Test Server Population

[initoci]

<DIV>Ok my name is Ravage...on Test server.<BR>I was wondering if the Test server could have some Bonus XP because the most i ever seen on when i did a /who all was probably around 74. Most players were around 18+<BR>Please help me wanna keep Testing things.<BR><BR>( This is for all the people who will argue with this post )<BR>This is concidered Feedback, for lack of players on the server.</DIV>

[Gallenite]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> initocian wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok my name is Ravage...on Test server.<BR>I was wondering if the Test server could have some Bonus XP because the most i ever seen on when i did a /who all was probably around 74. Most players were around 18+<BR>Please help me wanna keep Testing things.<BR><BR>( This is for all the people who will argue with this post )<BR>This is concidered Feedback, for lack of players on the server.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV>Funny you should mention that, friend. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's something we're considering as an option for people who want to use it on Test Server.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we did something like this, it wouldn't be required -- We understand that some people would prefer to play without this hypothetical bonus Test Server exp, so I'm sure we'd include an option to disable it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing official to announce at this point, but raising Test population, with dedicated players choosing to make it their home, continues to be a priority for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Scott</DIV>

[HanktheDwarf]

Are we talking about a double on top of the double for vitality?  Because the only problem with that is you'd get people that have no interest in testing, they just want the double XP. Maybe something a little less, like unlimited vitality.  Just something to give a little bit of incentive without drawing crowds for the wrong reasons. <div></div>

[Culann Heartsto]

<DIV>Actually the better idea is...to do what CoH did with their Test server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allow people to COPY...not MOVE..COPY their characters of choice from a live server to Test.  In other words, if I copied Culann on Kithicor to Test, there would be -2-..yes TWO copies of Culann.  One on Test Server, one on Live Server.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sure someone is going to bring up server economy and all that..is that really important in the face of testing the mechanics of new code implemented on Test?  And wouldn't you (read: SOE) rather have people who have the gear, funds and -level- to test out some of these changes, rather than putting them on Test where few if any can make adequate testing and feedback, than to push almost untested changes to live for people to berserk over?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems almost a no brainer to me.  Test is a debug server..so why not put -efficient- debugging tools..like established and well honed characters there to do just that, debug.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a parting note..in case it got confused somehow..By doing the aforementioned copy process, it would ensure you could continue to play your toon on both live and test servers without being committed or stuck to one or the other.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Valta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gallenite wrote:</P> <DIV>Nothing official to announce at this point, but raising Test population, with dedicated players choosing to make it their home, continues to be a priority for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Scott</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I understand your intention but I wonder that you havent found out, that this is not going to work (actualy not going at all). I have to agree with Culann, the test server is a test and debug server, the only reason for this one to be online is to "test things". The casual gamer have no time to raise a toon on live and on test, not to mention to raise some different characters to properly test things. You want to give your  "dedicated -testing- players" a home. Please do not forget, the number of real dedicated testers is equal to zero. The number of players on test is surely very low, but not that low (during prime time and late hours there are quite often 300+ people on), however look at the numbers who is giving feedback.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The most players who decide to make test their home over a live server is just because they see test as a hardcore server.</DIV> <DIV>1) few people mean less crafters, not enough handcrafted stuff.... you actualy have a hard time getting proper equipment... it also means there is not such an influx of droped stuff into the market... the economy is more stable and for longer time</DIV> <DIV>2) just a couple of players mean hard time finding a group, ther is still a lot of stuff you need a group for, yet on test (or a server with very low population) its hard to finish them... and now imagine raids, its quite an effort to organize a raid when there are only 300 people on the server and just 20 of them are lvl 50.</DIV> <DIV>3) a lot of people prefer to feel like "heros" in a game like this. On live you run into a group of adventurers (heros) every few seconds, on test (or low population server) you may run for hours and see noone, hear noone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are some testers who realy want to test and give feedback, but dont forget why they are testing. They are testing for the live servers, they are testing for the live game to become better, so actualy, they test to see whats going on to save their toons on live servers (so they dont get nerfed) or to improve them. Only to play on test, test your stuff and give you feedback means work, work that have to be paid for. Im quite sure 90% of all test-server players are not there to realy help you out, but because of the 3 reasons posted above (or something similar).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have 33 templar, 30 swashbuckler, 23 berserker, 23 paladin, 22 wizard and a lvl 10 brawler (soon to be monk) on the live servers, there is a TON of stuff I could test out, especialy the combat balance. The effectivness of all my chars spread more and more with every new level I attain. Its ridiculous to see what my berserker can do and my paladin can not. Im telling yo this, I would like to test things out and give as valuable feedback as possible, but Im not going to roll all my toons on test, because its just a waste of my time.</DIV>

[Nacire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valtaya wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gallenite wrote:</P> <DIV>Nothing official to announce at this point, but raising Test population, with dedicated players choosing to make it their home, continues to be a priority for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Scott</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I understand your intention but I wonder that you havent found out, that this is not going to work (actualy not going at all). I have to agree with Culann, the test server is a test and debug server, the only reason for this one to be online is to "test things". The casual gamer have no time to raise a toon on live and on test, not to mention to raise some different characters to properly test things. You want to give your  "dedicated -testing- players" a home. Please do not forget, the number of real dedicated testers is equal to zero. The number of players on test is surely very low, but not that low (during prime time and late hours there are quite often 300+ people on), however look at the numbers who is giving feedback.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The most players who decide to make test their home over a live server is just because they see test as a hardcore server.</DIV> <DIV>1) few people mean less crafters, not enough handcrafted stuff.... you actualy have a hard time getting proper equipment... it also means there is not such an influx of droped stuff into the market... the economy is more stable and for longer time</DIV> <DIV>2) just a couple of players mean hard time finding a group, ther is still a lot of stuff you need a group for, yet on test (or a server with very low population) its hard to finish them... and now imagine raids, its quite an effort to organize a raid when there are only 300 people on the server and just 20 of them are lvl 50.</DIV> <DIV>3) a lot of people prefer to feel like "heros" in a game like this. On live you run into a group of adventurers (heros) every few seconds, on test (or low population server) you may run for hours and see noone, hear noone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are some testers who realy want to test and give feedback, but dont forget why they are testing. They are testing for the live servers, they are testing for the live game to become better, so actualy, they test to see whats going on to save their toons on live servers (so they dont get nerfed) or to improve them. Only to play on test, test your stuff and give you feedback means work, work that have to be paid for. Im quite sure 90% of all test-server players are not there to realy help you out, but because of the 3 reasons posted above (or something similar).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have 33 templar, 30 swashbuckler, 23 berserker, 23 paladin, 22 wizard and a lvl 10 brawler (soon to be monk) on the live servers, there is a TON of stuff I could test out, especialy the combat balance. The effectivness of all my chars spread more and more with every new level I attain. Its ridiculous to see what my berserker can do and my paladin can not. Im telling yo this, I would like to test things out and give as valuable feedback as possible, but Im not going to roll all my toons on test, because its just a waste of my time.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Couldn't agree more, unfotunately though SOE has sofar tried to maintain test as a normal server that just happens to get patched more often, and before other servers.  This totally destroys the usefulness of a TEST environment.  Offer those playing on test now a onetime free server move (just incase some DID play for real there) and then scrap this idea of keeping it a normal server with a faster update cycle.  Either allow the character copies mentioned above, or even a step beyond, use the stuff EQ did during some of it's test programs, or SWG did with it's "blue frog" on test server.  Instaroll, level and gear up any type toon you want.  What difference does it make how long it took someone to achieve a lvl 50 toon on a TEST server?  If you need to test content for that level you need characters to do it.  Heck you could even add the ability to instaroll toons but make it cost some sort of points to get gear beyond normal crafted for that teir, those points ONLY aquired when the character participates in the testing environment by providing real feedback that is usefull.  So a tester who's put some time into it and really made a difference can when they choose to instaroll another toon deck it out with full fabled gear and master items, but the casual tester who's just trying it out can still get a toon of any class and any level but it will only have average gear.  Make all gear aquired in this system be given pre-attuned and nothing tradeable so there is still somewhat of a market there even though it would be seriously smaller, though adequate for testing purposes.

[Ironcleaver]

<font color="#99ff99">I'd love to "copy" my main over to test. The test server should be just that, a place to test; everything else is secondary.</font><font color="#99ff99"> </font><font color="#99ff99"> </font><font color="#99ff99">To get more people over to the test server I agree with:</font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99cccc">- alowing people to copy a character of thier choice over to test, the key word there is copy</font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99cccc">- install blue frogs, this helps a ton in the testing process</font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99cccc">- bonus xp is good, but the last thing I want to do on the test server is grind out levels to test new content and or anything else the devs wish to be tested. As such install a "frog" that would get xp and or levels, so people can test what you want them too test.</font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99ff99"> </font><font color="#99ff99">things that shouldnt be worried about on the test server</font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99cccc">- the marketplace, eccomony, or anything down this road. The test server is a place to test systems and sub-systems, and balance.</font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99cccc">- people leveling too fast. most of the tests requires a character of a decent or high levle anyway. if a low level system needs to be tested, im sure people wouldn't mind making a new low level character.</font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99ff99"> </font><font color="#99ff99">if the above happened, I know I'd help in every way possable.</font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99cccc"> </font><font color="#99ff99">just my 2 cents...</font> <div></div>

[Kokus]

<DIV>I would definitely be spending time on the Test server every day if they could copy my character over. I really wish I could test out these changes first hand as to how it would pertain to me, and post more useful feedback, but I really have no idea exactly how the current combat changes affect me because there appears to be noone at an equivalent to me testing... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Epite]

<span><blockquote><hr>HanktheDwarf wrote:Are we talking about a double on top of the double for vitality?  Because the only problem with that is you'd get people that have no interest in testing, they just want the double XP. Maybe something a little less, like unlimited vitality.  Just something to give a little bit of incentive without drawing crowds for the wrong reasons. <div></div><hr></blockquote> who cares? more people is more people. People that come to the server for WHATEVER reason is an increase to the population that resides on test. If they come 'just for xp' then try to peer-pressure them into being more active in testing and /bug /feedback reporting. A large population of disinterested people is a LOT more easier to pressure into participating than a completely EMPTY population of absolute zero. Dont believe me? Talk to 100 people about pepsi or coke. then try to convince them to switch. Next, talk to 100 inanimate objects (such as rocks) about pepsi or coke. Then try to get THEM to switch... it should be obvious that even if you feel its difficult to make people switch thier cola preferance, it is downright impossible accomplishing the same thing with objects that are not 'alive'... </span><div></div>

[BlargE]

<P>Long time ago in eq1, sony wiped all characters on test server without prior warning. That is the reason I will never ever play on a sony test server. The risk of seing all the work in building a char go down the drain is just too high. But, now and then i would like to test things. I read test patch notes that raises questions, but I have no way of getting answers. It would be nice if I could just copy my characters from real servers to test server, and spend an hour or two testing things, and then go back to the real server. Next time I want to test something, I want a new copy from real servers, so that I always test with "my" chars, not some unreal boosted chars in an unreal environment. Seems to me the best way to solve this would be a web page for character transfers, like the eq1 legends server Stormhammer had. Just enter char name, server name, and within 20 minutes you char would be copied to test server. The copy could be temporary, deleted within 2h or 24h or whatever, doesnt matter, since its only for test anyway.</P> <P> </P> <P>Eiwyn, completed 1330 quests</P>

[KatarinaMcComas]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valtaya wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) just a couple of players mean hard time finding a group, ther is still a lot of stuff you need a group for, yet on test (or a server with very low population) its hard to finish them... and now imagine raids, its quite an effort to organize a raid when there are only 300 people on the server and just 20 of them are lvl 50.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, there are 3 lvl 50's on Test, thats it.  There are ony about 6 or so level 47-49 coming up the ranks too.  So as for raiding Epic level 50 content, thats not gonna happen anytime soon, not for weeks or longer.  Most of the 50's and the lvl 47-49 are in different guilds with no cross guild raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dbl EXP is a good start.  Some sort of /testbuff system might also help (oh simmer down people, its not your server, its SOE's, if testbuff is a solution I would hope they use it to help fine tune the game).</DIV>

[WAPCE]

I too would regularly test content and mechanics changes and report feedback (as I do for so many software projects), if given the chance to copy my character. Feel free to let us know when we'll have the option to do so. More people = more better. [/Strong Bad]

[Jojo-the-Yumcov]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV> a main reason SOE wants permenant testers is because tradeskills DO need testing also.there has been bugs where woodworkers were crafting totems and selling them for 500pp a peice and sheilds for 1500pp a peice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> as for the wipe stuff.i was there for the one and only wipe.SOE saw how many left after the wipe and most agreed it is a bad thing and will probally never do it again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> as for the reasons most people play on the test server is: alot are hard core raiders (leveling on a test enviorment makes you a better player so just randomly plugged players useally makes for a good group/raid with whoever you plug in.problem is that it takes time to build people up because of the harsh surroundings).</DIV> <DIV>most who play on test don't like griefers/beggar [Removed for Content] and the enviroment keeps those away.generally everyone gets along with everyone so there is cross guild raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> the problem is the test server is alot harder to level on than any other server.there is no economy and hardly anyone in your level range to group with.so alot of exp is solo.the double exp to me seems like a good idea and a charter transfer seems good to.the charter copy seems like a BAD idea because even though it is a test server they would only test half the content and it is still the home server for paying customers and we are very picky about who is on it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> a test server A-hole and pervert to the 256th power. Aenal the bum under the covers</DIV>

[Mig]

The test server should be a TEST server, not a low population server!I only see two kinds of people on test. 1. People who want a really low, low, population to play with and not be bothered with other players. 2. People who are trying to figure out exploits with each new patch. If I was able to copy my character over, I'd proabbly test every line item of each patch, because I have a vested interest in the health of the production servers. Here's a thought, save the data on test, enable copy move of characters from production to test for 1 week, or one month. If it doesn't work out, wipe and reload.It's amazing to me you guys want people to test, but are making it a pain for us to do so.

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gallenite wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we did something like this, it wouldn't be required -- We understand that some people would prefer to play without this hypothetical bonus Test Server exp, so I'm sure we'd include an option to disable it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing official to announce at this point, but raising Test population, with dedicated players choosing to make it their home, continues to be a priority for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Scott</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Scott, </P> <P> </P> <P>When are you going to get it?  TEST is not the place for people to receive the "total game experience."  Things there should be "required" with no regard to the immersion of the story line.  Test doesn't exist for a player's pleasure.  It is not a server that should have a community.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Test is a place for test plans.  It is a place to take patch notes and check them off line by line.  And until you get that, you are going to continue to have one bug-ridden patch after another - just like you have for the last 7. </P> <P> </P> <P>If you want population, COPY.  If players want to "enjoy the experience of Everquest II" then they don't belong on TEST.<BR></P>

[ag]

<blockquote><hr>Gallenite wrote:<DIV>Funny you should mention that, friend. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That's something we're considering as an option for people who want to use it on Test Server. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we did something like this, it wouldn't be required -- We understand that some people would prefer to play without this hypothetical bonus Test Server exp, so I'm sure we'd include an option to disable it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing official to announce at this point, but raising Test population, with dedicated players choosing to make it their home, continues to be a priority for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Scott</DIV><hr></blockquote>As has been suggested since release, allow players to copy (not move) their existing characters to the test server once per week. (or just once ever, or some other reasonable interval)Or put back the /betabuff command, either way is fine.Voila! Problem solved. I know I would test on the test server if I could do this, but there's not a chance in Brell I would ever level up "normally" to 50 on the test server.

[Tstorm]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gallenite wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> initocian wrote: <div>Ok my name is Ravage...on Test server.I was wondering if the Test server could have some Bonus XP because the most i ever seen on when i did a /who all was probably around 74. Most players were around 18+Please help me wanna keep Testing things.( This is for all the people who will argue with this post )This is concidered Feedback, for lack of players on the server.</div> <hr> </blockquote></div> <div>Funny you should mention that, friend. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's something we're considering as an option for people who want to use it on Test Server.   </div> <div> </div> <div>If we did something like this, it wouldn't be required -- We understand that some people would prefer to play without this hypothetical bonus Test Server exp, so I'm sure we'd include an option to disable it.</div> <div> </div> <div>Nothing official to announce at this point, but raising Test population, with dedicated players choosing to make it their home, continues to be a priority for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>- Scott</div><hr></blockquote>Interesting.  I setup my Test Server client copy not long after it became available, but I have yet to create a character.  I enjoy fiddling with new things so playing on Test Server is right up my alley, but the thing is, I have friends on the "regular" servers so Test Server isn't/can't be my main server. The requests to give Test Server players free levels, equipment, or even copy their "main" character from the live servers isn't new and has been present in EQ and SWG as well.  The regular Test Server community hates these ideas because it brings ... a different kind of person to the Test Server in hoards and destabilizes the community. With or without an experience boost for Test Server, I still plan to play on Test Server at some point.  An experience boost certainly is appealing though as you still have to earn your items and experience -- it's just a bit faster.  Particularly with the first 20-25 levels or so, I'd love to move faster through those and get to things that are a touch more challenging and diverse.  I suspect getting more "legitimate" testers into the mid to higher levels would be appealing for SOE as well to match the content being added that needs lots of eyes to properly test. </span><div></div>

[Evilshade]

<DIV>Is there still a way to sig up for the test server??</DIV>

[Shunidar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gallenite wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Funny you should mention that, friend. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's something we're considering as an option for people who want to use it on Test Server.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we did something like this, it wouldn't be required -- We understand that some people would prefer to play without this hypothetical bonus Test Server exp, so I'm sure we'd include an option to disable it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing official to announce at this point, but raising Test population, with dedicated players choosing to make it their home, continues to be a priority for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Scott</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think people would be more interested in playing on test as a permanent home if they felt that the dev's cared for test, its economy, and balance like they did live servers.  As it stands, you wouldn't beleive how skewed the economy is.  I'm afraid that if you are proposing shortening the level curve will make it a completely different game than EQ2.  Those comming will be more interested in free levels, free plats and EQ2 *easy mode* than working in a test environment.  My suggestion would be to try and foster a working economy and make a game that looks more like EQ2 on live servers.  Sometimes I feel like my $15 on test is less important than someone who pays $15 a month on live.  I think that your most productive players are ones that are interested in working hard and showing off thier toons.  Why would you do that if there is a "giveaway" feeling on test?</DIV> <P>Also, this may sound like a lot of work, but why not have a seprate server for people to copy thier characters to so they can test stuff out ahead of time?</P><p>Message Edited by Shunidar on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:52 AM</span>

[Evilshade]

Is there still a way to get signed up for the test server and such, i am intrested in doing Test server since I have more than 8hrs a game play a day and would dedicate time to testing.

[bcbroom]

<P>Call me crazy, but I think permenant double xp would be a bad idea. It throws too many game elements out of whack, such as appropriate xp for small groups, solo, the new double encouters, etc.</P> <P>suggestions</P> <UL> <LI>accelerated vitality regen (I think fixed at 100% could lead to missed issues with vitality)</LI> <LI>more or less random accelerated xp times, especially after major changes **cough** combat changes **cough**</LI></UL> <P> </P>

[Ibis]

the problem is anyone establishing a permanent home on a test server. copies and server wipes and you'll have real testing.  I'm sure there are drawbacks, but compared to non-existant testing on a test server...how can it not be worth it? allow only limited actions, specific testing, etc.  Make it so you cant zone out of the local area your char movelogged from.  Then you movelog, go test within a 5 zone radius, and come back.  Everyone logging in can /claim to see a list of changed items they might want to use for testing as well as any supplies.  Remove armor wear upon death, falling damage, etc. unless those are being tested.  allow people to temporarily lower their level, but not to raise it. establish a 5 death permadeath rule and a movelog delay from live (dont die a lot and expect to keep getting another pass at experimentation).  hell enforce that on entire groups. 1 person dies 5 times, anyone in his group gets kicked and their characters deleted until the movelog delay is up. testers experiment less with danger and risk b/c they have an interest in their test char, copies and free levels wouldonly exploit a persistent server and ruin the enjoyment of players by allowing them to experience advanced areas of the game when they couldnt on live, removing danger and the such since they dont care about these chars.  If you only allow movelogging from areas that a player already has access to and like, give red mobs death touch as one sloppy method, then folks wouldnt be running around training or the such in dangerous zones beyond their ability. or keep it as a persistent server and get gripes from both sides of several fences and a lack of concentrated testing, especially among the high end. <div></div>

[Veyrun]

Here's the problem with copying characters: Raid mobs always hit the test server a few days before they go live.  This means that raiding guilds would just have their main force copy their characters to test in order to test the encounter.  This would offer a no risk, no reward way of testing the encounter and getting everything down perfectly for the guild to kill the mob the day the update goes live. <div></div>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Veyrun wrote:<BR>Here's the problem with copying characters:<BR>Raid mobs always hit the test server a few days before they go live.  This means that raiding guilds would just have their main force copy their characters to test in order to test the encounter.  This would offer a no risk, no reward way of testing the encounter and getting everything down perfectly for the guild to kill the mob the day the update goes live.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>As opposed to the current method of just not testing the raid mob?  I think that "risk" would be worth it.  I'd rather some guild jump on test and 'get a leg up' than the current system that basically causes every high-level raid mob to be broekn with every single patch - causing exp debt and frustration for guilds on live servers.  Allow me to illustrate from the 4/28 patch notes:</P> <P> </P> <P><EM>- Some epic encounters were using their special events or abilities more frequently than they were meant to. This includes King Zalak, Solusek's Fist, Meeting of Minds, and Lord Nagalik. These events should now be working properly.</EM> </P> <DIV>How may days after LU#7 did it take for SOE to realize that the update broke several 50++ raid encounters?  Wouldn't it make more sense to actually have the capability to test these things BEFORE they make it live for a week?</DIV>

[Ibis]

<div></div>double post <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 AM</span>

[Ibis]

yea b/c thats so hard to prevent. you could: 1) make the mob unattackable. the code exists. 2) make the mob super-hard, give it summoning and a huge aggro range. 3) the mob expires your 5 death limit on contact and kicks you off the server unless a developer disables the function for specific testing of the script. 4) dont spawn the mob, have developers do it on-command for specific testing.  likewise don't allow physical entrance to instanced zones housing epic mobs.  developers could summon you into the zone when needed. thanks for pointing out the absolute easiest thing to avoid. there are actually more important side effects to copying characters than raids.   I'd say more than 50% of the EQ2 population hasn't even attended a raid yet. <div></div>

[Havann]

<P>You are kidding me right, a raiding guild would copy to test just to get the strats down a few days earlier. </P> <P>You have no clue, the reason raiding guilds want to copy to test, are to test encounters and changes that effect all aspects of raiding in EQ2. When they change the way combat works, making encounters easier, more balanced, ect. </P> <P>The King Zalak bug would of never made it to live if people were able to copy and test that Epic.</P> <P>If people are going to crush the idea of coping charactors because they are afraid people will learn the new quests or encoutners before live. That is just plain silly. Who cares if people do that. In the end SoE wants good players testing the content before it goes to the mass's. If i get to see a new epic 4 days before all the live servers. So be it. If i'm providing good feedback, so that the changes don't mess up live servers. Then I'm doing what they want. Testing, and reporting. I know that if my guild was to copy to test, and mess with the changes, we'd suggest alot of them get harder.</P>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shunidar wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>I think people would be more interested in playing on test as a permanent home if they felt that the dev's cared for test, its economy, and balance like they did live servers.  As it stands, you wouldn't beleive how skewed the economy is.  I'm afraid that if you are proposing shortening the level curve will make it a completely different game than EQ2.  Those comming will be more interested in free levels, free plats and EQ2 *easy mode* than working in a test environment.  My suggestion would be to try and foster a working economy and make a game that looks more like EQ2 on live servers.  Sometimes I feel like my $15 on test is less important than someone who pays $15 a month on live.  I think that your most productive players are ones that are interested in working hard and showing off thier toons.  Why would you do that if there is a "giveaway" feeling on test?</DIV> <P>Also, this may sound like a lot of work, but why not have a seprate server for people to copy thier characters to so they can test stuff out ahead of time?</P> <P>Message Edited by Shunidar on <SPAN class=date_text>05-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:52 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>huh? you want test server's economy and level curve to be balanced and carefully looked after like a live server, and then you want to make a 'separate server' for actual testing?</P> <P>isn't that 'separate server for testing' what test server is supposed to be?</P> <P>sounds like what you really want is your own personal low population hangout (ie: current test server).</P> <P>SoE already messed up the test server by making it have any semblance of a normal server, changing it into a real test server (with instant buffs, character copies) now would anger hundreds of players play on test currently and have gotten used to it essentially being a 'special rules' server. </P> <P>In my opinion, there is no reason for an actual test server to have a 'population'. Want to get people to copy and actually do stuff on test? give them incentives for their character on live. Make each line item on a patch a goal.  You complete that goal by testing that line item, for each you complete your account receives a certain number of test points. Test points can be used on live server to purchase non-gameplay altering things like; special titles, room trophies, ceremonial armor/weapons, special armor colors, special hair colors, fluff spells and so on.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Evilshade]

Are you coming back to the game Eldarn or just posting Sob's are waiting for ya

[Evadne]

<div></div>You know, the copy thing has been argued to death. It's a rotten idea.  Clearly, yammering on about it in response to the dev's courteous reply, where he states they want to attract players to make a permanent home on test, is just an example of why they don't respond to it.  Copies won't get more tested, they will get different things feedbacked.  Testing is best done in a controlled environment.  Guess what there are copies on Test. Two whole guilds.  Testing is just that, a platform. It doesn't say,"Perfect Code before Launch" server.  Because there NEVER will be enough testing of the exact things to ensure no bugs ever make it live. Ever.  But, the process works best in a controlled, reliable environment.  Having to wade through 3 thousand of the same rants about how gimped scouts are, and "I can't play this game anymore if this goes Live...and if you don't fix my artisan class so I can make money rants in the testing channel would NOT help. Does Test need more players?  Yes.  Try to be grateful he replied to the OP.  Instead of insisting you in your infinate experience know exactly what to do to make the testing better, the game better, and their jobs better. ~Eva <div></div><p>Message Edited by Evadne on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:46 AM</span>

[Ibis]

I agree in-full that people shouldn't be testing without risk.  That is why if copies are allowed I'd want it to be so localized and specific.  If you want to test something, you can.  You can not simply go around experimenting with danger at no risk.  It does ruin the game.  I played diablo and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] was it a fun game.  then I got a trainer and thought, "hey, I'll tweak my char a little, its fun".  well i never stopped adjusting until I had items and abilities that the game wasnt designed to withstand. there was zero risk, and thus the game was no longer fun.  that cannot be allowed to happen with the use of a copy capable test server. <div></div>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gallenite wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> initocian wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok my name is Ravage...on Test server.<BR>I was wondering if the Test server could have some Bonus XP because the most i ever seen on when i did a /who all was probably around 74. Most players were around 18+<BR>Please help me wanna keep Testing things.<BR><BR>( This is for all the people who will argue with this post )<BR>This is concidered Feedback, for lack of players on the server.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV>Funny you should mention that, friend. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's something we're considering as an option for people who want to use it on Test Server.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we did something like this, it wouldn't be required -- We understand that some people would prefer to play without this hypothetical bonus Test Server exp, so I'm sure we'd include an option to disable it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing official to announce at this point,<STRONG><EM><U> but raising Test population, with dedicated players</U></EM></STRONG> choosing to make it their home, continues to be a priority for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Scott</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>One work, COPY.<BR>

[Ellya]

I moved several of my Live characters over to test when that option was offered a few months ago. I have regreted it since for a few reasons. <ol> <li>It is usually impossible to find groups. All my characters are high teens/low tweenties in level and they will probably stay in that range. Everynight I go out into Antonica or TS to find maybe 3 or 4 people none of whom wish to group for whatever reason. Most are resource gathering. which leads to point 2.</li> <li>You will find the majority of people in tradeskill instances but you can not find lower common end good on a broker. There are people crafting ( more people crafting than adventuring) but try to find bags, or Apps, or food or weapons, armor. You cant.  </li> <li>The "click" group. Test server seems to have a secret society that the newcomer isnt welcome to. There are a 1 or 2 guilds that absolutely run the server and they would probably complain the loudest about any program that would incourage more people to play on test, because they now have the run of the place . It is indeed seen as their personal server. You'll see a lot of people talk about the maturity and helpfulness of Test players, but this only seems to apply to those in the "click". </li> </ol> Suggestions- <ol> <li>/testbuff. As I stated above it is hard for  those who start out fresh from low levels to gain high enough level  to even test any mid to high level changes and with the combat rewrite in process this kind of testing is very much needed. With a /testbuff more people could jump in a give feedback instead of just relying on the few "click" people/</li> <li>/testbuff should include spell,combat art upgrades, armor and weapons suitable for the level buffed to.</li> <li>Maybe make the /testbuff effects/benefits NORENT in some regard. For example you create or have a character already and testing is needed in a certain area that requires level 40 to particapate. You first must remove your current gear/inventory and bank it. The you issue the /testbuff 40 command.  Your character is buffed to lvl 40 with equipment and spells/arts supplied but its all Temporary and disappears when you log out at which point you go back to your original state and level.</li> </ol> <div></div>

[Naughtesn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seeko wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Scott, </P> <P> </P> <P>When are you going to get it?  TEST is not the place for people to receive the "total game experience."  Things there should be "required" with no regard to the immersion of the story line.  Test doesn't exist for a player's pleasure.  It is not a server that should have a community.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Test is a place for test plans.  It is a place to take patch notes and check them off line by line.  And until you get that, you are going to continue to have one bug-ridden patch after another - just like you have for the last 7. </P> <P> </P> <P>If you want population, COPY.  If players want to "enjoy the experience of Everquest II" then they don't belong on TEST.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I couldn't have said it better myself, but in the test server community's defense, I do believe many of the bugs pushed to live WERE reported and not fixed.  So combine your comment with a rededication to fixing all reported bugs before pushing to live and I think you have it.  As an aside, I think a viable test server community and copied toons on test are not mutually exclusive.<BR>

[Uba]

<DIV>It's unfortunate you were 1-starred for that comment.  You have a valid point. </DIV>

[Rambling Diatri]

Guess I'll jump in as a minority here, seeing as I play on test. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test population is growing and will continue to do so.  I played on EQ's test server for years. Six months after release our population was about as big as EQ 2's is now. One year after release our primetime population was floating between 600-1000 depending on what day of the week it was. One big difference between 1 and 2 at this point,  EQ 2 has more guilds. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Which brings us to high level testing. Raid testing and such is not far off at all. As far as I can tell there are 4 decent size guilds of note. I'm a member of one of them. In the last few days alone I have partied with members of all the other big guilds. Doing such things as Access quests, Heritage quests and the like. And to be honest, the median level of testers is jumping quickly because we are very quietly cooperating with each other every chance we get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> On the subject of changing experience on test... BAD IDEA!  Test needs to be an engine identical to the live versions plus the latest batch of things being tested. Otherwise we aren't testing. If you double exp gain then you double the rate people level, but unfortunately there skills don't go up twice as fast. You may have the level needed to wield your nifty new sword, but unfortunately your slashing skill is dwarfed because you had to swing it so many fewer times. This effect goes the entire way through the system, ie spell casting, defensive skills, and even tradeskills. Wouldn't it be great fun testing those tier five recipes with an artisan that has skills on the equipment equal to level a 25, or running that raid with a bunch of 50's that have combat skills better matched to a level 30. To do anything  to make this not a problem would only create a Power Gamers dream server where nothing ever got /bugged cause none of the testers would have room enough to move.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> And in closing, about blaiming testers for bugs going live. It happens, we can't stop it. In many cases, nobody did that particular combine or what not. But there are other cases.  Lets jump back to the massive DX bug that hit right after Kunark released. At that time tests population was somewhere between 600 and 1000 people primetime. And we /bugged it like mad with every detail and file they wanted. But they just couldn't find the bug with one server of population. Sometimes it 1 well described report to nail a bug. Sometimes it takes another 2000 clueless ones to find the pattern that leads to the answer. So relax and don't think its those lazy testers, some bugs are easier to nail than others. And perhaps everytime you yell about that bug that snuck in and annoyed you,  you should also silently be happy bout the other 50  we helped them catch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                   Just my thoughts on the subject,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                       Rambling Diatribe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Omnikain]

<DIV>I would most certainly help test content if I could copy my character over there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not playing the same class back to 36 again to test content though.  Nope.</DIV>

[Daffid011]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Seeko wrote:<p>When are you going to get it?  TEST is not the place for people to receive the "total game experience."  Things there should be "required" with no regard to the immersion of the story line.  Test doesn't exist for a player's pleasure.  It is not a server that should have a community. </p><p>Test is a place for test plans. <font color="#ff0000"><b> It is a place to take patch notes and check them off line by line</b></font><font color="#ff0000">.</font>  And until you get that, you are going to continue to have one bug-ridden patch after another - just like you have for the last 7. </p><p>If you want population, COPY.  If players want to "enjoy the experience of Everquest II" then they don't belong on TEST.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>Do you even know how many bugs occur that are not listed in the patch notes?  It isn't as easy as just poping in, traveserings down a well defined check list from the patch notes and then shipping the patch off.  You have no idea how many things get broken that aren't listed in the notes or even remotley associated with your check list, but they do.   Most bugs, dupes and exploites we find are caught from playing the game just like any other player on a production server would.Perhaps you should come on by and check test out so you can have some experience before you start offering solutions. However, I just don't care enough about this company anymore to give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</span><div></div>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naughtesnec wrote:<BR> I couldn't have said it better myself, but in the test server community's defense, I do believe many of the bugs pushed to live WERE reported and not fixed.  So combine your comment with a rededication to fixing all reported bugs before pushing to live and I think you have it.  As an aside, I think a viable test server community and copied toons on test are not mutually exclusive.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree.  The feedback loop from test to the Devs is also horribly broken, but that is another issue and one that I have harped on in numerous posts on other threads.  EQ2 patches are marketing driven, not development driven and that is a fundamental flaw.  A marketing plan said that Frogloks must go live today.  Therefore LU#8 shipped with the guild component broken.  A dev even posted that it was broken and there will be a hotfix tomorrow to fix the broken parts.  So there are two distinct and mutually exclusive issues here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Test server does not exist as a testing environment in its current form.  It isn't the proper place for "character development" and there are never any controlled-environment tests of  line-item patch notes.  But even if it did and there were it wouldn't much matter because:</LI> <LI>The devs do not react or respond to the feedback of testers to the exclusion of not shipping a patch until it is ready.  Regardless of the bugs, a patch ships when the calendar says ship it.</LI></OL> <P> </P> <P>Now I know that there is a "test server community" that likes to one-star any post that threatens their private playground.  And I also know that there is a good percentage of that community that works pretty hard at testing patch notes.  What I can't understand is why they are the ones who are happy with the way things are now.  What I can't understand is why they are content with knowing that everything that happens on that server is a documented failure.  Show me one single stable, ready-to-ship Live Update that has come off of Test and I'll retract that statement.  But if you can't find to one to this point, then you must agree that it has failed.</P>

[Kreb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Veyrun wrote:<BR>Here's the problem with copying characters:<BR>Raid mobs always hit the test server a few days before they go live.  This means that raiding guilds would just have their main force copy their characters to test in order to test the encounter.  This would offer a no risk, no reward way of testing the encounter and getting everything down perfectly for the guild to kill the mob the day the update goes live.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> I find it kind of ironic that one of the big risks with being able to copy characters to the <STRONG>TEST</STRONG> server is that content might get <EM>tested.  </EM>As others have indicated, I would be very interested in seeing how the upcoming combat, spell, and priest balance changes are going to impact my character.  I am <STRONG>not</STRONG>, however, interested in releveling my Warden to 38 on a different server so I can do that testing.  In my opinion, the EQ2 Test Server needs to be treated much like the EQ1 Beta servers were treated.  Character copies, /betabuffs, developers organizing testing events for major content changes, etc.  Vendors or slash commands that allowed you to get items that are being changed for testing purposes, etc.</P> <P> You don't need to be on a special server to have a community.  That's what guilds are for.</P>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR>Do you even know how many bugs occur that are not listed in the patch notes?  It isn't as easy as just poping in, traveserings down a well defined check list from the patch notes and then shipping the patch off.  You have no idea how many things get broken that aren't listed in the notes or even remotley associated with your check list, but they do.   Most bugs, dupes and exploites we find are caught from playing the game just like any other player on a production server would.<BR><BR>Perhaps you should come on by and check test out so you can have some experience before you start offering solutions. <BR><BR><BR>However, I just don't care enough about this company anymore to give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Believe me, I know how many bugs happen as a result of changes to code.  I spent 7 years working in this industry.  I also know that what you describe is a failure of internal QA.  It is a product of poorly documented and commented code.  It is not an issue for volunteer testers although I definitely value the fact that at least SOMEONE is trying to catch these things.  My point is that there hasn't been a single patch note on a single Live Update that was true or accurate.  And that is a problem.  Patch note says:  X will now do Y.  Yet when the patch goes live, X does NOT do Y.  Why?  because either no one ever bothered to test X.  Or if they did and reported that it did not in fact do Y, no one at SOE bothered to either read the comment or fix the bug.</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh, and don't presume that because I post with my main that I don't have characters on test.  I do.  The highest is only a 26 SK though.  It took me exactly that long to realize that being on test and checking patch notes and testing for bugs was, in the current environment, a complete and utter waste of time.<BR></P>

[Sirlutt]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gallenite wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> initocian wrote: <div>Ok my name is Ravage...on Test server.I was wondering if the Test server could have some Bonus XP because the most i ever seen on when i did a /who all was probably around 74. Most players were around 18+Please help me wanna keep Testing things.( This is for all the people who will argue with this post )This is concidered Feedback, for lack of players on the server.</div> <hr> </blockquote></div> <div>Funny you should mention that, friend. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's something we're considering as an option for people who want to use it on Test Server.   </div> <div> </div> <div>If we did something like this, it wouldn't be required -- We understand that some people would prefer to play without this hypothetical bonus Test Server exp, so I'm sure we'd include an option to disable it.</div> <div> </div> <div>Nothing official to announce at this point, but raising Test population, with dedicated players choosing to make it their home, continues to be a priority for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>- Scott</div><hr></blockquote>Scott, I am hoping you've read all the replies that come before mine.  If you have you'll notice that most of them (and my reply) have one thing in common.  Were telling you to get a good testing environment we dont want to have to "work" and level on that server.  We want to help test, but we want to do it with our characters and to be able to test effectively. We want to copy our characters over and I for one think you need blue frogs like in SWG. Put in things to only allow a certain number of each level of each class on the server, say 20.  ie there can only be 20 lvl 23 paladins.  or 20 lvl 50 paladins.. anyone outside the 20 needs to be a diferent level.  Easy way to do this is to make items available and allow mentoring "up" aswell as down.  For instance my lvl 10 cleric could mentor up to a lvl 35 monk, making me 35.  Give me access to some basic lvl 35 equipment and i am all set to test.  Then i could mentor to a lvl 25 berzerker and so on.  You've got smart people they can work out how to do this, maybe my ideas suck.  Anyhow the bottom line is stop treating test like a real server, allow us to login with a char, get to the level we need to be to test and then to test.  To stop all the kiddies from rushing over to create their Uber lv 50 char and run around "pwning" everything, make us sign up to be a tester.  Make us fill out simple test reports?.. Hell i wouldnt mind spending an evening running through each tier as a ranger testing the latest stuff.  It'd make sure that you dont need to fix things like longshank 7 times. (and still not get it right).  Perhaps have a cut off at 500 "testers" and only accept a certain number for each class. This is how you create a good QA environment, which is basically what test is.  We love this game, we dont want to come on ehre and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] you out after every patch because you broke something yet again, or because that thing you said was fixed, well isnt.  Create a community of testers, not a community on test.  Let us help you make sure the bugs dont get through.</span><div></div>

[Evadne]

Sirlutts idea isn't all that terrible.  And I am the last person to advocate copies.  However, creating a sign up, a filter process for copies might not harm the community measurably. The key drawback to copies is that half of them wouldn't know how to provide feedback in complete sentances.  In other words,  testing and bug reports are more than just whining. Half of those that are left wouldn't know what to report and the last bit might or might not log in long enough to find anything.  Most people don't feel like they have enough time to play their main characters let alone spend hours or days on Test everymonth working on a patch.  Lets face it, would you have really given up two weeks of time to work on Combat Testing?  That is what it takes. More than a few hours a week.  More than a couple of days a month. If I spend 40 hours on Test in a week, and ten of you spend 4 hours, who is going to be more thorough?  Who is going to learn how and what to report?  Who is going to be there next week to follow up on the next round of changes.  The next 10 of you won't be the first ten.  So, the copies will be coming in on changes randomly. Without the forknowledge of what has been tried the previous patch.  Massive amounts of code gets tried and discarded on Test.  Day after day, tweek this, try that, curse at this...Random copies will come in bugging and reporting what the rest of us know is already on the plate to be fixed.  Wasting the time and resources of the team trying to get through to the valid reports that build on the changes. Now, that being said. If you were to sign up to be a copy.  Limiting the numbers, and commiting to learning the process. You could copy over maybe once a month, help out on those rough patches where they really need thorough testing. I am not opposed to that.  If you can apply for that, give reasons why you would make a good tester and it would be worth having you on test in this fashion, I definately trust the judgement of those who would be approving those applications.  So, not a bad idea Sirlutts. ~Eva Guild Leader of Fhir Rhuen Tester since 1999 <div></div>

[Daffid011]

Good points Seeko. <div></div>

[UrkBloodA]

<P>sorry - SOE has had more than one wipe.  You would have to look no further than SWG to see it.</P> <P>SoE is steadfast in it's blind determination to keep a 'pure ideal' gimped test server.  They allowed you to transfer one way your toons to test.</P> <P>As for 0 people on test, it's not true.  There are players there, who are there every day.  The question though is why do things like guild tools get released to live with so many bugs?</P> <P>As far as I know SoE never rolled back on the sell back of heritage items for thousands of plat.  So how pure and chaste is their test server?</P> <P> </P>

[GilfalasElaandrin]

<P>Frankly SOE's big mistake was making the test server require you to level up your character on it at all.</P> <P>Why not simply follow the example of City Of Hero's and allow people an automated tool to copy their active play characters to the server and let them PLAY? That way you do not have to spend your entire game time on test leveling up a character in order to see how things will affect your character AND if you want people to test hot issues you will find a TON more able to do s and more will be WILLING TO since they can copy over their play character that they are familiar with. </P> <P>The entire concept of the TEST server being a regular PLAY environment as the ONLY way to test things is what severely limits player input into it. </P>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krebbs wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Veyrun wrote:<BR>Here's the problem with copying characters:<BR>Raid mobs always hit the test server a few days before they go live.  This means that raiding guilds would just have their main force copy their characters to test in order to test the encounter.  This would offer a no risk, no reward way of testing the encounter and getting everything down perfectly for the guild to kill the mob the day the update goes live.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> I find it kind of ironic that one of the big risks with being able to copy characters to the <STRONG>TEST</STRONG> server is that content might get <EM>tested.  </EM>As others have indicated, I would be very interested in seeing how the upcoming combat, spell, and priest balance changes are going to impact my character.  I am <STRONG>not</STRONG>, however, interested in releveling my Warden to 38 on a different server so I can do that testing.  In my opinion, the EQ2 Test Server needs to be treated much like the EQ1 Beta servers were treated.  Character copies, /betabuffs, developers organizing testing events for major content changes, etc.  Vendors or slash commands that allowed you to get items that are being changed for testing purposes, etc.</P> <P> You don't need to be on a special server to have a community.  That's what guilds are for.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yea, I would of loved to see the thousands of posts from people who had copied characters over and experienced teh first round of combat changes.  Hell myself and my guild pretty much all play everyday.  And most of us said that we would of quit the game (within the guild) if the changes went live like that (we didn't post it though, we just provided feedback).  Of course, the second round fixed alot of the problems we had all talked and posted about.</P> <P>The honest truth is that the devs would lose touch with their testing player base by allowing copies.  This puts it on a lot more formal level.  They'd hear alot more from teh constant whiners.  People would do more and more complaining about the problems then providing constructive feedback.  </P> <P>Yea "some" good testers might come from copying.  But with that a loss of alot of great testers who have worked hard on test all this time.  In the end, the quality of testing would honestly go down.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Eelyen on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:16 PM</span>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GilfalasElaandrin wrote:<BR> <P>The entire concept of the TEST server being a regular PLAY environment as the ONLY way to test things is what severely limits player input into it. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Exactly.  I see all these posts about "test community" and "risk vs reward" and such but the truth of the matter is that on TEST</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>RISK - should not exist</DIV> <DIV>REWARD - should not exist</DIV> <DIV>COMMUNITY - should not be a factor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In order for it to function properly, TEST should be a relatively temporary environment that is populated by the appropriate class of tester characters from LIVE at the appropriate times.  Combat revamps notwithstanding, if we are working on Carpenters today, we should take a group of Carpenters from live and give them a list of changes to test.  Give them unlimited resources from the wholesaler and give them a list of things to do.  Once those things are completed, feedback is compiled, and the notes are verified; that's it.  No more testers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead we're trying to create an "alternate universe" where a full-fledged community can form in an extremely unstable environment and hope that this small, underleveled group can perform and test without having the load or playerbase to come close to simulating LIVE.</DIV>

[Eelyen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seeko wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naughtesnec wrote:<BR> I couldn't have said it better myself, but in the test server community's defense, I do believe many of the bugs pushed to live WERE reported and not fixed.  So combine your comment with a rededication to fixing all reported bugs before pushing to live and I think you have it.  As an aside, I think a viable test server community and copied toons on test are not mutually exclusive.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree.  The feedback loop from test to the Devs is also horribly broken, but that is another issue and one that I have harped on in numerous posts on other threads.  EQ2 patches are marketing driven, not development driven and that is a fundamental flaw.  A marketing plan said that Frogloks must go live today.  Therefore LU#8 shipped with the guild component broken.  A dev even posted that it was broken and there will be a hotfix tomorrow to fix the broken parts.  So there are two distinct and mutually exclusive issues here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Test server does not exist as a testing environment in its current form.  It isn't the proper place for "character development" and there are never any controlled-environment tests of  line-item patch notes.  But even if it did and there were it wouldn't much matter because:</LI> <LI>The devs do not react or respond to the feedback of testers to the exclusion of not shipping a patch until it is ready.  Regardless of the bugs, a patch ships when the calendar says ship it.</LI></OL> <P> </P> <P>Now I know that there is a "test server community" that likes to one-star any post that threatens their private playground.  And I also know that there is a good percentage of that community that works pretty hard at testing patch notes.  What I can't understand is why they are the ones who are happy with the way things are now.  What I can't understand is why they are content with knowing that everything that happens on that server is a documented failure.  Show me one single stable, ready-to-ship Live Update that has come off of Test and I'll retract that statement.  But if you can't find to one to this point, then you must agree that it has failed.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Show me 1 single game that comes out with bug free patches on any regular basis and then maybe we'll look into EQ2. <p>Message Edited by Eelyen on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:17 PM</span>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR> <BR>Show me 1 single game that comes out with bug free patches on any regular basis and then maybe we'll look into EQ2. <P>Message Edited by Eelyen on <SPAN class=date_text>05-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Because everyone else fails, failure should be the goal?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a realist.  I don't expect bug-free patches.  But the sheer voulme of  unaddressed bugs and unintended consequences in EQ2 is an issue.  The last time that I actually took the time to track it was LU#6, where 35% of the advertised "fixes" were not fixed at all and there were over 120 new bugs in quests alone that were created by the changing of mobs from group to solo or enhanced solo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While this test community might be great at finding exploits and such - they seem to fall down on teh job when it comes to the fact that a basic EL quest to kill 9 feral lashers cannot be completed when all feral lashers become bloodthirsty.  So just how effective is that testing community?  It's much akin to calling a roofer to fix a leaky roof.  He spends hours cutting the grass and the lawn is beautiful.  But at the end of the day, the roof still leaks.  Was he a great worker?  Sure!  Did the job get done?  Sadly, no.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if there were scores of tester notes telling SOE that these quests were now broken then that is a dfferent issue.  But there weren't that I can find.  So it really comes done to the simple fact that unscripted, undirected, community-driven testing is not effective at the job for which it is intended.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Seeko on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 PM</span>

[Mig]

On the subject of changing experience on test... BAD IDEA! Test needs to be an engine identical to the live versions plus the latest batch of things being tested. Otherwise we aren't testing. If you double exp gain then you double the rate people level, but unfortunately there skills don't go up twice as fast. You may have the level needed to wield your nifty new sword, but unfortunately your slashing skill is dwarfed because you had to swing it so many fewer times. This effect goes the entire way through the system, ie spell casting, defensive skills, and even tradeskills. Wouldn't it be great fun testing those tier five recipes with an artisan that has skills on the equipment equal to level a 25, or running that raid with a bunch of 50's that have combat skills better matched to a level 30. To do anything to make this not a problem would only create a Power Gamers dream server where nothing ever got /bugged cause none of the testers would have room enough to move.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------That is such a weak arguement. When the new crafting skills came out (timbercraft, apothocary, etc.) I had maxed all four of them by the second day. I brought my crushing skill up from lvl 10 to lvl 50 in about a hour. I went from 20 in fishing to 250 in one session as well. This is a total non-issue. But regardless double exp is not what we want. Copying over is.

[KatarinaMcComas]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR>On the subject of changing experience on test... BAD IDEA! Test needs to be an engine identical to the live versions plus the latest batch of things being tested. Otherwise we aren't testing. <STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc66>If you double exp gain then you double the rate people level, but unfortunately there skills don't go up twice as fast. You may have the level needed to wield your nifty new sword, but unfortunately your slashing skill is dwarfed because you had to swing it so many fewer times</FONT></STRONG>. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So far from level 1- 48 I have maxed all my combat skills and tradeskills within the first 20% of the level, never once have I dinged before my skills were max.  This wont be an issue period.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99></FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Badtidings]

<P>Enjoy playing different class combinations in a dual boxed environment. As a result, I have 14 different characters, ranging in level from 20 to 40. Obviously, I would like to know what impact changes are going to have on my Assassins, Necromancers, Defilers, Inquisitors, Warden, Fury, Beserker, Shadowknight, and Bruiser, and I would be willing to participate in testing to help point out changes that affect any or all of those classes. But to effectively know what impact a change has, I'd have to re-roll, re-level, and re-equip these folks.</P> <P>That's just not going to happen.</P> <P>Of course, I don't want to destroy anyone's economy, environment, or enjoyment. But I would like to help test. Lord knows SOE seems to need the help.</P> <P>With that in mind, I'd be perfectly content if:</P> <P>One time per week I was able to log my regular characters and execute a /copytotest command.</P> <P>When I issued that command, I would expect that:</P> <P>1. My character at it's current level with it's current gear would be copied to the Test server. </P> <P>2. A guild tag of <Copied Character> would be added to my character on Test, replacing any guild tag I have on live servers.</P> <P>3. All of the gear I transferred with was converted to No-Trade/No-Value during the copy.</P> <P>4. No money would be transferred.</P> <P>5. No bags or bank items would be transferred.</P> <P>Because I'm carrying the <Copied Character> guild tag, I would expect that any tradeskill items I produced, or any loot I obtained would be No-Trade/No-Value. I would also expect that my character would automatically be deleted in seven days (coincidentally, the same amount of time that would need to pass before I could issue the /copytotest command on a character.</P> <P>This would allow me to parse a series of events on production, then parse the same series of events on test to compare results. My comparisions would not be skewed by gear difference, combat art, special class spell selections, or spell level differences (I've been lucky enough to get some nice Master spells for my necros, for example, and such luck I'm fairly sure would be hard to enjoy again on test). It would also allow me to test new tradeskill recipes without having to level test characters all over again in artisan levels.</P> <P>In doing these things, I'm fairly confident I could be more effective at catching unintended consequences (or unintended features, if you prefer) than I would be just living on the Test server alone.</P> <P>In deferment to those who do make test their home, the <Copied Character> tag would let them know at a glance I was not a permanent fixture, and they could choose to completely ignore me on Test. Since everything I looted or produced would be No-Trade/No-Value it would be difficult for me to affect their economy in any significant way. The only thing left to worry about from my perspective would be people who viewed this as a no-consequence way to be a griefer. As far as I'm concerned, regular Test players could even have a special type of /petition available to them that would allow them to report <Copied Characters> who transferred over just to be griefers so that they could have that account's ability to use the /CopyToTest command suspended for six months or removed completely.</P> <P>In the end, I think SOE gets better test feedback, players who make Test their home get more people to group with if they so choose, and players have a chance to fully understand what the impacts of changes are before they go live.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Jojo-the-Yumcov]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV> you are more insightful than most production players bad.i give ya that. but i do wish to point out some key falsehoods with player coping.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> 1. as for the tradeskills would you tradeskill for hours on totally random combines and not just the ones in the notes? would you really even bothing wasting time on the tradeskills when you have to do the levels over again when you get back to live? most tradeskill bugs are not caught in the notes but by chance though playing when the new patch comes in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> 2.when it comes to special prodjects like combat testing or pvp (things that are very annoying) would you spend a whole week getting your butt kicked by a level 26 ^^ when your a level 40+ paladin or whatever class you play? even people who's charters are trapped here could not deal with it for a solid week pretty much.do you think someone with just a copy stay and actually get beat on 5+ hours a day in a varity of armors willingly. ( my longest day was 14 hours of parsing.about 3 hours each with all the armors and nekkid.) btw,nekkidness was greater than wearing heavy armor in that week.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the reason why so many players on test are oppsed to copies on test is because the eviroment is harsher on test than any other server.for those of us on test with 40+s and whatever,we normally have put more blood,sweat,and tears into our charters than most other players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>would it be as harse with a bigger population? no it wouldn't be.personally i don't what happens.the do the copy/wipe stuff though i know some others and myself will cancel our accounts.these would be the 6+ hour tester a day like myself. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i ask you to come to the test server and join the test channel. ( /join test ) and see why it is special to the players that are already there.i only ask that is you do decide to come for that week you be open minded and be careful with your words in the channel (the server it's self feels like one really big guild and if you come in acting like a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] most will let you have it). if you are a generally a nice person you will see that you are appected and alot will try to help in alot of way. (please no begging.it will get you [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]-pounded faster than anything)</DIV>

[Rambling Diatri]

<DIV>So what you have just pointed out is that you have a nack for gaining skill points quickly. Has nothing to do with how well your skills would develop in a double exp system.  Any player leveling in it would absolutely have to go back and max out there skills post level until they got old enough and the levels got long enough.  The idea is to make test playable,  not some tedious task involving making your character play to potential, well after you get the levels. It would be like watching those dolts in EQ run around getting slaughtered by blues because their buddies power leveled them on heavy reds making damage shields do most of the work. Not saying it wasn't fun watching their confusion as they tried to fight alone and could barely hit that nice blue mob that was mopping up the floor  with them, repeatedly. Most of them didn't play that long, funny how that worked. <P> Somewhere above somebody said they went 1-48 and maxed they're skills within first 20 percent of every level.  From about  twenty onward, that pretty much is how it works, depending on your adventuring diet, may not happen if you're a big game hunting type or spend alot of time in large groups.  But unless you got there killing mostly greens and avoiding  quest experience you're skills aren't going to be maxed yet.  Most of my toons get their combat skills maxed the first time in their late teens, but I quest alot and tend to hunt mostly in the white yellow variety when solo and the yellow to red  variety grouped, especially while under 20. Some levels almost don't exist in the pre-teen range, skill wise, based on quest reward  exp being earned. I don't think I've seen a toon of mine yet  come anywhere near maxed skills before 15, and only that early if I solo'd the whole way to there. Put this under a double exp sytem, getting half the swings or casts,  and it would be closer to mid-twenties. Unless of course you did live on mostly greens on the entire way up.</P> <P> </P> <P> Course thats just how I see it working based on how everything works now.  And of course the observation of both eq engines. I am one of those tester types. Paying close attention to all the tweaks they put in, because I, much like every other person posting here, wants to see this game get even better.</P> <P> So I say, copy away. Do it once for mass, not  reapeatedly,  thats how files go wacky and servers get wiped. After that, copy high level toons over if necessary. But leave the engine and leveling alone, otherwise we're testing a different game. The only thing that should be different is what they're considering taking live. Thats the pristine test enviroment they're after.</P></DIV>

[initoci]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Culann Heartstone wrote:<BR> <DIV>Actually the better idea is...to do what CoH did with their Test server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allow people to COPY...not MOVE..COPY their characters of choice from a live server to Test.  In other words, if I copied Culann on Kithicor to Test, there would be -2-..yes TWO copies of Culann.  One on Test Server, one on Live Server.  <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>OH GOSH  NO</DIV>

[initoci]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gallenite wrote:<BR> <DIV>Funny you should mention that, friend. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  That's something we're considering as an option for people who want to use it on Test Server.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we did something like this, it wouldn't be required -- We understand that some people would prefer to play without this hypothetical bonus Test Server exp, so I'm sure we'd include an option to disable it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing official to announce at this point, but raising Test population, with dedicated players choosing to make it their home, continues to be a priority for us. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Scott</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes That would be pretty cool, The Player Community is way better on  Test than on live servers because of the lack of players, so everyone could know one another.<BR>

[initoci]

I understand what your saying but, why would someone wanna level a charecter on Test Server when they have nothing to show for it?<BR>It doesn't get posted up on eq2player records.

[initoci]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valtaya wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>2)Now imagine raids, its quite an effort to organize a raid when there are only 300 people on the server and just 20 of them are lvl 50.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thats the key right there! How are you ganna try out raid zones with that many people so low?<BR>20 people for a raid? and this new adventure pack coming out?, who's ganna test that? the 45+ stuff has to be tested correct? I know >Nate< cant do it by himself. There are only about 15 45+'s out of those 300 people you say log in.<BR></DIV>

[initoci]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KatarinaMcComas wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Actually, there are 3 lvl 50's on Test, thats it.  There are ony about 6 or so level 47-49 coming up the ranks too.  So as for raiding Epic level 50 content, thats not gonna happen anytime soon, not for weeks or longer.  Most of the 50's and the lvl 47-49 are in different guilds with no cross guild raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dbl EXP is a good start.  Some sort of /testbuff system might also help (oh simmer down people, its not your server, its SOE's, if testbuff is a solution I would hope they use it to help fine tune the game).</DIV><BR> <HR> <BR>Ahhh i miss the old Testbuff..<BR>Ding you are now level 25</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[initoci]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bcbroom wrote:<BR> <P>Call me crazy, but I think permenant double xp would be a bad idea. It throws too many game elements out of whack, such as appropriate xp for small groups, solo, the new double encouters, etc.</P> <P>suggestions</P> <UL> <LI>accelerated vitality regen (I think fixed at 100% could lead to missed issues with vitality)</LI> <LI>more or less random accelerated xp times, especially after major changes **cough** combat changes **cough**</LI></UL> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yea, you got a good point there., but the people that posted above are saying add things to get free levels etc. that would help better, like i would make a 50 toon, a 40 toon a 30 toon a 20 toon a 10 toon and a 1 toon. And test them all out so there when someone needs help testing i log 1 on and help them.</DIV>

[Daffid011]

It takes all of about an hour or two to make a level 10 character, so what is stopping you from doing that now? <div></div>

[Sunrayn]

<P>My home for about a year on EQ1 was test server.  I missed the community that exists on test so last night my wife and I started new characters on test.  That will be our new home.</P> <P>I have read the posts from people that 'want to test' but only if they can 'copy' a character over.  One poster even said something along the line of 'I dont want to work on a character on test'</P> <P>Test is a community, it is just like any other server but with the added 'benefit' of unannounced crashes, shut downs, bugs.</P> <P>The bottom line is, if you truly want to 'test' then make a character there and level it up.  It is the same as EQ1.  The people that live on test are the ones that 'want' to test.  Everyone else just complained that they wanted to copy a character to test and 'play'.  The only time anyone from the live servers came to test was when the live servers were down.  And they came in droves, /testbuffed, and begged for better gear, plat.  They made a nuisance of themselves with idiot names and /shouts of 'hey dudes, whens live servers back up?'</P> <P>I will conclude by saying.  If you really wanted to test, why didnt you make test your home server from the start?</P>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <P>My home for about a year on EQ1 was test server.  I missed the community that exists on test so last night my wife and I started new characters on test.  That will be our new home.</P> <P>I have read the posts from people that 'want to test' but only if they can 'copy' a character over.  One poster even said something along the line of 'I dont want to work on a character on test'</P> <P>Test is a community, it is just like any other server but with the added 'benefit' of unannounced crashes, shut downs, bugs.</P> <P>The bottom line is, if you truly want to 'test' then make a character there and level it up.  It is the same as EQ1.  The people that live on test are the ones that 'want' to test.  Everyone else just complained that they wanted to copy a character to test and 'play'.  The only time anyone from the live servers came to test was when the live servers were down.  And they came in droves, /testbuffed, and begged for better gear, plat.  They made a nuisance of themselves with idiot names and /shouts of 'hey dudes, whens live servers back up?'</P> <P>I will conclude by saying.  If you really wanted to test, why didnt you make test your home server from the start?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Honestly dude, not to sound like an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], but if you want a community, make a char on a live server!  Test is meant to TEST SH*T not be a community.  It should be on of the most fluid and rapidly changing environments to play in.  That argument goes 2 ways.  As it stands, just to many friggen bugs make it to live, for whatever reason, the current testing procedures DONT WORK.  Ulitmatly this means that the *community* is a friggen failure(most likely by fault not your own).  Its time for SOE to reinvent the wheel soto speak on their test methods.</DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Honestly dude, not to sound like an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], but if you want a community, make a char on a live server!  Test is meant to TEST SH*T not be a community.  It should be on of the most fluid and rapidly changing environments to play in.  That argument goes 2 ways.  As it stands, just to many friggen bugs make it to live, for whatever reason, the current testing procedures DONT WORK.  Ulitmatly this means that the *community* is a friggen failure(most likely by fault not your own).  Its time for SOE to reinvent the wheel soto speak on their test methods.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You do realize that the people that live on test pay the same $14.99 a month that you do, dont you?  So why arent we entitled to a community feeling just like all the other servers?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The current testing procedures would work if all these people that want to 'test' would actually move to the test server and 'live' there.  Instead, they want to copy a character over and 'play' there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, if you are that willing to test things, why cant you move there, join the community and test full time instead of copying a character and testing only what will benefit you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Epite]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sunrayn wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Blackdog183 wrote: <blockquote> </blockquote> <div>Honestly dude, not to sound like an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], but if you want a community, make a char on a live server!  Test is meant to TEST SH*T not be a community.  It should be on of the most fluid and rapidly changing environments to play in.  That argument goes 2 ways.  As it stands, just to many friggen bugs make it to live, for whatever reason, the current testing procedures DONT WORK.  Ulitmatly this means that the *community* is a friggen failure(most likely by fault not your own).  Its time for SOE to reinvent the wheel soto speak on their test methods.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>You do realize that the people that live on test pay the same $14.99 a month that you do, dont you?  So why arent we entitled to a community feeling just like all the other servers?</div> <div> </div> <div>The current testing procedures would work if all these people that want to 'test' would actually move to the test server and 'live' there.  Instead, they want to copy a character over and 'play' there.</div> <div> </div> <div>Seriously, if you are that willing to test things, why cant you move there, join the community and test full time instead of copying a character and testing only what will benefit you?</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> <font size="7">BECAUSE IT IS A FREAKING *TEST* SERVER SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PLAYERBASE TO *TEST* UPCOMING CHANGES TO THE *LIVE* SERVERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE *TEST* SERVER NEEDS MORE PEOPLE. YOU ARE THE TYPE OF PERSON THAT WALKS INTO A STRIP-CLUB AND THEN COMPLAINS ABOUT THE NUDITY. </font></span><div></div>

[Evadne]

<div></div>Someone mail that guy some hugs or something. Geez. That was a freakout moment wasn't it? Test=community has been supported by SoE for 6 years. Stop beating a dead horse of an idea. Test successfully tests far far more than you can imagine. I realize with such a need to express yourself in giant text as if to drive the point home somehow greater than a decent vocabulary could accomplish, this might be beyond your capacity to comprehend.  Test EQ1 was just given permanent double xp.  I imagine EQ2 is not far behind.  The community needs to grow.  There is a great deal of fun to be had on Test.  Not for the linguistically impaired though.  ~Eva <div></div><p>Message Edited by Evadne on <span class=date_text>05-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:07 PM</span>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evadne wrote:<BR> Test=community has been supported by SoE for 6 years. Stop beating a dead horse of an idea.<BR><BR>Test successfully tests far far more than you can ~Eva<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes/  "test=community has been supported by SoE for 6 years" and ya know what?  For that same amount of time, test=releasing one buggy patch after another for about 6 years.  That's what you and SOE are both missing.  You and they may WANT a nice little test community but your (and their) priorites are skewed in the matter.  Now if SOE were consistently releasing good patches. it would be one thing but let's just look at LU#8 for examples:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Templars and Inquisitors can't even log in after the patch</LI> <LI>Win 98/ME users can't even log in after the patch</LI></OL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty major flaws that got missed by the "test community" wouldn't you say?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Shimmering Star Breastplate was WAY over-powered.</LI> <LI>Combat auto-facing was broken (how did you miss that!?!)</LI> <LI>Half of the new guild UI functionality didn't even work after the patch (and this was a major focus of the Live Update bu thte bugs are just too numerous to list here)</LI> <LI>In-game mail was broken</LI> <LI>New adventure tickets for groups were broken</LI> <LI>Resizing a chat window caused the game to crash</LI> <LI>SOW cause the ZONE to crash</LI></OL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are some pretty glaring bugs that the "test community" missed no?  In fact, it appears that the "test community" is so busy trying to level and sing kumbaya that they didn't really test ANY of the update notes.  So instead of harping about what SOE "supports and encourages" why not just admit the truth?  The "we want a community on test" philosophy is flawed and will never work.  Instead of trumpeting how great the "community" on test is, why not decide to trumpet how great test goes through patches and finds bugs?  That's a much more worthy goal.  But instead. the few who play there (not test mind you, play) are more worried about protecting the playground than doing the job it seems.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Community" on test?  In the immortal words of Dr. Phil, "How's that working out for ya so far?"  Looking at the list of issues with just this one Live Update - which isn't special, in fact it's been par for the course for 6 years -  I'd have to say "Not so good."</DIV>

[Ibis]

I have no conflict with most of what you said except, the BP was "WAY" over-powered?! lol...its altered state was inferior to its original state, and when they reverted it back they nerfed the original state.  reflect owns hardcore. anyway.  I'm not going to assume how/why these bugs made it to live, but I do feel that the current way test is handled doesnt test well enough. <div></div>

[Evadne]

Except that we didn't miss any of it.  We have a separate method of communication. Stop assuming because something makes it live it didn't get tested or reported. You are missing the point.  Stuff gets through, but that doesn't mean it isnt reported. ~Eva <div></div>

[Sunrayn]

First, Epitech, lay off the snickers and mt dew. Your system cant handle all that sugar and caffeine  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seeko wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evadne wrote:<BR> Test=community has been supported by SoE for 6 years. Stop beating a dead horse of an idea.<BR><BR>Test successfully tests far far more than you can ~Eva<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes/  "test=community has been supported by SoE for 6 years" and ya know what?  For that same amount of time, test=releasing one buggy patch after another for about 6 years.  That's what you and SOE are both missing.  You and they may WANT a nice little test community but your (and their) priorites are skewed in the matter.  Now if SOE were consistently releasing good patches. it would be one thing but let's just look at LU#8 for examples:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Templars and Inquisitors can't even log in after the patch</LI> <LI>Win 98/ME users can't even log in after the patch</LI></OL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty major flaws that got missed by the "test community" wouldn't you say?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>Shimmering Star Breastplate was WAY over-powered.</LI> <LI>Combat auto-facing was broken (how did you miss that!?!)</LI> <LI>Half of the new guild UI functionality didn't even work after the patch (and this was a major focus of the Live Update bu thte bugs are just too numerous to list here)</LI> <LI>In-game mail was broken</LI> <LI>New adventure tickets for groups were broken</LI> <LI>Resizing a chat window caused the game to crash</LI> <LI>SOW cause the ZONE to crash</LI></OL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are some pretty glaring bugs that the "test community" missed no?  In fact, it appears that the "test community" is so busy trying to level and sing kumbaya that they didn't really test ANY of the update notes.  So instead of harping about what SOE "supports and encourages" why not just admit the truth?  The "we want a community on test" philosophy is flawed and will never work.  Instead of trumpeting how great the "community" on test is, why not decide to trumpet how great test goes through patches and finds bugs?  That's a much more worthy goal.  But instead. the few who play there (not test mind you, play) are more worried about protecting the playground than doing the job it seems.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Community" on test?  In the immortal words of Dr. Phil, "How's that working out for ya so far?"  Looking at the list of issues with just this one Live Update - which isn't special, in fact it's been par for the course for 6 years -  I'd have to say "Not so good."</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hmmm..ok, lets take these bugs for example.  How many of these bugs would have required you to copy your level 45, 50, 40, whatever character over to test?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This whole arguement is about copying high level characters to test, thats what people want.  It doesnt take a level 50 character to find the bugs you listed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Honestly dude, not to sound like an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], but if you want a community, make a char on a live server!  Test is meant to TEST SH*T not be a community.  It should be on of the most fluid and rapidly changing environments to play in.  That argument goes 2 ways.  As it stands, just to many friggen bugs make it to live, for whatever reason, the current testing procedures DONT WORK.  Ulitmatly this means that the *community* is a friggen failure(most likely by fault not your own).  Its time for SOE to reinvent the wheel soto speak on their test methods.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why the hell should those of us who play on Test -- and still pay out $15 a month to do so, and pay for adventure packs and expansion packs the same as everyone else -- NOT play in a community?  I play almost exclusively on Test (I do have two Live toons but honestly I never log them in), and I've played with a variety of people, and I've /bugged a zillion things, and helped people with experiments and parsing data.  If I'm going to test a new group-play zone, how am I going to do that with out a group of players to test it with?  Why should I not be in a guild, to see how that works and how it affects game play?  Do you honestly think that the act of playing on the Test server is possible <STRONG><U>without</U></STRONG> building a community?</P> <P>It IS a rapidly changing environment, and you never know when you're going to pop into a once-familiar zone to see something totally other.  And that's the risk we take, and the joy we get.  And it's true, a lot of bugs make it to Live, but trust me, that is NOT because they don't get reported.  I echo what someone else said: make a Test toon and watch the test channel for a day/night cycle (I've played both, and there are different sets of players on during both, for obvious reasons).  When Nate is on, you will not believe the number of people saying, "So, Nate, I just discovered [X] bug," or "Hey, Nate, [Y thing] just got totally nerfed, I /bugged it already but I think you should know."  I will agree that there is a lack of communication back from the devs but do not blame it on Test players just hogging a low-traffic server.</P> <P>Frankly, everyone in the game is welcome to make a character on Test.  And whenever Live is down, several hundred people jump at the opportunity.  During the last live update, a /who all on Test barely displayed anyone over level 12 before that show-100 limit kicked in.  So why don't any of those people PLAY their test characters, and make the community larger?</P> <P>I agree that we could use some more players but I'm getting decidedly offended at the idea that my $15 a month and my level 30s character are less valuable than someone elses and that I don't deserve a gameplay experience just because I play on Test.</P>

[initoci]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EtoilePB wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Honestly dude, not to sound like an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], but if you want a community, make a char on a live server!  Test is meant to TEST SH*T not be a community.  It should be on of the most fluid and rapidly changing environments to play in.  That argument goes 2 ways.  As it stands, just to many friggen bugs make it to live, for whatever reason, the current testing procedures DONT WORK.  Ulitmatly this means that the *community* is a friggen failure(most likely by fault not your own).  Its time for SOE to reinvent the wheel soto speak on their test methods.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why the hell should those of us who play on Test -- and still pay out $15 a month to do so, and pay for adventure packs and expansion packs the same as everyone else -- NOT play in a community?  I play almost exclusively on Test (I do have two Live toons but honestly I never log them in), and I've played with a variety of people, and I've /bugged a zillion things, and helped people with experiments and parsing data.  If I'm going to test a new group-play zone, how am I going to do that with out a group of players to test it with?  Why should I not be in a guild, to see how that works and how it affects game play?  Do you honestly think that the act of playing on the Test server is possible <STRONG><U>without</U></STRONG> building a community?</P> <P>It IS a rapidly changing environment, and you never know when you're going to pop into a once-familiar zone to see something totally other.  And that's the risk we take, and the joy we get.  And it's true, a lot of bugs make it to Live, but trust me, that is NOT because they don't get reported.  I echo what someone else said: make a Test toon and watch the test channel for a day/night cycle (I've played both, and there are different sets of players on during both, for obvious reasons).  When Nate is on, you will not believe the number of people saying, "So, Nate, I just discovered [X] bug," or "Hey, Nate, [Y thing] just got totally nerfed, I /bugged it already but I think you should know."  I will agree that there is a lack of communication back from the devs but do not blame it on Test players just hogging a low-traffic server.</P> <P>Frankly, everyone in the game is welcome to make a character on Test.  And whenever Live is down, several hundred people jump at the opportunity.  During the last live update, a /who all on Test barely displayed anyone over level 12 before that show-100 limit kicked in.  So why don't any of those people PLAY their test characters, and make the community larger?</P> <P>I agree that we could use some more players but I'm getting decidedly offended at the idea that my $15 a month and my level 30s character are less valuable than someone elses and that I don't deserve a gameplay experience just because I play on Test.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>wow, someone got told!

[Ellya]

<div></div><font color="#ffcc99">TEST server should be for testing ONLY. Testers should be given well defined instruction on what Exactley needs testing. If you cant handle the the crowds and competition of the live servers then maybe you should consider single player games. The people complaining the loudest about possbile changes to Test server are just scared they might lose their Low Pop/Personal Playground and have to actual join a community of players where they are not top dog. SOE needs to seriously reconsdier their Testing enviroment. You guys are being bold with new Ideas(Exchange Servers, Adv Packs etc) be bold again and create a testing server that actually encourages and requires Specific content testing. </font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Ellyana on <span class=date_text>05-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:50 PM</span>

[HanktheDwarf]

When you have 6 pages of a Tester Feedback thread complaining about a raid lockout timer, or 5 pages of a Combat Changes thread complaining that Kite shields should not be equal to Tower shields, it's a wonder why you don't see more testers posting in those threads.  Next live update I dare you guys to come on test and see just how many bugs get reported. On a side note, it's quite funny people calling us hermits or what-have you.  Yeah, named and epic mobs are not contested, but it's useless when you can't get the people you need to fight these people. Copies?  Let's go through a list of very irritating bugs that were on test that caused us all quite a headache... Combat changes:  Half the people couldn't even solo stuff, and everyone was getting whooped on Named mobs 10+ levels lower than them. Oh, and the dual bug where if you had a certain UI fault OR had a certain halberd recipe in your book, you would crash the whole zone when you logged in. /follow was broken for almost a week.  Not too bad but a bit of a pain. The No Trade thing was annoying.  A lot of people said 'screw it' and sold the quest items before they changed it back. Offline selling.  If the person wasn't online their stuff would still show up, and if you bought it, you lost your money (or you got lucky and maybe got it when the person logged back on). So tell me how many people would have logged on to their copy, gotten a little frustrated with a bug, and just gave up and didn't test anything else? I'd say there are in total of nothing in the way of benefits to playing on the test server.  Almost daily downtimes in the middle of peak hours.  Little to no equipment/spells on the broker.  The only pluses are virtually unlimited harvesting and the heritage selling (which, if you ask most people on test, all the money is almost gone anyway). <div></div>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>HanktheDwarf wrote:<BR></P> <P> Yeah, named and epic mobs are not contested, but it's useless when you can't get the people you need to fight these people.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>'Nuff said....</P> <P> </P> <P>You just nailed the reason for allowing copies.<BR></P>

[HanktheDwarf]

So they allow copies.  The people on the server now quit playing, so when there is not a live update to test, no one will be on.  So then one of these two or three little changes patch comes along and they put it on test.  Are you going to go over and test and waste a little time to make sure that tiny little patch is fine?  There have been a few of these tiny little patches that have broken stuff totally not related to what was changed.  Are you going to now waste a whole night to test everything to make sure it's still working? <div></div>

[Daffid011]

There are already 2 high level guild copied to test that: A) are top notch raid guilds with many game/server first.  B) have a history with SoE devs. Any other questions you need answering that you think you already have the answers to? <div></div>

[Evadne]

<div></div>Course there are lots of font sizes and fancy colors to choose from to help you illustrate your point that you have not yet used. ~Eva <div></div><p>Message Edited by Evadne on <span class=date_text>05-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 PM</span>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellyana wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffcc99>TEST server should be for testing ONLY. Testers should be given well defined instruction on what Exactley needs testing. If you cant handle the the crowds and competition of the live servers then maybe you should consider single player games. The people complaining the loudest about possbile changes to Test server are just scared they might lose their Low Pop/Personal Playground and have to actual join a community of players where they are not top dog.<BR>SOE needs to seriously reconsdier their Testing enviroment. You guys are being bold with new Ideas(Exchange Servers, Adv Packs etc) be bold again and create a testing server that actually encourages and requires Specific content testing.<BR></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Ellyana on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Again, that doesn't work, for reasons other people have stated.  Why?  Because we find things like suddenly, there's a concentration exploit for some class, or that the mail is cutting off, or that a zone that didn't have content added to it will start crashing.  Do any of these have a specific, predictable tie to the content that you would have us test?  No, they don't.  But they are the things that we see, and find, and report.  And I am not the first to say so in this thread or on these boards.  Because of the way EQ2 works, playing <STRONG><U>IS</U></STRONG> testing.  When SoE does something like introduce a new group or solo zone/quest series, sure, a ton of us jump on it and play it right away.  Sometimes we find bugs... usually, those new things work fine and it's a problem with something old that arises.  Would you prefer those problems not be found?  Test exists as it does because if all the problems, bugs, conflicts, and the rest were directly connected to new content, SoE could see it all and repair it all in-house.  The law of unintended consequences is rampant in all software design (as in all things, really), and it is against the unintended consequences that Testers are constantly working.  Those absolutely cannot and will not be found unless there are people around doing all the everyday things.<BR> <p>Message Edited by EtoilePB on <span class=date_text>05-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 PM</span>

[BigRedWo]

I'd be willing to put in some serious testing time on Test every week, if they allowed me to copy my characters over.  I don't feel we should be limited to one character either.  I play a Mystic, and after the haze nerf I've stopped playing him, and play a Conjurer now.  I'd like to be able to test changes that affect both characters, not just the one I have the most time invested in.

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellyana wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffcc99>TEST server should be for testing ONLY. Testers should be given well defined instruction on what Exactley needs testing. If you cant handle the the crowds and competition of the live servers then maybe you should consider single player games. The people complaining the loudest about possbile changes to Test server are just scared they might lose their Low Pop/Personal Playground and have to actual join a community of players where they are not top dog.<BR>SOE needs to seriously reconsdier their Testing enviroment. You guys are being bold with new Ideas(Exchange Servers, Adv Packs etc) be bold again and create a testing server that actually encourages and requires Specific content testing.<BR></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Ellyana on <SPAN class=date_text>05-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You cant really be this clueless.  A-n-y-b-o-d-y can come to test.  It isnt some secret server reserved for the chosen few.  If you are so hot on what the test server should be, why dont you come make a character there and make it home?  You choose to play on a live server, then complain and stomp your feet about the test server population.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's a challenge for all you that *think* they know what test server is all about.  Pack up, leave your friends, sell your characters on the new SE.  Now, replace that EQ2 icon on your desktop with the TestEQ2 icon.  Download the patches, log in, make a character and actually live there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You wont do it though will you?  Too much like work to have to start over.  Rather just copy a character and play around for a few hours.</DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigRedWood wrote:<BR>I'd be willing to put in some serious testing time on Test every week, if they allowed me to copy my characters over.  I don't feel we should be limited to one character either.  I play a Mystic, and after the haze nerf I've stopped playing him, and play a Conjurer now.  I'd like to be able to test changes that affect both characters, not just the one I have the most time invested in. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you are so willing to 'put in some serious testing time on Test every week', why not just create a character there and call it home?</P>

[BigRedWo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigRedWood wrote:<BR>I'd be willing to put in some serious testing time on Test every week, if they allowed me to copy my characters over.  I don't feel we should be limited to one character either.  I play a Mystic, and after the haze nerf I've stopped playing him, and play a Conjurer now.  I'd like to be able to test changes that affect both characters, not just the one I have the most time invested in. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you are so willing to 'put in some serious testing time on Test every week', why not just create a character there and call it home?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Because of the server population, or lack thereof.  I'm of the mentality that my vote doesn't count.  Just because I come over to add to the population, I honestly don't feel my one account is going to effect the server either way.  I also don't have the time to play on two servers daily.

[Evadne]

You don't have time to play there daily. Daily. Tha t is what it takes. Therefore you do not have time to test. Copies would be a fun "feature."  One that people say they would use to seriously "test" stuff but most would use as a painless playground to try things they could never try on live...all without the risk of shard loss.  Who cares if you lose a shard or two---you won't be back for a few days anyway.  It isn't real.  The people who do use it as a real testing ground, copies and players alike would have to deal with these other people.  CS wouldn't police this kind of behaviour either. So, testers would get real sick of it.  I play and Test on test because I like to do it. I have friends who do it.  But, I also have friends on live servers.  The copy contingent isn't a majority.  I would be just fine playing the game on live, and would have stayed there until the Test server came up that wanted a community.  So, while those of you shout about copies, and Testers being elitist and wanting our solo playground I will quietly go on doing what I do to make the game better for those who appreciate it.  You wouldn't be happy with the game anyway.  ~Eva Guild Leader of Fhir Rhuen Test <div></div>

[Ellya]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sunrayn wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Ellyana wrote: <div></div><font color="#ffcc99">TEST server should be for testing ONLY. Testers should be given well defined instruction on what Exactley needs testing. If you cant handle the the crowds and competition of the live servers then maybe you should consider single player games. The people complaining the loudest about possbile changes to Test server are just scared they might lose their Low Pop/Personal Playground and have to actual join a community of players where they are not top dog.SOE needs to seriously reconsdier their Testing enviroment. You guys are being bold with new Ideas(Exchange Servers, Adv Packs etc) be bold again and create a testing server that actually encourages and requires Specific content testing.</font> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Ellyana on <span class="date_text">05-08-2005</span> <span class="time_text">04:50 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <div>You cant really be this clueless.  A-n-y-b-o-d-y can come to test.  It isnt some secret server reserved for the chosen few.  If you are so hot on what the test server should be, why dont you come make a character there and make it home?  You choose to play on a live server, then complain and stomp your feet about the test server population.</div> <div> </div> <div>Here's a challenge for all you that *think* they know what test server is all about.  Pack up, leave your friends, sell your characters on the new SE.  Now, replace that EQ2 icon on your desktop with the TestEQ2 icon.  Download the patches, log in, make a character and actually live there.</div> <div> </div> <div>You wont do it though will you?  Too much like work to have to start over.  Rather just copy a character and play around for a few hours.</div><hr></blockquote>Dear, i have 3 full time characters on test that I have played since they allowed moves to test from the live servers. So I know what Im talking about. I see the inadequacy's of the current testing enviroment everyday. So get down off your soap box. </span><div></div>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellyana wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <FONT color=#ffcc99></FONT> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>Dear, i have 3 full time characters on test that I have played since they allowed moves to test from the live servers. So I know what Im talking about. I see the inadequacy's of the current testing enviroment everyday. So get down off your soap box. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Now, I just started a new character on test a few days ago.  I didnt have the luxury of a /movelog from a live server.  While it would have been nice to have my 25 guard/18 craftsman, my 25 amorer, my 23 chemist moved so I didnt have to start over, I am not complaining about it.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played test server in EQ1 for over a year, I still have my characters there and still play them.  I heard the same gripes, complaints and arguements there that I hear here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ1 had /testbuff, buff your character to level 25 with armor and all spells.  People still moaned it wasnt good enough.  They logged in on the days that live servers were down and stood around with stupid names begging for plat.  Now, they are doubling the exp on EQ1 test.  Guess what, its not good enough again.  There is a thread there now saying there should be more incentive to test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The entire arguement here is that people want to copy characters over to test so they can test only when it benefits them, personally.  People say 'you just want to keep your low pop server and your personal playground'  I say 'horse cookies'  Test server isnt a big secret, anyone can play here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You say test server doesnt work.  I say it does.  Its not perfect but, the dedicated ones that play on test try to make it work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellyana wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Dear, i have 3 full time characters on test that I have played since they allowed moves to test from the live servers. So I know what Im talking about. I see the inadequacy's of the current testing enviroment everyday. So get down off your soap box. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If you, too have played on Test, then why do you feel a need to be condescending to others who do also, and tell us that we are worthless?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The inadequacies of the current testing environment are twofold.  Firstly, we don't have enough dedicated testers.  It's one thing not to have to fight for resources, but it's another not to be able to get a group.  In 7 toons that have gotten off the Isle of Refuge, I've only done the orc quest once because there just aren't always the people around when I need it.  And many of my late-20s quests were done with members of my guild who were in the mid-30s and mentored down to me because there was no-one else.  I am glad they are willing to help, and I try to pay it forward, but I agree that what we really need are more dedicated players who want the Test server to be their home.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, it seems that many of our bug reports and much of our feedback goes off into the void.  It is true that patches and updates go live without having errors corrected; however, as written time and time again, this is not because we don't report them.  No, we'll never nab them all, but we get a whole hell of a lot of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problems we do NOT have on the Test server are the problems that are rife in this thread.  When we see a problem, we strive to fix it and make it better, whether the problem is a new bug in the game, or whether the problem is one within our community.  Test <STRONG>wants</STRONG> to grow and to be strong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let us assume that the following principle is true: Testing involves not only playing through new content, but also reviewing existing content, parsing before & after data, and examining how new elements work within the existing game structure to ensure that not only predictable but also unpredictable and rogue bugs and exploits can be found.  Given that, how yould <STRONG>you</STRONG> presume to fix the inadequacies of the Test environment?</DIV>

[BigRedWo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evadne wrote:<BR>You don't have time to play there daily.<BR><BR>Daily.<BR><BR>Tha t is what it takes. Therefore you do not have time to test.<BR><BR>Copies would be a fun "feature."  One that people say they would use to seriously "test" stuff but most would use as a painless playground to try things they could never try on live...all without the risk of shard loss.  Who cares if you lose a shard or two---you won't be back for a few days anyway.  It isn't real.  The people who do use it as a real testing ground, copies and players alike would have to deal with these other people.  CS wouldn't police this kind of behaviour either. So, testers would get real sick of it.  I play and Test on test because I like to do it. I have friends who do it.  But, I also have friends on live servers.  The copy contingent isn't a majority.  I would be just fine playing the game on live, and would have stayed there until the Test server came up that wanted a community.  So, while those of you shout about copies, and Testers being elitist and wanting our solo playground I will quietly go on doing what I do to make the game better for those who appreciate it.  You wouldn't be happy with the game anyway. <BR><BR>~Eva<BR>Guild Leader of Fhir Rhuen<BR>Test<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>With attitudes like this person, it's no wonder there aren't many people testing on Test.  I'm not in a hurry to help out if this supposed 'elitist' guild leader of Test doesn't want me to spend my time helping out unless I provide daily testing.  Some of us do have lives. </P> <P>I come from a software testing background, stumbled accross this thread, and offered to help if I didn't have to grind a char up in order to do it.  I take it back.  I'll stick to the live servers where I won't be looked down on because of the limited time I can provide to my community.</P>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigRedWood wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>With attitudes like this person, it's no wonder there aren't many people testing on Test.  I'm not in a hurry to help out if this supposed 'elitist' guild leader of Test doesn't want me to spend my time helping out unless I provide daily testing.  Some of us do have lives. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I come from a software testing background, stumbled accross this thread, and offered to help if I didn't have to grind a char up in order to do it.  I take it back.  I'll stick to the live servers where I won't be looked down on because of the limited time I can provide to my community.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>How exactly then do you find bugs if you dont play daily?<BR>

[BigRedWo]

<P>By testing specific content.  It's already been explained earlier in this thread.</P> <P>I apologize for offering my services.  I didn't expect to get flak from a community that is complaining about not having enough people.  I simply thought I could be of service.  Have fun, I won't be joining you on Test.  Don't bother replying to this message, I won't be coming back to this thread either.</P> <P>*Boggles at the negative attitude towards someone offering to assist.</P>

[Evadne]

He was only willing to assist if he was copied though. <div></div>

[Beghard]

<DIV>HOW do you make a chracter on the test server!?!!</DIV> <DIV>That would be cool if could <EM>copy </EM>my main hi lvl toon to test but if i cant copy i would certainly start a new character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last i heard the devs were giving turn to go to test server by server but i never found out when my server was eligable. Ied love to help any way i could!</DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beghard wrote:<BR> <DIV>HOW do you make a chracter on the test server!?!!</DIV> <DIV>That would be cool if could <EM>copy </EM>my main hi lvl toon to test but if i cant copy i would certainly start a new character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last i heard the devs were giving turn to go to test server by server but i never found out when my server was eligable. Ied love to help any way i could!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Open the Sony folder and look for Everquest2 folder.  Inside is the TestEverQuest2 .exe icon.  The path is usually C:program files/sony/everquest2.  Make a copy of the Everquest folder on your desktop, then rename it to TestEQ2 or something, then move it back into your sony folder.  (This keeps you from having to d/l patches whenever you go from live to test server.</P> <P>Go back into this new folder you created and look for the TestEverQuest icon and make a short cut to place on your desktop.  This will set the pathway to your new folder so all updates for test go where they are supposed to.</P> <P> </P>

[EtoilePirate]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beghard wrote:<BR> <DIV>HOW do you make a chracter on the test server!?!!</DIV> <DIV>That would be cool if could <EM>copy </EM>my main hi lvl toon to test but if i cant copy i would certainly start a new character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last i heard the devs were giving turn to go to test server by server but i never found out when my server was eligable. Ied love to help any way i could!</DIV> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Somewhere on these boards, "How do I create a character on Test?" is in the FAQ.  The directions are pretty simple, it just will take a little time for patching. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[HanktheDwarf]

Under the same TestServer folder there is a *.txt file that tells you exactly what to copy. On a side note:  It takes ten minutes to test the Guild UI and find all the bugs in it.  Then it takes hours to realise stuff like, "Oh, can't link stuff in chat windows anymore" or "Oh, food and drink buffs are dropping when zoning." All you people that say you would play on test server but don't want to level a new character, why didn't you /movelog?  Didn't know about it?  /feedback saying you want another one. <div></div>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR><BR>How exactly then do you find bugs if you dont play daily?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>LOL!  What a question.  So let me ask you one of my own:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hvae you ever taken the update notes for a patch, started at the top and checked everything on them, providing feedback on what was working and what wasn't?  The problem with the "test community" is that they seem to be doing everything BUT testing patches.  I mean, I see scores of posts about how you folks find all these exploits, and all of these undocumented bugs and stuff.  And then I see all these posts about how you can't get enough people together to take an epic mob.  But what I don't see is any structure.  And what I really don't see is a sense of outrage that <EM>should </EM>be present if you are doing as I said above and checking every line in every patch and reporting the scores of bugs that seem to be in every update, if SOE is just ignoring your complaints.  Either way there are only two real possibilities:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>The "test community" experiment/goal is a failed (or at best flawed) concept, or</LI> <LI>SOE is really screwing your community</LI></OL> <P> </P>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seeko wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hvae you ever taken the update notes for a patch, started at the top and checked everything on them, providing feedback on what was working and what wasn't?  The problem with the "test community" is that they seem to be doing everything BUT testing patches.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[snip]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "test community" experiment/goal is a failed (or at best flawed) concept, or SOE is really screwing your community</DIV> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Actually yes, within reason.  For example, whenever the patch notes say something like, "griffons should be going faster," I go ride griffons to see -- and have, on occasion, gotten stuck in geometry for my trouble.  If they say, "we've created a new solo zone in Nektulos for lv 25-30 characters," then I go play it.  When they introduced a new quest series appropriate to my character level, and then a month or two later a new zone, you can bet that I dropped everything else I was working on  -- leveling, heritage quests, crafting, everything -- and ran straight to that new content to play through it.  But will I take my level 30 Assassin or my level 11 Crusader and go test out changes in the Feerott?  Hell no.  That's why it's a server with (in theory) as wide a variety of characters as any Live server: so that each Tester can test things within his or her ability.  And you'd better believe I /bug things that are broken and /feedback new ideas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On top of all that, I'm going to go the broken record route and repeat what several of us have been saying: just because I go through the patch notes and try everything out (which we all do; it's kind of sad but a shiny new set of patch notes is like Christmas on Test) doesn't mean that I'll necessarily notice at first that another class has broken spells suddenly, or that the mail system isn't working, or that items linked in chat no longer actually link.  It takes a server's worth of people playing like a normal, day-to-day server to notice it all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the by, there are places in the world where only Testers and developers look, and that outrage you think we should have is kept there, where it can be constructively channelled into actually getting more problems solved.  Whether that does or doesn't work is another issue entirely, one that concerns people who actively test content and the SOE employees who are responsible for responding to testers.</DIV>

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EtoilePB wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Whether that does or doesn't work is another issue entirely, one that concerns people who actively test content and the SOE employees who are responsible for responding to testers.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That statement is both arrogant AND wrong.  In actuality, it concerns every one of the 350,000 people who pay 15 bucks per month and consistently get content that isn't properly tested and working as advertised.<BR>

[Malack]

Lots of opposition to the copy idea; to me it's a no-brainer. I'd gladly copy my char over to test <DIV>if I could. No, I won't live there... my wife and friends play on a live server. However that doesn't mean I can't spend a day or two per week playing on test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I won't do it if I have to start over though. Alot of people feel that way. Allow copies, and you'll have an abundant test population. And no, it wouldn't just be for major updates... I'd play test a couple days / week as much for a change of pace as I would out of desire to improve the game.</DIV>

[Daffid011]

<span><blockquote><hr>Malackii wrote:<div></div><div> Alot of people feel that way. Allow copies, and you'll have an abundant test population. And no, it wouldn't just be for major updates... I'd play test a couple days / week as much for a change of pace as I would out of desire to improve the game.</div><hr></blockquote>While this may seem to be an obvious and valid statement, there are misconceptions there.  One, you can't speak for volumes of people as you really don't know what they would or wouldn't do.  That aside, this model has been tried in another game and despite that you think it would increase population, it had the exact opposite effect.  It decreased overall population.  I may be wrong for EQ2, but no one has any real data to back up these claims of copies increasing not only population, but quality of patches.  It is most often just a great way to test specific things that would personally affect someones character without risk, which is what it has usually turned out to be. Thanks for listening.</span><div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seeko wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>That statement is both arrogant AND wrong.  In actuality, it concerns every one of the 350,000 people who pay 15 bucks per month and consistently get content that isn't properly tested and working as advertised.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And once again we come back to this: Any one of those 350,000 people is PERFECTLY WELCOME to come create a character on Test and join the discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it's a shame that apparently nothing I've said is getting through, because I can't repeat myself anymore.  But if you -- and by "you" I mean any individual reading this -- want things tested better and think we're no good at it, then come create a bloody character and do it yourself instead of telling us that our time and our characters and our $15+ per month is less valid than yours.  ESPECIALLY as we put our time and characters and money into trying to make YOUR experience better!</DIV><p>Message Edited by EtoilePB on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:20 AM</span>

[Ellya]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>EtoilePB wrote:<div></div> <div></div><div> ESPECIALLY as we put our time and characters and money into trying to make YOUR experience better!</div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>Oh please. Why do SOME Test server people always act like they are doing us a favor. You play on test because you want to for whatever reason( low pop/less competition, whatever) Stop acting like you're some Righteous Martyr sacrificing your time and money for the betterment of humanity.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Ellyana on <span class=date_text>05-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellyana wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Oh please. Why do SOME Test server people always act like they are doing us a favor. You play on test because you want to for whatever reason( low pop/less competition, whatever) Stop acting like you're some Righteous Martyr sacrificing your time and money for the betterment of humanity.<BR></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Ellyana on <SPAN class=date_text>05-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I absoultely and 100% enjoy Test for its own sake.  I added that last sentence -- as an edit -- because I'm sick and tired of being told that I have no place in EQ2.  Test exists for a reason besides my own enjoyment.  That I get a kick out of it is a personal side benefit.</DIV>

[otlg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EtoilePB wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><BR>And once again we come back to this: Any one of those 350,000 people is PERFECTLY WELCOME to come create a character on Test and join the discussion.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, as someone who has, and who has defended test on these boards, I don't know that agree with that statement completely.  I've been pretty seriously badgered by folks on the server basically yelling at me, telling me "Folks around here don't like this" or "folks around here don't like that", or "See if anyone every helps you on test", etc.</P> <P>In short, I've tried to contribute to test and the attitudes of <STRONG>*some*</STRONG> of the players on test are *very* seriously making me consider giving up my test character.  The holier-than-tho, elietist, BS attitudes have to stop if you want the test population to increase.</P> <P>(I *litterally* got told my first day on the Isle, on test, that no one on test would ever help me, because someone wanted to kill something, I didn't understand their request and said I wasn't interested... like I should be forced to help you on test???... As an aside I helped them, even after the verbal/textual abuse, once I understood what they were asking)</P> <P>Osiri<BR></P>

[Ellya]

<span><blockquote><hr>otlg wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> EtoilePB wrote: <div></div> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <div>And once again we come back to this: Any one of those 350,000 people is PERFECTLY WELCOME to come create a character on Test and join the discussion.</div></blockquote> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Actually, as someone who has, and who has defended test on these boards, I don't know that agree with that statement completely.  I've been pretty seriously badgered by folks on the server basically yelling at me, telling me "Folks around here don't like this" or "folks around here don't like that", or "See if anyone every helps you on test", etc.</p> <p>In short, I've tried to contribute to test and the attitudes of <strong>*some*</strong> of the players on test are *very* seriously making me consider giving up my test character.  The holier-than-tho, elietist, BS attitudes have to stop if you want the test population to increase.</p> <p>(I *litterally* got told my first day on the Isle, on test, that no one on test would ever help me, because someone wanted to kill something, I didn't understand their request and said I wasn't interested... like I should be forced to help you on test???... As an aside I helped them, even after the verbal/textual abuse, once I understood what they were asking)</p> <p>Osiri</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>quoted for truth</span><div></div>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> otlg wrote: <P>Actually, as someone who has, and who has defended test on these boards, I don't know that agree with that statement completely.  I've been pretty seriously badgered by folks on the server basically yelling at me, telling me "Folks around here don't like this" or "folks around here don't like that", or "See if anyone every helps you on test", etc.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And Test is the only server in the world that has a few people on it who think they're better than everyone else and that the whole world should bend to their whims, right?  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly, having to face that down is what kept me out of regularly playing MMOGs for years.  I can't stand being put down by the attitude that just because someone's newer to a game or to a server or to a level than one, one is less worthy and valid.  (Less experienced, maybe, but that's another thing entirely.)  And no-one at SOE can ever do anything about the mannerisms of a small percentage of individuals, regardless of how the server is constructed, managed, and understood.  I'm sorry if a minority of players are ruining your experience; for my part, once I finally got the courage to join the Test channel regularly and start talking to people, I find that they've been quite civil at a minimum, and on the whole are friendly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But that has little to nothing to do with SOE's perception of Test's function and purpose, and everything to do with population size.  If 10 people were 5% of the online population at any given moment instead of 10% of it, they'd be a much smaller group of voices and easier to ignore.  I'm sorry if there are a few [Removed for Content] who are driving players away, particularly as we need the players badly, but honestly I think that if *I* can handle it long enough to stick around for 30+ levels, it can't be that hostile an environment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the fact remains that regardless of a group of players who think they run things, things run themselves.  Anyone and everyone is still perfectly free to create a character on Test and will be welcomed by the majority of regular Testers, who frankly are hoping for some fresh blood.  Everyone being an alt of themselves gets tiring after a while you know.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Evadne]

When I spoke to Osiri about his chatter in the test channel, I was trying to be kind. I think Osiri is funny.  But, sigh, apparently someone else was less than nice. The test channel has gotten juvenile lately, and people have no patience for it.  Unfortunately, Osiris chatter grated nerves already jangled by the south park style garbage people were already sick of hearing.  Osiri was also joining the chat from another server.  *shrug*  I would love folks to come try out test.  Better have a thick skin though, you will take the heat here on this board for what you do and don't do.  It is a no win situation. <div></div>

[otlg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evadne wrote:<BR>When I spoke to Osiri about his chatter in the test channel, I was trying to be kind. I think Osiri is funny.  But, sigh, apparently someone else was less than nice.<BR><BR>The test channel has gotten juvenile lately, and people have no patience for it.  Unfortunately, Osiris chatter grated nerves already jangled by the south park style garbage people were already sick of hearing.  Osiri was also joining the chat from another server.  <BR><BR>*shrug*  I would love folks to come try out test.  Better have a thick skin though, you will take the heat here on this board for what you do and don't do.  It is a no win situation.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Eva:</P> <P>A couple of things.. enjoyed chatting last night.. was nice (sorry for going quiet, got stuck playing tour guide).  However, a few things.. last night was 1 night.  What happened to me on the island was before I even knew about the chat channel!!!</P> <P>Also, I'm not about to apologize for joining the channel from another server.   That functionality is there and my lone alt lives there (at least for now), so I don't see *anything* wrong with joining to bounce ideas off folks there, and to toss a gratz in when someone accomplishes something.  Again it's all me *trying* to be part of a group that obviously has a total disdain for any outsider.</P> <P>Regards,</P> <P>Osiri</P> <DIV>EDIT/PS:  Some things that have been directed my way on the test server are outright violations of the rules of conduct in the game, that if I cared enough to report them *should* get people banned.  I've never had anything close to the grief on test occur on my live server.. </DIV><p>Message Edited by otlg on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:37 PM</span>

[TinyTi]

I got a solution to low Test populations. Make Frogloks only on test so that people dont have to see them on every other server and people are happy with their frogloks and can test bugs at the same time! lol jk :smileyvery-happy:

[otlg]

<DIV>  discression... valour.. etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Osiri</DIV> <P>Message Edited by otlg on <SPAN class=date_text>05-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:07 PM</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>The one thing I do want to say is:  Because you all allow these people who are guildmates of yours to carry on in the fashion they do, without asking them to stop makes <STRONG>you as bad </STRONG>as them.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by otlg on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:20 PM</span>

[Daffid011]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>otlg wrote:<div></div><p>Again it's all me *trying* to be part of a group that obviously has a total disdain for any outsider.</p><hr><p></p></blockquote>Most of the people I know started after test went live and they get along just fine.The rest are a collection of people who played on different servers to start with.I see new people join all the time and I see them make friends and join the community just fine.I've seen server transfers become some of the most active members of the community.Occassionaly I see someone new join and have a clash of personalities.I must say that your blanket statement trying to paint test as some fiendish hoard is just a tad offbase when in fact there are very few instances of new people getting a bad start.  You just happen to be one of the small minority that has been involved in that.Test servers "code of conduct" is no different than any other servers, except that when you get involved in drama, the entire server sees it.</span><div></div>

[Heattanu]

<P>There seems to be a lot of concern that any sort of incentive will attract "the wrong sort of people" - lazy, ignorant, selfish, immature. Well, it will. But it will also atract the right sort of people -helpful, insightful, contribution new members of the testing community. The point is that if you want more testers, your need to attract more players to make characters and play them on a regular basis on Test. That means Test needs to be an Attractive, welcoming environment. And you have to accept some bad with the good. Even the not-so-great players may help test content with their *unique* playstyles - after all, they are respresentative of who is on the live servers.</P> <P>I think the ideas of a moderate experience boost is great - for adventuring and even more for tradeskilling. A tradeskilling boost would help kick the Test economy out of its current catatonic state. The amount of items available on brokers is pathetic. I know there is a strong barter and one-on-one economy going, but that doesn't serve to test the effects of changes to the economies on live servers that are much more dependent on the in-game merchant system. I I also like the idea of making adventure packs free. They generally don't get as much attention as the main game which makes them more prone to bugs. I do not support the idea of large-scale copying of characters onto Test, because it would destabilize the community here and it would be ineffective at finding the more obscure bugs that are not directly related to new content.</P> <P>If you want people to spend more time on Test doing traditional testing functions, then devs need to implement in-game measures that will get testing methods and testing issue in the face of the player. Use the MOTD to put up testing tips or directions. Make sure every player that creates a new character on Test is told about the test chat channel immediately and automatically. There is a lot of interesting chat on that channel and it is a good place for questions. The devs on the server should be easily identifiable and frequently on. Devs and dedicated testers should talk up the new changes in testing, and elicit player opinions. Just like players on live servers, I would bet that most players on Test don't read the SOE boards on a regular basis.</P> <P>Bottom line, if the devs want effective volunteers to help test the game, then they will have to cultivate them, Incentive, good and frequent communication, and education are all key. Garbage in, garbage out. More investment in the Test community will result in a better testing process. Be inclusive, not exclusive.</P> <DIV>Curiousity - 20 fury, 13 scholar</DIV>

[Banditman]

Here's the bottom line: For YEARS . . . EQ1 through now . . . SOE has tried to build their "Test" server as a stand alone community for testing.  It's time they ask themselves "How well is our test environment working?". If they are honest, they'll be forced to answer "Not too (*@# good". It is time for them to abandon the idea of a "Test" community and move forward with turning Test into a TEST server.  One that is updated often, BROKEN often and completely unbalanced often.  TEST THINGS ! Players need to be able to copy their character(s) to test!  Until you do this, you will have inadequate testing at best, and incompetent and non-existant testing at worst. Test in it's current incarnation is a FAILURE.  Scrap it.  Make Test a true TEST environment and perhaps then you'll be able to get some real testing and meaningful feedback done. <div></div>

[Ellya]

<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Here's the bottom line: For YEARS . . . EQ1 through now . . . SOE has tried to build their "Test" server as a stand alone community for testing.  It's time they ask themselves "How well is our test environment working?". If they are honest, they'll be forced to answer "Not too (*@# good". It is time for them to abandon the idea of a "Test" community and move forward with turning Test into a TEST server.  One that is updated often, BROKEN often and completely unbalanced often.  TEST THINGS ! Players need to be able to copy their character(s) to test!  Until you do this, you will have inadequate testing at best, and incompetent and non-existant testing at worst. Test in it's current incarnation is a FAILURE.  Scrap it.  Make Test a true TEST environment and perhaps then you'll be able to get some real testing and meaningful feedback done. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree. Only a fraction of the VERY small test community is their for  true testing.</span><div></div>

[Nibbl]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>If SOE really wanted test server to work well they would provide pre-canned characters that players could choose from and play. SOE could also provide single, group, and raid encounters based on the type and level of character selected and match them up. There should be specific tools designed to log data for these controlled encounters, along with a feedback forum of pre-canned questions for the tester to answer. SOE would definitely see an increase in test participation, people could log on choose a class as well as level they are use to on live and provide good tests and feedback. If they advertised "We are performing a raid on mob X, we need 24 testers" people would show up and help. Heck, they could setup 100s of controlled tests a day, and repeat the same controlled tests after they make code changes, what a concept regression testing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  When you log in you can choose to play single, group, raid, quest, crafting, etc then characters are provided at various levels for that specific goal.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Testing in an uncontrolled environment, i.e. players running around killing stuff and giving their so-called expert opinion on the code dynamics and what they think class x should be is utter crap. I don’t know how SOE can development quality software relying solely on player’s opinions/forums and not use test scripts with expected and desired results as well.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Additionally, paying $15 a month to create players on test server, level them, and provide feedback, what a gimmick.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I wish my current employer (hardware/software developer) could convince our end users to pay us while they test our products, the pay raise would be nice.<SPAN>  </SPAN>From the outside looking in this looks very unethical. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>05-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:07 AM</span>

[RavenFeather]

<div></div>Actually to make a 'pure' test server for testing out new content, bug reporting, etc everything on test should be 'throwaway' including charachters.  In other words, allow people to create a fully fleshed out toon, choosing level class etc, even funds, but only let that charachter exist a set amount of time.  That way those truly dedicated to testing out the new content can create a charachter perfectly suited to that new raid creature, or solo instanced zone etc.  I realize this would cause an influx of 50's with an unlimited amount of plat but in a test environment where the slate is cleaned occasionally  I think overall you'd get a better idea of what needs tweaking tuning and downright fixing.  It would also save on server traffic on copying over toons for people wanting to try the test server out.  If you look at it objectively the test server should be the place where folks can go to try out things that the devs want feedback on without having to start a whole new charachter or copy an existing.  I.E. when you log into test you get a message, ok we created such and such instanced zone for such and such level charachters, we have X amount of these charachters could you make one like this and try out this stuff and let us know how it goes.  And a feedback window popping up occasionally would be a good idea, though Id make that as unobtrusive as possible so as not to totally interfere with the gameplay.  Though this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. (Leaving my .02¢ on the bar and ducking the ensuing flying 'stools') <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ravenfeather75 on <span class=date_text>05-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:31 AM</span>

[Raman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ravenfeather75 wrote:<BR> Actually to make a 'pure' test server for testing out new content, bug reporting, etc everything on test should be 'throwaway' including charachters.  In other words, allow people to create a fully fleshed out toon, choosing level class etc, even funds, but only let that charachter exist a set amount of time.  That way those truly dedicated to testing out the new content can create a charachter perfectly suited to that new raid creature, or solo instanced zone etc.  I realize this would cause an influx of 50's with an unlimited amount of plat but in a test environment where the slate is cleaned occasionally  I think overall you'd get a better idea of what needs tweaking tuning and downright fixing.  It would also save on server traffic on copying over toons for people wanting to try the test server out. <BR><BR> If you look at it objectively the test server should be the place where folks can go to try out things that the devs want feedback on without having to start a whole new charachter or copy an existing.  I.E. when you log into test you get a message, ok we created such and such instanced zone for such and such level charachters, we have X amount of these charachters could you make one like this and try out this stuff and let us know how it goes.  And a feedback window popping up occasionally would be a good idea, though Id make that as unobtrusive as possible so as not to totally interfere with the gameplay.  Though this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.<BR><BR>(Leaving my .02¢ on the bar and ducking the ensuing flying 'stools')<BR> <P>Message Edited by Ravenfeather75 on <SPAN class=date_text>05-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, this is really the only way a true "test" server can be run.  It ensures that a large concentration of players can put themselves into or near the new material in the shortest amount of time to provide quick and intensive feedback.  Unfortunately, I doubt that will ever happen.  <BR>

[EtoilePirate]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ramanga wrote:</P> <P>I agree, this is really the only way a true "test" server can be run.  It ensures that a large concentration of players can put themselves into or near the new material in the shortest amount of time to provide quick and intensive feedback.  Unfortunately, I doubt that will ever happen. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Except, once again: the new material is rarely the problem.  New material often causes problems in OLD material -- mail, griffons, guilds, chat, links, whatever -- that get discovered through regular play.  And I imagine the Live community wants those bugs caught?</DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<div></div><div></div>Ok.... im not one to force my opinons on others...so i have come up with a middle-road solution.Make two...yes TWO test servers.One can be the close-nit community that it currently is, and the other can be strictly for testing purposes only.I propose that on this new testing server, have ATLEAST 20 live GM's that are getting in-game feedback and monitering players.Things that players NEED tobeable to do to properly test anything:* change their level to what ever their whim, to test diferent buffs, CA, spells and such.* beable to instant zone to any non-access required zone, and in cases of high end raid encounters, allow them access to only the area of the zone with these epic fights. reduce travel time, increase testing time, allow travel testing and such on test 1* beable to /armor  then the level of the armor, then the tier (handcrafted, legendary ect...)- that would give them a full set of gear appropratie for that level, to test the benefits of differnet quality of gear on characters performance.* unlimited money (money need NOT be an issue for anything, leave that community/econemy testing for test server 1) so people can buy expensive stuff that also needs to be tested* people need to beable to contact a GM at all times, and these GMs need to have a compiled data area to where they post any and all issues brought to them, and this needs to be catagorized into* here is an important issue, they need to beable to change the quality of their spells/CA- this is a major concern on my part, as many of the spells DONT increases in effectivness when upgraded, such as Nullification, and this is a bad thingDevs need to be activly participating with players on the subject of class balancing (this area i would LOVE to be a part of as i have though of many ways to make a  balanced, but still divers system compaired to what it currently is, divers but not any form or fashion is it balanced) All this would allow for more of a cummonity testing enviornment on test1, and detailed, specific testing for test2 that basicaly tests the physical mechanics, where as test1 tests enviornment travel and other stuff such as broker. I think this is a very aggreable solution to the current test's community issue as well as people who actualy want to test that new spell change they might have, or that new increases in armors affect ect... Test 2 should NOT be ment for ENJOYMENT- it is strictly for unbridaled physical test of any aspect of the game.As allways, please reply with and addition u might have, and if you disaggre with any of my ideas, please disscuss them in a adult and frank way.Toodles, peace all <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>05-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 AM</span>

[Slean]

It seems that the majority of the "copy base" wants to be able to run on do the patch note list, find out what will [Removed for Content] their character on live and then flame until SOE scraps that part. In my experiences (limited) on both SOE test servers and other companys test servers about 50%of the patch note stuff works fine the rest doesnt and when it goes live most of it works. SOE pushes the LUs out WAY before they are ready but also if they spent the month it would take to fix every little problem then everyone would whine that they never add anything and they are lazy and not patching. Test needs more DEDICATED testers and not ones that come on for patchnote testing and then go back to live. The majority of bugs associated with a patch have to do with unintended side affects and the design team doesnt know about them until someone finds them and /testbuffing 24chars to 50 and having them raid the new raid target isnt going to fix a lvl15 named mob not respawning or a bug that causes blackburrow to crash when someone logs in. The idea of incentivizing test is appealing but it should be based on contributing to the bugfinding process not just something where you can log in and try out all the classes at 50 and then leave after you "test" the /testbuff command. There are a MMOs that reward points on test for submitting quality bug reports that can be used for items and such and those systems seem to work although how a similar system could be implemented into EQ2 is something beyond me.That went on too long but the key to good testing is having people that are willing to play on test ALMOST TO THE EXCLUSION of playing on live and that requires the COMMUNITY that some people seem to think shouldnt exist on Test.(just my 2cp flame away like im sure everyone will)

[Kadurm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<BR> Ok.... im not one to force my opinons on others...so i have come up with a middle-road solution.<BR><BR>Make two...yes TWO test servers.<BR><BR>One can be the close-nit community that it currently is, and the other can be strictly for testing purposes only.<BR><BR>I propose that on this new testing server, have ATLEAST 20 live GM's that are getting in-game feedback and monitering players.<BR><BR>Things that players NEED tobeable to do to properly test anything:<BR><BR>* change their level to what ever their whim, to test diferent buffs, CA, spells and such.<BR>* beable to instant zone to any non-access required zone, and in cases of high end raid encounters, allow them access to only the area of the zone with these epic fights. reduce travel time, increase testing time, allow travel testing and such on test 1<BR>* beable to /armor  then the level of the armor, then the tier (handcrafted, legendary ect...)- that would give them a full set of gear appropratie for that level, to test the benefits of differnet quality of gear on characters performance.<BR>* unlimited money (money need NOT be an issue for anything, leave that community/econemy testing for test server 1) so people can buy expensive stuff that also needs to be tested<BR>* people need to beable to contact a GM at all times, and these GMs need to have a compiled data area to where they post any and all issues brought to them, and this needs to be catagorized into<BR>* here is an important issue, they need to beable to change the quality of their spells/CA- this is a major concern on my part, as many of the spells DONT increases in effectivness when upgraded, such as Nullification, and this is a bad thing<BR><BR>Devs need to be activly participating with players on the subject of class balancing (this area i would LOVE to be a part of as i have though of many ways to make a  balanced, but still divers system compaired to what it currently is, divers but not any form or fashion is it balanced)<BR><BR>All this would allow for more of a cummonity testing enviornment on test1, and detailed, specific testing for test2 that basicaly tests the physical mechanics, where as test1 tests enviornment travel and other stuff such as broker. I think this is a very aggreable solution to the current test's community issue as well as people who actualy want to test that new spell change they might have, or that new increases in armors affect ect... Test 2 should NOT be ment for ENJOYMENT- it is strictly for unbridaled physical test of any aspect of the game.<BR><BR><BR>As allways, please reply with and addition u might have, and if you disaggre with any of my ideas, please disscuss them in a adult and frank way.<BR><BR>Toodles, peace all <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR> <P>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <SPAN class=date_text>05-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:51 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wouldn't it be alot easier to just post, "let everyone that logs onto the test2 server have full GM powers"? That is just about what they would have with all of those options avaliable to them. Well minus the zero agro command that GMs have.

[scutt]

<P>Thats a good idea. I would log on to the test server if I could copy my main to it w/o having it deleted like after the eq beta. Whats the sense in making and expansion that goes past lvl 50 if there arent enough lvl 50 to even raid? no wait. soe dosent want anyone that plays on test to play on live. These persons might umm know what and where things are in the live game.</P> <P>Generall</P>

[CasombraHellstalk]

<DIV>I like the idea of our characters from our normal server being duped on the test server. I would be happy to once in awhile come and check out the new changes coming and offer feedback. I offer feedback on our normal server quite a bit but having to start out with a new character and on test is rather a pain in the bottom and would rarely play the character enough to offer any positive feedback that would be helpful. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, how could I give feedback on high level content when my character is say.... level 10? I know.... many test serverites are a bit worried that some of us from the regular servers would interfere with thier world. But not all of us a jerks. Many of us are mature and very good players that would love to help out the game too and offer our imput, not come in and interrupt someone else's game.</DIV>

[Beghard]

<DIV>they should "test" station exchange on the test server first............................</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That would prove to be interesting :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CasombraHellstalker wrote:<BR> <DIV>I like the idea of our characters from our normal server being duped on the test server. I would be happy to once in awhile come and check out the new changes coming and offer feedback. I offer feedback on our normal server quite a bit but having to start out with a new character and on test is rather a pain in the bottom and would rarely play the character enough to offer any positive feedback that would be helpful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, how could I give feedback on high level content when my character is say.... level 10? I know.... many test serverites are a bit worried that some of us from the regular servers would interfere with thier world. But not all of us a jerks. Many of us are mature and very good players that would love to help out the game too and offer our imput, not come in and interrupt someone else's game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And I still maintain that they could easily create a small time requirement and a required survey questionnaire that would adequately separate people who want to copy and actually help from people who simply want to "see the froglok quest prior to Live release." Make it like the Guide program if you want to be a certified tester. Call them that, certified testers, and make an application process similar to the Guides (perhaps not as thorough, but of reasonable stringency), to weed out the people who <DIV>are not constructive. Make their characters disappear off Test if the time requirements for feedback aren't met each month and do not allow them to immediately (if ever), reapply.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ashlian Liadan, 38 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</DIV>

[CasombraHellstalk]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashlian wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CasombraHellstalker wrote:<BR> <DIV>I like the idea of our characters from our normal server being duped on the test server. I would be happy to once in awhile come and check out the new changes coming and offer feedback. I offer feedback on our normal server quite a bit but having to start out with a new character and on test is rather a pain in the bottom and would rarely play the character enough to offer any positive feedback that would be helpful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, how could I give feedback on high level content when my character is say.... level 10? I know.... many test serverites are a bit worried that some of us from the regular servers would interfere with thier world. But not all of us a jerks. Many of us are mature and very good players that would love to help out the game too and offer our imput, not come in and interrupt someone else's game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And I still maintain that they could easily create a small time requirement and a required survey questionnaire that would adequately separate people who want to copy and actually help from people who simply want to "see the froglok quest prior to Live release." Make it like the Guide program if you want to be a certified tester. Call them that, certified testers, and make an application process similar to the Guides (perhaps not as thorough, but of reasonable stringency), to weed out the people who <DIV>are not constructive. Make their characters disappear off Test if the time requirements for feedback aren't met each month and do not allow them to immediately (if ever), reapply.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ashlian Liadan, 38 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would be willing to do that if that was the case. <BR></DIV>

[Ashlian]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CasombraHellstalker wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashlian wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CasombraHellstalker wrote:<BR> <DIV>I like the idea of our characters from our normal server being duped on the test server. I would be happy to once in awhile come and check out the new changes coming and offer feedback. I offer feedback on our normal server quite a bit but having to start out with a new character and on test is rather a pain in the bottom and would rarely play the character enough to offer any positive feedback that would be helpful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, how could I give feedback on high level content when my character is say.... level 10? I know.... many test serverites are a bit worried that some of us from the regular servers would interfere with thier world. But not all of us a jerks. Many of us are mature and very good players that would love to help out the game too and offer our imput, not come in and interrupt someone else's game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And I still maintain that they could easily create a small time requirement and a required survey questionnaire that would adequately separate people who want to copy and actually help from people who simply want to "see the froglok quest prior to Live release." Make it like the Guide program if you want to be a certified tester. Call them that, certified testers, and make an application process similar to the Guides (perhaps not as thorough, but of reasonable stringency), to weed out the people who <DIV>are not constructive. Make their characters disappear off Test if the time requirements for feedback aren't met each month and do not allow them to immediately (if ever), reapply.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ashlian Liadan, 38 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would be willing to do that if that was the case. <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, so would I :smileyhappy: I think an app process would weed out the "just wanna see the new *quest, spell, ability, whatever*" people and help them create a team of dedicated testers without compromising the community in Test. I have a lot of admiration for the people on Test, I agree that they're doing the Live servers a service. Willingness to make a character solely on Test is its own commitment, so if you're willing to do that, no need for any application. Allowing people willing to dedicate a few hours a week strictly to testing to do so with a copied character after an application process would immensely increase their feedback. I think it would be a happy medium between those who've committed to Test, and those who would be committed to testing, but want to remain with friends/family on their original server.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, 38 Fury, 32 Tailor of Mistmoore<BR></P>