EQ2 Needs Help Now!

[kingsnar]

<DIV>First time poster, so be gentle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OK, EQ2 is a fun game.  The ride to 50 was fun.  After hitting 50 I had fun in the epic zones killing fun and challenging mobs.  I have beaten Darathar, gotten my prismatic.  Now what?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2 is missing some key things to keep the game fresh and interesting to people in my situation.  Everyday I see more and more people quit or cancel their account for this same reason.  People play EQ2 largely to improve their character through gear and/or skills.  Once they achieve the best in these areas the game becomes dull.  Why is this bad for SOE?  Simple, if we dont keep playing you lose your revenue stream of monthly subscriptions.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand the big expansion has been delayed.  I can deal with that.  But, in the meantime in is critical that you add some sort of 50+ advancement to the game soon.  Whether the level cap is increased (difficult without new content), AA abilities (my first choice), or new gear.  Bloodlines did nothing for us high level people.  It was dull, and frankly uninspired.  We need fresh challenging and intriguing content.  The top options I see include:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. ) Increasing the level cap is difficult since it could make some currently challenging fights far too easy.  Without adding new zones/challenges this would be the most difficult option to consider.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.) Alternative Advancement exp has been added to every EQ MMORPG game to date.  This gives potentially limitless improvements to your character through tons of EXP grinding.  While this does offer some similar balance issues as with option one, it is to a far lesser extent.  Giving an almost limitless "exp treadmill" to players means people will play far more and stay interested longer.  This equates to income to SOE and happy gamers.  Win/win situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.) Lets be honest, "end game" gear in EQ2 is fairly half-baked at this point.  I am a die hard critic of the "Everything is attuned" concept.  I makes zero sense to me, and hurts the econmy.  While yes, it helps avoid inflation, it removes the trading of "high end" gear on the brokers.  The only items that turn up are overly expensive.  As for gaining equipent through raids, there just are not enough good items to try to achieve and the ways to get them are often too random to warrant attempts to get them.  More items need to be added, and offered to all classes.  Clearly, scouts have have been overlooked by developers at a high level.  What Master drop dual wield piercers are there?  As far as I know, none.  How many Master dual wield swords?  None as well?  So, scouts must use fairly low level weapons on epic mobs (SBD, SSoY, PGT, Treedins, Bone Razor) and their prismatic?  And no, I don't even play a scout, but clearly they need to be looked at closely int erms of loot options.  Where is the fun in this?  Players want options and choices in different weapons.  Give them as many choices as possible.  This needs to be added even if the two above options are implemented as well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line as I see it is Sony created EQ2 and it is a great platform to keep running for a long time.  But SOE is taking too long to addd the ever importqant end game content that gamers need.  As more and more people reach 50, it si only a matter of time before the player leaves the game.  You can only do so many things once you hit 50, and ALTs are not the answer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a dedicated EQ2 player and fan of all EQ games.  I am making this plea to keep me and my friends playing the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snarll</DIV> <DIV>Grobb Server</DIV>

[Geenke]

<P>Not that this game is not fun to play. But the devs made this game so easy to level. I remember the beginning days of EQ1 where it took me a years worth of playing to get to level 50. The first expansion in Kunark was a relief but it still required lots of playtime. Now you can level a character from 1 to 50 in the sametime it takes to start and finish Diablo 2. The game was not meant to level characters this fast. I hate it. </P> <P>And I do occasionally turn off the XP bar for days at a time while I play. That way I have stuff to do and kill and dont get outlevel content within the game. </P>

[BlackHa]

I respectfully disagree. Start on another charcter. Most of the recent expansion has been for the 30-35 range. Perhaps you missed it along the way.

[Kwoung]

<DIV>The first (second/third) round of characters to reach the highest levels are always going to be left high and dry while the game goes through its post relase balancing act and they focus on adding/fleshing out content where most of the playerbase resides (mid 30's at this point I think). When a greater number of players approach the higher levels, they will focus their attention on it. Take a look at EQ, they almost exclusively add high level content at this point, because that is where all their players are... meanwhile, the first round of players (5-6 years ago) had to wait forever for additional content and have the original high level stuff fixed so it would even work.</DIV>

[kingdave20]

They have yet to work out most of the bugs within each class and you want all this? Bah Would love to see some crucial things fixed first before any level cap increases or raid loot worked out. With the new combat system coming those classes who need work will be hurt even more severely. <div></div>

[A]

The thing is no matter how fast SOE put out "high end" content, the hardcore guys would just eat it up and want more more more.  They could release an exclusive high end patch tomorrow with tons of new difficult mobs/quests ect. and with in maybe a month or even less someone would basically cut and paste the OP's post.  Its a never ending grind for these guys and no amount of content will ever be enough.

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aaz wrote:<BR> The thing is no matter how fast SOE put out "high end" content, the hardcore guys would just eat it up and want more more more.  They could release an exclusive high end patch tomorrow with tons of new difficult mobs/quests ect. and with in maybe a month or even less someone would basically cut and paste the OP's post.  Its a never ending grind for these guys and no amount of content will ever be enough.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thats because of current content design, not because of the 'hardcore' or speed of leveling.  Remember even in clasic fear/hate/sky were not released as part of it and slowly trickled in ..and took a fair amount of time to break in and accomplish -BUT- even without clearning the zones and killing Inny/CT there was viable and appropriate risk/rewards associated with those zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Content design is what is killing EQ2 right now ..</DIV>

[kingsnar]

<DIV>What EQ2 has done to keep EQ2 players busy at the high level is this:  They took the Epic zones/mobs and made the fights *far* more difficult, and they seem to have left the loot tables the same.  So, using the good old risk/reward system- Risk is far greater, and rewards the same.  Does this sound fun?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, this is short sighted.  While this may challenge the high level players today, it makes it far more difficult for up-and-coming guild to beat their first epic zone.  They removed the Cove of Decay:Eouc Angler.  Zarvonnn's Tower King Zalak is far tougher.  Etc.  So if you're a guild who just got your first 12 level 50 people, and have another 12 in the 45-ish range there isn't really to good epic mob to try.  I don't know about you guys, but this seems to be a step in the wrong direction to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, do not overlook the glaring oversight that there are no Master scout weapons.  (If you did not know it, only Master weapons and heritage weapons hit epic raid mobs.)  This is rediculous to me.  Shouldn't scouts have a shot to hit Epic mobs with weapons other than level 40 heritage weapons???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for balancing and combat changes, I really don't understand the point.  The classes are are fairly balanced with a few exceptions.  Shadow Knights clearly need work, as do many scout classes.  Of course, if scouts had good weapons to use this might be less of an issue.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grobb server is one of the last ones added to the game, and we currently have over 200 people at level 50.  An "old" server like Permafrost has approximately 400 level 50 characters currently.   So, this is a fairly large issue that SOE need to address sooner rather than later.  A large percentage of the EQ2 gaming community is in this same situation or will be there soon.  If they fail to address this, they will be losing some of their "hardcore" gaming community.  Losing thousands of subscriptions due to lack of content for high level characters is just bad business.  Re-occuring revenue in the form of subscriptions is how theys games make the big dollars, and at this point they are at risk of losing a large amount of current and future revenue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snarll</DIV> <DIV>Grobb Server</DIV><p>Message Edited by kingsnarll on <span class=date_text>04-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:16 PM</span>

[Amise]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kingsnarll wrote:<BR> <DIV>Also, do not overlook the glaring oversight that there are no Master scout weapons.  (If you did not know it, only Master weapons and heritage weapons hit epic raid mobs.)  This is rediculous to me.  Shouldn't scouts have a shot to hit Epic mobs with weapons other than level 40 heritage weapons???</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P>There are at least two DW weapons available from epic master chests.  Vyr`Drais Claw is one (I own one; dropped in Maiden's Gulch); and Sabre of the Storyteller (rapier) we've had drop a couple of times while doing the Deception drakotas.  So I'm not sure how you can say there are no master scout weapons when I am actually wielding one. =)</P> <P>I'm mostly happy with my situation at level 50 but I think this is probably because I don't exclusively raid.  I'm in a raiding guild, we raid most days and we beat Darathar for the first time today so we're not exactly slacking.  But I do a lot of other things that don't involve raiding or working towards tangible raid-driven character advancement, maybe that's the difference between me and all the people who keep complaining about how boring the game is at 50.  I'm not bored at all.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Amise on <span class=date_text>04-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:14 AM</span>

[jwdanie]

<DIV>Just to add my 2c to this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the fault lies in the phrase "end game content" itself.  If you raced to get to level 50 to experience the "end game" I've got news for you: these types of games don't end, and you can't win them.  The joy is in the game itself; the interactions that you make with other people, the fun you experience along the way.  If you complain about the "grind" to get to "the end," you missed the point entirely.  SOE will be adding additional levels and content when they can.  Why?  The game doesn't end.  Likely you will race through this without enjoying it to get to the new level cap and then whine that the "end game" still sucks.  Enjoy the game for what it is: a chance to have some fun, kill some stuff, play a character (or several), and kill some free time.  If you are intent on "winning the end game" this is not the game for you.</DIV>

[aeio]

[In swoops  a well-muscled man in a tight unitard with a large "EQ2" logo emblazened on his chest] <div></div>

[ea]

I completely agree with the original poster. Our guild defeated Darathar twice about two weeks ago.  Since then we basically went from having 30 people on every night to 4 or 5, and 3 of those are in vendor mode.  It's shocking.  Two weeks ago I felt like we were competing for top rank on the server (highest guild level, most players level 50) and suddenly our guild is like a ghost town.  It literally happened overnight, and there was no falling out or bad incident to spark it. We've chalked it up to everyone being "burned out" and needing a break.  Sadly, I'm getting the feeling that most of them aren't coming back.  There really is no reason for most people to play after completing Deception.  Sure you can get Master drops, but those are only minor upgrades to ebon armor, and of little use anyway since there is nothing really left to accomplish. I'm still enjoying the game so I started over and are bringing a few alts up the ranks. I'm afraid if there isn't new content introduced soon, however, many of my guildmates will never return from their break.

[zeeke]

<DIV>I 100% agree with the OP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not agree with JW as hey man this was the best game ive ever played, until the day I dinged 50. Dont try and pull out that you leveled too fast card, its dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was in a guild that had 25 50s that played everyday, we started an alliance with another guild that had 25 50s, that way hey we can have 24 on no problem for raiding and doing deception. Well that number started getting smaller day by day, after 2 weeks we merged the two guilds out of not having enough for one guild. In the first week we had 48 level 50s in the guild, all was great. As of last week we had around 10 people that would actually log on, period. They all left. Last week the remaining few quit, most went to wow, some to daoc, some back to eq1. But the point is they are gone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So now Im in a new guild again, all is well, but how long before they stop loggin on? Every epic is cake now, the only kinda hard one is Zek, and the reward is just silly out of date. Getting a wooden chest for a 2 day lock out really tough instance, is a joke. Half the raid ends up naked just from the raid and it cost each one of them 20g+ just for repairs, and what did you get from the raid? NOTHING.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is that cool? Is that fun? No.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats missing? Actual raid content. How about an actual event that is not zone in, kill a few adds, then a boss. Its not rocket science no matter how hard they make that single boss, we can and will figure out how to beat it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where is the raid zones? Where is fear? Hate? growth? etc? Where is a zone that my whole raid can do and take us many hours to complete, not 20 minutes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I fully understand you have to make content for th mid levels, as there are tons and tons of people that will never get a character over level 40 before they start another, thats all fine. But as was said above, you can no ignore and expect all of your hardcore players to sit and wait. Who will make or break eq2? You think its the casual players? What keeps eq1 around? Is it casual players? All of those answers are no.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never played a game where I regreted hitting a level as much as in this game, you ding 50 and sony flashes a game over thanks for playing sign in your face. No exp gain, no debt, no way possible for money income UNLESS I go grind pointlessly just in hopes of vendor loot to sell. I dont tradeskill and guess what, I DONT WANT TO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont want to play an alt either, why? because the low end game is so screwed up it does not interest me. I DO NOT want to play a solo game, if I did I would go play ps2 or something. Right now the low end game is just as messed up as the high end game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im still here, and im having fun raiding and goofing around, I know there will be tough times. BUT, there has got to be a light at the end of the tunnel soon or I wont be able to stay either. I have 3 accounts, all would be canceled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The whole problem stems from the fact that it was soooooo simple to get to 50. They should of addressed the issue months and months ago to slow the game down and then we whould be in this problem YET. It would of given sony more time to decide what to do with the game and when and how to add high end content. Right now its already to late.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My two cents, from a guy with over 51 days played, none of which are in merchant mode.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ea]

I really hate to say this, but this game needs the time sinks EQ1 had if they are unable to develop the game quickly enough. EQ1 had the typical level 50 content that anyone had access to.  Then they had the High End content that required more than just popping into a zone, using the right strategy and dropping a mob. You actually had to spend time killing the Lesser level 50 content to gear up for the High End content.  There were quests to get weapons needed to actually hit mobs.  Quests to get into zones.  I know of people STILL trying to get to plane of Time and loving it. I realize everyone wants access to ALL content, but this first round of EQ2 is too care-bare-ish: way too easy.  I'm far from a hard core player (I work 55+ hours a week) and I went from 30 to 50 in a few weeks.  50 really should just be the beginning.  Right now, it is the end, and too easy to attain. Yes, you can go back and do things you missed, but that's like reading a book to the end, and then going back to re-read chapter 3.  A few people do it, but most of us would rather read the next book in the series. They made a big mistake here.  They didn't slow the game down enough.  When more than 5% of the population finishes the content before the expansion has been added, it is poor design.  Since they made it so easy to reach 50, then next step needs to be dealing with a large player base at level 50.  There isn't anything for a large player base to do at level 50--at least nothing that feels like it is worth the trouble. I agree completely that we need zones like Fear and Hate with full suits of class-specific armor that may take you 10 trips to get and 5 to 10 hours per raid to clear.  Drop a boss or two in those zones that you can't possibly kill with the standard Ebon gear and Adept I spells.

[naczeln]

Those who hit 50 are insignificant from SOE's point of view and its good. I wont play any dead cards, its just reality. High level content will be developed when SOE sees there is an appropriate player base.Several hundreds? Dont make me laugh. You expect devs to abandon 99% players in their mid levels just to develop content for YOU? Dont count on this. Start another character and play slower, cancel and go play quake or do whatever.Who cares?<p>Message Edited by naczelnyk on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 AM</span>

[Jadr]

<span><blockquote><hr>eakm wrote: I realize everyone wants access to ALL content, but this first round of EQ2 is too care-bare-ish: way too easy.  I'm far from a hard core player (I work 55+ hours a week) and I went from 30 to 50 in a few weeks.  50 really should just be the beginning.  Right now, it is the end, and too easy to attain. <hr></blockquote>You ever considered that the game just is not aimed at people with your playstyle? (I dont mean that in an negative way, im open to all having fun.) Way i see it they have EQ1 for the hardcore raider and casual tradeskiller and eq2 for the hardcore tradeskiller and casual adventurer.</span><div></div>

[jwdanie]

<DIV>I just want to clarify my post, since some people seem confused.  I do not fault anyone for leveling too quickly, since it is fairly easy to pick up exp quickly with questing exp and vitatality added in.  If you have been playing the same character since the game launched, you likely are level 50 now.  I personally have a character in the mid 30's, another in the mid 20's, several in the late teens, and 2 in the single digits.  The only suggestion that I can make to you is if you are truly bored with the content at level 50, roll up a new character and try some new stuff.  You could: 1) Join the opposing city 2) Try a different class 3) Try crafting (if you haven't).  I do agree that the game needs more content, this is not the issue.  Also, I don't think that the bloodline chronicles adventure pack was much of a success, to put it mildly probably because extra content for that level range was not needed.  If you are not having fun playing the game the way you are playing the game, try playing it differently is all I am saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as my comment regarding the end game, referring to level 50 as "the end game" is bad for several reasons.  First, by calling it the "end game" you have already convinced yourself that it is over for you.  Second, the minute they add higher levels, 50 is no longer the "end game" anymore.  Third, you could always mentor a newer player or something along those lines and go back and see stuff that you may have missed.  The game does not end at level 50 unless you let it.</DIV>

[kingsnar]

<DIV>eakm wrote: "<BR>Our guild defeated Darathar twice about two weeks ago.  Since then we basically went from having 30 people on every night to 4 or 5, and 3 of those are in vendor mode.  It's shocking.  Two weeks ago I felt like we were competing for top rank on the server (highest guild level, most players level 50) and suddenly our guild is like a ghost town.  It literally happened overnight, and there was no falling out or bad incident to spark it.<BR><BR>We've chalked it up to everyone being "burned out" and needing a break.  Sadly, I'm getting the feeling that most of them aren't coming back.  There really is no reason for most people to play after completing Deception.  Sure you can get Master drops, but those are only minor upgrades to ebon armor, and of little use anyway since there is nothing really left to accomplish."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the exact trend I see in most guild who hit this point in the game.  Once Darathar has been beaten a few times, people start dropping like flies in the guild.  Then it is all about recruiting new people just to beat Darathar again.  And to respond to the person who hinted that I should focus on things other than raiding, lets see what options I have.  </DIV> <OL> <LI>My main is about to reach 50 as an Armorer and I have a 50 provisioner too...so done the crafting thing.  </LI> <LI>Gather all day looking for rares?  Can you say dull?!?  </LI> <LI>Make an ALT?  I am not interested in making more ALTs myself.</LI> <LI>Grind Writs?  I am currently doing about 4 a day on my Armorer, but not exactly exciting.</LI> <LI>Take a break from EQ2?  This seems the most logical choice, yet I havent yet. </LI></OL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what fun things am I missing?  Decorating my "home" in EQ?  I mean...really, what else is there.  People are leaving the game or "taking a break" when they get to this point.  This is just bad business for SOE.  Player retention, especially the hardcore gamers, are the key to the longtime success of any MMORPG.   By adding AA skills or levels or whatever they can keep people happy for a *long* time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snarll </DIV> <DIV>Grobb Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.: Good to hear some DW Master drops are in the game.  I guess our guild has just had poor luck in that area.  Luckily, I play a guardian. =P</DIV>

[kingsnar]

jwdandiels wrote "I think the fault lies in the phrase "end game content" itself.  If you raced to get to level 50 to experience the "end game" I've got news for you: these types of games don't end, and you can't win them.  The joy is in the game itself; the interactions that you make with other people, the fun you experience along the way.  If you complain about the "grind" to get to "the end," you missed the point entirely.  SOE will be adding additional levels and content when they can.  Why?  The game doesn't end.  Likely you will race through this without enjoying it to get to the new level cap and then whine that the "end game" still sucks.  Enjoy the game for what it is: a chance to have some fun, kill some stuff, play a character (or several), and kill some free time.  If you are intent on "winning the end game" this is not the game for you." <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you are 100% correct, but I also suspect you are not at the same point of the game as my guild (and many other guilds are at).  Believe it or not, EQ2 does basicly have an end to the game currently.  Once you do the prismatic quests you'll understand what I mean.  What I am pleading for is a game that doesn't end.  Exactly how you describe the current game (innaccurately to me), is what I am looking for.   This shouldnt be breaking news to SOE either.  There is a reason EQoA and EQ1 both have AA abilities.  AA abililites=Nearly unlimited EXP grinding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>People like me play EQ2 with near term and long term goals.  Some goals I have had are to hit certain levels, get certain gear, beat certain Epic mobs, and complete quests.  After you beat Darathar, most gamers have accoplished all of their potential EQ2 adventurer goals.  From there it is very difficult to think of new goals in-game to improve your character.  You could craft.  Farm crafting stuff.  Farm named mobs (SOE seems to have made this *extremely* difficult to do in recent patches).  And I honeslty think many of the economy changes (from EQ1 model to EQ2) have seriously hurt the fun-factor.  I look back at the days in the EC tunnel with fondness.  I would spend a month there just trading gear.  While the addition of "trader mode" makes it far easier, it is no fun if no great items are showing up on the market.  If I compare my Guardian to any other Guardian of my level on the server, our gear is nearly identical.  Full Ebon Vanguard, Prismatic Longsword, 3-4 Master drop pieces of armor.  How is that good game design?  Remember the excitement in EQ1 when a CoF came on the market?  or at lower levels being able to buy a FBSS.  Not going to happen in EQ2....ever.  Only items up for trade are one of the following:<BR></P> <OL> <LI>Player Crafted</LI> <LI>Uninspiring Drop off ^^ mob.</LI> <LI>A Spell</LI> <LI>Nice Master drop unwanted by guild/winner and being sold for WAY too much</LI></OL> <DIV>I prefer an active economy with new rare and exciting items turning up daily.  If I were able to do this even at my level of the game I would be having fun.  Fun means I'll play longer, which is good for SOE.  I know I like trading more than most though, so perhaps this is not for everyone.  Maybe the majority like the stagnate economy we have today, I don't know...(And I still have no clue why SOE made fighting inflation in this game such a huge priority.  I mean, who cares?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line, EQ2 needs to have something *FUN* to do at level 50 after beating Darathar.  This needs to be looked at, or as time goes on, more and more people will be taking "extended breaks" from EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want EQ2 to thrive, thats why I am posting this....but if things do not change, I may need to try something else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snarll</DIV> <DIV>Grobb Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Amise]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kingsnarll wrote:<BR> <DIV>Bottom line, EQ2 needs to have something *FUN* to do at level 50 after beating Darathar.  This needs to be looked at, or as time goes on, more and more people will be taking "extended breaks" from EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Snarll</DIV> <DIV>Grobb Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's certainly true.  I'm having an easier time of it in that regard because a) I've gotten to the level 50-beaten-darathar stage a little slower than a lot of others, and b) my playstyle gives me more to do.  I'm strange in the fact that I like doing long painful book quests and camping (sometimes.  screaming mace torturer is way out of wack though, to name just one)  and all the things that most people seem to hate.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the problem is that people look at EQ2 and say <EM>well how can you be bored, there's a ton more level 50 content in this game than there was at the start of EQLive </EM>(paraphrase).  And that's true, there is.  But the people who are at the end of that content have gotten through it so much faster than people did at the start of EQ1 because they have years worth of raiding experience to work with.  I'm not convinced that was taken into account when raid content was designed, and it should have been. </DIV>