rather than complain about the fact that some guilds are getting onto test server to spend THEIR PERSONAL TIME testing this game, we should be thankful that SoE has real game players giving upcoming patches a run through.</DIV>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IsleWitch wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marlow wrote:<BR> <DIV>But honestly, guys, quit whining.  I'm just glad that FoH will get the bugs worked out before I hit the content.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is where i disagree. I appreciate the efforts that FoH are putting to make my gaming experience as trouble free as possible. BUT, many bugs HAVE NOT been caught before hitting live. Thats a fact. All im asking is that individuals be allowed to also copied over so there are more players testing future changes before going live. Are you and other seriously saying this is a bad thing? <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What I *wish* they would do is instead of mass /copycharacter ... would be to copy entire servers and put THAT on a round-robin list.   </P> <UL> <LI>(1) Main Test Server</LI> <LI>(1) Copied Live Server</LI></UL> <DIV>This would "help" catch alot of the bugs that go into live before going there .. Test Server doesn't have the population and may or may not ever really have a very large population but if they occassionally put out a "Test_[servername]" that would allow a that whole server to /bug & /feedback changes that they could "experience" without fear of loss but a bit of time and would allow for a greater range of feedback since it would in effect be a live server population doing what they would do normally.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if they only did the Copy Server once a month / Different Server each time.  They would still catch enough bugs and issues to justify the extra expense.   </DIV>

[IsleWit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Marlow wrote: <blockquote> <hr> IsleWitch wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Marlow wrote: <div>But honestly, guys, quit whining.  I'm just glad that FoH will get the bugs worked out before I hit the content.</div> <hr> </blockquote>This is where i disagree. I appreciate the efforts that FoH are putting to make my gaming experience as trouble free as possible. BUT, many bugs HAVE NOT been caught before hitting live. Thats a fact. All im asking is that individuals be allowed to also copied over so there are more players testing future changes before going live. Are you and other seriously saying this is a bad thing? </span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>If you could just give me the name of an MMO that hit shelves bug free... <div></div><hr></blockquote>:boggle: Im suggesting a way to get more people to play on test, and you come up with this as your reply? More people playing test means there is a greater chance of more bugs being caught. Is this a hard concept to grasp?</span><div></div>

[Balerius]

<P>1.  I don't even play on Permafrost or Test servers and have known FoH was testing content.  Does it bother me?  Heck no.  It's clear that SoE needs high-end guild help to test their high-end content.  Perhaps one day Players on the Test server can do this.  Perhaps not.</P> <P>2.  More than any recent subject on the Forums that I can remember, SoE Devs and Moorgard are taking a hard line on this matter and bluntly saying that the practice was useful and will continue as necessary.  Good for them.  I wish they would show a bit more backbone on some other matters.</P> <P>3. Do I feel slighted that my guild wasn't one of the select to test stuff?  Not really, though I think we could do it too.  But it's a testing process.  Fair doesn't enter into the equation.</P> <P>4.  Having said that, I think that perhaps SoE would do better if they <STRONG><EM>did</EM></STRONG> use more than one guild to test.  Not for fairness.  But to get a better test.  One guild testing may not find every way the encounter may be broken.  Or every way the encounter could be exploited.  If by using only FoH (or AL) SoE was accomplishing its goals of properly tuning/debuggig/exploit-proofing high end encounters, the we wouldn't see such things as 6 zillion Patriarchs in the CL instance; 6 zillion tempests at Kra'thuk; one-group kills of the Angler <<sniffle...I miss the big cuddly guy...sniffle>>; broken adds at Vision of Vox; kitable Tremblor in the Zek instance; etc.; etc, etc.</P> <P>The point being..while I think it's great in concept that SoE is using real guilds to test encounters..in practice you'd have to say that the testing methodology has not been very successful...to say the least.  Either SoE has to use the guilds they've selected to test in a better/more robust testing process, or they have to invite a couple of more guilds to test and bring a different mind-set to each encounter than FoH and AL are doing.</P>

[Opa]

<span><font color="#ffff00">For the record, I resent the "hardball" routine coming from both the mod's and dev's on this issue. There are plenty of people on this thread presenting valid, moderate, and well-thought concerns about this issue. "Period." There are questions as to whether this is a fair way to treat your player base. There are questions as to whether the SoE team is showing favoritism to guilds they were in back in EQLive, or otherwise affiliated with. There are questions as to desert, and why certain guild were chosen over others. I respect FoH, and I respect the devs. I resent being talked to in tones that end with "period." Period. Fairness is an issue. And end every paragraph with "period" won't solve it. Tell us why you choose the guild you chose, either by reputation, personal friendship, or whatever factors went into it. Otherwise, be ready to be called all sorts of nepotists, and know that people are right in saying so. </font></span><div></div>

[HanktheDwarf]

<span><blockquote><hr>IsleWitch wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote: <p>They trust FoH and AL and certain other guilds due to a long "working" relationship with them; they know they can be trusted to not only find exploits but report them, and they know that their members will be on enough to test whatever they need tested thoroughly.</p> <p>I don't see why its such a big deal.</p> <p>Whatever makes the game better, I'm all for it; and this certainly makes the game better.</p> <p>Just think: I'm the sexiest monk of all time and I didn't get copied to test <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  You can't win them all <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>But like many others have said, FoH would get server and gamewide firsts anyway, because they are good at what they do.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I think you didnt get what i was trying to say. <b>There is a clear lack of participation in the test server.</b> Why? because people are require to start new toons there. Solution: Allow people to copy their characters over. So if its already been done to one guild, why not allow other people to also do the same so more people can vent the changes before they go live.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>People didn't have to start over.  SOE offered a /movelog for every server.  Every single person had a chance to have their characters moved with everything single copper intact.  And still, very few people took them up on this offer.</span><div></div>

[IsleWit]

<span><blockquote><hr>HanktheDwarf wrote:<span>People didn't have to start over.  SOE offered a /movelog for every server.  Every single person had a chance to have their characters moved with everything single copper intact.  And still, very few people took them up on this offer.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Moving and copying are 2 different things. Ill copy, but will never move to test. I think thats why so few took up that offer.</span><div></div>

[Gorhauth]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>BlackHair wrote: While they are at it...will they please clue in FOH on how to stop this plague?  Go ahead and give em' a first for this one as well.   <div>I could care less who gets credit for it. I'm just tired of looking at green characters.</div><hr></blockquote>They already cured it, over a week ago. <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=202&message.id=5396" target="_blank">Link is here</a> </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorhauth on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:50 PM</span>

[Opa]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gorhauth wrote:<div></div><div></div><span>They already cured it, over a week ago. <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=202&message.id=5396" target="_blank">Link is here</a> </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorhauth on <span class="date_text">05-10-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:50 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">And, if you were wondering, yes, they did get the server discovery. And an artifact item to boot.</font></span><div></div>

[Gorhauth]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Opaki wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Gorhauth wrote:<div></div><div></div><span>They already cured it, over a week ago. <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=202&message.id=5396" target="_blank">Link is here</a> </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorhauth on <span class="date_text">05-10-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:50 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00">And, if you were wondering, yes, they did get the server discovery. And an artifact item to boot.</font></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>And a title <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[SeedsOfChan]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>IsleWitch wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Marlow wrote:<blockquote><hr>IsleWitch wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Marlow wrote:<div>But honestly, guys, quit whining.  I'm just glad that FoH will get the bugs worked out before I hit the content.</div><hr></blockquote>This is where i disagree. I appreciate the efforts that FoH are putting to make my gaming experience as trouble free as possible. BUT, many bugs HAVE NOT been caught before hitting live. Thats a fact. All im asking is that individuals be allowed to also copied over so there are more players testing future changes before going live. Are you and other seriously saying this is a bad thing?</span><hr></blockquote>If you could just give me the name of an MMO that hit shelves bug free...<hr></blockquote>:boggle: Im suggesting a way to get more people to play on test, and you come up with this as your reply? More people playing test means there is a greater chance of more bugs being caught. Is this a hard concept to grasp?</span><hr></blockquote></span><p></p><p><span>The problem is, with the exception of population related bugs, throwing more people at a problem tends to get common errors repeated MUCH more often; there is no guarantee that any new bugs will be identified. That is the potential problem with indiscriminate adding of testers, overwhelming the devs with the same old bug reports, then they might miss one that's new, but similar, to an old one. Additionally, there will be plenty of people who only want to experience the new content/get insider info; they contribute nothing and consume resources. Plus the people who are so clueless that they come to a test server and expect everything to work BETTER than live, and whine and complain all the time w/o giving useful bug reports. (I don't mean to indicate anyone posting here might behave like that, I'm just saying what I've seen in the past.) </span></p><p>Message Edited by SeedsOfChange on <span class="date_text">05-10-2005</span><span class="time_text">09:06 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by SeedsOfChange on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:07 PM</span>

[Ricassari]

<span><blockquote><hr>Marlow wrote:<div>Bah everyone knows this always has and always will happen.  Some people are the type to be sore unless they themselves or their whole guild is copied over.  Its nice to know someone and help them test.  But honestly, guys, quit whining.  I'm just glad that FoH will get the bugs worked out before I hit the content.</div><hr></blockquote> Have you ever seen an expansion or major patch hitting the live servers without most severe bugs? Real testing would be nice, but in fact it looks like they just find out the exploits, and use them when they hit the live servers, and report them afterwards.</span><div></div>

[Yokima]

<DIV>With such influence on "discovery firsts" from EQ2Players.com, why give anyone an advantage? While SOE "improves" player classes in this game, they also nerf. So nothing comes without a penalty. Why aren't guilds who are being asked to test content being somewhat penalized from recieving certain Discovery Firsts?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no problem with guild's assisting SOE with uncovering bugs in their content, but I do have a problem with SOE taking favor to any one particular guild, and again with mentioning them on their website as though the victory at hand was achieved on their own, without the aid of Devs, which in fact is not the truth and that the Devs do in fact assist mentioned guilds (<STRONG>on their website</STRONG>) achieve mentioned achievements.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: This is in response to a discussion I had with a guild mate in /gu. This reply isn't about the technical aspect's of SOE's testing procedures, just in response to their handlnig of un-published, still-in-development content and how it affects a (single; one of many) "major aspect" of this game's fun-factors, eq2players.com</DIV><p>Message Edited by Yokimato on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 PM</span>

[TunaBoo]

No, I don't believe FoH or AL are any more likely to report exploits as the rest of us. Unless I am mistaken, both abused the lack of a lockout timer on prismatic DFC and vault of flames and MG group instance to get themselves 100s of rubys. Sure sounds like a winner to trust bug reporting to me. <div></div>

[kaoriknigh]

Don't forget farming the zek instance with no lockout timer for a few weeks!

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KerowynnKaotic wrote:<BR> <P>What I *wish* they would do is instead of mass /copycharacter ... would be to copy entire servers and put THAT on a round-robin list.   </P> <UL> <LI>(1) Main Test Server</LI> <LI>(1) Copied Live Server</LI></UL> <DIV>This would "help" catch alot of the bugs that go into live before going there .. Test Server doesn't have the population and may or may not ever really have a very large population but if they occassionally put out a "Test_[servername]" that would allow a that whole server to /bug & /feedback changes that they could "experience" without fear of loss but a bit of time and would allow for a greater range of feedback since it would in effect be a live server population doing what they would do normally.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if they only did the Copy Server once a month / Different Server each time.  They would still catch enough bugs and issues to justify the extra expense.   <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>That is part of SWG's testing regimine.  I remember test_center_Bria during the jedi changes, among other things.<BR>

[Marlow]

<DIV>Why the hell would SOE ever want to mass copy a bunch of people who want to play on their home servers, and not play to test on...eh...well, test?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What sort of sense does that make?  Unless you're taking an entire guild to test raid content or several players to test solo content, and you KNOW from past experience that they WILL test and WILL do a good job, it doesn't make any sense at all.  What you're all suggesting is for SOE to give you a free pass to test things when you want to, just to get a feel, figure out the good farming spots, how to strat a mob etc, and then go back to your home server/guild and use that....and isn't that exactly what people are crying about here?  That FOH or other guilds/players are getting a "free look" at content so that the 'racers' on those guilds' home servers are at a disadvantage to the copied guilds?  I mean which do you want?  How about no copies so the high end content gets tested whenever someone gets to it on release?  Why should SOE get a whole bunch of part time testers when they can get a few full time testers, and some seasonal testers that REALLY want to make their work count?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh I understand what you're saying, Iustus, I just don't think its a good idea.  My point is, you put 25000 part time testers on that server, and you've got the law of diminishing returns before testing even begins...and then when you do decide to test, just to make sure your new nuke damage is up to your standards, SOE is supposed to cherish your thoughts and opinions?  Because you did them a favor by logging on this month?  Sorry, I don't buy it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: putting on flamesuit...</DIV><p>Message Edited by Marlow on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 PM</span>

[Syndic]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <div>We have copied several guilds and a number of players over to the Test server for purposes of raid testing. It was done in EQ, and it is something we will continue to practice. It's simply part of the testing process, and every MMO has done it and will keep on doing it.</div> <div> </div> <div>Sorry, but we're not going to implement some kind of round-robin system where we take volunteers for testing in the name of fairness. We will copy over guilds that we know can do the testing we need done. Period.</div> <div> </div> <div>We don't use one guild for everything. There are multiple folks we work with, but it simply isn't something we publicize.</div> <div> </div> <div>The bottom line is that we need people from outside our dev and QA teams to test raids, because customers will always think outside the box and come up with unique ways to break our content that those of us who are close to it might miss. We make use of guilds who actually tell us what is broken and how they broke it; we don't do this to give random guilds a preview of loot they can farm.</div> <div> </div> <div>There is no collusion or exclusive deal at work here. We are constantly on the lookout for people we think might be able to help us test stuff, and when we see likely candidates, we contact them.</div> <div> </div> <div>If you think it's unfair that someone gets an early look at new content, well, sorry, but there's no better way to get valid testing data. It would defeat the purpose entirely to simulate new content and then change it before it goes live simply to give an impression of fairness. No matter how we did this, some people would complain. It's just something those individuals will have to learn to deal with, because it's in the best interests of the game that we do it.</div><hr></blockquote>I believe the question was:  Do players who get copied over to test get accreddited on eq2players as being server first/game first finders for items, titles related to these events? The original post was not critising the method, they just wanted to know whether the server/game firsts were a reward for this testing.</span><div></div>

[Ibis]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Actually, we didnt farm the zek instance. kicking ourselves over that, but we didnt even defeat it until it was fixed.  RL hit a lot of members and we had poor attendance yada yada.  Doesn't matter, shadowknights among others can solo the x4 for the guaranteed metal chest. We didn't farm the group instance of MG, though some guildies had friends on grobb who informed us of the exploit.  Didn't really care to.  We have interdimensional guards which are a similar tower that gains shield factor as you level past 50. We didn't farm the DFC instance for deception either.  A few members realized it and made some headway there but I doubt anything more than like 3 "farms", the rest of us didn't care.  Small potatoes. I am the leader of the vault of flames exploit in FoH.  3 other members participated with me.  But all 4 of us were not members of FoH when we did it, and have since been recruited.  I got my hat from there, the pic is in the guardian forum.  I did the zone like 45+ times in 3 days and then it was fixed.  So actually, FoH didn't exploit VoF, but I sure as hell did. We don't need to exploit lockout timers to be the best.  Its curious that some would assume we do.  Really quite revealing. I'm more upset about people duoing Borxx and single grouping Vox.  We worked hard to be where we're at and now our efforts are meaningless because you can roll over contested epics without a thought.  Thats all b/c piece of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] players and piece of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] guilds whined that their abilities were broken.  Broken or not its all that caused them to be challenging.  God where is the vision when you need it, someone needs to put their foot down and say contested mobs are meant to be hard.  I would sleep easy at night if FoH went after a mob and wiped for 6 hours solid.  It wouldn't be fun, but it would mean that the eventual victory would be far far more braggable.  We all know that beating rough stuff is just to extend our e-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  It doesn't do much for you when epics aren't in-fact rough. <div></div><p><span class="time_text">Server firsts? You kidding me?  The zerg noobs on our server are clubbing every contested and finding all the improved loot hours before half our guild logs on.  I assure you 1) the only thing we tested was bloodlines and 2) no one else on our server would have gotten the server first discoveries there before us - with or without us testing it.  And we were hard at work reporting issues with the pack, some of which were not in-fact fixed by time live came.  It was very disappointing that the biggest flaw that affects us was still present, that we could not zone into the pack as a raid.  It cost us the game and server first on the raid and the acclaim from it.  Also ardent legion of mistmoore or w/e, got a developer to teleport them around to finish the prismatic quest first, ON LIVE SERVERS and got game and server firsts on those.  Then, if that wasn't enough, they got mentioned as the firsts to finish prismatic on the main website.  Go find where FoH's accomplishments are mentioned on the website.  Go find just one. </span></p> <p><span class="time_text">Y'all are so ignorant and stupid. </span></p> <p><span class="time_text">P.S. I am FOR everyone having the oppurtunity to test on the test server and against the current way test is handled.  Strange where you find your allies no?  But I do think it would take a long time to learn how to operate that effectively without damaging the live server playing experience for everyone.  Its similar to using a trainer to hack your character in diablo, being capable of experimenting and exploring without fear of consequences on the test server.  And that result must be avoided at all costs. </span></p><p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:28 AM</span>

[Obsi]

<DIV>The whole problem here is we are talking about a PURE PVE GAME.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>The only competition here is in achievement versus high end content </STRONG>(take it as quest or raid success, both are linked with discovery anyway).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> The fact is that if you pick SOME and SOME only of those top players then yes you are <STRONG>creating and strenghten</STRONG> imbalance and the " game competition " will be distorted. Giving the option only to some people to pre-discover stuff  just because you decide for xxx reasons ( that could be argued for years i guess) they "worth" more than average base player is not fair. Even worse when this preview has direct impact on the live server ( first discovery resulting in title, artefact and so ... even if u cant do the full stuff u will still start with some steps ahead of all other players)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Allowing people to come on test at will and play together would be first of all fair for everyone and not create such imbalance AND allow people from different horizons to meet and share their time working together to improve the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Obside</DIV>

[goboy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Have you ever seen an expansion or major patch hitting the live servers without most severe bugs? Real testing would be nice, but in fact it looks like they just find out the exploits, and use them when they hit the live servers, and report them afterwards. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Actually, most of the severe bugs are caught.  It is the less severe bugs that make it through.  Of course, most people don't play on test so they really don't see some of the more severe bugs - they just think that the ones they see are as bad as it could have been.  Saying that, yes bugs do get through.  Test would need a dedicated population around 1200 peeps to catch all of the bugs.  Why does copying not work - then who would test the day to day stuff.  Most people who want to be copied over only want to try things that would affect them - how many would go through the low level quests or grind through the crafting levels. </DIV>

[Unom]

The real problem is not how you test raiding content but that you listen too much to this loud minority of raid-freaks. These represent just a minor fraction of the players but get most the the attention and ressources. EQ suffers from this lack of balance. No matter how much you play and how skilled you are - EQ only gives you one choice: Raid or stay with second class characters and dont see much of the game content that you pay for.

[Unom]

<DIV>Aadune has pointed out a very simple and clearly stated matter of lack in the game fairness. Its good there are people like this who watch over the game and it is hard to understand that the producers of the game do not welcome this effort. Moongards reply is closer to rude then to being greatful for sure:</DIV> <DIV>"Shut up and take it as we want to do it ... "</DIV> <DIV>and next week there will be another producer letter asking for imput and communication about the game.</DIV>

[Ibreaka Ufa]

<DIV>By all means, sign me up for the copy.  I will await your email or tell in game.  I want to "test" the raid content also <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[IvIoritu]

<DIV>Oh, the drama.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What seems everyone is upset about is game wide firsts, and there being such a large advantage to guild who test in getting these game wide firsts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, ask yourself could you even kill these mobs given a month of testing the mob? You're all saying we have an unfair advantage to get the game wides based on a few hours of controlled testing once or twice a month maybe...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact of the matter is for the week or two they switched up the raid content dynamics about a month ago, you died and we lived.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We dont get serverwides because we test for a few hours, we get serverwides because we're simply a better raiding guild, we were not on test for the patch mentioned earlier, and we adapted to the changes, and were the only guild to drop all and ANY of the contested or instanced mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You get your guild organized and commited to raiding for several hours clearing crypt of thaen, and you too would have gotten a serverwide first. Also people fail to realize, as far as i understood it, a guild that wasnt on test actually got the game wide first for thaen. Anyways, the problem is people nag about others when they themselves didnt put forth the effort, or the prerequisiting efforts to obtain such things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyways, just my thoughts on the drama durring server down.</DIV><p>Message Edited by IvIorituri on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:19 AM</span>

[spyderopt]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>"We dont get serverwides because we test for a few hours, we get serverwides because we're simply a better raiding guild" Any advantage FoH has on permafrost without counting test server "testing", is dwindling. In fact, they've resorted to sending tells to other members in other guilds for recruiting due to lack of their people logging in (to be promptly laughed at), and their officers having to resort to scolding people who don't login while the other 1-2 raid guilds clean house daily on statics/instances (if they were so uber and they didnt care about this, then why yell at their own members for lack of not being able to form up for statics as effective anymore).  Currently there is not a single raid FoH can do that the 2-3 other raid guilds on the same server can't do or do better, maybe in EQ1 they dominated their server, but that is not the case in EQ2. Let them be, if they want to test fine, it's not like they have people logging in anymore to play anyways and it's not like they're more capable than anybody else on their server. Their only advantage really is "seeing/trying it first" not in "guild strength", there are about 2-3 raid guild on Permafrost (including FoH) of equal overall strength (not just 1-2 members in all fabled) whether they care to admit that or not. So once the new stuff goes live, there is still a chance they won't beat that encounter first if one of the other equally capable guilds get to that encounter first, they may just have a slower time working out the strategy but once the encounter is locked they can try different things, we're only talking maybe a "serverfirst" not a domination of the spawn simply out of ability. Lets keep it in perspective, the gaps in raid guilds close daily, they know it... we know it. Just a matter of fact opinion of the situation on Permafrost, any prior dominance on the eq2 server is shrinking, whereas likely people know of FoH from EQ1 where they likely more dominated their server and had more of a monopoly on spawns. You likely won't find many that would admit to it however. Don't get me wrong, they are a very good raid guild, but they are not the only game in town on the server so everybody has equal chance at ability of actually killing new encounters, just some get to test it first in some cases due to being on test. ...just food for thought, sure would have been nice to goto test to help, but I really don't see them having any ultra advantage either, maybe if they were on another server that would be the case. I say more power to FoH to going to test, atleast they have dedicated players who some have played EQ1 for years and have a good understanding of game dynamics, than a guild who gets copied and plays almost no end-game or plays extremely casual, they have a good understanding how an ecounter "should be" since they played those encounters for years in some cases. Look at the alternative, SOE asks nobody or can't figure out who a good raid guild is that has a long standing of playing their games. We end up with more new content, that goes live and broken. Personally I'd rather atleast one guild who has a clue be allowed to go there and test stuff so I don't have to deal with the frustration on live, if copying isnt an option/offered. There's enough broken stuff going live, atleast maybe the end game raids will be alittle more stable. As much as it's an "advantage" for knowing before things go live, it also should save frustration of broken/buggy encounters, and if they still go live broken/buggy either SOE didn't listen to whatever guilds got copied or those copied guilds didnt speak up, of which case would show the test server situation is either busted in terms of actually fixing things or working good and catching broken things, prior to raid guilds being there your guess is good as mine if they meant alot of this stuff to be that buggy.<p>Message Edited by spyderoptik on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[IvIoritu]

<P>a note about the whole server first for curing the plague, Archael didn't start the quest untill after it had been cured on a different server and the whole quest was posted.  He folllowed what was posted and 3 days later we cured it.  big deal whoohoo we got a server first and he got a title.  But guess what HE is the one who put in the time and effort that no one else on the server did and we are the one's who went and owned thaen not once but twice because of the wonderful timing of that server downage at 10pm when thaen was at 2%.   So all you people whining about us getting server firsts need to wake up and realize that we would and are going to get them wheather we are our testing the content or not.</P> <P> </P> <P>Mord</P> <P> </P>

[Flanq]

<DIV> <DIV>"is it really fair to allow those players who have special access to content to also get the rewards of the 1st time wins/discoveries after the content goes live?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the issue is players/Guilds are getting <FONT size=4>credit</FONT> for first time discovery of loot/kills because they have an advantage. Not that they get to experience patiitcular content first because they are test subjects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Karde Shar]

<P>We have playtesters?!</P>

[stoutbrewdrink]

<P>its stupid to say that FOH doesnt have an advantage when it comes to gamewide and server firsts. They touch, feel, see and everything about a mob before anyone else can. Even if the mob is changed they still have a huge idea on how a mob is taken down. If they want raid content tested let everyone be able to copy their characters to test then you will have true testing. And to teh person who said they would have gamewide firsts even if they didnt test it first is absolutely wrong. Competition from other high end raiding guilds is very high for gamewide firsts. there are several who would beat out FOH today. FOH in eq2 is nothing of what it used to be in eq1.</P> <P> </P> <P>its a moot point tho Devs will do w/e the hell they want to do.</P>

[Os]

<P>I don't get it.</P> <P>People are upset about a guild having to double their play time to play on both a test server AND live server just to keep up with folks who JUST play on the live servers?</P> <DIV>You guys realize fokls can't be in 2 places at once. If they are actively testing on TEST they can't be playing older content on LIVE at the exact same time. So either, different FoH people are playing on test, meaning I doubt they go take time away for test to REPEAT something they already conqured (how boring). Or, basically FoHers on Live who haven't tested the content in combination with a couple who have go and play on LIVE. Either way, they are splitting their focus, so what ever "advantage" they have is mitegated by the fact their numbers and organization is split.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, nothing, absoluting nothing is holding any guild back from starting characters on test, leveling them up, so they can "get quest secrets" for their live guild. If you really think its THAT huge of an advantage why don't all you complainers go try and split your guild number over 2 servers and see how easy it is to go back and get anything done on the live server. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hats off to FoH. Its not easy to have successful chapters on multiple servers or games, copied over or no. FoH was on  my home server in EQ1 (RIP veeshan), and whatever critisisms you may have of these folks, they know how to test stuff, break stuff and "get it done". Why else why has FOH been given guild invites for just about every Beta MMORPG out there? Why else was Furor bought off by the industry? (lol)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want to test, then go test. If you want to get leet seekrits, then go work for it, earn the respect of the dev team and get yourself a reputation worth trusting. Instead of complaining about whatever "reward" you see FoH getting for testing on test, instead of critisizing, how about making YOURSELF better so you can earn the same right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*shrug*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hear guildwars is a good game for inter-guild competition. Nothing in life is perfectly fair, if moving guilds like FoH makes a better gaming experience for MOST people, then a bit of sacrifice on the part of some is justified. Yay vulcans.</DIV>

[Texasguy24]

<DIV>I think it's cool that they do the testing... cause it's what they live for. What isn't cool is that SoE needs people like that to test stuff. Lifeless raiding obssessed people shaped the direction of EQ 1, and EQ 2 was not supposed to be like that. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I want to know is what direction EQ 2 is going. If this is just a portent of game addiction requirement to see the game (like EQ 1), then does anyone know of a game that actually sticks to its policy of casual gamers not being locked out of huge amounts of content? Vanguard, maybe?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shennr]

<DIV>We dont get serverwides because we test for a few hours, we get serverwides because we're simply a better raiding guild, we were not on test for the patch mentioned earlier, and we adapted to the changes, <STRONG>and were the only guild to drop all and ANY of the contested or instanced mobs.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmm, that wasn't the case with the Zek instance when everyone thought it was broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also the king Zalak instance when the patriarchs were first added in, there was an idle time before anyone could kill him and it was done but not by FoH first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that any server has contested mobs and multiple guilds that can take them out but FoH is losing to them also shows how often they are devoted to staying online. There are other guilds out there that have more play time and are devoted to getting contested mobs every time over other guilds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please stop speaking as if FoH is all powerful over other guilds. It just shows how much knowledge they have for others</DIV>

[Nacoa]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Tagga wrote:<p>Well this shows clear favoritism by SOE towards one guild. We should all have the chance to test this stuff with our live characters.</p><hr></blockquote>I found your post quite ironic, given your sig.<blockquote><p></p></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Bravnik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>We have copied several guilds and a number of players over to the Test server for purposes of raid testing. It was done in EQ, and it is something we will continue to practice. It's simply part of the testing process, and every MMO has done it and will keep on doing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, but we're not going to implement some kind of round-robin system where we take volunteers for testing in the name of fairness. We will copy over guilds that we know can do the testing we need done. Period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We don't use one guild for everything. There are multiple folks we work with, but it simply isn't something we publicize.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is that we need people from outside our dev and QA teams to test raids, because customers will always think outside the box and come up with unique ways to break our content that those of us who are close to it might miss. We make use of guilds who actually tell us what is broken and how they broke it; we don't do this to give random guilds a preview of loot they can farm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no collusion or exclusive deal at work here. We are constantly on the lookout for people we think might be able to help us test stuff, and when we see likely candidates, we contact them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you think it's unfair that someone gets an early look at new content, well, sorry, but there's no better way to get valid testing data. It would defeat the purpose entirely to simulate new content and then change it before it goes live simply to give an impression of fairness. No matter how we did this, some people would complain. It's just something those individuals will have to learn to deal with, because it's in the best interests of the game that we do it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is all fine and dandy...however, when you reward people for being first at something, you DON'T reward the testors. If you copy an entire guild over to test and allow them to complete the quest/encounter. As soon as they go live the guild will just walk in and complete the quest/encounter and get the title or reward and noted as a first  to complete it.</P> <P>This is the same as insider trading on the Stock Market. No differance. They have the advantage of getting to look at the content first, then to take that knowledge to live and WALK though the encounter.</P> <P>There is a better way to do this. Copy over some high level people to assist and NOT an entire RAIDING guild. Do you actually think they are helping just to be nice to SOE. Hell NO, they are helping in order to get an advantage and for you to sit there and say so sorry for you, shows very bad professionalism on your part.</P> <P>I'm sorry Moorgard, I have lost all respect for you. Why? Because I ASKED TO BE COPIED OVER SO I COULD HELP OUT AND HEARD NOTHING BACK. I voluteered my time to HELP. I sent you a personal PM asking to be copied over to help. I didn't ask to get an advantage. I asked to be copied over to help test Coercer stuff before it went live.</P> <P>So you can take your too bad if you don't like it attitude and shove it where even your protologist can't get to it. Cheers</P> <P> </P>

[Tag]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IvIorituri wrote:<BR> <P>a note about the whole server first for curing the plague, Archael didn't start the quest untill after it had been cured on a different server and the whole quest was posted.  He folllowed what was posted and 3 days later we cured it.  big deal whoohoo we got a server first and he got a title.  But guess what HE is the one who put in the time and effort that no one else on the server did and we are the one's who went and owned thaen not once but twice because of the wonderful timing of that server downage at 10pm when thaen was at 2%.   So all you people whining about us getting server firsts need to wake up and realize that we would and are going to get them wheather we are our testing the content or not.</P> <P> </P> <P>Mord</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Archael is a level 50. I thought the live event was limited to levels 20 - 30 at least that is what I've seen posted on these forums. Is this showing further favoritism? If not, why wasn't I offered the quest from a GM? I play at least 80 hours a week. I thought my level was too high to be offered the quest. I nor anyone I know was offered a chance to do this live event. I cry foul.<BR>

[Mig]

<blockquote><hr>Ibishi wrote: I am the leader of the vault of flames exploit in FoH.  3 other members participated with me.  But all 4 of us were not members of FoH when we did it, and have since been recruited.  I got my hat from there, the pic is in the guardian forum.  I did the zone like 45+ times in 3 days and then it was fixed.  So actually, FoH didn't exploit VoF, but I sure as hell did. <hr></blockquote>So explain to me why you weren't banned?

[ganjookie]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>KerowynnKaotic wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> IsleWitch wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Marlow wrote: <div>But honestly, guys, quit whining.  I'm just glad that FoH will get the bugs worked out before I hit the content.</div> <hr> </blockquote>This is where i disagree. I appreciate the efforts that FoH are putting to make my gaming experience as trouble free as possible. BUT, many bugs HAVE NOT been caught before hitting live. Thats a fact. All im asking is that individuals be allowed to also copied over so there are more players testing future changes before going live. Are you and other seriously saying this is a bad thing? </span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">What I *wish* they would do is instead of mass /copycharacter ... would be to copy entire servers and put THAT on a round-robin list.  </font> </p> <ul> <li>(1) Main Test Server</li> <li>(1) Copied Live Server</li></ul> <div>This would "help" catch alot of the bugs that go into live before going there .. Test Server doesn't have the population and may or may not ever really have a very large population but if they occassionally put out a "Test_[servername]" that would allow a that whole server to /bug & /feedback changes that they could "experience" without fear of loss but a bit of time and would allow for a greater range of feedback since it would in effect be a live server population doing what they would do normally.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Even if they only did the Copy Server once a month / Different Server each time.  They would still catch enough bugs and issues to justify the extra expense.   </div><hr></blockquote>I don't think that will work either.  MG stated that they use guilds and people to test, well on test, that they TRUST.  How will xfereing over an entire server of people they do NOT know, and then round robin'ing that, follow in line with MG's statement earlier on this topic?   It would give a bunch of players with NO testing experiance to either skew results or put thier own personal spin on the "bug".  I admit I was taking a bit of a leap when I suggested using differnt guilds, but MG gave us SOEs answer on this, and that is what will stick. <font size="1">[edit: froglocks are dead to me now]</font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by ganjookie on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:46 AM</span>

[ganjookie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Marlow wrote:<div></div> <div>Why the hell would SOE ever want to mass copy a bunch of people who want to play on their home servers, and not play to test on...eh...well, test?</div> <div> </div> <div>What sort of sense does that make?  Unless you're taking an entire guild to test raid content or several players to test solo content, and you KNOW from past experience that they WILL test and WILL do a good job, it doesn't make any sense at all.  <font color="#ffff00">What you're all suggesting is for SOE to give you a free pass to test things when you want to, just to get a feel, figure out the good farming spots, how to strat a mob etc, and then go back to your home server/guild and use that....and isn't that exactly what people are crying about here?</font>  That FOH or other guilds/players are getting a "free look" at content so that the 'racers' on those guilds' home servers are at a disadvantage to the copied guilds?  I mean which do you want? <font color="#ff9900"> How about no copies so the high end content gets tested whenever someone gets to it on release?  Why should SOE get a whole bunch of part time testers when they can get a few full time testers, and some seasonal testers that REALLY want to make their work count?</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Oh I understand what you're saying, Iustus, I just don't think its a good idea.  My point is, you put 25000 part time testers on that server, and you've got the law of diminishing returns before testing even begins...and then when you do decide to test, just to make sure your new nuke damage is up to your standards, <font color="#6666ff">SOE is supposed to cherish your thoughts and opinions</font>?  Because you did them a favor by logging on this month?  Sorry, I don't buy it.</div> <div> </div> <div>EDIT: putting on flamesuit...</div><p>Message Edited by Marlow on <span class="date_text">05-10-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:49 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I really don't think that is what anyone is stating or insinuating at all.  Some people are upset with the fact the SOE uses a  well known hardcore, highend raid guild, that already has alot of first discoveries.  I really wouldn't know who else to choose, but  FoH seems to be:        1. Dedicated to the game        2. Well knowledgeable about the game AND testing procedures        3. Willing to help SOE out and smash bugs before it comes to the live servers        4. Trustworthy enough to the devs to be copied over to test. Thats all I could look for in someone wanting to test MY game out.  FoH will probably get  the first look at content anyhow, as they are well organized and hardcore players... As for no testing the highend content until someone reaches it, seems asinine to me.  When the game was first released and there was little or no testing on highend content, there where/are numerous complaints about loot tables, quests not updating etc tec.  Why go through that again, when SOE has willing and able players who know thier [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and want to help make the game the best it can be.  Even if FoH and the other guilds helping on test get a special title, <b>whoppideedoo</b> they have a title.  SOE doesnt need to hire 25k people to test the game, yet again, IMHO, asinine.  Our subscription rates would go up( maybe), but definatley adventure packs. I would also rather SOE not cherish me in such a way, I just want to pay my monthly fee, group up with some friends, go on a dungeon crawl, kill a dragon, and get some phat lewt.  I do not need SPE catering to every whim and fancy.  SOE is here to make money, which is good cause I want to give them money to play. OK time for me to clock back into work, enjoy your day!</span><div></div>

[Shennr]

<DIV>Thats all I could look for in someone wanting to test MY game out. <STRONG> FoH will probably get  the first look at content anyhow</STRONG>, as they are well organized and hardcore players...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I beg to differ on this statement. Who says they will be the first to look at this content anyhow on live servers? I know many guilds on Permafrost that are probably hardcore players too not to mention all the other servers and guilds that have hardcore players. You are in the mind set that FoH is the best when numerous guilds can take out any mob out there right now. Guilds have different playing times and not to mention there are guilds that are more hardcore then FoH, the ones that can set up a raid at anytime of the day as soon as a mob pops and kill instead of waiting for primetime.</DIV>

[Redknigh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you think it's unfair that someone gets an early look at new content, well, sorry, but there's no better way to get valid testing data. It would defeat the purpose entirely to simulate new content and then change it before it goes live simply to give an impression of fairness. No matter how we did this, some people would complain. It's just something those individuals will have to learn to deal with, because it's in the best interests of the game that we do it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sure there is. LEAVE them on the test servers!</DIV>

[spyderopt]

<div></div><div><font color="#ffff00">"Thats all</font><font color="#ffff00"> I could look for in someone wanting to test MY game out. </font><font color="#ffff00"><strong> FoH will probably get  the first look at content anyhow</strong></font><font color="#ffff00">, as they are well organized and hardcore players..."</font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ffff00">"I beg to differ on this statement. Who says they will be the first to look at this content anyhow on live servers? I know many guilds on Permafrost that are probably hardcore players too"</font> Totally agreed. Contrary to what others may think of FoH in EQ2, Permafrost they are NOT the only hardcore raid guild and NOT more capable than said other raid guilds on there, they are fairly equal, in fact as of lately those other guilds have been dominating the statics while FoH complains their members don't login and try to recruit from those other guild (with little luck, although the humerous stories of this effort in guild chat are rather entertaining). <font color="#ffff00">"You are in the mind set that FoH is the best when numerous guilds can take out any mob out there right now"</font> This is totally true, atleast for Permafrost. FoH may have once dominated Permafrost, and dominated their server in EQ1, however times change and the balance of power on Permafrost/EQ2 has shifted. FoH is still a very good guild on EQ2, however outside of their name being popular from EQ1, their "total" dominance does not exist in EQ2, or atleast any longer. The thing with FoH is they've been around for a long time, the devs can count of them when it comes to raiding end-game stuff and stick with it. They have a reputation (though from another game, and mildly in EQ2) to play long term and hardcore during that time. So it makes it easier on the devs when they can refer back to people who have played Everquest 1 in terms of "end-game" dynamics to make things hard yet do-able. As far as being -more- capable in EQ2 than other guilds on the server, or other guilds on other servers, this is not the case but does not take away from them still being a very solid raid guild. <font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">"Guilds have different playing times and not to mention there are guilds that are more hardcore then FoH, the ones that can set up a raid at anytime of the day as soon as a mob pops and kill instead of waiting for primetime"</font> This is the case on permafrost, 1-2 other raid guilds can form a raid as soon as a static comes up and have it taken out before others even realize it was spawned and re-killed. It does no good to be "hardcore" when others are dominating the spawn and continue to outfit their members on a larger overall outfitting. I've said it before, the only advantage they'd have is figuring things out on test before they go live, they're no stronger than the other guilds on their server who once they figure things out on live can equally kill the same stuff so it's not like they're cheating per say on test -and- having total spawn domination. I think the pros of having a raid guild testing outweight "server firsts" issues, server first does not necessarily mean "server domination" even more so if you got to try stuff out before others or got to the spawn first, what one guild does with 4 groups another could probably do with 2-3 so being first only is a timeline of having the right number on as soon as a spawn is put into play/goes live. I'm not going to knock FoH, I think it's great they're willing to test the stuff out so less buggy nonsense goes live, and a reliable guild that has been around for ages is one of the best directions to turn to for that testing. Doesnt mean they're more "hardcore" in EQ2, rather a long track record/history of being a solid raid guild. It's no secret they're "in bed" with the devs on some things, however with that said if it werent for some guilds in EQ1 like Afterlife, Triton, Fires of Heaven etc, there would be no "carrot on the stick" which fuels people to "hey thats cool as hell, can't wait till I get that item or get to raid that" then they play longer/get all excited about new gear. Some guilds have nearly become a marketing/commercial for the game in a sense, they've become so good for so long, everybody heads to their web pages to check out the most recent "uber" things. Props to those guilds for back when I played EQ1 for that "awe and wonder" of what to look forward to. With that said, EQ2 is a different beast, but they have the same dedication to the game, whether they're the most hardcore in EQ2/the server I suppose is a subject of debate, but you can nearly bet there will always be guilds providing "the carrot on the stick" in EQ2 it's just a matter of who it is this time around. </div> <div></div><p>Message Edited by spyderoptik on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 PM</span>

[Gorhauth]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Shennron wrote:<div>Thats all I could look for in someone wanting to test MY game out. <strong> FoH will probably get  the first look at content anyhow</strong>, as they are well organized and hardcore players...</div> <div> </div> <div>I beg to differ on this statement. Who says they will be the first to look at this content anyhow on live servers? I know many guilds on Permafrost that are probably hardcore players too not to mention all the other servers and guilds that have hardcore players. You are in the mind set that FoH is the best when numerous guilds can take out any mob out there right now. Guilds have different playing times and not to mention there are guilds that are more hardcore then FoH, the ones that can set up a raid at anytime of the day as soon as a mob pops and kill instead of waiting for primetime.</div><hr></blockquote> Which is the reason FoH spams members of other guilds begging them to join on a daily basis.  People believe that FoH is something more than they really are.  Would they be as good as they are now without seeing stuff first, or having members (as confessed in this thread) that exploit, who knows? I'm still trying to get over the part where they are 'trusted to report the exploits', yet have members that confess to them after they've been abused.  How does that fit into the trust?</span><div></div>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> goboy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Have you ever seen an expansion or major patch hitting the live servers without most severe bugs? Real testing would be nice, but in fact it looks like they just find out the exploits, and use them when they hit the live servers, and report them afterwards. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Actually, most of the severe bugs are caught.  It is the less severe bugs that make it through.  Of course, most people don't play on test so they really don't see some of the more severe bugs - they just think that the ones they see are as bad as it could have been.  Saying that, yes bugs do get through.  Test would need a dedicated population around 1200 peeps to catch all of the bugs.  Why does copying not work - then who would test the day to day stuff.  Most people who want to be copied over only want to try things that would affect them - how many would go through the low level quests or grind through the crafting levels. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't call crashing a zone by clicking off the SoW icon a small, unrepeatable bug that no one could have caught if there were more people on Test. It happened on my server enough after LU8 that I heard no less than five or six reports of it during the middle of the day when I popped in for fifteen minutes. That's pretty severe. So was the problem with resizing chat boxes making people crash. If there's a problem with copying more players over to Test because they POSSIBLY might not be good testers, they can be required to fill out applications such as the ones we all filled out for Beta. I have the feeling a lot less people would apply for copying if there were weekly posting requirements or requirements for time played, like they require for the Guide program. There are ways to get a larger population without too much more effort on the part of SOE. I have no comment on the endgame raid content, it will be a long, long time before I ever see that, if I do at all, and I think having well known guilds test the content is the most efficient way to go. But there are indeed ways to reduce the kind of normal gameplay bugs such as I mentioned previously and get more feedback for major changes.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 32 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <DIV>We dont get serverwides because we test for a few hours, we get serverwides because we're simply a better raiding guild, we were not on test for the patch mentioned earlier, and we adapted to the changes, <STRONG>and were the only guild to drop all and ANY of the contested or instanced mobs.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmm, that wasn't the case with the Zek instance when everyone thought it was broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also the king Zalak instance when the patriarchs were first added in, there was an idle time before anyone could kill him and it was done but not by FoH first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that any server has contested mobs and multiple guilds that can take them out but FoH is losing to them also shows how often they are devoted to staying online. There are other guilds out there <FONT color=#ffff00>that have more play ti</FONT>me and are devoted to getting contested mobs every time over other guilds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please stop speaking as if FoH is all powerful over other guilds. It just shows how much knowledge they have for others</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You sound like a little kid needing a pat on the back.  </P> <P>See the highlighted part?  That's all it takes to be good at this game, period.</P> <P>Everyone need's to reread what Ibishi said:  The raids in this game are *EASY*.</P> <P>Everyone who raids even half the time is getting their prismatics, all the contested are easy, this game is no where near as hard as EQ1, and the "fame" (lol) that players will receive will be no where close either.</P> <P>Oh yeah Shennron, as if it wasn't obvious enough that you guys crave attention irl for your gaming "expertise" I liked how your website read "First <STRONG>RAIDING</STRONG> guild to 30"; you know, since a few other guilds beat you to it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[ganjookie]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Shennron wrote:<div>Thats all I could look for in someone wanting to test MY game out. <strong> FoH will probably get  the first look at content anyhow</strong>, as they are well organized and hardcore players...</div><div> </div><div>I beg to differ on this statement. <font color="#ffff33">Who says they will be the first to look at this content anyhow on live servers?</font> I know many guilds on Permafrost that are probably hardcore players too not to mention all the other servers and guilds that have hardcore players. You are in the mind set that FoH is the best when numerous guilds can take out any mob out there right now. Guilds have different playing times and not to mention there are guilds that are more hardcore then FoH, the ones that can set up a raid at anytime of the day as soon as a mob pops and kill instead of waiting for primetime.</div><hr></blockquote>Certainly not me, as I said <b>probably will</b>.from dictionary.com</span><b>prob·a·bly</b>    <span>(</span><span> P </span><span>)</span>  <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html" target="_blank"><b>Pronunciation Key</b></a>  (pr<img width="7" height="15" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/obreve.gif" alt="">b<img width="4" height="22" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif" alt=""><img width="6" height="15" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif" alt="">-bl<img width="7" height="15" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/emacr.gif" alt="">)<i>adv.</i>Most likely; presumably.but i will not fight over symantics on a internet board, thatsl ike arguing who is the biggest [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]<div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <DIV>Thats all I could look for in someone wanting to test MY game out. <STRONG> FoH will probably get  the first look at content anyhow</STRONG>, as they are well organized and hardcore players...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I beg to differ on this statement. Who says they will be the first to look at this content anyhow on live servers? I know many guilds on Permafrost that are probably hardcore players too not to mention all the other servers and guilds that have hardcore players. You are in the mind set that FoH is the best when numerous guilds can take out any mob out there right now. Guilds have different playing times and not to mention there are guilds that are more hardcore then FoH, the ones that can set up a raid at anytime of the day as soon as a mob pops and kill instead of waiting for primetime.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Crying again?  What do you want?  A sign that says "NE Plus Ultra" is the best, or what?  Go be uber somewhere else.  This discussion isn't about you and your guild, its about the testing practices used by SOE on high end content.<BR>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <DIV>Thats all I could look for in someone wanting to test MY game out. <STRONG> FoH will probably get  the first look at content anyhow</STRONG>, as they are well organized and hardcore players...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I beg to differ on this statement. Who says they will be the first to look at this content anyhow on live servers? I know many guilds on Permafrost that are probably hardcore players too not to mention all the other servers and guilds that have hardcore players. You are in the mind set that FoH is the best when numerous guilds can take out any mob out there right now.<STRONG> Guilds have different playing times and not to mention there are guilds that are more hardcore then FoH, the ones that can set up a raid at anytime of the day as soon as a mob pops and kill instead of waiting for primetime.</STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><U><STRONG>Disclaimer: I am not a FoH camp follower ... my thoughts & conculsions are just stuff that I have picked up from guildchat/ooc/tells/etc ...</STRONG> </U></P> <P>Well .. it is true that FoH of EQ2 isn't "quite" the same as FoH of EQ1.  Different leaders I would presume since Furor was taken to the darkside plus the guild itself is split off into 3 different games each with a different Game/Guild Leader. </P> <P>That being said, FoH still retains it's reputation of being a very skilled group of players.  FoH looks for and recruits those players that do show an increased awareness of mob mentality as well as dedication to be Top Dog.  BTW, for those of you out there measuring your e-manhood there are several different ways to be Top Dog.  *rolls her eyes at the silly males* </P> <P>My guess would be FoH is having a hard time right now in EQ2 keeping a solid group together during a full day is due to several issues ..</P> <UL> <LI>1) Only so much content for Maxed EXP players.</LI> <LI>2) Part of the Guild is/was testing pre-live stuff. </LI> <LI>3) Only so much content for Maxed EXP Players.</LI></UL> <P>*shrug* I repeated because unfortunetly it's true.  I "presume" there is more Hard-Core Raid options on the horizon but those that have a need to measure their said e-manhood against other player's e-manhood have the NEED for it RIGHT NOW and not 2 - 6 months down the road.   *rolls her eyes at the silly males* </P> <P>For True <STRONG>Hard-Core Raiders</STRONG> .. Once the Event itself is Broken (2 wins in row usually) then it is BROKEN to that guild.  Afterwards, it is considered FARMING.  Farming to most <STRONG>Hard-Core Raiders</STRONG> is B-O-R-I-N-G.   Just because [Guild Insert Name] can log on and race to a pop and kill it before FoH even musters a group doesn't mean they are out of the running, could just mean they generally feel that mob is of low priority.   Btw, for True <STRONG>Hard-Core Raiders</STRONG> even the draw of specific lewt isn't always enough for them to redo events they consider Broken because it's not the lewt it's the accomplishment of doing the kill.  After you have killed the mob .. what's the point? ...</P> <P>I know for a fact that my guild in EQ2 isn't the same guild as in EQ1.  We don't have our real leader(s) for starters.  That's the problem with new games.  The guild itself breaks up into various different shards of that guild, each a bit more diluted than the former but each comes with it a chance to fail or suceed. </P> <P>So far in EQ2 while i haven't heard any rabid ramblings of FoH's successes, I have heard the quiet murmur of them and at the same time I haven't heard <U>anywhere near</U> as many bad things about them as I have about several other large guilds on Perma.   This tells me that they are doing well enough and that they have chosen well enough of their people that those people don't need to go around making life miserable for anyone they cross paths with just because they believe themselves to be "<STRONG>Uber</STRONG>" ...  In other words, they do their jobs and enjoy what they do.</P> <P> </P> <P>edit: board thought [guild insert name] was html /shrug .. </P><p>Message Edited by KerowynnKaotic on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 PM</span>

[fatredfr]

<DIV>You guys are hilarious.  Simple fact is we tested one encounter which never went live.   Maybe some individuals have done some various testing on Test, i know have, but it's been extremely limited.  We tested the adv raid final fight, which never went live!  The final version was completely bugged anyway (at least for us).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And about the people saying why wasn't out guild moved.....at the time this happened (about a month before bloodlines went live), there were not many guilds that had completed most of the raid content in the game.  Sure, by now every guild has killed everything under the sun, but back then, there were only a handful that completed most if not all the raid content in the game.</DIV>

[Bravnik]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marlow wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why the hell would SOE ever want to mass copy a bunch of people who want to play on their home servers, and not play to test on...eh...well, test?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What sort of sense does that make?  Unless you're taking an entire guild to test raid content or several players to test solo content, and you KNOW from past experience that they WILL test and WILL do a good job, it doesn't make any sense at all.  <FONT color=#ffff00>What you're all suggesting is for SOE to give you a free pass to test things when you want to, just to get a feel, figure out the good farming spots, how to strat a mob etc, and then go back to your home server/guild and use that....and isn't that exactly what people are crying about here?</FONT>  That FOH or other guilds/players are getting a "free look" at content so that the 'racers' on those guilds' home servers are at a disadvantage to the copied guilds?  I mean which do you want? <FONT color=#ff9900> How about no copies so the high end content gets tested whenever someone gets to it on release?  Why should SOE get a whole bunch of part time testers when they can get a few full time testers, and some seasonal testers that REALLY want to make their work count?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh I understand what you're saying, Iustus, I just don't think its a good idea.  My point is, you put 25000 part time testers on that server, and you've got the law of diminishing returns before testing even begins...and then when you do decide to test, just to make sure your new nuke damage is up to your standards, <FONT color=#6666ff>SOE is supposed to cherish your thoughts and opinions</FONT>?  Because you did them a favor by logging on this month?  Sorry, I don't buy it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: putting on flamesuit...</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Marlow on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:49 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I really don't think that is what anyone is stating or insinuating at all.  Some people are upset with the fact the SOE uses a  well known hardcore, highend raid guild, that already has alot of first discoveries.  I really wouldn't know who else to choose, but  FoH seems to be:<BR><BR>     1. Dedicated to the game<BR>      2. Well knowledgeable about the game AND testing procedures<BR>      3. Willing to help SOE out and smash bugs before it comes to the live servers<BR>      4. Trustworthy enough to the devs to be copied over to test.<BR><BR>Thats all I could look for in someone wanting to test MY game out.  FoH will probably get  the first look at content anyhow, as they are well organized and hardcore players...<BR><BR>As for no testing the highend content until someone reaches it, seems asinine to me.  When the game was first released and there was little or no testing on highend content, there where/are numerous complaints about loot tables, quests not updating etc tec.  Why go through that again, when SOE has willing and able players who know thier [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and want to help make the game the best it can be.  Even if FoH and the other guilds helping on test get a special title, <B>whoppideedoo</B> they have a title.  SOE doesnt need to hire 25k people to test the game, yet again, IMHO, asinine.  Our subscription rates would go up( maybe), but definatley adventure packs.<BR><BR>I would also rather SOE not cherish me in such a way, I just want to pay my monthly fee, group up with some friends, go on a dungeon crawl, kill a dragon, and get some phat lewt.  I do not need SPE catering to every whim and fancy.  SOE is here to make money, which is good cause I want to give them money to play.<BR><BR>OK time for me to clock back into work, enjoy your day!<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Again, this is all fine and dandy. However, I assure you FOH does not test this stuff to help out SOE. They would only do this if they got something in return. That something is a first look at the upcomming high end content. That knowledge is CRUCIAL because it gives them a HUGE advantage in a game that gives Titles and Specail consideration for World Firsts.</P> <P>Getting people to test your end game stuff is fine. Just don't copy an entire RAIDING guild over to Test and allow them to prefect their straegy before anyone else even knows the content is in the game. That is the same as Insider Trading on the stock market. It is UNFAIR to the rest of the public as one guild has the knowledge. One guild already has their strategy to defeat the encounter before 99% of the other guilds even know their is an encounter to begin with.</P> <P>If you do feel you need to have an entire Raiding Guild copied over, then you need to make it to where they DON'T get credit for World Firsts or Server Firsts...EVER. That would make it fair to everyone else. I don't care it its FOH or any other Raiding Guild. If they are copied over, then they should NOT get credit for World/Server Firsts.</P> <P>Do you think FOH (or any other guild for that matter) would be so willing to help out on Test if they didn't get World/Server discoveries? I doubt it. So if you need some incentive for them to test, give them ALL free accounts if they help test.</P> <P>The point is by copying over an ENTIRE Raiding Guild,  it lets them build their strategy and get access to the content way before anyone else. This gives them an unfair advantage in a game that recognises World / Server firsts. Take away that recognition and you take away the issue. Sure they can still waltz around preening that they were the first to kill something. But now we all know that they really are not all that good. They just got to practive on Test over and over again until they got it right....So LAME!</P></DIV>

[KerowynnKaotic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bravnik wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marlow wrote:<BR> <DIV>*snipped* </DIV> <DIV>Message Edited by Marlow on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:49 PM</SPAN><BR></DIV> <HR> *snipped*</BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Again, this is all fine and dandy. However, I assure you FOH does not test this stuff to help out SOE. They would only do this if they got something in return. That something is a first look at the upcomming high end content. That knowledge is CRUCIAL because it gives them a HUGE advantage in a game that gives Titles and Specail consideration for World Firsts.</P> <P>*snipped*  </P> <P>The point is by copying over an ENTIRE Raiding Guild,  it lets them build their strategy and get access to the content way before anyone else. This gives them an unfair advantage in a game that recognises World / Server firsts. Take away that recognition and you take away the issue. Sure they can still waltz around preening that they were the first to kill something. But now we all know that they really are not all that good. They just got to practive on Test over and over again until they got it right....So LAME!</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are assuming that SoE is putting that whole guild inside of the entire event. </P> <P>Well, in some cases they might be but I would guess the testing would be way more involved than that.  I would guess that the testing is actually in a lot of bits and pieces.  I know they can rig several events that they give the players full suits of specific armor/weapons and even certain skills and spells.   I don't doubt that they do something similar with testing.  The only difference in that they have probably <STRONG><U>several</U></STRONG> guilds whom they use as /copycharacter to test to do Final Runs on various different Final Events options, using their own mix-match armor/weapons/skills/spells to see how it will really play out in a live situation.    </P> <P>There is a big difference between for Event #22's Final Run #1 and Final Run #16 of which could be tested/tweaked by several different Live Server Guilds and/or Test Server Guilds before it become Completed Event #22. <BR></P>

[LuckyPSD]

Here is a quick way of summing it all up, for all you other uber guilds out there who wished it was them who tested this and not FoH, lets answer some easy questions. OK amount of raiding done in game - check. Amount of time spent honing toons to work well using different statagies - check. Amount of ACTUAL testing experience you have- ooo shame thats the biggie right there. See thats what its about, this guild has been doing testing work for alot of years where as alot of other people who are now asking why it wasn't them has absolutly no testing experience and thats what the devs need, not some one who can play the game well and kill the uberest of uber bosses but some one who can actually test it properly and give good feedback.  There is alot more than saying we are at guildng ranking X and we have killed X mobs. Some of you other guilds out there will very probably be a better playing guild than FoH, I do not know, I don't know your guild or theirs but did you not wonder why they are asked to test alot rather than some one else's? They have done it before and have testing experience. The obvious answer is this, if your guild isnt allowed to test you cant get this experience. My reply is simple, why would you get this chance? SOE already has a guild who is experienced and knows how to do it, why bother asking another guild to do it when they might not know how to test content or need extra time to learn how and thus add a delay to the release of the content? And all they did was test one boss mob, they didnt know the quests leading up to it or how to go about it did they? Its like me saying I have 7 questions and the answer to the last question is "Blue" now off you go and solve it. Knowing the last peice of the puzzle is not the full answer given away. <div></div>

[Ethi]

<DIV>Actually you could do what they do on the EQ team.  They tend to not allow testers to loot or do certain things for new events.  I mean finding out whats in the metal box isn't really necessary for testing.  And on events and things I'd think people could be transported to disconnected parts of content to test specific functions.  Again this is how I've seen it done when testing updates for EQ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But there are some areas where people will get some knowledge and as you say it is unavoidable... </DIV>

[otlg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LuckyPSD wrote:<BR>Amount of ACTUAL testing experience you have- ooo shame thats the biggie right there.<BR><BR>See thats what its about, this guild has been doing testing work for alot of years where as alot of other people who are now asking why it wasn't them has absolutly no testing experience and thats what the devs need, not some one who can play the game well and kill the uberest of uber bosses but some one who can actually test it properly and give good feedback. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ding ding ding.. someone gets it. (I'm not on Permaforst, and I'm not in an uber guild)...</P> <P>If you want more proof that this is a prime motivator look at 99% of the comments on these forums.  The extent of the feedback is usually:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>OMG I was (soloing/raiding/etc.) this mob and it killed (me/us).  This game sucks.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><EM>or</EM></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>OMG I was (soloing/raiding/etc.) this mob and it was too easy.  This game sucks.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As someone who has run development groups and IT departments for years, let me say, everyone thinks they make a good tester.  The reality is, testing, *really truly* testing something is boring, tedious and annoying work that few people have the attention or articulation to do correctly. It's one thing to find a bug.  It's another to find out how to reproduce it (here's a hint, if you can't reproduce it, don't even bother reporting it, *way* too many variables to hunt through).  Finally you then have to be able to articulate: the problem, the method by which to reproduce it *and* what you believe should be correct behavio(u)r of the affected system.</P> <P>Hell just look at this thread... 99% whining, 1% valid and/or well articulated arguement.</P> <P>Regards,</P> <P>Osiri (oggok & test)<BR></P>

[Bravnik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> otlg wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LuckyPSD wrote:<BR>Amount of ACTUAL testing experience you have- ooo shame thats the biggie right there.<BR><BR>See thats what its about, this guild has been doing testing work for alot of years where as alot of other people who are now asking why it wasn't them has absolutly no testing experience and thats what the devs need, not some one who can play the game well and kill the uberest of uber bosses but some one who can actually test it properly and give good feedback. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ding ding ding.. someone gets it. (I'm not on Permaforst, and I'm not in an uber guild)...</P> <P>If you want more proof that this is a prime motivator look at 99% of the comments on these forums.  The extent of the feedback is usually:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>OMG I was (soloing/raiding/etc.) this mob and it killed (me/us).  This game sucks.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><EM>or</EM></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>OMG I was (soloing/raiding/etc.) this mob and it was too easy.  This game sucks.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As someone who has run development groups and IT departments for years, let me say, everyone thinks they make a good tester.  The reality is, testing, *really truly* testing something is boring, tedious and annoying work that few people have the attention or articulation to do correctly. It's one thing to find a bug.  It's another to find out how to reproduce it (here's a hint, if you can't reproduce it, don't even bother reporting it, *way* too many variables to hunt through).  Finally you then have to be able to articulate: the problem, the method by which to reproduce it *and* what you believe should be correct behavio(u)r of the affected system.</P> <P>Hell just look at this thread... 99% whining, 1% valid and/or well articulated arguement.</P> <P>Regards,</P> <P>Osiri (oggok & test)<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>For someone who suppose to run an IT department, you need some common sense. FOH (or any quild) is not copied to the Test Server  to run QA testing. They are there to test the Raid Encounters for Ease/Difficulty. They are there to find the Strategy to defeat the encounter. They are there to find ways to do something that SOE didn't think of. Sure they might not have to complete the quests to get there (possibly they do), but they sure get to fight the encounter as it is intended to go to live. Sure changes will be made based on this, but the encounter will eventually reach an acceptable level based on this testing. Of which, FOH will have the strategy already.</P> <P>There is NO WAY, they are going to pull a bunch of MMO gamers to do real testing and bug reporting. FOH or any other guild is there for one reason and one reason only, to get to see the content first. It gives an advantage.</P> <P>If this was also common in EQ, then that explains why FOH was normally the FIRST to complete the end game encounters. They had knowledge of the encounter before it was even released.</P> <P>EQ2 gives incentives for being first to complete things. Giving them access to new encounters and expansions is fine. Just don't allow anyone copied to Test to obtain the special titles or World First status. This would make it fair to everyone (Even though I doubt FOH would participate anymore in the so called tests).</P> <P>Let FOH (or any other guild copied to Test) be the first to kill uber mob1. Who cares now as we all know they get time to perfect their strategy on Test so them being first means NOTHING anymore.</P> <P> </P>

[Bravnik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KerowynnKaotic wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bravnik wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marlow wrote:<BR> <DIV>*snipped* </DIV> <DIV>Message Edited by Marlow on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:49 PM</SPAN><BR></DIV> <HR> *snipped*</BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Again, this is all fine and dandy. However, I assure you FOH does not test this stuff to help out SOE. They would only do this if they got something in return. That something is a first look at the upcomming high end content. That knowledge is CRUCIAL because it gives them a HUGE advantage in a game that gives Titles and Specail consideration for World Firsts.</P> <P>*snipped*  </P> <P>The point is by copying over an ENTIRE Raiding Guild,  it lets them build their strategy and get access to the content way before anyone else. This gives them an unfair advantage in a game that recognises World / Server firsts. Take away that recognition and you take away the issue. Sure they can still waltz around preening that they were the first to kill something. But now we all know that they really are not all that good. They just got to practive on Test over and over again until they got it right....So LAME!</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are assuming that SoE is putting that whole guild inside of the entire event. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I assume they let in enough to beat the event. You can make that assumption because there would be NO point in sending any less as they would wipe immediatly which would allow little to no usable data. Think before you post please.</FONT></P> <P>Well, in some cases they might be but I would guess the testing would be way more involved than that.  I would guess that the testing is actually in a lot of bits and pieces.  I know they can rig several events that they give the players full suits of specific armor/weapons and even certain skills and spells.   I don't doubt that they do something similar with testing.  The only difference in that they have probably <STRONG><U>several</U></STRONG> guilds whom they use as /copycharacter to test to do Final Runs on various different Final Events options, using their own mix-match armor/weapons/skills/spells to see how it will really play out in a live situation.    </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I doubt every seriously that the testing would be more than simply saying, "here is the encounter, good luck".  </FONT></P> <P>There is a big difference between for Event #22's Final Run #1 and Final Run #16 of which could be tested/tweaked by several different Live Server Guilds and/or Test Server Guilds before it become Completed Event #22.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes but the end result would be an encounter that is difficult to almost impossable for FOH to defeat, thus making it difficult to almost impossable for any guild given FOH's status. The end result would still be that FOH has information that every other guild does not have.....giving them World Firsts or Special Titles for defeating encounters they helped design is just wrong. Or do you not agree.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Again, I could care less if its FOH or any other End Game Guild. It just happens to be FOH in this instance.</FONT><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[ganjookie]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><div><blockquote><span><blockquote><hr> </blockquote></span></blockquote><p>Again, this is all fine and dandy. However, I assure you FOH does not test this stuff to help out SOE. They would only do this if they got something in return. That something is a first look at the upcomming high end content. That knowledge is CRUCIAL because it gives them a HUGE advantage in a game that gives Titles and Specail consideration for World Firsts.</p> <p>Getting people to test your end game stuff is fine. Just don't copy an entire RAIDING guild over to Test and allow them to prefect their straegy before anyone else even knows the content is in the game. That is the same as Insider Trading on the stock market. It is UNFAIR to the rest of the public as one guild has the knowledge. One guild already has their strategy to defeat the encounter before 99% of the other guilds even know their is an encounter to begin with.</p> <p>If you do feel you need to have an entire Raiding Guild copied over, then you need to make it to where they DON'T get credit for World Firsts or Server Firsts...EVER. That would make it fair to everyone else. I don't care it its FOH or any other Raiding Guild. If they are copied over, then they should NOT get credit for World/Server Firsts.</p> <p>Do you think FOH (or any other guild for that matter) would be so willing to help out on Test if they didn't get World/Server discoveries? I doubt it. So if you need some incentive for them to test, give them ALL free accounts if they help test.</p> <p>The point is by copying over an ENTIRE Raiding Guild,  it lets them build their strategy and get access to the content way before anyone else. This gives them an unfair advantage in a game that recognises World / Server firsts. Take away that recognition and you take away the issue. Sure they can still waltz around preening that they were the first to kill something. But now we all know that they really are not all that good. They just got to practive on Test over and over again until they got it right....So LAME!</p></div><hr></blockquote>( when I mention FoH, I mean all of the guilds SOE is using, as I am aware it is not just one guild. Its just easier to say that, as most people don't use most of thier brain to comprehend that.  My apologies FoH in using your name in any disrespectful way) Are you on the test server? SOE has trust in FoH, thats all I care about.  I'm not here to debate about FoH and how they get game/server firsts.  I don't care who finds what first really.  It wont make my pecker any bigger or smaller if I find one or not.  Even though FoH is on MY server, what they do has no effect on me what so ever.  Ok well maybe the Plague  cure did ( thanks guys) but I don't give a flying rats [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] who found what.  If there is info on on a certain item that would benefiet me, cool.  If not oh well. This is not Wall Street, this is a online game enviroment created and provided for us by SOE, they make the decisions, they are [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing GOD!  if you disagree with God, then you are s.o.l. because God is everything and is always right, in his opinion. ( Don't quote Dogma to me, its just a movie). Good day sir</span><div></div><p>[edit: removed unnecesary quotes]<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by ganjookie on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 PM</span>

[Raxe Sla]

<DIV>So heres the real question, did any of the Devs/Soe Representatives have prior relationships with the people in this guild?  Or was it just that the CRS people and devs, watch every server see who is the best and then selected FoH.  I'd like to know the answer to that.  honestly if this was a competing guild on my server I would very mad.</DIV>

[Shennr]

Nice of you to point out my post twice Gage. It further explains that I am not bragging as I have not mentioned any guild name nor accomplishments. I have talked with members of different guilds on other servers and I am going with what I hear from them.

[Ibis]

<div></div><div></div>not a single title or world first gained from any activities on test.  the vague "what-ifs" are netertaining, but if you have specific doubts about what we do, go on and ask.  They will be answered.  FoH has nothing to hide.  We have done nothing even close to what some have accused, and have benefited very little from our ability to test content.  I'll say again, the only encounter we tested was the adventure pack, and as a previous guildie mentioned, it was broken.  We didn't test it ever again because of how long the event takes to get through (you know what I mean).  We were assured the event would be less broken before live, thanked for our trouble, and left be.  As far as I know the event never even got fixed on test before it went live.  And was toned back even more quite recently. No, we didn't get to try the mob in his actual form.  He was unwinnable when we tested it.  We didn't get to see his loot because we didn't kill him.  We didn't know about the artifact item until it was already up on ogaming by a guild that did not get copied to test.  And you can be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] sure that is a great guild.  I'm not aware which one it was, but hats off to them. Enough with the "what-if" bull.  None of the "what-ifs" have been committed by FoH.  If an event goes to live we either can or can't beat it ON LIVE, and thats all that matters to us.  We don't rush to test upon every change and parse every event and hours of grind data to enter into our supercomputer for analysis.  I have recently logged to test to solo a white con heroic fire giant, and /feedbacked "fabled gear is too strong".  I've got a full white suit of fabled plate.  Its completely in my interest to have fabled equipment beefed up.  Why in hell would I report that my stuff is too good?  Maybe because I'm tired of the game being trivial kthx.  I also logged in to see that kite and tower shields are now identical in shield factor - to my dismay.  I disagree with it, but there are other changes in the works I'm unaware of.  In either case I don't have some red phone to send my personal thoughts on balance back to the developers.  Thats why I'm on these forums writing up my thoughts just like the rest of you schmucks(sp?). Thank you for all the support, even though much of it has nothing to do with personal aspects of FoH.  The majority of the negative comments are out of line and off-topic.  Yes, we are the best guild on Permafrost.  Last time the epics were difficult only FoH stayed standing.  That won't change.  I hope I get the chance to prove it.   edit - gage, you know that guy?  who is he in NPU?  some clownshoes from that guild sent some pretty stupid tells.  apparently a few of them want to extend their e-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] beyond just one server. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:54 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR>Nice of you to point out my post twice Gage. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You're welcome.<BR>

[Merovingian]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KerowynnKaotic wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shennron wrote:<BR> <DIV>Thats all I could look for in someone wanting to test MY game out. <STRONG> FoH will probably get  the first look at content anyhow</STRONG>, as they are well organized and hardcore players...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I beg to differ on this statement. Who says they will be the first to look at this content anyhow on live servers? I know many guilds on Permafrost that are probably hardcore players too not to mention all the other servers and guilds that have hardcore players. You are in the mind set that FoH is the best when numerous guilds can take out any mob out there right now.<STRONG> Guilds have different playing times and not to mention there are guilds that are more hardcore then FoH, the ones that can set up a raid at anytime of the day as soon as a mob pops and kill instead of waiting for primetime.</STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><U><STRONG>Disclaimer: I am not a FoH camp follower ... my thoughts & conculsions are just stuff that I have picked up from guildchat/ooc/tells/etc ...</STRONG> </U></P> <P>Well .. it is true that FoH of EQ2 isn't "quite" the same as FoH of EQ1.  Different leaders I would presume since Furor was taken to the darkside plus the guild itself is split off into 3 different games each with a different Game/Guild Leader. </P> <P>That being said, FoH still retains it's reputation of being a very skilled group of players.  FoH looks for and recruits those players that do show an increased awareness of mob mentality as well as dedication to be Top Dog.  BTW, for those of you out there measuring your e-manhood there are several different ways to be Top Dog.  *rolls her eyes at the silly males* </P> <P>My guess would be FoH is having a hard time right now in EQ2 keeping a solid group together during a full day is due to several issues ..</P> <UL> <LI>1) Only so much content for Maxed EXP players.</LI> <LI>2) Part of the Guild is/was testing pre-live stuff. </LI> <LI>3) Only so much content for Maxed EXP Players.</LI></UL> <P>*shrug* I repeated because unfortunetly it's true.  I "presume" there is more Hard-Core Raid options on the horizon but those that have a need to measure their said e-manhood against other player's e-manhood have the NEED for it RIGHT NOW and not 2 - 6 months down the road.   *rolls her eyes at the silly males* </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=5>TRUE.</FONT>  </P> <P>For True <STRONG>Hard-Core Raiders</STRONG> .. Once the Event itself is Broken (2 wins in row usually) then it is BROKEN to that guild.  Afterwards, it is considered FARMING.  Farming to most <STRONG>Hard-Core Raiders</STRONG> is B-O-R-I-N-G.   Just because [Guild Insert Name] can log on and race to a pop and kill it before FoH even musters a group doesn't mean they are out of the running, could just mean they generally feel that mob is of low priority.   Btw, for True <STRONG>Hard-Core Raiders</STRONG> even the draw of specific lewt isn't always enough for them to redo events they consider Broken because it's not the lewt it's the accomplishment of doing the kill.  After you have killed the mob .. what's the point? ...</P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff3300 size=4>So VERY TRUE!</FONT></P> <P>I know for a fact that my guild in EQ2 isn't the same guild as in EQ1.  We don't have our real leader(s) for starters.  That's the problem with new games.  The guild itself breaks up into various different shards of that guild, each a bit more diluted than the former but each comes with it a chance to fail or suceed. </P> <P>So far in EQ2 while i haven't heard any rabid ramblings of FoH's successes, I have heard the quiet murmur of them and at the same time I haven't heard <U>anywhere near</U> as many bad things about them as I have about several other large guilds on Perma.   This tells me that they are doing well enough and that they have chosen well enough of their people that those people don't need to go around making life miserable for anyone they cross paths with just because they believe themselves to be "<STRONG>Uber</STRONG>" ...  In other words, they do their jobs and enjoy what they do.    </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV>I was trying hard to refrain from entering this discussion, but find it unbearable and disconcerning that some of you criticize SOE for copying FoH chars to test server and, even more troubling to me, is that some have attempted to slander, in true bad faith, the reputation of FoH as the an uber guild.   So I reluctantly enter the fray.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a member of FoH.   The Merovingian I am.   For those who criticize SoE for copying our characters to test, your arguments are either factually untrue, incorrect, or solely based on jealousy.   In either case, you are completely wrong in your conclusions.   Trust me when I say this, we provide a benefit to SOE and to all of its player base.  We have tried to assist in making this game the best it can be.   We test this content for all of you, not for ourselves or discovering some secret strategy.  Not once has anyone in guild chat said anything about some secret method to killing a mob they found while testing it.   We honestly don't think that way.  We kill mobs they want us to fight, they observe, they adjust, the game benefits.   We do not provide any testing services for anything other than raid content or general combat.  Occassionally a developer has zoned us in small groups to an area to fight different mobs and often making us mentor down and then testing normal and named mobs.  ( the last few times I did it, we fought in sol eye and was asked to mentor down.)   We don't search for quests like the Froglok's in the hopes of unlocking them first.  It would be a waste of time for us to do so, plus it would be a breach of SOE trust to play on test for the sole purpose of having server firsts.  Not once, as anyone mentioned anything about finding the Froglok's quest on test, or any other game breaking quest.   In fact, NOT one time has anyone in my guild ever asked to do anything on test other than test raid content, ....often with the presence of a developer.    We don't look for hidden quests or great items.  We don't tradeskill on test.  In fact, the times I have been on test, we don't even look at the loot.   We don't care.  We are there solely to test the content and for the developers to observe raid and combat encounters in person and to make necessary changes.   It isn't that big of deal as most of you make it.   But in the end, you all reap the benefits from it.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furthermore, we never do anything on test so as to give us an advantage on having server firsts.  You might not believe this, but at no time during guild chat have I ever seen someone say "I just got server first for ...."     It isn't a big deal for our guild.  The only thing FoH cares about is raiding successfully.  The server firsts will come, and so will the loot eventually.    No one tracks that kind of stuff for our guild.  I have no idea how many server firsts I have, or Alloria or Noah.  Don't care.  I don't think they care.  The only thing they care about it is focusing on the next mob we fight and defeating it, and most of all, having fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moreover, and trust me when I say this, we would have the same server firsts with or without having tested the raid content.  We have always killed every mob we have encountered the same night we first fight it.   Heck, I remember when Vox was doing 8000 aoe damage and no guild could kill it.  It was bugged and was instant death for everyone for a few weeks back in February(?).   We killed it on our second attempt.  Other guilds didnt even try it as they knew it would be an utter waste of their time. Ardent Legion might have.  I don't know.  But (.....they know who they are.....) watched us and I remember their members sending me tells in utter amazement.   Also, we have killed Cursed with 10 peeps before he was nerfed.   And on both occasions we hadn't tested either encounter.    It wouldn't have made a difference.   So to say we get a leg up on everybody is pointless and untrue.  FoH killed Venekor first on PF and had never tested it before, and killed it the first night.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition, we don't test every raid mob, at least I haven't on test, and yet, when a mob or zone goes live, we still clear the zone or raid mob without any problems.   Our success has nothing to do with testing raid content.   Every encounter we have fought in this game wouldn't have changed had we not been on test.  In fact, truth be told, we would probably be even better without being on test since sometimes when we killed a mob on test we might take the encounter for granted in live server and not focus or concentrate as much.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moreover, we only test the raid content in its "final beta" stage.  Often, the mob is more difficult when we first encounter it on live server as a result of having defeated it on test and the developers making it tougher for live or adding a few final new abilities, ie. Arch Lich, King Zalak.   I believe on both occasions new abilities were added to the live Arch Lich without ever hitting test.  Yet, we still defeated it the first go around.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for those egregious, mean-spirited, jealousy-ridden, unsupported, slanderous statements about FoH and its ranking among the top guilds in game, and its difficulty in maintaining a 24 man raid party, I will say this...... First, it isn't necessary right now for FoH to gather 24 chars to kill any mob in game.   Every mob can be killed with 18 or less.   Second, Kerowynnkaotic is right, there is only so much content in game right now for maxed out characters.   Alot have left.  I rarely play anymore.  Maybe once a week.  Been 50 since January I think.   Fighting the same static mobs every night gets old.  But our membership still has the best players in game in my opinion.   I have no doubt on that.  I have played almost every MMORPG there is.  Been in the "uber guilds" and can honestly say that FoH has always had dedicated, intelligent, very skillful, and disciplined players.  Some have left.  Alot are still playing.   FoH has and will always have the ranking as a top guild.  Alloria is a great guild leader.  Amazingly intelligent in his knowledge of gameplay and strategy.  Same goes for Noah and Mystque and Faille.  As long as FoH has them, they will succeed against any mob, any time, with any raid party.   But we are not the only uber guild and don't claim to be, there are others like Ardent Legion.  We know that, but to criticize FoH and slander there good name is uncalled for.    The game isn't set up right now for true hard core players that enjoy the challenge of defeating the epic mob, rather than farming the loot.  Once you have killed Venekor and Darathar and Vox a hundred times (guessing), it gets boring.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But you are correct, palyers have left FoH, ...But players will always leave.  Especially right now when the content is limited for those of us used to tremendous amounts of content.  Hardcore players have been spoiled by other games including EQL.  We expect that now, and are saddened when we log in and find the same small amount of raid mobs by comparison.   FoH has lost some great players because of this.  But they replenish the ranks.  You all have to remember FOH only recruits hardcore, serious, skillful players.   Those types have a tendency to want to be proactive in gameplay and conquer new encounters.  If that isn't happening, they get bored and move on to dominate another game.   Our members are not the casual, level up to 50 in 6 months type of players who play for the quests and just for the sake of logging in to waste some time.   They are driven for a common goal.  If that goal is acheived then they move on to the next mob, but eventually in this game in its infant stages, no goals are left.   So they are forced to replenish more often than other casual guilds with members who are not so driven to succeed.  Its the nature of the beast.  But they have always succeeded in doing so, and will certainly continue. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for me, I love this game.  Graphics are great.  Quests for levels 1-49 are terrific.   But when you have been 50 for months and months, the game seems to disappoint.  Not a knock on SOE.  They can only do so much in its early stages like now.   I am confident that in time they will focus on the level 50 player base and provide tremendous amounts of content including quests and raids to satisfy our appetite.    But right now, it is really only the Fire and Ice/Deception quests, and maybe one or two more smaller ones that have any relevancy for us.  Sad but true.   As a result, alot of my friends and playmates have left  after hitting 50.  Alot!  And I find myself rarely eager to log in.  In fact, I logged in last night for the simple reason of soloing a lvl 50 double up grouped mob and then soloing Iceberg and Tundra Jack(x2).  I am a lvl 50 Wizard.  That brings me to another point, ....when a lvl 50 Wizard or Warlock can solo a lvl 50 Grouped ^^ mob and a lvl 50 x2 mob, then something is wrong.  The game is a little out of wack.  Not that we need to be nerfed, but encounters need to be made more difficult <U>especailly raid mobs</U>. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for those comments about there not being much difference between guilds at this point in time.  No, there isn't.   Why?  Because the raid mobs are way to easy.   It doesn't take much effort to be successful  Why?  Because alot of guilds who are unsuccessful in raiding come to the forums and whine.  They whine until a raid mob is nerfed.   There was a time when Krathuk and Zalak and others spawned numerous adds, uncontrollably, unlimited in number, and neither Atro....., or any other guild on our server could kill them,...except us.   People whined.  SOE caved in.  Mobs became easier.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game isn't like EQL in the disparity right now in raid content.  It is difficult to separate one guild from another.  There was a time when Darathar was difficult.  FoH killed him the first night.  Ardent Legion was the only other guild to have prismatics.  But what happened,......Darathar was nerfed.  Now everyone can kill him.  The line for separation amongst the guilds is not there right now.   But at every turn when a line can be drawn, FoH is always at the top.  Atrocious and other guilds can act like they keep up at those moments, but they know they don't.  Eventually they kill it after the nerf, then say......"FoH ain't so tough."   But those moments for disparity are few and far between right now.    Time will help cure that.  But for now, guilds want to brag about keeping up with AL and FoH, as if it is some uber achievement especially considering the low level of difficulty in killing raid mobs and expecially considering that it shouldn't matter what FoH or AL does or kills or whether you can do it too.  Most of us strive for the challenge of defeating a terribly difficult epic mob.  We want to spend hours on end fighting that ultimate challenge only to lose time and again until we finally succeed.  That is the high or joy we seek.  Not farming.  Any guild in this game can gather enough peeps to kill any mob any time.  Its too easy.   Does FoH sit at the computer waiting for Nagalik to spawn?  No.  Why?  The challenge isnt there.  If it was, we could gather enough at anytime of day.   Anytime a new mobs enters the fray, we are there, first in line, waiting for the challenge, only to defeat it and walk away with pride, often not caring about the loot or number of rubies we get.   That is not the purpose for us.  It is the challenge!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone should just play the game for fun, do the best they can, and not defeat mobs for the sake of saying "FoH killed it, and so did we.....ergo we are awesome."   In time, the top guilds will set themselves apart.  Have no doubt my friends.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, in conclusion, let your jealousy of testing content leave you, see the benefit we provide to the game, be happy someone is testing the content to make this game the best it can be or we hope it to be, and, further, ..........brag if you must about keeping up with FoH, denouce their ranking among the top guilds, but remember it isn't so terribly difficult right now to keep up  .  When it was difficult, .......very few did, ........and in time, very few will.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <p>Message Edited by MerovingianII on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:22 PM</span>

[otlg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bravnik wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>For someone who suppose to run an IT department, you need some common sense.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And you need some manners, but moving on...</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bravnik wrote:<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>FOH (or any quild) is not copied to the Test Server  to run QA testing. They are there to test the Raid Encounters for Ease/Difficulty. They are there to find the Strategy to defeat the encounter. They are there to find ways to do something that SOE didn't think of.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow this sure sounds like QA testing to me... Make sure the product (in this case content) functions as expected without any unexpected loopholes, errors or omissions.... sound <STRONG>exactly</STRONG> like QA to me. </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bravnik wrote:<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>There is NO WAY, they are going to pull a bunch of MMO gamers to do real testing and bug reporting.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Apparently they have.. so that would make you <STRONG>wrong</STRONG>.. but again.. moving on... </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bravnik wrote:</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>FOH or any other guild is there for one reason and one reason only, to get to see the content first. It gives an advantage. </P> <P>Let FOH (or any other guild copied to Test) be the first to kill uber mob1. Who cares now as we all know they get time to perfect their strategy on Test so them being first means NOTHING anymore.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So you admit you are complaining for no reason then.. good, glad you realize that now.</P> <P> </P> <P>Osiri</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ibishi wrote:<BR> gage, you know that guy?  who is he in NPU?  some clownshoes from that guild sent some pretty stupid tells.  apparently a few of them want to extend their e-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] beyond just one server. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, his in-game name is Shennron too; and in his defense he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to me that would be sending stupid tells cross-server, although there are a lot of those "uber kiddie" types in NPU.</P> <P>He is just a member afaik, not an officer or anything; one of their healers.</P> <P>But I would just dismiss it, as the majority of their attitude comes from one of their leaders, Poac who is a little too much on the 1337 uber kiddie side.<BR></P>

[Bravnik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ganjookie wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Again, this is all fine and dandy. However, I assure you FOH does not test this stuff to help out SOE. They would only do this if they got something in return. That something is a first look at the upcomming high end content. That knowledge is CRUCIAL because it gives them a HUGE advantage in a game that gives Titles and Specail consideration for World Firsts.</P> <P>Getting people to test your end game stuff is fine. Just don't copy an entire RAIDING guild over to Test and allow them to prefect their straegy before anyone else even knows the content is in the game. That is the same as Insider Trading on the stock market. It is UNFAIR to the rest of the public as one guild has the knowledge. One guild already has their strategy to defeat the encounter before 99% of the other guilds even know their is an encounter to begin with.</P> <P>If you do feel you need to have an entire Raiding Guild copied over, then you need to make it to where they DON'T get credit for World Firsts or Server Firsts...EVER. That would make it fair to everyone else. I don't care it its FOH or any other Raiding Guild. If they are copied over, then they should NOT get credit for World/Server Firsts.</P> <P>Do you think FOH (or any other guild for that matter) would be so willing to help out on Test if they didn't get World/Server discoveries? I doubt it. So if you need some incentive for them to test, give them ALL free accounts if they help test.</P> <P>The point is by copying over an ENTIRE Raiding Guild,  it lets them build their strategy and get access to the content way before anyone else. This gives them an unfair advantage in a game that recognises World / Server firsts. Take away that recognition and you take away the issue. Sure they can still waltz around preening that they were the first to kill something. But now we all know that they really are not all that good. They just got to practive on Test over and over again until they got it right....So LAME!</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>( when I mention FoH, I mean all of the guilds SOE is using, as I am aware it is not just one guild. Its just easier to say that, as most people don't use most of thier brain to comprehend that.  My apologies FoH in using your name in any disrespectful way)<BR><BR>Are you on the test server?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Funny you should ask. I have requested NUMEROUS times to be copied to Test. Not even a reply to my direct PMs. I'm one of maybe 60 Coercer 45+ World Wide offering my time to test Coercer Issues and nay a word.</FONT><BR><BR>SOE has trust in FoH, thats all I care about.  I'm not here to debate about FoH and how they get game/server firsts.  I don't care who finds what first really.  It wont make my pecker any bigger or smaller if I find one or not.  Even though FoH is on MY server, what they do has no effect on me what so ever.  Ok well maybe the Plague  cure did ( thanks guys) but I don't give a flying rats [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] who found what.  If there is info on on a certain item that would benefiet me, cool.  If not oh well.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>FOH just happens to be full of people who don't have a life at all and play EQ/EQ2. They don't trust them, they just happen to be one of the most dedicated guilds in Everquest. The figure if FOH has a hard time defeating their encounters, then anyone will. Simple truth.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I'm glad you don't care who did what or when, but I assure you there are many more people who do. Especially people who complete directly with FOH for the honor of being first to do something. So if you don't care, then fine. I happen too. Not because I compete for them. I'm in a mom and pop Raiding guild. I care because I believe in being fair to everyone. When someone already knows something in a competition, then they have the advantage. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>They say they are trying to help. I say BS. If they are just doing it to help, then take away  their ability to get special titles and world firsts. Then lets see.</FONT><BR><BR>This is not Wall Street, this is a online game enviroment created and provided for us by SOE, they make the decisions, they are [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing GOD!  if you disagree with God, then you are s.o.l. because God is everything and is always right, in his opinion. ( Don't quote Dogma to me, its just a movie).</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>LOL - You done sucking ... well you know what. I have every right to voice my opinion on what I think is fair and what is not. Just as you have every right to disagree. SOE is not GOD as I can just stop playing and SOE and can't do anything about it.</FONT><BR><BR>Good day sir</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And a good day to you.</FONT><BR></P></SPAN> <P>[edit: removed unnecesary quotes]<SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by ganjookie on <SPAN class=date_text>05-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Bravnik wrote:</P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>FOH just happens to be full of people who don't have a life at all and play EQ/EQ2. They don't trust them.</FONT></SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Congratulations.  Both of those statements are uninformed and petty.</P> <P>But in context, if that is why FOH gets selected, wouldn't you need to meet the same requirements (no life) in order to test Coercer issues?<BR></P>

[Faarwolf]

<DIV>Gallenite has already responded to the FoH conspiracy theorists out there.  I'm really tired of seeing them bashed when they aren't doing anything wrong.</DIV>