Swatting flies with nukes!

[Sunfire]

<DIV>Step back SOE and get some perspective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3><EM>Current combat state of EQ2:</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>1) Solo vs. Group balance is in great shape - something for everyone to do</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>2) Priest balance is good except Furies need heal output increase, Wards need to be fixed, minor tweaks elsewhere</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>3) Mage soloing is finally workable - good risk v. reward balance finally achieved with use of root vs. limited durability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>4) Tank balance is good although SKs need some power and taunt help and DPS equality may need tweaks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>5) DPS class balance is good - wizards need minor tweaks as do scouts but all are desirable.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>6) Occasional high level encounters suffer from a bug where tanks become unhittable due to buff stacking and top gear.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3><EM>If LU#7 goes live:</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>1) Soloing "good xp" mobs now nearly impossible for non-Tank classes.  Priest and mage soloing completey broken.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>2) Priest balance highly disrupted as light armor priests absent parry are a HUGE aggro liability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>3) Tank balance screwed again - Guardians will be the supreme choice tank ... whether due to fact or perception this will occur because of these changes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>4) DPS balance totally skewed away from mages who although "DPS capable" in theory will be limited to small, timid applications of damage since any aggro will kill them faster than the healer can cycle to them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>5) High end aggro mitigation bug will be fixed - yeah.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you get it?  <STRONG><FONT size=3>You're going to break the entire game to fix a problem specific to 1% of the high end encounters</FONT> </STRONG>which could avoided using some simple stat-caps.  Not only is this ill-advised and irresponsible it is a <STRONG><FONT size=3>complete betrayal of the trust of your customer base</FONT></STRONG>.  BETA is over, the "honeymoon" period post-release is over, this is a mature game which people have become very invested in - you don't just go and re-write the core combat system because there is a rare, minor, trivial problem with the system which the entire game has been balanced around for the last 8 months.  Fine you want to do this - go ahead - but you will have broken everyone's trust in your ability to operate a consistent game and I'll only speak for myself but you will destroy the loyalty which I had been developing toward your product.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldnt put my money in a mutual fund that said it invested in biotech and then 6 months later put all its money in rare coins, I won't become too invested a game that changes the core rules on a whim after 6 months of release either.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>Drop this whole LU#7 mess now - fix the broken classes - work on the expansion - leave the core of the game alone.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>

[Morv]

<P>THIS MAN STATES THE TRUTH!!!!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>hopfully someone listens.....</P>

[rivethead]

Aye but there is a solution <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=43519 Heh I figure i am going to put this idea out there enough maybe some of the people who actually make decisions about the game will sit up and listen. <div></div>

[Teryan]

<P>My thoughts exactly yesterday when reading the patch notes on test ... the usual overkill.</P> <P>"Aaah, cute, trying to kill the fly with the sledgehammer again, are we?"</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Blackdog183]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3></FONT></DIV> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you get it?  <STRONG><FONT size=3>You're going to break the entire game to fix a problem specific to 1% of the high end encounters</FONT> </STRONG>which could avoided using some simple stat-caps.  Not only is this ill-advised and irresponsible it is a <STRONG><FONT size=3>complete betrayal of the trust of your customer base</FONT></STRONG>.  BETA is over, the "honeymoon" period post-release is over, this is a mature game which people have become very invested in - you don't just go and re-write the core combat system because there is a rare, minor, trivial problem with the system which the entire game has been balanced around for the last 8 months.  Fine you want to do this - go ahead - but you will have broken everyone's trust in your ability to operate a consistent game and I'll only speak for myself but you will destroy the loyalty which I had been developing toward your product.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldnt put my money in a mutual fund that said it invested in biotech and then 6 months later put all its money in rare coins, I won't become too invested a game that changes the core rules on a whim after 6 months of release either.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>Drop this whole LU#7 mess now - fix the broken classes - work on the expansion - leave the core of the game alone.</STRONG></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>/agree 5 stars for u</DIV>

[Damonious Ba]

agree !

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunfireII wrote:<BR> <DIV>Step back SOE and get some perspective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3><EM>Current combat state of EQ2:</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>1) Solo vs. Group balance is in great shape - something for everyone to do</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>2) Priest balance is good except Furies need heal output increase, Wards need to be fixed, minor tweaks elsewhere</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>3) Mage soloing is finally workable - good risk v. reward balance finally achieved with use of root vs. limited durability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>4) Tank balance is good although SKs need some power and taunt help and DPS equality may need tweaks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>5) DPS class balance is good - wizards need minor tweaks as do scouts but all are desirable.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cc00 size=3>6) Occasional high level encounters suffer from a bug where tanks become unhittable due to buff stacking and top gear.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3><EM>If LU#7 goes live:</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>1) Soloing "good xp" mobs now nearly impossible for non-Tank classes.  Priest and mage soloing completey broken.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>2) Priest balance highly disrupted as light armor priests absent parry are a HUGE aggro liability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>3) Tank balance screwed again - Guardians will be the supreme choice tank ... whether due to fact or perception this will occur because of these changes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>4) DPS balance totally skewed away from mages who although "DPS capable" in theory will be limited to small, timid applications of damage since any aggro will kill them faster than the healer can cycle to them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>5) High end aggro mitigation bug will be fixed - yeah.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you get it?  <STRONG><FONT size=3>You're going to break the entire game to fix a problem specific to 1% of the high end encounters</FONT> </STRONG>which could avoided using some simple stat-caps.  Not only is this ill-advised and irresponsible it is a <STRONG><FONT size=3>complete betrayal of the trust of your customer base</FONT></STRONG>.  BETA is over, the "honeymoon" period post-release is over, this is a mature game which people have become very invested in - you don't just go and re-write the core combat system because there is a rare, minor, trivial problem with the system which the entire game has been balanced around for the last 8 months.  Fine you want to do this - go ahead - but you will have broken everyone's trust in your ability to operate a consistent game and I'll only speak for myself but you will destroy the loyalty which I had been developing toward your product.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldnt put my money in a mutual fund that said it invested in biotech and then 6 months later put all its money in rare coins, I won't become too invested a game that changes the core rules on a whim after 6 months of release either.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>Drop this whole LU#7 mess now - fix the broken classes - work on the expansion - leave the core of the game alone.</STRONG></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I disagree:</P> <P> </P> <P>1- Stat caps are game breaking in regards to longevity.  You must remember that while casual players pay for the game, its the other minority that is in it for the long run and pushes the game to its maximum.  The 'hardcore' player strives on eeking out every bit he or she can of their character.  If you start imposing caps, there will be no reason for one to 'progress' their character and thus will just move on to a different game.  While there is a point of diminishing returns, any progression a person can feel is what keeps them motiviated.</P> <P>2- Solo game is great now, but hate to say this is a MMO.  While I do not want to see solo/small group (read duo/trio) encounter go away, they can not be setup in the way they are with the current changes.  There is very little group (heroic) encounters now and where they are located, there are very few spawns dominated by dozens of solo/small group mobs.  This creates the exact oppiste problem solo players were having (group mobs arround solo mobs) and needs to be rectifiyed.</P> <P>3- SK's need alot more owrk then just power and taunt.  Our LT's are usless, our Wards can funtionally kill us, our power/damage blows, and our mitigation/avoidance ratio to other fighters is horrible.  Please, your a solo'r and I respect that .. but you must understand the impact of all these changes being proposed on a character higher level/different content then you.</P> <P>4- DPS balance is terriable and honestly dont think you either play those classes or dont understand the impact all of the changes will have on them.  Scouts, especially with the changes, are getting even more gimped in their soloablity and the damage bonus being proposed favors fighers . thus narrowing the dps between the two groups.</P> <P>5) 'Occasional' is not the right word.  Guardians should not  have the highest HP, highest Mitigation, Highest Block, same Parry, and (where the issue is) highest dodge.  Even buffed this should not be the case.  They need to migrate to a arch type/agi point table system that gives other classes a higher return (especially crusaders, monks and scouts) per point of agi.  Even the limited results from test show that a priest is light armor with 100 less agi and 6 levels lower has higher mitigation -AND- avoidance then a scout .. thats bad bad bad.</P> <P>6) Your compairson to LU7 for mages is based upon what information?  None of the combat changes impact that .. so Im not sure what your refering to . as for healer 'healing a mage' .. the mage should not have agro in the first place.  If you do, thats your skill not the game (this is not being mean, just fact).</P> <P>7) As mentioned in 5 and the rest, the remaining fighters in the correct balancing situation will gain some ground on the Guardian and hopefully the Guardian will gain a higher level of mitigation/block in return for less dodge .. we shall see .. thats what many of the current threads an concerns are about.</P> <P>My 2 cp</P> <P> </P>

[Carryne]

I am a priest and I duo with a mage.  I would like to have the option to land a heal before she becomes a smear on the floor from some mob. <div></div>

[Miral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunfireII wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>3) Tank balance screwed again - Guardians will be the supreme choice tank ... whether due to fact or perception this will occur because of these changes.</FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I dono to me it seems paladins would be the supreme choice...  I mean, theyre pretty much a guardian with heals and wards and free jboots that they cna wear without sacrificing an armor slot...... yeah they get a whole 1% less block chance with the best shields, big whooper. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But anyways yea, this update is just..... bad.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:54 AM</span>

[Tami]

A mage is not designed to take hits .. least not for long .. regardless of constant healing.  Leverge her pet and control agro ... or buff during fight and utilize your mitigation skill to effectively tank.

[Tami]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunfireII wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>3) Tank balance screwed again - Guardians will be the supreme choice tank ... whether due to fact or perception this will occur because of these changes.</FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I dono to me it seems paladins would be the supreme choice...  I mean, theyre pretty much a guardian with heals and wards... yeah they get a whole 1% less block change, big whooper. But anyways yea, this update is just..... bad.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1) Pallys dont get wards</P> <P>2) Pallys do not have the same base HP a guardian has</P> <P>3) Pallys can not use Tower Shields</P> <P>4) Pally heals (and i wont even start ranting over how bad SK wards are) do not make up the difference in mitigation on high end encounters.</P> <P>5) Guardians (pre patch .. no one knows exactly what is happening with the buffs) were able to buff themselfs, cross buff, and gain buffs from other classes to increase their 'avoidance' to unreasonable levels.  While none of us like the proposed changes, something needs to be done (I am def vocal on how bad the proposed changes are .. but least admit that changes are needed).<BR></P>

[Miral]

<P>1) crusaders do anyway, and it still works once you become a paladin. sure it might not be that great, but itll absorb a nice big attack that could otherwise kill you...</P> <P>2) pretty sure base hp is based mainly on level and stamina. might be off a bit between the classes, but not much. if the same player makes both a guardian and a paladin and advances them the same way with the same gear, they'll be pretty darn close.</P> <P>3) tower shields arent all that great... their big, bulky, ugly, and usually have crappy stats. a tiny bit higher block chance, but not much.</P> <P>4) pretty close to #2 here. plus with this new cap bullcrap, both classes can most likely hit that cap.</P> <P>5) yeah, thats pretty much what this crappy patch was put in to remove. nevermind the fact that paladins can solo green epics, so long as a guardian cant tank the other epics with relative ease.</P> <p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:04 AM</span>

[TD_]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=37432" target=_blank><SPAN>Tamian</SPAN></A> wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I disagree:</DIV> <P> </P> <P>1- Stat caps are game breaking in regards to longevity.  You must remember that while casual players pay for the game, its the other minority that is in it for the long run and pushes the game to its maximum.  The 'hardcore' player strives on eeking out every bit he or she can of their character.  If you start imposing caps, there will be no reason for one to 'progress' their character and thus will just move on to a different game.  While there is a point of diminishing returns, any progression a person can feel is what keeps them motiviated.</P> <P>2- Solo game is great now, but hate to say this is a MMO.  While I do not want to see solo/small group (read duo/trio) encounter go away, they can not be setup in the way they are with the current changes.  There is very little group (heroic) encounters now and where they are located, there are very few spawns dominated by dozens of solo/small group mobs.  This creates the exact oppiste problem solo players were having (group mobs arround solo mobs) and needs to be rectifiyed.</P> <P>3- SK's need alot more owrk then just power and taunt.  Our LT's are usless, our Wards can funtionally kill us, our power/damage blows, and our mitigation/avoidance ratio to other fighters is horrible.  Please, your a solo'r and I respect that .. but you must understand the impact of all these changes being proposed on a character higher level/different content then you.</P> <P>4- DPS balance is terriable and honestly dont think you either play those classes or dont understand the impact all of the changes will have on them.  Scouts, especially with the changes, are getting even more gimped in their soloablity and the damage bonus being proposed favors fighers . thus narrowing the dps between the two groups.</P> <P>5) 'Occasional' is not the right word.  Guardians should not  have the highest HP, highest Mitigation, Highest Block, same Parry, and (where the issue is) highest dodge.  Even buffed this should not be the case.  They need to migrate to a arch type/agi point table system that gives other classes a higher return (especially crusaders, monks and scouts) per point of agi.  Even the limited results from test show that a priest is light armor with 100 less agi and 6 levels lower has higher mitigation -AND- avoidance then a scout .. thats bad bad bad.</P> <P>6) Your compairson to LU7 for mages is based upon what information?  None of the combat changes impact that .. so Im not sure what your refering to . as for healer 'healing a mage' .. the mage should not have agro in the first place.  If you do, thats your skill not the game (this is not being mean, just fact).</P> <P>7) As mentioned in 5 and the rest, the remaining fighters in the correct balancing situation will gain some ground on the Guardian and hopefully the Guardian will gain a higher level of mitigation/block in return for less dodge .. we shall see .. thats what many of the current threads an concerns are about.</P> <P>My 2 cp</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>Completely agree with this poster I've quoted. If I could give 10 stars I would. Although the original poster realizes there is a problem, the poster above sees it through <STRONG>all </STRONG>classes and not just the mage and priest as the original poster did. We are ALL getting gimped, Scouts especially. This poster also knows what he/she is talking about. I also agree that the caps are a shoddy fix, and what Sony is trying to accomplish... rework the system so hard caps aren't needed... is meant well, just done horribly wrong.</P>

[prisoner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tamian wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SunfireII wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3>3) Tank balance screwed again - Guardians will be the supreme choice tank ... whether due to fact or perception this will occur because of these changes.</FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I dono to me it seems paladins would be the supreme choice...  I mean, theyre pretty much a guardian with heals and wards... yeah they get a whole 1% less block change, big whooper. But anyways yea, this update is just..... bad.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1) Pallys dont get wards</FONT></P> <P>2) Pallys do not have the same base HP a guardian has</P> <P>3) Pallys can not use Tower Shields</P> <P>4) Pally heals (and i wont even start ranting over how bad SK wards are) do not make up the difference in mitigation on high end encounters.</P> <P>5) Guardians (pre patch .. no one knows exactly what is happening with the buffs) were able to buff themselfs, cross buff, and gain buffs from other classes to increase their 'avoidance' to unreasonable levels.  While none of us like the proposed changes, something needs to be done (I am def vocal on how bad the proposed changes are .. but least admit that changes are needed).<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We (paladins) do indeed get wards.  Sadly they become alot less useful as our levels increase and mobs hit harder (same issues shamans currently deal with).  My ward absorbs 420 points of damage now and is often killed in 1 hit by solo mobs,  so the usefulness is not as extreme as alot think it is.  Also,  they consume a large amount of power,  as do our heals.  Nice in a pinch but just not efficient.  Thats part of the balance though.  We do indeed have those skills,  but at a hefty cost.  Are they balanced enough?  Thats for another thread. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as shields are concerned,  the blocking % may or may not be an issue.  All tanks together should have the same % to block/deflect with equal tiers of skills and gear.  The attacks we dont block are mitigated or avoided(supposedly).  The main difference between shield types is the AC value.  We may  be close in our chance to block,  but with a lower AC we dont mitigate an attack that comes through as well.  The supposed 'balance' in that is our heals and wards or higher avoidance for monks and bruisers,  but those are questionable and are still in need of being looked into for all classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>17</DIV>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Miral wrote:<BR> <P>1) crusaders do anyway, and it still works once you become a paladin. sure it might not be that great, but itll absorb a nice big attack that could otherwise kill you...</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>At lvl 38 my SK as a 400 point ward, mobs at my level hit for around 700 on average, with some of the 45's I tank hitting at 1k+, raid mobs hit alot harder than that.  That 400 point ward comes at a very hefty power cost, and the 400 points is <STRONG><EM><U>unmitigated, </U></EM></STRONG>which actuallly means it block somehere around 100 points of actual damage, I wouldnt call that a good trade off</FONT></P> <P>2) pretty sure base hp is based mainly on level and stamina. might be off a bit between the classes, but not much. if the same player makes both a guardian and a paladin and advances them the same way with the same gear, they'll be pretty darn close.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Not true, the table for warriors and crusader is different for per point gains based on STA and AGI</FONT></P> <P>3) tower shields arent all that great... their big, bulky, ugly, and usually have crappy stats. a tiny bit higher block chance, but not much.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Not to mention a helluva lot more mitigation on them.</FONT></P> <P>4) pretty close to #2 here. plus with this new cap bullcrap, both classes can most likely hit that cap.</P> <P>5) yeah, thats pretty much what this crappy patch was put in to remove. nevermind the fact that paladins can solo green epics, so long as a guardian cant tank the other epics with relative ease.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>As many others have pointed out, why in the hell would I(a SK) waste my time leading an epic mob around for god only knows how long, to get crap xp and crap loot.  Face it, any mob that CAN be soloed, isnt worth killing as it is.  I would rather be able to go tank the worthwhile epics, or go lay waste to mobs like warlocks and wizards do.  I can take a level 40 warlock out and just destroy Stag deer in EF.  They drop body loot and chests fairly often, making it very easy to collect some money.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Miral on <SPAN class=date_text>04-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:04 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[aeio]

I have to agree with you here.  At this point I am completely in the dark as to what they are trying to fix, so it is hard to provide any reasonable feedback that might help them fix the problem without running roughshod over everyone else. I imagine they would be hesitant to share what the problem is, because they are afraid that more people will take advantage of it until the changes go live, and they don't want that.  I find that totally understandable.  Unfortunately it doesn't help resolve this situation. So if there is a set of circumstances or a class or classes that are able to become nearly invulnerable through whatever means, why not issue a temporary fix to address that specific issue.  Then you can explain to all of us what the problem was and we can work with you and provide feedback for a more agreeable change. I know Moorgard said in another thread that people are opposed to change when it makes things more difficult for them, and I agree with this sentiment 100%. Only problem is in the realm of balancing you need to both bring people down to the middle ground and raise people up to it.  With this set of proposed changes you are potentially taking people already in the middle ground or below it and pushing them further down in order to bring someone above it down. I want to see these changes made and the actual problerm resolved, but hopefully without trampling all over the scout archetype, which is what these changes seem to indicate initially. <div></div>

[Miral]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Miral wrote:</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Yes we know wards are borked, pretty sure thats part of the balancing act coming up within the next week or two</FONT><BR></P> <P>3) tower shields arent all that great... their big, bulky, ugly, and usually have crappy stats. a tiny bit higher block chance, but not much.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>Not to mention a helluva lot more mitigation on them.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Shields do NOT have mitigation, they have shield factor, which is avoidance</FONT></P> <P>5) yeah, thats pretty much what this crappy patch was put in to remove. nevermind the fact that paladins can solo green epics, so long as a guardian cant tank the other epics with relative ease.</P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>As many others have pointed out, why in the hell would I(a SK) waste my time leading an epic mob around for god only knows how long, to get crap xp and crap loot.  Face it, any mob that CAN be soloed, isnt worth killing as it is.  I would rather be able to go tank the worthwhile epics, or go lay waste to mobs like warlocks and wizards do.  I can take a level 40 warlock out and just destroy Stag deer in EF.  They drop body loot and chests fairly often, making it very easy to collect some money.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Epic mobs can drop epic loot. Epic loot can be very very good. Imagine a high level paladin farming full sets of epic loot that cons orange to his alt... oy, talk about twinked...</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Miral on <SPAN class=date_text>04-15-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:04 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by Miral on <SPAN class=date_text>04-15-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:08 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Miral on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 AM</span>

[Boli32]

<font color="#ffff00">"I dono to me it seems paladins would be the supreme choice...  I mean, theyre pretty much a guardian with heals and wards and free jboots that they cna wear without sacrificing an armor slot...... yeah they get a whole 1% less block chance with the best shields, big whooper."</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00"> "Epic mobs can drop epic loot. Epic loot can be very very good. Imagine a high level paladin farming full sets of epic loot that cons orange to his alt... oy, talk about twinked..." <font color="#ffffff"> Whatever you may say and think, Paladins as they stand now are BALANCED... not overpowered, not underpowered... BALANCED <b>On Taunting: </b> Warrior taunts, far outstrip crusader taunts, there is no need to discuss this this is a a FACT. Berserkers in particular pull the agro off a taunting paladin on his dps and hate generation alone, if a warrior wants to gain the agro off a crusader, he hits a taunt once and they all run over to him. A crusader will use his two taunts, a couple of buffs a ward and a heal and maybe just maybe  one of the mob might come back to him. Warriors > Crusaders in Taunting<b> </b> <b>On Stats: </b> Take a similar leveled warrior (note warriors berserkers as well) and place them side by side with a crusader if they had EXACTLY the same equipment, were the same race etc. warriors will have more health. Add into the fact warriors are able to use tower shields over kite shiields and only in very rare circumstances does a kite shield beat a tower shield for stats. Again warriors win out against crusaders in stats That doesn't even take into account any class abilities just on pure unbuffed states, they have more health, more mitigation and better avoidance. </font></font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff">Warriors > Crusaders in stats <b>On Buffs: </b>Do I really need to explain that a guardian has better buffs for tanking than a paladin? -  I have never felt victimised for that... it is just a fact of eq2... guardians have better buffs </font></font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff"> </font></font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff"><b>On Tanking in General: </b>Paladins have said many times that we can tank to the EQUIVILENT LEVEL as guardians many times... and this is true, but only in groups and you'd better hope for a short fight. We make up for our DISADVANTAGES (yes we are disadvantaged guardians) by use of our other abilities... but this is by no means a certainty, we have to heal continually taunt nuke to keep some resemblance of dps up to keep the mob. Its hard but it can be done. On the other shoe guardians can easily go off to make a cup of tea on really long fights. and that is where warriors win out on crusaders, we burn through power... a LOT of power. Something that illustratets how much paladins are lower in tanking ability on a stats for stats basis is easily shown by reading the forums, on of the most common topics on the guardian forums is "should I dual wield when I tank in order to get better dps"? what results is normally a lengthy discussion on the hate generating effect vs the need for the healer to heal you more often. On the paldin board if the question "shoould I use my two-hander when tanking" comes up... the answer is usually just a straight: "no, not a chance. 1h/shield -> tank. 2h -> offtank". I'm not saying paladins are bad tanks by any sense of the word... I'm just saying that in a pure stats by stat comparison guardians beat us hands down, and they do it without even trying. Crusaders ACTIVILY TANK, we have to pay attention and a fizzile in the wrong place could spell doom for the entire group. And now onto our supposedly "templar like abilities" <b>On Wards: </b> Read the small print... long recasts (subject to interrupts) a spell (fizziiles) and costs a LOT of power to protect against UNMITIGATED damage.  at best it will protect you against one hit. - and then it is gone... in solo terms: completely useless. BUT if we loose the agro the best spell to help bring the mob back... loose the mob to the healer - the healer turns  into the intended target - hit ward... ward falls on healer giving them an extra second... and more importtantly generates a lot of hate... 9/10 we get agro back unless the healer does somehting stupid like try to heal themselves Summery: Wards certainly not the be all and end of all soling abilities it does NOT make us immune to hits or anything, it will if we are lucky save ONE hit from landing on us but the power costs and casting time FAR outweigh the benifits, I have never had anyone complain when I throw them a ward and regain the agro. <b>On Heals: </b> Yes we get heals whoop de do! there are stories abounding how paladins can be the holy grail of classes, tanking and healing all in the same bag... well I'm afraid this isn't true - and <i>certinaly not true</i> when we are tanking. You try and administer morphine to yourself when someone repeatadly punches you in the face... go on I dare you. the true of the matter is... when we fight mobs we really <i>need</i> to heal with to stand any sort of chance... you'll be lucky to get a heal off first time. invariablly 2 out of every 3 heals fails (interupts, fizzles stiffles whatever), sure there are greys and green we can and do indeed heal ourselves to top up our health... but compare that to guardians<i> who don't even get hit by them in the first place</i>. Heals are what make paladins work, its the only thing we have and is integral to us as avoidance is to a monk. Heals are CERTAINLY not a bonus or a free thing... we certinaly never use them to show off or anything we use them becasue we HAVE TO to tank any sort of mobs. When is the last time a guardian was pwned by a group of greens. I was wasted twice this morning when I was fighting spelling casting mobs... one stiffle and a few bad interupt I was toast, tanking and playing as a paldin leave little room for error. <b>On Nukes: </b>Yes, we do indeed "nuke", but then warriors get many more combat arts, plus they can use ranged attack, but we can't... Nukes are like it or lump it paladin basic attacks.. they  sure look flash and we do have some nice spells... but when is the last time you have seen a "wild swing" interupted or resisted? <b>In summery: </b> We can take damage, but not as well as a warrior We can avoid hits, but not as well as a warrior / brawler We can mitigate damage, but not as much as a warrior We can Heal, but not as much as a priest We can Ward, but certinaly nothing compared to a shaman We can nuke nowhere near a mage We can taunts, by far from the best We can do "everything"... but if we are tanking we will have trouble casting a simple spell, and next time you see a paladin nuking /healing / wardin like mad... just watch how fast his man goes down. Do not try to demean an already balanced class because of a few "stories" you have heard with no evidence to back them up. I have soloed an epic ONCE... it was a scion and I was lvl 32 (i.e. well into the grey) and he nearly killed me last time I checked chested didn't drop off greys.</font></font><div></div>

[Sunfire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT size=1>Tamian wrote:<BR></FONT> <P><BR><FONT size=1>I disagree:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>1- Stat caps are game breaking in regards to longevity.  You must remember that while casual players pay for the game, its the other minority that is in it for the long run and pushes the game to its maximum.  The 'hardcore' player strives on eeking out every bit he or she can of their character.  If you start imposing caps, there will be no reason for one to 'progress' their character and thus will just move on to a different game.  While there is a point of diminishing returns, any progression a person can feel is what keeps them motiviated.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>2- Solo game is great now, but hate to say this is a MMO.  While I do not want to see solo/small group (read duo/trio) encounter go away, they can not be setup in the way they are with the current changes.  There is very little group (heroic) encounters now and where they are located, there are very few spawns dominated by dozens of solo/small group mobs.  This creates the exact oppiste problem solo players were having (group mobs arround solo mobs) and needs to be rectifiyed.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>3- SK's need alot more owrk then just power and taunt.  Our LT's are usless, our Wards can funtionally kill us, our power/damage blows, and our mitigation/avoidance ratio to other fighters is horrible.  Please, your a solo'r and I respect that .. but you must understand the impact of all these changes being proposed on a character higher level/different content then you.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>4- DPS balance is terriable and honestly dont think you either play those classes or dont understand the impact all of the changes will have on them.  Scouts, especially with the changes, are getting even more gimped in their soloablity and the damage bonus being proposed favors fighers . thus narrowing the dps between the two groups.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>5) 'Occasional' is not the right word.  Guardians should not  have the highest HP, highest Mitigation, Highest Block, same Parry, and (where the issue is) highest dodge.  Even buffed this should not be the case.  They need to migrate to a arch type/agi point table system that gives other classes a higher return (especially crusaders, monks and scouts) per point of agi.  Even the limited results from test show that a priest is light armor with 100 less agi and 6 levels lower has higher mitigation -AND- avoidance then a scout .. thats bad bad bad.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>6) Your compairson to LU7 for mages is based upon what information?  None of the combat changes impact that .. so Im not sure what your refering to . as for healer 'healing a mage' .. the mage should not have agro in the first place.  If you do, thats your skill not the game (this is not being mean, just fact).</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>7) As mentioned in 5 and the rest, the remaining fighters in the correct balancing situation will gain some ground on the Guardian and hopefully the Guardian will gain a higher level of mitigation/block in return for less dodge .. we shall see .. thats what many of the current threads an concerns are about.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>My 2 cp<BR></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>1 - Stat caps can be made to scale with level - they are not game breaking when done correctly.  Buff caps were always a part of almost evey MMO out there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 - Fine so you want soloing tweaked down - you dont get how this will make meaningful soloing impossible for over half the classes in the game after 2 months of changes designed to do the contrary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3 - Um, I said SK's needed help and gave 2 examples - I didnt have room for details, there are plenty of threads.  This patch isnt the help youre looking for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4 - I do play a wizard and understand their problems acutely, scouts arent the only ones who will virtually lose the ability to solo with this patch which was my point.  As problematic as many scout classes are now they will still be desired over mages who will be nothing but 1-shot liabilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5 - Ok I made the point about guardians more tactfully - and your scout numbers are exaggerated badly, but no arguments they need better mitigation.  This patch will leave theirs the same or lower it while dropping some priest's mitigation but up to 50% - is that the solution you want?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6 - They're based on my playing on test and posts from other mages and priests on the test boards.  Mage's get aggro sometimes no matter how good they are - in case you didnt notice a little something xtra was put in with LU6 - mobs now break for casters faster and even have a special voice-over for it.  Examples "That's Magic.   Get the Book".  "Stay close to the mage, VERY close".  Increasing caster aggro and turning them into Orc Pawns is not a sane series of changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7 - Fixing overbuffing is not a Guardian specific problem and in fact will worsen the imbalance between tanks if done this way.  It will lock them more rigidly into their base stats and abilities in which Guardians are far superior removing the benefit of many of the buffs which formerly could level the tanking field.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by SunfireII on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 PM</span>

[Tami]

<P><BR>1- Stat Caps: When a player has reached their min/max due to stat caps, what do you expect to 'drive' their progression?  There is already limited 50/Raid play right now .. the ability to eeek out that extra .01% avoidance or 50 power is what keeps players interested in the long term.  Now soft caps, where you have some but diminishing returns, still gives the ability to eeek out char progression .. and are a very different beast.</P> <P>2- I dont want the act of soloing to be anything that you dont want .. what I do want is the Mob distribution equalized and logical vs the mess that is now.  When a zone has very little herioc (group) mobs .. spread thin across it .. with masses of solo/small groups intermixed then the ability to enjoy the zone as a group and get a good level of xp in becomes difficult.</P> <P>3- SK's need more then just a little help .. and thus my response.</P> <P>4- See my other posts re the STR vs AGI issue in regards to offesnive DB for scouts .. you might understand a bit more what im saying.</P> <P>5- My scout numbers came from what exists on Test today .. not posted by me, but logged into test to confirm the issue.  My issue was not with the 'numbers' its with the logic that those numbers were generated.  A scout, regardless of armor, should have a higher innate avoidance then a priest -AND- get a better per point return on AGI in regards to avoidance.  When a priest, 6 levels lower, can don Light Armor and acheive higher mitigation and higher avoidance there is a problem.</P> <P>6- I cant speak to that .. what can speak to is the known issues with Taunt .. does this come into play? Not sure.  But your refreence was to LU7, not 6 which you are now speaking of.</P> <DIV>7- There is no way, and we all have to eventually come to terms with it, that classes will have a complete balance.  I constantly use the Gaurdian versus Monk example of two tanks .. one using mitigation and the other avoidance .. as their primary defensive means.  While over the course of 5 min, they will both take the same amount of damage (+/- random distirbution) .. howeve r.. the later (dodge based) will experiance a factor called spike damage which is not something a raid is willing to deal with (or can in many cases).  You can see where this leads no?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warriors .. built to take damage ... Monks .. built to avoid damage .. Crusaders .. mix of the two (more leaning toward warriros) with the difference made up in spells.</DIV>