With the Game in Extreme Flux, What Incentive Do I have to Play?

[Bisho]

People are drawn to MMORPGs for different reasons and with different expectations.  Nonetheless, I believe most people need some level of confidence that the time they invest in a game will not be wasted because a major change in game mechanics signficantly affects their character's effectiveness, play style or ultimate fun factor. I tend to be a one character player.  Thus, I've invested all of my time (which admittedly, is relatively sparse) playing a Mystic.  As the numerous threads on the topic have demonstrated, the recent haze nerf has seriously affected the Mystic's gameplay.  The changes are so dramatic that I'm prepared to roll another healer.  The problem, however, is that I have no realistic belief that the character I play today will even closely resemble the character I play a few months for now.  To the contrary, SOE (through Moorgard) has told me that priest "balancing" will occur sometime in the future - when, no one knows (other than it won't be seen in LU <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. From my trolling of the boards, this extreme flux is common to virtually all classes.  Combat is undergoing a major overhaul, the effects of which we can only speculate.  Virtually all archetypes and classes are looking at serious reworking which may ultimately change the nature of each class. Under these circumstances, how does one reasonably invest his or her time in an existing or new character before SOE implements stable game mechanics?  And, perhaps more importantly, how does SOE expect its player base to tolerate this pay-for-play beta given the host of more finished games on the market?<div></div>

[Omnikain]

<P>Personally, I find it hard to sympathize with Mystics simply because my slow as a Defiler has always sucked.</P> <P>I dunno, work crafting or roll a scout or something.  I'm using this time to do the armoring that I have neglected.</P>

[Collectall3]

<DIV>/agree </DIV>

[Bisho]

<div></div>Tthe suggestion that crafting offers an alternative to adventuring during SOE's reconfiguration of this game does not fit me (nor, I suspect, many players).   I'm not a crafter nor do I desire to become one.  Indeed, one of the fundamental premises of EQII is that I can choose where I spend my time playing - I should not be compelled to engage in what I consider to be a mind-numbing exercise while I await the fixes to that aspect I most enjoy. Nor do I understand why problems with Defiliers obviate problems found in other classes.  Fundamentally, SOE still has not produced a game with stable game mechanics.  This point was reaffirmed in Moorgard's most recent post where he informed the community: <blockquote>We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale. </blockquote> And, should I accept your suggestion to roll a Scout, the only thing I can know with confidence is that his gameplay will change once SOE has completed its combat revisions. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Bishopp on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 PM</span>

[SunT]

<P>You should keep playing because it is fun.</P> <P>Mystic had a very powerful debuf, so powerful that a mystic could solo blue ^^ one level lower in the mid forties, i.e. 44 at 45.  No other class that I know of can come even close.  At the same time Mystics suck as healers because their heals are so expensive.  Wards are great but if you are behind the ball you are beat because you can't catch up without going oop.</P> <P>You will get a major improvement to your heals I will bet.  I think you guys are going to be happy.  You will always be the best buffer and best back up a mele has against mele mobs.  I only see you getting improved at this.</P> <P>I also am not conviced they are even going to do the complete combat change based on the test server changes I am reading.  The big problem is the way the buffs make raid mobs trivial.  That is my understanding as to what they were tyring to correct.  They are now making changes to the raid mobs to change the way they deal damage.  This might be enough.  It may cause them to rethink the combat completely and just refine and balance some of the arts.</P> <P>In any case, it is a new game.  New games have bugs and need to be tweaked.  in the end, SOE has a long and strong track record of making great games.</P> <P>This will all work itself out in the end.</P> <P>If I stopped doing things everytime I heard the world was ending tommorrow, I would never get anything done.  </P> <P>If you are having fun playing the game then just play.</P>

[Omnikain]

<DIV>"Indeed, one of the fundamental premises of EQII is that I can choose where I spend my time playing"</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>And you still can sir, you are simply choosing to focus on a solitary aspect of your character.  No one is making that choice for you.  If you don't like to craft, that's 100% fine.  You asked for alternatives, and I gave you an alternative.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>Here's more:  Work solo quests, work writs for your guild (assuming you have a guild), roll a new character simply for the experience and not worry about what it "might" become.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>"Nor do I understand why problems with Defiliers obviate problems found in other classes. "</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>They do not, however, I've managed to have fun with my character without a massive unbalancing debuff, so I do find it hard to comprehend why you're suddenly at a loss for something to do.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>As I've said before, I don't agree with how this change went into place, but it did.  To focus on it is simply depriving yourself of any fun you might have while playing.</FONT></DIV>

[Banditman]

Are you one of those people who think LFG is a guild for Mystics and Defilers ? <div></div>

[TooFarGo]

<div></div>this will only work a few times, I know, but playing alts is a great way to spend time while your main gets "fixed".  i'm mainly a wizzy, but when I get bored of that or ticked off at the latest wizzy bug/nerf/whatever  I'll go play my scout (currently level 15). What a fun class that is!  I intend to try other classes as well, with my 4 remaining alts. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TooFarGone on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:30 PM</span>

[Elda]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>Are you one of those people who think LFG is a guild for Mystics and Defilers ?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL :smileyvery-happy:

[Kylan]

<I>Nonetheless, I believe most people need some level of confidence that the time they invest in a game will not be wasted because a major change in game mechanics signficantly affects their character's effectiveness, play style or ultimate fun factor.</I>You must be new to MMORPGs. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Nerfs always have and always will be part of the game. You must know at SOME point this will happen to you. If you cannot accept that, move on to the next MMORPG till the nerf bat swings there, get used to it, or quit. It won't stop.The point of these games is to interact with PEOPLE. Stats, powers, abilities, all of that are methods of interacting with people. If the power of one particular spell or ability is all you care about, you <B>will not</B> enjoy games like these.

[Bisho]

In truth, I suspect I'm one of the older MMORPG gamers around (both chronologically and in terms of pure gaming experience).  And I was probably playing PnP games when many current gamers were yet  a twinkle in their parents'  eye. But more critically, despite my years of gaming experience, I don't accept the notion that MMORPG's have a license to peddle unfinished products.  To the contrary, since the MMORPG industry receives both my upfront investment plus my monthly fee, I expect more, not less, from the company. Perhaps I'm tilting at windmills, but certainly an experienced company such as SOE should recognize by now that gamers will tolerate only so much experimentation after the game has gone gold before become so expasperated that they choose to leave.  And with greater competition, the likelihood that these departing gamers will be replaced with new arrivals is diminshed. Plainly, many people are willing to pay for an unfinished product.  As such, SOE will continue to allow its coding to be haphazard and, imho, arbitrary because the economics allows it to be mediocre.  That, in itself, is a sad commentary on the entire enterprise. <div></div>

[strath]

I too am rather baffeled why people continue to pat to play beta..its so horribly ovious that its not funny, especiallly with the complete rework of the ocmbat system, followed by a complete rework of t he casting system, the zone populations and loot and mob toughness scales are still getting drastically rewritten, when will people realize that they paid 50$ in store for a finished, complete, ready to play core game?? es i realize the mmorpg goes thru changes as it matures...but thsi isnt changing as it matures, its simply trying to stabalize into a finished ready to play to mature game...were only about halfway thru beta as it is, no joke, and frankly its rediculous.

[Jaffa Tamarin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunTsu wrote:<BR> <P>You should keep playing because it is fun.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What he said.</DIV>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bishopp wrote:<BR>From my trolling of the boards, this extreme flux is common to virtually all classes.  Combat is undergoing a major overhaul, the effects of which we can only speculate.  Virtually all archetypes and classes are looking at serious reworking which may ultimately change the nature of each class. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I can understand why folks could feel uncertain right now. So far all I've been able to do is hint at some of the changes coming, and how they will affect all adventure classes in one way or another. It's not that I want to be vague on purpose, but rather because I want to make sure the changes make it through our internal testing process before talking about them in detail. We'll be playing them ourselves before moving them to the Test server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We've spent a lot of time discussing the scope of these changes and how far we should take them. Believe me, the issue of maintaining the confidence of players is not lost on any of us, nor is the natural resistance that everyone feels toward change to one degree or another. We discussed ideas ranging from minor tweaks to the existing system and living with some broken aspects of it to a complete revamp of everything. Ultimately we had to decide upon our priorities and make the changes we believe to be necessary for a healthy and fun game while remaining true to the world we have established.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, fun has to be at the core of this. Raids where the tank is invulnerable aren't fun. Soloing without any element of risk isn't fun, either. Both situations may seem that way for a while, but ultimately the lack of challenge will cause boredom.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some have complained that recent decisions like the population changes in many zones are making the game too easy. Well, it's easy in part because of the way combat works. We want content to be accessible but we don't want it to be trivial. If you're satisfied to hunt green solo mobs to avoid challenge, your rewards should reflect that choice. By the same token, taking on tough group content should be much more rewarding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yes, fundamental changes are required. We tried a lot of new gameplay elements and mechanics when we designed EverQuest II, and some of them have worked much better than others. We could live with that and say "Well, the game is what it is," or we can make a choice now, while the game is still young, to make changes that will be better for the long haul and ultimately make this a more fun game. We think the latter is a better choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I'm still not going to outline the changes in full detail, I can tell you that one of the things we want to do is reinforce the archetype roles. Fighters are about tanking; scouts and mages are about damage; priests are about healing. Those are the broadest strokes I can describe, and obviously there's a lot of refinement that will take place at the class and subclass level. We'll be making changes to spells and arts in order to meet those goals and reinforce the element of challenge that is absolutely necessary for this kind of game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though many of you will still be hesitant about the upcoming changes until you can experience them for yourselves, I hope you can see that we aren't doing this lightheartedly or without a lot of discussion and planning. We only want to do this once, and we want to do it right.</DIV>

[Zuuljin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some have complained that recent decisions like the population changes in many zones are making the game too easy. Well, it's easy in part because of the way combat works. We want content to be accessible but we don't want it to be trivial. If you're satisfied to hunt green solo mobs to avoid challenge, your rewards should reflect that choice. By the same token, taking on tough group content should be much more rewarding.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As one of the ones complaining about to easy, I completely agree that it has alot to do with how combat works.  Thinking back to EQ1, even if i outleveld a dungeon, there was still a sense of danger going there.  I think this in large part has to do with the greying out system.  Pretty much ruins the danger feel of any area youv outleveled.  I wish it would work more like a proximity thing the higher level you are.  So maybe when your 30 levels above something you can walk past it, but at 10-15 levels lower, if something see's you, it should still attack you.  The more you outlevel something, the smaller its agro range is.  It just feels weird that I can run around half the world without a hint of danger.  I just see this becoming a serious problem when the level cap is raised.  As you literally remove more and more of the game as you level.   I know bottom feeding is bad, but honestly, in eq1 when i was bored, it was alot of fun to go back to lower dungeons and see what kind of treasure I could pick up.  While at the same time still having to work for it, even though it was all well below my level.</P> <P>IMO the first round of combat changes were great.  It was more difficult to solo certain mobs.  I found more fights to be closer.  It does feel more challenging.  No longer could i round up 20+ freshly grey mobs and mow them down and still have full HP at the end.</P> <P>I dont know what changes are coming obviously, but my suggestion would be to just spread the level range a bit furthur and even out dmg output between levels.  Such that some mobs i should think, maybe i can, maybe i cant win.  But as of right now, if its lowest green, its guarnteed win, if its 1 level higher, its guaranteed loss, for soloing group mobs.  Also, make all mobs of a certain level  the same power, except for names.  What I mean is, a group of 3 normal mobs, is not the same as pulling 3 solo mobs of the same level.  I can usually solo 3-4 solo mobs at a time that are blue and maybe white.  But If i try a group of 3 blue mobs thats listed as group, I get smacked down.  It should be a suggestion, not so much a rule.  I should be able to judge encounters and actually wonder if i could win, instead of check its level and its either a no or yes for killing it.  <BR></P>

[aeio]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> </blockquote><div> </div> <div>While I'm still not going to outline the changes in full detail, I can tell you that one of the things we want to do is reinforce the archetype roles. Fighters are about tanking; scouts and mages are about damage; priests are about healing. Those are the broadest strokes I can describe, and obviously there's a lot of refinement that will take place at the class and subclass level. We'll be making changes to spells and arts in order to meet those goals and reinforce the element of challenge that is absolutely necessary for this kind of game.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Music to my eyes. </span><div></div>

[swampthing]

Everything you talk about moorguard is what BETA is for. You remember beta right? it was that period you guys rushed through asap so you could beat WoW to market?  That period where you didn't listen to any of your testers feedback because you guys thought you were right and you now found out you were wrong and that had you listened to your testers most of these changes wouldn't be necessary. It's inexcusable for games like this to fundamentally change hte way the game plays and expect people to suck it up.  It's obvious your going to nerf fighters damage into oblivion as part of your combat changes.  You think this is fair to all fighters that have built their characters and enjoyment around being able to tank and do damage?  The scouts will pipe up here and say it's not fair to them, they aren't wanted, blah blah.  Well, there's surely other ways of making them better NOT at the cost of fighters. I guess it doesn't matter what my opinion is, i've allready cancelled due to station exchange.  But hey good luck adding in that /cd command. <div></div>

[Auberon_Feykin]

I too worry about my character in light of the coming changes.  I think everyone does to some extent.  Personally my worries go more along the: they're playing with stats, what should I spend my money on" (I'm in t5, I have to make decisions based upon what I want to try and buy to carry me through until the first expansion), and less on what they'll do with my class (I suspect I'll continue to do damage, and that it should be, finally, a bit more than a fighter class) . . . Someone said they missed EQ because they were attacked by exceedingly low level mobs and it added an element of danger.  I can tell you that I feel absolutely the opposite.  I *hated*  that in EQ.  I played a ranger, so I got owned by every low green mob that decided it wanted to attack me.  They'd bring a friend or 10 and I'd get absolutely pounded.  Great, so now in EQ2 I don't have to worry about that.  I walk around in zones now without the absolute terror of wondering "am I going to get debt just because I decide to harvest that rock" . . . Please, leave the excitement to exploring new zones of appropriate level and don't start slapping debt on people who happen to be walking through a zone 10 levels lower than them. <div></div>

[Galeo1]

<P>In light of these massive changes to the fundamental workings to the game please offer a refund to those who want one.</P> <P>What SOE portrayed is not the game we bought in November.</P> <P> </P>

[Diapause]

<P>Moorgard,</P> <P>Its taken 6 months to get the game to its current state, inlcuding 7 major udpates, constant tweaking with daily patches, and significant modifications to the live combat system (AGI, Parry, Skill Capping, etc..). And that is counting only the changes after BETA. </P> <P>While the game is fun, what you have in store is essentially a forklift change to the inherent structure of the gameplaying system. And you attest to the fact that you want to get this right the first time and not have to do this again. Well your first time was in BETA not live. Undoubtedly there will be a spat of additional fixes to what this new combat system has in store and your track record of releasing non-bugged solutions to the EQ2 world clearly shows this. </P> <P>That isn't a slight, it is a fact. You are your own worst enemies in this arena with such that your life-cycle evolution for changes is not consistent. If it isn't following the Design, Proof-of-Concept, Pilot, Test, User-Acceptance, Test, Pre-Production (what u call the Test server), Test, and Production deployment chain and the problems manifest itself in content trivialization and character inbalancing. </P> <P>So what is really concerning is that we will have in store another 6 months of 'balancing' or 'capping' or adjustments until this next major revision is fine tuned. While I agree that every MMO has to go through continous self-evaluation and improvement, none should be going to thru a rewrite half-way through. Now if you said to us, 'Well we pushed the game out earlier than anticipated due to competition and wanted to frontload our subscriber base before atrophying to another game' then I can see why all this is happening now. Business is business, and Sony beating Blizzard out the door may have been important before the Christmas rush, but you are paying the consequences of such a strategy, along with your customers. </P> <P>Just my thoughts..</P> <DIV>Diapause</DIV> <DIV>Lvl47 Templar-Lavastorm</DIV>

[Wolfvi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>While I'm still not going to outline the changes in full detail, I can tell you that one of the things we want to do is reinforce the archetype roles. Fighters are about tanking; scouts and mages are about damage; priests are about healing. Those are the broadest strokes I can describe, and obviously there's a lot of refinement that will take place at the class and subclass level. We'll be making changes to spells and arts in order to meet those goals and reinforce the element of challenge that is absolutely necessary for this kind of game.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So will this include making subclass's stand out and not a carbon copy of others in that same arch type subclass. I understand that you guys want fighters to tank, dps to be done by scouts and mages and priest to heal but is there gonna be any flavor to the subclass's of those.</P> <P>I think what allot of people would love is that even though your part of a basic arch type, your subclass deterines what roll you really play not only groups but in raids. I think the massises crave some individuality and to be able not to do not just one thing but mulitple things that others cannot.</P> <P>Also Moorgard, are epic encounters (ie the 50+ stuff) gonna get a look over also in these combat changes. To many of them are immune to the types of melee dmg scouts use(piecering/slashing). Its needs to be one or the other because I have seen mobs that are immune to both and well, that just makes scouts water boys on those raids. I have heard the same thing from wizards, saying that both there cold and fire dmg is useless on some mobs. I think every class should have its place on the raid battle field and if your dps, no matter what you should be able to do dps either with one set of weapons vice another or one type of spell vices another.</P> <P>And one last comment, are we gonna get a respec for are upgraded + ablilities and armor/gear also since this game is going to go through a radical change and allot of us I bet are gonna need to make gear changes and abilites changes. If this doesn't happen I think the massies will feel that there charater is gimped and many of hours of farming, raiding and harvesting is down the tube and they will have to start all over trying to make there toon the best it can be with the right gear and abilities they need.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Wolfvine on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:57 AM</span>

[Dovifat]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div>While I'm still not going to outline the changes in full detail, I can tell you that one of the things we want to do is reinforce the archetype roles.</div><hr></blockquote> That's good to hear. The class system started to go downhill when SOE gave in to the whi...err, those people calling for more class differentiation. Of course, ´"differentiation" usually meant nothing else than "my subclass being the most sought after". ( I'm all for more visual differentiation, lots of different armor meshes with same stats, social clothing...whatever you can imagine. That's a whole other topic though ) Anyway, please remember there are two substantially different games within EQ2. One is the leveling grind 1-50, the other the raiding game once you reached the top. While somewhat hybridic subclasses may have an advantage early on, "core" classes will excel in raids. The example i'm most familiar  with is the fighter tree, refer to the appropriate threads for details. I imagine it's somewhat similar within the other archetypes, i don't have any of them at lvl 40+ though, so i don't feel i can comment. Avoiding this very issue is the whole purpose of the archetype system, so far SOE has failed - not so much in the 1-50 game, most class combinations work when grinding, assuming the players know what they'r doing. Raids are a different story though, the "equal but different" approach simply does not work ( yet ), because there just aren't the situations for, say, a Brawler tank being required over a mitigation one. </span><div></div>

[Imri]

<DIV>I hope whatever the end results of the combat/class balancing is, that it does not force any players to take significant steps backwards in what they can do currently as a solo player. I currently play a templar for instance and can solo yellow mobs with fairly safe assurances, and even some orange solo mobs if I am careful picking which ones I fight. I have all my spells upgraded to apprentice 4 or adept 1. I also wear the best armor with as high or resists I can afford. If all these changes force me to go backwards int he game, it will be greatly upsetting. I know by the guidebook white should be an even fight, but in the reallity yellow is now. If the changes you make have a player who was running throguh feerrott (for example) soloing with fairly good success and then the combat changes go in and that player all of a sudden can't manage much of anything in feerrott, I can only see that leadign to extreme duress. I think you need to keep players capable of soloing +2-3 levels  a decent shot of winning if they have upgraded all their spells and gear. I think classes that have all their spells and gear upgraded and not capable of consistantly soloing +2-+3 solo mobs should be brought up to that point wether it be through better defense or offense. I think anything that can solo higher is overpowered. I think all classes should be able to solo a -5 ^^ grp mob, and maybe if they are careful in selection a -4 ^^ grp mob. I think any clas that can consistantly solo +4 solo or -2 ^^ grp or higher with minimul downtime needs to be bumped back. To many players solo in the range I have given, and a forced step back now will just lead to a lot of angry people I am guessing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am all for balancing, but hopefully we aren't all hit by a nerf bat that knocks us back to a few zones.</DIV>

[jthu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Imrill wrote: <div> I am all for balancing, but hopefully we aren't all hit by a nerf bat that knocks us back to a few zones. </div><hr></blockquote>Exactly the point I wanted to make this morning before all the login problems.  I hope it doesn't push players back to lower level zones.</span><div></div>

[Seolta]

<P>Swampthing wrote: "Everything you talk about moorguard is what BETA is for."</P> <P>Funny, the upcoming Tank balancing issues which i've seen Blackguard and other devs talk about, could have been taken verbatim from my Beta feedback and Beta Board posts.</P> <P>At the time, my input was totally ignored...and even chastised on the boards as being "silly". (essentially the concept of balancing offense against defense so that all tanks maintain a usefull role in raid situations). It seems most people at the time, (SoE and Players alike) were caught up with the myth that "all tanks will tank equally" which 1. was never intended for high end raid content and 2. isn't even really true for group content.</P> <P>While it would have been nice for SoE to have taken their veteran fanbase more seriously during the Beta phase, at least they are TRYING to fix things now. Better than leaving things in a messed up state and just pushing out more of the same.</P> <P>IMO, if anything, the upcoming changes and constant re-working should be a reason to stay and see how it all plays out.</P>

[Blackdog183]

<P>One word Moorgard</P> <P>/reclass</P> <P>If your going to completly change the way the game works, and how the classes operate, then you need to offer this option to the player base as a means to "do right by us" for completly changing the way the friggen game operates, how the classes work etc etc etc</P>

[Dovifat]

<span><blockquote><hr>Seolta wrote:<div></div><p>It seems most people at the time, (SoE and Players alike) were caught up with the myth that "all tanks will tank equally" which 1. was never intended for high end raid content and 2. isn't even really true for group content.</p><p>IMO, if anything, the upcoming changes and constant re-working should be a reason to stay and see how it all plays out.</p><hr></blockquote> Uh, that may be incentive to stay if you rolled one of a few selected classes, the Guardian regarding the fighter tree. By your logic you are again just bodycount if  you rolled one of the "wrong" classes. There is no need for a 70% tank and 65% damage dealer. Or a 75% healer and 45% debuffer. ( continue list at your leisure ). All subclasses being eqally desirable is the basic idea of the archetype system. That includes regular xp groups as well as raids.</span><div></div>

[Heattanu]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>Soloing without any element of risk isn't fun, either. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If you're satisfied to hunt green solo mobs to avoid challenge, your rewards should reflect that choice. By the same token, taking on tough group content should be much more rewarding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can tell you that one of the things we want to do is reinforce the archetype roles. ..We'll be making changes to spells and arts in order to meet those goals and reinforce the element of challenge that is absolutely necessary for this kind of game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Some of your statements make me worry that these changes may be a backward step for the solo-friendly aspects of EQ2. I don't want to see a return to the group/raid centric game that was my major complaint about EQ1. Right now EQ2 is solo-friendly, but soloing is much easier for some classes than for others. There are plenty of solo mobs now, but fighters and priests can take on more and higher level mobs than mages and scouts. It seems like reinforcing the archetype roles may lead to less well rounded classes which could severely impact the ability to solo, particularly for some subclasses, e.g. enchanters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you go through your testing of class/archetype balance, please make sure that each class and subclass has effective tools that enable soloing. And a class that is reduced to fighting solo single greens is not good enough. Every class should be able to at a minumum solo white single solo-rated mobs and multiple solo-rated greens. This requirements should apply at most levels, not just level 50. For mages, there are many levels where root is ineffective and there is very little else that keeps them from being beaten to a pulp given their nearly not existant armor and hitpoints. For scouts the scarcity of frontal attack arts is a severe impediment. New solo-oriented spells/combat arts may be one way to address this, i.e. arts that are useful for solo, but ineffective in a group. Alternatively, you could increase the power/duration of existing spells/combat arts that enable soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, your statements make people nervous that a gigantic nerf is coming. Even your statements that promise increases in power are usually tempered by caveats that amount to "we want to make sure you won't be uber", e.g. your last comment in the enchanter thread about increasing DPS.  Please don't be afraid to give as much as or more than you take. <BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Heattanu on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:02 AM</span>

[Vobe]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raids where the tank is invulnerable aren't fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I will agree with this statement, but please keep in mind that it is also not fun when the raid tank is the ONLY person who can survive a hit from the raid mobs. Just last night I was in a raid. I am a level 50 scout, wearing the best suit of medium armor that I could manage. My HP were buffed up to over 4000. At one point, the boss mob we were fighting (not even one of the REALLY hard ones in the game), turned around on me, and blasted me for 5800 points of crushing damage in a single hit. That is a little excessive. I start to wonder why I even wear armor at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, I am not a tank, and I dont want to be a tank. But for a max level scout, wearing good armor, plus buffs, you would think it would be just a little more difficult to squish me. I mean it wasnt even close, 1800 damage  more then I had hit points for. This is not just one mob though. Pretty much every 50+ raid mob is capable of one-hit killing everybody in the raid, with the exception of the raid tank, who is super well equipped and super buffed up, with several healers chain healing him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I distinctly remember, before beta, Moorgard saying that the devs did NOT want us using old EverQuest raid tactics, that raids would be better designed then that. But that is exactly what I am seeing. A raid tank, who is super equipped and super buffed, with a whole bunch of healers chain healing him. Enchanters are invaluable to the raid for their Clarity, Haste, mez and mana drains. And everyone is making use of mod rods (manastones and essense shards in EQ2).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That sounds exactly like every EQ raid I ever did, except that we are now capped at 24 people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its also not fun when your equipment takes damage when certain raid mobs hit you.</DIV>

[dopefi]

<P>Just fyi this is the real reason i quit, and it wasnt an option on your exit survey, so just so you know......</P> <P> </P> <P>I got tired of paying to beta test your game with no honest answer of when it will go to release. I also got tired of "Trust us we want what is best for the long term success of this game" when Clearly you are in it for the money, and station exchange proves.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>Mo_G, im just all out confused.</P> <P>First you are balancing at the subclass level, then you are focused on tanks being tanks. You do understand that both cannot be done right?</P> <P>So have you guys changed your minds again and are back on the Equal but Different track?</P> <P>Furthermore, fighting static mobs is not fun. No matter what the size, no matter how pretty the graphics. Its not and it never will be. Would you like to know what fun is? </P> <P>Killing that last bear you have been trying to find and recieving your quest REWARD.</P> <P>Killing that big crazy fight full of adds and group mobs and surviving and seeing that crap load of EXP for surviving and sticking it out.</P> <P>The first time around, yeah = raids are nice, but a month later, the only thing that matters is that metal chest that falls from the mob when its defeated.</P> <P>DUDE, is this game just been demoted to some weird PR and marketing experiment? And you all are just trying your luck with a bunch of stuff that you think will work out? But in the end it doesnt really matter if it does or not?</P> <P>Every day more and more, everyone is struggling to see what in the hell you guys are trying to achieve with this game. Is being the cornerstone of mediocrity just to hold in a few 100,000 subs that focus?</P>

[sardi]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote: <p>Mystic had a very powerful debuf, so powerful that a mystic could solo blue ^^ one level lower in the mid forties, i.e. 44 at 45.  No other class that I know of can come even close.  At the same time Mystics suck as healers because their heals are so expensive.  Wards are great but if you are behind the ball you are beat because you can't catch up without going oop.</p><hr></blockquote>Before this nerf at 43 I probably could've solo'd a ++ mob 3-4+ levels lower than me, but I can guarentee it would've taken a very long time, I'd say 6-10 minutes. I'll admit my equipment could use some upgrading but I find it hard to believe that most mystics before this nerf could at 45 solo 44++ mobs, unless 44 gives a wicked good spell. I seem to remember before this nerf a thread about a mystic routinely soloing green++ mobs met with mostly skepticism and disbelief. I'm not going to dispute that haze was overpowered, but mystics certainly weren't uber soloers before this nerf.</span><div></div>

[Banditman]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div><div>Raids where the tank is invulnerable aren't fun. </div><hr></blockquote> While I agree with this statement, making the MT mitigate 70+ percent and avoid 100 percent are the ONLY reason raids are even possible atm. If a MT was getting hit consistently by the type of damage Epics put out there simply arent enough HP in the world. When Ar'ticae, one of the lower tier of Epic mobs, can turn on my Mystic and casually one shot me (4434 HP, standard melee swing), something is WRONG.  I don't expect to tank the mob, not even close, but I don't expect to be killed in under 2 seconds either.</span><div></div>

[Stromul]

What they need to do is offer an option to repec.  It's rediculous that they are going to make all these changes and we are stuck as the class we orginally chose.  What if I don't like the class now?  I stuck with all these changes FORCED upon me.  My only other option is to reroll or quit.  That's my biggest beef with the changes. <div></div>

[Sute]

<P>Well alot of high-end player are already leaving the game, some have left and others are leaving each day and others are on the verge of leaving. I can see this next change to make many more players leave. Theres too much change in this game, it feels like Beta still.</P> <P>Maybe SOE thinks that they have too many players and want to cut some so are doing these changes so that some quit. If so, Good work SOE.</P> <P> </P>

[Imri]

<P>I can definately agree that one of the biggest factors in people abusing avoidance and mitigation is because mobs hit extremely hard. It's like running through nek castle and avoiding the archfiend in Deirdre's room. Tha mob can hit for 3k damage. Name me one race/class combo at 30-40 that has that much health. I state the level range, because that is the average for most people in there. Of the list only guardians in the very high 30s start breaking the 3k life mark. Mobs like that can consistantly put out a lot more damage than can be healed against, or even taken in more than one or two hits in a row. </P> <P>I'm all for challenge and balance, but things like this are the core reason prople look at abusing the system as it is.</P>

[Platfing]

<P>Here's my opinion on this matter, and I believe that it's shared by the majority.  Instead of taking away abilities, SOE should <U><EM><STRONG>give</STRONG></EM></U> others abilities to achieve balance.  Only in extreme cases should abilities be lessened or taken away.  This may mean they have to increase the difficulty of mobs, but at least that wouldn't <STRONG><EM><U>constantly</U></EM></STRONG> alienate the players.  </P> <P>Which would you rather have, a useful skill made completely useless or a mob made 10% harder because they had to balance an entire archtype?  I can tell you which one I would pick.  </P> <P>Personally, I can tell you that if they badly nerf my level 41 paladin like they did with mystics, I'm done with this game and won't look back.    </P>

[Rpgplay]

<P>Good explanation moorgard.</P> <P>I have a question about current tressure rewards due to the difficulty of the mob and how you might change this to make the reward better fit the risk.</P> <P><FONT color=#0066ff>"If you're satisfied to hunt green solo mobs to avoid challenge, your rewards should reflect that choice. By the same token, taking on tough group content should be much more rewarding." -Moorgard</FONT></P> <P>From my experience the tressure and even the chance of a chest is <U>random</U> except getting a chest from named and raid mobs.</P> <P>I was wondering if for example you take on a named mob with 2 people (which in some cases is really risky) and defeat him there should be more reward or chance to get better stuff than having a full group, or having one group take on an X2 raid mob.</P> <P>Im not sure about the mechanics of the game to even know if this is possible, but it seems like a good idea.</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>platfinger hit the nail on the head. Its just bad principle to uproot a player and expect him to be okay because of your screw up as a development team and poor planning and management.</P> <P>While im sure that most hate to hear it said like that, the bottom line is that is exactly what it amount too. You made a bad decision and didnt think it out, and now the players have to suffer for that mis calculation...</P> <P>and even more so, you get upset when players dont like the move you make...</P> <P>Thats just foolish to the 10th degree.</P>

[Traldan Omegafyre]

<span><blockquote><hr>Dovifat wrote:<span> Refugee of Wish, former citizen of Windok  </span><hr></blockquote>LOL, good to hear I'm not the only one here.<span>:smileytongue:</span></span><span></span><div></div>

[Aethn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I'm still not going to outline the changes in full detail, I can tell you that one of the things we want to do is reinforce the archetype roles. Fighters are about tanking; scouts and mages are about damage; priests are about healing. Those are the broadest strokes I can describe, and obviously there's a lot of refinement that will take place at the class and subclass level. We'll be making changes to spells and arts in order to meet those goals and reinforce the element of challenge that is absolutely necessary for this kind of game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>One thing you need to be VERY careful about here is bringing the "Holy Trinity" back into being.  That was a death nail to many in EQ1, even to you.  Dont make me go back and post the dozens and dozens of quotes from you against the "Holy Trinity" from oldschool Mobhunter.com</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Holy Trinity will kill this game for thousands of players.  If you dont believe me, just make the "Holy TRinity" mandatory to EXP with and watch your subscriptions tumble.</DIV>

[Mordith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aethn wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Holy Trinity will kill this game for thousands of players.  If you dont believe me, just make the "Holy TRinity" mandatory to EXP with and watch your subscriptions tumble.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I would hit the cancel button so fast your head would spin.</DIV>

[Finnmacool1]

<DIV>Just another example of soe releasing the game before it was ready. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having to completely rework tradeskills,combat, and spells within 6 months of release? Total joke.</DIV>

[Styk]

My only fear is that when finally do balance out dps from scouts vs tanks... us Figther types will get left in the dust, knowing SoE's reputation instead of fixing what is broke they will nerf a class to give the apperance that they fixed another class, If it comes out that being a tank after the defense/priest/pet class, scout dps changes come in = you cant damage anything + your defense = sux then as a another poster has stated above give me the option to /reclass I love my berserker but after 6 months of nerf nerf nerf, break skill , every patch increase power costs of combat arts/spells across the board etc It gets tiring <div></div>

[IsaacMorningst]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Bishopp wrote:From my trolling of the boards, this extreme flux is common to virtually all classes.  Combat is undergoing a major overhaul, the effects of which we can only speculate.  Virtually all archetypes and classes are looking at serious reworking which may ultimately change the nature of each class. <hr> </blockquote> <div>I can understand why folks could feel uncertain right now. So far all I've been able to do is hint at some of the changes coming, and how they will affect all adventure classes in one way or another. It's not that I want to be vague on purpose, but rather because I want to make sure the changes make it through our internal testing process before talking about them in detail. We'll be playing them ourselves before moving them to the Test server.</div> <div> </div> <div>We've spent a lot of time discussing the scope of these changes and how far we should take them. Believe me, the issue of maintaining the confidence of players is not lost on any of us, nor is the natural resistance that everyone feels toward change to one degree or another. We discussed ideas ranging from minor tweaks to the existing system and living with some broken aspects of it to a complete revamp of everything. Ultimately we had to decide upon our priorities and make the changes we believe to be necessary for a healthy and fun game while remaining true to the world we have established.</div> <div> </div> <div>And yes, fun has to be at the core of this. Raids where the tank is invulnerable aren't fun. Soloing without any element of risk isn't fun, either. Both situations may seem that way for a while, but ultimately the lack of challenge will cause boredom.</div> <div> </div> <div>Some have complained that recent decisions like the population changes in many zones are making the game too easy. Well, it's easy in part because of the way combat works. We want content to be accessible but we don't want it to be trivial. If you're satisfied to hunt green solo mobs to avoid challenge, your rewards should reflect that choice. By the same token, taking on tough group content should be much more rewarding.</div> <div> </div> <div>So yes, fundamental changes are required. We tried a lot of new gameplay elements and mechanics when we designed EverQuest II, and some of them have worked much better than others. We could live with that and say "Well, the game is what it is," or we can make a choice now, while the game is still young, to make changes that will be better for the long haul and ultimately make this a more fun game. We think the latter is a better choice.</div> <div> </div> <div>While I'm still not going to outline the changes in full detail, I can tell you that one of the things we want to do is reinforce the archetype roles. Fighters are about tanking; scouts and mages are about damage; priests are about healing. Those are the broadest strokes I can describe, and obviously there's a lot of refinement that will take place at the class and subclass level. We'll be making changes to spells and arts in order to meet those goals and reinforce the element of challenge that is absolutely necessary for this kind of game.</div> <div> </div> <div>Though many of you will still be hesitant about the upcoming changes until you can experience them for yourselves, I hope you can see that we aren't doing this lightheartedly or without a lot of discussion and planning. We only want to do this once, and we want to do it right.</div><hr></blockquote>Others have pointed it out earlier, but I'm actually in awe.  This is one of the <b><i>BEST</i></b> definitions of Beta I've seen in a long time.</span><div></div>

[Zerofault]

<P>Major changes that were hinted at by moorguard is the ONLY thing that will bring me back...  The WHOLE game needs overhauled and I don't care how long it takes as long as it gets done.. I WILL come back then and I hope that they make the changes that I feel the game needs.  This game was obviously rushed out, nothing about the game feels complete or polished.  I feel so bad about leaving the game and my guild, but I just couldn't take the combat, the random thoughtless changes to raids, the lack of any real fulfillment in raiding after beating the encounter the first time..</P> <P> </P> <P>I Praise you SOE, a massive makeover is what this game needs, and I beg you , please get it right.. if you need testing before test server.. I'll do it... send me an e-mail...</P> <P> </P> <P>Lodoz</P>

[Twoof]

One group is not the other... One group could have the tank in ebon gear, the next one is normal fulginate. By fixing the game for the first group, it will be to hard for the normal group, fix it for the normal group, and it's to easy for the ebon group. Rare, expensive armor should make a difference however, why buy it otherwise? This simple example, plus the fact that you already totally @^%$# up my Alchemist, is what makes me wonder what the new changes are going to do to certain group make ups. In another post you said that fights are going to last longer, so that chanters have something to do. What does that do to all groups who don't have a chanter? <div></div>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Imrill wrote:<BR> <P>I'm all for challenge and balance, but things like this are the core reason prople look at abusing the system as it is.<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is also why I keep pointing out that we aren't just changing one aspect of combat and ignoring all the others. Besides the damage that all the classes dish out and take, we are also looking at NPC damage, NPC hitpoints, healing potency, buffs, items, and probably more stuff I can't remember at 12:30 in the morning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The solution isn't just to buff raid mobs, or nerf fighters, or enhance scouts, or equalize healing. It's a combination of a whole bunch of factors, and adjusting them takes time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It no surprise to see the "paying to play beta" comments, because pretty much every MMO gets accused of the same thing. Certainly I'd rather we had done everything right the first time, and that major changes weren't needed. The reason MMOs are so tricky to make is that it's so hard to predict how your content and systems will stand up under the scrutiny of thousands upon thousands of people beating on the game at the same time. With a linear single-player game, you can pretty much figure out everything a player can possibly do with it. When you've got a bunch of players cooperating to achieve a shared goal in a game world that is built to be non-linear, the number of permutations you have to account for is staggering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I point this out not to excuse mistakes, but to perhaps shed some light on why major changes are so common in the MMO space.</DIV>

[Ibis]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div><div>  The reason MMOs are so tricky to make is that it's so hard to predict how your content and systems will stand up under the scrutiny of thousands upon thousands of people beating on the game at the same time. </div><hr></blockquote> I suggest <img src="http://www.usa.husqvarna.com/Files/products/large/H110-0035.gif"> to beat on EQ2.</span><div></div>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Moorgard wrote: <P>The solution isn't just to buff raid mobs, or nerf fighters, or enhance scouts, or equalize healing. It's a combination of a whole bunch of factors, and adjusting them takes time.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As with the loot tables, the mages are forgotten.</DIV>

[Ishnar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IsaacMorningstar wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Others have pointed it out earlier, but I'm actually in awe.  This is one of the <B><I>BEST</I></B> definitions of Beta I've seen in a long time.<BR></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, this is EQ2 1.0 becomming EQ2 2.0</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually I think it says 1.45 or some such at login.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ishnar</DIV> <DIV>your game experience may vary</DIV>

[gooli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Imrill wrote:<BR> <P>I'm all for challenge and balance, but things like this are the core reason prople look at abusing the system as it is.<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is also why I keep pointing out that we aren't just changing one aspect of combat and ignoring all the others. Besides the damage that all the classes dish out and take, we are also looking at NPC damage, NPC hitpoints, healing potency, buffs, items, and probably more stuff I can't remember at 12:30 in the morning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The solution isn't just to buff raid mobs, or nerf fighters, or enhance scouts, or equalize healing. It's a combination of a whole bunch of factors, and adjusting them takes time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It no surprise to see the "paying to play beta" comments, because pretty much every MMO gets accused of the same thing. Certainly I'd rather we had done everything right the first time, and that major changes weren't needed. The reason MMOs are so tricky to make is that it's so hard to predict how your content and systems will stand up under the scrutiny of thousands upon thousands of people beating on the game at the same time. With a linear single-player game, you can pretty much figure out everything a player can possibly do with it. <FONT color=#ff0000>When you've got a bunch of players cooperating to achieve a shared goal in a game world that is built to be non-linear, the number of permutations you have to account for is staggering.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I point this out not to excuse mistakes, but to perhaps shed some light on why major changes are so common in the MMO space.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/sarcasm</P> <P>Permutations like taking a skill from adept I to adept III and watching it do nothing or worse, actually drop in effectiveness .  Things like this are impossible to predict or test.....</P> <P>/sarcasm</P> <P>Fixing a skill so it works isn't brain surgery especially when it comes to changing the number on a buff from +10 to +17.  Why we still have errors like this(I am refering to a specific berserker skill called war chant at the moment which when carried from adept one(+12 str) to adept III it reads as a buff +10 str) is beyoind logic. It's an absolute failure of the "development" team to spend the 20 mintutes it would take to test the skill set of a class.  There are more than 3 skills like this in most classes.  They have been reported/bugged/posted about and still are not fixed.  The coding change for this takes about 30 seconds to do.  WHAT EXACTLY IS THE HOLD UP?  </P> <p>Message Edited by goolian on <span class=date_text>04-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:58 AM</span>

[nithrill]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some have complained that recent decisions like the population changes in many zones are making the game too easy. Well, it's easy in part because of the way combat works. We want content to be accessible but we don't want it to be trivial. If you're satisfied to hunt green solo mobs to avoid challenge, your rewards should reflect that choice. By the same token, taking on tough group content should be much more rewarding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, by that analogy are you saying that in the new combat system gray double up mobs 14 levels below your character (yes, that's right fourteen) will no longer be able to mess you up unless you get appropriate reward for it?</P> <P>It sure looks like it ...</P> <P>... but based on SOEs previous actions you are probably only thinking about mobs that are higher than your character. :smileysad:</P> <P>I sure think that SOE would start swingin the NERF bat if any class was able to take down mobs 14 levels above their own with no risk.</P> <P>In my opinion this is one of the things that realy make this game not fun ... along with not having a 'looking for more/wizard/warlock/etc.' group flag.</P>

[nithrill]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aethn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I'm still not going to outline the changes in full detail, I can tell you that one of the things we want to do is reinforce the archetype roles. Fighters are about tanking; scouts and mages are about damage; priests are about healing. Those are the broadest strokes I can describe, and obviously there's a lot of refinement that will take place at the class and subclass level. We'll be making changes to spells and arts in order to meet those goals and reinforce the element of challenge that is absolutely necessary for this kind of game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>One thing you need to be VERY careful about here is bringing the "Holy Trinity" back into being.  That was a death nail to many in EQ1, even to you.  Dont make me go back and post the dozens and dozens of quotes from you against the "Holy Trinity" from oldschool Mobhunter.com</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Holy Trinity will kill this game for thousands of players.  If you dont believe me, just make the "Holy TRinity" mandatory to EXP with and watch your subscriptions tumble.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hate to burst your bubble ...</P> <P>... but the holy trinity in this game is: berserker, templar and warlock</P>

[Blackfoot_cof]

You know I feel the same way. I haven't played at all this week and very little last week. Until the combat changes are 'offical' I don't have any interest in playin. I'm not going to play only to find out that my char has been nerfed.... oh excuse me... 'adjusted' so it's not solo-playable, and I have to re-roll. And there is no way you can tell me that with a total revamp of combat, healing, npc hp that there are not going to be people who chars are useless. I'm temped just to cancelled for 2-3 months until its been release, fixed, readjusted and fixed again. <div></div>

[Imri]

<DIV>I know no matter what some of these changes will no doubt anger a large portion of the player base. I keep hoping that whatever the changes may be, that they don't change the capabilities of classes that don't abuse the flaws in the current system. I know they need to be done, and I am all for it. I also know this could so easily not work at all as intended as some stuff just doesn't get spotted in a test environement. The end result though is what ever system is put into place, some players will find a way to abuse it.</DIV>

[Diapause]

<DIV>_________________________________</DIV> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I point this out not to excuse mistakes, but to perhaps shed some light on why major changes are so common in the MMO space.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wow, MG. You sure know how to dodge a question. The problem with the user community isn't that a change is needed. Or even that fact that a huge or significant revamp is needed. It is that your track record of testing and evaluating those changes so that they don't need to be waiting to be fixed 6 months after the revamp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't reply back to me and say that 'All MMO's are in constant state of change'. Obviously. But you gloss over the fact that your track record for catching glaring ommissions in the test environment is terrible. So let me restate, what part of this combat change is gonna fix:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Quest that are broken and incomplete.</DIV> <DIV>2. Spells that do not upgrade linearly</DIV> <DIV>3. Feedback from test community that doesn't make into your QC team (I mean the whole BETA team is still complaining you didn't listen to them)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I'm kind of caught in the middle, I thoroughly enjoy the game still, but it annoys me to no end the Dev team is still workin on a stable combat system this late. It may have been more prudent to publish this out with your first expansion pack and balance the changes with the new spells/arts that will come with that. I mean SOMEONE is looking at what you are doing now and applying it to the future expansion pack right MG???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well I'll see how things go. Hopefully this will be one fix you guys can nail on the head and doing a decent job with. But don't say I told you so if 3 months after so you Nerf STA down to oblivion because it provides to much for a power pool (I'm just yapping.. don't do it!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Diapause</DIV> <DIV>Lvl47 Templar - Lavastorm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Maddcovv]

<DIV>I haven't played in 3 weeks since the mystic nerf and I don't even want to anymore. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maddcovv</DIV> <DIV>43 Mystic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Moorgard wrote: <P>The solution isn't just to buff raid mobs, or nerf fighters, or enhance scouts, or equalize healing. It's a combination of a whole bunch of factors, and adjusting them takes time.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As with the loot tables, the mages are forgotten.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Oh we get mentioned now and then, and when asked for clearification, we get "forgotten".

[Ramtaku]

<P>Moorgard,</P> <P>I appreciate what you're saying and have some ability to understand the complexity of what your development team is undertaking.</P> <P>However, these are very significant changes that will potentially impact every choice I (we) have made since selecting our initial character class.</P> <P>The reason there is no motivation to play is that any choices made regarding the development of our characters may be the wrong choice after the changes.</P> <P>With as little information as you've been able to provide, knowing which stat to emphasize, which spell to upgrade, even which character to play is impossible.</P> <P>I simply don't think its right to be billed during this period and I find myself resenting the money I've already paid for the last few and next few weeks.</P> <P>Create an alt and mess around or spend time crafting until the changes are in place is not an acceptable alternative.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Rakn]

"It no surprise to see the "paying to play beta" comments, because pretty much every MMO gets accused of the same thing." what does a company expect when they make huge game changes that should have been made in beta? <div></div>

[Imri]

I think the biggest problem for most people is the way this was initially mentioned to the public. I know I for one would of been a lot more receptive if it was stated that on test is an ongoing <STRONG>EXPERIMENT</STRONG> to revamp the game classes and combat system. None of us will really know what the end plan is until it is almost ready, and can only experiment with a partial update.

[Culann Heartsto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Imrill wrote:<BR> <P>I'm all for challenge and balance, but things like this are the core reason prople look at abusing the system as it is.<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is also why I keep pointing out that we aren't just changing one aspect of combat and ignoring all the others. Besides the damage that all the classes dish out and take, we are also looking at NPC damage, NPC hitpoints, healing potency, buffs, items, and probably more stuff I can't remember at 12:30 in the morning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The solution isn't just to buff raid mobs, or nerf fighters, or enhance scouts, or equalize healing. It's a combination of a whole bunch of factors, and adjusting them takes time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It no surprise to see the "paying to play beta" comments, because pretty much every MMO gets accused of the same thing. Certainly I'd rather we had done everything right the first time, and that major changes weren't needed. The reason MMOs are so tricky to make is that it's so hard to predict how your content and systems will stand up under the scrutiny of thousands upon thousands of people beating on the game at the same time. With a linear single-player game, you can pretty much figure out everything a player can possibly do with it. When you've got a bunch of players cooperating to achieve a shared goal in a game world that is built to be non-linear, the number of permutations you have to account for is staggering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I point this out not to excuse mistakes, but to perhaps shed some light on why major changes are so common in the MMO space.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Guild Wars won't, at least more than likely.  No monthly fees for Guild Wars...only the cover price for the box.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Hazdrubel]

<div></div>Well, there is the option to reroll just to cover your bases in the event your main is "transformed" into something completely unlike you wanted in the first place.  It's a gamble, but it has come down to guessing which profession wont get nerf smacked - too much.  But in answer to your question:<hr>"With the Game in Extreme Flux, What Incentive Do I have to play?"<hr>The answer?   None.  <span>:smileysad:</span>Do you continue to commit your time to a class you might not recognize in the future, or do you cut your losses now?This is like playing baseball, and you come up to bat in the 5th inning when the umpire informs you that: 2 strikes are now an out, the distance between the bases is twice as long, you have to swing with one hand, you have to count to 20 before running to first base if you get a hit, and the fences were moved back an additional 500 feet. <span></span><div></div>

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> nithrill wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some have complained that recent decisions like the population changes in many zones are making the game too easy. Well, it's easy in part because of the way combat works. We want content to be accessible but we don't want it to be trivial. If you're satisfied to hunt green solo mobs to avoid challenge, your rewards should reflect that choice. By the same token, taking on tough group content should be much more rewarding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>... <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, by that analogy are you saying that in the new combat system gray double up mobs 14 levels below your character (yes, that's right fourteen) will no longer be able to mess you up unless you get appropriate reward for it?</P> <P>It sure looks like it ...</P> <P>... but based on SOEs previous actions you are probably only thinking about mobs that are higher than your character. :smileysad:</P> <P>I sure think that SOE would start swingin the NERF bat if any class was able to take down mobs 14 levels above their own with no risk.</P> <P>In my opinion this is one of the things that realy make this game not fun ... along with not having a 'looking for more/wizard/warlock/etc.' group flag.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>One of the issues is that this is NOT true for all classes. Some classes can take green ^^ or yellow ^ without too much trouble. While others complain about grey ^^s beating them silly. </P> <P>I say a L47 wizard trying to solo a L50^^ last night... it was entertaining seeing how fast he died. But I've seen other classes soloing at that level they win, or at least do MUCH better.</P> <P>Part of the issue is trying to better balance the game at all levels, so there isn't such  a HUGE discrepency.</P>

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ramtaku12 wrote:<BR> <P>Moorgard,</P> <P>I appreciate what you're saying and have some ability to understand the complexity of what your development team is undertaking.</P> <P>However, these are very significant changes that will potentially impact every choice I (we) have made since selecting our initial character class.</P> <P>The reason there is no motivation to play is that any choices made regarding the development of our characters may be the wrong choice after the changes.</P> <P>With as little information as you've been able to provide, knowing which stat to emphasize, which spell to upgrade, even which character to play is impossible.</P> <P>I simply don't think its right to be billed during this period and I find myself resenting the money I've already paid for the last few and next few weeks.</P> <P>Create an alt and mess around or spend time crafting until the changes are in place is not an acceptable alternative.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why? You're playing the game. If they game isn't still fun in its current state, then you shouldn't be playing it. Bottom line is, that it is the consumer's responsibility to choose what is best for them.</P> <P>If what I'm reading is correct, you want Sony to give you the game for free, just because its not everything you think it should be? Or even everthing they're striving to make it...? Either way, that's not what you pay for. You pay for the right to play it as it is, not how you wish it was.</P> <P>-------------</P> <P>Someone else said it already... This isn't a paid Beta. This is a live game. v1.0 when it was released, was playable, but had obvious areas of improvement in many areas. If it wasn't playable, there wouldn't be anyone logged in, and there wouldn't be players having a blast playing it.</P> <P>Was Word 1.0 a beta for Word 2003? No.  Word 1.0 was just how it was initially released. Over time things evolve and change. Its just that with MMOs, they evolve real time, vs stand alone apps which evolve over time through version updates. With stand alone appes, you aren't required to take v 1.1 if you don't want it, but with MMOs, you have to accept all patches and updates. Thats the only difference.</P>

[Za]

<P><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hazdrubel wrote:<BR> Well, there is the option to reroll just to cover your bases in the event your main is "transformed" into something completely unlike you wanted in the first place.  It's a gamble, but it has come down to guessing which profession wont get nerf smacked - too much.  But in answer to your question:<BR><BR> <HR> "With the Game in Extreme Flux, What Incentive Do I have to play?"<BR> <HR> <BR>The answer?   None.  <SPAN>:smileysad:</SPAN><BR><BR>Do you continue to commit your time to a class you might not recognize in the future, or do you cut your losses now?<BR><BR>This is like playing baseball, and you come up to bat in the 5th inning when the umpire informs you that: 2 strikes are now an out, the distance between the bases is twice as long, you have to swing with one hand, you have to count to 20 before running to first base if you get a hit, and the fences were moved back an additional 500 feet. <BR><SPAN></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1. Thats not a good anaolgy. But if you have to use it... Have they ever changed rules in sports? YES. Year to year, rules are always being tweaked. Do players deal with them? Yes!</P> <P><BR>2. From day 1, all we knew was...</P> <UL> <LI>Tanks will take hits...</LI> <LI>Priests will heal...</LI> <LI>Scouts will do damage...</LI> <LI>Mages will Cast....</LI></UL> <DIV>Well, today, we know that some of that is not true. Some of the core isn't working that way...</DIV> <DIV>So if a guardian is mad because after these changes, he can't do as much damage... why? His original role was to always be a tank, not a dps class. Yes, the above is oversimplified, and doesn't include the specifc changes that take place as class and subclass levels, but the general concept still applies. Monks are damage and agility oriented tanks. Compared to other tanks, they won't mitigate as much damage, but will dish it out better. Bard derivitives are support oriented Scouts. They give up melee damage output compared to other scouts for more utility roles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they keep that concept in mind then anyone unhappy with their char after all is said and done was playing for the wrong reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, (<STRONG>only an example, none of this is real</STRONG>. hehe) if you played a bard for 40 levels, becasue they could tank better than a guardian, melee better than a scout, and had a 50hp per tick heal... Do you have the right to complain when all that got nerfed and you were put more in line with everyone else? Sure, you could say you chose to play becasue bards were the class you liked best, but you only liked them becasue they were retardedly broken, and in a sence you wanted to exploit that. So you got 40 levels of exploitation, you should be happy. If you wanted to play a tank class, you should have picked one that should be good at tanking, despite the fact that for the moment, the broken class could do it just as well. If you aren't trying to take advantage of the situation, then what you end up with should be very close to what you were originaly supposed to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its just that people have latched onto a broken rule set, and want to change the things that hurt them, but keep the good stuff. Thats not how balance works though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Imrill wrote:<BR>I think the biggest problem for most people is the way this was initially mentioned to the public. I know I for one would of been a lot more receptive if it was stated that on test is an ongoing <STRONG>EXPERIMENT</STRONG> to revamp the game classes and combat system. None of us will really know what the end plan is until it is almost ready, and can only experiment with a partial update.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They did say that. The said it was on test as they tweaked and tested the whole system. Thats what an experiment is...

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diapause wrote:<BR> <DIV>_________________________________</DIV> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I point this out not to excuse mistakes, but to perhaps shed some light on why major changes are so common in the MMO space.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wow, MG. You sure know how to dodge a question. The problem with the user community isn't that a change is needed. Or even that fact that a huge or significant revamp is needed. It is that your track record of testing and evaluating those changes so that they don't need to be waiting to be fixed 6 months after the revamp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't reply back to me and say that 'All MMO's are in constant state of change'. Obviously. But you gloss over the fact that your track record for catching glaring ommissions in the test environment is terrible. So let me restate, what part of this combat change is gonna fix:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Quest that are broken and incomplete.</DIV> <DIV>2. Spells that do not upgrade linearly</DIV> <DIV>3. Feedback from test community that doesn't make into your QC team (I mean the whole BETA team is still complaining you didn't listen to them)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I'm kind of caught in the middle, I thoroughly enjoy the game still, but it annoys me to no end the Dev team is still workin on a stable combat system this late. It may have been more prudent to publish this out with your first expansion pack and balance the changes with the new spells/arts that will come with that. I mean SOMEONE is looking at what you are doing now and applying it to the future expansion pack right MG???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well I'll see how things go. Hopefully this will be one fix you guys can nail on the head and doing a decent job with. But don't say I told you so if 3 months after so you Nerf STA down to oblivion because it provides to much for a power pool (I'm just yapping.. don't do it!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Diapause</DIV> <DIV>Lvl47 Templar - Lavastorm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'll help you out.</P> <P>1. And they've fixed hundreds of quests so far, and added hundreds more. The content teams is doing its jobs. Its alot easier for you to point out the quests that aren't fixed than to objectively point out the ones that were fixed or added because it suits your argument. But its not like they've never fixed a broken quest, and its not like the majority of quests are broken.</P> <P>2. This is the silly one... If the high end game is currently being redesigned, and players are already out of wack with what they want, why the heII would they "fix" the spell progressions to make players even <STRONG>more</STRONG> powerful? I've seen this question before and it never makes sence. If the App1 spell is a little too powerful or not working right, what do you think the Master version of that spell would be if it scaled linearly!?</P> <P>I expect that when all the balance work is done, they need to take account for the different spell progressions. But that in itself is a balance to make the App1s functional, but keeping the Adept and Master levels worth getting, but not obscenely overpowered.</P> <P>3. Not responding and not listening are 2 entirely different things. QCs job is not to get things fixed. Its to point out flaws so that design and development know where their flaws are. Just becasue you can point out a problem doesn't mean you're qualified to fix it. </P> <DIV>------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Based on the rest of your post, you're doomed to dis-satisfaction with any MMO. You may want to concider giving up now. No matter what they do with this round of changes, until they see all the hundreds of thousands of little strategies we all come up with in use, they won't be able to tell if its working as intended. Its simply not as trivial as some of you make it out to be. Its easy to make things horribly easy, its easy to make things darn near impossible, but finding that sweet spot... Its as they say "easy to learn, but impossible to master". There will always need to be changes to reflect player evalution.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>04-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:02 PM</span>

[Gno]

<div></div><blockquote><hr> Moorgard wrote: [snip...] And yes, fun has to be at the core of this. Raids where the tank is invulnerable aren't fun. Soloing without any element of risk isn't fun, either. Both situations may seem that way for a while, but ultimately the lack of challenge will cause boredom. Some have complained that recent decisions like the population changes in many zones are making the game too easy. Well, it's easy in part because of the way combat works. We want content to be accessible but we don't want it to be trivial. If you're satisfied to hunt green solo mobs to avoid challenge, your rewards should reflect that choice. By the same token, taking on tough group content should be much more rewarding.  [snip...]  While I'm still not going to outline the changes in full detail, I can tell you that one of the things we want to do is reinforce the archetype roles. Fighters are about tanking; scouts and mages are about damage; priests are about healing. Those are the broadest strokes I can describe, and obviously there's a lot of refinement that will take place at the class and subclass level. We'll be making changes to spells and arts in order to meet those goals and reinforce the element of challenge that is absolutely necessary for this kind of game. [snip...] <hr></blockquote> I'm sorry that I haven't had time lately to read all the posts on this issue, but here's my take on the insight Moorgard provided. I remain guardedly optimistic about the upcoming revamp, but feel that my optimism has less and less of a basis as more information emerges. Moorgard's statement above has some glaring misconceptions from my perspective. They are bound to be correct for some players. They are not correct for me. I doubt they are correct for many of the 1 million plus subscribers to that other game. Perhaps SOE has resigned EQ2 to becoming an experimental platform for a niche market, but the rhetoric I've read earlier hasn't seemed to indicate that. Here are a few observations regarding "fun." Most obviously, what's fun for some is boring or worse to others. What's fun for me one evening will be repellant on another and yet most enjoyable on later nights. Here's where the first statement quoted above begins to run into trouble. I guarantee you that after some especially challenging days, coming home and "soloing without any element of risk" or doing mind numbing crafting is indeed exactly the fun I'm after. It is absolutely not that they "may seem so for a while." For me they will BE so from time to time and are a required component of a fun game. My tenth character was a "Slayer of Goblins" when he left the Isle of Refuge and most of the time spent blasting 5,000 trivial goblins was fun. If it hadn't been accompanied by semi-frequent chest drops and other "rewards" it would have been less so, especially since the title garners no gameplay benefits. As I see it, risk vs reward arguments in games are way overblown. My risks in EQ2 are not whether or not my character will die, but whether or not my playing EQ2 instead of doing something else (like exercising) will cause serious harm. For me, when it comes to a computer game, what's fun is usually determined more by the delusion and psychological trickery of feeling rewarded for doing whatever I feel like, than it is by compounding a delusion of risk with some greater reward. Granted, all of Moorgard's description holds true some of the time and is also a required component of a fun game. However to remain fun, EQ2 can not be one way or the other, but both and more besides. That's where reading: "that one of the things we want to do is reinforce the archetype roles. Fighters are about tanking; scouts and mages are about damage; priests are about healing." and that the EQ2 team needs to "reinforce the element of challenge that is absolutely necessary for this kind of game." increases my doubts and concerns. One the one hand, that could be great. I like my characters to be notably different from each other. Between my wife and I we're getting characters in almost all the subclasses into their 20s before going further. I also sometime enjoy a challenge, if it's not merely disguised bashing up against randomness. On the other hand, I want to be able to solo and more importantly duo ALL of them with roughly the same level of difficulty, reward and enjoyment. As importantly, I want to be able to solo and duo them and be "rewarded" well enough that my characters can be outfitted as well as groupers and be able to go wherever they can go and successfully group whenever I feel like it. If the EQ2 team is giving these fundamental requirements of a "fun" MMORPG the higher priority they deserve, above the greater risk yielding greater rewards conundrum, then the revamp will be a good thing. If they revert to being unduly influenced by the tiny vocal minority of hard core competitive gamers, then EQ2 will probably enjoy its small niche market. I have absolutely no desire to play a well differentiated arch type whose uniqueness has relegated them to a group supporting role. Nor will I play characters who must group or raid to receive rewards which make them notably more capable, able to continue leveling rapidly, or contribute noticeably to a typical group. I most certainly do not want to feel increasing pressure to buy items with real money in order to have fun. If combat is becoming more challenging as SOE begins to overtly get their cut, I would be foolish not to view the coincidence with skepticism. Don't get me wrong. I think it would be great if there were a lot more content that actually was challenging; where players' skill, abilities and intelligence were tested. More quests that involved puzzles would be fun. Adventuring that enabled solo "heros" to accomplish feats that normally required raids, through daring, trickery, logic and extraordinarily appropriate use of spells or abilities figured out through a progressive chain of encounters, would be fun. But those are other niche possibilities EQ and EQ2 have not deliberately included. They're just ones that fit my definitions of fun far more than grouping and raiding ever will and they're not things I'd find fun all the time. One fundamental aspect of "fun" is being able to do what you want to do when you want to do it with positive consequences. There are plenty of different aspects. The EQ2 team's challenge is to integrate as many as possible, not return to a more limited vision.<div></div>

[zorbdan]

<P>Define playable ? Sure I can go home stick the cd in my pc and it loads up , I can make a character and run him around hitting things and casting spells . The problem is representation and advertisement and statements made in the media outlets , in packaging and in the game itself . </P> <P>If word 1.0 stated that you could load it up and start typing words , but instead when you loaded it and started typing words when you hit the letter 'a' it instead put in a '1' and when you typed the letter 'b' it would pop in a '7' and when you hit 'c' you would get a '?' and the remaining letters worked the way they were supposed to , there would be unhappy customers . Sure you can type some words with it but anything with an a , b , or c in it would not be possible . THAT IS THE PROBLEM ! And that is the difference anyone who defends SOE does't seem to grasp . Some of the problems are almost that simple , the spell/combat arts issues are a fine example , the froglock issue is a fine example , i could go on but I won't .</P> <P>I am with the guy who said he regrets the fees he has been paying , because if I got word 1.0 home and it was pumping out garble instead of words during the course of typing a document for work or letter to my friend/reletives ,  I would be wanting my money back . </P> <P>Now lets take this a step further .. word 1.0 charges a monthly fee to use thier program and they get your feedback respond by saying they are going to fix the problems with a, b and c in a software patch so you can now type words . Patch date comes and 'a' now pops up and 'a' but 'b' now pops an 'f' and 'f' now pops up a '?' and 'c' now pops up '/' . What would you think about this and what would you do ? </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[EvilIguana9]

The problem, Moorgard, is that there are tons and tons of bugs that could have easily been fixed had the programmers taken the time to test it out themselves.  Some are so glaringly obvious we really wonder if the developers ever even load up the game and play.  The worst are the ones that get "fixed" in a patch but are still broken 2 patches down the road.  If a programmer makes a change to a spell he should log in once the change gets pushed to test and try casting it to get at least a basic understanding of whether or not the change is working as intended.  People aren't perfect.  We can't write code and have it work the first time, every time.  But most mistakes tend to be relatively simple and pretty obvious when you actually run the code.  The fact that the game is a MMORPG does not excuse sloppiness.  <div></div>

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zorbdan wrote:<BR> <P>Define playable ? Sure I can go home stick the cd in my pc and it loads up , I can make a character and run him around hitting things and casting spells . <FONT color=#ff9900>Uhm... yeah, thats what you do in this game? What were you expecting?</FONT> The problem is representation and advertisement and statements made in the media outlets , in packaging and in the game itself . <FONT color=#ff9900>Like what?</FONT>  </P> <P>If word 1.0 stated that you could load it up and start typing words , but instead when you loaded it and started typing words when you hit the letter 'a' it instead put in a '1' and when you typed the letter 'b' it would pop in a '7' and when you hit 'c' you would get a '?' and the remaining letters worked the way they were supposed to , there would be unhappy customers . Sure you can type some words with it but anything with an a , b , or c in it would not be possible . THAT IS THE PROBLEM ! And that is the difference anyone who defends SOE does't seem to grasp . Some of the problems are almost that simple , the spell/combat arts issues are a fine example , the froglock issue is a fine example , i could go on but I won't . <FONT color=#ff9900>Becasue you can't. Your example is plain silly. If priests were casting nukes were the heal icons were, your analogy would be meaningful... but as the game plays it work fine for what it says it does. Yeah yea, the frog example... and example where nothing on the box says they were in game.. SOE mislead people through chat in saying that there was a quest to enable them when in fact they were still working on it... That example only entends so far, and its been worn out long ago. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>The game IS playable... it does everything any game of its kind does. Some of the details need to be fine tuned, but it all works. I can guarantee you there were plenty of things Word 1.0 was missing, and it wasn't without bugs. Thats what we have with the initial release of EQ2, an imperfect 1st revision of the new product. Subsequent revisions have fixed MANY things and future revisions will fix, change, and add things over time.</FONT></P> <P>I am with the guy who said he regrets the fees he has been paying , because if I got word 1.0 home and it was pumping out garble instead of words during the course of typing a document for work or letter to my friend/reletives ,  I would be wanting my money back . <FONT color=#ff9900>Then back in August you should have asked for a refund, or at the very least canceled your subscription, since it was so obviously not up to your standards. Thats what most people do when a product isn't what you want. They don't continue to use it and complain about the fact they don't like it. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Esp in this case... You've either gotten something out of playing the game for 6 months, in which case SOE deserves to be paid for that. Or you haven't, in which case all your chars are L1, you never touched the game, and you simply didn't cancel your account... which just makes no sence. Which was it?</FONT></P> <P>Now lets take this a step further .. word 1.0 charges a monthly fee to use thier program and they get your feedback respond by saying they are going to fix the problems with a, b and c in a software patch so you can now type words . Patch date comes and 'a' now pops up and 'a' but 'b' now pops an 'f' and 'f' now pops up a '?' and 'c' now pops up '/' . What would you think about this and what would you do ? </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I guess you just don't know. Some of us pay annual fees to get free future upgrades of MS Office products... In essence we are paying for future versions. Bug reports and feature requests are submitted all the time, but that doesn't mean you'll get it just cuz you asked for it... and MS in notorious for missing ship dates, lets not even go there.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>-------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>This is an MMO. The comparisions to off the shelf apps has its limits, but in general no software application currently sold in the retail market is perfect... Far from it. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>As a consumer, your <STRONG>responsibility </STRONG>is to spend your money wisely on things you want. SOE hasn't done anything to stop you from making those choices. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>But you certainly can't eat the food, then say it tasted a little funny and expect not to pay for it. If it tastes funny say something up front and <STRONG>STOP EATING IT</STRONG>. But once you've sloshed down 6 months worth of play you can't betch because you really didn't enjoy it as much as you'd have liked.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Iro]

I must agree with quite a few of the posts here. Basically, in short this game is LACKING. I love the graphics, the time I spend with friends adventuring is fun..BUT as a 47 defiler getting owned by Green ^^ and I have Excellent gear..its just our spells that seriously lack LARGE. I've decided, like most of my friends to hold of on renewing our accounts for a while until Sony figures out wether they are comming or going and on a personal note..unitl they fix the defiler. This isn't a "oh i'm quiting and going to wow" bs message, it's an honest message stating i'm getting quite sick of the devs not listening to players who genuinly want this game fix. I've already stated in other posts what's wrong with my class (Defiler) and the Difficulty vs Reward system is so pathetic that its laughable. Maybe we'll see you guys in a few months...maybe not. It really is too bad as I really enjoyed my time since beta but too many NEGATIVE changes and not enough Fixes in this game (Game should mean fun) to warrant my  on going support of this beta. <div></div>

[Imri]

I don't think it has to do anything with the game lacking. The problem is that people got very upset by the way this whole slew of changes was presented. At first we were all told existing problems that were going to be fixed were dropped to redo combat. That set off a lot of the fireworks still going. Now there is a general fear of how the changes will affect gameplay as we know it. Will we all be able to solo the same, better or worse? A lot of it is because on test you only get to see a partial picture. Only when the whole picture is presented will we know better what to really expect. One thing I am worried about is LU stuff being tested on the same server as the combat changes, instead of having a second test server with the combat changes and the LU stuff as well as a regular test server with just the game as it is on live servers plus the LU stuff. I hope SOE does have this internally, or it might lead to a problem they haven't foreseen. I also hope after the whole set of changes happends my character will be able to function same, and fight the same mobs I used to without having to take any significant step back. I also know what ever system gets put in place, some players will find a way to abuse. It's the nature of the beast. If that happens I just hope that it isn't an endless series of revamps after this one trying to keep players from abusing what is there, because that will never happen.

[Texasguy24]

<DIV>With the lack of details about upcoming changes, other than that they will be major I have had no reason to play. Basically, they are telling me I bought one game, but they are changing it to another. I am not happy about that.  I certainly am not wasting the real time, or in game money trying to advance in a game that may or may not exist after a patch. I think SoE is striving for new highs in inconsistancy, and doing a great job. I am assuming I will cancel at that patch, out of principal... perhaps SoE will surprise me by upgrading what I have to a superior product... but I doubt it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Better get it right, cause a lot of bugs/problems and I bet a lot of people give you the hatchet.. =/</DIV>

[Shandael]

<P>Just to add mine in as well, with all the drastic changes I've had very little desire or compulsion to log in and play either, and have found myself checking out the websites for Guild Wars and the new AC2 expansion, as well as renewing my subscription to TSO just to pass the time til something once again captures me fully.</P> <P>The tradeskills were completely changed beyond all recognition of how it was in the beginning, and I feel the same is occuring now with the adventuring aspect. I just don't see the reason to play. It's like spinning my wheels knowing that nothing really matters right now until things are finally left alone for a bit.</P> <P>I too am very seriously considering just saving my $25 a month that I'm spending on EQ2 and play other more stable games until SoE gets its act together and let us feel that our time investment in our characters is actually worth something, and not being completely tossed out every few months because they want to try something different.</P> <P>I swear, sometimes I feel that the dev staff of EQ2 are 8 year old children with severe attention deficit disorders. It's just madness to have everything changed so radically so much without any idea or understanding when it's all going to be over with so that we can actually enjoy our characters and the game.</P> <P>I'm just unsure of where the game is going, how everything is going to work from one week to the next. It's just too confusing...  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Ramtaku]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Why? You're playing the game. If they game isn't still fun in its current state, then you shouldn't be playing it. Bottom line is, that it is the consumer's responsibility to choose what is best for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I'm no longer playing it and haven't for three weeks. I cancelled my account on Exchange day (I won't even discuss that - still have that "yuck" feeling). Unfortunately, I cancelled the day after renewal and will now have 3.5 weeks to enjoy the forums :smileywink:</FONT></DIV> <P>If what I'm reading is correct, you want Sony to give you the game for free, just because its not everything you think it should be? Or even everthing they're striving to make it...? Either way, that's not what you pay for. You pay for the right to play it as it is, not how you wish it was.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Everything is as I think it should be? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I don't know where you've been, but what is happening now in terms of complete restructuring of the combat system is not a minor change. Priest rebalancing is not a minor change. It is not an unreasonable "expectation" that a gaming company with extensive experience release a game that is finished in its most fundemental aspects. Tweak mob strength in relationship to player strength, tweak spells as necessary, buff something here, nerf something there - okay, cool. Change major aspects of the combat mechanics? - unacceptable. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I don't want it for free - I payed for the game and have been paying for four months (+ EQ1 and all expansions to Omens for 1.5 years if we're talking about my relationship with this vendor). I want a refund for this period, not the period I was happily playing,  because I would not have invested as much effort into this character or likely this game if the proposed changes had been in place during my free trial period. In addition, this level of change and the time it is taking to implement it make the game unplayable for many (all have different underlying motivations, mine is to develop my character in an intelligent and interesting way - how can I do that now?). You're suggesting that the player base just suck up however SOE chooses to conduct its business relationship with us (me) - I find that attitude sheepish. </FONT>-------------</P> <P>Someone else said it already... This isn't a paid Beta. This is a live game. v1.0 when it was released, was playable, but had obvious areas of improvement in many areas. If it wasn't playable, there wouldn't be anyone logged in, and there wouldn't be players having a blast playing it.</P> <P>Was Word 1.0 a beta for Word 2003? No.  Word 1.0 was just how it was initially released. Over time things evolve and change. Its just that with MMOs, they evolve real time, vs stand alone apps which evolve over time through version updates. With stand alone appes, you aren't required to take v 1.1 if you don't want it, but with MMOs, you have to accept all patches and updates. Thats the only difference.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You're absolutely correct, it is not paid Beta and it was certainly playable upon release, as a matter of fact, I enjoyed it so much I played one character from launch until March having a blast. The game also had obvious areas for improvement - like all the multiple character class bugs that have yet to be resolved despite the ability of SOE to devote time to making significant content alterations and additions. I've heard different things in terms of player population, all I know is that within the last month my guild and several others have ceased to exist. If you're surrounded by happy groups of players running around having a blast - I'm happy for you and your server of contented gamers.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Was Word 1.0 turned into Wordperfect 1.0 six months after release? Of course things evolve and change, I'm fine with that and have posted several times in support of the evolutionary creative process when other changes were implemented. This is not evolution, this is radical mutation. Finally, I don't have to accept the changes, I can stop my subscription and play something else - which I did. I'm still posting here because I continue to care what is going on with a game that I spent a significant amount of time learning about and playing over the last 5 months. Futile and masocistic - probably *shrug* my time.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I very much hope you continue to enjoy playing, that you also enjoy your character after this round of re-development and that you don't find a character you've invested a great deal of time into developing changed to the extent that you no longer enjoy the class. I also hope that you don't start another character, develop it over 5 months and then find that the level 75 raid content has issues that make it necessary to restructure the mechanics again.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P>

[Ramtaku]

<DIV>dp</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ramtaku12 on <span class=date_text>04-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 AM</span>

[BraveBulgo]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<div></div> <div>So if a guardian is mad because after these changes, he can't do as much damage... why? His original role was to always be a tank, not a dps class. </div><hr></blockquote>As a Guardian I will say that I've never been too terribly concerned with DPS.  I've never wanted to do as much damage as, say, Berserkers.  Or  more  to the point how much damage Berserkers used to do.  That being said, though, there are times when I'm not in a group and killing MOBs is a laborious chore.  It already takes me forever and a day to kill something - now knowing that there's a damager nerf coming my way because SOE feels that time needs to be even longer is really a square kick in the groin.  Just my two cents, but SOE's waffling and they're doing it rather quickly.  I left this game in January but came back after I'd heard of how many changes there had been to it - about how it was more solo friendly, about how they'd added offline selling after swearing up and down they wouldn't no matter how much players wanted it... to me it seems like they wanted to make it more player friendly, then a couple of months later they changed their minds.  But then again... it's SOE.  Heh.  They did the 'flavor of the month' class nerfing in SWG, and we're about to move towards that here.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by BraveBulgo on <span class=date_text>04-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:42 AM</span>

[CamelSpyder]

<DIV>I, for one, would be completely satisfied if my priest could weild a chalice... Or even a "[Removed for Content] Cup of Faith", if you will....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My toon would be complete then...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CamelSpyder wrote:<BR> <DIV>I, for one, would be completely satisfied if my priest could weild a chalice... Or even a "[Removed for Content] Cup of Faith", if you will....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My toon would be complete then...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>Lil Johns [Removed for Content] Cup of Faith</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>-5% chance to get the party krunk</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>-12% chance to proc alcholics strength</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>+15 str +20agi -10int -10wis</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>(whenever this item is equipped and a proc goes off, you will see YEAHHH!!!, WHHAATTTT, OOKKAAAYYY!!!.)</FONT></P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>05-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:48 AM</span>

[zorbdan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zorbdan wrote:<BR> <P>Define playable ? Sure I can go home stick the cd in my pc and it loads up , I can make a character and run him around hitting things and casting spells . <FONT color=#ff9900>Uhm... yeah, thats what you do in this game? What were you expecting?</FONT> The problem is representation and advertisement and statements made in the media outlets , in packaging and in the game itself . <FONT color=#ff9900>Like what?</FONT>  </P> <P>If word 1.0 stated that you could load it up and start typing words , but instead when you loaded it and started typing words when you hit the letter 'a' it instead put in a '1' and when you typed the letter 'b' it would pop in a '7' and when you hit 'c' you would get a '?' and the remaining letters worked the way they were supposed to , there would be unhappy customers . Sure you can type some words with it but anything with an a , b , or c in it would not be possible . THAT IS THE PROBLEM ! And that is the difference anyone who defends SOE does't seem to grasp . Some of the problems are almost that simple , the spell/combat arts issues are a fine example , the froglock issue is a fine example , i could go on but I won't . <FONT color=#ff9900>Becasue you can't. Your example is plain silly. If priests were casting nukes were the heal icons were, your analogy would be meaningful... but as the game plays it work fine for what it says it does. Yeah yea, the frog example... and example where nothing on the box says they were in game.. SOE mislead people through chat in saying that there was a quest to enable them when in fact they were still working on it... That example only entends so far, and its been worn out long ago. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>The game IS playable... it does everything any game of its kind does. Some of the details need to be fine tuned, but it all works. I can guarantee you there were plenty of things Word 1.0 was missing, and it wasn't without bugs. Thats what we have with the initial release of EQ2, an imperfect 1st revision of the new product. Subsequent revisions have fixed MANY things and future revisions will fix, change, and add things over time.</FONT></P> <P>I am with the guy who said he regrets the fees he has been paying , because if I got word 1.0 home and it was pumping out garble instead of words during the course of typing a document for work or letter to my friend/reletives ,  I would be wanting my money back . <FONT color=#ff9900>Then back in August you should have asked for a refund, or at the very least canceled your subscription, since it was so obviously not up to your standards. Thats what most people do when a product isn't what you want. They don't continue to use it and complain about the fact they don't like it. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Esp in this case... You've either gotten something out of playing the game for 6 months, in which case SOE deserves to be paid for that. Or you haven't, in which case all your chars are L1, you never touched the game, and you simply didn't cancel your account... which just makes no sence. Which was it?</FONT></P> <P>Now lets take this a step further .. word 1.0 charges a monthly fee to use thier program and they get your feedback respond by saying they are going to fix the problems with a, b and c in a software patch so you can now type words . Patch date comes and 'a' now pops up and 'a' but 'b' now pops an 'f' and 'f' now pops up a '?' and 'c' now pops up '/' . What would you think about this and what would you do ? </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I guess you just don't know. Some of us pay annual fees to get free future upgrades of MS Office products... In essence we are paying for future versions. Bug reports and feature requests are submitted all the time, but that doesn't mean you'll get it just cuz you asked for it... and MS in notorious for missing ship dates, lets not even go there.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>-------------------------</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>This is an MMO. The comparisions to off the shelf apps has its limits, but in general no software application currently sold in the retail market is perfect... Far from it. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>As a consumer, your <STRONG>responsibility </STRONG>is to spend your money wisely on things you want. SOE hasn't done anything to stop you from making those choices. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>But you certainly can't eat the food, then say it tasted a little funny and expect not to pay for it. If it tastes funny say something up front and <STRONG>STOP EATING IT</STRONG>. But once you've sloshed down 6 months worth of play you can't betch because you really didn't enjoy it as much as you'd have liked.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok I have to respond back because everything you said was totally invalid ...I will just use these simple bullet points :</P> <P>1. Many spells/items/combat arts in the game did NOT perform thier intended or described function . Live update and patch information is proof from the deveolpers of this . Still to this day there are spells/combat arts/items that don't perform thier intended or described function . Many stats were described as performing some function or influence your character development in some manner when in fact they do not . People still to this day are confused as to what simple things like INT , WIS , STR , STA , AGL have or will have on your characters develoment  .  INCLUDING THE DEVS because they are in the process of changing them , so today these stats mean one thing the next they mean something totally different . I type 'a' one day and get 'a' , the next day i type 'a' and get 'b' .. see ?</P> <DIV>2. When you create a character it says something about being able to unlock a new playable race . Currently in game you cannot do this . False advertising plain and simple in the product right in your face as the first step to playing this ''playable'' game .</DIV> <P> </P> <P>3. You sit down and the wait staff is rude to you , you brush it off . If you don't eat the food how are you going to know it is going to taste bad ? Ok on to your 3 course meal , the salad that came first was good . You get to the main meal and your steak is a little undercooked and mashed potatoes are a little lumpy but the veggies on the side are just right , do you stop eating after one bite of the steak and miss out on those great veggies ? The steak may be tolerable , so you continue .. On with the desert , apple cobbler with ice cream , the apples are all crunchy and the ice cream on the side is a combo of freezer burn lumps and melted ice cream . So you ask for another desert at that point and the waiter on the way back with your 'new' desert takes a dirty rag and wrings it out in your desert . You end up sick the next day ..... Yeah I guess you should have stopped when you took one bite of that undercooked steak and up and walked out of the restaurant , but how were you know ? In short saying it is the consumers responsibilty is not some cut and dry/black and white issue .</P> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by zorbdan on <SPAN class=date_text>05-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:28 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by zorbdan on <span class=date_text>05-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 PM</span>

[Aphra Ravenwo]

<DIV>If you're satisfied to hunt green solo mobs to avoid challenge, your rewards should reflect that choice. By the same token, taking on tough group content should be much more rewarding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard some of us aren't satisified to hunt solo green's, however, when working on seeing what that particular mob does  doing a green is better because of the cost associated with death in this game. <for those of us not running around with uber coin> Im dis heartened because as a healer I wish not to be pushed into a supportive role and serve no other function except crafting and healing groups. Being able to hold my own during battle if a tank can't get a mob off me is onething that I take pride in..yes..I might be half way dead..challenge being that keeping myself alive while others figure out how to turn the aggro off of me..the point is right now we have time to figure this out..what works or doesn't. As healer Ive always had to hunt lower mobs..in any game. Because of lack of strength or melee skills. I dont mind it..though it is slow going but quests fill in that slow time period. But do not push me into a point where me as a healer have no defense.  My contention always has been healers should have a TaiChi style approach..defensive with no real offensive except through spells learned and perfected  ie hunting green mobs. The defensive skills of even TaiChi must be learned for many years before it can be used as a defensive fighting tool. I hope you and the other developers put into consideration not all healers heal same nor all tanks tank same nor all scouts scout the same. Part of my excitement of coming here was the variety of fighting style for tanks  scouting styles for scouts  casting styles for mages and healing choices for healers...now Im afraid we all will be put in a stereotypical mode again by eyt another game developers philosophy for "game balance". </DIV> <DIV>I'd rather scrub my guilds hardwood floors then be put into a corner of just being a weak healer with no depth..no choices. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Za]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aphra Ravenwolf wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you're satisfied to hunt green solo mobs to avoid challenge, your rewards should reflect that choice. By the same token, taking on tough group content should be much more rewarding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard some of us aren't satisified to hunt solo green's, however, when working on seeing what that particular mob does  doing a green is better because of the cost associated with death in this game. Im dis heartened because as a healer I wish not to be pushed into a supportive role and serve no other function except crafting and healing groups. Being able to hold my own during battle if a tank can't get a mob off me is onething that I take pride in..yes..I might be half way dead..challenge being that keeping myself alive while others figure out how to turn the aggro off of me..the point is right now we have time to figure this out..what works or doesn't. As healer Ive always had to hunt lower mobs..in any game. Because of lack of strength or melee skills. I dont mind it..though it is slow going but quests fill in that slow time period. But do not push me into a point where me as a healer have no defense.  My contention always has been healers should have a TaiChi style approach..defensive with no real offensive except through spells learned and perfected  ie hunting green mobs. The defensive skills of even TaiChi must be learned for many years before it can be used as a defensive fighting tool. I hope you and the other developers put into consideration not all healers heal same nor all tanks tank same nor all scouts scout the same. Part of my excitement of coming here was the variety of fighting style for tanks  scouting styles for scouts  casting styles for mages and healing choices for healers...now Im afraid we all will be put in a stereotypical mode again by eyt another game developers philosophy for "game balance".</DIV> <DIV>I'd rather scrub my guilds hardwood floors then be put into a corner of just being a weak healer with no depth..no choices.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>See its posts like this that prove that they can NEVER win with all you people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FYI... Healers are by far one of THE BEST soloing classes in the game... period. All the way through L50. I can only speak for clerics, but from what I hear druids and shaman are the same,  we can take red solo mobs fairly easily, and ^ and ^^ green mobs if they're on the frindge of  green/grey divide.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And by no means do I claim ubberness. Its really simple! No ubber gear needed... in fact I've won almost nothing I have on. Pretty much bought it all with the loot I got soloing or grouping, or did the quests to get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So who's wrong? the 1000s of priests that know how to play the game? Or this guy that feels like all he can do is heal and make stuff?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But to me thats how you all sound. Who's right, the 100s of thousands of people playing the game and enjoying it, or the few people that either can't or don't want to see that there is a very playable and enjoyable game in progress.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[zorbdan]

<DIV>LOL Zald you are one clueless mofo , that post was.... I think and forgive me if I am wrong opposing the balance changes that are being suggested down the road not the current state of gameplay as it is now .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also as I ponder the OP's question ... Your incentive to play... now is the time and that this game may be a different game down the road that you will not want to play , so play now with fervor for tomorrow change is as inevitable as subscription cancellation !!</DIV>

[Za]

<P>I'm clueless for making the opposite assumption you're making? I may have mis-assumed that the poster was refering to live servers vs test, but he doesn't say specifically either way.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>--- And since all the changes are on test, how can you know what will be released in a month from now? How can you know that white mobs won't give the exp that red ones do now, but are scaled so in general we're killing things our own level? You can't</P> <P>The whole argument about killing greens vs reds, vs whites, etc... is a moot argument. Its all relative. If they introduce a system that drops progress by 50%, then we argue that the 50% slowdown is in appropriate, how they did it is irrelivevant. All classes should be able to solo and play the game at a similar pace and degree of difficulty, using their own unique tactics.  The pace of leveling should be around what it is today,. maybe a tad slower...Its pretty fine as it is though. Until SOE releases a version of the game that is contrary to all that, what is the complaining about? If they did release that to test, you all be the only ones complaining becasue most people would simply leave... and SOE knows that.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clueless? Yeah, these forumns are more and more filling up with people that lash out at people trying to make valid points and bring some sence of thought back to the table. You don't have to agree, but the lack of respect shows alot about you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But again, I ask myself why I bother. The majority of people here have more pimples than life experience.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Zald on <SPAN class=date_text>05-04-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:12 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>05-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:12 PM</span>

[zorbdan]

Good points . Your right , looks like a little of both complaining about the current state of the game and what might happen in the future . It is all matter of reletive perspective in the end , true .

[Aphra Ravenwo]

<DIV>Zald.. If you did not understand what I meant ask. This is the test server feedback forums correct? I was making comments on things I have heard through discussion of how to change healers for the future. This is the time to give dev's feedback because it is in testing. With statements  ( ie Moorgard post on this thread)like healers heal, tanks, tank, scouts, scouts, etc concern me not just with healing but with all classes that we will be put into rolls that aren't as flexible as we have now. I also gave an opinion about Moorguard saying that if it's preferable to solo greens then experience should reflect that. I don't think anyone really want to solo greens all the time. Experience isn't a complaint for me.If I can't fight something then like I stated I quest it out or whatever.  Some of Moorgard's comments were my concern. It had to do with a  couple of statements that stuck out to me.  Together with other comments on testing feedback and past experience I wanted to share a concern. I asked the dev's while testing our classes to also consider other things. and gave them an example of it. One example is the TaiChi. And it had to do with the healing class because it is what Im most better at playing.This all has to do with the testing discussion. The devs ask for feedback. I wanted to give them one thought of how I see my healer. Zald not everyone that inquires is a trouble maker and griefer. I might have put somethings alot clearer. Fair enough. But I didn't deserve all that either.  I love it here. I am using different information both stated <by devs and other SOE people>, talked in the forums between people, past experiences. etc. My comments came from that. What makes me love this game is the options we have now and I don't want to lose options to a cookbook charachter because of possible stereotyping. I've been in groups where most have said they like the options they do have because it allows them to think. Even if we got our butt's kicked the experience was such we could actually have enough time to learn about that experience. I don't want to lose that.</DIV>

[Za]

Fair enough. I agree with your fears. I certainly don't want EQ2 priest to end up like EQ1 clerics. That sucked.