A tradeskill suggestion

[otlg]

<DIV><SPAN class=postbody>Hey folks, <BR><BR>First of all, I borrowed my post from another forum of great people, to drop here in the hopes that between the two places, it will get some dev eyeballs. Having said that, I had an idea that I think would make the whole tradeskill thing *alot* less tedius and figured I would present it here. <BR><BR>The idea occurred to me while chatting with a friend a while back. We all *hate* grinding out the combines. If I have to waste 20 minutes making another stack of (insert oil here) I'll probably have to kill myself. So I got to thinking, how could SOE speed this process up, without totally wrecking the balance of tradeskills. That's when I had this idea. Comments and feedback would be appreciated. For the record, I hereby relinquish all rights to this idea, should SOE or one of their representatives choose to implement it. <BR><BR>When you start creating an item, in the tradeskill instance, the game should prompt you for how many based on consumption. I.e. I want to use a full stack of candels, water and lead to make fossil tempers. Then you go through the same process as making 1. Whatever the result of that 1 is, gets multiplied out across the whole bunch. In other words, if I make a pristine, then I get a full stack of consumption worth of pristines. If I have bad luck or a particularly tough piece of material, and end up with shaped, then I end up with all shaped output. Kind of a crap-shoot, but that's the risk you run to save time. <BR><BR>Additionally I would recommend limiting this to non-finish items. Only the combines grind in this fashion. As far as tradeskill XP goes, I would be more than happy with half of whatever the normal XP would be for a full stack of grinding (i.e. 10xp instead of 20xp I would get from grinding a full stack of pristines). <BR><BR>I *think* this would make life a WHOLE lot easier for tradeskill folks. It would also likely result in more components showing up on the broker, which would further cut down time for someone (i.e. I may choose to make a whole stack and only need half of it, which means sell the other half, and have someone else save time). <BR><BR>By limiting it to non-finish items, you won't flood the market with 20x pieces of armor, but you will make it easier for folks to get to the 'end game' of crafting. </SPAN></DIV> <P><SPAN class=postbody>Also, as someone pointed out, in order to not turn this into something that could be abused for cash, set it up so that wholesaler/merchant sellback on anything made in this fashion only pays the wholesaler item cost, and not the raw material cost (obviously 'finish' items would still sell normally, as they would still be 1x at a time)</P> <DIV>Anyway, this is just my thoughts. Would love feedback. </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=postbody></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=postbody>Thanks,</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=postbody>Osiri</SPAN></DIV>

[Iggmarr]

<P>this is a verry brilliant idea :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I was thinking about making a post that was somthing to this effect but i think i like yours better than mine. I'll admitt im not the best poster on these boards lol. But i do want to say that i hate grinding wash, oil, and resin as well as inks. although i image they wont let us multi-craft the inks in this manner. Would certainly make my life as a Sage a heck of allot more fun. I hate getting large orders for spells and not having the compnents made up already, Bleh having to go back and make 20+ spells from scratch is verry tedious, time consuming, and in no way fun, even more so when you dont make much money from the 3+ hours u just spent making them anyways. 5 stars to you my friend, lets hope they at LEAST look at this and THINK about implementing it on test or somthing. Just throw it on test for 3 months and see what happens.</P>

[BlackHa]

<P>I am not entirely supportive of the idea as presented.</P> <P>* There would be a flood of finished items on the market because of the amount of time saved making the refines and/or interims.</P> <P>* Those that labored to the higher levels would feel that they "wasted" a lot of time getting there. They would have been better off just adventuring and waiting for a change like this to happen. I worked hard to get to my crafting level. Now you want to "give" it to everybody? I have a marketing edge due to dedicated work at the forge. Only through  dedication should one achieve this benefit.</P> <P>* There is the potential business of players wholeselling refines and interims to other players that would be wiped out (using the model you propose).</P> <P> </P> <P>The only way I would agree to something like this is if the time was parlayed as well. For example...make a 20 stack of refines as you suggest, but wait for 30 minutes for the stack to be completed. Further, the character should not be able to perform any other actions while in this mode.</P>

[otlg]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackHair wrote:<BR> <P>I am not entirely supportive of the idea as presented.</P> <P>* There would be a flood of finished items on the market because of the amount of time saved making the refines and/or interims.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You may hate me for this, but:  Good.  There needs to be.  There is a serious supply/demand imbalanace right now, as evidenced by the outrageous prices being charged by crafters for items that cost them very little to make.  Infact, in most cases it's highway robbery (With the going rate for raw materials being next to nothing, and finished goods costings, on average 30-100x the cost to make then, something is wrong).</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>* Those that labored to the higher levels would feel that they "wasted" a lot of time getting there. They would have been better off just adventuring and waiting for a change like this to happen. I worked hard to get to my crafting level. Now you want to "give" it to everybody? I have a marketing edge due to dedicated work at the forge. Only through  dedication should one achieve this benefit.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, fair enough, valid, and I see where you are coming from, but, the same thing could be said about reallife situations, where a technological advance wipes out years of someone's hard work.  Happens all the time.  Besides, you would still get the benefits now, and my system already includes a proposal for scaled down XP (hell scale it way down on those multi-shots, I *do not* grind for XP, I grind  cause I need to <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>* There is the potential business of players wholeselling refines and interims to other players that would be wiped out (using the model you propose).</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Based on what I *usually* see these going for on my server, again: Good.  Prices for crafted goods are stupidly high right now.  Way, way, way out of line with material and time cost.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>The only way I would agree to something like this is if the time was parlayed as well. For example...make a 20 stack of refines as you suggest, but wait for 30 minutes for the stack to be completed. Further, the character should not be able to perform any other actions while in this mode.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well I might not disagree with something <STRONG>similar</STRONG> to that.  Perhaps limit the total volume that can be produced based on hours/mintues in the tradeskill instance.  My goal here isn't to increase production, it's to save my <STRONG>real world</STRONG> time, grinding out stuff for a virtual world.  Also, for the record, thank you for your post.  This is why I posted this idea; for feedback.</P> <P>Osiri<BR>(PS:  SOE Devs see how idea exchange *can* work <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )<BR></P>

[mastalynx]

<DIV>your idea would work extremely well if they required subcombines to be pristine or at least higher than crude</DIV>

[Zahmekos]

<i>My goal here isn't to increase production, it's to save my <strong>real world</strong> time, grinding out stuff for a virtual world. </i>So you would invest less time for crafting when this will be installed, so that you don't produce more stuff ? Otherwise you WILL increase production. What will you do when you reach L50 ? With your suggestion there will only be L50 crafters and none will produce stuff for say L10-L30 because the crafters will just fly through the Levels, produce more in a massively shorter time. So the market will first be flooded, so that you can't sell all your stuff fast enough for your higher crafting rate. So you will  have to sell it to the wholeseller, because your boxes will be filled with product.  Exp. should be at max the same as you would produce one item, like with tempers where you produce 4 but 'only' get exp for one. So why not make the same with adventuring ? When I attack one I can select how many I wanna kill. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Zannah]

how about returning the basic subcombines to the Wholesaler vendors - tiers based on society level like it was before? <div></div>

[Valta]

<BR> <DIV>sounds good</DIV>

[Jan It]

Everything that doesn´t need some effort to make is worthless. Putting in that "cost to make" argument stops me from going any further into the discussion, because with that you´ve disqualified yourself as a reasonable poster. <div></div>

[Valta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jan Itor wrote:<BR>Everything that doesn´t need some effort to make is worthless.<BR>Putting in that "cost to make" argument stops me from going any further into the discussion, because with that you´ve disqualified yourself as a reasonable poster.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>so you call using a ton of time "effort"? there is nothing I have to do while refining and making interims, except of wasting time for that a LOT of time. I just hit the "start"§ button and let it work out, 90% I get pristine. during the process I read a good book, after a lot of hours I have enough interims to realy make something (enough so I dont need to go on interims in 20 shots).

[Traz]

<DIV>Couple things here....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In your post you used wort's (Washes Oils Resins Tempers) as an example, but you already are making 4 worts per cluster used...ie 1 fulginate cluster makes 4 Xeolith temper, so it takes 5 combines to make 1 stack. Now this can't be what you are trying to get changed because it at most takes 2 minutes to make a stack of wort's which means you are wanting to be able to mass produce the other subcoms like say turn 20 teak into 20 teak lumber in one combine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mass producing subcoms just means you are going to mass produce the end product, yes you have to make the end product one by one but you will be effectively reducing the time it takes to make by roughly 4/5ths, instead of 140 combines to make 20 hammers it would take 26 combines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>20 raw teak - 20 lumber</DIV> <DIV>20 lumber - 20 staves</DIV> <DIV>20 pelts - 20 leathers</DIV> <DIV>20 leathers - 20 hilts</DIV> <DIV>20 fulginate - 20 bars</DIV> <DIV>20 bars - 20 hammer heads</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>That to me is a bad idea and here is why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV>This means the market will be flooded by items, all prices are going to drop. Now low prices is a reason to rejoice right? at least they are until all the crafters stop crafting, only craft for their guild or simply quit because by that time the only use for being a crafter will be to make the occasional rare peice. Their will no longer be any drive for people to be a crafter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I worked my butt off to reach level 50 both as a crafter and as an adventurer, someone mentioned something about people in real life working hard at something just to have technology make their hard work meaningless overnight. Well this isnt real life, this is a game. Just because someone is tired of 'grinding' and wants an easy way to an end product is no reason to make everyone else' efforts meaningless.</DIV></DIV>

[Traz]

<DIV> <DIV>Bad idea....</DIV> <DIV>Implementing something like this means the market will be flooded by items, all prices are going to drop, and the only use for being a crafter will be to make the occasional rare peice, but by then the majority of the crafters will be gone because there is no use to crafting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets say you want to make fulginate hammers...20 hammers requires 140 combines, if you put in this system it will reduce it to 26 combines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I worked my butt off to reach level 50 both as a crafter and as an adventurer, someone mentioned technology ruining someones years of hardwork overnight, well this is a game not real life. There is no reason that I can think of to put this in just because people want to whine that they are wasting too much time 'grinding' out subcoms in order to make an end product or get exp faster.</DIV></DIV>

[Traz]

<DIV>oops, tried posting the first one and and went to an error page, the second one was an abbreviated version because I didnt want to type all that again. Sorry</DIV>

[otlg]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trazic wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><snip></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I worked my butt off to reach level 50 both as a crafter and as an adventurer, someone mentioned technology ruining someones years of hardwork overnight, well this is a game not real life. There is no reason that I can think of to put this in just because people want to whine that they are wasting too much time 'grinding' out subcoms in order to make an end product or get exp faster.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>While your point is mostly valid, I do take issue with something you said.  Specifically you worked your butt off.  Forgive me for this, because it's not work in the slightest.  All you did was spend a lot of time.  A lot of very BORING time.  Clicking at most 3 buttons.  Watching said buttons *maybe* do something, but basically you are spending quality time with yourself and the random number generator.  Wow!!! This is amazing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess my frustration comes from:  I can't totally ignore the crafting process, yet I don't have nearly enough direct control over the final product.  To me it feels like a ton of wasted time.  Hey self, let's make X..... <10 minutes later, 1 sliver away from being finished with a pristine>... suddenly <whoofp> [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] half my progress and durability are gone and I had the chance to do nothing.  Wow that was a TOTAL waste of my time.  Now watch it finish, run over to the wholeseller and dump the item, repeat... Shoot me now <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe mutli-combines isn't the right way to solve the problem, but something isn't right in the crafting process.  What I would like to hear is ideas for making the process less boring.  My idea was based around less time = less boredom.  However, if you can think of a way to make it more entertaining, while taking the same time it currently does I'm fine with that too.  Just trying to throw a stake into the ground here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Osiri<BR></DIV>

[bellstar]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> otlg wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trazic wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I worked my butt off to reach level 50 both as a crafter and as an adventurer, someone mentioned technology ruining someones years of hardwork overnight, well this is a game not real life. There is no reason that I can think of to put this in just because people want to whine that they are wasting too much time 'grinding' out subcoms in order to make an end product or get exp faster.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>While your point is mostly valid, I do take issue with something you said.  Specifically you worked your butt off.  Forgive me for this, because it's not work in the slightest.  All you did was spend a lot of time.  A lot of very BORING time.  Clicking at most 3 buttons.  Watching said buttons *maybe* do something, but basically you are spending quality time with yourself and the random number generator.  Wow!!! This is amazing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>People who start crafting now have it a lot easier than people who got to 50 earlier in the game.  Before the 4 new skills went in, there was a LOT of work involved.  You had to find and coordinate intermediate items with other crafters just to create decent exp for your level.  It's just kind of flippant to discount what others had to endure before interdependency was removed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe in the future they can add Alternate Advancement for crafters that will aid in the making of multiple subs.  That way it's not an ability that everyone and their dog has, but reserved for those that hit the upper levels of crafting.</DIV>

[Jan It]

<span><blockquote><hr>Valtaya wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Jan Itor wrote:Everything that doesn´t need some effort to make is worthless.Putting in that "cost to make" argument stops me from going any further into the discussion, because with that you´ve disqualified yourself as a reasonable poster. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>so you call using a ton of time "effort"? <div></div><hr></blockquote>That pretty much sums it up.</span><div></div>

[Traz]

<DIV>Dedicating day after day to skilling up and gaining exp is not a waste of time if you truly want to attain the mark of being a master craftsman/woman. It is <EM>this</EM> dedication that will seperate the wheat from the chaff. Getting to level 50 should not be easy and the only real way for them to test the mettle of a potential crafter is to make it a long process. If grinding out subcoms is so distressing to you then perhaps you are not cut out to be a crafter.</DIV> <DIV>If you want a boost to your morale, pending what your crafter profession is, look for some of the end game crafted items that you could potentially make. For me it was making Ebon weapons. Now its getting the secret tradeskill books from Zek to make Rubicite weapons or wyrmsteel etc.</DIV> <DIV>Instead of asking for the game to get easier try to motivate yourself to keep skilling up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Brae of the Shard</U></DIV> <DIV>50 Templar</DIV> <DIV>50 Weaponsmith</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sanctum of Oasis Server</DIV>

[Valta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trazic wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Bad idea....</DIV> <DIV>Implementing something like this means the market will be flooded by items, all prices are going to drop, and the only use for being a crafter will be to make the occasional rare peice, but by then the majority of the crafters will be gone because there is no use to crafting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets say you want to make fulginate hammers...20 hammers requires 140 combines, if you put in this system it will reduce it to 26 combines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I worked my butt off to reach level 50 both as a crafter and as an adventurer, someone mentioned technology ruining someones years of hardwork overnight, well this is a game not real life. There is no reason that I can think of to put this in just because people want to whine that they are wasting too much time 'grinding' out subcoms in order to make an end product or get exp faster.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>the market IS already flooded. This whole "attune" crap did not help at all. After just 2 months of play the market got flooded and the economy broken. To have equipment leave the market, they forced them to "attune", so at least you cant pass them to your friend or alt and have to buy a new armor. But that did not help, it just defered the problem, or slowed it down a bit. As time passes more and more playerswill hit 50 and more crafters will hit 50, as lvl 50 adventurer dont need any equipment, it never vanishes, its always there, forever, with time they will upgrade from regular to rare or master/unique drops. The need for high lvl crafters is equal to zero. The entry of new characters will drop even more and you know, as lvl 50 crafter I will not waste my time to make some sets of t2 equipment and sell it for a few copper, but I will be most likely so rich, that I can pass this for free anyway. Being a crafter have no point, except for crafting stuff, and then? Shall I sit on some thousands sets of equipment? Once I were the highest tailor on my server, but I quit pushing effort into this as I noticed how sensless it is (back in november 2004).</P> <P>The only and one way to make crafters valid is a decay syste. But it will never happen, there was already  a discussion in the beta boards and most players (mainly adventurers) were against it, for the only reason, that they WONT spend any more cash on equipment then absolutely necessary.</P> <P>As it stands now (example with T3 as Im producing this stuff the most), I can make an armor piece T3 and it cost me about 6-8s, the regular sell-price is 40s. I have to make about 50 complete sets to get into T4 in crafting, but I will most likely sell only 10-20. 30 sets are completely wasted, most crafters distribute the cost for this stuff between waht they are able to sell. -> 40s sell price. Now imagine I can sell all the stuff I have had to produce, so I can sell it to players for about 16-20s. I will still have to produce the same amount of equipment and I will manage to make the same overall profit on it. The economy is regulated by the offer and need, the need will be there, as, lets say, a lvl 20ish fighter would need 4 complete sets of equipment before he hits 30. The supply/offer IS there, the stuff IS there, so it will be offered for sale and the crafter will sell their stuff, so they wil lgo down in price until it reach some reasonable value (16to20s per piece T3, or even a bit less). And you know, once you are lvl 50, you will also need new equipment from time to time, so the 50ish crafter is still valuable and not pointless. Look at DAOC, it works there, so it will work here too, or should. I know its not that simple but with some effort it will work.</P> <P>But I have no doubt, the players screamed and SOE listened and cripled their ecomony for the rest of the time. Its a hard way, to listen and do what the players wish and to ignore their screaming because it is not good for the game. Well well. (I should take some english class, my english became awfull lol)</P>

[Iggmarr]

<P>ok, since allot of people are concerned about the market getting flooded why not just make it so u have to do a tradeskill quest that gives a recipe for a "stack of <U>insert product here</U>" Make sure that the recipe is only for 1 type of interim product. Example you just completed a lvl 10-19 (maybe 20 if u think u should have to already be in the next teir to be able to make them this fast in a previous one) quest that gave you the recipe for "a stack of stroma wash". Make these quests a bit time consuming to do, and maybe as i mentioned before make it so u cant recieve an recipe higher than a green or trivial con and viola the market wont get flooded but people will still have the ability to make products to sell faster if they bother to do the quest. </P> <P>I think its verry important to make sure you can only make trivial - green con items with these new mass production items, and that this quest should be tier baced and repeatable and simply offer a drop down list of wich recipe they want, sort of like the far seas req's in EL. make the recipes sellable as well and heck you just created another niche in the market place for people who feel repeatable grinding out the quest to sell the recipes to others.</P>

[Valta]

<P>doublepost</P><p>Message Edited by Valtaya on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:23 PM</span>