/hide_illusion is a waste of the devs resources...

[SniperKitty]

The only "illusions" that are worthwhile buffs, are NOT ILLUSIONS.  They are physcial changes to the characters body and that's why the buff grants the enhancements it does.  The /hide_illusion command is a pointless waste of the devs time and a copout.  The devs are caving in to the whining crybabies.  If you want the benefits of the buff, deal with the frakkin' shapechange then you freaking crybabies.  Otherwise don't use the damned thing.  It's that simple.  Alternatively, you can use an illusion, like Call of the Fae or Rowyl's Form of the Vale (although it does say form) to cover up the wolf / lion / bear / whatever form. Point is, the spells are physical changes to the character.  They are not illusions that you can simply get rid of.  The point of the buffs is that you get the benefits from the physical shape your character is in.  Colossus from the X-Men had to change his skin to metal to get the benefits of his invulnerability.  He couldn't just 'turn off' the metal but still be invulnerable.  You should not be allowed to hide the physical change of shapechange buffs.  They are technically not an illusion, but a physical change of the character. I fully expect all the crybabies to come out of the woodwork and one star me.  Bring it on whiners. <div></div>

[Debillus]

<div></div><div></div>I guess someone had a sip too much coffee this morning. Try decaf bro. <b>Edit:</b> And for the record, I totally disagree but I would have given you 5 stars simply to respect the fact that your opinion is as valid as mine, but the manner in which you push your issue just drew you down to 2. Insulting people upfront for disagreeing with you is not exactly something that flies with most people. Including me. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Beetle on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:40 AM</span>

[Sebastien]

Heh.  It's always impressive to see the things people can complain about. <div></div>

[Miral]

I doubt it took much in the way of resources for this gripping change, but I do agree its kind of a dumb change... like 98% of the other stuff in the patch...

[Nitespi]

I agree with your post, if not the way you presented it.

[LobaLobaLo]

<DIV>Sniper, you have my agreement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They aren't illusion spells at all once they make the illusion optional; just lame buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless there's some sort of performance issue associated with illusions, I don't see why the illusion toggle is necessary either.</DIV>

[Davi]

<DIV>I one stared SniperKitty because of this comment, "They are technically not an illusion, but a physical change of the character.<BR><BR>I fully expect all the crybabies to come out of the woodwork and one star me."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off, one must know what illusion means,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Illusion" target=_blank>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Illusion</A></DIV> <DIV> illusion - </DIV> <DIV> <OL> <LI> <OL> <LI>An erroneous perception of reality.</LI> <LI>An erroneous concept or belief.</LI></OL></LI> <LI>The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.</LI> <LI>Something, such as a fantastic plan or desire, that causes an erroneous belief or perception.</LI> <LI>Illusionism in art.</LI> <LI>A fine transparent cloth, used for dresses or trimmings.</LI></OL> <P>Now that we know what an illusion is, we can plainly see that all changes in a virtual world are technically illusions.   While I agree that a virtual world has qualities that may make it seem as if it was a real world, it is only an "illusion", and because of that, there are no physical changes to characters. </P> <P>Lastly, you asked to be given one star.</P> <P> </P></DIV>

[Big Da]

But if anyone does not reply with a Haiku then you are all very stupid and i hate you!

[Fennir]

<div></div>The funniest part of your post is at the end, when you realize how stupid your thread is and attempt to cover up that fact by requesting 1-stars. My friends didn't become mystics and druids etc. so they could run around as a stupid ugly animal they get no enjoyment out of <b>in addition</b> to completely obscuring the character they spent a lot of time customizing.  They became shamans and druids because they wanted to fulfill the role of that class.  Period.  How many classes are forced to change their image to cast a beneficial buff?  Not many. Maybe not all mystics and druids are like that, in which case they can leave their illusions on 24/7, more power to them.  OMG A CHOICE HOW HORRIBLE!!! The fact that you cared enough about how other people want to enjoy their class to make a thread bashing them over it, speaks volumes about the kind of mentality you have in general. The 1-star I gave you is for that, and most definitely not because you asked for it. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 AM</span>

[SkinnyFats_EQ2]

<DIV>I don't like it when I'm in a dungeon and a mystic's giant fat behind is blocking me from seeing anything.  I am very happy about this change.</DIV>

[Whyllo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DavinX wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>Now that we know what an illusion is, we can plainly see that all changes in a virtual world are technically illusions.   While I agree that a virtual world has qualities that may make it seem as if it was a real world, it is only an "illusion", and because of that, there are no physical changes to characters. </P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm giving you 5 stars cuz this was just great, and made me laugh out loud.  Well said!</P> <P>/Happy Dance for /hide_illusions...I'm much too sexy to be hidden under that *$%#&! lion.</P> <P>Whyllo</P> <P>Oh...and I didn't 1 star the OP because he's too silly.</P> <P> </P> <P>Edited to explain...I only said the equivalent of darn...sorry, I forgot about the bad word filter.</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Whyllo on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:17 AM</span>

[Ute]

I've never had a problem with Illusions myself, but some do, and that impacts me as a Fury.  My shape changing spell isn't a buff, it is a heal with a buff as a side effect.  In fact, it is a 300+ point heal that also just happens to turn you into a Lion, give you 4 agi, and a proc. The problem is most Furies just use it *as* a buff instead of a heal because changing into a Lion mid-fight can be very disorienting to several classes.  Likewise, some people do not like the lower perspective Lion form gives.  Especially a lot of tanks who like to be tall so they can get a clear view of everything. So, yes, it is a nice change and one that will let me use one of my much needed heals on anyone regardless of their preference.  And, as for myself personally, my Lion form isn't a lame buff, it is actually a very critical buff to my survival.  It boosts my power, health, mitigation, resistances, and gives me a very nice proc.  The problem is, Lion form can be very awkward in dungeons and certain other situations, so the ability to turn it off is a big help. <div></div>

[SniperKitty]

First, I asked for one stars because I know so many whining crybabies can't stand to have their widdle avatar changed and wanted to let them know I don't care one damned bit about the one-stars. Second,the person who posted the definition of illusion, you're wrong.  I speak of illusions and shape changing within the realm of the characters themselves.  Not as we would view them.  Warden of the Forest and like spells, physically change the character instead of covering them up with an illusion.  Allowing the mewling brats their way, and letting them hide the physical aspect of these spells is ridiculous.  The beneficial effects of the spell come from the physical change.  Let's take the Protector of the Forest buff Wardens get. "Augmentation which grants the warden Wolf form, increased Health and Power pools, increased Armor Class rating, grants See Hidden Vision, and grants a chance for an additional special melee combat attack." Wolf form. <-- Well duh.. it's a shapechange spell.  You should be forced to be a wolf. Increased health and power pools. <-- I dunno... I guess wolves are healthier and have a stronger connection to nature? Increased Armor Class. <-- Big thick, furry coat. See Hidden Vision. <-- Olfactory and audio senses improved by the shape of the wolf. Additional special melee combat attack.  <-- Most damning evidence of shapechange yet!! Guess what the special attack is... a VICIOUS BITE. All the benefits of the spell are directly tied to the shape of the warden as part of the spell.  SOE should create a special buff for the mewling crybabies called "Pansies of the Forest" or "Narcissist of the Glade", the completely and irrevocably removes any shapechange or illusion spell from their character from here on and forever more.  Never will they be allowed to hide their oh so beloved characters avatar for any reason. " The fact that you cared enough about how other people want to enjoy their class to make a thread bashing them over it, speaks volumes about the kind of mentality you have in general." ~ Fennir My problem, is these whining crybabies got the devs to change their mind about how a spell is supposed to work.  It's ridiculous.  It's a SHAPECHANGE spell, not an illusion.  Currently, all the ILLUSIONS in game are fluff and have no meaning, so the only reason someone would be using the illusion is cause they want to.  So obviously SOE catered to the whiners, by creating this command to hide the physical aspects of the form spells. "How many classes are forced to change their image to cast a beneficial buff? " ~ Fennir Tough.  You don't like it, don't play the class and go play the Templar or Inquisitor class. " My friends didn't become mystics and druids etc. so they could run around as a stupid ugly animal they get no enjoyment out of <b>in addition</b> to completely obscuring the character they spent a lot of time customizing." ~ Fennir *laughs* You're kidding right?  How many people actually pay attention to what their character looks like in the middle of combat?  Let alone the rest of the party, the monster, and the terrain?  Healers focus on the health /buff bars most of the time.  You're counterpoint is flawed.  It's quite easy to TURN THE BUFF OFF when you want your character to look like your character and run around like that.  That's what I do.  I run around without Warden of the Forest cast, until I'm getting into combat and then I cast it.  When I'm done fighting and it doesn't look like I'll be fighting anytime soon, I cancel the buff and return to my normal dark elf self.  It's that simple. <div></div>

[Fennir]

<div></div>If this function had been in the game since launch, you would have nothing to say.   Unfortunately, you feel it's your job to defend the status quo, even when it affects others' enjoyment. In my (and surely others, at this point) opinion, you demolished your own points when you belied the fact that it bothers you how other people enjoy their class. This is effectively the most minor change in the game, AND will never... ever.. ever.. affect you if you do not want it to. You know what's even more pathetic than people who complain about things just to complain?  People who complain about things just to complain about things that DON'T EVEN AFFECT THEM.  You will never be forced to use this command. Your problem is that you lack basic logic and comprehension skills, let alone compassion, and furthermore, you're making it very obvious how much of a toolish person you are.  I thank the stars I'm in a guild so I'll never have to group with someone as petty and childish as you. Think I'm being harsh?  Read your posts again.  I know you won't get it, but everyone else will. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 AM</span>

[Cygnu]

<DIV>I agree with sniper on this one. The shape change is part of the spell and its what leads to the benefical effects the character recieves. From a roleplaying perspective the bite attack looses it meaning if the character is not in wolf form (unless they are dirty fighters! no-one like bitters :smileymad: )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone also made a point about some forms causing problems in tight dungeons. I see this as something you have to deal with. Sometimes the bears are so big it does cause sight problems when you are down a dungeon. But thats part of it. Something you have to adapt to or don't use the spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So for me, from a role play perspective, I don't like this change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But while we are on the subject, my sneak skill is really good but I don't like the decreased movement that comes with it. Can we remove the speed decrease part of this spell please. Just because it ruins my enjoyment of the game :smileywink:</DIV>

[Fennir]

Uh, how stupid do you have to be to compare a major spell effect like sneak/invis speed to a completely visual effect like bear form? Seriously, I want to know. <div></div>

[Eadric]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>The only "illusions" that are worthwhile buffs, are NOT ILLUSIONS.  They are physcial changes to the characters body and that's why the buff grants the enhancements it does.  The /hide_illusion command is a pointless waste of the devs time and a copout.  The devs are caving in to the whining crybabies.  If you want the benefits of the buff, deal with the frakkin' shapechange then you freaking crybabies.  Otherwise don't use the damned thing.  It's that simple.  Alternatively, you can use an illusion, like Call of the Fae or Rowyl's Form of the Vale (although it does say form) to cover up the wolf / lion / bear / whatever form.<BR><BR>Point is, the spells are physical changes to the character.  They are not illusions that you can simply get rid of.  The point of the buffs is that you get the benefits from the physical shape your character is in.  Colossus from the X-Men had to change his skin to metal to get the benefits of his invulnerability.  He couldn't just 'turn off' the metal but still be invulnerable.  You should not be allowed to hide the physical change of shapechange buffs.  They are technically not an illusion, but a physical change of the character.<BR><BR>I fully expect all the crybabies to come out of the woodwork and one star me.  Bring it on whiners.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Of all the things wrong with the game and in the upcoming patch, <STRONG><EM>this</EM></STRONG> is the topic you've decided to rant about? I play a warlock and my illusions are purely fluff, so this change means little or nothing to me. But why you feel this is such a big deal to give the individual players the choice on how they are viewed is lost on me.</P> <P>BTW, you'd probably get a better response if you approached your arguments maturely instead of just starting in with all the ridiculous name-calling. How can you possibly hope to start a dialectic in this manner? Your posture is inimical to your cause.</P>

[LobaLobaLo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DavinX wrote:<BR> <DIV>I one stared SniperKitty because of this comment, "They are technically not an illusion, but a physical change of the character.<BR><BR>I fully expect all the crybabies to come out of the woodwork and one star me."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off, one must know what illusion means,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Illusion" target=_blank>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Illusion</A></DIV> <DIV> illusion - </DIV> <DIV> <OL> <LI> <OL> <LI>An erroneous perception of reality.</LI> <LI>An erroneous concept or belief.</LI></OL></LI> <LI>The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.</LI> <LI>Something, such as a fantastic plan or desire, that causes an erroneous belief or perception.</LI> <LI>Illusionism in art.</LI> <LI>A fine transparent cloth, used for dresses or trimmings.</LI></OL> <P>Now that we know what an illusion is, we can plainly see that all changes in a virtual world are technically illusions.   While I agree that a virtual world has qualities that may make it seem as if it was a real world, it is only an "illusion", and because of that, there are no physical changes to characters. </P> <P>Lastly, you asked to be given one star.</P> <P> </P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Referring to the dictionary to prove a point is like having an encyclopedia cited within a bibliography, which gets you an "F".

[SniperKitty]

"But while we are on the subject, my sneak skill is really good but I don't like the decreased movement that comes with it. Can we remove the speed decrease part of this spell please. Just because it ruins my enjoyment of the game" ~ Cygnus Exactly!  I play a rogue too.  I don't like the crouching and slow movement either.  So lets get rid of it and make it so we run at normal speed and posture while stealthed... well actually, give me the ability to /hide_stealtheffects.  After all, it "ruins" my enjoyment of the game, sneaking so slow.  While we're at it, I hate riding griffins.  I want a / command that let's me teleport wherever I want to go.  After all, the travel time from zone to zone "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.  Also, I hate mismatched armor.  I want to wear whatever armor I want to, but be able to look like whatever I want to, regardless of class, race.  So give me some commands or options to change the appearance of my armor pieces to whatever I want.  After all, being forced to wear mismatched armor "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.  I don't like leveling.  I want to be able to push a button and be level fifty with all adept3's of my spells and combat arts.  Afterall, the leveling grind "ruins" my enjoyment of the game. I could go on and on and on with different examples of how something "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.  The point is, there's no reason for this change, except that the devs caved in to the whiners. The shapechange spells change the characters shape for a reason.  The beneficial effects of the buff come from the changed shape itself.  Without the shape, there's no reason the characters should get the benefits of the buff.  The drawbacks of the spell are the increased size of the form.  Wardens get a Bee illusion.  Mystics get a Snake illusion.  Defilers get a Kohlrat illusion.  I'm not sure what the lvl 30 illusion is for Fury's though.  These illusions can be used over the shapechange spells to be smaller.  Heck, I'd love to the have the Snake illusion.  It's *$%#&! small and would be great for dungeons. This change is only the beginning.  People have seen that whining will get things changed, so now they're going to whine even more to get other things changed. You want the benefits of the buff, you deal with the drawbacks.  It's as simple as that and the devs lost sight of that. <div></div>

[Fennir]

And now to quote a bit of your own post: "Tough." I'll put all the money on my characters that this change is going through and there's nothing you can do about it except whine here like an idiot.  Which you're very good at, btw. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[LobaLobaLo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fennir wrote:<BR> How many classes are forced to change their image to cast a beneficial buff?  Not many.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Fennir on <SPAN class=date_text>04-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:48 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Shaman, Furies, Shadowknights, Illusionists are four that can change their forms that I know of.  I think wardens and necros might be able to as well.</P> <P>A fourth of the classes in game qualifies as not many?  Not to mention a lot of change form spells impose shape changes on others when cast, not just self changes...</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[LobaLobaLo]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Utess wrote:<BR>I've never had a problem with Illusions myself, but some do, and that impacts me as a Fury.  My shape changing spell isn't a buff, it is a heal with a buff as a side effect.  In fact, it is a 300+ point heal that also just happens to turn you into a Lion, give you 4 agi, and a proc.<BR><BR>The problem is most Furies just use it *as* a buff instead of a heal because changing into a Lion mid-fight can be very disorienting to several classes.  Likewise, some people do not like the lower perspective Lion form gives.  Especially a lot of tanks who like to be tall so they can get a clear view of everything.<BR><BR>So, yes, it is a nice change and one that will let me use one of my much needed heals on anyone regardless of their preference.  And, as for myself personally, my Lion form isn't a lame buff, it is actually a very critical buff to my survival.  It boosts my power, health, mitigation, resistances, and gives me a very nice proc.  The problem is, Lion form can be very awkward in dungeons and certain other situations, so the ability to turn it off is a big help.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Really, the problem you are descibing is with the form change itself, or the too-many-birds-killed-with-one-stone nature of the spell.  Lion form is just poorly executed, not shape changes in general.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's like the stupid laugh that occurs with skeletons.  The shape change itself is pretty cool.  Hearing the *$%#&! laugh everytime you jump or take damage can get really annoying, if you're not a fan . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Blackguard]

<div></div>While I understand where you're coming from, this was one of the most often requested features from those who play classes with illusions. Anything that makes the game more fun isn't considered a waste of developer resources in my book. Side note: Calling other members of the community "crybabies" and "whiners" doesn't endear you to anyone. Please keep the insults off the forums. <div></div>

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR> While I understand where you're coming from, this was one of the most often requested features from those who play classes with illusions. Anything that makes the game more fun isn't considered a waste of developer resources in my book.<BR><BR>Side note: Calling other members of the community "crybabies" and "whiners" doesn't endear you to anyone. Please keep the insults off the forums.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>In all fairness Blackguard, the perception is issues such as these are important in the long run, but there are so many issues rigth now that we wonder about the prioritizaion that exists.  As a community we are really looking to SOE to provide resolutions to the 'bugs' we perceive, deal with the current 'overland population' vs group issues, and come to a viable (fair) balance amongst the classes.  Further, pathing and other zone oriented issues are in that mix as well.</P> <P>When something as trivial as this (yes, I hate getting changed into a lion by a fury) is being worked on instead of utilizing the resources for more perceived problems, then you will get reactions (right or wrong) like these.</P> <P> </P>

[Shadowlo]

<DIV>I actually agree with sniper, yes some people may not like the illusion but it is part of the effect for the spell.</DIV>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>The only "illusions" that are worthwhile buffs, are NOT ILLUSIONS.  They are physcial changes to the characters body and that's why the buff grants the enhancements it does.  The /hide_illusion command is a pointless waste of the devs time and a copout.  The devs are caving in to the whining crybabies.  If you want the benefits of the buff, deal with the frakkin' shapechange then you freaking crybabies.  Otherwise don't use the damned thing.  It's that simple.  Alternatively, you can use an illusion, like Call of the Fae or Rowyl's Form of the Vale (although it does say form) to cover up the wolf / lion / bear / whatever form.<BR><BR>Point is, the spells are physical changes to the character.  They are not illusions that you can simply get rid of.  The point of the buffs is that you get the benefits from the physical shape your character is in.  Colossus from the X-Men had to change his skin to metal to get the benefits of his invulnerability.  He couldn't just 'turn off' the metal but still be invulnerable.  You should not be allowed to hide the physical change of shapechange buffs.  They are technically not an illusion, but a physical change of the character.<BR><BR>I fully expect all the crybabies to come out of the woodwork and one star me.  Bring it on whiners.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's far less resources than:</P> <P>1) Fixing the bounding boxes of the models so being "in-form" wouldn't be such a pain in close quarters like dungeons.</P> <P>2) Doing the extra animations for sitting, and swimming, and jumping that are missing from most forms.</P> <P>3) Finding and fixing the issue where half the form sinks into the ground when you get to close to a wall.</P> <P>4) Finding and fixing the issue where your regular form "stands" at a 45 degree angle or worse if the animal form wears off on a slope.</P> <P>There, now that you have some actual information on how /hide_illusion actually uses LESS resources, I think you'll agree that your post was pretty much one big whine, you crybaby.</P>

[MillsFairchild]

I wish they would /unhide_illusions for Illusionists. <div></div>

[Os]

<P>I think /hide_illusion is GREAT.</P> <P>I have a very cute halfing shaman, she either flies around in hawk form or bear form. The bear spell is a HUGE stat/HP/power  boost so really I don't have much choice in using it if I want to be a competant player/healer.</P> <DIV>It makes me sad that unless I was in town, no one would every see her, or her armor. EVER. What the point in spending all that time on the character generator to be unique when I look like 100s of other bears out there?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes there are lots of bugs... But if this took 15 minutes of a developers time to enter a couple of lines of code that go from "show_illusion= B" to "show_illusion=0" if option X=1 then YAY thanks devs!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Merkad]

I am in complete disagreement SniperKitty. Except perhaps on whether the buff are illusions or metamorphs, I have not read the description to decide that. Nor do I care what they are really. What I do care about is not looking like some lion/bear, or for God's sake, a human/owlbear. I don't use illusions, and I ask group members not to cast them on me, and click them off when casted. As much as I prefer the Soga models, I do take some small measure of pride in how my character looks. I do not like having  that changed (same with EQlive wolf form for rangers, it was pretty annoying having to use a bug to remove those annoyances) and I am sure my group members don't like being told not to use their spells because I find them annoying (they're guildies, so they can't get rid of me <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ). Merkades, 50th Ranger. Btw, when I mentioned this to my guildies, most found it cool, the rest did not care, and one promptly used owlbear on me O_o, fortunately, not for much longer. <div></div>

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:<div></div>While I understand where you're coming from, this was one of the most often requested features from those who play classes with illusions. Anything that makes the game more fun isn't considered a waste of developer resources in my book. Side note: Calling other members of the community "crybabies" and "whiners" doesn't endear you to anyone. Please keep the insults off the forums. <div></div><hr></blockquote>So, if I whine enough and cry enough and get enough people to do the same thing, like the others did to get this change, I can get something done to make the game more "fun"?  Like say for instance, removal of the crouch posture and speed debuff aspects of the scout stealth lines?  I mean, it's just a visual / movement impediment that doesn't effect others.  So why can't I have a / command to hide the visual/movement effects of stealth? That's pretty much what the main complaint about the form spells was.  The shapechange hides the appearance of the character and provides a visual and movement impediment.  Stealth arts, just like the form spells, also hide the characters armor and appearance and provides a movement impediment.  So why not throw in a command to remove those "unfun" aspects of the stealth arts from the game? With this /hide_illusion command, you've opened up a can of worms.  You've basically said if enough people whine about something to try and get the game to be made "more fun", it'll happen.  I wholeheartedly disagree with this new command.  It's ridiculous.  You're taking an integral part of the buff and removing it, but allowing the player to still have the benefits.  It's stupid.  Why not just give the whiners a button that dings them to lvl 50 and all their adept3 spells while you're at it.  I'm sure some of them would whine about having to level up and that not being fun.</span><div></div>

[Dave]

I have to disagree with SniperKitty.  Being able to hide the cosmetic effect of one of these spells and still enjoy the game-play effects is no different than wanting the protection of wearing a helmet but still being able to see your head by using the /showhood command.

[Timt]

Anyone know if this will affect Spirit Totems too ? At the moment the Sprit of Wolf Totem is very useful in that it gives you a 24% speed buff outside of combat, but had a drawback in that you take wolf form and some operations like jumping become a lot trickier (try jumping around Zek gate traps). Now if you can choose to turn off the wolf form then there is no reason not to have SoW on pretty much all the time (if you can afford it that is). This is good news for Woodworkers like me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> With regard to the OP's rant, whilst his tone is a bit harsh, his point about priorities is valid. This feature won't change the number of people quitting/buying the game regardless of which way it's configured, so it should be bottom of the pile when it comes to developer time. Sure there may be some people complaining about it, but I can guarantee there are 100 times more people complaining about lag, broken quests, class balance, broken spells, mob pathing, raiding content etc. etc. These are the things that people will leave over not the fact that they look like a bat. <div></div>

[Jan It]

The vast majority will love this change and so do I. We will still move around in that forms more or less often, but we´re not forced to do it all the time. And for all who think it would be unrealistic to get a form that grants bonuses, but to be able to turn those forms off, actually the devs have heard your pleas. Characters now will still be forced to stay in the form needed to get the boni but each class gets a new spell, activated by a command word, that allows us to cover our form by our original appearance.<span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>BallardDav wrote:I have to disagree with SniperKitty.  Being able to hide the cosmetic effect of one of these spells and still enjoy the game-play effects is no different than wanting the protection of wearing a helmet but still being able to see your head by using the /showhood command. <div></div><hr></blockquote>That's the point!! It's not a cosmetic effect.  The beneficial aspects of the buff come from the actual change of the character's shape.  Warden of the Forest, the wolf form spell wardens get.  Increased visual, audio, and olfactory acuity is what allows them to have the See Hidden Vision aspect of the buff.  The thick, furry coat is what increases the wardens mitigation against damage.  The form of the wolf must allow the warden to be closer to the mystical aspect of nature, which increases power and health. The shapechange aspect should be considered an integral part of the spell.  </span><div></div>

[Jeridor]

It's not a waste.  Any class that has spells that shape shift while providing key benefits aside from an illusion will be thankful for this.  As a mystic, I *always* use bear form and frankly as cool as the illusion can be, or was, it's often obstructive as I take up a lot of the screen when in a group, especially in dungeons.  Plus I like the way my character looks, I don't want to be forced to look like a bear to get the bear form benefits.  I'm quite thankful for this command. <div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BallardDav wrote:<BR>I have to disagree with SniperKitty.  Being able to hide the cosmetic effect of one of these spells and still enjoy the game-play effects is no different than wanting the protection of wearing a helmet but still being able to see your head by using the /showhood command. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That's the point!! It's not a cosmetic effect.  The beneficial aspects of the buff come from the actual change of the character's shape.  Warden of the Forest, the wolf form spell wardens get.  Increased visual, audio, and olfactory acuity is what allows them to have the See Hidden Vision aspect of the buff.  The thick, furry coat is what increases the wardens mitigation against damage.  The form of the wolf must allow the warden to be closer to the mystical aspect of nature, which increases power and health.<BR><BR>The shapechange aspect should be considered an integral part of the spell.  <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So how do you explain /showhood, which is in the game already and allows someone to have all the effects and stats of a helm without needing to actually wear it?

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeridor wrote:<BR>It's not a waste.  Any class that has spells that shape shift while providing key benefits aside from an illusion will be thankful for this.  As a mystic, I *always* use bear form and frankly as cool as the illusion can be, or was, it's often obstructive as I take up a lot of the screen when in a group, especially in dungeons.  Plus I like the way my character looks, I don't want to be forced to look like a bear to get the bear form benefits.  I'm quite thankful for this command.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I had to ask a mystic to move once because he was standing on the broker.  She was actually <EM>entirely</EM> inside him, only when he did the odd "sniff the ground" animation where he lowered his head could you see any of her, and that was only the top of her head. 

[Vandessa]

<DIV>I am so glad this spell is going in, no offense to mystics, but sometimes your big bear form made it hard to see in tight dungeon settings <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Not only that our Defiler spell is pure particle effects and can lag out less fortunate players with non-fancy machines. If I'm in a group I'd like to hide my illusion if it means I don't lag our tank out or something similar. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a great addition, I personaly applaud the use of the resources.</DIV>

[SniperKitty]

I don't like that command either.  It should not remove helms from view, only raise and lower hoods on applicable robes/tunics. <div></div>

[Katx]

<P>I have really mixed feelings on this.  On the one hand, I think there are already plenty of options to get around being "stuck" in bear/lion/wolf form already.  We honestly have a ton of options for this.</P> <P>On the other, as a Fury, I will be happy to be able to use Predatory and/or Feral Salve since it's a good heal I never used much as virtually no one in my guild wants to be turned into a lion mid-fight.</P> <P>Another bummer is that if people have their showforms turned off, we won't be able to use all the cool spells we have to mess with each other and turn them into bats, frogs, rust monsters, etc.  That's kind of sad.  :smileysad:</P> <P>Really mixed feelings.</P> <p>Message Edited by Katxim on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:28 AM</span>

[Ashlian]

<P>Frankly, if I wanted to play a game that simulated reality, I'd.....wait, I DON'T want to play a game that simulates reality that closely. Sometimes I enjoy my ability as a Fury to change form, as in at the moment when half my armor doesn't match, but it truly is an annoyance in dungeons and when my friends take screenshots of my furry butt sticking up in the air, or when my brother disappears entirely into the ground with only his tail sticking out when he uses a Spirit Totem (valid point there on the spirit totems from an earlier poster).  There are  a lot of things I'd like the devs to spend a lot of time on other than fixing these issues, if, as has been repeatedly stated, all they have to do is turn the illusions off and leave the benefits on. And it got to the point where I cast Predatory Salve BEFORE combat just so I didn't have to hear the cries of [Removed for Content] happened to me on Teamspeak!</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, Fury of Mistmoore</P>

[Auntee]

<FONT size=2> <P></P></FONT> <HR> "<I>the mewling brats"<BR>"Increased Armor Class. <-- Big thick, furry coat."<BR>"Narcissist of the Glade"</I><I></I> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>ROFL! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <I>But if anyone does not reply with a Haiku then you are all very stupid and i hate you! </I> <HR> <FONT size=2></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Faceless Defiler<I><BR></I>With televangelist hair<I><BR></I>Should've clicked Yoppa</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[PerinSto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>I don't like that command either.  It should not remove helms from view, only raise and lower hoods on applicable robes/tunics.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So then why even have the tool to customize how you look?  In your ideal world it wouldn't matter what your character looks like at all.  Everyone would be covered head to toe in armor or in bear/wolf/lion form.  So why bother spending even 2 seconds to customize your looks?</P> <P>And why is it inconceivable to cast a spell and get the benefits of a wolf without looking like one?  I get a buff that adds to my strength.  Should I be upset that my toon doesn't grow bigger muscles when it is cast?  Or because my shield doesn't get bigger when I cast Weapon Shield?</P> <P>I somewhat understand your point about the hide_illusion, but the way you present it makes you sound like a raving lunatic.  <BR></P>

[Jatr]

Most of the whining I see has been from the OP That post was full of rambling and whining. <div></div>

[Elda]

<DIV>my problem with shapechange spells wasnt really that it made me look like a purple mist thing (defiler wraith form), it was more that my purple mist thing, or lion, or bear, looked just like everyone elses purple mist thing, or lion or bear. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>some of my enjoyment from this game is aesthetic, and comes from designing my characters look....if we were allowed to customize our illusion forms which we spend so much time in (priest classes), i don't think we'd have much problem with the way they look.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not all lions look exactly the same, especially magicaly enchanted lions. some might have longer manes, red fur, or white eyes. same with enchanted wolves, wraiths and bears.  a level 48 defiler turning into a wraith would probably have a much more forboding and horrific visage than a level 35....generally a characters apperance upgrades in a manner commensurate with his level....not so with illusions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it's the lack of individuality and diversity which bothers me, not the fact that i must shapeshift. i understand that creating a myriad of visual options for shapeshifting priest forms is probably about priority number 1000001 on the list of fixes (as well it should be), so the /hide_illusion command is a nice 'band-aid' until we hopefully see something else to combat the faceless anonymity of looking like every single other character of your class, regardless of level, every time you are in a combat zone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[b3taha]

<span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:The only "illusions" that are worthwhile buffs, are NOT ILLUSIONS.  They are physcial changes to the characters body and that's why the buff grants the enhancements it does.  The /hide_illusion command is a pointless waste of the devs time and a copout.  The devs are caving in to the whining crybabies.  If you want the benefits of the buff, deal with the frakkin' shapechange then you freaking crybabies.  Otherwise don't use the damned thing.  It's that simple.  Alternatively, you can use an illusion, like Call of the Fae or Rowyl's Form of the Vale (although it does say form) to cover up the wolf / lion / bear / whatever form. Point is, the spells are physical changes to the character.  They are not illusions that you can simply get rid of.  The point of the buffs is that you get the benefits from the physical shape your character is in.  Colossus from the X-Men had to change his skin to metal to get the benefits of his invulnerability.  He couldn't just 'turn off' the metal but still be invulnerable.  You should not be allowed to hide the physical change of shapechange buffs.  They are technically not an illusion, but a physical change of the character. I fully expect all the crybabies to come out of the woodwork and one star me.  Bring it on whiners. <div></div><hr></blockquote>First off. Why does this concern you? That is about it to my response. I think you are just here to create a post to vent your anger out on something else. What is really bothering you I don't know. (Psych 101 <span>:robottongue:</span>) </span><div></div>

[shtychk]

<DIV>Well I for one am happy they are making this change.... & I doubt it took a lot of resources to remove a shape change....</DIV>

[Fennir]

What's funny is that the mystics in my guild bought eyes for the respective characters they play, just so they could retain their original form. I'm still boggled that anyone could actually complain about this.... like my head hurts from trying to figure out where the OP is coming from.  Like I said... toolish people have toolish ideas. <div></div>

[Debillus]

<div></div><span>SniperKitty, listen up... here's the lowdown, and a few pointers that may (or may not) enlighten you on the subject. I myself have advocated for exactly this command, but I didn't bring it to these boards before I had actualy : 1) Experienced (playing my brigand) what grouping with a mystic in bear shape does for your view - and your enjoyment of same. 2) Played my own mystic to level 42, hence having "lived with" the consequences of the bear shape for 22 levels. 3) Endured my own frustrations of NEVER having MY toon visible the way I created him. Always being a bear, or some other illusion (now how's this for reality - I can throw a halfling illusion on my halfling, and then the bear spell if I wanna stay a halfling - only, not the halfling I created, but some other version). 4) Listened to endless comments from groupmembers (see #1) ranging from "please could you do something else than this bear" to "j00 st00pid biga$$ed bear rem0ve j00r stinkin' BUTT from my head" - I've seen them all. 5) To avoid the above having to cancel buff, throw illusion, recast bearspell every single time i zone, get escaped or take the bird or my horse. 6) Discussed this with the groups I've been playing with, as well as my guild. My thread can be found <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=5093" target=_blank>here</a> This is not whining. This is valid argumentation why a spell, which is MANDATORY for any mystic to keep up, should be optional. I can actualy relate to your point of view. It's not the first time I've heard it. Still, it's YOUR idea about how I should play / endure my class, and the abilities it facilitates. It has absolutely NO effect on how YOU play or endure YOUR game. /B </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Beetle on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:31 PM</span>

[Davi]

<DIV>Two last parting comments, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) any source of material used in any type of quoted material should be cited.  Many sources of information do this but of course there are no grades associated with great works of literature like that of Plato, Aristotle or of any other of the great thinkers associated with early literature.  Well you could of course say that their grade was their ultimate execution, but if that was the case then I wouldn't be writing this reply now... I would be in the afterlife because of my great thinking ability :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)  The general concern I see by those who would think the /showform comand is bad seems to be that some people consider it to be game mechanics that the form is somehow connected to the buff.  Because of it being connected in this way it should not be changed.  I call my earlier definition of illusion into the text here and would like to emphasize  that the planet of Norath is an illusionary world, the dev is god.  That said.... it is game mechanics that there be a /showform command and on the 7th day it was good and right.  :smileysurprised:</DIV>

[SniperKitty]

"<span> I can actualy relate to your point of view. It's not the first time I've heard it. Still, it's YOUR idea about how I should play / endure my class, and the abilities it facilitates. It has absolutely NO effect on how YOU play or endure YOUR game." No, I'm arguing for leaving things the way they were.  It's obvious the original intention of the devs, was for the casters that use these buffs, to change shape and learn to deal with the drawbacks.  It should remain that way.  I do have experience with the different shapes and their drawbacks as well.  I play a lvl 40 warden, lvl 23 defiler, and I've grouped with plenty of mystics.  It didn't take all that much effort to work out positioning so that we were on the outside edges of the group so we could heal effectively and deal with the visual impediment in tight quarters. Now what about ogres...  they're pretty big.  They block my view.  Especially in Runnyeye.  I want a / command that turns all ogres, and trolls while we're at it, into small fluffly bunnies. </span><div></div>

[DustusSapph]

<DIV>Try to play a mystic in that GIGANTIC bear form in a tight dungeon for 20 or so levels and then you'll understand why /hide_illusion is awesome.</DIV>

[SniperKitty]

Since the cat's out of the bag, let's list all the other beneficial buffs which have a drawback associated with them.  Why should any of them have a drawback that can't be removed now that we can remove the drawback of the shapechanging spells? Hold the Line - Warrior.  Roots the warrior in place. Sneak, et al. - Scout.  Forces the scout into an unnatural crouch posture and lowers their movement speed. Brawler's Stance - Brawler.  Lowers offensive skill. Knight's Stance - Crusader.  Lowers offensive skill. Those are just a few examples of buffs with benefits and drawbacks.  If one type of buff can have it's drawbacks removed, why can't the rest of 'em? <div></div>

[-AtPlay-]

<span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:Since the cat's out of the bag, let's list all the other beneficial buffs which have a drawback associated with them.  Why should any of them have a drawback that can't be removed now that we can remove the drawback of the shapechanging spells? Hold the Line - Warrior.  Roots the warrior in place. Sneak, et al. - Scout.  Forces the scout into an unnatural crouch posture and lowers their movement speed. Brawler's Stance - Brawler.  Lowers offensive skill. Knight's Stance - Crusader.  Lowers offensive skill. Those are just a few examples of buffs with benefits and drawbacks.  If one type of buff can have it's drawbacks removed, why can't the rest of 'em? <div></div><hr></blockquote>Probably because the devs never intended for the illusions to be drawbacks, but fun. </span><div></div>

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>DustusSapphic wrote:<div>Try to play a mystic in that GIGANTIC bear form in a tight dungeon for 20 or so levels and then you'll understand why /hide_illusion is awesome.</div><hr></blockquote>Uh hello McFly... I play a level forty warden.  I have played the game with a shapechange spell (big wolf form) for twenty levels.  You are a level twenty-six mystic.  That's only six levels as a bear.  Your math is flawed.</span><div></div>

[JWDaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>"But while we are on the subject, my sneak skill is really good but I don't like the decreased movement that comes with it. Can we remove the speed decrease part of this spell please. Just because it ruins my enjoyment of the game" ~ Cygnus<BR><BR>Exactly!  I play a rogue too.  I don't like the crouching and slow movement either.  So lets get rid of it and make it so we run at normal speed and posture while stealthed... well actually, give me the ability to /hide_stealtheffects.  After all, it "ruins" my enjoyment of the game, sneaking so slow.  While we're at it, I hate riding griffins.  I want a / command that let's me teleport wherever I want to go.  After all, the travel time from zone to zone "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.  Also, I hate mismatched armor.  I want to wear whatever armor I want to, but be able to look like whatever I want to, regardless of class, race.  So give me some commands or options to change the appearance of my armor pieces to whatever I want.  After all, being forced to wear mismatched armor "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.  I don't like leveling.  I want to be able to push a button and be level fifty with all adept3's of my spells and combat arts.  Afterall, the leveling grind "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.<BR><BR>I could go on and on and on with different examples of how something "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.  The point is, there's no reason for this change, except that the devs caved in to the whiners.<BR><BR>The shapechange spells change the characters shape for a reason.  The beneficial effects of the buff come from the changed shape itself.  Without the shape, there's no reason the characters should get the benefits of the buff.  The drawbacks of the spell are the increased size of the form.  Wardens get a Bee illusion.  Mystics get a Snake illusion.  Defilers get a Kohlrat illusion.  I'm not sure what the lvl 30 illusion is for Fury's though.  These illusions can be used over the shapechange spells to be smaller.  Heck, I'd love to the have the Snake illusion.  It's *$%#&! small and would be great for dungeons.<BR><BR>This change is only the beginning.  People have seen that whining will get things changed, so now they're going to whine even more to get other things changed.<BR><BR>You want the benefits of the buff, you deal with the drawbacks.  It's as simple as that and the devs lost sight of that.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>While I do like the change, I can understand the argument that the resources required for this may have been used elsewhere... of course that's assuming this required any resources whatsoever...<BR><BR>And they have another set of problems with the buff... first off there are many graphic errors with lion form (as well as with other shapeshifts).  Whenever I cast them on other classes (because as a Fury I have no choice BUT to cast them, since it's attached to my stupid [Removed for Content] heal line, and my instant heal at level 48 or whatever) I can cause many different viewing problems.  Now those are simple problems that cause me to have a more difficult time healing.  <BR><BR>I don't have a problem with my incomparable predator changing me into a lion.  I doubt Wardens do either.  I just think that in particular this was petitioned because of the Salve line from Furies.  Now, personally, I think they could've just removed that aspect of the line.  It's a healing line that unfortunately changes the shape of the target.  It's my LAST choice as heal, because of the higher cost, and because unless it's already up, I'm going to disorient the tank in the middle of combat, and in many cases, hide my view of him.<BR><BR>I think odds are, all they did was gin up a few lines of code to let players toggle on and off their image changes.  It probably was pretty simple, and didn't require much work, least it wouldn't seem like it would... but again, I fail to see what the big deal about it is?

[ChristopherK]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DustusSapphic wrote:<BR> <DIV>Try to play a mystic in that GIGANTIC bear form in a tight dungeon for 20 or so levels and then you'll understand why /hide_illusion is awesome.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Uh hello McFly... I play a level forty warden.  I have played the game with a shapechange spell (big wolf form) for twenty levels.  You are a level twenty-six mystic.  That's only six levels as a bear.  Your math is flawed.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fine, 50 Mystic here. Been playing bear form for 30 levels. If they spent even more time to just rename our "bear" buff to "spirit of the bear" where we only get the spirit of the bear and not the shapechange.. would that make it any different for you? Because I hate the bear form and have gone through hundreds of human bones to "illusion" myself before the shape change.</P> <P>As a mystic I have no other self buff that adds 300 or so Power and Health and a 10% chance to proc 300 with 50 per tick dot. And increase my mitigation etc.. So "NOT" using the buff isn't an option.</P> <P>Figure it took the Devs all of 5 minutes to add the /hide_illusion command in the game. Probably take a good half a day to change the spell all together to make it a non shapechange spell and relable it "spirit of"</P> <P><BR> </P>

[SniperKitty]

"As a mystic I have no other self buff that adds 300 or so Power and Health and a 10% chance to proc 300 with 50 per tick dot. And increase my mitigation etc.. So "NOT" using the buff isn't an option." It is an option.  One which you lack the willpower to excercise.  Instead, you and many others came whining to the devs to get the benefits without the drawbacks.  I, as a Warden, aggro magnet extraordinaire, rarely use Wolf form spells in groups.  About the only time I use wolf form is when soloing. <div></div>

[aerofr]

<P>sniper, does it seriously bother you so much that after this update some people might enjoy their class a little bit more?  you seem very angry about this.  </P> <P>also, approaching the arguement in such an immature manner doesn't really help your case.</P> <P>if other people currently have a choice of whether or not to use buffs, you'll have a choice after this update of using the hide illusion command OR NOT.</P> <P>sorry that a FANTASY game isn't realistic enough for you.  you're right though, when i turn into a wolf IRL to get the additional power, i'm stuck being a wolf.  lol</P>

[MilkToa]

I completely disagree,  it is a great feature that will improve the playing experience for many people. Personally, there are many classes I never considered playing because to perform optimally required taking on a different form.

[Squeg_Loud]

How is this different than /showhood? Roleplayers generally don their helmet before battle, at least. Some folks leave them on all the time. Others, while always wearing a hat, never show it.The benefits of the helmet definitely come from the helmet so obviously, it should be visible. But many, many, people really don't care for the look and in many games before have asked for a way to get their benefit without the poor fashion sense. Some games have invented "invisible armor" to compensate.Basicly, /showhood allows you to play how you want without adversly affecting anyone else's game play. The /hideillusion ability will do the same. Now, I'm unlikely to ever use it, but I'm also not going to call people names for wanting to use it themselves.As for the lion heal spell, I think it's FANTASTIC. Apparently people don't like it because i almost never have it cast on me. It was confusing the first time and i had to ask what was going on. But even as a ratonga and natural cat hater, i find it amusing. I get a good heal, a stat boost, and i can run around growling at people. What's not to love. Oh, and if I don't like it, I can cancel the spell after the heal, so what's the big deal?

[roarfrost]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>SniperKitty wrote:<BR><BR>All the benefits of the spell are directly tied to the shape of the warden as part of the spell. </P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Totally agree. A shapechange spell is NOT an "illusion". You actually take on that shape and receive the benefits of that shape accordingly.</FONT></P> <P>SOE should create a special buff for the mewling crybabies called "Pansies of the Forest" or "Narcissist of the Glade", the completely and irrevocably removes any shapechange or illusion spell from their character</P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>[Removed for Content]</FONT> :smileyvery-happy:<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[aerofr]

<DIV>perhaps they should remove the ability to chat while in shapechanged mode then, as the ability to talk is generally not found among the wolves or lions that i've met.</DIV>

[roarfrost]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR> While I understand where you're coming from, this was one of the most often requested features from those who play classes with illusions.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So if I go to the Illusionists forum, and ask what their #1 issue is, this will be it?</P> <P>Shapechanges are not illusions!</P> <P>This is just more proof that resources ARE being wasted on non-crucial /pizza-like rubbish, while legitimate problems abound - (e.g. Class balance, Guild problems, bugged zones, borked content, pathing errata, etc.) Get ALL your teams working on exisiting legitimate problems please; we can wait on nonsense like this for a later date.<BR></P>

[aerofr]

<DIV>I'm immediately PMing all the devs and requesting that they contact you for a revised list of their priorities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sooooo happy about this change i might just buy another account so they don't feel the loss of your business (since you seem so upset i'm assuming you won't continue to play a game that causes you so much distress)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks SOE, this change rocks</DIV>

[Fennir]

The funniest part of this thread is that the OP probably spent more time whining and bumping it than the devs did adding this feature. The devs may not be the ones who need to re-examine their priorities, "SniperKitty." <div></div>

[Merkad]

Actually he said "one of the most often requested" and "those who play classes with Illusions", btw don't delude yourself into thinking he meant only classes who actually have illusory changes, that "those" will absolutely include the multitudes like me, who have no self illusion, but just hate others casting them on me. So, you may not find this the number one Illusionist complaint, indeed even an illusionist complaint at all, as the majority of the people here are shaman/druids and those who get buffed by them. Excepting group human form, I have not had to say anything to chanters. Merkades, 50th Ranger. At any rate, I am glad the two of you are fighting a losing battle, your desire to make the game more "real" is a serious detriment to the fun/usefulness/aesthetic values in game. <div></div>

[SniperKitty]

It's not a fight to make the game more real, but consistent.  It's so great of you all to ignore the short list I posted above about other classes buffs with detriments.  How about commenting on them ya morons.  You know... like Hold the Line?  How is it fair to Warriors that they're stuck with the detrimental effect of HtL while wardens, mystics, and others can get rid of the deterimental  effect of their buff? <div></div>

[aerofr]

<DIV>i kind of like the ability to change form, so i never considered it a downside.  i just like the option.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>odd that you do though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tasah]

Good call SoE!  I for 1 am glad to see this.  I hate lion form (i'm a fury) yet it's a fantastic buff, so I often find myself using my DE mask or a random petrified stone to "cover up" the lion form illusion.  While this certainly isn't anything game breaking, it is a good thing imo and a change for the better.  Thanks!

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:<div></div>While I understand where you're coming from, this was one of the most often requested features from those who play classes with illusions. Anything that makes the game more fun isn't considered a waste of developer resources in my book. Side note: Calling other members of the community "crybabies" and "whiners" doesn't endear you to anyone. Please keep the insults off the forums. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Really? One of the most common request from players is new looks for armor of all levels for many pieces. This makes the game more fun. But we were told, No, and don't look for it for a long time.

[Fennir]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:It's not a fight to make the game more real, but consistent.  It's so great of you all to ignore the short list I posted above about other classes buffs with detriments.  How about commenting on them ya morons.  You know... like Hold the Line?  How is it fair to Warriors that they're stuck with the detrimental effect of HtL while wardens, mystics, and others can get rid of the deterimental  effect of their buff? <div></div><hr></blockquote>This is great.  One, you don't even have a logical argument anymore, and two, now you're calling the form detrimental (like everyone who wants to be able to hide it).  Even though the only reason you have to argue for it is that it 'enhances roleplay' and is 'realistic.' Unfortunately you don't have the intelligence to differentiate between what is detrimental for a REASON, and what is detrimental INCIDENTALLY. The detrimental effect of the Hold the Line buff is there to offset the defensive power of the buff.  The detrimental effect prevents the buff from being TOO powerful. The detrimental effect of bear form is not there to offset the power of the buff, it was there to add to the FLAVOR of the buff.  The form doesn't affect gameplay to any significant degree except to just look ugly and get in the way. Are you honestly attempting to argue that the designers of the spell said "well we gave them all these cool things with this buff, so now we must balance it by making them a huge bear"? I sure hope you don't wonder why so many of us think you're a freaking *$%#&!.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Fennir on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 PM</span>

[Merkad]

SniperKitty, you will engender no support with your constant crass and rude remarks, even people who may agree with you will think you are an *$%#&! and not want to be associated with you. Do you really wonder why this is as it is? It is not hard to figure out, Hold the Line, Brawlers Stance et al. affect one person, the caster. Perhaps, if enough of them cared, or thought it significant, then they would make motions to have it altered. Also I concur with a previous poster, I think they were more for the cool aspect rather than the cool buff with a suck factor, most likely, just a cool idea that did not work out. It certainly strikes me as funny that they pride themselves on their millions of combinations of character customization just so you can look like the same bear every 20+ shaman is. Regardless of whether I am right in my musings, or you in yours, this is not wanted by SOE or the majority player base and as such, it is getting altered. On another note.. consistent? The only thing consistent with eq2 so far is inconsistency. I'd expect a bit of that for a few months, but I think the sheer depth and sweeping changes is excessive. Merkades, 50th Ranger. <div></div>

[ChristopherK]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>It's not a fight to make the game more real, but consistent.  It's so great of you all to ignore the short list I posted above about other classes buffs with detriments.  How about commenting on them ya morons.  You know... like Hold the Line?  How is it fair to Warriors that they're stuck with the detrimental effect of HtL while wardens, mystics, and others can get rid of the deterimental  effect of their buff?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Because wardens (duststorm) mystics (oberon) still root the caster in place when cast. As posted above, the shape change illusion was not intended to be detrimental to the player. It was meant to be FUN!~!!. As being rooted using HTL or draining power using any of the fighter desperate/flury/rush spells, those effects were intened.</P> <P>Now.. BAD kitty, BAD BAD BAD Kitty. SHHH.</P> <p>Message Edited by ChristopherKee on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:57 PM</span>

[Trucegore_Vonbloodwor]

<div></div>- Get the benefits of illusion spells without changing your appearance! - You can now use the /hide_illusions command to disable illusion spell effects on your character. If illusions are disabled on your character, other players will not see the illusion either. Taken from <a target="_blank" href="message?board.id=tup&message.id=44">HERE</a> And directly Related to <a target="_blank" href="message?board.id=spellart&message.id=40170&view=by_date_ascending&page=1">This Thread</a> And the new lore on the Druid subclass <strong>Class Description</strong> Druids are students of a deeper knowledge of nature. Their spells and abilities derive from the living world, the natural elements, and they are the masters of regenerative healing. The Druid class is one of the intermediate classes in EverQuest II. <a target="_blank" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/playguide.vm?classId=11">Priests</a> who aspire toward an affinity with nature shown by the druid will select this class at level 10, after a Hallmark quest to earn their adventurer class. Later at level 20, after another Hallmark quest, the druid will further specialize into a subclass: fury or warden. And the spell in question.... Peerless Predator Augmentation, placed only on the fury, that grants a lion form that augments Health, Power, Armor Class and adds See Hidden with the chance for an additional melee attack. <hr> <div align="center"><font size="4">Its not an illusion, its a SHAPE CHANGE!</font> </div>  If your going to leave this in. Then I want the necromancer class to have nothing to do with animating the dead. <span>:smileymad:</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Trucegore_Vonbloodworth on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:50 PM</span>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div>"Augmentation, placed only on the fury, that grants a lion form that augments Health, Power, Armor Class and adds See Hidden with the chance for an additional melee attack." Hrm, I don't see the word illusion anywhere in that spell description.  Guess it's not an illusion and shuold thus be exempt from the stupid /hide_illusion command.  In fact, if I recall correctly, when I right click and examine what my warden's buffs do... I do believe they specifically state, "Shapechanges caster".  There should be no question on whether these spells are actually shapechanges or illusions. The benefits from the buffs are directly tied to the shape the caster changes into.  You should not be allowed to have your cake and eat it too.  It's wrong. <div></div><p>Message Edited by SniperKitty on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 PM</span>

[-AtPlay-]

<span><blockquote><hr>Trucegore_Vonbloodworth wrote:<div></div><div align="center"><font size="4"> Its not an illusion, its a SHAPE CHANGE!</font> </div>  If your going to leave this in. Then I want the necromancer class to have nothing to do with animating the dead. <hr></blockquote>From <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/index.vm" target=_blank>here:</a> Druid: Druids are mighty priests whose powers are closely tied to nature.  They heal and purge ailments from their party, blessing their companions with enhanced physical prowess. The Druid gets his/her power from nature, not from the shapechange.  Necromancer: Necromancers summon the dead and imbue them with unnatural life.  These pitiful but powerful creatures are slaves to their masters until the grave claims them once more.  Lords of death and decay, these powerful mages strike fear into the hearts of their enemies. Sorry, your class description says you have to summon the dead and such.</span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>"Augmentation, placed only on the fury, that grants a lion form that augments Health, Power, Armor Class and adds See Hidden with the chance for an additional melee attack."<BR><BR>Hrm, I don't see the word illusion anywhere in that spell description.  Guess it's not an illusion and shuold thus be exempt from the stupid /hide_illusion command.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If you don't like it, don't use it - it's hardly being forced upon you.  :shrug:</DIV>

[Kylan]

<blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote:<DIV>If you don't like it, don't use it - it's hardly being forced upon you. :shrug:</DIV><hr></blockquote>The problem is that it's another example of SOE dumbing down the game to cater to non-roleplayers that simply don't "get" this type of game. It's not that Sniper is angry that others don't have to see the illusion, it's that the spirit of the game is being ripped away piece by piece to cater to people who really don't understand the genre. The next thing to happen is that instead of more content like illusions being added, the Devs will say "Well, the players didn't like what we did before" and be faced with the decision. Either we code new content _and_ a way to <B>skip</B> new content for the non-rp folk, twice the work, or we just don't add it at all and work on something else. Sadly that's a clear choice.Take alchohol effects from EQ1? A WONDERFUL feature. Fun, funny and used in live events all the time. Being drunk isn't in EQ2 yet. Now, because of the complaining about illusions and this Plague, do you think the devs will add in the blurry/blank vision, slurred speech and uncontrolled movement of the alcohol effects? Can you imagine the outcry from that with today's EQ2 players? They'd have to develop those, and develop a way to not have them for some, totally doing away with the whole purpose of it. It's a feature that should be in game, many people REALLY want it in game, but sadly the complaining few might keep it from the game, because they just don't get Everquest.<p>Message Edited by Kylania on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:48 PM</span>

[SniperKitty]

I'm going to make sure I use wolf form in groups all the time now and not hide it, just to tick people off.  Going to make sure I get right up in their face too while I melee the mob.  Scouts are going to get a taste of wolf tail all the time now.  This change to the way shapechange buffs work is ridiculous.  May as well remove all the detrimental aspects of buffs just to be fair to the other classes. <div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kylania wrote:<BR><BR><BR>The problem is that it's another example of SOE dumbing down the game to cater to non-roleplayers that simply don't "get" this type of game. It's not that Sniper is angry that others don't have to see the illusion, it's that the spirit of the this game is being ripped away piece by piece to cater to people who really don't understand the genre.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There's two "Roleplay Prefered" servers, they aren't even *real* roleplaying servers as there is no SOE enforcement on them.  Whatever gave you the idea that SOE was ever going to do anything <EM>other</EM> than cater to the non-roleplayers?  Given that even though I play on one of those servers (Lucan) and encounter perhaps one roleplayer per every 20-30 PC's I interact with, my guess is that "roleplayers" are the minority in a big way.  Combine that with the fact that even among the roleplayers everyone has a different idea on how exactly "roleplaying" should and should not work, and it's easy to see why SOE has taken this stance.  As roleplayers, we can't even agree to the same naming convention much less anything else, and honestly I prefer it that way.  Roleplaying to me incorporates a measure of freedom of expression.</P> <P>To use an example, what if my particular character has a <EM>reason</EM> for the shape not being available?  Not only is it roleplaying, but it's roleplaying on a greater scale than the majority.  Who is anyone to tell me how <EM>my</EM> character is affected by <EM>his</EM> weaker link to <EM>his</EM> god?  Not you, not Kitty, nobody but myself.<BR></P>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>I'm going to make sure I use wolf form in groups all the time now and not hide it, just to tick people off.  Going to make sure I get right up in their face too while I melee the mob.  Scouts are going to get a taste of wolf tail all the time now.  This change to the way shapechange buffs work is ridiculous.  May as well remove all the detrimental aspects of buffs just to be fair to the other classes.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's certainly your perogative.  You may irritate some players, but there's nothing keeping them in your group.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Miral]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fennir wrote:<BR>Uh, how stupid do you have to be to compare a major spell effect like sneak/invis speed to a completely visual effect like bear form?<BR><BR>Seriously, I want to know.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>but how fast a scout moves while invis does not effect your gameplay in any way... and the slow down DOES get very annoying for scouts. Sure the nature of the annoyance is different, but its the same issue in the end. Decreased enjoyment for scouts because they move slower, doesn''t effect anyone else if they change it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I'd love it if sneak didn't make you run so slow, then it would actually be a viable option to use while running around...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And bear form is more than just a visual effect, its also a really nice buff. As sneak is a nice "buff" to your ability to go unseen.</DIV>

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote: That's certainly your perogative.  You may irritate some players, but there's nothing keeping them in your group.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sure there is.  I'm the healer.</span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR><BR>That's certainly your perogative.  You may irritate some players, but there's nothing keeping them in your group.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sure there is.  I'm the healer.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your <EM><U>a</U></EM> healer, not <EM><U>the</U></EM> healer - plenty more where you came from <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Miral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR><BR>That's certainly your perogative.  You may irritate some players, but there's nothing keeping them in your group.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sure there is.  I'm the healer.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>that brings up another point, but i guess it will be for another thread, and thats that healers are currently the only class that you absolutely need in a group. talk about unbalanced.

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote: Your <em><u>a</u></em> healer, not <em><u>the</u></em> healer - plenty more where you came from <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, good luck with that.  I'll still get plenty of groups no matter what.  High level healers, that are good, are always in demand.</span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>SniperKitty wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>Yeah, good luck with that.  I'll still get plenty of groups no matter what.  High level healers, that are good, are always in demand.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Er, didn't you just say you were going to go out of your way to get all in the scout's faces and such, basically being as much of a nuisance to your groupmates as possible because you don't like this simple change?  That would make you a "high level healer, that <EM>isn't so good</EM>."  If you really do make good on that, I don't see you being in too much demand.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 PM</span>

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Er, didn't you just say you were going to go out of your way to get all in the scout's faces and such, basically being as much of a nuisance to your groupmates as possible because you don't like this simple change?  That would make you a "high level healer, that <em>isn't so good</em>."  If you really do make good on that, I don't see you being in too much demand.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class="date_text">04-15-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:03 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span>I'll still get groups.  I guarantee they won't risk losing a healer just because I'm in wolf form meleeing the mob. <div></div>

[Balthazar]

I love this added feature, and judging by the Warden forums, we all do.  But thanks for trying to speak for us, everybody likes to have their voice spoken by others.

[Meldari]

You know what, I'd actually agree with the original poster IF the shapechanges actually looked cool.  Unfortunately, the shapechanges I've been involved with are clunky, poorly-animated, and identical to the NPC counterparts.  No pizzaz.  No flair.  No style. In a perfect game, there would be a /hide_illusion command, but noone would want to use it. <div></div>

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>Balthazaral wrote:I love this added feature, and judging by the Warden forums, we all do.  But thanks for trying to speak for us, everybody likes to have their voice spoken by others. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Um, yeah.  Good job there.  Where did I say I was speaking for anyone?  Never.  I'm speaking for common sense and consistency.  Protector of the Forest and other similar spells, are SHAPECHANGE spells.  It says so right in the description of each spell when you right click and examine them.  If you want the benefits you get from being in wolf form, you should be forced to be a wolf.  It's that simple and you thickheaded dimwits can't seem to figure that out.  Changing shape is what grants the buff. Warriors have to remain rooted in place while they use the Hold the Line buff. Crusader's are effectively attacking as a character one level lower because of their Knight's Stance. Scouts are forced to crouch and move more slowely to use Sneak. How is it fair to those classes that they are forced to suffer the detrimental aspect of their buffs, but classes like druids and shamans, can just get rid of the detriment with a simple /hide_illusion command?  How is it fair to them? </span><div></div>

[aerofr]

<P>ahh...sniper, the Protector of Common Sense...they should add that in as a spell for you and shapechange (not illusion you as) you into....</P> <P>oh, i dunno, you can fill in the blank on that one.</P> <P>But you're right, i sure hope SOE doesn't make the mistake of making this game more enjoyable.  i hate that.</P>

[Ashlian]

<P>Just to repeat, it's not simply that I have to be in lion form....I'm quite vain enough to leave it off if I won't have much chance of meleeing. It's that I have to literally cast a heal on my party members before a battle starts so that they're not totally disoriented by their sudden change to lion form....and it can also be extremely hard to assist someone who gets the half stuck in the ground bug because I changed them while they were too close to a wall or inclined surface. Personally, bugs like that do far more to ruin my immersion in this game than someone choosing not to use an illusion.</P> <P> I also take offense at being labeled someone who doesn't "get" Everquest.....I played one from the second week the servers were up and I enjoy roleplaying (I honestly spend five times as much decorating my apartment as I do on anything related to actual gameplay)  but I find it interesting that those of you advocating this "realism" are so stuck on something that actively discourages roleplaying, and turns my Fury into nothing more than one of a crowd, rather than allowing her distinction and life as an individual. </P> <P>No, I'm not forced to use that form, and with this new change, Sniper, you won't be forced to hide it if you want to stick your butt in someone's face. Though I do think it's a pity there are so few good healers on your server that your groupmates would feel it necessary to endure your harassment. At least you'll have the option, which is what I think the rest of us are pleased to have.....freedom of choice.</P> <P>Ashlian Liadan, Fury of Mistmoore</P>

[Bad_Mojo]

There's a difference between this:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>SniperKitty wrote:</P> <P>I'll still get groups.  I guarantee they won't risk losing a healer just because I'm <FONT color=#ffff00>in wolf form meleeing the mob</FONT>.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>I'm going to make sure I use wolf form in groups all the time now and not hide it, <FONT color=#ffff00>just to tick people off.  Going to make sure I get right up in their face too while I melee the mob.  Scouts are going to get a taste of wolf tail all the time now.</FONT>  This change to the way shapechange buffs work is ridiculous.  May as well remove all the detrimental aspects of buffs just to be fair to the other classes.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[Miral]

Turnn into the Common Sense pamphlet/book by Thomas Paine ^^ <DIV>sorry but it would be funny =P</DIV>

[aerofr]

only if the book has really really thick covers lol

[See]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR> While I understand where you're coming from, this was one of the most often requested features from those who play classes with illusions.  Anything that makes the game more fun isn't considered a waste of developer resources in my book.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>While I understand where you are coming from, the most common request from those who play classes with pets is that you make the 2/3 pets that do not work at all have some functionality added (you know, like you promised in both LU#2 and LU#7, then renegged on that promise!)  and that you take our buff lines that require zoning to take effect and make them work.  Anything that makes the game unplayable shouldn't be considered a waste of development resources either.  But where you appear to be blind is the difference between "playable" and "fun."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So my question is how do you justify giving this fluff attention to Illusionists when you can't give functionality to Summoners?  It's much akin to being rushed to the emergency room while having a heart attack and the doctor decides to take care of that ingrown toenail first.  In that world, we would call it malpractice and criminal.  Here, we just call it nepotism, ineptness, and poor customer service.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let's look at the almight "balance" that you keep talking about:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>On the one hand, you have a class that is completely broken, has been broken since beta, and has been lied to twice about getting its issues resolved.</LI> <LI>On the other hand you have a class that simply finds an INTENDED feature to be a mild annoyance.</LI></UL> <P>Now any rational person who understands that developer resources are finite would look at the two cases listed and would easily agree that those finite resources should be applied to the game-breaking BUGS before the INTENDED feature annoyances.  So that really leaves you with three choices:</P> <OL> <LI>Simply ignore the posts that display logic and reason</LI> <LI>Agree that it really is a waste of resources to give a class some fluff while putting off a broken class again</LI> <LI>Continue to spew the utter garbage that you found "in your book."</LI></OL> <P> </P> <P>In the end, we both know that I am right.  I'd be willing to bet that any rational Illusionist would agree as well.</P>

[Piz]

worst thread i've ever seen <div></div>

[Piz]

i don't get it, what the *$%#&! do you care?  It's a client side effect you seem to think it's a life and death situation <div></div>

[roarfrost]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seeko wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"So my question is how do you justify giving this fluff attention..."<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Thats exactly what it is. The least amount of work to temporailiy appease the masses enough to renew a few more months, while ignoring the big stuff (if not ignoring, then not dedicating enough resources to it). I swear I'm having SWG flashbacks more and more every day. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To hell with traditional fantasy lore or roleplaying, druids in this game apparently don't have to shapechange if its not convenient for them, they just get the benefits as if they had.  Anyone who doesn't like it gets flamed and insulted and has all their posts 1 starred by this petty community. Meanwhile, the true Illusionists get no real fixes, and don't use illusions, except fun spells that everyone in the game has access to via the eyes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please stop calling this a roleplaying game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[xe-cu]

IMHO if peeps turn off the illusion it should be only to them and not other members of the group or raid or on the server etc. So on there computer they have the oportunity to switch off the physical change, however others will view them with the changes unlike them viewing themself. To me that sounds like a fair comprimise?!?!?!?! Sorry if it has already been mentioend or if this is the way it now works as i aint had time to read the whole thread. <div></div>

[Debillus]

This thread is in fact disturbing to both common sense and my digestion. I won't get into details on the last one, but you get the picture. Not only does the OP have some weird envy-syndrome that imposes him to go ballistic on an issue that he can actualy choose to ignore, but this new command has no bearing on his way to play the game at all, unless he actively decides to use it. Additionaly a lot of people are showing a disturbing lack of common respect for other players needs and wants, only to promote their own highly arrogant "vision" of how the game must be. I will bet you worth a month's subscription, that this change in fact took less than 30 minutes to code. Not only have Blackguard explained why they did this, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out why so many people love this addition by looking at this thread alone. SniperKitty and whoelse in this thread arguing that this change should be left out, you still haven't answered the one basic question which actualy is the core of this. Why should your perception of how the game should be played, affect the way I play it - negatively, when this does absolutely nothing, nada, squilch, zip to how you play the game? This is very much NOT the same as the other negative sideeffects you mention. Let me give you an example ... My best slow spell is called Mourning Soul. It slows the mob with +35%, but it roots me. Why does it root me - because having an extra advantage in battle like that should have it's price. I need to think before I use this spell. Not only does it generate extreme amounts of aggro, but it pretty much ensures my death if the main-tank goes down, yet - this spell can actualy make sure that doesn't happen. My bear shape has nothing but appearnce added to it. It doesn't remove anything from my ability list, and it doesn't add anything by itself, there's absolutely no balance issue involved with it. Period. /B <div></div>

[Miral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beetle wrote:<BR><BR>My best slow spell is called Mourning Soul. It slows the mob with +35%, but it roots me. Why does it root me - because having an extra advantage in battle like that should have it's price. I need to think before I use this spell. Not only does it generate extreme amounts of aggro, but it pretty much ensures my death if the main-tank goes down, yet - this spell can actualy make sure that doesn't happen. My bear shape has nothing but appearnce added to it. It doesn't remove anything from my ability list, and it doesn't add anything by itself, there's absolutely no balance issue involved with it. Period.<BR><BR>/B<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>bear form does add stats and a proc for mystics. its no different than any other buff, debuff, etc. only difference is bear form makes you always look like a plain bear, while other buffs, like say, knight's stance, lower other stats to raise the buffed ones. Now, the first spell loses its form and becomes just another buff that you can always have up. without any reprecussions. Really I don't care if mystics look like bears or not, so long as more important issues are also taken care of. However many people seem to be misinformed and think that animal forms are JUST illusions, or somehow different from the buffs other classes get</DIV>

[Strade]

<P>Ok I agree with the OP. It dosent make any sens that these form can be hide, I got a shammy, a fury too. Those form are not as annoying as people make it to be. The bear can easily avoid by hawk form, the fun spell shammy get at lvl 20. And the lion form isnt that big.</P> <P>Please DEV, the hide illusion isnt really needed. Just shrink the size of those animals. My warlock love to change stupid people in frog (and many others in the group love it too). Would'nt like this feature removed cause the people cant handle 3rd person perspective style of play.</P> <P>It dosent make any sens in a role play view as well. I don't remeber people in Eq1 whining about the wolf form cause the wolf was actually of a normal size. As a fury, i use my form only when needed and clic it of to travel in town or safe place or even when i meet people on the road.</P> <P> </P>

[Vaelorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LobaLobaLoba wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sniper, you have my agreement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They aren't illusion spells at all once they make the illusion optional; just lame buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Unless there's some sort of performance issue associated with illusions, I don't see why the illusion toggle is necessary either.</U></STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is the single most important reason that this sort of command was <STRONG>necessary</STRONG>.  On my old machine, I could play EQ2 just fine with graphics turned down, but as soon as a Conjuror turned themselves into a flaming elemental, my framerate would literally crawl under a rock and die every time they appeared on my screen.</DIV>

[Miral]

now the conjuror is an actual illusion, it grants no buffs. THIS, sure, let it so that you can opt not to see other peoples funspell illusions...

[LobaLobaLo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR> While I understand where you're coming from, this was one of the most often requested features from those who play classes with illusions. Anything that makes the game more fun [read: <FONT size=5>PROFITABLE</FONT>] isn't considered a waste of developer resources in my book.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Alright, so you're caving to the wishes of a community that would ask for a god mode, knowing full well it ruins the longevity of the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Superheroes don't wear costumes that resemble their supertalents for nothing.  The form should be inseparable from the function.  You just don't get it, do you?  When the shaman is calling on the supernatural strength of the bear, it's ok to have him shapeshift -- it's a part of roleplaying.  Allowing a toggle and other conveniences get further and further away from roleplaying *cough* /pizza *cough*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It doesn't surprise me that you guys are taking this destructured route, though.  A lot of the SK abilities are Shadow Knight in name only.  Decrepit Slam?  Ooh.  So EVIL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>q: decrepit slam?  what's that?</DIV> <DIV>a: it's a shadowknight slam</DIV> <DIV>q: ah, what's so decrepit about it?</DIV> <DIV>a: hmm, good question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>q: bear form eh?  what's so hot about that?</DIV> <DIV>a: it's a shaman ability that mimics a bear and gives me increased stats.</DIV> <DIV>q: you don't look like a bear, though?</DIV> <DIV>a: oh, i turned it off.  bears are lame.</DIV><p>Message Edited by LobaLobaLoba on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:09 AM</span>

[LobaLobaLo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaelorn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LobaLobaLoba wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sniper, you have my agreement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They aren't illusion spells at all once they make the illusion optional; just lame buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Unless there's some sort of performance issue associated with illusions, I don't see why the illusion toggle is necessary either.</U></STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is the single most important reason that this sort of command was <STRONG>necessary</STRONG>.  On my old machine, I could play EQ2 just fine with graphics turned down, but as soon as a Conjuror turned themselves into a flaming elemental, my framerate would literally crawl under a rock and die every time they appeared on my screen.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Then that's a valid reason for the toggle, in my book, anyway.</DIV>

[aerofr]

<DIV>since you are in no way being forced to participate in this, i fail to understand why the simple fact that it makes a LOT of people happy (even you can't argue with this) isn't enough of a reason for some of you to stop compaining about this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you can't be serious with the "nothing else has or ever will get done that i want done because SOE wasted time making people enjoy the game more" arguement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The OP, Miral, Roar...you seem like mean and spiteful people.  i'm glad sony doesn't bow to your whims.  i hope they will continue making changes that the majority of the audience finds enjoyable.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i guess i'm not enough of a hardcore gamer to be so annoyed at slight inconsistancies in a fantasy game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or just not hateful enough.</DIV>

[Debillus]

<span><blockquote><hr>Miral wrote: <div>bear form does add stats and a proc for mystics. its no different than any other buff, debuff, etc. only difference is bear form makes you always look like a plain bear, while other buffs, like say, knight's stance, lower other stats to raise the buffed ones. Now, the first spell loses its form and becomes just another buff that you can always have up. without any reprecussions. Really I don't care if mystics look like bears or not, so long as more important issues are also taken care of. However many people seem to be misinformed and think that animal forms are JUST illusions, or somehow different from the buffs other classes get</div><hr></blockquote>You are missing the point. If being a bear <i>by itself</i></span><span> </span><span>had any effect on the game then you argument would be valid. It doesn't, unless of course you find annoyance a parameter <span>:smileysurprised:</span> If you want to open the lid on this can of worms, then you need to go all the way .... > I can still speak to my group - bears doesn't speak, heck I can even emote. </span><span>> </span><span>I can still use my equipment - my halfling gear wouldn't fit any bear, except perhaps my hat (which i dont see anyway ... /showhood off) </span><span>> </span><span>I can still wield my hammer - I dont see my hammer on the bear, anywhere. </span><span>> </span><span>I dont run any faster - We all know that bears are fast --- especially compared to a chunky halfling. </span><span>> </span><span>I can eat and drink stuff a bear wouldn't touch, and I don't get any bonus stats when consuming something with honey in it. </span><span>> </span><span>Other bears will still attack me, allthough I'm obviously one of their own ... etc. </span><div></div>

[Jays]

<P>I'm amazed at the vitriolic reaction of the OP to this change in the ability to turn off illusions it is something the Mystic community has been asking SOE to look at for quite some time now. The Bear illusion being the biggest problem, If I had a gold for every time I get asked to move my big fat hairy butt because I'm obscuring the view of other people in my group then I would be plat rich in no time at all.</P> <P>Try to look at things like this from the other classes perspective not just from your own. Scouts are complaining they are screwed with the new combat changes and I am sure they would appreciate it if the whole of the EQ2 community supported them. They won't, if you isolate certain classes by making ill informed comments about the problems of illusions not just on Mystics but on other classes as well. It is an optional command!! If you wish to use illusion forms then you are free to do so. When I told the other members of my guild that this change to illusions was going to be implemented. they were delighted as they all recognized that it was something that was beneficial to the classes that had asked SOE to do something about it. </P> <P>Now I may be a little old fashioned in my viewpoint here but I firmly believe that we should not flame changes that are considered beneficial to the respective class, it is tantamount to asking for a nerfbat to land on "x class" cause "y class" doesn't like it. Lets put our efforts into improving our individual classes to the level that makes it more enjoyable to log on and play but still be a challenging experience. If X class gets a change that they have been begging SOE to implement lets applaud it not waste our time flaming it. </P> <P>I for one will never push to get a class nerfed! I still cannot reason why the OP has chosen to get on his soap box over this issue as I cannot see how it can be detremental to his gameplay. The only reason appears to be that some programmer has probably spent a little time changing the game code to accept this command and make it functional. </P> <P>I'm just pleased that SOE listened to the Classes that have asked for this change on regarding illusion and has done something about it. If they do the same with other classes issues then I will be very happy for them and not the slightest bit bitter!!!</P> <P>Ummari</P> <P>Lvl 45 Mystic</P> <P>Splitpaw</P>

[Araigad]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaysee wrote:<BR> <P>The Bear illusion being the biggest problem, If I had a gold for every time I get asked to move my big fat hairy butt because I'm obscuring the view of other people in my group then I would be plat rich in no time at all.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If I were you, I would have gotten the message after the second time I was asked and started trying to develop an awareness of where my big bear butt was, so it wasn't in the way all the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While we're at it, how about a /shrink_large_char command, so the little guys can see over the big guys?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Miral]

<P>or so the big guys can see around themselves in 3rd person lol =P</P> <P>*barbarian tank in stormhold*</P>

[Vaelorn]

Now that you mention the big bear butt, that was a pain too, especially in places like Stormhold and Crypt of Betrayal where space can get pretty tight.  When I was in COB working on AQ4 with my Ranger, I was often grouped with a lot of priests... so we had a lion, a wolf, and a bear in the group.  I cannot tell you how annoying it is to be fighting mobs and have a chest drop, and you want to disarm the trap on the box, but you can't even see the *$%#&! thing let alone click on it because of all the fluffy animals standing around where the mob died.  :smileytongue:

[arieste]

This is a great change, Im a female defiler that gets changed into a male every time i cast my best augmentation, this makes for a great temporary solution until the form is re-done.  I can stop lugging my mask around and looking like a freaking dark elf all the time too!  Now just to get some /show_arm or other /show_armor commands in there.  I have beautiful arm tattoes, I dont know if the DEVs expected people to fight naked or to *$%#&! at home and look at yourself when they made the arm/body art on the toons, since you  certainly cant see it beneath any kind of armour. And the look of my avatar is a big part of the game for me and I'm sure for many others who play it.  So it's definitely a worthwhile change. a. <div></div>

[Xelrek]

While Sony are putting game hacks in can we have  /standard_animal_size (or give druids/shamans Shrink as a spell) so that I can be a normal EQ1 looking wolf and not a genetically engineered one? I like the wolf form but not the stupid over the top size of it (same with the Fury badger form as well). On the subject of the form itself, I agree that it's a form an is not intended to be seen as buff that comes with a wolf illusion. For the EQ1 Druids I ask this, was wolf form turned into a major issue originally when it came out (as I never remember this much of a big deal over it before)? <div></div>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Beetle wrote:This thread is in fact disturbing to both common sense and my digestion. I won't get into details on the last one, but you get the picture.Not only does the OP have some weird envy-syndrome that imposes him to go ballistic on an issue that he can actualy choose to ignore, but this new command has no bearing on his way to play the game at all, unless he actively decides to use it. Additionaly a lot of people are showing a disturbing lack of common respect for other players needs and wants, only to promote their own highly arrogant "vision" of how the game must be. I will bet you worth a month's subscription, that this change in fact took less than 30 minutes to code. Not only have Blackguard explained why they did this, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out why so many people love this addition by looking at this thread alone.<hr><font color="#ffff00">They love the /hide_illusion command because they can have their cake, and eat it too.  They get the benefits of a great buff, but they don't have to deal with the drawbacks.  No other classes get that option.  Warriors can't stop the root effect of Hold the Line.  Brawlers and Crusaders can't stop of reduction of their offensive skills when using Brawler's Stance or Knight's Stance.  It's not fair to the other classes that a select few get the deterimental effects of one of their major buffs removed at will.  That's why they love this code.  They get to have their cake, and eat it too. ~ SK</font><hr>SniperKitty and whoelse in this thread arguing that this change should be left out, you still haven't answered the one basic question which actualy is the core of this. Why should your perception of how the game should be played, affect the way I play it - negatively, when this does absolutely nothing, nada, squilch, zip to how you play the game? This is very much NOT the same as the other negative sideeffects you mention. Let me give you an example ...My best slow spell is called Mourning Soul. It slows the mob with +35%, but it roots me. Why does it root me - because having an extra advantage in battle like that should have it's price. I need to think before I use this spell. Not only does it generate extreme amounts of aggro, but it pretty much ensures my death if the main-tank goes down, yet - this spell can actualy make sure that doesn't happen. My bear shape has nothing but appearnce added to it. It doesn't remove anything from my ability list, and it doesn't add anything by itself, there's absolutely no balance issue involved with it. Period.<div></div><hr><font color="#ffff00">It's not my perception of how the game should be played, it's logic and common sense.  These spells are <font color="#ff0000">SHAPECHANGE <font color="#ffff00">spells.  They are not illusions.  Warden of the Forest, Baleful Countenance, Peerless Predator.  They're all <font color="#ff0000">SHAPECHANGE</font> spells.  Not illusions.  The benefits of the spell comes from the <font color="#ff0000">SHAPECHANGE</font>.  To get those benefits, you should be forced to be in that shape and not be allowed to convieniently dismiss it with a / command.Look at your Mourning Soul spell.  It has a drawback.  Yet you continue to use it because you want the benefit.  Bear form, et al, should be the same way.  Either deal with the drawbacks of the <font color="#ff0000">SHAPECHANGE</font>, or you don't get the benefits.  It's that frakkin' simple and you thickheaded dimwits can't seem to understand that.  The only thing this change does, is allow the whiners to crusade for more changes to the game and get their way.If SOE is going to remove the drawbacks of some spells, they shuold remove the drawbacks of all other spells just to be fair.</font></font></font></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Strade]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaelorn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LobaLobaLoba wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sniper, you have my agreement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They aren't illusion spells at all once they make the illusion optional; just lame buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Unless there's some sort of performance issue associated with illusions, I don't see why the illusion toggle is necessary either.</U></STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is the single most important reason that this sort of command was <STRONG>necessary</STRONG>.  On my old machine, I could play EQ2 just fine with graphics turned down, but as soon as a Conjuror turned themselves into a flaming elemental, my framerate would literally crawl under a rock and die every time they appeared on my screen.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok this is simple, go into option and put the particle effect down. Lag fixed. Do I ask a /remove_water command if reflexion make my machine lag? No. I go into option and see what can be tweek to fix it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaelorn wrote:<BR>Now that you mention the big bear butt, that was a pain too, especially in places like Stormhold and Crypt of Betrayal where space can get pretty tight.  When I was in COB working on AQ4 with my Ranger, I was often grouped with a lot of priests... so we had a lion, a wolf, and a bear in the group.  I cannot tell you how annoying it is to be fighting mobs and have a chest drop, and you want to disarm the trap on the box, but you can't even see the *$%#&! thing let alone click on it because of all the fluffy animals standing around where the mob died.  :smileytongue: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As I said in my previous post, the bear butt is not an issue at all! When i go in a Dungeon whit my lovly shammy Jazzera, I turn myself into a hawk (lvl 20 fun spell of shaman) then cast the bear buff on me. Voila. Big butt fixed. ITs small, effective and nobody complain about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People are arguing here witout taking in consideration that there is actually in game solution to the problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do not need this comand. It will break imersion in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Debillus]

<span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><font color="#ffff00">It's not my perception of how the game should be played, it's logic and common sense. <font color="#ffffff">Now how's that for arrogance and selfrighteouness ? .. In my interpretation of common sense I'm always right and you're always wrong. Now that's not my opinion. That's just fact ! -- eh </font></font><font color="#ffffff"><span><span>?</span></span></font> <font color="#ffff00"> These spells are <font color="#ff0000">SHAPECHANGE <font color="#ffff00">spells.  They are not illusions.  Warden of the Forest, Baleful Countenance, Peerless Predator.  They're all <font color="#ff0000">SHAPECHANGE</font> spells.  Not illusions.  The benefits of the spell comes from the <font color="#ff0000">SHAPECHANGE</font>.  To get those benefits, you should be forced to be in that shape and not be allowed to convieniently dismiss it with a / command.Look at your Mourning Soul spell.  It has a drawback.  Yet you continue to use it because you want the benefit.  Bear form, et al, should be the same way.  Either deal with the drawbacks of the <font color="#ff0000">SHAPECHANGE</font>, or you don't get the benefits.  It's that frakkin' simple and you thickheaded dimwits can't seem to understand that.  The only thing this change does, is allow the whiners to crusade for more changes to the game and get their way. </font></font></font><font color="#ffffff"><span><span>You still don't get it do you? let's break it up into three simple questions, and mind you I'm talking about the shape of the bear/lion/wolf here - not the buff. 1) How does me being in animalshape disadvantage me in the game, beside being annoying to my surroundings and being annoyed by it myself? 2) How does me being in </span></span></font><span><span><font color="#ffffff"><span><span>animal</span></span></font></span></span><font color="#ffffff"><span><span>shape advantage you in the game, beside your justified feeling of "the true vision" being followed? 3) How does me NOT being in </span></span></font><span><span><font color="#ffffff"><span><span>animal</span></span></font></span></span><font color="#ffffff"><span><span>shape disadvantage you in the game. </span></span></font><font color="#ffffff"> </font><font color="#ffffff">My Mourning Soul clearly disadvantages me by rooting me. I may die from this, groupmembers may get killed also, due to something I did - or they may survive the encounter because of it.  Advantage and Disadvantage packed together. The way it's supposed to be.</font><font color="#ffffff"> </font><font color="#ffffff"> </font><font color="#ffffff">My Ursine Elder buff (the bearspell) clearly advantages me by adding to my power pool and my regenrate. This benefits me and my group. It also adds the ILLUSION of a bear to my character which is highly annoying to most people, but in no way, shape or form gamealtering. Nobdoy dies because I cant control my bear and I actualy crush them under my feet. The maul attack doesn't AE and hit my groupmembers at random, I can speak, wear my equipment, emote, talk to npc's, get killed by fellow bears etc. which is 100% the way things work when I'm not wearing the bear illusion. This is why this is nowhere near a shapechange but very much so only an illusion. </font><font color="#ffffff"> </font><font color="#ffffff"> </font><font color="#ffffff">If you're gonna put yourself on a piedestal and claim to be the king of pure logic and common sense while dictating how others should play or enjoy this game, then you need to be consistant and advocate that all these logical effects should also be implemented.</font> <font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ffff00"></font></font></font></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>/B</span><div></div>

[Bumba]

<P>I got an advice today. Dont read the forums, there are only morons there... And after reading OP I know there is atleast one lol.</P> <P>Yeah, when I created my char there where several warnings I would look the same at lvl 50 as at lvl 20. I also got warnings about I never should buy a mount because I cant use it. I also got warnings that people would curse me for casting illusions on them. I also got warnings about I would get cussed at for allways being big and making it hard for everyone to see anything in dungeons.</P> <P>Yeah, I knew all theese things when I started my char.... NOT!<BR>This is the single best change SoE have done so far and for you to cry about what others want is just silly. It dont effect you in any way, not even if you are a shammy/druid.<BR>Now pls say "If SoE goes through with this I quit the game", would make me cheer. Dont need crybabies like you here anyways, your more suited for wow.</P> <P>Have a good day sucker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[SniperKitty]

Hey B, it's not an illusion.  Go read your spell.  Down at the bottom, in with the text on what the spell does... it specifically states: Shapechanges caster.  Fact: The spells are NOT ILLUSIONS.  The benefits of the spell are directly tied in to the shape and the disadvantages of being in said shape.  Logic would dictate, that if you want the benefit of being shapechanged, you should be forced to be in that shape. Odo on DS9 was a shapeshifter.  If he wanted to spy on Quark by turning into a glass on the table, he had to be a glass.  He couldn't just say, "Don't mind me Quark, I'm really a glass right now, I just don't feel like looking like a glass."  It's the same thing here.  If you want the benefits of being a bear, you should be forced to be a bear.  It's how shapechanging works. <div></div>

[Bumba]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>Hey B, it's not an illusion.  Go read your spell.  Down at the bottom, in with the text on what the spell does... it specifically states: Shapechanges caster.  Fact: The spells are NOT ILLUSIONS.  The benefits of the spell are directly tied in to the shape and the disadvantages of being in said shape.  Logic would dictate, that if you want the benefit of being shapechanged, you should be forced to be in that shape.<BR><BR>Odo on DS9 was a shapeshifter.  If he wanted to spy on Quark by turning into a glass on the table, he had to be a glass.  He couldn't just say, "Don't mind me Quark, I'm really a glass right now, I just don't feel like looking like a glass."  It's the same thing here.  If you want the benefits of being a bear, you should be forced to be a bear.  It's how shapechanging works.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>you little troll =)</DIV> <DIV>I actually dont understand people that actuallly want to make the game a lesser experience for others.. But I guess you are into S and M aswell..</DIV> <DIV>Have a good day sucker =)</DIV>

[JWDaz]

<P>Brr.  Whoops.  It showed up here, and at the end.  Eraaaased.</P> <P>Message Edited by JWDazed on <SPAN class=date_text>04-16-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:25 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by JWDazed on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:25 AM</span>

[Piz]

you're one *$%#&!ing idiot <font size="4">there are no gameplay drawbacks like spells that root you and saying they are related is a logical *$%#&!ing fallacy.  it's a clientside effect and why the *$%#&! do you care, it has <font size="7">zero impact</font></font> <div></div>

[Bumba]

Also, what bothers me is OP and people agreeing with him cant grasp the fact that this is one of the most /feedbacked issues in the game thus SoE fixes it. I have been waiting for this fix for ages.<BR>And its fun to see all lvl 20-30 agreeing and thinking that they have played this game for so many hours and know what they are talking about.<BR>Try playing with the same frigging lionform fo 60 days. No matter what armor you get you look the same. At lvl 50 with raidfarmed gear you look exactly the same as a lvl 20 with isle of refuge gear.. Yeah real cool and real fun!! Also now with this change I actually gain something by getting guild to 30. Before change I had no reason whatsoever to get a mount because it ment losing my best (by far) buff.. Finally I have a goal again.

[Fennir]

<span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:Hey B, it's not an illusion.  Go read your spell.  Down at the bottom, in with the text on what the spell does... <b>it specifically states: Shapechanges caster.  Fact: The spells are NOT ILLUSIONS.</b>  The benefits of the spell are directly tied in to the shape and the disadvantages of being in said shape.  Logic would dictate, that if you want the benefit of being shapechanged, you should be forced to be in that shape.<hr></blockquote> I figured I would just up and demolish the rest of your stupid, petty argument right here and now. Enjoy: <img src="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/626/067.jpg"></span><div></div>

[SniperKitty]

It's not client side.  It's gamewide.  If you turn off illusions on your character, no one will see any illusion cast on you.  It's obvious there are drawbacks to being in a shapechanged form, or people would never have wanted to get rid of it.  Problem is, spells like Warden of the Forest, et al, are shapechanging spells.  Not illusions.  The benefits of the buff were tied in to the shape your character changed in to.  <div align="center"><font size="7">If you want the benefit of being <font color="#ffff00">shapechanged</font>, you should be forced to be in that <font color="#ffff00">shape</font>. </font> <div align="left"><font size="2"> Otherwise, it's breaking the consistency of the game and all detrimental side effects of beneficial buffs (like Hold the Line, Mourning Soul, Stealth arts, Knight's Stance, et al), should also be removed to be fair to the rest of the classes.  It's not fair for one type of buff to have the disadvantages removed, but not for the rest of the buffs.  Especially when the benefits of the buff are directly tied to the disadvantage. Shapechange disadvantages: 1. You look like the creature/item you're changing into. 2. Said creature/item may be big and obstruct the view of your group. 3. Targeting/position becomes an issue you need to be aware of. Those are the disadvantages that you should be forced to deal with if you want the benefits of being shapechanged. </font></div> </div> <div></div>

[JWDaz]

<DIV> <P>Okay, let's put out a few facts really quickly.  <BR><BR>1)  The code is apparently already done and on test, so you may view it as a waste of the Dev's resources, but if it is, then we're wasting even MORE if we go find it, and take it out.  Maybe not a lot more resources, but it still is a waste of even more.<BR><BR>2)  There are massive issues with the graphics involved in the Salve Line's lion change.  Yes it provides a heal and a buff, but when you cast it, it also changes the player into a Lion.  Normally, I wouldn't care, and yes tanks do care, but the larger issue (for me) is that when they shapechange into a Lion, we stand usually a 50% chance of buggering their toon for my vision.  That means I usually see them halfway under the world, I see just a tail sometimes, I see many different weird combinations.  Even worse, if it wears off with them in this form, sometimes it can make them even harder to see, with their entire body stuck under the world.<BR><BR>3)  The summoner change into that firey elemental causes me to spaz whenever I'm near them, and I don't WANT to turn my graphics down, because I want to see everything!  Runes are cool looking. =P<BR><BR>4)  The illusion spells can simply be overcome by casting another illusion first (but these illusion wear off when you zone still) and then casting your buff spell.<BR><BR>5)  Hold the Line and other spells in that manner are designed to give a negative effect to counter the massive positive of the spell.  Just like my Sylvan Touch is a nice heal, but it has a negative effect of a 900 second timer.  Obviously (by SoE's admission by putting in this command) the shapechange part of the spell is NOT designed to be a negative effect.  The shapechange, apparently, was designed as a fluff bonus for a class to seperate them.  But it didn't have the desired effect, obviously, and when combined with the bugs, as well as the annoyances of the vision changes, they decided to place in this command.<BR><BR> - Now, 2, 3, and 4 are problems that need to be fixed.  Fixing the graphic representations in these are very complicated obviously.  This command they're giving saves time, and resources, since they can put the actual graphic problems on the back burner, while they fix everything else!  Does that make some sense to you?  This is in essence like a temp fix.  Eventually hopefully they'll probably modify the lion and bear models to give some variety, fix the salve changes, and then most people will WANT to see this stuff.  I know I'm personally probably not going to use the hide_illusion command unless a character's toon disappears because of my Salve heal, but many characters may, and I'd think the most likely characters to use this (besides Shamans who say their Bear buff is too big) will probably be tanks grouped with Furies who don't WANT to become lions, but DO want to be healed.  You know what's funny?  My lion is taller than some Gnomes.  Christ my badger can sit on chests and you can't see em.  Some of these shapechanges/illusions are just TOO big to be useable currently and need to be changed to allow variety anyways.<BR><BR>As to #1, fixing an entire set of classes or even a single class, will obviously take longer than a quick patch, to a bug... Yes this bug isn't as important because the time spent could have been used to fix your broken class (your words, not mine, I don't know much about summoners and their pet problems, my class has enough problems to deal with) but how can you assume these people have unlimited time?  They want to fix as many problems as they can, and an entire class is going to take a dedicated effort of a few people I'm assuming.  It's not just punching in a few numbers, they have to balance everything against other classes, speak to designers, etc.  One programmer by himself probably could've done this.  Any rational player would stop and realize the amount of work required to fix an entire broken class would probably outweigh the amount of work required to tweak in a new command that just resets your view. <BR><BR>Stupidity is like nuclear waste.  It can be used for good or evil.  <BR>And you don't want to get any on you.</P></DIV>

[Tami]

<DIV>The fustration is not that we dont like this fix (at least most, I can tell you I hated being turned into a lion when healed or dealing with big bear arses in dungeons), its that there are far more important items for SOE to fix that are game breaking .. Ward stacking (damage pass through) and Ward Bleed come to mind (pretty sad that Wards can, in some cases, actually cause more damage to your character then without).  There are hosts of other broken spells, and more thought needs to go into the combat changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, this is not a client side change ... other players dont see you in that illusion, per statement, thus must be server side.  But its done, and best we can ask right now is that SOE rethink its prioritization and move foward.  Lets not turn this into a nasty flame war as there are FAR more important issues going on in last few weeks and upcomming that need our focus.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Tamian on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[Fennir]

Like I already mentioned, the simple fact that DumbKitty has probably spent way more time whining about this change than a developer did fixing it speaks volumes about his intelligence and grasp of time management. <div></div>

[Fennir]

Furthermore, if you think a developer spending 5-10 minutes adding a feature to appease, and I quote "the most feedbacked/bugged/requested change in the game" shows a lack of priority, you're as stupid as DumbKitty. <div></div>

[-AtPlay-]

<span><blockquote><hr>Stradeus wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Vaelorn wrote:Now that you mention the big bear butt, that was a pain too, especially in places like Stormhold and Crypt of Betrayal where space can get pretty tight.  When I was in COB working on AQ4 with my Ranger, I was often grouped with a lot of priests... so we had a lion, a wolf, and a bear in the group.  I cannot tell you how annoying it is to be fighting mobs and have a chest drop, and you want to disarm the trap on the box, but you can't even see the *$%#&! thing let alone click on it because of all the fluffy animals standing around where the mob died.  :smileytongue: <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>As I said in my previous post, the bear butt is not an issue at all! When i go in a Dungeon whit my lovly shammy Jazzera, I turn myself into a hawk (lvl 20 fun spell of shaman) then cast the bear buff on me. Voila. Big butt fixed. ITs small, effective and nobody complain about it.</div> <div> </div> <div>People are arguing here witout taking in consideration that there is actually in game solution to the problem.</div> <div> </div> <div>We do not need this comand. It will break imersion in the game.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>But you see...you are a hypocrite.  The OP, and others that are not supporting this change, are stating that you get the benefits of the buff FROM THE SHAPECHANGE!  By turning into a hawk, you shouldnt be able to get the nifty bear buffs, because you arent a bear a the time.  Talk about breaking immersion...who heard of a hawk that could act like a bear?</span><div></div>

[-AtPlay-]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tamian wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>The fustration is not that we dont like this fix (at least most, I can tell you I hated being turned into a lion when healed or dealing with big bear arses in dungeons), its that there are far more important items for SOE to fix that are game breaking .. Ward stacking (damage pass through) and Ward Bleed come to mind (pretty sad that Wards can, in some cases, actually cause more damage to your character then without).  There are hosts of other broken spells, and more thought needs to go into the combat changes.</div> <div> </div> <div>BTW, this is not a client side change ... other players dont see you in that illusion, per statement, thus must be server side.  But its done, and best we can ask right now is that SOE rethink its prioritization and move foward.  Lets not turn this into a nasty flame war as there are FAR more important issues going on in last few weeks and upcomming that need our focus.</div> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><hr></blockquote>Ive seen devs, time and time again, make a post every year or so stating how the programming side works.  Basically, everything is compartmentalized so that someone working on female woodelf butts doesnt take any resources away from someone working on the balancing of the priest classes.  Hiding an illusion is probably one of the easiest things they can do, and probably took them all of 10 minutes to work on...and I highly doubt it took one lick of resources away from priest balancing.  The devs like to do this stuff, because they can knock out a lot of superficial changes (that dont take away from the big projects) to please their players with very little effort.</span><div></div>

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -AtPlay- wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tamian wrote:<BR> <DIV>The fustration is not that we dont like this fix (at least most, I can tell you I hated being turned into a lion when healed or dealing with big bear arses in dungeons), its that there are far more important items for SOE to fix that are game breaking .. Ward stacking (damage pass through) and Ward Bleed come to mind (pretty sad that Wards can, in some cases, actually cause more damage to your character then without).  There are hosts of other broken spells, and more thought needs to go into the combat changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, this is not a client side change ... other players dont see you in that illusion, per statement, thus must be server side.  But its done, and best we can ask right now is that SOE rethink its prioritization and move foward.  Lets not turn this into a nasty flame war as there are FAR more important issues going on in last few weeks and upcomming that need our focus.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ive seen devs, time and time again, make a post every year or so stating how the programming side works.  Basically, everything is compartmentalized so that someone working on female woodelf butts doesnt take any resources away from someone working on the balancing of the priest classes.  Hiding an illusion is probably one of the easiest things they can do, and probably took them all of 10 minutes to work on...and I highly doubt it took one lick of resources away from priest balancing.  The devs like to do this stuff, because they can knock out a lot of superficial changes (that dont take away from the big projects) to please their players with very little effort.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/sigh and yes while that holds true in some areas .. i.e. design side .. the programatic side is done by far few groups (we dont know but can assume client and server side .. how db is fit in /shrug)  and thus will be resourced to do this.  They dont have 'coders' just for command line parsing, then coders for visual control, and coders for client side packet processing, and coders server side packet processing, and .. you see what am saying?</P> <P>Ill give you a better example (this may or may not be exact .. no one knows .. but good to show).  There is not code for each specific spell, but one piece of code that works for all .. therefor the only interaction with 'spells or abilities' by a programmer is via this code (some client side .. some server side).  The 'production support' (name as wish) side would be the ones that acutally would go into the db and modify the different flags (dot, dd, proc, etc) and other data points (amount healed, per tic rate, final damage/heal, etc) to that spell.  That give you a better idea?</P> <p>Message Edited by Tamian on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:07 AM</span>

[Piz]

<div></div><font size="7">says who?  the dev's already said you are a. wrong and b. an idiot. <font size="2">also, the conjuror fire illusion completly destroys framerates as well.</font> </font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Pizer on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:13 AM</span>

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>-AtPlay- wrote:<span><blockquote>As I said in my previous post, the bear butt is not an issue at all! When i go in a Dungeon whit my lovly shammy Jazzera, I turn myself into a hawk (lvl 20 fun spell of shaman) then cast the bear buff on me. Voila. Big butt fixed. ITs small, effective and nobody complain about it. <div> </div> <div>People are arguing here witout taking in consideration that there is actually in game solution to the problem.</div> <div> </div> <div>We do not need this comand. It will break imersion in the game.</div> <hr></blockquote>But you see...you are a hypocrite.  The OP, and others that are not supporting this change, are stating that you get the benefits of the buff FROM THE SHAPECHANGE!  By turning into a hawk, you shouldnt be able to get the nifty bear buffs, because you arent a bear a the time.  Talk about breaking immersion...who heard of a hawk that could act like a bear?</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>They're fluff spells.  There's no benefits, other than size, to the fluff spells.  They are illusions.  Not shapechanges.  The illusion hides the shape of the bear by fooling the minds of those around them.  The person is still a bear, wolf, or whatever beneath the illusion.  There should be a disbelieve illusion skill in the game that lets you attempt to see through illusions.  This could even be used against mobs that could then be given illusions to make the encounters even more challenging. Shapechange = Body changing shape. Illusion = Changes how others perceive you. Illusions used to be worthwhile in EQ1.  They were good for changing faction temporarily.  They're junk fluff spells now.</span><div></div>

[-AtPlay-]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tamian wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> -AtPlay- wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Tamian wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div>The fustration is not that we dont like this fix (at least most, I can tell you I hated being turned into a lion when healed or dealing with big bear arses in dungeons), its that there are far more important items for SOE to fix that are game breaking .. Ward stacking (damage pass through) and Ward Bleed come to mind (pretty sad that Wards can, in some cases, actually cause more damage to your character then without).  There are hosts of other broken spells, and more thought needs to go into the combat changes.</div> <div> </div> <div>BTW, this is not a client side change ... other players dont see you in that illusion, per statement, thus must be server side.  But its done, and best we can ask right now is that SOE rethink its prioritization and move foward.  Lets not turn this into a nasty flame war as there are FAR more important issues going on in last few weeks and upcomming that need our focus.</div> <p><span class="time_text"></span></p> <hr> </blockquote>Ive seen devs, time and time again, make a post every year or so stating how the programming side works.  Basically, everything is compartmentalized so that someone working on female woodelf butts doesnt take any resources away from someone working on the balancing of the priest classes.  Hiding an illusion is probably one of the easiest things they can do, and probably took them all of 10 minutes to work on...and I highly doubt it took one lick of resources away from priest balancing.  The devs like to do this stuff, because they can knock out a lot of superficial changes (that dont take away from the big projects) to please their players with very little effort.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>/sigh and yes while that holds true in some areas .. i.e. design side .. the programatic side is done by far few groups (we dont know but can assume client and server side .. how db is fit in /shrug)  and thus will be resourced to do this.  They dont have 'coders' just for command line parsing, then coders for visual control, and coders for client side packet processing, and coders server side packet processing, and .. you see what am saying?</p> <p>Ill give you a better example (this may or may not be exact .. no one knows .. but good to show).  There is not code for each specific spell, but one piece of code that works for all .. therefor the only interaction with 'spells or abilities' by a programmer is via this code (some client side .. some server side).  The 'production support' (name as wish) side would be the ones that acutally would go into the db and modify the different flags (dot, dd, proc, etc) and other data points (amount healed, per tic rate, final damage/heal, etc) to that spell.  That give you a better idea?</p> <div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote>But how long could they have possibly spent on hiding an illusion?  Do you really think that at the last meeting someone said, "Well, I almost had the whole game completely balanced, including making every tank class tank about the same, and every priest class healing the same including wards...but I ran outa time because I had to work on hiding illusions." And Id prefer if you could give me more firsthand knowledge of the inner workings of the EQ2 development team if you are going to contradict what we have been told.  I dont always follow blindly what Ive been told, but this is what the dev team has told us, and I see no reason to not believe them. I may not agree with the original poster, but at least I can understand the argument, and I can respect his position.  What I dont get is how people can be upset because the devs addressed a problem that a lot of people asked for.</span><div></div>

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -AtPlay- wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tamian wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -AtPlay- wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tamian wrote:<BR> <DIV>The fustration is not that we dont like this fix (at least most, I can tell you I hated being turned into a lion when healed or dealing with big bear arses in dungeons), its that there are far more important items for SOE to fix that are game breaking .. Ward stacking (damage pass through) and Ward Bleed come to mind (pretty sad that Wards can, in some cases, actually cause more damage to your character then without).  There are hosts of other broken spells, and more thought needs to go into the combat changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW, this is not a client side change ... other players dont see you in that illusion, per statement, thus must be server side.  But its done, and best we can ask right now is that SOE rethink its prioritization and move foward.  Lets not turn this into a nasty flame war as there are FAR more important issues going on in last few weeks and upcomming that need our focus.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ive seen devs, time and time again, make a post every year or so stating how the programming side works.  Basically, everything is compartmentalized so that someone working on female woodelf butts doesnt take any resources away from someone working on the balancing of the priest classes.  Hiding an illusion is probably one of the easiest things they can do, and probably took them all of 10 minutes to work on...and I highly doubt it took one lick of resources away from priest balancing.  The devs like to do this stuff, because they can knock out a lot of superficial changes (that dont take away from the big projects) to please their players with very little effort.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/sigh and yes while that holds true in some areas .. i.e. design side .. the programatic side is done by far few groups (we dont know but can assume client and server side .. how db is fit in /shrug)  and thus will be resourced to do this.  They dont have 'coders' just for command line parsing, then coders for visual control, and coders for client side packet processing, and coders server side packet processing, and .. you see what am saying?</P> <P>Ill give you a better example (this may or may not be exact .. no one knows .. but good to show).  There is not code for each specific spell, but one piece of code that works for all .. therefor the only interaction with 'spells or abilities' by a programmer is via this code (some client side .. some server side).  The 'production support' (name as wish) side would be the ones that acutally would go into the db and modify the different flags (dot, dd, proc, etc) and other data points (amount healed, per tic rate, final damage/heal, etc) to that spell.  That give you a better idea?</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>But how long could they have possibly spent on hiding an illusion?  Do you really think that at the last meeting someone said, "Well, I almost had the whole game completely balanced, including making every tank class tank about the same, and every priest class healing the same including wards...but I ran outa time because I had to work on hiding illusions."<BR><BR>And Id prefer if you could give me more firsthand knowledge of the inner workings of the EQ2 development team if you are going to contradict what we have been told.  I dont always follow blindly what Ive been told, but this is what the dev team has told us, and I see no reason to not believe them.<BR><BR>I may not agree with the original poster, but at least I can understand the argument, and I can respect his position.  What I dont get is how people can be upset because the devs addressed a problem that a lot of people asked for.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It comes down to perception AtPlay .. regardless of being right or wrong.  There is a fundamental crediblity issue with SOE right now and its focus (prioritization) needs to be on those specific items that impact us greatly.  Are 'illusions' more important then say 'underwater breathing' stacking issues?  Ward Bleeding? Etc .. .now I am not saying that the 'combat revamp' comes under that category, as we all belive is a very large effort.  Simple, focused, prioritized (again perceived) effort on items that impact us and shows rectification of common issues is what I belive most would rather SOE put their time in.</P> <P>My entire focus of that last post is not to say there are not more segments to their development group but to show a change like this does not just impact a 'client side' display (yet, some still belive there are these masses of programmers just sitting there for one simplistic part of the code).  Alot of us are upset with what has occured over the last few weeks and what we see being tested .. we have a right to be .. right or wrong in all the things the OP was asking, the one core root of it (IMO) was perceived prioritization of effort.</P> <DIV>Added: And before someone comes back and gives me *$%#&! about the 'underwater' part, its just an example .. there are many small things in the game that impact gameplay that are 'broken' and should be more the focus of their effort then items like this.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tamian on <span class=date_text>04-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 AM</span>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>SniperKitty wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>They're fluff spells.  There's no benefits, other than size, to the fluff spells.  They are illusions.  Not shapechanges.  The illusion hides the shape of the bear by fooling the minds of those around them.  The person is still a bear, wolf, or whatever beneath the illusion.  There should be a disbelieve illusion skill in the game that lets you attempt to see through illusions.  This could even be used against mobs that could then be given illusions to make the encounters even more challenging.<BR><BR>Shapechange = Body changing shape.<BR>Illusion = Changes how others perceive you.<BR><BR>Illusions used to be worthwhile in EQ1.  They were good for changing faction temporarily.  They're junk fluff spells now.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, their not illusions.  Not in the case of my "fluff" spells, which are all form changes.  Here's the text of these spells, verbatim:</P> <P>Nature's Irate Form:  "Changes the form of the Fury"</P> <P>Call of the Fae: "Changes the form of the Fury"</P> <P>Curse of the Un-natural: "Changes the target into a hideous creature"<BR></P> <P>I believe the Warden and mystic archetype spells are worded the same.  No illusions here.</P>

[Piz]

<div></div><img src="http://img20.echo.cx/img20/1665/water4fl.gif"> <div></div>

[aerofr]

<DIV> <DIV>sniper, did you completely miss the description of the petrified eye? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in the text, it speaks of maintaining an ILLUSION</DIV> <DIV>at the bottom, it says it SHAPECHANGES</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>how's that for consistancy?  (and who plays a fantasy game expecting complete consistancy anyway?  especially one that has always been touted as a world in motion?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sorry i forgot to include star trek references.  i realize that invalidates most of my arguements. (hehe, kidding, i'm as much of a star trek nerd as you are i'm sure)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so.....look at the eye decription again please.  there is clearly a very fuzzy boundary between illusions and shapechanging.  (and i can't really think of any real world frame of reference, especially for the shapechanging part, so please inform me what City on the Hill of pristine logic you are comparing the everquest world to)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you want this game to be something that it's not becomming, play another game.   please.</DIV></DIV>

[aerofr]

<DIV>not to mention that water elemental spell discription.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>looks like you're the inconsistant one sniper</DIV>

[Merkad]

As much as I don't want to put in a word on SniperKittys' side, because that person is an *$%#&!, I think most of you are missing the point they are arguing, that being illusions with benefit, right now, petrified eyes and water elems, are fluff spells, there is no practical benefit, except perhaps height, which is debateable. Things like Bear/Lion give significant bonuses, as well as attaching the *illusion*, SniperKitty is saying those bonuses are a result of the metamorphisis into said forms, which I agree with. That being said, I hate illusions, especially people forcing them onto me (or being made to grovel to the inq/temp). Clearly, most people who care enough to bother expressing themselves do as well. It may not be a priority issue, but making their customers happy with such a seemingly easy fix is well worth the time invested. Argue as much as you like, throw tantrums, call people names if you want, it will not change anything, the majoirty and SOE both want this. Merkades, 50th Ranger. As for consitency, SOE is not very well known for that, they change major things quite often, especially seeing as how EQ2 was definitely not ready for release when it was. <div></div>

[Debillus]

<span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:Hey B, it's not an illusion.  Go read your spell.  Down at the bottom, in with the text on what the spell does... it specifically states: Shapechanges caster.  Fact: The spells are NOT ILLUSIONS.  The benefits of the spell are directly tied in to the shape and the disadvantages of being in said shape.  Logic would dictate, that if you want the benefit of being shapechanged, you should be forced to be in that shape. Odo on DS9 was a shapeshifter.  If he wanted to spy on Quark by turning into a glass on the table, he had to be a glass.  He couldn't just say, "Don't mind me Quark, I'm really a glass right now, I just don't feel like looking like a glass."  It's the same thing here.  If you want the benefits of being a bear, you should be forced to be a bear.  It's how shapechanging works. <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>SniperKitty .. You don't have an argument, and you are clearly not here to discuss anything concering the /hide_illusion command. Your initial post, and following responses (or lack of same)<b> only proves that you are here to troll</b>. Prove me wrong by actualy answering and responding to my post, instead of just repeating yourself again and again and again and again and again. /B <div></div>

[Piz]

the thing is, he assumes that the shapeshift was meant to be a. detrimental and b. permenant. it's nothing like root on a tank or anything else. <div></div>

[Piz]

actally i think he thinks this is going to buff some healers or something, he said he has a warden, maybe he thinks hes getting *$%#&!ed? i dunno what classes actally use illusions. <div></div>

[SniperKitty]

Actually, regardless of any argument I've already posted against this change, I've figured out the number one reason this command should not be allowed to go Live. It will allow group leaders that dislike the shapechange buffs, to force shapechanged players in their groups to use the /hide_illusion command or be kicked out of the group. <div></div>

[Piz]

You're an idiot. <div></div>

[Fennir]

<span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:It will allow group leaders that dislike the shapechange buffs, to force shapechanged players in their groups to use the /hide_illusion command or be kicked out of the group. <div></div><hr></blockquote>What do group leaders do about you, then? Is there going to be a /hide_retard command, and if so, will you disappear?</span><div></div>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div>Laugh, call me names, whatever.  You're too small minded and ignorant to understand the repercussions this command will have over long term gameplay and perception of the devs.  People will have learned from this change, that if they whine and cry enough, something will get changed.  How will you like it when months down the road, your favorite class gets nerfed because of bunch of people whined and cried enough to get it changed? I'll list the reasons once again why this buff is ridiculous and should not be put into the game: 1. The benefits of a shapechange spell are directly tied to the shape you change into.  No shapechange, no benefits.  That's the way it should be. 2. It's not fair to the rest of the classes that have buffs with negative drawbacks to their buffs.  Why don't they get a command to remove those drawbacks?  After all, it's only fair and wouldn't effect your gameplay would it? =p 3. It gives group leaders a way to cause problems for people that do like the wolf form or bear form or whatever. Number three will happen.  I guarentee it.  And the devs are to blame for caving in to the lameass crybabies that moaned and whined about the shapechange buffs. <div></div><p>Message Edited by SniperKitty on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:47 AM</span>

[Miral]

<STRIKE>not sure what you mean by #3</STRIKE> <DIV>I have been... enlightened, disregard</DIV><p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:21 AM</span>

[Piz]

You incorrectly assume that a shape-shift is designed to be a negative, drawback of a spell. The slipperly slope does not apply.  If it was removing root, or some kind of damage to the user, it might apply, but it does not. <div></div>

[Fennir]

The original poster has given us every indication that she has no intention of paying any attention to anything in this thread she doesn't agree with.  She's done nothing but repeat the same pathetically stupid points, over and over again, no matter how many times they're proven to be completely worthless. I think the real stupidity in this thread lies with us.  We continue to post as if we actually expect this lamebrain to get a clue.  I for one am done. Oh and DumbKitty, people don't boot you from their groups because of your ugly form, they boot you because you're probably as stupid in-game as you are here. <div></div>

[Debillus]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:Laugh, call me names, whatever.  You're too small minded and ignorant to understand the repercussions this command will have over long term gameplay and perception of the devs.  People will have learned from this change, that if they whine and cry enough, something will get changed.  How will you like it when months down the road, your favorite class gets nerfed because of bunch of people whined and cried enough to get it changed?<span class="time_text"></span> <hr></blockquote> And what will people have learned from your thread? .. That whatever their problems in game may be - there will allways be some selfpromoted king of the hill, that knows exactly how you should want to play your game - because that is something you are way to inferior to do yourself. If you express concern over something, then  your are a whining crybaby, but same someone will only advocate "common sense" when doing exactly the same - and 3-4 times worse. Let's not get into anything of a deeper nature, but several kindergarden analogies springs to mind. <span> </span></span><span>Also, readers of this thread will find the true <a href="http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/troller.htm" target="_blank">definition of a troll</a> lived out, as well as several other archetypes from same catalogue. Avoding parts of the conversation that proves your original points wrong is never fun, but instead of just retreating, one can always try to keep the thread going by quoting, and replying selectively and then add another repetition of your original opening-lines. </span> <span><span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:<div></div> I'll list the reasons once again why this buff is ridiculous and should not be put into the game: 1. The benefits of a shapechange spell are directly tied to the shape you change into.  No shapechange, no benefits.  That's the way it should be. 2. It's not fair to the rest of the classes that have buffs with negative drawbacks to their buffs.  Why don't they get a command to remove those drawbacks?  After all, it's only fair and wouldn't effect your gameplay would it? =p 3. It gives group leaders a way to cause problems for people that do like the wolf form or bear form or whatever. Number three will happen.  I guarentee it.  And the devs are to blame for caving in to the lameass crybabies that moaned and whined about the shapechange buffs. <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>Concerning the context of your reply, I could show you the courtesy of replying specifically to what you are writing, but number 1 and 2 has been replied to, by me and others, countless times by now - still you flag them as groundbreaking arguments instead of addressing the criticism you're receiving, and defending your views, on same. Number 3 is new, but then again, claiming to know what the future may bring is always easy, and probably an attractive method of trying to draw the attention away from the facts being discussed. Fact is, that the same "common sense" that you claim to be one of the few "protectors of", dictates that if something is in fact a good idea, people in general will agree. I'll put my bets on the following replies ... <b>Group going into RoV:</b> <i>Groupleader : Hey guys how about we loose the illusions when crawling theese tunnels? Scout in group: Oh yes, please! Coercer : You mean I can actualy see the mobs between the barb guardian and the bigassed mystic? .. cool ! Main tank : coookie. <font color="#cc6600">Mystic in group : A) I don't know guys, I'm kind of roleplaying my character here and I really can't give my group the benefits of a buff without being a big bear, sorry not.</font> <font color="#cccc00">Mystic in group : B) Fine by me, I cant see *$%#&! myself when in illusion down here.</font></i> <b>Bloodtalon group in TS:</b> <i><font color="#ffffff">Warden in group (in lionshape) : You guys mind that I play as a lion here? It kind'a fits to the setting I think, and I have a softspot for roleplaying</font><font color="#cccc00"> </font> <font color="#cccc00">rest of the group : A) Sure, knock yourself out. (as long as we dont have to be)</font> <font color="#cc6600">rest of the group : B) No way you roleplaying idiot.</font> </i><font color="#ccff00"> <font color="#ffffff">... will for 99.9% be </font>these ones<font color="#ffffff">.</font> </font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Beetle on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:19 AM</span>

[Miral]

<P>huh that post kinda proves his 3rd point actually...</P> <P>"no way you roleplaying idiot" wouldn't be a group I'd wanna be in</P>

[Debillus]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Miral wrote:<p>huh that post kinda proves his 3rd point actually...</p> <p>"no way you roleplaying idiot" wouldn't be a group I'd wanna be in</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Yeah I messed up my first post, and corrected it a few minutes later. Obviously not fast enough for you to one star the post and type this, allthough reading my post would have made it pretty clear what my point of view on the matter was. /B</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Beetle on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:26 AM</span>

[aerofr]

<P>wow.  i think sniper has actually admitted defeat by coming up with that 3rd reason.  that's just the silliest thing i've ever heard.  what happened to "i promise i'll still get a group because good healers are always in demand so i'm going to shake my wolf butt in everyone's face?"</P>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div>Admit defeat?  Never.  The shapechange/illusion problem in spell descriptions is an inconsistency on the devs part and a major screw up.  There should be a clear distinction between illusions and shapechanging.  It would also be nice if the devs would include benefits for the different illusions, such as disguising faction. I'll still get groups.  Wolf form isn't as bad as bear form. *shrugs*  We'll see.  Regardless, any dumbarse group leader that wants to boot me cause I'm in wolf form, won't be a person I want to group with anyway.  They'll get put on the ignore list of all of my characters, if they're an Artisan of any kind, I won't buy from them or their guildmates, and I'll make dang sure to keep an eye out for other members of their guild when getting invites.  Idiots like that usualy flock together like mindless vermin anyway.I'm almost 100% positive the devs did not consider point #3 when they created this command.  It will become a problem.<hr><span><i><font color="#cc0000">Groupleader : Hey guys how about we lose the illusions when crawling theese tunnels?</font><font color="#cc0000"></font><font color="#cc0000">Scout in group: Oh yes, please!</font><font color="#cc0000"></font><font color="#cc0000">Coercer : You mean I can actualy see the mobs between the barb guardian and the bigassed mystic? .. cool !</font><font color="#cc0000"></font><font color="#cc0000">Main tank : cookie.</font></i></span><hr><span></span>That is exactly the situation we'll see.  Which is BAD.  How about we force all the ogre guardians or well... anyone that plays an ogre to re-roll as a halfing so we can see over them?  It's the same thing.  Big ogre, big bear.  No difference.  So let's force everyone into playing the smallest race, just so no one has any problems seeing in a tight dungeon.  So much for immersion.  Morons.<div></div>

[prisoner]

<P>To the OP</P> <P>I'm kind of amazed at how much zeal you put into this topic.  If only you used your energy on something worthwhile instead of a simple cosmetic change,  well by golly we'd have class balance by now.  </P> <P>You'll notice that the majority of the people who enjoy this change are the ones who actually have to wear the new form and don't like it.  You may like it,  but the fact remains that most do not.  As been stated before,  its a command that you can choose not to use,  so if you don't want to,  then don't.  Its that simple.  Roleplaying is a choice.</P> <P>I wouldn't boot you from my group for being a wolf.  No no my precious simpleton,  I'd boot you for being you.  </P>

[Bumba]

<DIV>Its fun to see SniperKitty calling people crybabies when it is actually he who cries the most. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3333cc size=5>Also, SoE has there priorities straight. This is one of the most /feedbacked issues in the game.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#3333cc size=5></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>No go back to your trollcave sucker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Debillus]

<span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:<div></div> <font color="#ffff00">Common sense has removed this quote.</font><hr></blockquote></span>Let's stop feeding the troll. /B

[Anlari]

While I in no way wish to be grouped togather with the OP, I do agree with one point of his.  The shapechange spells should not have the ability to hide their visual effects.  I realy hate that they added this feature in.  It's like saying I want my buff that adds defence but takes away offence to no longer hurt my offence because it gets old.  I realy think you should have to wear the shape to get the benefits.  Just personal opinion though.

[Debillus]

<span><blockquote><hr>Anlarius wrote:While I in no way wish to be grouped togather with the OP, I do agree with one point of his.  The shapechange spells should not have the ability to hide their visual effects.  I realy hate that they added this feature in.  It's like saying I want my buff that adds defence but takes away offence to no longer hurt my offence because it gets old.  I realy think you should have to wear the shape to get the benefits.  Just personal opinion though. <div></div><hr></blockquote>If you do not want to be grouped with the OP, then do yourself the favor of actualy reading the thread and the counterarguments posted before you add to the debate. It has been explained, defined, elaborated to the point of near death, what makes these spells very much different from the "rest" of the spells that has a downside to them. /B</span><div></div>

[Trucegore_Vonbloodwor]

Its common sence that thoes are shapshanges and the Buff's are a direct effect of being that creature. I realy dont care what the spells "say" on them, The classes in question, in any lore you will find, fiction ot non, Shapechange into that creature to gain the abilitys of that animal. I will say it again, Its like a warewolf saying " I realy like my added speed, smell, jumping distance and power...but could i not tyrn into the wolf? Its realy annoying". An in anyones mind that is stupid. you canot gain the abilitys of a creature when you do not change into it. peroid. I shall now go start a thread asking that healers not heal, necros not have anything to do with the dead, and illusionists not cast illusions = the same thing. You picked the class, you read the lore, live with it. The change is not game breaking in mechanics, but it is lore breaking. Now, that class has no meaning, no history, no worth in the scope of the lore of the world. <div></div>

[Piz]

ahahahaha "lore" that's a good one <div></div>

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beetle wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anlarius wrote:<BR>While I in no way wish to be grouped togather with the OP, I do agree with one point of his.  The shapechange spells should not have the ability to hide their visual effects.  I realy hate that they added this feature in.  It's like saying I want my buff that adds defence but takes away offence to no longer hurt my offence because it gets old.  I realy think you should have to wear the shape to get the benefits.  Just personal opinion though. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you do not want to be grouped with the OP, then do yourself the favor of actualy reading the thread and the counterarguments posted before you add to the debate. It has been explained, defined, elaborated to the point of near death, what makes these spells very much different from the "rest" of the spells that has a downside to them.<BR><BR>/B<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Did you ever listening to our arguments? It's like saying: We are right you are wrong even if we don't even read the counter arguments.

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bumbazz wrote:<BR> Also, what bothers me is OP and people agreeing with him cant grasp the fact that this is one of the most /feedbacked issues in the game thus SoE fixes it. I have been waiting for this fix for ages.<BR>And its fun to see all lvl 20-30 agreeing and thinking that they have played this game for so many hours and know what they are talking about.<BR>Try playing with the same frigging lionform fo 60 days. No matter what armor you get you look the same. At lvl 50 with raidfarmed gear you look exactly the same as a lvl 20 with isle of refuge gear.. Yeah real cool and real fun!! Also now with this change I actually gain something by getting guild to 30. Before change I had no reason whatsoever to get a mount because it ment losing my best (by far) buff.. Finally I have a goal again.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You make me laugh!!! Its like you dosent get any other form! Go out and if you are sooooo experimented in the game, buy yourself the fun spell that make you other forms and learn to play in 3rd person. </P> <P>Im geting sick of power gamer that think they know it all.</P> <P>Im waiting for another 1 star. lol</P> <DIV>EDIT: Fixe the *$%#&! forms! Shrink them, they are way too big i agree with you all! But the /hide_illusion is the lamest thing i ever seen!!! ITs like a werewolf who got all his power of hybrind form ... but in human form! It dosent ... make  ... any ... SENS! </DIV> <DIV>Add diversity with form. Put the lvl 34 one another color .. ect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT do not put that Live! this is just stupid!! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Stradeus on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:20 PM</span>

[JWDaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trucegore_Vonbloodworth wrote:<BR>Its common sence that thoes are shapshanges and the Buff's are a direct effect of being that creature. I realy dont care what the spells "say" on them, The classes in question, in any lore you will find, fiction ot non, Shapechange into that creature to gain the abilitys of that animal.<BR><BR><BR>I will say it again, Its like a warewolf saying " I realy like my added speed, smell, jumping distance and power...but could i not tyrn into the wolf? Its realy annoying".<BR><BR>An in anyones mind that is stupid.<BR><BR><BR>you canot gain the abilitys of a creature when you do not change into it. peroid.<BR><BR>I shall now go start a thread asking that healers not heal, necros not have anything to do with the dead, and illusionists not cast illusions = the same thing.<BR><BR>You picked the class, you read the lore, live with it.<BR><BR>The change is not game breaking in mechanics, but it is lore breaking. Now, that class has no meaning, no history, no worth in the scope of the lore of the world.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Okay, but you are completely missing one of the main arguments I'm making concerning this.  Currently there are many graphical problems.  Any Fury out there can attest if you cast the Salve line on a character, the initial illusion can in many cases cause people to not be able to view the character correctly, and in some cases cause the character to not be seen at all.  That fire elemental illusion from mages (summoners I think) causes some serious graphical problems as well, that the best solution to do is turn down our graphics settings?  What?  So we miss other cool things?  It may break the Lore, but until they fix the graphics, and maybe minimize a few of these images (that bear is a bit bigger than most in game bears, and my lion is bigger than a gnome... in height...) this is a necessary change.  And they REALLY need to remove the lion form change from the Salve line.  That is one of the LARGEST reasons this change was asked for.  Nobody liked grouping with Furies because nobody wanted to be changed into Lions against their will whenever they were healed... anyways... I think Lore can be sacrificed to make gameplay more acceptable, atleast temporarily, til they fix the graphics on this stuff.

[JWDaz]

<P>I didn't even know I sent this once, let alone twice.</P><p>Message Edited by JWDazed on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:55 PM</span>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trucegore_Vonbloodworth wrote:<BR>Its common sence that thoes are shapshanges and the Buff's are a direct effect of being that creature. I realy dont care what the spells "say" on them, The classes in question, <FONT color=#ffff00>in any lore you will find, <U>fiction ot non</U></FONT>, Shapechange into that creature to gain the abilitys of that animal.<BR><BR><BR>I will say it again, Its like a warewolf saying " I realy like my added speed, smell, jumping distance and power...but could i not tyrn into the wolf? Its realy annoying".<BR><BR>An in anyones mind that is stupid.<BR><BR><BR>you canot gain the abilitys of a creature when you do not change into it. peroid.<BR><BR>I shall now go start a thread asking that healers not heal, necros not have anything to do with the dead, and illusionists not cast illusions = the same thing.<BR><BR>You picked the class, you read the lore, live with it.<BR><BR>The change is not game breaking in mechanics, but it is lore breaking. Now, that class has no meaning, no history, no worth in the scope of the lore of the world.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Please tell me you did not just cite <U>non-fiction</U> lore as a reference for shapechanging fundamentals.</P> <P>As for the rest, if we were playing "Bram Stoker Online" or "Worlds of Bela Lugosi" I'd agree with you 100%.  But this is Everquest 2, where "Crusaders" aren't pushing catholicism.  Where "Berserkers" don't run around in bear skins and bite their shields to drive them into a frenzy.  Where "Furies" aren't female tormentor's of the guilty that sprung from the corpse of Uranus.  And those in tune with nature don't need to get fleas to recieve religious benefit.</P> <P>Every read the MOTD when you log in?  I think says "<FONT color=#ffff00>Welcome to Everquest 2.  Your in our NEW world now!</FONT>"</P> <P>That emphasis on "new" is theirs, not mine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JWDazed wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trucegore_Vonbloodworth wrote:<BR>Its common sence that thoes are shapshanges and the Buff's are a direct effect of being that creature. I realy dont care what the spells "say" on them, The classes in question, in any lore you will find, fiction ot non, Shapechange into that creature to gain the abilitys of that animal.<BR><BR><BR>I will say it again, Its like a warewolf saying " I realy like my added speed, smell, jumping distance and power...but could i not tyrn into the wolf? Its realy annoying".<BR><BR>An in anyones mind that is stupid.<BR><BR><BR>you canot gain the abilitys of a creature when you do not change into it. peroid.<BR><BR>I shall now go start a thread asking that healers not heal, necros not have anything to do with the dead, and illusionists not cast illusions = the same thing.<BR><BR>You picked the class, you read the lore, live with it.<BR><BR>The change is not game breaking in mechanics, but it is lore breaking. Now, that class has no meaning, no history, no worth in the scope of the lore of the world.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Okay, but you are completely missing one of the main arguments I'm making concerning this.  Currently there are many graphical problems.  Any Fury out there can attest if you cast the Salve line on a character, the initial illusion can in many cases cause people to not be able to view the character correctly, and in some cases cause the character to not be seen at all.  That fire elemental illusion from mages (summoners I think) causes some serious graphical problems as well, that the best solution to do is turn down our graphics settings?  What?  So we miss other cool things?  It may break the Lore, but until they fix the graphics, and maybe minimize a few of these images (that bear is a bit bigger than most in game bears, and my lion is bigger than a gnome... in height...) this is a necessary change.  And they REALLY need to remove the lion form change from the Salve line.  That is one of the LARGEST reasons this change was asked for.  Nobody liked grouping with Furies because nobody wanted to be changed into Lions against their will whenever they were healed... anyways... I think Lore can be sacrificed to make gameplay more acceptable, atleast temporarily, til they fix the graphics on this stuff. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree with you completly! They need to fix it!! But not remove it! It would not be that long to fix the small problem we got. The change form on the hale for fury is ridiculous and I understand. Just remove the effect. Fix the camera in lion form. Give us sit animation. Give the lvl 34 predator thing a tiger graphic instead of the same lion. Or a black lioness (panter). The mage illusion dosnt give any benefits so just ask them to remove the illusion if it make you lag.</P> <P>But you all have to understand one thing. For me this is really a gamebreaker. Call me all the name you can imagine, but this is a gamebreaker for me. This is not needed. It make me think of some Simpsons episode when all the village go with some artisanals weapon (paysan fork ... ect) for nothing that important at all. This isnt needed IF dev do the right thing and fixe the *$%#&! stupid form that i love! We need to get fix! </P>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stradeus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JWDazed wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trucegore_Vonbloodworth wrote:<BR>Its common sence that thoes are shapshanges and the Buff's are a direct effect of being that creature. I realy dont care what the spells "say" on them, The classes in question, in any lore you will find, fiction ot non, Shapechange into that creature to gain the abilitys of that animal.<BR><BR><BR>I will say it again, Its like a warewolf saying " I realy like my added speed, smell, jumping distance and power...but could i not tyrn into the wolf? Its realy annoying".<BR><BR>An in anyones mind that is stupid.<BR><BR><BR>you canot gain the abilitys of a creature when you do not change into it. peroid.<BR><BR>I shall now go start a thread asking that healers not heal, necros not have anything to do with the dead, and illusionists not cast illusions = the same thing.<BR><BR>You picked the class, you read the lore, live with it.<BR><BR>The change is not game breaking in mechanics, but it is lore breaking. Now, that class has no meaning, no history, no worth in the scope of the lore of the world.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Okay, but you are completely missing one of the main arguments I'm making concerning this.  Currently there are many graphical problems.  Any Fury out there can attest if you cast the Salve line on a character, the initial illusion can in many cases cause people to not be able to view the character correctly, and in some cases cause the character to not be seen at all.  That fire elemental illusion from mages (summoners I think) causes some serious graphical problems as well, that the best solution to do is turn down our graphics settings?  What?  So we miss other cool things?  It may break the Lore, but until they fix the graphics, and maybe minimize a few of these images (that bear is a bit bigger than most in game bears, and my lion is bigger than a gnome... in height...) this is a necessary change.  And they REALLY need to remove the lion form change from the Salve line.  That is one of the LARGEST reasons this change was asked for.  Nobody liked grouping with Furies because nobody wanted to be changed into Lions against their will whenever they were healed... anyways... I think Lore can be sacrificed to make gameplay more acceptable, atleast temporarily, til they fix the graphics on this stuff. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree with you completly! They need to fix it!! But not remove it! It would not be that long to fix the small problem we got. The change form on the hale for fury is ridiculous and I understand. Just remove the effect. Fix the camera in lion form. Give us sit animation. Give the lvl 34 predator thing a tiger graphic instead of the same lion. Or a black lioness (panter). The mage illusion dosnt give any benefits so just ask them to remove the illusion if it make you lag.</P> <P>But you all have to understand one thing. For me this is really a gamebreaker. Call me all the name you can imagine, but this is a gamebreaker for me. This is not needed. It make me think of some Simpsons episode when all the village go with some artisanals weapon (paysan fork ... ect) for nothing that important at all. This isnt needed IF dev do the right thing and fixe the *$%#&! stupid form that i love! We need to get fix! </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Which brings us back full circle.  The OP's original rant was the use of dev resources with the hide_illusion command.  You don't think all that you just said is an even bigger drain on dev resources?  Hide_illusion probably took 30 minutes to code, if even that.  Fixing animations, camera's, the movement issues, the wall issues, etc. etc. etc. is a lot of man-hours by different sections.</P> <P>For now, with ALL the other broken things... this makes sense.  It's quick and easy, and maybe later they can look into the forms when there's more time (ie. after all the extensive balancing that needs to be done, and the spell scalability issues and fixes).</P> <p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:40 PM</span>

[SniperKitty]

I'd rather them fix the bugs involving  illusions and shapechanges (the odd angles/near a wall stuff), then to slap a band-aid on it.  The devs took the easy way out this time and it's going to come around and bite them in the as<font color="#663366">.</font>s someday. <div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>I'd rather them fix the bugs involving  illusions and shapechanges (the odd angles/near a wall stuff), then to slap a band-aid on it.  The devs took the easy way out this time and it's going to come around and bite them in the as<FONT color=#663366>.</FONT>s someday.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>While I doubt they'll ever take it out once it hits live, you have to admit that at this point in time it's better than nothing.  With the pet mage classes up in arms about pet fixes that have been promised since LU#3, Priests that have been pushed back twice already, and the myriad of other things broken in the game - Coming out and saying that fixing forms is *any* kind of priority would just [Removed for Content] a LOT of people off.  It's really not that important, there are things that are far more broken.

[-AtPlay-]

<span><blockquote><hr>SniperKitty wrote:<div></div>Laugh, call me names, whatever.  You're too small minded and ignorant to understand the repercussions this command will have over long term gameplay and perception of the devs.  People will have learned from this change, that if they whine and cry enough, something will get changed.  <b>How will you like it when months down the road, your favorite class gets nerfed because of bunch of people whined and cried enough to get it changed?</b> <font color="#ff0000">Yes, because thats never happened before in a MMOG...oh wait, it happens all the time and is completely unrelated to the /hide_yourbrain command.</font><font color="#ff0000"> </font> I'll list the reasons once again why this buff is ridiculous and should not be put into the game: 1. The benefits of a shapechange spell are directly tied to the shape you change into.  No shapechange, no benefits.  That's the way it should be. 2. It's not fair to the rest of the classes that have buffs with negative drawbacks to their buffs.  Why don't they get a command to remove those drawbacks?  After all, it's only fair and wouldn't effect your gameplay would it? =p 3. It gives group leaders a way to cause problems for people that do like the wolf form or bear form or whatever. Number three will happen.  I guarentee it.  And the devs are to blame for caving in to the lameass crybabies that moaned and whined about the shapechange buffs. <font color="#ff0000">I dont care if number 3 happens.  It makes sense to me, if you are a roleplayer, then you probably wouldnt have fun in this group anyways.</font> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Ive seen it come up a number of times, and its starting to bother me.  I cant think of one fictional reference to druids/shaman getting their power from shapeshifting, yet still being able to use their spellcasting/talking abilities.  Now, Im not saying it hasnt happened, I just cant think of one reference.  I played D&D a few decades back, so they might have changed it, but when you shapeshifted, you lost the ability to cast spells...and the ability to talk (which makes perfect sense).  And all those spells were completely offensive type spells, and didnt have the defensive type buffs that we are seeing in this game.  But its all moot anyways since this isnt D&D or any other game than EQ2.  The devs have invented their own lore, spells, combat, etc. that fit into their world.  Sure, they may have borrowed from other sources, but its their game.  Since it appears that they intended the illusions to be fun, and it isnt, they took it out.  No amount of arguing is going to change this decision, because far more people asked for it than are upset with it. </span><div></div>

[SniperKitty]

D&D has changed a lot.  They have much more variety to the forms they can take now.  The benefits of those forms are directly tied to being able to shift into those forms.  There are also feats you can take that allow you to speak and cast spells while in a form normally not capable of either. <span><font color="#ff0000">"I dont care if number 3 happens.  It makes sense to me, if you are a roleplayer, then you probably wouldnt have fun in this group anyways." </font></span> Actually, it doesn't matter if they're a roleplayer or not.  Some people may just like being a wolf.  Or a bear.  Or whatever.  I'd use my wolf form a whole lot more if they used a normal sized wolf.  I hate the appearance of the huge monstrosity.  It's just ridiculous.  It's not a wolf, it's a mutant wolf. <div></div>

[aerofr]

<DIV>so that City on the Hill of Common Sense you've been refering to is a D&D manual?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and even in D&D it requires FEATS to do things like talk?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you do know that this isn't D&D right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But really, all this arguing is stupid.  the fact is that we got the change that we wanted.  woot. go us!</DIV><p>Message Edited by aerofrog on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:52 PM</span>

[Strade]

<P>Ok just curious about the "more people asked for it" thing. </P> <P>Devs, just do a pole in game like you did a month ago. Poll would be:</P> <P>What do you think we should do about the animal form of priest?</P> <P>1) Fix the size, animation and camera bugs</P> <P>2) Put a /hide_illusion</P> <P>3) leave it like this</P> <P> </P> <P>I really doubt the majority would take answer 2. And if you don't agree with that, then yes all this arguing is stupid cause you just don't want to understand our point.</P> <P> </P>

[JWDaz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bad_Mojo wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>Which brings us back full circle.  The OP's original rant was the use of dev resources with the hide_illusion command.  You don't think all that you just said is an even bigger drain on dev resources?  Hide_illusion probably took 30 minutes to code, if even that.  Fixing animations, camera's, the movement issues, the wall issues, etc. etc. etc. is a lot of man-hours by different sections.</P> <P>For now, with ALL the other broken things... this makes sense.  It's quick and easy, and maybe later they can look into the forms when there's more time (ie. after all the extensive balancing that needs to be done, and the spell scalability issues and fixes).</P> <P>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <SPAN class=date_text>04-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:40 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And that Mojo, is my point. =)  I understand the Lore part of it, but to be honest, sacrifice the lore so I actually effectively play the game.  But to be honest, the amount of work required to fix this series of things, animations, etc... is much more than what they did.  I like the patch fix until they get to a larger fix.  It's a simple fix to make the game more easily playable... and later can be undone very quickly and changed.  <BR><BR>One person said it best.  In an ideal gaming world, there would be no /hide_illusion command, but that'd be because nobody would ever want to use it. =P<BR><BR>Currently the graphics have too many problems, and this command was actually an effective use of their own resources.

[-AtPlay-]

<span><blockquote><hr>Stradeus wrote:<p>Ok just curious about the "more people asked for it" thing. </p> <p>Devs, just do a pole in game like you did a month ago. Poll would be:</p> <p>What do you think we should do about the animal form of priest?</p> <p>1) Fix the size, animation and camera bugs</p> <p>2) Put a /hide_illusion</p> <p>3) leave it like this</p> <p>I really doubt the majority would take answer 2. And if you don't agree with that, then yes all this arguing is stupid cause you just don't want to understand our point.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well, given those choices, I still think that a majority would still choose number 2...but thats just a personal opinion.  And I may not agree but I dont think arguing is stupid, just pointless at this time.  I also do understand your point, but again, I just dont agree with it.</span><div></div>

[Mermaiden]

<DIV>Well, I guess it's good that those who don't want to be illusioned can avoid it now, but I really wish the problems with them were fixed so that people may not want to avoid them so much.  My illusions are used for nothing more than laughs.  My whole group turns into females, and half of them are bald.  On either account, we get a big laugh out of it and either they cancel the spell off themselves or I kill it from the whole group.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, who wants this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Normal hair:                                  Half-Elf Illusion:  Hair is all out of whack.  She had on NO helmet here.</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://eq2.mermaiden.net/images/BadIllusions/Kallah_normal-hair.jpg">                   <IMG src="http://eq2.mermaiden.net/images/BadIllusions/Kallah_multi-hair_.jpg"></DIV> <DIV>Can't blame her for not wanting my illusions, huh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What about the misfortunate fellas, can you blame them for not wanting to be come females?</DIV> <DIV>What about the "hairless" ones - Kerra, Erudite, etc.  They show up as BALD females.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't even use my own illusions very often because of how horrible and embarassing I feel that I look as a bald female, insisting on a hooded robe to hide behind.  Kinda sad, isn't it.  I wish I could enjoy illusions, being an illusionist and all.  I'd be fine with the existing ones being fixed, not even worrying about all the stuff beyond that which others have complained of.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So yeah, can you please hear this complain from an illusionist that there are other requests than just turning off the bad illusions, like fixing the hair problem on each race that doesn't get to choose a hair style during character generation, and not making it turn everyone in the group into females?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[bloa]

<P>Hello all,</P> <P>I agree with Sniper and his/her explanation on how the shapeshifting buff is inherent to the shape itself makes perfect sense.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message for the DEVS:</P> <P>Please hold your ground. Keep in mind this is a fantasy role-playing game and you follow a lot of rules,  this whole idea behind what druids and shamans can do is something Sony did not invent,  rather shaped it into their own mold.  In compromise why not make a spell available for druids and shaman to "shrink" their characters when in these forms mainly for when in dungeons.  I have seen many people complain how big these forms are and should be able to take less room on the screen.  Also,  perhaps you could change the look the Wolf form and Bear form as levels progress,  make them look tougher and more intimidating in levels,  change of color perhaps (each time the character gets his new shapeshifting spell) .</P> <P>I remember a poster that once said "Variety" is the way to keep people entertained so instead of giving us,  the customer, the power to make something unavailable (/hide_illusion),  give us more options so that we can get creative with it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks for your time,</P> <P> </P>

[-AtPlay-]

<span><blockquote><hr>bloads wrote:<p>Hello all,</p> <p>I agree with Sniper and his/her explanation on how the shapeshifting buff is inherent to the shape itself makes perfect sense.</p> <p>Message for the DEVS:</p> <p>Please hold your ground. Keep in mind this is a fantasy role-playing game and you follow a lot of rules,  this whole idea behind what druids and shamans can do is something Sony did not invent,  rather shaped it into their own mold.</p><hr></blockquote>Im kinda lost here, by telling Sony to hold its ground, you are saying that they should leave in the /hide_illusion spell (since they decided to make this change and its currently on test) in. As far as pulling powers from the shapeshift, that was something that really wasnt in EQ1.  There were very few illusions available to non Enchanters, and only a few spells in the Druid/Shamy spellbooks included shapeshifting.  That said, I really wouldnt mind a class that was a true shapeshifting class.  Where the person cant cast any spells, use any abilities, unless they were in another form.  I dont think that's what SOE had in mind when they added the illusions to the Druid/Shamy spells, but I think it would be a fun class.</span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bloads wrote:<BR> <P>Hello all,</P> <P>I agree with Sniper and his/her explanation on how the shapeshifting buff is inherent to the shape itself makes perfect sense.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message for the DEVS:</P> <P>Please hold your ground. Keep in mind this is a fantasy role-playing game and you follow a lot of rules,  this whole idea behind what druids and shamans can do is something Sony did not invent,  rather shaped it into their own mold.  In compromise why not make a spell available for druids and shaman to "shrink" their characters when in these forms mainly for when in dungeons.  I have seen many people complain how big these forms are and should be able to take less room on the screen.  Also,  perhaps you could change the look the Wolf form and Bear form as levels progress,  make them look tougher and more intimidating in levels,  change of color perhaps (each time the character gets his new shapeshifting spell) .</P> <P>I remember a poster that once said "Variety" is the way to keep people entertained so instead of giving us,  the customer, the power to make something unavailable (/hide_illusion),  give us more options so that we can get creative with it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks for your time,</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have to disagree with the "it's always been done this way" argument.  Any shaping into the mold that SOE did was loose at best, and rightly so.  This isn't "HistoricalyAccurateQuest 2," and definetly not "EarthMythologyAndFableQuest 2."  This is a world created by SOE to do with what they want.  If you buy a fantasy novel and one of the characters doesn't fit the "classic" mold, you don't write the author and tell him he's wrong.</P> <P>Here's an amusing story, I'm sure most have seen it but it fits...</P> <P>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana over a set of stairs. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and climb toward the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray the other monkeys with cold water.</P> <P>After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result--the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, when any monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it.</P> <P>Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace him with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To the monkey's surprise, all the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he'll be assaulted.</P> <P>Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace him with a new one. The new comer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous new comer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked.</P> <P>Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they weren't permitted to climb the stairs or why they're participating in the beating of the newest monkey.</P> <P>After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know, that's the way it's always been done around here.</P> <P>And that is how company policy begins.</P> <P>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>It's Sony's world (and they remind of that with the MOTD every time we log in).  If they wanted to add ray guns and martians tomorrow, they could - nobody would like it, but aside from storming their facility there would be nothing we could do about it - despite what the classic rules of fantasy state.  If every MMORPG stuck purely to the classic ideas of fantasy, then they would lose a lot of what sets them apart from each other.</P> <P>That said, I agree with you 110% that there should be more variety.  Variety is the spice of life in an MMORPG, and with enough of it bandaid fixes like "hide_illusion" wouldn't be necessary.  Different skins, sizes, etc (along with fixing the stuff that's broken with forms) would make people <STRONG><EM>want</EM></STRONG> to use them more.  There's a *lot* of members in the various species to model the spell forms after (and with changing nothing more than sizing and skins, could be done easily), unfortunately we are each stuck with one.</P> <P>Given the choice of waiting 6+ more months for any fixes (and likely longer for the possibility of an additional set of forms/skins) or taking /hide_illusion now... I'll take hide_illusion.  At least my wood elf can sit, swim, and jump without looking like a wind-up toy <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on <span class=date_text>04-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 PM</span>

[CuriousGeorge]

SniperKitty you are a [Removed for Content]... if you don't like /hide_illusion don't use it. Most of us want this change more then anything else. And btw happy to oblige and one-star you... [Removed for Content].

[WarXand]

<P>This is a fantastic change...</P> <P>To anyone who thinks this is a horrible change I have one question for you...</P> <P><FONT color=#0066ff>Do you use the /Show_hood function?</FONT>  If yes, then the same reasons you use to rationilize using the /show_hood command are the same reasons many of us wish to have a /show_illusion command.  Which is mainly that we would like to view the expresions and animations of our avatar...</P> <P>Besides which there are numerous other problems and complaints about these illusions that do effect <FONT color=#ff3333>OUR</FONT> game play.</P> <UL> <LI>No originality or difference in appearance from one another or NPC creatures in the game.</LI> <LI>Obstruction of views from other group members when in tight places.</LI> <LI>Faulty animations which sometimes get us stuck in walls and floors. </LI> <LI>Loss of manuverabilty when in combat or in winding areas.</LI> <LI>Players refusing certain buffs because they don't want shape changed or becoming disoriented when we shape change them during a fight.</LI></UL> <P>While I can understand those that argue, that we gain those buffs because we are taking the shape of that creature.  Is it not just as easy to say that we gain those buffs because we are absorbing the spirit of that animal, in the name of roll-playing...</P> <P>Thank You SOI this is one change I am thrilled about...</P> <P> </P>

[Trucegore_Vonbloodwor]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bad_Mojo wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Trucegore_Vonbloodworth wrote:Its common sence that thoes are shapshanges and the Buff's are a direct effect of being that creature. I realy dont care what the spells "say" on them, The classes in question, <font color="#ffff00">in any lore you will find, <u>fiction ot non</u></font>, Shapechange into that creature to gain the abilitys of that animal.I will say it again, Its like a warewolf saying " I realy like my added speed, smell, jumping distance and power...but could i not tyrn into the wolf? Its realy annoying".An in anyones mind that is stupid.you canot gain the abilitys of a creature when you do not change into it. peroid.I shall now go start a thread asking that healers not heal, necros not have anything to do with the dead, and illusionists not cast illusions = the same thing.You picked the class, you read the lore, live with it.The change is not game breaking in mechanics, but it is lore breaking. Now, that class has no meaning, no history, no worth in the scope of the lore of the world. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Please tell me you did not just cite <u>non-fiction</u> lore as a reference for shapechanging fundamentals.</p> <p>As for the rest, if we were playing "Bram Stoker Online" or "Worlds of Bela Lugosi" I'd agree with you 100%.  But this is Everquest 2, where "Crusaders" aren't pushing catholicism.  Where "Berserkers" don't run around in bear skins and bite their shields to drive them into a frenzy.  Where "Furies" aren't female tormentor's of the guilty that sprung from the corpse of Uranus.  And those in tune with nature don't need to get fleas to recieve religious benefit.</p> <p>Every read the MOTD when you log in?  I think says "<font color="#ffff00">Welcome to Everquest 2.  Your in our NEW world now!</font>"</p> <p>That emphasis on "new" is theirs, not mine <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <hr></blockquote></span> <div> <span>Ok, little hint. Nothing in this game was created by sony. Its a hodgepodge of others works thrown into a melting pot of everquest.Everything in this game came from other sources.Including real world myths and legends.I'm sorry, a shaman is a shaman, if it is not it is something else and not a shaman.</span> </div> <div> </div> <div><span class="365154600-20042005"><font face="Arial" size="2">There is nothing in this game that is original. It is all taken and "slightly" renamed versions of different works by authors and myths from the real world.</font></span></div> <div><span class="365154600-20042005"></span> </div> <div><span class="365154600-20042005"><font face="Arial" size="2">So yes, Abilities granted by shape changing into a creature to gain its natural benefits go hand in hand. Gaining the ability to NOT change but keep the benefits is "lore" breaking.</font></span></div> <span></span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trucegore_Vonbloodworth wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <DIV> <SPAN>Ok, little hint. Nothing in this game was created by sony. Its a hodgepodge of others works thrown into a melting pot of everquest.<BR><BR>Everything in this game came from other sources.<BR><BR>Including real world myths and legends.<BR><BR>I'm sorry, a shaman is a shaman, if it is not it is something else and not a shaman.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=365154600-20042005><FONT face=Arial size=2>There is nothing in this game that is original. It is all taken and "slightly" renamed versions of different works by authors and myths from the real world.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=365154600-20042005></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=365154600-20042005><FONT face=Arial size=2>So yes, Abilities granted by shape changing into a creature to gain its natural benefits go hand in hand. Gaining the ability to NOT change but keep the benefits is "lore" breaking.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN></SPAN> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok, little hint, "Slightly Renamed" doesn't work here.  Please show me where "Berserkers" in EQ2 equate in any way to the sources you claim they are pulling them from.  Alternatively, you can show me a historic source that cites Berserkers as a group that wears full plate mail and carries tower sheilds.  For an even bigger difference, explain why if Furies are only "Slightly renamed" versions of the classical Greek Fury... that there are MALE furies, and where exactly they came from since the Greek god Uranus doesn't exist in EQ lore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To answer your own question more correctly, the fact that we even <EM>have</EM> Berserkers, Crusaders (please show me a Crusade in EQ lore..), and Furies is "lore breaking" as you put it.  Likely they were named as the <EM>closest</EM> thing to what we have as lore on Earth, but that hardly means SOE has to abide by the constraints of classic fantasy fiction.  Honestly, if every MMORPG had to follow those rules, they would all be exactly the same - and who in their right mind wants that?  Not me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And again, it doesn't matter anyway since it's <EM>their</EM> game.  If they wanted to make Barbarians 3-feet tall tomorrow and Halflings 10-feet eleven inches tall, they could and there's nothing you, me, nor anyone else can do about it  :shrug:</DIV>

[Trucegore_Vonbloodwor]

<div></div><div></div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> Where was I speaking in absolutes? Where did i list thoes? Concepts can be taken and twisted. but the simple fact and common since is.</font><span class="365154600-20042005">Abilities granted by shape changing into a creature to gain its natural benefits go hand in hand. Gaining the ability to NOT change but keep the benefits is "lore" breaking.There is still nothing in EQ that they created, even in your examples they are adopted versions.There are a crap ton of content and locals that are almost directly taken from D&D, Lord of the rings, and any other "fantasy" works, including myths and lore.<span class="739134601-20042005">If you cant see that im sorry.</span>Nothing in this game is the complete work of Sony, and that is one of the draws of the game, Its has so many great works rolled into one.But that's still not the point.Those classes traditionally in any incarnations are granted there abilities by SHAPE CHANGING to the form. It is not an illusion.</span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font><span class="365154600-20042005"><font face="Arial" size="2"></font></span><div></div><p> Its like a warewolf saying " I realy like my added speed, smell, jumping distance and power...but could i not tyrn into the wolf? Its realy annoying".<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Trucegore_Vonbloodworth on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:56 PM</span>

[-AtPlay-]

<span><blockquote><hr>Trucegore_Vonbloodworth wrote:<font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font><span class="365154600-20042005">Abilities granted by shape changing into a creature to gain its natural benefits go hand in hand. Gaining the ability to NOT change but keep the benefits is "lore" breaking. <font color="#ff0000"> </font></span><font color="#ff0000"><span>I could say the same about being able to wield magic while shapeshifted.  That is lore breaking,  which EQ broke long ago.  The devs may have borrowed from previous sources, but that doesnt mean they have to follow any set of rules other than their own.  Ask the next Wood Elf/High Elf Shadowknight or Ogre/Troll Paladin you come across what they think about the ability to break traditional "non-EQ" lore.</span></font> <span class="365154600-20042005">There is still nothing in EQ that they created, even in your examples they are adopted versions. <font color="#ff0000">Oh, thats silly...there is plenty that EQ created.  I mean, there are 2 full games and loads of expansion packs that are original to EQ.</font>There are a crap ton of content and locals that are almost directly taken from D&D, Lord of the rings, and any other "fantasy" works, including myths and lore.<span class="739134601-20042005">If you cant see that im sorry. <font color="#ff0000">Yup, lots of borrowed stuff.  But even D&D,Lord of the Rings, andall other "fantasy" works have borrowed from previous sources.</font> </span>Nothing in this game is the complete work of Sony, and that is one of the draws of the game, Its has so many great works rolled into one. <font color="#ff0000">Couldnt agree more.  I dont see anything wrong with the current EQ adaption in the mythos of the "fantasy" realm.</font>But that's still not the point.Those classes traditionally in any incarnations are granted there abilities by SHAPE CHANGING to the form. It is not an illusion.</span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font><span class="365154600-20042005"></span><p> Its like a warewolf saying " I realy like my added speed, smell, jumping distance and power...but could i not tyrn into the wolf? Its realy annoying". </p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Well technically a werewolf wouldnt be able to say anything since they couldnt talk.  They were also unable to control their own shapechanging abilities (which really wouldnt fit in the current game.)  Imagine if a Druid/Shamy just changed into and out of their animal skins at random times.  When in animal form, they are unable to talk, quest, or cast spells.  It just wouldnt work in this setting.  I asked earlier, and apparently in D&D you can talk while shapeshifted (with the help of some high level ability).  That *IS* lorebreaking right there, but its their own game, and I can see why they did it.  What I cant see is why people are so unable to accept change at the most trivial level.</font> <span class="time_text"></span></p> <p><span class="time_text"></span></p><hr></blockquote></span><span> </span><div></div>

[Bad_Mojo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trucegore_Vonbloodworth wrote:<BR> <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> Where was I speaking in absolutes? Where did i list thoes? Concepts can be taken and twisted. but the simple fact and common since is.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So your saying concepts can be taken and twisted, but not if you don't agree with it?</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR><BR></FONT><SPAN class=365154600-20042005>Abilities granted by shape changing into a creature to gain its natural benefits go hand in hand. Gaining the ability to NOT change but keep the benefits is "lore" breaking.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=365154600-20042005><FONT color=#ffff00>Since there's no real "lore" spelled out on shapechanging and EQ2, what are you complaining about?  There is plenty of background in other sources that allow people the use of these abilities without the full change - Finger's that grow claws and such for attacking without the need to drop on all fours.  There is also plenty of media that allows incremental shapechanging, to include the RPG Werewolf.</FONT><BR><BR>There is still nothing in EQ that they created, even in your examples they are adopted versions.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=365154600-20042005><FONT color=#ffff00>Heads up, they just created a way to get bonuses without a shapechange.</FONT><BR><BR>There are a crap ton of content and locals that are almost directly taken from D&D, Lord of the rings, and any other "fantasy" works, including myths and lore.<SPAN class=739134601-20042005>If you cant see that im sorry.</SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=365154600-20042005><FONT color=#ffff00>I've been an avid player of RPG's since the 70's.  That's probably why I can be so open minded about changes to the genre, and you have trouble grasping anything that's not vanilla fantasy.</FONT><BR><BR>Nothing in this game is the complete work of Sony, and that is one of the draws of the game, Its has so many great works rolled into one.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=365154600-20042005><FONT color=#ffff00>I never said it wasn't?</FONT><BR><BR>But that's still not the point.<BR><BR>Those classes traditionally in any incarnations are granted there abilities by SHAPE CHANGING to the form. It is not an illusion.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=365154600-20042005></SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>I never said it was an illusion.  As far as traditional values... There's nothing wrong with going against the grain - if it weren't for those with the courage to do so, we wouldn't <EM>have</EM> all those sources you listed above.</FONT></P> <P>Its like a warewolf saying " I realy like my added speed, smell, jumping distance and power...but could i not tyrn into the wolf? Its realy annoying".</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>No it's not.  In werewolf lore, it was a disease.  There was no way to control it, and you turned into a violent killer that could neither speak, nor cast spells and heal people.  Werewolves do not equal Druids.  No where in anything I have ever read did it say Druid's were cursed by their gods to be required to shapechange every full moon.  There's an incredibly huge difference in being cursed as opposed to blessed by your gods.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Vaelorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stradeus wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vaelorn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LobaLobaLoba wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sniper, you have my agreement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They aren't illusion spells at all once they make the illusion optional; just lame buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Unless there's some sort of performance issue associated with illusions, I don't see why the illusion toggle is necessary either.</U></STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is the single most important reason that this sort of command was <STRONG>necessary</STRONG>.  On my old machine, I could play EQ2 just fine with graphics turned down, but as soon as a Conjuror turned themselves into a flaming elemental, my framerate would literally crawl under a rock and die every time they appeared on my screen.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok this is simple, go into option and put the particle effect down. Lag fixed. Do I ask a /remove_water command if reflexion make my machine lag? No. I go into option and see what can be tweek to fix it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>On my old machine, I had EVERY setting set to minimum or completely off, except I pushed the clipping plane out a little so I could see things before they would agro on me.  Some of these illusions and spell effects really cannot be adjusted in the options.  I know this from first-hand experience.  This command is necessary for people with older machines.  Even on new powerhouse machines, some of the spell effects still cause major stutter, and that's when you solo and nobody else is around.<BR>

[zoiric3]

<P>I just want to say that I play a warden and I think that the illusion of the wolf is ridiculous.  It's too big, and the constant barking and panting is annoying.  Don't give me any of this "realistic" crap.  </P> <P>#1 this is a game.  </P> <P>#2 it's a fantasy game.  </P> <P>#3 The barking and panting are on like a 10 second audio loop and never change and wolf is monsterous in size.  That wasn't in my wolf form fantasy!  Why not make us turn into a smaller wolf that doesn't bark and pant as much, and looks more like a wolf than a rabid dog.  </P> <P>#4 I barely fit in a normal dungeon hallway.  Are wolves that large even in a fantasy world?</P> <P>Also I would like to say that if I don't use wolf form I would take a serious hit for a lot of stats...  It gives me almost 200 Mitigation for crying out loud!  Not something you can justify ever having turned off...  So yeah I would be stuck in wolf form forever, which defeats the purpose Sony had of being able to identify your friends by their faces or whatever.  jeesh.</P> <P> </P>

[WarXand]

<DIV>For all of you that continually say that this change is some sort of lore breaker and goes against the mythology fiction or non-fiction of the shaman or druid.  I think this is simply going against your view or idea of what a shaman is and does.  Every single reference I have come across mentions that these where priest who communicated with nature and the spirits to gain their power... NO WHERE does it say they gain their powers from shape shifting.  Here is a little excerpt regarding indian and inuit shamans.  you'll also find that other cultures regard shamans in this same light...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffff66 size=1><FONT size=2> Shaman is a religious figure in Indian and Inuit society. The shaman could be either a man or a woman, and <U>was the link between the spirit world and the community</U>. He or she was expected to foretell the future, control the weather, locate fish or game, provide leadership in religious celebrations, heal the sick, and expel evil spirits.</FONT> </FONT> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66 size=2><STRONG><U>The powers of the shaman were believed to come from a supernatural force. A spirit entered the chosen person, usually during a trance, and gave the shaman powers of healing and knowledge</U></STRONG>.</FONT></P> <P>In my opinion I feel this change brings Shamans and Druids closer to the actual Lore of these types of priests.  PLEASE NOTE:  The <FONT color=#ff6600>SPIRIT</FONT><FONT color=#ff6600> enters the Shaman</FONT> and gives them powers of healing and knowledge.  A spirit entering a shaman is a big difference from shapeshifting them.  </P></DIV>

[CamelSpyder]

I disagree with you on this one.  I have a warden and it got old real quick having to be in wolf form anytime I go to a hazardous zone or battle.  I understand the RP perspective but I occasionally would like to watch my guy use his hard-earned weapons and in his armor.  I was thrilled when I saw we could hide "illusions"  --- Thanks devs! 

[CamelSpyder]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stradeus wrote:<BR> <P>2) Put a /hide_illusion</P> <P>I really doubt the majority would take answer 2. And if you don't agree with that, then yes all this arguing is stupid cause you just don't want to understand our point.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think you're wrong because most other priest friends of mine hate having to be in animal form whenever they adventure.  Thats just fact.    Everyone wants to see their weapons and armor at least -sometimes-.  </P> <P>I don't see why this is even a big deal.  It gives the individual player a choice (yay) and doesn't affect gameplay, whats wrong with that?  By the same argument, you could say that we shouldn't have the ability to hide our helmets.<BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by CamelSpyder on <span class=date_text>04-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 PM</span>

[IsmeldaLasomb]

Seeing all the bugs still existing, i agree with the original poster : a total waste of ressources.

[Zerofault]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR>The only "illusions" that are worthwhile buffs, are NOT ILLUSIONS.  They are physcial changes to the characters body and that's why the buff grants the enhancements it does.  The /hide_illusion command is a pointless waste of the devs time and a copout.  The devs are caving in to the whining crybabies.  If you want the benefits of the buff, deal with the frakkin' shapechange then you freaking crybabies.  Otherwise don't use the damned thing.  It's that simple.  Alternatively, you can use an illusion, like Call of the Fae or Rowyl's Form of the Vale (although it does say form) to cover up the wolf / lion / bear / whatever form.<BR><BR>Point is, the spells are physical changes to the character.  They are not illusions that you can simply get rid of.  The point of the buffs is that you get the benefits from the physical shape your character is in.  Colossus from the X-Men had to change his skin to metal to get the benefits of his invulnerability.  He couldn't just 'turn off' the metal but still be invulnerable.  You should not be allowed to hide the physical change of shapechange buffs.  They are technically not an illusion, but a physical change of the character.<BR><BR>I fully expect all the crybabies to come out of the woodwork and one star me.  Bring it on whiners.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I totally agree with this post... this is why people are quitting eq2..  Tehy are totally sissifying eq2 to a point that I had to give up.  I can't take it... I have lost words to express how disappointed I am in the direction this game has chosen from the beginning and how it appears to be going now.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lodoz l33tIst zerker ever</P>

[Strade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CamelSpyder wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stradeus wrote:<BR> <P>2) Put a /hide_illusion</P> <P>I really doubt the majority would take answer 2. And if you don't agree with that, then yes all this arguing is stupid cause you just don't want to understand our point.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think you're wrong because most other priest friends of mine hate having to be in animal form whenever they adventure.  Thats just fact.    Everyone wants to see their weapons and armor at least -sometimes-.  </P> <P>I don't see why this is even a big deal.  It gives the individual player a choice (yay) and doesn't affect gameplay, whats wrong with that?  By the same argument, you could say that we shouldn't have the ability to hide our helmets.<BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by CamelSpyder on <SPAN class=date_text>04-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:16 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The thing is that nobody is wrong or good inside this. They listen to the minory that were [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing. This is what make me mad. They put Roleplay aspect to garbage witht his command. They were lazy to fix animal forms bug.</P> <P>Lot more people ask for animatin like siting and such things then the hide_illusion command. </P> <P>Oh and i never ever seen someone in game complain about animals forms. Maybe its just me ... or maybe that Im guilded and i tend to group with mature people that don't whine and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about everything in game.</P>

[Finora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LobaLobaLoba wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless there's some sort of performance issue associated with illusions, I don't see why the illusion toggle is necessary either.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First, I'm thrilled with the changes to illusions to make them toggle.  And yes there are problems with some of the illusions at least. Bear form is MASSIVE and gets stuck on scenery in dungeons. Using snake form to fix that, makes you extremely low to the ground and has weird flipping as you move. Hawk also has some of the same issues of both.  Beaver, even bigger and more likely to get stuck on things than Bear.</P> <P> </P> <P>So inconclusion, until YOUR class has an extremely important buff that using messes with your game play deal with us getting a needed change.<BR></P>

[Erendil]

<P>9 pages of comments on Hide_Illusion.........the mind boggles. Do the people posting here about how awful this command is not have better things to do with their time? If you like the command, use it: If you don't like it, dont use it. It has no impact on anyone else's gameplay, so who cares?</P> <P> </P> <P>I suggest you save your rants for things that DO impact your gameplay</P> <P>Yay Sony for doing something that apparently a lot of priest class types want that won't hurt anyone else :smileyhappy:</P>

[Elda]

<P>OMG can we end this conversation? </P> <P>Look. We were all tired of looking like a stuffed animals glued to the top of a remote controlled car. We all agree. We don't have problems looking like an animal, just problems looking like fake animals that happen to look exactly like 1000 other players on your server, in every single aspect. </P> <P>If SoE had created illusions to animate correctly, not have camera issues, and had the time and resources to let you customize your animal avatar, and have its appearance commensurate to your advancement (just like your regular character model) few people would have the desire to /hide it. But, SoE doesn't currently have those resources. When they have time, maybe they'll do that, and then they can remove /hide_ill and we can all stop arguing about this.</P> <P>until then....please stop,</P> <P>brood.</P>

[Sebastien]

It's absolutely ridiculous that this thread has gone on so long imo.  This was a feature requested by many players, SOE was nice enough to deliver.. amazing that some of you can see this a cause to rant. <div></div>

[Despa]

<P>Why dwell on the fact that they made a change that alot of players requested and turn it into a bad thing?  Of course there are other changes that need to be made to the game which might be more important to gameplay...or maybe you just feel that the /hide_illusion command takes away from roleplaying....so don't use it then(if we aren't /roleplay[ing] then it doesn't matter anyway)....but many of us are happy about this change. As a 45 Fury I can't tell you how many people have turned down my lion form heal/buff just because they "HATE" being a lion.  Do you understand how frustrating that is for a healer for someone to not want a heal or agi buff which helps avoidance which could make our jobs easier?  </P>

[Khannivore]

Wow... 9 pages. I shall bookmark this thread for when Scouts have to fight for normal runspeed during stealth.Apparently, if a lot of people ask for a change, it will happen. Afterall, what other archetype has to suffer ~50% slower running when using their invis buff? Why should scouts be the only one to suffer such a "side effect"?

[Debillus]

<span><blockquote><hr>Khannivore wrote:Wow... 9 pages. I shall bookmark this thread for when Scouts have to fight for normal runspeed during stealth.Apparently, if a lot of people ask for a change, it will happen. Afterall, what other archetype has to suffer ~50% slower running when using their invis buff? Why should scouts be the only one to suffer such a "side effect"?<hr></blockquote></span>Because the "side effect" of the invis buff is to slow you down, hence altering your gameplay. Running from a see-invis mob, while invis, to avoid further aggro is something you cannot do now, but would be able to if you had normal runspeed, hence gamealtering. Illusions have no bearing on gameplay /B <div></div>

[Khannivore]

<P>And perhaps the lower viewpoint, larger size and clumsiness, etc are also side effects of those particular buffs that are meant to affect gameplay?<BR><BR>Someone asked why no other class' buffs require ridiculous illusions to take effect, so I ask why do no other class' invis require a slower run speed?</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff9900>Edit: If we had a dead horse illusion in game, this thread would cast it. Locking.</FONT></STRONG></P><p>Message Edited by Moorgard on <span class=date_text>04-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:57 PM</span>